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The domestic minister has a settler planned to complete in 14 turns. So where should our second city go?
Here is a map of proposed city sites.
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/2241/civ4screenshot0216ie9.th.jpg (http://img82.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0216ie9.jpg)

Site A: Commerce city. We get an immediate 2:commerce: for trade routes.

Site B: Production city. 8:hammers: at size 1, and 14:hammers: at size 4! It won't grow past size 4 for a long, long time - but with that production it doesn't really matter.

Site C: Compromise city. We get floodplains to start, and after borders expand we have copper too. It doesn't give as much commerce as A or production as B in the short term.

Site D: Great Person farm. This will be a powerful city later in the game, but we can't work the fish yet.

Civil Service Slingshot

Memphus has proposed a build order that will get us the CS slingshot in 1360BC. To achieve that, he requests some help from the other ministries.

Imperial Expansion: Build the second city at site A.

Defense Department: Move Dark Puma to site A within 14 turns, to defend until the Oracle is finished.

There may be good reasons to deny his request, but we will lose a couple turns on the CS slingshot in each case.

Will a few turns hurt that much for us for the CS slingshot?

I am wondering, what would be the point of having high production so early in the game? I am thinking that getting the slingshot would be the best thing for us, now wouldn't it? So that would mean that A would be our best choice for our second city, with B being our third city.

Will a few turns hurt that much for us for the CS slingshot?

At this stage in the game yes. Every single turn counts, That is why DaveMcW looked at toehr ways to achieve the slingshot faster, but found that he could improve only by a couple of turns, but at the cost of the settler. Normally this wouldn't be a bad idea but if we lose out and don't build the settler then we are really pooched.

As it stands we get the settler out then spend 10 turns building the Oracle which isn't that many turns of investment for a potentially huge payoff

I am still keeping my eye on the other teams production and there hasn't been a jump anywhere yet (indicating that Kingkong/Ghandi/Loco) has started a Wonder (they are our only competetion as they founded Buddism)

I am wondering, what would be the point of having high production so early in the game? I am thinking that getting the slingshot would be the best thing for us, now wouldn't it? So that would mean that A would be our best choice for our second city, with B being our third city

Yes it would be :evil: which is why I am hopeing the other two departments can see the light ;)

The advantage of a high production city in the early game is to make a military powerhouse which only produces units. However as we can see that our neighbours arn't very close we have some breathing room.

Finally

DaveMcW You forgot to mention the other option:

Send the Settler out undefended :mischief: seeing as border will have already expanded and there is only 1.5 turns outside of our borders :eek:

There will be real barbarians by the time the settler is out, and we can't rely on our culture to scare them away. The new city will be defenseless for about 10 turns until it can build a warrior.

The Defense Department is ready and willing to render full assistance for the greater glory of Epsilonia.

From Dark Puma's position at the moment it will take 6 turns to get to the Capital, so what I am planning to do is to swing left, picking up the unknown there, and then reaching north, afterwhich (or before which if needed) he picks up the settler.

Remember also that there is a lion roaming about just south of the Capital, so whether or not there is barbarian warriors the lion would prevent us from sending out the settler alone.

@ Memphus, the last bit was very cheeky of you. :lol:

The Defense Department is ready and willing to render full assistance for the greater glory of Epsilonia.

From Dark Puma's position at the moment it will take 6 turns to get to the Capital, so what I am planning to do is to swing left, picking up the unknown there, and then reaching north, afterwhich (or before which if needed) he picks up the settler.


Thank you :salute: very much.

now not to be cheeky here again :mischief: but the Warrior doesn't need to escort the settler so much as meet him there :goodjob: (the settler needs to be moving 2 squares a turn)

Would this allow us to swing far enough east and pick up that hut :evil: ???

The Hut behind the mountain range would take quite a while to get to, especially when we remember that he has to get back too, so it would be much longer than the building and settling of the settler would take.

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/8278/whatac1.th.jpg (http://img71.imageshack.us/my.php?image=whatac1.jpg)

Well actually if you have a look below (don'tforget everything in the south there is jungle so 1 move = 2

and right now we will have 4 turns for a warrior followed by 9 turns for a settler = 13 turns + 3 movement turns

You will see that the warrior can meet the settler (actually he will get there one turn early ;) )

Not to mention we woudl have a better understanding of our south

But this descision is out of my area

[stares at numbers in amazement] The AI does it to me again! I stand corrected. :)

The area that the warrior is in now is for the most part unexplored, and there might be some stuff that we want to know and base our plans on, so how about this plan? This has no loss of turns too (yay for the forest II promotion!), so this way we can have our cake and eat half of it too! :p

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/1452/whattt6.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=whattt6.jpg)

I admire your number crunching, but I think we're going to get delayed by barbarians at some point. Don't cut it too close. ;)

@DaveMcW: Actually we had 3 turns to spare :lol:

And now with the new plan we still have 3 since if you look at it closely you get to the same poitn at the same time just a different route...Who knows maybe we'll pop Metal Casting from the hut :evil: ;)

"number crunching"? Whose the one who makes the huge charts about what kinds of territory, how much production and so? :p

I'd change my instruction post, except for the realization that my brilliance as a military tactician (not) has the warrior on the same initial path! :lol:

Now that we've met Piffle, and suspect a land bridge to explore their lands do we want to divert Dark Puma and have him explore Piffle, or are me going to move ahead with our plans and have him continue on with our plan to have him guard our new city?

Exploreing their territory while they haven't built it up yet could be important, but as I really haven't played multiplayer much (ie the PBEM here is my second multiplayer game ever for me!), is it worth diverting Dark Puma and having to spend the hammers on more defense?

Personally I would vote for attempting to explore Piffle as I think the early recond before it is build up is very helpful this early in the game. It dose force us to sacrafice to defense though but personally, not having run the numbers, my gut thiks its the better thing.

But im the newbie so what do I know.

Well if it was just an issue of spending more on defense then I would also be all for exploring new territory, but the fact is we are alreayd cutting it very close with the Oracle at that date, Building another warrior to escort that settler will burn 3 turns from our date.

Now don't get me wrong, early exploration is very important, but trust me if there land mass to the south looks like ours to the north, then thier ability to get a choke (i.e. city) so we can't explore has to be roughly the same capacity as ours.

I would predict that as long as we get a unit there by 1 A.D. we should be able to get in and explore. (which will give us more accurate data of the current area)

Furthermore a main reason for exploration is to pop huts, if they have travelled up this little land bridge then they have gotten all the huts in the south.

As far as intelligence goes, oncce we discover paper it is up to our foreign minister to get us intel of thier lands :goodjob:


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Now if it was me and this was single player I would do the following:

Pop the hut and then begin to explore to the south ssend the settler out undefended as there is only 1 move where we can lose him to an animal.
As for Pfifle being in the area they wont' attack this early on as Wars in MTDG are usually bad news for all.

I strongly protest sending our settler out undefended. :p

It's not one turn; it will be 10 turns before we can build another warrior to defend the city. During those 10 turns we are vulnerable to non-animal barbarians and a woodsman II warrior controlled by humans.


Would you consider building a warrior AFTER the settler but BEFORE the Oracle? I still don't like it, but at least the window for disaster is smaller.

Would you consider building a warrior AFTER the settler but BEFORE the Oracle? I still don't like it, but at least the window for disaster is smaller.

This can be done, with the intent that Shadow Warrior will continue to exlpore to the south after he pops the hut? (I.E. The settler will go out unescorted but a Warrior will be comming shortly there after? 2 turns)

If he (Shadow Warrior) is comming back anyways (to meet the settler while a new warrior is being built) Then I would rather build the Oracle first.

Hi,

I don't think sending Dark Puma to explore is a good idea. Sending out the settler undefended is out of question, and delaying the Oracle in any way is madness in my mind. We are playing a huge gambit here already, trying a CS slingshot vs. human opponents. Anything that delays this should be avoided.

I fully agree with Memphus' analysis that we will have enough time to explore their lands later, except for his statement that they will surely have popped all their huts, seeing as how we haven't done so ourselves... :p

-Kylearan

Alright, that's fine with me, just throwing options out there so that every body's aware of the possiblities of what can be done.

Edit: So this is the plan then?

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/1175/whattf3.jpg

@Lost_Civ - your counting seems to go from 1 to 3 in the screenshot.
Am I missing something?

EDIT: and why are you thinking we're not going to site A?
:confused:

Yeah, aparently my counting is messed up today.

I stoped there becuase that was what I thought were doing bacause of this map:
http://img428.imageshack.us/img428/743/cityplancm9dv4.jpg

I do a better map then for Site A then.

Edit: right after as Memphus did it...

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3817/whattr6.jpg

These Are those Numbers you're looking for General :salute:

Turn 50

Shadow Tiger (96HP) has the chance to pop a hut on grassland. I vote we let him heal before popping it. :)

We eliminate a 5% chance of popping healing, which we don't want anyway.
We gain a permanent 3% boost in survival if the hut is good.
We gain an even bigger chance of survival if the hut has barbarians. I haven't run a simulation yet, but I would guess it's about 10% vs. 2 barbarians.

Okay, fine with me if that's what's wanted, though IIRC it was you that didn't want to heal the final bit. :p

Hi,

I'm for letting him heal a turn, too. The argument that we eliminate the chance of popping healing is a very good one IMHO (didn't know huts can do that - looks like I'm always making sure my non-scout units are healed when popping huts in my private games... :lol: ).

-Kylearan

For the record I am also for healing :) , but will be very disapointed if another team is on the other side of that hut and pops it the turn after we heal :p

I was thinking more of other huts that we might miss, but it doesn't really matter since the orders have already been changed. ;)

Who has there fingers crossed to pop CoL this turn ?? I do


Context: remarks made concerning the up-coming hut-pop. I don't know if this is important to consider, but if we wind up popping Code of Laws, will we lose beakers already invested in it's research? I'm sure the benefits outweign the risks (cost of the lost research), but I felt it prudent to bring it up.

Context: remarks made concerning the up-coming hut-pop. I don't know if this is important to consider, but if we wind up popping Code of Laws, will we lose beakers already invested in it's research? I'm sure the benefits outweign the risks (cost of the lost research), but I felt it prudent to bring it up.

We would loose beakers that we had already invested, however being the most expensive tech we could currently research it would still be a huge advantage (not to mention then we could prduce the Oracle full force)

Not to mention the 4 other teams would be quite perturbed that someone founded it that soon (I.E. they would assume oracle would be built in a turn or two ;) )

It's not possible to pop CoL.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3774528#post3774528