This thread is about the nature of units Upgrade and "usefulness" at different points during the game.


Yes, the Time has come i feel to retire the warrior unit. This is not to say from the game. Nono. But i'm sick to tears of my cities continously trying to build them....during peace time........when they've built buildings to produce BETTER units.

I understand its a "quick way" of having a nifty unit in a few turns. But this strikes me as a bit of a balance issue. IF you have a civ, whos VERY good at making gold. Then all they need to do is make warrior units and upgrade them constantly. Whiles production powerhouses like the dwarves will actually take FAR LONGER to actually produce the equivilant unit.

Obsolesence also directly deals with flavor. I imagine a group of young fresh recruits in an order city, who are being put together to form a military regiment. The seargent at arms looks over his troops and says "Men.....today will be your first day of training, I want you to select from the wrack of weaopns, your choice in clubs and loin cloth." (Or spears and leather, whatever, dpending on race).
One solider-to-be looks to the other and says "did he say clubs and loin clothes? The enemy has chariots, armor, crossbowmen and i swear i saw some sort of Ogre thing!"

I just see it as fairly unlikely that one could convince new recruits that they were getting trained (produced) with clubs and loin clothes, only then to pay some annonymous military advisor/merchant to upgrade them IN A YEAR.

IM not against upgrading. I'm not against the warrior being built in later stages of the game. I'm not even really against the manipulation of funds to pull this sort of trick. But I am generally against the notion that "you can build better units than that, you stupid city, why are you building the warrior?"

The warrior should be obsolete when copper comes around. Now, just like in vanilla civ, if a city has not the resources (or buildings) required, they should still be able to build said warrior. But later on, after meeting those requirements, they ought not be built anymore. If one wants to "use the system" then one will have to purposely chose not to make upgraded buildings in a few cities, in order to have the ability to make warriors, who then can travel, (taking some turns) to a better city to get properly upgraded and outfitted.

This should be true of all the major lines, with the exception of religious units and POSSIBLY recon units (each having its own flavor).

My second justification is this. Once you start getting to the use of national units and golems and very uberized units, the use of the common foot solider is relegated to being either A) en masse attacks, B) raids and skirmishing, or C) population control. One does not need 7 options of these three types of purposes. Since most combat (later in the game) will be preformed by very cool units, lesser units should be removed from the list of options.
(I think if i remember right there is somewhere between 15-21 possible national units one could have simultaiously considering 3 of each type)

15-21 national units is enough for me to conquer most civs with, and prolly more than one. The only thing that would stop such a monster army is another monster army, perhaps coupled with magic wielders.

More into the "useless" catagory, is the fact that warriors and other base-line units are useless (outside the upgrade trick). A mercenary unit, while not particularly strong, is a WONDERFUL little unit to put on "explore". If you declare war with a neighbor, all your mercs will suddenly pour into your neighbors lands (without your having to tell them to) and start pillaging and attacking the weaker units they feel they can defeat (i've even gotten some unintended cities doing this). The warrior........cannot even function properly as a small-time raid unit when the merc comes along.

So I plead and beg with the designers. Make my unit selection screen a little more tidy, and allow units to become obsolete when their times pass.

Units: Warrior (useless by the time copper is used), Archer (Useless by the time bowyers, and potentially crossbowmen are used, horsemen (mercs and horse archers),

-Qes

P.S. The same should be true of swordmen when macemen come along, etc. Each obsoleting to its superior. Because in the end, "basic" or "non-national" units become fodder and skirmish material only. And it doesnt really matter if its a warrior v another warrior or maceman, its fodder v fodder and the "winner" will likely get killed by a bigger unit anyway.

Every unit becomes obsolete when you can build all of the things it upgrades to. If you are unable to build one of its upgrades then it remains in the build list.

So obsoletion is already in place for all of the units, its just more dynamic then just stopping at a specific tech.

Every unit becomes obsolete when you can build all of the things it upgrades to. If you are unable to build one of its upgrades then it remains in the build list.

So obsoletion is already in place for all of the units, its just more dynamic then just stopping at a specific tech.

Is there any "other" way of cleaning up the screen to reduce the options? I noticed a Unit in there that was "impossible" to ever make...for anyone...ever. Which means the warrior will never be obsolete, because he can upgrade to it. "Sir not appearing in this mod" or something. (I admit i chuckled...and still do every time i think of his name). But still. Couldnt it be better to.."reduce" his upgradeablity? Yes, versatility is important, but its a bit cluttered.

:-D :-) :-| :- / :-(

-Qes

Is there any "other" way of cleaning up the screen to reduce the options? I noticed a Unit in there that was "impossible" to ever make...for anyone...ever. Which means the warrior will never be obsolete, because he can upgrade to it. "Sir not appearing in this mod" or something. (I admit i chuckled...and still do every time i think of his name). But still. Couldnt it be better to.."reduce" his upgradeablity? Yes, versatility is important, but its a bit cluttered.

:-D :-) :-| :- / :-(

-Qes

Warriors dont upgrade to Mr Not Appearing. I use him as an upgrade on some units to make sure they never obsolete (like disciples).

Warriors dont upgrade to Mr Not Appearing. I use him as an upgrade on some units to make sure they never obsolete (like disciples).

What all can warriors upgrade to? (And archers, why will i produce archers when i can make crossbowmen?)

It seems to me, its primarily the footsoldier line, and desciples? Or am i dreaming again.
-Qes

What all can warriors upgrade to? (And archers, why will i produce archers when i can make crossbowmen?)

It seems to me, its primarily the footsoldier line, and desciples? Or am i dreaming again.
-Qes

Warriors upgrade to archers, axemen and the drown. So you have to be able to build all three of those before the warrior will dissapear. For non-OO civs this means the warrior sticks around forever since they can't build the drown.

I don't know if it's still there, but I remember that there was an issue because Warriors could upgrade to The Drown, so that they would never get obsolete for non-OO civs.

edit: beaten to it... damn ! :D

Warriors upgrade to archers, axemen and the drown. So you have to be able to build all three of those before the warrior will dissapear. For non-OO civs this means the warrior sticks around forever since they can't build the drown.

I've no retort to that. I want both. I want the warrior to be able to upgrade to drown (it makes a lot of sense) but be obsolete if you've not decided to go OO.

Wait.......it is possible to Eliminate the link between warriors and drown, and then create a duplicate unit (also called a warrior) that only OO civs get? THAT warrior would then be upgradeable to the Drown.

This would mean if you didnt go OO, when you'd upgrade to swordmen/axeman and that'd be it, or archers, etc.

If you were an OO civ perhaps it would PRECLUDE you from making the normal warrior (to save on confusion), and you could make the OO warrior. The OO warrior could upgrade to the drown and archers, etc. Just like a regular warrior.

WOuld that bit of trickery work?

-Qes

P.S. Maybe call the OO Warrior a "thrawl" so you dont get coding complications. But in all function it'd be the same.

I guess it wouldn't work : warriors you'd build before switching to OO wouldn't be able to upgrade to Drown, whereas warriors you've built after switching would still be able ton convert to OO even after you switch back to another religion.

The trick is that there is no such thing as a real "OO civ". A civ is "OO" only so long as it is its state religion.

I've no retort to that. I want both. I want the warrior to be able to upgrade to drown (it makes a lot of sense) but be obsolete if you've not decided to go OO.

Wait.......it is possible to Eliminate the link between warriors and drown, and then create a duplicate unit (also called a warrior) that only OO civs get? THAT warrior would then be upgradeable to the Drown.

This would mean if you didnt go OO, when you'd upgrade to swordmen/axeman and that'd be it, or archers, etc.

If you were an OO civ perhaps it would PRECLUDE you from making the normal warrior (to save on confusion), and you could make the OO warrior. The OO warrior could upgrade to the drown and archers, etc. Just like a regular warrior.

WOuld that bit of trickery work?

-Qes

P.S. Maybe call the OO Warrior a "thrawl" so you dont get coding complications. But in all function it'd be the same.

Yes, but then when you converted to the OO you wouldn't be able to sac your warrirors to make drown because they would all be the non-OO warrior type (that oyu made before the conversion).

Yes, but then when you converted to the OO you wouldn't be able to sac your warrirors to make drown because they would all be the non-OO warrior type (that oyu made before the conversion).

Yes, i realize that. But wouldnt you think most people either PLAN on going OO or PLAN on going something else?

All im saying is that we could change who the onus is on. If its on OO players, they're not going to mind TERRIBLY, if they're given the opportunity to make different warriors that might upgrade. AND their reg. warriors would still get to upgrade to axeman, etc. So their not losing those promotions from early gaming.

And it would mean the 80% of the world (with 5 religions) who didnt take OO, then have a slightly cleaner palatte.

Does this fly?
-Qes

It seems like otherwise were going through a lot of effort to preserve the ability of the OO to keep a few promoted units (which they'd get anyway in other forms.) PLUS They get a unit called a THRAWL! :D :-) :-|

Remember the Calabim as well. They for example want to build their Warrior to the end of the game to feed it to vampires.

Remember the Calabim as well. They for example want to build their Warrior to the end of the game to feed it to vampires.

Again, just a "different" warrior from........wait they get bloodpets.

They dont even get regular warriors.

Its the OO were talkin about mostly here. If the bloodpets can upgrade to drown, it doesnt bother me, since the calabim would make these till the end anyway.

But I think were trying to love up the OO at the expense of some tidyness. :P.

They'll not be able to transfer promotions from warrior to drown, but they'll still be able to get promotions in axeman, macemen, or archers and up...so they're not "out" as it were.

And, they could still BUILD they're version of teh warrior (its still viable when the drown are running around as a cheaper unit), and that personal OO Warrior or "thrawl" as im starting to call it. WOULD be upgradeable. So it'd be only like what. at MOST? 6-7 units that'd not be upgradeable to a VERY specific unit? When I've gone OO i've only ever had 3 (at most) warriors with promotions, i had a lot of warriors that had none (not a big deal, since they wont get built anymore, with the advant of the Thrall) And the ones id itch to promote, i could save till i get axemen or archery.

This wont upset OO players.
-Qes

Yes, but then when you converted to the OO you wouldn't be able to sac your warrirors to make drown because they would all be the non-OO warrior type (that oyu made before the conversion).

What about if OO temples gave warriors (And only warriors) the ability to transform into Drown? There'd be no direct upgrade link. The building would give all warriors the ability to upgrade, but if you clicked it, youd lose some money (if possible, and equivilant to the normal cost of upgrading a warrior to drown).

-Qes

I will upset me, for a start : in my last 2 games I didn't have to rely much on melee units, so most of my warriors ended up as Drowns, which in turn were upgraded to Stygians. In one game I had developped recon units a lot and used Assassins against other melee units, while in the other game I ended up using a lot of mounted units protected by archers and magic users.

All in all, the only "Melee units" thing I really missed in these games was the City Raider promotion, but I've compensated this some other ways : I always rush to the Baron (and I've always got him so far... the AI research pattern must have changed at some time because I now often miss Typhoid Mary -- which would never happen before --, but I still almost always get a clear shot at the Baron even when not playing the Fellowship... can't say if that's because of me really rushing for him or the AI not trying hard enough) so I always get a lot of City Raider werewolves. And in most cases, siege units and magic users could take down city defenses hard enough for my 7str Stygian Guards to manage well enough through the wars I ran into. Using Saverous and Hemah a lot also contribute to make standard Melee units less needed.

I will upset me, for a start : in my last 2 games I didn't have to rely much on melee units, so most of my warriors ended up as Drowns, which in turn were upgraded to Stygians. In one game I had developped recon units a lot and used Assassins against other melee units, while in the other game I ended up using a lot of mounted units protected by archers and magic users.

All in all, the only "Melee units" thing I really missed in these games was the City Raider promotion, but I've compensated this some other ways : I always rush to the Baron (and I've always got him so far... the AI research pattern must have changed at some time because I now often miss Typhoid Mary -- which would never happen before --, but I still almost always get a clear shot at the Baron even when not playing the Fellowship... can't say if that's because of me really rushing for him or the AI not trying hard enough) so I always get a lot of City Raider werewolves. And in most cases, siege units and magic users could take down city defenses hard enough for my 7str Stygian Guards to manage well enough through the wars I ran into. Using Saverous and Hemah a lot also contribute to make standard Melee units less needed.

Well if you dont "need" them, then im right, you wont be upset if you cant upgrade maybe 3-5 units to drown, and youre forced to build another 2-5 units and upgrade those, and then act normally.

If it doesnt affect you terribly, since melee wasnt too necessary, then the "inconvienence" isnt one.

-Qes

You know, I like it better when I'm the one to say if I'm affected/upset by something :D

(no offense, right ;))

You know, I like it better when I'm the one to say if I'm affected/upset by something :D

(no offense, right ;))

Lol, ya, das true.

But still, you'd be upset if the units you dont really use anyway couldnt upgrade? If thats true, what about when you dont go for OO, and your ciites keep making warriors that never obsolete?
-Qes

Well... surprisingly, I just don't care much when warriors hang around in the units list :D

I agree that the units/buildings list soon gets hard to manage, and I do end up spending too much time looking for the button I want to press when one of my cities finishes its building queue... but then again, I'm not sure removing a few icons will really help. For that sort of things to be efficient, the team would have to make sure that there is rarely more than, say, 10-15 units and 10-15 buildings available at a the same time. I guess it would be something feasible, and if that's their choice well I'm all for it. But it's not necessarily the only way to make managing city production queue easier.

For example, there could be the possibility of grouping units and buildings in a more intuitive way (if I undersand well, they are currently grouped by order of appearance in XML files, which is the sorting order in the base Excel file used to generate units/buildings properties, and that one is roughly sorted by alphabetical order with the occasional tweaking for unique units and the such), say all melee units together followed by all archers, recons etc.

If the city screen can be modified (from what I've read, most interface screens can), the three (basically useless) buttons right after the units/buildings scrollbar that allow fast scrolling to units, buildings and wonders may be removed and replaced with filter buttons or combo boxes that allow displaying only a particular type of units/buildings (eg: only melee units, only religion buildings, only wonders...) instead of merely scrolling (fast scrolling is good if the list is small enough... for FfH, what I actually miss is a tool for filtering the list so it only shows those things I might be interested in).

Another possibility could be to add a simple button that expands the units/buildings list so it overlaps with the city tiles display. Along with sorting, this would allow having all buildable units/buildings on the screen and make it easier to pick something into. It would be even better if there was a single row for each units/building type, instead of the classic "fill the row and then \n to the next one" approach, so you could browse the list even faster when searching for a particular item.

That's all I can come up to at the moment, but I'm sure there are other possibliities to make the units & buildings list easier to scan into. That said, I'll repeat what I've said above : I'm afraid taking pains to occasionnaly remove a couple of items from the list won't be enough to make it really user-friendly.

Well... surprisingly, I just don't care much when warriors hang around in the units list :D

I agree that the units/buildings list soon gets hard to manage, and I do end up spending too much time looking for the button I want to press when one of my cities finishes its building queue... but then again, I'm not sure removing a few icons will really help. For that sort of things to be efficient, the team would have to make sure that there is rarely more than, say, 10-15 units and 10-15 buildings available at a the same time. I guess it would be something feasible, and if that's their choice well I'm all for it. But it's not necessarily the only way to make managing city production queue easier.

For example, there could be the possibility of grouping units and buildings in a more intuitive way (if I undersand well, they are currently grouped by order of appearance in XML files, which is the sorting order in the base Excel file used to generate units/buildings properties, and that one is roughly sorted by alphabetical order with the occasional tweaking for unique units and the such), say all melee units together followed by all archers, recons etc.

If the city screen can be modified (from what I've read, most interface screens can), the three (basically useless) buttons right after the units/buildings scrollbar that allow fast scrolling to units, buildings and wonders may be removed and replaced with filter buttons or combo boxes that allow displaying only a particular type of units/buildings (eg: only melee units, only religion buildings, only wonders...) instead of merely scrolling (fast scrolling is good if the list is small enough... for FfH, what I actually miss is a tool for filtering the list so it only shows those things I might be interested in).

Another possibility could be to add a simple button that expands the units/buildings list so it overlaps with the city tiles display. Along with sorting, this would allow having all buildable units/buildings on the screen and make it easier to pick something into. It would be even better if there was a single row for each units/building type, instead of the classic "fill the row and then \n to the next one" approach, so you could browse the list even faster when searching for a particular item.

That's all I can come up to at the moment, but I'm sure there are other possibliities to make the units & buildings list easier to scan into. That said, I'll repeat what I've said above : I'm afraid taking pains to occasionnaly remove a couple of items from the list won't be enough to make it really user-friendly.

Hey, im all for this, I just want a slightly easier (on the eyes as well) menu to select from. I feel OVERinundated with options. Kael himself said "More is worse" Now, i want changes and options to "flow" throughout the game. But any one point it'd be nice to be "limited" to a degree.

Its also sort of a "throw back" when your waging a wonderful crusade against the minions of the order, with their shiny irredecent armors, and my black brigades will rend them assunder, and then i find myself looking at a warrior one of my cities produced that slipped in under my radar. It...just "loses" something. Something precious and small in me dies a little.
-Qes

P.s. But just a little.

A thing to note about warriors and archers and upgrading. They rock!

Make a warrior, give it city raider promotions, then upgrade it to an archer, give it all the first strike promotions, then upgrade to ranger and you've got a mean go anywhere city destroying machine!(note: raging barbs gives great fodder for xp building)

I did suggest at some point that perhaps a system of tabs would tidy up the build options. Incidentally, how can anyone select build options from the city screen icons? I hate that screen - give me the list with the actual names on it every time!

mouse over gives name there though, though i admit i prefer the names list you get after building something

I did suggest at some point that perhaps a system of tabs would tidy up the build options. Incidentally, how can anyone select build options from the city screen icons? I hate that screen - give me the list with the actual names on it every time!

I am a fan of this "tabs" idea, but i still think that the warrior-drown situation can be solved. Either by the OO temple provding a method of turning warriors into drown (and eliminating the natural link) or by giving the OO their own unique warrior (thats identical in purpose) that would be upgradable, while again, severing the link between the normal warrior and the drown.

Less is more,
-Qes

... or by giving the OO their own unique warrior (thats identical in purpose) that would be upgradable, while again, severing the link between the normal warrior and the drown.
I agree with eliminating clutter and the chance the program will tell you you should build a warrior in the mid-late game. However, I don't think the idea of a unique warrior is palatable. Imagine building a bunch of those suckers as you go for the OO tech, then the religion is founded "in some distant land". Now you're stuck with warriors that can't upgrade to anything.

- Niilo

I agree with eliminating clutter and the chance the program will tell you you should build a warrior in the mid-late game. However, I don't think the idea of a unique warrior is palatable. Imagine building a bunch of those suckers as you go for the OO tech, then the religion is founded "in some distant land". Now you're stuck with warriors that can't upgrade to anything.

- Niilo

NOno, you could only build "thrawls" (as i've been calling them) if you were already OO. So, youd build your warriors, putzing along normally. IF you found OO, or merely convert to it (dont need to found it to be it) you then could build "thrawls" A thrawl is identical to a Warrior, except it can be upgraded to drown as well. A normal warrior would then only be able to upgrade to Archers, axeman, etc. This way, warriors will obsolete if you dont go OO, and if you do go OO, you'll still have a "cheap" warrior option if you dont want to take the time to actually build Drown.

The Downside of this, is that your warriors that you owned BEFORE you turned OO couldnt be upgraded to drown, and then utilize all their nice little promotions. I think this is negligable, considering that warriors A) dont live long, and B) the ones that do are rare, and while "yes I wanna keep him" a replacement of him isnt going to be that big of a deal.

I've also advocated for the idea that warriors dont upgrade into Drown, but instead the OO TEMPLES could offer all warrior units present in a OO city (with a temple) a promotion that would turn them into a drown. This seems more flavorful of an option. You bring your warriors to "drown" in the temple pools. Again, solves the obsolecence issue, but keeps the ability to have drown from warriors.

I think this second option is best, if its possible to make.
-Qes

That second option sounds cool, but I don't consider the first one an option. Through careful management of my warriors during the constant barbarian assault, I typically have very high level warriors when I'm ready to upgrade them. And I have yet to get into the tactic of building a weaker unit to immediately upgrade to something else, so that is not applicable to my play-style.

- Niilo

That second option sounds cool, but I don't consider the first one an option. Through careful management of my warriors during the constant barbarian assault, I typically have very high level warriors when I'm ready to upgrade them. And I have yet to get into the tactic of building a weaker unit to immediately upgrade to something else, so that is not applicable to my play-style.

- Niilo


The more i look at it the more I like the second option too. But i dont know if its possible to do. Kael will have to make that call.
-Qes

The more i look at it the more I like the second option too. But i dont know if its possible to do. Kael will have to make that call.
-Qes

Yes, it is very easy to do. I'll add the ability to "drown" warriors at OO temples and remove the upgrade.

Really? Sweet! I think that adds more flavour.

- Niilo

Yes, it is very easy to do. I'll add the ability to "drown" warriors at OO temples and remove the upgrade.

YAY! Less clutter! :worship:
-Qes