Ok. Here goes my attempt at throwing out an idea for an SG. Those of us in the HN01 - Power of Religion thread have enjoyed playing together but now we are almost done. We need something new, more challenging, but yet geared toward playing with the new religion concept in CivIV. Our idea is to setup two independent SGs, 5 players each. Preference will be given to the players of HN01 and the Inquistors, then newcomers as fills are needed.

One team would play as the Jihadists. I think their goal should be to conquer the world and leave no trace of anything but the monotheistic faiths (Judaism/Christianity/Islam). Some other variants unique to a warmonger theme should be included as well. They can only win by domination or conquest.

The other team would play as the Atheists. They believe in religious tolerance and would follow those faiths (Buddhism/Confucianism/Taoism). Their goal would be to peacefully spread their faiths and end all wars. They could only win by culture or diplomacy.

The goal is to beat the other team by accomplishing your objectives the quickest or maybe the highest score as a tiebreaker. This is the basic idea. Comments anyone?

I think you're making judgement calls about the religions in question that will eventually cause the threads to end up in the Off-Topic forum.

If you're going to make a competition out of religion, how about a simple one: two different starting points, 'winner' is the first one to spread a religion (team's choice) to every other city in the world.

What about if the Jihadists were peaceful culture-mongers and the Atheists were pointy stick evangelists? Would that still be a judgement call?

What about if the Jihadists were peaceful culture-mongers and the Atheists were pointy stick evangelists? Would that still be a judgement call?

I'm not referring to the designation of Jihadist or Athest; there are already SGs that used those designations without complaint. My concern is that stating that Religion X automatically falls under one of those categories will cause the game to have discussion issues, in polite terms. Firaxis went through a lot of trouble to ensure religion-objectivity in gameplay, I fear that a digression from that will have consequences.

EDIT: In other words, you can do Atheists vs Jihadists, just don't restrict the teams to playing specific religions.

We had the discussion about atheist religions in the power of religion thread. I'm not sure about jihadist because jihad is solely an aspect of islam (and can no doubt be interpreted in a number of different ways). It would be more accurate to classify judaism, christianity and islam as people of the book as they all include the collection of writings that christians call the old testament.

The team names aren't set in stone and they weren't intended to elicit a lot of heat. They were just names I thought of as I laid out the basic premise of the competition. The religions are split up in this way simply because in general they have similarities to one another and just seem to make the most sense. Throughout the history of real life, Jews, Christians, and Muslims have tended to be much more fanatical about their doctrines, hence a more "warmongering" style of religion spread. Overall, eastern religions, in particular those mentioned for the Atheists, are more peaceful by nature. Have theses religions always followed those paths? No of course not. But in general, they have so it just makes sense to style the game this way. Why should any of this be offensive? The competition isn't really about which religion is better, it's just about which team can accomplish their assigned goals within the given constraints.

I'm just providing a warning, tis all. It's bad enough the General Discussion has regressed with the release of Civ 4, I'd hate to see SG fare the same.

Also, it'd really suck to be on one of the teams and find that the only religions you can use were founded on the other side of the world.

I think you're making judgment calls about the religions in question that will eventually cause the threads to end up in the Off-Topic forum

My concern is that stating that Religion X automatically falls under one of those categories will cause the game to have discussion issues, in polite terms

Religion is always a hot potato however Christianity is a "monotheistic religion" plain and simple no insult here and Judaism/Islam likewise. Again with Buddhism I even looked up Atheistic religion and there are Buddhist that call themselves atheistic in nature because the non belief of a deity in general which I believe Confucianism/taoism can also fall under.

Hinduism is polytheistic in nature (multiple gods) again I can't see any insult here and if Firaxis was worried about that then they should have stayed out of religion all together. We are just playing a theme in which one team achieves a certain goal pursuing a certain kind of religion which falls into a certain category which by it's very nature is defined. If anything Taoism/Confucianism are philosophical "understandings" not even a religion as such. Even in the civapedia it is described as such at least I remember Confucianism being described in this manner. To put a red flag and worry about the off-topic thread well I been there and opinions there vary so much that I personally don't see the concern.

"Jihad" does mean "Holy War" but is not generally practiced by the Muslim culture, just by the extremest. Even Christians have practiced in "Jihad" well known to us as "the Crusades" and "The Inquisition" and many died in these escapades to force the "one God" upon other cultures. Judaist also through "Holy War" fled Egypt and fought their way to the land of Milk and Honey.

So again I can see Firaxis's concern about religion but again should have left it out if they wanted to avoid persons wanting to play a certain theme. It is a democracy still (oh wait I forget US/Canada are pretty much Police States now) but we claim to be democratic and one can speak freely still and pursue a definition of truth meaning we are not insulting anyone just applying what is generally understood about these "practices of faith".

We cannot deny the truth about things much like Europeans/Americans traded in slavery very late in their history. It is a black page in my ancestory history and don't like it but it's the truth. Being born Canadian I am proud that Canada helped many slaves from US through the underground railroad.

I am just saying I am surprised by your reaction Chris as now we must play a certain manner to please the public as such. Yet I see SG's with themes like "religious cleansing" and in our own SG The power of religion not one person has commented referring to the buddhist/hindu's as heathens. But even Firaxis incorporated in the game that very ideal by the AI's attitudes. They don't like that you have fallen under a heathen religion. I don't take insult to that but hey wait a minute why am I a heathen.

If anything Firaxis made the religious card a fun one with difficulty and rewards once you get a few shrines and a lot of cities observing your faith. Wouldn't people be insulted by that religion is seen as a money business. The religion they chose are pretty general too not specifying let's say Catholic/ or Bahai or Protestant or Muslim or many, many more so numerous that one wonders which even got it right. Of course doesn't it say somewhere that confusion is a tool of the Devil. Well I am certainly confused with so many different variations.

So we aren't out to insult anyone just be "pretend Knight crusaders" in our sandbox.

LuvtoBuild I like the idea and put forth the idea in the Inquisitors thread. Oh let's not forget good ole Isabella. Firaxis certainly got her right as she was one of the worst persecuting the Jews considerably but yet showing tolerance to Muslims.

I would be interested in pursuing two teams with this theme in mind but to fend off opinion here's another...

The Satanist against The Holy Ones......

The Satanist would be anti religion and completely warlike, duplicitious in nature, one minute sweet as honey the next a knife in the back. Requiring to do everything to instill confusion in other civs and get them to war with each other as much as possible.

The Holy Ones guided by a code of honor having to convert most of humanity to it's religion through conquest/peaceful methods. Seeking to found as many religions as possible and founding holy shrines.

ChrTh, I appreciate the thoughtful warning, probably based on much experience in public forums such as these (ever go into a computer forum and ask "What's better, a PC or a Mac?")

I had the same inclination prior to joining the Power of Religion SG a few months ago but in reality, nothing could be further from the truth. Rather, the use of two arbitrary "opposing" religious groupings, in this case, monotheistic vs. non- or multi-theistic religions, serves to enrichen the experience by adding a color or flavor to the experience. I think it's a tribute to the Fireaxis designers that their implementation of religion adds to the game so well and our SG certainly bears it out. Besides the rich experience of playing a challenging and rewarding game such as Civ, the religious aspect brings so much to the story that the game reveals. You can check it out yourself in the two threads that evolved from our game, both the game play (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=173376) and the resulting story (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=174270).

I'm just providing a warning, tis all. It's bad enough the General Discussion has regressed with the release of Civ 4, I'd hate to see SG fare the same.

That's because Firaxis opened up a can of worms incorporating religion. I remember when I first played the game all the religious stuff drove me crazy. Until I begun to understand the fluid dynamics of it's methodology did I appreciate it and never saw it as a statement of approval of certain religions. Again "Taoism/Confucianism" aren't religions but "philosophical undertandings". What I would have liked to see is a furtherance of the Mythlogy aspect expanding on Paganism since Romans/Greeks/Egyptians/Norseman all practiced in a different manner and could be unique to each civ in a pagan state.

Ok, since my original appeal is being fought off, I'll try a different tact:

the Atheists have an advantage because of their religious choices; Hinduism is a first tier religion (whereas Judaism is second tier), and Taoism and Confucianism both come before Islam. While a beeline can get Christianity early, that requires skipping more important techs in order to do so. The competition is slanted again the Jihadists.

How's that? :D

It's a good point Chris we could then perhaps add a level of difficulty to the Atheists SG to compensate for that. Again Hindu isn't Atheistic in nature as they do recognize Deities only a multiple amount so actually Hinduism couldn't even fall into either theme. Buddhism/Taoism/Confucianism are the only Atheistic candidates whilst for Monotheistic are Christianity/Islam/Judaism.

Considering that I can see a balance except the Atheist would have a slight edge. So no Hinduism period and we both should view them as the enemy and either convert or perish.

Just FYI here wikipedia definition of both terms:

In theology, monotheism (in Greek μόνος = single and θεός = God) is the belief in the existence of one deity or God, or in the oneness of God. In Western context, the concept of "monotheism" tends to be exclusively tied to the concept of the Abrahamic God of the Abrahamic religions —typically as a whole group. (this definitely refers to all three, how can there be insult here????)

**excerpt from wikipedia
Although atheism is often equated with irreligiosity in Western culture, not all atheists are necessarily irreligious or nonspiritual. Some formal religious beliefs, such as several forms of Buddhism, have been described as atheistic due to their lack of any participating deities, these beliefs are not generally identified as such by adherents. Atheism is also sometimes erroneously equated with antitheism (opposition to theism) or antireligion (opposition to religion), despite many atheists not holding such views.

Here are the players that are interested so far:

LuvtoBuild
Codeman
Pigswill (Atheistic)
Frankcor (Monotheistic)
Cosmichail (doesn't care but likes Monotheistic)
Krockel (from the Inquisitors)

Players not confirmed but will be given preference
Xtream Rockstar
Chunky
Omurtag
Foolonthehill
Adamlan

I suspect the rest will be interested however I would like to see an even roster on each SG so we would need another player to even it out unless someone is not interested which is possible.

We should think about a leader that fits these more so but spiritual when I think about it. The Jihadist could be Isabella or Saladin. The Atheist could be Ghandi or Mansa Musa to make it more interesting to see what comes out of it.

cough, cough mmmmm Chris you interested.... or afraid of the controversy which escapes me good buddy. I was hoping to play on your SG as I have to say I like your spirit.

Thanks for the offer, but I don't think I'm up for another competition after VQ06 ... maybe next time :D

A solution to monotheistic is great prophets to research theology (from monotheism) and islam (from theology and monarchy).

So how about these as our title:

HN02-A The Atheistic Power of Religion

HN02-B The Jihadists Power of Religion
but for B I would personally think the following is more appropriate:

HN02-B The Monotheistic Power of Religion

As Jihad simply refers to "Holy War" and has no inference to a type of religion but is generally seen with Islamic culture but again only the extremest practice it and it is not common acceptance amongst the Islamic culture.

If we are seeking to invoke a warlike SG opposing a more peaceful like then Jihad fits better but then Atheistic should be altered to Pacifist.

So how about this:

HN02-A The Pacifist Power of Religion
HN02-B The Jihadist Power of Religion

Inferring the more peaceful religion in the first and more war like in the second. Variants set around this could be the Pacifist must alway find a peaceful method to spread the word whilst the Jihadist may go to war immediately without attempting conversion. The Pacifist have every right to defend themselves and use conquest if peaceful conversion fails after a certain time frame. Jihadist must always run theocracy once discovered and the Pacifist must always run Pacifism once discovered. I will put more thought into this to provide a balanced play but appreciate any input to further this idea.

Players not confirmed but will be given preference
Xtream Rockstar
Chunky
Omurtag
Foolonthehill
Adamlan


I'm in. No preference on atheist vs. jihadists, I can fill out whichever side needs a player.

Pacifist

1. Must try to convert through peaceful means if that fails may go to war. Meaning after 10 turns of play OB isn’t granted then war can be considered. If OB is granted then missionaries are required to complete the task.
2. Discover at least two religions of preference Buddhism/Taoism/Confucianism.
3. Must build 2 shrines.
4. Cannot invoke slavery.
5. Build monastery for one religion in all cities before end of game.
6. Convert at least 2 civs before end of game first peacefully, but war if needed
7. Must always run Pacifism once discovered.

Choice of Leader Saladin/Mansa Musa/Ghandi

Jihadist

1. Must always go to war with neighbors that aren’t the same religion but limited to one at a time.
2. Discover at least two religions of preference Judaism/Christianity/Islam.
3. Must build 2 shrines.
4. Can invoke slavery.
5. Must build a monastery for one religion in all cities before end of game
6. Convert at least 2 civs before end of game through war only
7. Must always run Theocracy once discovered.

Choice of Leader Saladin/Mansa Musa/Isabella

I thought about the choices of leaders and Saladin should be available to the Pacifist because of philosophical trait no other reason.

Wonders:

Angkor Wat – Pacifist only
Chichen Itza – Both
Stonehenge – both
Oracle – both
Parthenon – Both (but may not be built in intended shrine city except Pacifist)
Sistine Chapel – Jihadist only
Spiral Minaret – Both
Taj Mahal – Both

We should require that each SG build at least three wonders from the list above but of course may build as many as they want.

The SG’s looked balanced only one thing stands out is the slavery, but on Monarch warring tends to get you big fast if you do it right. The Pacifist are limited in that regard so having quicker access to Buddhism is helpful but Judaism isn’t that far off for the Jihadist team. It’s why I felt the Pacifist should be able to build the Parthenon where they wish but limit the Jihadist.

Victory conditions:

The Pacifist will be limited here too as Domination requires a lot of warring which the Jihadist can do. Perhaps enabling the PA for the pacifist team might balance it out imho. I think the way it is, it would be skewed for the Jihadist team from what I’ve seen how this game plays on Monarch.

Advantages for Pacifist:
Great people will come up more often.
PA enabled to level the playing field

Advantages for Jihadist:
Warring will get them bigger faster.
Slavery will help build faster and deal with unhappiness.

Disadvantages for Pacifist:
Peaceful methods will limit the ability to expand.

Disadvantage for Jihadist:
No grace period for warring on neighbor of opposing religion.

On monarch the happiness limit is set to 5 so the Pacifist will have difficulty unless they discover Buddhism first. If Monty/Isabella are around might not make it. So choice of leader is important and one with Mysticism already discovered.

And I think it’s ok to play out of character meaning that Saladin is a good choice for Pacifist and Mansa Musa a good choice for Jihadist. Depends totally on the team desire but Pacifist should go about having mysticism already discovered to go for Buddhism.

Just an proposal at this point and it might be too much for some so I hope 7 variants is ok too and only one wonder that either one of us can’t build.

Here are the members so far interested:

Here are the players that are interested so far:

LuvtoBuild
Codeman
Pigswill (Atheistic)
Frankcor (Monotheistic)
Cosmichail (doesn't care but likes Monotheistic)
Krockel (from the Inquisitors)
Foolonthehill (form the Inquisitors)

So how about these as our title:

HN02-A The Atheistic Power of Religion
HN02-B The Monotheistic Power of Religion

HN02-A The Pacifist Power of Religion
HN02-B The Jihadist Power of Religion

I like these pairs but I would probably prefer the second pair since they fit better with what I have in mind.

Jihadist must always run theocracy once discovered and the Pacifist must always run Pacifism once discovered.

You know Cosmichail, we really gotta stop thinking alike. People will think we share a brain :lol: I was thinking this earlier today and looking through the civics just a little bit ago, it would seem that a lot of them could be split one way or the other. The problem would be making sure we don't unfairly penalize one side versus the other.

My rough idea is something like:

Crusaders

Hereditary Rule/Police State
Vassalage/Nationhood
Slavery/Serfdom
Mercantilism/State Property
Organized Religion/Theocracy

Enlightened Ones

Representation/Universal Suffrage
Bureaucracy/Free Speech
Caste System/Emancipation
Free Market/Environmentalism
Pacifism/Free Religion

Pros/Cons with limiting civics? Too many costly civics on one side or the other? I haven't thought this all the way through, just throwing it out there. I like having variants that set a certain theme like we had this last time but I think we found that some were just too limiting and things got complicated.

Oh and one last thought:

If we loose a religion we need, either team may go to war to get the holy city especially if we are short in our religion count. This would add a new strategy for the Pacifist by delaying researching so perhaps enabled PA for both might be order but let's debate this.

We posted at the same time too Sir Brian now that's funny. I think appropriately you should lead one team and I the other. And we don't have to guess which team. You keep a good handle on the variants and keep the players aware of it which is needed. I believe we should keep the civics fairly simple and would suck to be stuck on vassalage forever. Just religious should matter because don't forget this is monarch and I think we should keep it as simple as possible. Oh yes great minds do think a like.

Yeah, I was thinking of playing as the Pacifists even though I like holy wars. The civics idea is just something I thought of as adding a little more challenge but still keeping within the theme. My thinking is that both sides could revert back to the beginning civics if they only have an expensive civic to choose and they can't afford it. I'm not married to the idea though and I don't want things to get too complicated so whatever the majority consensus turns out to be is fine with me.

As far as the Pacifists going to war, I think they should be required to use Open Borders and diplomacy to convert the world. Otherwise, they would basically become warmongers. They have the option of converting to a rival's religion in order to better relations and get an OB. Then they spread their own religion and try to get the rival to switch to something "more enlightened". It would be difficult but not necessarily impossible. They should never assist in aggression but should try to come to the aid of others who are being oppressed and attacked without provocation. In this way, the Pacifists could still go to war with a rival in "defense" of an oppressed nation (i.e. Hatty getting picked on by Alex). Several wars of defense could help the Pacifists grow an empire without overt warmongering.

Ok so no warring period with the Pacifist unless defensive. So having the PA enabled is good for this team to level the playing field. In monarch you have to war to get some new territory otherwise you get boxed in I find. You ok with the Pacifist though or would you prefer to lead the Jihadist. I want to be give you opportunity to lead which one you want. I do find warring sometimes tedious but like it except all the MMing. That's why I hate artillery with having tanks because they add to the MMing part.

Yeah I'll lead the Pacifists. Its probably time I actually try to discover Buddhism instead of waiting around for somebody else to get it :lol:

I do think the Pacifists should be able to war, just for different reasons and in a defensive manner. I'm sure we'll get picked on enough and hopefully we can turn things around and make the aggressors sorry they ever messed with us :whipped: Oh .. wait .. I suppose we have to teach them all about love :rolleyes: and getting along with others once the war is over. :rolleyes: .......Anybody looking :mischief: here's your love and peace you dirty rotten warmonger :satan: :ar15:

Hey everybody i would join but as u all know im not able to get a computer capiable of running Civ 4 unit Monday so this is a "Sign up"
i would join the... im not sure yet but luckly i still have 2 days before i have a cpu so i gots lots of time to choose

Xtream you are in and don't worry we aren't starting this one right away. So Sir Brian you lead the A team and I will lead the B team.

Here are the players that are interested so far:

LuvtoBuild
Codeman
Pigswill (Atheistic)
Frankcor (Monotheistic)
Cosmichail (doesn't care but likes Monotheistic)
Krockel (from the Inquisitors)
Foolonthehill (form the Inquisitors)
Xtream Rockstar

So that makes 8 so far just waiting from the following to hear if they are interested:

Chunky
Adamlan
Omurtag

If all three join then we will need a fourth to even the numbers out per SG.

So we are getting there and the variants are we in agreement or Sir Brian do you want to put forth a list together with your ideas and mine combined into one list. I do like some limitations in the civics but again it needs to be KISS method otherwise the players will forget along the way. One shortlist per SG would be good.

Thoughts:For pacifists I like Gandhi for mysticism,spiritual and industrious (and a pacifist historical character). For crusaders I like Isabella and Saladin. MM would be good to play but doesn't seem to fit a religious theme so easily.
In terms of civics it might be easier to have banned civics than compulsory civics e.g. pacifists may never run theocracy or police state; crusaders may never run pacifism or free religion.

Wow! Impressing variant list, glad I only have to follow half of it. :)

Regarding team I would like to take part in the Pacifist team!

I find one thing a little unnecessary in the variant rules though:

5. Build monastery for one religion in all cities before end of game.

That means we can’t ever research Scientific Methods, because we need to be able to building monasteries. I find this a little limiting.

Instead of monasteries in all cities you could impose a set number of monasteries that must be built before the end of game 12, 20 or 30 or whatever (which could be 1 monastery in 20 cities, 2 monasteries in 10 cities etc.).
Sounds like we'll be looking for at least one player - maybe advertise for an SG noob (plays solo prince?). As a relative SG noob I remember finding it difficult to find my first SG.

soz didnt notice this thread cud i join plz at wotever religions r left

Absolutely Adamlan you are on a "reserved" list and we work out the teams later. We now have 9 confirmed players.

LuvtoBuild (Pacifist team leader)
Codeman (awaiting what team he prefers)
Pigswill (Pacifist)
Frankcor (Jihadist)
Cosmichail (Jihadist team leader)
Krockel (Pacifist)
Foolonthehill (open on either team)
Xtream Rockstar (deciding)
Adamlan (open on either team)


3 Pacifist so far and 2 Jihadist so far.

Unconfirmed:

Chunky
Omurtag

That means we can’t ever research Scientific Methods, because we need to be able to building monasteries. I find this a little limiting.

We haven't decided yet on all the variants pending team input so we take that into consideration. We are pitching at this point but hope to have two teams of 6 players.

@Pigswill

Yep that sounds good to me. LuvtoBuild and I will work out all the details from all the team members input.

Instead of monasteries in all cities you could impose a set number of monasteries that must be built before the end of game 12, 20 or 30 or whatever

That might be a good solution as we will be playing on Monarch and for some it may be the first time.

Oh I like this I am enjoying this already. Thanks to everyone for their input and willingness to join in. This will be fun to see in the works.

So at this point we have:

Team Pacifist
LuvToBuild
Pigswill
Krockel

Team Jihadist
Cosmichail
Frankcor

Floaters
Codeman
FoolontheHill
Xtream Rockstar
Adamlan

Ultimately its the Death Knight's decision but it only seems fitting that he would be a Jihadist. Codeman could go either way and I'm interested to see which way he wants to go this time around. I'm thinking the Black Knight could use a builder though to keep him in line ;) Since I haven't played with the others to see their style, I'll leave it to you Cos to suggest who should go where since FoolontheHill and adamlan don't have a preference.

The Game

Team Pacifist

1. Space Race, Cultural, Diplomatic, and Conquest will be enabled but they may only achieve a Cultural or Diplomatic victory
2. They must acquire or convert to at least one of the following religions: Buddhism/Confucianism/Taoism
3. They value human life and would never condone slavery or the razing of an enemy city.
4. They may choose between Pacifism or Free Religion as needed but never a Theocracy.
5. They never engage in wars of aggression against a neighbor.
6. Defending friends against aggression is not required but is encouraged.
7. They may build any wonder they choose regardless of the GP points it provides.
8. They may build wonders anywhere it will benefit them the most.

Ultimate Goal: Pass all UN resolutions and then achieve a Diplomatic Victory, otherwise cultural

Team Jihadist

1. Space Race, Cultural, Diplomatic, and Conquest will be enabled but they may only achieve a Conquest victory
2. They must acquire or convert to at least one of the following religions: Judaism/Christianity/Islam
3. They kill when it suits their purposes so slavery and the razing of an enemy city is permissible
4. They may never choose Pacifism or Free Religion
5. They engage in wars when it suits their purpose. Machiavellianism is alive and well in their empire.
6. They choose sides in a war based on their own interests. Friends are used as pawns.
7. They may only build world wonders that provide Great Prophet points.
8. National wonders may be built but not in a holy city. Holy cities must be purely Great Prophet GP points.

Ultimate Goal: Wipe the earth of all heathen religions and leave only the True Faiths

There are a lot of other things that we could throw in here but I think those things should be decided by the individual teams as things to attempt and not requirements for a win. A lot of that stuff will just naturally occur anyway since the Pacifists will want to build lots of temples/monasteries/cathedrals for culture, while the Jihadists will want plenty of monasteries to build missionaries for spreading the faith quickly to new cities they have founded. They will also want the science boost. Both sides will want the shrine income for supporting military units, especially the Jihadists. Founding more than one religion could be problematic. The Jihadists can still capture the holy cities for themselves and the Pacifists will have open Borders a lot with no Theocracy so they can acquire the religions that way, just not the added benefits unless helping a friend in a war presents the opportunity.

Potential Problem: If the Jihadists fail to get a specific monotheistic religion and its holy city becomes contaminated by heathen religions and/or non Great Prophet GP points, they will have to make an exception in order for the game to still be winnable. Either that or they raze one of their own holy cities in order to cleanse the land. Hopefully that scenario won't present itself but it might.

So any thoughts on adding to or taking away?

What about barbarians?
Domination will be disabled?
Are you going for 2 different leaders with 2 different worlds (tho presumably same parameters) or both start with same leader and map?

We got to have the Barbs for practice/promotions. How about raging barbs wow they can be fun. We are in an emperor game and killed 57 barbs in two turnsets.

Raging barbs sounds fine.

I didn't want to have an inadvertent Domination win for the Jihadists and I figured it would only be fair/good idea to turn it off for the Pacifists as well.

I've been assuming two completely separate games. Different civs and different starts but same map type/size, speed, etc. this way both sides can be free to check in and lurk in the other SG without obtaining taboo info.

I'm guessing the Jihadists will achieve victory earlier but probably without as much culture and possibly with less technology. I'm not sure how that all pans out score wise but I'm assuming they would have a higher score just by winning sooner. I've heard of insanely high scores by playing duel and wiping out the opponent in the BCs. Seems cheesy to me. I'm not sure what the bragging rights should be based on then.

Our own sort of points system might be best. So many for earliest victory, plus some for number of military units, culture buildings, wonders, etc. You would think the in game score would consider all this but I'm not sure it does in a common sense fashion. I mean, how is it that somebody should get a higher score from beating one opponent in a Duel at 2500BC versus somebody that wins an OCC by Diplomacy in 2025 with 18 civs on a standard Pangea map? Seems like the later is more of a challenge to me.

Yeh it is skewed to military conquest and let's face it diplomacy/space require a lot of teching too to get there so you can't win early in the game just because of that. I have seen some outrageous scores and basically it's doesn't mean anything if you are in it for the gameplay. There are times I could finish a game get a really high score but continue because I don't feel like finishing it just yet.

Now as to the game starts are you doing something? Are you starting the Pacifist thread/game and shall I start the Jihadist thread/game. We will attract more attention by having them up and be able to start gameplay soon. Raging barbs can be a pain but if both have to deal with it then it could be interesting.

Yeah I thought I would start the Pacifist thread and roll the start for it when we decide on the settings for sure. You can start the Jihadists thread and roll the start for them.

Do we agree to stick with the initial map rolled or are we free to regen if we get a crappy start? Maybe we allow three separate starts for each team to choose from. This way one team doesn't get screwed from the getgo by a tundra start:wallbash:

Three starts sounds good because the start is everything in my book. If you get tundra well it's pretty much a toughie from get go. So we go with your last sets of variants to keep it simple.

i can play either team, but which one would the Paladan, Holy the Holy Knight support?

Me thinks Jihad Codeman since the other theme is based on a Atheistic culture.

Just can't afford to miss this game... an Inquisitor reporting for duty :salute: I also don't have a preference on the team*

*as long it is the winning one :lol:

Good show Omurtag welcome on board.

@LuvtoBuild,

I just noticed that Jihadist can only build Great prophet point wonders. In a sense I am not crazy about this limitation however will live with it since Monarch it's difficult to get a lot of wonders anyways. What I wonder though is what if we capture cities with wonders other than GProphet wonders. Since there is no stipulation for this I am feeling it leaves open a strategy we could use to get certain favorite wonders by conquest. Namely the Great Library/Pyramids etc. This is generally what happens in Monarch for me anyways but quite have often have built GL on my own on Monarch.

All said and done we still can capture them as there is no stipulation for this.

Ok these are now the confirmed players to date:

LuvtoBuild (Pacifist team leader)
Codeman (awaiting what team he prefers)
Pigswill (Pacifist)
Frankcor (Jihadist)
Cosmichail (Jihadist team leader)
Krockel (Pacifist)
Foolonthehill (open on either team)
Xtream Rockstar (deciding)
Adamlan (open on either team)
Omurtag (open on either team)

Unconfirmed:
Chunky

We have 10 confirmed players and if Chunky wishes to join that makes 11 so that would mean just one more. In the Inquisitors thread a new player asked to play so I invited him to take a look here and post if he is interested so that could be 12 with Chunky when confirmed.

cud i join the jihadist team ive made my mind up as i like to war

Ok it's done adamlan

@LuvtoBuild,

I just noticed that Jihadist can only build Great prophet point wonders. In a sense I am not crazy about this limitation however will live with it since Monarch it's difficult to get a lot of wonders anyways. What I wonder though is what if we capture cities with wonders other than GProphet wonders. Since there is no stipulation for this I am feeling it leaves open a strategy we could use to get certain favorite wonders by conquest. Namely the Great Library/Pyramids etc. This is generally what happens in Monarch for me anyways but quite have often have built GL on my own on Monarch.

All said and done we still can capture them as there is no stipulation for this.

I don't have a problem with dropping that requirement for the Jihadists. I just figured that Team Jihad has a bit of an advantage since they can probably win a Conquest game sooner and easier than the Pacifist can win a diplo game. They should maybe have a little restriction in other areas.

Capturing and keeping enemy cities with the wonders you want wouldn't violate the rule but you probably wouldn't want to keep the city if it has a heathen religion now would you? ;) You guys are free to play in the style you want, I just setup the rules this way to try and balance things out and provide some contrast in play style.

It looks like Codeman and adamlan have gone to the Dark Side so I should probably draft a floater for the Pacifists. FoolontheHill signed up first so I will draw him. That leaves Xtream Rockstar and omurtag. Since Xtream is still deciding, we'll wait and see what he chooses before assigning omurtag. If Chunky shows interest, we'll pick up a newcomer. If Chunky doesn't play then do we stick with 5vs5 or look for two newcomers?

How's that? :D

Works for me.

SGOTM2 advertising.
Holy Ones Team?

Due to my keen interest in VQ also I am hoping to hook up with them.

Also Chunky indicates he wishes to lurk so that makes two teams of 5. We could keep it open for newcomers as we seen in HN01 people come and go due to RL and extra players never hurts.

i have decided Jihadist mostly cause im feeling war like

i have decided Jihadist mostly cause im feeling war like

So I guess this leaves the pacifist team for me... :beer:

So dat is dat......WE are have our teams organized now.....

FoolontheHill signed up first so I will draw him. That leaves Xtream Rockstar and omurtag.

Peace and :love: be upon you all.

Peace and :love: be upon you all.

and may the heathens be slayen LOL

I'm assuming it's okay for war-makers to read the peaceful team's thread and vice versa. Should we use this discussion thread to talk about how the overall competition is going?

For example, it currently looks like both teams have isolated starts. I don't think any of us considered that possibility as we discussed setting up the variants. Will it affect one team more than the other?

Isolated starts tend to slow down science as monarch and up lots of trading is needed to keep at the same level of science. What might be though is the others civs are accessible by galley. Of course it's ok to look since we have different starts/civilizaton leaders. I have been looking and posting (once) in the Pacifist thread.

This is the best place for discussion amongst all ten members.

i think it will hurt us more and help them peacefull folks, but yeah that is kinda crazy. what are the odds?

I've been sneaking peeks at the warmongers ;) Us peaceniks wouldn't have been isolated if I hadn't screwed the original start but what can I say, another save bites the dust :sad:

Anyway, I usually end up playing pangea at noble because my first time playing continents I found myself so backwards it wasn't even funny. But then I suck that way :D Of course on Pangea, I get screwed because I never settle quickly enough.

@The Pacifists
By the way, I played a little bit of that original start #2 just to satisfy my curiosity. Guess what? Yeah, it had marble practically next door to Delhi :cry:

To All:
Anybody have any ideas on a scoring system for bragging rights? I've been trying to think of some way to balance things. Break the game up into categories like Military/Culture/etc.

Anybody have any ideas on a scoring system for bragging rights?

How about we keep it simple -- we win, you lose. ::SNARF::

Seriously, you shouldn't beat yourself up over messing up the game start. That stuff happens to everybody.

Abdul-haqq, Servant of the Truth

How about we keep it simple -- we win, you lose. ::SNARF::

Not a bad idea but I think I like it better the other way around :D Of course in keeping with the latest traditions of peace and love, perhaps we shouldn't be competing at all. I mean, the world would be such a better place if we could all just get along, right? No winners or losers. Nothing to fight about. Won't you just give peace a chance? :lol:

Seriously, you shouldn't beat yourself up over messing up the game start. That stuff happens to everybody.

I suppose not but I just feel like a big nOOB :crazyeye: I've been trying to hide it but now the cat is out of the bag.

Humility is the key to wisdom.

Lacking spiritual perfection I'd say lets just go for score (which has a heavy bias to early finish and pop but that's ok)

Lacking spiritual perfection I'd say lets just go for score (which has a heavy bias to early finish and pop but that's ok)


Sounds good to me. Pigswill you a wise man and obviously joined the right crew to apply your wisdom. No blood and guts like us warrior types.

LuvtoBuild you a builder at heart (engineer) and in CIV 4 can be good and bad. I have found that at some point you have to fight to grow since at levels Monarch and up the AI will box you in quickly. So in a sense you are probably lucky to have an isolated start to grow at your own pace. I would prefer to have a crowded landmass and get the copper early and axe rush them. Getting rid of one capitol (and keeping it) can really make a difference.

Also you not in the right age group but you sound like a 60's hippy dude man, which is my generation and always have a warm spot for it. Most of those peaceniks from then are corporate slaves now but hey sooner or later we all give in.

Just brainstorming outloud here, how about awarding 1 point to whichever team finishes the highest in each catagory on the Demographics screen (population, GNP, production, soldiers, and so forth). If both teams are tied on a catagory, no point is awarded. Highest total points wins. That way we're competing on how well we competed against the AI in each of our games.

like that.

I thought about using the demographics screen in some way but then I realized it might be unbalanced as well. Yes, I'm a whiner :cry: I figure since the Jihadists will be winning by conquest, they will be the top in every category right? So I don't know of an easy way to even things up. I guess thats why the score favors conquest over diplomacy. I think we'll just play for the fun of it and roll our eyes when you guys start talking about your high score :D Maybe a psycho Hindu Bloc like Monty/Alex/Genghis will nuke your hineys and you'll learn to appreciate our Pacifist ways :lol:

You're killing me.

Abdul Haqq, Servant of the Truth

Maybe a psycho Hindu Bloc like Monty/Alex/Genghis will nuke your hineys and you'll learn to appreciate our Pacifist ways

Not on my watch I'll nuke him first MOHAAAAA

You generally get those insane scores with early conquest/domination but later in the game (1800-2000) score does dramatically drop. Conquest is no easy nut to crack on Monarch as even on Prince I am playing an SG and like it's tough. We will have to start warring pretty quick and being isolated makes it that much harder. I personally have never won a conquest victory but either domination/diplomatic/or space. When I first started it was time victories on lower levels like Noble. If I play Noble now I find myself surpassing the AI at warp speed. Even on Prince I am beginning to find that.

Here's what I think makes all the difference (learned from SG's)

Tech trading and researching techs the AI don't have. (to maximize trading)

Getting the AI's to war with each it's amazing how it slows them down research wise and if it's aggressive civ usually can get them to go to war cheap. Aiming for alphabet early for trading/Literature for GL. That's why I didn't like the variant because I can't build my beloved GL. Those two scientist are worth their weight in gold in the beginning.

MMing the cities a lot can make a big difference and assigning the right kind of specialists. I personally prefer having one city with priests and the other with the GL having scientist. Those scientist can help move the tech trading along nicely.

So I think we both have our difficulty in winning so the score should be the measuring stick as it were.

You're probably right. It will be interesting at least to see how the scores compare in the end. They might be more balanced than i expect.

To all players of both teams

Civfanatics is starting the SGOTM02 soon. I was hoping to play with VQ but they have too many players for one team and not enough for two. I was wondering if anybody here is interested in joining a team to play the SGOTM02

I have noticed Pigswill signing up and I would be interested in forming with him and possibly one or two other players from the VQ team. So that would make three so another three would be good. Just post to express your interest and we'll see what happens.

Sounds good to me.

expressing some interest...

Codeman if you want to play I will add you to the VQ roster list however you need to go to the SGOTM02 thread and register. We are playing up against about 10 teams or more and end up in the civfanatics competition awards.

Here's the link for SGOTM02 which is Toku on monarch and has a twist since the Moderator adds a few special things.

SGOTM02 Toku (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=178766)

I'd like to play with some of you guys in that. I thought about signing up the other day but didn't since I had no team in mind. Do we just put down Team VQ and then wait and see what teams develop? I wouldn't mind being the scribe for the report threads.

@LuvtoBuild

You would be a great addition for the scribe and gameplay. I will add you to the VQ roster and just go to the SGOTM02 thread register and indicate you want to be on VQ team.

Guys that leaves one spot open with a possible second on the VQ team for SGOTM02 so if anybody else is interested just post here.

Also here's the link for the VQ team and see what they are saying about setting up teams.

Team VQ thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=166876)

Hello there!

Cosmic:
I'm at my parents house and will be so until next monday. I didn't know for how long I would stay here until today, so I couldn't inform you on the time for my skip in Inquistors.
I would be intressting in joining your team for SGOTM2. :)

Ciao!

Krockel: you'll need to sign yourself up for SGOTM2

what is SGOTM2?

The second succession game of the month (on GOTM sub-forum)

i just overlooked the rules and the settings of the SGOTM and is there i limit on team members cause ill join

You'll need to sign up individually at SGOTM. If you're interested in playing with VQ/HN bunch then check out VQ thread.

I am still for punishing us for this atrocity by playing emperor/barbs. Theoretically we can't build any wonders in the variant other than religious so why not Emperor. You just have to use your wits more plus I would like to succeed on that level. I am thinking putting forth a strategy plan to succeed. I am beginning to realize that number 1 is the start. No 2 is commerce early to gain such as fish/gold/oasis/lakes with fishing. Smart trading and agressive selling of goods and renegotiating. Most important wonders: Great Library, Great Lighthouse, Oracle, Pentagon, Parthenon for early advancement. On Emperor you won't get most of these so you need a GP farm and no production nothing but scientist on the caste system. If you get a hold of floodplains start a GP farm. I have really thought about this and I a beginning to think financial is not effective as GP farm especially if you are philosophical. Stuffing the capitol full with Super specialist (even GP's are great for commerce/prod/culture) really makes it a powerhouse. I have had bad habit of overexpanding and screwing up my science. You only need 5 or 6amazing cities to jump ahead. But I mean amazing:

1 GP farm
1 Commerce/science
1 Production (Military, Wonders)
1 Commerce/production
1 Production (Military, Wonders)
1 Science city


and if you can add one more GP farm. I am thinking about an SG trying this as a variant.

It would go like this:

Achieve 6 cities on Monarch with a population of more than 18 per city by the year 1900 including these variants.

1. One city must produce commerce of 100 gpt and setup for Great Merchants.
2. One city must produce at least 120 hammers (need to research that more, setup for Great Engineers)
3. One city must pop nothing but scientists.
4. One city must pop nothing but Priests. The others cities can pop what they like according to what is built there however whenever possible Great Merchants.
5. The science must produce 300 beakers science.
6. Must run caste system until blding allow for multiple specialist

Military stance: Defensive most of the time until our Empire flows with gold and needs to expand.
Religion is flexible.
Wonders favored: Colossus, Great Lighthouse, Wall street and we do not use Mercantilism.
We like Free Trade and Open borders/Free Religion. State property is only allowed during war time. Enviromentalism is ok as we have a little tree hugging in us. We love trading and excelling in Science enjoy certain freedoms for our people and prefer Representation. Our Military will be strong and modern but we can afford that we're rich....

I think I'm going to call it HN-03 English Traders - Great People. Our theme will be to emphasize trading. I am thinking the lovely Queen of England. Financial and philosophical. But I am wanting to fall back to Monarch for this. In a sense I am leaning more towards this then continuing on with Jihadist. Have been thinking about this methodology and want to play it out in an SG. (no raging barbs either but just regular) I haven't played Lizzy much and want to try out the UU for her.

The first SG for me was an experiment to see how effective religion is money wise and it is great except you have are taxed with getting missionaries out and later the game a lot fail. Wasted hammers sometimes. On Monarch and up happiness is the troubling factor in the beginning so having at least one religion can make a world of difference.

You have to tweak regularly and think whilst using the workers. I have too often built too many cottages (spamming) and look back and think I should have had a GP farm. Just think in the beginning GP can get you Civil Service after Code of laws just don't research Masonry so no Judaism. GS can be useful until the end of the game and GE's aren't aimed for enough in my games and that has to change. Just thought of another addition to the Production city only engineers and popping Engineers. He will give all of most wonders up to Statue of Liberty and a big chunk of the Pentagon. I want to experiment with that philosophical trait with financial.

Now I am not saying none of this hasn't been suggested or done but that's what I would like to do for learning the dynamics of the game.

i'm game for most anything... in civ anyway:)

Sounds like fun. Those Redcoats can be pretty sweet. So are you guys looking to start a new Jihad game or just move on to this idea? I'm assuming the Pacifists will still want to finish

I think you guys should finish. I played the Jihad to 35 ad and got the Oracle/MC, founded Christianity, and was on my fourth city. Just think not building one silly warrior destroyed an empire. Xtream made a smoke move and wasn't thinking but we are all guilty of that sometimes. My experiment has been satisfied and I have honour in acknowledging our team failed plain and simple. We are all responsible especially the leader. It is just a game but once in my world a challenge is made and the rules set no "restart" can alter that.

I want to experiment now with a supercity culture based on Lizzy mainly because of her traits. I am still wondering what the best approach is to the higher levels and am envisioning certain strategies.

Ever considered an OCC with Lizzy? That one map I was playing with Lizzy was OCC and had a real sweet start. I packed the world with 12 civs on a standard sized map. I think I used the SmartMap script though. I had corn, two clams, and a fish in the BFC. There was a huge lake in the backyard and like 5 forested plains hill. I also had some excellent terrain for defense and the only time I had trouble was when the AI started getting smart and landing on my coastline. Unfortunately, I was having a hard time making friends that could actually survive against Mao, Alex, and Peter. I was hoping to get a PA so somebody Friendly could take or at least resettle the land as I scorched it with Redcoats. Asoka was Alex and Peter's whipping boy. Mansa couldn't seem to stand up to Mao. So I finally got frustrated and gave up. I tried a couple of times trying different things but it is a little cheesy and never feels like a win then. I like to do that sometimes though with a map that I like just to try out different things and to play on a cool map.

Codeman you expressed interest in the SGOTM02 and are on the list just make sure you register there. Same for Krockel/Xtream. Xtream since you spoke up last I hope you are ok with filling for skips/OOP. If you want to be in another team in a fully active role on SGOTM02 I am sure the Mod will find you one. If you do you can't cover skips/OOP as we aren't allowed to look at anybody's threads.

All new players make sure you read the rules regarding threads.

im good for fillen in for stuff so im like the fillling of a Pastry with all of the other players on the outside crust and when the piece of crust is gone i show ahhh im stawberry :lol:

Here is the list for the proposed teams on SGOTM02

Team VQ Red
Maquis -- Red Leader
GreyFox
Scowler -- Red Scribe (I'll teach you to blame me)
Codeman
armstrong
Krockel

Team VQ Black
bobrath -- Black Leader
namliaM
eektor
Cosmichail
Pigswill
LuvtoBuild -- Black Scribe

Xtream Rockstar -- backup

Ok Gents after some ranting and raving I feel better. AAAHHHH now time for a cup of tea. Love the English tea and by the way my Queen let's go conquer the world. (British Empire certainly one to be admired and a favourite) Can you imagine a little island doing that. Certainly says something about the Anglo/Saxon trait. No wonder the Germans ran when English battleships showed up. (Even the Bismarck had superiority and ran rather than take out the Prince of Wales. ) Here we go again.


Ok for all those on the Jihadst I will restart a new game but we have to pay a price. Emperor on Raging barbs and NO limitations on wonders I am veteoing that rule. We must only found one religion or take a city holding one of our preferred religions. Nothing else. Reason Emperor is tough and gentlemen you need to brainstorm playing at this level. Meaning take long decisive turns and check everything. Trade trade. The biggest single most important wonder which is very hard to get is the GLibrary so if that's lacking specialist so if we have a good GP farm site (philosophical trait) farm it no cottages. Make use of that trait and USE the spirtual. Flip back and forth from theocracy and OR for XP points. Think, think MM to death, trade, trade, use workers wisely, hookup happiness resources first as Emperor very limiting in that regard. Wonders are tough and warmongering paramount.
Again warmongering is paramount. You get boxed in fast so the only way is war. We are Jihadist and know what that means.

Will post a new game within Jihadist thread this weekend.

Also I am continuing on with HN-03 English Traders - Great People as I am interested in making "SUPERSUPER cities". So two new games one for the current players of Jihadist and English Traders I will put up a new thread and all players from HN/VQ will be given preference. I like complexity and have somewhat complex variants for English Traders as it is an experiment to satisfy a methodology approach to winning.

EDIT: As to farming a GP farm that does have to wait until we get happiness levels up somewhat. So cottaging is fine but we can change it just hurts mowing down cottages producing 7 gold.

Just a note to all players that joined SGOTM02. It will be starting in a week so good luck guys and happy playing.

A small correction here : Hinduism , as a religion , is not polytheist , but is pantheist . This means that Hindus believe that there is one god , but he is expressed to humanity in many forms .


May I suggest a variant - The Pantheist Power of Religion ? The goal here is to conquer the world in any way possible , but with certain conditions .

The list of banned Civics would be :

Police State
Bureaucracy OR Nationalism
Slavery AND Serfdom ( because indigenous Hindu/Indian culture prohibited it )
Mercantilism AND State Property
Theocracy AND Pacifism ( Hindu/Indian culture , againj prohibits both extremes )


Maybe this game can be something of a moderate between the two extremes of the warlike religions and the pacifist ones ?

I'd welcome suggestions as to how this could be implemented better , and what rules should be put in place .

Thanks for the correction re Hinduism. What would be the Hindu approach to other religions i.e. strong opposition, passive tolerance or active promotion? I'd assume passive tolerance (i.e. if a city has a non Hindu religion that's ok but you wouldn't build non-Hindu missionaries or shrines).

Aneeshm,

Thank you for your input regarding the Hindu religion. I have been fascinated by Hindu/Indian culture for many years especially the treatment of animals which I feel is the most humane on the planet. I dread sometimes thinking about our culture how we mass produce meat. Also the inhumane treatment of animals such as chickens being kept in little coops and given little opportunity for any kind of life.

I was not aware that Hindus believed in one God but he is expressed to humanity in many forms. That is something I didn't understand, and definitely a Great Being would be able to do that. Since we started playing these games I have learned a lot regarding the religions as presented in Civ 4.
Pigswill enlightened us to the fact that Buddhism is considered by some to be an Atheitistic religion to some, not all. What I always appreciate about humanity the most is it's diverse views on things, and discoveries that lead us to the path of knowledge.

Knowledge is what broadens the mind to allow ourselves to appreciate other cultures and understandings. We might not all agree but I for one love learning new things. I also have a fascination for the huge buildings (pyramid type buildings with erotic art) in the south of India. I apoligize but the name of these great buildings escape at the moment but have watched a program on it on Discovery. It showed to me that Hindu culture has no fear of expressing their sexuality.

So again thank you for your input and would love to hear more insights from you.

To all SGOTM02 players. The Thread is open now so enjoy

Lurker
VQ-Red calling Codeman ... please report to the SGOTM2 thread and start spamming it. We have to thrash the blackies in terms of number of posts!!!! :lol: