I'm just curious as to what strategies most players would employ when faced with no copper and no iron on their landmass. In my current game, I started on a landmass with access to neither (very odd). The only copper resource that I had found was within Isabella's borders.

I burned my oracle slingshot on Iron Working in the hopes that I would find an iron resource nearby but obviously that yielded nothing (as an aside, do any of you notice how lack of any copper resources usually means you're next to iron?). At this point I had no choice but to switch my usual research path to the less desirable Hunting -> Archery (I needed to mount some kind of defense against the upcoming barb attacks).

Anyway, with no access to any of these valuable resources for war, I'm wondering how some of you might approach a start like this. I'm not a fan of regenerating maps and I enjoy the challenge of these crappy starts (I'm only playing on Noble so you can obviously survive such a poor situation).

Hmm, spending the Oracle's free tech on Iron doesn't really appeal to me. You can always get something more expensive, can't you?

As far as the "no copper + no iron" situation you do have an alternative: try to go with chariots. If the AIs near you also don't have copper and iron then a chariot rush might succeed. I'm playing a game with Cyrus right now, and he has Immortals (replacing chariots) with bonus against archers, so that's what I used for two of my wars. The first one was against archers and warriors only, then I got them promoted (Combat I + Shock + other promotions for some) and managed to reuse them in my next 2 wars. Not sure how long the usual chariot could last, maybe I'll try it sometime with another civ.

By the way, I'm playing on Prince, Marathon speed.

You said "with no access to any of these valuable resources for war", can I guess that means besides copper and iron you have no horse either in your empire? If so, I just suggest you get your archers ready as soon as possible and try to pay more attention to diplomacy. Before you can get Chemistry you may need to hold a great amount of Longbows just to protect yourself.
Don't forget send your archers to do some fogbuster job, even though I don't think barbarians can be a big problem on the noble level.

Could beeline for construction, get catapults and War Elephants too. You'll need a source of Ivory for the latter though. Archers are fairly cheap though and you could bring them in overwhelming numbers with the First Strike bonus and pillage away.

A decent stack of cats protected by a few Archers/Longbows with Combat I or II would do the trick with capturing a Copper/Iron city for you. If you're connected to Ivory, a couple of Elephants would do, too.

Try pressing down for construction and attack with a mess of cats plus some archers for defense/garrison. Strength 5, not melee, can get city raider will do fine at taking cities before longbows, especially with collateral damage. If you've got ivory then definately go for construction, elephats + cats for walls is a strong force in its own right, really pretty close to praetorians in strength.

yah if u got ivory u can go construction. u could also create overwhelming warrior numbers, take a copper/iron city then upgrade all the warriors. I haven't done this in a while but I think its either 3:1 or 4:1 warrior w/ city raider 1 that will beat the archers. if he has axes then u could also try to overwhelm him w/ archers. similar idea. but then u can't upgrade.

also remember u can maintain a 1:1 kill ratio all the way down to a I believe 20% initial chance of success. I forget, but using numbers in the short term works pretty good. I've killed a defender w/ two of the same unit where the first guy had a 2% chance of success.

The proper game technique to use when you find yourself on a landmass with no copper or iron is known as "restarting the game because there is absolutely no way you're going to win since the AI will relentlessly attack you and invariably win regardless of whatever strategies you may happen to try."

Works every time.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic. And I hate restarting games because I think that's cheating. But then again, I hate wasting time, too, and quite frankly the game weights access to the "war" resources so highly that you might as well forget it. You can make a game marginally more enjoyable with the Archer/Chariot/Longbowman/etc. replacements, but those agressive AIs who have Macemen and Swordsmen know you're weak and will destroy you. You have NO option to be a war leader, at least in the first 2/3rds of the game, if you don't have access to either Copper or Iron.

I'm completely at a loss why noone has mentioned horse archers..I found myself in a similar position to you recently, and you'll find that horse archers are better than swordsmen vs axemen, and plenty good enough to take cities..

Even when the AI builds spearmen, its usually at very least 2 archers to a spearmen and if you grit your teeth and just throw your first waves onto the spear points (even though its a horrible thing to do) then the spears will be gone and the cities will fall (with enough horse archers)..

Also an advantage to the horses is their double movement, allowing you to make a quick thrust into Spanish lands, and take their metal at the start of the war, making the rest of it so much easier..

Of course you need horses for the above..no copper, no iron, no horses = a lot of really bad luck..

With enough catapults, aggressive war is always possible.

No copper + No iron = No fun! ;)

The best argument in favor of archers and horse archers is a situation like the OP is talking about. With those units, you can ride it out until you have cats, at least.

Use chariots, horse archers, catapults, and/or elephants to secure a metal. If desperate, even massed archers can do the job, assuming you only have to take a city or two to secure the metal.

That's Bow's not Bow as in Genefluct to your opponent..

Mine all the hills, you never know, you may just luck out, as you started with no metal's..in DISCOVERING a Iron/copper mine...

Granted its random and about 2% chance...but happens 1/50...

Anyway, you can develop more defensive statergies..build wall's...if you have access to stone.

Horses and Elephants you didn't mention? are they about...research animal husbandry and see for horses..Elle is allway's visable.

Cultivate a religious alliance....Try actually to TRADE for copper iron...pay through the nose for it...or try using gold :crazyeye:

As you say you don't like restarting crappy starts, since you have Isobela as neighbour, build a road to her city adopt her religion...and pay homage to her..

Get all buddy buddy, climb in to bed with her....then once you've secured your self Military wise....

START THE INQUISITION!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

Take a look at the reports from Waiting For Godot (http://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=13&page=9&sort=lastpost&order=&pp=20&daysprune=-1).

Mass horse archers. I won an early war entirely with keshiks. Just send in a stack of three before your main forces to disconnect their metals. Then leave one horse on eachone. Make sure that you pillage all roads around the metal. The AI wn't send a worker out when your units are in the fat cross.

Now you know why the aztecs have jaguars. You only need one city with metals so its about acquiring that city; if you've got horses then horse archer rush unless you've got a chariot UU; if no horses then beeline construction for elephants w ivory or catapult rush (archer escort)

Use elephants, horse archers and cats really. Am rarely in a position where i havnt got iron/bronze though.

Try it once, you'll be surprised how easy it is. 8-10 cats alone are capable of capturing a city protected by 4-5 Longbows. Bombard cultural defenses, on the next turn attack. First 3-4 of them die, the rest wins.

You only need something to protect them, especially against mounted attacks. Archers (Combat, Guerrilla) or Elephants (Combat I-II).

got stuck in a MP game yesterday where the same thing happened to me. got into a culture war over the only copper between me and someone playing monty. (i was kublah) i was lucky to have horses in a secure area. I whipped kheshiks until my hands bled.. protected the stack with some archers. the continual reinforcements arrived quicker to my front than his.. and eventually beat out his spears and jags trying to hold that city down. from there I was able to get axes and cats to finish him off.

I would say No Copper + No Iron + No Horse = No War

A horde of warriors can win a war, but that would be a freaking huge horde.

Well it's probably too late once you find your resource screwed, but Montezuma and those Jaguars are really useful if you have no copper/iron.

I'm curious to find out if this person has access to Horses or Elephants. If so, then he's all set. If not, then he'll have to stick with the catapult routine, which, can work, but you need to build alot of cats.

Basically, whichever method you choose, your goal is obvious. Whichever city has that copper resource - capture it.

Don't forget you can archer spam to capture the copper city. Just spam them (they're cheap), capture the city, and then sign peace asap.

Check out ALC 3 I believe with Hatsepsut. War chariots for the win. Also under Stories->succession games you can check out a succession game that forebids the use of any resource related unit (so no horses, no copper, no iron, no oil, no aluminium, nothing). Right now they are waging war with archers and cats alone and it is fun to follow.

My advice is the same as everyone elses. Head for Animal Husbandry, Mounted Units, or Construction (or all three) to get the early resources and units you need to take the copper city.

Archer spam is possible, but costly if there are more than a few units in the city. First pillage all metal and horses as soon as you see the AI develop it so her military can't ever be stronger than an archer. They will also throw extra units at you to try and get the resource back. Then YOU will have the defensive advantage archer to archer.