GOTM-09: Pre Game Discussion

This game MUST be played in patch version 1.61. We will NOT accept any games played under any other patch versions, and you can't play it in warlords!


Game settings:
Civilization: Incans (Leader: Huayna Capac; Traits: Aggressive & Financial)
Rivals: 6
Difficulty: Emperor
Map: Continents
Mapsize: Standard
Climate: Tropical
Water level: Low
Starting Era: Ancient
Speed: EPIC
Victory Conditions: all enabled

Huayna Capac:
Huayna Capacis Financial and Aggressive; starting with agriculture and mysticism. Aggressive allows double production speed of barrakcs and drydocks, as well as free combat 1 promotion on melee & gunpowder units. Financial allows +1 commerce on any tile producing 2 or more, as well as double production speed banks.

Unique unit: Quechua:
The Quechua replaces the warrior. It has strength of 2 and costs 15 hammers. Like the warrior, it gets +25% city defence, but it also gets +100% vs archery units - quite a useful city defender against early (non-axeman!) barbarians.

The starting screenshot is here:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/gotm09large.jpg

Adventurer Class bonuses:
To be confirmed. Note that it will be substantial, to help with the increase in difficulty level


Challenger Class Equalisers:
To be confirmed.

It looks like a fairly good starting spot for a financial civ with that gold, and the flood plains that can be cottaged for good money while still growing the city.

looks like a good starting spot.

i played (and won!) an empreror game with huyana recently. the key is to get those quechas out early on, build three or four in a row and go searching for the nearest capital city. with the 100% bonus against archers you should be able to capture it, as long as you get there before they get copper hooked up.

that will give you an early lead which you should be able to keep all the way through.

Great, Emperor game :sad: , this might be a bit beyond me.

The start looks nice though, floodplain valley. I can count 4 floodplains and 2 further south that can be worked and a gold hill.

The main question of moving, the only viable square seems to be the forest/plains/hill square, but moving there would mean we can't use the gold hill with the capital. None of the other squares seem to offer any advantage so my feeling is to settle in place.

The starting moves seems to be move the Quecha north to see if there is anything of interest there, if no settle in place. An immediate worker would be built and set research for mining to use the gold followed (probably) by AH for the sheep.

I see some anticipation took the target.

Nice start
Quechua NW or SW to see if there's something interesting, but probably settle in place
(loose 1 turn is a luxury we can't allow on Emperor)
mining seem to be a priotity meditation for an early religion?? I got to think about it.

Warmogering? probably, very early this time
I'm goin' to edit a map with this start ... let's see

Initially, move quechua n or nw onto hill to look for any other visible
resources. Then, settle in place, n or nw depending on what quechua sees.
As far as research Inca begins with mysticism, but going for an early religion
may be a gamble on emperor. Mining may be the best first choice to take
advantage of the gold. We may not want to follow with bronze working as
that obseletes our UU. An early rush on a neighbor may be in order. This
is a good rushing civ.

I've tried to reproduce the starting location on a a map created with the same parameters.
Sorry for the fog, but the start was too close to the coast, as it seems NOT to be the case in GotM9

133820

Also, I removed the goody huts since this seem to be the rule in GotM.

Hope could be useful

Note for the Administrator: an annoiyng redirect put me out when i try to enter the forum ... this happened some 10 days ago, and if i don't use ADwatch it still happens.
This happens only in civ4 forum and its links (and not always), never in other sites. Just to let you know.

Wow, after a week or two playing the game I go to look at the GotM.. didn't have time to work on this month's so I'll be diving right into Emperor. :eek: Follows the tradition of my first ever Civ3 GotM happening at Deity!

This starting location looks wonderful, with lots of food and luxuries.. but after looking at the Map Settings, I'm a little wary of the barbarians. Continents + Low Sea Level + Tropical climate = Many Angry Barbarians in the Jungle. A large early army is going to be necessary, not only for the AIs, but for the buffed up Emperor barbarians!

Great, Emperor game :sad: , this might be a bit beyond me.

Likewise, I never tried Emperor, but after beating Monarch last GOTM this is exactly what I wanted! :crazyeye: I anticipate a lot of useful advice from experts (not from me! :p ) on worker stealing and quechua rushes on this thread.

The start looks nice though, floodplain valley. I can count 4 floodplains and 2 further south that can be worked and a gold hill.

In fact there are 5 if you count the tile the settler is on now. But due to unhealthiness penalties (-1 from each 4 fp, right?) I guess a clever move would be to settle 1N so you keep 4 fp and all the 3 special resources, while escaping from additional unhealthiness from those (likely) southern fp´s and getting those foggy northeastern forests in our capital´s fat cross.

The main question of moving, the only viable square seems to be the forest/plains/hill square, but moving there would mean we can't use the gold hill with the capital. None of the other squares seem to offer any advantage so my feeling is to settle in place.

I disagree, besides my arguments above you´d also miss chopping that forest later.

The starting moves seems to be move the Quecha north to see if there is anything of interest there, if no settle in place.

I beg to differ again. I might consider moving quechua only after settling 1N, and most likely southbound, over the hills: SW, SE and then following the river. Why? From resource bubbles we´re on northern hemisphere, and at the end of the river we could find some neighbours (maybe steal a worker :cool: ) or the coast.

An immediate worker would be built and set research for mining to use the gold followed (probably) by AH for the sheep.

You wont be able to mine that gold until you got enough spare food from fp´s. I´d build 1/2 extra quechuas while growing. While I still haven´t made my mind I think cottages would be better than farms for those fp´s. Also note that while sheep would contribute to alleviate unhealthiness, being on a river hill plain, after pastured they´ll generate 3F/2H/2C, so nothing exceptional foodwise.

We may not want to follow with bronze working as that obseletes our UU.
Good point. But then we won´t be able to chop and poprush in the meantime?

About researching I would consider to start with meditation then wheel/pottery, b4 mining then priesthood/writing (AH somewhere in here?) while trying for an oracle "alphabet" slingshot that could prove useful if we find enough neighbours early (that is, apart from the one(s) we´ll be stealing workers from ;) ). I was lucky enough to manage a CS slingshot last GOTM on monarch, I suppose it is unlikely on Emperor, right?

Of course that are my first impressions, all can change after listening from the more experienced forumers. :mischief:

My 2¢.

Got to admit that Emperor scares me. I suffered a loss at my first GOTM last month and it was Monarch. I've yet to complete a Monarch game, let alone even try Emperor. I'll give it a go though :suicide: I'm still relatively new at Civ4 so forgive me if this sounds noobish. Why not settle one spot west? Settling on that forrest spot would still allow you to take advantage of all the visible resources plus allow you to eventually cottage the flood plains in the starting position. You'd also still get one of the two possible floodplains to the south of the visible region. I guess you'd miss out on a future chop by moving west. However, I've never really been good about chopping with any consistency anways :confused: Anyhow, all of those floodplains with cottages and that gold sets us up for a great commerce capital... and opens up the door for lots of :whipped:

With the flood plains, I'll probably save the forests for health reasons and work the capital to produce wealth and science. I'm not sure exactly how to play the early game yet. I expect to build a quecha first, then a worker. After that I expect to get out a settler which may be proceded or followed by another quecha, depending. I might try for an early religion, then mining and bronze. Work the sheep and gold. I think I'll need to road the gold to get the happy, so wheels will need to be researched, too. The starting quecha will head north to look for wooded cities sites and meet the neighbors.

Test games tonight. Maybe a quecha rush?

Bronze working doesn't obsolete the quecha, does it? I'm pretty sure that last night I could build quecha, sword or axe.

I'm hoping that the second city will be in the forest and I'll be able to chop the oracle.

Definitely a very nice starting position. That combined with a financial civ (and aggressive and with very early UU to help with barbs) I think should make this slightly easier than typical for an emperor game - I suspect that's deliberate because of the high difficulty level.

The gold should make for an easy COL slingshot even on this level, and the presence of rivers and starting with mysticism should make getting hinduism a realistic possibility (though still a lot down to chance).

One interesting point: The continents maptype means it's likely (though I guess not absolutely guaranteed) that an early conquest or domination victory will not be possible before astronomy. That means even people who want to go for early conquest are likely to have to focus on science to some degree (probably after conquering a reasonable part of the starting continent). Should make for some interesting different strategies as compared to previous GOTMs.

My immediate thoughts for what I'll be doing (I still have some days to think about it so may change my mind):

I'll:

Settle in place
Role out quechas initially and send them off to try and steal workers from nearby civs.
Research polytheism first (while making sure I'm working floodplains to speed the research) to try and get hinduism. Then I'll research mining (no longer emphasizing research) then priesthood.
Try and get a settler out fairly quickly to found a production-oriented city, that will start pumping out military
As soon as my capital has built the settler, focus on the Oracle (for CS slingshot).
Then beeline for cottage-spamming to get my science up while chopping settlers as fast as possible (the gold and cottaged floodplains should help to support reasonably rapid expansion).
Whoever I'm at war with, keep them weak by pillaging and using quechas to stop them hooking up any resources, but possibly won't try to take any cities till I have iron working. (Unless I build so many quechas that I decide I can afford to lose some. Taking cities with quechas is I think doable but only with overwhelming numbers and a high mortality rate).
As soon as I have spare capacity, start churning out missionaries and send them to anywhere I'm not at war with (for the gold from shrines). But unless I run into severe happiness problems I probably won't convert to anything myself for a while, because of the risk of losing open borders.


Because of the difficulty level, I probably won't try for CS slingshot, despite how useful it was in GOTM8. Too much risk of being beaten to the Oracle while researching COL, and on emperor difficulty level, that will hurt! Also CS slingshot does require you to neglect military somewhat until you have CS, which makes it harder to go worker stealing. And depending how far away the other civs are, may leave you unable to cope with the hordes of barbs that can be expected starting around 2000BC. (Though if other people do practice games and report back that CS slingshot is reliably achievable I may change my mind).

This'll definitely be a challenge for me - I usually play on monarch and struggle on emperor. But should be fun.

Hmmm. Well, Inca gives me SOME chance at emporer...not sure how much. ;)

Quecha SW. Settle in place or move 1N (maybe 1NW). Health becomes an issue on emporer with so many floodplains.

No early religion gambit for me. It is less than 50% odds, IMO. Research mining first...not sure whether I'll go BW or wheel next. I will definitely be using early cottages on a couple of the fp. Lack of early cottages + expanding too fast crippled my economy in the last game.

First builds will be Quecha...probably 2. I'll sacrifice some growth to get the first one out asap. Beyond that I'll have to decide whether to build a worker or if it is possible to steal one.

From my limited experience, early worker stealing is not a guarantee...it depends a lot on timing. If you can't steal a worker quickly, then it is best to build your own and try to ambush a settler for your second worker.

I like to fortify two Quecha on a hill/forest or forest/rivercross next to the AI capital with some opportunistic pillaging and force nothing but archers production (if you get there early enough). This cripples the AI from expanding but doesn't get you a worker. Sometimes the AI still gets out a settler in this camping strategy...I think it depends if it was in the build que before you get there and BW->slavery allows enough hammers to complete it.

Taking out a AI with Quecha is possible, but not if the AI capital is on a hill. If the AI founds an early religion (city defense bonus gets to 40% quickly) it also becomes problematic. You have to expend a lot of resources and time (barracks + 5-7 Quecha) to eliminate a AI early. I'm not sure it is worth it versus just crippling them with worker steal & settler ambush.

cas

Financial allows +1 commerce on any tile producing 2 or more, as well as double production speed banks.

By the way, patch 1.61 changed financial to not provide production bonus on banks.

As it looks to me, settling in place would make there be seven flood plains in the fat cross (it looks to me like S-S and S-SW are both flood plains). Great commerce, if you can deal with the unhealthiness. I will porbably move quecha one north and make a decsion whether to settle in place one N, or one NW.

Well i made some mistake, if someone is interested the following is perfectly similar to the official start (for what we can see)

133835

i'm now playing this practice game and:
1) founded buddhism (first tech researched)
2) built quechua first, worker 2nd while researching mining and the wheel
3) built Oracle in 1150 BC, for MC
4) barbarians come in vawes :eek: we need a lot of units to keep them away
5) stolen a worker, but i'm afraid this will break tech trading (usually i'm not early warmogering, perhaps I got to learn)

I'm seriously thinking about adventurer class, this time: the 15% cut in score can be hugely compensated by the advantage, as i've seen with a try in GotM8 (after my submission)

I'm seriously thinking about adventurer class, this time: the 15% cut in score can be hugely compensated by the advantage, as i've seen with a try in GotM8 (after my submission)

Just to point out the obvious, the 15% score reduction isn't supposed to be enough to offset the adventurer bonuses. Any good player would do much better from the adventurer start, despite the score bonus. The point is that only relatively inexperienced players are supposed to be playing with these bonuses.

I played blubmuz's sample file and he's not kidding about the barbarians.
It is a very good starting position, but I only found 2 cities before the
barbs started attacking in force and had to focus exclusively on militaty.
I killed like two dozen with a mix of quechuas, archers and chariots - no copper.
They came from every direction and there was always 6 or so on the screen at a time. They overwhelmed me in about 1500 BC.

I love the GOTM... Thanks to the staff. If I were more computer savvy, I'd offer to help. But it's also lots of fun running the practice games, so thanks for setting them up, blubmuz and others.

Oddly, I played HC last night for the first time! Can I see the future?! Probably... I see myself getting my butt kicked on Emperor!

I almost expected the staff to save Huayana for the (probably) upcoming Deity game, he's strong. Who does that leave then? Mansa and Mao?
As for this game, I think an early religion would be a good thing. The happiness, the culture growing, defending and fog-busting, and not least keeping the AI from having it. I like to play the haves vs. the AI have-nots :)
I'm concerned about too much floodplain. The start position is a swamp with eventually 7 floodplain tiles in it's radius. @ .4 unhealthiness per floodplain = -3 health? Moving w/nw to the grass tile would leave only 3 floodplains in the radius, so we 'gain' 2 health. And we don't waste a floodplain by settling on it. And maybe there's some corn or more gold or forest up here... Is all this worth delaying the capitol a turn? I'm inclined to move, but I may change my mind.
Other than that, I can see farming an fp first and then cottaging it later, why not? And we control a cornucopia of food right at the start. I'll think about the Monarchy slingshot, together with the 'bonus' health we could grow some large towns.

No sign of the HOF-GOTM then ... :sad:

In fact there are 5 if you count the tile the settler is on now. But due to unhealthiness penalties (-1 from each 4 fp, right?) I guess a clever move would be to settle 1N so you keep 4 fp and all the 3 special resources, while escaping from additional unhealthiness from those (likely) southern fp´s and getting those foggy northeastern forests in our capital´s fat cross.

Actually, I think FP's give .4 unhealthiness a pop, rounded down. So 3 fp's are 1 unhealthy, 5 are 2, and 7 are 3. Moving 1n would save you a health (but might cost you food.)

I'm not sold on moving the settler. Floodplains are key for financial civs because they're both +food and can be cottaged for 3C right off the bat. On the other hand, we don't see any granary health resources, so health could be a problem... still, at small sizes you can keep working fp's and growing while unhealthy since the +food counterattacks the unhealthiness. We could grow our capital to size 8 just working the sheep+floodplains cottages+gold for some serious commerce.

I'm still debating the opening - I'll need a few cracks at that starting position, thanks Blub! - but I'm considering using the Oracle to discover Monarchy. The happiness will be more helpful in the short-term than CoL.

Speaking of financial trait, I see our sheep are on a river. It's nice to get 3C and a pair of hammers from a food source :)

No sign of the HOF-GOTM then ... :sad:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4324484&postcount=157

I'm inclined to move quechua SW. If this reveals a resource, then settling 1W or 2W is very reasonable, IMHO. Keeping the wine in the fat cross is not so important.

I tried the BLuB game (thanks!!) and got the CS Slingshot around 1200BC.

I had a couple of Quechua harrassing Louis quite successfully, however they were killed by multiple barb attacks, not Louis.

No trading with Louis as a result.

Later I got the Wave After Wave of barbs, which basically shut down my development.

I think this game is broken WRT barbs.

Apparently, every unit built is going to have to be a fog buster.

Bronze working doesn't obsolete the quecha, does it? I'm pretty sure that last night I could build quecha, sword or axe.

I'm hoping that the second city will be in the forest and I'll be able to chop the oracle.

Quechas are not obsolete until Macemen. :D

Quechas are not obsolete until Macemen. :D
Post the quechas on hills and let the barb archers attack. There will be promotions. Upgrade the top ones to macemen. Attack!

(Of course, the barb axemen might be trouble. Make that wooded hills.)

July's game being my first ever Monarch game, I feel a bit afraid to take this on (even though I did finish the Monarch game succesfully). Oh well, if I can find the time I guess I'll give it a try.

I haven't heard anyone about the Epic speed this is set on....what does that for strategies/starts? (hardly ever played epic and never emperor, so curious to hear from more experienced members)

One more thing, I expect Warlords in a couple of days. Once I install it, can I still boot the game as just normal Civ and play this? (In other words, does Warlords have it's own .exe file? I guess it must have, but still would like to be sure)

Well i made some mistake, if someone is interested the following is perfectly similar to the official start (for what we can see)


starting screenshot shows the gold hill with 2P+1C. does your file have 1F+1P+1C (plains hill versus grassland?)

cas

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4324484&postcount=157
Thanks! Sounds like a great solution.

starting screenshot shows the gold hill with 2P+1C. does your file have 1F+1P+1C (plains hill versus grassland?)

cas

Another mistake ... damn ... :blush: thank you, i'll fix it.

I did not dare the CS slingshot, but in a practice i'll try.
and could be better settle 1W or 1 NW, at least we can get one more hill, and maybe farm 1 fp

HighDesert

I did nothing about barbs, just selected map options ... maybe in the official game they are less annoying ...
BTW in the notes Ainwood do NOT mention their level.

I played blubmuz's sample file and he's not kidding about the barbarians.
It is a very good starting position, but I only found 2 cities before the
barbs started attacking in force and had to focus exclusively on militaty.
I killed like two dozen with a mix of quechuas, archers and chariots - no copper.
They came from every direction and there was always 6 or so on the screen at a time. They overwhelmed me in about 1500 BC.

I played it too. Got fed up with the barb bonaza pretty quickly. You know something is wrong when they come in stacks.

I did manage to get a CS slingshot and got the GL with by :whipped: 5 pop worth.

Can anyone make out the tile 3 N of the settler, I can't quite see on my laptop screen. And it looks like a desert hill north of the gold and grassland hill NW, correct me if I'm wrong.

I know that sometimes gold shows up in pairs, and gold likes showing up on desert hills, so it might be worth sending my Quecha NW to check it out along with the tiles to the West. I am hoping for a food resource somewhere to the west and if that is the case, I will settle either NW or 2W on the grassland/hill/river tile. Otherwise I will probably settle in place and hope for the best, making the sheep a high priority for health reasons.

My plan will be an early religion(Happiness is a serious problem on emperor) then mining/BW. Quecha rush if nearby neighbor, otherwise steal a worker and try to settle bronze before getting swarmed with barbs. Hopefully we will be near a coast or 2.

Is Buddhism worth going for on emperor or should I go Polytheism?

July's game being my first ever Monarch game, I feel a bit afraid to take this on (even though I did finish the Monarch game succesfully). Oh well, if I can find the time I guess I'll give it a try.

I haven't heard anyone about the Epic speed this is set on....what does that for strategies/starts? (hardly ever played epic and never emperor, so curious to hear from more experienced members)

One more thing, I expect Warlords in a couple of days. Once I install it, can I still boot the game as just normal Civ and play this? (In other words, does Warlords have it's own .exe file? I guess it must have, but still would like to be sure)

I'd give it a try if I were you, the last Emperor GOTM I went ahead and played despite the fact I'd never even won on Prince, and not only did I hang in there, I was only 4 spaceship parts away from victory...I also learned a ton of stuff that helped my middle game.

Epic speed is funner, to me at least. It makes the game longer, makes it a little more forgiving for mistakes, and also gives builders a chance to compete with warmongers militarily.

Finally, from what I've heard from everyone, Warlords gives a second .exe just like Conquests did, which would let you play 1.61 and Warlords.

Hmm... Is that Jungle of the screen to the west or forest? If jungle then scratch the idea of settling west.

I know that sometimes gold shows up in pairs, and gold likes showing up on desert hills, so it might be worth sending my Quecha NW to check it out along with the tiles to the West.

Good point. I'd feel pretty stupid settling in place, or 1W or 2W, if it turns out there's another gold just north of what we can see.

Epic speed is funner, to me at least. It makes the game longer, makes it a little more forgiving for mistakes, and also gives builders a chance to compete with warmongers militarily.

Surely this is backwards. Epic speed heavily favors warmongers. Builders are more competitive at normal speed.

I know that sometimes gold shows up in pairs, and gold likes showing up on desert hills, so it might be worth sending my Quecha NW to check it out along with the tiles to the West. I am hoping for a food resource somewhere to the west and if that is the case, I will settle either NW or 2W on the grassland/hill/river tile. Otherwise I will probably settle in place and hope for the best, making the sheep a high priority for health reasons.


Gold isn't that common in a starting location and this is the 2nd GOTM in a row that gold has been there. I wouldn't want to actually accuse anyone of anything ;) , but you might consider the possibility that that Gold isn't a natural occurance. If not then it's less likely there's more of it around.

But that is a good point, it's well worth checking North with the quecha before settling in place.

Is Buddhism worth going for on emperor or should I go Polytheism?

Polytheism is usually safer since fewer AI's seem to go for it. Neither one is guaranteed though. If you are going for it, make sure you are working a gold-generating tile during those turns.

I played blubmuz's sample file and he's not kidding about the barbarians.
It is a very good starting position, but I only found 2 cities before the
barbs started attacking in force and had to focus exclusively on militaty.
I killed like two dozen with a mix of quechuas, archers and chariots - no copper.
They came from every direction and there was always 6 or so on the screen at a time. They overwhelmed me in about 1500 BC.

Welcome to emperor level :crazyeye: You seriously have to have units out fogbusting to avoid swarms of barb invasions. Also, after about 2000BC you're taking a big risk if you don't have two units accompanying (or at least guarding the way) for each settler. That's also one reason why I plan to chop settlers as fast as I can - to get a core of cities founded before the barb onslaught starts, and why I'm keen on getting the COL slingshot - the high culture will help a lot there. The good side is quechas will be able to hold off archers fairly easily, though you will need something more before the barb axemen start appearing (about 1000BCish I think).

If it's any comfort just remember the AI civs will be encountering just as many barbs. And think of the sense of achievement you'll have if you're still alive in about 500AD, by which time AI expansion should have crowded out the barbs...

Surely this is backwards. Epic speed heavily favors warmongers. Builders are more competitive at normal speed.

yes, if they want to compete in terms of speed to warmongers for peaceful victories...but if a builder wants to attempt a conquest or domination victory, epic makes it easier for us not used to building tons of troops to do so and succeed.

Gold isn't that common in a starting location and this is the 2nd GOTM in a row that gold has been there. I wouldn't want to actually accuse anyone of anything ;) , but you might consider the possibility that that Gold isn't a natural occurance. If not then it's less likely there's more of it around.

But that is a good point, it's well worth checking North with the quecha before settling in place.

:lol: last GOTM we started out with one, but I had the other two hills next to it 'discover' gold before 1000BC. That and the adventurer bonus may have slightly skewed my dominance over the AI :sad:


Polytheism is usually safer since fewer AI's seem to go for it. Neither one is guaranteed though. If you are going for it, make sure you are working a gold-generating tile during those turns.

I never go for buddhism because it seems like it is preferred by every spiritual AI except for Saladin and Huayna.

Holy Barbarians, Batman!

Wow... that was a massive onslaught!

well I am going to use the oracle to get monarchy to offset the unhappiness, that makes the wine worthwhile.

think about why it is there. Monarchy is begging to be gotten.

well I am going to use the oracle to getmonarchy to offset the inhappiness, that makes the wine worthwhile.

If you build your capital with the wine outside your fat cross, you'll still get it within your cultural borders by 1720 BC. Are you planning to get Monarchy before then??

As a tile to work, the wine is no better than a floodplain/cottage.

I've been playing that simulated start file for the last few hours and am managing to hang around... just barely though. I quickly rushed three UU to Louis' land and captured a settler. I razed all of the city improvements in his fat cross and then fortified in a forrest adjacent to his capital. He spent the next several turns sending archers out and giving XP to my UUs. I eventually had to peace treaty to bring my units back to the capital to help deal with the barb onslaught. It's 875AD now, but I still only have my capital. I once founded a second city, but the barbs quickly razed it. I was then able to capture a barb city with a stack of swords, but Louis quickly took it because I moved my stack away to take another barb city. Guess I shouldn't have ticked off Louis early on :( It's looking more and more like I'll have to take the Adventurer's bonus on this difficulty.

DaviddesJ, I think Tech Step meant that he wanted to be able to make a winery on it to increase his happiness limit, not to get it for commerce or anything.

Otherwise I will probably settle in place and hope for the best, making the sheep a high priority for health reasons.


Isn't Sheep a hapiness resource (not health)? At least, that is what the manual says. I have not had a chance to fire up the game to check.

I think sheep is health, since it is a food resource.

Is sheep representing food? Or wool? Which, like silk, would be a happiness resource.

according to the Civilopedia, Sheep gives +1 food, adding a pasture gives +2 food, +1 commerce, and effects are +1 health.

ok...I just played up to 2300BC on that start...I wasn't trying to do anything except check out the barbs and worker stealing...

Elizabeth was protecting her worker with an archer, but I went ahead and declared war...lost my first quechua on her archer, and they both retreated into her city, where I camped my second quechua outside on a forested hill.

That didn't help, as my quechua only took down one of her archers before dying.

I didn't get to declare war on Louis, because the 3 quechuas I sent toward him all got bogged down in the jungle/forest on the way up to him thanks to a glut of barb animals. By 2600BC, I had already seen 2 barb warriors, but killed them both. Then a bar archer appeared near Cuzco(luckily I saw it 4 spaces away because of my culture) He ignored my city, but happily went after my quechuas and the scout I popped from a hut.

By 2300BC, I'd lost 3 units to barbs, 2 to vicky, had one city, no workers, and had only managed to research Poly, Mining, Wheel, AH. Oh yeah, and I still saw 6 bar units around my remaining troops.

Good point. I'd feel pretty stupid settling in place, or 1W or 2W, if it turns out there's another gold just north of what we can see.

I'm not a big fan of working multiple gold tiles in the capital. They give a nice boost in the short term, but in the long term cottages are better. The only thing that could convince me to move W,NW (or W or W,W) is more food resources.

Floodplains, gold and quechuas on Emperor!!!! What is left for the Inmotal and Deity games, then? I expected to have this start at Deity.

I won't be pillaging with my quechuas. I want the AI to set up well developped cities for me.

I'm not sure about producing a settler. It would be nice to not produce a single one in the whole game, taking AI cities instead. But I fear that lack of production in the capital will slow down my quechua birth rate. Poprushing quechuas is not very effective, either.

For me, August+Epic is a bad combination. I hope I will have the time to complete the game when I am back to my computer. What can be the quickest real-time plan? Culture again? Conquering the continent and pressing enter till the ship is completed?

EPIC???

This turns the game from an enjoyable experiance into a boring slug-a-thon (man V AI, man also V boredom).

James

EPIC???

This turns the game from an enjoyable experiance into a boring slug-a-thon (man V AI, man also V boredom).

Stop whining, some of us LOVE the slow speeds. I usually play MARATHON speed at home.

Epic = :king: :goodjob: :band: :thanx: :dance:

I'm not a big fan of working multiple gold tiles in the capital. They give a nice boost in the short term, but in the long term cottages are better. The only thing that could convince me to move W,NW (or W or W,W) is more food resources.

Isn't the short term a lot more important than the long term? 3h+8c seems awfully good, compared to 3f+(4-5)c, for the phase of the game when we're able to work only a half-dozen tiles, or less.

Food is always good, but I would argue we're already looking at +6 food, with no farms; perhaps another food resource is not so important.

Food is always good, but I would argue we're already looking at +6 food, with no farms; perhaps another food resource is not so important.
But then you're arguing for settling in place, which makes getting the second gold impossible.

I've tried some test starts, it looks like -2 health might not be enough by itself to force a move.

But then you're arguing for settling in place, which makes getting the second gold impossible.

Good point, if you move N to get a 2nd gold then you're going from +7 food to +5 food. That doesn't seem worth it.

If you could get a 2nd gold by moving W, then you would still be at +7 food. But that's not so likely.

Good point, if you move N to get a 2nd gold then you're going from +7 food to +5 food. That doesn't seem worth it.

If you could get a 2nd gold by moving W, then you would still be at +7 food. But that's not so likely.

If there are hills to the west of the visible area, would the quecha not be able to see them? So there is no gold in the north half of the fat cross if you move 1W. Could be anything on the other side of the sheep, but I do not think there can be a resorce adjacent to it, so I doubt there is anything in the south half of your new fat cross either.

Of course, you could move the settler NW,SW onto the hill. Gold, sheep, 3FP, and who knows what else. So I think I will start with the quecha moving SW, just to see.

Mining, AH, pottery and BW as my first 4 techs, just need to decide what order.

Well, I tried out a Quechua rush using the test start (thanks Blub :goodjob: ). Pumped out 5 quechuas initially and headed north to take out Paris (Bud Holy City) and Orleans, wiping out Louis in ~2000BC. Great start
BUT
I was then left with 2 cities both about 20 tiles away from and not connected to my relatively underdeveloped capital resulting in crippling maintenance and a research rate of 10-20%. Lots of frantic cottage building didn't really help this as the currency gains were offset against the cost of having to station Fogbusters outside my empire to reduce the waves of barbs and my research is limping along.

I'd be interested to hear the views of the good players on here on the benefits of the quechua rush, particularly if the enemies cities aren't close by. Sure, I've knocked out a rival already, but only at the expense of crippling my own research. Perhaps I'd have been better razing the cities, or instead using a few quechuas to pillage and harry a couple of opponents to slow their development while I consolidated mine? Or ignoring quechua altogether (although that does seem a waste of a UU)?

My practice game has went better than I expected it would so far.

Some things that I noted.

Your first bunch of Quechas have to be dedicated to fog busting or else the sheer numbers of barbarians will overwhelm you.

Cottages are a high prority if you want to maintain tech parity.

CS slingshot or MC slingshot are possible in the practice game but this may not be true in the real gotm game.

The AI cities tend to be lightly defended unless at war so you have plenty of time to build up a larger force but this could also change with having different leaders in the real gotm game.

From resource bubbles we´re on northern hemisphere,

I never realised you could tell what hemisphere you were in by the resource bubbles - but going back and checking other GOTMs, you are quite correct.:goodjob:

Very useful info in deciding which way to send the quechua

I have been trying a few test starts, including the one someone put up here (thanks) and some more just by regenterating the map until I get an inland start with either floodplains ocasionaly getting gold as well. I seem to have settled in starting by producing 2 Quechuas then either usualy a worker. I send the quechelas off in three different directions looking for a nearby CIV and sitting for a worker steal. If A nearby civ is present then I send two of the three queschelas there.
For tech I have found that you can usualy get polythism first if you work the floodplains. I then go after mining, Wheel, pottery At this point depending on location of enemy's go BW, IW for swordsmen, placing 2-3 city near iron or religion rout if I have hindu and other civs are far away.

I have found an all out quechua rush, though it can be effective costs to much for further deveopment. They are very good though At taking out workers, Archers escourting settlers and smaller secondary cities.

I'd be interested to hear the views of the good players on here on the benefits of the quechua rush, particularly if the enemies cities aren't close by. Sure, I've knocked out a rival already, but only at the expense of crippling my own research. Perhaps I'd have been better razing the cities, or instead using a few quechuas to pillage and harry a couple of opponents to slow their development while I consolidated mine? Or ignoring quechua altogether (although that does seem a waste of a UU)?

I'm not very experienced with emperor, but from my limited experience I know that it is not worth taking cities which are far away from your capital. The maintenance costs will hurt you more than those cities will help you. It is probably worth it to raze those cities in order to get rid of your opponent, but that also leaves more room for barbs and for other civs to expand. It is a tough call.

I'd say that the quecha rush is very effective if your enemy is close by, otherwise quechas should be used for scouting/barb busting/worker stealing. Wait until axemen and perhaps COL before you start stealing cities. An Oracle COL slingshot could be useful here but you might not have time for it.

EDIT: By the way, when I say the enemy should be close, I mean CLOSE... Like seeing his border when your border expands.

Actually, I think FP's give .4 unhealthiness a pop, rounded down. So 3 fp's are 1 unhealthy, 5 are 2, and 7 are 3. Moving 1n would save you a health (but might cost you food.)


You're completely right, but my point was to emphasize my (debatable) decision to limit -1 unhealth penalty by having up to 4 fp's in fat cross.

Anyways, I also tried Blub’s start save yesterday. I started pumping quechuas and managed to steal 1 worker from each neighbor and despite the long distance, thanks to jungle policemen :cool: they made it to their new homes safely. I played up to about 800BC. In the meantime I stationed 1 quechua near London pillaging everything. I intended to do the same in France but that guy got unlucky and was killed on duty. :( Due to those different circumstances, France scores soared while England was kept below mine all the time. In real game I´ll try to keep the closest neighbors under check at all times in early game.

While that was happening in foreign lands, back home I was able to get capital (Buddhist holy city) size 6 working the gold mine, sheep and 4 cottaged fp´s. 2nd city was size 5 and about to start axemen from new barracks. Oracle CS slingshot completed around 900BC. Barbarians, while a nuisance were kept under control. They even founded a barb city nearby, just asking to be taken with axes. Last time I checked statistics and I had killed some 20 archers and 5 warriors, mostly barbs, with few losses. Not sure if from that point on, thing would change for worse, but I think so.

Besides that test save, I also tried a handful of random starts with gotm9 settings, everytime map generator gave me 2 large continents both resembling America, stretching from North to South, separated by miles and miles from each other by the ocean. Each continent had 3 or 4 civs.

Conclusions? Even with a 50/50 chance I still think I’ll go for an early religion (not sure which) for happiness/cultural purposes before worker techs (wheel, pottery, mining, AH and BW) as it will take a while for them to arrive home. Also I don't think diplomatic penalties would matter, the neighbors will be already annoyed at me ;) .

But I’ll have to forget my original plans on alphabet, useless here for a while. Having never played Emperor before, I wonder if, in the unlikely event of my initial plans work properly and I succeed at controlling my neighbors, that would be enough to keep up with the guys at the other side of the world. :confused:

Conclusions? Even with a 50/50 chance I still think I’ll go for an early religion (not sure which) for happiness/cultural purposes before worker techs (wheel, pottery, mining, AH and BW) as it will take a while for them to arrive home. Also I don't think diplomatic penalties would matter, the neighbors will be already annoyed at me ;)

I thought the early religion gambit would be <50% but with several practice games Budhism is probably 50% shot working a floodplain and there is a very good chance of getting Hinduism. However, working a fp makes your first Quecha take forever, so I will probably work the sheep until the first Quecha pops and then switch to fp. Quecha -> Quecha -> worker (may wait until I grow to size 3). And it DOES take a while for the stolen worker to get back home...especially if you take it safe & slow to avoid animals. So now I'm thinking of going Polytheism -> mining -> either BW or wheel.


Elizabeth was protecting her worker with an archer, but I went ahead and declared war...lost my first quechua on her archer, and they both retreated into her city, where I camped my second quechua outside on a forested hill.

That didn't help, as my quechua only took down one of her archers before dying.

I generally work the Quecha in pairs. When worker stealing, a lot of it is luck/timing. If they are escorted by an archer and on a hill or forest...your chances are pretty slim with a single Q. Best to wait until they are on flat ground or just send the 2 Q's next to the capital on a forest/hill. When the AI is down to 2 or less archers in the capital, it is very rare they attack...so that is when you pillage any improvements...then get back to the forest hill before another archer is produced. It is definitely a gambit...the RNG can be unkind and really screw you.

cas

In my practice game I was able to nab Buddism right away.

I first built a Quecha (let the city grow) then a worker.

My tech order: meditation, mining, animal husbandry, wheel, pottery, priesthood.

Another advantage in this game setup may be the jungle. If lucky, we'll be in a large enough temperate area to allow expansion while the jungle provides a buffer. Hopefully, the other civs will be on the other side of the jungle. In my test game on my map, the other civs needed to expand into the jungle to grow. That really slowed them down.

And, maybe we'll be placed so that the coastline reduces the land frontiers that need to be guarded.

The advice to pair-up the quechas is good. But a quecha on each worker if you can't get sentry-pairs posted to bust the fog and draw the barbs when they appear. And they will appear. The numbers will be huge if you haven't busted the fog.

Finally, in the several test games on different maps, getting Hinduism seems to be pretty easy. That will be my initial research. Confusianism is a reasonable expectation, too. I'll research to get Hinduism, then Mining, followed by Animal Hubandry, Wheels, Bronze Working in an order to be determined. Then, I'll research to the oracle and start building it, then research to Code of Laws. I don't expect to get the CS slingshot and would probably take Hereditary Rule if I got the oracle. The CoL, if lucky, would give Confusianism. If there isn't any copper, then I'll toss the plans and research to reveal iron or horses.

I think I got this correct (man, drawing rivers in Worldbuilder is pain! :( ). Have fun!

I think I got this correct (man, drawing rivers in Worldbuilder is pain! :( ). Have fun!

Much appreciated! I love the practice games, and it really helps not only with the GOTM, but overall.

How hard would it be to add a settler and a worker? I'm thinking the Adventure Class will at least get that... Can I do it myself using your game save? (I've never used Worldbuilder)

The first problem, as always, is starting location. Last month the answer seemed obvious. This month, I'm not sure.

One thing I noted--in Civgeek's practice build, you don't get the blue circle telling you to found in place. Is that indicative that something good IS in the three fog tiles SS SSE and SSW of the settler, or is it just a quirk caused by modding???

If there is nothing there, founding your capital NW seems attractive because of the extra forests you pick up. You don't lose a turn, and they give you a +2 health bonus at the start and lots of chops later on. The last game with the expansive trait sort of spoiled me with respect to health--I barely ever saw the green sick face the entire game, and when I did, it was trivial to set right. This game is going to be different. Without improvements, starting in place, we'll see sickness at size 4. Pasturing the sheep gives us just one more health. Unless there is a grain resource somewhere (that gets doubled with granary), I foresee health being an issue at least in the early game. If we mine the gold and found an early religion, that means we'll want to grow to size 6--maybe even size 7 with a temple--to max out our happiness. I understand that health isn't nearly the worry that happiness is, but it does have the potential to limit early growth here.

So keeping all of that in mind, would anyone consider exploring S with the settler on the first turn? If the move S shows nothing, go right back to the starting location and found the capital NW of there. If the move shows something, we could then use the second move of the first turn to go on the sheep square, and then go back and found in the original tile on turn 2. The one-turn delay is not quite as painful at epic speed. I don't think I'll do this, but it's a thought.

So, my first move is to go NW with the quecha. Assuming that he sees nothing new, what next.
(1) Found in place
(2) Found NW--gain all those forests, which are great in the early game. Lose a couple flood plains squares, which are good in the mid-late game when the city is a trading powerhouse working all the flood plains it can. You also risk losing resources down there.
(3) Spend a turn to explore with the settler to make an informed decision.

I'm leaing towards option 2, but it does make me very nervous. I would be absoultely sick if there were wheat or corn down there.

I know I'm just following the crowd, but here is one more save to check out once you do the other 2..... And yes, drawing rivers are a HUGE pain, especially if you want them to look right.

Have fun.

Thanks a bunch for all the practice saves. Should help a lot.

Much appreciated! I love the practice games, and it really helps not only with the GOTM, but overall.

How hard would it be to add a settler and a worker? I'm thinking the Adventure Class will at least get that... Can I do it myself using your game save? (I've never used Worldbuilder)
I enjoy them too. Adding units yourself is very easy, but would spoil the "unknown" since it is hard not to see the local map and resources when you open WorldBuilder. However, ask and yee shall receive ... (added an extra settler and a worker).

Generic GOTM question: On the # of Rivals setting, is that 6 total civs, including your own, or is that 6 OTHER civs?

And if I set everything as indicated in the setup, will I get the exact same starting position? Or is there a 4000 BC saved game to download?

Generic GOTM question: On the # of Rivals setting, is that 6 total civs, including your own, or is that 6 OTHER civs?

And if I set everything as indicated in the setup, will I get the exact same starting position? Or is there a 4000 BC saved game to download?

It's 6 other Civs, 7 including yourself.

And no, you shouldn't try to set up the game yourself as you'll get a completely different map - great to practice on but it won't be the actual GOTM. There will be an announcement (most likely on 1 August) giving the link where you can download the game.

The question of whether or not to Quecha rush is, to a large extent, dependent on what victory condition you are going for. If going for Domination or Conquest, Quecha rushing almost always makes sense, and the question becomes whether or not to keep the cities, which of course depends on how far away they are.

If going for Space Race, Culture, or Diplo, Quecha rushing makes much less sense, esp on a continents map, where you will only have 1-3 neighbors for early tech trading. Pissing off those neighbors means less trades, meaning a less than optimal research rate and little chance of achieving a really fast finish. On Deity, this is different since the AI settles so fast that Quecha rushing is useful just to get any decent cities at all. But on Emporer, we shouldn't have any problem founding some good cities nearby in the early game.

I enjoy them too. Adding units yourself is very easy, but would spoil the "unknown" since it is hard not to see the local map and resources when you open WorldBuilder. However, ask and yee shall receive ... (added an extra settler and a worker).

You... are my hero. (Heroine?) I can't wait to get home and give this one a try!

Wow, I've been playing Civgeek's save (THANKS) and am doing much better than I would have thought. Looking at the resource bubbles as suggested earlier, it was obvious that we are in the southern hemisphere. So, I went due north with my UU in the hopes of a quick rival encounter and a worker steal. This worked awesome. I stole the worker and carefully moved my UU and my new worker back home. In the meantime, I settled in place and hammered out a few UUs. I then had four (I think) UUs out busting the fog. I was able to research polytheism first for a quick religion. I founded a second city and then quickly captured two barb cities with axes and cats. Then, i founded my second religion (confusionism) and spread it to the rival I stole the worker from to ease tensions. I then founded my 5th city, and built a small stack of axes and cats. Ooops, almost forgot to mention that I also managed to pull off an Oracle-CS slingshot too! I was able to chop out the Sistine Chapel in case I decide to go cultural. Now, I'm taking my axes, cats, and a few swords and spears to my worker steal rival and have already captured 5 of his cities (razed 2). I'm now in about 800AD and poised to hopefully wipe him from the map... although he just managed to start making his UU :(. I think my goal will be to push towards gunpowder and steel and hopefully hit my second rival with some nasty cannons!

Regarding he health issues with the floodplains... it isn't that big of a deal. All the extra food from the fps make up for the -1 food from health issues. I quickly spammed three cottages, hooked up the gold and the sheep, and I was able to play with +1 unhappiness just fine. Then it became time for some MASSIVE :whipped:. This more than kept things in check for the early game health issues.

what do you mean by looking at resource bubbles? how exactly do they tell you what hemisphere you are in?

what do you mean by looking at resource bubbles? how exactly do they tell you what hemisphere you are in?

Well, first you toggle the show resources button on and you get the little bubbles with pictures above things like pigs and gold in our GOTM-9 start screen. The arrows connecting the bubble to the actual resource on the map ALWAYS point to the equator :goodjob:. Therefore, looking at our GOTM-9 start image, we will be starting somewhere north of the equator (northern hemisphere) on our continent. As such, we are more likely to encounter a rival civ somewhere south in GOTM-9 since there is more continent to the south of our start than north. Likely, the rival lies somewhere on our river if it's long. In Civgeek's mock file (Thanks Civgeek), the arrows point north, indicating that we are in the southern hemisphere. It made sense to move the Quecha due north to most quickly encounter a rival civ for a worker steal. Hope this all made sense. Make a game and try it yourself.

I ran another nine test shots to get a feel for the timing of some key events given GOTM9 settings.

Here were the results:

Wonder Completion date
Stonehenge
Min 1660BC
Median 1390BC
Max 745BC

Oracle
Min 1540BC
Median 1210BC
Max 565BC

Great Lighthouse
Min 910BC
Median 55BC
Max 185AD

Pyramids
Min 865BC
Median 595BC
Max 190BC

Parthenon
Min 430BC
Median 250BC
Max 260AD

Collossus
Min 400BC
Median 350AD
Max 785AD+

Great Library
Min 230AD
Median 485AD
Max 995AD


Religions
First Religion Founded:
Buddhism (8 out 9 times)

First Religion Founding Dates:
Min 3610BC
Median 3490BC
Max 3310BC

Second Religion Founding Dates
Min 3220BC
Median 3010BC
Max 2530BC

Barbarians
First non-animal Barbarian Unit Sighted:
Min 2320BC
Median 1420BC
Max Never

Comments:
As far as wonders go, it still looks like you have a decent shot at an Oracle slingshot although I haven't tested how much you can get done prior to about 1400-1500BC. I am hoping for something like a metalcasting slingshot.

For religions, you have a great chance of founding hinduism if you want to. Eight out of the nine random test games the AI went for Buddhism first. If the AI choose Buddhism, it never did hindu fast enough to prevent you from doing it.

For barbarians, it was greatly dependent on the map layout. If you had close AI neighbors, you could go the entire game without seeing any barbarians. If not they showed up pretty fast. Most games seemed to have 3-5 barbarians appearing between 2000bc and 1200bc if neighbors were not close by.

I haven't figured out my opening strategy yet, but I figured I would share this data to get a discussion going!

GS

As far as wonders go, it still looks like you have a decent shot at an Oracle slingshot although I haven't tested how much you can get done prior to about 1400-1500BC. I am hoping for something like a metalcasting slingshot.

I was easily able to achieve an Oracle-CS slingshot today in both my test games. I think that the jungles act to limit the early AI capabilities and make it possible on this difficulty level. That, and the AI also have to deal with those pesky barbs too! In this case, fog busting Quechas allow you to work towards the Oracle without being interupted by barbs.

Probably most of us are under GotM8 influence, where AI built wonders like candies having no better things to do.

With all that land to fill with settlers, and related archers and workers, probably wonders are not an AI priority, so Oracle and maybe SH are at hand.

I see more difficult Pyramids (unless we have stone) or GLightH, since our capital is not in the coast.

IMO a quechua rush, if we got a close neighbour worths the while, independently by your strategy: if we destroy a rival we have less settlers to produce, more resources and more land, and we can focus in the economy during the mid game, and decide later if continue warmonger or else.

Interesting the resource bubbles thing, never noticed.

I finally played a successful practice game. Barb busting is a lot more important than I originally thought. I have only seen 3 barbarians thanks to my quechas patroling the fog. I pulled off a COL slingshot in 1600 BC and I am the founder of both Hinduism and COL. Looking back, I don't think Hinduism is important if you are planning on an early COL. However if you want Metal Casting from the Oracle, then an early religion is almost mandatory. Happiness plus shrine gold is extremely helpful on emperor.

So do you guys think it is better to get COL or Metal Casting? Obviously CS would be ideal but lets be realistic...

So far in test, IF I can get a EARLY worker steal, then I have been hitting the CS slingshot with regularity (4 in 4 starts). HOWEVER, I have been beaten to the Oracle 3 out of 3 times when trying it without being able to nab an early worker, so proximity of the nearest neighbor might be critical.

Biggest issue is how close rivals are. It won't be hard to capture cities before bronze is hooked up, but it will be hard to keep distant cities before courthouses.

I probably won't build anything but quechas until everyone gets bronze hooked up. Steal workers and capture new cities. Goal is to elimanate at least two rivals early.

Biggest issue is how close rivals are. It won't be hard to capture cities before bronze is hooked up, but it will be hard to keep distant cities before courthouses.

I probably won't build anything but quechas until everyone gets bronze hooked up. Steal workers and capture new cities. Goal is to elimanate at least two rivals early.

Interesting plan. Personally I wouldn't build /only/ quechas, I'd put in a couple of archers, because, even without AIs hooking up bronze, you will get some barb axemen wandering around - quechas don't stand much chance against those.

Last night I tried a practice game in which I discovered Tokugawa about 15 squares away. My quecha circled round his borders looking for an available worker and got ravaged by a lion in the process. I waited till he recovered (10 turns, by which time I had a 2nd quecha there) before I declared war... There was an axeman in Kyoto. My quechas didn't live long after that... Can't recall what year this was but my research path had been polytheism-mining-bronze working and I was still 3 turns from hitting BW, so this was still very early. Certainly pre-2000BC. Turned out Toku had copper in his city radius; presumably he'd headed straight for BW.

So I guess the advice is: If you go to war with quechas, do it early and make sure you keep enough quechas around to stop your opponent hooking up either copper or horses (I guess if you don't have the techs to see where they are yet then just pillaging all mines and all pastures should do it).

btw if you do eliminate 2 rivals early, then there has to be at least a 50/50 chance that you'll end up alone on your continent.

in my one test game, Elizabeth researched BW first and adopted slavery around 3300BC!

I think I'll start out by building a couple quechas for fogbusting/exploring for neighbors. If there's a neighbor really close to me I'll worker steal from him(or attempt to at least) for a couple reasons...1)It will save me a number of turns of building my own worker, 2) it will hurt my nearest neighbor, causing him to be less likely to expand enough to bottleneck me early.

once I have an early religion, worker, and a few quechas fogbusting, I'll focus on some wonders...I'm really not very good at the CS-slingshot, I rarely get it on Noble because I don't like focusing my efforts so minutely, so I'll probably try for a CoL, Alphabet, or MC slingshot instead.

Thx Gr8Scott for the data

Personally I am not a great fan of a slingshot with HC. The quechas are so overpowering early on that it seems a waste to give up an early war to build oracle. My bet is that they did not give us HC with this huge start to put us out of reach of any AI. So I think scouting important and maybe a steal--get a couple quechas out while letting city grow and go for hindu.

I am trying a randomly generated map (settings the same as GOTM) on emperor, and it is not going well. It's barb-a-rama. I've had to re-load and reinvent my tactics quite a few times to even get to the ADs, and I won't be able to do that in the GOTM.

Normally you can't play the adenturer class if you've finished in the top half of any GOTM, which I might have just squeezed into at some time. Is that ruling more flexible on this month's game?

OK, GotM 6 and 7 result published (thanks Ainwood), so my thought to play adventurer is gone (probably it was just a thought).

OTOH i downloaded the best players saves, and i've seen an interesting tech path: straight for alphabet, traded cheap techs, straight to CS slingshot.

Unfortunately we are not able to see all combat events but the last ones :mad: , so we hardly can imagine how their wars was fought.

I'll try some of this in my practice game, in the meantime i'm practicing with Warlords.
BTW BlueMarble graphics (latest version) is highly suggested, the original graphics colours are astonishing (you can loose your eyesight :p )

One last thing about Warlords: I supposed to found a bug (sorry Alan :blush: ), but i discovered that Uranium is revealed and workable with Physics, but not usable as combustible until fission (this differs from vanilla and is not mentioned in the documentation)

OTOH i downloaded the best players saves, and i've seen an interesting tech path: straight for alphabet, traded cheap techs, straight to CS slingshot.


I must be missing something fundamental... How can you see their tech-path? Can you also see their espansion (when which city was founded) path?

A real problem I'm having in test games is that - even if there is copper nearby - it's very hard to get it hooked up and get any axemen out before the barb axemen start appearing, and at that point if I don't have something more than quechas I'm sunk. Often I can get a 2nd city built near the copper and get it hooked up, but it invariably gets pillaged by an axeman before I can build my first axeman. I'm starting to think I may have to modify my tech path to get to archery early on. Either that or make it a rule that the 2nd city always gets founded on top of the copper, no matter how unfavourable that location might be in every other respect.

At the moment I'm mostly focussing on polytheism - mining - bronze working. I'm reluctant to give up doing polytheism first because getting hinduism does seem extremely reliable and I'm sure the religion will be useful. Not quite sure how to work it but I may try a couple of test games based on polytheism - mining - hunting - archery - bronze working. Then try and beeline for Oracle (that's pushing priesthood a bit late in my test games but then mostly they don't have gold in the city radius).

I must be missing something fundamental... How can you see their tech-path? Can you also see their espansion (when which city was founded) path?

Yes, in the "event log" (the icon in the upper left) you can see everything but the old combat events.
Of course if you see 4 techs discovered in, say, 2 turns is obvious the player has traded (you can't see what and who).

ahhh one of the files i DL was your one :goodjob: .

Anyway this would be a good strategy (i mean the tech path) in the pangea map, probably won't works on archipelago or continents.

Thanks,

I have to admit I have never noticed that button!

To be honest, it is not so much their tech I am interested in, but more their exact expansion pattern. When I have some time, I will have to compare it to mine and see where exactly the top boys managed to outstrip me.

Hmm. Those Quecha's don't seem to be very good. My first one, forested-hill fortified and woodsman 1, was killed immediately by the first barb Archer.
Around 2000bc droves and droves of barb Archers and Warriors started to converge on my capital. My Quecha outposts, also forested-hill fortified, were all killed on the first blow by barb Warriors.

What game setting is driving the large number of barbs?

Our second try was much better. This time I built a barracks first and the barbs were more timid. They built cities all around us but didn't get out much. :)
We managed the CS slingshot as late as 1120bc.

What game setting is driving the large number of barbs?

emperor: gives more and tougher barbarians
jungle: slows expansion and exploration of the land by both AI and human
low sea level: more land area compared to sea area which gives more land to explore and thus, more land for barbs to spawn

What game setting is driving the large number of barbs?

If I'm reading the numbers right, on Emperor a barb spawns every 20 turns for each 35 tiles of unowned land. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=161282 Handicaps table at iUnownedTilesperBarbarianUnit and iBarbarianCreationTurns Elapsed.

By comparison, on Monarch a barb spawns every 25 turns for each 40 tiles of unowned land. For Prince it its every 30 turns for each 50 unowned tiles.

I'm sure there are other factors which affect the number of barbarians, the type and where they appear, but those look like the main two.

I would like to listen other players comments about Oracle:

In my test games I always found Buddhism and always was able to use Oracle for CS slingshot, but:
- Only stealin a worker I was able to build a 2nd city before Oracle since I has 8 (eight) quechuas guarding cities and fogbusting,
- I was in serious danger with only Quechuas to defend (DynamicSpirit has the same doubt, if i'm not wrong),
- Unless some good resource is under the hidden tiles (or needs a tech), Cuzco is not a "powerhouse" so perhaps doesn't worth the double risk (1st risk been beaten on Oracle, 2nd risk been seriously damaged, if not destroyed by Barbs).

So i'm oriented for a MC slingshot, and to research optics ASAP, of course i'll make the final choice after i'll see the actual GotM9.

A real problem I'm having in test games is that - even if there is copper nearby - it's very hard to get it hooked up and get any axemen out before the barb axemen start appearing, and at that point if I don't have something more than quechas I'm sunk.

It seems from my test games that barb axemen only start to appear when I start making axemen. If I delay making axemen and concentrate on quechuas and archers, then the barbs will all be warriors and archers. Thus rushing to build axemen for barb defense may be counter-productive.

It seems from my test games that barb axemen only start to appear when I start making axemen. If I delay making axemen and concentrate on quechuas and archers, then the barbs will all be warriors and archers. Thus rushing to build axemen for barb defense may be counter-productive.

Is a coincidence: in my games they start to appear after i get BW, with copper beeing mined, if not before i got BW (not sure).
For what i know barbs produces units when a given number of civs knows (and only knows) the related tech.

Hi all,

I have played six trial games to test different strategies to accomplish a CS slingshot. I played three maps (two from this forum, thanks!) with correct settings and start terrain. The earliest date for Oracle was:

Oracle : 1300 BC
Build: Quechua, Worker, Quechua, Quechua, Quechua, Oracle
Research: Polyteism, Mining, Wheel, Pottery, Priesthood, Writing, CoL
Improve: Gold, Cottages (on flood plains)
Final city size: 4 + 75%
No huts explored and one worker stolen but was idle to avoid interference from random events.

Oracle : 1180 BC
Build: Quechua, Worker, Quechua, Quechua, Barracks, Quechua, Oracle
Research: Polyteism, Mining, Animal Husbandry, Wheel, Pottery, Priesthood, Writing, CoL
Improve: Gold, Pasture, Cottages (on flood plains)
Final city size: 6 + 30%
No huts explored and one worker stolen and used. The extra four turns were used to research A.H, improve Pasture and build Barracks.

Oracle : 1150 BC
Build: Worker, Quechua, Quechua, Quechua, Barracks, Quechua, Oracle
Research: Polyteism, Mining, Animal Husbandry, Wheel, Pottery, Priesthood, Writing, CoL
Improve: Gold, Pasture, Cottages (on flood plains)
Final city size: 5+ 30%
No huts explored and one worker stolen and used. The Oracle date was similar, but the delay to get my second Quechua reduces the chance to get a hut and steal a worker.

Oracle : 970 BC
Build: Quechua, Worker, Barracks, 5 x Quechua, Oracle
Research: Polyteism, Mining, Wheel, Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Bronze Working, Priesthood, Writing, CoL
Improve: Gold, Cottages (on flood plains), Pasture
Final city size: 6 + 20%
No huts explored and one worker stolen and used. The extra turns were used to research B.W, and build Quechuas.

Conclusions: Build Quechua, then worker. Steal worker. Skip B.W. Go for CS Slingshot.

Other notes:

Buddhism is <50% to get. On the other hand, I never converted to Hinduism due to enough happiness in capital, so Meditation will shave off up to three turns to Oracle. A.I. founds Buddhism as early as on turn 14 (3640 BC) and Judaism on turn 48 (2620 BC)

After Oracle, I converted to Confucianism and bureaucracy. The extra 50% research and production in capital means that for each two turns gained in Oracle data, I get one extra turn for free (roughly).

Animals show up on turn 8 (3790 BC).
Barbarians (warriors and archers) show up as early as on turn 44 (2740 BC). From then on, sentry Quechuas are necessary.
Barbarian axe-men show up later than turn 100 (~1000 BC)
It is important that the size of the capital is matched towards the health and happiness. Health increase from grown forests help, but food is not as limiting as unhappiness.

One basic idea with my strategy is that it should be independent of the GOTM -09 save-game. Stealing a worker or goodies from huts will improve the end year of the Oracle. Barbarian swarming may require another Quechua (or Barracks). A delay in production is not as harmful as a delay in research, since the forested hill can speed up production. Thus, I will build a Quechua first, and then a worker.

The final uncertainty is the leaders on the same continent (two or three). I noticed that if I am too aggressive (long war after worker is stolen), then the A.I. will not have any tech to trade, and not willing to trade those they have. So, by harassing the A.I. early on and preventing your nearest neighbor to expand will reduce the chance to trade technologies. Again, this depends on the A.I. leader.

I have attached my excel chart if anyone is interested in more details.

/Erkon

About techs trading: in 2 different games (mine and one of the other 2, tx)
after i destroyed the civ whose i stolen the worker, the other one NEVER traded a single tech :mad: and was PLEASED with me.
Otherwise, in a game where i only stolen the worker and made peace, i could trade with both my neighbours (the victim at end DoW on me, but traded).

Conclusion: Probably if we'll get 3 neighbours we'll can try to destroy one, otherwise better let it live, but expect a war (after trading, perhaps).

Hi all,

I have played six trial games to test different strategies to accomplish a CS slingshot. I played three maps (two from this forum, thanks!) with correct settings and start terrain. The earliest date for Oracle was:

Oracle : 1300 BC
Build: Quechua, Worker, Quechua, Quechua, Quechua, Oracle
Research: Polyteism, Mining, Wheel, Pottery, Priesthood, Writing, CoL
Improve: Gold, Cottages (on flood plains)
Final city size: 4 + 75%
No huts explored and one worker stolen but was idle to avoid interference from random events.

Oracle : 1180 BC
Build: Quechua, Worker, Quechua, Quechua, Barracks, Quechua, Oracle
Research: Polyteism, Mining, Animal Husbandry, Wheel, Pottery, Priesthood, Writing, CoL
Improve: Gold, Pasture, Cottages (on flood plains)
Final city size: 6 + 30%
No huts explored and one worker stolen and used. The extra four turns were used to research A.H, improve Pasture and build Barracks.

Oracle : 1150 BC
Build: Worker, Quechua, Quechua, Quechua, Barracks, Quechua, Oracle
Research: Polyteism, Mining, Animal Husbandry, Wheel, Pottery, Priesthood, Writing, CoL
Improve: Gold, Pasture, Cottages (on flood plains)
Final city size: 5+ 30%
No huts explored and one worker stolen and used. The Oracle date was similar, but the delay to get my second Quechua reduces the chance to get a hut and steal a worker.

Oracle : 970 BC
Build: Quechua, Worker, Barracks, 5 x Quechua, Oracle
Research: Polyteism, Mining, Wheel, Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Bronze Working, Priesthood, Writing, CoL
Improve: Gold, Cottages (on flood plains), Pasture
Final city size: 6 + 20%
No huts explored and one worker stolen and used. The extra turns were used to research B.W, and build Quechuas.

Conclusions: Build Quechua, then worker. Steal worker. Skip B.W. Go for CS Slingshot.

Other notes:

Buddhism is <50% to get. On the other hand, I never converted to Hinduism due to enough happiness in capital, so Meditation will shave off up to three turns to Oracle. A.I. founds Buddhism as early as on turn 14 (3640 BC) and Judaism on turn 48 (2620 BC)

After Oracle, I converted to Confucianism and bureaucracy. The extra 50% research and production in capital means that for each two turns gained in Oracle data, I get one extra turn for free (roughly).

Animals show up on turn 8 (3790 BC).
Barbarians (warriors and archers) show up as early as on turn 44 (2740 BC). From then on, sentry Quechuas are necessary.
Barbarian axe-men show up later than turn 100 (~1000 BC)
It is important that the size of the capital is matched towards the health and happiness. Health increase from grown forests help, but food is not as limiting as unhappiness.

One basic idea with my strategy is that it should be independent of the GOTM -09 save-game. Stealing a worker or goodies from huts will improve the end year of the Oracle. Barbarian swarming may require another Quechua (or Barracks). A delay in production is not as harmful as a delay in research, since the forested hill can speed up production. Thus, I will build a Quechua first, and then a worker.

The final uncertainty is the leaders on the same continent (two or three). I noticed that if I am too aggressive (long war after worker is stolen), then the A.I. will not have any tech to trade, and not willing to trade those they have. So, by harassing the A.I. early on and preventing your nearest neighbor to expand will reduce the chance to trade technologies. Again, this depends on the A.I. leader.

I have attached my excel chart if anyone is interested in more details.

/Erkon

Very good analysis.

I would guess that if you don't convert prior to getting alphabet you'll be more likely to trade techs with the AI you didn't steal the worker from. The gotm staff tends to remove huts so we can't count on them. The 2nd AI you meet will probably share a boarder with the AI you delcared on so you could probably bribe them into a war to open a second front.

I hardly have time to get one GOTM in, amazed at people that are running "6 test games" prior to GOTM even starting, lol.

I hardly have time to get one GOTM in, amazed at people that are running "6 test games" prior to GOTM even starting, lol.

True, but I suspect none of the test games are complete games, they are simply running through the early stages of the game to see what the best strategy to get your early civ established is - and that doesn't take long. I've done quite a few test games to try out different approaches, but I'm pretty sure the total time I'll have spent is still small compared to how long I'll spend playing the (complete) GOTM.

Am fairly new to CIV and have only played a few games so far (none at this level) so expect to have an early exit from my first GOTM. I have never tried to steal a worker before because I wasn't ready to make war. Doesn't the AI retaliate against your City or is it easy to make peace fairly soon? Do you wait to steal a worker after you have a couple warriers or just beeline with your first to the nearest AI you find?

I would like to listen other players comments about Oracle:

In my test games I always found Buddhism and always was able to use Oracle for CS slingshot, but:
- Only stealin a worker I was able to build a 2nd city before Oracle since I has 8 (eight) quechuas guarding cities and fogbusting,
- I was in serious danger with only Quechuas to defend (DynamicSpirit has the same doubt, if i'm not wrong),


You're not wrong. After a couple more tests I've moving towards, after bronze working, heading straight for archery UNLESS there is copper right next to your capital that you can hook up and build an axeman with straight away. Having archers and quechas combined makes a real difference to your defensive capabilities, and seems to mean you need fewer units fogbusting (which does quickly start to cost gold)


- Unless some good resource is under the hidden tiles (or needs a tech), Cuzco is not a "powerhouse" so perhaps doesn't worth the double risk (1st risk been beaten on Oracle, 2nd risk been seriously damaged, if not destroyed by Barbs).

So i'm oriented for a MC slingshot, and to research optics ASAP, of course i'll make the final choice after i'll see the actual GotM9.

Yeah that's the real issue for me with CS slingshot. I love the idea, and I can certainly see that if you can get CS that quickly, it'll give you a real boost in your game. But at the same time the risks of being overrun by barbs or being beaten to the Oracle are huge. COL (or MC) slingshot at least means you can get a settler out before you build the oracle, which means, if you can get a decent production-spot for your 2nd city, you can have something churning out military units while the Oracle is being built.

Incidentally in my last test game I had stone in the capital radius, so I ended up building the pyramids instead of the oracle. My gut impression was having the pyramids helped me a lot more than COL or MC slingshot would've done. Representation = much bigger cities early on. But without stone I probably couldn't have built them in the first place.

Well done to the GOTM staff for getting the results for 6+7 out, I'm impressed by the level of effort going into sorting out ~300 games a time. An apt smiley/game icon is :gp:

I still reckon I'll get immolated in the upcoming game as it is on Emperor, unless it is an extremely choice start location beyond what we can see.

My advice after trying a practise Emperor game is (this is coming from a Prince/Monarch level player, and aimed at other lower-tier players, so please don't berate me :) ) :

1. Barbarians are insane. Don't leave your military size behind or stick with quechas only. Quechas can certainly hold off archers, but are mediocre against warriors and fail miserably against barb axemen. Archers and/or axemen are needed (I prefer axemen). I aimed for bronze working very early and still only just got axemen in time.

2. The AI will expand very fast. Budget allowing, claim choice city sites asap.

3. Don't get despondent if the AI out grows you. I find at least 50% of my commerce and useful production comes from a minority of cities- its not your size, its what you do with it ;)

City specialisation is really important to maximise your cities' productivity. I'd love to build every building in every city, but it isn't a good plan. For instance, building Heroic Epic (is that the +100% military production one?) in one production city can give your army a real boost: I almost equalled the AI's "power" rating using just this one city to build military units constantly


4. Don't worry if you're behind on techs. If you're like me, its going to happen.
Researching alphabet before the AI then trading helps a lot, and then aim for the AI's lower priority techs. You won't get a "fair" swap on techs, but if you discover a tech early you can swap it for a smaller one from each agreeable civ, making a net gain over several trades.

Am fairly new to CIV and have only played a few games so far (none at this level) so expect to have an early exit from my first GOTM. I have never tried to steal a worker before because I wasn't ready to make war. Doesn't the AI retaliate against your City or is it easy to make peace fairly soon? Do you wait to steal a worker after you have a couple warriers or just beeline with your first to the nearest AI you find?

The AI won't come after you unless he has an extra archer floating around, and usually he doesn't. The AI will attack your stealing unit, though, and if the AI loses the battle, they will usually agree to peace unconditionally after 10-12 turns. If the AI wins the battle, they will want some compensation for peace (like a city or a tech), and that demand can last a long time, or until they lose at least an archer in a subsequent battle.

If you can manage to steal the worker very early and camp 2 or 3 quechas in a forest or jungle (or even better a forested or jungled hill) on a square adjacent to the AI capital (assuming it's their only city), you can sit there for SEVERAL turns while the AI attacks your stack with an archer every few turns. This makes for EASY xp on your quechas and lets you get a few axemen built to finish off the capital :lol:. I've used this to eliminate an AI very early in 2 of my 3 tests so far.

BLUE CIRCLE???

In the starting screenshot, there is a blue circle on the starting location... How can that be? I tried putting in everything I see on the image, and I never get a blue circle there... Adding resource in the tiles of the edge can move the blue circle, but I have not been able to get it to the starting square, as it always prefers either 1E or 1W... The ONLY way I have found to put a blue circle in place, is by puting strategic resource BOTH 1E, and 1W. Perhaps copper and horses, or something similar... Could the GOTM team really have given us THAT gigantic a start location? Or is there another arangement I am overlooking which produce this circle?

BLUE CIRCLE???

In the starting screenshot, there is a blue circle on the starting location... How can that be? I tried putting in everything I see on the image, and I never get a blue circle there... Adding resource in the tiles of the edge can move the blue circle, but I have not been able to get it to the starting square, as it always prefers either 1E or 1W... The ONLY way I have found to put a blue circle in place, is by puting strategic resource BOTH 1E, and 1W. Perhaps copper and horses, or something similar... Could the GOTM team really have given us THAT gigantic a start location? Or is there another arangement I am overlooking which produce this circle?

Have you tried replacing one of the copper or horses by something like uranium, oil, or aluminium?

Yes, that works as well... As long as I block BOTH the 1E and 1W square with some resource, then I get the blue circle in the center. No matter what the resources, this would give 7FP, Gold, Wine, Sheep and two strategic resource in the fat cross... That is a bit much to expect at random, but I guess if this is a set start, it is possible. Eitehr that, or I am missing some other tile combination which has an effect on the circles that I am not anticipating.

What about both 2E and 2W of starting location, or some combination of 2E and 1W or 1E and 2W? It would kind of stink to possibly have to chop those forests for say horses when we could really use them for health. It would be much more convenient to have to mine the hill 2W for something like copper.

Well, I certainly dont claim to have tried all possibilities, but everything I tried with resources 2 squares away from the starting spot resulted in the circle 1E or 1W... I think the system really hates "wasting" a FP by building on it, and always opts for the square next to it if it is a reasonable alternative. Of course, perhaps someone else can have better luck at finding some placement which works.

What about both 2E and 2W of starting location, or some combination of 2E and 1W or 1E and 2W? It would kind of stink to possibly have to chop those forests for say horses when we could really use them for health. It would be much more convenient to have to mine the hill 2W for something like copper.

Do copper or horses ever get placed under forest on the starting map? I can't recall it ever happening to me. And although Ainwood usually modifies the map, I think he normally does so in a way that's consistent with what the map generator tends to produce.

Do copper or horses ever get placed under forest on the starting map? I can't recall it ever happening to me.

Don't know. I've seen resources beneath jungle. I can't recall whether I've seen them under forest squares. Either way, it would be odd both squares contained late game resources. If it's modified, I'd assume at least one of the two is an early resource given the difficulty jump.

Isn't it usually a good idea to settle in place unless you need to move to access a nearby resource?

The AI won't come after you unless he has an extra archer floating around, and usually he doesn't. The AI will attack your stealing unit, though, and if the AI loses the battle, they will usually agree to peace unconditionally after 10-12 turns. If the AI wins the battle, they will want some compensation for peace (like a city or a tech), and that demand can last a long time, or until they lose at least an archer in a subsequent battle. From this and the follow-on post from bshumbera I think you are saying to take at least 2 warriors when you are attempting to steal a worker- one to escort back and one to confront any enmy reaction.

No, just the one warrior is enough. Escorting the worker back is a good idea. And remember the Incan warrior doesn't need to fear archers as long as he's healthy and walking the forests.

I've played a part of a game in practice. Having never dared to touch Emperor before, my eyes were opened to a couple of pecularities of emperor level, like the change up in gears of the barbarians - the instant someone has copper, axemen appear, and as soon as someone discovers ironworking, swordsmen appear. Ouch.

Anyhow, more particular to this game, the quechua rush seemed to work nicely. I found Rome about 15 tiles from my capital, and after having produced 5 quechua as the first builds in my capital, I captured Rome OK, then went on to burn down an English city, and keep London after capturing it. I left Elizabeth with one city and accepted peace.

As it turns out, me, Caesar and Ellizabeth were the only occupants of the continent, and wiping out one of them, and seriously crippling the other worked fine for a while. It hurt my economy running Rome and London at such a distance, but with careful management it wasn't too bad. What was baad was the resulting hoardes of barbarians. With minimal expansion from the surviving civilisations (including me since I couldn't afford more expansion) barbarians just came from everywhere. I had been warned my this thread and produced military, putting out axemen as soon as I could, and horse archers as soon as I oculd produce them.

I spotted my first barbarian archer in 2590BC and from about 1200BC onwards, they just came in waves. I had fog busters out, but because there was very little expansion, all that meant was that I encourntered barbarians further from my own cities. The good side of that was that my economny didn't suffer from plundering barbarians because I killed them before the arrived in my area, but I surely didn't meet less of them. There were swarms of them, and it was all I could do to keep producing the military to fend them off. The instant I discovered iron working, barbarian swordsmen started appearing as well as axemen.

I'd like to ask opinions on this - when you have continents, and you wipe out one or two neighbours, the result is a LOT more space for barbarians to grow in. In this game I played, I couldn't trade techs because I was ahead of the only other civ on my continent, and barbarians don't trade!! :( The early quecua rush was good, and worked, but I wonder if I paid heavily for it, in barbariens thereafter. Would I have been better off leaving Caesar and Elizabeth healthy and hopefully happy with me?

I've done quite a few test games to try out different approaches, but I'm pretty sure the total time I'll have spent is still small compared to how long I'll spend playing the (complete) GOTM.

I can just hope (and pray) the same will happen to me - that will mean I'll have survived to the barbarian hordes in the BC's :lol:

I'm very hesitant to attempt a CS slingshot on Emperor. You have to focus purely on getting COL oand Oracle, and if you fail then you'll be stuffed.

Even if you succeed then there's a good chance that you'll be overrun by Barbarians.

I'm going for early barracks and a Quecha rush. Depending on the distance to the nearest capital, I might pump out 4-5 Quechas and attempt to take it. If it's too far, then I'll just steal a worker and pillage for a while before setting the Quechas up as fog busters.

I've gone the peaceful route the last few games, so this time I'm up for some early war, and Agg/Fin is a wonderful combination. Early cottages will be the key here, along with plenty of military police / fog buster.


I'm thinking quecha-barracks-quecha-worker- and then it will depend on how far away the enemy is and if I have stolen a worker yet. If the enemy capital is close then its Quechas, otherwise it's a second city.

Early research will focus on AH, pottery, BW, then HR for Horse Archers and a second wave of attacks.

I just saw something interesting in this thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=155339

The claim was that:

I have seen barb riflemen and grenadiers. The lvl of the barb's defense is based on the lowest level of common tech among all playing civs. Thus if you have one civ who is still stuck with early melee units, the barbs are stuck there too. If that civ then upgrades to modern units quickly, you can watch the barb units upgrade to riflemen or infantry in a few turns.

I think this is critical if true. If you can delay the onset of axemen by foregoing bronzeworking, that would be an important consideration. I don't have any counter-evidence to this claim yet, but it is news to me. Anyone out there able to verify this or debunk it?

Thanks,

GS

I just saw something interesting in this thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=155339

quote: I have seen barb riflemen and grenadiers. The lvl of the barb's defense is based on the lowest level of common tech among all playing civs. Thus if you have one civ who is still stuck with early melee units, the barbs are stuck there too. If that civ then upgrades to modern units quickly, you can watch the barb units upgrade to riflemen or infantry in a few turns.


I find the claim surprising. I've seen barbarian riflemen and grenadiers too - in fact I saw some in GOTM8. The isolation factor in archaepelago maps tends to give barbarians the chance to survive til later in the game. I couldn't categorically deny the claim, but I thought a couple of times I've seen it, that all existing civs were past riflemen and grenadiers. Did they all have infantry though? Ughh. I don't know. I'm surprised but I can't prove it's wrong. I'd just assumed barbarians never developed past that level ever.

I've played a few modern start games, where all civs start past there, but in those games, I have NEVER seen barbarians. Perhaps this is normal for a modern start?

Well, I tried out a Quechua rush using the test start (thanks Blub :goodjob: ). Pumped out 5 quechuas initially and headed north to take out Paris (Bud Holy City) and Orleans, wiping out Louis in ~2000BC. Great start
BUT
I was then left with 2 cities both about 20 tiles away from and not connected to my relatively underdeveloped capital resulting in crippling maintenance and a research rate of 10-20%. Lots of frantic cottage building didn't really help this as the currency gains were offset against the cost of having to station Fogbusters outside my empire to reduce the waves of barbs and my research is limping along.

I'd be interested to hear the views of the good players on here on the benefits of the quechua rush, particularly if the enemies cities aren't close by. Sure, I've knocked out a rival already, but only at the expense of crippling my own research. Perhaps I'd have been better razing the cities, or instead using a few quechuas to pillage and harry a couple of opponents to slow their development while I consolidated mine? Or ignoring quechua altogether (although that does seem a waste of a UU)?

Don't take the third city (in this case Orleans) unless it has a fantastic location. If you get the chance to wipe out another civ before quechua's become obsolete, that's probably the time to keep your third city (namely the capitol).

Don't take the third city (in this case Orleans) unless it has a fantastic location. If you get the chance to wipe out another civ before quechua's become obsolete, that's probably the time to keep your third city (namely the capitol).

Oh, and don't get more than seven quechua's because of the maintenance costs. Build that buddhist monastery or library instead.

I just saw something interesting in this thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=155339

I think this is critical if true. If you can delay the onset of axemen by foregoing bronzeworking, that would be an important consideration. I don't have any counter-evidence to this claim yet, but it is news to me. Anyone out there able to verify this or debunk it?

Well, at the beginning we don't have Archery, yet still face barb archers. But maybe archers are the exception.

I play often Terra maps, they are fun, because conquest can be easy and if not you got a lot of land to conquer without WW.
Barbs macemen are the rule in those maps, but easily you have to fight against barbs rifles in the last cities.

In GotM8 i won a SS victory, and to increase score, i conquered 2 or 3 barb cities with marines against rifles. One of these cities was in the big island right east of "Spain" mainland.
Never seen a barb knight or cavalry, only HA, but don't know if is a rule.

Probably is correct:
- barbs can "produce" the best unit the less advanced civ can produce, without need to have the required resource, OR
- not the less advanced civ, but the second last advanced civ (in this case archers are explained - every civ knows archery, but ours)

Yesterday I ran my last test game, on Blubmuz´s :goodjob: save: I followed Erkon´s :goodjob: 2nd script (see quote below) and achieved Oracle CS 1210BC.

Oracle : 1180 BC
Build: Quechua, Worker, Quechua, Quechua, Barracks, Quechua, Oracle
Research: Polyteism, Mining, Animal Husbandry, Wheel, Pottery, Priesthood, Writing, CoL
Improve: Gold, Pasture, Cottages (on flood plains)
Final city size: 6 + 30%
No huts explored and one worker stolen and used. The extra four turns were used to research A.H, improve Pasture and build Barracks.
/Erkon

After that I converted to Bureaucracy and researched BW followed by alphabet (I guess I got too cocky) which I didn´t have time to complete before getting swarmed by barbs 14 turns later, as summarized by the table below:
Year: 1180BC - 895BC
Turn: 94 - 108
Quechua count (current/lost) 6/0 - 2/5
Barb count (current/killed) 3w/(7a,6w)total=16 - (4a,2w)/ (15a,15w)total=36

p.s. a=archer, w=warrior, animals killed not counted

Lessons learned:
1. beeline for archery after slingshot, quechuas won´t be enough to handle warrior barbs then, and if you get it before it´s even riskier to achieve the slingshot.
2. even after researching BW, as I did not hook up the resource not a single axeman showed up among the 20 new barbs in 14 turns. Btw the 2 other civs were running slavery for a long time. Maybe then you need to hook up copper for them to appear?

I just finished out a test Emperor game and I purposely never researched military techs beyond Feudalism. There was a barb city situated outside my borders in the 1600s and my swordsman scout always saw longbows defending that city. Perhaps the claim that barbs DEFENSIVE units do not exceed those of the lowest civs techs, excluding the initial archers, is correct???

After that I converted to Bureaucracy and researched BW followed by alphabet (I guess I got too cocky) which I didn´t have time to complete before getting swarmed by barbs 14 turns later, as summarized by the table below:
Year: 1180BC - 895BC
Turn: 94 - 108
Quechua count (current/lost) 6/0 - 2/5
Barb count (current/killed) 3w/(7a,6w)total=16 - (4a,2w)/ (15a,15w)total=36


If it's any comfort, you must at least have military tactics pretty well honed. If I've understood those figures right, you lost 5 quechas but in the process took out 8 barb archers and 9 barb warriors, despite presumably not having time to heal between battles!

I know not many have it yet, but i just dont know if i want to play a non-warlords game - I have been playing solid since i got it and I just dont know if i can play without my Axemen killing chariots and the Incans incredibile border expanding granery.

Sigh.... where's my old CIVIV disk.....

Next month Warlords GOTM1?

Having already opened this months file, I will NOT say anything about GOTM9 in this thread... I just want to answer the last sentence by facistal...

Staff has indicated that they intend to start WOTM1 (Warlords) about September 15th, and plan to run GOTM for civ4, and WOTM in parrallel, offset by half a month.

I was crushed like garlic in a press by last month's Monarch game while playing the contender class. Yet, I don't see any reason to eschew this months event since the price tag for entry is a good fit for my spartan budget.

I have absolutlely no plan whatsover, have not played any practice games because I've been Warlording, and am in way over my head.

My only goal is to try to add some mild comic relief to the usually droll and taciturn logs that seem to pepper the forums after these events.

My only goal is to try to add some mild comic relief to the usually droll and taciturn logs that seem to pepper the forums after these events.

:lol: I'm looking forward to it. And maybe you'll surprise us with a success story ;)

Call me a chicken, but I will pursue neither a worker steal / quechua rush nor an early religion / oracle slingshot in this (my first) GOTM. On Emperor and continents, I think both strategies are too much of a gambit – and an unnecessary one, in the face of such a strong starting position and trait-combo. Here's why:

1. Agressive starts carry a double risk: For one, things may not go as planned (no worker to grab, cities on hills, bad die rolls, barbs showing up). Obviously, you can just bring a bigger stack, but all those turns spent building Quechuas are ressources not invested in future growth. More importantly though, you´ll make longtime enemies of valuable early trading partners – and on this maptype, that`s quite a handicap. You may well dominate your continent, but to win the game, you need be stronger than the guys on the other one as well. And if they are harmoniously researching and trading while you are bashing each other's heads in, you will be locked out of the tech-trading game when the time caravels show up.

2. With religious starts, there's similar concerns. The odds of getting a religion or wonder are highly volatile and not knowable. Ressources invested in failed grabs are largely sunk. As for founding religions, chances are that you make as many friends with them as you make enemies. With gold and wine nearby, I think happiness is not going to be a concern in this game, and as for shrine income, I'd rather conquer one later in the game than go through the pains of building it.

Instead, consider this conservative builder start. Get a worker first. Research Mining. Build an fp-farm, then mine the gold, building Quechuas as you grow to three. Already, you are strong in every department: growth, economy, military. Research BW, chop out a settler (hopefully to settle nearby bronze, if any). Next up: Wheel, pottery and writing. Whip a granary, then a library (great scientist>academy) in your capital, an obelisk in the other city; then get out more workers or Quechuas as needed. Explore and fogbust, connect your cities with a road, get down some cottages and just grow. Sign open borders as soon as you can, trade ressources early, make some friends.

This way, you are insured against almost every risk and flexible enough to (re-)act as the situation dictates. Many civs on your continent? Go for early alphabet and get on top of the trading game. Military opportunity or threat? Get your third city near a strategic ressource and prepare for battle. Room to grow? Grab the key sites with chops and whips and techtrade for economy improvements.

In general, I find I fare much better on emperor / continents by playing it safe until the mid-game. Invest in future growth, stay on top of tech, know as much of the world as possible (early caravels, as Blubmuz said, are a must), use military to keep the strong in check, but stay on good terms with the key AIs. Don't commit to a strategy until you know what victory types are achievable. This is probably not going to win me the tournament, but – I hope – it will at least keep me from losing the game.

Off to play now. Everyone, good luck! :king:

J.

This is my first GOTM. I don't play a lot, and have never really advanced past warlord, but I decided to try this one anyway despite being emporer. Im actually doing a lot better than I thought I would, but I can see that there is no way im going to be able to win (in 1600s now, and beginning to fall behind).

My question is, do I have to win to submit my game? Or is the score the only thing that matters, win or lose?

This is my first GOTM. I don't play a lot, and have never really advanced past warlord, but I decided to try this one anyway despite being emporer. Im actually doing a lot better than I thought I would, but I can see that there is no way im going to be able to win (in 1600s now, and beginning to fall behind).

My question is, do I have to win to submit my game? Or is the score the only thing that matters, win or lose?

You can submit a loss if you want.

-- --- --

My question is, do I have to win to submit my game? Or is the score the only thing that matters, win or lose?

You can submit both wins and losses.

What you can't do is disclose any details at all about the game outside the spoiler threads... How the GOTM is proceeding for you is information too.

I don't think this qualifies as much of a spoiler. Don't post in the pre-game or saves available threads once you have opened the start file. Simple rule.

I know I could have submitted my loss, but I don't have the save game.Tough!

I restarted the game and am having a good time. ....

Can I resubmit with a note saying my 2nd attempt, just to see my relative placement?NO.
Can I post in the spoiler threads?Don't see why not as long as you obey the rules, unlike your behaviour here.

With each passing day I lose much hope for the future of humanity. Everytime I think I have been baffled beyond the pale, something else happens to push the boundaries of stupefication beyond anything even Johnny Knoxville could tap into.

Could someone pass me the Jim Jones Grape Kool-aid, please.

You can submit both wins and losses.

What you can't do is disclose any details at all about the game outside the spoiler threads... How the GOTM is proceeding for you is information too.


Ok cool thanks

Can I resubmit with a note saying my 2nd attempt, just to see my relative placement?
Can I post in the spoiler threads?

You're not allowed to submit your second game, but you can compare your final score in that game with those in the table when results are published, scores displayed for GOTM are those you see within the game when you win or lose.

And I see no reason why you couldn't post in the spoiler threads.

And I see no reason why you couldn't post in the spoiler threads.


Posting info gleaned from multiple games seems a bit on the government cheese side of life, but keeping it confined to the original game seems more in line with the spirit of the game.

I lost my initial game, and my capital got taken by the barbs. I don't think this qualifies as much of a spoiler.

I quit the game (with a single city not much hope). I know I could have submitted my loss, but I don't have the save game.

I restarted the game and am having a good time. I realize I am not eligible for the $10 million grand prize, but what are my options for participating in the
COTM?

Can I resubmit with a note saying my 2nd attempt, just to see my relative placement?
Can I post in the spoiler threads?

There's no shame in losing on this high of difficulty, especially when there are barbarian hordes to contend with. Next time, save it and submit. It's atleast worth taking a look at to see what went wrong.

You're not allowed to submit your second game, but you can compare your final score in that game with those in the table when results are published, scores displayed for GOTM are those you see within the game when you win or lose.

And I see no reason why you couldn't post in the spoiler threads.

To add to that. If you hover your mouse over your score in the area in the bottom right of the main window, where it shows the scores of all the players, at any time during the game, it tells you what your final score for the rankings would be if you won on that turn. I'm not sure how to tell what your score would be if you lost (or retired) on that turn.

There's no shame in losing on this high of difficulty, especially when there are barbarian hordes to contend with.


Why would there be any shame at losing at any level of difficulty?

Generating self esteem from a game is a bellweather of an unstable, "love me daddy" type of mindset. Nothing creates greater pathos than those people thinking success at a computer game has any real meaning in the world at large.

Of course, the only reason I make this argument is because I suck. Now, if I were any good.....:lol:

I restarted the game and am having a good time. I realize I am not eligible for the $10 million grand prize, but what are my options for participating in the
COTM?

Obvious option is: You join in next month's GOTM, and don't lose your first save game. ;)

Can I resubmit with a note saying my 2nd attempt, just to see my relative placement?

No. You can only submit your first attempt. Containing whatever mistakes you made (and believe me, I've done some horrendous wish-I-hadn't-done-that things in GOTMs - but the rule of the GOTM is you have to carry on as best you can). Re-attempts, or anything where you reloaded to replay even so much as a single turn, absolutely can't be submitted.

Why would there be any shame at losing at any level of difficulty?

Generating self esteem from a game is a bellweather of an unstable, "love me daddy" type of mindset. Nothing creates greater pathos than those people thinking success at a computer game has any real meaning in the world at large.


I'm not sure it's entirely self-esteem from a game. I think to some extent it's a manifestation of self-esteem from comparing yourself with others. The tendency to derive our sense of self-worth by comparing how successful you perceive yourself to be with how successful others appear to be. IMO it's still the wrong thing to derive your self-esteem from (far better to learn to get it from just being yourself and caring for others), but lots of people, probably most people, still do it to a large extent. :(

Of course, the only reason I make this argument is because I suck. Now, if I were any good.....:lol:

.... you wouldn't be able to provide valuable self-esteem to those people who derive their self esteem from the fact that they're scored better than you in the GOTMs. :mischief:

Of course, the only reason I make this argument is because I suck. Now, if I were any good.....:lol:

.... you wouldn't be able to provide valuable self-esteem to those people who derive their self esteem from the fact that they're scored better than you in the GOTMs. :mischief:

Heeey, wait! You can't have my self esteem providing job! :mad:

Oh, my bad. There are still people worse than us ... Carry on then! :lol:

You're not allowed to submit your second game, but you can compare your final score in that game with those in the table when results are published, scores displayed for GOTM are those you see within the game when you win or lose.

And I see no reason why you couldn't post in the spoiler threads.

One thing I noticed in my couple of previous COTM is that ranking via civ score is significantly different than the final ranking shown on the Civ IV COTM result page. So a valid comparison would be with Jason scores, which sadly Civ4 doesn't provide while hovering over the list of opponents.

The only Jason score calculator I could find is one for CIV III. Doesn't anybody have a method for converting Civ IV scores into Jason Scores?

I didn't anything particular stupid, the Quecha in my capital had a 210% bonus against the barb archer.

There is no Jason score for Civ IV, they just use the Firaxis one. Although there is a 'speed ranking' knocking about that is based on comparing the speed relative to other players by victory, which would be harder to duplicate.

There is no Jason score for Civ IV, they just use the Firaxis one. Although there is a 'speed ranking' knocking about that is based on comparing the speed relative to other players by victory, which would be harder to duplicate.

I am really confused the GOTM results table has a score column and final score column what is the difference?:confused:

I am really confused the GOTM results table has a score column and final score column what is the difference?:confused:

The "score" is what you normally see during the game (in the window with all the civilization leaders and their scores), and is based on population, techs you have learned, etc, while the final score is adjusted depending on difficulty level (I think?) and how fast you won. If you hover over your score in the civilization leader window, it also tells you what your final score would be if you won that turn.

Played some way into the practice game from this thread. My God. Barbs. Pillage. Everything. All the time.

to Dolphan:
It's definitly worth some practice games!
This is my first GOTM and I just rushed into it, now I'm sitting here with my messed-up game.
I guess it is common to practice before starting the savegame, isn't it?

I guess it is common to practice before starting the savegame, isn't it?

No. There are hundreds of GOTM participants, and only a few who go to the extent of "practice games". If you just play the game, and do your best, you're right in line with the vast majority of participants.

No. There are hundreds of GOTM participants, and only a few who go to the extent of "practice games". If you just play the game, and do your best, you're right in line with the vast majority of participants.

I would think there's more than 'a few' who play practice games. I'd guess it tends to be more the people who don't feel totally comfortable at the level of each month's GOTM who do so, so perhaps practice games aren't as common amongst the top people. And I'd guess it's only a few who ever play practice games to completion (as opposed to eg. playing to 0AD or until they have 4-5 cities established)

I'd guess it tends to be more the people who don't feel totally comfortable at the level of each month's GOTM who do so, so perhaps practice games aren't as common amongst the top people.

Well, I think entirely the opposite. The people who are super-serious and competitive about the game are most likely the ones who are comfortable at Emperor and higher, these are also the players who are most likely to "practice". And the players who are comfortable only at Prince could improve their game much more just by reading some of the advice on this site, than by spending the same amount of time playing "practice games".

Well, I think entirely the opposite. The people who are super-serious and competitive about the game are most likely the ones who are comfortable at Emperor and higher, these are also the players who are most likely to "practice". And the players who are comfortable only at Prince could improve their game much more just by reading some of the advice on this site, than by spending the same amount of time playing "practice games".

I'm a relatively inexperienced civ player, and while I did read a lot on this site (and probably got a boost from SGOTM1) I think my first GOTM victory, on 7, had a lot to do with the fact that I played a practice game to the point of economic collapse, then played the actual GOTM and managed to avoid that happening. I don't have a clue about the worldbuilder, but as people are kind enough to post practice saves, I take the opportunity. I'm on my 2nd for GOTM9, doing considerably better than the 1st (more fog-busters this time!) and may do a third if time permits, mainly because I'm definitely a player who is 'uncomfortable on Emperor'!