As the title says - I was wondering if there might be any consensus on the all-around strongest religion. It seems to me that the Ashen Veil and the Order might be a bit weak, with the Octopi (with Slavery and The Drown), the Fellowship (huge cities!) and the Runes (lots of gold, good for rush-buying, well, just about anything) looking like the strongest. At least I didn't see the Order as having very many strengths when I played them, but maybe I was just missing something - so discuss, either we'll get the weakest religions boosted a bit or I'll be given useful pointers on how I should be playing the Order and the Veil. ;)

Courthouse (-50% city upkeep) + Basilica (-50% city upkeep) = Big empires, really easy.

And of course, the Basilica can only be built by the order! There's other stuff, too, but none especially come to mind at the moment.

If you play a full game, I think it turns out to be Runes... At least from my expirience.

It depends... For example, if you play Ljosalvar, obviously Leaves is the answer xP

i voted runes because in general its always the most useful for any given civ for maintaining large empires... but i didn't know about that basilica thing, i'll have to try that

I believe it also gives -1 :culture:, +1 Great Commander :gp:.

i can deal with that, i *think* one of the bannor leaders has creative, maybe?

weird note, hyborem did horribly in my last game with deity raging barbs (only me as lanun, hyborem, and capria of the bannor) and capria was more powerful then us both combined O_o she had werewolves though, and she lost tons of cities (she kept rebuilding them though, and well placed cities seemed to stay, its evolution!). speaking of evolution, more self replicating units would be good, AI's are amazing with anything that self replicates.

Courthouse (-50% city upkeep) + Basilica (-50% city upkeep) = Big empires, really easy.

Wouldn't Courthouses + Temples of Kilmorph (+ City States, now that their gold penalty is getting cut in 0.15) be almost as good AND also benefit you more while you weren't yet as big?

City states won't cover the entirety of the maintenance (only distance last i checked, and only 80%), which leaves city number mainteance and 20% distance maintenance. While the gold you get from kilmorph is good, it isnt exponentially good, and maintenance gets exponentially bad as time goes on.

Never having to worry about an exponentially increasing cost is a very very very good thing.

City states won't cover the entirety of the maintenance (only distance last i checked, and only 80%), which leaves city number mainteance and 20% distance maintenance. While the gold you get from kilmorph is good, it isnt exponentially good, and maintenance gets exponentially bad as time goes on.

Never having to worry about an exponentially increasing cost is a very very very good thing.

Precisely :D

Though you still need to actually build the buildings, rushing them soon pays for itself.

Has anyone tried Ashen Veil? I've had and i noticed the hero is fairly good, but didn't notice any other effects of the religion.

Rosier the Fallen (Ashen Veil hero) is exactly the same as Valin Phanuel... (Order hero). Unless he was changed in this version

Wow, I didn't expect Kilmorph to dominate like this. Then again, I thought I'd be relatively alone in my love for Order.

And I'm pretty sure that Valin and Rosier are the same, though Sphener and Mardero at least have different spells.

Don't be fooled, can't you see? people just more often pick the options closest to the bottom.

I'm going to have to look at Ashen Veil some more, it doesn't seem to have anything all that special, but i remember liking something about it (maybe their temples).

Cue commercial voice: "We're dedicated to getting you more bars in more places... an all over wireless network... blah dee blah dirka dirka."

(Someone needs to put in a vote for OO so it looks more like the commercial) :p

Well, the Ashen Veil is unique in having Diseased Corpses, but I dunno about their usefulness. Sure, they can weaken a big stack at once, but if you're attacking a big stack, don't you have catapults with you anyway? I suppose that they could theoretically be sent out on suicide missions to spread the disease into individual cities before an invasion, but that too seems a bit far-fetched. There's even the chance of the disease spreading to your *own* units, which obviously is more a pain than a help.

Is there any sort of territory effect? or special buildings?

And what about Cult of the Dragon?!?!?

I haven't played Ashen Veil as of yet, but look forward to a good Evil game.

I chose Order, though I've liked Runes and Leaves as the Dwarves and Elves. I like the Order high priests and their fiery spells, and the Order spreads like wildfire through your kingdom once you make it your state religion (thanks mainly to those disciples that get recruited almost every time another city gets the religion).

- Niilo

Don't forget the crusaders that spawn instead of acolytes later in the game!

Theres not a lot of Love for the Veil. Is it weak? I've played it once or twice, but im fairly confident that it had nothing to do with the success i was enjoying. In fact, in so far as its "benefits" it was only providing happiness, and any units i got from it werent that great. Mayhap it needs a boost?
Dunno, its such a late game religion to "go for" and its usually a big diplomacy hit as well. Any thoughts on this fellas?
-Qes

Luchuirp/Khazad - Runes;
Lanun - Overlords;
Ljosalfar - Leaves;
Everyone else - start with runes because it support empire growth, end with Order
Ashen Veil - tryed couple of times, never liked(not very much useful I think), maybe good for vampires?

What makes the Lanun good with Overlords? I know that it's on their preferred tech path, but what synergy is there?

One promlem with the veil is that it's holy building gives beacers insted of gold. Normally you use the extra gold to keep the research rate high which seems better than just getting a plain beaker gain from one city (bazaar is much easier to get than the crown in your holy city.)

I voted overlords because the drown can easily dominate in the early stages of the game and i really like the disiple spells they offer (mutation - graft flesh). Not to forget about Hemah, a free archmage that always(!) gets to six meteors.

I voted Overlords too. Hemah and Saverous are very powerful heroes to have, and Slavery is really a great civic to run ! :goodjob:

Someone mentionned synergy with the Lanun... I like playing Lanun and building large Arcane Barges forces, those are easy to protect with Pirates and Drowns. Besides, "The Drown"s upgraded to Stygian Guards keep their Water Walk promo, effectively giving you 7str "ship-like" Melee units that can also attack cities from the coast after the Barges have loaded them with fireballs... "now intercept this, you elfic forest-dependent moron" :p :D Finally, the Slavery Civics allows turning low-hammers coastal cities into heavy production centers just by playing the whip. The same way, slaves are easy to capture and may be sacrificed for immediate hammers. OO allows the Lanun the overcome what I think is their main weakness (raw production) AND gets along well with their theme of sea domination. In fact, the one OO feature I have never got a chance to use with the Lanun is the Kraken: I don't seem to focus enough on High Priests, and in my last few Lanun-OO games I could achieve Domination victory before being given a chance to summon one.

Hello everybody,

I vote Runes of Kilmorph. With its huge amount of money, you can nearly always have your research around 90-100%, you can support a large empire (even with no courthouse), you can rush.... As in vanilla, gold is power in FfH2.
About Leaves, it helps you having clean and huge cities. And nothing more... perhaps some bonuses such as Woodman I and II.....
Octopus Overlords. The real bonuses are the heroes (as somebody wrote before) and slavery civic. Lunatics are one shot unit if not protected by a strong def unit. Asylum happiness malus make this building difficult to build on a high level gameplay.
The two others religion have the same problem: they are costly (in techs and research) to develop... Most of my game play runs without these two religions. AI civs seem to prefers the three first and don't waste time to research Order or Veil. Furthemore, Veil is weak. Its heroes are common, Diseases Corps unit is nearly useless,.... Order is only interesting if you play Bannor.
That's just my opinion. You don't have to agree ;) . I would be happy if this thread could help the Team to make some of these religion more interesting to play. IMO, one of the first problem to solve is the cost of time and research to develop Order and Veil.....

The Frog.

About Diseased Corpses, I feel they come in too late in the game. They would make a correct tier2 unit, but since it takes much more time to get the Veil than the 3 "basic" religions, by the time you can build DC you are likely to prefer more powerful all-around units. Perheaps a little boost for this unit would help putting the Veil back in balance.

And Veil temples could use a greater science output. I tried once to run an all-Veil Temples science strategy, and was really dissapointed by the result. Even mass-creating Savants sacrified for science wouldn't give me an edge over my opponents. In fact, I found that OO would get better science output than Veil (but that could be because I'm just more used to playing them).

OO seems good for Lanun, but i still like runes for them since i normally get hit hard with high maintenances.

SchpailsMan,


And Veil temples could use a greater science output. I tried once to run an all-Veil Temples science strategy, and was really dissapointed by the result. Even mass-creating Savants sacrified for science wouldn't give me an edge over my opponents. In fact, I found that OO would get better science output than Veil (but that could be because I'm just more used to playing them).

Yes, you are right. I did the same test and the result was also very weak. With Runes of Kilmorph, you can nearly always have 100% researsh.....

The Frog.

i would tend to agree with most of the comments about the veil: for a relatively late religion (you could have runes well spread and cashed up by the time you founded it) it doesn't have enough going for it to make me usually want to use it. the times i have, have been curiousity as much as anything. The heroes are fine in comparison to other religion dependent heroes, but as people have pointed out, the scientific flavour doesn't feel strong enough to justify changing religion. i like the flavour of making the shrine give research instead of gold, but i don't think it works that well - i'd rather have the money to subsidise my empire or research, so there's not nearly the same incentive to spread the veil as with the others. i think that either the shrine benefits should be stronger (maybe an overall % boost for having veil as state religion as well) or it should be reverted back to gold with some other science-ish bonus instead.
the other main thing is the diplomatic hit - usually there aren't enough evil civs around to make it beneficial, and the religion nor its units aren't strong enough (as I see it) or don't provide a sufficient advantage to overcome that diplomatic trouble. i like the flavour of evilness and its consequences, but i would maybe also like to see a little bit extra muscle to balance the usual isolation that follows.

usually i go runes, it's usually quickest as i like to pick up mining-branch techs early and don't play with much water.
order is fun, but is usually too late and i tend to be reluctant to give up my religion dependent heroes and priests.

it'd be neat if there was a chance of summoing demons in ashen veil territory, or even better, on the periphery of their borders (sometimes ending up inside others territories if they press against the veil civs ones).
Kinda like in Warcraft 3 when the burning legion strikes into the ground. They could be barbarian controlled (thus giving it a high synergy with barb trait civs), and the actual landing of the units could worsen the land of the tile they hit (maybe even surrounding tiles)

Example:
one city infernal civ with ashen veil. The tiles near its border (outside of its borders, though maybe occasionally just inside the borders) gets hit by a demon meteor. The tile was grassland and now becomes plains (or maybe even desert). There's now a powerful demon unit there (maybe comparable to treants). It moves on its own (its a barb unit).

What this does is give a inverted treant spawning effect. Instead of being a defensive response, its an offensive response, which would seem to fit well and support why evil civs should be hated by good civs.

The Veil Shrine (Stigmata of the Unborn ?) should give +2 or even +3 beakers, or maybe it gives gold and has another ability like +10% science in every city ??

And, as someone alredy said, it would be good to have a +X% increase in science just by adopting The Veil as state religion...

Asylum happiness malus make this building difficult to build on a high level gameplay.

If you have the Tower of Complacency, build one in that city.

And Veil temples could use a greater science output.

This would also benefit cities though with the Veil in them but not as state religion.

But that wouldn´t be a problem, as cities whit Runes can benefit of the gold from the temple even whidout state religion as well....

Which I find annoying. :( It makes the Religious Discipline civic too unattractive IMO.

I normally agree with you on that, though in my last game i found it quite useful since i had fewer civs and everone was more spread out (so generally their religions didnt get to me).
It'd be more useful if it prevented religious spread into your cities (except of your state religion).

Put me down for the Overlords. I never seemed to go for this religion and always went for Runes / Fellowship. One game I decided to try OO and didn't have to worry about the Ashen Veil or the Order because the AI was effectivly dead before they got to those religions :eek:

Drown + dumb AI (no promotions v. undead, slow to get to Warcraft/city defender) = dead AI

Oh, and I like the culture a lot. The endless gold & rushing as the Runes is nice but I like the culture and other benefits of OO a little better along with the drown.

I voted for the Overlords. I dont think many people play them because people usually dont rush the sea techs, but they are a monster. Saverous is probably the most effective religious hero.

I voted for the Overlords. I dont think many people play them because people usually dont rush the sea techs, but they are a monster. Saverous is probably the most effective religious hero.

:eek: Not Bambur?!

I agree the Saverous is effective but Bambur will always be my favorite. He's just such a cute little guy even as he's sacking his 5th city on his own.

Perhaps the Veil will be a bit more attractive if you need Death mana to get access to Death spells.

If im remember this correctly i think the veil also gives you a scientific boost. Each religion has a field that it specializes in: Veil= Science, Runes= Production (and/or maybe gold?), Fl/lvs= Culture (i think?), Order= Military and negitive curruption bonus (not totally sure about this but that's what see the religion as), and Oct/Ovl= Dont think there is one here but it may be navl/water units (like drown?). So it depends on what you're goals are for your civ and your people. If you what to be scientificly ahead of people (or at least get a boost) then you should go with the veil or if you need a lot of gold or need help with production then runes/k would work out for you.

It also depends on the civ your playing. Elven civ+fl/lvs= good, Blood or sheaim + veil= good, Khazad + Runes= good, etc.

I personally like the Elven civ, Ljosalfar (I think they're called), and the fellow ship of the leaves.

Actuallly OO is specialized in culture and leaves is in happyness/health

O yes. I forgot about the fellowships religious civic and i hardly play the OO so i didn't know.:mischief:

Seems like in most games I play, the Fellowship and the OO are most prominent, with Kilmorph close behind that, and the Veil and Order mostly unheard of because they were founded by the same Civs that already founded the Fellowship/OO/Kilmorph. Unfortunate.

i think leaves has a high spread rate or something, the only religion that seems to spread faster is cult of the dragon

i think leaves has a high spread rate or something, the only religion that seems to spread faster is cult of the dragon

I agree but i hardly ever see the dragon cult in my civ... if i have like 5 or 6 cities only 1 or 2 of my cities get the cult.

IMO the fl/lvs spreads in an annoyingly fast rate.

i think leaves has a high spread rate or something, the only religion that seems to spread faster is cult of the dragon

The order spreads as though its got somewhere to be. I assume it eats lunch at a fast food joint, because at the rate in which order spreads, it shames other civs. Cities without religion easily adopt whatever religion is near by. Its not that leavse spreads quickly, so much as in the early stages of religion it's got little competetion. Same with runes. If order were established early (and therefore world wide) leaves would have much more difficulty in establishing itself over time.
-Qes

LoL, when i adopt The Order about 5 turns later all my cities alredy have it... It spreads like a plague or something...

Stole comments from Kael, SchpailsMan and Chandrasekhar to the Manual thread.

Anyway, it looks pretty badly like the Veil gets the short end of the stick. Since their emphasis is on science, let's try to boost that aspect. I agree with their shrine needing to give +2 or +3 beakers per city. Also, how about giving Sacrifice the Weak a, say, +25% science modifier? It's a pretty weak civic as it is, and therefore probably ends up sacrificed by most players.

Hmm. Another thought, how about either a "Dark Ritual" spell or "Dark Ritual" improvement that can be built in cities? Either way, when built/cast, it would raze the city, turning the tile into ocean (so a new city can't be rebuilt there - placing fallout on the ocean tile, if possible) and placing fallout on the surrounding tiles. In exchange, the Veil civilization would be granted lots of beakers and have a chance of a demon joining their cause. Maybe a, say, 7% chance of summoning a demon per point of city size (10% for leaders with the Summoner trait?) with the demon having (2 * city size, 3 * size for Summoners?) points of XP once it appears. The beaker benefit would likewise depend on the city size.

Maybe we need to start thinking of ways to make the Veil stronger without sacrificing something else?

Well, they are people who make pacts with demons... and c'mon, can you honestly say you've never wanted the power to tear entire cities off the surface of the world, trading the lives of their inhabitants in exchange for unlimited personal power? UNLIMITED, COSMIC POWEEEERRRRRRRR?

*cough* Sorry, don't mind me.

The villains' creed, point 31:

Despite the temptation, I will never consume an energy field bigger than my own head.

Well, they are people who make pacts with demons... and c'mon, can you honestly say you've never wanted the power to tear entire cities off the surface of the world, trading the lives of their inhabitants in exchange for unlimited personal power? UNLIMITED, COSMIC POWEEEERRRRRRRR?

*cough* Sorry, don't mind me.

I couldn't understand you through all the evil. Would you repeat that?:twitch:
Yeah, My thoughts are that the veil should have some VERY powerful units initially. GIve them a great deal of power in a very short period of time. And then have some sacrifices be made over the long term. In this it would represent short-sightedness. Sell your soul to deamons, and get immense power. Use that power for as long as you can....but in the end, it'll cost you more than it was worth (unless you WIN before that happens).
-Qes

I'll go with Overloads. The Culture bonus is pretty insane and drown abosulutely dominate if used right. And most importantely, it has the best music. My favorite combo is Overloads/Doveliom - warmongering fun all around.

Runes is obviously overpowered (economy wise) and has been for quite some time.

I usually go for Ashen Veil since I'm an evil bastard and Rosier/Mardero will dominate the map if you beeline for them. The wonder that gives the free tech is also nice.

Well, then you can say Valin/Sphener dominates too if you beeline for then ? I dont know about Sphener, but Valin Phanuel is exactly the same as Rosier the Fallen.

I couldn't understand you through all the evil. Would you repeat that?:twitch:
Yeah, My thoughts are that the veil should have some VERY powerful units initially. GIve them a great deal of power in a very short period of time. And then have some sacrifices be made over the long term. In this it would represent short-sightedness. Sell your soul to deamons, and get immense power. Use that power for as long as you can....but in the end, it'll cost you more than it was worth (unless you WIN before that happens).
-Qes
i think that kind of an approach suits the veil quite well from a flavour point of view - what kind of gains and then penalties did you have in mind though?
as i mentioned earlier, i think having veil as a state religion, or at least having the shrine, should give a stronger science lift. i disagree with getting beakers instead of gold, because 1 beaker < 1 gold i reckon, especially later in the game when you have techs that cost 1000s of beakers and at best maybe +20 beakers from the shrine on a small map (my comp chokes on anything bigger). i think: get the 1 gold per city AND a moderate science boost

Well, then you can say Valin/Sphener dominates too if you beeline for then ? I dont know about Sphener, but Valin Phanuel is exactly the same as Rosier the Fallen.

Mardero > Sphener

i disagree with getting beakers instead of gold, because 1 beaker < 1 gold i reckon, especially later in the game when you have techs that cost 1000s of beakers and at best maybe +20 beakers from the shrine on a small map (my comp chokes on anything bigger).
Have you noticed how much gold you put into your science rate to get those thousands of beakers for the later techs? Try and set your science rate to zero for some time and see how much gold you'd earn if you didn't research.

1 beaker should theoretically be worth about as much as 1 gold. Every point of commerce turns into one beaker or one gold, that depends on your science rate. You get more beakers or more gold depending on the +x% bonus to money/science of libraries/money changers/academies, but those bonuses also apply to your holy city.

Hmm. Another thought, how about either a "Dark Ritual" spell or "Dark Ritual" improvement that can be built in cities? Either way, when built/cast, it would raze the city, turning the tile into ocean (so a new city can't be rebuilt there - placing fallout on the ocean tile, if possible) and placing fallout on the surrounding tiles. In exchange, the Veil civilization would be granted lots of beakers and have a chance of a demon joining their cause. Maybe a, say, 7% chance of summoning a demon per point of city size (10% for leaders with the Summoner trait?) with the demon having (2 * city size, 3 * size for Summoners?) points of XP once it appears. The beaker benefit would likewise depend on the city size.
it'd be neat if there was a chance of summoing demons in ashen veil territory, or even better, on the periphery of their borders (sometimes ending up inside others territories if they press against the veil civs ones).
Kinda like in Warcraft 3 when the burning legion strikes into the ground. They could be barbarian controlled (thus giving it a high synergy with barb trait civs), and the actual landing of the units could worsen the land of the tile they hit (maybe even surrounding tiles)
Joining these two ideas, what if you could build the ritual and it summons a powerful barbarian demon to the building city, razes the city and turns all the surrounding tiles into desert with fallout (ocean seems a bad idea because it just seems weird.. a mountain would be better, or just desert i think)? I really like the idea of Ashen Veil sacrficing to bring about damage to the lands and chaos for its enemies.

Id like to have some techs that cant be gained by research, instead you have to do somrthing to earn points toward them. For the Veil that would mean sacrificing unit to their Demons Altar. Each time they do so they get some points toward some techs that cant be earned any other way. Those techs would grant new units/promotions/buildings/etc that represent their infernal knowledge.

But nothing will be changed on the Veil until we get the city art CTD taken care of. The last thing I want to do is make the Veil all new and cool and then have you guys have to deal with a bunch of late game CTD's while you are trying out the new stuff.

But thats the current plan, what do you guys think?

personally ive not had any CTD's with ashen veil.

it makes sense to work on it later though, since a lot of the good evil races haven't had the bulk of their stuff introduced yet

but when you are ready, demons falling from the sky and ruining the land must come!!! lol

What about having some Ashen Veil state only stuff?

-Only allow death magic promotions when Ashen Veil is state religion
--You could also 'boost' the death magic stuff to give them more of an edge

-Demons popping as barbs on Ashen Veil neighbors sounds like a neat idea(mentioned above) but this has a chance to really hurt the Ashen Veil player too.

-Some more Ashen tech only paths? Maybe if Ashen players a way to 'jump' to some late game non-military techs? (With an OR clause)

Do certian religions negate spread of other religions to a city? (Order and Ashen Veil co-existing?)

Maybe only allow Ashen temples in civilizations whose state religion is: Ashen Veil, Runes, and OO. Fellowship/Order seem to 'good' to embrace the veil.

Id like to have some techs that cant be gained by research, instead you have to do somrthing to earn points toward them. For the Veil that would mean sacrificing unit to their Demons Altar. Each time they do so they get some points toward some techs that cant be earned any other way. Those techs would grant new units/promotions/buildings/etc that represent their infernal knowledge.

But nothing will be changed on the Veil until we get the city art CTD taken care of. The last thing I want to do is make the Veil all new and cool and then have you guys have to deal with a bunch of late game CTD's while you are trying out the new stuff.

But thats the current plan, what do you guys think?

Kael,

1) I'm surprised. I never have a CTD with Veil, neither i heard about it. But if you say that exist....
2) It could be a good idea to sacrifice units to develop some infernal knowledge.
But the Demons Altar must be one of the first building you can build to be attractive. What about these new units/tech/promo/.. ? Are they unique to Veil ? What about the cost in time and shields ? On a more technical side, do you already have all that is needed (flavor, picture, text, codes,...) ?

Even if i think that your idea seems to be good, i still think that one the main problem of Veil and Order is that they are nearly never researched by ai civs. Most of the time, these civs are under the rules of an other religion that has spread in their cities....


The Frog.

-Demons popping as barbs on Ashen Veil neighbors sounds like a neat idea(mentioned above) but this has a chance to really hurt the Ashen Veil player too.
a lot of the evil civs have the BARB trait, which would give them good synergy i think, and make it risky for those without barb trait

a lot of the evil civs have the BARB trait, which would give them good synergy i think, and make it risky for those without barb trait

This idea could even be taken farther.

1. You have a civilization with Ashen Veil as the state religion.
2. A demon 'pops' on a neighboring Civ and proceeds to siege a city. (Maybe give these barb demons a catapult like ability, throwing fireballs casting spells etc..)
3. Demon razes the city, for X amount of pop the demon can either get X/3 amount of strength OR X amount of lesser demons.

This could lead to a demon uprising that cascades across the world. Wouldn't it be interesting to have to re-settle the map past the year 800 because 50%+ of the cities have been razed by a demon army?

It even adds flavor for the Order religion. Perhaps set the script to detect when the 'Demons' have become too powerful and make some of the 'good' civs switch to Order and starting producing anti-demon units and crusading.

ya thatd be neat, it'd be a sort of armagedon spell that you could potentially deal with, but would likely cripply most civs

What about having some Ashen Veil state only stuff?

-Only allow death magic promotions when Ashen Veil is state religion
--You could also 'boost' the death magic stuff to give them more of an edge

The layers you build your empire with are:

1. The base (what everyone gets).
2. Your civilization.
3. Your religion.
4. Your spell spheres.

I hate to constrain this to much (I know the grigori miss out on layer 3 and the khazad largely miss out on layer 4) by restricitng spell to certain religions or civs. In effect the religions do have spells that only they can access (the divine spells of their spheres).

Boosting their entropy or death spells may be possible though.

-Demons popping as barbs on Ashen Veil neighbors sounds like a neat idea(mentioned above) but this has a chance to really hurt the Ashen Veil player too.

It may be neat if all existing barbarians become demons, some new demons are spawned (if there arent very many), "barbarian" trait civs lose their alliance with the barbs and ashen veil civs gain an alliance with the barbs.

Could make for an interesting game. ;)

-Some more Ashen tech only paths? Maybe if Ashen players a way to 'jump' to some late game non-military techs? (With an OR clause)

Probably new techs. I tried tech jumping once, it was such a hassle I had to rip it all out afterwards. There are to many things that techs influence that you wouldn't think giving early access to a late game tech is as big a deal as it is.

Do certian religions negate spread of other religions to a city? (Order and Ashen Veil co-existing?)

Yes.

Maybe only allow Ashen temples in civilizations whose state religion is: Ashen Veil, Runes, and OO. Fellowship/Order seem to 'good' to embrace the veil.

The Order and veil cant exist in the same city but the rest can. Just because the state religion is Fellowship doesnt mean that everyone in the empire is following it.

Kael,

1) I'm surprised. I never have a CTD with Veil, neither i heard about it. But if you say that exist....
2) It could be a good idea to sacrifice units to develop some infernal knowledge.
But the Demons Altar must be one of the first building you can build to be attractive. What about these new units/tech/promo/.. ? Are they unique to Veil ? What about the cost in time and shields ? On a more technical side, do you already have all that is needed (flavor, picture, text, codes,...) ?

Even if i think that your idea seems to be good, i still think that one the main problem of Veil and Order is that they are nearly never researched by ai civs. Most of the time, these civs are under the rules of an other religion that has spread in their cities....

The Frog.

Yeah, I have all the tools I need to cause certain civs to prefer religion and have them rush to certain techs. I may tweak it a little further to influence the ai to go for the order and the veil.

As for the specifics, I dont know. One of the team members mentioned gaining techs through actions (i think they were talking about getting some points for each slave sacked for production, or each asylum built) and I always liked the mechanic, we just havent found a place for it.

Im really happy at the poll results turning out so evenly (except for the veil). We will see if we can get the ctd fixed, I want to play a tech rush game with them just to make sure they arent already to powerful and people just havent tried the right strategy with them yet, and then we will look at adding a little more function and flavor to them.

A few ways to make the game fun are to manifest entropic (not magical) effects in the game, and give a pay out for them in some other regard, this slows the powerlevels of the world (Development, technology, etc), but increases the fluidity and dynamic interactions of the civs invovled IN that world.

A Few thoughts on possible religion boosts (as to make them more pertenant beyond mere happiness and population control):


Octopus Overlords: When Razing a city, half the population is turned into slaves. This would create incentive for OO to raze cities instead of capturing them.

The Order: When capturing a city, allow the option (despite a lack of an inquisitor) to "purge the city". A few population points are lost, but all non-order relgions are expunged. Also, eliminate the "Draft" unhappiness penalty in Order Cities.

Runes of Kilmoprh: When Losing a city, the city lost imediately loses its (kilmoprh) religion, but the money from sacking the city for the opposing civ is halved. (The kilmorph followers flee the city with the potential gold.)

Leaves: Double War-wariness in Leaves cities, A captured leaves city takes twice as long to end a revolt. (if 6 normal turns, 12 for a former leaves(state-religion) city.)

Ashen Vale: Military units may "pillage" own towns/villages/cottages for gold, and my "recruit" units in townsvillages/cottages. Recruitment shrinks the improvment, as pillaging does, but produces a weak military unit. Perhaps a melee unit one technological level under the maximum. (Ashenvale civs that can produce macemen, would produce a axeman, ashenvale civs that can produce axeman, a warrior, ashenvale civs that can produce pikemen, a maceman. Etc.)


Any or all of these would seperate the religions slightly in use and purpose. As of right now, i particularly use religion to content my people. Acess to units is also nice, but if every religion does this, its a choice in "which units" do i want. A slightly different methodology (like leaves citys making ancient forests), creates very interseting choices and diliemae.
-Qes

A few ways to make the game fun are to manifest entropic (not magical) effects in the game, and give a pay out for them in some other regard, this slows the powerlevels of the world (Development, technology, etc), but increases the fluidity and dynamic interactions of the civs invovled IN that world.

A Few thoughts on possible religion boosts (as to make them more pertenant beyond mere happiness and population control):


Octopus Overlords: When Razing a city, half the population is turned into slaves. This would create incentive for OO to raze cities instead of capturing them.

The Order: When capturing a city, allow the option (despite a lack of an inquisitor) to "purge the city". A few population points are lost, but all non-order relgions are expunged. Also, eliminate the "Draft" unhappiness penalty in Order Cities.

Runes of Kilmoprh: When Losing a city, the city lost imediately loses its (kilmoprh) religion, but the money from sacking the city for the opposing civ is halved. (The kilmorph followers flee the city with the potential gold.)

Leaves: Double War-wariness in Leaves cities, A captured leaves city takes twice as long to end a revolt. (if 6 normal turns, 12 for a former leaves(state-religion) city.)

Ashen Vale: Military units may "pillage" own towns/villages/cottages for gold, and my "recruit" units in townsvillages/cottages. Recruitment shrinks the improvment, as pillaging does, but produces a weak military unit. Perhaps a melee unit one technological level under the maximum. (Ashenvale civs that can produce macemen, would produce a axeman, ashenvale civs that can produce axeman, a warrior, ashenvale civs that can produce pikemen, a maceman. Etc.)


Any or all of these would seperate the religions slightly in use and purpose. As of right now, i particularly use religion to content my people. Acess to units is also nice, but if every religion does this, its a choice in "which units" do i want. A slightly different methodology (like leaves citys making ancient forests), creates very interseting choices and diliemae.
-Qes

Yeah, we actually have granting slaves on city raze on the wish list, it just hasnt been added yet.

those are really neat ideas, though can't you pillage your own improvements for gold already?

the order purging would fit quite well

the runes one seems the opposite of what i'd expect, i mean, typically people arent able to run away, and (atleast for dwarves), they seem more likely to have gold stockpiled in each city (so they'd given more gold than usual on capture).

I have a feeling that an ability to pillage your own improvements would have the possibility of getting a bit tedious. After all, for maximum benefit you should build an improvement, then pillage, then build an improvement, then pillage...

Also, after QES mentioned super spells in the late-game tech thread, I started thinking about the One Ring, which made me think about Ringwraiths, which gave me a new idea for the Veil. How about this - whenever an Ashen Veil player destroys another civilization, the leader of that civilization is slain and brought back as an undead warrior to serve in the ranks of the Veil. The Veil player would get an otherwise non-buildable Death Knight unit, named after the killed leader in question and given appropriate promotions (a Defensive leader would get the Defensive promotion, an Organized maybe a multiple-use Recruit ability, and so on). Maybe even give every Death Knight the Hero promotion, if you wanted to make them really tough.

those are really neat ideas, though can't you pillage your own improvements for gold already?

the order purging would fit quite well

the runes one seems the opposite of what i'd expect, i mean, typically people arent able to run away, and (atleast for dwarves), they seem more likely to have gold stockpiled in each city (so they'd given more gold than usual on capture).

I was trying to fit the theme of "money hoarding" My thoughts are that the kilimorph followers (since a turn is a year) got out before the badness hit, and took their monies with them.
-Qes

I have a feeling that an ability to pillage your own improvements would have the possibility of getting a bit tedious. After all, for maximum benefit you should build an improvement, then pillage, then build an improvement, then pillage...

Also, after QES mentioned super spells in the late-game tech thread, I started thinking about the One Ring, which made me think about Ringwraiths, which gave me a new idea for the Veil. How about this - whenever an Ashen Veil player destroys another civilization, the leader of that civilization is slain and brought back as an undead warrior to serve in the ranks of the Veil. The Veil player would get an otherwise non-buildable Death Knight unit, named after the killed leader in question and given appropriate promotions (a Defensive leader would get the Defensive promotion, an Organized maybe a multiple-use Recruit ability, and so on). Maybe even give every Death Knight the Hero promotion, if you wanted to make them really tough.

I smell Warcraft III deathknights. :).

On Pillaging one's own land. I see this as a way to beat seigers. If your lands are going to be pillaged ANYWAY, dont youwant a share of the gold? IF an army is invading, and you're going to have to hide behind your walls before defeating it, why not use fast units to pillage your own lands first, gaining the money they would have otherwise gotten from you. That money can be invested, and then when you win back your lands, it will not have stung as much. PLus if you deny a civ's war machine money its going to be harder for them to continue, especially if they're using war-based civics. As those civic options generaly require the influx of funds from the war itself.

Generally speaking on eliminating civs.......my preference is to keep all civs alive (if possible) until the late game. And at that point, i would prefer if most civs choose the RAZE option instead of caputring a city, so that it doesnt snowball if one civ happens to start winning.

But i just like epic conflicts.
-Qes

kinda like the russians scorched earth policy in WWII

It may be neat if all existing barbarians become demons, some new demons are spawned (if there arent very many), "barbarian" trait civs lose their alliance with the barbs and ashen veil civs gain an alliance with the barbs.


The more I think about this idea the more I like it. What about spawning a named 'hero' demon unit for the barbarians? Something like 20str+. The more destruction this demon is allowed to cause the more powerful he becomes / the more minions he gets.

It could be incoperated as a Armageddon spell but I'd rather see it was a semi-random event or something scripted. Maybe only happening if an Ashen civ borders a Order civ? It'd be neat to have this event happen as an Ashen player and suddenly switch productiong to some of the Armageddon spells to indirectly help the demon raze the earth (except you of course).

Also, would it be possible to 'seperate' some of the armageddon things to require a state religion to research? Have the evil armageddons researchable by evil religions. Good by good, and neutral by everyone irregardless by religion. It just seems odd that one tech gives you such a diverse array of options for wonders.

I like some of the idea that have come up here. I especially like the barb-demon idea for the ashen veil. But to add to the idea i was thinking that there should be like a "Golden age" (or because of their evilness an age of darkness) that only the ashen adopters could get that would allow them to do these things. During this period in time (probably about 20 more or less turns) the civ could do the pillaging thing that QES was talking about and it would be a period when they could build the demon alter that Keal mentioned (meaning after it is built you can then go and sacrifice units (or great people?) for the special ashen techs). There could also be a special tech tree for this religion that would lead to a diffrent armaggedon (or maybe rituals) only for the veil.

I was also thinking there should be a counter to this for the Order. They would have an age of light where they could also do special order-only things.

This would make it seem like they're compeating for a better (or worse) end of the world.

~CivKid~

I voted the Veil because I like the way it works and its flavour.

@Veil CTD issue:
I had one right when I was about to win a religious victory, and believe me: it's not pleasant...

Yeah, we actually have granting slaves on city raze on the wish list, it just hasnt been added yet.

Seems to me that the poll indicates that the OO are quite powerful enough. Maybe we need some ways to make the other religions better before we amp up the OO any more?

In my opinion it all comes down to your leaders traits. (I`m just considering the three "starting" religions)

Creative --> Runes (Nice combo, culture/gold)
Others --> OO (No need for costly obelisks)
Ljosalfar --> Fellowship

The Balseraphs are an exception. They should be OO, cause that is AFAIK the only way to get slaves, who are great in freak shows....

BTW, is it possible to let the Balseraphs get slaves in another way? Like for instance a promotion to scouts/acrobats and so on. Fooling, for instance (I`d love the message "your acrobat has fooled a X warrior into slavery")

In my opinion it all comes down to your leaders traits. (I`m just considering the three "starting" religions)

Creative --> Runes (Nice combo, culture/gold)
Others --> OO (No need for costly obelisks)
Ljosalfar --> Fellowship

The Balseraphs are an exception. They should be OO, cause that is AFAIK the only way to get slaves, who are great in freak shows....

BTW, is it possible to let the Balseraphs get slaves in another way? Like for instance a promotion to scouts/acrobats and so on. Fooling, for instance (I`d love the message "your acrobat has fooled a X warrior into slavery")

The taskmaster unique unit for the balseraphs can enslave units no matter which civics you have.

The taskmaster unique unit for the balseraphs can enslave units no matter which civics you have.

Thanks for the info. I haven`t played the Balseraphs that much....

But the Taskmaster units makes it a lot more tempting :)

RUNES! cash+cash rushing= massive army/empire nuff said.


hehe, although the OO is kinda neat too.

Idea for the Veil: if a unit of you dies, there's a chance you get a Diseased Corpse for free in the capital or near the battle site.

Idea for the Veil: if a unit of you dies, there's a chance you get a Diseased Corpse for free in the capital or near the battle site.

A refinement: as someone suggested in the Civics thread, perhaps make this possible under the Sacrifice The Weak civic, and not just the Veil in general? Also perhaps make it possible only for Diseased units. As it is, since the Overlords and Veil can't Cure Disease, for those two religions causing disease to your enemies isn't smart, cause you'll get it back in your face. Annoying since that means the Veil can't fully use their special unit: the Diseased Corpse. But if the Veil could get Diseased Corpses out of their diseased units dying, using disease yourself offensively might become more attractive.

I havent played as the Overlords yet, but from my experience of the other religions, I think Order is very strong. Altough it comes later than the others, It spreads so quickly that that makes up for it.

But the main reason i like it is because i like going on crusades and "holy wars". Destroying the evil demons of the Ashen Veil with my Palidins, Crusaders, and with Sphener.

But the main reason i like it is because i like going on crusades and "holy wars". Destroying the evil demond of the Ashen Veil with my Palidins, Crusaders, and with Sphener.

You mean Jihads? :P

nevermind, deleted.

Voted runes, I consider them the best now, lots of money, soldier of k. rushing after the conquest.

But I'd like to see better veil, because that is the flavour I've always played in ad&d - knowledge at any costs. Veil could get beakers for sacrificing defeated units transformed to "doomed souls" on the altar. I don't like to sacrifice my own units because I build them for war. I can choose production->research with the same effect. And stronger Balor might help. It is summoned both by veil high priest and mardero (which can soon make one with combat 5).

Just because a religion didn't receive best doesn't mean it's underpowered. A lot of people could consider it to be their second pick (even though that's very unlikely).

The coolest religion is the Fellowship of Leaves, because this is the only one who can change the lands by creating ancient forests.

Just because a religion didn't receive best doesn't mean it's underpowered. A lot of people could consider it to be their second pick (even though that's very unlikely).

I get the feeling that not a whole lot of people have it as their second pick. When you also consider the fact that its flavor is so awesome, it means that such a low number of votes probably does mean it's underpowered.

This poll has bascially shown a weakness in Ashenvale, Not the particular strengths of the others.
-Qes

I think that it would be proper to make a thread on this (to bring it out of this one) :)

But I'd like to see better veil, because that is the flavour I've always played in ad&d - knowledge at any costs. [...] And stronger Balor might help. It is summoned both by veil high priest and mardero (which can soon make one with combat 5).
I'd also like a stronger Ashen Veil, but I think the Balor is fine as it is. It is already one of the strongest summons, apart from its slow movement speed. With the Summoning trait (Sheaim) they've been incredibly effective in my last Ashen Veil game.

What's probably even more important than better balancing is to fix the Veil CTD, though. The random crashes made me abandon the religion completely. Unfortunately the bug seems to be hard to spot and/or fix, but I'm confident the dev team will find some solution for this sooner or later.

I'll throw in some ideas concerning the veil I had today:
Kael has said he's considering having special techs that can't be researched normally. Along these lines, the following will only be able to be researched with points gained from sacing units in a city with a demon alter (which I don't bother with currently, but if it doesn't should probably take hammer cost and exp into consideration.) Possibly these would be able to be researched normally by the infernals as well. (not neccessary to include all, throwing our all ideas, but approximately in order of power)

Infernal secrets: enables the tainted monastary, a cheap building that gives all priest specialists in the cities it is built in +3 :science:, however, whenever a new tech is researched, every city with a tainted monastary has a chance of spawning a barb imp.

Infernal endurance: All of your units with the unholy taint promotion are immune to disease and able to spread disease.

Infernal Authority: All of your units with Ashen Veil promotion (disciple units and Mardero, I guess) gain free twincast (assuming this applies only to summons and not PoF) OR gain access to Twincast

EDIT: don't infer that this is planned, civkid, I'm only proposing it here, though something analagous will likely be in at some point. :)

Sounds sweet! cant wait for this to come to the mod :)

It strikes me as causality redundancy if the Ashen Vale's Special thing, is research, then given them EXCLUSIVE research, that merely allows them MORE research. Part of the benefits of research is that it grants access (like keys) to other forms of power-gathering.

The ashen vale needs Power-warfare/production based boons. When i think deamons and deamonic thralls, and summoners, and dark cabals of evildoers, i dont think nerds using test tubes and discussing theorums. I think big nasty beast creatres comeing to eat my face. My suggestion? Give ashen vale access to demon units more directly. Maybe the Infernals have their own set of units, like the hippus, etc. But being ashen vale ALSO allows you access to infernal units?
-Qes

Test tubes are a symbol, few techs in FfH could rightly be called theorums, and I would shy away from calling an Ashen Veil priest a nerd. :P
Giving twincast to their priests is one way to get more demons into their hands--and without needing any production bonus.

Yeah maybe allowing twincast would suit the flavour of Ashen Veil (sorcery etc) and give it a decent benefit.

Just as religions and races have unique units why not make religions and races have access to unique techs?

Maybe certain techs could only be researched with the research points received from religion? They would be researched sperately, but would take all of the religion based research points.

Why not give the Ashen vale a Unique type of caster - i.e. Necromancer?

This unit would be a off shoot of the Adept Line. Mage, Conjurer, and Necromancer. It is different in that it can cast a line of spells exclusive to it. That of course, would require death magic, and the state religion of ashen vale.

Raise Dead (Death I) - This spell would be cast on an enemy Unit. If that unit dies (Life mana should cure this like the "Cure disease" spell) a free Skeleton Unit (not summoned) is placed under the control of the Ashen Vale Civ in the location of the Killing Unit.

Legion of Death (Death II) - This spell is cast on a friendly unit. The spell would last for 1-3 turns (make it equivilant to a summon duration). Every time this friendly Unit kills an opposing Unit, a Free Undead unit (about the axeman equivilant) is placed on its tile.

Necromancers could Promote to EITHER SUMMONERS or Archmages. Making them uniquely versitle. Plus carrying their promotions (spells) with them. Perhaps make them a national unit, despite their T2 (caster) status.
-Qes

EDIT: OR, another less powerful idea, is that A necromancer automatically gives every other unit in his tile the "Legion of death" promotion. The only spells the necromancer would know, would be what he got from nodes and leveling as normal. So, An adept could promote to a necromancer instead of a conjurer. (Replaces the Conjuerer unit for ashenvale civs) The added benefit is that whenever the unit was in a tile with other units, those other units would gain the "Legion of Death" promotion from above.

A necromancer would have no reason to upgrade to summoner unless the archmage cap has already been achieved, as it already has summoning giving it the ability to become a spellcasting hybrid between necromancy, sorcery and summoning.

A necromancer would have no reason to upgrade to summoner unless the archmage cap has already been achieved, as it already has summoning giving it the ability to become a spellcasting hybrid between necromancy, sorcery and summoning.

Yeah i like my second option better. Still some sort of unit for the ashen vale, along similar lines would be a boon to them and make me want ashen vale. As it is right now..... Its, well, does anyone ever shoot for it? Or just get it if it happens to be along the way and not inconvenient?
-Qes

i go for it anytime im evil

Its, well, does anyone ever shoot for it? Or just get it if it happens to be along the way and not inconvenient?

I don't grab it even then...

i go for it anytime im evil

For flavor or tactics? What reasons? Im curious.
-Qes

flavour, and also any religion is useful by default (holy cities with the holy wonder can provide gold) so it never hurts to get them.

flavour, and also any religion is useful by default (holy cities with the holy wonder can provide gold) so it never hurts to get them.

Well, but thats such a small boost when comparing to a tech that may provide a tangible benefit to multiple cities. I understand the flavor, but thats the only time i go for it. Its not like ashen vale has a "niche" that i find would be very useful ever, or even a mechanic that make s me crave it. THe coolest part about it is how its anti-order. But, really without much as to "Why" it's so uber and dangerous in the world.
-Qes

Well, but thats such a small boost when comparing to a tech that may provide a tangible benefit to multiple cities. I understand the flavor, but thats the only time i go for it. Its not like ashen vale has a "niche" that i find would be very useful ever, or even a mechanic that make s me crave it. THe coolest part about it is how its anti-order. But, really without much as to "Why" it's so uber and dangerous in the world.
-Qes

Is it possible to have the stats of spells change with the religion? The Ashen Veil is in the business of sorcery and summoning, so I'd assume they're casters would have an extra kick. Maybe their mages summon base strenght 4 fireballs, or their meteors have longer range. Perhaps all of they're summons are replaced with demon versions (law summons are now demon lawyers!). :D Just tossing ideas out.

Maybe increased spellcaster XP rate like the Arcane trait for Ashen Veil Civs?

Maybe increased spellcaster XP rate like the Arcane trait for Ashen Veil Civs?

A thought, but then you ax one of the Sheam's reasons for pursing Ashen Veil. I mean, you want the Ashen civs to favor magical shennanigans with an evil twist right? I don't think you just want to up the XP rate because you could just as easily use it to soup up your law students :mischief: . I'd like to color everything the ashen veil does with powerful evil looking demons :D Or something like that...

Hm... I was thinking of a synergy like Leaves and Elves, but we wouldn't want them to be the same bonus, even if they stack. How about spellcasters gain an extra free promotion every time they upgrade? Powerful, yes. Overpowering... probably not.

How about a making it get an ashen veil spell sphere giving it 3 new spells in sorcery/summoning/divine

flavour, and also any religion is useful by default (holy cities with the holy wonder can provide gold) so it never hurts to get them.

Actually, the Ashen Veil holy city provides beakers, not gold.

I get it when I'm playing evil, but for flavor. And I make it my state religion. And weep when I get CTDs afterwards...

It does have a very nice STR 15 hero, and the priests have access to the best fire spells, so it does have some endgame power. Too bad about the CTDs that make it unplayable after a while.

Personally Im for the runes, but the Veil is a bit underrated. The science boost can be huge, but to make it effective (giving you a distinct technological advantage) you would most likely have to B-line straight for it. This would mostlikely cause you to neglect other "essential" starting techs.

I usually try to get the Veil holy city mainly to prevent other civs from getting the science boost, but I keep running one of the early religions (my favorites being OO and Kilmorph). I only tried to run the Veil as a state religion a couple of times, and didn't felt "rewarded" for it, so I now just pick up the holy city, spread the religion to my commerce-efficient cities to get those few extra beakers and then don't worry too much about it. Note that the same way, I usually spend a few turns researching the Order tech so I can build Order temples in my military-producing cities. There's a dinstinct advantage to being able to build multiple temples in a city, and the fact that you have to research the religious techs* really gives an incent to do so. Getting the Holy City is an added bonus, but missing it isn't that bad either.

* at least when playing with no tech trading...

I voted for Runes, as it can work with any civ.

There seems to be a problem with Ashen Veil (AV). We need to ask ourselves Why.
What benifits do religions give.
1) City benifits for having it as your state religion (SR).
2) Benifits you get for having the holy city.
3) Effect Temple gives.
4) Special troops or buildings you have access to.

Now, I'll try to see why people think the AV is it worse:
1) It only get's +1 culture, lowest there is.
2) Now you get +1 science per city, which seem to me to be on par with +1gold, just harder to use in as effective a way.
3) Temple Effect. Again, this seems to be on-par with other temples, give same amount of benifits (ok, only +2beakers and not +3 gold) but it's average.
4) Special Troops & building, civs only for that religion. As far as I can see, no buildings and just one troop, which is also harmfull to your own troops. If you then get sacrifice the weak, your cost goes down, but so does you GPR and you become more unhealthy.

So, overall, parts 1 & 4 are the reasons the AVis seen as week when compared to all other religions. There needs to be an increase in either parts 1 or 4, but 4 would give you a better feel for a religion.

So, how do you improve the religion? Fix the problems
Troops: The fact they give disease that your troops cannot cure does make them stupid to use, so maybe an immunity is the ans. So if AV is your SR, then your troops get a +75% increase chance at resisting disease.

Civs: Sacrifice the weak.
This would make a big change in perception of Civ. I don't understand why Sacrifice the Week has the hinderances is does. Why a negative GPR, I don't see how you would get less great people, infact i'd think more could happen. Why is this you ask, well, if you are a scientist, then you can use people to experiment on. An engineer would have slave labour to help with his work. I admit a more evil type of person would come, but they could prob be produced quicker. So, change -ve GPR to a +ve GPR.

Finally.....Slaves: I'm not sure, but can AV also have Slavery as a civic or is it just OO that can?
Think is not, then STW should also give yu access to Slavery.

Note that their cultist are (as far as I'm concerned) more powerful than priests of other religions due to their spell selections. Not only can they get ring of fire for stack destruction, they also get summoning and death, allowing the very useful Nightmare summons.

They also get a special building, the Demon Altar... but it's pretty much useless, as far as I'm concerned.


One thing I would like to see is a necromancy-themed building that converts all the citizens of a city to mindless undead.

Perhaps something along the lines of:

Good Building Name Here
Buildable with: Necromancy and Corruption of Spirit
Requires: Death Mana, Ashen Veil in city and as state religion.
Effects: No unhappiness, no unhealthiness, no gold, no beakers, no further culture growth.


You'd have large and productive cities, but they'd be unable to even pay their own maintenance.

Maybe increased spellcaster XP rate like the Arcane trait for Ashen Veil Civs?
if the arcane trait doubles the xp gained by spellcasters, then the ashen veil could double it again giving very very good synergy-but seriously, even if it only gave 300% xp for arcane and veil i would go for the veill

Maybe Ashen Veil should have less of a penalty for treating your civilization poorly (i.e. PopRushing or Feasting on the population).

The best religion often depends on your civilization. I'm really liking the combination Fellowship of Leaves and Calabim.

I love Calabim+FoL too... I always own whit them

In my current game, i have calabim and FoL too, but my dilemma stems more from the fact that going after the heroes occors on such different branches, Is it worth going after Losha first more than the FoL heroes? I have never had Losha before

dunno, i always go

- get FoL
- get Bronze Working, if copper go moroi-conquest, if not go builder
- if still conquering, go for losha, if builder, go for vampire and start conquering (then get losha)

dunno, i always go

- get FoL
- get Bronze Working, if copper go moroi-conquest, if not go builder
- if still conquering, go for losha, if builder, go for vampire and start conquering (then get losha)

Thanks, I got FoL from a goodie hut while i was on my way for OO and decided why not, already have both moroi and vampires and have eliminated 2 civs by yr 275 but want my very own hero and was unsure which path to head down, will go for Losha now

I've started developing a new tactic with the vampires and moroi. Gifting Moroi's vampirism. I'll have atleast as many vampires as I have cities, then I pump them up in a good manor by feasting, and in the smaller cities I go for mass production of Moroi's. When the Moroi's are lvl 4 i grant them vampirism, which makes them even stronger (+10% strenght and +healing, apart from being vampires).

It should be easier to get lvl 4 with Flauros maybe, considering he can build command posts. (Although, would be lacking the combat I promo). I just cant change from Alexis though ;).