COTM 27: China!


Civilization: China
Rivals: 7 pre-selected.
Barbarians: None
Difficulty: Demi-God
Land Form: Continents, 60% ocean, standard map.
Geology: 5 billion years old, Temperate, normal.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/cotm27large.jpg
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/cotm27mini.jpg

Special note: This game is with "Most Aggressive AI".

Conquest-Class Bonuses:

Start with a bonus worker, settler and two spearman.


Predator-Class Equalisers:
Start knowing no technologies.
AI free units increased to SID level.

Woot! I've been expecting China for a long time now :dance:. I always used to play China in my own games, but haven't done so since I became a competent player, cos I've only played xOTM since then.
1 NW looks like a good spot. There seems to be sugar in the fog to south; both that and the oases act as beegee equivalents. But is it worth looking over the hills in the hope of seeing another food bonus? There are deserts there which might hold a river...

With most Aggressive AI on Demigod Level, isn't it better to stay where you ar and settle on spot?

Well, what's one turn between friends? With three beegees and the moo, we can do the very versatile 6x10 shield combo factory like we had in the Roman game.
But yeah, I'm scared by Most Agressive demigods.

Incidentally, does the predator handicap "free units" refer to AI starting units or t/c/m unit support? GOTM57 pregame thread said "AI free units increased to emperor level" but the download page said "AI unit support is increased to emperor level", and I'm not sure which it was in the end.

There is sugar 2 SW of the settler's current position. ;)

Worker to the cow, settler 1 NW, build a few (3) warriors to scout and a settler before starting the granary. I want an archer factory up and running asap, i dont trust Demi-God AIs.

I will settle one tile SW. There is sugar 2 SW of the settler's current position. ;)

Most likely you will want to use the "highest powered" tile ASAP, which rules out a move SW. SW will keep the cow out of your borders until turn 10, which could (potentially) cost you a couple of good city locations.

Most likely you will want to use the "highest powered" tile ASAP, which rules out a move SW. SW will keep the cow out of your borders until turn 10, which could (potentially) cost you a couple of good city locations.
I thought about that...and now I shall edit my post. thanks for the heads up.

Cool, I've been wanting a Demigawd game. But most aggressive AI? :scared:

There is sugar 2 SW of the settler's current position. ;)
hmm, so the starting porsition will get +4 food (irrigated cow) and 2 bg-lookalikes (mined oasis and mined sugar). A shame we can't see an extra food somewhere. I don't suppose you foggazers can say something about the north east and sout east ?
Moving the worker first to the cow will reveal an extra 3 tiles in the starting fat cross though.

Perhaps research to the wheel first and with nearby horses research to hbr second could be in order. Probably the best way to deal with "most aggressive AI" is being a "most agressive HI".

Is there a Predator Conquest Challenge for this game?

What are you talking about?

What are you talking about?
Usually there are people who like playing on Predator, but feel that they need a challenge once in a while. usually the people in the Predator Challenges are tR1cky, Niklas, PaperBeetle, Paul #42 and such. :devil:

We have only issued Predator Challenges for the GOTM games, I guess because tR1cKy has been the source of them and he (like me) only plays the GOTMs. But if you want one, why not simply issue one for this game? They are really fun! :)

EDIT: I should add to those who don't know what they are, it's not about handicapping ourselves further than predator. But since the participation has dropped for GOTM, we set up a single victory condition that all of those who join the challenge go for. That guarantees that we'll have someone to compare our games with, and compete against.

Then a Predator Conquest Challenge is issued :devil:

Move worker to cow, if there's nothing on the plain 1NW I'll re-do maths and make sure I have my 6t horse/settler a-workin.

Map is continents so I'll go for a builder's tech tree towards rep, MM, and chivalry. Game should end there.

Oh dear, demigod!!!!!!!!:eek:
Emperor is a challenge for me, and most aggressive AI's!!:cry:
I will settle city 1 NW, and city 2, probably W,SW,SW of start location.





_________________
Do NOT trust your cat. They are vicious and killing, and look like Curt Schilling.
They'd eat you soon as look at you. Maybe sooner.

Well, This is going to be a VERY rude awakening for me... I've never played Demi-God before, and have a tough time with the monarch difficulty...:help:

I'm going to do the same as just about everyone else, worker to cow, settler one NW. I'm thinking this will be a good time to try out an infinite city sprawl city layout. It's against my usual style, but I don't plan on winning this one anyway. :spear:

Just out of curiosity, anybody gonna play Conquest-Class?

Everybody looking for a good time but emperor or below level ;)

Im a Monarch player moving up to Emperor and I'm playing open class. For some reason, playing in Conquest-Class just doesent seem right to me... :undecide:

Im a Monarch player moving up to Emperor and I'm playing open class. For some reason, playing in Conquest-Class just doesent seem right to me... :undecide:

Monarch - Emperor didnt give me too much trouble, compared to my pathetic attempts at Demi-God so far.

I can win on Emperor as long as it isn't a pangaea. China has good traits for a warmongerer (military-industrial). Playing open, as usual, make up the victory condition as I go along, we'll see what happens.

Monarch - Emperor didnt give me too much trouble, compared to my pathetic attempts at Demi-God so far.
What I mean is , as a Monarch -> Emperor player, Im trying this COTM(Demigod level) as open class. :)
I can win on Emperor as long as it isn't a pangaea. China has good traits for a warmongerer (military-industrial). Playing open, as usual, make up the victory condition as I go along, we'll see what happens.
Pangaea on emperor is harder because of the quick tech race, I'm currently playing with the Mayans on a 70% continents and tech pace is going smooth. China seems like a good civ to me, like you said, militaristic + industrial is a great combo, though I wonder if anyone is going to try any of the builder VC's? :mischief: (I probably will...)

Just out of curiosity, anybody gonna play Conquest-Class?

I was considering it, but then decided against doing so. I need a good stomping by the AI every once in a while.

I just realized the problem with the Most agressive AI. My usual "If all else fails, go for diplomacy" probably won't work... This is going to be humiliating.

It also means the AI's will cripple themselves in internal wars, often. Getting a lead in techs and whatnot is going to be easier, given you pull a good military force to keep you out of trouble when it comes.

I think the Most Aggressive AI will be an advantage. You can usually still suck up to the AI's, and they are more likely to attack each other.

Well Ansar I am still thinking about it. Played the deity GOTM on coonquest and it went okish, until I got grounded to dust in an AI dogpile late in the MA.

But How about an open Survivor/Domination Challenge for everyone who has never succesfully finished a XOTM above emperor and isnt beating up Deity AIs regurlarly in his fun games?

The earliest DOM Victory wins, or in the (to be expected) absence of any victory the longest survoivor?

I'll be trying for a domination win, since in the last 3 COTM's, I've gone quite well in the 2 which i attempted to dominate the world. (Rome and Persia COTMs)

Open Domination Challenge? Sure. :hammer:

Alliances with the AI will probably make the game easier, though I'm not the warmonger type, I guess I'll try to be warmongerish. :p

I won't do conquest, I dont like starting with bonuses.

I might have some time to play this one and after finishing Gotm57 in two hours, I'd like a longer game this time. So no Predator Domination / Conquest Challenge for me.

It might be another 20k - although this might be tough against demigod-AI... I'll ask Excel when I will finish if I fail to get a single AA wonder... :blush:

Palace prebuild would be essential this time - so the 20k-town goes to a river (with fp, wheat and hills) nearby... :mischief:

Can we get the save, please? :D

Open domination/survival? I'm totally in! If I can make it out of the B.C.s while in a decent position, I'll be happy.:goodjob:

This is going to make me really pay close attention to this game though.

I think the best goal would be to have a hefty military throughout the entire game, both to take down pesky/small enemies, and to keep those larger enemies out of my cities. I think I'll try for the republic slingshot, and then try to get to swords soon afterwards. That should allow me to attack a nearby enemy, and hopefully expand my borders pretty well.

Looking forward to it!

To guess the map style, IMHO,
if it's difficulty is Warlord , horse and iron will far away,
even the house on the other continents.
and all "good AI" surrounding you. Rome, Greece, and Carthage etc etc...

since it's Demi-God, the iron maybe nearby, and we might settle on a horse!
and we may own a fairly good landmass without any AI in at least 10 tiles radius.

@redbad -- moving (settling) NW will make 1 oasis available for use before the cultural expansion without losing the sugar 2 SW. With the moo, even if it's mined, we'll have a 2nd citizen before cultural expansion. Seems worth it to me to burn 1 turn. What do you think?

(anyone) Research: I think the slingshot is unlikely, although with the bonus Conquest settler _maybe_ it's possible. Maybe Pottery, Wheel, Iron Working. I'm thinking of Map Making before HBR--or is putting Caravels before Horses asking to be squashed?

If no AI's start w/alpha, i will aim for some sort of slingshot (most likely Lit). If 1-2 AI's, I'll make a decision depending on who they are. If 3 or more have alpha, i will abolish all plans for a slingshot, and do Pottery, Wheel, Iron Working, followed by HBR if i have horses, otherwise Maths.

@redbad -- moving (settling) NW will make 1 oasis available for use before the cultural expansion without losing the sugar 2 SW. With the moo, even if it's mined, we'll have a 2nd citizen before cultural expansion. Seems worth it to me to burn 1 turn. What do you think?

Yes, it's a good move for a shield rich start. For myself I value in the beginning food and commerce more. Settling in place not only starts the empire a turn sooner, it also leaves another 2 city sites at the lake, 2NW and WSW.

If we do have an extra food bonus then 2 bg-like tiles combined with the 2 shields from the forest on growth, should be enough for a settler factory. If we don't have an extra food, then the 2NW-position also can use the cow. In any case I would irrigate the moo.

Growth is indeed sooner then expansion, but working the lake in between isn't all that bad either. It does give 2 food and 2 commerce.

I don't intend on doing a slingshot. Getting republic with it is very unlikely and getting any other tech is questionable and hardly worth the effort. I'd rather prepare for war, save money and mainly buy or pointy stick my ancient age research.

Ansar and revenge, ok lets see who makes it into AD.

May the RNG be with you.

Ansar and revenge, ok lets see who makes it into AD.

May the RNG be with you.

Dont forget me!

Well I was going to issue my own Pacifist Challenge, but it seems we're all challenged out. Nevertheless I shall go for a 5CC 20K win. Mainly 'cause I don't expect to be able to build many more than five cities before the AI has grabbed the rest of the land, and because I am bored and bewildered by military VCs.

I can't actually see the map right now for some reason, but if you can see the absolute worst spot to settle that's where I'll be. This is not an attempt to further handicap myself, it's just incompetence.

@ azzaman, you are in .

I almost think that nw would be optimal start place while 2 sw on other side of lake be good 2nd city. City 1 does a warrior, settler, granary, city 2 can do 2 warriors settler granary and you should have 2 settler pump or 1 settler pump 1 worker pump to get a good jump, and with overlapping tiles to share as they (hopefully) alternate population/laborers. I normally find that in deity, most aggressive ai or not.... they will leave you alone as long as u give into their demands, keep a low bank for teching all out and having little to hand over when (not if) they start asking for appeasements. If you try to buy techs, u will find other civs asking for gold, and u handing it over or them handing you a war u can't win early. If you can get 15 cities and a republic at or near forbidden palace completion, you will be set to catch up on techs. The key here is getting Riders before they get muskets. And the moment you get rider's u need to kick the crap out of 1 or 2 civs to make up for the rapid expansion they will have in the beginning. Thank god for that cow, otherwise agri civs would claim the whole continent before we can get 6 cities.

I don't intend on doing a slingshot. Getting republic with it is very unlikely and getting any other tech is questionable and hardly worth the effort. I'd rather prepare for war, save money and mainly buy or pointy stick my ancient age research.

Blast your unflawed logic!

I guess a literature slingshot is far more likely, and even then it may be a difficult venture. I think a fast stack of archers would be a good method for keeping those agressive AIs out of my lands, and maybe I could tackle a nearby city or two with them. Does this seem viable? Or does a sword stack seem more reasonable?

Ansar, Azzaman, the challenge is set, may the best player win... Or at least live the longest.

Can't wait!:cool:

One thing I like doing is go for CoL with philo. Experience taught me I could get away with it on a good enough start; this would probably qualify if I have a second high food city... and it brings us several milestones closer to Republic. Without libs however the trek is longer, so I have to beg for more experienced feedback on here: would it be faster, with a lib prebuild or two, to go lit with philo?

Theoretically yes. Republic on a standard map at demigod level takes 960 beakers. CoL needs 342 beakers and libraries amplify research by half. As Republic is more then twice the beakers of CoL you can research CoL + Republic faster with libraries then researching only Republic without libraries.

But that’s theoretically. In practice you won’t have libraries in every city and there’s corruption to consider also. But the main problem is of course the enormous costs of building those libraries so early. It will seriously jeopardise your much needed military, the much needed settlers and the much needed workers. Building those libraries will leave you smaller then you would be without building them. So the libraries won’t increase your beakers with 50%.

If you really are aiming to get to Republic asap, then my advice would be:
Research alphabet, writing, philosophy (get free CoL) and republic. All research at max. Buy alphabet as soon as you can and don’t sell writing before nearly finished on philosophy. And while doing all this research: grow, grow, grow. So emphasise food and commerce and build warriors, workers and settlers and possibly 1 or 2 granaries.

And... realise there's still a real possibility you have to research CoL too.

I think a fast stack of archers would be a good method for keeping those agressive AIs out of my lands, and maybe I could tackle a nearby city or two with them. Does this seem viable? Or does a sword stack seem more reasonable?

It's certainly viable, but not really optimal. We are chinese and the ocean is only 60%. So kicking ass with horsies would be my choice ;)

you can also try the Philosophy Gambit - go writing/Philo and hope you can trade for CoL - AI's will tend to go for that before Philo, though it's not something that always happens.

And, of course, you could just go minimum and set 1 city on a palace pre-build for the GLib and get Republic that way, saving all your money for a mass horseman to rider upgrade and sweep all available land.

Yeah, I just didn't rationalize the 340 vs 960. Lib costs do play a big role though. I guess it would be very very worthwhile on large/huge maps where corruption is a lesser factor and costs are even higher. Not much on standard though. Thanks bearded one.

A free tech is a free tech and I am certainly not going to pass up the chance for one. I've pulled off a Republic slingshot at demi before. It's unlikely when you don't start with Alphabet so I'll simply make a beeline for Philo and take the most expensive monopoly tech I can get. Who knows? It might be Republic. In any case, 342 is not as good as 960 but it's still a helluva lot better than nothing. And 480, or whatever the cost of Construction is, is better than 342.

If lit is the best thing out there, take it. But don't build libraries in the early game. Soldiers have a better ROI.

Edit: my beeline might involve pottery (for granaries) and math (for trading) but if I think I have a reasonable chance at Philo after Writing, I am certainly going for it. Why wouldn't I? It's the best choice at this point. The AI doesn't go for it, meaning that you have a decent shot at a monopoly. It gives a free tech. And it's on the road to republic. What's not to like about it?

And, of course, you could just go minimum and set 1 city on a palace pre-build for the GLib and get Republic that way, saving all your money for a mass horseman to rider upgrade and sweep all available land.Don't go minimum. Don't go upgrade. Don't go GLib. This is not vanilla and it is not SID. Building horsies is fine. But don't stockpile them. Use 'em. :D

revise my guess.
this is useful information:

Conquest-Class Bonuses:
Start with a bonus worker, settler and two spearman.

two spear!, so there must AI nearby.


Spoiler 1:
......
Requires that you have a full-view of the starting continent.

so I guess We land on a fairly small continent but not so small like the carthage island last month, with 1-2 AIs , and maybe other 5-6 rivals on a large continents or share other two continents.

Just out of curiosity, anybody gonna play Conquest-Class?

I will. I've never played on D-G level and need all the help I can get.

Well I was going to issue my own Pacifist Challenge

I'm definitely going to war this time out, but for future reference, what are the exact terms? I might take you up on it next month.

Blast your unflawed logic!

I think a fast stack of archers would be a good method for keeping those agressive AIs out of my lands, and maybe I could tackle a nearby city or two with them. Does this seem viable?
Can't wait!:cool:

I'm giving some serious thought to an archer rush, myself.

Would we better making warriors or archers from the begining? I'm not used to having a choice between the two at the begining.

warriors for MP.

find horses.

Conquer the world with horsies (riders preferrably. :hammer:)

Would we better making warriors or archers from the begining? I'm not used to having a choice between the two at the begining.

Basically, Warriors before the Barracks and Archers after.

From another perspective, it's not Warriors or Archers, but Settlers or Archers. You tend to use Archers if you don't use Settlers in the early phases. The use of Warriors is less dependent on the honouring of a Warrior Code.

The use of Archers when both Iron and Horses are missing I assume is not covered by the question.

In this game I hope to build a Granary in the capital and the Barracks only later. So build order something like Warrior-Warrior-Granary-Settler-Barracks, then operate as a 6x10-Shield Combo Factory. In the beginning a mix of Warriors and Archers, then depending on the Strategic Resource situation either Horsemen, Swordsmen or 3 Warriors for the thirty shields. If we are boxed in early on, this plan fails and we must start with the Barracks and just pour out Archers, nothing else.

At low difficulty levels you ususally never need Archers unless you decide to go for a Rush. The basics apply: Barracks before Archers, either Settlers or Archers.

With three beegees and the moo, we can do the very versatile 6x10 shield combo factory

Just back from a little holiday trip, and seeing that the first spoiler thread is already out I'm obviously a little late here.

Downloaded the save (open) yesterday but was too tired to dare open it, which appears to have been just the right decision. I also bought Warlords and haven't even installed it yet. We'll see if I'll have time to finish this one.

Looking at the picture today and comparing with the comments I'm surprised that no one pointed out (saw?) that the Cattle is on a Bonus Grassland! That gray spot is not the udder! I even saw a suggestion to mine the Cattle -- that's useless under Despotism.

So we'd need only two mined Bonus Grassland tiles, or equivalents such as Oasis and Sugar Plains, and two Plains tiles, one irrigated and one mined, together with the Cattle and Lake tiles to complete our 6x10 4.8-6.8 Combo Factory. Don't look any further, I'll certainly settle in place. (Unless Worker N reveals another surplus food.)

I'm definitely going to war this time out, but for future reference, what are the exact terms? I might take you up on it next month.

Well I'm not really sure. PaperBeetle suggested I might try:
to set the terms and conditions but I had a look and it looks terribly complicated.

My real motivation for a Pacifist Challenge was to simply offer a challenge for a non-military VC, mainly because I'm no good at war (or anything else for that matter, but that's a different story). But the rules should probably be something like:
1) Agree a non-military VC to go for, and any specified variant (like a five city challenge)
2) Never declare war, unless attacked first.
3) Accept peace as soon as it is offered by the AI.
4) Cannot join alliances or military protection pacts with any waring civs, as this would put you at war with a civ that has not directly attacked you (it's OK to join alliances/MPPs in peacetime).

What do you reckon?

I'm sorry to the other Open Survival/Domination challenge players, but I need to drop out. School is starting on monday and I wont have time to play. Unfortunately, I also realized, I have much to learn before moving on to Demigod level. Sorry all, maybe in a later GOTM/COTM. :blush: