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Bede
Jul 28, 2006, 09:18 AM
We have made a new friend of the Purple People.

An introductory note is in order.

Whomp
Jul 28, 2006, 01:47 PM
Booti writes better openings than I but how about this?

Greetings Team Epsilon,

Our warrior Bubba was moving through the jungles and who does he stumble upon?
Your fearsome warrior Dark Puma!

How would you like to set up a meeting between our two countries to discuss this Sirian world of ours.

Cheers,
The Piffles

Oldbus
Jul 28, 2006, 02:03 PM
It sounds reasonable to me.

Whomp
Jul 28, 2006, 02:08 PM
Oldbus if you'd like to fix it to sound more English, with Cockney rhyming slang or something, please do. :D
Like I ate a kebab and ended up with Tia Maria...:mischief:

Oldbus
Jul 28, 2006, 02:49 PM
I'm afraid I can't do Cockney - I'm from Yorkshire. I'll do you a Yorkshire version, but it's one of the less understandable British accents (behind thick Glaswegian, Geordie (Newcastle) and possibly Scouse (Liverpool)) - think Michael Palin doing a caricature accent turned up to 11.

DON'T send this unless they've a couple of players in England otherwise it will be merely dumb rather wacky.

Eh up, Epsilon lads and lasses!

Well, we'll go t'foot of ar stairs - we've met up at last!

Ar' Bubba were walkin' through t'jungle and would tha credit it, but who turns up but yor Dark Puma, who looks a bit o'a fearsome fella, right. Wor'a tha bin up to? - ee's tekken his time abart gettin' ere.

Anyroad, 'ows abowt meetin' up for a bit o'a natter so we's can get t'know each other betta like? We ort to reely, see'in as we're both int'same part o'this Sirian world.

Lookin forrad t'earin' from yer,
t'Piffles

Err...maybe some correspondance in a style suited to our naming of Bubba, Skynard and Billy Bob would be appropriate? I'm definitely not going to attempt that...:lol:

PS I've just run your original note through http://www.whoohoo.co.uk to see how they translated it into Yorkshire. It's not bad, though I'venever met anyone who would have talked quite like that ;) :
Greetings team epsilon, our warrior bubbeur wor movin thru t' jungles 'n whoa does 'e stumble upon? your fearsome warrior dark pumeur! ha 'ood theur li' ta set up eur meetin atwixt wee twoa countries ta discuss dis sirian world o' ours. cheers, the piffles

Conroe
Jul 28, 2006, 02:58 PM
I like it Oldbus! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Err...maybe some correspondance in a style suited to our naming of Bubba, Skynard and Billy Bob would be appropriate? I'm definitely not going to attempt that...:lol:Well, if redneck is what you want, how about something like this:

Howdy, The!

One of our warriors, Bubba, in a drunken stuper as usual, stumbled into the jungle last night and almost ran inta Dark Puma. We really hope that Dark Puma wasn't offended by Bubba's lewd and obnoxious behavior!

Hey, listen, The! I hope you don't mind me using your first name, seein' as we just met and all. We're havin' a git together Saturday night. Why don't all ya'll stop by! Its going to be one hoot'n holler of a good time. There'll be plenty of beer, course. We'll throw a few brats on da grill and just get schlockered! What d'ya say, The?

Later,
da Piffles

Whomp
Jul 28, 2006, 03:11 PM
:lol: I think we should send both to prove how truly insane we are. We could explain that we have the proper English version of the message and the good ol' boy who ain't askeered of 'nuffin version. They do have some Aussies on the team and Fe3333au will get a kick out of it.

Whomp
Jul 29, 2006, 09:30 AM
I sent both versions of the message to add a little levity to our meeting and received a message back from Davemcw.

With the skills of Davemcw and Kylearean plus Fe3333au's silver tongue we have met a formidable opponent.
Do we want a long term relationship with these guys or do we need to knock them down with some friends? As we've seen in pitboss a dogpile is a difficult proposition regardless of skill level.
The gmail system was down so we thought we'd send a pm instead. Here are two different messages from our people. We weren't sure which version you'd understand. :D Whomper

Bubba's version

Howdy, The!

One of our warriors, Bubba, in a drunken stupor as usual, stumbled into the jungle last night and almost ran inta Dark Puma. We really hope that Dark Puma wasn't offended by Bubba's lewd and obnoxious behavior!

Hey, listen, The! I hope you don't mind me using your first name, seein' as we just met and all. We're havin' a git together Saturday night. Why don't all ya'll stop by! Its going to be one hoot'n holler of a good time. There'll be plenty of beer, course. We'll throw a few brats on da grill and just get schlockered! What d'ya say, The?

Later,
da Piffles
The Pifflenatress' version

Eh up, Epsilon lads and lasses!

Well, we'll go t'foot of ar stairs - we've met up at last!

Ar' Bubba were walkin' through t'jungle and would tha credit it, but who turns up but yor Dark Puma, who looks a bit o'a fearsome fella, right. Wor'a tha bin up to? - ee's tekken his time abart gettin' ere.

Anyroad, 'ows abowt meetin' up for a bit o'a natter so we's can get t'know each other betta like? We ort to reely, see'in as we're both int'same part o'this Sirian world.

Lookin forrad t'earin' from yer,
t'Piffles

Great to hear from you! I'll forward the message on to the Epsilonan language experts.

Oldbus
Jul 29, 2006, 06:43 PM
Well, that should keep them thinking for a little while :lol: The more we can build on this team's reputation for being wacky and sending out possibly confusing messages the better (I'm sure they'll all realise that is what we're doing, but if it means they have to work harder to figure out what we're up to then it is to our advantage).

As for the relationship bit, I think we should follow the wise advice of professional sportsfolk the world over when they are being interviewed and "take it one turn at a time".

As you said, they have some formidable players, and even being on the outside of that Pitboss game made me realise just how tough an opponent like DaveMcW can be.

This is probably stating the obvious, but:
they'll attempt to destroy us if they think they've a chance
they'll be a tough enemy to have close to us (I'm assuming they are close to us) this early in the game
they'll drop any alliances as soon as they think it is not in their interest
they have got good enough players so that they are unlikely to make a big mistake about whether or not it is in their best interests to be allied to us -no matter what we tell them
as we have seen in the pitboss game, having a reputation for being a good player/team can backfire on you, and they may be a dangerous ally to have even if they keep every promise they make to us


One thing I'd like to find out is if they have met anyone else. Of course, they may not tell us if they have (I think we should be vague about the fact that they are the first team we've met). They may have made exploring a priority in order to set up a lot of one-on-one deals with teams to try and prevent us uniting against them.

How do we normally keep in touch with other teams - PM/email or IRC? Given that we're an anarchy, how do you expect we choose who among us will communicate - whoever happens to be online at the time, or one or more designated folk? Also, in previous incarnations of this team have you used the fact that we could use different team members in order to stall stuff? (I like the idea of meeting a pompous, bureacratic team who are proposing something to our disadvantage and driving their 'nominated representative' nuts by making them communicate with someone different every day :mischief: )

Apologies if I've had an attack of the bleeding obvious in this post, but I'm new to MP and this is where things start to get very different from the solo game, so I'm trying to get to grips with it.

Kickbooti
Jul 30, 2006, 06:32 AM
I can't speak to the deeper issues Olbus raised; I fear I am a 'hacker' (in the golf sense) Civ player and don't spend much time on chats adn the like.

But I can speak to how the anarchy works in the Civ III MTDG.

In the Idiot Anarchy each player has a strenght(s) that they bring to the table and water just seems to flow to its most natural level. We have Geeks, MMers, diplomats, war-mongers and verbose idiots (me). We cut loose with whatever facet of the game makes us happy and as various skill sets are recognized the tema runs with it.

In terms of diplomacy, we usually let Whomp do his thing, he is the mellifuous voice of reason in the chat rooms, and then whoever else is available serves as a foil as needed.

In terms of decision making, we hash things out on the forums and then once there is a concensus (two idiots agreeing on one idea is considered concensus) we run with it.

The nice thing about anarchy is that it facilitates fun, and there haven't really been any people eager to upset that enjoyable balance.

I am not proposing that we reproduce the KISS model from CivIII MTDG wholesale, but since Olbus was stating the obvious, I felt obliged to do the same :D

Whomp
Jul 30, 2006, 11:13 AM
What's interesting between the two MTDG's is we met MIA first and Epsilon first.
Many of the same players from Epsilon are with MIA. MIA was a very good partner for us and potentially could've been through the balance of that game. I feel they are trustyworthy regarding their reputation when signing a treaty, formidable in all forms of game mechanics and as silver tongued as we can be.

In my estimation, they will be there at the end unless we can get the other 3 prepared for a dogpile. We can also make them aware, like pitboss, that their reputation preceeds them and they'll need friends.

As far as diplo goes...most of it is accomplished on MSN or AIM. I've really enjoyed this aspect of the MTDG. What can I say I like talking. Issues and such. :D

I would like some other people to join me in the "art of hmm", asking questions and guessing team's next moves. Who's with me?
Here's a pm from General W
Dear Piffle,

Greetings from the golden halls of Epsilon Eridani! The Leader of Epsilon Team sends you his warm regards.

We have met your brave warrior Bubba in the jungle of this glorious land. And although your warrior’s ways and speech are… strange to us... we are pleased to learn that we are not alone in this world, and look forward to mutual cooperation with your glorious people.

Although it should not be mistaken for a sign of weakness – we are a naturally peaceful people, and if you’ll agree, we believe there is much we can learn and trade together.

So how say you? What are your intentions for this world?
We eagerly await your reply.

Sincerely Yours,
Foreign Minister General_W
Epsilon Team!


P.S. Please let me know if there is just 1 person I should be communicating with.

Conroe
Jul 30, 2006, 01:17 PM
One thing I'd like to find out is if they have met anyone else. Of course, they may not tell us if they have (I think we should be vague about the fact that they are the first team we've met).

I think they provided you with an answer ...

... we are pleased to learn that we are not alone in this world, ...

Kickbooti
Jul 30, 2006, 03:44 PM
I'm for peace, in principal. I only insist that any treaty Bubba negotiates is concluded by spitting on his hand and shaking.

Oldbus
Jul 30, 2006, 04:08 PM
The email from Epsilon in our Gmail box is identical to the PM message.

I agree that our intention should be peace.

Of course, regarding their phrase "we are pleased to learn that we are not alone in this world" - maybe that's what they want us to think :) Of course, they're probably being straight with us.

Maybe we can say to each team 'it is good that we are not alone in this world' - it doesn't imply that we have only just learned this fact.

You'll have seen from the turnplay that there was no sign of Dark Puma.

Whomp
Jul 30, 2006, 07:15 PM
Haha. A few more exchanges. I will try to schedule a specific date. Who's interested in joining me? IIRC we can talk about anything, correct? Tech, land composition etc.

Hi General W,
This may sound strange...but haven't we met before? I'm getting deja vu' or something. :lol:

Well Piffaliens, as we're called, are an unusual group with wide ranging personalities. You are more than welcome to converse with any of our team members. Generally, it's whomever is available but in the meantime I can get the discussions rolling whenever you'd like.


I'm available on AIM and MSN at bawhompATyahooDOTcom and our team gmail is teampiffleATgmailDOTcom.

Cheers,
(Still a) Major Idiot WhompDear Whomp,
My… your name does seem vaguely familiar somehow… but that can’t be… as we just met, and all. Perhaps a previous life? Of course, I don’t really believe in that sort of thing… ah well.

I’ll continue to send out bursts of letters/spam to multiple “Piffaliens” as our glorious peoples have need to talk. If anyone wants to be added to the ‘Official Epsilon Do Not Spam’ list – just let me know, and I’ll stop bothering them. (except for really great offers of windshield repair and ‘male enhancement.’)

It appears our current trading options are rather limited – but as you are interested in talking about any topic, please don’t hesitate to contact me.

At your service,
Foreign Minister General W
Epsilon Team

Conroe
Jul 30, 2006, 07:46 PM
Of course, regarding their phrase "we are pleased to learn that we are not alone in this world" - maybe that's what they want us to think :) Of course, they're probably being straight with us.Honestly, looking at that phrase in context of the whole message, I really think they let that piece of intel slip by unintentionally. We'll never know, of course. But, that is the way it seems to me. Maybe some of you folks that have played with MIA may be in a better position to judge ...

A few more exchanges. I will try to schedule a specific date. Who's interested in joining me? IIRC we can talk about anything, correct? Tech, land composition etc.I guess I would be hesitant to disclose too much information at this point. There is no tech trading, yet. I don't recall having any spare resources to trade. I'm kinda new to this MTDG stuff, but I'm really not sure what there is to discuss.

Although, this brings up an interesting question. Does the F4 screen show them as being connected to the trade network? Since we have researched Sailing, coastal trading has been enabled. If they are not connected, then they do not have a coastal city (or at least one connected to their capital).

Kickbooti
Jul 31, 2006, 09:09 AM
I guess I would be hesitant to disclose too much information at this point. There is no tech trading, yet. I don't recall having any spare resources to trade. I'm kinda new to this MTDG stuff, but I'm really not sure what there is to discuss.

Again, Whomp would be better at explaining this, but my impression from Civ III is that idle banter through chat builds trust. Its a psychological thing of course, but showing yourself pleasant and trustworthy in small, obvious matters builds some trust.

Besides, for many the Chat manipulations are part of the MTDG game, and so they appreciate an opponent that gives them something to play against.

Whomp
Jul 31, 2006, 10:04 AM
As Rik Meleet said to me once and I concur.
"These games are won out of game more than in game".

I think we've seen that in the Civ3 MTDG now that TNT has been eliminated.

We won't be giving anything away until we decide what type of relationship we want with these guys. They have a team that is skilled both in game (Davemcw/Kylearean) and out of game (General W/Fe3333au).

IMO they will be the team to beat in the end.

Oldbus
Jul 31, 2006, 12:26 PM
That's interesting. I'm not too bothered about being involved in any chats myself - I'm almost certain to blab something when I don't have a Preview button. However, I'm not sure how many Europeans we have on the team, so it might be helpful if we meet folks on this side of t'pond. Anyway, we can see how that develops.

Sweetacshon
Jul 31, 2006, 09:11 PM
Although, this brings up an interesting question. Does the F4 screen show them as being connected to the trade network? Since we have researched Sailing, coastal trading has been enabled. If they are not connected, then they do not have a coastal city (or at least one connected to their capital).

I was under the impression that the coastal trade was only open if there is a line of sight.. I mean by that the fog has been busted along the coast between ports... could be wrong, tho.

I think we should play the info trading fairly tightly, ie give nothing away for free, but the question is, what are we willing totell them right now, and what would we like to know about them? Perhaps swapping some info like the number of tiles (roughly) that the cities lie from where Bubba met Dark Puma?

There's probably no need to get into techs and what not yet, considering we have no way of trading them. Actually, maybe we should build a galley or 2 to explore quicker??

Kickbooti
Aug 01, 2006, 01:52 PM
I'm for not telling them anything right now. They don't know anything that we can't find out for ourselves or, truly, take advantage of yet.

I think we should build a city at the Isthmus to block their access and I wouldn't mind building a galley though I don't know where in the build que it should go...

grahamiam
Aug 03, 2006, 01:24 PM
couldn't we arrange for a tech deal aimed at alpha? or is that giving away too much (ie, one team goes for Writing + alpha (120+300=420), other goes for metal (450)? Metal team also gets 30g (or whatever it converts to at the game settings)?

Whomp
Aug 03, 2006, 01:27 PM
Dang, Gman. Stop making sense!
I think we should propose that.

pindicator
Aug 03, 2006, 11:25 PM
Would we want to trade away Alphabet so soon? Although, with Copper and so many sea tiles that we will be working, the Colossus may very well be worth the tech leverage of Alphabet.

Sweetacshon
Aug 04, 2006, 03:31 AM
I think you know my views on the Collosus! :)
This sounds like a good idea. It certainly provides a good foundation for the relationship also. We could also try to sqeeze a little more out of the deal by, say, trading writing with another trading partner (I'm sure we'll find one soon) for hunting/archery or a religous tech.... ok, that's speculative, but an idea

Kickbooti
Aug 04, 2006, 09:45 AM
I like Gram's idea. It starts us off on a reasonable, honorable foot. Do we want to go for Metal or the Writing/Alpha path? I guess I favor metal, I like forges, but I'm 51/49 on that opinion.

Conroe
Aug 05, 2006, 12:47 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't whoever goes for metal get a head start on the Colossus? Especially if they are the GNP leaders? :mischief:

Sweetacshon
Aug 05, 2006, 01:37 AM
Cha-ching. You've sold me.

Whomp
Aug 05, 2006, 04:58 PM
OK show me the way and off we go.
Sorry for the delay Gen.W.
I had another hat to put on recently.:p

OK...here's what we were thinking.
One team goes for Writing + alpha (120:science: +300:science: =420:science: ), and the other goes for metal (450:science:). The metal team also gets 30ish gold?

A peace agreement?

Let us know your thoughts.
Mellpiffluous Whomper
and his to me.

Whomp
Aug 14, 2006, 12:06 PM
OK we have what we want. We'll need to figure out how to get the cash from them or another tech deal where they owe us 30 beakers. What about a peace deal? Until we meet some others I think we should make friends with these guys.
Dear Mellpiffluous Whomper,

Don't worry about the delay in the least! I've been a bit… distracted… myself of late. :lol:

The terms you outline seem both straight-forward and fair.

The Leader wishes me to convey our desire to take the Writing/Alphabet path while you learn the secret of working metals. We will commence work on this path as soon as we complete our current research.
However, I am informed that without knowledge of something called "currency" we cannot figure out how to pay you the 30 gold gap in value. We therefore propose to pay you the gold as soon as we have the knowledge to do it – or else repay you sooner by arranging another technology trade where you come out ahead by a similar amount.

A peace agreement only makes sense for our two great and noble peoples. Shall we agree to a specific timeline for guaranteed peace? Or would you like the peace to extend indefinitely with just some kind of a "10 turn notice" clause for either team to exit the peace?

Your response is eagerly awaited in the Golden Halls.

Sincerely Yours,
Foreign Minister General W
Servant of The Leader
Epsilon Team

Oldbus
Aug 14, 2006, 01:47 PM
I'm not too worried about the cash at the moment. If they refuse to pay up, we're probably going to have bigger problems than 30 gold.

I agree we should go for peace. I don't have very strong feelings either way for the 2 proposed treaties. I would have thought the indefinite one was easier to keep track of. Although we should agree to their '10 turns notice' request, it is of course meaningless in a treaty like this. If either side decides to align with someone else and cancel the treaty, then the 10 turns wait makes no difference. If the situation is serious enough for one side to declare war, then they will ignore the 10 turns notice anyway.

Whomp
Aug 14, 2006, 01:55 PM
Knowing how righteous some of the player on Epsilon are about treaties I don't think they'd ever break a treaty.

I'm not a fan of the "10 turn clause" because it creates a lot of undue tension between teams if someone breaks off a peace agreement. I'd rather make a treaty for a specified timeframe and renegotiate from there.

Kickbooti
Aug 14, 2006, 04:57 PM
I think you're right about the tension, Whomp.

Were you thinking about going through a specific 'era' or just picking a turn number?

I lean toward the turn number, just tell them we hold the RNG in high esteem and it spit the number out or some such...

Whomp
Aug 14, 2006, 05:28 PM
I think that sounds perfect Booti. How about 32 turns? :lol:

Tubby Rower
Aug 16, 2006, 02:13 PM
I missed this thread since somehow...


I'm with Whomp about the no 10 turns crap. If you hadn't renegotiated peace by then, well you'll end up like KISS did in the civ3 version of this.

Kickbooti
Aug 17, 2006, 10:33 AM
I'm with Whomp about the no 10 turns crap. If you hadn't renegotiated peace by then, well you'll end up like KISS did in the civ3 version of this.

Already with the past tense?:shake: :cry:

Tubby Rower
Aug 17, 2006, 10:34 AM
:lol: I was refering to the backstabbing which could be argued that went back as far as the transition out of the Most Ancient of Ages.

Whomp
Aug 17, 2006, 04:42 PM
OK so send it?

Tubby Rower
Aug 18, 2006, 06:34 AM
OK so send it?If that's a question..... yes

If it's a request for someone else to do it.... not it!!

Whomp
Aug 18, 2006, 08:56 AM
Please send it Sir Smart Pants of the Rowers.

Tubby Rower
Aug 18, 2006, 09:37 AM
What exactly am I supposed to send.

How's this?

Dear Mr. The,

We are prepared to accept the following from your proposal:

The Leader will work his noggin over to figure out some way to covey thoughts with copious congregations of symbolic characters.
The Pilfinatress will build up massive fires to attempt to liquify some rock to gain useable shiny scolding liquid in order to fashion tools and weapons much stronger than the big stick that our oafs are currently carrying
The monetary advantage (30g or 30 beakers) that Mr. The will gain by persuing said technologies can be re-imbursed once we discover a common monetary system as our monetary system involves moments of silence which are very rare and much sought after. This should be done before Beaurocracy is discovered as the paper work could be counter-productive and cost-prohibitive.
No fighting is agreeable with us as we only like to scuffle in bed. But we are opposed to any 10 turn notice as this creates a lot of undue tension between teams if someone breaks off a peace agreemen. We would prefer to have the non-fighting, friendly state of our nations to continue until the years stop counting down and start to count up again.

Picking a peck of pickles,
Pilfinatress of the Piffle People

pindicator
Aug 18, 2006, 09:40 AM
I like the sig :thumbsup:

Whomp
Aug 18, 2006, 10:10 AM
Perfect Pifflerower. Send it on with 30g or 30 beakers being specified. The rest I think they'd understand.

Tubby Rower
Aug 18, 2006, 10:12 AM
edited my post and will send off to Mr. The

Tubby Rower
Aug 18, 2006, 10:16 AM
Here is what I sent
Sorry for the delay in this reply. We saw a frog hopping around the office and everyone coincidentally licked it at different times and the hallucinations weren't coinciding.

Dear Mr. The,

We are prepared to accept the following from your proposal:

The Leader will work his noggin over to figure out some way to covey thoughts with copious congregations of symbolic characters.
The Pilfinatress will build up massive fires to attempt to liquify some rock to gain useable shiny scolding liquid in order to fashion tools and weapons much stronger than the big stick that our oafs are currently carrying
The monetary advantage (30g or 30 beakers) that Mr. The will gain by persuing said technologies can be re-imbursed once we discover a common monetary system as our monetary system involves moments of silence which are very rare and much sought after. This should be done before Beaurocracy is discovered as the paper work could be counter-productive and cost-prohibitive.
No fighting is agreeable with us as we only like to scuffle in bed. But we are opposed to any 10 turn notice as this creates a lot of undue tension between teams if someone breaks off a peace agreemen. We would prefer to have the non-fighting, friendly state of our nations to continue until the years stop counting down and start to count up again.

Picking a peck of pickles,
Pilfinatress of the Piffle People

Tubby Rower
Aug 22, 2006, 12:11 PM
reply from Gen W

Dear Tubby Rower and All Piffledom,

We believe we are very near a deal here.
Points 1 and 2 look great, and we agree.

We propose that point 3 be reworded to:
"The monetary advantage (30g or 30b) that The Leader owes to The Pilfinatress will be rectified as soon as possible either by a) a lopsided tech deal 30b in favor of Piffle, or by b) 30g in payment made as soon as Currency is learned by either nation.
The Leader will not research Bureaucracy (or equal-or-higher level technology) unless the debt has already been discharged."

We'd also like to see point 4 reworded to:
"Peace will reign between our two peoples until 1 AD.
During this peace, no towns may be settled closer than the halfway point between the other's capital."

We believe these rewordings protect both of our teams from any possible unfair advantage.

Let us know!

All the Best,

FM General_W
Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team!

Tubby Rower
Aug 22, 2006, 12:11 PM
The only thing that I see as an issue is the settling thing. How will we determine the halfway point?

Conroe
Aug 22, 2006, 12:16 PM
They appear to have re-worded point 3 such that it says the same thing as our proposal. :crazyeye: Or am I missing something?


The additional provision in point 4 of "no towns closer than half-way" makes sense. However, it may be difficult to abide by the provision considering we don't know where their capital is located.


The only thing that I see as an issue is the settling thing. How will we determine the halfway point?Considering the amount of land this side of the isthmus, does it really matter that much? I would think we would be safe settling anthing south. We may want to consider getting a boat out to explore along the shorelines. We might get a better idea of where their capital is located from there.

Whomp
Aug 22, 2006, 12:30 PM
My concern is there's ivory on the middle of that isthmus. War elephants are undoubtedly very strong early units.

Kickbooti
Aug 22, 2006, 03:37 PM
Whomp's got a good point; plus I've already spotted a nice spot for a city on the landmass north of the Isthmus.

I would state that we appreciate the sentiment of point 4, but it is unworkable at this time becuase we don't know where there caitol is, nor what land they have discovered.

I wouldn't mention the Isthmus, becuase if they haven't explored it yet, I don't want to tell them. Let them think we have galley's for all I care.

grahamiam
Aug 23, 2006, 06:59 AM
I agree with Kickbooti. The worst that can happen is that they reveal thier capitol location :mischief:

Tubby Rower
Aug 23, 2006, 07:53 AM
I'll send the reply

EDIT:: sent
Gen and Mr. The,

Your re-wording of #3 seems to be saying the same things as what we originally had, but we'll go with your words. We appreciate the sentiment of point 4, but it is unworkable at this time becuase we don't know where your capitol is. How about just this for #4:
"Peace will reign between our two peoples until 1 AD.


Waiting by the phone like a teenage girl for her new boyfriend to call,
Piffle
Dear Tubby Rower and All Piffledom,

We believe we are very near a deal here.
Points 1 and 2 look great, and we agree.

We propose that point 3 be reworded to:
"The monetary advantage (30g or 30b) that The Leader owes to The Pilfinatress will be rectified as soon as possible either by a) a lopsided tech deal 30b in favor of Piffle, or by b) 30g in payment made as soon as Currency is learned by either nation.
The Leader will not research Bureaucracy (or equal-or-higher level technology) unless the debt has already been discharged."

We'd also like to see point 4 reworded to:
"Peace will reign between our two peoples until 1 AD.
During this peace, no towns may be settled closer than the halfway point between the other's capital."

We believe these rewordings protect both of our teams from any possible unfair advantage.

Let us know!

All the Best,

FM General_W
Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team![/


Sorry for the delay in this reply. We saw a frog hopping around the office and everyone coincidentally licked it at different times and the hallucinations weren't coinciding.

Dear Mr. The,

We are prepared to accept the following from your proposal:

The Leader will work his noggin over to figure out some way to covey thoughts with copious congregations of symbolic characters.
The Pilfinatress will build up massive fires to attempt to liquify some rock to gain useable shiny scolding liquid in order to fashion tools and weapons much stronger than the big stick that our oafs are currently carrying
The monetary advantage (30g or 30 beakers) that Mr. The will gain by persuing said technologies can be re-imbursed once we discover a common monetary system as our monetary system involves moments of silence which are very rare and much sought after. This should be done before Beaurocracy is discovered as the paper work could be counter-productive and cost-prohibitive.
No fighting is agreeable with us as we only like to scuffle in bed. But we are opposed to any 10 turn notice as this creates a lot of undue tension between teams if someone breaks off a peace agreemen. We would prefer to have the non-fighting, friendly state of our nations to continue until the years stop counting down and start to count up again.

Picking a peck of pickles,
Pilfinatress of the Piffle People

Tubby Rower
Aug 25, 2006, 07:44 PM
and the replyDear Tubby and all the teenage girls at Piffle, :confused:

You're quite correct about point #4 being technically unworkable… but what we were after was the sentiment of the deal anyway – which we're pleased to hear you agree with. So how about that point says something more like "Peace will reign between our two peoples until 1 AD – during which time, neither nation will settle beyond the halfway point on the spit of land connecting our islands."

That's obviously still a little vague – but we'd like to see our agreed sentiment at least somewhat codified in our treaty.
We trust that both our peoples will be reasonable in upholding the good faith of that agreement.

What do you say?
Do we have a deal?
Should there be formal documents?

Until then,

Foreign Minister General W
Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team!

pindicator
Aug 26, 2006, 02:02 AM
Sounds like they 1) know about the isthmus and 2) are on the other end of it somewhere -- perhaps this is a hub-style map?

Oldbus
Aug 26, 2006, 01:54 PM
What I understand by 'hub style' map is a central hub which is initially empty and all teams are connected to it via land bridges.

What I understand their message to be saying is either:

the land at the other end of the isthmus is their island, or
they want to keep up off the hub so they can settle it.


1) would be surprising to me, but I'm sure Sirian is capable of surprising me. If we are on a map where we all have our own islands with links between them, diplomacy is going to be crucial.

If 2) is correct, then they are clearly trying to gain an advantage.

I don't think we can accept this demand, but we need to be very careful how we turn it down.

Tubby Rower
Aug 26, 2006, 02:13 PM
That's why I didn't immediately respond. Hopefully some of our more tactful diplomats could give me some words that I can confound them with.

Whomp
Aug 26, 2006, 02:16 PM
I agree with you Oldbus. I think the way around this is to explain until paper is researched and maps are able to be traded that any land division doesn't seem possible. There's too much exploration both (with emphasis) teams must acheive. If we have a border conflict then we'll cross that bridge when it's time.

Ulimately, we can't underestimate who we're dealing with on the diplo and ingame front.
They are undoubtedly the largest threat in this game. With Davemcw they have a great ingame player that has not lost 1 city against 8 people in our pitboss game. Granted, he's isolated, we've eliminated his trading partner, he's getting buried techwise but with some players looking to make peace with him due to logistics the alliance against him has started to unravel a bit.

We will need to make other friends that will buy into their threat.

Tubby Rower
Aug 26, 2006, 02:36 PM
With Davemcw they have a great ingame player that has not lost 1 city against 8 people in our pitboss game. Granted, he's isolated, we've eliminated his trading partner, he's getting buried techwise but with some players looking to make peace with him due to logistics the alliance against him has started to unravel a bit.He has lost at least 1 city if not 2 ;)... but point made. He IS a kick-a** player

Tubby Rower
Aug 26, 2006, 02:37 PM
So could someone put together at least an outline of what I should reply with. If not I'll jsut use Whomp's opening couple of sentances as a guideline as some more piffle.

Bede
Aug 27, 2006, 12:31 PM
I agree with you Oldbus. I think the way around this is to explain until paper is researched and maps are able to be traded that any land division doesn't seem possible. There's too much exploration both (with emphasis) teams must acheive. If we have a border conflict then we'll cross that bridge when it's time.


I like that notion. War elephants are okay but we have lots of stuff to play with on our end of the isthmus.

We just need to block them from settling south of the gateway hills anyway.

Tubby Rower
Aug 28, 2006, 06:00 AM
Here is my latest PM sent this morning. Why do we always get put beside the lawyers in the crowd :gripe:
General,

Until paper is researched and maps are able to be traded, any land division doesn't seem possible. There's too much exploration both (with emphasis) teams must acheive. If we have a border conflict then we'll cross that bridge when it's time. We fully understand your concern about borders. Border definitions at this early point in the game are just unfeasible and will likely be unknowingly lopsided towards one team. While we would hate to be on the short end of that endeavor, we likewise don't want to short-change you as an angry neighbor is never good.

So here is our latest proposal for Peace (and we take your PM-word on it and don't need official-looking documents).

1. The Leader will work his noggin over to figure out some way to covey thoughts with copious congregations of symbolic characters.
2. The Pilfinatress will build up massive fires to attempt to liquify some rock to gain useable shiny scolding liquid in order to fashion tools and weapons much stronger than the big stick that our oafs are currently carrying
3. The monetary advantage (30g or 30b) that The Leader owes to The Pilfinatress will be rectified as soon as possible either by a) a lopsided tech deal 30b in favor of Piffle, or by b) 30g in payment made as soon as Currency is learned by either nation.
The Leader will not research Bureaucracy (or equal-or-higher level technology) unless the debt has already been discharged.
4. Peace will reign between the Leader and the Piffilnatress until 1 AD. Upon discovering Paper, borders will be negotiated.



Let us know what you think and we'll be eating Oreos and watching The Breakfast Club


Dreaming of a Peaceful Piffledom,
The Piffilnatress

Tubby Rower
Aug 29, 2006, 05:33 AM
Just got your note -(been having internet trouble) looks fair to me... will take to the team for official approval.

This is NOT an official letter.
:salute:

- General_W

Now I guess they have to vote.

Tubby Rower
Aug 30, 2006, 02:31 PM
WE have our first deal!!!

Dear Tubby, and all Dreamers and Oreo Eaters,

Let me be the first to embrace you as our brothers in peace! The Leader and the Epsilon Council of Seven have approved of the peace treaty and trading measures outlined in your last letter to us.

A holiday has been declared in your honor - the people rejoice.

We look forward to many years of peace and cooperation. May today be only the seed of the future greatness that is to grow for both our peoples.

We always welcome further communication from our friends – I am at your service for anything further you would like to discuss.

Sincerely Yours,

Foreign Minister General W
Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team!

Whomp
Aug 30, 2006, 03:31 PM
Good. I'm glad that's done. Let's go make some new friends!

pindicator
Aug 31, 2006, 12:32 AM
Good. I'm glad that's done. Let's go make some new friends!

But can we still crush them utterly should it be opportune and worthwhile? :satan:

Kickbooti
Aug 31, 2006, 05:24 AM
But can we still crush them utterly should it be opportune and worthwhile? :satan:

Absolutely. When I was growing up my teacher told me "A stranger is just a friend you haven't met."

Now that I am involved in MTDG I understand that friends are just enemeis whoes heads you are not actively crushing.

Tubby Rower
Aug 31, 2006, 06:03 AM
Now that I am involved in MTDG I understand that friends are just enemeis whoes heads you are not actively crushing.:lol: You scare me more and more every day.

Kickbooti
Sep 02, 2006, 12:06 PM
:lol: You scare me more and more every day.

Hey 'friend,' don't make me crush YOUR head... ;)

Kickbooti
Sep 28, 2006, 09:39 AM
Code of Laws already?!? Surely they have popped some goody huts or something. Either that or that can't mine, road, build obelisks, anything.

Whomp
Sep 28, 2006, 07:09 PM
I just realized. We've been played again by those MIA b....nvm
By getting CoL they took CS as their free tech and we'll be giving the metal casting which equals Maces...:(

Bede
Sep 28, 2006, 08:55 PM
Not to worry, Maces come with Machinery and CS, not Metal Casting. And if they put all their energies into the CS slingshot, and it seems likely looking at their capitol's population, it is going to take them a long time to recover. We will twist their tails for them in good time, but let's push up the isthmus.

pindicator
Sep 28, 2006, 09:01 PM
We'll be able to get Xbows just as quickly as they could get Maces with that deal anyway: both of us will need Machinery for it.

Whomp
Sep 28, 2006, 09:01 PM
I spoke with Davemcw online during our pitboss game and he said they haven't decided on their free tech yet. I made to presumption they would take CS. We'll see.

Tubby Rower
Oct 16, 2006, 05:23 AM
new message from the sneaky b**st***s. Dear Tubby and All Piffles,

Please forgive our silence of late, the last few years have been busy for my people, as you can imagine.

We regret we weren’t able to be more open with you about our plans for the Oracle – but we're confident you understand and are sympathetic towards our desire for secrecy.

That said, we are still looking forward to fulfilling our end of the treaty we have signed with you, and wanted to let you know that we're about 6 turns away from having the secret of letters… project code name: "ABC"

We're curious to know how you're coming on melting rocks into better killing weapons?

Yours in Peace and Trade,
General_W, Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team

Tubby Rower
Oct 16, 2006, 10:20 AM
more from the pompous
Dear Mr. Rower,

I'm a bit embarrassed to tell you that we're actually 4 turns away from Alphabet.
I forgot to update that part over the course of drafting the letter.

Thanks for your patience.
- General_W

Butterball
Oct 16, 2006, 03:00 PM
more from the pompous ...

Aren't these the same guys that man the MIA team in the Civ III game???
BB

Tubby Rower
Oct 17, 2006, 06:05 AM
yup yup yup.. I personally would like to cut all contact with them. Go meet someone less arogant and devious

Butterball
Oct 17, 2006, 02:13 PM
yup yup yup.. I personally would like to cut all contact with them. Go meet someone less arogant and devious

Just make sure we count our money & watch our backs.
BB :aargh:

Tubby Rower
Oct 18, 2006, 12:26 PM
sent to gmail

I'm planning on not responding... as in my opinion this will be our last non-bloody dealing with MIA .. I mean the Leader. they can figure out when we get it when the trade comes about. I'd rather give them little to no information.

(I sent this letter via PM to Tubby - but wanted to make sure you got it. So here it is again!)

Dear Tubby and All Piffles,

Please forgive our silence of late, the last few years have been busy for my people, as you can imagine.

We regret we weren't able to be more open with you about our plans for the Oracle – but we're confident you understand and are sympathetic towards our desire for secrecy.

That said, we are still looking forward to fulfilling our end of the treaty we have signed with you, and wanted to let you know that we're about [3 turns] away from having the secret of letters… project code
name: "ABC"

We're curious to know how you're coming on melting rocks into better killing weapons?

Yours in Peace and Trade,
General_W, Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team

pindicator
Oct 18, 2006, 10:23 PM
I agree that we shouldn't let them know anything, but at the same time we should respond to stay on good relations. If we do not answer, they may have reason to think we've soured on them -- I'd rather have them think we were oblivious and naive.

I would say we want to reply with something friendly, in theme with previous correspondences (witty/silly), and above all divulging nothing. Think White House press secretary, but actually done with some skill.

Whomp
Oct 18, 2006, 10:27 PM
I agree with pindicator. I think we should respond with something regarding our capabilities. We're hoping to learn how to become more bureaucratic to speed up our research but we haven't figured it out yet.

Tubby Rower
Oct 19, 2006, 05:45 AM
ok... would someone like to be my press secretary and write this for me as I have no skilz in sweet-talking someone that I don't like

Whomp
Oct 19, 2006, 08:54 AM
How does this sound?
Hello Leader,
We're happy to hear that you're so close to learning project code ABC. We've noticed that the Oracle has provided your captial with some magnificent means of generating more gold and hammers. We heard it's called Burea...something.
Project metal metaling is coming along and we hope to provide it soon. We've had some problems as you know with the loss of one of our feared warriors and the infidel barbarians continue to be an annoyance. We're eradicating the problem as fast as we can.

Will you be sending project ABC when you're finished?

Sincerely,
Pifflenatress

pindicator
Oct 19, 2006, 10:57 PM
Figure I'd take a stab at it:


Dear Leader,
We hear rumors of letters and words being developed of a far-away land and are perplexed at the thought. Are not <Bird> <Cat Drinking Water> <Empire State Building> <Hot Babe Driving Convertable> clear enough in their intentions? Does not your Confucious say "Men's natures are alike, it is their habits that carry them far apart"? As both of our natures are true to fulfill the means of our bargain, we are working towards that end, but I think our people are not quite as adept as shuffling papers as yours. Perhaps you could send a few of your rumored "scientists" to help us complete the endeavor. We hear their knowledge is illuminating.

Habitually Yours,
Pifflenatress



And continually being revised, true to the editor in me... Oh, and the phrases surrounded by < > would be better as pictures, any random picture really.

Tubby Rower
Oct 20, 2006, 07:18 AM
I've already sent Whomp's... sorry pindicator

pindicator
Oct 20, 2006, 08:03 AM
No prob -- thought I would do some actual work instead of just giving out instructions :lol:

Tubby Rower
Oct 20, 2006, 09:02 PM
here's your chance pindicator!! come up witha witty response.Dear Tubby and all Piffle People,

Yes – at first we were quite puzzled when the Oracle starting spouting all kinds of senseless legal jargon and endless regulations for performing common sense tasks… but it seems to have boosted production in Epsilon Eridani, so we decided to let it continue (although some of us suspect that these productivity gains are just an accounting trick).

If you can let us know when you expect to finish Metal Casting, we'll send you writing on faith, and then we can trade alphabet straight across for Metal Casting – with you reciprocating the good faith that we'll make the 30:science: good either in gold or another trade as soon as possible.

How does that sound?

Sincerely,
General_W, Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team!

pindicator
Oct 20, 2006, 09:10 PM
Well, would getting writing right away be worthwhile? Sure, having it is better than not having it, but having it 10 turns earlier won't do us any good if we don't start a library/open borders, etc until after we have Metal Casting anyway.

Do we want to give them a definite number? Or still play it coy? I don't mind doing that, but I'm against doing anything to make them sospechoso. I could probably recycle a bit of what I wrote before.

pindicator
Oct 20, 2006, 09:27 PM
Here is a response just to get something out there. The second paragraph can be interpretted to agreeing to their proposal of sending us writing (I tried to hint at scientists without actually saying as much) so if you don't want it to say that then don't be scared to send it back for revisions. I am a bit of a writer, so I never think anything is "finished." :lol:


Dear General_W,

Perhaps you could send some of your number fudgers over to help our accountants out? Ours, unfortunately, are snobbish and effete about their profession: they squabble about balanced budgets, over-spending in government, transparency, privacy protection, FDIC insurance, IRAs, 401ks, and other acronyms that frankly annoy those of us that just want to see it done. We are quite eager to fulfill our end of the deal, and I tell our accountants to "Get 'er done!" daily but my southern drawl is not what it used to be.

I hear your people are far more refined in matters of this science. I could see an exchange program being beneficial: your learned citizens coming to our country in order to illuminate our technological endeavors while our squabbling number-crunchers would find solace in the bureaus and wardrobes of Epsilon.

Counting the Days,
Pifflenatress


Also, I'd wait a day or two before sending the response. Just long enough to drag our feet without looking like we're dragging our feet.

Sweetacshon
Oct 21, 2006, 03:26 AM
Well, would getting writing right away be worthwhile? Sure, having it is better than not having it, but having it 10 turns earlier won't do us any good if we don't start a library/open borders, etc until after we have Metal Casting anyway.

Exactly.. OB is not really an issue, and I'm not sure we are ready to start a library.. but then again, if they are willing to just hand it over....

Then again, they do want a direct answer on the amount of time left on metal... not giving them that would cause angst, imo, unless we just want to lie, take their free tech, and then reneg on the deal, sending an army their way instead ;)

Tubby Rower
Oct 21, 2006, 06:17 AM
in the initial treaty there was no indication in there that we had to tell them how many turns until the techs are complete. As far as angst goes.. the more the better in my opinion.

pindicator
Oct 21, 2006, 11:28 AM
I disagree on angst. Let them focus their angst elsewhere and be pleasantly surprised when they find ours on their doorstep.

Whomp
Oct 21, 2006, 11:34 AM
I agree Pind. I think we can tell them if they look at our GNP compared to theirs that we're trying to get there as fast as possible. If we meet another civ with that potential land bridge it will help our cause immensely.

Kickbooti
Oct 22, 2006, 05:44 AM
Think White House press secretary, but actually done with some skill.

Aww, C'mon. Tony is the most engaging press sec in a long time. I mean who is more enjoyable to watch, Tony Snow or Joe Lockhart? Please.

Tubby Rower
Oct 28, 2006, 07:27 PM
another message from the pompous onesDear Tubby and all the glorious Piffles,

This letter is to follow up on my last letter (Sent to Tubby on 10/19) and to explore some further options.

We're pleased to let you know that we now understand the secret of Alphabet, and we are therefore eagerly looking forward to our agreed trade for Metal Casting. Please let us know when you plan to get Metal Casting. As soon as we have word from you, we'll be happy to transfer the knowledge of Writing in good faith, and then we can swap Metal for Alpha straight across.

As per our agreement, this still leaves us owing you 30 beakers. We are, of course, happy to pay this sum as soon as it's possible – but we also have another idea we think you may like. What if we taught you the secret of thinking deep religious thoughts and then about how to get people to support those that think the deep religious thoughts? (Meditation 80 and Priesthood 60 ). In exchange, you could teach us to build walls and catch yummy things in the water. (Masonry 80 and Fishing 40 ) That still leaves us with a slight advantage – but we hope you may be interested as this brings our trade deficit much closer to even much sooner.

Looking forward to hearing what you think!
Hope all is well in Piffledom.

Sincerely,
General_W, Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team!

Whomp
Oct 28, 2006, 08:13 PM
Not a chance unless they agree that we get to go CoL and we don't want their stinkin' religion. We don't need them peering into our cities.

Bede
Oct 28, 2006, 11:04 PM
Let's get some more oars in the water (more firends) before we start trading useful stuff like walls and fishing nets to these guys. If they want something useful for their people to do let them figure it out for themselves, rather than us teaching it to them.

pindicator
Oct 29, 2006, 09:26 PM
I'd really not give them any technologies that let them develop their lands. They took the trade-off of not getting those by hitting their CS slingshot, so let's not mitigate the consequences of that for them in any way. (Giving them forges will be bad enough.)

Did we send the letter I wrote before? Do we need to edit it before sending anything? I think we should send something if they've given us two letters in a row now.

Whomp
Oct 29, 2006, 10:22 PM
I can't find their email so maybe we should send a message to General W. We may want to add that we are not currently interested in their religious techs but we are considering acquiring them at some point.

Sweetacshon
Oct 30, 2006, 12:47 AM
Nice reply idea, Whomp. We certainly don't want to give them any more of a leg up than they already have.

Tubby Rower
Oct 30, 2006, 05:38 AM
crap.. I need to check in over the weekends :blush:

do you guys want me to continue the conversation with them over PM's or request everything go through gmail?

Sweetacshon
Oct 30, 2006, 06:35 AM
Up to you; going thru gmail means there is a copy for everyone to see, although you will post it anyway, so... your call.

Whomp
Oct 30, 2006, 10:24 AM
I would send it officially. The intent of saying we may want to acquire those techs in the future is to make them think we've met someone.

Tubby Rower
Oct 30, 2006, 10:29 AM
umm... How's this?

Dear you people,

Metal Casting will be to you soon. Spiritual techs like Meditation and Priesthood are being sought through other channels currently. So we will have to respectfully decline your offer for trade. We hope to continue trade discussions with you in the meantime.

Surprisingly short of words,
Us

Whomp
Oct 30, 2006, 11:50 AM
I wouldn't say "other channels" but we are "exploring our options regarding the spiritual techs". Much more vague. Seeds of doubt my friend, seeds of doubt. Ultimately, we may tell them they gave us the best deal. ;)

One thing I think we've learned from the other MTDG is every word is dissemenated so the more disinformation that can be read into words the better.

Tubby Rower
Oct 30, 2006, 11:52 AM
sorry.. it's already been sent. I don't think that I can retract it. pity really considering all of the stupid stuff I say.

I did capitalize You People and added "People" to Us at teh bottom

Conroe
Oct 30, 2006, 03:42 PM
Is it stupid question time, yet? Is our deal to trade MC for Alpha/Writing still in place? The reason that I am asking is that the original deal (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=179592&page=4) stated that they would not research Civil Service, yet. Did they not take CS with the Oracle? I'm just curious as to where we stand with our first deal, especially since we just declined Writing from them. EDIT: Oh wait, maybe I missread that trade screen -- does Writing come next turn?

Why do we always get put beside the lawyers in the crowd :gripe:Sorry if I'm being too much of a lawyer on you. I've been gone from CFC for a bit and I'm trying to catch up on all of the threads for this game.

Kickbooti
Oct 30, 2006, 04:38 PM
Tubby mispoke: if the blood sucking lawyer is on OUR side, its okay.

Whomp
Oct 30, 2006, 05:42 PM
Careful we have another famous attorney on our team (I'll let him introduce himself). :p

Conroe we are trading MC for writing (plus 30 beakers). They want to give spiritual techs for economy techs is what we are not agreeing to.

Kickbooti
Oct 30, 2006, 10:20 PM
Actually, I think our esteemed member of the bar (not to be confused with the old KISS definition of that phrase) is on to something.

The treaty is as follows...

1. The Leader will work his noggin over to figure out some way to covey thoughts with copious congregations of symbolic characters.
2. The Pilfinatress will build up massive fires to attempt to liquify some rock to gain useable shiny scolding liquid in order to fashion tools and weapons much stronger than the big stick that our oafs are currently carrying
3. The monetary advantage (30g or 30b) that The Leader owes to The Pilfinatress will be rectified as soon as possible either by a) a lopsided tech deal 30b in favor of Piffle, or by b) 30g in payment made as soon as Currency is learned by either nation.
The Leader will not research Bureaucracy (or equal-or-higher level technology) unless the debt has already been discharged.
4. Peace will reign between the Leader and the Piffilnatress until 1 AD. Upon discovering Paper, borders will be negotiated.

I have highlighted the pertinent portion. Civil Service is the tech that enables Bureacracy. If they have indeed chosen CS before 'the debt has...been discharged' then they are in breach.

The question that follows is then a) was this a simple oversight on their part or a slick move designed to snooker us? b) what do we do about it?

We could call them on it in a friendly fashion - pointing out the obvious error of their ways and wheedling a concesion or two. We could bluster and blow, swearing eternal emnity (since we can't hurt them now). We can bide our time and console ourselves with the warm glow that comes with bitter grudges long nursed.

Niagra Falls! Slowly I turned...

pindicator
Oct 31, 2006, 01:58 AM
I think we should call them on it. Try to get a concession out of it, like Meditation or some other cheap tech that is better in cost. (Meditation would be good if we have an aim towards Philosophy. And Alphabet certainly leads us towards Philo as well.)

Tubby Rower
Oct 31, 2006, 05:19 AM
Conroe, I was referring to the MIA/The Leader team. 2nd game in a row we've been next to them and they know how to weasle around the words of a contract. It's just frustrating.

Would anyone mind drafting a stern letter in reference to the Leader not following the deal and I'll send it post-haste

Sweetacshon
Oct 31, 2006, 07:34 AM
Firstly, did we take writing?? I hope so... if it was offered, we should have it. It woud be nice to at least get that out of the way before anything else happens.

We should certainly be aloofly affronted by their dishonesty (might have to be Tubbified):
As stated, you have recently begun using the new and interesting bureacratic model of government. I'm sure you are aware that this is in clear breach of our treaty arrangements *cite treaty*. We feel it only fair that you provide *something* as restitution, and as a sign of good faith and trust for a peaceful and prosperous future of our two empires.... blah blah...

If they just got CS because it is expensive and wanted burea, they should have no problems with this, but if they do, it will give us a good indication that they will be unfriendly after 1 AD.... thats if they aren't going to break that part as well....

Tubby Rower
Oct 31, 2006, 07:38 AM
hmm.. that "blah blah.. " is where I'll screw up the words. It is known by them (or at least should be) that I do NOT trust anyone on that team. I also think that I should continue being the diplo person since in the other game I left when things got complicated. So this might lull them into false superiority-complexion.

killercane
Oct 31, 2006, 09:19 AM
Looking at the fine language though, they didnt "research" Bureaucracy, they took it with the Oracle ;). If we feel they violated the treaty and it is void, we could not even point it out to them, get 6 axes and 3 ships chopped out asap, and bring in a mother of a surprise.

Tubby Rower
Oct 31, 2006, 09:28 AM
Looking at the fine language though, they didnt "research" Bureaucracy, they took it with the Oracle ;). If we feel they violated the treaty and it is void, we could not even point it out to them, get 6 axes and 3 ships chopped out asap, and bring in a mother of a surprise.
that's exactly what I was thinking. "research" implies taking beakers per turn and turning them into a tech. that's exactly why I wish to not deal politely with the leader (no capitals anymore :p ) It's obvious to me that they are trying to manipulate our feeble minds into doing their bidding while they use lawyer-speak (sorry Conroe) to do whatever the heck they please. :gripe:

Sweetacshon
Oct 31, 2006, 09:57 AM
Point taken. IF we were to get an amphibious army together tho, they would be alerted from the power graph, and we still don't know where their capital is.

Conroe
Oct 31, 2006, 10:03 AM
Looking at the fine language though, they didnt "research" Bureaucracy, they took it with the Oracle ;)Well, I'm really not a lawyer, but this seems a bit of a nit-picky point. To attempt to draw a distinction between "research" and "divine" of a tech doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't know, maybe the whole thing is just nit-picky.

The question that follows is then a) was this a simple oversight on their part or a slick move designed to snooker us? b) what do we do about it?I think we must decide whether we still want to trade MC for Writing/Alpha. If this trade is still advantageous for us, then I think we need to put this aside and do the trade. I probably wouldn't mention it until after the trade is consummated. At that point, we could then get pushy and demand immediate payment of the debt since they have CS.

Kickbooti
Oct 31, 2006, 01:41 PM
Here is my .02

AFTER we get writing BEFORE we send Metal Casting we pass a note that says something like...

"We can't help but notice you have acheived CS/Beuracracy while in our treaty period. This seems a clear violation of our agreement *cite treaty*

We would appreciate an explination/proposal of restitution from the Dear Leader. We're sure the Oracle can help.

Let us know."

Of course this launches us into a hostile tragectory. But I'm assuming that will happen anyway.

Either that or we simply ignore it (publically).

This may be the preferred course, unless we are committed to all out war starting at AD 1. I don't think that will necessarily help our long-term prospects (think TNT/Dnuts).

If we keep this infraction to ourselves, it may help rally other teams as allies against the Dear Leader.

I can't believe I'm counseling caution...:crazyeye:

Tubby Rower
Oct 31, 2006, 01:45 PM
I like the initial thingie you proposed young friar. That way we get writing and then don't give MC to them. By then we'll have met someone with Alpha and trade with them screwing the leader.

Whomp
Oct 31, 2006, 01:51 PM
I think we can explain our silence towards them and why we are not interested in dealing with them on other techs is the spirit of our treaty seems broken.

Let them stew on that.

Conroe
Oct 31, 2006, 01:53 PM
That way we get writing and then don't give MC to them. By then we'll have met someone with Alpha and trade with them screwing the leader.I'm not too keen on the idea of taking Writing from them without giving something in exchange. I realize that I don't know these folks the way the rest of you do, but it really doesn't feel right to me.

Butterball
Oct 31, 2006, 02:06 PM
I'm not too keen on the idea of taking Writing from them without giving something in exchange. I realize that I don't know these folks the way the rest of you do, but it really doesn't feel right to me.
Agree :agree: ... shoulden't we honor our commitments? Even tho the leader (old MIA) are slimy scum sucking dogs. :shifty: :mischief: Well ... maybe that's too harsh. :rolleyes:
BB

Whomp
Oct 31, 2006, 02:49 PM
We should honor our commitment but I think we should let them know (now) we are deeply disturbed they would break the spirit of our agreement so early (bureaucracy) and is why we've left diplomatic discussion vague and quiet. What they've done seems sneaky, underhanded and has not been very well received by the Piffle masses.

Maybe they can explain further to soothe our people. :D

Tubby Rower
Nov 01, 2006, 05:49 AM
latest from the leader ... I need a letter drafted of sufficent balance of platitude and anger

Dear Us People… I mean You people… er… Piffle,

We're glad to hear our deal is still on. You will find we have sent writing to you.
Looking forward to completing the trade.

All the best,
General_W, Servant of the Leader,
Epsilon Team

Dear You People,

Metal Casting will be to you soon. Spiritual techs like Meditation and Priesthood are being sought through other channels currently. So we will have to respectfully decline your offer for trade. We hope to continue trade discussions with you in the meantime.

Surprisingly short of words,
Us People

also sent to your gmail account.

pindicator
Nov 14, 2006, 12:45 AM
I replied where do we go from here? Should we ask if it was a mistake for them to be in bureaucracy?

I think we should point it out to them. They broke our deal, we let it slide, but we should let them know we let it slide out of choice and not negligence.

Or is it better for them to think they can pull the wool over our eyes?

Whomp
Nov 14, 2006, 12:49 AM
No I think we should make them feel bad about "what are confident was a mistake on their behalf".

Tubby Rower
Nov 14, 2006, 05:57 AM
received... I've seen this before. I think that it's a "feature" of the diplo screen.Dear Tubby and Piffles,
Thanks for the prompt action on the trade – you have our gratitude.

We noticed it looks like you may have tried to type a message in the diplomacy window? If so, it didn't come through – all we see is your name displayed.

If, in fact, you were trying to send us a message, it's probably best to stick with PM or e-mail to make sure we get it.

Thanks again,
Your friend at Epsilon,
General_W, Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team

Whomp
Nov 19, 2006, 07:05 PM
PM sent and a positive response in return.

Hello Gen. W servant of the Leader,

We'd like to offer Fishing, hunting and masonry for IW. We realize this leaves us a few beakers short but we'd also consider this a small concession considering you're in bureaucracy.

We would also be interested in other alliance opportunities if you are interested.

Yours in Piffletude,
Whomper


Dear Whomp & Piffles,

Your proposed offer sounds both fair and reasonable. We accept without
further condition. If you will send the techs along with the next
save, we will reciprocate with Iron Working.

The Leader is pleased to be trading further with our Lighthouse
Friends, and we are open to hear any proposals of various alliance
type agreements you'd like to suggest.
Until something more formal can be worked out, we're still operating
under our previously agreed peace treaty till 1AD – so you have
nothing to fear from us in that manner.

Looking forward to hearing back from you.

To continued peace and prosperity.
General_W, Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team!

Conroe
Nov 19, 2006, 07:20 PM
Your proposed offer sounds both fair and reasonable. We accept without
further condition.Anybody else get the feeling this was too easy? :undecide:

If they are not planning to attack, then they probably picked up IW for the ability to clear the jungle. I'd be willing to bet that their 3rd city is at the rice spot at the top of the isthmus. They would definitely need to clear some jungle to make that city workable. Plus picking up Fishing makes those coastal tiles (they are Financial) workable in the interim.

Whomp
Nov 19, 2006, 08:09 PM
I was thinking the same thing but I'm leery of anything Davemcw and Memphus do. They're mighty crafty players. I still think we should do the deal since it moves us that much closer to crossbows.

grahamiam
Nov 19, 2006, 08:18 PM
well, the only thing leaving me wary is their reference to peace till 1AD. It's either that they want to attack us right after that time, or they want us to relax so they can feel free to go after wonders. imho, probably the latter.

pindicator
Nov 19, 2006, 09:14 PM
Beakerwise, we win out in this deal, so that is troubling they would jump to this deal so quickly. This seems to affirm the troubling thought I had at first: they have skipped all these worker/econ techs and are sorely missing them as they propel themselves farther down the technology line. They are probably willing to take a concession in beakers to 1) keep our relationships good / patch up the bureau mishap, 2) pick up some needed worker/econ techs without having to change their tech plan.

grahamiam makes a good comment: I believe they are wonder-building. Specifically, I believe they are heading for the Great Library, if they are not there already. Consider their tech path: Priesthood -> Writing -> CoL -> Civil Service (via oracle) -> Alphabet. Consider the second trade they asked from us: Fishing & Masonry -- why Masonry unless they have marble?

Another possiblity is they want Masonry to go for Construction, but they would have to research Math first.

edit: a third possibility is Monotheism for OR and more religious tree action. Monarchy doesn't seem likely since they have an early happiness solution in religion, and the other techs in that branch of the tree just don't seem as strong an option.

Speaking of Wonders, now that we've traded away Metal Casting does this mean we are giving up on Colossus? I can't believe I haven't thought to ask this earlier.

Sweetacshon
Nov 20, 2006, 12:35 AM
Hmm... you take a holiday and it all happens :confused:

It seems likely that they are on the wonder path, and also that they have settled the ivory.. it's a great spot after all.. at the very least they have that scout on the bridge to warn them in case WE wanted to settle the ivory. It seems they are more intent on the clauses of the treaty than we are.

How long ago did we trade MC? Can we still go for the Collosus? We all know its strength on a map like this. I think a big part of our problems are that we don't know anyone.. we need more scouts, galleys, and a canal city, or at least one on the eastern sea... we wouldn't be so paranoid about the leader if we could talk to others. BTW have we asked them if they've met anyone reently?

Whomp
Nov 20, 2006, 10:19 AM
We have not asked them if they know anyone else but I'm sure they would be elusive in that regard. My guess is they have not or they would've traded for those techs. I doubt many teams are as deep in techs as "The Leader" and us. MC was traded three turns ago.

I think we'll get a new contact reasonably soon with our western exploration.

Colossus. When and where? Hamburger is set up pretty nice and so is the capital but chops are an issue. Which city would we sacrifice for this build? We still need lots of workers, settlers and other builds so we should priortize our needs.

On the isthmus settlement. The galley is headed that way but what cost are we willing to pay for maintainence, logistics etc for the rice/elephant settlement?

Sweetacshon
Nov 20, 2006, 10:43 AM
Well, these are 2 risks we are looking at... a wonder is always a risk, but at least you get a wad of cash if it doesn't come off, but if we did grab the Collosus, it would be huge.. enough for us to win?? Well, I don't know, it might be worth a shot, but it's a close call. For whatever it's worth, my vote is go for it, we have 3 other cities (soon). As for where.. wherever it would be done quickest.

As for the ivory, well it's a great spot but would be a real drag on the economy.. I just don't see it as viable right now, and the Leader might see it as antagonistic.. on the other hand, denying it to them (although we could just get some units together to steal it off them later) would be great, and is it really that much further from the capital than, say, the horse site? Again, my vote is not right now, but a scout up there to keep an eye on them would be great.

Whomp
Nov 20, 2006, 10:49 AM
I agree with the colossus sentinment. If someone would look at the save and give me an assessment of which city makes the most sense I'd appreciate it.

The Leader is open to expanding our relationship. Are we prepared to do that? We haven't met anyone else so...

Whomp
Dec 21, 2006, 01:27 PM
It seems Epsilon has been thinking of us too.
Thoughts?
Dear Whomp and all Piffledom, Keepers of the Great Light,

We haven't heard from you in a while, so we thought we'd send another messenger your way say hi!

The Leader, may he live forever, is always looking for mutually beneficial trades with our friends. We believe the time has come for us to sign an open borders agreement to spread prosperity through both our lands.

We understand your security concerns, so we would like to propose a "Traders-Only: Open Borders Agreement" where we would both agree not to send any units of any kind over the others borders. Thus, only trade would flow between our peoples… trade that will be enhanced by your Great Tower of Light, no doubt!

We look forward to hearing any thoughts you have on this deal.
We also remain open to any technology trades, should you like to propose one.

To future peace and prosperity!

Foreign Minister General_W
Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team!

Conroe
Dec 21, 2006, 02:29 PM
Thus, only trade would flow between our peoples... trade that will be enhanced by your Great Tower of Light, no doubt!I don't think this is correct, since we are not on the trading network with them. Unless, of course, something has changed since we last saw the save (possible). But, I really don't see any benefit (to either team) with this deal.

Edit: Just thought of one: If we do decide to build a Galley to explore in their direction, it will be able to skirt through their coastal borders. Without open borders, it probably won't make it past the end of the penninsula. Would that violate the spirit of the agreement? I guess it depends on who owns the galley. :lol: Who knows, maybe they've got a Galley heading down the isthmus, as we speak.

Conroe
Dec 21, 2006, 07:18 PM
I don't think this is correct, since we are not on the trading network with them. Unless, of course, something has changed since we last saw the save (possible).Okay, something did change -- they are now on the trading network. My guess is they hooked up a road from a coastal city to their capital.

Whomp
Dec 21, 2006, 07:22 PM
Hmm...I'm inclined to say yes on open borders since they're all we know plus we need iron and friends. I hate promoting them but until we can build a consensus against them we need to use them while we build.

Conroe
Dec 21, 2006, 10:48 PM
I'm not so sure ... Our net increase in commerce due to foreign trade routes will be 4 -- the exact same for them. The limiting factor is the number of cities, not the number of trade routes. Epsilon has been playing a good game so far, so I'd be shocked that they didn't know this. But they are trying to sell us on the deal by wanting us to believe the Great Lighthouse makes this a better deal for us than for them. Because it doesn't. Honestly, it makes me wonder what their true motives really are ...

Tubby Rower
Dec 22, 2006, 05:46 AM
actually the great lighthouse does increase the number of trade routes in coastal cities... so it could be worth it for us if they had more cities.

Conroe
Dec 22, 2006, 08:28 AM
Yes, the Great Lighthouse increases the number of trade routes. The limiting factor, though, is the number of foreign cities. Since all cities are less than size 10, a domestic trade route is worth 1 commerce and a foreign trade route is worth 2 commerce. They have 4 cities, so open borders would give us an extra 4 commerce. We have 4 cities, so they would also get 4 commerce from us. For the GL to give us a greater benefit than them, they would have to start laying down cities at a rate faster than us.

Different story, though, once we are in beaucracy. Those foreign trade routes will congregate in our capital and be subject to the +50% bonus. And harbors will see a benefit from the GL also, because of this same congregation effect. But for now, they only way the GL gives us an added benefit is if we stop expanding.

Tubby Rower
Dec 22, 2006, 08:31 AM
well it's actually +8 :gold: since we'll be able to have our cities as trade routes as well as gaining 4 new ones @ 2 :commerce: each

Conroe
Dec 22, 2006, 08:34 AM
No it's actually +4 :gold: since we are already getting 4 :gold: from the domestic trade route. Open borders allows 4 domestic trade routes to become foreign trades routes.

Tubby Rower
Dec 22, 2006, 08:48 AM
doesn't the Great light house add trade routes... if we only have 4 currently @ 1 :commerce: then by opening borders we'd get the foreign trade routes added to the coastal cities.. Since not all are coastal, I guess it would be +6... but still. Am I missing something?

either way. I'd rather not open borders with them.

Conroe
Dec 22, 2006, 09:02 AM
Ok, I see where the confusion is coming in now. A domestic city can be part of a domestic trade route any number of times. A foreign city, though, can only have a trade route once in the entire empire. For example, Balderdash is most likely a trade route destination in all 3 of our other cities. But if we open borders, then Epsilon's capital will only be used in a single trade route in only one of our cities.

Bottom line is I don't see where this deal hurts us. But the fact that they imply we will see an added benefit from the deal makes me wary of their true intention. However, I also cannot figure out how they would get an added benefit either.

Tubby Rower
Dec 22, 2006, 09:25 AM
It doesn't hurt us... I think that it helps them more than it helps us, so thereby hurting us in comparison to the leader.

Whomp
Dec 22, 2006, 10:07 AM
We need to be mindful of the bigger picture.

If we don't open borders they'll never see our lands now that Brilliant has cut off their coastal route.
However,i f we deny OBs are we sending a message that we don't trust them? We should we at least counter with a trade? Should we counter with an offer of fish for gpt and peace?

I feel we're on the verge of meeting another team. We can easily build consensus against the front runner Epsilon for the long run however no one will be ready to war with them now. I'd think we would want open borders with that new team.

Should we simply extend an offer of peace and fish for gpt?

Tubby Rower
Dec 22, 2006, 10:08 AM
sure. I would agree to that .. let them make the first suggestion as to the gpt amount

Conroe
Dec 22, 2006, 10:24 AM
We can't do gpt deals until one of us researchs Currency.

Whomp
Dec 22, 2006, 10:47 AM
That's right. Sheesh. Should we offer them fish for free with the benefit being research exchange to our slight advantage? I don't know the beaker costs but right now MC would seem to have some trading legs.

Tubby Rower
Dec 22, 2006, 10:49 AM
I would estimate that fish could be as worth as much as 8 gpt * 20 = 160 :gold:

so a deal in our favor ~ 160 :science:?

Conroe
Dec 22, 2006, 11:05 AM
The problem with the fish deal is that health is probably not a limiting factor for them at the moment. And assuming that they have as wide a variety of resources as we do, it may be quite a while before they are concerned about health. If I were on that team and was offered fish for a cost of 160 beakers, I would turn it down.

Honestly, I wish a few more people would weigh in on this open borders proposal. :please: It seems to be structured as an even deal, at the moment. I'm just wary that, with their past history, they are seeing something that I am not. I'd say lets ask them to table the issue until after Christmas, as too many of our players seem to be gone for the holidays. That would buy us some time, with a reasonable excuse, to think about this and get some more discussion going.

Sweetacshon
Dec 22, 2006, 11:18 AM
Oh yeah, the reason I am not weighing in about OB IS because I am away for xmas/ NY. Try that stalling tactic.. it be unreasonable of them to want to push something thru under these conditions, even if it isn't really why we are stalling. How long until AD, tho, when the treaty runs out?

Whomp
Dec 22, 2006, 11:49 AM
OK how about I tell them we're still discussing the OBs and are exploring the best way to trade techs but holidays and all.
However we'd be interested in extending our peace terms for another 20 turns past 1 AD?

Conroe
Dec 22, 2006, 12:02 PM
OK how about I tell them we're still discussing the OBs and are exploring the best way to trade techs but holidays and all.
However we'd be interested in extending our peace terms for another 20 turns past 1 AD?If I can count right, we've got 12 turns until our treaty expires in 1AD. Another 20 turns past 1AD puts us at 500AD. I can't see us being ready for war before then, so it is probably a good deal. I would also throw in a moritorium on either side researching Construction to gain access to Catapults. The cats would be necessary for war at this stage of the game. If no one is allowed to research the tech, then neither side can prepare for war during this time of peace.

Whomp
Dec 22, 2006, 12:28 PM
OK how about this...


Dear Gen. W,

We received your correspondence and are taking your thoughts into consideration. If it would be ok we'd like to gain some consensus on the open borders and how to proceed with techs till after the holday season. We are interested in discussing how to structure a tech deal but don't seem to have a good idea how.

In the meantime, would you be interested in starting with an extended peace deal through 500 AD?

Yours truly,
Team Piffle

Tubby Rower
Dec 22, 2006, 12:32 PM
:agree: sounds good to me. I might come over to the OB side by then :)

Whomp
Dec 22, 2006, 12:50 PM
I'm not sure OBs are a good plan for us. We've explored more of them than they have of us and now they're cut off. What's that worth?

killercane
Dec 22, 2006, 12:57 PM
They need to pony up something for open borders, we dont need their steenking missionaries or whoever they are going to send down here. I dont see how we benefit from OBs. It will be very nice to meet someone else.

Tubby Rower
Dec 22, 2006, 01:12 PM
I honestly believe that since they are suggesting this... that is enough of a reason to not do the deal. The players on the leader's team are very crafty and know how to lull you into acquiescence (don't really know what that means but it sounds really kool).

As long as it is thought through very well by at least two people and there isn't any major objections, I would go along with OB... but otherwise I'd tell them to stuff it very diplomatically (I have confidence in Whomp's BS factory)

Conroe
Dec 22, 2006, 01:13 PM
I thought there was a clause in the proposal that stated no units can cross the open borders?

As for the peace proposal, Whomp, have you sent it yet? I was just wondering why you decided against the Construction moratorium idea?

Whomp
Dec 22, 2006, 01:19 PM
I will add the construction moratorium. On the open borders we would need to stipulate boats are units then. We need to make sure this is a win for us if we're opening borders.

Whomp
Dec 22, 2006, 03:49 PM
Here's what I sent.
Dear Gen. W,

We received your correspondence and are taking your thoughts into consideration. If it would be ok we'd like to gain some consensus on the open borders and how to proceed with techs till after the holday season.

We are interested in discussing how to structure a tech deal but don't seem to have a good idea how. With our peaceful intent in mind we'd also like to request a moratorium on researching construction.

In the meantime, would you be interested in starting with an extended peace deal through 500 AD?

Yours truly,
Team Piffle

Sweetacshon
Dec 22, 2006, 07:35 PM
Of course we could research construction to come in at 515AD :D That aside, How long is the Toaism tech route going to take? I'm sure we'll all be happy enough to sign OB around this time, and hopefully we'll find someone else soon.

Conroe
Dec 23, 2006, 12:54 AM
We should be able to pop a GS in 22 turns who can lightbulb Taoism for us. Hopefully it will still be around then. :please:

Conroe
Dec 28, 2006, 05:11 PM
I take it we have had no response from Epsilon regarding extending the peace treaty? Hopefully they just forgot ... :shifty:

Whomp
Dec 28, 2006, 05:34 PM
I wonder if they're waiting for a response to our open borders. Maybe we should tell them we don't see a financial benefit to opening borders so we'll decline. The team we meet coming soon would be a better option to opening borders.

Whomp
Dec 28, 2006, 06:01 PM
Wow. This just in.

I don't know what to say. It seems to me they are looking for a friend. :D
It would be nice to be able to trade some techs bought at a discount and sold for near fair value. :satan:

What do you guys make of this?
Dear Piffles, Guardians of the Tower of Light,

The Leader was pleased to hear your message of peace and trade.
In that same spirit, the Leader is pleased to agree to an extension of our guaranteed peace deal till 500AD. To this deal, the Leader has affixed his Word of Honor… you may consider it done.

As for the matter of forbidding research work on this mysterious knowledge of Construction… We get all warm and fuzzy just thinking about arms restrictions agreements with you, our friends. But sadly the world is full of other scary nations that are not as far away as we might like, and so we can’t agree to handicap our defense in this way. We hope our past record of actions and our current agreement to peace are sufficient to demonstrate to you that this is not a hostile action… just a need to keep our options open should things continue to deteriorate on other frontiers.

Next, on trade deals, we recognize that our options are a bit limited at this time, but we would like to propose an idea for your consideration. Since your science rate is lower than ours, The Leader is willing to trade you our knowledge at a 20% discount, in any tech-for-tech swap. Furthermore, if you are interested in catching up quickly, we are willing to sell you any of our current knowledge for 50% of its cost. What are your thoughts on this kind of a deal?

We hope this message of goodwill and peace will help to positively affect your discussions of opening up a Traders-Only open borders agreement with our people. We are eager to have access to Piffle goods.

To future peace and prosperity!

Foreign Minister General_W
Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team!

Conroe
Dec 28, 2006, 07:04 PM
Wow. This just in.

I don't know what to say. It seems to me they are looking for a friend. :D
It would be nice to be able to trade some techs bought at a discount and sold for near fair value. :satan:

What do you guys make of this?Holy Smokes, Batman! :eek:

Does anybody else get the feeling that they seem kind of desperate? I'm not sure what to make of the offer, to be honest.

Anyways, below is a list of the techs that they are currently up on us. That we know of, anyway. I've also included the beaker cost.
Polytheism - 143
Mathematics - 357
Code of Laws - 500
Civil Service - 1144
Monarchy - 429
The only thing we have that they don't is Archery for a measly 85 beakers. Which means if we are going to take advantage of their 50% off sale, we will have to do it on credit.

It is an interesting deal, to say the least. It would be nice to pick up Code of Laws before the save makes it back to us.

Whomp
Dec 28, 2006, 08:05 PM
OK agree to peace and offer to buy CoL with cash?
I think we'll be able to turn around some trades. It also seems apparent they've met some others.

Kickbooti
Dec 28, 2006, 08:12 PM
It also seems apparent they've met some others.

Wow, I wonder who. Sounds like someone put the fear of Sirian in them.

Whomp
Dec 28, 2006, 08:19 PM
Wow, I wonder who. Sounds like someone put the fear of Sirian in them.
I don't know but we're #1 in soldiers and feel we're ill equipped so I'm wondering if it's a ruse on the fear factor.

Conroe
Dec 28, 2006, 08:40 PM
I don't know but we're #1 in soldiers and feel we're ill equipped so I'm wondering if it's a ruse on the fear factor.I think that was just an excuse to decline our no researching Construction proposal. Construction will give them access to War Elephants. Once they have the elephants, they can then go on the offensive.

But if we are the target, why offer us 50% off of any techs? My guess is they believe that we are so backwards that it will be a long time before we become a threat. Who knows ... Honestly though, I look at this deal and have a hard time figuring out what is in it for them ...

Which, of course, makes me even more suspicious of their true intentions ... :shifty:

OK agree to peace and offer to buy CoL with cash?
I think we'll be able to turn around some trades.My guess is that whoever we end up meeting isn't going to give us this sweet of a deal. I say let's get what we can. Any thoughts on this deal?
Peace through 500AD.
Open borders with a "trade-only" clause; meaning that no units may enter either civ's borders.
Technology of Code of Laws, Mathematics, and Monarchy (1286 beakers) @ 50% off is 643 beakers. As we have nothing to offer in return, the 643 beakers will be an available credit for a future trade deal.
Archery (85 beakers) given for free, as a show of good will.

Whomp
Dec 28, 2006, 09:17 PM
That sounds good. Should we consider finishing machinery for multi trades?

Kickbooti
Dec 29, 2006, 09:03 AM
The deal you proposed looks good to me Conroe. I would only ask that boats be allowed to navigate.

Wow, it looks like the Leader may be our good faith partner after all.

That sounds good. Should we consider finishing machinery for multi trades?

I think this is our best card to play, but I would really like to dump a scout near the Leader's land. It would be nice to know if they have access to iron and can take advantage of the crossbows.

If they can, set the peace deal in stone, we won't be able to touch them for awhile. Frankly, if they can't we should probably take the peace deal - we need to build.

With this sweet a tech deal, should we pull back on research and build internally? I specifically ask because the maintinence would be steep for the ivory cities, but if we can let the leader do our research for us while we snag some good resources and stratigically importnat cities...well, that 'aint all bad.

Conroe
Dec 29, 2006, 10:20 AM
I would only ask that boats be allowed to navigate.Is that really a good idea? With the Great Lighthouse, we are going to be founding more than a few coastal cities. Giving them access to our coastline is pretty much an invitation to map out much of our empire.

Kickbooti
Dec 29, 2006, 10:36 AM
Is that really a good idea? With the Great Lighthouse, we are going to be founding more than a few coastal cities. Giving them access to our coastline is pretty much an invitation to map out much of our empire.

That is a really good point...

I think you're right, it may be better for us to keep their ships off our shores.

But please, can we send someone up the isthmus to see if they have settled the ivory? If they haven't I still believe it is worth the stretch, for lux and stratigic reasons. If we can keep their navy divided that is all to our good.

Conroe
Dec 29, 2006, 10:36 AM
It looks like Innovia currently has the save. I think we should make an effort to get an answer back to Epsilon before the save gets to them. It would be nice to have those techs in our hands when the save gets back to us.

Conroe
Dec 29, 2006, 10:38 AM
But please, can we send someone up the isthmus to see if they have settled the ivory? If they haven't I still believe it is worth the stretch, for lux and stratigic reasons.Balderdash will complete a Galley this turn. I presume that is the direction it will be sailing.

Whomp
Jan 01, 2007, 12:38 PM
I sent Robi D (aloha) a pm requesting a discussion between our teams. I think this is a team we can be confident to be a good partner long term.

We should discuss coordinating research and our other relations. They are already aware of the Epsilon problem.

What do you think?

Conroe
Jan 01, 2007, 01:47 PM
We should discuss coordinating research and our other relations. They are already aware of the Epsilon problem.

What do you think?I'm all for it. :thumbsup:

What do you mean by "They are already aware of the Epsilon problem"? Have they already met Epsilon? What did RobiD say about them?

Whomp
Jan 01, 2007, 02:07 PM
I'm all for it. :thumbsup:

What do you mean by "They are already aware of the Epsilon problem"? Have they already met Epsilon? What did RobiD say about them?
No I think they're aware of the problem because some of them were in the 18 person pitboss game with Davemcw (Memphus filling in at times) and also the c3c MTDG which was won with many of the same players on Epsilon.

We should tell them we know Epsilon.

killercane
Jan 01, 2007, 02:59 PM
I can probably talk to Robi today sometime. They have CoL, I say we ask them for it, and give them CS in return, along with trading some other stuff to get math, or some such calculation. If I talk to him, should I be open with all information or leave anything in particular out? We want them as long term buddies and I would think they would agree. I would vote to stop research on CoL til we have something in place.

Conroe
Jan 01, 2007, 03:21 PM
If I talk to him, should I be open with all information or leave anything in particular out?I would keep mum about how close we are on Machinery. If we get CS and math out of the way, we might be able to start researching Caravels. It would be nice to have them in the water long before anyone else ...

As for CoL, we have 6 turns remaining. I have no problem trading for it, I just wish we would not have started it. :sad: Also, I would prefer getting a little something more than CoL and Math for the rather expensive CS.

Whomp
Jan 01, 2007, 06:41 PM
I'm inclined to ask them if they'd like a long term alliance and how open they want to be. If they're willing to be completely open then we can be too. Duplicating research is not a good plan if we're partnering.

Conroe
Jan 01, 2007, 07:01 PM
I would vote to stop research on CoL til we have something in place.The save is here ... Do we want to continue CoL or switch to something else?

killercane
Jan 01, 2007, 07:06 PM
I dont know, no one from their team is around it looks like. Maybe we can sit on it overnight? Or turn off/switch research and hope to work out a deal?

Whomp
Jan 01, 2007, 07:18 PM
I'd wait till tomorrow and see if Robi comes online tonight.

Whomp
Jan 01, 2007, 08:50 PM
I'm talking to Robi D of Aloha now. Here's what I've got so far.


...some blah blah then....
Whomp says:
and Aloha!
Rob says:
yes we see your galley. Which do you want to talk about first
Rob says:
simon is the man for foriegn stuff but he is away for a couple of day
Rob says:
oh ok
Whomp says:
no probs
Rob says:
we can still talk about some things, i still remember how to do the diplomacy thing
Whomp says:
Our team is happy to meet you guys for sure
Rob says:
so i gather you guys are interested in peace and friendship
Whomp says:
We are
Whomp says:
My personal #1 partner but we can discuss whether you're interested in that or not
Rob says:
we are happy to have a positive relationship with you guys
Rob says:
if we can work it out personally i'm happy to have it that us 2 are the last ones left
Whomp says:
my thinking as well
Whomp says:
sounds like a broken record
Rob says:
so who have you met/found?
Whomp says:
We've met Epsilon...eek
Whomp says:
you?
Rob says:
i though as much
Rob says:
we have found Innovia and met Loco
Whomp says:
ok cool
Rob says:
Innovia have been friendly and Loco coolish
Whomp says:
i wonder if we can figure out some tech deals
Whomp says:
epsilon has offered a 20% discount on their techs
Whomp says:
and 50% if paid in cash
Rob says:
as for Loco we are not sure whether or not thats down to the lack of MTDG expierence in the team
Whomp says:
i'm putting my trust in you by giving you that info
Rob says:
interesting offer
Whomp says:
but i'd like to make a long term deal with you guys
Rob says:
we haven't had much time to talk about it in the team since most are off on holidays so i don't want to mislead you by getting to specific but we would be interested in looking at tech swapping on a beaker for beaker basis
Whomp says:
i'd think loco is timid because they don't know who to trust
Whomp says:
ok
Rob says:
i suppose you guys would be interested in maths?
Whomp says:
i would like to take advantage of Epsilon's lead
Rob says:
what do they have?
Whomp says:
having Bureau has helped them enormously
Rob says:
i agree with that
Rob says:
that has given them a boost
Whomp says:
i'd have to look but they are powerful already
Whomp says:
interesting map with the isthmus'
Rob says:
yes from what we can see its an interesting layout, but we haven't done as much exploring as we would have liked
Whomp says:
civ4 is a tough game trying to balance out everything you want
Rob says:
especially when your scouts get eaten
Whomp says:
we had a couple shocking losses
Whomp says:
curse Sirian
Rob says:
hehe
Rob says:
what are you researching currently?
Whomp says:
CoL
Rob says:
ok
Rob says:
we can probably still work some deals out of the next few turns
Whomp says:
OBs with no units?
Whomp says:
boats maybe?
Whomp says:
could you use the trade route?
Rob says:
do we have a trade route available?
Whomp says:
not sure
Whomp says:
should soon i'd think
Rob says:
well i don't think anyone would disagree with having OB
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
see what your team thinks about a long term partnership
Rob says:
and i don't see the need for any unit restrictions
Whomp says:
we'd rather not partner with epsilon for reasons I think we're both well aware of
Rob says:
haha yes quite correct
Rob says:
there is about 4 i can think of
Rob says:
well next time one of us gets the save OB can be sent
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
i'll post this
Whomp says:
and when simon gets back we can talk or Killercane
Rob says:
no probs
Rob says:
btw have you guys discovered Iron Working?
Whomp says:
i'd like to manipulate that epsilon offer
Whomp says:
there's got to be a way for us to get to tech parity and lead i'd think
Whomp says:
I think we have
Rob says:
have you found Iron deposits anywhere?
Whomp says:
hehe
Whomp says:
no and i assume you haven't either
Rob says:
nope
Rob says:
damn sirian
Whomp says:
haha
Whomp says:
elephants lol
Rob says:
*shakes fist*
Rob says:
there is a positive to that
Rob says:
only one team has an iron dependant UU
Rob says:
guess which one
Whomp says:
Epsilon
Rob says:

Rob says:
somehow i can bring myself to feel sorry for them
Whomp says:
Sirian really messed up the traditional way of doing things
Rob says:
can't
Rob says:
i like it myself, make you think about things because you can't use the same tactics as always
Rob says:
No iron means no pike, crossbows, knights, cannons and frigates oh and swords
Rob says:
i must say epsilons offer is an interesting one, they definately are eager for gold? were they asking 1 gold per beaker?
Whomp says:
they're eager for a partner
Whomp says:
the gold part is suicide
Rob says:
absolutely, they want to run 100% research
Whomp says:
right
Whomp says:
unless we're able to stick it to them somehow i doubt we'd do that and are very leery of the 20% too
Rob says:
Well from our stand point at this current time it could be possible to have a 3 way alliance with us and Innovia since like i said they have been friendly
Whomp says:
that would be fine too
Rob says:
If Epsilon want to deal with Loco then good luck to them
Whomp says:
well i think we'd be open to a 3 way partnership
Whomp says:
and crush the others either financially or militarily
Rob says:
a 3 way trading alliance would nullifly any advantage Epsilon would have gotten from getting CS early
Whomp says:
they made no stipulations on trades either
Whomp says:
so the 20% one could haunt them
Rob says:
interesting
Whomp says:
right so if we can all coordinate research all the better
Rob says:
they couldn't be that silly
Whomp says:
no stipulations
Whomp says:
they're looking for a partner...i think they know they're Davemcw
Rob says:
oh well thats something to look into at some stage
Rob says:
so they haven't met anyone except you?
Whomp says:
they haven't asked and neither have we
Rob says:
the only other possiblity is Loco
Whomp says:
that's not helping them i'd think
Whomp says:
though i don't know loco's makeup since we haven't met them
Rob says:
i'm happy for them to stay isolated
Whomp says:
Me too
Whomp says:
but i'd like to take advantage of them somehow
Rob says:
anyway i should go and post this stuff so our boffins can have a look at it and see that we can get some deals up and going quickly
Whomp says:
ok sounds good
Rob says:
lets not do the taking advantage again
Whomp says:

Rob says:
didn't work last time and i'm not trying it again
Rob says:

Whomp says:
different deal
Whomp says:
we have no stipulations
Whomp says:
so we'll see
Rob says:
ideally we would like to meet them with a greeting party of about 15 cossaks and support staff
Whomp says:
heheh
Whomp says:
ok well i better go too. Vegas tomorrow.

Sweetacshon
Jan 01, 2007, 09:04 PM
It wouldn't hurt to set research to 0% for a turn... it just means we can go at 100% for another turn later, or put it toward an epsilon tech, etc.

As for being buddies with Aloha, let's not put all our eggs in one basket.. hmm... I'm not sure thats the best cliche here ;). Anyway, let's not just everything out yet as we don't really know the state of things yet... we are just a backward southern people. ie let's not get into full alliance talks just yet. The things I'd like discussed are:

Who they know, and their feelings toward them (we can easily tell them about epsilons beareucracy treachery, but no need to go into details of the treaty)
Tech trades, with a view to us getting taoism
OBs with some idea of their closest port so we can get trade income, leveraging TGL.
Non aggresion pact.


One other thing which isn't quite foreign is the goody huts we've left. If we're not going to produce a scout, let's just take them, if we are going to produce a scout, let's do it now.

killercane
Jan 02, 2007, 11:22 AM
So are we sending the turn on with research set to 0?

Tubby Rower
Jan 02, 2007, 11:32 AM
sounds ok to me.. Its not too big of a deal to turn it back up to 100% next turn.

Conroe
Jan 02, 2007, 02:50 PM
I think Whomp is out, so I will go ahead and post this. We received this message:

Dear Piffle Light Keepers,

Our merchants and wisemen have put their heads together, and we've
come up with a new idea to get the tech trading engine jump-started.

The Leader has offered to lower our initial gold-to-beakers trade
ratio to 40% to see if we can't start things off on the right foot.

For example: what would you think of getting Code of Laws
(350:science: ) for 140:gold: - naturally we'd deduct the 30:gold: we
still owe you, bringing your cost down all the way to just 110:gold:

If you wanted Code of Laws right away, we'd be willing to send it next
turn, if you were still willing to provide Archery as a kind of
"goodwill interest payment" - we wouldn't expect anything like this
again... just on this first deal while we're waiting for Currency to
move off the drawing board.

As for payment plans - we are prepared to offer you your choice of 3
plans - commencing as soon as Epsilon Team acquires knowledge of
Currency (which, full disclosure, we expect to be quite soon).
Plan A) 10 gold per turn for 11 turns
Plan B) 8 gold per turn for 14 turns
Plan C) 6 gold per turn for 20 turns
We are happy to accept whichever plan you like best.

Is this plan more to your liking?
We sincerely hope so - but if not, we are eager to hear your alternate plan.

All the best,
Foreign Minister General_W
Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team!


It is an interesting message to say the least. They come forward and tell us they are researching Currency. I suspected as much after their last message. And they are showing CoL at 350 beakers, whereas we are seeing it at 500 beakers. Not sure what is up with that.

I also think they are coming across as desperate. For what, I'm not sure. Are they looking for a long term trading partner or are they seeing a cash crunch coming. :undecide: Anybody else have any thoughts?

I'm thinking that we probably should keep on good relations with Epsilon for the time being. At least until our economy improvements have a chance to kick in. I was thinking of sending the following reply:

Greetings Epsilonians!

Your offer of trade is certainly a generous offer. We are pleased that relations between our two peoples continue to strengthen that you would make such an offer!

I must tell you that our Chief Trades Negoiator and Fearless Leader seems to have wandered off somewhere. Rumor has it that he is visiting a land called "Vegas". Or was it a Chevy Vega? :hmm: Either way, it is doubtful that an agreement can be finalized until Whomp's return.

In the interests of full disclosure, I should probably inform you that we are very close to completing our research into Code of Laws. So a deal along those lines probably won't be happening. Possibly something similiar may be worked out for some of your other rather interesting knowledge?

Sincerely,
The Piffles


I'm not really very good at the diplomacy aspects of this game, so anybody feel free to jump in and write up something better.

Tubby Rower
Jan 02, 2007, 05:00 PM
that reply sounds good to me. They are loan sharks on top of being skirvy dogs!!

Kickbooti
Jan 03, 2007, 11:57 AM
That message sounded good Conroe.

If I am processing everything correctly Aloha hadn't met Epsilon but had met the other two. I wonder if Epsilon has met anyone yet?

I can only imagine their tech pace is creating a cash crunch. But as is obvious, they could just be trolling for allies.

I have no problem remaining on good terms with Epsilon. I see no benefit in turning on them at this point.

I think that the substance of the next communication we have should be friendly and non-committal.

Tubby Rower
Jan 03, 2007, 12:33 PM
That message sounded good Conroe.

If I am processing everything correctly ... Epsilon ... has ... cash . But ... trolling ... allies ... have ... no problem remaining on good terms with Epsilon. ....
:agree: That's the way I see it too.. but next time don't put those extra words in Booti. it confuses the kids.

Kickbooti
Jan 03, 2007, 12:46 PM
:agree: That's the way I see it too.. but next time don't put those extra words in Booti. it confuses the kids.

I hear that from the congregation too...:rolleyes:

Conroe
Jan 04, 2007, 10:10 PM
I found this note in our mailbox ...

Dear Piffleness

Well im back now, time to kick this foreign policies arse. We cant trade CoL was the stipulations in our tech deal. We will have to check with whom we traded it to find out whether this deal can be accomplished. We will get back to you asap.


We can offer you calendar instead of CoL for the swap but appreciate that wont be of as much use, also could we agree to a meditation/poly swap?

regards
bclg

:gripe: I am going to turn CoL research back on, unless there are any strong objections. I will delay playing the save until in the morning. In the meantime, would someone care to draft a reply?

Whomp
Jan 05, 2007, 08:55 AM
Sorry I was gone and had this in my pm box.

Dear Whomp and Piffle Light Keepers,

Our merchants and wisemen have put their heads together, and we’ve come up with a new idea to get the tech trading engine jump-started.

The Leader has offered to lower our initial gold-to-beakers trade ratio to 40% to see if we can’t start things off on the right foot.

For example: what would you think of getting Code of Laws (350 ) for 140 - naturally we’d deduct the 30 we still owe you, bringing your cost down all the way to just 110

If you wanted Code of Laws right away, we’d be willing to send it next turn, if you were still willing to provide Archery as a kind of “goodwill interest payment” – we wouldn’t expect anything like this again… just on this first deal while we’re waiting for Currency to move off the drawing board.

As for payment plans – we are prepared to offer you your choice of 3 plans – commencing as soon as Epsilon Team acquires knowledge of Currency (which, full disclosure, we expect to be quite soon).
Plan A) 10 gold per turn for 11 turns
Plan B) 8 gold per turn for 14 turns
Plan C) 6 gold per turn for 20 turns
We are happy to accept whichever plan you like best.

Is this plan more to your liking?
We sincerely hope so – but if not, we are eager to hear your alternate plan.

All the best,
Foreign Minister General_W
Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team!

Conroe
Jan 05, 2007, 09:07 AM
Sorry I was gone and had this in my pm box.Welcome back, Whomp! Hope you had fun in Vegas!

They also sent that message to our email account. I posted it here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4937718#post4937718) and you can also see the reply that we sent. You should also check out Aloha's message about not being able to trade CoL.

Conroe
Jan 05, 2007, 09:12 AM
Aloha wanting to trade for Meditation makes me wonder if they aren't trying to lightbulb Philosophy. They are the only other team that does not have a religion. Although, somebody founded Judaism but we don't know who, yet.

Anyway, I did some digging in our log file to see who has what great people. I didn't really learn anything, but it was interesting:

Turn 65 - 1400BC The Oracle has been built in a far away land (Epsilon).
Turn 72 - 1120BC Stonehenge has been built in a far away land (Loco).
Turn 79 - 900BC Pifflenatress has completed the Great Lighthouse.
Turn 89 - 650BC Moses (Prophet) has been born in a far away land (Innovia).
Turn 90 - 625BC The Kashi Vishwanath (Hindu Shrine) has been built in a far away land (Innovia).
Turn 98 - 425BC The Colossus has been built in a far away land (Aloha).
Turn 99 - 400BC Mahavira (Prophet) has been born in a far away land (???).
Turn 103 - 300BC Harkuf (Merchant) has been born in Balderdash.
Turn 104 - 275BC Zoroaster (Prophet) has been born in a far away land (Loco).
Turn 107 - 200BC The Mahabodhi (Buddhist Shrine) has been built in a far away land (Loco).
Turn 110 - 125BC The Great Library has been built in a far away land (Epsilon).
Turn 110 - 125BC Ananda (Prophet) has been born in a far away land (Epsilon).
Turn 112 - 75BC The Kong Miao (Confucian Shrine) has been built in a far away land (Epsilon).

Industrious Teams: Loco, Epsilon
Philosophical Teams: Piffle, Innovia

Conroe
Jan 07, 2007, 02:05 PM
Aloha put an Open Borders request into the save file. Do we want open borders? I assume that if we are willing to open borders with Epsilon then we would be OK to open them with Aloha. I will hold off playing the save for a couple of hours to get some feedback.

Tubby Rower
Jan 07, 2007, 02:36 PM
I would say yes. If we have open borders with both, then we could cut one off later, if needed, and not see any effects without negotiations.

btw, do we have an open trade route with Aloha?

pindicator
Jan 07, 2007, 02:51 PM
No, we don't. We can't see a city.

Conroe
Jan 10, 2007, 05:52 PM
Epsilon has replied to our response (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4937718#post4937718):

Piffleantrians,

Thank you for keeping us appraised of your situation. It is most appreciated.

Since Code of Laws is off the table, I believe that puts Polytheism,
Literature, or Math into play.
Are you interested in any of those? All of them?

We await your response, and stand ready to craft a payment plan and
transfer knowledge right away.

Your friends in Peace and Trade,

Foreign Minster General_W
Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team!

P.S. Hope Mr. Whomp had a wonderful time of R&R in this Vegas place
you speak of...Honestly, I find what they don't say to be much more interesting than what they do say ...

Conroe
Jan 10, 2007, 05:58 PM
:confused: :confused: :confused:

Did someone negotiate a trade with Aloha?

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/5210/mtdg100bcalohahuhxd5.jpg

killercane
Jan 10, 2007, 07:31 PM
That was out of the blue. I assume that was from me sending a PM to Robi D, saying

"Team Piffle is wondering if you guys wanted to swap CoL and Math for Civil Service or some of the other techs we have or can get soon. Work out actual tech costs later... Talk to me or Whomper when you get a chance.
"

Never heard back from him after Whomp talked to him. I thought they werent interested. CoL is definitely off the table, wonder what else they have to offer?

Why is everyone wanting to trade techs all of a sudden? Does Epsilon and Aloha know each other and are in a bidding war to get something from us for tech?

Whomp
Jan 10, 2007, 07:36 PM
I have it and it's bclg100AThotmailDOTcom but he shows offline even though sometimes he's really online. I'm not sure how he does that but...

If I see him or Robi I'll let them know we're not interested in CoL. That was pretty random considering we haven't talked to him about where we stand.

Tubby Rower
Jan 11, 2007, 05:33 AM
This brings up something else... don't accept any agreements, including peace without first having advance notice from the other team.

Conroe
Jan 11, 2007, 10:11 AM
As a starting point for discussions, Civil Service is an 1144 beaker tech. Aloha is showing Math (357 beakers), Monarchy (429 beakers), and Polytheism (143 beakers) available to trade. Not sure, but I'd say we've got about 150 beakers remaining on Code of Laws.

Other than as a prereq for Literature, I really don't see that we have any use for Polytheism. So, I would take that one off the table. I would propose that we offer them Civil Service for Math and Monarchy. That would leave them owing us 358 beakers (1144 - 786) that I think we should just carry over as a credit to a future trade, if they are agreeable. It would be interesting to know what else they have that we can't see.

I also think we need to reply to Epsilon's message. My guess is that we are making them nervous by not talking to them. At this point in the game, I really don't want those guys nervous!

Also keep in mind that if we do a multi-tech deal with Aloha, we have just telegraphed to Epsilon that we know someone else. Is this something that we want to do? It may be better to space out the techs every couple of turns.

Whomp
Jan 11, 2007, 02:03 PM
I will respond to Epsilon once we've proposed the other deal to Aloha. I like being on the positive side of the ledger and I still prefer them as a long term partner. Anyone else have thoughts? I'll send this in an hour.

killercane
Jan 12, 2007, 08:56 AM
BCLG proposes adding calendar from them into the mix (w/ mon and math) for CS and Meditation. Edit: and perhaps more...

Simon says:
i sent a reply to whomp about 1 maybe 2 hours ago concerning the tech deal
Simon says:
how about this one
casey j says:
we were thinking monarchy + math, then just work something else out for tech costs later. you guys would just owe us a debt to work out
Simon says:
math, monarchy and calendar for CS and med
Simon says:
it leaves you 23 beakers in our debt
casey j says:
that might work
casey j says:
lets see
casey j says:
i posted that in the forums, we will see what the team says
Simon says:
also, with your permision we'd trade CS on to innovia and give you a cut price deal on whatever we get in return
Simon says:
that way the 3 of us would be in beauro
casey j says:
what do they have?
Simon says:
ill just check
casey j says:
to give in return
Simon says:
damn i just missed theoden
Simon says:
(on msn that is)
Simon says:
ok our forums are more messed up than KISS's were
Simon says:
but from the gist of it it seems innovia will have CS v soon also
Simon says:
ok im just going to load up the game see the techs everyone has and this will make more sense
casey j says:
ok
casey j says:
im trying to see what else is good out there but i cant load these pbem saves for some reason
casey j says:
what about construction?
Simon says:
hmmm well what would you say about trading CS from us and using your GM on something else?
casey j says:
damn simon you are going to make me pull up GP tech preferences arent you?
Simon says:
lol i imagine its currency next
casey j says:
thats a good idea
casey j says:
currency is almost done by Epsilon, i know they were wanting to trade it recently but we havent replied
casey j says:
we could get machinery
Simon says:
ok just downloading save now and opening tech screen on cfc
Simon says:
math CS for currency machinery
Simon says:
that'd leave us about 100 beakers in your debt i think
casey j says:
hmm let me see what the team thinks
casey j says:
what about monarchy
casey j says:
we are also interested in construction for cats
casey j says:
in case we go to war w/ epsilon
Simon says:
hmmm i dont think we have it
casey j says:
ok maybe we could work out some future deals and direct research
casey j says:
are you usually on about this time?
Simon says:
kinda varied recently
Simon says:
but i can be on fairly often
casey j says:
i'll pm you or something
casey j says:
but i will see what we want to do and get back to you asap
Simon says:
the amount of piffle members i have on my msn im sure ill find someone
casey j says:
do you know how close innovia is to CS?
Simon says:
just loading up the save really
Simon says:
'very soon' is what we got in last chat i had with them
casey j says:
hmm ok, we will get something worked out
Simon says:
they already have it
Simon says:
according to latest save
casey j says:
oh well good
casey j says:
let me get some feedback and i will track you down and we can get this done
Simon says:
hmmm hang on a sex
Simon says:
*sec
Simon says:
the only problem is that looking at the save now they appear to have all the techs we were offering them
casey j says:
damn
casey j says:
did they meet someone?
Simon says:
im not sure, they were interested in forming a 3 way against epsilon
Simon says:
but basically if you can get them techs they also dont have them so we can trade them so all 3 of us have it
casey j says:
alright, well we were 7 turns from machinery before we changed to CoL, so we will have that soon, and we might be able to trade for currency from Epsilon with outdated techs that they dont have
casey j says:
if that is so, we could be tech leaders for a while
Simon says:
mmmm, just noticed the score right now you do seem a little behind
casey j says:
yeah we have dropped I believe, just need to get some cities down
Simon says:
yeah your about 60 odd points behind us
Simon says:
christ knows how loco are doing so well, both us and innovia are finding them difficult to work with
casey j says:
who is on that team?
Simon says:
*shrug* koondrad, jeejepp
Simon says:
or something like that
Simon says:
no-one ive ever heard of really
casey j says:
nobody anybody knows?
Simon says:
not really i dont think
casey j says:
hmm well i will post this convo and we will see what the tech brokers can come up with. have you met epsilon?
Simon says:
no
Simon says:
btw, we were curious why you withdrew your galley after siging OB
Simon says:
?
casey j says:
well between the two of us we know everybody, so that bodes well for tech brokering
casey j says:
i havent the slightest idea
casey j says:
im not playing the turns, we had some kind of warrior popping a hut adventure somewhere up there
Simon says:
oh ok
casey j says:
but i think he was dropped off prior to coming over to you guys, so i will find out
Simon says:
yep we didnt see anything in it when it arrived
casey j says:
Conroe will know. i will post this and see what everyone says
Simon says:
k doke, it'd be good if we could do the machinery CS swap
Simon says:
means you can save your GM for something more usefull
casey j says:
does anyone have iron?
Simon says:
lol
Simon says:
not that we know of
Simon says:
poor poor epsilon
casey j says:
there has to be some iron island out there somewhere, yeah poor guys they just dont have a chance
Simon says:
yep, though there is the outside chance of some appearing on a hill
casey j says:
alright i have to run, but i will get ahold of you soon
casey j says:
take it easy simon
Simon says:
k doke cyas later

killercane
Jan 12, 2007, 09:36 AM
If we broker right, we should be able to get currency, machinery, CS, math, monarchy, and the rest while keeping our GM intact. Just how do we do it? Innovia might or might not be on board, and will Epsilon trade us currency for outdated stuff they dont have? I forget how much they owe us. Maybe they want to help a brother out since they dont know anyone else? I dont see any key techs that the GM will open up soon, maybe we could use him for gold then?

Whomp
Jan 12, 2007, 09:36 AM
That sounds like a pretty solid deal. Two happiness techs and they get some war benefits. Calendar could be trading material (at the discount) with Epsilon.

From what I can tell Aloha is pretty cozy with Innovia but not with the other team they've met. I think they also know that Epsilon is the team that's everyone's biggest threat.

Conroe
Jan 12, 2007, 10:58 AM
Simon says:
btw, we were curious why you withdrew your galley after siging OB
The Galley did NOT withdraw. Reaching their borders, our Galley could either go left or right. I chose left. Evidently, Aloha was to the right.




As to the tech deal, I'm not sure how we could work out a deal for CS, Math, and Monarchy considering the only thing we have to offer would be Machinery. Are they absolutely opposed to buying CS from us?

I'm also not enamoured with the idea of giving up Machinery (or with telling them how close we were to getting it!). It is one of the 3 techs required to put Caravels in the water. I, too, wonder if there will be an iron filled island in the middle of the map. It would sure be nice to be the first one to get to it. But, just as important, I am looking ahead to the circumnavigation bonus. That would be a real plus on this map!

killercane
Jan 12, 2007, 06:27 PM
'm also not enamoured with the idea of giving up Machinery (or with telling them how close we were to getting it!). It is one of the 3 techs required to put Caravels in the water. I, too, wonder if there will be an iron filled island in the middle of the map. It would sure be nice to be the first one to get to it. But, just as important, I am looking ahead to the circumnavigation bonus. That would be a real plus on this map!

Sorry to let them know that, but I think we need friends and to be upfront about it. We have to bring something to the table I think, but I dont think we will have to trade machinery. Just talked to General W on MSN, they will do a calendar for currency swap (would leave us 20 beakers in their debt but they will just wipe it). So with or without highlighting CS, we should be up currency on Aloha, if we do CS for math, monarchy, and calendar, then we just complete machinery and we should be ahead. If we get CS from Innovia-Aloha, we might have to send in currency to someone. There is real opportunity here to direct research of the others and broker I think.

Epsilon mentioned that they are nearing completion on catapults*. I was naturally tight lipped with those scurvy dogs so no state secrets were given away ;). But I used flowery Whompian language to let our Epsilonian allies know that they are always #1 with us. Can we get Aloha to go ahead and send us math and calendar I wonder...

killercane
Jan 12, 2007, 06:35 PM
I also asked BCLG to send CoL as a freebie to us since we are so close to researching it, and that we could send meditation as a good will payment on math, calendar and the like. We cant get math before we lightbulb CS I think, as it will then lightbulb currency.

Caravels are a good point. I hardly ever use the things for transporting, but in this game it would be nice to find some goody islands.

Conroe
Jan 12, 2007, 06:38 PM
I'm sorry to be a pain in the butt here, but I'm not sure if I understand the deals that you've brokered.

Aloha has agreed to give us Math, Monarchy, and Calendar in exchange for us giving them CS? What about the 300+ beaker difference?

We then turn around and trade Epsilon Calendar for Currency? No more 20% discount, I take it? And we've now told them that we know another team, as well.

Conroe
Jan 12, 2007, 06:40 PM
I also asked BCLG to send CoL as a freebie to us since we are so close to researching it, and that we could send meditation as a good will payment on math, calendar and the like.Since Aloha is the only other team without a religion, I'd rather not give them Meditation until after we lightbulb Philosophy.

killercane
Jan 12, 2007, 06:44 PM
Math, monarchy and calendar for CS and meditation, proposed by Aloha.

Calendar for currency from Epsilon. 350 for 400 beakers I think.

I think it is a great deal for us and can be even better if we dont have to lightbulb CS with our merchant, which I dont know how that could be done w/o Machinery. I do like the idea to hold on to machinery to get some caravels out first.

Yes they know we know another team.

killercane
Jan 12, 2007, 06:45 PM
How close are we to lightbulbing philo?

Whomp
Jan 12, 2007, 07:20 PM
Haha. Nice work 'Cane. It sounds like masterful diplo sessions.

Conroe
Jan 14, 2007, 03:58 PM
:confused: OK, here we go again ...

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/4853/mtdg50bccolew0.jpg

Did we agree to buy CoL from them? :confused: This doesn't really make sense to me with only 1 turn remaining ...

Tubby Rower
Jan 14, 2007, 08:06 PM
no but they might think that we took it from them. We need to send them that screenshot and let them know that we didn't accept it or they'll be calling for later payment for CoL

killercane
Jan 14, 2007, 08:48 PM
They are kings of randomness. I think it is a freebie to get us to CS a turn quicker, but I have not heard anything from them on, well, anything. They are making me look bad ;).

I say dont accept it until we hear something from them.

Conroe
Jan 14, 2007, 08:53 PM
Ok, I'll sit on the save until we hear something back from them ... The save is ours for another 17 hours.

Whomp
Jan 14, 2007, 09:10 PM
I'm around all day tomorrow so I'll search out BCLG or Robi.

killercane
Jan 15, 2007, 09:02 AM
This was in my inbox today.

'Innovia have agreed to the deal we shall forward Civilservice onto you asap, any idea on the times of currency and machinery?'

Simon



*currency sorry

My reply:
So what is the propsoed deal so we can vote on it as a team?

Innovia- gives CS.
Aloha- gives math, calendar, monarchy.
Piffle- gives currency, machinery, meditation.

Innovia seems to be getting the best deal here. We will see what the Pifflelators say.

Oh and we did not accept CoL as we were one turn from it anyway and had not heard anything from you guys.

If that is not the deal, let me know. If we wanted to just do a CS/currency for calendar math and monarchy between the two of us would you want to do that?

Reply from Simon
Innovia gives us med and CS
we give innovia machinery and calendar
we give you CS and monarchy
you give us machinery and currency.

looking at the tech prices its still win win

except innovia has a slight beaker difference in there favour.

killercane
Jan 15, 2007, 10:05 AM
I am through doing this foreign relations junk. They have traded for CS promising machinery from us, with no agreement from us. This is ridiculous.

Simon says:
we already have CS....
Simon says:
we were under the assumption that you had already agreed to the tech deal
casey j says:
who agreed?
Simon says:
sorry?
casey j says:
i agreed?
casey j says:
or whomp or?
Simon says:
just opening up the forums
Simon says:
Did you find out if you guys can get CS from Innovia? I think we can get Currency from Epsilon to throw in the mix if you need trade bait, they have been knocking down our door to trade something/anything.
Simon says:
that one implied to us that you wanted to proceed with the trade
casey j says:
with what trade though? we hadnt worked out the details
casey j says:
you hadnt heard from innovia at that time
Simon says:
well hang on ill just check whether we have CS yet
casey j says:
i dont want to be a pain but we do have to vote on everything
Simon says:
no i appreciate that
casey j says:
if it was just me i would say sure lets do it
Simon says:
yup i know, im just checking if the deal has actually gone through yet
Simon says:
just speaking to dutchfire now
Simon says:
alas, we have already traded CS with them
Simon says:
and we now have it avaliable
Simon says:
unfortunatly if your not willing to trade machinery for it we're going to have to research it ourselves to hold to our end of the bargain with innovia
casey j says:
k we will see what they say
Simon says:
apologies for the mix up
casey j says:
i am for it but others arent
casey j says:
what about calendar for currency swap?
Simon says:
we can if it would make piffle happier force innovia to agree to a no trade further with machinery (ie so it doesnt get to epsilon)
casey j says:
hmm ok i will post that
Simon says:
we would prefer to trade machinery with you than self research it obviously
Simon says:
and also stop you wasting a GM on a tech the majority of the game already have

How in the hell is that an agreement and that you should act on that? We might be able to get Currency? How does that get turned in to: we will give you Machinery for CS???

Conroe
Jan 15, 2007, 10:08 AM
Oh and we did not accept CoL as we were one turn from it anyway and had not heard anything from you guys.Just to clarify a point here, I have not yet answered the trade options screen. We can still accept it, depending on the price ...


Reply from Simon
Innovia gives us med and CS
we give innovia machinery and calendar
we give you CS and monarchy
you give us machinery and currency.Looks like no math ... We would really need to get Math before our GS will offer Philosophy. My gut instinct says we should decline this deal. However, I am open to persuasion ...




Edit: Oops! Crossposted with Killercane! It looks like my thoughts may be for naught ... as Aloha has set the deal in stone already. :undecide: Maybe we should contact Innovia directly and explain things to them (assuming this is allowed since we do not have in-game contact yet)?

Tubby Rower
Jan 15, 2007, 10:11 AM
I'd prefer not to accept this deal either. It seems as though they are acting as though we are an extension of their team by offering stuff to others that we have not even discussed. I too could change my mind if someone offers a valid reason behind their actions

killercane
Jan 15, 2007, 10:13 AM
Looks like no math ... We would really need to get Math before our GS will offer Philosophy. My gut instinct says we should decline this deal. However, I am open to persuasion ...
I know, I mean damn, that was part of the deal from the start and we need calendar to trade for currency :confused:. I have called in the experts whomp and I are talking to BCLG right now. It would be good if you guys could get in on MSN.

Whomp
Jan 15, 2007, 11:03 AM
Here's a conversation with BCLG....very confusing to us. I'm not sure where we are rewarded for being closest to Epsilon. I think we should trade but leave our options open as to whether we'll partner with Epsilon long term. It seems to us that the Innovia/Aloha relationship is taking precedence.
casey j says:
no Aloha wants to send us CS for machinery basically
casey j says:
and some other stuff
casey j says:
and i thought some would object (Conroe)
Whomp says:
would it be traded to innovia?
Simon says:
hmmm, well CS is worth more, we save you a GM, everyone can research more to kill epsilon- i dont see why not?
Simon says:
yes it would be
Whomp says:
and the other team?
Simon says:
loco?
Whomp says:
si mucho loco
Simon says:
no, not for many a moon
Simon says:
talking to them is like getting blood from a stone
Simon says:
we just wait for them to contact us when they want something
Simon says:
so if you want we can say machinery is untradable
Simon says:
to loco
Whomp says:
I would simply like to participate in any booty received from the tech
Whomp says:
so if you make a deal with them I think we'd like a piece of that action if it's possible
Simon says:
of course
Simon says:
we'd inform you if we were and then give you a discount or whatever on whatever we recieve
Simon says:
if that makes sense?
Whomp says:
so after everything's said and done are we all at tech parity?
Simon says:
no, i think you are still a little behind
Whomp says:
Why?
Simon says:
we right now have CS, calender, monarchy and math
Whomp says:
Becauase you have contacts?
Simon says:
you have meditation
Simon says:
no, we've self researched most of them
Simon says:
except CS obviously
casey j says:
i thought we were getting calendar and math so we could provide you with currency
Simon says:
math 250, calender 350 for currency 400?
casey j says:
this is the most complicated trade in the history of civ
Simon says:
and then CS 800 for machinery 700
Whomp says:
Right tell me the bottom line
Simon says:
well i think that would mean you owe us a lot of beakers
Simon says:
basically we thought you'd already agreed to trade us machinery thus we continued with the deal with innovia for CS and med for machinery and calender
Simon says:
now it appears we were mistaken or there was confusion or something which means your not going to be trading us machinery
Simon says:
thus we will have to self research it to fulfill our agreement with innovia
casey j says:
no we just have to vote on it
casey j says:
so we need to get some clarity
Simon says:
indeed, we obviously want to trade with you as epsilon is a problem that needs to be dealt with and one way of doing so is beating them tech wise
Whomp says:
right so then how far behind are we in techs if this deal goes down
Whomp says:
the reality is we have the biggest threat from epsilon
Simon says:
erm, well if just the machinery one went down
Simon says:
you'd have currency
Simon says:
whilst we would have calender, monarchy and math
casey j says:
if we trade med and machinery, for CS, and math and calendar, then provide you with currency wehn our trade with epsilon goes through, how much do we owe you? and how do we make that up?
Simon says:
well we are already getting med from innovia now
Simon says:
but without giving us currency thats about 700 beakers
Simon says:
then with currency thats 300 beakers you owe us
casey j says:
how do we make that up?
Simon says:
you could research construction?
Simon says:
thats 350 beakers
Whomp says:
how did we get get behind when our GNP is what it is?
Simon says:
which'd then leave us about 50 beakers in your debt
Whomp says:
it has to be your trades with innovia
Simon says:
but then we could gift you them techs now in compensation of that?
Simon says:
which would be quite a large good faith agreement if you think about it
Simon says:
we have traded with innovia yes
Simon says:
our only tech though that wasnt traded with innovia from that list is civil service iirc
Simon says:
we also have literature (but i think you already have that)
Whomp says:
so that's why we're behind
Whomp says:
so we need to trade with epsilon to keep pace
Whomp says:
that's what i'm hearing
Simon says:
if thats what you choose to do, i just offered you a perfectly good way of not doing that
Simon says:
as once you achieve tech parity you'll be able to trade with us and innovia more easily
Whomp says:
Well if we owe beakers it's the only way
Simon says:
especially as in theory you could achieve tech parity next turn whilst we have to wait for you to give us machinery, currency and construction
Whomp says:
Cane do you follow this?
Whomp says:
I'm old and decreipt so....
Simon says:
basically what im proposing is this
Simon says:
(in the grand scheme of things basically) we give you CS, math and calender.........you give us machinery, currency and construction
Simon says:
that leaves you only monarchy short
Whomp says:
One thing we need too
Simon says:
well we can change calender for monarchy if you want?
Simon says:
but then it means we owe you a few more beakers
casey j says:
so if we agree are you sending all 3 techs this turn?
casey j says:
this upcoming turn i mean
Simon says:
well, id have to see what everyone else thinks
Simon says:
but we could agree to sending all 3
Simon says:
or we could agree to sending 2 now and then the 3rd when you've completed machinery and we just have to wait on construction?
casey j says:
i think we would need all three next turn
Whomp says:
if you send all three we may be able to manipulate Epsilon's deal better
casey j says:
to proceed on that path
Simon says:
how would that make a difference?
casey j says:
1) get currency from epsilon- we need math, calendar
casey j says:
2) CS will get us to construction sooner with increased beakers
casey j says:
3) everyone benefits
Simon says:
4)we end up giving you a load of techs which will bring you up to tech parity and then you might turn around and side with epsilon
casey j says:
HA
Simon says:
thats what we have to worry about
casey j says:
i assure you that is not going to happen
casey j says:
Whomp?
Simon says:
if we give you math and calender, how soon can we have currency?
casey j says:
soon as we trade it to epsilon
casey j says:
2 turns i guess
casey j says:
more gold via trade routes for us both
Simon says:
didnt epsilon agree to a 20% discount on techs with you?
Whomp says:
They've made that offer and we'd prefer to never use it
casey j says:
yes we can manipulate that
Simon says:
so why would you be giving them pretty much 500 beakers for a 400 beaker tech?
casey j says:
no they have math
casey j says:
and currency
casey j says:
calendar is 350 vs. currency 400 right?
Simon says:
yep
Simon says:
but you said before
casey j says:
1) get currency from epsilon- we need math, calendar
casey j says:
we need math, to open up calendar, we cant get calendar w/o math
casey j says:
receive calendar i mean
Simon says:
ah ok my apologies my mistake
casey j says:
in the end, everyone will be up machinery on Epsilon. what are you and innovia going to research while we provide construction?
Simon says:
hmmm how far away from machinery are you?
casey j says:
I dont know
casey j says:
since we will have an anarchy for CS
Simon says:
do you know how far away right now?
casey j says:
let me dig that up
casey j says:
or if whomp can open up the save that would work too
Whomp says:
i'm not aware either
Whomp says:
should i open a save?
Simon says:
do you not have a turn tracker thread or something?
casey j says:
i dont know, the bottom line is it wont be over 7-10 turns
casey j says:
i dont know how big of a boost we will get due to bureau
Simon says:
ah ok, then with construction thats another 7-10 turns
Simon says:
by that time we shall probably have philosophy and music
casey j says:
are you on philosophy now?
Simon says:
in a way
casey j says:
using a GS?
Simon says:
think thats the plan
Simon says:
though we may set up an acadamy
Whomp says:
brb
casey j says:
i thought you guys had a religion already
Simon says:
nope
casey j says:
ah ok, well maybe we can do construction and go on the bottom path. how soon are you popping your GS? you might be able to use him for optics

Simon just sent you a Nudge!

Simon says:
sorry about that
casey j says:
and open up guilds
casey j says:
heh
Simon says:
i think the team was fairly set on philosophy
Simon says:
but we're generally sticking ot the top of the tree
Simon says:
we could pursuade innovia to go down the middle?
casey j says:
maybe i meant feudalism before, merchants can be used on Guilds
casey j says:
but no iron i forgot
casey j says:
so no knights
Simon says:
you could always travel the merchant and use the money to do a mass upgrade of axes to rush epsilon with?
casey j says:
i thought of that, but i dont know if we are positioned to do that effectively. we want to kill them off
Simon says:
*shrug* anyways friends are coming over now so im going to have to head off
Simon says:
speak to you asap about that deal
Simon says:
if you find the techs sent with no message from me just accept
Simon says:
have a good evenin gents
Whomp says:
bye simon
casey j says:
you too simon
Whomp says:
we'll post this

Simon has left the conversation.

Whomp says:
want me to copy?
casey j says:
sure
Whomp says:
or is there more before i entered?
casey j says:
no we just talked about using maces, and that they can be built with copper
Whomp says:
ok i'll spoiler it
casey j says:
good deal
casey j says:
we can get construction from epsilon if we send them machinery im sure
casey j says:
that is really partnering up with them
Whomp says:
yep
Whomp says:
it might be better for us in the long run
casey j says:
yeah
casey j says:
we would have to let them in on our plans more
Whomp says:
yep
casey j says:
but they have been pretty forthright, even though i dont trust them too much
Whomp says:
the thing about epsilon is they've really tried to be comfy with us
Whomp says:
the fear is they're such a strong team
casey j says:
true. we could expand with impunity and just play builder for a while if there is no threat of war with epsilon
casey j says:
but post this and we will see what everyone thinks


'Cane and I in a sidebar....

casey j says:
what do you think of all this
Whomp says:
it's confusing
Whomp says:
civ4 freaks me out on the tech tree
casey j says:
its a bunch of , they made it way confusing in an attempt to screw us
casey j says:
but we are between a rock and a hard place, make buddies with them or epsilon
Whomp says:
maybe we should partner with epsilon
casey j says:
yeah its looking that way
Whomp says:
it's obvious to me they have a stronger relationship with innovia

Tubby Rower
Jan 15, 2007, 11:10 AM
It sounds to me as though they expect to be able to trade with both Innovia and us at full tech value, but then have already traded some. So why not just say screw you guys, I'm going home.

We need to find Innovia and possibly Loco and trade with them directly.

EDIT:: and they expect to get Philosophy and get the free tech which no doubt they will hold for full trade value. More wood for the fire growing toward the Hula Girls

killercane
Jan 15, 2007, 11:26 AM
What about long term partnership with Epsilon?

Tubby Rower
Jan 15, 2007, 11:34 AM
it would be hard to swallow, but now I'm almost open to it :lol:

Conroe
Jan 15, 2007, 01:27 PM
It's a shame that Simon did not answer Killercane's question about how close they are to popping a GS. :sad: They did say that they are about 7-10 turns away from philo -- we've got 8 turns until our GS pops.

I'm not sure if we can speed it up by taking their CoL "gift" and swapping to Caste System. I need to load up the previous save and run some numbers. The problem is TC is only size 3 ...

Simon says:
and then CS 800 for machinery 700:confused: And what is with the beaker cost differences? Epsilon showed CoL as 350 beakers where we show it as 500. And both of these techs that Simon mentions we are showing at over 1000 beakers.

Conroe
Jan 15, 2007, 01:48 PM
Switching to Caste System will only save us 1 turn ... Mainly because we lose a turn in revolt and TC only has 1 extra pop with which to work with ...

Here are my calcs, in case anyone wants to check my work ...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/62616/mtdg_GScalc.jpg

killercane
Jan 15, 2007, 02:15 PM
Can we revolt to Bureaucracy and Caste System or will that last 2 turns on Epic speed? I agree time is of the essence on this Philo deal.

Conroe
Jan 15, 2007, 02:23 PM
casey j says:
i dont know, the bottom line is it wont be over 7-10 turns
Simon says:
ah ok, then with construction thats another 7-10 turns
Simon says:
by that time we shall probably have philosophy and music

There are two ways to interpret this: they will have philo and music in 7-10 turns OR in 14-20 turns. Considering who we are dealing with, I'm not really sure which it is ...

Simon says:
(in the grand scheme of things basically) we give you CS, math and calender.........you give us machinery, currency and construction
Simon says:
that leaves you only monarchy shortThree techs that we don't have in exchange for 3 other techs that we don't have? :undecide: I'm not sure I like where this deal is heading ...

What about long term partnership with Epsilon?Exploring this possibility for a moment, we know we can get CS on our own fairly shortly. Another 7 turns gets us Machinery. What if we offer Epsilon Machinery for Math, Monarchy, and Currency? We then turn around and see if Aloha is interested in a Currency<-->Calendar+gold deal.

By partnering with Epsilon, we can gain tech parity with them fairly shortly. We would be up Calendar and Philo on them where they will be up Lit, Music, and Construction on us. But, there is that whole mis-trust issue ...

Conroe
Jan 15, 2007, 04:09 PM
:bump:

Alrighty, I've been doing some digging in this thread to try and figure out how Aloha thought we had a deal. What I came up with is repeated references to "let me see what the team thinks" or somesuch words said by KillerCane. It seems rather cut and dried to me that this deal was NOT set in stone.

I also came across this interesting tidbit:I also asked BCLG to send CoL as a freebie to us since we are so close to researching it, and that we could send meditation as a good will payment on math, calendar and the like. We cant get math before we lightbulb CS I think, as it will then lightbulb currency.The more I think about it, I am inclined to accept their CoL trade. Would love some input from the team on this ...

BTW, we are a couple of hours past the save deadline. :shifty:

killercane
Jan 15, 2007, 07:23 PM
Lets just accept it so we dont hold the game up. We will try to rook them with the philo gambit.

Whomp
Jan 15, 2007, 08:56 PM
Agreed .

Sweetacshon
Jan 15, 2007, 09:47 PM
Yep, it is worth a shot.

pindicator
Jan 16, 2007, 12:09 AM
Lets just accept it so we dont hold the game up. We will try to rook them with the philo gambit.

I love this team. :love: So glad I joined.

I need to start helping more

Tubby Rower
Jan 16, 2007, 06:10 AM
killer those were my thoughts too but I thought that they were too risque so I decided to keep my mouth shut since I am now a proponent of isolationalism

Conroe
Jan 16, 2007, 10:38 AM
I don't mean to be a stick in the mud here, but ... The save is probably going to be back in our hands by the end of the day. Isolationism is fine when you are the tech leader, but not so cool when you're the tech laggerd. Have we decided on who we are going to partner with?