In your opinion, what is the most important great wonder you can build? I can't decide between Sun Tzu's Art of War or Smith's Trading Company. They're both so useful.

I try to grab leo's workshops almost every game.

But I go straight for hoover dam EVERY GAME. So I say hooverdam.

hmm. Well, the best wonder to have is pyramids, because it drives growth. Building it is usually a bad idea, though.

I might go with Statue of Zeus - not expensive, and Ancient Cavalry kick ass until muskets, and are still useful even then. Smiths' is nice but you are probably only saving 50 or so GPT. Sun Tzu's or Leo's both kick ass.

Hoover Dam is outstandingly useful for the later game.

And if there is one wonder you must build (if the game goes that far), it's the UN - either to win the game or to block one of the AI from winning it. There are cases where it doesn't matter, but still..

I dont like to build wonders I usually end up disapointed with the result. Better to build troops and take them. If I get a leader I might rush Sun Tzu's or Temple of artemis, but even then its better to build an army most times.

I akways go for theory of evolution.

Those 2 free techs are a game saver.

Right. ToE-Hoover can't be beat.

I might go with Statue of Zeus - not expensive, and Ancient Cavalry kick ass until muskets, and are still useful even then.I always build this one if I can. An AC is roughly equal to a knight. An extra HP is roughly equal to an extra strength point. Only 200 shields, and you'll get at least 15 or 20 before it goes obsolete. Amazing return on your investment.

I dont like to build wonders I usually end up disapointed with the result. Better to build troops and take them. If I get a leader I might rush Sun Tzu's or Temple of artemis, but even then its better to build an army most times.

The one time I built the Temple of Artemis, it put temples in all of my city, but once it became obsolete, it actually removed all of those free temples. =\ I generally avoid building it ever since that dilemma.

I dont like to build wonders I usually end up disapointed with the result. Better to build troops and take them. If I get a leader I might rush Sun Tzu's or Temple of artemis, but even then its better to build an army most times.A leader can't rush Artemis. Leaders only rush in vanilla and ToA is only in C3C. Your best early rush, by far, is the Pyramids. In the early ME, Leo's is better. But Suns is certainly not bad.

^^^ An SGL could rush Artemis, but I agree with you, I would definitely use that SGL on the Pyramids.

Forgot that. I never play with SGLs. On continents, the GLight can be a better choice.

Maybe, if you're on an island.

I always grab Knights Templar & Statue of Zeus for my war mongering games.

For building games, I usually go with Pyramids right off the bat as well as the Colosuss[spelling?]. On continent games I'll usually grab the Lighthouse as well to start trading quicker.

No wonder is very important.

ToE is the most important one that can be built in most DG+ games. Other wonders really aren't worth it, except the Great Library in certain cases.

My vote goes to ToE, with GL slightly behind.

I love the Theory of Evolution and the Great Library. The tech lead they can create is great. Because, i would be much happier having a two tech lead and maybe some more technologically advanced units as oppposed to unique units, I.E. AC or Crusaders. Sorry but knights beat ancient calvary hands down.

@Reeves

The Great Library, by definition, cannot give a tech lead.

And you are wrong about knights vs ACs too. Against a spear fortified on grass (a common case), the AC is actually slighter better. In some other cases the knight will be the one which is marginally superior, but they are pretty much equivalent.

TGL is 400 shields. SoZ is 200. One requires that you devote your entire strategy in getting it. One requires only ivory.

Theory of Evolution. It is the one wonder I always make sure I get.

Twenty (or more) knights for 200 shields is an amazing deal, and the first ones come out long before chivalry. The real cost is sacrificing REX. You can have seven horses for the same price. Well... you have to build a barracks first. With the SoZ you build it afterwards so the difference is more like six. Or five and a settler.

for me, it has to be Hoovers. note, as a newb, i've never made been able to build tanks before winning the game, so i don't know if there is anything else i would really need. and because of this, i've been ahead in tech so i haven't needed to build ToE.

It depends on level, map and victory condition. But contendors for most important wonder are GLib, GLh, Leo's (with dis- and reconnect), ToE and of course the UN.

@And you are wrong about knights vs ACs too. Against a spear fortified on grass (a common case), the AC is actually slighter better. In some other cases the knight will be the one which is marginally superior, but they are pretty much equivalent.

Hmm. The Civ3 Combat calculator (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/combatcalc.php) gives the vet AC a 69.2% chance to win against a vet fortified spear on grass and the vet knight a 70.4% chance. Pretty much a wash however the knight is ever so slightly better in this case.

In reality, a knight is more often stuck facing a pike instead of a spear. The knight is only 49.3% likely to win that one. That's why ACs seem so much more powerful. They dominate the most common defender of the era.

Pyramids. You dont have to build it to get its great effect.
Theory of Evolution is a close second though, 2 free techs is no joke. :scan:

to abegweit, you are quite right in saying that TGL cannot give any sort of tech lead. However, becuase the AI's aim for governments which can be expensive techs i can focus on "lesser" techs such as construction or currency and not have to focus on getting a better government.

Now, maybe the despotism- monarchy switch is more important on higher levels, but this strategy has allowed a 3-4 tech lead in regent and monarchy games.

As to the devotion of strategy, i put my secondary city on the pyramids or palace and then switch to great library when it becomes available. I usually go directly to literature because i usually play as the Greeks and the libraries are cheap and easy scientific and cultural bonuses.

you seem to have a good point gunk. I may just be biased against AC because i can never get them. I still stand by my wonders however

Hmm. The Civ3 Combat calculator (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/combatcalc.php) gives the vet AC a 69.2% chance to win against a vet fortified spear on grass and the vet knight a 70.4% chance. Pretty much a wash however the knight is ever so slightly better in this case.I was using Bomber Escort's calculator (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=75765&highlight=combat+calculator) to come up with that little factoid. It seems to me to be better. For one thing, the other one doesn't even consider the possibility of retreat. I was also assuming vet against reg, which I doubt you did judging from the results you got. BE's gives (win-lose-retreat) 80.1-10.8-9.1 for the AC and 79.4-10.0-9.6 for the knight.

In reality, a knight is more often stuck facing a pike instead of a spear. The knight is only 49.3% likely to win that one.BE gives 62.8-18.8-18.4 for this compared to 62.1-20.8-17.1 for the AC. Of course, the pike is also more likely to be a vet. In general, the tougher the defender, the better the knight looks, but the difference is certainly marginal in all cases.

The biggest difference is in armies. The knight gets an attack of six while the AC only gets four. This more than makes up for the difference in HP (13-15 vs 16-18). If you like, you can wait until knights to fill up your AC-generated armies. I have one in my current game. :devil: Of course, it was actually generated by an archer and the reason I'm waiting is shipability. The small difference between knight armies and AC armies isn't really worth waiting for.

theory of evolution/hoover dam

i always make sure that when TOE is finished, i start researching a new tech, basically giving me three techs in one turn. the one i finished researching and the two from TOE. and i generally go for the two techs that allow me to build hoover dam. i forgot what those are!

i like this combo since once you finish TOe you can start building hoover dam ASAP. two extra techs and then a boost in production...cant beat it.

Ansar - my problem with Pyramids is when it gets built on another continent, it really won't help the cities I really want it to, which brings it back to Lord Emsworth comment that it depends (in this case, on map type and personal style of play). Based upon all the War Academy advice, I will not build the Pyramids myself, but I find I must have Hoovers.

None are must-haves. ;)

An interesting variant for new players is to deliberately not build any Great Wonders. That way they learn how to play the game without depending on any particular "crutch".

That said, I like to get TOE, Hoover, and the UN, in particular, if only to deny them to the AI.

ToE. Reasoning is that by that stage you have enough production to build in approx 10 turns, it gives you 2 of the most expensive techs in the era (when used correctly) and provides you with a large head start towards Hoovers. And Hoovers has triggered my GA at least 3 times (all as Iroquois, amazingly).

Padma - agreed, none are "must haves" meaning i could win certainly win without it/them. but i really think hoovers can be more of a game breaker. i guess the true test - if you were playing agianst another human, which would you least want them to get?

Well, it'd be a huge pain in the ass if a human got his/her hands on the Great Wall...

for me, it has to be Hoovers. note, as a newb, i've never made been able to build tanks before winning the game, so i don't know if there is anything else i would really need. and because of this, i've been ahead in tech so i haven't needed to build ToE. ToE can give you Hoover's faster so I'd rather have ToE. ;)

Against humans the only wonder people negotiate before a game is SoZ because AC's are so overpowering.

Against humans the only wonder people negotiate before a game is SoZ because AC's are so overpowering.
I like trading with the AI for their ivory, then build the Statue of Zeus, and I am the one with Ancient Cavalry. :p

Sun Tzu

And if i get to the industrial age: Theory of Evolution + Hoover Dam

The wonders I go for:

Ancient Times:
The Pyramids

I'm good with science, not a fan of navy, and I usually build my own army as a warmonger. Besides, I rarely get ivory anyways.

Middle Ages:
San Zu's Art of War
Sistine Chapel
Trading Company
The Sci wonders (same city)

I like barracks even when I'm peaceful. I hate moving my entire army to a city with barracks to upgrade. Leo's is for poor warmongers, but I'm so darn rich by this time anyways. I can't stand using the lux slider, so I use Sistine Chapel. +6 Content faces rocks. I don't like paying for my banks (and later stock exchanges). I top it all off with the sci wonders in the same city for some mega beakers.

Indursty Age:
Theroy of evolution
Hoover Dam

Every one knows why these two. I don't need suffrage, as I am either a builder by now, or in a non-WW goverment. Of course, I usually get it anyway, because I'm ahead in tech here.

Modern Day:
The United Nations
The Internet
SETI Program (same city as before)

The U.N. to... WIN THE GAME! If I've been bad this game (very mad A.I.s), then I'll get the internet and SETI to boost my sci to get the space race techs. Cure for Cancer and Longevity are way to late in the game to help much.

note, as a newb, i've never made been able to build tanks before winning the game.

I've been able to build 1 tank before winning the game in 2183 AD.
EDIT: scratch that, I have at least 20 in my current game. :D Of course, I've seen AI tanks, as well as AI TOW and Mech Infantries.


Most Important wonders:

AA:
SoZ, Pyramids

MA:
Knights Templar, Sun Tzu's, Leo's, Smith's

IA:
ToE, Hoover's

Modern Times:
I've never been there. ;)

Everyone says Hoover and Evolution, so I always beeline for them. But my personal fave is Newton's University, which when coupled with Copericus, can easily get me a single city that pumps out 200 beakers a turn.

That said, the Templers are way awesome, too. If you ever get an army of Templers together, you have a city killer for the rest of the game. The only painful part is having to wait five whole turns between each new Crusader being generated.

Ancient Cavs haven't ever been a problem for me. At least up to Monarch level, the AIs really don't know how to use them effectively and I have no problem holding them off.

Everybody says ToE and Hoover's because they're good. If you do Age-specific what the best wonders are, like me and Wario did, you have to do them since the Universal Suffrage is useless (pretty much)

For the modern age, if the game goes that far--the UN is a must.
For the industrial age, Darwin--my favorite combo is to use Darwin to get Atomics/Electronics, then build Hoover.
For the medieval age, Leonardo's is good because nothing else can do what it does, unlike Sun Tzu (just build rax). Smith's is also nice.
For the ancient age, there is really no must-have wonder--in most of my games on higher levels, I go without.

If you plan for a domination of a conquest where you capture enemy citys you should always build Sun Tsu's Art of War. That way when you capture a city your units can heal in just one turn and move to another city. Perfect for Blitzerkreig wars. Totally useless when on an island

Not to derail the thread, but why do so many people like Hoover's? Coal plants usually only take 4-5 turns to build anyway. It does save you upkeep, but it couldn't be more than 40-50 gold max on a standard sized map, which is nice but not game breaking. This is on emperor-deity. Does it help more on other difficulty levels?

Anyway, my favorite has got to be ToE if I can get it. If you get it before the AI you have a solid tech lead and a head start towards the MA to get a space ship win or domination.

It saves the time and effort of building the Coal Plants, which you could use to build tanks/artillery.

Not to derail the thread, but why do so many people like Hoover's? Coal plants usually only take 4-5 turns to build anyway. It does save you upkeep, but it couldn't be more than 40-50 gold max on a standard sized map, which is nice but not game breaking. This is on emperor-deity. Does it help more on other difficulty levels?

Anyway, my favorite has got to be ToE if I can get it. If you get it before the AI you have a solid tech lead and a head start towards the MA to get a space ship win or domination.
You don't have to clean up all the pollution the coal plants spew, and they are free.

Yeah, what Little Corporal and azzaman said.

Not to derail the thread, but why do so many people like Hoover's? Coal plants usually only take 4-5 turns to build anyway. It does save you upkeep, but it couldn't be more than 40-50 gold max on a standard sized map, which is nice but not game breaking. This is on emperor-deity. Does it help more on other difficulty levels?


I would agree. Hoover is way overrated. As are factories. Two, maybe three, are enough 95% of the time. And for those two, three factories you could build the power plants yourself anytime. You could even make them hydro plants, if you are extra generous.

I would agree. Hoover is way overrated. As are factories. Two, maybe three, are enough 95% of the time. And for those two, three factories you could build the power plants yourself anytime. You could even make them hydro plants, if you are extra generous.


Factorys are over-rated? That's not true at all. You gain a huge production boost from them. I build them in every city in my core. If you only build 3 factorys, hoovers is a waste of time. But when you have 20 factories, its a big deal.

Factorys are over-rated? That's not true at all. You gain a huge production boost from them.


Is the production boost enough to make up for the 240 shields that you have to invest beforehand? In most cases, it just isn't. 240 shields are 3 cavs if you handbuild. 8 if you dis- and reconnect your resources (needs cash for the upgrade though).

Depends on the kind of game you are playing I suppose. Because +25 shields for 125 turns is worth a heck of alot more than 240 spent on cavs. It also allows you to build buildings faster later in the game, like research labs and stock exchanges.

Also a thing to note about hoover dam, is it puts hydro plants into all cities, even those without access to water. So it's not true that you can just hand build hydroplants in the cities that need them. You need a river to build a hydro. But hooverdam overrides that. Also building the hoover damn, automatically increases the effect of every factory you have yet to build. Because now, as soon as a factory goes up, it's going to have the effect of a hydroplant right away.

Depends on the kind of game you are playing I suppose. Because +25 shields for 125 turns is worth a heck of alot more than 240 spent on cavs. It also allows you to build buildings faster later in the game, like research labs and stock exchanges.Don't build factories until you are finished building cavs. That advice goes for every other building except granaries, barracks, aqueducts and harbours. You're right that factories can help to build modern era stuff but that's mainly for space parts, which is why you don't need many.

Is the production boost enough to make up for the 240 shields that you have to invest beforehand? In most cases, it just isn't. 240 shields are 3 cavs if you handbuild. 8 if you dis- and reconnect your resources (needs cash for the upgrade though).


I don't disconnect and re-connect resources cause i think its exploitive, and I would much rather have a factory than 3 cavs. Once i build my factorys I can build those cavalry much faster than I could before.

I don't disconnect and re-connect resources cause i think its exploitive, and I would much rather have a factory than 3 cavs. Once i build my factorys I can build those cavalry much faster than I could before.


I thought you didn't want cavs. :p

I thought you didn't want cavs. :p


Well, I'd rather have a factory and cavs then just cavs

Depends on the kind of game you are playing I suppose. Because +25 shields for 125 turns is worth a heck of alot more than 240 spent on cavs. It also allows you to build buildings faster later in the game, like research labs and stock exchanges.


Well, I don't know. Trading off 10 factories in order to get 30 (additional) cavs may just be what is needed to make any further investment in miliary moot.


Well, I'd rather have a factory and cavs then just cavs


Do as you wish. I will take just the cavs (fighting muskets/rifles) over factories, cavs (fighting rifles/ infantries) and pollution almost any time.

I don't disconnect and re-connect resources cause i think its exploitive, and I would much rather have a factory than 3 cavs. Once i build my factorys I can build those cavalry much faster than I could before.The cost is more like five cavs. It's at least that many before you start making a profit on your money. Furthermore, you have those first three NOW, not 240 shields later.

Well, I don't know. Trading off 10 factories in order to get 30 (additional) cavs may just be what is needed to make any further investment in miliary moot.





Do as you wish. I will take just the cavs (fighting muskets/rifles) over factories, cavs (fighting rifles/ infantries) and pollution almost any time.


I'm not really a cavalry guy anyway, I like tanks better-and you need factories for tanks.

I'm not really a cavalry guy anyway, I like tanks better-and you need factories for tanks.


That is a decent point in favor of (a few at least) factories. Although, if you have plenty of good cities you can prebuild your tanks (colosseums are good for that) and have the first batch ready right when Motorized Transportation comes in, with or without factories.

who is spending 240 shields on a factory? At least in the first few cities, I disband something useless then cash rush them. Do the same with the coal plant - I probably have at least 1 or 2 cities making 40 shields with rails and hospitals - double that with a factory and coal plant, and that's 1 turn cavalry.

Add in the iron works and it's a 1-turn tank.

who is spending 240 shields on a factory? At least in the first few cities, I disband something useless then cash rush them. Do the same with the coal plant - I probably have at least 1 or 2 cities making 40 shields with rails and hospitals - double that with a factory and coal plant, and that's 1 turn cavalry.


I usually have a lot of cities making 30+ shields (a horseman). And with spending the money on upgrades instead of too many factories I can have the troops (and more) ready before you even started producing them.

And what were hospitals again? :p

Add in the iron works and it's a 1-turn tank.


If I am that lucky (and it is still needed), I'd rather build my armies there. With factory and power plant.

What if you already built the military academy elsewhere? :p

Yeah I forgot all about the ability to cash rush them. Which makes them even more useful. Than those 240 shields are nothing. And you can easily make up all your time building cavalry super fast.

I was thinking for an expansion to this thread should also be, What is your favorite small wonder, if forced to choose? Granted, this may not carry the same weight as a Great Wonder because the other civs can't get the small wonders first and restrict you, but still, which one?

I would have to say wall street because of economical boost, definitely. Though, by the time you can get it, most of my financial issues are way in the past, say early Medieval Age.

I generally build all small wonders. I would say the FP is by far the most importiant. But I also value the military academy highly.

I build factories in most cities. If a city is producing 10 shields a turn- very low for early IA, the factory takes 24 turns so after 60 turns from the start of factory building you'll hve paid for it.

72*10=720 vs 15*48=720

So after 72 turns for a 10 shield city, its paid for, minus upkeep, which is minimal for the benefit.

For a 30 shield city-fairly standard grass city with RRs

24*30=720 and 16*45=720

So then after a mere 24 turns, the net increase is favorable.

The ratio is even better with Hoovers or even Coal Plants.

But on topic- GL and TOE/Hoover are my DG buildable favorites.

I like Simths, Sun Tsu Leos and SOZ. Templars doesn't cut it since Crusaders and Knights don't work well together, and Chivalry isn't worth it just for KT.

What if you already built the military academy elsewhere? :p
I have never built a military academy before factories(which come after you find coal) 400 shield armies take a very long time without a factory w/ power-plant.

Not to derail the thread, but why do so many people like Hoover's? Coal plants usually only take 4-5 turns to build anyway. It does save you upkeep, but it couldn't be more than 40-50 gold max on a standard sized map, which is nice but not game breaking. This is on emperor-deity. Does it help more on other difficulty levels?

Anyway, my favorite has got to be ToE if I can get it. If you get it before the AI you have a solid tech lead and a head start towards the MA to get a space ship win or domination.

Many of us use the ToE to get Hoover, by selecting atomics and electronics. Free hydro plants on the same continent are wonderful, plus they don't pollute, unlike coal plants.

Pangea: Pyramids
'pelogo: GLHouse
Continents: can I have both of the above please?