Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 2 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4354542) for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

This game will be played in Civ4, patched to v1.61.

You are cast in the role of Tokugawa, mighty leader of the Japanese. Tokugawa's brother has left the island city of Kyoto to avenge the death of his wife and only son. He has travelled to a distant land without finding their murderer. So the brother of Tokugawa will settle and found a new Japanese colony, and the Japanese have sworn to conquer the rest of civilization in order to hunt down and destroy their enemy.

The game is on a Standard size fractal map, modified as only Gyathaar knows how, at Epic speed. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the fastest teams to achieve a Conquest victory. The number of AI rivals has not yet been revealed. It will be played using version 1.61 of Civ4 with locked modified assets.

Individual start files for all teams will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of August 8th.

Here's the start position.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/SGOTM02_start.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Tokugawa of Japan
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Fractal, hand modified
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - YES!
Barbarians - Raging!!

Please visit the following link to ensure that you are adequately prepared:
Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439)

Notes:

A. ONLY Civilization IV v1.61 is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - victory will be awarded for the fastest victory by Conquest.

C. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

I'm sure you'll enjoy this game :D

Hohoho... checking in.

Tokugawa... eeeek. Not my favorite. But Monarch, Fractal and epic are all things that this group should be quite familiar with. Raging barbs is going to be fun especially when coupled with AI agression. Anybody know much about agressive AI's?

We will need to select a team leader for this one. I'm not putting my hand up this time as I've got a lot going on in my RL (new baby) and can't devote the required attention. If I had to nominate someone I'd suggest sooooo for this job.

EDIT: Double Post.

About the starting position. Here's my initial thoughts.

Kyoto is already settled and is working on a work boat. Seems like the best option to me as this city is going to need 4 of them, a granary and a lighthouse to work all the cells properly. It will have to utilise the whip a lot but food won't be a problem. Happiness will limit this place and once that's in control it's going to be a huge city. I'll defer to others but isn't this a great choice for the national epic city?

The first 2 workboats should go to the fish as they give more food IIRC.

Note that the cell production indicates that there is land the the northwest and east of Kyoto that will not be accessible by galleys under the borders pop.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM2/StartingMoves.jpg

I think we need to move the warrior onto the hill at B to show us what else is out there. I'd prefer to settle on A as it will get the fish and rice but we've got raging barbs and agressive AI and I'm thinking that B would be a safer option to get the defense of the hill. That can be very useful against raging barbs. I would like the city to be coastal though as then it can get a trade route to the capital.

With this distance between our cities, what's going to happen to maintenance costs? I would think we are going to be suffering from high costs right from the start and wonder aloud would it be worth taking our settler and warrior and trying to get them to a position much closer to Kyoto? It would delay the settling of our 2nd city but may be worth it in saved costs that can go towards research. It looks like there is land to the East but I wonder how much closer to the capital we can get. We could also look for some happy resources like gold.

I think our first build in our mainland city will be a warrior. Worker with raging barbs is suicidal. Research should go immediately to bronze working for the whipping and axemen.

My 2c worth. This is going to be fun.

Some more thoughts and things to consider. Our UU is the samurai. This is conquest so we will want to get as much use from our Samurai's as we can. So a bee-line to the techs needed is one course of action.

They are a replacement for macemen so are perfectly suited to a CS slingshot. Last SGOTM we tempered our expectations and went for a subdued CoL slingshot. This time we should step it up and make it our goal to get CS. We will have to be ruthless and head straight for it but it will be complicated by having to defend ourselves against raging barbs. Kyoto might let us keep up a fast research pace but who's to say all the players haven't been given a similar leg-up to make it even.

Where ever we put our 2nd city, it's going to need some culture to expand it's borders. I am not used to settling a 2nd city so early and don't normally build cultural buildings for a while. It would mean that it may be best to settle the 2nd city adjacent or on resources to get them in faster. Best would be if we could find a nice hill on the coast to the East with some gold :D. Not asking for much right?

And I'll let someone else post now. Spammed enough in this thread for today :lol:

EDIT: Just need to add that the Samurai has one more requirement than the maceman in that you must have iron. Macemen need copper OR iron.

Signing in! Interesting start. Would start with mining then bronze working, and build work boats at both cities (assuming we settle the A spot). Even with raging barbs I think we'll have time to build a work boat before warrior.

Longer term the colossus could be good for us so instead of a CS slingshot is an oracle machinery slingshot viable? Never done that before but it gets us crossbowmen pretty early and is a pre-req for the samurai. I'll test a few monarch games to see if it's possible.

Random thoughts so high levels of :smoke: detection required.

Moving settler to reduce maintenance. As this is Monarch I wouldn't sweat over the maintenance of the 2nd city but just settle it in the best spot possible.

Research. The capital needs slavery as it will be completely :whipped: tastic as a site as soon as we get slavery which definitely points to Mining - BW as an early research path.

Slinghsots. I must admit I have gone "off" the CS Slinghsot just because it feels too much like a boring crutch nowadays (emotion not logic IYKWIM). So I would love to go for a Oracle - Metal Casting - Colossus line which also makes sense with our UU and capital.

Settler if we go for the Colossus then site A becomes very compelling for the settler unless the Warrior shows something very tasty from the top of the hill...

Early culture for 2nd City. As Kikinit says it needs border pop to work its best tiles so either Obelisk or do we hunt for an early religion? The capital is working 2 commerce tiles so will generate a good research rate but reduced for 2nd city Miantenace. Ummm Decisions

A. Mining - BW - Mysticism chop obelisk
B. Mysiticism - Polytheism - Mining - BW

B feels the right path if we are going for Oracle - Metal casting..

Raging Barbs. the quicker we reseacrh BW the quicker Barb Axemen appear. the real danger is we do BW early (as per A), no Copper in our BFC and we are a long way away from having another settler to pick up copper even if its nearby.... Again this leans me towards path B, I think this will still get us BW in time for the capital to really need it.

Team Captain. if got antyhing wrong last time it was not (in the later game) really definitely settling on a path and then sticking to it. For me the primary role of the captain will be ensuring we do reach a consensus after debate and stick to it.

Ralph

p.s Most importantly congratulations Kikinit :goodjob: :cheers:

HI! I'm in, though I'm in Norwey now and I don't have acces to Civ4 and restricted acces to the internet. But still I can give you some addvice and take a little part in the planing. Full 'compatibility' with the team I will have when I will come back to Poland, that will be something around the 15th of September.

Looking at the starting position I thing that we should...
...first, move the warrior to the hill (B) and look what will apear.
...second, if nothing interesting apears, move the settler to position A, and sea what will apear ;)
We should wait with the planing until we move our units, because we don't know what's behind the fog...

Because I don't have acces to Civ4, I would appreciate if someone will provide me with some details about the game; what techs we have, how long will it take, what can we build... etc...
Ofcourse I need only those information which are importand at the moment, not all of them :). That would give me an oportunity to take a part in the early stage of the game.

p.s. Don't rush the game to much ;P... I hope there will be some playing left when I'll be back home ;)
p.p.s. Congratulatioms Kikinit ( boy or a girl ? ).

Ugh, didn't realise our settler would not be founding our capital. Retract my statement about work-boat and go for a warrior instead.

Wonder if it's worth going Mysticism -> Polytheism first. We need mysticism anyway (obelisks). It would be a gamble to go for the early religion, but it may be worth it. I find on Monarch level if you don't start with Mysticism and go for Hinduism straight away you get the religion more times than you lose it. Capital will be working 2-0-2 plots too. Hmm.

EDIT: Oh, Ralph just said this. Maybe I should spend time reading the posts first?

Oh, errr, founding hinduism is probably a bad plan because we only have a 50-50 chance of it being founded in the town we want. Founding it in Kyoto would be rather bad.

Doesn't the religion nearly always go to the 2nd city when you have only 2?

Oh and thanks for the congrats guys. I though most of you gave your best wishes in the last SG but my head has been a bit foggy from lack of sleep over the last month. It's a girl to go with the little boy we've already got.

I must admit I have always found that a religion goes to your newest city but cant categorically state it as a rule.

Ralph

Checkin in

Haven't given this a lot of thoughts but just as a reminder, Toku is organized. Maintenance should not be a concern with this distance

I never had a religion found in my capital if a second city was already settled. I don't know the mechanism behind this though.

I think that we won't be able to trade any resources before our capital gets connected. And this may not be possible before astronomy. If no culture bridging is possible, we would need to build a palace early on

I am for a warrior first in second city. "A" look very production poor for me. I am guessing 2 hills in the fog east that we'll be loosing by going to "A". Sending warrior to B seems good option before any decision. Moving settler for 2 or 3 turns would not be a disaster. Don't think that coastal is necessary because we won't be able to connect to capital anyway

As blid mentioned, Toku's organised so that prompts me to list down all we know about him.

Traits:
Aggressive - Free Combat I promotion of melee and gunpowder units. Double production speed of Barracks and Drydock.
Organised - Civic upkeep reduced 50 percent. Double production speed of Lighthouse and Courthouse.

Starting Techs: Fishing and The Wheel.
UU: Samurai - replacement for maceman. Requires Civil Service and Machinery plus iron.

Checking in.

The conservative play with the settler would be to settle on the hill for the defensive bonus. We have raging barbs on and if we lose our foothold on the continent this game is going to be a whole lot of hitting enter.

On the other hand, the conservative play just means we're less likely to lose quickly, but won't help us win.

If we're making a run for Polytheism then we shouldn't settle right away, as maintenance costs will cut into our research rate. (I think, time to visit Worldbuilder!!)

I propose we run a test to see how long until animals start showing up on these settings. Use the second settler to scout a bit and make sure we get the city site we really want. Just make sure that we settle before Polytheism comes in.

Ask and you shall receive,

here is a worldbuilder for playing with that simulates our starting position, I have placed our settler on a big boring island so we can see Barbs spawning and also what happen with animals.

Screenshots form the save.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/sgoptm1.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/sgotm2.jpg

The settings should be the same as the SGOTM but worth checking

Note the lack of commerce in my screenshot iin the 4 corners outside of kyoto?

Well firstly the outer ring is showing 2 commerce not 1 because I forgot to make it an ocean (not important) but having played with worldbuilder the 1 commerce in the four corners mean there is land near those 4 corners probably 4 squares diagonally in each direction from Kyoto so we have other land nearby in all 4 directions.

You learn something new everyday

Ralph

Updated save

Hi, I will not be participating in these world-builder mock-ups of the start because I think they are against the spirit of the competition. I cringe when I read in the GOTM spoilers "I re-made the start in the world-builder and in my 20 trials I discovered strategy X is the best to get a CS slingshot". I don't mind playing a monarch game with raging barbs to see what's going on, but if you're going to recreate the exact start then you might as well "play" an excel spreadsheet instead of Civ 4.

Looks like we get about 8 turns before the animals show up (3760 BC).

Also, settling meant an immediate upkeep of 8 gpt. Not sure if the distance penalty will be different on the actual map, but it looks like my intuition was correct and settling right away will put a big crimp in our science. We may as well scout out for a few turns with our settler and look for gold or gems or something that means we can get our economy running.

Of course, they may have planted a few barbarians in the starting save right off the bat with the worldbuilder for all we know.

Sooooo, I get what you're saying and some people take it way too far, but the only things I wanted to know - how soon animals show up, and what kind of cost for maintenance founding a second distant city instantly, aren't even reliant upon the map features. We could have done the same thing with the all grassland map. I think you've seen me improvise enough in these games to know that I'm not likely to run 20 simulations!

OK, maybe it is worth exploring with the settler for 7 turns then. I think position A is decent enough. It has little production but should have enough food to make quick workers and settlers. Coastal is still useful even if we can't connect it to the capital. Would not like to settle the grass hill because it is 1 tile from the coast, so all the coastal tiles are wasted (no lighthouse).

Sooo,

Believe it or not :mischief: I agree with you!!! I hate to see Civ become a series of crutches or a spreadsheet exercise, I was just interested in answering Mike's question on how soon Barbs and Animals get nasty as I couldn't say as I spend too much time playing by feel :cool:

Of course I have to admit :blush: I was happy to learn something new when I worked out land near our starting capital of Kyoto but that probably just shows I dont know enough about the maths of civ4.

:beer:

Ralph

I'm going to play my broken record one last time for each team:


Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=180489) for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

Anything I post there will NOT be repeated individually in every team thread. You may even find some useful information there now :p

Errr OK, from the maintenence thread it looks like the second city will lose -7 GPT from maintenence. That's rather a lot.

Of course, for super style points we could disband our settler, whip the Angkor Wat in Kyoto and have priests build everything for us :lol:

I think that maintenance will mean we should definitely explore a bit with the settler to try and find that fabled gold mine near the coast to the east that is waiting for us.

Is it time for the fareast campaign ? :lol:

For those who have played S-01, remember what happened to poor england taking the whole barbs flow ? Raging barbs is nasty, even on monarch. So if this gold mines city (yes plural !!) was to be hidden behind a friendly civ that will protect us, get weakened from barbs so we can attack it later easily, it will be great :satan:

Lets move the warrior, and the settler first. I'm quite sure that we must explore with both of them at the beggining. It might be good to move toward our capitol city, along the coast ( using hills as much as possible ). But still during that exploration we should discuss every move ( so something like 1 turn each ;) ).

Not a bad idea about fast religion... But lets think for a few moments more.

The opening is for tomorrow. I guess we need to find a consensus

I can see the benefits of going for early religion. However, let's not act out an oracle slingshot from the beginning. Playing with raging barbs and aggressive AI, we may find ourselves building gazillion warriors to defend against hordes of barbs pillaging our improvements. It can also wreck our chances for early expansion if the map is crowded. I am not against it, but we should consider it carefully

@Rihiter : I think pausing every turn to discuss forward movement is a bit exagerated. IMO, going east and keeping to hills for max view is enough to give a guideline for whoever is going to start. We can set a point of discussion after the discovery of mysticism. We will need this tech for culture anyway, chasing hinduism or not. We would have enough material to discuss then

I think the ex-captain has nominated a new one who has many ooooos in his nickname :p He can propose a roster and a brave soul to feed our settler to wolves on a weedy move

I think the ex-captain has nominated a new one who has many ooooos in his nickname :p He can propose a roster and a brave soul to feed our settler to wolves on a weedy move

What? Huh? Must have missed that one.

*Goes back to read thread*

Oh yeah, so he did. OK, here's the roster:

Blid
Ralph Jackson
sooooo
Kikinit
Mike p

Latecomers:
Rihiter
ZerrorR

I suggest Blid plays for a long as he thinks is prudent. A good time may be when we have founded our city and finished Polytheism. Are we all agreed about that research path? If there is a tricky decision of where to found our city then he can post the save here and wait for input.

I trust Blid, but it would be fun to debate the merits of various settling positions before committing. I'd start by moving the settler west for two turns while sending the warrior east. Then if there's nothing especially tasty to the west, move the settler back east, nearer to our capital and let him catch up to the warrior before the time When Animals Attack (ie about turn 7-8).

We probably want to settle as late as possible since we're looking to found Hinduism. And we don't want to move too close to an AI capital because we'll get wiped out culturally, but you all know that.

I would not have settled anyway without reaching consensus. This is an important decision that should have the biggest influence on the outcome

Checking 2 turns west and getting the settler back on warrior level seems good idea

What treshold can we use to settle next city ? Capital grows to 2 ? We get mysticism ? Or an objective stated like this : settle second city when polytheism research would not be delayed by more than x turns. I could not find any info on how much monarch AIs research boost is (prince is 5%) to try to figure out what x we should use. Maybe a value of 5 or 6

Since I am opening, I can go until I think I have enough terrain info to discuss where to settle. Then I would go until hinduism is found (in Osaka or somewhere else). That should be a good point to discuss things further away

I'm glad sooooo has accepted his nomination. Since late in the last SGOTM I've been struggling to find as much time as I used to with RL (work and home commitments). I think sooooo has shown himself capable of leading well in his SG's.

Onto the game, I just hope that Gyathaar hasn't placed some tricky early barbs nearby to attack us. We have to remember that it's not just raging barbs we're up against here. We are also up against aggressive AI personalities. Do the AI get archery as a free tech at monarch? They may decide to attack us early if we're looking tempting.

I'd advocate settling on a hill for the defensive bonuses from the AI's that are sure to attack us as much as from the barbs. I wonder if we can find a way to get archery into our tech path if we are going to avoid bronze working for the oracle path.

We can discuss all this further as we learn a bit more of the map so I agree with going for the early religion as a way to keep our options open.

I got the save. Like already discussed, plan is :

- Start researching mysticism
- Explore with settler and warrior : settler makes 2 bits west then joins warrior on eastern front
- Play about 8-12 turns then stop and post save or screenshots to discuss city positioning. Stop after mysticism may be a good treshold

Can play tonight (GMT+2) or wait for tomorrow to let anyone not happy with this express himself

Feel free to play tonight Blid. Good luck and protect us from those bears!

Well, I was aching to play and since captain gave permission...

I used mike idea and sent the settler west. The warrior went to the hill (position A IIRC). Then, on turn 2 the settler found the coast. But for the warrior, going east on the coast was an impossible equation. It's either east inland or coastal north. I hesitate than decide to go to the hill south east for the extra view and I am glad I did. This is a disgusting location guys (red dot) :

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM2/turnset1/01-Turn2.jpg


gold, 2 gems (no jungle to chop), FP (another one was hidden), an oasis (another one was hidden), lot of river tiles, 3 hills. I can't imagine what gyathaar would do to compensate for this orgy

I also met Izzy coming from the east. She is quite close

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM2/turnset1/02-MeetTheFanatic.jpg


With us chasing an early religion, meeting this fanatic so early is a bad omen but I kept on the plan. Izzy was wandering with 2 scouts but I managed to pick a hut in the nose of one of them

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM2/turnset1/03-AHut.jpg


Gents, we have gold and can keep researching at 100% after we install the second city. :woohoo:
With maintenance costs at 8, we can go for almost 8 turns

I continued until I discovered mysticism (10 turns). Here is the global view of the world we know (the settler helped a good bit)

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM2/turnset1/04-GlobalView.jpg

The settler is standing next to the warrior in the north eastern peninsula. Izzy may be west of them in the fogged area

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM2/turnset1/05-SettlerAndWarrior.jpg

Oh, and of course, our capital expanded. Those lands Ralph has guessed are islands. We still don't know if the capital is reachable pre-astro or not. There is also land south-east according the tiles yields

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM2/turnset1/06-CapitalIsolated.jpg


Now back to city positioning, here's a dot map. Of course, there is red. But after a thought, I prefer brown. It is a bit less productive but has an oasis off the bat, gains a second oasis in BFC and also gives hill protection. We loose the fresh water health but we are seeing ship, fish, corn and rice close by ...

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM2/turnset1/07-DotMap.jpg


I also dotted some other potential positions if we want to split out red or brown potential (mega city) to more decent sites (mind they would stay above average). Dark has gold, 2 food and many river tiles. Makes for a super commerce city. Blue is coastal, has 2 food and gem. Green has 2 food, is coastal and has many river tiles. Silver sucks a bit with all the desert but can make a rhombus with dark, green and blue grabbing all the resources.

My vote goes for brown. With 2 oasis, we have unpillagable tiles earning us 2g3c each and we'll have an easier time defending. The position we are in is quite exposed if there are no immediate neighbours south. Ignoring archery and bronzeworking and going for pottery, priesthood and writing to achieve CS slingshot is suicidal IMO. But we can discuss techs later. Right now, I think we should keep on polytheism, get back the settler and warrior to red or brown and found city (once I get back there, we'd have enough money to finish poly at 100%)

EDIT : forgot to say that I posted the save so you can download and check closely. Also, I didn't met a single beast during those 10 turns

The fabled city location exists :D . I like the red dot, it's the favourite color of the Japanese. It'll get the gems in the inner ring and some food too although if we get a religion that won't be so important.

Thinking about it a bit though I think that the hill location might be better. As blid noted it will get the oasis cells that will let it grow at a decent pace with no improvements and if the barbarians start to come we may well need those cells when our improvemets have all been destroyed.

The settler and warrior had better start coming back to the city location. They will have to come together and hope that the warrior can protect the settler adequately.

I think you can argue just as easily for either spot. Brown spot looks better short term (oasis in 1st ring and on a hill for defense) but red spot is better long term (has an extra 2 hills). I wouldn't worry about overlap with the sheep+wheat city because black spot can be moved 2 tiles south. If we found a religion in our new city we shouldn't care about what's in the 1st ring or 2nd ring because our borders will pop in just 3 turns. Let's hope Izzy is living up to reputation and chasing Meditation, not Polytheism.

red has only 1 hill extra (the tile 1S of gold if forest/plains/hills) and has only one oasis.
Brown will have the extra hammer from the city tile and has access to 2 oasis

Go Brown. Won't the oasis give us a health bonus from fresh water if we found adjacent to it anyway?

Ideally we wait to settle until there are 8-9 turns left on Polytheism. We'll probably be 8 maintenance per turn, but will pick up 3 beakers from working the oasis. We want to max out science and found Hinduism in our second city, which should secure it culturally speaking. As long as we can run max science, a second city will speed our research, but as soon as we run out of gold, it becomes a drag.

First thing, somehow a bit expected, Buddhism is founded. I wonder who have done that :rolleyes:

Osaka is brown city in 3480 BC. Izzy sent her scouts (both of them :eek: ) to witness this glorious moment.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM2/turnSet2/01-OsakaIsFounded.jpg


Now seriously, scouts are supposed to scout. They've been wandering around all my turnset. There is a high chance we are blocked in a small continent with Izzy.

Osaka starts a warrior and works the oasis. Size 2 and warrior due in 11 turns.
Founding Osaka drops poly from 8 to 6. It had already dropped from 10 to 9 when Kyoto grew to size 2. So, it seems like I overdid it with exploration on my first round since we could have settled 2 turns earlier and finish polytheism on the same year. Well, speaking about polytheism ...

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM2/turnSet2/02-Hinduism.jpg


You are witnessing the premises of a buddhism/hinduism clash gents !

Once his escort mission finished, the warrior went back to complete the peninsula inspection. We don't find Izzy but we find the equator, jungle and sugar

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM2/turnSet2/03-Equator.jpg


Capital finished a workboat and started another. It will grow to health limit in 4 turns.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f191/blidblid/SGOTM2/turnSet2/04-Kyoto.jpg


Maybe the next workboat should hook the crab. This is one less food than the fish but the health point will make for it and we'll have 2 resources in place of one. When will the capital share it with the other cities is another matter ...

As for what comes next, here's what I think (Up for discussion, I'd be glad to hear other scenarios) : we managed to get a great spot for Osaka. But we need to use those resources if we really want to take advantage from the spot. For me this means archers.
First, we can manage an 80% research slider once Osaka gets to size 2 and Kyoto to size 3. With 80%, mining->BW takes 28 turns. hunting->archery takes 16 turns. With BW, if there is no copper in BFC, we'll have to make a settler, build another city and connect roads. IMO, this is too risky since we are exposed to barbs and they are raging. Here's my scenario :
research : hunting (6)->archery(10)->mining(8)
capital : workboat->workboat->... (when at happiness limit, we can send one scout around)
Osaka : complete warrior (5 turns) and city size 2 works second oasis (check this as governor will surely work forest for hammers)->worker (EDIT : 23 turns15 turns) ->archer (can make it quickly by switching from oasis to forest hills)

The worker would make pre-improvements and hide if trouble around until archer is out

The explorer warrior from the north should go down and help secure the city with the one due in 5 turns. There is no barb in sight but in the case of one appearing, switch to the forest hill and you'll have the warrior in time to defend Osaka. Making one of the warriors get the medic promotion would be nice

save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG002_BC3280_01.Civ4SavedGame)

Excellent. That's a great start Blid. I figured we'd probably snag Hinduism, but there was a chance we'd miss.

I agree that Archery and then mining should be our next priorities, to help protect Osaka. BW after that so we can start pop rushing the capital, then maybe Sailing.

Please get that warrior into our capital and enjoying the 25% fortified bonus. Raging barbs will test us if we're not careful. I played the realm's beyond deity raging barbs game (didn't report it) and it was a lesson in defenses against barbs. Can't see us getting that rage here but I expect we may have waves of 2 maybe 3 barbs coming at once. We should explore a bit more around us and think about where to post fog-busters.

I guess I'm going to be Mr. Conservative for the start here and say archery should be our next priority as we'll need archers to protect our mines on the gems and gold when we get them.

Is our capital at any risk without defenders? Barbarians could come and attack us with a galley but they never unload troops that I've seen. An AI on the other hand could walk into our capital and take it. At some stage we should think about building a warrior there. Maybe after the next work boat is complete?

Good work Blid, we have a good start here. I also agree with hunting and archery next.

Ralph Jackson is up.

Blid - Just played
Ralph Jackson - UP
sooooo - On Deck
Kikinit
Mike p

Latecomers:
Rihiter
ZerrorR

EDIT: Does 20 turns seem reasonable?

Is our capital at any risk without defenders? Barbarians could come and attack us with a galley but they never unload troops that I've seen. An AI on the other hand could walk into our capital and take it. At some stage we should think about building a warrior there. Maybe after the next work boat is complete?

I don't think I've ever seen a barbarian invasion. One archer should be enough because a galley's worth of AI troops (2) should not be able to do much damage due to the amphibious and hill penalty.

One priority on the mainland will be fogbusting. But also we need to get a worker out to mine those gems.

20 turns seems reasonable to me.

Here's a list of the techs that we have: Fishing, The Wheel, Mysticism, Polytheism;
And the techs we want: (Hunting), Archery, Mining

Maybe we can try and keep this up to date at the start to see what is best done next.

We need to build some defenders and a worker. Currently a worker could only build roads which are not useless but may negate the need for a worker in a hurry. We need mining by the time we get a worker to be of reasonable use.

For my thinking once we get to mining we have a branch. We can go for bronze working or head towards trying for an oracle slingshot. I know that's getting tiring (it is to me anyway) but it is such a powerful way to get an expensive free tech and that huge boost to your tech standing.

Maybe we can build a barracks whilst lettling the city grow and waiting for archery.

Worker cost is 90. City tile give 2H,2F, 2 oasis give 2F, worker takes 90/6 = 15 turns to complete

If we start the worker right after the warrior, it makes a total of 5 (warrior) + 15 (worker) = 20 turns.


hunting->archery->mining takes 24 turns. That means we will have only 4 turns before the worker starts the mine, maybe even 3 if the research is boosted once Kyoto grows to size 4. During these turns, the worker would road the close gems. This way, an archer can kill a barb on the flat gems mine and get back to city on the same turn. The happiness of course is most welcome

I you are aiming for 20 turns, then maybe Ralph can play it up until mining which don't make a big difference. This way, we will discuss next tech branch with all available data : new met AIs, barbs activity, landshape ...

Ok I propose to take it forward as has been laid out but just to make sure we are all agreed

Kyoto

Complete 2nd workboat -> Crabs
Start archer.

Research

Hunting - Archery - Mining - Stop

Osaka
Warrior (New 1 as a fog buster original one fortified in Osaka) - worker (road to adjacent gems) - Archer

Won't adopt Hinduism as State religion yet.

If anything interesting happens prior to Mining I will err on the side of caution and pause so as long as its mainly hit enter and :coffee: I will take it through to the next checkpoint which is Mining coming in which I guess will be about 20 - 23 turns as Kyotos starts working extra 2f/2C tiles.

Ralph

Sounds good Ralph. At the end of mining we can work out where we want to go. See if we can pull of a slingshot or if we should go another path. I am wondering if with all the food of the capital we can push out a settler and settle on the islands to the north. We'd need sailing for that to get a galley to get there. See the picture for proposed city on green dot.

Should we explore with the second galley around the northern 2 islands only and then come back and fish the crabs? It would take about 8 or 9 turns to explore and fish the crabs. Depends if we need the growth that much or not. Here's my Ugly Map (TM).

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM2/01-ProposedCity.jpg

I really must learn how to draw nicely with a mouse.

I know I am the one who was bragging about those crabs but after giving it a thought, we may connect our capital to another civ before we connect it with the continent cities. In this case, we may be able to trade a second fish for a happiness resource for a couple centuries before the continent cities can use the crab health bonus. Anyway, there is good chance we'll hook up both the second fish and crab before any of these scenarios happen :smoke:

Delaying the fishing boat will cost 2F per turn. Can't estimate how this will impact growth exactly. Depends on city size, how much we have in the food bin, whipping perspectives (if we go for BW). What is sure is that every turn of delay in growth will cost 2 gold (beakers)

Well that was a plan that only survived me opeing up the save and looking at it for a Minute, I have to get better at planning and looking ahead :blush:

The basic issue is that Kyoto will grow to its happiness limit well before the 2nd Workboat is completed due to its very high food surplus. Therefore we need to choose between.

1. Stick with the workboat followed by Warrior to use the workboat for exploring purposes.
2. Go warrior first (increasing the happy limit by 1) followed by Workboat as this will maximize :science: (in the medium term unchanged short term) as we will be working an extra 2 commerce square, at the slight cost of slowing down exploring meeting other civs et al.

I prefer 2 as the extra commerce strikes me as more important right now.

Views??

I was about to remind you guys that we wouldn't be leaving Kyoto undefended due to the unhappiness penalty, but you can't get nothing past Ralph! Go for #2.

Instead of an Oracle/CoL slingshot, let's go for the Oracle for Metal Casting. Kyoto will be working mostly sea tiles, no?

Yep, go for #2. Nice spot Ralph.

Nice, keep it going like this. I think we should get archery, becaus defence is most important when weplay with ragging barbs... then other staff.

Thats all, I realy dont have good acces to internet... :\ till 16th September I am almost out of civ-order.

The basic issue is that Kyoto will grow to its happiness limit well before the 2nd Workboat is completed due to its very high food surplus. Therefore we need to choose between.


Ooops, I missed this. I am also for #2

I was thinking the fog buster shouldn't go far away for the moment. Maybe the forest/hill 1S of gold so he can get back to city if a couple barbs show from another direction. Since it is impossible at the moment to bust fog efficiently, I'd rather see first units as sentinel intercepters


EDIT : did you have a look at the score graphs. 2 teams have a plateau and a team has even lost points. It's either heavy whipping though I doubt it will have such an effect. My guess is that they lost a city (boogeys ? :scared:). Anyway, I am glad we decided to go for archery

EDIT 2 : checked the culture graph too. It says that CFR founded a religion (probably hinduism) around 3000 BC

We also ought to prioritize sailing to settle another city on the islands north of Kyoto.

Do we have more than 1 warrior in Osaka? We really can't bust much fog with only one unit - wherever we put him, the barbs can still come from the other side. He's probably better off fortified as a back up in the city, at least until we get some archers out.

Pre-Turn

Kyoto to Warrior & Research to Hunting -> Archery

Send our Warrior home, he encounters a Panther on the way which makes me twitch as to how much we are in the lap of the RNG’s at this stage, he wins as he should but if some team is very unlucky in a situation like this it could be game over. As he is close to our borders send him into the city to heal as no Animals in the way.

Issie’s scouts are doing :goodjob: some cracking fog busting for us, basically without OB’s they seem to circling round our city!! Now what does this mean, I think it is perhaps telling us our landmass isn’t that big ?

Turn 3ish (wasn’t keeping good track as I am playing to Mining!) pop our warrior and start the Worker.

:coffee: unfortunately can’t roll a fat one as this is being done on my laptop at work :blush:

Turn 7 Kyoto finishes its warrior and goes onto a workboat

2800 BC get ready for the Barbs they’ll be here soon!! Here’s is our defensive set up as the warrior on the wooded hill is safer than the one in the city and hopefully some barbs will suicide against him. This does mean that although it’s a poorer tile we should consider mining the gold before the gems as it is less likely to be pillaged. Obviously when we can get an Archer out to the Wood East of the Gems then that one is better. Anyway a conundrum for the next player to decide.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/1defence.jpg
2710BC First wave incoming not that scary as it could have been 4 or 5 in one go and they are beaten off without too much of a scare.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/1firstwave.jpg
The next wave comes from the East / NE so no real progress made on the road to the Gems but we have a road to the gold.

Note to next player. When the Barbs pass over our Oasis the City Governor works a different tile so you have to constantly reassign back to the Oasis. A pain in the neck I am afraid.

EOT 2530BC

Mining finished of course. A Barb coming in from the East (I think Issie has stopped them spawning from S SW) but our Warriors are fine and dandy.

Here is our mighty empire, capital is about to enter a long period of unhappy and sickly faces!!

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/1kyoto.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/1osaqka.jpg

What is Gyathaar up to?

Warning rambling mode on.

Some musings that came to mind whilst pressing enter. Basically we could have some real fun here whilst I think about it. Now if I was the map designer I would have split the 7 AI up with ocean separating them into two camps and us having a presence in both mini-worlds which are going to be separated for the AI until Optics comes in and militarily until Galleons

So what does this mean??

We need 2 diplomatic strategies for who our friends are in each mini-world. Tech trading becomes even more fun as we can say trade Alphabet with Issie without her being able to pawn it around on the other mini-world. Similarly we can pick up a tech in the other world and get good value over here?!?!?

Resource trading could also be confusing… If we trade for say a luxury resource from Issie I guess its only available to cities in Kyoto worlds trade network as Osaka world isn’t hooked up to the trade network for centuries even though the resource came from Osaka world to start with :confused: Or does it mean we can’t trade resources with Isabella as she isn’t hooked up into our capitals trade network ?? :crazyeye:

Umm bigger brains than me can work out if this should affect our strategy or not or if I have just drunk to much coffee and need to lie down….

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG002_BC2530_01.Civ4SavedGame)

Not sure exactly what you guys are thinking for our warrior promotions, but Guerrilla I & II should be automatic since we'll either be defending the Gold or the city on a hill. I actually think the gold is much better to work than the gems initially, since it will give 2 more hammers with only one less commerce in addition to being more defensible.

Re promotions we will want to get our defenders out of our city fogbusting e.g Stage 1 defending in the wood 2E of our city then pushing out later.

So although our city and gold mine are / will be on hills I would hope in 30 turns not to be defending Barb attacks on those squares but further away so Woodsmen promotions are also very suitable.

Ralph

Nice work holding off the barbs Ralph. Here is the roster:

Blid
Ralph Jackson - Just Played
sooooo - UP
Kikinit - On Deck
Mike p

Latecomers:
Rihiter
ZerrorR

I assume we want bronze working next? That is due in 15 turns so it seems a sensible number of turns for me to play. Once the archer is finished I think it would be best to start another archer.

Well the Barbs weren't particulalrly "raging" in my set only coming in small groups which basically just gave our warriors experience. This may be down to Isabella's scouits so you may have a slightly more "interesting" time holding them off!!

I think building a 2nd Archer and researching Bronze working is spot on.

Ralph

I went ahead and played because I am going to my parents soon for the weekend.

Note: BW=barbarian warrior

T1 (2500 BC) A BW is now 1E of the city. I move our warrior to cover the worker mining the gold.

T2 (2470 BC) The BW attacks the warrior+worker pair. We win (1.0/2.0). BW appears in the west.

T4 (2410 BC) Our borders pop at Osaka. The BW is 1E of Osaka. I promote the warrior on the gold to woodsman 2 which heals him to 1.8.

T5 (2380 BC) The BW again attacks the warrior+worker pair instead of our city. The warrior wins again (1.1/2.0).

T6 (2350 BC) Osaka is at size 3. The new citizen is working the gold to allow the archer to be produced in before a newly spotted BW in the east reaches.

T7 (2320 BC) Kyoto finishes a work boat, starts another. I decide to scout with this work boat. Gold mine is finished. A BW is 1W of Osaka. I move our remaining warrior onto the gold mine, because the existing warrior there is not healed yet. This leaves Osaka unguarded, but an archer will be produced next turn.

T8 (2290 BC) The BW choses to attack our 2 warriors instead of the new archer. We win. Find clams near cow-isle. We start another archer at Osaka and we work the flood plains instead of the gold for growth. This only delays bronze working by 1 turn.

T9 (2260 BC) A BW kills Izzy's scout. Make that 2 clams at cow-isle. Another BW appears in the south-east. Start mining the gems.

T10 (2230 BC) I move our archer 1SE out of Osaka to prevent the BW occupying the tile 1SE of Osaka. That's a bad tile because all 3 tiles we need to protect (city, gold, gems) are threatened. Spot another BW in the NE.

T11 (2200 BC) The BW attacks the archer in the open and we win.

T12 (2170 BC) We find Whales near stone-isle.

T13 (2140 BC) We have BWs 1NE and 1W of Osaka. I stop the gemming worker and move him and his escort into Osaka. Make that 2 Whales at stone-isle.

T14 (2110 BC) One BW attacks Osaka and loses to the archer. The other attacks the gold and loses to our warrior.

T15 (2080 BC) BW in, start sailing (can be changed). Copper is visible to the east, where a city will also get fish and stone. Hmm, how much is a palace to build? I was able to stop the worker finishing his turns, so all units and the worker are unmoved for this turn. Gems mine has 1 turn to complete, so there is nothing to pillage here. Here is the situation:

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7339/milsit2080ie7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And at Kyoto:

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7886/kyoto2080bcyz6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG002_BC2080_01.Civ4SavedGame)

Nice work, it strikes me that we're now at a point where we should all have a look at the save and discuss the next stage strategy?

I will try and post some thoughts / options tomorrow.

Ralph

Yeah nicely done sooooo.

Should we make the capital build a settler when it gets to it's growth limit and we're waiting for sailing?

I'll take a look at the save later today and post some more comments.

I'm not completely sure if sailing is the correct choice. We have 2 options really:

(a) research sailing, produce 1 or 2 settlers at kyoto and settle cow-isle and stone-isle. Build a lighthouse at Kyoto too.

or

(b) build a settler at Osaka and settle the bronze/stone/fish spot. Then settler another city and build a palace at Osaka. I've never built a palace before but apparently it needs 4 cities and costs 160 hammers. In this case we don't need sailing so we can research AH/agriculture/pottery etc.

I don't think we can yet afford the maintenece costs of having 2 or 3 cities so far away from our capital. I think the next cities we settle have to be near the capital, which may necessitate moving said capital. Kyoto could get the forbidden palace.

I think plan (b) is probably the way to go, because if we settle the 2 cities near Kyoto there is no where else to go (unless these cities border pop and let us cross to more territory).

OK Some thoughts.

Civics

Switch to Slavery is a no-brainer unlocking the Whip which we will be employing and also letting us whip in
an extra archer in Osaka if the RNG is cruel and we suddenly need an extra archer.

Research

Initially I thought Sailing would be a priority but looking at the sea round Kyoto I only think it will allow us
to settle the two tiny Islands we can already see as outside this group we are surrounded by Ocean.
Now when (eventually!) Kyoto pops its 3rd ring or one of the Islands gets a 2nd ring (from an Obelisk possibly!)
this might unlock more tiles we can explore to.

So this means that settling the two islands only advances us significantly when we have either Writing + libraries
or Caste System for running specialists.

So looking at Osaka what is the research priority?

For me I doubt we will be able to settle near the copper and mine it before Barb Axemen appear so
I would go down the Iron Working route just to see if there is an Iron source nearby to save us from Axemen (20 turns away max I would guess).

This might feel like a risky path as without Iron in our cultural borders we haven’t made progress towards settling
the copper but in the turns (18ish) it takes us to get IW we are going to have to put all our hammers into Archers
anyway so to me it feels like it is not slowing us down getting towards the copper we can see but is taking a useful
tech that may offer us other options.

If we don’t like this then I think it is Pottery - > Writing for the benefit of Kyoto, I prefer this slightly to the shorter
Priesthood – writing path as it lets us whip in a granary if desired in Kyoto to improve whip efficiency and I can’t see us
building the Oracle for quite a while. However on this route we are exposed to losing Osaka when axe men start to appear.

Build

Osaka – Archers and more archers
Kyoto – fish the crabs with the workboat we have and stick the spare food into a settler that we will get round to using at some point.

Iron working is probably a good idea. I figure that if we can grab the stone/fish/copper, then we can fill in the peninsula to the north with a couple of cities which will be safe from barbs, cut down all of the jungle and cottage spam away.

It does seem like settling those islands North of Kyoto may be a trap, at least until we can a Forbidden Palace up somewhere.

I'll wait until tomorrow night to play this. I've got too much going on in my RL (domestic issues) to get to it today.

Well probably also worth talking about defensive set ups, though I am sure Kikinit could work this lot out for himself.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/defence.jpg

The warrior in Pink is Woodmans 2 so he is actually stronger in the woods as shown even after the 50% attacking across the river penalty. Once moved and fortified he should stand up to barb Archers for a long time.

Obviously need to keep a defender on the Gold Mine and City. Best for the gold mine defender to be our next Archer as he can then pick up guerilla promotions after being attacked.

Next 2 sites for defneding / barb bashing I think are the two yellow circles. The one to the E will help prevent our gem mine whee built being pillaged as hopefully the barbs will suicide against the defender in the woods.

The one to the W is again to tempt barbs into attacking into the woods and as with the other one , if they turn down attacking into the woods lets our defender attack them on open ground.

Lastly we are very health rich and even without Mathematics shouldn't be too shy about chopping in barracks / extra defenders if necessary.

Ok. I'll play until we get iron working in. 17 turns at the present rate. It may go a bit faster if I can get any of those gems mined. Bit short at this stage of an epic game but it's a good point to stop again and discuss.

Thanks Ralph for the pointers on defenders. I'll probably push them out a bit further as we get a few more.

Of the other ideas, I think we should move the capital. We'll need to get two more cities before we can build it if sooooo's right so we need a settler built soon.

Got it and playing now.

Yeah I think having a capital on this side of the pond is definitely compelling in the medium term but we have so many competing demands for our :hammers:

Defenders
Settlers
Palace,

Of course with a bit of luck Isabella may help us by spawning a few cities stopping us needing to build our own settlers :evil:

On a more serious note I will be out of the loop 22nd to 30th August inclusive, not work but a week in Ibiza :cool:

Cheers

Ralph

As said, I played through until we got Iron Working and some good news amidst all the barbs. They're starting to come with regularity.

(0)-2080BC - I immediately revolt to slavery. We'll need it if there is an emergency and to get things in Kyoto with it's big food surplus. We just need to get a trade route to the capital for the happiness to get there. The fishing boat at Kyoto connects the crabs. Woodsman II warrior on gems moves to forest N of barb warrior and fortifies. Worker puts 1 turn into road on south Gems and the archer in Osaka fortifies in the capital.

IBT: Barb warrior tries his luck on our warrior and is out of it, luck that is.

(1)-2050BC - I move the worker to the northern gems to avoid the barb warrior who is now SE of the city. I promote the warrior on the gold mine with shock (+25% vs melee) to take out the barb warriors.

IBT: Barb warrior attacks our warrior on the gold and loses. New barb archer and warrior appear in the S and E quadrants respectively.

(2)-2020BC - Worker is mining the Northern gems. The northern gems are better than the south. 1 more commerce.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM2/Civ4ScreenShot0284.jpg

Kyoto is to grow next turn. Workboat is only 1 pop if whipped so I start a settler with the idea to whip him next turn and let the overflow go into the workboat.

(3)-1990BC - The southern barb archer has gone and the barb warrior to the east moves to the forest 2E of Osaka. I put 1 turn into the settler and switch back to the work boat to let the capital grow unhappy next turn. Then I'll whip the settler in. Or maybe not, it's still 4 pop so I'll let the settler build until it's 3 pop.

IBT: 2 barb archers appear. 1 south and 1 East.

(4)-1960BC - :coffee:

IBT: Barb warrior attacks the gold protector and we win flawlessly.

(5)-1930BC - Kyoto to workboat again for 1 turn as it's now 3 pop for the settler. (With hindsight, I've rushed the settler for what? But I didn't know what else to build. I thought a barracks was a waste.)

(6)-1900BC - The archer is done in Osaka. One more archer whilst the city grows and gets ready to build a settler.

I move the arhcer onto the gold mine and promote it guerilla I. I'll send him to the hill/forest down south as a fogbuster and forward lookout after he deals with the barb archer nearby.

I whipped the settler in the capital. Now the capital is size 3 but it will grow back in about 5 turns.

IBT: The archer on the gold beats off the barb archer and then starts moving towards the southern outpost.

(7)-1870BC - Settler put to sleep in the Kyoto. Gems are done so make the city work them instead of the floodplains.

IBT: The warrior on the gold beats off another barb archer. :goodjob:

(8)-1840BC - :coffee:

IBT: Judaism is FIADL.

(9)-1810BC - :coffee:

IBT: Isabella adopts OR so I guess she got monotheism first and Judaism. Archer heading south wins against barb archer but is now injured partially.

(10)-1780BC - :coffee:

IBT: The injured archer to the south now loses. :cry:

(11)-1750BC - Archer -> Archer in Osaka. I would go for a settler but there's still too many barbs around and not enough defenders out yet. The archer heads south to the post I previously wanted to defend.

IBT: Barb archer loses to the warrior on the gold this time. He's my hero of these turns.

(12)-1720BC - I move the northern warrior to the NE to have a peak at what's around and spot an isabella border. No wonder there are no barbs coming from that direction. I'll send him up to have a peak.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM2/Civ4ScreenShot0285.jpg

(13)-1690BC - The gems are now connected by road and the happy limit goes up 1 more. Forges are going to be quite useful to us in this place.

(14)-1660BC - Another workboat is done in Kyoto. What next? I select another workboat as I can't see what else is useful. Trouble is without happy or any buildings to build for specialists, it's not much use.

The new southern lookout arrives at his post to a hostile welcome.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM2/Civ4ScreenShot0286.jpg

IBT: The southern lookout wins his first battle. I set him to fortify on the forested hill.

(15)-1630BC - :coffee:

(16)-1600BC - Bugger. Now a warrior comes from the north towards our mined gems and I've sent the northern warrior off exploring thinking it was safe. I've also got another archer east of the capital but I'll be able to get out, defend the gems and get back to the capital in time. I can also use the whip in an emergency. The worker without many options goes to the NW of Osaka to mine grassland hill.

IBT: The archer on the gems wins and the tricky barb to the east goes onto the road between Osaka and the gems blocking the archer from returning!! Woops.

(17)-1570BC - I move the gold warrior into Osaka for protection of the city. The gold is undefended for a moment but is not and threat but Osaka is and it's a bit more important.

IBT: Iron working comes in. What to do next?

(18)-1540BC - I stop here for us to discuss our next path to take.

Here's my piece of good news. The iron is on the grassland hill to the NW of Osaka :D . I've put 2 turns or so into mining it already too. The worker has been evacuated back to the city as it's under threat.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM2/Civ4ScreenShot0287.jpg

This picture is showing all our units and the barbs around. Our archer is fortified on the gems and the warrior with guerilla II is heading back to help out. Due to the fortification, our archer should have better odds than the barb archer to his south but it's by no means a certainty to win. Osaka will have another archer IBT so should be ok and that archer can help to deal with the barb archer and warrior east and west. The southern lookout is healing.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM2/Civ4ScreenShot0289.jpg

Kyoto is about to grow unhappy next turn. We can let it go and whip but it's only 1 pop per whip and seems too costly. In 3 turns the whip effect will wear off so it will be ok then. Keep an eye on it and reconfigure if necessary to work the lower food cells and keep the growth down. Or build settlers and workers if you want but they cost maintenance.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/scwally/SGOTM2/Civ4ScreenShot0290.jpg

In all the fun I forgot to mention that Isabella has a few cities nearby to the North. Maybe a good target once we get the iron mined.

Here's the save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG002_BC1540_01.Civ4SavedGame

Here is the roster:

Blid - On Deck
Ralph Jackson
sooooo
Kikinit
Mike p - UP

Latecomers:
Rihiter
ZerrorR

Note: The gems in the south only has one turn to finish its mine (from my turns - I mentioned it in the report). I mined the southern gems because I thought it would be easier to defend.

I never got any peace throughout my turns to mine it without it being attacked in short order. Once we get rid of the barb archers in our midst now, we can probably defend the two gems with the warrior to the NE of the north gems and an archer in the forest to the East of the south gems. The barbs just tend to go straight for the gems though.

I saw it had one turn but I didn't want to put that in and then have it ransacked and have to start again.

Yeah those barbs are like magpies. Anything shiney and they'll go right for it.

I should be able to play tonight. My current thinking is that we'll have everything we need to take out Isabella, since we have iron. Though one more city to pump out some swords might be a good idea.

With that in mind, I'd probably research towards Code of Laws. It will allow us to build courthouses and a forbidden palace, and is on the path to Samurai. On the other hand, getting to metal working and machinery is also necessary and the colussus would be a nice science boost with our island start. We just have no place to build it yet.

Good job on holding back the Barbarian Hordes Kikinit (we have killed 6 archers and 13 warriors for the loss of one Archer !!)
and Gyathaar has definitely been kind to this city site.

So Observations

Looking at the save Isabella has planted 2 cities for us, how kind and they even look like they are in sensible spots.

I think as Mike P has suggested we should use our Iron to build an Army and take Issie out. But as Mike also points out we could rapidly kill our economy with Maintenace costs if we are succesful in assimilating our Empire.

But I don't necessarily think COL is the answer :eek: . Our city maintenance in Osaka is 12 for distance from capital and we are still below the number of cities where that will start to creep up. Rather than the Courthouse Forbidden Palace route the rebuilding the Palace is more efficient because:-

1. Only 240 :hammers: as opposed to 300 for Forbidden palace and we don't need lots of courhtouse first just to capture 2 of Issies cities
2. Kyoto isn't a problem as when we get COL's if we run caste system it can use its specialists to balance its high upkeep.

So I would say

1. Build Axe / Swordsmen army
2. Whilst researching through to Alphabet
3. So after taking enough cities to rebuild Palace we can extort a tech for Peace (Monotheism at least)
4. The 10 turn peace treaty will let us get our economy in Order, then finish her off.

Ralph

OK. These barbs are relentless.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/Civ4ScreenShot00006.JPG

1520BC I whip Barracks in Kyoto just because there's nothing else to do. An archer completes in Osaka.

1490BC There's a barb archer next to Osaka. If he attacks the city we should win easily. If he moves to the gold mine we won't be able to dislodge him until he pillages. So I move the just built and not yet fortified archer out of Osaka onto the gold mine and whip a replacement archer for Osaka.

1460BC We defeat the barb archer and I queue, wait for it, another archer!

1360BC If we're heading for Alphabet, then I research Priesthood, planning to follow with pottery, then writing. May as well get the prereq discount and it will give Kyoto something to build.

At various points I win three times with archers attacking barb warriors on our gems at 92.1% chance of success.

1300BC We loses a slightly wounded archer in the hills south of Osaka to a barb archer attacking at 16.9%. Damn.

1210BC Iron is hooked up in Osaka. Priesthood is done, and I start Pottery. This may be stupid, but I start the Oracle in Kyoto, since there is nothing else to build. With a couple of citizens working and eventually a 3 population whip, we might squeak it out - recommend metal casting if we do. Most likely we're just building wealth though since someone else is likely to beat us. But with no other pressing needs there right now, why not take a shot? I'd like to try and finish it, but if the team decides to switch to a library eventually and hire scientists I won't be upset.

1090 BC I write in my notes that the barbs seem to have settled down.

1060BC Three barb archers appear - one from the west, one from the NE, and one from the SE. Fun. Another archer is finished in Kyoto and I start an axeman.

1030BC With the iron, gems, and gold mined, I start a chop on a tile NW of Kyoto inside our borders but outside the fat cross. 25 hammers will help us get out our first axe and then another or a sword more quickly.

1000BC I get another archer killed when the barbs attack with a 9.9% chance of success. I haven't have terrible luck, but it certainly hasn't been good either.

I recommend building 2 melee units, then a settler to go to the forested hill that can work the Iron, clams and wheat. Get the second iron mined and then use both cities to build an army to start our revenge on Spain.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG002_BC1000_01.Civ4SavedGame

Forgot to mention - Pottery has just completed and I have tentatively selected Writing. And don't forget that when the barbs move onto one of our gems and then we kill them, we need to manually go back to working the tile. Though at the save I'm working an oasis instead of a gem to grow faster.

Will have a look at the save tonight but I think it comes down to a choice between the Settler route that might Mike mentioned (will be a good city site) or just building the army in Osaka and taking down Isabella from there. Without looking at the save hard to tell which is better.

Re losing a few low odds fight, well I got the impression that Kikinit and I were constantly winning 80% style fights so we were bound to start losing a few, what matters was that although we lost a couple of Archers we kept all our key resources hooked up and defended. :goodjob:

re Oracle in Kyoto I think its a cool move as we have been struggling to do anything constructive up there and who knows...... if it works awe inspiring, if not we will just have a little gold and some pop to whip in our library so its a no lose move :D

Ralph

If we are going to take on Isabella we'll want to take her out before her conquistador's come into play anyway. I think we will need to save our money as taking 2 or 3 cities from her will tank our economy until we can shift the palace. Hope she's got some gold mines too.

I am all for going straight for her though. Getting a 2nd city to build our army will give us huge costs whilst we build the army and we won't be able to fix it until after the war. Would be better to keep the one city for producing the military required.

We need to get open borders with her and do a bit of recon on her city locations to see if she's got them on hills or nicely out in the open.

Either way we're going to hit an economic slow down. 2 gems and the gold can easily support a second city and with it we can take away spawning areas for the barbs, and have a more whip friendly city with 2 high food resources instead of high commerce resources - whipping in Osaka really hurts us. It also means we can still strengthen our defense while building a new palace. I think it's worth the short term pain, but I have no proof with actual numbers.

Yes I would be in favour of getting another whippable city sometime soon. It will hurt us in maintence costs in the short term, but gets us closer to the Palace we will need in the medium term.

I think Blid is back today, so he is up.

One question: When an enemy attacks one of your troops, how do you know its odds?

Have had a look at the save...

I think we need to give up on the Oracle in Kyoto even though it was a cool idea. Basically we are employing 3 citizens to generate 3 :hammers: to make some progress on the Oracle but...

We can only whip 2 citizens generating 90 hammers less 50% as its for a wonder. This means we are 30 turns away from whipping it in so we will miss it. Now each of thsoe 3 citizens could generate 2 :commerce: for us a turn now and I doubt the :hammers: will get converted into 2 gold each (anybody know?) when we lose the race so we are probably better having them work the coastal tiles.

Trust this makes sense

As far as plans in Osaka land go Issie has now settled 3 new cities so we have an alternative to founding our own city which is just capturing hers (Need 2 to build a palace). Not a decison to be made now as all of the next turnset Osaka will just be pumping out Axe / Swordsmen, but at some point we will have to decide. I don't think we can afford to build a settler in the next turnset for sure as growing Military is the priority. Hopefully we won't need to whip again in Kyoto although it has defintely been necessary up to now. I would consider chopping the woods immediately adjacent to our city at some point as they are giving cover to invaders.

Sooo.

The event log gives the combat odds even when you are the defender.

Ralph

Actually Ralph, we'll grow to size 6 before we complete the Oracle so we can whip three citizens. But missing it is still a risk. I think the upside is pretty big if it gets us to Samurai sooner via Metal Casting, and the Great Prophet it will eventually generate can be used for Civil Service if we research to Code of Laws and don't open up the Masonry branch. I say let's stick with it - with raging barbs the AI may be slower to build wonders too.

If we pull it off, we'll have a great shot of winning the competition this month. If we lose it, then we wasted some commerce since there's really nothing else to build right now.

Will barb galleys spawn off the islands to the north of Kyoto eventually?

:blush: forgot about growing to size 6, in which case keep it in the queue but we neeed to remove 1 citizen for 6 turns so it can be at size 6 when we are ready to whip (take to long to grow with 3 citizens?)

Ralph

I think leaving the Oracle building is fine. There really isn't much else to do anyway.

We haven't seen anyone but Isabella so far. I wonder if we're on an island with her. We'll need to remember the barb busters and protection even while we are going for Isabella. It's going to take a few units to do it all. Thankfully we've got those gems and gold to support our economy. Protect them as well as you can.

Are we now heading our research directly towards the techs for Samurai? I like the choice of writing next to see if we can get open borders with Issy and inspect our future city locations so we can agree beforehand which to keep and which to raze. There doesn't seem to be too many food resources around and I can't see many tempting city locations.

I've no problem with not settling areas but we'll have to work out a way to stop the barbs.

Got it. Good job guys protecting the improvements with all the boogeys around
I am for settling a second city first. This will make Izzy harder to kill but will lessen the barb pressure from the west. Killing Izzy too early will on the contrary increase the barb pressure. I still don't know where Izzy capital is. Is it the northen peninsula with a choking point or the SW ?

I will keep working on the oracle and head for alphabet. Izzy is making a good use of fog busting with city spamming

Playing now, gimme some barbs

Played 15 turns. No casualties. We have writing and 2 melee units

BA= barb archer
BW= barb warrior

First bit of barbs activity

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/6026/01axereadydm0.jpg


The axe is ready in time thanks to the chop. It seems like the BA east is interested mainly in the gems. We are not working those, but the worker has better to do than mine those gems again and again

Osaka starts a sword after the axe who kills the BA on the gems and gets 2xp (how lucky was that ?) so I don't send him home. I want the archer defending Osaka to gain some xp. He is a complete rookie for now. Maybe we need to switch him with the one guarding the gold when the threat is just BWs

I send the worker to connect the northern gems. Mainly for defense purposes though it seems like this side is rather safe now. After roading the gems, the worker farmed the rice. I'd rather not chop any more forests before maths

We got a barb axe (first one ?) who promptly suicided against our axe in the woods

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2180/02barbaxezz6.jpg


Osaka finished the sword and put a turn into a lib while growing to size 5. The settler is due in 12 turns. I got writing and chose alphabet after that. It takes around 19 turns. We are even at ~65%. But this would drop once we settle the next city

Concerning Kyoto, we may need to have a turn or 2 working a crab to grow to size 6 on time for the whip. I don't know the exact number because I don't know how rounding works. I calculated 11 turns before 3 pops whip is enough to complete oracle while it takes 12 turns to grow to size 6 at current configuration. That's why I think we need to work only one crab for only 1 turn

Below is a capture of the troops positions.

http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/6443/03finalsituationpx8.jpg


I think the warrior should go into spain territory. I didn't open borders yet but Izzy is willing to do that. The sword can go inspect a bit in the black fog SW but don't send him too far. If he meets an axe in open ground, he is toast

I am not able to upload the save. The form says it can't connect to the ftp server. I'll try later and post the turnlog and the save link

Concerning Kyoto, we may need to have a turn or 2 working a crab to grow to size 6 on time for the whip. I don't know the exact number because I don't know how rounding works. I calculated 11 turns before 3 pops whip is enough to complete oracle while it takes 12 turns to grow to size 6 at current configuration. That's why I think we need to work only one crab for only 1 turn


Are you allowing for the 50% Penalty when whipping in Wonders in that calculation?

Now some players (knowingly or at times unknowingly) abuse this by whipping things in with a lot of overflow which doesn't get the Penalty. I am glad to say the Admins have noted that this shouldn't really be done (although it is not banned) I certainly would be very unhappy to see it used here.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=180489&page=4

Anyway enough moralising I think the 100% penalty means we actually will need a 4 pop whip (or a lot more turns!!) which is a long way away !!

Ralph

Nice barb-defense Blid. So where are we going to put that settler?

Ralph Jackson is up.

Blid - Just Played
Ralph Jackson - UP
sooooo - On Deck
Kikinit
Mike p

Latecomers:
Rihiter
ZerrorR

I think the forested hill to the west pointed to by Mike is a good spot. We can also send the axe to see what is there 3S of the sheep and wheat. If there is a third resource there, settling 1SW of the sheep can be an option too

@Ralph : the numbers I used were based on 45 hammers by whip. It seems like I was wrong and the correct number is 44. Well, this makes a total of 66 in place of the 67 I used. I suppose that a whip yields half the usual hammers when used on a wonder, so 3 pops produce 22*3 = 66 hammers
Oracle costs 225H. So to whip it with 3 pops, we need to have 225-66=159 hammers. We already have 103 hammers and we are generating 5H per turn. To make it to 159, we need (159-103)/5 = 56/5 = 12 turns. The city grows in 12 turns. In fact, we don't need to work the crabs at all and we will be able to whip oracle in 12 turns. Did I miss something in the math above ?

EDIT :


Turn 100, 1000 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Warrior (2.20) vs Barbarian's Archer (1.95)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Combat Odds: 63.7%
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 17 (35/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 17 (18/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Warrior is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 17 (1/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Archer (6.75)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Combat Odds: 0.5%
Turn 103, 955 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 103, 955 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 103, 955 BC: (Hills: +75%)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 104, 940 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Archer (3.00)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Combat Odds: 98.2%
Turn 104, 940 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 104, 940 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Archer (8.70)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 104, 940 BC: (Plot Defense: +65%)
Turn 104, 940 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 104, 940 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 104, 940 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 104, 940 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 38 (62/100HP)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 38 (24/100HP)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 38 (0/100HP)
Turn 104, 940 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 107, 895 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Warrior (1.33)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 107, 895 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 107, 895 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (63/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (26/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (0/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Archer (6.75)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 107, 895 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 107, 895 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 107, 895 BC: (Hills: +75%)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 34 (66/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer is hit for 11 (78/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer is hit for 11 (67/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 34 (32/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 108, 880 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.50)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 108, 880 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 108, 880 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 108, 880 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 108, 880 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Archer (6.00)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Combat Odds: 0.9%
Turn 109, 865 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 109, 865 BC: (Hills: +75%)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer is hit for 14 (30/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 110, 850 BC: You have discovered Writing!

Turn 111, 835 BC: Barbarian's Axeman (5.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman (8.00)
Turn 111, 835 BC: Combat Odds: 4.4%
Turn 111, 835 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 111, 835 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 111, 835 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 111, 835 BC: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 111, 835 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 111, 835 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 111, 835 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 111, 835 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 111, 835 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 111, 835 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 111, 835 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 111, 835 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!

Turn 112, 820 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!
Turn 112, 820 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman (5.77)
Turn 112, 820 BC: Combat Odds: 0.5%
Turn 112, 820 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 112, 820 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 112, 820 BC: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 112, 820 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (63/100HP)
Turn 112, 820 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (26/100HP)
Turn 112, 820 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (0/100HP)
Turn 112, 820 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 113, 805 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!
Turn 113, 805 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!
Turn 113, 805 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Archer (4.83)
Turn 113, 805 BC: Combat Odds: 8.2%
Turn 113, 805 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 113, 805 BC: (Fortify: +15%)
Turn 113, 805 BC: (Hills: +75%)
Turn 113, 805 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 113, 805 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer is hit for 14 (61/100HP)
Turn 113, 805 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 113, 805 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 113, 805 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 113, 805 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 113, 805 BC: While defending, your Archer has killed a Barbarian Archer!

Turn 114, 790 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!

Turn 115, 775 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!
Turn 115, 775 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!


here's the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG002_BC0775_01.Civ4SavedGame)

Nice to see my chop came in handy in getting the axeman out. If we lose Osaka, it's pretty much game over.

And it looks like my "Let's build the Oracle in a city with only water tiles" plan might just be crazy enough to work. Good luck Ralph.

Assuming we get it, I see two options. In either case we want to avoid Masonry so that the Great Prophet that will be generated can be used to lightbulb Civil Service.

A. If Code of Laws is available, grab it, found Confucianism and start researching up the Metal Casting/Machinery branch. This means Civil Service once we pop a Great Prophet (which can be sped up with a priest and temple if it founds in Kyoto), and Osaka will be a monster with the Bureaucracy commerce bonus once we switch the capitol.

B. Or take Metal Casting, and research Code of Laws manually. If we can get the Colussus built, then Kyoto and the islands to the north will have nice Commerce bonuses to speed along research as well. And forges sooner mean more production everywhere.

I know the library was a one turn diversion while we grew, but once the settler is done, I'm thinking we should pump out units rather than finish the library. Let's cripple Izzy early.

Ok got it will post plan / questions this evening / tomorrow morning with an aim to playing on friday/ saturday but won't rush as I think we are getting through turns plenty quickly enough!!

Looking good.

Ralph

Had a look at the save and think there are 2 key questions to resolve before I play my turns.

1. If Oracle comes in do we take CoL or MC as Mike laid out. My inclination is to take CoL even though it is a slightly cheaper tech than MC for the following reasons.

If it founds in our Capital then we can whip in a Temple run a priest and pop a Great Prophet for Civ Service. The main reason I like this is its getting something "important" out of our capital which doesn't feel like it is "doing" much for our empire otherwise.

If we went down MC yes its a bigger tech but we can't build forges for a while as we don't need the extra happy and priority on the Mainland is Military to take down Issie + Settler for spot identified + Switch palace. Also we are a long way away from the Colossus for the same reasons.

So do people agree CoL makes more sense despite lower :science: cost than MC?

2. Osaka Priority.

Rather than completing the settler immediately we could build Swordsmen until we get to size 6 and then the settler. The thinking behind this is to minimize the time where we have 3 cities and are suffering the big distance from Palace penalties. We would aim to use that settler at the same time we are taking a couple of Issie's cities so that we can sue for Peace (for techs) and use the 10 turns to relocate our palace and then finally take Issie down.

Views ?

Ralph

Either way. But if we grab Code of Laws then we might want to consider delaying war with Isabella. With Civil Service coming quickly thereafter, we leverage it best by building a Palace in Osaka, which will also reduce upkeep for cities that are close. Remember all, we'll also need to research at least Meditation before Civil Service gets lightbulbable.

In this case, it might be better to build 3 or so cities surrounding Osaka and have them all pumping out units while the Palace is built.

Thoughts?

Either way. But if we grab Code of Laws then we might want to consider delaying war with Isabella. With Civil Service coming quickly thereafter, we leverage it best by building a Palace in Osaka, which will also reduce upkeep for cities that are close.

To build the palace we will need 2 more cities so we either
a) build current + take one of Issies (seems very doable)
b) build current + another settler (issue here is finding another good site as we haven't identified one yet, and feels longer than the other paths)
c) build current + take a barb city (they are in city founding mode now and with all the fog there may be one around soon)
d) Take 2 of issie's cities.

It could be we are trying to look too far ahead at the moment and it may make sense for me to:-

1. Play through to Oracle (or missing out on Oracle) taking CoL if we get it.
2. Use a warrior to check if Issie's cities are in good or poor spots with OB
3. Build Military while this is going on as we need a better military for all of the Options above.

This feels like a sensible holding set of actions for this turnset that leaves us able to pick the best path in the next turnset?

Remember all, we'll also need to research at least Meditation before Civil Service gets lightbulbable.

Should be able to pick up meditation post Alphabet in a Trade or Extort for peace deal with Isabella. Though knowing her she will be trying to throw Masonry in with the deal!!

Ralph

Ralph, I agree with you on the path planned. Just don't delay the settler too much, the new city will have to grow before starting to be helpful

If you're gonna build more units, don't focus too much on swords. Axes are needed in case Izzy has metal hooked somewhere and also to counter barb axes. This will also give you a spare axe to gather intel : we need to check Izzy lands with the warrior like you pointed out, but I'd like our axe to check a bit south. We don't know anything about the south of our continent

Concerning trading techs with Izzy, if she don't know any other civ, she will not trade with us her monopoly techs. Even for peace extortion, she will be very stingy. She may though know other civs we don't, civs up there in the north blocked by spanish borders

Pre turn

Switched Kyoto over to producing an extra Axe before the settler and despatched the Woodsmen 2 Warrior to explore Isabella’s territory after signing an OB.

12 turns to Oracle.

Early turns

A steady flow of Barbs now with a higher proportion of them being Axemen. Our Guerrilla Archers are now promoted enough to be able to stand up to Axemen which makes life a lot easier.

Isabella’s first city is in a truly poor position (no extra resources that you cant see on the screenshot) and is a prime candidate for Razing unless we find a nice special resource to the unexplored E.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/1poorcity.jpg

It took me longer to explore the south than I desired as I was a little conservative with our troops but it meant we didn’t lose any of them !!

Now Isabella’s 2nd city is in a much nicer position, it can’t work the fish but they belong to the replacement city we will build on the coast N of Cordoba so not a problem but does have stone and 2 Calendar resources.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/1seville.jpg

Her 3rd city is the Jewish Holy city and is also a cracker and needs to be taken.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/1barcelona.jpg

Isabella capital is an absolute stonker of a city location and must be ours, it has just about everything you could want!!

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/1madrid.jpg

Now at this point all of Issie’s cities are defended only by Archers (3 in most cities some with double City Garrison promotions), only her capital is on a hill, so she is eminently takeable!! Note she has hooked up copper in her capital so the defenders will improve rapidly.

If we can take Isabella’s cities we will have a nice empire and with her being at the north end of our Island it is a nice defensible set up. As we haven’t met any other AI’s and she is not blocking access to the North this strongly suggest we are on an Island with Isabella, albeit a big island.

At this point with just a few turns to go to oracle we unfortunately miss out, Confucianism is FIADL (not Isabella) the very next turn so an AI may have done the CoL Slingshot we were aiming at. Anyway we do get a goodly amount of Gold so we gained real value out of our capital’s efforts anyway.

Because of this I was able to quickly whip in the Library and assign 2 scientists.

Decided to play through to the Settler being built as it was only a couple of turns away.

Meanwhile down south fog busting is much improved and we have found a nice city location with deer, fish and copper for our 3rd city when we are ready.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Ralph_Jackson/1south.jpg

End of Turn

I haven’t burned the cash form the Oracle on research as we may want to hold it to support us over the higher city maintenance period we will have when we expand before relocating the Palace.

The settler is ready and a road is almost finished to link the two up with a worker ready to finish it off if the Barb Archer suicides against our Guerrilla 2 Archer fortified ready at the new city site.

Military has only grown by an axemen but they are now nicely promoted with our swordsman ready for City Raider 1 from Barb Killing.

I think the plan is fairly simple, settle as agreed and go full on Military for 15 turns to prepare for invading Issie, the worker is ready to hook things up at our new city which should become productive fairly quickly but will need to or border pops and work its fish but can work the Iron Straight away.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG002_BC0520_01.Civ4SavedGame

Here is your Session Turn Log from 775 BC to 520 BC:

Turn 115, 775 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Archer (6.75)
Turn 115, 775 BC: Combat Odds: 0.5%
Turn 115, 775 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 115, 775 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 115, 775 BC: (Hills: +75%)
Turn 115, 775 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 115, 775 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 115, 775 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 115, 775 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 115, 775 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 115, 775 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 116, 760 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer (3.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 116, 760 BC: Combat Odds: 92.7%
Turn 116, 760 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 116, 760 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 116, 760 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 116, 760 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 116, 760 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 116, 760 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 116, 760 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 116, 760 BC: The Pyramids has been built in a far away land!

Turn 117, 745 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Archer (3.00)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Combat Odds: 98.2%
Turn 117, 745 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 117, 745 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 118, 730 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Swordsman (6.60) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 118, 730 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Swordsman is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 34 (66/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Swordsman is hit for 11 (78/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 34 (32/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Swordsman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 120, 700 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Axeman (4.00)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Combat Odds: 79.5%
Turn 120, 700 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 120, 700 BC: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 120, 700 BC: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!
Turn 120, 700 BC: You have trained a Axeman in Osaka. Work has now begun on a Settler.

Turn 122, 670 BC: Barbarian's Axeman (5.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman (9.25)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Combat Odds: 1.2%
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 122, 670 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!

Turn 123, 655 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman (5.39) vs Barbarian's Archer (3.00)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Combat Odds: 96.0%
Turn 123, 655 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (84/100HP)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (70/100HP)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (56/100HP)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (42/100HP)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (28/100HP)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (14/100HP)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 123, 655 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 124, 640 BC: The Oracle has been built in a far away land!
Turn 124, 640 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman (5.84)
Turn 124, 640 BC: Combat Odds: 6.2%
Turn 124, 640 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 124, 640 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 124, 640 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 124, 640 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 124, 640 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 13 (60/100HP)
Turn 124, 640 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 13 (47/100HP)
Turn 124, 640 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 124, 640 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 124, 640 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 125, 625 BC: Kyoto can no longer work on The Oracle. The lost $ is converted into 1534!

Turn 126, 610 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman (5.22) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 126, 610 BC: Combat Odds: 99.7%
Turn 126, 610 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 126, 610 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 126, 610 BC: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 126, 610 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 12 (75/100HP)
Turn 126, 610 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 126, 610 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 126, 610 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 12 (63/100HP)
Turn 126, 610 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 126, 610 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 126, 610 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 126, 610 BC: Barbarian's Axeman (5.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Archer (6.75)
Turn 126, 610 BC: Combat Odds: 16.5%
Turn 126, 610 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 126, 610 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 126, 610 BC: (Hills: +75%)
Turn 126, 610 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 126, 610 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 126, 610 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 126, 610 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 126, 610 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 126, 610 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 126, 610 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 126, 610 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!

Turn 127, 595 BC: You have constructed a Library in Kyoto. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 127, 595 BC: Confucianism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 128, 580 BC: Barbarian's Axeman (5.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman (9.25)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Combat Odds: 1.2%
Turn 128, 580 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 128, 580 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 128, 580 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 128, 580 BC: (Combat: +75%)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!
Turn 128, 580 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Swordsman (9.60)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 128, 580 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 128, 580 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 34 (66/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 34 (32/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Swordsman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 130, 550 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!
Turn 130, 550 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman (5.50)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Combat Odds: 1.7%
Turn 130, 550 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (30/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (16/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman is hit for 14 (2/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 130, 550 BC: While defending, your Axeman has killed a Barbarian Archer!
Turn 130, 550 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman (7.90)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Combat Odds: 0.4%
Turn 130, 550 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 130, 550 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Fistful of Dynamite's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 130, 550 BC: While defending, your Axeman has killed a Barbarian Archer!

Nicely done Ralph. Let's get that city settled and this army together.

I was taking a look at the capital and spotted this.

http://i49.photobucket.com/a