Don't forget binary science when we settle!!!!!!

Well, good news: we have archery (2620bc) and Osaka is size 2. Only one barb warrior on the horizon to the west...so we will have time to build 2h on archer and rush it next turn before the barb warrior arrives. While Osaka was size 2 and I had finished the warrior, I started a worker. It has 10h/90 completed.

Bad news: settling in 3010 kinda messed up my micro-management in Kyoto and I think SH will be built in 1480 now (rather than 1510). Also had to delay whipping the 3rd workboat for commerce...to make sure we got archery in 2620...so I did not have turns to explore north.

WHOEVER IS NEXT: I have turned on 'emphasize food' in Kyoto to make unhappy citizens coming back to work go to sea tiles rather than produce 1h. We need this until SH is finished. Just a FYI...

Attached a screenshot and I will upload the game to the results page shortly.

edit/ps: someone also founded Hinduism during my turns 2830bc I think...

cas

Great work!!! Well done:goodjob:

Good work sir!:goodjob:

I think I am up?

What's the plan:

Tech Path: Mysticism>Pottery?
Build: Osaka = Worker>Archer>Barracks?
Kyoto = WB>SH?
General Strategy: Secure SH and defense, explore NE, and try to expand?

How many turns do we have each turn?

Nice going so far :goodjob:

There may not be enough time for building a worker. We have to get another archer built. They will be coming in 3s by 2500BC. We should be able to grow to size 4 then whip a worker after we have some defense.

Looking good on the power graph :)

@johnpaulcain: I would suggest you wait 24 hours before playing to give everyone a chance to think about and comment on strategy. I agree with Murky about getting another archer and whipping the worker when size 4. Best of British luck to you sir!!!!:salute:

@cas: So the plan for Kyoto should be to assign each pop to work the sea (should happen automatically) and whip SH when we are size 8 and have <88 hammers to go in Kyoto? If we get the hammers before getting to size 8, I guess we should start something else (?a granary) and switch back to SH and whip when we've grown. Do we finish the 4th WB or switch to SH once we have Myst?

OMG!!! Commerce-otopia!!!!!

Well - after see the whole area - this position is definately the best. ;)

Who's next on moving ? :rolleyes:

Regards all

Did we agree on 15 turns each?

johnpaulcain (On Deck)
Mitiu Ioan
nfora
Riker (Currently MIA)
Murky
Big Pig
Cas

Let's not rush through the early part of the game. It is the most critical. Once we have established a strong lead then each person's turn can be played with less discussion.

How does this sound for start?

Tech Strategy: Mysticism>
Build Strategy:
Kyoto = WB>SH
Osaka = I think whip Worker, then go archer. The warior has a 2-5% chance of winning and we have 2 dont we?
City Placement: Not critical at the moment.
Current Objectives: Get SH.
Points to remember: Binary Science,

I won't play until tomorrow night to make sure we are all singing from the same hymn sheet. We are supposed to post turn logs I think, Turn 1 did this, Turn 2 this e.t.c. We should start doing this from now on?

I won't play until tomorrow night to make sure we are all singing from the same hymn sheet. We are supposed to post turn logs I think, Turn 1 did this, Turn 2 this e.t.c. We should start doing this from now on?

If you want to you can. There is also the autolog feature which could be a time saver.

@cas: So the plan for Kyoto should be to assign each pop to work the sea (should happen automatically) and whip SH when we are size 8 and have <88 hammers to go in Kyoto? If we get the hammers before getting to size 8, I guess we should start something else (?a granary) and switch back to SH and whip when we've grown. Do we finish the 4th WB or switch to SH once we have Myst?

Yes, johnpaulcain, please follow my strategy (below) in Kyoto. I tested this about 10 different ways and this is best. Unfortunately, I f'd us by losing a couple of food during 1 of my turns :mad: ...which is going to delay SH by 1 turn longer than originally expected. There will be 1-2 turns to build something else when SH reaches 92 or 93 hammers. There is a little wiggle room around 1600BC.

Kyoto:
-----------------------------------------------------------
build workboat#4 until it is 44/45 hammers (should be 2290bc). Do not whip it before that even though it is tempting. Whipping it early will not gain you anything due to unhappiness and I believe it actually loses a couple of food overall. Myst should be discovered by 2290BC or earlier.
2260 wb#4 move to second crab and boat it. build switched to SH.
2230-1570ish no change. Continue building SH.
1600 this is a good time to check our progress. There may be some wiggle room in the next couple of turns to start another build or move 1cit off a sea square to a hammer.
1510 Kyoto reaches 8pop, 92-93h/180 complete on SH. Whip 4 pop to finish.
1480 SH appears on our tiny island.
------------------------------------------------------------

cas

I think we should start build on a archer in Osaka. You don't have to whip it (IMHO) until you have an archer next to our city (or 2 warriors). If you whip, it will be built before the battle the next turn. Use any overflow for a worker. After overflow goes to worker, switch back to another archer, I think. The barbies are going to start coming in waves of 2-3 every couple of turns and it will be a mix of warrior/archers.

If we let our existing warrior with 1/2 xp (from lion) battle the barb warrior on the horizon, he will get 2/2 xp for a promotion. Not sure how to ensure the warrior with 1xp already gets the battle...maybe keep him fortified and unfortify the other warrior we just built.

Tech path obviously Myst next. I'm curious to hear other peoples' opinions for what to research next and why.

cas

Sounds good cas. There should be a little wiggle room in there someplace.

Kyoto:
-----------------------------------------------------------
build workboat#4 until it is 44/45 hammers (should be 2290bc). Do not whip it before that even though it is tempting. Whipping it early will not gain you anything due to unhappiness and I believe it actually loses a couple of food overall. Myst should be discovered by 2290BC or earlier.
2260 wb#4 move to second crab and boat it. build switched to SH.
2230-1570ish no change. Continue building SH.
1600 this is a good time to check our progress. There may be some wiggle room in the next couple of turns to start another build or move 1cit off a sea square to a hammer.
1510 Kyoto reaches 8pop, 92-93h/180 complete on SH. Whip 4 pop to finish.
1480 SH appears on our tiny island.
------------------------------------------------------------



Just to clarify:
Build WB4 to 44/45 hammers (do not complete!!)
Whip WB4 when we have Myst (not before!!!) and switch to SH
If WB4 =44/45 hammers before Myst, build something else for a few turns - but remove this build from the build queue before whipping WB4 or the extra hammers will go to it and not SH

Correct?

Just to clarify:
Build WB4 to 44/45 hammers (do not complete!!)
Whip WB4 when we have Myst (not before!!!) and switch to SH
If WB4 =44/45 hammers before Myst, build something else for a few turns - but remove this build from the build queue before whipping WB4 or the extra hammers will go to it and not SH

Correct?

Would there be sufficient time to build a warrior or archer in there someplace?

What do you guys think of getting animal husbandry after myst?

What do you guys think of getting animal husbandry after myst?

I think we have 3 attractive options:

1. pottery>writing.
Allows us to build/whip a library in Kyoto and use a couple of pop as scientist specialists. In my tests this can be done reasonably quickly and gives a decent chance of generating a Great Scientist in Kyoto for an academy
2. AH
Shows us where the horses are for a possible HA rush, and allows us to work the sheep around Osaka in due course
3. Sailing
Allows us to build galleys and utilize the islands north of Kyoto. (Maybe this is less urgent - we could be building the settler and worker beforehand in readiness)
I don't think the religious techs are a priority and IW is too far away at present

I would vote for pottery>writing for cottages, library, open borders (for religion spread and the chance of an academy)

Anyone keeping tabs on Isabella, her power and number of cities?

Just to clarify:
Build WB4 to 44/45 hammers (do not complete!!)
Whip WB4 when we have Myst (not before!!!) and switch to SH
If WB4 =44/45 hammers before Myst, build something else for a few turns - but remove this build from the build queue before whipping WB4 or the extra hammers will go to it and not SH

Correct?

Myst should be finished by 2290BC when the wb#4 reaches 44/45 hammers. I cannot think of ANYTHING that would keep us from discovering it by 2290BC. If for some odd reason that happens, do not finish the wb#4. Start something else and then go back to whip it with SH in the qeue once we discover Myst.

Murky...no, there is no time for anything else. The wiggle room at the end is very small (1-2 turns of build cycle).

I'm in favor of Myst->AH->writing. I don't see how we're going to use Pottery that fast unless it's a granary...and I'd rather know where the horses are.

Once we have some defense, I'm thinking we should send a archer or warrior east to try a worker steal from Isabella and scout the territory to the east.

cas

We are supposed to post turn logs I think, Turn 1 did this, Turn 2 this e.t.c. We should start doing this from now on?

When you submit the game, it will automatically generate a turn log for you. Mine was rather dull (3700BC: you have discovered mining; 3370BC: you have built a WB in Kyoto; 3160BC: you have discovered BW) so I elected not to post it. But yes, a turn log would be useful (I suspect yours will be: 2500BC: fought off bard warrior; 2470: fought off barb archer; 2440: fought off barb warrior etc;) )

I'm in favor of Myst->AH->writing

Forgot that was an option:blush:
Yes, AH>writing is best

OK guys I get the general idea.:)

With regard to Osaka I proposed to continue building worker until it can be whipped. Not sure how many turns this will be (about 8) but it will enable us to get the grassland hills mined and producing an archer will be quicker. We can then get an archer out (about 10 turns). Opposed to 13 turns if we dont get worker. After that it will take 8 turns as opposed to 13 each time. These are very rough, I will do a more detailed strategy for you if you want proof.

The thing is guy's our safety strategy is good, but I think we are being overcautious and this will stifle our growth big time. If you download some GOTM you will see that all the best players beeline for alphabet and produce workers first.

Look forward to your comments!

With regard to Osaka I proposed to continue building worker until it can be whipped.

You mean switch from actual producing archer to worker ? :rolleyes:

Anyway - I generally agree this idea. We need to take some risks ( like, for example, using first warrior to explore a little bit after first archer is produced ) in order to take advantage from luxuries around Osaka ... :mischief:

Regards all

P.S. : How many warriors we have in Osaka ? 1 or 2 ?

Yes, then whip it as soon as I can, then switch straight back to archer and chop forest with worker. I haven't looked at the save in detail but I think this would be the best option. I plan to do a better analysis before I play tonight so you can all compare and make a decision. If you look at the power graph we are way ahead of other teams. i.e I think we are being cautious enough.

By the way with Japan don't our units start with 4/5 exp not 0?

How does this sound for a plan?:

1 2620 Change citizen to work grassland forest instead of gems, change to worker
2 2590
3 2560
4 2530
5 2500
6 2470 Whip Worker
7 2440 Switch citizen to work grassland forest, build archer
8 2410 Chop Forest
9 2380
10 2350
11 2320 Workboat at 44/45 - Switch to SH
12 2290 Chop Finished - Archer Finished plus 22/37 for next archer, growth at 10/36, switch to Oasis, 9 turns to growth, worker goes to mine hill
13 2260
14 2230
15 2200

JP

By the way with Japan don't our units start with 4/5 exp not 0?

Mmmm ... no. Our warriors will have +20% strenght ( 1 combat ) for free - but I belive that our archers will have 0 exp at start ( don't know exactely ) :rolleyes:

{...}
12 2290 {...}worker goes to mine hill


Why the gold on the hill and not the gems on the grassland ?

I mainly agree with this - but when start to scout again a little bit more ? ;)

Regards

Mmmm ... no. Our warriors will have +20% strenght ( 1 combat ) for free - but I belive that our archers will have 0 exp at start ( don't know exactely ) :rolleyes:

Your right, I just checked the save game. :goodjob:

Don't know where I got that from!?!:blush:

Why the gold on the hill and not the gems on the grassland ?

I mainly agree with this - but when start to scout again a little bit more ? ;)

The grasslands will give us the extra food tile, but I don't mind mining the gold tile it just gives 1 less food, but 7 more commerce is "tres bien"!:)

By the way guys I signed up about 4 years ago and my username is rubbish, it's basically my whole name! John-Paul Cain. Feel free to use jp for short.;)

I think we should start build on a archer in Osaka. You don't have to whip it (IMHO) until you have an archer next to our city (or 2 warriors). If you whip, it will be built before the battle the next turn. Use any overflow for a worker. After overflow goes to worker, switch back to another archer, I think. The barbies are going to start coming in waves of 2-3 every couple of turns and it will be a mix of warrior/archers.

I am 100% with cas on this one

@Johnpaulcain: I can understand the logic of wanting to get the grassland hill mined to increase hammers and get other improvements in the pipeline but I think your proposed strat is a mistake for the following reasons:

1. City Defence. In the next few turns the barb onslaught will begin and as cas says, we will be seeing warriors and archers at the rate of 1 or 2 per turn (at least!!). Two warriors in Osaka will be insufficient to protect against this many barbs - sure they should win the first 4 or 5 battles but by then they will both be injured and at high risk of being defeated. And even a full strength fully fortified warrior in Osaka with combat 1 and antiarchery 1 (?cover) has a ~15% chance of losing to a barb archer - with a few injuries this chance rises considerably. We need archers to be confident of defeating barb archers.

6 2470 Whip Worker
7 2440 Switch citizen to work grassland forest, build archer
8 2410 Chop Forest
9 2380
10 2350
11 2320 Workboat at 44/45 - Switch to SH
12 2290 Chop Finished - Archer Finished

This part of the plan is particularly dangerous. Whipping out the worker will put us to Size 1. This means we have no way of whipping out an emergency archer until we regrow to Size 2

2. Worker/Improvement defence. As noted above, 2 warriors is unsufficient to defend Osaka against waves of archers. It is therefore even less sufficient to protect Osaka and the worker and any improvements the worker has built.

3. Best use of food yield. When building a worker 1F=1hammer (and there is no growth). However it takes ~11-13F to grow to from size 1 to size 2 or size 2 to size 3 - and whipping 1 pop produces 45 hammers. So with whipping 1F=3.5-4 hammers (approx). Thus the best use of our food yield is to whip the worker, not build it. This can be done as cas suggests by whipping a couple of archers and using the overflow production from the whip towards a worker.

My vote would be to get out a couple of archers - build them as much as poss, and whip when 1 or 2 h from completion if poss to maximise overflow (or when Osaka reaches size 3?) - then consider finishing off the worker. With an archer protecting it, it should be in little danger from the barbs

Just a ( stupid ) question : when we could use warrior(s) for fog-busting and, this manner, to push barb-generation further from our secondary city ?

Could we just wander under the hills near east and south east with an warrior ? I REALLY hate stay with both of them in Osaka and do/explore nothing for more than 20 turns from now on ... :(

Regards

1. City Defence. In the next few turns the barb onslaught will begin and as cas says, we will be seeing warriors and archers at the rate of 1 or 2 per turn (at least!!). Two warriors in Osaka will be insufficient to protect against this many barbs - sure they should win the first 4 or 5 battles but by then they will both be injured and at high risk of being defeated. And even a full strength fully fortified warrior in Osaka with combat 1 and antiarchery 1 (?cover) has a ~15% chance of losing to a barb archer - with a few injuries this chance rises considerably. We need archers to be confident of defeating barb archers.

This part of the plan is particularly dangerous. Whipping out the worker will put us to Size 1. This means we have no way of whipping out an emergency archer until we regrow to Size 2

2. Worker/Improvement defence. As noted above, 2 warriors is unsufficient to defend Osaka against waves of archers. It is therefore even less sufficient to protect Osaka and the worker and any improvements the worker has built.

3. Best use of food yield. When building a worker 1F=1hammer (and there is no growth). However it takes ~11-13F to grow to from size 1 to size 2 or size 2 to size 3 - and whipping 1 pop produces 45 hammers. So with whipping 1F=3.5-4 hammers (approx). Thus the best use of our food yield is to whip the worker, not build it. This can be done as cas suggests by whipping a couple of archers and using the overflow production from the whip towards a worker.

My vote would be to get out a couple of archers - build them as much as poss, and whip when 1 or 2 h from completion if poss to maximise overflow (or when Osaka reaches size 3?) - then consider finishing off the worker. With an archer protecting it, it should be in little danger from the barbs

Point 1: I have never played with raging barbs before and must admit I didn't think we would have 2 attacking every turn. I also find this unlikely in the next 15 turns. However, I am happy to go along with you guys but will be upset if at the end of 20 turns I have had less than 10 attacks, you are proposing about 20 barbs in the next 15 turns (2 per turn for 10 turns):confused:

Point 2: If you are right about point 1 then fair comment.

Point 3: I did propose whipping worker straight away, it is always efficient to whip early or late, not in the middle. I was then going to chop straight away for an archer, which as you can see will be 12 turns in.

It will be 2 turns till the barb attacks, and in the next 10 turns I think it's unlikely that our warriors will be in any trouble, but if you think in the 10 turns after the first barb attack (which we will win) that we are gonna have more than 4 archers attack us then OK, lets play safe.:) As I said, to my knowledge I haven't played raging barbs before. I may test later.

Just a ( stupid ) question : when we could use warrior(s) for fog-busting and, this manner, to push barb-generation further from our secondary city ?

Could we just wander under the hills near east and south east with an warrior ? I REALLY hate stay with both of them in Osaka and do/explore nothing for more than 20 turns from now on ... :(

Regards

Fog busting will be OK, but if barb archers start coming in droves then the warriors can be overwhelmed pretty quick. Although I would like to send the warriors out as decoys on forest hills, AI is dumb and will lose a fair few!

Point 1: I have never played with raging barbs before and must admit I didn't think we would have 2 attacking every turn. I also find this unlikely in the next 15 turns. However, I am happy to go along with you guys but will be upset if at the end of 20 turns I have had less than 10 attacks, you are proposing about 20 barbs in the next 15 turns (2 per turn for 10 turns):confused:


I don't think it would hurt us too badly to be a bit paranoid at this point... even if we don't get hit as badly by the barbarians as we fear, it isn't as though the hammers would be wasted. If nothing else we can use the units for barbwatch.

Although I would like to send the warriors out as decoys on forest hills, AI is dumb and will lose a fair few!

Exactly !! Any barbs showing up from that direction will attack that warrior and we will have even better odds that defending in Osaka. ;)

I'm also not familiar with "raging barbarians" option - but isn't possible somehow to "move the battles" for some turns ( until chopped our first archer following your initial plan ) from Osaka to nearby forests/hills ? :mischief:

Regards all

In most of my test games, even with fog-busting like crazy there were still many barbarian attacks. We lack fog-busters at this point so I would definately expect an onslaught.

@JP I can post a practice at 2600BC with these raging barb settings this evening if you like. The main differences with raging barbs are:
1. More barbs spawning
2. Barbs enter your cultural boundaries immediately (this doesn't happen in regular games until ~?1500 BC)

I am happy to go along with you guys but will be upset if at the end of 20 turns I have had less than 10 attacks

I'll be elated if we have less than 10 attacks:)

if you think in the 10 turns after the first barb attack (which we will win) that we are gonna have more than 4 archers attack us then OK, lets play safe.

Honestly, I think the chances of that are at least 50:50

Our warrior in Osaka should be eligible for a promotion in a couple of turns (I hope!).

I would suggest Medic 1 to allow faster healing of our units between atacks - although Cover (+25% vs archers) or Guerilla 1 (+20% hill defence) have their attractions too

Our warrior in Osaka should be eligible for a promotion in a couple of turns (I hope!).

I would suggest Medic 1 to allow faster healing of our units between atacks - although Cover (+25% vs archers) or Guerilla 1 (+20% hill defence) have their attractions too

It should depend on how far away our archer is when he has the xp... if we have a while to wait Cover is the best bet, but if it's only a short wait Medic 1 will work better.

It should depend on how far away our archer is when he has the xp... if we have a while to wait Cover is the best bet, but if it's only a short wait Medic 1 will work better.

As we're size 2, we can poprush an archer whenever it is needed - i.e. when there is a barb archer adjacent to the city

With pop-rushing on epic I know we get 45 hammers per pop - but is the overflow calculated as multiples of 30 or 45?

If you take a look at the power level of the leading teams on the Progress and Results page, it looks like they are going heavy military to fend off the raging barbarians.

As we're size 2, we can poprush an archer whenever it is needed - i.e. when there is a barb archer adjacent to the city

With pop-rushing on epic I know we get 45 hammers per pop - but is the overflow calculated as multiples of 30 or 45?

I thought it was 44 hammers in Epic? Not sure. Overflow should be the same.

It would be great if you can get me the test game, would be useful to find out!:)

Based on discussion; 3 for Archer first, 2 for worker with Murky as the deciding vote I think? If he vote's for or against then he still has to make the decision as team leader!:worship:

Unless riker rises from the dead!

If we go Archer we may as well continue building normally as we grow in 12 and complete in 13, we can then build worker until it take 1 pop to whip, then the spare pop can be used to whip another archer if needed. Does this sound OK, it will be after my turns are up though!

I am also up for some decoy tactics with warrirors on forest hills!

If you take a look at the power level of the leading teams on the Progress and Results page, it looks like they are going heavy military to fend off the raging barbarians.

It also looks as though we've built our military up faster.

I thought it was 44 hammers in Epic? Not sure. Overflow should be the same.

It would be great if you can get me the test game, would be useful to find out!:)

Based on discussion; 3 for Archer first, 2 for worker with Murky as the deciding vote I think? If he vote's for or against then he still has to make the decision as team leader!:worship:

Unless riker rises from the dead!

If we go Archer we may as well continue building normally as we grow in 12 and complete in 13, we can then build worker until it take 1 pop to whip, then the spare pop can be used to whip another archer if needed. Does this sound OK, it will be after my turns are up though!

I am also up for some decoy tactics with warrirors on forest hills!

In my test games the raging barbs will ignore decoys and go straight for your city or worker if you have one out.

Putting some fog-busters out will cut down on their numbers.

It also looks as though we've built our military up faster.

That's my point, I feel we are being overcautious! Oh Well.

We have the highest power at our year. We may suffer a few years for this.

The culture graph is interesting. It looks like CFR might have gone for a very early stonehenge. Given how high their overall score is, that gives me hope that stonehenge is the right move for us at this stage.

It also looks as though we've built our military up faster.

We have the highest power at our year. We may suffer a few years for this
The power (and score and culture) graphs have to be interpreted with care as only the values for each time a save game is submitted are plotted and then straight lines are drawn between the plots (which is why our plots for example are 2 straight lines with a kink at 3160BC). All you can meaningfully compare are the value of our power at the save points with the value of other teams that saved around the same time. The steepness of the power line in our graph can only be compared with the steepness of other teams' graphs if the save points are at the same dates

The culture graph is interesting. It looks like CFR might have gone for a very early stonehenge. Given how high their overall score is, that gives me hope that stonehenge is the right move for us at this stage.
or Hinduism/Buddhism

or Hinduism/Buddhism

Could also just be Myst+Obelisk or Pottery->writting+Library

It's 200 culture in around 35 turns. A religion wouldn't give that much, nor would just an obelisk.

It would be great if you can get me the test game, would be useful to find out!:)


Sure thing - will be about 8pm or so if that is ok

If we go Archer we may as well continue building normally as we grow in 12 and complete in 13, we can then build worker until it take 1 pop to whip, then the spare pop can be used to whip another archer if needed. Does this sound OK, it will be after my turns are up though!

If you move a pop from the gems to a wooded grassland this will speed up the build of an archer a bit.
However, I think you will need to whip out that 1st archer before it can be built - I would do it when the first barb archer is adjacent to Osaka, and use the overflow for a worker (the more hammers we already have towards completion of the archer, the more overflow goes to a worker). I would also suggest getting a 2nd archer out before the worker - again you can use the overflow towards the worker maximising the yield of hammers per food, and you will need the extra archer to guard the worker while he is mining/chopping

Makes sense, you need to populate as much land as possible to eliminate barbs. Otherwise you will fight them for ages. We should get SH, it's only monarch and the AI will suffer with barbs too.

It's 200 culture in around 35 turns. A religion wouldn't give that much, nor would just an obelisk.
If they converted, the holy city would produce 5 culture/per turn.

And remember, they also will be getting ?7 culture per turn from the palace

If you move a pop from the gems to a wooded grassland this will speed up the build of an archer a bit.
However, I think you will need to whip out that 1st archer before it can be built - I would do it when the first barb archer is adjacent to Osaka, and use the overflow for a worker (the more hammers we already have towards completion of the archer, the more overflow goes to a worker). I would also suggest getting a 2nd archer out before the worker - again you can use the overflow towards the worker maximising the yield of hammers per food, and you will need the extra archer to guard the worker while he is mining/chopping

That depends if we get an enemy archer within the next 12 turns!:)

Don't worry I beleive you, sounds good to me!

it's only monarch

That's small comfort to a Noble player ;)

That depends if we get an enemy archer within the next 12 turns!:)


I'll remind you of this quote once you've played your 15 turns ;)

I'm lining myself up for this here aren't I!:ar15: :lol:

JPC - when will your play your moves ? And ... how is a save transmitted to the following player ? Via email ?

After all - what strategy will be used in the following 15 moves ?

If they converted, the holy city would produce 5 culture/per turn.

And remember, they also will be getting ?7 culture per turn from the palace

Hrrm palace is 2 culture/turn... so 140 culture over a period of 35 turns.... It could be a religion then, or stonehenge, or both late I suppose. Thanks for pointing that out.

JPC - when will your play your moves ? And ... how is a save transmitted to the following player ? Via email ?

After all - what strategy will be used in the following 15 moves ?
When JP submits the save game file on the GOTM web page http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm.php then the file will be available on the SGOTM results page http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php next to our team name. When he submits it, the submission page generates a shortcut which he can also paste to the forums.

Lets wait and see how he gets on before planning strategy for the next 15 turns - there is no rush

Lets wait and see how he gets on before planning strategy for the next 15 turns - there is no rush

Of course - but I had no ideea what's the procedure. :)

I'm lining myself up for this here aren't I!:ar15: :lol:

yes, you are. ;)

The barb onslaught in 'raging' settings is nasty. I had not played it before, but through my Kyoto/SH practice games I settled Osaka the same distance on a far continent and got firsthand experience. Two archers + 1 warrior(medic) in Osaka works best, in the early stages. Your archers will not have enough time to heal between barb waves, so after a few turns a SOLO archer will fight badly wounded and lose.

You will not regret having 2 archers in Osaka. It will also allow us to move one warrior out for east exploration.

Any thoughts for the promotions of the archers ? At least one of them will get to 10xp eventually. The other will get to 5xp at least.

cas

Any thoughts for the promotions of the archers ? At least one of them will get to 10xp eventually. The other will get to 5xp at least.

cas

My thought is to have one go all CG. I'm not really sure about the rest though.... maybe give one drill?

Any thoughts for the promotions of the archers ? At least one of them will get to 10xp eventually. The other will get to 5xp at least.

City Guard for 1 of them; the other we may want to use for fogbusting eventually so maybe Combat 1 and then Cover, or Guerilla 1 and 2?

You will not regret having 2 archers in Osaka. It will also allow us to move one warrior out for east exploration.

Any thoughts for the promotions of the archers ? At least one of them will get to 10xp eventually. The other will get to 5xp at least.

cas

OK guys I will probably start in an hour or so and break if anything out of the ordinary happens.

The plan is: Worker>Worker
Pottery
Leave Osaka undefended and go for OCC victory. Is this OK?

OK guys I will probably start in an hour or so and break if anything out of the ordinary happens.

The plan is: Worker>Worker
Pottery
Leave Osaka undefended and go for OCC victory. Is this OK?

Wasn't this your original plan? ;)
I would suggest switching to IW the turn before pottery - who needs stupid pots anyway? And I suspect there are plenty of underwater iron reseves just off the coast of Kyoto

No seriously, without Murky's vote I think I will do the following:

Build:

Osaka - Archer and whip so it's available to fight barb warrior, then go worker for excess and switch to Archer straight away, may then send warrior out for careful exploring E/NE. I will run if need be.

Kyoto - Build WB til 44/45 then change to SH hopefully!

Tech: Mysticism>AH?

Noting: Binary science, defend our arse!

Anything else?

No seriously, without Murky's vote I think I will do the following:

Build:

Osaka - Archer and whip so it's available to fight barb warrior, then go worker for excess and switch to Archer straight away, may then send warrior out for careful exploring E/NE. I will run if need be.

Kyoto - Build WB til 44/45 then change to SH hopefully!

Tech: Mysticism>AH?

Noting: Binary science, defend our arse!

Anything else?

I'm still for letting the warrior with 1xp fight the oncoming barb warrior so he gets to 2xp for medic promo.

the rest sounds right. when you get to 44/45h on the workboat, whip it with SH in the qeue. I think that's what you mean.

cas

No seriously, without Murky's vote I think I will do the following:

Build:

Osaka - Archer and whip so it's available to fight barb warrior archer - our warriors should be ok against the barb warrior, then go worker for excess and switch to Archer straight away, may then send warrior out for careful exploring E/NE. I will run if need be.

Kyoto - Build WB til 44/45 then change to SH hopefully!

Tech: Mysticism>AH?

Noting: Binary science, defend our arse!, remember to check Kyoto each turn - easy to forget with all the barb activity going on round Osaka

Anything else?

Best of luck

OK 3 turns in, no sign of anymore barbs. Battle won without any HP loss. What are we doing with promotion? Medic I?

OK 3 turns in, no sign of anymore barbs.
:blush: There will be - I promise!!
Medic 1 sounds best, but you can always wait a few turns. If the next 3 barbs are also warriors, then maybe combat 2 or guerilla 1, and get medic 1 at 5/5 exp?

Edit: oops - just realised melee troops can't get guerilla. On a side note Guerilla 1 is as useful as CG 1 for our archers in Osaka and Guerilla 2 is better than CG 2 (+30% defence vs +25% defence)

:blush: There will be - I promise!!
Medic 1 sounds best, but you can always wait a few turns. If the next 3 barbs are also warriors, then maybe combat 2 or guerilla 1, and get medic 1 at 5/5 exp?

Big Pig, Cas I take it all back! I have had 4 bloody warriors in 6 turns! If they were archers we would have been screwed! Well done for sticking your ground. I have good news and good news really.

We have won 3 battles with one more to come next turn. Both warriors 100% HP and I took a little wander to the plains hill 2E1NE and guess what I found! Bummer we didn't know about it earlier but no probs!

I am now at a bit of a crossroads. We can get copper with our next city so, do we carry on with AH? I have completed Mysticism and Kyoto is 2 turns from completing a WB, I will whip next turn and start SH. I am also 3 turns from completing an archer, shall I whip him with 1 to go and put excess to worker or shall I let it complete naturally?

Good work so far!
Is the warrior medic 1?
I would probably continue AH I think - the location of horses will still be useful, and we will have sheep in our fat cross.
I would whip the archer with 1 turn to go and put it towards a worker, then start to build a second archer.

The copper is frustrating - but a city on the plain hill by the river may not have been too good a site as it would have had 3 desert tiles. We have to hope Isabella's borders are not too near the copper - we don't want her claiming it. Maybe our 3rd archer (when we get that far!) should fogbust somewhere around the copper - perhaps in the forest next to it?

Whip the archer and put the excess into worker, then back to building another archer so we can keep growing (for more whips). This is more efficient in the long run.

Tough call on the AH or pottery. I still vote AH but I'm not as strongly in favor of it now that we've found copper.

Bad news is that the barbs are coming from multiple directions. That really sucks.

How about giving one of the warriors whatever promotions allow them to move double in forest/jungle. I think we will find forest/jungle to the north and that could come in useful to get to Isabella's land faster or steal a worker and run back.

cas

Sorry for my absence, busy with work.

Looks like you're holding up pretty well so far.

Score graph looking good!!!! Anxiously waiting full report!!:bounce:

I think we settled in the right place, in spite of the location of the copper. We will need to pick one of the two copper sites next, but we seem pretty well off. AH is still a good choice, after which maybe pottery->writing?

I think we settled in the right place, in spite of the location of the copper. We will need to pick one of the two copper sites next, but we seem pretty well off. AH is still a good choice, after which maybe pottery->writing?

Writing after AH is my preference. It will allow us to build a library quicker in Kyoto (mostly via whip) and run at least 1 scientist specialist. This increases the chance of our 1st Great Person being a scientist (versus a GProphet due to SH). With the GScientist we can build an early acadamy in Kyoto.

cas

Mîtiu Ioan is up next then nfora.

It may be Sunday before I can play, so take your time Mitiu Ioan. I've still got one exam to finish today, and tommorow I'm bussing it home. I'm not sure if I will be able to play tommorow night or not.

OK, all done for me, save posted here http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Murky_Waters_SG002_BC2170_01.Civ4SavedGame and we have moved into 2nd place on the score chart! Not bad. I must say that building archers was probably a good move, however no barb archers have appeared yet. Here is my turn log and a few screenshots:

The year was 2590BC and there was dissention in the tribal council! Some members wanted to develop the land around our new home with workers, but other's were more concerned with the security of there children and livestock, oh and their wives too:mischief: ! After a long tough debate JP reluctantly accepted the opinion and developped security. Thank god, barbarian swine appeared from nowhere and security was never a worry due the foresight of the wise council members biggus piggus, cassius and interflora:) !.

Turn 1: 2590BC - Switch citizen to grassland forest tile. Slider 0%
Turn 2: 2560BC - Slider 100%
Turn 3: 2530BC - Warrior attacks and loses, no damage +1XP. No barbs in sight so send spare warrior to scout hills. Slider 0%
Turn 4: 2500BC - Nothing, Slider 100%
Turn 5: 2470BC - Nothing, Slider 0%
Turn 6: 2440BC - Spy copper from plains hill!:goodjob: 2 more barb warriors appear. Warrior sent to help village. Slider 100%
Turn 7: 2410BC - Warrior still pegging it back to village! Slider 0%
Turn 8: 2380BC - Warrior home, 1 barb attacks, loses, promote to medic I
Turn 9: 2350BC - barb attacks, loses Slider 100%
Turn 10: 2320BC - Mysticism!>Animal Husbandry, Whip Archer and WB Slider 0%
Turn 11: 2290BC - Archer and WB finished, Start SH and worker, Slider 100%
Turn 12: 2260BC - Switch to Archer in Osaka, Slider 0%
Turn 13: 2230BC: Nothing Slider 100%
Turn 14: 2200BC: Nothing, Slider 0%
Turn 15: 2170BC: To be continued!

I am away this weekend guys but will catch up Sunday night maybe. Here's some screenshots. I am happy to leave it in your capable hands. Just on point I think a city 3E1NE is the spot, there is only 2 overlapped plains and copper is in the initial square. Get worker, chop settler SAFELY!

Cheers guys!

chop settler SAFELY!

Hehe - You know how safety conscious we are:p
Well done! - I think we're in a really strong position. And you seem to have got Myst and the WB in a turn earlier than predicted by our resident Kyoto-ologist!!

Still think you were bloody lucky you didn't see any barb archers;)

I really think we should get a worker out after next archer! Pleeeeeassseeee!

I really think we should get a worker out after next archer! Pleeeeeassseeee!

yes, agree with this. Not sure whether the worker should improve the gold square or gems. Gold will be easier to defend at first. Gems are on a grass, so no defense bonus.

After the second archer is out, also might consider moving a warrior down 2S forest/hill for fog busting and promotions. Will probably lose to an archer tho...

We are VERY lucky no archers have shown up yet. I'm not sure what drives that. I know X number of civs have to have bronze hooked up for Axemen to start showing.

cas

we have moved into 2nd place on the score chart!

Errrm - actually, I think that's Fistful of Dynamite you're looking at. Looking at the culture chart they seem to have got an early SH or religion like CFR

But, our score is still pretty good, and I reckon our strat with early BW/archery is better than an early religion strat

yes, agree with this. Not sure whether the worker should improve the gold square or gems. Gold will be easier to defend at first. Gems are on a grass, so no defense bonus.

After the second archer is out, also might consider moving a warrior down 2S forest/hill for fog busting and promotions. Will probably lose to an archer tho...

cas

Unless you feel the commerce is needed at the moment I think the Grass Hills would be better to mine, dont forget a road either to minimise movement if we need to pull an archer off the mine to defend city. Growth and production are key at the moment to help building army and get a settler out soon by chop rushing for the copper city. I would prefer East for this. We can settle closer and pull in reinforcement quicker.

The warrior on the forest hill will probably beat an archer 2 +85% (95% if fortified) = 3.7 Vs 3, that's if the archer attacks, it may go straight for the city.

Not sure whether the worker should improve the gold square or gems. Gold will be easier to defend at first. Gems are on a grass, so no defense bonus.

Well the gold would give 3P6C and the gems would give us 2F1P5C. If we want to work the tile while we grow the gems are probably the better bet.

Errrm - actually, I think that's Fistful of Dynamite you're looking at. Looking at the culture chart they seem to have got an early SH or religion like CFR

But, our score is still pretty good, and I reckon our strat with early BW/archery is better than an early religion strat

No it was us when I looked before, they must have just recently saved. Oh well 3rd isn't bad!

Unless you feel the commerce is needed at the moment I think the Grass Hills would be better to mine.....Growth and production are key at the moment

I'd agree with that. It will allow us to continue to grow and will be easier to defend than the gem mine also

@JP

Has Isabella switched to slavery yet?

@JP

Has Isabella switched to slavery yet?

Can't say I noticed:sad: I don't think so, but she is pissed at us still even with +1 positive for years of peace.

Have we thought about how much it would cost us to run a 3rd city?

Here are some options.

AH->Writting then build library in Kyoto and work the gold/sheep/gems around Osaka and keep up a strong defense.

AH->Pottery->then build Granary in Osaka (faster growth after whipping) then get Writting and build a library in Kyoto and get ready to settle 3rd city.

AH->Writting->Alphabet and start trading techs with Isabella (depending on her attitude) or possibly with another civ we haven't met but could soon. Some civs like to go for Sailing early for galleys. Isabella might warm up some after we get open borders.

AH->Writting->Horseback Riding for horse archers.

We should probably wait until after we get AH to decide where to place our 3rd city.

Could shoot for CoL early in the hopes of founding a religion and to build Courthouses to reduce cost.

One SGOTM-newbee question : is allowed to download the save, load it, look at the save and after this exit the game or it will be considered "multiple load exploit" and I should load it when play ( tonight I couldn't play - my wife claime their ... hmmm ... "rights to my attention" ;) ) ?

PLEASE!!! Read my posts. Am I totally wasting my time here???

One SGOTM-newbee question : is allowed to download the save, load it, look at the save and after this exit the game or it will be considered "multiple load exploit" and I should load it when play ( tonight I couldn't play - my wife claime their ... hmmm ... "rights to my attention" ;) ) ?

Please read Alan's thread for the answer.

You might want to wait until we've come up with some concrete plans for the next several moves.

Please read Alan's thread for the answer.


Read it - sorry Alan. :blush:


You might want to wait until we've come up with some concrete plans for the next several moves.

Of course I wouldn't dare to make any move until not discuss the strategy to follow !! :)
I just want to check the situation directely from the save. :)

O.K. - some random thoughts for the moment ...

1. The small islands near Kyoto seems to not worth the effort to settle there in the following ... 1000 years. :) So - I belive that building a Library there asap for 1 scientist is probably the best choice - no ?
2. Which is the mid-term tech path ? Code Of Laws ? Or should we go th Alphabet after Writing and hope to trade something with Isabela ( or other new civ ) ?

Build:
1. Kyoto: SH. Should look after itself. Will grow to size 7 in 8 turns. SH will be ready for poprush in ~20 turns (nfora's turnset). If SH built by other civ, switch to WB for exploration
2. Osaka: continue archer (due to complete in ?10 turns). Pop rush, either if necessary (e.g. if 1st archer in Osaka <2 strength and about to fight a barb archer) or in 9 turns (i.e. 1 turn before completion) > then finish worker (Depending on when we poprush archer this should be quite quick - maybe 1-3 turns). After worker start 3rd archer for fogbusting.

Tech: AH>writing (for library in Kyoto, scientist specialists - and hopefully Great Scientist - in Kyoto, open borders with Isabella - for religion spread and improved relations)

Strategy
Keep defenders in Osaka. When worker built, move 2nd archer and 1 warrior to protect worker.
Mine grassland hill 1NW of Osaka with worker 1st>then mine gems

To Remember: Binary Science - check slider every turn

What do you think?

Incidentally, it looks as if there is an island to the SE of Kyoto

Have we thought about how much it would cost us to run a 3rd city?

Here are some options.

AH->Writting then build library in Kyoto and work the gold/sheep/gems around Osaka and keep up a strong defense.

AH->Pottery->then build Granary in Osaka (faster growth after whipping) then get Writting and build a library in Kyoto and get ready to settle 3rd city.

AH->Writting->Alphabet and start trading techs with Isabella (depending on her attitude) or possibly with another civ we haven't met but could soon. Some civs like to go for Sailing early for galleys. Isabella might warm up some after we get open borders.

AH->Writting->Horseback Riding for horse archers.

We should probably wait until after we get AH to decide where to place our 3rd city.

Could shoot for CoL early in the hopes of founding a religion and to build Courthouses to reduce cost.

Agree with all of the above really. We could pre-build a settler if there is nothing more useful to build, making sure we don't complete it by totally removing from the queue. The production will still be there when we come back.

We need to get to CoL quick. We need to get the maintenance down as it will cripple us. We also need pottery to start building cottages in the 3rd city so we can hold on this until the third city is founded or the fat cross expands due to SH or early religion.

I would say beeline for CoL, if possible get pottery (i.e we have the barb situation handled). The way to do this is probably option 3 above AH>Writing>Alphabet, then try and trade for meditation & pottery (if worth it) first and preisthood next turn if possible, if we can't trade for preisthood it's not too much of a problem as it's only 90 as opposed to 120RPs for med and pot. Then it's CoL.

my wife claime their ... hmmm ... "rights to my attention" ;) ) ?

Did something get 'lost in translation' ;)

Build:
1. Kyoto: SH. Should look after itself. Will grow to size 7 in 8 turns. SH will be ready for poprush in ~20 turns (nfora's turnset). If SH built by other civ, switch to WB for exploration
2. Osaka: continue archer (due to complete in ?10 turns). Pop rush, either if necessary (e.g. if 1st archer in Osaka <2 strength and about to fight a barb archer) or in 9 turns (i.e. 1 turn before completion) > then finish worker (Depending on when we poprush archer this should be quite quick - maybe 1-3 turns). After worker start 3rd archer for fogbusting.

Tech: AH>writing (for library in Kyoto, scientist specialists - and hopefully Great Scientist - in Kyoto, open borders with Isabella - for religion spread and improved relations)

Strategy
Keep defenders in Osaka. When worker built, move 2nd archer and 1 warrior to protect worker.
Mine grassland hill 1NW of Osaka with worker 1st>then mine gems

To Remember: Binary Science - check slider every turn

What do you think?

Incidentally, it looks as if there is an island to the SE of Kyoto

We are gonna have to start calling you eagle eye pig soon! Good spot.

I agree totally with the above, whipping the archer 1 turn before completion would be best bet. The only thing I would querie is whether or not another WB will be able to explore? I think we are locked in by ocean tiles, I don't think WB can cross them so we need to wait until sailing. We could start to build any wonder thats available, the extra gold if we lose it will be very handybefore CoL . Oracle would be good but we have to wait a while for that.

I would say beeline for CoL, if possible get pottery (i.e we have the barb situation handled). The way to do this is probably option 3 above AH>Writing>Alphabet, then try and trade for meditation & pottery (if worth it) first and preisthood next turn if possible, if we can't trade for preisthood it's not too much of a problem as it's only 90 as opposed to 120RPs for med and pot. Then it's CoL.

If we get SH and if our 1st GP is a Great Prophet, he could help us get CoL

Strategy
Keep defenders in Osaka. When worker built, move 2nd archer and 1 warrior to protect worker.
Mine grassland hill 1NW of Osaka with worker 1st>then mine gems

What do you think?

Incidentally, it looks as if there is an island to the SE of Kyoto

Those gems sure do look good, eh ? Just curious how you're going to defend the gem mine since barbs are coming from that direction... They will most likely ignore any fog buster and bee-line for the chance to pillage. We only have archers and warriors, neither one of which is strong enough to attack a barb archer with high success or defend against one on flat ground.

Did not even notice the coast to the SE of Kyoto. Good catch. Too bad we can't reach it until we can cross ocean.

cas

my wife claime their ... hmmm ... "rights to my attention" ;) ) ?

Wa hey Mitiu! Their meaning more than one! I think I need to come to Romania, sounds good;) . Mind you twice the nagging:nono: !

The only thing I would querie is whether or not another WB will be able to explore? I think we are locked in by ocean tiles, I don't think WB can cross them so we need to wait until sailing. We could start to build any wonder thats available, the extra gold if we lose it will be very handybefore CoL . Oracle would be good but we have to wait a while for that.

The WB will be able to get to the islands to the north as their coastal tiles are adjacent to our cultural boundaries (which should expand again in 8 turns or so) - it won't get to whatever is SE just yet. There are no other wonders available just yet.

The WB will be able to get to the islands to the north as their coastal tiles are adjacent to our cultural boundaries (which should expand again in 8 turns or so) - it won't get to whatever is SE just yet. There are no other wonders available just yet.

edit: If there is something further north a WB would be worth it. If not, it is kinda a waste. Misread your post originally.

cas

1. The small islands near Kyoto seems to not worth the effort to settle there in the following ... 1000 years. :) So - I belive that building a Library there asap for 1 scientist is probably the best choice - no ?
2. Which is the mid-term tech path ? Code Of Laws ? Or should we go th Alphabet after Writing and hope to trade something with Isabela ( or other new civ ) ?

1: Agree
2: Agree, go alphabet

Stud!

Those gems sure do look good, eh ? Just curious how you're going to defend the gem mine since barbs are coming from that direction... They will most likely ignore any fog buster and bee-line for the chance to pillage. We only have archers and warriors, neither one of which is strong enough to attack a barb archer with high success or defend against one on flat ground.


I would hope to have a cover promoted archer from our barb battles in Osaka by then:p

If there is something further north a WB would be worth it. If not, it is kinda a waste.

Agree - but if we don't get SH (and even for a few turns after if we do get it) until we can build a library there is nothing else worth building there

I would hope to have a cover promoted archer from our barb battles in Osaka by then:p

ya, but that is only +25%. Still not great odds. Especially if they come more than 1 at a time or right after each other so you don't have a chance to heal.

I think a gem mine is almost impossible to defend this early with raging barbs. We will lose either the mine or unit(s) trying to defend it. But I'll be happy to be proven wrong...

cas

@Mîtiu Ioan

It might be useful to keep track of where barbs appear, to help us decide where to put our first fogbusters
I have attatched a map of those we have seen so far (based on screenshots posted by JP and cas)

@cas

You are right about the difficulty defending the gems. An archer fortified in the forest 1E of the gems may distract barbs. The alternative is to mine the gold hill after the grassland hill - much easier to defend but limits our ability to continue to grow while working it

Did something get 'lost in translation' ;)

:D :D
Correct !! Unfortunately ... ;)

I belive that the plan is clear for the next 15 turns. No ?

Did something get 'lost in translation' ;)

:D :D
Correct !! Unfortunately ... ;)

I belive that the plan is clear for the next 15 turns. No ?

Starting a barrack in Osaka wouldn't be useful ?

Starting a barrack in Osaka wouldn't be useful ?
I think a few fogbusting archers would be more helpful initially to keep the barbs away from our worker and the improvements. But we will certainly need a barracks soon.
Good luck with your turns:)

ya, but that is only +25%. Still not great odds. Especially if they come more than 1 at a time or right after each other so you don't have a chance to heal.

I think a gem mine is almost impossible to defend this early with raging barbs. We will lose either the mine or unit(s) trying to defend it. But I'll be happy to be proven wrong...

cas

If you look at the 2 options you can see we don't have much choice until the fat cross expands or we work grassland forest tiles:

Size 3:
City Square + Grassland hill + Gems + Oasis = 8F 6P 8C (+2 excess food)
City Square + Grassland hill + Gold Hill + Oasis = 6F 8P 7C (No growth)

We sound like defeatest's at the moment, we can't do this because of the barb's, we can't do that because of the barb's. We do have to take risks of losing a battle at some point. Expanding is more important than not losing an archer unit.

If you look at the 2 options you can see we don't have much choice until the fat cross expands or we work grassland forest tiles:

Size 3:
City Square + Grassland hill + Gems + Oasis = 8F 6P 8C (+2 excess food)
City Square + Grassland hill + Gold Hill + Oasis = 6F 8P 7C (No growth)

We sound like defeatest's at the moment, we can't do this because of the barb's, we can't do that because of the barb's. We do have to take risks of losing a battle at some point. Expanding is more important than not losing an archer unit.

Despite my 'safety first' tendencies :p , I'm inclined to agree. If we send our first 2 fogbusters east it should lessen the numbers of barbs threatening the gems

It would be useful to get some exp points for our 2nd warrior. When you can, move him to the forest hill 2S (or even the forest 1N, 1W or 1SW) and fortify him. Let him fight any barb warriors that threaten, but retreat back to Osaka if threatened by barb archers. Retreat back to Osaka to heal damage (unless there are no immediate threats).

When 2/2 exp, I suggest promoting to Medic 1 - that way, when we are ready to settle our 3rd city, we have a Medic 1 warrior that can accompany the settler and archers, and help heal the archers in between barb attacks on the new city

I would send one fogbuster north because we need to explore there anyway and one northeast. We can then work the gems first.

I would send one fogbuster north because we need to explore there anyway and one northeast. We can then focus on the sheep/gems at first.

Could be a good idea, what's the defensive bonus for defending across a river i.e on the gems tile? 25% isn't it?

We could send the archer there for now as there are no barb archers, the barb warrior may even attack it in the forest and we can get some xp. The 2 warriors should be fine. It's only 2 moves, we can get back in plenty of time and we might find out some more info!

See you Sunday night guys! Have a good one.:)

JP

Played 2 turns. Both warriors attacked and lose - our archer is now back in full health and ready to be promoted. Other warrior show from West. What promotion to chose ?

I would choose Hill Def. +1 for defending succesfully our ( future ) gold mine or Combat +1 for prepare it to wander around, but also City Defense have sense. ;)
Any suggestion ?

Played 2 turns. Both warriors attacked and lose - our archer is now back in full health and ready to be promoted. Other warrior show from West. What promotion to chose ?

I would choose Hill Def. +1 for defending succesfully our ( future ) gold mine or Combat +1 for prepare it to wander around, but also City Defense have sense. ;)
Any suggestion ?

Hill Def (Guerilla 1) is as useful as City Defence for defending Osaka (both +20%) So either of those promotions sound reasonable.

I would send our unpromoted warrior 1W to gain some exp from the barb approaching from the west

I would send our unpromoted warrior 1W to gain some exp from the barb approaching from the west

I sent it West and fortify 1 turn in forest. He win against the barb-warrior. I did this because ( interesting fact ) the attacking barb had only 1.6 health ( probably he killed Isabel's scout ? ).

I sent it West and fortify 1 turn in forest. He win against the barb-warrior. I did this because ( interesting fact ) the attacking barb had only 1.6 health ( probably he killed Isabel's scout ? ).

Excellent news. Try to intercept the next barb warrior with it too to get 2/2 exp and a promotion

9th turn. First barb archer appear from West - so promoted our archer to City defense for ultra-safety. :(
Our secondary warrior is fortified in the forest hill 2 S from Osaka. One warrior appeared from SW near it, but didn't attack.

11th turn. Whip in the last turn second archer in Osaka => first worker will be ready in 3 turns. Now I have a little dilema. Defeated archer without losses. The barb warrior moved in the forest near Osaka. He is 1.2 health. Should we try to attack it with our unpromoted warrior to obtain a possible promotion ? Odds are 69.2% in our favor ... :mischief:

Or attack it with our 3/5 exp archer to be closer to the next promotion ? :mischief:

Later edit - stupid ideea : anyway that archer will be the chosen-defender.

Great work so far

I would keep the 2nd warrior fortified - there is no rush for the 2nd exp - let a barb warrior attack it (but retreat from a barb archer)

It is interesting that a second barb warrior is below strength - Isabella must have had a few units about (not any more :) )

14th turn. Barb warrior attacked our lonely warrior and offer him medic promotion ! :)
AH researched -> switch to Writing. Something interesting appear on the map now ... ;) Red dot - possible place for our third city ?
Kyoto is size 7 with just 2 citizen unhappy now. I decided to give to one worker the status of citizen for 1 extra hammer => SH now will be ready in 35 turns, grow to 8 in 11 turns ( otherwise there will be 52 turns with growth in 8 turns ).

Moved previous turn the new archer in forest - I would prefere to fortify him there in order to get some experience if barb-archer attack it. ;)
Worker ready => start producing another archer. :)

I will wait a little bit a feed-back.

My turn finnished.

Good news :
1 warrior promoted to Medic 1.

( Very ) bad news :
We ( I in fact - because my stupidity :( ) lose our secondar archer to barbs. :(

More detalied report and a screenshot will follow soon.

I'm feel teribly ashamed for this lose. :cry:
Save is here : http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Murky_Waters_SG002_BC1720_01.Civ4SavedGame.

Report :
2170 BC - Nothing. 100% science.
2140 BC - Defeat 2 barb warriors. 0% science.
2110 BC - 100% science.
2080 BC - Barb warrior spoted West. Move warior in forest.
2050 BC - Barb attack and lose. 100% science.
2020 BC - Nothing, move warrior in 2S forested hill.
1990 BC - Judaism founded somewhere. Back to 100%.
1960 BC - Nothing special. 0%
1930 BC - 100% science.
1900 BC - Whiped our secondary archer ( I'm not sure that is the date ). Switch to worker. 0%
1870 BC - An injured warrior attacked our 2S warrior. Promoted to Medic. 100%
1840 BC - First barb archer appear West.
1810 BC - Back to 100%.
1780 BC - AH discovered. 1 Citizen in Kyoto for +1 H. Choose Writing. From SW apear 1 archer and 1 warrior "under" him. : ( Didn't check this and decide to keep our secondary archer on forest for getting experience for him )... 0% science.
1750 BC - Our poor archer defeat the barb-archer, but remain only with 0.18 health and became an easy target for barb-warrior ... Stupid, stupid me !! :( 100% science back. Move worker and start to mine gems ( 6 turns ).
1720 BC - Barb warrior attacked Osaka and lose ( normally ... ).

That is my "marvelous" turn. Hope not mess to much our chances. :(

Regards all. I go to hide myself somewhere ...

One archer isn't that great of a loss. You did fairly well.

I decided to give to one worker the status of citizen for 1 extra hammer => SH now will be ready in 35 turns, grow to 8 in 11 turns ( otherwise there will be 52 turns with growth in 8 turns ).


Whoever has the next turns can leave the worker producing 1h for 1 more turn if you want...to get to an even number (86h) but then you need to move that cit back to working the coast square so we have 4 excess food and grow to size8 by 1510BC. You could leave the citizen on 1h for 2-3 more turns, but 1F+2c from the coast square is more important that 2-3 extra hammers right now, I think.

Mitiu, we are trying to get 92/180 hammers built on SH *and* grow to pop8 as soon as possible. At pop8 and 92hammers we can whip 4 citizens to finish SH in one turn (1510BC). The 92hammers come a little before we grow to pop8...so hammers are less important than food.

Anyway, no harm done on the SH date ...unlike my turn where I caused 1 turn of delay. :blush:

cas

Whoever has the next turns can leave the worker producing 1h for 1 more turn if you want...to get to an even number (86h) but then you need to move that cit back to working the coast square so we have 4 excess food and grow to size8 by 1510BC. You could leave the citizen on 1h for 2-3 more turns, but 1F+2c from the coast square is more important that 2-3 extra hammers right now, I think.

Mitiu, we are trying to get 92/180 hammers built on SH *and* grow to pop8 as soon as possible. At pop8 and 92hammers we can whip 4 citizens to finish SH in one turn (1510BC). The 92hammers come a little before we grow to pop8...so hammers are less important than food.

Anyway, no harm done on the SH date ...unlike my turn where I caused 1 turn of delay. :blush:

cas

Am I right in thinking that we can swap production in Kyoto to (say) a workboat for 3 turns before switching back to SH? I would suggest we do this in 1630BC, switching back to SH in 1540BC (I am worried if we do it a turn later and so switch back in 1510BC the chop will go to the WB and not SH)

What do we need another wb for? It could be taking an unnecessary risk.

Great job keeping us in the game Mitiu! Wouldn't a warrior for happiness be better at this point than a workboat? I can probably play tonight after all if enough people can comment first.

Great job keeping us in the game Mitiu! Wouldn't a warrior for happiness be better at this point than a workboat? I can probably play tonight after all if enough people can comment first.

Yeah, if we do either one then I would vote for the warrior for happiness.

What do we need another wb for? It could be taking an unnecessary risk.

WB is for exploration to the N. But I suppose if we are over 92/180 in Kyoto when we whip SH we can use the overflow towards the next build instead - and if SH is built elsewhere, then we may get more gold. So, ignore my comment - keep the build on SH until 1510BC, when we should grow to size 8 and whip

Yeah, if we do either one then I would vote for the warrior for happiness.

No. We have a warrior in Kyoto, so we already have the +1 happiness bonus. There is no extra bonus for extra units unless we are running Hered Rule (which we need monarchy for). The wb can at least explore - a warrior will do nothing except increase our unit maintenance

No. We have a warrior in Kyoto, so we already have the +1 happiness bonus. There is no extra bonus for extra units unless we are running Hered Rule (which we need monarchy for). The wb can at least explore - a warrior will do nothing except increase our unit maintenance

Ah, ok. I was thinking of the screenshot with both the :mad: & :yuck: were showing.

Build:
1. Kyoto: SH. Change citizen specialist back to work coast for extra commerce. Kyoto should grow to size 8 in 7 turns (1510BC). Whip SH in 1510BC. Build WB for exploration next (the other possible option is to use overflow towards a settler - with a long term view to settling the cow island to the north). If SH built IAFL, switch to wb for exploration. On completion of writing build (?whip when poss) library - and assign scientist specialist
2. Osaka: continue archer (try not to whip if poss due to risk of escalating unhappiness due to whipping every ~10 turns). Pop rush if necessary (e.g. if 1st archer in Osaka <2 strength and about to fight a barb archer). Next build should probably also be an archer for fogbusting

Tech: writing. Next tech: ?alpha (but Isabella unlikely to trade at present), ?pottery (for cottages), ?sailing (for lighthouse in Kyoto and galley to transport future settler to Cow Island), ?meditation>priesthood (for CoL). I guess I favour pottery

Strategy
We cannot defend a gem mine at present with only 1 archer. Move worker to grassland hill and mine. Retreat to Osaka if threatened (do not risk 1st archer or warrior medics). With 2nd archer built we can defend worker more effectively

Political. After writing try to get OB with Isabella

To Remember: Binary Science - check slider every turn. Check Kyoto every turn - and remember to whip SH when size 8!!!!

Comments?

Good luck nfora!! If you come back and report you have built SH, your name will live in glory forever. If however you don't.......

WB is for exploration to the N. But I suppose if we are over 92/180 in Kyoto when we whip SH we can use the overflow towards the next build instead - and if SH is built elsewhere, then we may get more gold. So, ignore my comment - keep the build on SH until 1510BC, when we should grow to size 8 and whip

Yes, unfortunately we will not have writing yet (to start a library) so the next best option for the overflow hammers is a workboat after whipping SH, I agree. But when we discover writing, we need switch immediately from workboat to a library.

Nfora, please move the 1 idle citizen in Kyoto (producing 1h) back onto a coast square so we get 1F2C out of him per turn. We will have more than the necessary 92h to whip SH when Kyoto reaches pop8.

cas

I'm with cas and BP. Good luck.

Build:
1. Kyoto: SH. Change citizen specialist back to work coast for extra commerce. Kyoto should grow to size 8 in 7 turns (1510BC). Whip SH in 1510BC. Build WB for exploration next (the other possible option is to use overflow towards a settler - with a long term view to settling the cow island to the north). If SH built IAFL, switch to wb for exploration. On completion of writing build (?whip when poss) library - and assign scientist specialist
2. Osaka: continue archer (try not to whip if poss due to risk of escalating unhappiness due to whipping every ~10 turns). Pop rush if necessary (e.g. if 1st archer in Osaka <2 strength and about to fight a barb archer). Next build should probably also be an archer for fogbusting

Tech: writing. Next tech: ?alpha (but Isabella unlikely to trade at present), ?pottery (for cottages), ?sailing (for lighthouse in Kyoto and galley to transport future settler to Cow Island), ?meditation>priesthood (for CoL). I guess I favour pottery

Strategy
We cannot defend a gem mine at present with only 1 archer. Move worker to grassland hill and mine. Retreat to Osaka if threatened (do not risk 1st archer or warrior medics). With 2nd archer built we can defend worker more effectively

Political. After writing try to get OB with Isabella

To Remember: Binary Science - check slider every turn. Check Kyoto every turn - and remember to whip SH when size 8!!!!

Comments?

Good luck nfora!! If you come back and report you have built SH, your name will live in glory forever. If however you don't.......

Settler in Kyoto is a bad idea because we want to grow to whip a library asap. SH -> workboat -> switch immediately to library without finishing workboat once we discover writing. I am against putting another city over by Kyoto unless there is more land beyond the cow and stone we can see. That city will be a burden once we move the palace to Osaka (unless there is more land).

Agree with the comments on Osaka builds for the next turns.

The worker is already mining the gems, so I'm not sure how many turns are left. Might keep him going and just hope no barb archers come at him for a few turns ?

I'm ok with pottery then Alpha for the next techs. I'm thinking maybe mathmatics after that. Try to get 4 cities total by the time we finish mathmatics, then be in a position to chop/whip a palace ASAP in Osaka. Our economy will be hurt with 4 cities and no CoL/courthouses but if we get the palace up quickly, then we will recover quickly. Also need another worker to help chops at that point. Just some thoughts...

cas

Settler in Kyoto is a bad idea because we want to grow to whip a library asap. SH -> workboat -> switch immediately to library without finishing workboat once we discover writing. I am against putting another city over by Kyoto unless there is more land beyond the cow and stone we can see. That city will be a burden once we move the palace to Osaka (unless there is more land). Sounds fair enough. Let's defer decision on another city by Kyoto until we have explored the islands with a wb

Agree with the comments on Osaka builds for the next turns.

The worker is already mining the gems, so I'm not sure how many turns are left. Might keep him going and just hope no barb archers come at him for a few turns ? Worker has 5 more turns mining the gems. Prebuilding mine (ie stopping 1 turn before completion) is ok but completed mine is very likley to be pillaged, wasting worker turns. Grassland hill mine will likely be completed at same time as 2nd archer and will be much more defendable
I'm ok with pottery then Alpha for the next techs. I'm not sure alphabet is that much use to us unless we meet more civs or Isabella starts to get friendly - but lets see where we are after writing and potteryI'm thinking maybe mathmatics after that. Try to get 4 cities total by the time we finish mathmatics Maybe we should put any overflow chops in Osaka towards a settler in readiness for this, then be in a position to chop/whip a palace ASAP in Osaka. Our economy will be hurt with 4 cities and no CoL/courthouses but if we get the palace up quickly, then we will recover quickly. Also need another worker to help chops at that point. Just some thoughts...

cas

Comments above....

OK things seem generally agreeable..... here are my goals

1)Switch the builder to coast in Kyoto, and try to get Stonehenge
2)Go binary science toward writing
3)Build archers as needed in Osaka
4)Move the worker to the grass hill ASAP to work on the mine, to get the most use out of it
5)Not lose Osaka

This is my got-it.

Inherited turn: I swap Kyoto's bulder citizen to a coast tile, change the science rate to 0%, and tell the worker to goto the grasslands hill.

IBT: Three warriors show up.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9916/civ4screenshot0000kd6.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0000kd6.jpg)

Turn 1: I forget to put the science rate back to 100%. I don't think this cost us too much though...

IBT: The warriors move in on us.

Turn 2: I leave the worker hiding in Osaka, since one of the warriors is approaching from the west. We should be able to handle the onslaught of the three warriors without difficulty, so I don't whip out another archer. I dial our science to 100%.

IBT: Two of the warriors attack our archer. After looking at the combat odds in the log, it turns out we had a 0% chance of losing either fight. We emerge from the battles unscathed, and we hit 6/5 experience. I use it to upgrade the archer to city garisson II.

Turn 3: I leave science on 100% to make up my earlier screwup, and don't move the worker out since the last barbarian warrior is still incoming from the west. From what I can tell, Kyto is still on schedule for Stonehenge.

IBT: The barbarian warrior attacks, and as with those who came before, we win without damage. The archer is now at 7/10 experience.

Turn 4: There are no barbarians in sight, so I move the worker to the grass hill, and reduce science to 0%.

Turn 5: I up science to 100% and start mining the grass hill. Two turns to growth in Kyoto.

Turn 6: Science goes to 0%, still no barbarians, and Kyoto grows in one turn.

IBT: A barbarian archer shows up!

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/9219/civ4screenshot0002iu1.th.jpg (http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0002iu1.jpg)

Turn 7: Set science to 100%, Kyoto has grown, so I whip Stonehenge.
IBT: :dance:
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/2874/civ4screenshot0004ep3.th.jpg (http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0004ep3.jpg)

I've decided to stop here and pass on the torch. The state of the empire:
Kyoto:
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3589/civ4screenshot0006gn1.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0006gn1.jpg)

Osaka:
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7756/civ4screenshot0007kw3.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0007kw3.jpg)

For the next player: Science needs to be dialed back down again, and there is a barbarian archer moving north toward Osaka. Writing still hasn't come in.

Now that we've achieved our first real goal of the game, we should probably set out our next one... any suggestions?

Cool. SH!

Small note: now that SH is complete, we need to decide whether to leave 'emphasize food' checked in Kyoto so the 5th citizen will work a coast tile instead of sitting to the side for 1H when they come off unhappiness. I think we should leave it on because 1F2C is generally better than 1H at this point and we can manually move him to 1H if needed.

I think writing -> pottery -> alphabet on the tech path.

I have no idea what to do in Osaka except keep building archers. Should we whip right near the end to get another worker out ? I don't think we can afford a settler/3rd city at this point and we need to explore NE before deciding where to put it. But I'm open to suggestions too!

We should try to get one of our warriors woodsman I & II promotions. That would come in useful exploring the forest to the NE. Might be some jungle beyond towards the equator where it would also be useful.

cas

I suspect they will eventually be coming with axemen so we need to get some kind of advanced unit capability in the near future. We can't put off expansion too long or else there will be barbarian cities all over the place.

Turn 7: Set science to 100%, Kyoto has grown, so I whip Stonehenge.
IBT: :dance:


Great work nfora - and cas too for working out the quickest way to SH while maximising growth and commerce in Kyoto

now that SH is complete, we need to decide whether to leave 'emphasize food' checked in Kyoto so the 5th citizen will work a coast tile instead of sitting to the side for 1H when they come off unhappiness. I think we should leave it on because 1F2C is generally better than 1H at this point and we can manually move him to 1H if needed
Agree. Most of our building in Kyoto will be done via the whip. When we have library, we should use at least 1 scientist specialist tho' (at least until we have a GS and an academy)

I think writing -> pottery -> alphabet on the tech path.

I'm still not sure about alphabet. Isabella is still pissed at us and we haven't met anyone else to trade techs with. The only other (immediate) advantage of alphabet is that it opens up literature, allowing us to try for the GL in Kyoto. We can see if Isabella accepts OB with us when we get writing - if she does then she may trade techs (esp if Buddhism spreads to us) and so alphabet might be worth pursuing. At present I think IW (for obvious reasons!) or polyT>priesthood (for CoL and courthouses) would be of more use. Also, Osaka will expand to the fat cross in 15 turns, giving us access to the rice. Agriculture may be better than pottery after writing to boost growth in Osaka (sure, we will need cottages soon - but we have plenty of high commerce tiles around Kyoto to improve in the mean-time)

I have no idea what to do in Osaka except keep building archers. Should we whip right near the end to get another worker out ?

It might be better to let this one build naturally, otherwise we will get unhappiness pile up by whipping every 10 turns or so. I think the next few builds have to be archers (for fogbusting) too - and a 2nd worker with overflow hammers from any whips. A barracks would be useful too - maybe whip one with 2 pop when Osaka gets to size 4?

We should try to get one of our warriors woodsman I & II promotions. That would come in useful exploring the forest to the NE. Might be some jungle beyond towards the equator where it would also be useful.

Maybe try to promote an archer to woodsman 2 instead? Our medic 1 warriors are too valuable to risk putting in the front line, and an archer will be able to handle any barb archers it stumbles across while exploring (or Isabella's archers while worker stealing). Woodsman will also be a useful promotion for a fogbusting archer too (if we put it in a forest......). If we send 1 Medic warrior with our 2nd archer to fortify outside Osaka to intercept barbs it will allow faster healing and hopefully less need to retreat back into the city. That way we should build up exp for our 2nd archer faster

Looking at the save game, I think we can get writing a few turns earlier by avoiding binary science (radical I know, but read on.....)

With the slider on 100%, we will get writing in 6 turns. However it will be at 100% for only half the turns, and in fact needs to be reduced to 0% this turn - so this means writing in 12 turns.

With the slider on 60%, we would get writing in 9 turns. At 60% we lose 1gpt - currently we have 8 so we can maintain this rate for 8 turns. On the 9th turn we would have to drop the slider to 50% (+1 gpt) - this may still get us writing in 9 turns - worse case scenario we get it it 10.

The disadvantage is that we lose 8 gold - but I think this is worth it for earlier writing, an earlier library, earlier scientist specialists in Kyoto, an earlier Great Person (and a marginally greater chance of a GS)

BUT......

These numbers may change if we grow and alter our commerce input - so check the sliders every few turns for the best settings

Looks like you're up next Cap'n Murky - good luck!

My suggestions for strategy are below - as ever these are only suggestions and a forum for team discussion


Build:
1. Kyoto: WB at present. On completion of writing switch to library and whip when possible (preferably just before Kyoto grows to the next size up). Assign 1 or pref 2 scientist specialists to maximise knowledge and GPP. Back to wb after library
2. Osaka: finish archer2 (don't whip due to risk of escalating unhappiness due to whipping every ~12 turns). Start archer3 (build should be quicker now as we will have grassland hill mine in 3 turns). ?Whip archer3 when 1 turn from completion - overflow to a 2nd worker. (longer-term plan: few more archers and 2nd worker. Chop/whip settler. Barracks at some point)

Tech: finish writing. Next tech: ?pottery, ?agriculture (for rice). I think agriculture may be more use initially - it depends how quickly we want granaries.

Strategy
Finish grassland hill mine. Start gold mine (easily defendable, we will soon get extra food from rice/sheep to allow us to work the gold and grow) or gem mine (less easy to defend) or pre-chop a couple of forests (don't complete the chop) for future use. Defend with archer 2 and warrior 2 if necessary.
Aim to get exp for archer 2 by moving (with warrior 2) to intercept barbs - or by moving archer1 out of Osaka away from barbs (so archer2 gets the combat)

Political. After writing try to get OB with Isabella

To Remember: Ditch binary science for present (see post above) and run 60% science to get writing a couple of turns earlier (I think binary science will be more important when we have a library to reduce fractional losses in research)

Comments?

there is a barbarian archer moving north toward Osaka.
It is actually a stack of 2 archers. But if we keep both our archers in Osaka they shouldn't pose too much of a problem

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4398311&postcount=61

Pity this wasn't posted a few days ago - we might have shaved a few turns off SH (and had our exploration wb already!). Worth bearing in mind if we plan to build any more wonders in Kyoto.

Does anyone have a link to how the pop-rushing bugs with forges works in epic? I presume the same way as in normal speed but the multiples are now 44 rather than 30?

Looking at the save game, I think we can get writing a few turns earlier by avoiding binary science (radical I know, but read on.....)

With the slider on 100%, we will get writing in 6 turns. However it will be at 100% for only half the turns, and in fact needs to be reduced to 0% this turn - so this means writing in 12 turns.

With the slider on 60%, we would get writing in 9 turns. At 60% we lose 1gpt - currently we have 8 so we can maintain this rate for 8 turns. On the 9th turn we would have to drop the slider to 50% (+1 gpt) - this may still get us writing in 9 turns - worse case scenario we get it it 10.

The disadvantage is that we lose 8 gold - but I think this is worth it for earlier writing, an earlier library, earlier scientist specialists in Kyoto, an earlier Great Person (and a marginally greater chance of a GS)

BUT......

These numbers may change if we grow and alter our commerce input - so check the sliders every few turns for the best settings

What seems to be going on is that after each round of binary science we gain 2 gold. Since we're at 8 right now, after the next round we will have enough to run 100% science for 2 rounds instead of only 1. That ought to make up the difference.

I finished my turn this morning.

Turn 85, 1450 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Murky Waters's Archer (8.85)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Murky Waters's Archer is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Murky Waters's Archer is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 33 (67/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 33 (34/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Murky Waters's Archer is hit for 12 (64/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 33 (1/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 33 (0/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Murky Waters's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Murky Waters's Archer (6.75)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Combat Odds: 0.5%
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Murky Waters's Archer is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Murky Waters's Archer is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Murky Waters's Archer is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 85, 1450 BC: Murky Waters's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 87, 1390 BC: Isabella adopts Slavery!
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Murky Waters's Archer (8.85)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 87, 1390 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Murky Waters's Archer is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Murky Waters's Archer is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 33 (67/100HP)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 33 (34/100HP)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 33 (1/100HP)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 33 (0/100HP)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Murky Waters's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 88, 1360 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Murky Waters's Archer (8.85)
Turn 88, 1360 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 88, 1360 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 88, 1360 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 88, 1360 BC: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 88, 1360 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 88, 1360 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 88, 1360 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 33 (67/100HP)
Turn 88, 1360 BC: Murky Waters's Archer is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 88, 1360 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 33 (34/100HP)
Turn 88, 1360 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 33 (1/100HP)
Turn 88, 1360 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 33 (0/100HP)
Turn 88, 1360 BC: Murky Waters's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 90, 1300 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Murky Waters's Archer (6.30)
Turn 90, 1300 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 90, 1300 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 90, 1300 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 90, 1300 BC: (Combat: +10%)
Turn 90, 1300 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (67/100HP)
Turn 90, 1300 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (34/100HP)
Turn 90, 1300 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (1/100HP)
Turn 90, 1300 BC: Murky Waters's Archer is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 90, 1300 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (0/100HP)
Turn 90, 1300 BC: Murky Waters's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Murky Waters's Archer (8.27)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 93, 1210 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: (City Defense: +125%)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: (Combat: +10%)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 38 (62/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 38 (24/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 38 (0/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Murky Waters's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Murky Waters's Archer (8.27)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 93, 1210 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: (City Defense: +125%)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: (Combat: +10%)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 38 (62/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 38 (24/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 38 (0/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Murky Waters's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 96, 1120 BC: You have discovered Writing!
Turn 96, 1120 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Murky Waters's Archer (6.00)
Turn 96, 1120 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 96, 1120 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 96, 1120 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 96, 1120 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (67/100HP)
Turn 96, 1120 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (34/100HP)
Turn 96, 1120 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (1/100HP)
Turn 96, 1120 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (0/100HP)
Turn 96, 1120 BC: Murky Waters's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 97, 1090 BC: The borders of Osaka have expanded!
Turn 97, 1090 BC: The Oracle has been built in a far away land!

Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Murky Waters's Archer (9.60)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (City Defense: +125%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 34 (66/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 34 (32/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Murky Waters's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Murky Waters's Archer (9.60)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (City Defense: +125%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 34 (66/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 34 (32/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Murky Waters's Archer is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Murky Waters's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Murky Waters's Archer (8.54)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Combat Odds: 0.1%
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (City Defense: +125%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Murky Waters's Archer is hit for 11 (78/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 33 (67/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 33 (34/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 33 (1/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Murky Waters's Archer is hit for 11 (67/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 33 (0/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Murky Waters's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 101, 985 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Murky Waters's Archer (8.10)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Combat Odds: 0.1%
Turn 101, 985 BC: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 101, 985 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 101, 985 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 101, 985 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 101, 985 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 31 (69/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 31 (38/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Murky Waters's Archer is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Murky Waters's Archer is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 31 (7/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Murky Waters's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 102, 970 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!

Turn 103, 955 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Murky Waters's Archer (10.20)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 103, 955 BC: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 103, 955 BC: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 103, 955 BC: (City Defense: +125%)
Turn 103, 955 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 103, 955 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 103, 955 BC: (Combat: +10%)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 40 (60/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 40 (20/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 40 (0/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Murky Waters's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 103, 955 BC: While defending, your Archer has killed a Barbarian Warrior!

Good news:

Library built in Kyoto and some scientist specialist assigned.
Exploring Warrior spotted Isabella's borders.
We discovered Writting and now have Open Borders with Isabella.
After writting I followed BPs suggestion for Agriculture.
There may be a good spot to settle near Kyoto.
We have fog-busters out.

Bad News:

A Barbarian City popped southwest of Osaka and we have no way of taking it.
Our Research rate has really tanked on us we need to find someway to improve our GNP to get it back up.
I was going to