Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 2 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4354542) for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

This game will be played in Civ4, patched to v1.61.

You are cast in the role of Tokugawa, mighty leader of the Japanese. Tokugawa's brother has left the island city of Kyoto to avenge the death of his wife and only son. He has travelled to a distant land without finding their murderer. So the brother of Tokugawa will settle and found a new Japanese colony, and the Japanese have sworn to conquer the rest of civilization in order to hunt down and destroy their enemy.

The game is on a Standard size fractal map, modified as only Gyathaar knows how, at Epic speed. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the fastest teams to achieve a Conquest victory. The number of AI rivals has not yet been revealed. It will be played using version 1.61 of Civ4 with locked modified assets.

Individual start files for all teams will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of August 8th.

Here's the start position.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/SGOTM02_start.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Tokugawa of Japan
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Fractal, hand modified
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - YES!
Barbarians - Raging!!

Please visit the following link to ensure that you are adequately prepared:
Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439)

Notes:

A. ONLY Civilization IV v1.61 is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - victory will be awarded for the fastest victory by Conquest.

C. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

I'm sure you'll enjoy this game :D

I'm just checking in here. I've been stalking AlanH for days waiting for these threads to be posted.

As for the usual Bio: I'm 27 years old. I live in Chicago IL with my wife and 4 month old daughter. As such I'm at -5 GMT (Central Daylight Time). I'm a Computer Programmer / Consultant. I like long walks on the beach--.. er wait..

I can win consistantly on Noble, and once in a while on Prince. I'm free most nights and weekends to do turns.

Woo looks like we're getting started.

I'm 22 year old living in Omaha Nebraska currently hunting for an apartment while starting a new job. I'm also in central daylight time.

I play and win consistently at prince in all conditions. On monarch its more of a struggle though I usually can scrape out a win if I focus. Usually though I get frustrated on Monarch so I stick to Prince.

Any ideas on team names?

Hey guys, the name is Brad. I'm 25 and live in Gainesville, Florida with my wife of 3 years. I'm just starting my 4th year in a PhD program at the University of Florida studying Chemical Engineering. As such, I'm in the Eastern time zone. I'll be able to play most nights and weekends.

I find Noble rather doable, but have had trouble with Monarch and Emperor depending on how well I start the game off. To be honest though, I'm more of a builder and have never pulled off a domination or conquest win. The most land percentage I've mustered is about 30%. Hopefully, I'll be able to learn some things from you guys in this regard.

I'm not overly creative when it comes to naming a team, but so far it's looking like we're just 3 average American twenty-somethings. If the trend keeps up, maybe we should pick a name along those lines. If I come up with something I'll post ideas here.

As far as strategy goes, I think it's apperant we want to plop down here, or only move 1 square. Kyoto would make a good Science / Money city. I vote Science. So we want City 2 to be strong production. It looks like in the edge of the darkness there might be some more hills to the east. We could move east or NE. That would get us the Rice, and the hills. NE might be a bit better from Def bonus of being ont he hill.


I'm just throwing ideas out, by the way. I usually don't preface things with 'it's my idea' or 'my opinion' or whatever, it should be obvious that this is the case.

Hi there! I just got assigned here, so thought I'd pop my head in :)

Names : Well, I'm in the next decade bracket up, but then I act like I'm in my twenties, so we could still keep the twenty something thing going ^^

Game: Moving the Warrior on the hill would be best, too see if it's worth moving that way. Another possible city spot would be 1 NW, to grab the fish - also helps get us off that flood plain, which would be nice to cottage!

And realize the maintenance will be higher than normal, due to our distance from Kyoto - that's gonna put a nice drag on the economy >_< Colossus & GL would be nice to grab here, especailly for sealocked Kyoto :b:

ETA: and as much as I like that coast fish & rice spot, the hill might be better for the raging barbs - guess we'll know better once we can move the warrior! Oooh. I forgot this is not the capitol, and no quick border pop! Still, the floodplain will offer a nice food tile to start with, even if we miss the rice at first.

Lots of random thoughts to follow:

First off, even if you think I comment sounds like it should be obvious to everyone, please make it. We all need to be on the same page and some of us have different skill levels. Araqiel, are you fine with being team capitan, or should one of us step up to do it? If no one else wants to, I could probably do it. In the next week, we need to decide a play order and how many turns we'll each play.

Names - Maybe I'm just in a weird mood, but I nominate the following two names:
1) ILBT (I Like Big Tits)
2) BallzDeep (How Deep?)
Heh, I personally like number 2, but there are a lot of team names with initials too.

Initial Strats -
Overall:
We've got to remember that the goal is FASTEST CONQUEST! This means that we need to do a couple of things. First, we need to try and always have the best military techs. Second, we need a lot of those military units. Third, we need to be EXTREMELY careful that we don't accidentally trigger a domination win, this means that we'll need to raze a lot of captured cities and probably not found many (if any) ourselves. Finally, since the map is fractal, we're going to need a navy... so navy techs are a must. The circumnavigation bonus would also really help us speed up the victory. We've got a small edge by having fishing already. If I get the time this weekend, I'll try to make a file in Worldbuilder to simulate this starting arrangement to workout some of the initial kinks.

Kyoto:
While GL and Collosus (sp?) would be useful, they'd have to be built in another city. Kyoto just doesn't have the production to do it. Unfortunately, our other cities need to focus on military so we may not be able to get it done. I don't see this as a big deal anyways since Astronomy obsoletes one of the wonders and I've already pointed out that navy techs are a must to rush. My hope is that Kyoto is situated such that, once its borders pop, we'll be able to use its waters as a bridge between our founding continent/island and another adjacent landmass.
As far as using Kyoto for science... I like it! I say we focus on workboats intially. We should hook up the fish BEFORE the crabs since fish get +3 food and crabs only get +2. We then need a lighthouse and a library (not sure which first), and those can easily be rushed :whipped:. I then see Kyoto as having a lot of food for :whipped: and science specialists. If we did go to a wonder here, I'd like to see it be the one that increases commerce.

Other City:
I agree that the warrior should scout the hill first. I'm torn about where to build the city. It's interesting to note that there is no blue circle suggesting we should build anywhere in the visible area. Does this mean none of the visible tiles are best? However, I agree that we only want to move one space, if that. I'm leaning towards NW as the most versatile spot. We'd eventually be able to grab fish and rice. I like the idea of making this second city ANOTHER science city. This would give us the huge tech boost we need over the AI. We'd take advantage of starting with The Wheel and early research Pottery to cottage spam the hell out of that river. Plus, we'd have a coastal city so we could build either the GL or Collusus if desired. I actually like the idea of building Stonehenge though, but it would take researching an extra tech. Since Kyoto is our capital, this new city won't border pop :( . If we don't border pop, then NW spot is crappy compared to hill to the NE. If we did go this route to the NW thought, then next city should definitely be in those hills. Where precisely? Decide that once we can see copper or iron. I'm not overly concerned with the barbs at this point. If we can get some fog busting warriors, we'll be fine. We've got a coast protecting us on one side.
Assuming settle to the NW, I'd suggest building Warrior -> Worker -> Warrior -> Worker -> Settler. We'd forest chop the settler because we should have Bronze Working by then. The city in the hills could also be the one to build Stonehenge... just another thought. Anyways, a hill city needs to be Barracks -> Troops... Troops... and more Troops. Eventually, we'd get the Heroic Epic here too.

Techs:
I like the idea of going Pottery -> Mining -> Bronze Working -> Mysticism, Sailing, Writing, Agriculture, or Iron Working (Depending on the situation).

Again, if I can get a Worldbuilder file made, I'll give a few of these ideas a go. For your reference, I'm attaching an image with I believe are the surrounding tiles for our visible area. F = forest, H = hill, G = grassland, and ? = ???.

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1529/startscreenwx2.th.jpg (http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=startscreenwx2.jpg)

Don't forget we need Iron for our UU, so I'm all for Pot->Mine->Bronz->Iron

I thoguht about the costal City, But the only hammers we'd be getting from Production would be from forest. And we will be chopping those (I assume) for rush Work / Set.

bshumbera's point about razing is important. We probably want to raze most cities that we conquer. the AI won't put cities where we want them generally anyway, so we can have complete control over placement.

just 3 average American twenty-somethings
You sound like three "Desperate Mouseketeers" :p

I am from California (8 hours behind GMT) and in my late 20's. I think I will be available 3-4 nights a week.

My Game: I win consistently at Noble. I tend to be a builder, prefering to build an economic platform (with a healthy dose of wonders) to gain a technological advantage which I then parlay into militaristic superiority. Tend to be a cautious attacker waiting for atleast 2:1 strength in numbers in a battle before going on the offensive.

Team name suggestions:
Could relate to our style of play (Buildaholics/Conquerers etc.)
Our level of play/age (Gen XY Nobles, or The MTV Nobles etc)

Game comments:

Looking at the map I initially thought that the capital Kyoto was only a few squares north of our settler, but looks like that might not be the case. Our maitenance cost is going to suffer considering our capitol is going to be distant from our future base of operations. We should try to relocate our palace once our base is secure from barbarians and enemies to reduce maintenance costs. Similarly, we should try to limit our expansion to a few early cities (no more than 3-4 new cities). Or do you think our Organized trait will allow us to ignore our distant capitol?

Have not played raging barbarians/aggressive before, so dont know what to expect. Do we try to slug it out in the Dark/Classical ages researching militaristic technologies to better defend ourselves, or do we sprint vertically through the technology tree Pottery -> Writing -> Alphabet with the aim of acquiring our UU early, in the meantime spamming warriors to explore the map and contact other civs and a worker/settler or two to cottage up our 2nd and 3rd cities. Can we get to Alphabet before the barabarian hordes get to us? If we can, we should be able to trade for bronze working/archery and 1-2 religious techs enabling a push for a CS/MC Oracle rush.

How do we take advantage of our capitol's resources? It's whip friendly, and can probably whip new units but we may not be able to ferry the units to the mainland until galleys (or worse) galleons are available (we will know after our first/second border expansion if we can ferry units in galleys to our base or to a different mainland). If we are not able to, once we finish whipping the basic buildings like granary (whiping), library(commerce), lighthouse (whipping) the capitol should focus on building one of the early wonders such as Stonehenge/Oracle etc.. Finding early workable happiness resources would also help.

At any rate, I dont think we should research more than 3-5 early techs before seeking Writing/Alphabet to stay in the science game.

I know that the strategies mentioned (explore, secure base vs emphasize research) conflict with each other but I just wanted to express all my thoughts (conflicted as they are). We will need to agree on a common strategy after reviewing our surroundings.

bshumbera: I'm fine with being team captain. Succession games are such a team effort its not really a burden at all.

I agree that Kyoto is going to need to become our commerce source of choice. With a healthy amount of whipping it'll be able to build its infastructure no problem. Though we'll need to relocate our capital as soon as its feasible to divert the hammers for it. We'll need to make our initial dot map with such a relocation in mind.

Have you guys played with raging barbarians before? If not I suggest you do so (just the first stages of the game) at monarch level just to get an idea of what its like. I find that archery is a must with raging barbs, bronze is a crapshoot and hooking it up can take to long. Even if you get it online fast the barbs will often pillage your roads. You also need to build a lot more units than usual during the opening. My opening style is usually just a couple warriors and settler spam, which won't work in this game.

My gut says four cities additional (including our first settler) is all we can support before we'll need to relocate our palace. Besides on Monarch when your upkeep shoots up around then.

As for grand strategy I can't say until we see if we have close neighbors. If we have someone within striking distance we should crush them and take their capital. After that barbarian pacification to build an empire with which we can take on the rest of the world. If we're alone on an island we'll need a lot of units to take care of barbarians. Fog busting will be key. I say hunting -> archery first, then pottery, and only then bronze working.

Aggressive AI's will hopefully restrict their technology trading, we should try to encourage them to fight each other as much as we can. Raging barbarians can also hem in AI civilizations very harshly.

Team names I'm blanking, I'll brainstorm tonight while I'm out to dinner with my father and brother.

How about just 'XY' for a name?

At any rate, I dont think we should research more than 3-5 early techs before seeking Writing/Alphabet to stay in the science game.

I think the agressive AI might make this less important. Since we can't count on being able to trade techs.

How about just 'XY' for a name?



I think the agressive AI might make this less important. Since we can't count on being able to trade techs.
The name wouldn't be bad, though I'd think of that summer show "Kyle XY" that they've been advertising the past couple of months. No ideas from me though.

Tech trading will still be important, we'll want to make friends with at least one war ally as a temporary measure. But that'll probably not be our first neighbor anyways.

Since this is conquest one of the keys is to get a large promoted army so we can sail around the ocean smashing each civ in turn.

I vote no on "XY" if we can avoid it. A quick Google search yields XY Magazine as the first hit. It's a magazine "Dedicated solely to the interests and needs of young gay men." :rolleyes:

Some random team names:

Creative Issues
Creeping Death
Farfromwinnin
Needs Therapy
FUBAR
We Stink
Here4Beer
Who Cares
Leftovers
Will Loose 4 Beer
Unknown Wonders
Half Fast
Scorgasm

Tech trading will still be important, we'll want to make friends with at least one war ally as a temporary measure. But that'll probably not be our first neighbor anyways.

Tech trading will be tricky. We'll likely not end up trading with the first AI or two we meet, other than to possibly sue for tech/peace if the price is good enough. I've never had issues with Barbs before, but if you guys really want to pursue archery early then we can. Personally, I don't think I've ever actually researched archery, but maybe we should. So, I propose our tech tree look like this:

Hunting (maybe) -> Archery (maybe) -> Mining -> Bronze Working -> Iron Working -> Pottery (maybe before Iron) -> beline straight to construction for the catapults. Then we'd look at CS for our UU and finally look towards boats. We need to get some caravels out early to ensure circumnavigation bonus and to locate AI civs. We may want to stick sailing up around Pottery so that we can get some lighthouses up and get a jump on heading towards compass and optics. Sailing won't be easy to trade for too early. Whatever we do... we should never trade away techs that would give away our military advantage!!!

I like 'Will lose 4 beer'.

I plan on running a few sims this weekend with the game settings the same. Of course, we don't know how many rival civs there will be out there.

I'm here, checking in finally...

Araqiel, disregard the PM.

I'm 31, wife, first child on the way, living in California. That being said, I'm very comfy w/ Prince, 50-50 on Monarch. No suggestions on names, anything works for me.

I've just found this thread, so strategy suggestions will have to come later. I almost always play raging barbs, so I will chime in that, sans copper, archery is muy importante. They'll come at us in waves of 4-6 at a time, with archers, not warriors.

That's it for now. I'm available to play almost any night/weekend.

Araqiel, since I've no experience w/ (S)GOTM's, I'd like to be moved down the player list order, I don't want to be second. Also, I don't know how to post screenshots or do dot-maps at this time, so instructions will be necessary.

Cheers all,
Battch

Names: I'm kinda fond of FUBAR myself :lol:

Kyoto: Whoops, yeah should've clarified I meant to build Col/GL on the main continent to help Kyoto, not build them in Kyoto itself :blush:

Hunting -> Archery first seems like a no brainer to me, esp with raging barbs. We do need Iron eventually, but we'll need $$$ to support those guys, so slipping Pottery in the lineup before IW/Cats/CS seems the about right spot. The barbs would probably raze 'em all before Axemen anyway.....

What's the first build order then? Warriorfest until archery kicks in, and then start kicking out protected by archer/warr (or archer/archer) settlers?

but we'll need $$$ to support those guys, so slipping Pottery in the lineup before IW/Cats/CS seems the about right spot.

Ahh... but if we go Warriorfest (TM by Makahlua) followed by archers, then Pottery makes no sense. We would need a worker to take advantage of this tech. This begs the question, if situated close to an AI, do we try to worker steal with our warrior? This would force us into an early war, but might kick-start our economy. Also, we want to time our first settler with BW/IW so we can found a city near one (if not both) of those resources.

Woo, I tm'd something \o/

Anyway, the Warriorfest isn't locked in, you could always slip in a worker there somewhere. Or steal one! :mischief: The rest of that plan sounds good, esp the settler timing (BW for sure, we can always setup another for IW)

I know you were going to do this WB file, but I had some spare time, so I did ^^ I did notice the resource arrows pointing, up, that places us in the southern hemisphere. And the settling party is maybe 5-7 squares S of Kyoto, but about half the map away, as close as I can approximate.

And noone's yet pointed out the evidence of more coast N of Kyoto - I wonder if we can colonize there too, and maybe put the FP on the other continent?

And the settling party is maybe 5-7 squares S of Kyoto, but about half the map away, as close as I can approximate.

How do you figure this? The screens are two separate images, not one continuous screenshot. If you look at the map in the top right of the lower image, it looks like we are quite more than 5-7 squares S of Kyoto. Indeed, we are way more W of Kyoto than S. Using a handy-dandy ruler, I'd estimate that we are about 9-11 squares W and 2-4 squares S of Kyoto. This would have more effect on upkeep costs than the 5-7 squares S you suggest.

Thanks for the start file, if nothing else, it will give us an idea of what to expect with the barb settings and help us optimize an initial build/research order.

Glad you found the thread battchy. No problem on moving you out of second. We'll need to decide how many turns we should each play. More for the first two players is typical, I also usually play at normal so I'll mess around a bit on epic to figure what would be good turn amounts.

I don't think a worker steal is likely to be feasible. Just because it'll be hard to get him back home on raging barbarians. Though since we'll be pillaged more we'll likely need more worker turns.

Definitely want to build two warriors at first, maybe then go with a worker?

Oh I'd also like to say I like the name FUBAR as well.

I'm going to play my broken record one last time for each team:


Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=180489) for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

Anything I post there will NOT be repeated individually in every team thread. You may even find some useful information there now :p

BSH: Looking at the start picture, there's a minimap pasted in - on the same size map I tried to duplicate that approximate distance when setting up the test save. It's hard to eyeball :crazyeye:

Maybe 3 Warriors then a worker (2 early exploring, 2 stay at home), depending on how quick the techs kick out. And make sure to bring em home fairly soon, I'd hate to lose to barbs :X

1. We now know that there are seven rivals on the map (not including the barbs).

2. Much pixel-counting effort has been expended to try to work out the distance between Kyoto and the settler. To settle the debates, and to help your strategy discussions move forward, we'll divulge that the second city, if built where the settler stands, would cost 7 gpt in maintenance.


Anything I post there will NOT be repeated individually in every team thread. You may even find some useful information there now

Unless, of course, I copy / paste it.

7 Foes seems like a lot for this small a map, but it probably will help us find someone to trade with.

Something else I'd like to see, is a pre-play post when you're about ot do your turns describing what you believe to be the consensus of the thread, or, at least, what you are going to do.

I think that it's a bit optimistic to think we would start on our own island. :D

Okay guys, big problem. AlanH posted in the maintenance thread that if the settler builds in place, then the it will cost 7 gold per turn upkeep. This is totally unacceptable IMO. It would cripple our research efforts. Perhaps, the best solution is to navigate the warrior and settler W through the hills/forest while collecting research with Kyoto. We may be able to move it in such a way that the warrior moves first to scout for barb animals and then move the settler if it's safe. What do you guys think of heading West with the settler to make it closer to Kyoto???

I really don't think you're going to save more then a couple of GP by heading either direction. Plus you may not get very far until you get to the edge.

Note that I meant to say move the settler E, not W, to get closer to Kyoto. Anyhow, I just opened that start file posted earlier and tried founding the second city. I was right, the upkeep costs CRIPPLE your research. Right away, BAM research slider set to 60%. This creeps down further as you build units... be it Warriorfest (TM) or archers. I was behind in score by nearly 700 points. As I researched Alphabet, I founded a third city and my slider finally reached 0%. It then said -2 gpt at 0% so my units started getting disbanded. I didn't finally start making gold again until Kyoto was captured by the AI. I wouldn't have had time to move the capital to the mainland if I wanted.

I think it is imperitive that we rethink founding the second city right away.

I say we focus on workboats intially. We should hook up the fish BEFORE the crabs since fish get +3 food and crabs only get +2.

After playing the test file, health becomes a big issue in Kyoto. At size 1 we are already 2/2. Fish and crabs both give +1 health, so we should hook up 1 fish, then 1 crab.

Also, in the test game, I decided to use the first workboat to scout the land north of our Kyoto that you can barely see in the visible screenshot. I then :whipped: the second workboat. I like this idea. It will give us an idea of where we are relative to everything/everyone else early. And, it will possibly point us to connecting Kyoto with our other settler. If we can do this, we may want to consider researching Sailing early to get a Galley. We could then move the settler and warrior off the start island and plant them on that patch of land N of Kyoto. What do you guys think?

I really don't think you're going to save more then a couple of GP by heading either direction. Plus you may not get very far until you get to the edge.
A couple of GPT is a big deal at this point in the game though. Additionally if we do explore a bit before settling we're saving some cash while we look for a good spot. Still its a very strange circumstance, should be fun!

Softnum: I think your pre-turnset run through of your plans is a good one. Its very important to make sure everyone is on the same page.

I did some very very quick worldbuilder tests:

Heading West:

3 squares = -6
6 squares = -5
12 squares = -4

EDIT:
Hunting takes 88 beakers
We're producing 11 (according to demo save above) That's 8 turns to Hunting if we don't put down.

Not moving at all is 5/turn 88/5 = 17 turns to hunting.

If we move 3 squares to get the -6 bonus, that's 11 + 11 + 11 = 33 88-33 = 55 / 6 = 9 + 3 = 12 Turns to HUnting

MOving 6 squares to get to -5 bonus is 11+11+11+11+11+11 = 66 - 88 = 22 / 7 = 3 = 9 turns to hunting.

Maybe moving a bit is a good plan. We would probably get 1 warrior out in the time we lost moving. and about 1/2 a population.

AlanH is asking for a name. I say 'FUBAR' is fine too.

AlanH is asking for a name. I say 'FUBAR' is fine too.

I vote FUBAR. That's four votes i think.

I did some very very quick worldbuilder tests:

Heading West:

3 squares = -6
6 squares = -5
12 squares = -4


I assume it's the same for heading E? This would give us more play if there's a coast on either side of us. Keep in mind that Hunting is halved as you pointed out if we settle in place, but that damage is further exacerbated when researching more expensive techs. At 50% science slider, I think it was 50+ turns to research Alphabet. And, moving the capital won't help here, because then Kyoto has the -7 gpt upkeep. We must remember that the goal is FASTEST conquest, so score doesn't matter (read :whipped:) and we can't afford to spend 50 turns researching an early tech like Alphabet, let alone the more expensive techs. I highly doubt they've set us up in a situation where we can't move our settler to a more ideal location. It may even involve getting a galley (early Sailing research) and picking up the settler to move him to a closer location. Besides, an eary scout workboat followed by a gally might help push us to early circumnavigation bonus.

@Softnum: Does that pattern hold true? Doubling the distance reduces the upkeep by one? So moving 24 squares would give us -3? Is the effect the same moving E? I imagine it's better moving E since we are on the edge of the map. What about 3-4 spaces N to bring us horizontal with Kyoto? If not, it looks like we want to move at least 15 squares in either direction to better help us out. I say 15 in case the game distances are a little different than your Worldbuilder tests.

I vote FUBAR. That's four votes i think.
Indeed it is, I'll send a PM to AlanH declaring it our name then.

I'm begining to think we should definitely be moving closer to Kyoto before we settle. I think the first turnset might be more collaborate than future ones given that more brains are better than one and where we settle initially is so important.

Could you also Worldbuilder check moving east? My mark one eyeball says moving NE could be economical for reducing the cost as well. Moving the capital was never about reducing our initial upkeep. Once we aquire a third city though, moving it becomes highly advantageous.

@Softnum: Does that pattern hold true? Doubling the distance reduces the upkeep by one? So moving 24 squares would give us -3? Is the effect the same moving E? I imagine it's better moving E since we are on the edge of the map. What about 3-4 spaces N to bring us horizontal with Kyoto? If not, it looks like we want to move at least 15 squares in either direction to better help us out. I say 15 in case the game distances are a little different than your Worldbuilder tests.

I dont' think we'll get 24 sqares of movement. Fractal map and all. I didn't really test that far.

I'll do some random world tests and see how they work.


I did West because we were moving closer. If you open the SaveGame up above, the Standard map size, I think West might be getting closer then east. You can't see the whole world.

At least in the setup from the SaveGame above, going east actually makes the upkeep higher once you get 5 or 6 squares that way. You get to -8, then eventually (6 more it looks like) -7 again. -8 might be the max on a 'standard' size map.


Also, it looks like you can get somewhere between 10 and 15 squares before you run into either another civ of the coast again. At least, ont eh 5 or 6 standard / fractal standard water maps I had the PC gen.

I just noticed your figures have us moving at one square a turn. We'd be moving two if at all possible. Animals haven't spawned yet so we should use the settlers two movement points to our advantage if we're looking to go westward to reduce our maintence expenses.

At least in the setup from the SaveGame above, going east actually makes the upkeep higher once you get 5 or 6 squares that say. You get to -8, then eventually (6 more it looks like) -7 again. -8 might be the max on a 'standard' size map.
Well nix that idea then. No matter what we do we absolutely need some early cottages to counteract the distance penatly we'll be facing.

Pottery!

Pots -> Hunt -> Arch?

That would be best for our short-term needs. The way I see it at least.

Then we can push units and push to UU?

Pottery!

Pots -> Hunt -> Arch?

That would be best for our short-term needs. The way I see it at least.

Then we can push units and push to UU?
Hmm I've got mixed feelings on it. Definitely those should be our first three technologies. But if we're building units first should we try to get archery sooner? It'll depend on how soon we want to build a worker I guess.

We'll need to make sure our hamlets aren't pillaged. The other question I have is if we're going to explore westward with our settler, how long is our time frame before we have to settle? Does anyone know offhand when animals and barbarians will spawn respectively? If not I'll run a test and figure out the exact turns.

I ran a couple of tests, and I plan to continue doing so, but here's what I've found so far:

I didn't see Warrior Barbs until 2500 BC. But they had archers almost immediatly after that. I was seeing Lions and such at the beginning of the game.

With my research set so that I has 7 tech per turn, I was able to get Pot -> Hunt -> Arch and half way to Animal Husbandry before I saw any Warrior barbs.

I was going War until pop 2->Work->Set but I think we're going to need to go War till pop 2->WOrk->Warr->Arc->arc for a while. Once they start getting serious about invading... It's very hard to hold them off.

With my research set so that I has 7 tech per turn, I was able to get Pot -> Hunt -> Arch and half way to Animal Husbandry before I saw any Warrior barbs.

I was going War until pop 2->Work->Set but I think we're going to need to go War till pop 2->WOrk->Warr->Arc->arc for a while. Once they start getting serious about invading... It's very hard to hold them off.

Perhaps that's why we should do Hunt->Arch->Pott rather than Pott first. Getting Arch out ~10 turns sooner will allow us to possibly have an extra archer in place before things get nasty, or will at least get us to where we are on our way to producing our first archer. Keep in mind that we're not settling in place, so barbs will appear pretty quick after we do finally settle.

During my tests, I was usually pretty safe with 2 archers per city in the early game, but found it extremely hard to keep the barbs from pillaging some of my improvements. During my last test, I just kept building early archers and used them as fog busters, stationing them on 75% defense jungle(forest)/hills. Once I had a few out, I went worker, and then chopped a settler. I moved the settler to the fog busted terrain and used those two fog busting archers to fortify defenses in the new city... rinse and repeat. At some point in there I think a :whipped: a barracks. With that said, if everyone is set on Hunt, Arch, and Pott as our first three techs, regardless of the order, we should consider going Mining -> BW after those. Then we can decide what to do next. If no copper, do we go AH or IW to get horses or axes/swords? If stuck on an island, do we go Sailing and push for Optics to get off?

Quick question on the science slider. During my solo games I use a MM technique called "binary research." Basically, I only try to use 2 settings on the slider, either on (100%) or off (0%). I run 100% until I need a cash boom, and then 0% for 1 turn... back to 100%. It's been argued that this is a more efficient technique than using the slider due to the occasional :science: loss that happens when the system rounds down the modifiers. You can imagine that if you have a library with 25% to :science:, then it's possible to lose an occasional beaker when running at say 70% on the slider. I'm not sure if it makes a huge difference in research rate, but I've read that it can shave a turn or two off of things... and if we're in it for a fastest finish, then maybe we should consider it. What do you guys think? If no one likes the idea, then I have no problem with playing different than my solo style to fit the team.

I have no problem using binary research once we get some modifiers to make that matter. Though I have to say I was extremely pleased when Warlords made science/culture/commerce/gold a two decimal calculation to elminate its usefulness.

I ran a couple of tests, and I plan to continue doing so, but here's what I've found so far:

I didn't see Warrior Barbs until 2500 BC. But they had archers almost immediatly after that. I was seeing Lions and such at the beginning of the game.

With my research set so that I has 7 tech per turn, I was able to get Pot -> Hunt -> Arch and half way to Animal Husbandry before I saw any Warrior barbs.

I was going War until pop 2->Work->Set but I think we're going to need to go War till pop 2->WOrk->Warr->Arc->arc for a while. Once they start getting serious about invading... It's very hard to hold them off.
We'll definitely need to get archery first. I also think its much more important to get a bigger, improved second city before producing our first settler than it is in a normal game. Remember the second we found our third city our maintence costs will ratchet up once again.

So are we getting another player (as AlanH mentioned) for Gary or are we sticking with those of us who checked in?

I don't have another player for you currently, and even without Gary, as long as the rest of you are in for the full game, you should be OK. Six players is optimum in my view, giving enough cover in case of short term absences, while ensuring a fast enough roster to keep players interested ... as long as you adhere to reasonable handover times. I really recommend you try to avoid losing momentum.

Yeah we have enough people, and you're absolutely right about keeping up momentum. I've experienced first hand what happens when multiple delays sap the teams enthusiasm.

Which raises an issue we haven't discussed yet, who'd like to be the scribe for the eventual spoiler threads?

So, we have like 30.5 hours before we get the save, right? (That's how I read it, anyway.)

Tech plan looks like: Hunt->Arch->Pot->Min->BW->AH or IW?

I propose we establish an order and some rules for picking up the save, etc.

I'll scribe if you like.

So, we have like 30.5 hours before we get the save, right? (That's how I read it, anyway.)

Tech plan looks like: Hunt->Arch->Pot->Min->BW->AH or IW?

I propose we establish an order and some rules for picking up the save, etc.

I'll scribe if you like.

Yeah, getting close to crunch time. I think the three of us who have been posting are agreed on the first 5 techs (through BW). After that, my test games have almost all gone IW next since there seems like less than 50/50 chance of getting copper early with these map settings. Another interesting observation from my test games is that these map settings yield 50/50 shot at having either a lot of other AI civs with you on a big continent, or you stuck alone on a small island. The former seems best for minimizing the effects of barbs, allowing you to keep up in the tech race, and almost always have an early war. However, when I've been alone, I've had a MUCH more difficult time dealing with the barbs and almost always find myself way behind in the tech race (read swords vs. muskets).

I'm all for whatever roster order/turn length Araqiel comes up with. I like the standard practice of 24 hrs to post a "got it" meaning you've received the save and have been able to open it, followed by 48 hrs to play it. We have to post the saves to the SGOTM website right? And then play from those saves. So, posting the save in this thread is not sufficient.

Okay so with the game being released very soon time to hash out the details.

Tentative Roster Order:
1. Araqiel ~ up
2. bshumbera ~ on deck
3. Softnum
4. battchy
5. Makahula
6. night_f3

I moved bshumbers/softnum to second and third respectively because they've discussed the opening in most detail, and batchy back to fourth as he asked. If anyone has any preferences let me know.

The next question I have is how many turns shall we play? Since this is epic its a bit slower than I'm used to. Perhaps 30/20/15/15/15/15? Or 20 turns for each of us would also work for the first go around. I have no idea whats a good number for epic as I've primarily play normal in both SP and my succession game.

With regards to my turns my plan is to check in with you guys as I discover the terrain around us and begin our journey towards lowered maintence costs. Its such an unusual situation that I strongly feel we should collaborate on where and how far our settler goes.

Unlike most succession games you won't post your saves in this thread. Instead you use the web portal here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) to download the save, and this page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm.php) to submit your save once you've completed.

It's early... :coffee:.

:dance: Woohoo we got us a roster :dance:.

Thanks for clearing up the web portal confusion I had. I have no strong preference on the turnset length. I'm fine with the 30/20/15/15/15/15 for the first round if everyone else is. However, the late game turns take a long time, especially when dealing with big wars, so we may want to switch to 10/10/10/10/10/10 starting in round two or three. Maybe do 15 turns in round 2 and 10 in round 3... I dunno.

Gotta say I'm a little worried that there hasn't been much pre-game discussion from battchy, Makahula, and night_f3. You guys out there? Hopefully you're still with us... drop us a line from time to time. And, participate in the discussions, we don't bite... unless you're hot biatches.

@Araqiel: Post an approximate time you think you'll play once you get the save and I'll try to be around the thread so we can stay in contact through your turns. Are you planning to play a few, save, and then wait for support? Or, try and do it real-time? Either way, I'm addicted to these forums and will be close-at-hand.

Early? Bah, I've been at work for 2 hours already (Yes, in Chicago.)

I'm down with whatever turn length is proposed. As is currently written, I get to deal with the first barbarian rushes (50 turns puts you in about 2500 BC in Epic, I think). Oh boy.

Early? Bah, I've been at work for 2 hours already (Yes, in Chicago.)

I'm down with whatever turn length is proposed. As is currently written, I get to deal with the first barbarian rushes (50 turns puts you in about 2500 BC in Epic, I think). Oh boy.


2 hours? Bah... I've been here 3 hours (Yes, in Florida). I've got a time zone ahead of you :lol:. I just wanted an excuse to use this icon --> :coffee:. Now I've used it twice :rotfl:. Regarding the barbs, hopefully we'll be able to set you up with some archers. One is great... two is awesome. My cities have all held with two archers to the barb hordes. Unfortunately, worker actions were pretty much pointless this early since the barbs pillage everything in site. I'm thinking settle -> build archers... we should have archery by my turnset. After 3 archers or so, push out another settler. My hope is to set you up with archers in the settled city to help you out with the barbs. Ideally, we'll be on a continent with other civs so that the barbs will only last a few turnsets.

@Araqiel: What are your initial plans for Kyoto? I know we have a workboat queued. This will finish during your turnset. Building off of Makahula's post (I think that's who it was), I like the idea of using the workboat to scout the coastline that is visible just to the north of the Kyoto borders. By the time the workboat is done, Kyoto will have border popped and you should be able to get up there with it. Then, a second workboat could be used to work the fish... and a third for whatever that other resource was (crabs or clams). We may want to seriously consider sticking Sailing into the research queue (maybe after BW) to build a galley in Kyoto and ferry a settler/archer combo up to that land there. The way I kind of see if playing out is in two fronts. Kyoto's front off of that land to the jnorth... and a second front with our newly founded city. We could always rush courthouses and the FP on our second city's continent.

Yeah...sorry for the silence on my part, I was gone this weekend.

Mostly, I don't know that I disagree with the general gist so far. My experiences indicate, on Raging B's, that archers are indeed of prime importance. And for better or worse, I think the settler's gonna need to be moved, as seems to be the concensus.

I, too, have basically no experience w/ epic speed, except some experimenting I've done over the last week. Gotta say, I don't like it, but oh well. And this is my first succession game, so I have no input on turn length.

I like the scouting w/ our first workboat as well, if you're sure that there's land N to get to w/o sinking. We'll know how important Sailing is after we do the scouting for a while.

If we want to collaborate w/ the first few sets of turns, I'll try to be available online here, or IM at battchy@yahoo.com, depending on what time it's happening (California timezone for me).

Cheers,
B

Folks,

Sorry for the delay in arriving. I have been out of town for the last few days without access to the net.

Quick bio - I am 33, living with my wife in Cork in Ireland. That means I will be on a slightly different schedule from the rest of you. I normally play games at the monarch level to win by space race or cultural victories. This is my first time playing a succession game, so bear with me!

I have had time now to read though all the posts so far. A few comments

1. I fully agree with the early tech plan of Hunt->Arch->Pot->Min->BW. I have played a few games with raging barbs and one of the keys is taking time to bust the fog with archers. They stand a great chance of survival when forming a protective cordon perched on strategic hills with relevant promotions.

2. While I agree that we will be hit by high distance costs with the second city, we may find that geography or a nearby rival may end up making our minds up for us.

Gary.

Welcome Gary... glad to see you're on board. I assume Araqiel will just add you to the end of the roster.

Welcome Gary! Glad to have you on board. So now our roster looks like:

Roster Order:
1. Araqiel ~ up
2. bshumbera ~ on deck
3. Softnum
4. battchy
5. Makahula
6. night_f3
7. gary_x_thompson

I agree that the terrain we discover might very well make moving impractical. We'll have to see how it goes. Since the save will be released at around 11:00 my time I will not be playing it tonight. I will post a got it when its released and will probably play two turns to explore a bit. I will then post screenshots and head off to bed. I don't know exactly when I will get off work and I have to go look at an apartment at 6:30. So right now my plan is to play the rest of my turn out around 8:00 tomorrow. Which is CDT so GMT - 5.

Okay this is my official "got it post". I'm tired so I only moved our warrior onto the hill SE of his initial position. He's revealed something interesting, namely the sheep and gems in the screen below. Not useful now as we need to move so that our upkeep isn't crippling, but gems and sheep on a river will be a huge boost to our economy. I still wonder if that due to world wrap that moving NE seems to be the way to get closest to Kyoto to my eyes. Though our test case shows this is not shown in our upkeep.

How much does moving north affect the upkeep situation? Because the warriors move has clearly revealed that we have some room in that direction if we go east a bit. Specifically we can definitely go at least 5 north and 1 east and settle on our third turn on the grassland thats we can see the edges of. If there is more land we could slip even farther north till we're parallel to Kyoto.

This would also place the gems in a practical third city site, which would be huge in defraying the spike in costs such a city would cause.

Kind of a different question here, but can you in anyway guestimate roughly how many squares S and how many squares W we are of Kyoto. I know it might be difficult through the fog, but if you take your time... this info could be quite handy. We can quickly look up how many squares wide a "standard" size map is (assuming they are always the same width) and thus figure out roughly were we are with respect to Kyoto. Furthermore, we could get a firmer grasp on exactly how far we must move to reduce upkeep to a managable level. We could also estimate whether east or west is the preferred direction.

It's bugging me a little that the GOTM staff has set up that hill that the warrior currently sits on as a city POWERHOUSE location. It's got food, gems, hills, and a floodplains. Holy cow. It's almost like they're begging us to settle in place. This brings up a valid strategy that we haven't discussed to date: we could settle on that hill... but several turns from now. We could wait until we've researched Hunting and Archery (and possibly mining/BW) and then plant in place. My guess is that we could only get Hunting and Archery before animals start to show up and we'd be risking losing our warrior and settler. Once we had archery, we'd build archers only in our newly founded cities... maybe a barracks in there since it's cheap (after the first 2 archers). We get those gems hooked up and upkeep is reduced. Kyoto will also help ease the upkeep effects. Those fish and crabs will each give us 2gpt... we just have to get the pop up high enough to work them. If I have time tomorrow, I'll play with that Worldbuilder test save to see if this is a viable option.

Assuming time (and an estimate of distance from Kyoto), I'll try to count the effects of going in different directions.

I still wonder if that due to world wrap that moving NE seems to be the way to get closest to Kyoto to my eyes. Though our test case shows this is not shown in our upkeep.

My guess is no... remember that the map isn't centered until Calendar. Therefore, only enough of the map to contain our visible land is shown. If we could count the squares between Kyoto and the settler through the fog, and compare that number with other "standard" map sizes, we should be able to guess exactly where we are with respect to Kyoto... and thus the exact effects of planting our second city on different squares.

Just heading 1 square in any direction isn't going to change the upkeep costs (At least, I don't think. The test said it took a bit further then that. We could end up VERY unlucky tho.)

The idea of just letting the Set and Warrior sit there just burns me up in side. I understand the logic, but I have to say it goes against every fiber in my being.

To my untrained eye, it look like We're somewhere around 6 squares south of the parallel that Kyoto sits on. I think this would give Osaka -6, maybe -5 if we're lucky. ANd we can get up that far.

I have to say that the square where our warrior is on looks very tasty. The only downside is that it is not coastal. The hill would provide a nice defensive bonus when the barbarians arrive.

With both the sheep, rice and flood plains that city would quickly be able to take advantage of the commerce potential in the area. Lots of wood nearby as well.

Perhaps we should move the settler SW and 2 movement hop some of the plains to scout W some before the animals show. Maybe we should just stick with our original pre-game decision and head W with the settler and hope we can nab this spot later... I dunno guys. This upkeep expense has got my early game all thrown off. I wish we could just let Kyoto get captured first turn... it doesn't appear to be an awesome capital anyways. I just looked and moving the Palace requires us to have at least 4 cities... that means that even once we start expanding, we'll be getting hit with the upkeep. We could move W as planned, and hopefully set-down in a decent place near and AI (hopefully with a metal) and try to take their capital early as our third city... I dunno.

Of the two teams who have posted their first saves already, it looks like CDZ may have settled earlier than Pioneer Knights. CDZ has a higher score and culture rating at 3400BC, while Pioneer Knights has a slightly higher power rating.

It just occurred to me that mining the gems should add +5 gold to it (double check this someone). That would make it 7 gold if we work it (1 base + 1 from river)... this makes up for our upkeep deficit. Thinking about it in this light, it suggests that waiting until Archery is researched to settle on that hill might make sense. Then rush some archers... get out a worker and mine those gems.

What do you guys think about all this... sorry for the random thoughts... this thing just has me really confused.

I have to say that the square where our warrior is on looks very tasty. The only downside is that it is not coastal. The hill would provide a nice defensive bonus when the barbarians arrive.

With both the sheep, rice and flood plains that city would quickly be able to take advantage of the commerce potential in the area. Lots of wood nearby as well.

The square SE of the warrior may be even tastier... depending on whats in the fog. Settling SE of the warrior would give 2 hammers in the city square rather than 1 I think. Then again... the culture borders won't pop to grab the resources unless we build an obelisk. This is a future issue to consider in regards to working those gems if we were to settle on that hill the warrior is on.

Gems would give:
Gems -1:hammers: 6:commerce: +1 Happiness

So I think it would make it 7:commerce: total. 2:food: 1:hammers: 7:commerce:

Grassland = 2:food:
River = +1:commerce:
Mine = +2:hammers:
Gems = -1:hammers: 6:commerce:
=
2:food: 1:hammers: 7:commerce:

Just for giggles:

Pigs would be: 5:food: 1:commerce:
Rice would be: 4:food:

I would also say that if we do just go 1 NW, we go Hunt->Arch->Mine->Pots->BW then.

I would also say that if we do just go 1 NW, we go Hunt->Arch->Mine->Pots->BW then.

Why Pots before BW? If we'd settle there... Pots would have to get delayed to take advantage of the resources. We'd need Agriculture and Animal Husbandry. We wouldn't even build Pots until those three squares were improved would we? I'd say more like Hunt -> Arch -> Mine -> BW -> AH (Or maybe switch AH and BW).

However, rather than settle that hill... if we're abandoning the move W strategy (are we?), then we should consider settling 1 N of the sheep. We could scout this area further with the warrior too, or move on the hill 1 SE next turn. 1 N of the sheep has mucho advantages:

1) Coastline -> Future site of GL or Colossus?
2) River -> Won't need to waste worker turns on roads to get resources into trade network.
3) Cultural Boundaries -> Wouldn't have to worry about obelisk or library to pop the cultural borders to take advantage of the gems that would be out of reach of the hill position.
4) Gems -> Improved gems would pay for the cities upkeep.
5) Food (Rice) -> Great for future settler builds plus :whipped:.
6) Sheep (not pigs) -> I've always loved this resource. It gives us a nice balance of commodities. Working this tile (improved) would give us: 4 :food:, 1 :hammers:, and 2 :commerce: (plus 1 :health:).
7) Forests -> Future chops.

FUTURE REQUEST: When taking screens, can we please have the show resources bubbles enabled (and maybe grid lines too). If it wasn't for the screen AlanH sent out, I wouldn't even be able to tell that there is fish in that water. Plus, I can't tell if those are pigs or sheep (I know it's sheep though cause you told us so).

The earlier we get pots, the earlier we get hamlets, etc. down, the earlier we get good money from them.


What I wouldn't give to be financial right about now. :D

The only disadvantage I see with settling 1 N of the Sheep (I think it's sheep now. But it's still hard to see) is lack of sustainable hammers in that location. Plus you get hill defense, which will help our archers.

DotMap:

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/3333/gemdotjg4.th.jpg (http://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gemdotjg4.jpg)

I think Green would be heavier Commerce, and Red would be heavier Production. Obviously, however, there's a lot fo black in the green....

True about cottaging... but using green, where would you put them? I'd much rather improve gems and sheep before cottages... that means at least AH before Pottery. Early Pots only makes sense if we go red... and that's so you can cottage the single flood plains and few grasslands.

I like green better personally. You said it yourself, green is better commerce... and we're in an upkeep crunch. We could always found a third city for production once we've got things under control. Besides, putting down on red means no gems in our culture boundaries... means we can't work them until either obelisk, library, or religion expands us. I don't feel like wasting research points on Mysticism early to get an obelisk or chasing a religion, and libraries are still a far ways away. Granted, clearing that fog N of green is looking to be mighty important. We shouldn't overlook that river either. If it leads to another good city locale to the E, then we've essentially saved us mucho worker turns in not having to build early roads.

Your point is well taken. Green looks like a good city too.

I think the Red City would push archers out like mad. I'm not sure the Green City would work as well in this respect.

I agree that the area to the north east should be further scouted. The Green city would also get some defensive protection from the river. Does this mean that we are planning to set up the city right away and defray the upkeep costs with gems?

The hills to the SE of where the warrior is could also provide a good defensive position for a fog busting archer who can easily move to other hills or forests to block incoming barbarians.

As it relates to Red v. Green, notice that it looks like there are forests in the fog borders in the squares that would be N, NE, and due E of the planned city site, which would help on the production front. As for "pushing out archers like mad," beyond 1, maybe 2 (call it 1.5) per city, we shouldn't need a whole lot more, yeah? At least that's been my experiences so far on raging B's. Are we thinking some actual conquesting can be done before we get to axes/swords, using only archers?

If we are going to dump the "bring my people home" strat of moving to Kyoto, of our early settling choices, I like green. If we are going to that site, I'd suggest a move pattern w/ the settler of NW->NE (turn 1), then E->NE (turn 2) to the settling site. We couldn't get there any faster any other way that I can see, and this way it reveals coastline info.

1 archer is enough to hold a City from barbs for a while, true. I think the idea was that A) We would use them as fog busters / Barb stoppers, and B) It would be useful to have extras to stop barbs form pillaging improvements.

It seems consensus is with Green city, so that seems fine. Just trying to provide input. :D

I agree that the area to the north east should be further scouted. The Green city would also get some defensive protection from the river.

If we are going to dump the "bring my people home" strat of moving to Kyoto, of our early settling choices, I like green.

Well... green is by no means the team agreement yet although it's looking like more and more people like the idea. I like it because the gems defraying the upkeep costs seems like a better solution than saving 1 or 2 gpt by moving W closer to Kyoto (unless there's also a :commerce: producing resource hidden over there).

The hills to the SE of where the warrior is could also provide a good defensive position for a fog busting archer who can easily move to other hills or forests to block incoming barbarians.

As it relates to Red v. Green, notice that it looks like there are forests in the fog borders in the squares that would be N, NE, and due E of the planned city site, which would help on the production front.

:agree: with both. The fog busting archer idea rules. I've been a little worried that the raging barbs will try to pillage any mine we put on the gems, but an archer here could quickly move to the forest S of the sheep and attack a barb before the pillage.

Does this mean that we are planning to set up the city right away and defray the upkeep costs with gems?

If we are going to that site, I'd suggest a move pattern w/ the settler of NW->NE (turn 1), then E->NE (turn 2) to the settling site. We couldn't get there any faster any other way that I can see, and this way it reveals coastline info.

Assuming we want to go green, I think it's debatable how fast we settle there. The way I see it, we have 3 options:

1) Map reveal with the settler and warrior while there are no animals and while Hunting -> Archery research at full speed. Then settle with the discovery of archery -> build archers.

2) Settle as quickly as possible and build a barracks while researching Hunting -> Archery. The barracks would allow us to give future archers the City Defense promotion, but this option would slow us down on the researching end. If this is chosen, battchy's quick path makes the most sense.

3) Settle as quickly as possible (with battchy's path) and build a worker. I don't know what the timing for epic speed is offhand, but this would ideally time with the discovery of archery. After worker, build archer. Build road to rice with worker (note that it doesn't look like it's considered on the river... no 1 :commerce: bonus). Mine gems once mining is complete. Again, this option would slow initial research, but is perhaps the quickest way to set us up with gems... and future forest chops.

I'm not sure which option is best... they all have their own merits, but option 3 looks like the quickest to get us gems.

As for "pushing out archers like mad," beyond 1, maybe 2 (call it 1.5) per city, we shouldn't need a whole lot more, yeah?

This is especially true with City Defense promotions, but could be deadly with the random barb axeman that sometimes show up. Either way, I prefer to escort any settler with at least one archer for protection.

we thinking some actual conquesting can be done before we get to axes/swords, using only archers?

Good question... never tried it with only archers. I guess it would depend on who our neighbors are and how quickly we locate them with the warrior. It think we'll have to debate that when we get to it. I've been trying to do a conquest with in SP with these map settings and am in roughly 1800AD. I'm having a heck of a time and wish I had done some more early conquesting though. Maybe one or two AI with axes/swords and another two with samurai/cats would be ideal. By the way... upgrading City Raider 3 samurai to grenadiers is frickin awesome. We could easily get another AI or two with this.

I like option 3. Althought, we could maybe modify and do Barracks till pop 2 (Which if you work Rice should be quick) Then switch to worker.

And to the forest side, I don't think we'll be working the forests till at least pop 4. And shopping isn't coming for a while.

I like option 3. Althought, we could maybe modify and do Barracks till pop 2 (Which if you work Rice should be quick) Then switch to worker.

Not bad... I believe it takes 11 turns to reach pop 2 while working a tile with 3 :food: on epic. I plan to leave work rather early this afternoon. I should be home by 5pm EST. I'll load up Civ and try to do a timeline analysis of how quickly we should expect everything to happen and how to best optimize our builds in the new city. I'm thinking work rice till pop 2 (build barracks), work rice and sheep (or possibly sheep and gems for the :commerce:) while building a worker, then back to barracks while working sheep and a forest for the :hammers:. Finally, archers. I'll try to figure out how this works out with the timing of Archery this afternoon and post back here.

Was out of town the last 4 days.

Can I download the save and look at the move history so far? Without actually playing any more?

I have some catchup to do to get upto date with the team strategy, but will try to get it done by tomorrow. Good going guys!

We haven't done anything, yet. So if you read the thread, you'll be caught up. A"s playing in about half an hour.

World builder test to follow: Note that city maintenance INCREASES with population. At green, Osaka will cost -9 gpt with pop = 2. I will edit this post and save every few minutes.

So I ran a mock 60 turns on a Worldbuilder start. Almost lost Osaka to barbs due to not getting Archery done fast enough. At turn 60, barbs pillaged mine on gems because I didn't have defenses. I think we may want to consider building warriors first until archery to protect our investment... not barracks! Here is my sample run using an early barracks push (note that the warrior should fog bust/scout beyond turn 2):

1) Settler -> NW -> NE, Warrior to hill (done).

2) Settler -> E -> NE, Warrior -> Hill to SE.

3) Found Osaka at green dot. Osaka(17) works sheep and builds barracks (perhaps should build warriors). Sci slider set to 50%. (Hunting in 10).

4 - 9) Nothing exciting.

10) Kyoto border pops.

11, 12) Nothing exciting.

13) Hunting in -> Archery(16).

14 - 17) Nothing exciting.

18) Kyoto: Pop up (work fish and crabs with 2 pops). Allows us to up Sci slider to 60%. Kyoto will pop again in 18.

19) Nothing exciting.

20) Osaka pop up (maintenance up to -9!!!). Work plains on river with new pop (less food = slower pop up, plus gold will help research). Sci slider set to 50%.

21) Nothing exciting.

22) Buddhism found in a distant land.

23) Nothing exciting.

24) Kyoto: Workboat complete (used to scout but perhaps you should work fish to cause Kyoto to pop faster and give us quicker access to +2 commerce coast squares???) -> Queue workboat(22).
Osaka: Barracks complete (perhaps should have been building warriors) -> Worker started(23 turns to complete by switching city workers to sheep and gems).

25, 26) Nothing exciting.

27) Archery in -> Mining started.
Osaka: Work sheep and rice -> Worker in 16 turns. We now have to alternate Sci slider between 40% and 50% every other turn. Set slider = 40%.

28) Sci = 50%.

29) Sci = 40%.

30) Sci = 50%.

31) Sci = 40%.

32) Sci = 50%.

33) Sci = 40%.

34) Sci = 50%.

35) Sci = 40%.

36) Kyoto pop up (could have been sooner if we had used fishing boats). 38 turns to next pop up. Health now 2<3 causing -1 :food:, but get 2 extra :commerce: since I get to work a new coast square (fish or crabs). Sci = 50% with 1 gold surplus.

37 - 41) Nothing exciting.

42) Mining in -> Pottery(18) started. Hinduism founded in a distant land.

43) Osaka: Worker complete -> Queued to Archer(12 with city working sheep and plains N of gems). Sci slider will now be toggled between 50% and 60% every other turn. Sci = 60%. Worker: SE -> start mine on gems(6).

44) Sci = 50%.

45) Sci = 60%.

46) Sci = 50%. Kyoto: Work boat complete -> Queued Work Boat(23)... build fish boats on fish to SE (would be crabs if we used fish for first work boat). Work SE and SW fish and crabs first to keep away from Northern coast in case of early war.

47) First barb archer observed on rice. Mine on gems complete. Switch Osaka to work gems (and sheep) instead of plains. Sci slider will now be alternated between 60% and 70%. Sci = 60%.

48) Starting warrior fortified in Osaka successfully defends attack from barb archer across river from rice (barely)... this is why we might want to build warriors early instead of barracks. Worker builds road to gems(3). Sci = 70%.

49) Sci = 60%.

50) Sci = 70%.

51) Kyoto: Pop up to 4 (10 till next). Work other crab with extra citizen. Sci slider now stable at 70%. Perhaps using the first work boat on the fish early rather than scouting will let Kyoto pop up sooner thus giving us more 2 :commerce: coast tiles to work with citizens???
Osaka Worker: Road to mine on gems complete -> Move N to plains and start road (3).

52) Nothing exciting.

53) Pottery in -> Start on BW(12) but maybe AH or Sailing??? Forgot to stop building road and start building cottage :(.

54) Osaka: Archer built -> Archer started(12). Worker: Start cottage on plains(6). City Defense promotion added to new archer and it fortified in city.

55 - 57) Nothing exciting.

58) Barb archer appears in forest S of sheep.

59) Barb moves onto gems (worker moved to city for safety). Sci slider forced to 50%. Combat odds from city for archer vs. archer = 24.9% :(.

60) Barb pillages mine on gems. Sci = 50%. New barb warrior appears in forrest S of sheep. Game terminated.

As you can see, if I had built warriors early I could have A) fog busted and B) protected gems.

A little bothered by pop up causing increased city maintanence since this essentially negates effect of gems :(. That's why I went pottery after mining.

Ran a test:

Pop 1 -> -7 gpt
Pop 2 -> -9 gpt
Pop 3 -> -10 gpt
Pop 4 -> -10 gpt
Pop 5 -> -11 gpt
Pop 6 -> -12 gpt
Pop 7 -> -13 gpt
Pop 8 -> -14 gpt
Pop 9 -> -15 gpt

Note, adding a third city causes -1 additional gpt loss in Osaka.

Post complete... discuss or play. Whatever.

How many :science: are you getting out of that?

How many :science: are you getting out of that?


Kyoto always gets 8 commerce from palace, 1 commerce from city square, and any extra commerce worked in water... hence maybe using the work boat to pop up faster rather than explore (coasts give 2 commerce!)

Osaka gets 1 commerce from city square, and 1 commerce from working sheep. 1 additional commerce comes when working plains N of gems (that's one reason why I did this rather than rice). Can get 2 additional commerce when working unmined gems, gaining 1 food but losing the hammers. That's why I MM some to optimize build sequence.

To calculate :science:, just multiply total :commerce: by any modifiers (here zero) and then the slider setting. So at the start, Kyoto gets 8 + 1 + 2 = 11 :science:. Founding Osaka causes Sci = 50% -> 6 :science: total.

With Osaka at pop 2: Working sheep and plains at 40% gives 5 :science: total. Working sheep and unmined gems gives 1 turn 40% for 5 :science: alternated with 1 turn 50% for 7 :science:.

With Osaka at 2 (mined gems) and Kyoto at 2: 2 turns at 60% for 12 :science:, alternated with 1 turn at 70% for 15 :science: total.

With Osaka at 2 (mined gems) and Kyoto at 3: 1 turn at 70% for 16 :science: followed by 1 turn at 60% for 14 :science:.

@ All: Try not to hit enter to end your last turn. Let the next person in the roster look over the end of your turn and complete the inherited turn please.

Okay guys sorry I'm an hour and a half late. Not only did I get home later than I thought but a friend from college called and thus an hour of my life went *poof*!

I don't think barracks are essential for barb defense. Barbs in vanilla Civ4 are dumb and will attack you in fortified positions where the terrain is on your side. So its all about having enough units to defend your territory.

So I think the plan is to settle and grab the gems early. I'll start moving that way and I'll post a screenshot (with resource/grid on) of what we find.

So, uh guys I really really hope you're here. Because in turn two we've run into something that changes our opening a weeee bit. Isabellas scout is just one space above green dot. That means her capital is only going to be 4-5 spaces away tops. Which means that the worker steal just became an EXTREMELY attractive option.

Its not normally something I do, but given aggressive AIs and conquest victory being mandated can we pass up the chance?

Oh and its official they've given us crazy resources to compensate for the built in upkeep penalty, look at what our worker revealed by moving to the plains hill. Specifically the plains below the first gems we spotted looks like an alternative to green dot. But that'd take use farther away from Kyoto. I think we should just grab the gold/oasis/gems to the south with our third city.

I'm torn without input, settle on green dot or not? Worker steal or not? With those two questions answered I can play the rest of the opening. Whats the braintrust say?

Man... I'd seriously consider it. If we could pull it off, then Mining (for the gems) is extremely important to get sooner... maybe even before archers??? If this was a SP game, I'd be going for it... see if you could fortify warrior on forested hill, and sue for peace. Hah... you may be lucky enough to steal 2! Cripple this AI I vote. We could try to conquest her with warriors even?!?!

Interesting consequence... she's going to help bust fog N of us to actually PROTECT us from barbs.

In 50% of my fractal tests with these settings, I was alone on an island with all 7 other AI civs on a pangea-like supercontinent. The other 50%, i was on the pangea-like supercontinent with a lone AI or two on a side island. Perhaps we're surrounded better than thought implying less barb worries.

Oh and its official they've given us crazy resources to compensate for the built in upkeep penalty, look at what our worker revealed by moving to the plains hill. Specifically the plains below the first gems we spotted looks like an alternative to green dot. But that'd take use farther away from Kyoto. I think we should just grab the gold/oasis/gems to the south with our third city.

I'm torn without input, settle on green dot or not? Worker steal or not? With those two questions answered I can play the rest of the opening. Whats the braintrust say?

I like worker steal as stated above. I'm EXTREMELY tempted to settle on forest tile S of sheep rather than green. Two gems plus a future gold makes this a powerhouse commerce city once we move Palace. What do you think A?

Actually, those look like flood plains in the fog. The hill 2 SE of the warrior may be a goldmine third city... I dunno guys?!?!

I like the tile one south of the gems better for a couple reasons.

1. Its got fresh water for +2 health
2. It doesn't grab a worthless ocean tile without being coastal
3. It saves a forest for later chopping.

Plus it leaves more room for a coastal city over there. Okay my gut is to settle the plains south of gems, and try worker steal. I'm still going archery first since the AI starts with archery on Monarch. Our worker can road a bit while we wait for mining.

Actually, those look like flood plains in the fog. The hill 2 SE of the warrior may be a goldmine third city... I dunno guys?!?!
We need to think short term more on second thought. We can get a great third city down there with gems/gold/oasis. Our initial city will be closer to Kyoto and Isabella, plus it'll be settled sooner. Which will be important towards building units since I'm firmly for grabbing us a worker.

I like the tile one south of the gems better for a couple reasons.

1. Its got fresh water for +2 health
2. It doesn't grab a worthless ocean tile without being coastal
3. It saves a forest for later chopping.

Plus it leaves more room for a coastal city over there. Okay my gut is to settle the plains south of gems, and try worker steal. I'm still going archery first since the AI starts with archery on Monarch. Our worker can road a bit while we wait for mining.


Sounds good to me... you're gut is better than my first glance. Be sure to MM the Science slider like I did in my walkthrough to speed research quicker. Given the known location of an AI, I say use the first workboat in Kyoto to improve fish S of Kyoto rather than explore. This will cause Kyoto to pop quicker and give us more :commerce: sooner for the research. Kyoto will go unhealthy at size 3, but there is plenty of food to overcome the -1 :food: penalty.

We need to think short term more on second thought. We can get a great third city down there with gems/gold/oasis. Our initial city will be closer to Kyoto and Isabella, plus it'll be settled sooner. Which will be important towards building units since I'm firmly for grabbing us a worker.

The only reason I like getting both gems in the same small culture border (without border pop -> implying your river plains spot) is that once our gems are mined, the research will pick back up. Even at green spot, the research slider is stuck at 70%. Getting the research up will get us swords much quicker. I'm willing to bet there are metals somewhere in these hills too.

Edit: Early production might suffer here though since the sheep can't be worked. Either way, you need to settle soon due to the random chance that a bear or lion will eat our settler... then it's GG FUBAR.

Okay I'll go for it, plains spot it is. I'm gonna start playing again. May the RNG have mercy on us all :salute: .

worker steal, worker STEAL, WORKER STEAL!!!

I kinda like the spot S of gems, too.

I think we should utilize our first worker boat on the fish, not explore.

Keep us updated.

what he said...

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
So apparently raging barbarians does things to huts. VERY BAD THINGS. I played two raging barb test games. I never had this happen to me.

What the heck do we do now???? Apparently there is no grace period ever (at least for a city not your capital) and you can just be destroyed by a hut.

Keep us updated.
:sad: I can't believe what just happened.

gg it was fun... FUBAR was a good name.

Umm, only option now as I see it is switch research to Sailing. Build Warrior, Settler, and Galley in Kyoto and then high tail it towards the coast north of Kyoto.

Yeah goodness I feel like a boob. I didn't even THINK that hitting a hut was such a huge risk. At worse you normally loose your exploring unit. Usually the map/tech/gold would be well worth it.

There is some land north of Kyoto, but just two very small patches.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
So apparently raging barbarians does things to huts. VERY BAD THINGS. I played two raging barb test games. I never had this happen to me.

Had it happen to me once over the weekend, but more like 50 - 60 turns later than this. Didn't think this was even going to happen since the GOTM staff normally remove huts! They FUBARed us.

Yeah goodness I feel like a boob. I didn't even THINK that hitting a hut was such a huge risk. At worse you normally loose your exploring unit. Usually the map/tech/gold would be well worth it.

There is some land north of Kyoto, but just two very small patches.

Pic please?

Yeah not much to do, I sent a PM to AlanH telling him to take a look. I'll play on my 30 turns tomorrow morning. Right now I'm too irritated with myself to play.

Pic please?
Here you go.

On a positive note... Softnum's spoiler is going to be easy if we can't survive the next 100 turns or so. Here, I'll write it now:

Tokugawa's brother: He didn't make it.

A: don't be mad at yourself, everyone of us would have done the same thing...

Does anyone think we have much chance? I'll admit that I'm leaning on throwing up the white flag, but I'll put in the old good go if everyone else wants to...

B

On a positive note... Softnum's spoiler is going to be easy if we can't survive the next 100 turns or so. Here, I'll write it now:

Tokugawa's brother: He didn't make it.
:lol:

Well you got me to laugh even after I made sure our named fit. Off to bed for real now.

A: don't be mad at yourself, everyone of us would have done the same thing...

Does anyone think we have much chance? I'll admit that I'm leaning on throwing up the white flag, but I'll put in the old good go if everyone else wants to...

B


Agreed... don't be mad at yourself. Although, maybe you shouldn't have prayed to the RNG before playing. :goodjob: I would have popped it too... anyone of us would have.

Much of a chance? No... at least not for conquest win. We could always try, but the big worry is that the AI WILL declare war on us once they get galleys. I experienced this in a test... actually lost Kyoto fairly early. It helped the maintanence issue though in Osaka :lol:. I actually debated offering up the strategy of leaving Kyoto undefended for our first war just to get a free palace move.

We could easily win the quickest defeat award.

Hope you dont give up yet.. I kinda expected that some teams would loose the settler/city :evil:

Whoa. I'm afk a couple of days and all hell breaks loose :eek: We must've all been psychic picking our name....

Here's hoping there's some more islands/a continent past the other isles N of Kyoto! On the bright side we have low maintenenace now :lol: And it's not just a raging barbs thing, it's a popping huts with military instead of scouts thing - I've gotten myself killed a few times like that in a normal game.

And seriously man, don't feel bad - I blame the RNG :crazyeye:

Hope you dont give up yet.. I kinda expected that some teams would loose the settler/city :evil:

I haven't! I'm persistent enough to play out a bad position - usually learn something at leat. Or get the satisfaction of pulling off a win, somehow ^^

Well, this'll be an interesting learning experience for everyone, I guess :eek:

Let the fun and games begin!

Hope you dont give up yet.. I kinda expected that some teams would loose the settler/city :evil:

I think this means that we can probably expect some built-in bail out for those of us that lost Osaka. Perhaps there is a continent to the N, but we'll be hard pressed to keep up in the tech race unless that continent is populated with AI. But then again, with AI present, we may not be able to settle. Luckily, we met Isabella turn 2/3 so that we have at least one trading partner. Either way, an early conquest will be hard... a conquest at all will be hard methinks.

Hope you dont give up yet.. I kinda expected that some teams would loose the settler/city :evil:
:lol:

Okay well I guess we'll carry on then. I'll play the remaining 23 turns tomorrow afternoon.

Strategywise things have obviously changed. We'll need to research sailing first so we can get started on our galley. Bronzeworking for slavery is also going to be a key technology for us. I still think we should grab archery soonish though. One we'll need AH eventually for those cows, and two its the most efficient city defender and we're going to be desperate for hammers for a while.

I'd say Sailing -> Hunting (finished so we don't lose beakers to degradation) -> Mining -> BW -> AH -> Archery -> Push to Alphabet. Archery may move up if find another settling spot N of the cows. I'd rather not settle there if we can avoid it just yet. I'd much more assume we find some land with decent hammers somewhere. We could... could... throw our third settler on top of the stone and try to get the GL for the :commerce: boost -> more :science:. Just a thought though.

I'll play the remaining 23 turns tomorrow afternoon.

You sure it's 23? Your pic shows Hunting left in 2 turns... that would make 9 turns researched so far -> 21 turns remaining. Did I calculate this wrong? By the way, in epic the early turns take 30 years each.

To keep chins up... and this thread moving... I realized that we've got 1 added side benefit from this mess: in a few turns Izzy should be dealing with 4 or 5 really pissed off barbs much sooner than she had planned :lol: :lol: :lol: .

sh*t happens sometimes. :cringe: Isabella as neighbor, early worker and religion. :sad:

Dont feel bad Araquiel. This was an expensive lesson but dont think anyone will be forgetting anytime soon if ever. On the plus side, besides the reduced expense, no more pressure on us, we can just go out and play our game!

We should beeline for Sailing first, convert to Slavery immediately after BW, building workboats in the meanwhile to boost our population for heavy :whipped: Maybe a bit obvious but our startegy has definitely become clearer :lol:

We should beeline for BW first, convert to Slavery then Sailing, building workboats in the meanwhile to boost our population for heavy :whipped: Maybe a bit obvious but our startegy has definitely become clearer :lol:

Sounds good to me... Finish Hunting for 2 turns??? -> Mining -> BW (slavery) -> Sailing.

Proposed Build (with creative whipping when available): Workboat -> Workboat -> Warrior -> Settler

I'd say Sailing -> Hunting (finished so we don't lose beakers to degradation) -> Mining -> BW -> AH -> Archery -> Push to Alphabet. Archery may move up if find another settling spot N of the cows. I'd rather not settle there if we can avoid it just yet. I'd much more assume we find some land with decent hammers somewhere. We could... could... throw our third settler on top of the stone and try to get the GL for the :commerce: boost -> more :science:. Just a thought though.



You sure it's 23? Your pic shows Hunting left in 2 turns... that would make 9 turns researched so far -> 21 turns remaining. Did I calculate this wrong? By the way, in epic the early turns take 30 years each.
Your plan sounds good. I'm pretty sure its 23, but I'll double check to be sure. Anyways I'll have the report/save up before dinner hopefully.

Okay my turns were super easy as there sadly isn't much to do right now:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/FUBAR_SG002_BC3100_01.Civ4SavedGame is the save.

Turn 3, 3910 BC: Osaka has been founded.

Turn 8, 3760 BC: Osaka has been captured by the Barbarian State!!!
Turn 8, 3760 BC: Osaka has been razed by the Barbarian State!!!

Turn 10, 3700 BC: You have discovered Hunting!

Turn 19, 3430 BC: You have discovered Mining!

Turn 29, 3130 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

is the summary output and thats pretty much all that happened. I explored with the workboat discovering not much around those two spots of land. I did note a flaw in my exploration pattern though. The two corners I makred with red dots to the west of cow island need to be checked. Its very likely that they're ocean but they could be coastal squares.

Bronzeworking due in 7 once its discovered revolt to slavery immediately and start researching sailing. Get another workboat out. Put the first one on fish and the second on the crabs. The health bonus is equivalent foodwise once we hit population greater than three and its better overall to have two resources.

Which small island should we settle first?

@A: I know I'm up for 20 (I think it's 20), but you should post the roster each time after someone plays to keep everyone informed.

I'm still at work so I'll download the save and post a "got it" probably after dinner.

I propose using the workboat on fish because we are about to hit health limit in Kyoto. Then, I'll check those red dots with the next workboat. Push through Bronze Working and begin Sailing followed by Archery(?). If there is no land in sight from the red dots, then we only need a Settler and Galley built. We could settle on the stone if we want to push for GL, but the tile E of the cows has more production capability for us with clams and cows (need AH). We could always put a third city on the stone, ignoring the GL. Either way, no land in sight means straight push towards other boat techs so we can make contact with more AI for tech trade. What do you guys think?

If there is land visible, we may want to push to it with a Settler and Archer in the Galley to hopefully find a more useful city location (ie. somewhere that we can plan an early AI conquest from).

Given our unfortunate situation, I think conquest is still possible. But, I think we're going to have to play diplomacy more than I ever have in the past. We need to try to start wars between AIs to keep them in check.

I can play either tonight or tomorrow night, depending on feedback of the proposed plan.

Oops sorry about that.

Roster Order:
1. Araqiel ~ just played
2. bshumbera ~ up
3. Softnum ~ on deck
4. battchy
5. Makahula
6. night_f3
7. gary_x_thompson

Strategy wise the only thing I have to add is we should try to get obelisks into the tiny island cities. There is a pretty good chance that the extra boundries will lead us to some more small islands. Otherwise it'd be a long time before we could reach anything with galleons.

concur...

why not, eh?

cheers,
B

Okay... this serves as my official "Got It."

I loaded the file and noticed something Araqiel missed:

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/2303/civ4screenshot0000mg9.th.jpg (http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0000mg9.jpg)

Notice that there IS coast to the SE of Kyoto. I always play with the :food:, :hammers:, and :commerce: displayed and you can see that there are two ocean squares that give :food: and :commerce: bordering the SE fog. Oceans ONLY give these when they are adjacent to coast... and where there is coast, there is land. While the two island citis might be nice for the food resources... and we should grab them before the AI does... we need to prioritize getting setup on a continent or larger island. Therefore, I proposer sending our first Galley/Archer/Settler to the SE rather than our small islands. Kyoto's borders will pop again in (150-61)/2 or roughly 45 turns. We could speed this up a little if we researched Mysticism and whip an obelisk, but then Galley/Archer/Settler builds a slower. Note that if we built a city on stone island, it would still take 150 turns to build the Great Lighthouse on any of these islands, longer in Kyoto. Obviously, this isn't going to happen. I propose we head to the larger landmass, then fill in cities on the islands. They will be Whiptastic with all of the food... the cow island moreso than the stones. Longer term question is where to place the city on the cow island. We could place it to the E of cows so we could pasture it with AH, or we could place it on the cows to hopefully allow our borders more room out W to find other landmasses. I say E of cows for more :food: -> :whipped:.

For my turns, I propose that I bring the workboat to build fish boats in Kyoto and give +1 :health: before the city pops up to 3 (in 5 turns). I'll send the next workboat built to scout the two red dots Araqiel posted in his screenie, and then return to build on crabs (this may carry over to next person's turnset). I'll start researching Sailing once BW finished in 7 turns. Kyoto should build Galley first, followed by Archer and then Settler... whipping each as soon as possible. This will carryover into next turnset or two. Sailing will finish in my turnset so I'll switch over to Archery unless someone thinks Mysticism is more important to get an obelisk to pop our border slightly faster. It would only speed us up by a few turns though so maybe Archery is better. Beyond Archery, we should consider either AH or IW to help us find horses/iron for potential second or third city on landmass to SE.

I can play tonight but will wait until tomorrow night unless I get a few :agree: posts.

Edit to add: The resource bubbles indicate that the equator runs right between Kyoto and it's island friends.

Nice catch! I was 95% certain there was more land we could reach without galleons. Since we have the palace we won't have to divert to mysticism to get it now :goodjob: .

I agree with your proposed tech and build order. Also with saving our first settler for the SE. We must get some land so we can have a real chance at avenging our lost brethren. Now for some strategic musings

Our situation is both useful and bad. Its bad as we lack any means of efficient production without the :whipped: . This is compounded by our lack of happiness resources within reach until optics opens up the whale. We need to get some sort of production and research base on land so we can keep up.

If we can keep up into the age of gunpowder I suggest we build a fleet of frigates along with grenadiers/riflemen into our "death fleet". The AI cannot cope with large scale amphibious attacks like that in which we just raze every city we can on the coast to cripple them. Approaching it this will allow us to maul our AI opponents with a smaller initial force, hopefully constantly adding to it while destroying more and more of their cities.

Given our island start we're going to need a stonger navy than usual for a normal game. Plus given the nature of the map I have the feeling there are likely a number of continents rather than a few larger ones. Though this is a guess.

The only trick would be getting to that point without falling terribly behind.

Sounds good to me, hopefully we can find a nice production-rich coast spot for GL & Colossus - that'll make those island cities super rich!

...but of course that's quite a few turns ahead :)


ETA: And Araquiel's advice on the navy is spot on. At least Kyoto is safe until Marines (which if we're still conquering then would roxxor some costal cities' boxxors ;) )

The only trick would be getting to that point without falling terribly behind.

Hence the diplomatic game I mentioned earlier. If we can bribe wars, then research will slow with AI. By the way, I still think it's possible to conquer an early AI with swords and horse archers if we hurry and get lucky with a coastal location. Remember, the victory condition is FASTEST conquest... if we're still working on it with marines, then we've lost for sure. Granted, any victory at this point would be a great moral victory and learning experience though.

:agree::agree::agree::agree:

I think your plan sounds fine.

Hence the diplomatic game I mentioned earlier. If we can bribe wars, then research will slow with AI. By the way, I still think it's possible to conquer an early AI with swords and horse archers if we hurry and get lucky with a coastal location. Remember, the victory condition is FASTEST conquest... if we're still working on it with marines, then we've lost for sure. Granted, any victory at this point would be a great moral victory and learning experience though.
Absolutely we should try for some conventional conquest. Even more important is keeping our enemies fighting rather than just peacefully teching. However at this point I'm not sure exactly how fast we can pull it off. Much will depend on how big our land base is.

ETA: And Araquiel's advice on the navy is spot on. At least Kyoto is safe until Marines (which if we're still conquering then would roxxor some costal cities' boxxors ;) )
Who is this Araquiel? That bastard is obviously stealing my ideas :mad: :mad: !

;)

One very important point though, in Civ4 ANY unit can make an amphibious attack. They suffer a 25% penalty for doing so. Marines just start out with the amphibious promotion. Any unit can choose that for their third promotion if they have combat I&II.

So Kyoto is in danger if any enemy transport gets near it.

Righto... we'll build an archer or two for defense once we get the settler on his merry way... maybe with a worker first though.

I'll play soon... I've got a bit more analysis to do on the data I collected today first though.

gee...i hate sounding like a broken record, but...

"what you all said..."

nothing of great importance to add. bshumbra, have at it.

B

bshumbra, have at it.

Who is this bshumbra? That bastard is obviously stealing my ideas:mad: :mad: !

damn, this thread is ripe with imposters. we must report this to AlanH at once!!! that explains the raging B's out of the hut. conspiracy!!!

:rolleyes:


:crazyeye:


:lol: :lol:

Obviously, these turns were rather boring. However, Kyoto now sits pretty with a fortified Archer for future defense purposes. Based on the Power plots supplied in the SGOTM results page, it looks like we got our first Archer out faster than anybody -> we have the highest power ranking at this turn :lol:. Kyoto is set to have (with proper micromanaging) a Settler/Archer/Galley out at roughly the same time as it's borders pop. The pop happens in 26 turns... production will be within 1 or 2 turns of this methinks. I also explored those two red dots and saw NO evidence of coast -> coast only immediately visible to SE of Kyoto. Turn summary follows:

30 (3100BC): Inherited turn from Araqiel. Tokogawa laments the death of his beloved brother, vowing revenge on all those that dare to stand in his way of world conquest.

31 (3070BC): Isabella converts to Buddhism. I note that the score menu shows she actually founded Buddhism. I move the workboat 2S.

32 (3040BC): I move the workboat 1SW and 1W.

33 (3010BC): I move the workboat 1SW and create fishing boats on the NW Fish resource. I choose this particular Fish since Fish give +1 :food: over Crabs and it is further away from the possible SE continent/island (ie. protect it from pillaging). I TURN OFF KYOTO CITIZEN AUTOMATION and switch it to work the newly created fishing boats.

34 (2980BC): Fish register as connected for +1 :health: benefit. Kyoto's population climbs to 3, will climb again in 8 turns... set new citizen to work SE fish.

35 (2950BC): Enter.

36 (2920BC): Bronze Working researched -> Archery assigned. Revolt to slavery.

37 (2890BC): Enter (Anarchy).

38 (2860BC): Hinduism founded in a distant land.

39 (2830BC): Enter.

40 (2800BC): Enter.

41 (2770BC): Enter.

42 (2740BC): Enter.

43 (2710BC): Kyoto's population climbs to 4... it is now unhealty for -1 :food:, but will still climb to population 5 in 10 turns. Building a fish boat on the crabs will eventually raise this unhealthiness limit 1 more and bring it equal to the happiness limit of 5. Set addition Kyoto citizen to work final food resource (crab).

44 (2680BC): Archery researched -> Sailing(11) assigned.

45 (2650BC): Enter.

46 (2620BC): Kyoto completes Workboat -> Archer(19) started. Move new Workboat 1NW and 1N.

47 (2590BC): Whip Archer :whipped: in Kyoto for 1 population (+1 unhappy for 14 or 15 turns... I forgot to write it down). I waited a turn to whip because it would have cost 2 population in turn 46 :rockon:. I move Workboat 1NW and 1W.

48 (2560BC): Kyoto completes Archer -> Archer started. I fortify new Archer in Kyoto. I move the Workboat 1W (NO evidence of coast