Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 2 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4354542) for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

This game will be played in Civ4, patched to v1.61.

You are cast in the role of Tokugawa, mighty leader of the Japanese. Tokugawa's brother has left the island city of Kyoto to avenge the death of his wife and only son. He has travelled to a distant land without finding their murderer. So the brother of Tokugawa will settle and found a new Japanese colony, and the Japanese have sworn to conquer the rest of civilization in order to hunt down and destroy their enemy.

The game is on a Standard size fractal map, modified as only Gyathaar knows how, at Epic speed. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the fastest teams to achieve a Conquest victory. The number of AI rivals has not yet been revealed. It will be played using version 1.61 of Civ4 with locked modified assets.

Individual start files for all teams will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of August 8th.

Here's the start position.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/SGOTM02_start.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Tokugawa of Japan
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Fractal, hand modified
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - YES!
Barbarians - Raging!!

Please visit the following link to ensure that you are adequately prepared:
Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439)

Notes:

A. ONLY Civilization IV v1.61 is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - victory will be awarded for the fastest victory by Conquest.

C. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

I'm sure you'll enjoy this game :D

Signing in. Here are some topics for discussion:

1. Where should we build our second city?

2. Do we expect we will eventually build a Palace onshore?

3. Will we be able to defend Kyoto? Note that the spaces 2N2W and 2N2E of Kyoto have commerce; this means they are near another landmass. Eventually, our borders will expand, and this ocean will be crossable with galleys. But whether we'll be able to connect our resources to Kyoto (and vice versa) is very unclear.

4. What's our initial research path? For sake of discussion, I'll suggest: Mining, Bronze Working, Pottery, Writing, Alphabet. Our onshore location has lots of forests to chop, and Kyoto will need Slavery to develop effectively. We might want to fit in Sailing somewhere, too.

New recruit reporting for duty!

1. Where should we build our second city?
That's a tough question. Remember; our borders in that city will not be expanding for quite some time. We will need to plan appropriately. Given what we can see now, nothing looks terribly appealing. The fish will be beyond reach for some time, no matter what. We should probably do a fair amount of scouting beforehand. Also, settling that city isn't terribly pressing, as we'll be researching at full tilt every turn we delay.

2. Do we expect we will eventually build a Palace onshore?
I'd expect to, but it depends on what the border expansion in Kyoto shows. If there's accessible, available land near Kyoto, it may behoove us to leave the capital where it is. Regardless, that's not a question we'll need to be answering anytime soon.

3. Will we be able to defend Kyoto? Note that the spaces 2N2W and 2N2E of Kyoto have commerce; this means they are near another landmass. Eventually, our borders will expand, and this ocean will be crossable with galleys. But whether we'll be able to connect our resources to Kyoto (and vice versa) is very unclear.
Getting out an early scouting boat or two will be very important if we are to adequately assess the fate of Kyoto. A lot will depend on what those inital scouting boats find. I don't think it will be difficult to defend from invasion. Pillaging could definitely be a problem, though. After that, we'll either be trading dozens of citizens' lives for a navy, or we'll be rushing settlers to claim as much nearby territory as we can.

4. What's our initial research path? For sake of discussion, I'll suggest: Mining, Bronze Working, Pottery, Writing, Alphabet. Our onshore location has lots of forests to chop, and Kyoto will need Slavery to develop effectively. We might want to fit in Sailing somewhere, too.
Leading with Mining and Bronze sounds like the smart play. I might like mysticism next, just for the obelisk to expand the second city's borders. With the raging barbs, though, if there isn't easily accessible bronze, we may be forced into archery next. After that, pottery and writing sound like a good plan. I'm unsure of Alphabet, though. Does anyone know what effect the Aggressive AI will have on opponents' willingness to trade?

checking in.

1. from looking at our current position, the spot NW of the current position of the settler looks appealing. from that spot we will be working the FP at size 1 (11 turns?) and adding a plain forest at size 2.
we will need to research myst to allow obelisk in the second city.

the spot 2N of the settler which allow us to get the rice on the initial tiles is no good since rice is worse than FP (1 less commerce) until we can chain irrigation.

I am not sure we should waste turns on exploring with the settler. maybe just a couple.

2. I believe we will move the palace eventually. this is not important for the first 100 turns.

3. I believe that the resources-less defenders will be more than enough to defend the city itself.
consider an amphibious attack on an fortified archer with CD1 in a city on a hill (edit: with at least 60% culture that can not be reduced until frigates).
the attacker will suffer 50%
the archer (and later - longbow) will have more than 100% bonus.
so unless we face at least grenadiers (str 12) vs simple archers we are safe.
consider that the AI suck at amphibious attacks.

The sea resources will be hard to defend for a while if the AI will culturally control the tiles next to our shore.
Since this is our capital and gain much culture, I do not think it will be a problem.

4. I think we should consider going for myst first for the obelisks.
agri should also be priority.
I suggest:
myst --> agri --> mining -> BW
If we explore and settle next to a good resource we might want to skip myst.

civ_steve checking in. I saw that malekithe was in the unattached category; since we were at 5 members I extended an invitation to join our team, which was accepted, so greetings to our new Team member malekithe! :wavey:

Let's add malekithe to the end of our current roster, then rotate it around; DaviddesJ finished SGOTM1 in fine fashion, so Phabuk will start us off for SGOTM2. With that setup, here's the current order:

Phabuk
malekithe
civ_steve
ainwood
MailMan
DaviddesJ

As a general guideline, 24 hours from conclusion of prior turn-set to post a 'got-it' in our Team thread when your turn is up; after 24 hours, the next player in sequence can assume the current turn. 48 hours to play your turns and upload the save file. This is a guideline, but it keeps the game flowing.

Order of player's turns is quite flexible; feel free to trade with someone else, skip your turn if you'll be out for a while, or just pass to the next player until you have time to play a round. It is appreciated that you post if you can't play at the current time, but the 24 hour rule will keep things moving.

Lots of discussion is welcome! (And I can see it has already started - good!) Constructive criticism is also welcome; most of us still have a lot to learn about the fine points of CIV! Most of all remember we're doing this for enjoyment (and to win lots of awards :D ) so have fun!

On to the game!

1.) second city - Not really sure. Does anyone know approximately how much the second city will cost us? Barbarians are raging, so there is some risk to moving much (I think).

2.) Palace on shore - to be seen. If Kyoto is thoroughly isolated - yes!

3.) Good observation about the diagonal corners; it would seem that land might be usable, or it could be designed to torment us! I believe that Kyoto is defendable, at least in the short term. We'll know more by the time we decide on moving the Palace or not.

4.) Bronzeworking will be a must for Kyoto! Food rich and shield poor - Slavery will compensate nicely. I would choose between Pottery (for Granary) or Mysticism (for obelisk) next depending on whether we can develop the land near Kyoto efficiently, or want to focus on expanding the cultural radius of our 2nd city area. Next would be the other Tech, then on towards Alphabet.

AI Aggression - not sure if this means all the AI have Aggressive trait, or if they're modified to be aggressive and belligerent.

MailMan's spot seems about the best for what we see, if we choose not to go scouting. Fresh water, Coastal, Floodplains for initial growth and eventually Fish and Rice.

I've been thinking about the initial few turns (23) at Kyoto.

Option 1 - work Fish/Crabs for 23 turns; reach size 2 at turn 15 and work 2nd Fish/Crabs; 8 turns later finish Workboat and develop Fish. 46 Food, 46 Shields and 62 Commerce from tiles worked developed.

Option 2 - work Fish/Crabs for 15 turns; upon growth switch 2nd citizen to specilist (extra shield), finish Work boat in 5 turns, get 3 turns of using Fish.
45 Food, 51 Shields and 42 Commerce from tiles worked developed.

Option 3 - set citizen as specialist from start. Work boat in 15 turns, 8 turns of using developed Fish, grows to size 2 on 21st turn (I think). 40 Food, 61 Shields, 20 commerce (if using 2dn Crabs/Fish); 36 Food, 63 Shields and 16 Commerce (if setting 2nd citizen to Specialist)

We give up a lot of commerce to gain shields, but we're also shield poor and we really want Workboats to develop our tiles and to explore as far as they can go. 15 Shields means a 2nd Workboat up to 8 turns earlier vs Option 1, up to 5 turns earlier vs Option2. 17 extra shields would mean an extra turn advantage to 2nd Workboat vs both options. I think the food sacrifice is small, less than 2 turns of food vs a faster 2nd Workboat.

I'm a little bit tempted to explore for a better spot for our 2nd city. I'd also be curious if anyone can estimate how much the second city will cost us in maintenance.

If we do build the second city 1NW, then maybe Mysticism before Mining/BW does make sense. The highest priority if we build there is to get the culture expansion asap; chopping isn't so useful until we have something to chop.

But, conversely, Slavery asap is good for Kyoto. Realistically, though, there's a limit to what growth in Kyoto can get us. We can build our 4 workboats and then we may not have much for that city to do. I guess by that time maybe we will be ready to start a Library.

I'm not excited about Agriculture. Value of a farm on the rice or floodplains isn't so much---cottages would be just as good. With no early happiness resources (as far as I can see), we won't grow large enough to have major health problems---the fish resource will be enough for a while. So BW and Pottery definitely seem like higher priorities to me (Pottery especially for granaries, since we'll be doing lots of pop rushing, but cottages will also be nice to have).

I'm a little bit tempted to explore for a better spot for our 2nd city. I'd also be curious if anyone can estimate how much the second city will cost us in maintenance.
I've got a maintenance calculator somewhere - will try and check over the weekend.


Otherwise - just "checking in". More thoughts later.

I'd also be curious if anyone can estimate how much the second city will cost us in maintenance.

From a quick experiment, I would say it's going to cost us 5 GPT. It's not quite as far away as I though at first, as the map wraps east-west. The total distance between Kyoto and the settler appears to be ~25-30.

Yes, it looks like the Settler/Warrior and Kyoto are 'closer' to the East of the Settler; perhaps moving the Settler East may reduce the cost and we can try to find a better commerce position.

1 NW appears to be a plains space, and I don't see a Coin on the space; it would seem it is not on the River?

1 NW appears to be a plains space, and I don't see a Coin on the space; it would seem it is not on the River?

That's right. This position (diagonally connected to the mouth of the river) is not considered to be on the river, and won't have fresh water. A tile is only on the river if it runs along one of the edges of the tile.

That's right. This position (diagonally connected to the mouth of the river) is not considered to be on the river, and won't have fresh water.

Incidentally (and a bit off-topic), I believe they've modified this in Warlords and such a tile would have access to fresh water.

We could attempt traveling to the east with the settler, but I'm hesitant to leave the river behind. We'll need the extra commerce it provides, I believe. Maybe get the warrior up on that hill to survey the lay of the land? Looks like more grassland, forest, and hills from the screenshot.

As to the best way to produce the workboat in Kyoto: I don't think we will have the luxury of the fastest workboat possible (running a citizen). We will need the extra commerce from the coastal tile(s). Besides, the extra food can later be converted much more efficiently into hammers through slavery (possibly starting with the second workboat if we lead with mining/bronze).

Speaking of Mining and Bronze, I still think it sounds like the better opening. Between slavery and chopping it offers more options. Even after we settle the second city, we'll still be sinking 8 beakers per turn into research; only 1 less than a typical floodplain-free start. As Kyoto grows, that number will increase. We'll get the second city's border expansion considerably later, but, assuming we plan the city location well, we'll be in a stronger position.

Few notes:

- the build order of the capital is - 5 work boats - the fifth for exploring.

- I belive that the maintainence cost is 5gpt but we will get 1 back from the FP tile

- 1NW do not seem to be on the river but I do not think it is a problem, I usually do not find health to be such an important issue. I rather use the plain tile as a city even if it is not on a river.
The non-river plain tile will not be so useful any way until we can chain irrigation there (I do not like to cottage them in most cases).

- I suggest that we first decide on a single play of the warrior (I suggest warrior to the east). that single play should be played by the first one that see to opening save and post got it. after that single play we will have more info for discussion.

I put a spreadsheet together to look at Options1 and 3; Option2 is in the middle and kind of boring. One thing I noticed is that once a WB has been generated, the growth of Kyoto is every 6 turns, so under Option1, Kyoto is size5 (I think that's maximum without any happiness bonuses) before it can ever build a 2nd WorkBoat. Option3 never quite catches up with that growth, and therefore is always behind in Commerce as well. You will generate more Workboats more quickly under Option3, but this doesn't generate much useable growth, and the 2nd Workboat can be used (if desired) for Scouting (if possible) anyway. There's probably not a reason for fast growth and lots of pop-rushes until we can see if there's a place to go.

At this point, Kyoto appears to be a boring place, and probably all the teams will do the exact same thing with it.

So for the first 50 turns or so, the 2nd city appears to be the place where the teams might differ. It would be odious if there were a wonderful settling spot just a few turns away and only random movement choices were to find this place. So I think our choices are to settle on or near our starting location, or attempt to march closer to Kyoto. Marching sounds very risky with the Barb and AI settings mentioned, so we should probably stay close-by and take a peek on the nearby hill to see if there happens to be something over there to change our minds about settling location.

If it appears that we don't have much access to do anything with Kyoto, does that reduce the initial desirability of BronzeWorking? Probably not, we'd still want to chop and rush at the 2nd city, but we might choose to get Pottery and Granaries before BronzeWorking (or possibly Mysticism first as well).

In fact I am on holidays for 2 weeks so I won't be able to play my turn set. Sorry about that but I am sure you 'll start the game very well for me.

I will let a message and play in two weeks. See you soon!

Thank you for the notification, Phabuk! We will start off with malekithe then, and your turn will probably come around about the time you're back from your holidays.

Assuming we found city #2 on the Plains space NW of the starting location, it would seem very desirable to get access to the Fish, so perhaps Mysticism to gain Obelisk should be our first research. Then I was thinking Pottery next; about that time we should get a Worker out who can Cottage the Floodplains, and the 2 Grasslands on the River. That should get us at least positive in Commerce due to the 2nd city, and should help our research down stream. This would delay us getting Mining and BronzeWorking, but I think all 4 Techs are wanted right away, and this should get us to all of them faster.

I'm going to play my broken record one last time for each team:


Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=168439) for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

Anything I post there will NOT be repeated individually in every team thread. You may even find some useful information there now :p

You may even find some useful information there now :p

So... 7 GPT in maintenance costs. That will leave us with, at best, a meager 6 beakers per turn at the outset. Reason enough to treck to the east? Anybody want to wager a guess at how risky that would be?

We don't even know if that's an option; we may be on or near the Eastern edge of our land mass. Is it every 4 tiles distance adds 1 gpt cost to the distance cost?

So... 7 GPT in maintenance costs. That will leave us with, at best, a meager 6 beakers per turn at the outset. Reason enough to treck to the east? Anybody want to wager a guess at how risky that would be?
We may actually want to delay founding the city until we get a couple of research projects completed.

1. It's unlikely (but possble) that we'll be able to explore anywhere from Kyoto with workboats, until after our second expansion. We'll know more after the first expansion.

2. I tend to agree with ainwood, I would prefer to explore for an excellent second city site, rather than take a mediocre one that will cost us money rather than generate money. Exploring with our settler should not be too dangerous if we don't get carried away (send the warrior and settler in generally the same direction, and don't use the settler's last move adjacent to unknown territory). Obviously the natural direction to explore is back toward Kyoto (given that we have no other information about which way to go).

3. I suggest we start with warrior E, and if this reveals nothing too exciting then settler S, then post screenshot for discussion before using settler's 2nd move.

4. I am now inclined to favor Mysticism first, since wherever we build our 2nd city it's likely to need cultural expansion to really pay for itself. We can then decide on Pottery or Mining/BW or AH or Agri or Hunting depending on where our 2nd city ends up.

5. There are a few "safe turns" at the beginning before animals show up, right?

1.) Yup, especially if the closest land is 4 moves diagonal from Kyoto! Time will tell.

2.)If we're going to delay city #2, we might as well explore a bit. Realistically, how much closer to Kyoto do we want to go? If we move 8 or 10 spaces closer, and assuming that drops us to 5 gpt cost (not sure of the relationship), but there's no river, we wouldn't have gained much. Or do we want to find a commerce rich spot and settle there (although this river does provide extra commerce, and with the Floodplains, good growth.)

My first instinct tells me that we are more likely to run across animals, or hit a nasty established AI civ, or run into coast or other barricade, than come across a really nice area to settle that's significantly closer to Kyoto. For balance in the initial phase of the game, it would seem we should settle very near the opening position, or there should be an obvious direction to go; otherwise there's a risk that if many teams chose to wander and lose their Settler, that might be it for that team. If the Hill doesn't reveal much of promise, we should probably settle in place.

3.) OK.

4.) I think I've come around to Mysticism first as well.

5.) Don't know, but they show up pretty quickly.

I don't think we have to delay founding our 2nd city in order to do research. If we find a good spot, including near the opening location, I think we can found right away. Even at only 6 gpt initially, we would learn Mysticism in about 13 turns, and once Kyoto and the 2nd city grow a bit, the Techs will come fairly quickly. I think the delay in growth works against us too much to delay founding.

2. I do not want to delay our second city too much. we will loose commerce due to corruption but will gain food and hammers.
If we found a second city we will probably be in 50%-60% on the science slider. In most normal expansion phase that is a very acceptable figures.

5. there are several safe turns. the exact number is based on the difficulty level and its written in 1 of the XML files. IIRC the XML file that handle the difficulty levels. I do not have access to the game to check it out.

For balance in the initial phase of the game, it would seem we should settle very near the opening position, or there should be an obvious direction to go; otherwise there's a risk that if many teams chose to wander and lose their Settler, that might be it for that team.

We're looking at a fairly lousy location for the second city, imho. (Especially given that we're going to have a long time to cultural expansion, much longer than we would with our capital.) If we could see the whole map, and it were randomly constructed, there's almost certainly a significantly better location within a half-dozen moves, I think.

On a random map, I'd expect to find a better location that helps our growth more than the cost of the lost turns exploring. Especially given that we want our first build to be Obelisk, in the current location, but we can't build it yet. (Even if we find a city location with equal resources to our current location, but on a plains hill, that would be enough of a boost to make up for some turns of exploration.)

Usually one can't afford to explore at the beginning of the game because it's a huge research penalty. This start is different because we have "free research" from Kyoto so we don't suffer much. If we explore for several turns, we aren't set back in the long term by nearly as many turns, because we're still getting just as much research and the time we can build an obelisk and granary, and start chopping, which will cause our city to really take off, will be the same whether we build sooner or later.

Now, you argue (I think) that the map designer probably deliberately avoided putting any better locations nearby, perhaps by editing them out or regenerating the map, in order to avoid giving an advantage to the teams who are lucky in their exploration (or who cheat). I don't have any way of assessing how true that is. My inclination is to play as I would if the map were random, and that would be to explore for a few turns.

I certainly will defer to the group consensus; I just want to set out the argument for exploration.

We could also find a hut. Of course that could be bad if it pops barbarians. Is Civ4 like Civ3, in that huts are safe if you pop them with your cultural borders, rather than with a unit?

I'm in favor of finding a better location for the second city. From some experimenting, it looks like we'll have 6 turns before any animals show up (they appear in 3820 on these settings). Turns after that the settler is at risk and must move carefully. Of course, that assumes the map hasn't been seeded with animals already. What we'd like to find, I believe, is a river near the coast, with an immediately workable food resource. Seafood within the starting radius would be nice too and several forests would also be a significant benefit.

I'd be willing to submit to the "mysticism first" path, but I still think, depending on where we settle the second city, it may be unecessary. If we can place the city with 2 good tiles in the immediate vicinity, we won't need an obelisk for some time. Slavery sooner is a bigger benfit to Kyoto and chopping will be helpful to the second city. Of course, if we do go mysticim first, we have more leeway wih the location of the second city, which definitely has its own advantages.

As for goody huts, I don't think they're going to be safe until after we've established our second city. I've never seen a hut pop barbs from a border expansion, but I've also never popped a hut with an expansion from my second city. My guess would be that barbs in such a scenario are possible.

Now, you argue (I think) that the map designer probably deliberately avoided putting any better locations nearby, perhaps by editing them out or regenerating the map, in order to avoid giving an advantage to the teams who are lucky in their exploration (or who cheat). I don't have any way of assessing how true that is. My inclination is to play as I would if the map were random, and that would be to explore for a few turns.
Yes, this is my argument. The SGOTM comes out once every few months; this gives the designer a lot of time to establish the type of map (s)he desires. Many teams would be very frustrated if there were a greatly superior settling position within a few moves of the initial position, giving the teams that cheat or by luck happen upon it a huge leg up; such a map is potentially very unbalancing to the game's results, which doesn't help the competition. Therefore any great position is usually close by so as to be exposed by a simple obvious move such as to see if there's superior land 'just over that hill', rewarding those who take such basic moves but not setting up a situation where initial luck plays a huge factor. Often in the regular GOTMs Goody Huts are removed so that wild luck isn't as much a major factor; the focus is placed on the player's and team's decisions, not on how lucky they are.

Having said that, I am not opposed to some exploration; in this case there is benefit in exploring, which results in more commerce for research. Even if we only find a comparable position, we will be applying 7 more cpt towards research so we gain some benefit (at the loss of developing a city with extra food and extra commerce available.)

A quick question - if we didn't have Kyoto already established as capital, would you settle here or explore?

I think Mysticism takes about 75 commerce to research. I think the capital city gets 10 commerce initially (8 from Palace and 2 from tile); with no 2nd city that means Mysticism, or Mining, in 8; 2nd city would add 2 commerce and subtract 7, so Myst or Mining in 15. If we explore first, we might as well start on Mining first; after that we can decide if the 2nd city needs obelisks right away or not, or if we continue on to BronzeWorking. If we settle right away, we should go for Mysticism; about the time we learn it the 2nd Warrior would have just been completed allowing us to start on an Obelisk.

BTW, unless Kyoto can reach land somewhere, I don't see much to use Slavery for here initially.

And I have no information about Goody Huts being popped by culture.

we will be applying 7 more cpt towards research
I think it is only 5 cpt more since the new city will produce 2 cpt (1 from city + 1 from FP)

A quick question - if we didn't have Kyoto already established as capital, would you settle here or explore?
I would settle 1NW on the first turn

I think the capital city gets 10 commerce initially (8 from Palace and 2 from tile);
+1 from city tile = 11cpt

few other notes:
- the longer we delay our second city the weaker its defenses will be. since we will be facing raging barbs, we MUST consider our defenses.
- for that purpose we may want archery soon (in the case that we do not have copper near by)
- I never got barbs from huts by the way of city expansion

My vote goes to settling on the first turn.
we can research Myst in 75/(11+2-7) = 13 (12.5) turns
we can produce a second warrior in the second city and start on a worker after that.

The SGOTM comes out once every few months; this gives the designer a lot of time to establish the type of map (s)he desires. Many teams would be very frustrated if there were a greatly superior settling position within a few moves of the initial position, giving the teams that cheat or by luck happen upon it a huge leg up; such a map is potentially very unbalancing to the game's results, which doesn't help the competition.

A contrary argument is that, if the correct best strategy is to explore for a better site, the teams that do that should be rewarded, and the only way to do that is to give players a choice. You may have a better insight into the mind of the map designer than I do, but if I were the designer, I would stick with random, rather than try to "play God" in determining how players should play and rewarding them for playing the way I think they should.

Even if we only find a comparable position, we will be applying 7 more cpt towards research so we gain some benefit (at the loss of developing a city with extra food and extra commerce available.)

Indeed.

A quick question - if we didn't have Kyoto already established as capital, would you settle here or explore?

If this were our first city, I would settle 1NW without hesitation, unless the warrior on the hill reveals something very attractive.

BTW, unless Kyoto can reach land somewhere, I don't see much to use Slavery for here initially.

If we go on a relatively direct path to Writing after BW, we'll be able to rush a Granary, and then a Library, then create 2 scientists. That seems pretty useful.

The focus is not to reward a team for playing a certain way, but to limit any team from benefitting greatly through happenstance, at least initially. If there were a far superior starting location a few moves away, only teams that happened upon it would benefit. Were they lucky or employing correct strategy? What about the team that decided to look for a better starting location but headed the wrong direction - they employed the same strategy with a far different outcome. Or there is not great location, and some teams wander around for a long time before founding. To some extent, the designer(s) will try to prevent that from happening.

One way they do this is to set up a starting location that is good enough that teams will not feel they have to look for another. That way all teams start equally, and it will be their choices from that point forward that determine their outcome. This is why I asked if you would found here in a normal game; since you would, I don't anticipate any better location except one we happen upon by luck - we could also end up a bear's dinner, but that's luck of another sort! Not sure if its worthwhile to risk an event that's so all or nothing in this SG, especially if we're near a good starting location. It is worthwhile to peak over the hill with the warrior in any event.

Maybe we should found right away, maybe we shouldn't. It will be a question of what we want to research and how fast. I lean towards founding to the NW right away - even with the reduced research time I'd like to see this city started. Most likely Mysticism first, followed by Pottery.

Kyoto and slavery - absolutely agree about Granary and Library! My comment was in the context of what order to research in; if Kyoto can reach other lands, BW moves up. If not, it can wait a little for Myst and possibly Pottery.

malekithe - what time zone are you in? Game saves should be available tonight, around midnight Mountain USA time (I believe.) I think we're all agree about the warrior to the hill move so you might as well load it up, do that move and report.

This is why I asked if you would found here in a normal game; since you would, I don't anticipate any better location except one we happen upon by luck

Sorry, but this doesn't make sense. In a normal game, I would expect that I could find a better location within a half-dozen turns of exploring, but I would also expect that the cost of delaying my 1st city would be greater than the benefit from the improved location. In this game, the calculation is very different, because the delay doesn't cost us nearly as much. Also, finding a location that's good without cultural expansion is more important than it would be in a normal game.

we could also end up a bear's dinner, but that's luck of another sort! Not sure if its worthwhile to risk an event that's so all or nothing in this SG, especially if we're near a good starting location.

If we have 8 turns before animals appear, I think we should definitely settle within those 8 turns. That would still let us explore quite a bit.

I think we're all agree about the warrior to the hill move so you might as well load it up, do that move and report.

Yep, I'd like to see the screenshot if possible.

malekithe - what time zone are you in?

US - Pacific

I think we're all agree about the warrior to the hill move so you might as well load it up, do that move and report.

Roger that. I'll report back shortly after the save is available.

I loaded the save: one thing I could see immediately is that there's another river NE of the rice. In the animated motion of the game, it's very clear: you can see the water flowing into the ocean.

Looking at what I can see of the terrain, I think the warrior should actually move NE rather than E. This will give us more of a view of the territory past the river, which is what we're the most interested in. Unless there's something on the hill 2E of our settler, which seems relatively unlikely.

Agreed. NE does look like the better option for warrior movement. I made that move and attached an image of the current situation.

The sheep next to the river are attractive, but are they attractive enough to warrant settling directly to their north? I'd say it's to soon to tell. But I definitely think we've seen enough for it to be worth moving the settler up on top of the hill. Thoughts...?

That sheep looks great.
I would move the settler NE, and then NE,N settling on the 3rd turn.
That will gain us 3 things:
1. we do not need to research Myst for some time
2. 2 turns of full research (on mining? Agri?)
3. potential 1 less gpt on maintenance

the fish and the FP tile will be used by the 3rd city.

Edit: if we do not follow worker techs, I suggest starting producing a warrior while growing to size2. we need defenses!

I agree the spot NE,NE,N looks good. I'm not ready to say that we should settle there for sure, though. There's still some more exploring to do. My current plan though the next couple turns is to move the warrior NE, NE and the settler NE, NE-E. On turn three we'd then need to choose whether to continue moving or settle right above the sheep.

I'm also planning on starting research on Mining. Mysticism doesn't look quite as attractive now and can wait a while. Agriculture might also be a possiblility, though.

I won't continue the turnset until we've heard from a few more people, so feel free to take your time formulating an opinion.

I see 3 very reasonable city sites:

1. Build on the rice. This gets us 3f/turn from the center (immediately), and it lets us work the sheep (immediately) and the floodplain (eventually). Given that the rice is not irrigated, we get as much from building on it as from building next to it, and the immediate benefit without needing worker or tech is very nice. The bad thing about this plan is that we probably can't ever work the fish from a 3rd city. :mad:

2. Build W of rice. This gets us the most long-term potential for our city (fish, rice, sheep, floodplain), but we need an obelisk.

3. Build on the river (N or NE or E of sheep). This is good if we find another resource that the city can work. Otherwise, I think site 1 or site 2 is better.

If we move the settler NW,NE then we still have all 3 options on turn 2 (including settle in place). On the other hand, we slow down our exploration, compared to settler NE. I think information is more important than the option to choose site 2 immediately. If we want site 2, it doesn't hurt to wait a few turns, as we get faster research and we're going to need Mysticism to make that site really work.

I believe we can probably find another resource to work along with the sheep, but it may take 2-3 turns of exploration to find.

We also have a research decision. Agriculture doesn't look so important to me. (Even if we don't settle on the rice, I'm as happy to put a cottage on it, as a farm.) So we could start with Hunting (to unlock AH cheaply, plus potential for archers). Or we could start with Mining or Pottery, reserving the option to switch to Hunting or Agriculture or Mysticism when we know where our city will be.

I'll cast a somewhat ambivalent vote for: settler NE, research Hunting, warrior NE, then post another screenshot. I could easily be persuaded to something else, though.

P.S. This is a suspicious map. The random map generator doesn't put rice and sheep adjacent, right?

I'm not sure what resources the random map generator will place together, but I am sure that this map is not entirely random. :)

Currently I would agree that 1 W of Rice is the strongest city site candidate as of right now; it gets all known bonus tiles within range with 1 cultural expansion.

However, it initially uses just the Rice, which is 3 food and no commerce, and has 1 2F/1H forest adjacent to it. Our initial city site, NW of the Settler uses the Floodplain initially (3F/0H and 1C), and has 3 2F/1H forests adjacent to it (and another forest to the SW it appears). We are 1C/turn ahead, and have more access to 2F/1H spaces. Also, after getting Mysticism and building an Obelisk, developing the Fish requires no additional Techs whereas developing the Sheep will require 2 Techs. Right now I think we are better off founding on the original space NW of the Settler and anticipate a 2nd city (perhaps NE-NE-N) that can use the Sheep and share the Rice, thus allowing us to delay researching to AH until this city is about to be founded. And we may find another site further along the 2nd river that looks even better.

Either way, we don't have to found yet. Is it a good idea to see what else the original river might have had by moving the Settler 1 SW? And then perhaps 1 E, or 1 SE? This would expose a lot of territory, not sure if there's any risk on the first turn, but going 1 SW 1E would allow the Settler to get to any of the sites we've discussed within 2 turns.

Unless we decide to found on the Rice, it appears we need Mysticism, and at this time that's what I think we should research, although I do want to look at research times and production costs - perhaps Mining to BW, to Myst might work out better, since our Production at city #2 wont be the greatest either.

Steve makes a good point---we haven't ruled out that the original proposed site (1NW of settler) could have an additional resource available to it, that we can't see right now. There could even be something in the forest 2W (i.e., deer) that we could work immediately. It seems a bit foolish to go toward the sheep without ruling that out.

So now I think the settler should either move NW (which at least lets us look at more tiles, before deciding to settle or keep moving) or SW (which lets us see a lot more tiles). From the space NW, we should be able to see 5 out of 6 unknown tiles in that location's fat cross. From the space SW, we will see at least 5 new tiles, perhaps more. I prefer either of these moves to going NE, which gives us only 2 new tiles to see, and those are tiles that the warrior will recon next turn anyway.

An argument for looking to the south is that, if we do find a suitable site to settle, then the space 1W of rice will be a great site for a 3rd city later, once we already have some research, and a worker built to chop a forest for obelisk. And it would still be nice to find a plains hill to give ourselves a jumpstart (and perhaps defense).

I'll be able to continue for a turn and post a screenshot in about 6 hours (~7:00 PDT).

Some more quick thoughts:

We need to be very careful not to give ourselves too many early research goals. Currently, the list stands at Myst, AH, Bronze, and Pottery. That'll take a long while to complete.

I'm in absolutely no hurry to plunk down that second city. No matter where we settle in the known area, the city's first build would almost certainly need to be a warrior (for lack of anything else useful). By waiting till later, we lose that warrior (and some growth) but we gain 5 commerce per turn. When we do found the city it can start on something immediately useful such as an obelisk or a worker. We don't need a warrior right from the start. Barbs won't be a threat for at least another 1500 years.

I'd much rather keep the settler moving east. That is the direction which will lower our maintenance costs. While moving to the SW to reveal all that terrain looks attractive, I can't actually see it being useful when deciding where to settle. We certainly don't want to increase our maintenance costs.

If we settle near the sheep, starting with hunting makes sense. In most other scenarios, Mining or Mysticim makes more sense. My inclination is to delay choosing until the second turn when we have more information available. (and then choose mining ;) )

No matter where we settle in the known area, the city's first build would almost certainly need to be a warrior (for lack of anything else useful).

I'm not certain of that. We can start with workboat or worker (perhaps switching to obelisk when we get Mysticism, and then back when the obelisk is finished).

While moving to the SW to reveal all that terrain looks attractive, I can't actually see it being useful when deciding where to settle.

It could be. If we see something really good near the river (e.g., pigs, or corn, or gold), surely we would settle near it.

We could settle for moving NW, planning to settle in place if we see another resource. If not, continue NE, planning to settle there next turn if the warrior doesn't reveal something better to the east. Research Mysticism, because we'll need it in the coastal locations. Initial build on the coast would be workboat.

But if it were just up to me, I still think I would go SW. As you say, we're in no hurry to settle, and so we can always go back to 1NW or 2N if we like those locations better, without having lost much.

If we settle near the sheep, starting with hunting makes sense. In most other scenarios, Mining or Mysticim makes more sense. My inclination is to delay choosing until the second turn when we have more information available. (and then choose mining ;) )

How can you delay choosing until the second turn? When you end the first turn, you'll have to pick what to put your first turn beakers into, right?

How can you delay choosing until the second turn? When you end the first turn, you'll have to pick what to put your first turn beakers into, right?

The first turn beakers are just treated as overflow beakers unless you chose a tech during the first turn. If you reach the second turn without having selected a tech, those first-turn beakers aren't applied until the end of that second turn.

But if it were just up to me, I still think I would go SW. As you say, we're in no hurry to settle, and so we can always go back to 1NW or 2N if we like those locations better, without having lost much.

I see your point. We're not losing much by just taking a complete look around the starting area and deciding where we want to go a little bit later. My gut instinct is to just ignore this whole area and start heading east. I wouldn't want to be tempted by gold or something showing up a few tiles SW and then dealing with an even higher maintenance second city. But, if I'm the only one who feels that way then I'm definitely going to listen to the rest of the group.

Right now it appears as if the favored course of action is settler SW (then what, just best direction to reveal more tiles?). Unless I hear otherwise in the next 3 hours or so, I think I'll go ahead with that and report back.

Also, am I too worried about the maintenance costs of this second city? I just fear that if we settle it around the current location it will cripple our early game too much, especially given how many techs we seem to need.

I'm worried about maintenance, but that's all the more reason to look for resources. If we can find a gold mine that gives us 7-8 commerce, then I won't be worried about paying +1 maintenance!

I think we should generally try to head east, on average, both for lower maintenance, and because if the warrior does find something great, we don't want to be far away. But civ_steve's idea is that we also want to be near a river, and SW lets us see where this river goes.

On the other hand, I am hesitant to go SW when we haven't fully checked out the "obvious site" 1NW. If it has access to another resource, then that's the best place to settle, after all.

How about NW,SW, planning to go SE,SE on the second turn, which would give us a lot of information about the entire starting area? This seems like the most efficient exploration pattern, if our goal is to gather as much information as possible without leaving "gaps".

My current vote is settler NW, to be followed by another screenshot---from there we could either go NE, or SW, or settle in place, depending on what we see.

I took a look or two at research costs vs what Techs to learn, vs what a city might want to be able to do right away. Nothing is very clear cut. Assuming that we want the Obelisk to expand our borders, it seems to make sense to research Myst first before BW, but it's real close either way. By the time we can learn BW, Kyoto and the 2nd city are roughly size 3 (assuming city #2 is founded around turns 5 or 6), so we're at 10 commerce/turn and Mysticism would only take 8 more turns to learn after BW.

Obelisk and WB (if desired after we scout around some more) cost 45 each, roughly, and if we went straight to BW, we would have about 45 hammers into city #2's production, so we could just be finishing off one item and ready to pop-rush the other. Probably have time to build a Warrior or two with the 8 extra turns. This is assuming we found at the spot NW, and want the Fish.

So I'm staying with Mysticism first, then Mining-BW, work on Obelisk once we can, build it, then pop-rush the WB after a turn of production once we know BW. Assuming NW, which may not hold.

A gold hill would be a big plus! Still need Mining and a Worker but you know the city will be + commerce pretty quickly.

I'd rather go SW with Settler, and assume we wont be founding until at least turn 2.

Obelisk and WB (if desired after we scout around some more) cost 45 each, roughly, and if we went straight to BW, we would have about 45 hammers into city #2's production, so we could just be finishing off one item and ready to pop-rush the other.

Don't forget that, once you build the Obelisk, you still have to wait 15 turns for border expansion! That's a long time! This makes it very important to build the Obelisk as early as possible. The Workboat is a much lower priority (we could almost wait to start it after the Obelisk is done, and still finish it by the time we need it without rushing or chopping).

I'd rather go SW with Settler, and assume we wont be founding until at least turn 2.

Even if we want to explore to the south for a couple of turns, don't you think that NW-SW followed by SE-SE makes sense? E.g., we will all feel very stupid if we go SW-SE and it turns out that there's clams or crabs right next to the NW site, and we never saw it.

For the sake of moving things forward, I played both of the settler moves for the first turn; NW, SW. Didn't turn up anything interesting at all. We need to get back to the east. I'm in favor of SE, SE next turn while the warrior explores to the NE (or maybe SE?).

We need to get back to the east. I'm in favor of SE, SE next turn while the warrior explores to the NE (or maybe SE?).

Sounds good to me. I don't see any reason to keep going west. I favor NE for the warrior, and then SE-SE for the settler (unless the warrior finds something interesting).

P.S. Please post screenshots with yield display and resource bubbles turned on, if you can.

P.S. Please post screenshots with yield display and resource bubbles turned on, if you can.

Yeah, I meant to. I had already uploaded the attachment by the time I realized I'd forgotten to turn them on. And, seeing as screenshots aren't quite as straightforward for me as most people (running on Windows Vista, don't ask...) I opted to not redo it. I'll be more thorough in the future.

P.S. At this point, I definitely think we should research Mysticism first, unless we get some new revelation. If we eventually return to the 1NW or 2N site, our highest priority will be border expansion to use the fish. By researching Mysticism first, we might actually get to work the fish---and thus have a rapidly growing city---faster than if we founded the city sooner. But that won't be true if we spend turns on Mining.

I went ahead and pressed "End Turn" on the first turn. Something very interesting happened IBT. Isabella's scout showed up to the NE. Madrid must be very close. Does this increase the importance of settling earlier? I'm unconvinced, but I'd very much like to hear what others think.

You might as well move warrior NW, at least. That can't be wrong. Maybe we'll even see Isabella's borders.

My first reaction is that we should try to steal Isabella's worker. Isabella is a prime target for worker stealing, as she starts with a scout rather than a 2nd archer. And she doesn't like us anyway; all the more reason to feel free to piss her off. I'd be glad to cripple her early, by taking her worker, so we can take her out later.

So, it would be nice to settle relatively soon, and start on a warrior for additional defense, especially since there's a good chance we'll lose our first warrior when stealing. But we still want a good site.

I think we now have enough information to set our starting path. Our warrior found gems next to the sheep! I think the best move will be to settle one north of the sheep. The most important task will be to get that gem mine operational as quickly as possible. First tech should probably be mining while the city builds a worker (unless we steal one). Worker will come pretty late in that scenario, though, so we could probably squeeze something in before mining. Mysticim is an option, but, in that position, I don't see it as being much of a priority. Maybe hunting?

If we do steal a worker instead of building one from scratch then leading with a warrior makes the most sense and mining earlier may be even more important. We should be able to get that stolen worker back to our terrotory very quickly, and it'd be nice if he had something to do ASAP. There is a potential hiccup if the worker stealing doesn't go as planned, but we can address that when necessary.

EDIT: clarified some thoughts...

I'm not up on what various civs get initially at the different levels. What units does Isabella get vs somebody else?

Gems changes things! The grassland where the Warrior is looks great for a first city (a bit better than the Plains space north of the Gems I think) - eventual extra commerce from the Gems, fast growth from the Rice, and can use the Sheep as well. Also, being coastal will allow our coastal cities to link up. The Warrior can determine if there's anything else up the river to change the settle location.

Mining looks like the clear winner for 1st Tech, especially if we steal a Worker from Isabella. I think we should settle here as soon as we can get the Settler over to this space (unless Warrior sees something else), and start building Warriors. Reseach path - Mining, followed by BW. A timely pop-rush may get us the units to finish Isabella off early.

Notice that the fairly obvious move of the Warrior to the Hill would reveal both Sheep and Gems, giving teams that do this a much clearer path for the first few turns; we are probably 1 turn behind teams that did this because they would have seen the gems and moved their Settler this way immediately. Placing a 2nd civ close by is probably by design as well, and Worker poaching appears to be the path to best result.

Do we want to scope out Isabella's territory with the first Warrior while building the 2nd? Or wait until the 2nd is nearly complete? I am a little concerned that she is this close, and this city will not be our Capital so the AI may be more aggressive in attacking it right off and we don't have the cultural expansion to give us extra warning time. I would probably keep the 1st warrior close by until a 2nd is nearly ready.

I'm not up on what various civs get initially at the different levels. What units does Isabella get vs somebody else?

Usually, at Monarch, most leaders get 2 archers and a worker, while leaders with Hunting get 1 archer, 1 scout, and a worker. But Isabella doesn't usually start with Hunting! Clearly this is a non-standard start; we can't really know what she has.

Notice that the fairly obvious move of the Warrior to the Hill would reveal both Sheep and Gems, giving teams that do this a much clearer path for the first few turns; we are probably 1 turn behind teams that did this because they would have seen the gems and moved their Settler this way immediately.

Yes, this is exactly why I hate the design approach of deciding what moves the players "should" make, and setting up the map to reward them. The move the designer thinks best, often isn't really the best move. The gems could easily have been on a hill 1NE of our current warrior location, and we would have been able to see it with the NE move but not with the hill move.

However, I don't think one turn of delay is a big deal (especially since we're getting an extra 4-5 commerce in return).

Placing a 2nd civ close by is probably by design as well, and Worker poaching appears to be the path to best result.

We don't know how feasible it will be to steal a worker. If she's more powerful than a standard Monarch start, it may be harder to steal her worker. But the payoff is high, so I think we should try---definitely, we should focus on exploration toward this end. I don't think we have to defend our city with our warrior, especially since she's exploring with only a scout. In general, the AI won't attack this early, and once we're at war will want to defend its capital.

The grassland where the Warrior is looks great for a first city (a bit better than the Plains space north of the Gems I think) - eventual extra commerce from the Gems, fast growth from the Rice, and can use the Sheep as well. Also, being coastal will allow our coastal cities to link up. The Warrior can determine if there's anything else up the river to change the settle location.

The space SE of sheep may be an even better city site; we should check it out, before we have to decide.

Mining looks like the clear winner for 1st Tech, especially if we steal a Worker from Isabella. I think we should settle here as soon as we can get the Settler over to this space (unless Warrior sees something else), and start building Warriors. Reseach path - Mining, followed by BW. A timely pop-rush may get us the units to finish Isabella off early.

Actually, I would suggest Hunting first. We're going to need it to unlock AH, for sure. And we may want archers to rush Isabella (or defend against her)---Hunting first gives us that option.

Mining is quick enough that we can get it when we need it. We're going to need AH for extra food, before we can reasonably consider pop rushing, so the value of BW is minimal unless/until we get a worker. Similarly, if we want to rush Isabella, we're going to need Hunting and Archery, probably---unless our first city happens to have copper!

If we finish Hunting, we can decide between Mining, Archery, or AH next, depending on what we learn about Isabella.

At this point, I'd also suggest warrior as first build, but we have three more turns before we have to decide that, and we may learn more about Isabella in the meantime.

Here's my suggestion for the next couple of turns:

1. Finish this turn with settler NE-NE, switch research to Hunting.
2. Next turn, move settler E-E, then warrior SE.
3. Next turn, move warrior SE or S.

Then make city site decision, based on available info (post screenshot if decision is unclear).

Moving the warrior NE next is also possible, and may give us more information about Isabella, but I think it's more important to thoroughly investigate the site 1SE of sheep before we found our city. That site may have another resource in its initial boundary! We lose rice until 1st expansion, but is that a big deal? 3f0c0h is not really that great.

The design intent is not to force teams to pursue a best path but to try to ensure a more or less equivalent start. If there's an initial 'obvious' choice, we should take it. :) And I agree, 1 turn is not a big deal.
In general, the AI won't attack this early, and once we're at war will want to defend its capital.
Well, the AI Aggression is set higher, this isn't our capital, and we know from multiple examples that this is not an 'in general' game. I wouldn't expect the unexpected at every turn, but I would definitely examine closely any assumptions gained from general play.

Also, very interesting that Isabella has a scout. Was this an additional unit, or did it replace one of the Archers? Has her attributes been changed? I guess time will tell. Maybe pre-game play showed that with the higher aggression level the nearby civ steamrolled our lonely Warrior and Settler, so the change out was to give us a chance. (In which case, she'd be made weaker, and I wouldn't leave our Settler unescorted.)

Good arguments for Hunting; we would want the faster growth and AH before pop-rushing, and Mining can be picked up relatively quickly. Yes, I'd like to know if there's something SE of the Gems as well before final decision on a city site. Another Warrior is definitely called for. If we settle on the Grassland at the river mouth, do we use the Rice for Growth, or the Forest for more Production? Normally I would use the Rice.

As I see it, the debate between hunting and mining depends on how early we can steal a worker. If we can nab one in the first 10 turns or so, then I think mining first makes sense, as it lets us get the gem mine up very early. If we're planning on delaying the worker steal until after we have a warrior in place, then grabbing hunting first is a better play. What's everybody's opinion on the timing of the worker steal? I'm in favor of doing it as soon as we can and leading with mining. After that, we can get Hunting and Animal Husbandry quicker with the help of the gems.

I'll be sending the warrior to the SE. To scope out the alternate city spot. I'll post another screenshot in two turns when the settler is in position and we have a better view of the area. Once again, I should be able to report back at around 7:00 PDT.

I agree, if we can steal a worker very early (and we don't get wiped out by Isabella in return), then Mining first is best. That will accelerate our progress to AH and then BW. We can also mine the grassland hill for more warrior production (eventually archers).

An early worker steal is also ideal since animals will become a problem soon.

I wish we knew what techs Isabella has. Does she have the usual Fishing and Mysticism? (So the scout is just an oddball unit given to her, or maybe she got it from a hut?) In that case, her worker probably won't be accessible, since she doesn't have anything for it to do.

If we aren't going to get a worker steal early (either because we don't get the opportunity, or it's too dangerous), then it probably doesn't matter too much whether we choose Hunting or Mining first---we're going to want to build our own worker before we can get to AH, I think, so we'll want Mining before AH, so we might as well do Mining before Hunting.

The only clear reason to do Hunting before Mining is if we think we need archers for the worker steal, and that probably doesn't make sense (takes too long to research and build them). We're better off getting archers by getting Mining first for faster research, and AH for more growth, and perhaps even BW for rushing and chopping (although that's adding up to a long time).

Overall, I'm ok with your plan for the next 2 turns (explore SE with warrior, research Mining), and then we'll see.

In my games I usually forego Hunting and Archery until I can trade for them, so I'm quite comfortable with Mining first, try for the early Worker steal (if available). I don't think we need Archers for the Worker steal, and I would only go for Hunting to lead us to AH. (Ag may be a better path.)

In my games I usually forego Hunting and Archery until I can trade for them, so I'm quite comfortable with Mining first, try for the early Worker steal (if available). I don't think we need Archers for the Worker steal, and I would only go for Hunting to lead us to AH. (Ag may be a better path.)

This game is unusual in that founding additional cities is very expensive for us, so we may be more inclined to build archers than we normally would (assuming we need to found an extra city in order to get access to copper or iron).

But an advantage of Mining first is that we can delay the decision on Agriculture vs Hunting, as a path to AH.

At the moment, I see zero use for Agriculture in the short-to-medium term, so I would favor Hunting just because it's cheaper. But, of course, that could change, if we discover some new resource to be developed.

Sorry guys, I haven't gotten back to Civ yet today. Been stuck at work all day (and night...). I should get to it in the next couple hours and have something posted that we can discuss over the next 24 hours.

Okay, this is starting to get sort of funny. You guys remember back when we thought we'd be strapped for cash in the beginning? Well, turns out we were wrong...

Check out the screenshot. More gems and gold turned up to the east. We've got enough potential commerce to go for a CS slingshot if we wanted! If we continue with the plan of settling to the SE of the settler, we've got an absolutely phenomenal spot; 2 gems, gold, sheep, rice, and likely 2 floodplains. The only other spot I *might* consider is the plains hill 2S. We'd lose the river health (and possibly the chance to work a 3P1C tile from the start), but we'd gain the extra hammer. Really, though, I think the spot 1 SE is the clear winner.

It's amazing, the whole complexion of this game has changed radically in the space of three to four turns.

I second the call for SE. I do not think it is on the river but it seems like a great city location.
I think it is better than 2S for the following reasons:
1. In the start of the game food is very important. SE has higher food potential (sheep at the first ring and 1 extra FP after that)
2. in the late game commerce is very important. SE has much more river tiles.

I think that SE location will be a great place for a commerce/production combo. we will have enough food from sheep/rice/FP to mine all the hills and gems and cottage all the rest. 1 exception is the tile that is currently N of the settler. we will want to farm it to bring irrigation to the rice later on.

Wow. We're on page 4 already. :ack:

LOL you have found commerce heaven! Good luck guys :)

:eek: :woohoo: My mind is boggled! SE for sure! And it is on the River, or at least it shows a Coin.

Uh ... wow again! We will need an Obelisk; definitely need Mining. SE has no bonus food initially but AH will give us the Sheep. Gonna need a Worker. Looks like we get at least 1 Floodplain, maybe 2 upon expansion. With lack of bonus food initially I think we still play for Worker Poaching and build Warriors.

Both AH and Mining need a Worker to realize their potential, so I think we still learn Mining first. Build Warriors and look for opportunity to snag Worker. After Mining I think the Hunting-AH combo. After that I guess we see. Will want Mysticism, Pottery and BronzeWorking, in some order.

If we found our city SE, I feel strongly that we should start with worker first. We can build a worker in 23 turns (working sheep @4/turn). If we grow to size 2, then build a worker, it's much longer (17 turns to grow @2/turn, then 18 turns to build worker @5/turn). That's a lot of turns that we're not getting the extra commerce from our gems.

If the worker steal looks feasible, we can switch to warrior, but I think the cost of delaying, if it turns out we can't steal a worker, is quite high. We don't even know for sure that Isabella's capital is near us. Maybe she's off on an island, too, and just has a scout here.

In the long run, it's looking very tempting to run a CS slingshot and move our capital to city 2.

I suggest that Malekithe plays on until either you finish Mining, or spot Isabella's borders with your warrior. Either way, that's a decision point. Hunting is a faster route to AH, but that's offset by the fact that Agriculture gives a discount on Pottery, so the total cost of researching (Hunting, AH, Pottery) is about the same as (Agriculture, AH, Pottery).

Wow. We're on page 4 already. :ack:

You can change the number of posts per page in forum options. ;)

Out of 22 teams, only 7 have fewer posts than we do. Several have more than twice as many.

If the worker steal looks feasible, we can switch to warrior, but I think the cost of delaying, if it turns out we can't steal a worker, is quite high. We don't even know for sure that Isabella's capital is near us. Maybe she's off on an island, too, and just has a scout here.
I agree with that reasoning. After founding the city, I plan to start building a worker and exploring to the north in search of Madrid (with the warrior).


In the long run, it's looking very tempting to run a CS slingshot and move our capital to city 2.

That's what I was thinking. Especially tempting for Tokugawa...


I suggest that Malekithe plays on until either you finish Mining, or spot Isabella's borders with your warrior. Either way, that's a decision point. Hunting is a faster route to AH, but that's offset by the fact that Agriculture gives a discount on Pottery, so the total cost of researching (Hunting, AH, Pottery) is about the same as (Agriculture, AH, Pottery).
Roger that. Also, how many turns are we planning on each of us playing in the early game? If I go all the way through the completion of mining, that'll be somwhere around 12-15 turns, I think. As to the hunting vs. agriculture question, I think it comes down mostly to whether we think we're going to need archers early.

Agreed, CS slingshot (or Machinery) is especially tempting because of the samurai, and because we don't want to found a lot of cities so we can easily dump hammers into the oracle.

I think we should aim for about 15 turns per player, in the early game; if you finish Mining without finding Isabella, that would probably be a good time to pass control to the next player. There will be more early decisions in this game than most.

I agree that one benefit of Hunting is unlocking Archery. We may need archers for defense. And, if we do steal Isabella's worker, I'm going to be tempted to chop a bunch of archers and rush her. We can use her capital better than she can. :-)

The other benefit of Hunting is that it may get us to AH a few turns sooner, thus we can improve the sheep a few turns sooner, which is a benefit even if the total cost to eventually get Pottery is the same.

We may also want Mysticism before Pottery; that gold hill looks awfully sweet., and our best cottage sites will also require cultural expansion. That would be yet another argument for the quickest route to AH: i.e., Hunting-AH-Mysticism and only then think about BW, Pottery, Writing.

On the whole, given the limited benefit of Agriculture, I'm definitely leaning toward Hunting next. But maybe when we found our city we'll discover that our fat cross also has Wheat. :)

Agreed, CS slingshot (or Machinery) is especially tempting because of the samurai, and because we don't want to found a lot of cities so we can easily dump hammers into the oracle.
My biggest worry with the CS slingshot is the raging barbarians. I'm unsure to what degree we'll be able to divert hammers away from military. It will depend mostly on how close our opponenets are. In any event, we'll likely want to get started on some fog-busting warriors (or archers) as soon as we have a worker. More definite plans on the likelihood of a CS slingshot can wait till later.

I was wondering about building Worker first; stealing it is potentially faster but more risky. So I agree about building Worker first; the Gems will speed us along to our other desired Techs.

malekithe - we typically go longer with the initial turnset, since there's usually less to do. 15 turns is fine, but you might want to do 20. Most teams will go 20 turns for their first player and it is easier to compare results if the uploaded save files are at common dates. Usually 10 turns for turnsets 2 to n, but we can go a bit longer initially if we don't want to fall too far behind the other teams, and we'll be at common dates every other turnset if following players go for 15 turns.

This has been by far the most discussed first turnset I've been involved with! Definitely a good thing, as the decisions keep changing, but I think we're getting the game in good focus by now. Very good of you to support this communal play in this manner, malekithe! :goodjob:

Good Luck!

I pretty much stuck with the plan, only playing one extra turn after getting mining to make it an even 15 turns.

First of all, it appears our assumption that the world wraps was incorrect. So, in trying to reduce our maintenance by moving east, we actually increased it. This was somewhat dissapointing, but it could have been a lot worse, I suppose.

Second, Madrid is nowehere in the immediate vicinity to the north. My guess is that the scout was placed nearby to throw us off. I'm glad we started on the worker already.


Turn 3, 3910 BC: Osaka has been founded. Upkeep cost is 8 GPT. Research slider set to 40% (and would thereafter alternate between 40% and 50% each turn)

Turn 6, 3820 BC: The borders of Kyoto have expanded. Spotted land with cattle and stone.

Turn 10, 3700 BC: The villagers give you gold! You have received 32 gold! All of this was used to speed the research on Mining. I was torn over whether to spend it immediately or wait till later. In the end, I decided it didn't make much difference.

Turn 12, 3640 BC: You have discovered Mining. I then set research to Hunting, which we've sunk one turn's worth of beakers into.

I don't think there was anything else of any significance. See the screenshots for details regarding the northern terrain.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_BC3580_01.Civ4SavedGame

It looks like building Osaka on the plains hill would have been better, after all, since it's next to an oasis. You could have noticed that it had fresh water (we couldn't tell that from the screenshot).

As Steve said, the map seems constructed to reward a certain strategy (move the warrior to the hill, notice that the adjacent plains hill has fresh water, go there next turn and see the great site). We're going to be a few turns behind the leaders (not a big deal).

It's interesting that Kyoto can reach two more islands with cows and stone. We could build up a little empire out there, if we want.

I have no brilliant ideas for the moment. Research Hunting, then AH. Switch to warrior when the worker is done, and mine the gems on the river.

After AH, we'll probably want Mysticism.

It looks like building Osaka on the plains hill would have been better, after all, since it's next to an oasis. You could have noticed that it had fresh water (we couldn't tell that from the screenshot).


Quite true. I also could have noticed the no-wrapping but, alas, there are things I didn't think to do...

I doubt I would have done any better. I'll be more aware of the oasis possibility next time, though! (Any other source of fresh water, e.g., a lake, would have been visible.)

Very interesting! I guess the use of the Plains/Hills for a city would be desirable, so placing the Oasis adjacent to it makes it a really good choice. malekithe - when you were moving the Settler to the River Plains where we settled, did the game light up the Plains Hills with a light blue circle suggesting it as a city site? That might have provided another clue, in addition to the Fresh Water indication.

I think we accept 8 gpt cost for all the commerce bonuses! I wonder if there is a not as decent but pretty good site just to the West of the starting location.

I've copied the save, and am posting a 'got-it'! For now, I'll plan on playing about 15 turns, roughly to 3100 BC. Finish the Worker, then build Warrior. Worker starts mining Gems. Research towards AH, through Hunting.

After AH, do we grab BW to start working the Kyoto position? After next expansion we can reach either chunk of land from Kyoto. Or perhaps Mysticism first, then BW, so we can expand Osaka? Interesting that both locations have Stone nearby.

It's definitely an interesting question, do we want to build a galley and settlers, and colonize the islands near Kyoto? A lot depends on whether we're going to move our capital (relatively) soon. If the capital will stay at Kyoto, then the stone and cow cities are very worthwhile. If the capital moves to Osaka, not so much.

A city on stone island will have 3 hammers, and access to stone: it could build Stonehenge in 30 turns, or Lighthouse + Great Lighthouse in 44 turns (10+34). Does either of those make sense?

I'm leaning toward BW after AH. It would be nice to know where the copper is, and Slavery will also benefit Kyoto. It may even make sense to go BW-Pottery-Writing, skipping Mysticism. We can chop a granary for Osaka, then use a combo of chopping and poprushing to get a fast library after Writing. Especially if we manage to steal a 2nd worker!

We'll need to know more about both locations before we can decide where the Palace should be. BW after AH sounds good! If we found on Stone Island, do we get Stone in Kyoto too? If so the extra potential population at Kyoto might serve as good pop-rushing fodder for Wonders.

If we found on Stone Island, do we get Stone in Kyoto too?

Yes. (Assuming we have Sailing, which we'll need to get there anyway.)

If so the extra potential population at Kyoto might serve as good pop-rushing fodder for Wonders.

Unfortunately, there's a steep penalty for pop-rushing of World Wonders, which makes it basically infeasible.

Kyoto can build fairly expensive buildings, by building up excess population far over its happiness limit, and then using several pop to rush. When Kyoto is fully developed, it will be able to grow to about +6 over its happiness limit, so, in principle, can pop-rush buildings costing as much as 270 hammers. But much less for wonders. Building a 200-hammer wonder on stone island, the slow way, looks more feasible.

Here's the turn log:

Turn 0 - 3580 BC
Set Research to 0%, +5 Gold (from 1)
Everything appears as it should

Turn 1 - 3530 BC
Set Research back to 50%, -1 gpt, with 6 Gold in Bank; 10 turns to Hunting

Turn 2 - 3520 BC
Warrior has gone NE NE, still no sign of Isabella
A Peninsula is noted heading North; we will go SE now

Turn 3 - 3490 BC
Kyoto is Size 2; set Research to 60%; -1 gpt, 4 Gold, 6 turns to Hunting
Isabella's Scout heads up Peninsula

Turn 4 - 3460 BC
Come across a 2nd Spanish Scout; interesting

Turn 5 - 3430 BC

Turn 6 - 3400 BC
Warrior reaches Coast to East; lots of Jungle up here as well

Turn 7 - 3370 BC
Treasury is at zero; set Research to 50%; Hunting still in 2!

Turn 8 - 3340 BC
A 3rd Spanish Scout shows up just SE of Osaka

Turn 9 - 3310 BC
Ah, we learn Hunting, start on AH - 25 turns
Kyoto finishes WorkBoat; starts another
Workboat develops Fish

Turn 10 - 3280 BC

Turn 11 - 3250 BC
Isabella Scout to the NW; might be same one originally seen

Turn 12 - 3220 BC
Finally, Worker completes at Osaka, next a Warrior
Worker starts Mining the Northern Gem

Turn 13 - 3190 BC
Kyoto is Size 3; this matches the health Limit
At 50%, +1 Gold and AH in 18; we'll let Treasury go up for a little bit
Notice Wolf to the NW

Turn 14 - 3160 BC

Turn 15 - 3130 BC

Turn 16 - 3100 BC

Turn 17 - 3070 BC
Oops, went an extra Turn, but Worker finishes Mine
Set Research to 70%; AH in 8
An Isabella Scout shows up just to North of Osaka

end of log
I think I've seen 3 different Scouts from Isabella, but no indication of her empire. We're moving along our plan fairly well; first Fish is boated, and first Gems is mined, so our Commerce looks much better, and growth is good in Kyoto. A scout is right next to Osaka's culture at the end of the turn, so I hope there's no desire for aggression at this point! We'll have a Warrior built in Osaka in a couple of turns.

Over to you, ainwood! Here is the Save.

3070 BC Saved GAme (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_BC3070_01.Civ4SavedGame)

And a couple of images

1. We need a warrior in Kyoto for protection. Otherwise, we're going to have an increasing level of unhappiness as the city grows. I suggest we switch to warrior, and then back to the 2nd workboat when the warrior is done. We don't want to turn off growth, because the people we're piling up (even if they are unhappy) will eventually be useful for slavery.

2. Worker should immediately move to start the 2nd gem mine, of course. After that's done, we'll be ready to work on the sheep.

3. I think we should research Pottery after AH. We should get Pottery about when Osaka finishes its 2nd warrior build. Osaka starts building Granary while we research BW. When we discover BW, we can switch to Slavery and finish off the Granary with a poprush. Then research Writing and eventually pop rush a Library.

The other alternative is Mysticism first, for faster cultural expansion. That gets us more research in the short term, but less infrastructure. I don't think research without any buildings will be all that useful. (But, if AH reveals horses in our fat cross, then we should reconsider Mysticism!)

BW immediately after AH isn't so useful, because we don't have much to build yet. (Unless there's copper on the hill next to Osaka!)

Agreed, a warrior in Kyoto will be needed soon, but I also want to get a workboat out exploring soon as well. We need to find out if there's more land nearby on which to found more useful cities. I can't say I'm in favor of settling any more neary Kyoto unless we find a decent sized chunk of land. Knowing whether that land is there will aid in the decision to move the capital.

I'll tentatively agree that Pottery looks like the best choice once we finish AH. I wouldn't completely rule out BW, though. If there aren't any nearby horses, we'll need to find copper ASAP. Mysticism would be my last choice unless AH reveals horses in the second ring. We need to start thinking about military and barbarians soon. If they catch us unprepared, we could be toast. To that end, most of our focus should be on expanding production in order to turn out a fair number of chariots/axes/archers. Once the military is in place, we can focus on expanding our commercial output and growing our territory.

Do we still think a CS slingshot could be viable? In the absence of any known nearby opponents at this point, it doesn't look like an early axe rush will be possible. CS sling is my second favorite early game strategy after the axe rush, so I could still be up for giving it a go. My worries though are that we're having to research too many extraneous techs early and raging barbarians could present a significant obstacle. We could either delay too much building adequate military or risk bein overrun. If those two could be balanced, though, I think we stand a decent chance of pulling it off. It may dependent upon where we locate horses and copper. If we find ourselves having to build another city near Osaka before the capital is moved, we may not have the commerce to pull it off.

Is anybody in any hurry to get a settler out? I'm certainly not until we know where horses and copper are. But, assuming there are no immediately accessible horses, should we possibly start one somewhat soon (once we hit 3 pop in Osaka), with the goal of having it ready soon after we know where copper is?

It seems most likely we can't reach any other lands from Kyoto until, at least, we found cities on stone and cow islands and expand their borders. That's going to be quite some time. So I don't see exploration as a high priority. I don't think we should sacrifice growth (which is what workboat before warrior will do) just for the sake of curiosity.

We should assume, for now, that we have no horses or copper within the immediate borders of Osaka. Personally, I would prefer to simply defend ourselves with archers, rather than expand for resources. If we only have one (mainland) city, we don't need all that much defense. We can easily do the CS (or Machinery) slingshot. We can build cities on cow island and stone island which will ramp up our research even further, especially if we get the Colossus.

If we build a second mainland city, we'll need the settler, plus another worker, plus more troops, plus we'll have a negative cash flow from the 2nd city for a long time. It just doesn't seem like it's helping us, given our unusual situation with the remote capital.

Eventually, we will want several mainland cities, but maybe we'll just conquer them with Samurai, assuming we find a neighbor eventually. I'd rather keep a small profile until we're ready to expand really fast. New cities---if we build them soon---aren't going to pay for themselves for a long time, unless we find a really sweet site, which I haven't seen. We can't afford to move our palace, for quite some time. (It may well be most practical to wait for COL to expand aggressively, then we can build several cities and cheap courthouses and put the FP on the mainland, keeping our palace in Kyoto.)

Our research from Kyoto and Osaka is going to be really fast. I think it's going to be significantly faster if we don't build settlers for some time, than if we do.

One thing I'd be interested in trying to figure out is what Isabella started with. We should be able to draw some inferences about what she had, and has, from her score trajectory.

Finally, Pottery first is only going to delay BW by 7 turns or so. Not very much. And getting the granary will make it more practical to produce troops and/or expansion, if we need to.

OK - I'm having PC issues at the moment - this one is OK, but doesn't have CIV on it. The other one is being reformatted as I type.

If someone wants to play for me now, then that's fine. Otherwise, I hope to be able to play in the next 36 hours - but it depends if the reformat / reinstall solves my problems. :ack:

I'll update on the progress in a few hours from now.

It seems to me we should skip to MailMan (unless Ainwood confirms his computer is fixed before MailMan checks in). Maintaining a particular order seems not so important.

It seems most likely we can't reach any other lands from Kyoto until, at least, we found cities on stone and cow islands and expand their borders. That's going to be quite some time. So I don't see exploration as a high priority. I don't think we should sacrifice growth (which is what workboat before warrior will do) just for the sake of curiosity.

That seems like speculation to me. There's no way of knowing, at this point, if more land is reachable from the coasts surrounding cow and stone islands. If there is no way of reaching more land, then the costs of sending out an explorartory workboat is very small. I'll agree that warrior before workboat makes the most sense, but I still think that the next workboat should have a look around the northern islands.

If we switch to warrior before finishing the 2nd workboat in Kyoto, I have no big objection to using the 2nd workboat to take a quick look to the north. Personally I think it's still not best; I don't see anything we're going to do different in the short term regardless of what we see; but it's not a huge cost, and it's always possible we could learn something interesting, e.g., a foreign contact which will be useful.

Nope - still have video problems - a full reformat & reinstall didn't help. I've got a problem.

Anyone know anything about solving graphics problems - see this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4399495#post4399495). :(

@ainwood - I see in the the thread that the HW problem was solved.
Therefore, its your turn to play.
I will be able to play in 36h in the case that you can not play.

Once we've got Osaka fairly established (borders expanded and key resources developed), I don't think it would be too bad to get another city going if it's on the river with a few bonuses available to it, or somewhere else with good commerce sources. I don't see a need to build a Settler for quite a few turns though! Definitely not until we understand the circumstances at both Kyoto and Osaka.

Also, we've only come across some scattered (and planted it appears) Isabella scouts so far. Seems a little odd, and potentially means we're either isolated or the other civs are fairly far away. We will need some boats out exploring I think, so we will have to establish a coastal city in the not too distant future.

At Kyoto - I think I'd get the Warrior in place (I should have done that already!) before finishing a 2nd Workboat to go exploring. We can't profit much from that exploration for a while, so we should keep the city operating as well as possible.

For Research sounds like AH followed by Pottery, then BW. Sounds fine.

@ainwood - I see in the the thread that the HW problem was solved.
Therefore, its your turn to play.
I will be able to play in 36h in the case that you can not play.
Yep - that problem is solved, but I still have a lot of other stuff to install.

However - I will play within 24 hours from now (have time booked tomorrow evening).

So what do people think of the 'Culture' display on the progress chart? Teams CFR and Fistful of Dynamite Culture takes off about this time (right around turn 30), from 2 cpt (everybody else) to about 8 cpt.

I'm nearly positive they went for mysticism first and then went on to found a religion. That would give them 2 base culture + 5 for holy city + 1 from obelisk? = 8 total culture per turn. I'm a bit unsure about the obelisk there, though. It doesn't make much sense, but there needs to be an extra point of culture coming from somewhere.

You'll note in our game, no religions have yet been founded.

I doubt they built an Obelisk---what's the point in that, if you're going to found a religion and get your city to expand that way? But, yeah, the 5 cpt from the holy city is almost certainly the explanation.

Founding a religion would probably have been a good idea for us.

I doubt they built an Obelisk---what's the point in that, if you're going to found a religion and get your city to expand that way?

Yeah, realised that shortly after posting, and editted the post. Still, just founding a religion would not get them the culture output they seem to possess. There's a missing source somewhere...

I note that, in addition to the 2 teams with early religions, Teams Murky Waters and VQ Black apparently founded religions around 1500 BC. It's possible this is Confucianism, and a fast CS slingshot.

Team One appears to have built a relatively early Library. No one seems to have built just an early Obelisk for cultural expansion, which surprises me a bit.

Chances are the holy city would be Kyoto? If so they would still need an Obelisk to expand Osaka, which would get them to 8 cpt. If a religion, no chance they have BW, so Osaka needs 23 turns to build Obelisk; a few turns delay between FOD and CFR.

The Religion track is more conducive towards fast CS slingshot? I know you need Priesthood for Oracle, which we haven't even discussed yet; might be a discriminator between teams - early development vs early CS.

Chances are the holy city would be Kyoto? If so they would still need an Obelisk to expand Osaka, which would get them to 8 cpt.

No, the holy city is your most recently built city. It would be Osaka.

OK guys - finally got my PC back together, but realistically aren't going to play tonight. Either skip me, or wait another 24 hours.

I will be able to play tonight. I can swap with you.

Edit: This is a "got it" unless you want to step in in the next 8 hours

I will not be able to play tonight. I will only be able to play in the next 72 hours.
So ainwood, or the next one in the roster, please step in.

sorry about the previous "got it"

Change kyoto to warrior.

Turn 1:
Move warrior to other gems.

Turn 2:
Start mining gems.

Turn 3:
...zzz...

Turn 4:
Osaka warrior complete next turn.

Turn 5;
Complete warrior in osaka. What to build? A scout could be useful - I think we're on winding continents with choke points. The other warrior can circle back for defence. Hope we're not too late (relatively) for scouts, although they do defend as well as warriors against animals.

Kyoto grows, and is now stinky, but at 1 FPT, who cares?

Turn 6
See first animals - lions. There is a nice spot for a city SW of osaka - it has a river, sheep, wheat and can share the gold with Osaka.

Turn 7:
Buddhism founded in a distant land.
Beginning to think that the warrior before boat in kyoto may have been the wrong move - but then realise that next growth leads to unhappiness, so it was the correct move.

Turn 8:
Complete AH, start pottery. We have horses 4 south / 2 east of osaka.
Complete gem mining, and move to sheep.
We're +1 GPT, but increasing sci drops us to -2, and we only have 6 in the bank. Leave it where it is (for now). Osaka grows in 4 turns, and we can then work sheep for growth (3 turns on second gems whilst pasture is completed?)

Turn 9:
Start pasture.

Turn 10:
Southern edge of continent now explored.

Osaka grows in two turns to size 2, and kyoto completes warrior.
We are 6 turns from completing a scout, and 7 turns from completing pottery.

In two turns, I think with the growth, we'll be about 4 turns from completing pottery, and we should save a turn on the scout as well. Might squeeze pottery down to 3 by stepping-up research, but my quick checks show we come-up short. Pasture is a few turns off, but we should be able to complete pottery then move to work pasture on same turn. (I think).

>>The Save<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_BC2770_01.Civ4SavedGame)


Here is your Session Turn Log from 3070 BC to 2770 BC:


Turn 37, 2890 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 38, 2860 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!

I suggest that the next player plays 12 to put us back on a nice, round number!

I've attached a screenshot of the Southern areas, and the Horses, to the SE of Osaka. Looks like founding on the Plains Hills, in conjunction with founding a Religion (or building Obelisk) gets lots of good tiles into play rapidly. An extra Food and Commerce from the beginning is pretty nice.

OTOH, we probably got our Gems going faster, and definitely will get the Sheep developed quicker as well; those 2 spaces will make up the difference very rapidly.

Still no contacts with anyone but Isabella's Scouts.

Looks like some open territory directly East; our scout can see if there's anything to see in that direction while the Warrior continues his clockwise exploration.

I think I'd favor learning BW first before Pottery - location of copper and ability to pop-rush, which we'll need before building a granary, seem a bit more useful than the Worker being able to Cottage right now. We'll want Mysticism pretty quickly as well to open up the more useful spaces; perhaps before Pottery? I would like to be working the Gold as soon as possible.

OK Mailman, you're up! DaviddesJ is on deck. Perhaps a session of 14 turns, followed by a session of 15 turns will get us back to even #s (or 9 then 10).

DaviddesJ if you can play in the next 48 hours, please swap with me

Edit: lots of open space and raging barbs mean trouble!!! I suggest setting up defenses fast.

That's a good point. In part I think Isabella's scouts are designed to give us some cushion against the Barbs, or to act as a speed bump.

I've attached a screenshot of the Southern areas, and the Horses, to the SE of Osaka. Looks like founding on the Plains Hills, in conjunction with founding a Religion (or building Obelisk) gets lots of good tiles into play rapidly. An extra Food and Commerce from the beginning is pretty nice.

Yes, I think we are way behind. That's life.

I think I'd favor learning BW first before Pottery - location of copper and ability to pop-rush, which we'll need before building a granary, seem a bit more useful than the Worker being able to Cottage right now. We'll want Mysticism pretty quickly as well to open up the more useful spaces; perhaps before Pottery? I would like to be working the Gold as soon as possible.

You could have spoken up earlier when we were discussing this. My plan (as posted earlier) is to start the Granary when we learn Pottery, then research BW, switch to Slavery, and finish the Granary with a pop rush. Next, research Writing and pop rush a Library.

If we want Mysticism, and an Obelisk, that's a very different route. Note that building the Obelisk, and then waiting 15 turns for expansion, does take a fairly long time.

As MailMan says, we also have to be concerned about defense. Do we put our development plans on hold, in order to research Archery and build a couple of archers? Or do we research BW and then we have to find copper and build a settler and send it there and mine the copper and connect it up and build axemen? That's the best defense, but it is a lot of work and expense and will definitely divert us from other ideas like the Oracle.

Personally, I would rather stay with one mainland city for some time, which means we need fewer defenders. But that means we won't have resources (in all likelihood), so our defense choices are limited to warriors or archers. Archers should be adequate, for a while. Warriors may or may not be.

I'll take the next turn and plan to play in about 12 hours, so feedback needs to come in by then. I'll also try do some more analysis of options, and post it.

I just noticed we're building a Scout. This seems like a terrible waste of hammers. Our biggest problem in the near future is going to be having enough units for defense. I can't think of any reason we would rather have Scouts than Warriors.

Scouts can't even explore faster than Warriors, because they have to move more cautiously to avoid getting killed by animals or barbs; basically, they can't safely enter new territory on their second turn. And we're about done exploring, anyway---it is going to be too dangerous, and we will need all of our units at home.

I don't think a Scout is even worth 12 hammers; I'm tempted to cancel it, and throw away those we have spent so far. But this throws off our whole schedule, which was based on completing a 2nd warrior just at the time to start the Granary. :( :(

P.S. Scouts don't defend as well as warriors against animals, because they get less benefit from terrain. E.g., Bear vs Scout on forest hill is 3 to 2.75. Bear vs Warrior in woods is 3 to 3.5. (Anyway, we don't care much about defending against animals; we are just going to hunker down in our own little territory, where the animals don't come.) Plus, our Warriors get Combat 1, and Scouts don't!

On reflection, my current plan is to finish the Scout, start a Granary, bring the Warrior home, try to explore a bit with the Scout, and try to defend at home with two Warriors, for now. I don't really think 2 Warriors is enough---we will have to build some more units fairly soon---but I'm going to try to get the Granary done, first.

My apologies - I did agree to the AH, Pottery then BW path. (Loss track of that with all the other things going on :crazyeye: )

I am concerned about bringing the Gold into play. After finishing Pottery (building the Granary), then learning BW, is the best overall play to learn Mysticism and build Obelisk, or to learn Writing then build Library? I was thinking the faster cultural growth due to the Library would probably compensate for the longer research time for Writing, Writing is reduced cost due to knowing AH and Pottery,we need Writing for several Techs we eventually want, and the Library would help speed up our research.

I would agree with finishing Scout at this point. I would rather use Warriors and not research Archery, but that might not be possible or prudent.

I was thinking the faster cultural growth due to the Library would probably compensate for the longer research time for Writing, Writing is reduced cost due to knowing AH and Pottery,we need Writing for several Techs we eventually want, and the Library would help speed up our research.

I think the research time for Writing is not a problem. The bigger issue is the high cost of the Library, will make it take longer to build (and take away from building military). On the other hand, it's worth more, and expands our boundaries faster. I'm inclined to go for Library first, but, it's true that the Obelisk would let us hook up the gold somewhat sooner.

I'd say that if we're going to be relying on Slavery to any degree in Osaka, then getting the gold tile online quickly is not a very high priority. Between a chop and a pop-rush, we could get the library out fairly rapidly, I think.

I'd say that if we're going to be relying on Slavery to any degree in Osaka, then getting the gold tile online quickly is not a very high priority. Between a chop and a pop-rush, we could get the library out fairly rapidly, I think.

This was my thinking, too. The gold tile is zero food, and we're going to want to be pop-rushing to get out all of the stuff we need. (After the library, either some more military units, or a barracks, or a settler?)

Although, just connecting the gold for +1 happiness would certainly be worthwhile, even if we aren't working it. And the cultural expansion also gets us access to the oasis and floodplains, which are definitely useful.

Definitely onboard with the pop-rushing! I would think we would want to pop-rush something every 15 turns just as the unhappiness wears off. I was more interested in the additional commerce it (the Gold) can provide, but not at the cost of usable growth.

After the Library, we will need more Military before a Settler for sure. I could go either way (Barracks or Settler) depending on location of Copper, discovery of AIs, Barb Activity, etc...

we want to start whipping as soon as possible in order to get rid of the unhappiness and use the most out of slavery.

2260BC Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_BC2260_01.Civ4SavedGame

I played 17 turns, since not too much was happening so I thought it made sense to finish Bronze Working before stopping. We have two copper on our continent, but neither is especially well located.

I killed 5 barbarian warriors (4 near Osaka, 1 while exploring). If we keep fighting 95% battles, eventually we'll lose one. (I came within a single round of losing the last one.) I saved the promotions for my warriors rather than use them. We might need to take Cover, if archers show up. I really wish we had a 3rd warrior instead of that scout!!

I sent my 2nd workboat from Kyoto to explore, because everyone seemed to want that, but it was a big waste of time. Improving the crabs would have been better.

My suggestion is we should: switch to Slavery; rush Granary in Kyoto immediately; wait two more turns to get to 46/90 and then rush Granary in Osaka.

We're only 8-10 turns from Writing. Osaka can build another warrior after granary and before library, or else work on the barracks. (We probably need the warrior.)

We should not chop forests near Kyoto, as we need them for defending against barbs. Note that our unfortified warriors in forest defend as well as fortified in city (+60% in each case). Fortified in forest is best, but we also need to keep one warrior in Kyoto for flexibility (which is why we really want to have 3, or even 4).

It's ok to "pre-chop" some forests, as long as we cancel before completing the chop. I built a couple of roads, as I didn't see any point in plains cottages any time soon.

Edit: added screenshots below.

Turn 41, 2770 BC: Kyoto builds warrior, reverts to workboat
Turn 44, 2680 BC: I let a barb warrior attack my exploring warrior
Turn 44, 2680 BC: My warrior defeats barb warrior (98.8%)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: Pasture complete,