Since SGOTM10 is concluded for our team I've moved my discussion on our team history thread to there. The discussion starts on this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4396752#post4396752).

@Staff: It probably doesn't matter, but the link in the results page for SGOTM8 leads to Team Wacken rather than Durkz. Also, are there anchors in the results page so I can make the links go straight to that part of the results page? It would allow the page to be centered on the results rather than having to scroll down to them. Thanks!

@AlanH: I should have known you'd be ahead of me :).
You might want to link to that page from the Reference Thread though, and also put the list up on the GOTM webpage. Right now the only link that is there leads to the "1st visit" page, where there's another link that leads to the list of exploits for Civ3 GOTM.

@Methos: I've been in 5 SGOTMs (6 with this one), avg ~200 posts per game makes 1000 posts. Add some 200 more the regular GOTMs. No other SGs or anything such. I don't post needlessly. :p

Sure, it's in the SGOTM Reference thread, and I've added a few updates while I was in there.

I've no idea how I got to 11,700 posts :eek:

@AlanH: :thumbsup: Now it's clearly visible in the reference thread, great! Any idea when we can expect a ruling on this issue, so that we can play on? Don't want to push you or anything... :whipped: :hammer: :ar15:

@Team: I'm trying to do some calculations but I'm missing a few pieces of info. Can anyone tell me how long a forest chop takes, and how many hammers it gives? :)

I'm edging away from legislating against this tactic for this game. It's actually not trivial to define rules to cover this, and I don't want to go off half-cocked. I'll let you know Real Soon Now. Either way, I'll be notifying the rest of the teams of the effect you have identified.

I'm edging away from legislating against this tactic for this game. It's actually not trivial to define rules to cover this, and I don't want to go off half-cocked. I'll let you know Real Soon Now. Either way, I'll be notifying the rest of the teams of the effect you have identified.
We should certainly notify everyone of this tactic, I'm writing a description of this to post in the general forum that you could then point to.
I wonder though, how will you describe this to everyone? As an undesired exploit that you do not know how to legislate against? If so, you'd more or less be asking everyone not to use it anyway, and I sure wouldn't want to. Or will you consider it a "powerful tactic" that everyone should know about, to level the field, just like the other whipping bug? If that's the case, then I wouldn't hesitate to use it to its full extent, any more than I would hesitate to gain excess hammers from whipping.

I see it as just another whipping bug. Excess overflow, the ability to accumulate the overflows, and now the opportunity to remove the 50% whipping penalty on wonders.

Each whipping bug taken separately is probably not an issue. Used together, they make a powerful combination for building wonders, and probably distort the game balance.

People have been using the first two, and I'm sure they've been doing so when building wonders, so even if they didn't realise it they've been using the third. Heck, a lot of players probably don't even realise that there *is* a 50% penalty on wonder whip hammers.

I'm certainly not going to make players feel guilty about using them at this stage if I can't define a clean rule to contain them. I'll just license full use of whipping in this game, but warn that we may well have to review the rules for future GOTM competitions.

@Niklas: The forest shop shall take 5 turns and give 30 hammers when at 1 tile distance from Ozaka and 20 hammers at two tile distance. So we talk about 110 hammers we have growing out there in the wilderness. Now going to do some calculations on the agri problem. However I think that X should not be smaller than 5. Saying this I think the issue with the agriculture really can be postponed, but I will deliver concrete numbers soon.

Great, thanks AlanH for your wisdom, and your dedication to these games. :thanx: And here's to hoping that these bugs just get fixed so we don't need to have these issues at all! :beer:

Alright team, then we need to do the proper calculations for getting to CoL a lot faster.

@Methos: Now we have the actual stage set, so time to do the final test. By your count we know that we will be two turns from size 6 when we get to Priesthood. That means we probably want to build normally on the Oracle for those two turns, then whip once we hit size 6. Since research is now going to be the limiting factor, the use of citizen specialists should probably be limited since we need the bpt. Could you (or someone else) do two more tests with this setup, one with and one without the specialist. In the scenario without, we're going to grow faster than we whip, which might mean that we could rush the whole shebang from size 7 on the third whipping, instead of yet another WB.

I'm going to count the fastest way to CoL, skipping everything superfluous. When I have a number there, we know how fast we need to build, faster than that and we'll have to delay.

EDIT@MA: Great, those numbers will be really useful. In particular I want to know if the second gems could possibly have any effect on our CoL research, or if the border expansion is further away in time. No, I haven't done any of the counting on builds in Ozaka yet, so please go ahead and do that. :) I agree that we should probably keep X high, that graph of the Geezers scares me a bit...

So here ist the scenario for X = 5. I think we are safe to go for priesthood asap.

135563

Coming back to the City 3 & 4 conquest or build issue. As I said I also didn't look at it as a real possibility as Niklas has stated, too. And concerning the reasons I agree with Niklas. However talking of optimising I think, we would in any case be wandering around with units, mainly archers I think. Finding a warrior guarded barb camp, that riots for 3 turns and conquering it as city 3 or 4 at least saves ~24 commerce. If we find one good camp - why not. Just let's keep the eyes open.

I shall add that Ozaka will take 36 turns to grow while working the gems, gold and oasis. Here is the second half of the datasheet, showing that for X=5, the 2. gems will help from turn 50 after 2800BC, the CoL research turn no 13!

BTW, how do you put the spoiler tags around images?

Edit: Daring to build only 4 archers prior to the obelisk would save us 7 turns, so the 2.gems would help from CoL turn 6 onward. - If we can defend them with 4 archers.....
Edit 2: @Niklas concerning your post 217: I think Col takes 783 beakers. We have no prereqs.

@MA: Great, now we know when we can start taking the outer ring into account. :goodjob:

Here are some new calculations for when we can expect to get the techs we want, based on a direct beeline for CoL and MA's new numbers:

Tech costs:
Mysticism 111
Meditation 177
Priesthood 133
Writing 268
Code of Laws 783 (thanks)

Towns growing:
Turn 6: Smurkyotos 5 => avg bpt is 18
Turn 8: Ozaka 3, working Gold => avg bpt is 24
Turn 20: Smurkyotos whipped to 4, and uses citizen specialist => avg bpt is 20
Turn 44: Ozaka 4, working 2nd oasis. => avg bpt is 21
Turn 50: Mine on 2nd gems complete => avg bpt is 26

Intended research path (prerequisite bonus %):
First branch: Mysticism (0%) -> Meditation (20%) -> Priesthood (20%)
Second branch: Writing (20%) -> CoL (40%)

Since we we go with a constant 3 tiles worked (cap 4, one specialist) we'd only be doing 20 bpt raw from turn 20. The new numbers from that point will then be:


Turn bpt mbpt tech col/tot
19 24 30 Pri 155/133 (22 overflow, count 15)
20 20 24 Wri 39/268

21 20 24 Wri 63/268
22 20 24 Wri 87/268
23 20 24 Wri 111/268
24 20 24 Wri 135/268
25 20 24 Wri 159/268
26 20 24 Wri 183/268
27 20 24 Wri 207/268
28 20 24 Wri 231/268
29 20 24 Wri 255/268
30 20 24 Wri 279/268 (11 overflow, count 5)
31 20 28 CoL 33/783
...
43 20 28 CoL 369/783
44 21 29 CoL 398/783
...
49 21 29 CoL 543/783
50 26 38 CoL 581/783
...
56 26 38 CoL 809/783


Turn 56 means 39 turns after Priesthood. The wonder build would be a lot faster then, so I suspect that the truth lies somewhere in between, but we would need those extra tests. We can slow down the wonder and speed up the research by not using that specialist all the time.

I should note that after CoL is completed, Agriculture will take 5 turns, so we can farm from somewhere like turn 60, quite some time after the border expansion in Ozaka (turn 43 by MA's count). So not having Agriculture early is going to be felt, but certainly the benefits of CS will be much greater!

There's also one thing that isn't included in any of my calculations, namely the single turn of Anarchy. I would suggest we do it right after BW comes in, the earlier we do it the less beakers we lose on that turn. (I'm still assuming that you grow during Anarchy like you do in Civ3, no one has disputed this claim so it must be true :p)

EDIT: The numbers are not verified, and are very rough at some points (like overflow calculation). MA, when you play please keep posting the research numbers each turn, and if it ever goes way off from my calculations then come back here and let me have another look.

EDIT2: Time to get to bed again. This will probably be the last late night analysis from me in a while, I have a deadline approaching fast that I should be working towards as I write :sad:. But after this early MMing galore, the need for analyses should anyway diminish.

Good night Niklas! Will be playing tomorrow in the afternoon or evening.

Parameters: Size 5 with 36/45 33/45 :food:. Two improved sea tiles with the Oracle in the queue. Will use no citizen specialist. Since I can’t accurately predict bpt I’ll instead state cpt.

Noticed a previous mistake I had made in my initial calculations of growth in post #249. I had added the food bonus from the improved fish the turn the WB was complete, rather than the next turn. The calculations below are corrected.

The turn #’s should agree with Niklas’s.

135591 135592

Note that we need to figure out something to build on turns 17 & 18. It cannot be a WB and I'm unsure what else to build. Since this was a test I just left it empty.

Unless I’ve made a mistake somewhere it appears the Oracle will complete the same turn we finish CoL. Now that’s timing! Now let’s just hope I did my figuring correctly. :D

Looks good Methos! :goodjob:
I believe it's almost correct, but I also think that the errors cancel each other ;).
The first is the same error that I have, not accounting for the 1 turn of Anarchy. This would push back the completion of the WB by one turn, to be available on turn 17.
The second is that the WB will indeed improve the second fish on the same turn it is completed, so why shouldn't you count it on that same turn? That means that the amount of food will still be correct throughout, and the later completion of the WB will only spill over into the ?? turns. At least that's how I understand it, it could well be me that's wrong.

EDIT: No, that's not quite true at all, since the Anarchy will push back Priesthood one turn and thus the availability of the Oracle. But that will cost us 2 hammers for the first turn, which can be recovered by using a specialist for two turns later on.

Speaking of the ?? turns, if we have nothing better to build then Stonehenge comes to mind. Then at least we'll get those (2) hammers converted to gp when someone else finishes it. :lol:

Methos' last sentence is almost correct, but CoL will finish in 56 only if we do use a citizen specialist. If we do not, then it can be sped up to (handwaving here) 54, but the Anarchy will bring that back to 55. But in the end, after we grow to size 7, we can work as many specialists that we can support, the crucial point then is to get to 159 hammers. Using one specialist from turn 52 would speed that up by one turn (152, 155, 158, 162 on turn 55), and if we can support two we speed it up by two turns (152, 156, 160 on turn 54). Since we'll probably see CoL on turn 55, one specialist should be fine. EDIT: Not quite true either since we're 2 hammers short, but with one specialist we should still get it on the same turn.

Btw, completing the Oracle on the same turn as we get CoL works fine, research is computed first so we will first get CoL, then finish the Oracle and be able to choose CS. I'm sure you knew, but I didn't, had to test it. ;)

My final note is that this is all still pretty insecure, Methos' numbers are of course correct since there's no uncertainty, but for my research numbers there are a number of things that could go not quite as planned. Overflow calculated differently, rounding errors for prerequisite bonuses, known-civs-with-tech-modifier rounded up (Izzy knows Mysticism, we get a 3% bonus, at 16 bpt that means 16+1 x 1.03 = 17.51 ...), etc. We (meaning dojoboy) need to be light on the hand when we near completion. OTOH, after (and during) MA's turnset we'll get more actual numbers to work with, and the image will be much clearer.

Wow! And Civ4 was supposed to do away with micromanagement?

The second is that the WB will indeed improve the second fish on the same turn it is completed, so why shouldn't you count it on that same turn?

Here's the question, if you have 45/45 :hammers:'s on turn X does it finish the build during that turn, or after you press the 'End Turn'? On my calculations would the WB be available to us to move and use on turn 18 or turn 19 turn 16 or turn 17?

I noticed the anarchy mistake as I was checking our turn #'s, but figured it wouldn't matter since we both forgot it. Only, growth still happens (I believe) so it does matter.

Edit: Whoops, I was looking at Excel's row #'s, rather than turn #'s. Corrected.

@AlanH: Oh yeah? Nah... :p Well, in truth it does do away with much of the MMing, because of overflows. But for race conditions, when you want optimize two things at the same time, there's no way you can get away from it.

@Methos: The way I read your numbers, the Hammers column represents what you have at the beginning of your turn, after the :hammers:/t from last turn was added. That means that if it says 45/45 :hammers:, the build will have completed on the IBT leading to this turn, and the WB will be available for use on this turn. That means turn 16 for the WB.

Btw, great idea to use the :hammers: symbol, I hadn't thought of that. Much easier to convey your meaning that saying +1P, +22 hpp, 10 hpt or the like. :)

Hi! I am playing now.

@Niklas: No terribly you don't grow in anarchy. Also you don't chop in anarchy, even if the animations indicate so. Sorry:sad: ! We just lose a turn by anarchy in every means. But better earlier than later for losing less :hammers: :)

Hi! I am playing now.

Woohoo! Seems like I've spent the majority of the weekend sitting in front of the computer. :blush:

@Niklas: No terribly you don't grow in anarchy. Also you don't chop in anarchy, even if the animations indicate so. Sorry:sad: ! We just lose a turn by anarchy in every means. But better earlier than later for losing less :hammers: :)

This makes things easier to calculate though.

Providing a mid term report for you to discuss the events of teh past 300 years. Here it comes

Turn 0 (2800 BC) Research: Bronze Working [243/268]
Warrior is promoted to Woodsman

Turn 1 (2770 BC) Research: Bronze Working [264/268]

The warrior kills the panther and heals for 4 turns, since he is down to 1.2/2. It was a very short joy to see the missing of religions here. Hinduism is founded – and not by the Spanish. But at least it is not Buddhism.

Turn 2 (2740 BC) Research: Bronze Working/Mysticism [ 13/111] 7 overflow

Revolt immediately to Slavery. Bears are showing up in the west going after one of Isabellas scouts. We are in anarchy, so nothing else has happened.

Turn 3 (2710 BC) Reserch: Mysticism [ 13/111]

Anarchy is over.

Turn 4 (2680 BC) Research: Mysticism [ 31/111]

Grrrrr. Now also Buddhism is founded and again Asabella is not involved!??? Now we have to be fast with the CS Slingshot. We were anyway, but now it really matters. Now we have a competitor to the Oracle out there. Let’s hope he throws some other tech in between now tzhat he has a religion founded.

Turn 5 (2650 BC) Research: Mysticism [ 47/111] science slider : 70%
Turn 6 (2620 BC) Research: Mysticism [ 65/111] science slider : 60%

The warrior is fully healed and goes exploring NW.

Turn 7 (2590 BC) Research: Mysticism [ 81/111] science slider : 70%

Smurky grows to size 5. Working one further sea tile, so we make 13 beakers at 70% now, 19 overall commerce in Smurky.

The first forest is chopped and we have archer no. 2. with 10 hammers overflow.

Turn 8 (2560 BC) Research: Mysticism [101/111] science slider : 60%
We discoer Mysticism! But the important thing of this move was that the first barb showed up! Now the great warring starts. He comes from the north. To protect our improvements, I decided to meet him in the forests north of Ozaka.

135628

Turn 9 (2530 BC) Research: Meditation [ 10/178] science slider : 70%

Two additional warriors turning up from the east. The first warrior attacks or archer in the woods. No problem for us. We didn’t lose a single strength point. Archer stays at 3/3. I am not sure how to counter south eastern warrior. But I have to do something. Decide to protect the gems and move archer 2 on the gem tile, since the other archer is at full strength. But now I feel a little nervous!
Ozaka grows to size 3 working the gold.
The warrior finds Isabellas borders in the north:

135629

Turn 10 (2500 BC) Research: Meditation [ 36/178] science slider : 70%

Warrior attacks me and hurts me hard, but my archer survives, but heavyly injured this time.
NE warrior threatens Ozaka, but the archer protects the chopping worker in the north wood. I have 92.7% win propability, so I attack and kill the warrior also with heavy losses. My dear, I need reinforcements!!!

First time to drop by, now that SGOTM 10 is done.

:eek: 14 pages in 14 days!

:goodjob: ( and good spam! )


(Gotta find a way to get a new PC that has the horsepower to run 'Fourth Generation Firaxis-Meyer Based Global Simulation Modeling and Decision-Making Analysis'. )

Hmm, I assume you have full control over the military situation? You always have the last resort, whipping an archer in Ozaka, no MMing in the world is worth losing it. EDIT: By your numbers it seems you'll get the next archer on turn 12 and after that on turn 15 (compensating for Anarchy). So those reinforcements are coming, if you can only hold out that long. :)

On the research, overflow on the first seems to have been 13, why do you state 7? In any case, that put us 3 beakers ahead of my prediction. And for some reason, at the second overflow point that puts us 5 beakers ahead for some reason. So far so good.
But then between 9 and 10 we only seem to generate 26 beakers, when the prediction was 30. Are we not making 24 bpt raw?

On the founding of the religions, I don't think that matters all that much, we were expecting it. If we don't get the slingshot, we'll have gotten CoL anyway, and we'll get a treasury boost from the Oracle.

EDIT: Looking over my numbers, I realize I've made a serious mistake. We'll get only 20% towards CoL, not 40%, so the research time will be roughly 7/6 times longer than expected. I will have to recalculate some after MA's turnset then. :(

In hindsight it would have been better to wait with the Anarchy until we needed the whip. If nothing happens during Anarchy, i.e. not even growth, then it matters absolutely nothing at all when you revolt. A sequence of X turns spread out over X+1 turns instead, after those X+1 turns you will have generated the exact same amount of everything regardless of which of those turns was a blank.

The only difference will be that if you revolt later, more units can be completed before the Anarchy. So as a general rule of thumb, never revolt until you need it. Good to know for the future, and lets hope that our archers will win the day despite being one turn late. ;)

Here comes the second half. I must say I never had to play to more detailed plans. So thank you very much guys. However what really was the main topic of the turnset was the barb warfare. My dear, lots and lots and lots of warriors coming from all sides. But the worst moment, when the first barb archer will come has not yet happened. I hope we have some more archers on the surrounding hills by then. But lets look over the past 10 turns:

Turn 11 (2470 BC) Research: Meditation [ 66/178] science slider : 60%
Two further warriors turn up from the east. Must be a camp there or so and I don’t have any unit capable to fight. This game seems to be over now. Also Gibbon (who was that?) calls us 'Smurkz the forgotten' concerning wealth. Yes, we are always close to bankrupt. There is one archer to finish in one so Ozaka seems sure – but the improvements are not…..
Our northern warrior heads back to help in survival. Now that Ozaka has grown I get +6hpt inside and can additionally let the slider be at 70% permanently.

Turn 12 (2440 BC) Research: Meditation [ 96/178] science slider : 70%
Northern warrior meets barbs being in a jungle.
The 3rd archer finishes. Miraculously one barb moves away???? The other one heads directly to Ozaka.
Two warriors march to one tile distance of Ozaka. 2nd forest chopped. So next and 4th archer is due next turn.

Turn 13 (2410 BC) Research: Meditation [ 124/178] science slider : 70%
Two barb warriors destroyed at the defences of Ozaka. Well these last 5 turns were a military bottleneck. Hope that was the last time we were close to annihilation (at least in the east) Promote victorious archer to ‘hill defender’. One warrior is at the end stationed on the oasis, we work a forest instead, so we make 2 bpt less. Put one archer on the gold hill to defend against a southern barb warrior.
Northern warrior kills barb without losses in defence and covers the coastal hill in the north for fog busting and getting the north safe against barb attacks. Look at one of the northern pics for map info. 4th archer is build. The worker roads the Ozaka 1N tile, where he just chopped the forest.

Turn 14 (2380 BC) Research: Meditation [ 154/178] science slider : 70%
A southern barb warrior killed while defending without losses.

Turn 15 (2350 BC) Research: Meditation [ 184/178] science slider : 70%
Aaahm. Meditation brings wisdom, lack of meditation means ignorance. Know well what leads you forward and what holds you back.

Turn 16 (2320 BC) Research: Priesthood [ 34/133] science slider : 70%
Archer kills another warrior in the east in attack. This time our losses are very limited (1.6/2), so I decide to march this one out to reach the eastern hill for coverage. Worker finishes road. Since the north is covered by our warrior, he roads the 2. gems tile.

Turn 17 (2290 BC) Research: Priesthood [ 64/133] science slider : 70%
The Spanish now have a city on the NW cost. So the warrior can go east to reach another hill for fog busting. Maybe the one where he killed the panther in the beginning.

135639

WB#2 finishes in Smurky and goes catching some fish. Production set to Stonehenge. A lot of barb warfare. I tried to reach the southern hill with an archer, but got surrounded by more barbs, so that after the first victory I had to retreat. Killed the 2 remaining of 3 southern barbs at the gates of Ozaka in turn 19.

Turn 18 (2260 BC) Research: Priesthood [ 94/133] science slider : 70%
Eastern archer healed, but a barb warrior moves on the hill in the east. I march the archer in the wood for defence. The worker finishes the road on the second gems and goes to the eastern forest for another chop.

Turn 19 (2230 BC) Research: Priesthood [ 124/133] science slider : 70%
Barb warrior in the east attacks and dies (this stupid guy – against an archer in a wood and across a river!) Our archer reaches the eastern hill. Yeah – first outside position claimed.

Turn 20 (2200 BC) Research: Priesthood [ 133/133] +21 overflow
We finish Priesthood and switch to Writing.
We start a WB in Smurky with the Oracle in the queue. We whip the WB and Smurky drops to size 4. But the Oracle has now 43 hammers more in store thanks to Niklas and Methos.

Turn 21 (2170 BC) Research: Writing [ 43/268]???? This number is a riddle to me. We were constantly working the tiles and were at 70%

EDIT: Not any more a riddle: At size 4 Smurky makes 11bpt, so we are at 22bpt at 70% science. + the 21 overflow exactly gives 43 beakers

This turn I played additionally cause I wanted to hand over a military stable position. We again have some barbs around. A barb warrior in the west dies attacking our western archer. Also another southern barb warrior has the same fate. We are realtively safe again. The WB of Smurky goes catching some crabs.
I attach one screen for the complete military problem. A detailed war descrition in pictures will be too much for this turnset. Here it is:

135638

It was a very hard fight. But at least we killed 14 warriors, but without a single unit loss so far. Mainly cause I generally defended on hills and in forests and thed barb warriors always were stupid enough to attack me in my good postions. Only from Ozaka to the plains in the east I also attacked. There I had a win chance of 92.7%. That seemed acceptable to me. 4 warriors died that way.

And finally it's time for dotmapping. Here is my first try to start the discussion:

135640

Time to hand over. Here is the save.

Nice job MA.

The overflow is puzzling. Could it have something to do with the prerequisite bonus? I'm on board with the MM discussions & tests you guys have done. However, I'm having a tough time grasping the prerequisite bonus.

Hi McLMan, I have edited the post above concerning this topic. It was just the size decrease of Smurky due to the whipping.

Well played! Let's hope we can keep the barbs at bay.

My new computer is up and running, and I can load the save :).

It is a bit premature, but here are some ideas for future settlements:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz2_BC2170_dotmap.jpg

I think we'll want to grab the copper soon, before Spain gets there. The naval base will get it on expansion, and will have reasonable production (stone + copper, and fish for food). The commercial centre can spam cottages on the floodplains and grasslands. The military town has some hills, as well as wheat+sheep for food.

I am not sure about the best order - maybe the commercial town first, as it has a lot of forests that can be chopped to produce an obelisk and/or settler quickly. Also, it would be nice to have pottery and know where iron is before we settle, and this puts settlement back by about 50-60 turns it seems. (But do we want to wait that long?)

Of course we do need IW to build Samurai anyway. And it looks like we'll need Astro as well, unless that eastern mountain range (or Spain) is blocking the other civs. To find out more, maybe our warrior can explore a bit?

I must say you played very well, MA! Killing 14 warriors, no archers lost, and not a single time did any barbie disrupt our citizens. Very well played indeed! :goodjob:

Regarding the research numbers, I am once again at a loss. The number 43 is not correct, we're doing 22 :beakers:/t alright but that's the raw number, not the actual number. At the very least we'll have the +1 factor, and then the prerequisite bonus should push us up to 28 :beakers:/t (or possibly 27 if the flooring is still in place, the actual number is 27.6, but earlier numbers indicate this is not the case). I this is true, which I think it is, this means that we only got 15 overflow, when it should have been 21. I guess I was wise in overcompensating for this glitch in my calculations, but I would sure like to know how to count it for real. If the 1.61 fix was to remove any prerequisite bonus from the overflow, then they would re-introduce MMing to this equation, since we would want to minimize any overflow.

@zyxy: Welcome back to CIV land! Good to have you on board again, joining the discussions. :)

I don't have time to look too deeply into anything right now. I checked the dotmaps, at first glance I would prefer zyxy's Commercial and Military sites, but MA's Naval site. I don't have any strong arguments though. And I think perhaps when to settle is a more important issue than where in this rather odd situation.

Research after CoL and (hopefully) CS should probably be Agri->Pot->AH->IW. Possibly with AH before Pot, depending on when we settle our next town.

I'll try to get some more time tomorrow to look at this.

Roster:
Methos
Niklas
Marc Aurel - Just Played
dojoboy - UP!
McLMan - On Deck!
zyxy - Warming up


@dojoboy: Feeling ready to roll? Have you managed to follow all our crazy MMing discussions? If not, don't hesitate to ask. :)

Score graph (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) is still looking fine, though CFR and F.o.Dynamite has soared ahead. I wonder if they went for an early settler? And if so, how they handle the barbies? Or perhaps they just emphasized early growth with Agri and AH. We'll just have to see after the game, eh? ;) Us is that gray-green graph sticking up in third place, despite our recent whip-dip.

No, Niklas - sorry but this was too obvious. Look at the culture graph!! CFR and FoD must have just started with mysticism and were so lucky to found a religion. Let me guess that was buddhism, since they were intentionally heading at the CS Slingshot and stumbled over being the first at meditation. Lucky shot, if you don't start with mysticism.

Hi zyxy, great to hear you are ready to embark on this very detailed discussion. Can only improve this already very good game. And your commercial center is really better thanm mine:goodjob:

Ah, but of course, good spot MA! :thumbsup:
In my defense, I still don't have a clue as to what things you do in this game that adds to your score. Is the score increase of these two teams due to the founding of the religion itself, or is it a biproduct from the subsequent border expansions?

EDIT: I must say it's really brave to go for the slingshot without archers first. They must have some serious problems with barbies, but they've made it past our point at least. Impressive.

EDIT2: The Geezers are picking up again, I really wonder what that dip was all about. :hmm:

EDIT3: The Power graph indicates that we have the largest military of all teams at this point. At least our test games has lead us to be well prepared. Good job team! :goodjob:

Does anyone know of a link to where scoring is explained? Not that we really need it for this game, but it would be nice to know anyway. :)

Another thing - back to the tech calcs. How exactly do you get to the prereqs you have calculated? We have only 1 of 3 for Writing. Pottery and AH are still missing. So, why should this be so high? What is my mistake? I thought we get the full factor only, if we have all prereqs.

EDIT: I 'think' it is the border expansion that makes the high score. BUt that might not be all. Have to check myself.

The prerequisite bonus is 20% if you fulfill the minimum requirements. This means that except for the techs on the first tier, you can never have less than 20% bonus. For each additional prerequisite you have, i.e. of the optional ones, add another 20%. For writing we are fulfilling the minimum requirement in that we have one of Priesthood/Pottery/AH. If we had gone for Pottery first, we would have researched Writing at 40% bonus, which my first calculations show. If we had all three it would have been 60%.

This is also where my error lies. The minimum requirement of CoL is not just Writing, it's Writing and one of Priesthood/Currency. I was calculating Priesthood as an optional, and thus arrived at the number 40%, when it should have been only 20%.

Here's (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146163) the thread that shows how it all works, though it's pre-1.61. (It's the second from the left in my CFC powerbar ;))

Yeah, now it becomes more clear. The religion gives you +5 cpt. That means the border expansion from 2 to 3, what is done in 150cp on Epic speed is relatively fast done. It takes only 30 turns in the 2. city, what normally (or always?) is chosen for the holy city, if you have two of them. At border level 3 they might have 38 land points under control, whereas we have only 10 tiles controled. The water tiles do not count! We have 21 points from our ten tiles. Applying the same factor to the 39 tiles (38 + the capital island) of the religion founders gives 82 land points. They can already work the second gems! If they can manage to survive the barbs they got us. But even if I had known, I wouldn't have dared to fight without archers. So I am not unhappy with the situation. They must have spread warriors all over the land.

I went ahead and created our history thread in the Civ4 Stories Forums. You can see the thread from the link in my signature. Please continue sending me feedback (or your own statements) that you would like to see, or not see, in our history. Post there if you like.

Reading up now. I'll d/l save tomorrow, as I'm on my mac atm, and review it. I'll prepare questions for everyone before I begin play.

Excellent job MA!! Things are looking great so far! I’m guessing by the end of this game (possibly by the end of the ancient era) you’ll have the tech research modifiers down Niklas. :D

Remember to pay close attention to the +1 :mad: modifier in Smurky. If we whip before that goes away we’ll gain an additional +1 :mad: (two total), and it’ll increase it by 15 turns. We definitely don’t want that.

The archer that is 1 S of the gold should move down to MA’s hill two tiles away (S-SW), as he’ll overlap with the Ozaka’s view and the archer on the desert hill tile if he stays where he's at right now. I’m not sure I agree with the fog buster on the tile as indicated by MA near the stone. There’s so many forests around it it’ll block all but the area NW of it and the coast.

Are we going to use our northern warrior to continue to scout, or is he going to be a fog buster on the hill tile just north of him?

Hi Team Smukz

I've had feedback from TPTB on your avatars. I'm afraid they are not allowed to contain anything in the style of an official CFC icon. They should also not contain anything that is exclusive to a specific group of posters. Please can you all amend them accordingly?

Hi Team Smukz

I've had feedback from TPTB on your avatars. I'm afraid they are not allowed to contain anything in the style of an official CFC icon. They should also not contain anything that is exclusive to a specific group of posters. Please can you all amend them accordingly?

Hi AlanH,

thanks for the info. :) But what does it actually mean?:confused:
I can understand, that you want nobody to get the wrong idea, that we are something official of CFC. OK! Does that affect written text in avatars in general or only the colours or style or font or ...? What must the 'SGOTM SMURKZ' text look like to match this requirement? NO boxes around? Not at the bottom? No horizontal text?
The latter statement I completely do not understand. (exclusive to a specific group of posters?) We can nobody hinder to write SGOTM SMURKZ in his avatar and don't want to do so. (Me at least) But why should anybody want to do so? If he wants to play in team Smurkz, he has in any case to ask you, since you would not accept his submissions otherwise. So team Smurkz is like any other SGOTM team an exclusive group of posters, who have the right to submit a save for team Smurkz.
If anybody outside this group wants to make some propaganda, writing something like 'SGOTM MURKS' it just profits our fame. So why not.
In general I like to understand, whether we are allowed to write 'SGOTM SMURKZ' somehow in the avatar and the grade of difference that is required that everybody can distinguish it from a CFC official sign. ATM I think, since my text is on a green background it seems to me enough to not make anybody think I am an official of CFC.

BTW, what does TPTB stand for?

Does that affect written text in avatars in general or only the colours or style or font or ...? What must the 'SGOTM SMURKZ' text look like to match this requirement? NO boxes around? Not at the bottom? No horizontal text?

BTW, what does TPTB stand for?
I think what he means is no horizontal text in a box at the bottom. I recall someone else, I don't remember who, had done something similar, so that at first glance they looked 'CFC Official', even though they weren't.

Which I think is AlanH's main concern.

TPTB = The Powers That Be

Ok! Then I propose this one with the letters provided by Mistfit. Is this one ok?

Hi Team Smukz

I've had feedback from TPTB on your avatars. I'm afraid they are not allowed to contain anything in the style of an official CFC icon. They should also not contain anything that is exclusive to a specific group of posters. Please can you all amend them accordingly?

So, no one in our group may have an avatar, like mine, that has Smurkz written in it? I could have one, but no one else? Or, I can't have one, because it recognizes a specific group of members? Asking before I rant. ;)

The offical CFC stuff, fair enough, I was wondering what took TPTB so long. ;)

But I'm also a bit confused by the "not contain anything that is exclusive to a specific group of posters". If I read this by the letter, it means we cannot have anything in our avatars whatsoever that shows any allegiance to our team. No text, no small greenish figure, nothing. If that is the rule, then we should of course follow it. But it seems a bit weird, so I wonder if I am perhaps interpreting it wrong?

I looked through the FAQ for a mention of this but my search turned up zip.

I've had feedback from TPTB on your avatars. I'm afraid they are not allowed to contain anything in the style of an official CFC icon.

I was wondering about this, and believe I stated as such when we originally discussed it. No problem, it’ll be removed. I’m curious, can we still use the SGOTM Smurkz CFC-like image for official Team Smurkz posts (such as spoilers)? Or when Niklas (Team Leader) asks a question relating specifically to our team?

They should also not contain anything that is exclusive to a specific group of posters.

Assuming this is due to creating cliques within the forums. I’m curious, as dojoboy asked, what exactly isn’t allowed, and what is? It appears to me we should be allowed in some way to show our team spirit.

Edit: What about the words located below our username (in my instance Deity), can we state Team Smurkz there, or is that also against the rules?

Edit: What about the words located below our username (in my instance Deity), can we state Team Smurkz there, or is that also against the rules?
I never got around to asking Mistfit to tweak my avatar, mainly 'cos I like it as it is. I felt that adding the bottom name bar would have scrunched up(compressed messily) the look of the badge, etc.

So I put 'Team Smurkz since SGOTM 9' in that title bar Methos is talking about. The title can be 26 characters long and mine is that exactly.

EDIT:
Then I changed that line in User CP -> Profiles to read 'Team Smurkz @ C3 SGOTM 09'.

As to my turn-set:

I've checked out the barb map and have a good understanding of where we're being threatend. Do we have time to build another archer to allow the warrior to continue scouting?

As to the dot maps, I like the green dot to Ozaka's northeast because it will provide copper once the borders expand. But, the military settlement is obviously important. Are we near building a settler yet?

I'll MM Smurkyotos' +1 :mad: and make sure he's gone before whipping.

More shortly, need to go peek at the save again.

Do we have time to build another archer to allow the warrior to continue scouting?

If I recall correctly MA had the queue already set up for Ozaka. I believe it was Obelisk>Archer>Barracks.

I'll MM Smurkyotos' +1 :mad: and make sure he's gone before whipping.

I may be interrupting your statement incorrectly, but you don't have to MM due to the +1 :mad:. You just need to wait until after the +1 :mad: from whipping goes away before doing the whip a WB and letting the overflow hammers add to the Oracle. If you mouse over the X :) Y :mad: you'll see where it says +1 :mad: "We remember the cruel things you did to us", or something close to that.

TPTB means "The Powers That Be". It's very common shorthand on the Internet. Sorry if it confused you.

I was wondering about this, and believe I stated as such when we originally discussed it.I know. That's why I took up the question.

No problem, it’ll be removed. I’m curious, can we still use the SGOTM Smurkz CFC-like image for official Team Smurkz posts (such as spoilers)? Or when Niklas (Team Leader) asks a question relating specifically to our team?You can't have different avatars for different posts, of course. There's no problem with including a Team Smurkz logo in your sig, or in specific posts, as long as it doesn't look like an official CFC badge.

Assuming this is due to creating cliques within the forums. I’m curious, as dojoboy asked, what exactly isn’t allowed, and what is? It appears to me we should be allowed in some way to show our team spirit.

Signatures are the most appropriate place to display group memberships.


Edit: What about the words located below our username (in my instance Deity), can we state Team Smurkz there, or is that also against the rules?I don't see why not, if you feel that's your most significant identifying feature.

To those who ask about alternative formats, Dojo's looks OK to me, as the letters are integrated into the design, and it in no way mimics the CFC badges. Marc Aurel's *does* mimic the CFC badge style and could be mistaken for one. The fact that this shade of green doesn't appear currently in CFC badges doesn't cut it. Other posters may not know the full range of colors used in badges. It's shape and structure are sufficient to confuse.

Moderator Tags should never be edited or removed, nor should they try to be emulated or copied.
It seems reasonable to assume this ruling for tags extends to official badges now that they exist.

However, I'm just the messenger. If you guys try to push the boundaries on this don't be surprised if other moderators get upset with you. FYI, while I was waiting for a ruling from Thunderfall, the issue was picked up by another mod, having seen your avatars outside of this forum.

Hi dojoboy,

concerning your turnset some remarks from the finish of my turnset. The most important thing is to exactly carry out the WB whip in Smurky. When "whipping unhappiness" is done (in 15 turns) then you have to put a WB in the front position of the build queue and have the Oracle with the already invested hammers behind that. Just whip it from scratch. No hammers already invested are allowed. Otherwise the procedure would not work, since whipping only costs 2 pop at the very first possibility. Even if you have invested only 2 hammers in the WB you can whip only the WB and no 43 overflow hammers are invested in the Oracle as Methos and Niklas have elaborated.

The rest is warfare and I saw, that 5 archers are not enough any more since I now wanted to expand our region. So archer #6 is in the queue after the obelisk. The chopping worker shall help to finish the obelisk early on. The barracks after that are only in the queue cause we already have invested hammers in it and don’t want to lose them. So keep it always at the end of the queue until you decide you want that barracks. I am not totally decided on what to do after archer #6. Let’s have a discussion on that. I think archer #7 might be useful or settler #1. We can whip now and have a relative stable military control when we have reached some hills out in the wilderness with the archers. So we can plan on founding 2 further cities and palace jump as proposed by McLMan and Niklas. That however will be after your turnset, so we have time to discuss. The only thing important now is that you do not settle with settler #1, but wait until settler #2 is finished.
The warfare is simply best when digging in on hills and promote to hill defender when available. I would not attack with the archers unless you attack a warrior in the open with no defensive boni. But the warfare is up to you. Have an eye on the tiles you are working when barbs have come close to Ozaka. Just check, whether you always work oasis gems and gold. At the end of your turnset, Ozaka shall expand. Make sure you have cleaned the north of barbs then, so that you can immediately start on mining the 2. gems.
Keep the research always as high as possible and keep track of the actual research points each move you make for Niklas calculations, so that we can time the CoL and Oracle finish for the slingshot.
That’s it so far. Any questions from your side?

Thanks for the clarification. This is a good compromise, I think. I didn't ever wanted to be mistaken for a moderator. No time for these duties. However I really appreciate that you have it.:goodjob:
However I can understand that the boxes style alone might be enough for others to be confused about my CFC status. But I like the word smurkz and the greenish mascot included in the design. If dojoboys is ok, I just take these letters. Now ok?

Looks OK to me :)

AlanH: Thanks for the clarification. I have no problem with not mimicking the moderator tags, as noted I was surprised you didn't tell us off right away. What I was worried about was that your initial comments led me to believe that the rules were even stricter than that, and I couldn't quite see how or why. By your clarifications I see there was no problem, so case closed. :)

... just give me a minute to switch my avatar now that I'm home... ;)

Alright, some questions or points for discussion.

1. It takes 14 turns before the whip effect wears off in Smurkyotos (I think). Should WB be whipped immediately? And should this WB go crabcatching, or can it scout around? Sorry, I didn't read the MM discussions in ful detail.

2. Ozaka queue. After the Obelisk, we can either finish the rax (20 shields in it), train another Archer, or train a settler. I think we should train archers until we're reasonably safe (maybe 1 or 2?), but I don't want to hold off on settlers for too long. The rax is of lower priority, too bad about the invested shields.
Btw, we now have 2 archers with city garrison and 3 with hill defense. I think we have enough of the first category for now. Perhaps we can get a few with extra drills, they are more versatile.

3. Settling. Two towns at once, or one at the time? Two at once will shorten the period of high upkeep, but also delay our development. Furthermore, getting 300 shields out of Ozaka for 2 settlers is going to take painfully long, it is only doing 6 hpt, and is growing awfully slow. Also, our worker at Ozaka can only chop, build a normal mine and a gems mine (after expansion). The normal mine will probably not be used for a long time and hence is no priority. So he's probably free to go elsewhere in 30 turns or so, and it would be nice if "elsewhere" would be another city (where he could chop a new settler in around 20 turns).

Should WB be whipped immediately? And should this WB go crabcatching, or can it scout around? Sorry, I didn't read the MM discussions in ful detail.

As soon as the +1 :mad: goes away Smurky needs to immediately whip a WB for the overflow for the Oracle. Due to MM’ing we want all WB’s to immediately improve the coastal resource tiles. Until all four tiles are improved we can not use a WB to explore.

Settling. Two towns at once, or one at the time?

I believe the discussion was two towns at once followed ASAP by whipping the palace in Ozaka. Does anyone know, does the palace earn 22 :hammers:/p or 44 :hammers:/p when whipped?

@AlanH: Can I use an avatar with the title Smurkz in it, even though MA and dojoboy have the name Smurkz in theirs? Or is this considered “exclusive to a specific group of posters”?

I'm following this, don't worry. Unfortunately, I'm back to school now and have a new parent orientation tonight at 6 pm. So, I'll likely play ten turns and post late tonight for comment, then finish tomorrow.

@AlanH: Can I use an avatar with the title Smurkz in it, even though MA and dojoboy have the name Smurkz in theirs? Or is this considered “exclusive to a specific group of posters”?
I can see no possible reason why not. You have no powers to limit its use even if you wanted to, so I can't see it as any more exclusive than declaring your SG team memberships in your sig ... or flying a national flag.

2. Ozaka queue. After the Obelisk, we can either finish the rax (20 shields in it), train another Archer, or train a settler. I think we should train archers until we're reasonably safe (maybe 1 or 2?), but I don't want to hold off on settlers for too long. The rax is of lower priority, too bad about the invested shields.
Btw, we now have 2 archers with city garrison and 3 with hill defense. I think we have enough of the first category for now. Perhaps we can get a few with extra drills, they are more versatile.
I agree the rax is less of a priority, but we should keep the hammers alive by spending a turn or 2 on the rax between building other units. I'd hate to let those hammers go stale unless we were sure we didn't want a rax in Ozaka.

The drill promotion is a good promotion for archers. I'm sure we're doing it, but I'll say it anyways - We need to hold off on promotions until an archer needs healing, or an immediate need arises.

Furthermore, getting 300 shields out of Ozaka for 2 settlers is going to take painfully long, it is only doing 6 hpt, and is growing awfully slow. Also, our worker at Ozaka can only chop, build a normal mine and a gems mine (after expansion). The normal mine will probably not be used for a long time and hence is no priority.
When building settlers and workers the highest yield (food and or hammers) tiles are automatically picked and converted to hammers regardless of the food intake during these turns. We'll be getting better than 6 hpt toward the settlers. While a normal mined hill won't be used by our citizens under normal circumstances, having one could decrease the build time of the settlers.

Here's my thoughts on the upcoming turnset, brief version. I'll give my view on zyxy's points as I go:

Smurkyotos
There should be no doubt how to operate our capitol, it's been discussed so much now. The Oracle will take well into McLMan's turnset to complete, so no questions here.

Ozaka
The primary objective at this stage must still be to fend off the barbarians. Our two main weapons are fear and sur... eh, archers and settlers. Settlers are a weapon in this war since a settlement will bust a lot of fog, in particular after expanding the borders. It is a trade-off situation really - we should get settlers out as soon as we can safely do so without risking them or Ozaka.

When we decided on settling two towns at once to minimize maintenance, we didn't really consider the Embarassment of Riches, indeed how could we? Waiting with the first town until the second was settled was more or less the only way since we would otherwise run our economy down the drain. Now we have Ozaka making lots of :commerce:/t, our economy could take the extra burden of yet another town. As zyxy noted, settling it earlier means more time for establishing it and building it up to a level where it can support itself, especially if it is a commerce town. Also settling earlier means earlier fog busting help.

IMO we might have enough military to hold the barbies back now, but not to send settlers out. Possibly we could settle the Naval Base by the copper and stone, since it will be close to Spain we would only have one front to repell barbies on. But it's still too risky. Expanding our borders that much means we need to expand our protection by just as much or more.

I would thus build at least one more archer before the first settler, possibly two or even three. Remember that we've only seen barbie warriors so far. But as soon as we think it might be safe to do so, we should get a settler out. Wait until we have 7 archers, then go for one?
I agree that the barracks have lower priority. I was responsible for generating those :hammers: on it, I didn't want to start a warrior when Archery was due in a few turns. EDIT: I can't remember how many they are, but if we want to keep them then McLMan's suggestion sounds like a good idea. Assuming we can spare that turn in the middle while building our defense...

Remember to have enough units to guard the north to allow our worker to mine those gems. I would definitely turn the warrior around to help with fog busting.

When building settlers and workers the highest yield (food and or hammers) tiles are automatically picked and converted to hammers regardless of the food intake during these turns. We'll be getting better than 6 hpt toward the settlers. While a normal mined hill won't be used by our citizens under normal circumstances, having one could decrease the build time of the settlers.The problem is that we have two 3-yield tiles that we definitely want to work all the time (gems and gold) regardless of whether we're building a settler or something else. And since those two tiles together generate 2 :food:/t, we couldn't hope to work any mined hills unless we also work a :food:-high tile like a farmed rice. At our current pace we'll be building settlers at exactly 7 :hammers:/t, including the 1 excess :food:. Once we grow to size 4 we'll be doing 8 :hammers:/t. Only after Agriculture (and/or AH) can we hope to do better.

EDIT: 1, 2, 3, 4! :salute: :D (check my post count, I've been waiting for this since I missed no. 1k ;))

If we really feel safe right now, then we could go Obelisk -> rax -> archer(s) in Ozaka. That way the archers are better trained, but they come later. The rax is cheap btw (aggressive trait), and will only take 6-7 turns at current rate. Courts are also cheap. Japan is really a good war mongering civ!

@McLMan: of course you're right about the food being added to settler construction, I forgot that. But it still doesn't help a lot. Perhaps if we manage to grow Ozaka to size 5...

When we decided on settling two towns at once to minimize maintenance, we didn't really consider the Embarassment of Riches, indeed how could we? Waiting with the first town until the second was settled was more or less the only way since we would otherwise run our economy down the drain. Now we have Ozaka making lots of :commerce:/t, our economy could take the extra burden of yet another town. As zyxy noted, settling it earlier means more time for establishing it and building it up to a level where it can support itself, especially if it is a commerce town. Also settling earlier means earlier fog busting help.


:confused: Hah? It was you, who tried to optimise the time needed to research CoL, what should exactly fit with the completion of the Oracle for the Slingshot. This slingshot is still 35-38 turns ahead. The first settler might finish in around 20 turns. If you settle asap (+4 turns for hiking) then you have for 11 to 14 turns to pay 6 :commerce:/t maintenance, assuming you make initially 3 :commerce:/t in the new town. Since you want to settle the commerce town of zyxys map, you need a cottage there since there are no minable commerce resources around. But we won't get pottery before CoL - so no cottages available. That commerce drain is 66 - 84 :commerce: until we finish CoL, so it takes 2-3 turns longer to reach CoL, since we make no gold surplus and everything has to be paid by the research. These 3 turns might be important for the Oracle race since we have a competitor civ at it, but since the new city neither can expand or we can improve any tiles prior to finishing CoL, that 3rd city seems to me of much less importance at least before we reach CoL. Can we maybe only finish the slingshot before we settle?

Oh, absolutely, I believe I wasn't thinking straight. :crazyeye:
My initial thought was that we of course wouldn't have any settlers before the slingshot was complete, so I blocked the connection from my mind even when I started considering earlier settlers. So, never mind what I said before, we should definitely not settle until the slingshot is complete.

That doesn't mean we can't build settlers earlier though. But probably archers are more crucial. And zyxy's idea has merit, finishing the barracks quickly could be really helpful.

@dojo: What news? Did you play any last night? :whipped:

That doesn't mean we can't build settlers earlier though. But probably archers are more crucial. And zyxy's idea has merit, finishing the barracks quickly could be really helpful.


I agree. This idea of finishing the rax might be very helpful. Especially since we might have a small problem in the near future, that might be solved with that rax. Spain has fast settled the second city. As a Monarch AI it will not take too long until they settle the third. The stone/copper region doesn't seem to be a too bad region, where we can await Isabella sending her settler to. She might be faster than we are and then we might need to conquer this region rather than to build there. If she has only 2 archers inside we might be able to overrun this city with 6 well trained archers or so. Hmmm maybe that is too far from now, since I haven't even calculated settling only zyxys commerce and military town prior to any war. But a rax is definitely not a bad idea since it is so cheap for us and concerning our military situation we will have benefits from it.

@dojo: What news? Did you play any last night? :whipped:

Playing right now.

Question: We're now losing 1:gold: per turn at 70% research w/ 0 treasury. I'm inclined to derease research to 60% = +2:gold: for the treasury. ??? I'll read over the comments about this, but post opinion.

Edit: Okay, I read what I needed.

Turn 0 - 2170 BC -> Writing [43/268] Science Slider @ 70%

{loaded then quit to reread some posts}

(1) - 2140 BC -> Writing [70/268] Science Slider @ 70%

* move archers to defend against barb warriors
* warrior to north scouts

(2) - 2110 BC -> Writing [97/268] Science Slider @ 70%

* IBT -> archers defeated both barb warriors, both archers promoted to Combat I

{save/quit to consult team}

(3) - 2080 BC -> Writing [121/268] Science Slider @ 60%, +2gpt - auto adjust

* IBT -> archer defeated barb archer, promoted to Combat I

(4) - 2050 BC -> Writing [145/268] Science Slider @ 60%, 0gpt

* worker chop completed
* Ozaka completes Obelisk, begins archer
* S/otos raises concern: +5:) < +6:mad: = +1:mad:
* barb archer appears to SW of Ozaka

(5) - 2020 BC -> Writing [164/268] Science Slider @ 60%, 0gpt

* IBT -> archer defeat barb archer to SW of Ozaka

{save/quit to consult team}

At a loss of how to "heal" S/otos, see image. Our warrior to the north has encountered a barb archer - will report on situation as it develops.

You're not supposed to heal Smurkyotos! We fully expect the 5th (and 6th) citizen(s) to go riot in the streets, make loud noises and generally shout ugly things. It won't matter at all, the rest will still be working as expected, and the angry ones will be whipped as soon as the previous whipping unhappiness ends. :)

EDIT: I'm rather concerned about the science numbers though, they seem frighteningly low! I'm going to have a look at the save...

You're not supposed to heal Smurkyotos! We fully expect the 5th (and 6th) citizen(s) to go riot in the streets, make loud noises and generally shout ugly things. It won't matter at all, the rest will still be working as expected, and the angry ones will be whipped as soon as the previous whipping unhappiness ends. :)

EDIT: I'm rather concerned about the science numbers though, they seem frighteningly low! I'm going to have a look at the save...

Must be my C3C showing. I'll hold for your comments on research.

Aha, you are working the wrong tiles! You must work the oasis, gems and gold in Ozaka at all times, otherwise we're losing 8 bpt! That includes ensuring that no barbies step on any of those tiles.

Oh, and a treasury of 4 is nothing to spare, we need to be on the margin here. You could go for 80% research one turn to bring it down to 1 before going back to 70%.

Oh, and one more thing, now that the obelisk is finished the borders will expand soon. Make sure you have the area around the northern gems secured when that happens, and that the worker is in place to start mining them. We must milk every single bpt we can find to manage the CS slingshot!

:salute: :click heals:

I must've accidently clicked a tile in Ozaka while city view was open.

The archer S-SW of Ozaka should move to the forested grass hill tile. I realize he’s wounded, but by moving there he would gain two very important benefits, (1) He would push back the fog lowering his chances of meeting up with more barbs, and (2) gain a +75% defense bonus from the tile. It’ll take a couple turns getting there, but is worth it IMO.

S/otos: It would appear my numbers are way off on my spreadsheet. Mistaking that WB appears to really have thrown our :food:/t off. I need to readjust that, but won’t have the time to until Friday. My apologies.

I’m curious, the barb archer has two targets, Izzy’s scout (0.6 :strength: with Combat I&II and +50% tile defense) and our warrior (1 :strength: with Combat I&II, Woodsman I and +75% tile defense). Number-wise Izzy is the best target, but I’m curious which the AI will go far. Keep track of this will you dojoboy, please?

Set Science Slider up to 80%; corrected tiles in Ozaka.

(6) - 1990 BC -> Writing [195/268] Science Slider @ 80%

IBT-> no combat w/ barb archer to north
* move warrior south

(7) - 1960 BC -> Writing [222/268] Science Slider @ 70%, auto-adjust

IBT-> barb archer moves into view south of Ozaka

(8) - 1930 BC -> Writing [249/268] Science Slider @ 70%

IBT-> 2 barb archers & barb warrior move closer to Ozaka from SW
* position archers to defend Ozaka

(9) - 1900 BC -> Writing/CoL [0/783] Science Slider @ 70%

IBT-> archer kills barb archer & barb warrior
* Writing researched, set to CoL
* Ozaka b. archer, insert archer
* bring warrior south

(10) - 1870 BC -> CoL [33/783] Science Slider @ 70%

IBT-> archer defeats barb archer, barb archers continue to swarm

(11) - 1840 BC -> CoL [60/783] Science Slider @ 70%

* zzz

(12) - 1810 BC -> CoL [87/783] Science Slider @ 70%

IBT-> archer killed by barb archer to West; archer kills barb archer to NE

(13) - 1780 BC -> CoL [114/783] Science Slider @ 70%

* zzz

(14) - 1750 BC -> CoL [141/783] Science Slider @ 70%

IBT-> warrior killed by barb archer
* archer kills barb archer
* S/otos +1:mad: converted, insert WB & whip; Oracle was 76 turns away before

(15) - 1720 BC -> CoL [168/783] Science Slider @ 70%

IBT-> archer kills barb archer; barb archer moves in from West
* promoted 2 archers: Guerilla I, Guerilla II
* Ozaka b. WB, continues Oracle [73/225] - 54 turns away
* worker completes mine

(16) - 1690 BC -> CoL [195/783] Science Slider @ 70%

*Ozaka b. archer, set to archer

(17) - 1660 BC -> CoL [220/783] Science Slider @ 70%

IBT-> 2 archers kill barb archers

(18) - 1630 BC -> CoL [249/783] Science Slider @ 70%

IBT-> barb warriors advance

(19) - 1600 BC -> CoL [276/783] Science Slider @ 70%

* Ozaka borders expand, worker moves toward gems

(20) - 1570 BC -> CoL [303/783] Science Slider @ 70%

IBT-> archer kills barb warrior; barb warrior advances from North
* archer promoted to Guerilla I
* worker returned to Ozaka for protection

http://home.comcast.net/~dojoboy/ozaka_surroundings_1570bc.JPG

Recap: The barbs were worse than I expected, didn't feel comfortable slipping in rax. I believe things remain on course. Oracle is at 128/225, 49 turns. Smurkyotos is back to +1:mad: for some turns yet. I like the idea of grabbing the copper and rushing Spain early.

We need to turn the corner on these barbs. We should push ut w/ archers. Maybe build some scouts to take advantage of their movement, to move into fog-busting positions.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 2170 BC to 1570 BC:


Turn 62, 2140 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (3.00)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Combat Odds: 7.3%
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (4.50)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Combat Odds: 0.3%
Turn 62, 2140 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 63, 2110 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (3.75)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Combat Odds: 24.9%
Turn 63, 2110 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 64, 2080 BC: You have constructed a Obelisk in Ozaka. Work has now begun on a Archer.

Turn 65, 2050 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (4.05)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Combat Odds: 21.1%
Turn 65, 2050 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 69, 1930 BC: You have discovered Writing!
Turn 69, 1930 BC: You have trained a Archer in Ozaka. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (3.27)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Combat Odds: 45.2%
Turn 69, 1930 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (3.27)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Combat Odds: 18.9%
Turn 69, 1930 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 70, 1900 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (4.80)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: Combat Odds: 4.4%
Turn 70, 1900 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 72, 1840 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (3.30)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Combat Odds: 31.9%
Turn 72, 1840 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Barbarian's Archer has defeated Smurkz's Archer!
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (5.85)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Combat Odds: 1.0%
Turn 72, 1840 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: (Hills: +45%)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (4.50)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Combat Odds: 9.9%
Turn 73, 1810 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 74, 1780 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Warrior (2.90)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Combat Odds: 70.3%
Turn 74, 1780 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Smurkz's Warrior is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Smurkz's Warrior is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Smurkz's Warrior is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Smurkz's Warrior is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Smurkz's Warrior is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Barbarian's Archer has defeated Smurkz's Warrior!

Turn 75, 1750 BC: Smurkz's Archer (3.00) vs Barbarian's Archer (0.18)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 75, 1750 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 75, 1750 BC: The borders of Smurkyotos have expanded!
Turn 75, 1750 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Smurkyotos. Work has now begun on The Oracle.
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Isabella adopts Slavery!
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Archer (2.31) vs Smurkz's Archer (4.50)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Combat Odds: 0.9%
Turn 75, 1750 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (45/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (20/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 76, 1720 BC: You have trained a Archer in Ozaka. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 76, 1720 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (6.60)
Turn 76, 1720 BC: Combat Odds: 0.6%
Turn 76, 1720 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 76, 1720 BC: (Hills: +45%)
Turn 76, 1720 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 76, 1720 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 76, 1720 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 76, 1720 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 76, 1720 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 76, 1720 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 76, 1720 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 76, 1720 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (4.80)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Combat Odds: 4.4%
Turn 77, 1690 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (6.00)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Combat Odds: 0.9%
Turn 77, 1690 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: (Hills: +75%)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 79, 1630 BC: The borders of Ozaka have expanded!

Turn 80, 1600 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (4.50)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Combat Odds: 0.3%
Turn 80, 1600 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 80, 1600 BC: While defending, your Archer has killed a Barbarian Warrior!

Turn 81, 1570 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!
Turn 81, 1570 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!


save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Smurkz_SG002_BC1570_01.Civ4SavedGame)

I’m curious, the barb archer has two targets, Izzy’s scout (0.6 :strength: with Combat I&II and +50% tile defense) and our warrior (1 :strength: with Combat I&II, Woodsman I and +75% tile defense). Number-wise Izzy is the best target, but I’m curious which the AI will go far. Keep track of this will you dojoboy, please?

The barb archer took out Izzy.

Alright, the siege is on! Well played in difficult times :thumbsup:.

I agree we need a few more archers. Currently we don't even have enough troops to defend our worker. Btw, next player, beware: the worker is fortified in Ozaka and can move 1 step N without risk.

The barb problem is not going to get any easier (they'll get axes at some point), and Izzy will start to encroach on us from the north. She has terrible terrain up there as far as we can see, so the next Spanish city could well go to the copper. I think therefore that a settler is needed quickly. If we train a settler after a pair of archers (including the current one), it will finish some 25-30 turns from now, or faster with some chops. This is well after the CoL research finishes, so no problem there. Note btw that the next citizen working the gems will essentially pay the maintenance of the new town. Anyway, our more immediate problem is defense, which is best solved through expansion.
Obviously, finishing the rax doesn't really help if we plan to train a settler so soon, so this should be postponed until after the settler - if it should be built at all.

Well played indeed, we're right on track with both research and Oracle and the barbies have been kept at bay! :goodjob: (but don't fortify workers :nono: ;))

I agree with zyxy in just about everything. I'm also hoping that founding a religion (Confucianism) will help expanding our borders yet another notch, that would help a lot with in particular the northern and western fronts.

ETA on the Oracle is 17 turns from now at the current pace. This could be sped up by using a citizen specialist, but we should only do so if we can speed up CoL even more. Current ETA on CoL is 18 turns, but would be faster if we could get those gems mined. That seems to me the second highest priority, next after barbie repulsion.

Overflow is once again lower than what it should be. But other than that the numbers seem correct, although unfortunately the flooring does seem to be in place. We're doing 22 :science:/t raw, and 22+1 x 1.2 = 27.6, I was hoping for 28 but we've been making 27. Oh well, at least we know. :)

(And btw, shouldn't the number on turn 17 be 222/768? That would be consistent with 27 :science:/t. Not that it matters much. ;))

Sorry for fortifying the worker. Is there a reason not to other than the next player may forget about him? I also agree w/ zyxy. Likely a typo on turn 17, I've already trashed my notes.

In terms of me becoming a better player, if you see any miss-steps in my spoiler or notes, pipe up please. If you're worried about hurting my feelings, don't. Or, PM me. I can see right now, learning the math is probably priority #1. In terms of C3C, I win on emperor but it's bashing teeth, not finesse, and always by the seat of my pants.

I've got it.

Worker move availiable noted.

I took a long look at the save. MM/Whipping is pretty straight forward. Run science as high as we can afford, and I'll get one whip of a Workboat in on turn 10.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/McLMan/SGOTM-02/Turnset%201/ozakadefensestrategy.jpg

Barb archers and warriors descending on Ozaka. Moving the worker one tile is the move to make, but I'm afraid that the Warrior N of the gems will see him and head right for him. Hopefully he'll go for the archer fortified on the hill, but then that archer will get attacked by the barb archer the following turn and most certainly lose if the warrior causes some damage. If we can get an archer to the river gems tile it should do well vs. attack from across the river. The problem is the new guy isn't due for 2 turns. I'm tempted to move an archer out of Ozaka now to cover the gems, but I'd hate for the warrior SW of the city to get a lucky shot in next IT and take the city. Will sit tight and hope the N warrior heads for the hill fortified archer. Then move an archer out of the city (assuming SW warrior suicides) to cover the worker on the gems.

Will play tomorrow night.

I've got it.
I took a long look at the save. MM/Whipping is pretty straight forward. Run science as high as we can afford, and I'll get one whip of a Workboat in on turn 10.

How do you calculate the length of time?

Roster:

Methos - Warming up
Niklas
Marc Aurel
dojoboy - Just Played
McLMan - UP!
zyxy - On Deck!

You whipped during your turnset on turn 15. The "We cannot forget your cruel oppression" :mad: lasts for 15 turns, or 10 turns into the next turnset.

:nono: No more :whipped: of WBs, that won't be necessary. Next time we whip, it will be the Oracle.

Your task now is to get Smurkyotos to size 7, and the Oracle build to 159(+) :hammers:. Then you can whip 3 pop at once for 66 :hammers: which will give a total of 225(+). Continuing without a citizen specialist, the latter would take 16 turns since we're now on 128 :hammers:. You may speed it up by using a specialist, but preferably not more than that you will still grow to size 7 appropriately (actually, we could rush 3 pop at size 6 as well, so that's not really an absolute). The speedup of using a citizen specialist would be 1 turn speedup per 2 turns with specialist, rounded up (i.e 1 turn speedup by using the specialist 1 turn, 2 turns speedup for 3 turns, etc, since we're at an uneven number now). If you really need to, you could use several citizen specialists for a faster speedup, but that's unlikely to be necessary, we can't finish it before we have CoL anyway.

The counterpart is then the CoL research. The perfect situation would be to reach 159 :hammers: one turn before CoL completes, and then rush the Oracle so that it completes the same turn we get CoL. Right now CoL is scheduled for 18 turns from now, but would be sped up if we get those gems worked. It could also be sped up after 10 turns when the :mad: runs out in Smurkyotos and we get an extra working citizen.

There you have the the race condition in all its glory. You want to get to a) CoL in 1 turn, b) Smurkyotos at 159 :hammers:, and preferably c) Smurkyotos at size 7, all on the same turn. And you want that turn to come as early as possible! There's a MMing challenge for you! :scan:

I'm glad we still haven't seen Stonehenge built. In all my test games, the AIs always went for SH first and Oracle after, so the longer SH takes, the more chance for us to get the Oracle. :)

@dojo: You have it right, it's just so that the next player doesn't miss him. Generally you shouldn't fortify any units at handover unless they are indeed intended as fortified defenders. It's no serious offense. ;)

Btw, I looked over your auto-log more carefully, it seems to me you did all the right choices there as regards to attacking/defending. The lost archer was pure bad RNG luck and was bound to happen sooner or later. So again, well done!

Well done, dojoboy. You kept us very well on route to the Slingshot. Now we are so close to it, that we can really look forward to getting it. Concerning the score graph, that will make us to be amongst the leading teams.
There is nothing to add to Niklas post. Everything is well explained what we really need to do now. Straight forward.
What is really important concerning the war is well explained by zyxy. I just don't wanted to have a complete page without a post from me. :) We need to cover the land with archers for complete fogbusting before the barb axes are coming out. They are so powerful that they might drive us back. So look whenever it is possible to reach those hills out in the wilderness. That's it. Good luck McLMan! :thumbsup:

What should be the next tech after CoL be? IW, for the resource and swords (Samurai also need Machinery)? Or pottery, for cottages? I'm leaning towards IW, as I don't see us building cottages for a while yet. And better military is urgently needed.

Btw, how does the Oracle work? Can we choose a free tech, or does it give the tech we're researching (like civ3)?

Minor issues:
1. Once we can afford it we should send an archer to the northern woods, just outside the Ozaka borders, to protect the gems. Don't send a guerilla or city garrison, rather an unpromoted, combat promoted or drill promoted archer.

2. The ideal worker move is probably NW, to the hill. He can still start a gems mine next turn, but if that's not possible for some reason, he can road the hill and improve our defensive position that way.

3. Next citizen in Ozaka can work the second Oasis until the second gems come online.

2. The ideal worker move is probably NW, to the hill. He can still start a gems mine next turn, but if that's not possible for some reason, he can road the hill and improve our defensive position that way.


Important thing to remember here is that we should work the gem tile when possible, even if a barb is a tile or two away. With the roadway, we can retreat the worker when the barb is adjacent. But, at least we'd be working towrd the improvements completion.

What should be the next tech after CoL be? IW, for the resource and swords (Samurai also need Machinery)? Or pottery, for cottages? I'm leaning towards IW, as I don't see us building cottages for a while yet. And better military is urgently needed.I have much the same thoughts as you, IW over Pottery at this point. However, I would also like to see Agriculture fairly soon, since farming the rice will give a 5:food: tile that will be very useful towards settlers. And since Agriculture will take ~1/3 the time that IW will, perhaps go for that first?

EDIT: Hmm, getting the rice irrigated will be tricky. It's not on the river, and we will want to build a pasture on the sheep. I guess we'd have to irrigate from the plains south of the gems, through the grassland that is now a forest. Questionable if that would be worth it though. :hmm:

Btw, how does the Oracle work? Can we choose a free tech, or does it give the tech we're researching (like civ3)?We get to choose, this has been "fixed" since Civ3. So we can start any tech we like after CoL, we'll still be able to choose CS as the free tech.

1. Once we can afford it we should send an archer to the northern woods, just outside the Ozaka borders, to protect the gems. Don't send a guerilla or city garrison, rather an unpromoted, combat promoted or drill promoted archer.Agreed, it would be worth a lot if we could secure this area towards Spain.

2. The ideal worker move is probably NW, to the hill. He can still start a gems mine next turn, but if that's not possible for some reason, he can road the hill and improve our defensive position that way.Interesting idea, I like it. And dojoboy's comment is very true, every turn we can build that mine is useful, even if we are interrupted.

3. Next citizen in Ozaka can work the second Oasis until the second gems come online.Yup. :)

EDIT: Hmm, getting the rice irrigated will be tricky. It's not on the river, and we will want to build a pasture on the sheep. I guess we'd have to irrigate from the plains south of the gems, through the grassland that is now a forest. Questionable if that would be worth it though. :hmm:

Realize that you can irrigate the rice for free even if it isn't connected to a freshwater source. The thing is, the watered rice will provide +1 :food: if it is connected to freshwater. I'm sure you already knew that, but figured I'd point it out just in case.

Yeah, I was talking about getting it connected to freshwater. We should of course build a farm on it anyway, to get it to 5 :food:, but getting it irrigated for that extra +1 :food: will be tricky and might not be worth the trouble. But thanks for explaining anyway, I'm still a newbie in many aspects and next time I won't know. :)

One more thing struck me that we haven't discussed at all yet - civics! With the completion of CoL and CS, we'll have two new civics available to us, Bureaucracy and Caste System. The latter seems of no use right now, we couldn't support any specialists anyway, and Slavery is still very useful to us.

Bureaucracy on the other hand would increase our commerce output in Smurkyotos by 50%, at size 4 that means an extra 8 :commerce:/t. We also get +1 :hammers:/t. The costs are higher upkeep (how much higher exactly?) and the one turn of Anarchy.

I'm not quite sure that we want it now, I'm leaning towards no, but I am sure that we will want it as soon as the palace has been moved. Increasing the production and commerce in Ozaka by 50% would be huge!

Turn 0) 1570 BC
CoL 303/783
Oracle 128/225
Move worker NW to Hill

IT
No barbs attack, barbs on a mission.
Barb on other side of river moves S

Turn 1) 1540 BC
CoL 330/783
Oracle 130/225
Unpromoted archer from Ozaka kills warrior now to our West without losing any HP.
Archer on desert hill kills Warrior that has moved into the SE corner of our territory.
Worker can't move to river gems so he starts a road on the hill. Hold on, he can't move now. What happened? Is it because he's on the hill. He's going to have to stay on the tile. protected by the archer.
All other archers fortify.

IT
Archer in the NW picks the easy target and dies vs. our archer in the open on the West side of Ozaka.
Warrior by gems attacks our Archer on the hill in the East and loses.

Turn 2) 1510 BC
CoL 357/783
Oracle 132/225
Worker moves to gems and begins a mine.
New archer built and covers worker. Rax pops into build order, but I don't want to waste a turn to the next archer. We need to spam units to bust some fog.
E victorious archer promoted to combat I. Move to road.
SE Archer back to desert hill

IT
Barb archer in S attacks our archer covering the gold and loses.

Turn 3) 1490 BC
CoL 384/783
Oracle 134/225
Smurky grows to size 7 in 6 turns. Hire citizen specialist. One gold in treasury and -1 gpt at 70% research right now.
Worker continues mining gems. Cover him with 2 archers to ward off attack from archer now across the river. Need to take care of the Northern fog so that he can complete the mine in 4 more turns.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/McLMan/SGOTM-02/Turnset%201/ozakaview.jpg

IT
Barb archer in the N attacks across the river and loses.
Barb warrior appears to the SE.

Turn 4) 1450 BC
CoL 410/783
Oracle 137/225
Archer moves off of worker to the NE to bust fog.
Citizen specialist is no longer special as he returns to his prior job as a lowly fisherman. (1 more gpt)

IT
Barb archer appears to the far NE

Turn 5) 1420 BC
CoL 437/783
Oracle 139/225
Archer in the Northern woods moves another tile NE to break some more fog.
Citizen specialist back in Smurkyotos. 0 treasury, 60% research, +2 gpt

IT
Barb warrior in SE attacks our archer on the Desert hill and loses.
Barb warrior appears to the East

Turn 6) 1390 BC
CoL 459/783
Oracle 142/225
Archer in Northern woods fortifies
Ozaka grows, work S oasis.

IT
Isabella adopts OR
Barb warrior comes into view in the South

Turn 7) 1360 BC
CoL 486/783
Oracle 145/225
The gem mine is finished. Take citizen off of oasis and put him on the gems.
Citizen in Smurkyotos reminds me of my brother-in-law as he switches jobs yet again. Back to fishing.
Losing hammers on the Rax (I think it was 19 a while ago, now we have 14). Archer due in Ozaka next turn.

IT
Barb warrior moves next to Ozaka on the West, Southern barb inches next to desert hill.

Turn 8) 1330 BC
CoL 519/783
Oracle 147/225
Rookie archer comes out of Ozaka and kills the Barb warrior.
Moving archers to bust more fog in the East.
Let rax build for one turn.

IT
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/McLMan/SGOTM-02/Turnset%201/stonehenge.jpg
Southern Barb moves onto forested hill in our Southern territory.

Turn 9) 1300 BC
CoL 552/783
Oracle 149/225

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/McLMan/SGOTM-02/Turnset%201/otospicture1300.jpg

A citizen in Smurkyotos is mysteriously happy. Am now able to work a citizen specialist and all 4 fishing tiles, growth in 6, CoL in 7 (right now). Oracle 159+ in 4 turns.
3 gold in treasury, will run 1 turn at 80% science (31 beakers/turn totoal) (-3gpt)
Switch Ozaka from Rax to Archer (due in 6)

IT
We get 6 gold from Stonehenge, this will allow us to run at 80% science for another 2 turns!
Barb warrior moves onto oasis SE of Ozaka.
Barb archer appears to our SW.

Turn 10) 1270 BC
CoL 590/783
Oracle 152/225
Desert hill archer drops down and kills the barb warrior on the oasis.
Rookie archer healed and moves to forest SE of Ozaka to meet Barb Archer.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/McLMan/SGOTM-02/Turnset%201/defensepicturewide.jpg

No more citizen specialists in Smurkyotos

IT
Archer attacks our Rookie archer and loses.

Turn 11) 1240 BC
CoL 630/783
Oracle 154/225
Smurkyotos has grown to size 7
It won't all happen at the same time (size 7, 159+ & CoL), hopefully it will be close enough.

IT
Barb Warriors appearing all over in the South. Archers must be staying put in their cities. Will most likely see some Axemen soon.

Turn 12) 1210 BC
CoL 670/783
Oracle 156/225
Worker completes road on oasis
Research back to 70% (+1 gpt)

IT
A barb warrior attacks our Eastern fogbuster (who is fortified in a forest) from across a river. Needless to say he loses.

Turn 13) 1180 BC
CoL 706/783
Oracle 158/225

IT
Rookie attacked by warrior and wins
Another warrior moves onto the South-central forested hill in our territory.

Turn 14) 1150 BC
CoL 742/783
Oracle 160/225 (Whippable now)

IT
The warrior attacks the Rookie, and our man holds his own once again.

Turn 15) 1120 BC
CoL 778/783
Oracle (162/225)
Whip the Oracle
Archer built in Ozaka, move him to the SW to bust some fog. Let the Rax build for another turn or 2.

IT
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/McLMan/SGOTM-02/Turnset%201/col.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/McLMan/SGOTM-02/Turnset%201/freetech.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/McLMan/SGOTM-02/Turnset%201/oracle.jpg

Confucianism is founded in Ozaka
Pick IW to research

Turn 16) 1090 BC
IW 0/448 (Why wasn't there an over-run? Did it spill into CS?)
Switch Ozaka to an Archer

IT
zzzzzzzzzzz

Turn 17) 1060 BC
IW 56/448
Worker roading, pushing back fog. After this archer finishes we should switch to a Settler

IT
A warrior attacks our Southern fogbuster and loses.

Turn 18) 1030 BC
IW 89/448
moving archers to the E & S for busting fog.

IT
Southern fogbuster wins flawlessly vs. barb warrior attack.

Turn 19) 1000 BC
IW ??/448 (didn't get it)
zzzzzzzzzz

I'm going to stop here because it's a nice even number. I think we'll have enough fog busters to try for a Settler when the Archer finishes in Ozaka. We'll need some
better coverage to the East.
Library should be workboat whipped in Smurkyotos.

Link to the Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Smurkz_SG002_BC1000_01.Civ4SavedGame)

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1570 BC to 1000 BC:


Turn 82, 1540 BC: Smurkz's Archer (3.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Combat Odds: 92.7%
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Smurkz's Archer (3.30) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Combat Odds: 97.4%
Turn 82, 1540 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 82, 1540 BC: You have trained a Archer in Ozaka. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (3.00)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Combat Odds: 50.0%
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (5.54)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 82, 1540 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: (Fortify: +20%)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: (Hills: +75%)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (67/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (34/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 11 (73/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (1/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 11 (62/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (0/100HP)
Turn 82, 1540 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 83, 1510 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (5.25)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Combat Odds: 3.2%
Turn 83, 1510 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: (Hills: +45%)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 84, 1480 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (3.75)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Combat Odds: 24.9%
Turn 84, 1480 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 86, 1420 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (3.42)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Combat Odds: 9.2%
Turn 86, 1420 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: (Hills: +45%)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 86, 1420 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 87, 1390 BC: Isabella adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 88, 1360 BC: You have trained a Archer in Ozaka. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

Turn 89, 1330 BC: Smurkz's Archer (3.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Combat Odds: 92.7%
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!

Turn 90, 1300 BC: Smurkyotos can no longer work on Stonehenge. The lost $ is converted into 64!

Turn 91, 1270 BC: Smurkz's Archer (3.30) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Combat Odds: 97.4%
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (4.45)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Combat Odds: 8.8%
Turn 91, 1270 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 16 (83/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 16 (67/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 16 (51/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 91, 1270 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (5.25)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 93, 1210 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 31 (69/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 31 (38/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 31 (7/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 93, 1210 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 94, 1180 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (3.88)
Turn 94, 1180 BC: Combat Odds: 1.1%
Turn 94, 1180 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 94, 1180 BC: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 94, 1180 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 13 (68/100HP)
Turn 94, 1180 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 94, 1180 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 94, 1180 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 94, 1180 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 13 (55/100HP)
Turn 94, 1180 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 94, 1180 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 95, 1150 BC: You have trained a Archer in Ozaka. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (3.46)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Combat Odds: 3.6%
Turn 95, 1150 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: (Fortify: +15%)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 13 (57/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 13 (44/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 13 (31/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 96, 1120 BC: Confucianism has been founded in Ozaka!
Turn 96, 1120 BC: You have discovered Code of Laws!
Turn 96, 1120 BC: Smurkz has completed The Oracle!

Turn 97, 1090 BC: You have discovered Civil Service!

Turn 98, 1060 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (4.50)
Turn 98, 1060 BC: Combat Odds: 0.3%
Turn 98, 1060 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 98, 1060 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 98, 1060 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 98, 1060 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 98, 1060 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 98, 1060 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 98, 1060 BC: While defending, your Archer has killed a Barbarian Warrior!

Turn 99, 1030 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (4.50)
Turn 99, 1030 BC: Combat Odds: 0.3%
Turn 99, 1030 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 99, 1030 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 99, 1030 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 99, 1030 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 99, 1030 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 99, 1030 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 99, 1030 BC: While defending, your Archer has killed a Barbarian Warrior!

You may wish to copy it to Notepad for reference when you write your turn set post. It includes any entries you added with the in-game Chat facility

:dance: We got it! We actually did get it! :eek: :woohoo:

Really well played McLMan, you conducted the MMing masterfully, as well as handling the military with not a single loss! :clap:

And have a look at this graph: :eek:
135962

Full version here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php). Yes, that's our graph sticking up to a distinct first place! :D :goodjob:

Some quick notes on the game, don't have time for more now:
Isabella has settled the stone to the NW. She's asking for it. :hammer:
There's a barbie camp in the far SW, definitely not in a location we'd like.
I agree with building a settler next. I would prefer the commercial site first.
Research after IW: Agriculture -> Pottery?

Roster:
Methos - On Deck!
Niklas - Warming up
Marc Aurel
dojoboy
McLMan - Just Played
zyxy - UP!


@zyxy: Long time to wait since last time, but now you're up in a Smurky game again! :cool:

Turn 16) 1090 BC
IW 0/448 (Why wasn't there an over-run? Did it spill into CS?)

Turn 17) 1060 BC
IW 56/448

Turn 18) 1030 BC
IW 89/448
moving archers to the E & S for busting fog.


Unless I'm mistaken, there was overrun. Look at the difference in :science: earned between turns 16, 17, and 18.

Great turn set! We got it! :woohoo:

Well I can only attach myself to my preposters Niklas and Methos. We got it! Whooohooo! Yeah, great. :clap: :banana:

The first major milestone to the great revenge of Tokugawa plan has been achieved. Now we can relax for a moment and feel much better knowing, that we are on course. Another 'very well done' from me McLMan! Great turnset! :bounce:

Now we have to look over what we need next for the great conquest.

We need:

-Iron: Without iron our slingshot will be senseless. So very good to take an immediate look around where it hides. We are researching IW. That’s what we need to do ATM.

-Machinery for the general purpose of building up a samurai army, too.

-Construction: Samurais are a couple of times more effective when attacking cities with broken walls. So we need catapults.

-Astronomy: The last city standing counts for fastest conquest now that we have achieved the Slingshot. I doubt that the fractal map type in our case is something like a pangea. We have to research to astronomy in any case, I believe. But a question might be whether it is faster to go for construction before or after we reach astronomy. If we can destroy Isabella without cats, we might save some turns to astronomy Catapults are normally very fast built in medieval times, so that we might start with some very easy to be conquered cities and send catapults with the next wave when we have fast researched construction after astronomy. Not sure yet - only something to think about when designing the overall campaign. We additionally might not want to maintain a huge army while we are beelining to astronomy. So cats standing there might serve not many good purposes as long as we can deal with Isabella without them.
What can the way ahead look like? We can:

1. Go for the agriculture->AH & pottery path since our new capital has to grow very strong fast. I agree with Niklas that we want bureaucracy once we have jumped our palace to Ozaka. We play in any case a one strong city approach, which best fits with the bureaucracy civic.
2. Get us asap to machinery, in case we can connect iron. Then build some samurai and destroy Isabella. I think we can wait for them. We also could try to do it with swords some turns earlier to let her not become too powerful, but then we have afterwards some useless swords hanging around which we would need to upgrade for the late phase with money that can be otherwise invested in the research.

From this point on much depends on how many neighbour AIs, where we can immediately look for the murderers, we can reach without astronomy. We should have a coastal city and the ability to build a WB on the continent then to verify this. But in general we have to balance and optimise two things:
The fastest way to conquer the area that can be reached without galleons and the time to research astronomy.
That task doesn’t seem too difficult, since we can state, that conquest will decrease research speed, while research does not much affect our production capacity negatively. So in general I think our priority is fast research. There is only one thing that would stand against this and this would be that all AIs are reachable without galleons. I don’t believe it, but would think we just should clarify this point asap. Spinning the thought only a little further I have in my mind already switched to fast research priority, I think I agree to Niklas idea first to build up the commercial towns for that reason. BTW Ozaka is really great as a commercial center with 2 gems, 1 gold and 2 additional FPs. Since we await this 50% commerce bonus coming from the bureaucracy we would do great with the cottages.
We are IMHO in our considerations on a trip to look for the techs we would really need prior to the astronomy beeline. These should make a real difference in getting to astronomy early I think. Will have myself a look it at this evening. What do you think? What techs are indispensable?

I think Animal Husbandry should come right after Iron Working. A pasture on the sheep would aid both growth and production in Ozaka, while a farm on the rice would be a one trick pony (food only). I'd really like to know where the last of the strategic resources are because Chariots can be effective in early warfare (as we found out in SGOTM-01).

Well played! Two techs, one religion, zero losses - what more can we hope for? well, minus one enemy maybe :mischief:

Got it, will probably play tomorrow evening.

I agree with IW -> Agri. After that Pottery and AH in whichever order seems best. Then on to Metal Casting -> Machinery for Samurai hoping we'll have some iron, knock out Spain (perhaps after a tech trading round, though), and further on to Astro. I don't think there's anyone but Spain on our continent, we would have met them by now.

Also agree with the lib in SmurKyotos. After that, we should perhaps do a court and a lighthouse. Instead of whipping through a boat we can also whip the lib directly and I think that would be my preference. The workboat could explore a bit but is of rather limited use really.

Ozaka will do settler after the current archer. It seems our western archer can move to the hill S-SW and still fogbust the west. The missionary might as well accompany our settler. I was tempted to switch a citizen from gold to oasis, but we will not grow before starting the settler anyway, so better leave it as is.

Not sure why our worker is building a road there. Better chop that forest maybe? We can chop one forest in Ozaka's radius without health penalty. And we'll probably not need the health anyway as we are close to hooking up two food sources.

Also agree with the lib in SmurKyotos. After that, we should perhaps do a court and a lighthouse. Instead of whipping through a boat we can also whip the lib directly and I think that would be my preference. The workboat could explore a bit but is of rather limited use really.... unless we meet some more opponents. Meeting more AIs means more trading chances (yeah, we'll need Alphabet), and research bonuses for techs they know that we want (which won't be many, granted).

In Ozaka we'll want two settlers pretty fast, then the Palace, and then granary, barracks, library, forge, probably temple too. Not to mention the need for more troops. Good thing we'll have Bureaucracy then.

I think MA make a good case. There are really a number of phases for this game, where we're currently at a juncture. First phase was to get CS, we have that now. Second phase will be to expand and build up a core capable of pumping out Samurai, and at the same time research to Machinery (and aquire Iron). Third phase will be to research to Astronomy while building up our army for the offshore invasion. Forth and final phase will be to pour our army over the world. Our task is to make sure that the various race conditions all meet up at the proper points, for instance we want Machinery before our core is ready to pump our Samurai, and we want Astronomy before our armies grow larger than we need.

I think Astronomy before Engineering might be a good idea, but we'll see how it goes. To get Astronomy after Machinery we need Sailing -> Compass -> Optics -> Mathematics -> Calendar -> Astronomy. For Engineering we need Mathematics -> Masonry -> Construction -> Engineering. Throwing in Alphabet somewhere for the tech trading/extortion might be a good idea also, but we might not get the cost back if all the AI has is techs in the religious branch.

:hmm: I'm still curious if Beauracracy isn't worth it with S/otos as our capitol. The question was whether the :commerce: gained would be worth the higher upkeep cost and I'm curious. I'm on my way to class now, but I'll dig into it when I get back. IMO Beauracracy seems worth it now, but I'd like to know for certain. I believe the team consensus is to wait until the palace has been jumped.

Currently, S/otos has 17 base :commerce: with civic upkeep of 0 :gold:/t.

Checking the F3 screen…

136032

...with Bureaucracy S/otos would earn 25 base :commerce: and we would still be paying an upkeep cost of 0 :gold:/t.

Also realize that the +50% :commerce: earned from bureaucracy is applied before any other modifiers. This would allow us to earn a total of 17 :science:/t at our current rate of 70%. We’d earn a total of 15 :science:/t at 60% and 20 :science:/t at 80%. Edit: Just to clarify, the +50% :commerce: is applied before the slider is applied, whereas the bonus from, say a library, is applied after the slider is applied. Edit #3: Clarified my beaker numbers.

I can’t recall how long until we palace jump, but IMO any extra :science:/t at all is always a plus. Also recall that we’d earn an additional +50% :hammers:/t in a city that is only making 2 :hammers:/t. I’m not sure how effective this is, since we primarily will be whipping in S/otos, that additional :hammers: would definitely help out.

One note is that even though we’ll probably whip most builds in S/otos the citizens burned off from whipping are typically :mad: citizens, meaning they shouldn’t affect the :commerce: earned.

IMO I believe it would be in our best interest to switch to Bureaucracy now, rather than wait until after the palace jump.

Edit: I do not know how growth will affect the cost of Bureacracy civic, but do not feel it would be any different prior to jumping the palace.

Edit #2: Wow, I had to remove an icon as I went over the 15 limit!

Good spot Methos! :thumbsup:

But hmm, those numbers don't seem quite correct to me, how did you reach them? 6 :science:/t at 70%, 15 at 60% and 20 at 80%? I think you have a typo in there somewhere. EDIT: No, you're right, I just read the numbers wrong. 6 is the bonus at 70%, while 15 and 20 are the totals at those levels. The bonuses at 60% and 80% will be 5 and 7 respectively. And that's before any prerequisite bonuses are added. I'm with you now. :D

Also since the 50% bonus is added to :gold: as well, we're more likely to be going with a higher science rate, so the actual gain in :science:/t should be if not exactly then at least very close to 8, corresponding to the increase in :commerce:/t.

But regardless of those numbers, the only interesting number IMO is the 0 :gold:/t upkeep. We will gain something for sure, and we won't pay anything. So I agree with Methos about switching now rather than later.

The only negative I can imagine is that we would lose one turn in one of our next towns, compared to if we revolt between the time of building that settler and settling the town. Nothing happens in towns during Anarchy, the only thing that happens is troop movement, so a moving settler is the only gain we could make. Seems a small bonus compared to what we would gain during the time until then. This is of course assuming we will revolt to Bureaucracy sooner or later, but of that I am absolutely certain. :)

Not sure why our worker is building a road there. Better chop that forest maybe? We can chop one forest in Ozaka's radius without health penalty. And we'll probably not need the health anyway as we are close to hooking up two food sources.

Oh please, don't chop the forests. Our idea with the forests was to use them for the fast palace jump. Since we cannot start the palace before we have 4 cities, we wanted to minimise the time it takes to build the palace by chopping. During palace building time we have a huge drag on our economy by two cities that require - 8 :gold:/t maintenance. This will decrease our research significantly. So the forests have a special value.
I only chopped three forests, cause there were still enough around and I was in a severe danger of getting destroyed by the barbs. Thinking back to my test game for palace jump, I had chopped 3 times with a prechop. Finally I whipped the rest. Our current Ozaka is much better than my test town, but there will still be around 10 turns. And even if we have powerful commerce - the other teams have that too. So saving the forest for the palace jump is a little bit optimising towards astronomy. I come back to my idea of conquering rather than building cities, what would cost no maintenance as long as these cities are revolting. And there are Spanish cities that would make a nice target, at least the naval base is looking good. But we would need swords for that and have no iron yet. But maybe you can rethink this strat when you know where it is located. I have a bad feeling that we might miss iron totally on our continent. Just because everything else was too good to be true (or at least too good to be from Gyathaar) so far.

Yes, that's right. Worker was out of improvements to build, so I just had him roading for strategic purposes. I was looking to cut movement costs in the future, and make Ozaka easier to defend.

Pre-chop is a good idea.

But hmm, those numbers don't seem quite correct to me, how did you reach them? 6 :science:/t at 70%, 15 at 60% and 20 at 80%? I think you have a typo in there somewhere. EDIT: No, you're right, I just read the numbers wrong. 6 is the bonus at 70%, while 15 and 20 are the totals at those levels. The bonuses at 60% and 80% will be 5 and 7 respectively. And that's before any prerequisite bonuses are added. I'm with you now. :D

Whoops, should have stayed more consistent. Have edited the above post to make it more clear.

IMO I believe switching to Bureacracy now would be our best option. We only have two cities rather than four. Besides, it appears that it'll be a while before we jump our palace, so those extra :science: from the civic change will really add up.

Pre-chopping: Going off what Marc Aurel said, I agree that if our workers have time they should pre-chop in preparation for the palace jump. I suggest doing it during those times the worker has a few turns to spare.

Great play. Following the discussion. No comments right now, need to reread again.

Turn 0, 1000BC: Smurkyotos before: http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz2_BC1000_Smurkyotos.jpg
Revolt to Bureaucracy.

IT: http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz2_BC1000_Forgotten.jpg
We're Smurkz the Forgotten. Sole consolation is that Izzy is hopeless.

Turn 1, 985BC: anarchy is over. Behold the difference:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz2_BC0985_Smurkyotos.jpg

There are Clams on our western shores!

Turn 2, 970BC: barb archer has appeared to the east.

IT: barb archer dies [0/1].

Turn 3, 955BC: IW [203/448] (forgot last turns). Izzy shows up with a doubly defended settler. Barb warrior appear from SE.

IT: barb warrior dies [0/2].

Turn 4, 940BC: IW [243/448]. Our archer promoted, I choose drill. Izzy keeps marching south, I don't like it - but cannot really do anything. Whacking a doubly escorted settler is too risky I think. Ozaka finished archer, starts settler - it will take 19 turns :(.

Turn 5, 925BC: IW [283/448]. Izzy still moving south :(. Barb archer appeared in south.

IT: barb archer dies [0/3].

Turn 6, 910BC: IW [323/448]. Izzy still moves south. She seems to be going where we want to settle...
In all the excitement I forgot I was prechopping a forest and chopped it for real. Well, it does help with the settler.

Turn 7, 895BC: IW [363/448]. I'm sending an archer east to explore.

Turn 8, 880BC: IW [403/448]. I cannot raise science to get it in 1. Izzy founded Toledo 1 tile E of where we wanted to settle. She's really asking for it...

Turn 9, 865BC: IW [443/448]. Licking wounds.

Turn 10, 850BC: IW discovered, researching Agri [0/133] as our worker is busy atm. Guess where the iron is?
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz2_BC0850_Ozaka_Iron.jpg
Payback time! well, not yet. But just you wait, Izzy. Just you wait. The Smurkz is mad, and green with rage :mad:
There is another iron source down south, and one more in the west btw. None in Izzy land as far as we can see:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz2_BC0850_Overview.jpg

Btw, we could steal a worker from Izzy. Do we want to? Our relations with Izzy are not going to get good anytime, but a war now could be risky, even a short one. I will pause for input, and continue tomorrow. We also need a new dotmap btw.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz2_BC0850_WorkerSteal.jpg

@zyxy: You still have 10 more turns to play! The first round everyone is playing 20 turns each.

Need to pay more attention :blush:.

Interesting times. I was certain the iron would not be that close, since the copper wasn't. But I ain't complaining. :D

Izzy is becoming a real problem. Now that we have iron, we could always build a few swords just to get at her. She has taken our best settling site, and settled in the wrong place too. The tile she settled is very much worse than the one we wanted, 1W, so we should definitely consider razing it and settling our own. The naval base we might consider keeping though.

I think you did the right choices though, whacking the settler would have left us too vulnerable to barbies. We'll just have to deal with her the harsh way. :evil:

EDIT@Methos: Well, he did say he would pause for input and continue tomorrow. :p

EDIT@Methos: Well, he did say he would pause for input and continue tomorrow. :p

:lol: :blush:

I'm beginning to fear Gythaar, things have been too good for us map-wise. I'm just waiting for the other foot to drop ... :twitch:

Well, the shadow of the other foot has shown already, with Izzy being the second smallest nation. That means all the others had better starts...

Yes that looks very good with the iron already improved. :D There was no better tile on the map where it might have popped up. :goodjob: Now we really can think about striking at Isabella. Working the iron hill, we would run on a small food deficit, but can produce swords at a rate of 5. So we would have 4 swords, which we might promote to city attacker in 20 turns and can send at least to archers with them. Maybe best would be to conquer naval base first, cause if she puts up a defense there once we are at war it can get nasty on a hill tile. After that commerce town and the town on the NW coast shoud not be that hard to be conquered, since Isabella seems to have no iron. And the copper will be taken away from her quickly, I hope. That iron and 4th Spanish city changes a lot. Have to look in more detail. What do you think? Time to make detailed war plans?

EDIT: If we produce 6 swords and send two with another archer to the NW town and keep it we have 4 towns with only a small maintenance since the comnquered ones are revolting. Time then to throw in the palace and defend with archers for some turns. We can still chop the forest at distance 2 in the NW of Ozaka. Let's hope there is another one regrowing there in the next 20 turns and all might get well. I agree to raze Toledo.

S/otos: The whip effects should be going away soon (possibly next turn), meaning we can whip that library. That’ll help tremendously with our research! With the library we’re looking at 18 :science:/t @60%, 21 :science:/t @70%, and 25 :science:/t @80%. Note: On the calculations I'm assuming we take the FLOOR after each calculation.

On S/otos build queue, I suggest after whipping the library we go Workboat followed by a courthouse. The WB will take 15 turns and will complete just as the :mad: citizen is calming down. The WB can than explore while we work on the courthouse. Once we jump the palace we’re going to need the cheaper maintenance costs and the courthouse should finish about the time we make the leap. Timing it to finish when the leap occurs will help us a lot with maintenance.

Ozaka: If it was needed we could shave three turns off the settler by switching the oasis to the mined iron. This will cause us to earn -1 :food:. I’m not sure how quick we are wanting that settler out. Note, this also causes us to lose one turn on Agriculture.

I agree we should produce a few swords soon, if only for defense. But maybe first relocate the palace before we start a war? Also, I am for now not interested in the Spanish towns in the north - just razing Toledo and capturing the naval base would be a good goal I think. Maybe research Alpha so that we can extort a tech for peace. Of course keep an eye on the Spanish copper - if she starts to improve it, we should perhaps strike.

I take it we don't want to steal the worker?

With the discovery of iron and the Spanish expansion we could use a new dotmap. Here are some ideas.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz2_BC0850_Dotmap.jpg

For our next town I think we should take purple, green, yellow or lightblue, and aim for a military town.

Lightblue: the original plan. Working wheat, sheep, two plains hills and one grass hill, assumed fully improved, this town produces 1 :food: surplus, 14 :hammers: and 4 :commerce: at size 5.
Purple: working wheat, iron, plains hill and two grass hills this town produces 0 :food: surplus, 16 :hammers: and 2 :commerce: at size 5.
Yellow: working clams, wheat, iron, one grass hill and a plains forest this town produces 4 :food: surplus, 11 :hammers: and 4 :commerce: at size 5.
Lightgreen: working clams, iron, two grass hills and one plains forest this town produces 1 :food: surplus, 12 :hammers: and 4 :commerce: at size 5.


The sixth citizen in lightblue dot can work the plains forest and gain another two :hammers:. Any citizens after that, as well as an additional citizens in the other three towns, generally make at most one hammer each (farm a plains). Yellow dot can transform its 4 :food: surplus into 4 (and later 6) hammers through workshops on plains.

Thus, yellow has the best long term production (by 1 hammer) but only after the discovery of Guilds. Either purple or lightblue looks best to me: purple has slightly higher production, but lightblue will probably be easier to develop (more forests to chop, more food for fast growth). If we settle lightblue, then that leaves room for a town at lightgreen dot to grab the clams, but that is not essential at all. All in all, there is very little in it I think. Any preferences?

The two towns down south are of low priority. The leftmost one would be commercial - the fish and sheep can support six plains cottages. The copper town is a reasonably productive naval base.

BTW, how do you put the spoiler tags around images?


I don't believe this ever got answered. You do it like this:

your image

I like the purple dot. Bigger production in the nearer future is what we're going to need in order to take Izzy out as fast as possible.

There is a barb city in the SW corner of the continent. There's only one barb tile revealed in the save, but I think it might be right on the SW-most proposed city site. We could possibly get the palace moved with one Settler and a capture of this town, especially since we're going to want to keep it.

Ah, my Civ3 fingers are twitching :twitch:. I keep wanting to say that you should settle one tile E of the lightblue dot, to let that town and one on the lightgreen dot grab all the usable land between them. Must resist...

In any case, it's a pity we cannot get both sheep and iron in range, I would hate to miss out on one of those really productive tiles. Clams seem less important.

I'm leaning towards lightblue. The purple location has more production at size 5, but with two food resources lightblue will reach that size 5 that much faster. Lightblue also allows for more forest chops. And later in the game, if we really need to, we can settle green dot as well for the iron and clams.

Turn 10, 850BC (cont): Agri [0/133] We could indeed save three turns on the settler, sacrificing some growth and commerce. I'm not sure, so I'll leave it as is. A brave archer marches off to check out the barb town in the SW.

Turn 11, 835BC: Agri [?/133]. Smurkyotos whips a lib for 2 pop.

Turn 12, 820BC: Agri [99/133]. Barb archer spotted down south. Toledo is buddhist already. Smurkyotos starts WB.

Turn 13, 805BC: barb archer dies [0/4]. Agri researched, start on AH [0/223] for horses and sheep, ETA 5 turns. Check out barb town and see three regular defenders:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz2_BC0805_BarbTown.jpg
Doesn't look too hard to take. We also spot another wheat in the east.

Turn 14, 790BC: AH [58/223]. Shuffling some archers for redeployment to the west.

Turn 15, 775BC: AH [112/223]. Ozaka expands its borders.

Turn 16, 760BC: AH [166/223]. A barb Axeman appears from the southern fog, that's not nice. I withdraw to better terrain. Hopefully he'll head for Toledo.

Turn 17, 745BC: AH [220/223]. Axeman of course comes our way. Switch Ozaka citizen from Oasis to Iron to hurry settler one turn.

Turn 18, 730BC: AH comes in, we research Pottery [0/178]. Settler is finished and moves to his destination, Ozaka continues the rax. The axeman is now in our lands, our worker flees up north and I have three archers nearby, hoping for a defensive kill. The only horses we can see are here:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz2_BC0730_AxemanAndHorses.jpg

IT: Our valiant archer defeats the barbarians [0/5]! But we're badly wounded.

Turn 19, 715BC: Research on Pottery is at a palindromic [87/178]. We settle Raging Smurkz on lightblue dot, it starts on a rax and has maintenance cost 9 :(. Forgot to wake our priest last turn so I do this now and send him to RS. Research to 60%.

IT: Another Barb Axeman appears, and again he's heading for us, not for Spain.

Turn 20, 1000BC: Pottery [134/178]. We spread Confucianism in RS.

notes:

As soon as the sheep farm finishes the Ozaka citizen working Oasis should switch to sheep. Ozaka can and should grow twice. The worker can immediately improve the other sheep I think, no need to hook up both.
Ozaka can train some units when the rax finishes. I like the plan to take the barb town, it is in the right place and saves a settler. It will also train our swords for a spoiling attack on Spain.
We need an archer in the forest SE of Toledo to bust fog. There is a nice first striker out west, but it will take too long to get him there I think. Perhaps just send an unpromoted one and hope for the best. It might be useful to train an axeman. Sorry our defensive position is a bit messy, but I think it can be managed.
There are foreign borders SE of Smurkyotos:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz2_BC0700_ForeignLands.jpg
After Pottery, Alphabet? Or Metal Casting? I think I would go for Alphabet, so that we can perhaps trade techs with Spain before we attack her, or extort afterwards.


The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Smurkz_SG002_BC0700_01.Civ4SavedGame)

Log:

Turn 100, 1000 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Smurkz adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 100, 1000 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 102, 970 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (5.25)
Turn 102, 970 BC: Combat Odds: 3.2%
Turn 102, 970 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 102, 970 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 102, 970 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 102, 970 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 102, 970 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 102, 970 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 102, 970 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 102, 970 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 102, 970 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 103, 955 BC: You have trained a Archer in Ozaka. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (4.80)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Combat Odds: 0.6%
Turn 103, 955 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 103, 955 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 103, 955 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 31 (69/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 31 (38/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 31 (7/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 105, 925 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (5.10)
Turn 105, 925 BC: Combat Odds: 3.6%
Turn 105, 925 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 105, 925 BC: (Fortify: +20%)
Turn 105, 925 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 105, 925 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 105, 925 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 105, 925 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 105, 925 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 105, 925 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 105, 925 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 105, 925 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 109, 865 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!

Turn 111, 835 BC: You have constructed a Library in Smurkyotos. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.

Turn 112, 820 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!
Turn 112, 820 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (4.80)
Turn 112, 820 BC: Combat Odds: 4.4%
Turn 112, 820 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 112, 820 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 112, 820 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 112, 820 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 112, 820 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 112, 820 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 112, 820 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 114, 790 BC: The borders of Ozaka have expanded!

Turn 117, 745 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!
Turn 117, 745 BC: You have trained a Settler in Ozaka. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

Turn 118, 730 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Axeman (5.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (6.60)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Combat Odds: 17.4%
Turn 118, 730 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 118, 730 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 118, 730 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!
Turn 118, 730 BC: While defending, your Archer has killed a Barbarian Axeman!

Turn 119, 715 BC: Raging Smurkz has been founded.

Turn 120, 700 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!
Turn 120, 700 BC: Confucianism has spread in Raging Smurkz.

Well played zyxy, we're still right on track! :goodjob:

Those horses are perfectly placed for our commercial town, with a pasture they will give 1F 4P 2C, that's great! Ceterum censeo Toledinem esse delendam...

We'll have Pottery on the IBT and should start building cottages. Ozaka has two FP tiles in range that will make at least as many :commerce:/t as the oases, and pretty soon will make a lot more. The eastern FP cottage can also be given to our commercial center to work from the start, once it's settled.

Our research is pretty impressive, considering we're paying almost 20gpt in maintenance. We'll have to get Alphabet sooner or later, we can't hope to finish the game without at least some tech trading/extortion. Since we're attacking Spain fairly soon, we might want to get it before that. The estimate is that it will take ~20 turns to get it though, not sure how long we want to wait to go to war. Metal Casting would take ~30 turns, so that will almost certainly not help us in this early war. My vote is Alphabet.

You say train an axeman, I assume you mean sword? We have no copper so we cannot build any axes, or? How many swords would we need to go to war? 5? And what's the primary objective? I would assume either the Naval Base, or the barbarian town down south, and then on to raze Toledo afterwards. We should be sure that we have enough units to do what we intend, since as soon as we have a fourth town we must start that palace, so there will be no reinforcements from Ozaka for a while.

I'm not sure about the way to go from here, but I do know that we need a battle plan before we do.

Roster:
Methos - UP!
Niklas - On Deck!
Marc Aurel - Warming up
dojoboy
McLMan
zyxy - Just Played


@Methos: Your turn again, 10 turns this time. Would you take the initiative to a battle plan?

Let me again draw your attention to the submission page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php). CFR are racing ahead, but they probably have several border expansions already with that early religion. They probably got the slingshot too, so we're pretty equal, except for said early religion. :)

@Methos: forgot to mention that the forest on the hill south of Ozaka is prechopped.

Well played zyxy, we're still right on track! :goodjob:

Those horses are perfectly placed for our commercial town, with a pasture they will give 1F 4P 2C, that's great! Ceterum censeo Toledinem esse delendam...

Ay, Niklus Hispanicus!

We'll have Pottery on the IBT and should start building cottages. Ozaka has two FP tiles in range that will make at least as many :commerce:/t as the oases, and pretty soon will make a lot more. The eastern FP cottage can also be given to our commercial center to work from the start, once it's settled.

Cottages, yes, but with measure. Ozaka has more good tiles than citizens to work them. The current citizenry can work the sheep (when it is improved) and the three metals. The fifth citizen indeed could work a cottaged floodplain, the sixth would probably head for the iron mines. If we switch to a state religion, then we can support a seventh citizen, who could work another floodplain, or another mine. These needs have to be balanced against the needs of Raging Smurkz: improve sheep right away, wheat shortly after, and perhaps chop some forests and mine some hills for production later on. Trying not to waste a lot of turns moving from one town to the other is going to be a puzzle.

Our research is pretty impressive, considering we're paying almost 20gpt in maintenance. We'll have to get Alphabet sooner or later, we can't hope to finish the game without at least some tech trading/extortion. Since we're attacking Spain fairly soon, we might want to get it before that. The estimate is that it will take ~20 turns to get it though, not sure how long we want to wait to go to war. Metal Casting would take ~30 turns, so that will almost certainly not help us in this early war. My vote is Alphabet.

I think a war on Spain would take far more than 20 turns to prepare. Ozaka can currently do 1 sword per 8 turns or so, which will speed up only if we start using the iron, but that will slow or even halt our much needed growth. Raging Smurkz will not help at all unless we chop some stuff.
IMO the goal of a Spanish war would be to take the Naval Base and raze Toledo, preferably in that order (because we can then start the palace move sooner, because Naval Base is the harder target, and because our surviving troops are then in place to take on any Spanish counters). We do not want to eliminate Spain yet, we just want to deny them strategic resources.
We can expect Spain to defend with two archers per town, that defend at 5.25 when fortified, and at 6 if the town is on a hill. Our troops will have two promo's (combat + free choice), so we should have slightly better odds. My guestimate is that 4 swords is the absolute minimum to launch an attack, assuming at least 1-2 reinforcements to arrive later (essentially these will have to take Toledo, together perhaps with some survivors from the first group), and assuming that archers will at least defend our home region. The reinforcements will have to be trained while the first group is on march towards Naval Base, or they have to be trained from Raging Smurkz. After Naval Base falls, Ozaka will be palace building.

A somewhat easier path is to first take the barb town (about 4 swords needed, with 2 archers for support) and get the palace done. Obviously there is a risk that Spain will hook up horses (Toledo will expand pretty soon) or copper, and we should keep an eye on that. I would be tempted to start a war as soon as we see a worker on one of these tiles - and of course grab the worker.

You say train an axeman, I assume you mean sword? We have no copper so we cannot build any axes, or? How many swords would we need to go to war? 5? And what's the primary objective? I would assume either the Naval Base, or the barbarian town down south, and then on to raze Toledo afterwards. We should be sure that we have enough units to do what we intend, since as soon as we have a fourth town we must start that palace, so there will be no reinforcements from Ozaka for a while.

I'm not sure about the way to go from here, but I do know that we need a battle plan before we do.

I meant Axe, and we can built them with iron. Swords are weak vs Axes as they have +50% bonus against melee units. Mounties are best against Axes, but as we don't have horses we might need the second best solution, i.e., some axes of our own.

Got it, though need to do some looking at the save. Great turn set zyxy!

Let me again draw your attention to the submission page.

Check out the power graph! We're doing fairly good. By the looks of the score I'm guessing all the quick jumps in score were those who managed the Oracle slingshot. They seem to all be in a rather close time period.

S/otos: WB has one turn left, so I check out the courthouse and notice it’s grayed out. Huh!?! Whoops, notice zyxy put it in the queue already. Looks like it’ll take 36 turns to complete by hand. Looks like our cultural border will expand in 27 turns. I’m thinking just before the border expansion we should switch to another WB and whip it to explore the SE landmass. The overflow can go into the courthouse. Granted, if our current WB doesn’t find anything to the north it’ll be able to explore to the SE meaning we wouldn’t need the additional WB. The courthouse isn’t really needed until we jump our palace, so I don’t see a lot of reason to whip it if we don’t need to. I’m not sure there is anything else we want to build there.

Workboat: Head north to the stone first, followed by the cow. Hope we come across more land up there.

Ozaka: :hmm: Looking at Ozaka I’m guessing this for my turn set.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/Ozaka.JPG

I’m not for sure if you all prefer a sword or axe, but that is the number of :hammers: we’re expecting to have. A sword and axe cost 60 and 52 :hammers: respectively.

Edit: Not for sure if I did the overflow right, due to the bonus from being aggressive. I'm guessing that the four :hammers: overfow rolls over to only two :hammers:. Please inform me if this is incorrect.

Just a thought, but do we want to build another worker? Once the sheep are improved it’ll take 9 turns to complete, though in all honesty I don’t believe it’d be worth it. This would slow our invasion plans down too much. IMO we should follow zyxy’s suggestion and steal one of Izzy’s workers. Figured I’d mention it anyway. If anything, I'd say possibly put a worker in the queue in RS and help it along with a chop. We need to improve our land faster.

After the sheep is improved move the worker to the rice and start improving it. As I believe it was zyxy who said, we won’t need the extra health so soon, so don’t need to road them just yet. Probably road it after the rice is improved.

War: IMO I feel we should go after Apache first for the experience, quicker palace jump, and it’d be quicker than preparing for Izzy. I’d attack with no less than four swords, though five would probably be best. Will need some sort of defender, possibly a spear with the medic promotion.

Fog busters: The archer south of Ozaka should move further south onto the game hill tile. The archer NE of Ozaka in the forest should move 2 N onto the grass hill tile (the one NW of Spain’s road).

Technology: Going Alphabet next would benefit us more than anything else. It’ll be well after we know our letters before we attack Izzy, so might as well try and get something else from her.

Anything I missed, or against our plans?

Ah, so iron supercedes copper for unit building purposes, cool! :)

@Methos: Judging from the discussion that followed when I posted the exploit, I'm pretty sure that we get the whole overflow. But it'll be a difference of 2 :hammers:, so no big deal in any case.

EDIT: I no longer agree with myself :crazyeye:, so much of the stuff below should be disregarded. The numbers are off since I counted 5 :food: for the rice and not 4.

We really need to start growing Ozaka. After the sheep I would agree to improve the rice, and work that instead of the gold until we grow. That should be for only one turn IICC, working sheep, rice and two gems we'll be doing +7 :food: and we'll have more than 35 :food: in the bin when the farm is complete. The next citizen can then go back to the gold, and we'll still be at +5 :food: while growing to size 6, that's 9 turns. At size 6 I agree with zyxy about working the iron, for 13 :hammers:/t.

I should note that working the rice instead of the iron already at size 5 will cost us 3-4 turns on our war effort, it will cost us exactly 45 :hammers: short term. We'll have to contrast that against the perceived value of growing to size 6. I guess at size 6 the citizen from the rice would go work an FP cottage, so we're talking a loss of ~4 :commerce:/t long term for each turn later the growth comes.

To contrast a bit more to the above, if we built a second settler in Ozaka after the barracks it would take 15 turns, so that would be a faster route towards a 4th town and palace. I don't think it's a good idea though, it will too much delay our advance on Toledo, which is where we really want that town.

I don't think improving the rice helps us much. I would rather cottage a FP (the one in the east is best, as it already has a road), because it is only one food less than the rice and brings in some gold. Also, this saves worker turns that can be used to improve Raging Smurkz.

Gah, I'm counting wrong of course, I figured the improved rice would give 5 :food: but it's only 4. In that case I agree with zyxy, the gain is not enough to warrant not working a cottage FP instead.

Turn 0, 700 BC:
IT- S/otos WB>Courthouse
Pottery>Alphabet [0/672]
Barb axe moves 1-NW putting our gold at risk.

Turn 1, 685 BC: Do some archer shuffling. Archer from the gems moves onto the gold. Archer with all the hill defenses moves onto the gems. WB heads north to explore.
IT- Ozaka Barracks>Axe. Overflow was 2 :hammers:.
The barb axe attacks our archer on the gold and decimates him. The barb axe is at 4.1/5 :strength:.

Turn 2, 670 BC: I’m at a loss. I hate to possibly lose our gems, but Ozaka is more important. Plus I’m thinking the barb axe is probably going to pillage our gold before attacking anyone else. Either way, I move the experienced archer off the gems and into Ozaka. Consider whipping the axe in Ozaka, but don’t believe we can afford to lose the growth. Instead I move our former gold citizen onto the iron to speed up our axe.
Alphabet [35/672]
IT- As expected, the barb axe pillages our gold mine.

Turn 3, 655 BC:
Alphabet [65/672] Upped research to 60%
IT- That’s odd, the barb axe is just sitting there. I’m guessing the AI is healing up.

Turn 4, 640 BC: We don’t have the ability to knock the axe off our gold, so I just ignore him for now. Switch the oasis citizen to the improved sheep. :hmm: Looking at the numbers I’m thinking it might be in our best interest to whip our axe after all. We’ll lose one pop point, but be able to have two axe’s by my turn 9 if I’m figuring that correctly. I’m afraid if we don’t we’re going to get overrun by barb axes shortly. Yeah, I bring out the :whipped:.
Alphabet [99/672] Back to 50%
IT- Ozaka Axe>Axe
The barb axe attacks our archer on the forested hill south of Ozaka and fails! :woohoo: This leaves our archer at 1.5/3 :strength:.

Turn 5, 625 BC: We need to start pushing this fog back, so I send our axe SE to open some of it up. Worker moves to the gold to get it back in line.
Alphabet [129/672]
IT- Someone built the Pyramids. Toledo’s borders expand.

Turn 6, 610 BC:
Alphabet [159/672]
IT- This is a welcome change, a barb warrior pops out of the fog near RS.

Turn 7, 595 BC: Our exploring WB north of S/otos finds nothing more that what we could already see, so heads for the SE corner. I don’t like the idea of using one of our axe men as a fog buster, so move an archer that way instead.
Alphabet [191/672]
IT- Someone builds the Parthenon. Ozaka grows to size 4. The barb warrior moves adjacent to our archers.

Turn 8, 580 BC: Couldn't resist 92% odds, so our archer destroys the barb warrior. We’re now at 2.0/3 :strength: with 9/10 xp.
Alphabet [223/672]
IT-

Turn 9, 565 BC: Move units around for clearing the fog. Our axe spots a barb archer heading for Toledo.
Alphabet [255/672]
IT- Ozaka Axe>Sword
The barb archer moves into Toledo’s borders. This could be interesting.

Turn 10, 550 BC:
Alphabet [287/672]

Notes:
Forest south of Ozaka (on the hill) has been pre-chopped [as per zyxy's turn set].
Considered a scientist specialists in S/otos for a GS, but with the Oracle [+2 :gp:] and low happiness rate not sure its worth it just yet. Once we increase our happiness in S/otos we should consider it. S/otos would really benefit from an Academy.
Our axe near Toledo still has his full movement. I’m more inclined to send him towards Apache, but figured I’d leave it up to the next player or team consensus.
The gold mine will be available next turn, though the worker won’t until the turn after.
Everything south of us, except two tiles near Apache, is clear of fog. Moving the axe west will threaten our archer if axes come around.


S/otos: She has lost its +1 :mad: so now has an additional citizen. Do we want to hire him on as a scientist? We’d earn more :science: that way and speed up our :gp:. Her cultural border will expand in 17 turns and the WB is currently sitting down there just for that reason. I’d suggest leaving the WB there in case whoever is down there sends a ship that direction.

Ozaka: Sorry about using the :whipped: guys, as turns out it wasn’t needed. She will grow in 12 turns, though prior to that will lose the +1 :mad:, so we’ll be okay there. We also already have two axes with a sword done in six. I’m thinking I should have built a sword rather than that second axe, but was worried about getting hit with a bunch of barb axes.

Roster:
Methos- Just Played
Niklas- Up
Marc Aurel- On Deck
dojoboy
McLMan
zyxy

550 BC save ( http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Smurkz_SG002_BC0550_01.Civ4SavedGame)

Turn 120, 700 BC: Confucianism has spread in Raging Smurkz.
Turn 120, 700 BC: You have discovered Pottery!
Turn 120, 700 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Smurkyotos. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.

Turn 121, 685 BC: Merit Ptah has been born in a far away land!
Turn 121, 685 BC: Barbarian's Axeman (5.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (4.50)
Turn 121, 685 BC: Combat Odds: 62.8%
Turn 121, 685 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 121, 685 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 121, 685 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 121, 685 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 121, 685 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 121, 685 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 121, 685 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 121, 685 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 121, 685 BC: Barbarian's Axeman has defeated Smurkz's Archer!

Turn 124, 640 BC: Barbarian's Axeman (5.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (7.35)
Turn 124, 640 BC: Combat Odds: 3.9%
Turn 124, 640 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 124, 640 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 124, 640 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 124, 640 BC: (Hills: +45%)
Turn 124, 640 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 23 (68/100HP)
Turn 124, 640 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 23 (45/100HP)
Turn 124, 640 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 124, 640 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 124, 640 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 23 (22/100HP)
Turn 124, 640 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 124, 640 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 124, 640 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 124, 640 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!

Turn 125, 625 BC: The Pyramids has been built in a far away land!

Turn 127, 595 BC: The Parthenon has been built in a far away land!

Turn 128, 580 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Raging Smurkz!
Turn 128, 580 BC: Smurkz's Archer (3.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Combat Odds: 92.7%
Turn 128, 580 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 128, 580 BC: Your Archer has destroyed a Warrior!

3,000 posts!!! http://smiliesftw.com/x/elephant.gif

Alright, good way to get out of a tricky situation :goodjob:. Too bad we lost the mine, but this can easily be repaired. Our defensive position looks much better now!

In view of this development, I would suggest to send the worker over to Raging Smurkz after hooking up the mine. The fifth citizen from Ozaka can work the gold mine, and no further improvements are needed for a while. This will give us a lot of :hammers: and :gold:, but not a lot of :food:.

In Smurkyotos I would either hire a scientist or use the whip. There is no point in working a coastal tile. If we use the whip we need stuff to build after the courthouse. The only realistic option right now is a granary. Another option is to research Sailing, train a worker and a settler and put a town next to the cow. With the clams and the cow it will be a decent town, but not a priority I think.

Assuming Apache has three defenders, I think we could try an attack with 3 swords and 2 axes, possibly backed up by 1-2 archers if we feel unlucky. Swords (with city raider I) attack at 6.6 and lower the defender bonus by 30 percentage points (because of City Raider I and special ability), so unpromoted archers in Apache defend at 3*(1.75-0.30) = 4.35: this looks like a clear win, even with the archer free shot. If we are not lucky, we can use the axes (and archers) to mop up.

In Smurkyotos
<snip>
If we use the whip we need stuff to build after the courthouse. The only realistic option right now is a granary.

If we use the whip I suggest doing it with the granary and not the courthouse. The courthouse isn't needed right now where the granary would be. Switch to a granary and wait at least one turn, than :whipped: when possible. If needed we can :whipped: the courthouse once the :mad: goes away from :whipped: the granary.

Nice job Methos.

Using the :whipped: was the right move. If we didn't have the axe and turned out needing it it could have been really bad.

With the reduction in size in Ozaka the worker should move on to improving Raging Smurkz.

3 swords and 2 axes are enough to take Apache IMO. It wouldn't hurt to keep an archer with them just in case we get really bad luck with the RNG, but I'd be willing to chance that.

Alright, well played Methos! :goodjob:
I agree with the others' comments, that we turned out not to need that axe is irrelevant, we could have, and the defense of Ozaka has highest priority. :whipped: was the right move.

That said, it puts us in a tricky situation. Should we try to grow it back fast, or keep emphasizing production? If we work one oasis instead of the iron, we will grow in 7 instead of 12, and after that we can work both the gold and the iron to catch up slightly with the lost production. During those 7 turns we'd lose 35 :hammers: compared to working the iron, but would gain 14 :commerce:. Once we're back to size 5, we'd gain 3 :hammers:/t and 7 :commerce:/t. In total over the next 12 turns, after which the two will be equal again, we'd lose 20 :hammers: and gain 49 :commerce:. We would also be at size 5 earlier, so we'd grow to the next level that much faster too.

In other words, short term we'd lose production and gain research. Long term the difference in research will be even larger, production about the same. Due to the lost production we'd lose ~2 turns on our swords though, which means a 2-turn delay on attacking. What do you think team, which will it be?

I'm inclined towards growing faster and sacrificing those two turns. IMO there are a number of other less tangible benefits of having a larger town, such as higher versatility if we need to emphasize growth/production/research, and the ability to whip again if need be. But I could sure be convinced otherwise.

When we're discussing the attack on Apache with less forces, we should keep in mind that once we have it, Ozaka will stop producing units for a long while. This means that the units we have at that point are also the ones that will go to war on Spain, plus some few reinforcements from RS. So an earlier attack is not only a good thing, it has consequences.

Regarding Smurkyotos, hiring a scientist would have the effect of trading one :gold: for one :science: per turn, and one :food: for three :gp:. Our GS would then come in 17 turns. Regarding whipping, with the 50% production bonus we now get 66 :hammers:/pop. This means we don't really need to whip as often, and should only do it if there's something we really need. One possibility could be to whip an obelisk, that would gain us two turns on the next border expansion. Hardly worth the cost of a potential scientist though, and I don't see how a granary or courthouse would be either at this point.

I would like to say "got it", but I'm still a bit unsure if I'll have the time to play over the next two days. I will know tonight, and either post a "got it" or ask for a swap.

That said, it puts us in a tricky situation. Should we try to grow it back fast, or keep emphasizing production? If we work one oasis instead of the iron, we will grow in 7 instead of 12, and after that we can work both the gold and the iron to catch up slightly with the lost production. During those 7 turns we'd lose 35 :hammers: compared to working the iron, but would gain 14 :commerce:. Once we're back to size 5, we'd gain 3 :hammers:/t and 7 :commerce:/t. In total over the next 12 turns, after which the two will be equal again, we'd lose 20 :hammers: and gain 49 :commerce:. We would also be at size 5 earlier, so we'd grow to the next level that much faster too.

In other words, short term we'd lose production and gain research. Long term the difference in research will be even larger, production about the same. Due to the lost production we'd lose ~2 turns on our swords though, which means a 2-turn delay on attacking. What do you think team, which will it be?


I would say : Growth has priority. Thus said having in mind my normal playstyle to make a quick decision, when I am in front of the PC and just want to play rather than calculate every move. If you expect a certain level limit, than fast growth always gives you the largests integral of the curve. Only an urgent need can deviate me from this rule. But since we are the ones who want to attack, we will have time I think. Grow first and work the oasis is my vote.

Considering one town alone, you are right about that integral value. But there is more at stake here. Somewhat simplified, delaying growth by 5 turns would means swords at the ready two turns faster, which means attacking two turns faster, which means all other captured towns can start their growth cycle two turns faster, and also that we'll have a palace two turns faster. Granted, the palace build could be sped up by faster growth as well, if we want to whip it to completion in the end.

But in any case, the overall integral for our whole empire could be lesser by optimizing it for one town. I'm just not sure how to assess the benefits of either approach.

I was leaning toward growth myself, but Niklas' last post changed my mind. We've got to remember our goal in this game - Conquest. If this were a "just win" game then growth would be the easy choice. But we've got to eliminate everybody & the most important thing for that is units, and for units we need production. Growth will come.

If we work one oasis instead of the iron, we will grow in 7 instead of 12, and after that we can work both the gold and the iron to catch up slightly with the lost production.

You forgot to calculate in the +1 :mad: citizen from the :whipped:. We won’t lose the ‘We can’t forget your cruel…” for another nine turns, meaning growing in seven won’t help any. The additional pop gained would be :mad: for two more turns.

I’m off to bed, so can’t do any calculations for you, but I will provide a screenshot of Ozaka for those of you at work.

136310

You forgot to calculate in the +1 :mad: citizen from the :whipped:. We won’t lose the ‘We can’t forget your cruel…” for another nine turns, meaning growing in seven won’t help any. The additional pop gained would be :mad: for two more turns.
This is not quite true, since we'll have +1 :) from the gold that will come back online next turn. So there won't be any problem with growing faster, if we choose to do so. Still not sure which is best though.

This is not quite true, since we'll have +1 :) from the gold that will come back online next turn. So there won't be any problem with growing faster, if we choose to do so. Still not sure which is best though.

Once again, I miss the obvious. :blush:

I'd go with the production. Two turns quicker on the attack could matter with our competitors (other teams), plus don't forget the difference in what we'll gain by having the palace two turns earlier as well. The less maintenance cost for the surrounding cities, plus the +50% :commerce: in Ozaka. I don't believe that'll equal out with the :commerce: lost. Note: I typically go growth first, but in this case believe we should go the production route instead.

One thing we also need to consider is that growth is needed to help :whipped: the palace, though I recall Niklas stating growth should equal out at a certain point.

Ok, so far we're leaning towards production. I'm still a bit undecided, those 50 :commerce: gained is tempting. But rationally I should be leaning towards production, since starting the war earlier and jumping the palace earlier is going to pay off multiple times. As long as nothing goes sour that is...

It seems I will be able to play my turns tomorrow night, so this is an affirmative "got it" from me. :)

550 BC (0):
Alphabet [287/672] 50%, -1 gpt (3 gp)
Move axeman further east to cover more land and to stay in the forest.
Hire a scientist in Smurkyotos. Leave Ozaka working iron to maximize production as per our discussion.

IBT: Barb archer moves NW along Toledo.

535 BC (1):
Alphabet [320/672] 50%, -1 gpt (2 gp)

IBT: As I thought, the archer skips Toledo altogether and moves towards our borders. He must be a Spanish mongrel! :mad:

520 BC (2):
Alpha [353/672] 50%, -1 gpt (1 gp)

Worker road.

IBT: Barb archer moves onto the FP near Ozaka.

505 BC (3):
Alpha [386/672] 40%, +4 gpt (0 gp)

Kill interloper with Axeman, at 98.2%. :p

490 BC (4):
Alpha [413/672] 50%, -1 gpt (4 gp)

Workers complete road on gold.

IBT: Borders of RS expand.

475 BC (5):
Alpha [446/672] 50%, -1 gpt (3 gp)

Workers move S-SW and begin pasture on sheep.

IBT: Ozaka sword->sword
RS grows to size 2.

460 BC (6):
Alpha [479/672] 50%, -1 gpt (2 gp)

445 BC (7):
Alpha [512/672] 50%, -1 gpt (1 gp)

430 BC (8):
Alpha [545/672] 40%, +2 gpt (0 gp)

415 BC (9):
Alpha [573/672] 50%, -2 gpt (2 gp)

IBT: RS barracks->swo... ah no, RS is not connected to the iron, we need to road first. Set an archer for now.

400 BC (10):
Alpha [606/672] 40%, +3 gpt (0 gp)

Workers finish pasture on the sheep.

All in all a very nice, quick and uneventful turnset. :)

Handoff notes:
We need to road to RS before we can build swords there. Either we move due W and road the grass, or we move SW for one turn, to then road and chop. Lots of more alternatives as well of course. I've set the build to an archer, but no shields are invested yet. We should decide on something useful here.
Barbie situation is well under control. Not a single one showed its ugly face, except for the Spaniard in disguise (well, he must have been :mad: ).
Smurkyotos has stagnated at size 8. We could whip, or let the scientist keep bringing in :gp: and :science:
We are paying unit upkeep. We shouldn't let our military grow larger than necessary, though clearly we're going to need quite a few units.


>>The Save<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Smurkz_SG002_BC0400_01.Civ4SavedGame)

Here is your Session Turn Log from 550 BC to 400 BC:


Turn 133, 505 BC: Smurkz's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Archer (3.00)
Turn 133, 505 BC: Combat Odds: 98.2%
Turn 133, 505 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 133, 505 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 133, 505 BC: Smurkz's Axeman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 133, 505 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 133, 505 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 133, 505 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 133, 505 BC: Smurkz's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 134, 490 BC: The borders of Raging Smurkz have expanded!

Roster:
Methos
Niklas - Just Played
Marc Aurel - UP!
dojoboy - On Deck!
McLMan - Warming up
zyxy


@MA: It will be your task to set up our military before the launch! :salute:

Again my friends, please have a look at the submission list (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php?game=50002&displayteams=displayteams&all_0=&include%5B%5D=CDZ&include%5B%5D=CFR&include%5B%5D=Chaos&include%5B%5D=Chokonuts&include%5B%5D=Fifth+Element&include%5B%5D=Fistful+of+Dynamite&include%5B%5D=FUBAR&include%5B%5D=Geezers&include%5B%5D=Gipsy+Kings&include%5B%5D=Isamu&include%5B%5D=Memphis+Blues&include%5B%5D=Murky+Waters&include%5B%5D=Peanut&include%5B%5D=Pioneer+Knights&include%5B%5D=Rat+Pack&include%5B%5D=Short+Straw&include%5B%5D=Smurkz&include%5B%5D=Team+One&include%5B%5D=The+Real+Ms.+Beyond&include%5B%5D=VQ+Black&include%5B%5D=VQ+Red&include%5B%5D=Xteam&format=score&enddate=-100&startdate=-4000&submit=Refresh#format). We're doing remarkably well score-wise. I sure wish I knew how score was calculated, but I suppose land area is a large component since that's practically the only thing we've increased in during my turns (one sword, Smurkyotos and RS both +1 pop, and the gold and sheep improved are the only other differences).

Nice set of turns Niklas. Uneventful is great at this point in time. Enjoy it while we can. This game is going to end up a stressful exercise in keeping the war machine rolling in order to fund research as we expand beyond the brink of what we can afford. At leas that's the way I think it should end up. It seems to be the formula of choice for the high-scorers in the GOTM.

I've also wondered about how score is tabulated. Starting with what I think you already know, but just in case ...

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/McLMan/SGOTM-02/score.jpg

When you hover the cursor over your score it gives a break-down in 4 categories: Population, Land, Technology, and Wonders. I've made a couple of attempts at finding how it's broke down in the past but wasn't able to find anything in the forums. I thought I'd give finding out for myself a crack, and searched the XML files for the word "score", and viola! I found something.

<Define>
<DefineName>SCORE_POPULATION_FACTOR</DefineName>
<!--Score you get if you have the 'maximum' population possible on the current map-->
<iDefineIntVal>5000</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<Define>
<DefineName>SCORE_LAND_FACTOR</DefineName>
<!--Score you get if you have all the land on the current map-->
<iDefineIntVal>2000</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<Define>
<DefineName>SCORE_WONDER_FACTOR</DefineName>
<!--Score you get if you have all the wonders-->
<iDefineIntVal>1000</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<Define>
<DefineName>SCORE_TECH_FACTOR</DefineName>
<!--Score you get if you have all the techs-->
<iDefineIntVal>2000</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<Define>
<DefineName>SCORE_FREE_PERCENT</DefineName>
<!--Percentage of the maximum score you get for free-->
<iDefineIntVal>0</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<Define>
<DefineName>SCORE_VICTORY_PERCENT</DefineName>
<!--Percentage of your score that gets added if you win the game-->
<iDefineIntVal>0</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<Define>
<DefineName>SCORE_HANDICAP_PERCENT_OFFSET</DefineName>
<!--Offset to the score handicap modifier-->
<iDefineIntVal>-60</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<Define>
<DefineName>SCORE_HANDICAP_PERCENT_PER</DefineName>
<!--The amount of the score modifier per handicap level-->
<iDefineIntVal>20</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>

Population and land seem pretty straight-forward. But I'll need to do some more looking to find whether or not certain technologies or wonders are weighted more than others. I'll post more if I can find anything.

@Marc Aurel: If you don’t mind, can you pause when Alphabet is know (in three turns) so we can see what Izzy has to offer?

S/otos: I don’t see a reason to :whipped: the courthouse, as its not something we need immediately. I do think we should consider :whipped: a granary and let the overflow fall into the courthouse. The question is which is worth it more, having the granary for quicker growth after whipping, or the scientist specialists for the :gp:? I’m thinking granary as the scientist loss will only affect 15 turns whereas the granary will affect the rest of the game (or at least so long as we have the Slavery civic).

On the other hand, we should consider the great leader we’re going to get in seven turns. If we leave the scientist specialist we’ll get a GL in seven turns with a higher probability of a great prophet. A great scientist would be nice for the Academy, but a great prophet, if we merge him, would ear +2 :hammers:/t and +5 :gold:/t. If we fire the scientist specialist it'll take 17 turns for a GL.

Also in seven turns, S/otos will expand its cultural borders, meaning the WB should be able to contact the southeastern landmass. I do not believe we’ll be able to cross over.

Tech-wise: After Alphabet I think we should go Metal Casting>Machinery for the Samurai.

@McLMan: I actually didn't know about that breakdown, thanks for telling me! :)

But it seems to be the classic case that the answer only gives rise to more questions. As you say, pop and land seems straight-forward enough, we have 14 pop and 46 land. But 20 techs? We have only 16 currently, so it can't be an easy count. And wonders I don't even know where to begin! :crazyeye:

I've noticed that points possible from population and land change, but tech & wonders are always x/301 and x/230 respectively.

This place is awfully quit. :p

Everthing is more or less straight-forward, so I guess you don't feel there's anything to add really. But there is still the issue with RS, optimising growth to production, and worker moves to bring about this optimality.

I don't have time to do the calculations right now, but my gut feeling says that we'll be better off by first roading the grass to get connected to the iron and start building swords. After that we should farm (and road) the wheat to maximize growth. After that we can let the worker chop and mine the plains hill near the sheep, or first mine one of the two unforested hills, perhaps priority to the grass hill to retain maximal growth up to 5?

@McLMan: It does seem reasonable that those two maximums are constant, it supports the hypothesis that each tech/wonder has an associated score for getting it. But the scores vary for different techs/wonders, for instance the Oracle is worth 10 since it's the only wonder we have. I will keep a closer watch on our scores for a while, to see if I can see something interesting, about techs in particular.

The land score seems weird at second glance, we don't have 46 land tiles, we have 56! (And a lot of water, but I guess that won't count). Can anyone explain the cause of this?

Well done!

Some random thoughts:
1. It seems Apache has a wall(?) Maybe sent our archer over for a turn to check out the number and quality of defenders. It might be that Spain presents the easier target after all :D :crazyeye: .
2. Has Spain built road sections in no-mans land NW of Naval Base? We could send a spare archer over to pillage and delay Spanish advance. Also this might draw more workers to the area.
3. Optimal location for the road connection is E of Raging Smurkz (no river crossing I think, so no need for bridges technology - whatever it is).
4. RS will probably be building military for most of the game. So this is a good time to build any improvements we need. I think a granary is very useful. With a chop and growth in 7 with the new citizen on a grass forest it will take 17 turns I think. Is this enough time for the worker to chop the forest, improve the wheat, and come back to road the deforested tile before granary finishes?

Got it!

Well Niklas, you left me a great position. Thanks very much!:D

Have to take a deeper look and do some calculations on what is best now, but I agree in general on building up a sword army in my turnset.
@Methos: No problem to stop after Alphabet for discussion. What do you think? Shall we beeline for Machinery or postpone it and beeline to astronomy first?

Just got my hands on a civ1 version that runs under XP. Couldn't resist to dream about the good old times and played a couple of turns. Great game, if it still can catch me after 15 years. Just starts to be a real competitor for chess in the test of time.

No problem to stop after Alphabet for discussion. What do you think? Shall we beeline for Machinery or postpone it and beeline to astronomy first?

:hmm: Come to think of it, maybe it would be best to go for Astronomy first so we can meet everyone. Going straight for Machinery will give us Samurai after (hopefully) Spain is gone, so would probably be a waste. Would it be best to go straight for Astronomy so we can meet our other victims and plan accordingly?

Well, since Machinery is on the path to Astronomy, I'm not sure I see the difference... :p

I will play tomorrow 3 turns. We can have a discussion after and then I can continue if we have agreement on the research path or continue the day after.
Well ok, some first thoughts for discussion. I would prefer whipping a granary in Smurkyotos! The overflow would finish nearly also the courthouse, even if we don't need it ATM. The scientist is a little useful, but not really for the GP. There is no need to hurry him ATM. I would prefer not to get an GScientist. Simply cause I like to have a prophet for our holy building. (What is in Ozaka, so we would need to shipo him if possible) That is often a very useful source for money. But even if we drew a scientist I first like to check, whether we can ship him over to Ozaka, when this is the capital. Simply because the +8:commerce: of the palace would vanish and then the academy is quite useless there. So if we find no way to get our Great beakerhead over to the new core, we better can invest him into a Golden Age or make him discover a tech. But soon we will know about the continent SE of Smurkotos and behind the Spanish border there is still the possibility that there is somewhere a bridge to another continent.

I agree with the archers zyxy want to sent to scan Apache and in the space NW of naval base. I also would road the forest tile directly east of RS. But I would build a worker in RS. We cannot work another valuable tile there ATM but will have a dire need for workers in the near future. And archers we have a lot and will not need any more once Spain has vanished and if we are alone on the continent then. That's it. Further input?

Well, since Machinery is on the path to Astronomy, I'm not sure I see the difference... :p

Oooops, hihi, I meant sailing for galleys. :blush:

Oooops, hihi, I meant sailing for galleys. :blush:

I believe Niklas was talking about my post where I asked if we should aim for Machinery or Astronomy. It would help if I looked before asking. :blush:

I'm really curious what Izzy has. Hopefully something to steal trade! :mischief:

I'm hoping for Izzy to have Sailing, that's really the one useful tech we can hope to trade for. The techs in the religious branch are of limited use for us, Masonry could be useful but only as a prerequisite to Engineering very much later.

Something to keep in mind - we actually don't know if we're going to need Astronomy at all yet. Perhaps all we need is a well-placed coastal town with expanded borders that can let our galleys pass? I don't think that's a likely scenario, but I don't think it wise to make any assumptions.

Well, if you are fine with my RS worker and granary whipping in Smurkyotos I can play the three turns right now to let us know about tradable techs.

Well, if you are fine with my RS worker and granary whipping in Smurkyotos I can play the three turns right now to let us know about tradable techs.

It sounds good to me.

I agree to those things, but I don't like the worker in RS. I would prefer zyxy's suggestion of a granary there too. We want to grow RS fast, we can't look at the long term development before we've started the war.

But otherwise I agree with playing now, though I won't see the result until the morning. :)

I agree, we shouldn't build a worker in RS for now.

400 BC (0):
Alphabet [606/672] 40%, +2 gpt (0 gp)

RS set to granary, Smurkyotos whips granary and the Apache scouting archer discovers 3 archers inside

385 BC (1):
Alphabet [630/672] 40%, +2 gpt (2 gp)

North Archer reaches the hill. There is another guarded settler pack coming. It is really time to strike at Isabella.

136448

370 BC (2):
Alphabet [654/672] 40%, -1 gpt (4 gp)

We kill a fourth Apache archer. Ozaka grows and we work the gold again.
Ozaka: sword->sword

355 BC (3):
Sailing [0/223] 50%, -1 gpt (3 gp)

We discover alphabet and go to have a cup of tea with Isabella. She is not willing to trade a single tech to us. There are still two defenders in naval base. So I think 4 ‘city attacker’ promoted swords and two archers will do. Maybe we also can send an axe there.

136449

Hey? You wanted me to stop here for discussion. Where is your input? Will be off for 4 hours. With input I will play then. If not I will continue with sailing to be able to transport units from Smurkyotos or find jump points to other landmasses from our main continent with Spain. Niklas is right! It would be quite embarrassing for us, if a team manages to conquer the world without astronomy while we have beelined to it first. So we have to rule out this possibility or confirm it first IMHO. The war will be done with swords I think and if we are alone on the continent after the war, the order of techs to astronomy does not matter.

Sorry, been a very busy day. :(

I don't want to go ahead with Sailing just yet. We don't have any immediate need for it, and even if Izzy won't trade it to us then it is possible that we will meet someone very shortly who will. Too bad that the overflow is already added there. I would go with either Metal Casting, forges will come in very handy in any case, or just run a few turns on 0% research (ZYSAS) until the borders of Smurkyotos expand and we get to meet the neighbors, then do a new assessment of the situation. If we find no immediate need for Sailing, then I think we can wait and grab it for peace later on instead.

EDIT: To develop my line of thinking a bit more. We don't know yet if we can get an OB agreement with whoever is SE of Smurkyotos. If not, the only thing we could possibly do with galleys is to stage an (archer) invasion from Smurkyotos towards the mainland. If we can get an OB, we can use the Workboat to explore a bit.

Regarding warfare, Izzy has a spear which means she has either copper or iron. We should hit her fast before she has time to build up. Four swords, one axe and two archers should definitely be enough for Naval Base. After that we can leave the archers and axe to defend, and take the rest of the forces south for Toledo, along with reinforcements from RS. IMO this has much higher priority than Apache.

Btw, from the save I notice that the Court in Smurkyotos is finished, you never mentioned it in your notes above. How did the whipping work out? A granary is 90 :hammers:, so it should have cost us 2 pop at 66 :hammers:/pop, with 42 overflow, but it seems to have cost 3 pop? :confused:

Oh, and one more thing, as zyxy noted we should pillage that road between Cordoba and northern Spain, both to delay spanish counter attacks later, and to make sure that no resources from the north (copper, iron?) reach Cordoba.

Few minor points:

1. Apache has walls and archers defend at 6.75. This is a bit too much risk for the potential benefit I think, so let's switch targets to Izzy. Archers at Naval Base will defend at 6 (except for the first one which is a tough cookie at 7.5), and there will probably be only two. If possible, replace axe down south with archer, and send axe back north.

2. Izzy has metal apparently (I see an axe, not a spear, btw.)

3. Where did the Spanish settler go? Where is their worker? Where is Izzy's axe going?

4. I would rather not build an archer at Smurkyotos, it costs upkeep. Maybe switch to Chitzen Itza (hoping to get gold), or research?

5. Would it not be faster if our worker chopped first and roaded later?

6. Agree with Niklas on research to Metal Casting. Sailing should be known to our neighbours at Smurkyotos by now.

2. Izzy has metal apparently (I see an axe, not a spear, btw.)There is a spear in the screen shot with the settler.

3. Where did the Spanish settler go? Where is their worker? Where is Izzy's axe going?The settler seems to have settled somewhere north of Cordoba, the borders there have expanded a lot.

4. I would rather not build an archer at Smurkyotos, it costs upkeep. Maybe switch to Chitzen Itza (hoping to get gold), or research?I agree. Can we build research now, was that enabled by Alphabet? Or could we do it all along and I just missed it? Either that or Chitzen Itza seems fine.

5. Would it not be faster if our worker chopped first and roaded later?No, this is one of those Civ3 misconceptions I've had to unlearn. The time to build an improvement is no longer dependent on the type of tile, so the road will take three turns regardless. :)

That sucks that Izzy won't trade anything.

S/otos can set the queue to research, though we'd only gain 1 :science:/t, so I'm really not sure its worth it. I don't think we should build units in S/otos as was already said, due to more unit upkeep, but we might want to build at least one archer. Once the archer is complete get rid of the warrior. I'd rather have a promoted archer than a warrior as defense.

@MA: I suppose you didn't play the rest last night, will you play this afternoon then? :whipped:

Hmm, I thought I had solved the mystery with the lost pop in Smurkyotos, but now I'm unsure again. Here's what I'm thinking: If you whip an improvement from scratch, it costs you double, just like in Civ3. This is supported by looking at the pop cost for various improvements. In other words, each rushed pop would give 33 :hammers: only, so it would take 3 to complete the granary for 99 :hammers:, with 9 overflow. But then that smaller overflow doesn't seem to be enough to complete the courthouse. :confused:

One thing I'm thinking is that we've seen yet another whipping bug, or another facet of the one already known. According to the known one, when whipping you always get a multiple of the base :hammer: worth, the smallest such needed to finish the build, even if you have a production bonus, and regardless of how many pop you actually spent. In our case that would mean we just got 3 x 44 :hammers:, for an overflow of 42. Is that close to the truth, MA? If so, the "new facet" is that this is true even if you rush from scratch, and should have gotten a penalty. EDIT: Another possibility is that you get a multiple of the halved :hammers:, which means we would have gotten 110 (5 x 22) :hammers:, for an overflow of 20.

If building research in Smurkyotos gives only 1 :science:/t, I'd much rather build Chitzen Itza, the tradeoff will be much higher (though it will come later). I can agree with replacing the warrior, though I'm not sure who is going to attack us. If they don't have OB with us, they can't pass the ocean through our territory, so no one is going to get to us until after Astronomy anyway.

Regarding trading, I'm not sure Izzy is actually so adamant. I recall from SGOTM01 that it happened that I researched a tech, went to trade it only to find out that no one wanted to trade, and then have someone pop up on the IBT anyway asking for a trade.

Yes, Niklas I didn't play last night. Was an urgency case. A friend needed immediate help. Sorry, aaahmmmm mea culpa. I am guilty, but had a definite priority yesterday surprisingly. But I will definitely play today. Again sorry. Please forgive me.:blush:

EDIT: Concerning the whipping in Smurkyotos, it was 3 pop for 44:hammers:/pop. This was 90 for the granary and an overflow of 42 for the courthouse which finished two turns leater due to these overflow hammers. So we invested 3 pop but well invested in both buildings. I have never seen before a wipping that yielded 66 :hammers:/t ???

EDIT2: A first of all - thanks for your multiple inputs. The team is cooperating very well! :thumbsup: The idea with the archer in Smurkyotos was connected to the sailing research. The idea is not only to scout the shore with a WB, but to send a unit to the inner continent if possible. That is often much faster then ship around a landmass. Maybe the shore is blocked already and we need to negotiate an OB contract, but I just wanted to have all reconnaissance options, since map knowledge is often very useful when planning for early conquest. If we get an OB, the land unit might be even faster using the roads there. So I gave this a high priority in my plans. Since we probabaly will have finished the Spanish war long before we can get Samurais by Machinery I didn't think metal casting is immediately needed (however the forges would be great). But I can agree to do ZYSAS for a couple of turns to see whether we can get Sailing in trade. However there is not too much hope that we will. Our relations might only be not good enough. Remember SGOTM01 when we also had problems to trade even while we shared buddhism with our neighbours. But ZYSAS is never a bad idea. The overflow however is not yet invested in the tech. If you mouseover the researchbar you still will find 0/223. The different colours are just there to show what is overflow and what is to be gained when you press enter, but I can still reinvest it in another tech. However I cannot save it up for 7 turns. It will be invested the next turn in what is then our actual research.

No worries MA, sometimes RL steps in forcefully, we all know that. Playing tonight is fine.

Whipping should give 66 :hammers:/pop since we have a 50% production bonus, and these bonuses do affect whipping yield, at least according to what I've read. And if I queue up a work boat, it says that whipping costs one pop, but it costs 45 :hammers:. Strangely though, the Obelisk also costs one pop, and it is an improvement, so it seems I'm way off here in some way. :confused:

AH yes, correct, I forgot about the bureaucracy. Now I understand why you expected 66:hammers:/pop. But I thought it only affects the production itself and not the whipping. Have to check that in the evening. I have no access to the game right now. Interesting question. But I just thought the 44:hammers:/pop to be normal when I whipped. But we shall investigate here.

Surely production bonuses affect whipping yield, that's the whole point of the whipping exploit as detailed in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159109).

Just a guess, but I'm betting there's no one north of Izzy. About the only reason I can see for her not trading anything is because they are "monopoly" techs, especially if we are her only contact. I could be getting [civ3] and [civ4] confused, but I'm thinking willingness to trade is based off of how many contacts that AI has.

I seem to recall this problem in the 4OTM1 game.

No, this is one of those Civ3 misconceptions I've had to unlearn. The time to build an improvement is no longer dependent on the type of tile, so the road will take three turns regardless. :)

Thanks for the response. Never realized that. I guess then the optimal sequence is to improve the wheat after the road is done, and then perhaps move on to mine a hill.

Training an archer for Kyotos to improve our defenses is probably the most useful thing to build there. The alternative of 1 bpt (or 3 gpt through Chitzen Itza) doesn't really help, I agree. Btw, don't we need two culture expansions to be able to send the warrior overseas for exploration? Of course this also requires a galley (sailing) and open borders.

I think Methos is right that the tech monopoly is at least one of the reasons Izzy will not trade. Perhaps our new neighbour at Smurkyotos will.

Regarding the whip: I think we were whipping WB's from scratch for 2 pop, with 43 :hammers: overflow. So there seems to be no penalty for whipping from scratch. I think I have read somewhere that the number of pop whipped is computed without taking bonusses (such as bureaucracy) into account, so that would explain the 3 pop. Then we should have received a 3*66-90 = 108 overflow, but I think overflows are capped at the price of the item you rush, i.e., at 90 in this case. Would this explain it?
Or maybe the 50% price reduction of the courthouse is not applied to the overflow?

Btw, don't we need two culture expansions to be able to send the warrior overseas for exploration? Of course this also requires a galley (sailing) and open borders.

Yes, but I'm hoping the border expansion coming up in another four turns will cover enough of the coastal tiles on the SE'ern landmass to allow us to meet whoever is down there. Or even allow a view into that AI's lands.

It should give us the ability to at least meet them.

The tile 3SE of Smurkyotos is definitely coast, otherwise the two ocean tiles we see would not yield anything. After one expansion the ocean tile 2SE of Smurkyotos will be inside our borders, thus allowing safe passage. So why would we need a second border expansion? :confused:

EDIT: Regarding whipping again, I'm pretty sure that zyxy's explanation is not correct either. The reason is the whip exploit detailed in the thread I linked to above. What it all amounts to there is that you do take bonuses into account when calculating how man pop it will cost you, but not when calculating how much you get. So if you needed 45 :hammers:, had a 25% bonus from a forge, and whipped you would lose 1 pop (55 > 45), but gain 88 :hammers: which is the least multiple of 44 that is > 45.

In our situation that would mean that rushing the granary should have cost us 2 pop (132 > 90), and given us 132 :hammers: (44 x 3 = 132 > 90). The only problem is that it cost us 3 pop, not 2.

In that thread there is a quick mention that says:Assuming the building or unit is already started (so you don't get a penalty), ...I wonder what that penalty is in that case. As noted, we've been rushing WBs from scratch, so it can't be a halving of the yield, then each WB would have cost 3 pop which it didn't. It could be a 25% penalty, then the WB would still have needed 2 pop, since 2 x 33 = 66 > 45, but then we would have gotten 88 anyway (2 * 44 > 45). But this doesn't work well with whipping the granary from scratch, 2 x 55 > 90 so we should still have lost only two pop.
One other possibility is that the penalty affects only the first pop whipped, which would have meant 22 + 44 = 66 > 45 meaning 2 pop needed for a WB, but then we still get 88 since it's the least multiple of 44 > 45. But for the granary, 33 + 66 = 99 > 90, so nope.

Things are even more complicated by the fact that an obelisk costs only 1 pop to rush if we do it right now. It's at 45 :hammers:, which is > 44, so clearly some bonus comes into play here. We really should get to the bottom of this, it could cost us if we don't. :(

Turn 3 (355 BC) Research: Metal Casting [0/1008]

Change prod in smurky to Chichen Itza and research to metal casting but science rate to 0% for ZYSAS to await the contact to new neighbours SE of Smurkyotos.

Turn 4 (340 BC) Research: Metal Casting [18/1008]

zzzzzzz

Turn 5 (325 BC) Research: Metal Casting [18/1008]

Isabella turns up on the sea NW of Ozaka with a galley carrying a settler/archer combination.

Turn 6 (310 BC) Research: Metal Casting [18/1008]

Road finished to connect RS. Worker set to chop forest.

Turn 7 (295 BC) Research: Metal Casting [18/1008]

I am a little bit at a loss. We crossed the 750 :culture: border in Smurkyotos but did not expand???? Maybe it expands at maximum over two sea tiles, since Ireceioved the message later :” The borders of Smurkyotos have expanded!” With respect to this the building of a unit in Smurkyotos definitely would have been a mistake. Thank you for protecting me to do this. Now we get the money when chichen Itza is built somewhere – or maybe we will really build it. BTW we can convert pop to money, if we partial whip in Smurkyotos and get Chichen Itza to be built somewhere else before we finish it.
3rd sword finished in Ozaka. The 4th is started.

Turn 8 (280 BC) Research: Metal Casting [18/1008]

zzzzzzzzz

Turn 9 (265 BC) Research: Metal Casting [18/1008]

Isabella founds Salamanca on the coast NW of RS. She is getting a nuisance and more and more powerful. We have to hurry up now!
Forest near RS chopped. Worker set to build a farm on the wheat.
Science rate set back to 50%. Had waited with this cause I irrationally thought the culure expand may be only postponed by a couple of turns. But now there is no hope any more. We research MC. There are 155 :gold: left for deficit spending.

Turn 10 (250 BC) Research: Metal Casting [55/1008]

Move the archer close to Salamanca but otherwise zzzzz.

Hand off notes: We have the necessary troops to start the war against Isabella in 2 turns. The swords and axe are in Ozaka for the assault on Cordoba. Swords not yet promoted. The city of Salamanca hurts, since it is in our back. We will need to produce at least two further swords and then see how much of them we will need to conquer all of Spain. Maybe we should try to make peace when Isabella is left with one single city for all of her techs.

Gah. So close but yet so far. The worst part about it is that it makes perfect sense for the borders not to expand further than what any town could work. I'm surprised they didn't expand north though, but I guess MA is right in that it only ever expands across two sea tiles. We'll have to wait until the borders expand from the other side then, or Astronomy, whichever is faster.

Anyway, that's no fault of yours MA, you played a solid turnset! :goodjob:

War is getting more and more necessary. It still makes sense to strike at Cordoba first, to cut off reinforcements. Salamanca is a nuicance but no real threat, and Toledo should certainly not be a problem.

The granary finishes in RS in 5 turns, after that we need to start pumping swords there too. After the wheat, it's chopping and mining then.

Alright, well done! We're nicely on track for some hammering!


It's really disappointing that we didn't get a culture expansion. In light of that, I think we should either kill our WB to save on upkeep, or produce a settler and a galley (and after that a worker) in Smurkyotos to settle next to the cow - then the WB can be used for something. We'll need sailing for the galley so this will probably not happen anytime soon.
Spain is a pain, but fortunately Salamanca is another silly AI decision. It cannot be defended, and we can roll over it any time we want. With a single archer for garrison it will not be a threat for a while.
The galley however could present a problem, and we need to watch our coasts. What happened to Izzy's axe btw?
We still did not destroy Izzy's road section. Next player please do so right away. After that, the archer can move east to scout defenses of Cordoba.
One of our axes is still out in the middle of nowhere. Please move it back to Ozaka (and possibly replace it by one of the Ozaka archers). Four swords and one axe should be enough to take Cordoba if defended by the same two archers; the second axe would be needed to take out any Spanish counters from Toledo.
RS can shave a turn off the granary by switching from forest plains to forest hills. The granary will return half of the lost food, so this is a good deal I think.
The hilltop archer E of Ozaka should capture the Spanish worker at the start of hostilities (do not destroy the improvement btw, it will be ours :D). The war can start 5 turns from now, with our invasion force just west of the copper. I suggest our targets are to capture Cordoba, raze Toledo, raze Salamanca, and then make peace in exchange for xome tech(s).
I would keep research at 0% for now. We need to save up about 400 gold for a max run.


EDIT: Izzy does have a sense of humor btw:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz2_BC0250_SpainDiplo.jpg

Roster:
Methos
Niklas
Marc Aurel - Just Played
dojoboy - UP!
McLMan - On Deck!
zyxy - Warming up


@dojoboy: Time to draw first blood! :ninja:

I think we should disband the WB. When we jump the palace, a town on the Cow islet would not be able to support itself in a long while. And if at some point we think it would be worth it, building a new WB isn't that expensive.

That road section must go down.

I agree about capturing Cordoba and razing Toledo, but I would like to hear a discussion about razing or keeping Salamanca. We have discussed putting a town in that location later on, and we will need coastal towns to produce a fleet. If we capture it we won't have to spend a settler on it later. The downside is of course the higher maintenance all over the place.

I'm here guys and following. We've started back to school and I'm slammed. I've got to administrate an athletic event all day today. I've got the save and will look over it tonight and formulate some thoughts. I'm planning on playing Sunday evening, if that will give everyone time to give me some feedback.

Had to go out of town unexpectedly. Family emergency. Back now but have some things to take care of this afternoon. Will get caught back up this evening.

Nice job MA, you've got us in a good position.

Agree with zyxy's concerns over the axe in the SE. He can move toward Toledo to liaise with the attack forces after the capture of Cordoba. An archer can move out of Ozaka to take his place.

I'm all for keeping Salamanca if we can. Any time the AI manages to put a city in the right location is a nice bonus. It will be lucky to be able to take it without autorazing. Izabella will likely whip it back to size one if it grows before or during the hostilities. (Didn't check, she is running Slavery right?)

Of course, let's keep Salamanca rather than raze it - let's hope Izzy is building some culture improvement...

I did some combat tests for Cordoba: 3 CR1 swords, 1 CR1 axe, 1 unpromoted archer against 1 CG2 archer and 1 unpromoted archer, fully fortified in city with 20% defense bonus (i.e., 1 culture expansion). I attacked with swords first, then axe, and never had to use the archer. Typically I lost 1 sword, sometimes 2 or 0, never more than 2.

Test is attached if you want to try for yourself.

Okay, I'm ready to roll. I've reviewed the strategic situation. I know we'll not complete the resarch on Metal Casting during my turns, but what's been decided on for the next tech? Granted, we should get some techs from Izzy shortly. Wait and see. Literature will allow us to build the Heroic Epic = warmongering.

I've got to go do some chores first: mow, trim, chop wood - getting ready for those brutal winters we get here in Tennessee ;) , etc. I will play tonight after my kids go to bed - around 9:30 pm (EST).

Next tech in line should be Machinery IMO. It's on the way to Astronomy, and has no additional prerequisites, so no reason to wait.
Heroic Epic is interesting, but I see no point in going for Literature before Astronomy. No use having a super army, all dressed up with nowhere to go... ;)

Regarding Salamanca, I wasn't considering auto-razing, silly of me. But we seem to be agreed that we should capture it if possible, which could mean trying to keep it around until we know we can. Yes, she's running Slavery, so we'd probably have to wait for some culture in there. This should not affect the upcoming turnset in any case.

zyxy's tests give at hand that we should have no problem capturing Cordoba with our 4 swords and 1 axe. His tests are even conducted using only 3 swords, which seem to be well enough. That means we could start the attack even earlier by marching on Cordoba now. I don't think we should though, the original timeline seems the best. We never know if Izzy will whip something nasty in Cordoba. So a checklist for the upcoming turnset would be (yeah, I'm bored :p):

Turn 0: Pillage the road with the archer north of Cordoba. Pull the axe back from SE towards Ozaka. Switch RS citizen from grass hill to plains hill to speed up the granary one turn. Put research back to 0% for now, we can do max science later.

Turn 2: Move 4 swords, 1 axe (and 1 archer?) from Ozaka so that they end up 2SW of Cordoba (W of the copper) on turn 4. Don't upgrade them until you are ready to strike. Bring along the archer from the hill that you pass along the way. Build another sword in Ozaka.

Turn 4: Start building swords after the granary in RS.

Turn 5: DoW Spain. Move in swords, axe and archer(s) to the forest SW of Cordoba. Possibly use an archer to capture the worker on the copper.

Turn 6: Upgrade swords to CR1, just before each one attacks. Capture Cordoba using swords first. Don't bother upgrading any units that aren't needed, if any. You should have finished a sword in Ozaka this turn (4 x 13 + 10 overflow = 62), so switch to Palace now that we have 4 towns.

After this it's all in the dark. Defend Cordoba, gather swords for an attack on Toledo, and take care of counter attacks. :)

Ohoh, if dojoboy doesn't play soon, Niklas will have the set played in virtual reality before tomorrow evening :D.

Anyway, you forgot:
Turn 0: move archer out of Ozaka to replace the axe down south.

Turn 1: move archer NW of Cordoba 1 tile E to reveal Cordoba's defenses.

On turn 2, there is now no archer to move from Ozaka to Cordoba. There are however 2 archers near Cordoba already. One of them can capture the Spanish worker, the other could join the attack if needed, or stay on the lookout for incoming Spaniards.

Good luck dojoboy!

Ohoh, if dojoboy doesn't play soon, Niklas will have the set played in virtual reality before tomorrow evening :D.
:blush: Yep, I do the best playing in my head, where the AI can't interfere! :D

What zyxy said regarding archers. :)

I've completed 7 of 10 turns, actually saved during turn 7. Things went south fast.

0 - 250 BC: Pillaged Izzy's road; promote swordmen and axeman in Ozaka to City Raider I (axeman at City Raider II); move stack of 3 s/men and one axeman toward Cordoba; move citizen in RS from FP to FH (granary in 4 turns.

1 - 235 BC: zzz

2 - 220 BC: Ozaka b. s/man, set to s/man; decrease research to 0%.

3 - 205 BC: Declare war on Spain; capture Izzy's worker w/ archer; stack moves next to Cordoba.

4 - 190 BC: IBT -> Spanish stack (2 axemen and one archer) moves into view, one tile from our archer; RS b. granary, set to s/man. In attack on Cordoba: lose 3 s/men, axeman victorious v. archer. :( Izzy had 2 spearmen and an archer. Perhaps the hill bonus worked in their favor. I now wish I had waited a few more turns.

5 - 175 BC: IBT -> Izzy stack kills our archeer and axeman; our s/man kills Izzy's archer.

6 - 160 BC: IBT -> S/man kills Izzy axeman, but killed by Izzy archer; Izzy spearman leaves Cordoba and kills or archer in the north - I had moved him in to help; Ozaka b. s/man, set to s/man.

7 - 145 BC: IBT -> 2 Izzy archers appear in the north and Izzy galley appears off the coast in the NW; a Great Prophet appears in S/otos.

I saved hear for counsel. Do we want to sit on the GP for now? Check out the save for opinions on the war. I'm for pushing on toward Ozaka w/ the our s/man & axeman. Ozaka will have a s/man ready in case the Izzy's archers press south.

???

Sorry, I didn't expect that force coming out of the FoW.

I can finish tonight, but will hold to allow everyone to pipe in.

I'm sure the hill bonus did work in Izzy's favor. Should have revised battle plans with the spears. If I'm calculating right, battle odds for CR-I swords vs. spears (unpromoted) fully fortified on a hill are only 54.5%. :sad: Definately not the type of odds I'm comfortable with.

I've looked at the save and here's what I would do. Izabella's going to come at our territory with everything she's got & we don't have enough units to defend it & maintain an offensive. Bring the sword and axe back to defend against the archers, I'd be really surprised if they don't head South regardless of where we send our units. Bring the archer from Salamanca to help out. Whip the swords in Ozaka & Raging Smurkz if necessary to help defend or if it turns out that all Izzy has is the pair of archers. They can be put with the sword & axe to take another crack at Cordoba.

What defenders were in/around Cordoba when you left?

Deleted...

Wow! That doesn’t look good at all! I at least expected to take Cordoba. Darn the luck!

Ozaka: We’re currently at 15/60 :hammers: required to finish the s/man. We can rush now at the cost of two pop with enough overflow [43 :hammers:] almost have another s/man done afterward. Or we could wait one more turn and it’ll only cost one pop with only 12 :hammers: overflow. I’m thinking we might want to do it now to speed up the next s/man.

Izzy’s two archers will stop on the rice and sheep to pillage, which is what we don’t want. I can’t see us being able to stop them from pillaging at least one tile. We should move west to meet them prior to Ozaka and defeat them on open ground. The axemen has the better chance so start with him first. We should probably have at least one axemen without CR promotion for melee purposes.

GP: At 60% research we can finish Poly in 5 turns, and at 100% we can finish it in 3 turns. IMO using the GP on Poly would be a waste. We could either save it for a better tech to rush or eventually ship it over to the mainland for our Holy City. To be honest, I hate to wait that long when we’ll probably get another one soon anyway, so we might want to consider merging him with S/otos. He’ll earn +2 :hammers:/t and +5 :gold:/t.

Hi. Want to inform you, that I am now also moving as zyxy has done in the past weeks. So I will have very little time from now on until October the 15th. Additionally my vacation starts on September 15th and I will be off for two weeks. Hope to be able to follow and participate in the discussion for two further weeks. But fear my time from now on is too limited for aturnset before October 15th. Good luck, but be sure I will be watching.

:sad: Oh no, tell me I'm not awake yet...

@dojoboy: I can't honestly say that you played well :(. You should have known not to attack, not to have declared even. On turn two, after pillaging the road with the archer, you should have had the intel that Cordoba wasn't defended by the two archers we had calculated and simulated for. A war is won before it begins, otherwise you shouldn't go to war. We had enough units to safely handle two archers, but not spearmen. I'm sorry if my pre-post gave the impression that you shouldn't take intel into account, I wasn't even thinking that there could be anything but the two archers we were expecting. We should have stressed this more clearly. I hope you will take this as a learning experience and grow better from it.

This is clearly a major setback. From having had a golden seat, we'll now be struggling every step of the way, perhaps even for survival. What we should absolutely not do is be rash and short-sighted. I would label rushing swords in Ozaka as such. It will quickly give us better defense, but at the expense of long term production. We don't only want to repel any counters from Izzy right now, if we can't build up another strike force and take the fight back to her we're doomed anyway. We have to remember that she is that much larger than us.

What we need to do now is to plan, calculate, plan and plan again. The next few turns will be decisive.

I agree with Methos' proposal for the GP. It will be a very long time before he can research anything worthwhile for us & merging him will help offset the costs of expansion while giving Smurkyotos better production. I'd hate to sit on 5gpt for too long.

:sad: Oh no, tell me I'm not awake yet...

@dojoboy: I can't honestly say that you played well :(. You should have known not to attack, not to have declared even. On turn two, after pillaging the road with the archer, you should have had the intel that Cordoba wasn't defended by the two archers we had calculated and simulated for.

You're right. I feel terrible. I didn't notice the spearmen until I had declared war, capturing Izzy's worker. After seeing them, I should have retreated.

I plan on going on the defensive for my remaining turns. I'd like more opinions on whether to whip s/men or not.

Hmmmm, overviewing the situation I agree with Niklas that our long term production capacity is becoming crucial. So whipping and losing production by that is only a very last minute option when we have Isabella ante portas. Since Isabella is now expecting our attacks she is protecting a front city like Cordoba. This town is on a hill and can be easily defended. So it is not a good idea to attack this city with our limited troops. Salamanca might be destroyed by invasion, so that is also not an attractive point for a first traget of our rebuilt forces. Toledo we wanted to raze, but I would rethink this. We would lose a FP tile for commerce there if we would hold this city, but I think the quick build up of production capability has priority now. An alternative would be the conquest of the NW coast city. But we need recon info before and I expect it to be as well defended as Cordoba. However it is not on a hill and the defenders have weaker values there. It depends a little bit on where Isabella actually put her troops. The next turns however the work is simply rebuilding the army. We should not strike again before we have at least 3 swords avaiable. When we come to this we must decide based on the actual situation then. But the target should be weaker defended than the hill town Cordoba.

Ouch. Starting a war too soon, combined with some unlucky rolls of the dice can easily lead to nasty situations. At least we got a worker :).

Current situation:

Izzy won't talk. When she changes her mind we can assess whether we want peace for ten turns to rebuild our armies.
For now, we'll have to hold out. I agree with Methos that offensive operations are out of the question for the time being - we lost the initiative and we have only two units capable of attacking anything with some chance of success. These are needed to defend our northern borders.
This means that for now, probably for the duration of this war, we play a tactical game defense game. Our sword and axe have to be pulled back into the Ozaka area, and should be kept on the road network as much as possible. For the next turn, that probably means a move SW. I noticed they are grouped and on auto-move in the other direction. Auto-moves are not a good idea in a tactical war situation IMO.
We try to pick our attacks, defending from the high ground and forests, and attacking in the open whenever the odds are very good. Izzy can train troops much faster than we, and so we need to preserve our forces.
There is a galley on the coast, apparently heading our way. Hopefully it just carries some reinforcements for Salamanca, but it could hold attackers as well. If Spain lands some troops next to our iron hill then there is very little we can do about that right now. The fact that she hasn't done so already gives me some hope.
There's a barb archer down south. I suggest to give our nearby hilltop archer two combat promo's - so that he can defend with reasonable odds, or attack the barb with some hope of success if he ventures near RS (or perhaps it's even better to defend from RS).
I would agree that whipping is not needed yet. Ozaka grows very slowly and has decent production. Whipping is a last resort in this town. If Izzy relies heavily on spears, then we should train some axes (+50% vs melee). I agree that we need some troops with combat or cover promotions for fighting archers in the open.
I don't really know what to do with the GP. Optics is still far off, so he cannot move anytime soon. I think we'll need samurai very soon. Does a prophet give any of the techs on the path to machinery? Probably not, so then a great specialist is the best thing. The two shields are not worth much right now, but the 5 gpt definitely is.
What to do with the WB?

And perhaps we should also address the meta problem.

We've been here before. Some team members are discussing how the next phase of the game should be played. It is a very critical phase, where our empire will either grow and gain in power, or will be thrown in disarray and possibly lose part of its might. While these talkative team members are discussing, drilling down even to the detail of moving an archer or pillaging a road section (yeah, they are bored :p), the next turn player is "following the discussion" but not actually participating. In fact he didn't really participate for a long time: maybe he was too busy with other things (apparently, some people have more important things to do than civ :confused: ), maybe he was intimidated by the talkative ones, or maybe he was certain in the belief that "they have it all figured out, so why bother".

Well, that is exactly the point. You should bother, because you play the turns. Somehow, you will need to immerse yourself in the game so that you can understand what to do, and why. Just trying to follow what others say will give you the "what", but not the "why", so you cannot react to different circumstances very well - and it is probably not the most entertaining way to play (IMO), we are not automatons after all.

I think the conclusion is clear: to really participate in this team experience (or in any SG, for that matter), it is not enough to just play your turns. Rather, join in the discussion! Post your ideas - who cares if they are smart or stupid? Ask questions. Comment on the turnsets of your teammates.

I would strongly suggest that we all try to be active throughout the rotation, and not just play our set. If you cannot do this because of time constraints or other reasons, at least try to actively participate from the start of the turnset before yours until the end of your own set.

The alternative that we have tried before, with quite a bit of success, is to have the turnplayer post a plan (with long term and short term goals, and planned game actions) before his turnset. Perhaps we should reinstate this.

And I want to see at least one picture per turnset :D.

Triple post...

And another disaster! Marc Aurel, you are leaving us :sad:! Only temporarily, but still, you'll be sorely missed. Good luck on the move!

Where are you going btw? And does this also mean that you will leave your job in Space Exploration for something more exciting :D?

Well thanks zyxy. You can believe me. I will miss the discussion for SGOTM too. Was a great experience - the start of CIV SGOTM 02!. I will move to Ingolstadt in southern Germany/Bavaria and analyse crashing cars there. That might not be that exciting as space exploration - but it serves a concrete benefit for people - making car crashs more secure for participants and thus protecting the lives of pedestrians! But the real reason is that I will move to my girlfriend who was together with me since 10 years but separated by a distance of 664 km. So will become a hubby. Don't dare to tell me, that now my great time is over and the horror begins - all you husbands with too few minutes per week for civing.

And perhaps we should also address the meta problem.

Very well said, zyxy.

@Marc Aurel: I understand, but boy does that suck! Hope you're still able to pop in every now and than to help with the discussion. Good luck!

Don't dare to tell me, that now my great time is over and the horror begins - all you husbands with too few minutes per week for civing.

Actually, I'd have to say the best thing that ever happened to me was marrying my wife. Wouldn't change it for the world! Best wishes and God bless.

I was so anxious I played one more turn, apologies.

7 - 145 BC: Join GP w/ S/otos; promote archer near RS.

IBT -> RS archer kills attacking barb archer; Izzy only moves one archer south.

8 - 130 BC: Move units back toward Ozaka; building road toward archer near Salamanca for faster movement if needed.

IBT -> Spanish chariot & archer appear to our NE.

9 - 115 BC: S/man kills Izzy's chariot;

IBT -> Izzy's archer does not attack our s/man (3.3/6).

10 - 100 BC: Ozaka b. s/man, set to s/man.

IBT -> Izzy's archer from the north is moving to defend Salamanca, nothing pillaged by Izzy.

11 - 85 BC: Set research to 100%, MC in 12 turns [136/1008]

[Izzy has a spearman and archer in Toledo.]

Obviously, I fumbled the ball this set. There is nothing I can say in defense. A bit of caution on my part would have been the answer.

NOTE: I cannot upload the save to the progress page from school. Would someone please do so? Also, if you would, copy my turnlog here for me.

NOTE: I cannot upload the save to the progress page from school. Would someone please do so? Also, if you would, copy my turnlog here for me.

Done

Turn 153, 205 BC: You have declared war on Isabella!

Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Archer (7.80)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Combat Odds: 22.5%
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer has defeated Smurkz's Swordsman!
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Spearman (5.60)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Combat Odds: 71.7%
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Spearman has defeated Smurkz's Swordsman!
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Spearman (5.60)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Combat Odds: 71.7%
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Spearman has defeated Smurkz's Swordsman!
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Axeman (5.50) vs Isabella's Archer (3.38)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Combat Odds: 94.6%
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Axeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (26/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Axeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (6/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Axeman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Axeman has defeated Isabella's Archer!
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman (5.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (4.50)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Combat Odds: 62.8%
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Isabella's Axeman!
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman (5.00) vs Smurkz's Axeman (3.44)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Combat Odds: 89.6%
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Axeman is hit for 18 (25/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Axeman is hit for 18 (7/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Axeman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman has defeated Smurkz's Axeman!
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer (3.90) vs Smurkz's Archer (2.61)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Combat Odds: 95.0%
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 20 (38/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 20 (18/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer has defeated Smurkz's Archer!

Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Archer (3.34)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Combat Odds: 98.7%
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 24 (38/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 24 (14/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman has defeated Isabella's Archer!
Turn 155, 175 BC: Moses has been born in a far away land!
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Axeman (4.34) vs Smurkz's Swordsman (5.54)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Combat Odds: 24.0%
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 22 (57/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 22 (35/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (66/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 22 (13/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (48/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (30/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman has defeated Isabella's Axeman!
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Swordsman (2.88)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Combat Odds: 75.2%
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 14 (16/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 14 (2/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 14 (0/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Archer has defeated Smurkz's Swordsman!
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Spearman (4.31) vs Smurkz's Archer (3.30)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Combat Odds: 72.2%
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 17 (81/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 17 (64/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 17 (47/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Spearman has defeated Smurkz's Archer!
Turn 155, 175 BC: Xi Ling Shi has been born in a far away land!

Turn 156, 160 BC: Mahavira has been born in Smurkyotos!
Turn 156, 160 BC: The Kashi Vishwanath has been built in a far away land!

Turn 157, 145 BC: The Great Lighthouse has been built in a far away land!
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.30) vs Smurkz's Archer (6.75)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Combat Odds: 0.8%
Turn 157, 145 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 157, 145 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 157, 145 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 157, 145 BC: (Hills: +75%)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 159, 115 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!
Turn 159, 115 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!
Turn 159, 115 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Chariot (4.00)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Combat Odds: 96.0%
Turn 159, 115 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Isabella's Chariot is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Isabella's Chariot is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Isabella's Chariot is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Isabella's Chariot is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman has defeated Isabella's Chariot!
Turn 159, 115 BC: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Chariot!

Turn 160, 100 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!

Turn 161, 85 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!
Turn 161, 85 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!

Done

Turn 153, 205 BC: You have declared war on Isabella!

Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Archer (7.80)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Combat Odds: 22.5%
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer has defeated Smurkz's Swordsman!
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Spearman (5.60)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Combat Odds: 71.7%
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Spearman has defeated Smurkz's Swordsman!
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Spearman (5.60)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Combat Odds: 71.7%
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Spearman has defeated Smurkz's Swordsman!
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Axeman (5.50) vs Isabella's Archer (3.38)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Combat Odds: 94.6%
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Axeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (26/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Axeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (6/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Axeman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Axeman has defeated Isabella's Archer!
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman (5.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (4.50)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Combat Odds: 62.8%
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Isabella's Axeman!
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman (5.00) vs Smurkz's Axeman (3.44)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Combat Odds: 89.6%
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Axeman is hit for 18 (25/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Axeman is hit for 18 (7/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Axeman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Axeman has defeated Smurkz's Axeman!
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer (3.90) vs Smurkz's Archer (2.61)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Combat Odds: 95.0%
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 20 (38/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 20 (18/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 154, 190 BC: Isabella's Archer has defeated Smurkz's Archer!

Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Archer (3.34)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Combat Odds: 98.7%
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 24 (38/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 24 (14/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman has defeated Isabella's Archer!
Turn 155, 175 BC: Moses has been born in a far away land!
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Axeman (4.34) vs Smurkz's Swordsman (5.54)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Combat Odds: 24.0%
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 22 (57/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 22 (35/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (66/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 22 (13/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (48/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 18 (30/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman has defeated Isabella's Axeman!
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Swordsman (2.88)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Combat Odds: 75.2%
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 14 (16/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 14 (2/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 14 (0/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Archer has defeated Smurkz's Swordsman!
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Spearman (4.31) vs Smurkz's Archer (3.30)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Combat Odds: 72.2%
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 17 (81/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 17 (64/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 17 (47/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella's Spearman has defeated Smurkz's Archer!
Turn 155, 175 BC: Xi Ling Shi has been born in a far away land!

Turn 156, 160 BC: Mahavira has been born in Smurkyotos!
Turn 156, 160 BC: The Kashi Vishwanath has been built in a far away land!

Turn 157, 145 BC: The Great Lighthouse has been built in a far away land!
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.30) vs Smurkz's Archer (6.75)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Combat Odds: 0.8%
Turn 157, 145 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 157, 145 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 157, 145 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 157, 145 BC: (Hills: +75%)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 159, 115 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!
Turn 159, 115 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!
Turn 159, 115 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Chariot (4.00)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Combat Odds: 96.0%
Turn 159, 115 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Isabella's Chariot is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Isabella's Chariot is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Isabella's Chariot is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Isabella's Chariot is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman has defeated Isabella's Chariot!
Turn 159, 115 BC: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Chariot!

Turn 160, 100 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!

Turn 161, 85 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!
Turn 161, 85 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!


Thanks Methos. Is that all of it? There should have been a couple turns before I declared war, or at least one.

Thanks Methos. Is that all of it? There should have been a couple turns before I declared war, or at least one.

That was all of it. I've noticed it doesn't pick up everything and I'm not entirely sure what it does track.

Been thinking about it at work all day, and came here from the office after work to give my 2 cents. Turns out :whipped: wasn't the right move, although I was prepared to make the argument for whipping the sword in Ozaka to save the sheep since the only pair of units nearby couldn't get there before Izzy was able to pillage them. Good thing she didn't bee-line for them.

Since we haven't seen any axemen in the current melee yet a sword for the next build in Ozaka is OK, but if Izzy decides to send Axes we're going to need axemen to counter. Luckily she's sending chariots for now, and swords are much better vs. chariots than axes. I only wonder if the slower moving axes are on the way.

I don't think we will have much trouble defending our territory from this point on. We do have to weather the storm and take it from there.

I'll look at the save and comment further after I get home.

We are agreed to turn the GP in to a Super-Specialist right? It's unfortunate we lost 20gp by continuing without a decision.

We are agreed to turn the GP in to a Super-Specialist right? It's unfortunate we lost 20gp by continuing without a decision.

I joined the GP with S/otos, gaining the 5gpt since turn 7.

Swords are great for attacking cities, but not melee combat outside of cities. We may wish to consider building an axe with melee promotions.

I joined the GP with S/otos, gaining the 5gpt since turn 7.

There it is, sorry. Didn't pick up the abbreviations. :crazyeye:

OK, I've had a look at the save.

We're one unit over the break point for unit maintenance so the Workboat in Smurkyotos needs to be disbanded.

We could have turned research on earlier (not a huge issue because Metal Casting isn't something we're going to get immediate benefit from).

The worker needs to build a cottage on the FP he's on, then move to RS to irrigate the plains tile 2N of the city. He can then back-track and irrigate the plains tile for Ozaka. (The most pressing improvement in my opinion is the plains tile for RS, would it be better to not build the cottage for Ozaka & move straight to it?)

Battle plans are to pretty much hold the fort. The archer that is near Toledo should not go back to his fog-busting duties. Maybe the barbs will help us out by going after Toledo. The archer near Salamanca needs to stay near the city, but head North in case he's pressed into service defending the territory from Northern attacks. Archer N of the barb city in the South needs to stay put to put down any attackers from there. Melee units will rotate out of Ozaka as necessary to heal. Axemen that get promoted in battle should be given the shock promotion. We won't be able to give it to them out of the barracks because Combat I is a requirement for it.

Longer term - re-build a strike force & take the fight back to Izzy. If the opportunity for peace presents itself I think we should take it unless we're in great shape to reassemble. (Although that won't happen in the next 10 turns).

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/McLMan/SGOTM-02/BC085BattlePlans.jpg

EDIT: Got it.

Hey guys, just saw that AlanH posted the signup for Civ3 SGOTM 11 >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=184054).

CIV SGOTM 2 Stuff
I think the conclusion is clear: to really participate in this team experience (or in any SG, for that matter), it is not enough to just play your turns. Rather, join in the discussion! Post your ideas - who cares if they are smart or stupid? Ask questions. Comment on the turnsets of your teammates.

Gotta be active, especially in SGOTMs. If something is unclear, ask about it. Don't be bashful. Just ask for a more detailed explanation of the issue. Or restate what you think is being discussed.

Just don't go silent because you think that you are understanding all that is being said. Trust me, you are wrong.

Gah, sorry I've been out of it. My internet connection has started getting hiccups, it went away last night (again, third time in as many days) and only came back this morning.

Don't have time to post much right now, except that a) dojoboy, nice wrap-up, you handled that with the honor, b) MA, you will be missed, I hope you try to drop by for as often as you can, and c) zyxy is Oh So Right. I'll post more thoughts later today, got to do some work first :( ;).

EDIT: I signed up for SGOTM11, come on guys! :whipped: In particular I'd like to extend the welcome to dojoboy and Methos. I know dojoboy still plays Civ3, I've seen his spoilers in the GOTM, so no reason not to join! Methos is a tougher nut to crack...

Oh well, that's better. We are getting back to business. Well done, dojoboy:goodjob: I think we should conquer Salamanca, once it has grown to size 2. Isabella cannot immediately whip there since she has only 1 pop available. She is working the forest tile NE of the town, so it will grow in a couple of turns. Would be a good idea to have some swords ready to strike then on the tile SE of the town, if we are safe in defending Ozaka. This town we want to keep in any case. Then we might decide on peace in which we might also get something (a tech) from her, because we have conquered one of her towns and build the palace. Or maybe we can push on to Toledo or so.

I think we should conquer Salamanca, once it has grown to size 2. Isabella cannot immediately whip there since she has only 1 pop available.

Once I realized her archer was heading toward Salamanca, I felt a need to kill it. Another defender there is not good.

Second half of the turnset was definitely better than the first :D.

Picture says more than a thousand words:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz2_BC0085_Battlemap.jpg


Ok, some words as well :D:

The element of surprise is gone, so we can just as well attack towns in order of difficulty, easiest and closest first. At the moment, the easiest seems to be Salamanca, followed by Toledo (has walls!) and finally Cordoba.
If it looks like we can easily manage the war with little losses on our side, I would rather not make peace. That way, Izzy will keep losing her spare troops in a trickle. If we make peace we'll be facing a fresh force when we redeclare.
When will Salamanca grow? Can we have an adequate force ready for when it does? With one defender I would risk it with two swords, and that archer. Btw, it might be interesting to see what happens if we move our axe one tile away from the iron (but remaining on road). If this attracts the Spanish archer in the west, then we can whack him.
Based on what we have seen sofar, Izzy has horses and probably copper. I don't think she has iron.
I agree we need some axes after the swords that are currently being trained. They will also work well against spears.



We're one unit over the break point for unit maintenance so the Workboat in Smurkyotos needs to be disbanded. Agree.

The worker needs to build a cottage on the FP he's on, then move to RS to irrigate the plains tile 2N of the city. He can then back-track and irrigate the plains tile for Ozaka. (The most pressing improvement in my opinion is the plains tile for RS, would it be better to not build the cottage for Ozaka & move straight to it?) I'm not sure I understand. Why are the plains so important? We have large food surplus in RS, and we need :hammers:, so maybe improve some hills? The cottage is ok I think, though not urgent; we can use it to grow Ozaka at some point.

Battle plans are to pretty much hold the fort. The archer that is near Toledo should not go back to his fog-busting duties. Agree, see pic above.
The archer near Salamanca needs to stay near the city, but head North in case he's pressed into service defending the territory from Northern attacks. The tile he's on will have a road soon. So it might be better to stay there. Then by relaying through RS we'll be able to move an archer north pretty quickly.

Archer N of the barb city in the South needs to stay put to put down any attackers from there. Melee units will rotate out of Ozaka as necessary to heal. Axemen that get promoted in battle should be given the shock promotion. We won't be able to give it to them out of the barracks because Combat I is a requirement for it. Our axes start with Combat I (aggressive). Why give them shock? It's a good promo I think, but so is cover, depending on what Izzy sends our way. All else sounds good.

Longer term - re-build a strike force & take the fight back to Izzy. If the opportunity for peace presents itself I think we should take it unless we're in great shape to reassemble. (Although that won't happen in the next 10 turns). An attack on Salamanca might be possible next set unless it is reinforced - e.g. two swords + one archer vs one archer is almost certain win.

The archer moved from the north, was not dropped off by galley.

[list]
The element of surprise is gone, so we can just as well attack towns in order of difficulty, easiest and closest first. At the moment, the easiest seems to be Salamanca, followed by Toledo (has walls!) and finally Cordoba.
If it looks like we can easily manage the war with little losses on our side, I would rather not make peace. That way, Izzy will keep losing her spare troops in a trickle. If we make peace we'll be facing a fresh force when we redeclare.


I certainly would like to see the war continue, rather than signing peace when possible. I believe the objectives can be met to some degree. Coming to terms with Salamanca and Toledo ASAP would then allow us to focus north. Goes without saying, eh.

That archer west of Ozaka, I would like it dead before it reaches Salamanca. Any chance?

IIRC the galley on the West Coast is empty. Can't really tell from the screen shot & I'm not at home right now.

Alright, I'll try to add some thoughts to the mix.

First of all some pep talk, we should all realize that we're not that bad off after all. Checking the graphs, we're still ahead of most in score. It was our power that took a distinct dip, but no worse than that we're still ahead of most others there too. After the remainder of dojoboy's turnset, the immediate danger has passed. We can now again focus on building up a force and striking where we can. We have lost some momentum temporarily, but we're definitely not beaten.

zyxy's overview is right on the mark, as always. We'll be fighting a holding war for a while, but the initiative is still on our side.

If it looks like we can easily manage the war with little losses on our side, I would rather not make peace. That way, Izzy will keep losing her spare troops in a trickle. If we make peace we'll be facing a fresh force when we redeclare.Agree. If we can't bring the war back to her, we can just as well give up. Better to keep taking out her offense and build up for another strike.
Based on what we have seen sofar, Izzy has horses and probably copper. I don't think she has iron.I agree with this assessment. Counting her towns, she must have one somewhere north of the capitol. Could it be that she has found horses and copper up north?
I agree we need some axes after the swords that are currently being trained. They will also work well against spears.In the current situation I would like to see at least as many axes as swords. They are cheaper, and will be better against spears and other axes. If Toledo has a spear and an archer, my gut feeling is that three axes would do a better job than three swords. Could we have some calculations on this?


I'm not sure I understand. Why are the plains so important? We have large food surplus in RS, and we need :hammers:, so maybe improve some hills? The cottage is ok I think, though not urgent; we can use it to grow Ozaka at some point.I wonder this too. Sure we want to grow, but we have a lot of food already. Better to concentrate on mining the hills and chopping forests for fast production.


An attack on Salamanca might be possible next set unless it is reinforced - e.g. two swords + one archer vs one archer is almost certain win.This sounds like good odds, but the way things are now we really want to keep that town. The crucial point is when it grows, we should hit on that very turn if possible to avoid a whipping. It takes 17 turns from when it was founded, assuming it works the clams. I'll check backwards to find when exactly that was.

IIRC Salamanca is working the forest.

You are right, she is, it's visible in the screen shot. That still makes for +2 :food:/t though, so growth in 17 still holds. It was founded on the IBT to turn 9 or 10 of MA's turnset, can't really tell which from his log. That makes it 12 or 13 turns ago, so it should grow in 4 or 5 turns more. Can we have a force assembled by then? Don't have time to check now. Also that would require taking out the archer headed there, as dojoboy suggests.

We can have the sword that is fortified in Ozaka and the new sword from RS on the same tile as the archer in 3 turns. This will leave us with the axe & wounded sword to defend against the N archers, with another sword able to help out in 5 turns.

Dealing with the archer NE of Salamanca archer is a little trickier. My 1st thought was to move the axe off of the hill toward it trying to draw it into an attack. Down side is if the archer heads straight for Salamanca we'll never catch it. It would also take him off of the road and make him one turn off of being able to help defending our improvements. Idea #2 is to move the archer SE of Salamnca 1N in hopes the AI will see this territorial invasion as a prospective attack and force the archer to attack from across the river. If the archer then moves to the forest in an attempt to reach Salamanca he'll be able to take a shot at him. It would be our Drill II archer vs. an unpromoted archer in a forest. I'm not sure how to figure the first strikes, but I don't think it will be great odds of winning (although better than a prayer - 40% maybe). The archer is, however, the only unit with a chance to attack the archer before it can reach Salamanca.

Another thing I wonder is what Izzy's building in Salamnca? If it was another archer we'd have seen it already. If it's an axe it will be due about the same time as growth occurs. Lets hope its a work boat.

Here's something bad that could happen. We move the archer N in an attempt to draw an attack from Izzy's archer. Izzy completes her axe in Salamanca who promptly kills the worker that is building the road SE of the city. If moving the archer N is the right move (it's the one I feel best about) then the worker will have to stop building the road. This reminds me, you're right about irrigating the river plains, mining the plains hill would be a much better move.

Another possibility: The worker is the prize she's after with her archer, then unfortifying our archer would be a bad move. But I still think moving it is the right move, her archer would then have to get in the open to get the worker, giving our Drill II archer great odds to pick it off.

We can have the sword that is fortified in Ozaka and the new sword from RS on the same tile as the archer in 3 turns. This will leave us with the axe & wounded sword to defend against the N archers, with another sword able to help out in 5 turns.

Which is not a lot. And Izzy's archer can reach Salamanca in 2 turns. I don't think we should rush into an attack.

Dealing with the archer NE of Salamanca archer is a little trickier. My 1st thought was to move the axe off of the hill toward it trying to draw it into an attack. Down side is if the archer heads straight for Salamanca we'll never catch it. It would also take him off of the road and make him one turn off of being able to help defending our improvements. Idea #2 is to move the archer SE of Salamnca 1N in hopes the AI will see this territorial invasion as a prospective attack and force the archer to attack from across the river. If the archer then moves to the forest in an attempt to reach Salamanca he'll be able to take a shot at him. It would be our Drill II archer vs. an unpromoted archer in a forest. I'm not sure how to figure the first strikes, but I don't think it will be great odds of winning (although better than a prayer - 40% maybe). The archer is, however, the only unit with a chance to attack the archer before it can reach Salamanca.

True. But Drill II isn't all that good, unfortunately. I went through part of the SDK this weekend, and there is a bug that prevents the first "first strike chance" from ever materializing. (The bug is the oldest programming error in the world - argument range off by 1. Interestingly, the in-game "odds" calculation is preformed independently and does it right.)
So a Drill II archer has two first strikes more than a plain archer. Each first strike gives a free shot at the usual combat odds with the usual damage.

For example: attacking Izzy's archer in the forest, we attack at A=3, she defends at D=4.5, so the per-round odds are A/(A+D) = 3/7.5 = 40% for us. Damage done is 20 * (3*A+D)/(A+3*D) = 20 * 13.5/16.5 = 16 for us, and 24 for Izzy, meaning we have 5 lives, and Izzy has 7. Clearly, the deck is stacked against us. The game claims that our odds of winning are 14% - so it should be less in reality.

Things are better if combat is played out in the open. Then the per-round odds are exactly 50-50 (whoever attacks), and damage done is 20 for each. The game claims 60% win chance for us, due to the free strikes.

All in all, I think moving our archer is pointless (Izzy will walk into Salamanca anyway) and even dangerous.

Another thing I wonder is what Izzy's building in Salamnca? If it was another archer we'd have seen it already. If it's an axe it will be due about the same time as growth occurs. Lets hope its a work boat. in 12or 13 turns, she has gained some 25 :hammers:, so maybe she'll have an archer next turn. Of course it could be something else, like you say. We should move that worker to safety as soon as he finishes the road.

Roster:

* Methos - Warming up
* Niklas
* Marc Aurel
* dojoboy - Just Played
* McLMan - UP!
* zyxy - On Deck!

@dojoboy: Thanks for the roster, I forget at times. :blush:

25 :hammers: is the cost of an archer on Normal speed, but on Epic it's 37. So at 2 :hammers:/t in Salamanca, building an archer takes 19 turns.

Regarding the possible strike on Salamanca, I'm certainly tempted. The first archer will defend at 3.0 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.25) = 5.25. A sword with C1 and CR1 will attack at 6 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.2) = 8.4, which means the odds are 61.5% in our favor each round. Damage per round is 20 * 30.45/24.15 = 25(!) for us and 15 for Izzy, giving us 7 lives but only 4 to Izzy. Doing some quick (;)) negative binomial distribution calculations, we end up with a 95.5% chance to win, 94% when the first strike of the defender is also counted.

A second sword would have even better odds against a second archer, which will not have been fortified as long. Are these odds not good enough to chance an attack with two swords, and possibly an archer as backup? I would think they are.


Btw, I'm working on an Excel calculator for win probabilities. Right now it can give the correct numbers if first strikes are not counted. I know how to account for the first strikes on paper, but to get that done in Excel is a bit messy.

@zyxy: I didn't quite follow your discussion regarding the bug. What is it that can never happen, and how does it really work?

25 :hammers: is the cost of an archer on Normal speed, but on Epic it's 37. So at 2 :hammers:/t in Salamanca, building an archer takes 19 turns. :hammer2: good catch!

Regarding the possible strike on Salamanca, I'm certainly tempted. The first archer will defend at 3.0 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.25) = 5.25. A sword with C1 and CR1 will attack at 6 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.2) = 8.4, which means the odds are 61.5% in our favor each round. Damage per round is 20 * 30.45/24.15 = 25(!) for us and 15 for Izzy, giving us 7 lives but only 4 to Izzy. Doing some quick (;)) negative binomial distribution calculations, we end up with a 95.5% chance to win, 94% when the first strike of the defender is also counted.

Not quite right I think. The CR bonus is subtracted from the archer bonus, so the attack value is A = 6 * (1+0.1) = 6.6, and the defense value is D = (1+0.25+0.5-0.3)*3 = 4.35. The odds remain at about 60% though. I'm not sure if we'll get to 24 or 25 damage...

A second sword would have even better odds against a second archer, which will not have been fortified as long. Are these odds not good enough to chance an attack with two swords, and possibly an archer as backup? I would think they are.

Perhaps. I would rather have some more backup, just in case, but it is tempting.


@zyxy: I didn't quite follow your discussion regarding the bug. What is it that can never happen, and how does it really work?

Well, I wasn't really clear. Warning: what follows is a lenghty discussion that has little to do with the current game.

If you want to check for yourself, the relevant code is in the CvUnit.cpp file of the SDK. I forgot the name of the function, but it probably has "FirstStrike" in the title somewhere.

Anyway, there are "First Strikes" and "First Strike Chances". For example, archers start with a single "First Strike", the Drill I promo gives a "First Strike Chance", etc. A First Strike simply gives you a free shot, or to put it better, the unit with the most First Strikes will receive as many free shots as the difference.

Prior to each combat, the First Strike Chances of any unit involved are translated into additional First Strikes, by drawing a random number that will determine the number of these "additional" First Strikes. As an aside, unlike what has been suggested here and there, you do not get a 50% chance for each First Strike Chance to turn into a First Strike. That would result in a binomial distribution for the number of additional first strikes. Rather, the number of additional first strikes is uniformly distributed.

Supposedly, if you have N First Strike Chances, then you would expect to get anywhere between 0 and N (inclusive on both ends) First Strikes as a result. This is a list of N + 1 numbers. Unfortunately, the code draws a random number from a set of N numbers. This means the last first Strike Chance will never be realized!

The details of the random number generator are in the file CvRandom.cpp. The "seed" is represented by a short int. The random number generator is called with an integer argument k. It then updates the seed and returns seed*k/(MAXSHORTINT+1), that is, a whole number in the range 0...(k-1). This should have been called with k=N+1, but it is called with k=N.

Not quite right I think. The CR bonus is subtracted from the archer bonus, so the attack value is A = 6 * (1+0.1) = 6.6, and the defense value is D = (1+0.25+0.5-0.3)*3 = 4.35. The odds remain at about 60% though. I'm not sure if we'll get to 24 or 25 damage...Aha, thanks for those clarifications, I had forgotten about the subtraction part. Unfortunately the difference in calculation is enough to drop our damage to 24, we'd need to drop the archer to D = 4.20 to get 25. This of course has large implications on our win probability, dropping it to 87.8% with the freeshot. Still fairly good, but much more of a risk-taking.

Anyway, there are "First Strikes" and "First Strike Chances". For example, archers start with a single "First Strike", the Drill I promo gives a "First Strike Chance", etc. A First Strike simply gives you a free shot, or to put it better, the unit with the most First Strikes will receive as many free shots as the difference.
Ah, thanks for the explanation, and regarding the bug too. Oldest error in the book :wallbash:. I assume you filed a bug report?

The fact that number of first strikes are chosen at random makes my Excel probability calculations that much more complex though. I'll have to finish my spreadsheet tomorrow. :sleep:

My apologies that I haven't been participating in the discussion, but until I finish my work for my C++ class tomorrow night I don't have the time. Sorry. After class I'll get caught up if you haven't already continued on.

Turn 0) 85 BC
MC 136/1008
Disband workboat in Smurkyotos (now at -20 gpt)
Ozaka Sword moves toward Salamanca.

IT
As expected, the archer moves to the forest NE of Salamanca
Archer NE of Ozaka crosses river into our territory on the plains tile.
Salamanca grows to size 2.

Turn 1) 70 BC
MC 214/1008
Give wounded sword cover promotion & attack invading archer.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/McLMan/SGOTM-02/Turnset%202/000WoundedOdds.jpg
Sword wins a close one & is able to move one tile toward Ozaka to heal.
Axe moves to gem mine.
Izzys archer has caused our worker SE of Salamanca to stop building the road. Tell him not to worry about it and continue.
Move archer near Toledo to the forested hill S of the city to see if there's a worker within view.

IT
Izzy's archer ends his journey in Salamanca.
RS: Sword -> Axe

Turn 2) 55 BC
MC 292/1008
Axe fortifies on Gems.
Wounded Sword to Ozaka to heal (4 turns).
2 Swords and Archer now in position SE of Salamanca.
Move archer near Toledo E of the city, still sees nothing.

IT
A Spanish archer attacks our archer from Toledo & kills him. :(
Izzy's archer in the North heads back North and disappears into the fog.

Turn 3) 40 BC
MC 370/1008
Road to Salamanca is complete & worker moves to plains hill.
Hesitate for a while, look at Salamanca odds (67% w/o promotion) vs. CG-I archer with an unpromoted back-up and decide to go for it. Then I consider promoting the sword to Cover but decide CR-I will be better for us down the road. And so begins the attack on Salamanca.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/McLMan/SGOTM-02/Turnset%202/001sworddestroys.jpg
2nd sword shows 93.7% odds vs. unpromoted archer without any promotions. Save the promotion for healing and attack.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/McLMan/SGOTM-02/Turnset%202/002salamncawin.jpg
Our sword wins without taking any damage.

IT
zzzzzzzz

Turn 4) 25 BC
MC 448/1008
Worker begins mining the plains hill.
Archer moves to Smurkz Can! and fortifies.
Wounded Sword moves to RS to heal
Healthy Sword heads N
(Izzy no longer refuses to talk)

IT
RS Grows
Barbarian Archer (Combat I) moves out of Apache and into view SW of the plains hill near RS.
Ozaka Sword -> Axe

Turn 5) 10 BC
MC 521/1008
Wounded Sword in RS promoted to CRII and begins to heal (3 Turns)

IT
Barb archer attacks our Guerilla II archer and dies.
Smurkz Can! comes out of resistance and begins building a workboat.

Turn 6) 5 AD
MC 599/1008

IT
Archer comes out of fog NW of Toledo

Turn 7) 20 AD
Cottage finished, worker moves to rice.
Our swords begin to form a band on the cottage.

IT
Spanish archer moves to the FP on the other side of the river, in our territory. A 2nd archer is right behind him.

Turn 8) 35 AD
MC 759/1008
Fortifying swords E of Ozaka. We're now able to hit anything that crosses the river.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/McLMan/SGOTM-02/Turnset%202/003archertrail.jpg
Sword is healed in RS, he and the new axe head toward Ozaka.
Move a sword into Spanish territory W of Toledo to do some recon that's been missing since I lost the archer.

IT
Ozaka: Axe -> Palace
Izzy's archers advance single file, the one from FP moves to the plains road on our side of the river.
Confucianism spreads in Smurkz Can!

Turn 9) 50 AD
Attack archer on Plains with a sword and win without taking damage.
Sword moves SW of Toledo and takes a look ...
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/McLMan/SGOTM-02/Turnset%202/004toledo.jpg

I'm going to stop here because we're at a crossroads. I waited to start the Palace because I felt we needed the Axe worse at the moment, but now I think is the right time to build it. We're back to a respectable size military, and RS is producing units at a nice clip. The argument could also be made to produce one or two more units out of Ozaka before building the Palace. Either way I think it needs to be discussed. We have enough units to clean up the next archer in the line & move on Toledo. The more I looked at it, the more it looked like a candidate to keep. What do you think?

*****Link to the Save***** (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Smurkz_SG002_AD0050_01.Civ4SavedGame)

Here is your Session Turn Log from 85 BC to 50 AD:


Turn 162, 70 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman (5.08) vs Isabella's Archer (2.60)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Combat Odds: 93.8%
Turn 162, 70 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 162, 70 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 162, 70 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 13 (64/100HP)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 13 (51/100HP)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 13 (38/100HP)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 162, 70 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman has defeated Isabella's Archer!
Turn 162, 70 BC: Nabu-rimanni has been born in a far away land!

Turn 163, 55 BC: Isabella's Archer (3.00) vs Smurkz's Archer (3.00)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Combat Odds: 50.0%
Turn 163, 55 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Isabella's Archer has defeated Smurkz's Archer!

Turn 164, 40 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Archer (4.95)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Combat Odds: 73.4%
Turn 164, 40 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 164, 40 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 164, 40 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 164, 40 BC: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman has defeated Isabella's Archer!
Turn 164, 40 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Archer (4.20)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Combat Odds: 93.7%
Turn 164, 40 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 164, 40 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 164, 40 BC: (City Attack: -10%)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Smurkz's Swordsman has defeated Isabella's Archer!
Turn 164, 40 BC: You have captured Salamanca!!!

Turn 166, 10 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.30) vs Smurkz's Archer (6.75)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Combat Odds: 0.8%
Turn 166, 10 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 166, 10 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 166, 10 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 166, 10 BC: (Hills: +75%)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Smurkz's Archer is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Smurkz's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 168, 20 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!

Turn 169, 35 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!
Turn 169, 35 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!
Turn 169, 35 AD: Confucianism has spread in Smurkz Can!.

Turn 170, 50 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!
Turn 170, 50 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Ozaka!
Turn 170, 50 AD: Smurkz's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Archer (3.30)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Combat Odds: 98.7%
Turn 170, 50 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 170, 50 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Smurkz's Swordsman has defeated Isabella's Archer!
Turn 170, 50 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Archer!

You may wish to copy it to Notepad for reference when you write your turn set post. It includes any entries you added with the in-game Chat facility

God bless you McLMan! :religion:


I'm going to stop here because we're at a crossroads. I waited to start the Palace because I felt we needed the Axe worse at the moment, but now I think is the right time to build it. We're back to a respectable size military, and RS is producing units at a nice clip. The argument could also be made to produce one or two more units out of Ozaka before building the Palace. Either way I think it needs to be discussed. We have enough units to clean up the next archer in the line & move on Toledo. The more I looked at it, the more it looked like a candidate to keep. What do you think?

Exponentially, the Palace is going to have a greater effect on our success. Losing the war to Izzy isn't likely. So, can we capture Toledo and Cordoba while building the Palace? I believe we can as loong as we focus on one city at time, with Toledo being next. But, I would feel better building one more unit before starting the Palace.

Truly a solid turnset, well played! :goodjob:

I'm glad you went for Salamanca, and even more glad that the RNG went our way this time. The fight against the first archer could just as well have been lost, we were one strike from losing it! :eek: I guess the RNG gods wanted to compensate us for how they treated dojoboy :rolleyes:

I agree with dojoboy's analysis. It feels like the war is rolling our way now, and we're not likely to lose it with the units we have now. If we focus first on Toledo we could take it with what we have now. We're also not likely to lose too many units there, and adding the units that will come from RS we should also have enough to press on towards the north. My vote is palace right away.

Roster:
Methos - On Deck!
Niklas - Warming up
dojoboy
McLMan - Just Played
zyxy - UP!
Marc Aurel - on the move


@zyxy: Let's start up the strategy posts again, shall we? You go first. :)

You lucky b...!! No really, well done!

Unfortunately I will be away this weekend, and unable to play until Sunday eve. Methos, would you like to swap?

I agree with the general plan to attack Toledo, and then Cordoba. For Toledo, a mix of swords and axes shold work very well (first a sword hits the archer, then an axe against the spear.)

I think we should not keep Toledo, for two reasons. The first is that we probably want the palace finished before gaining anymore towns. The second and most important is that refounding Toledo one tile west will give it two more FP's to work. One of those is in the overlap with Ozaka, but still, this makes the difference between a good and an excellent town IMO. I think RS could do a settler after its current build, it should take only about 10 turns. (RS will grow to size 6 and can then use the mined plains hill to raise the sum of production and food surplus to 15.)

Some detailed comments:

Research to Machinery I think. Izzy will not pay for peace yet, but she'll probably give us at least Sailing after we take Toledo and/or Cordoba.
Smurkyotos: should switch a citizen to scientist. Growing this town any more is a bad idea, as it will starve immediately. (This will even get worse when the palace moves.)
Ozaka: maybe switch it from Iron Hill or Gold Hill to FP for growth? It will delay the palace some, but generate more gold later on.
I would stop the worker on the rice and have him chop some forests.
SC: workboat is a good idea, after that maybe a granary? Perhaps switch to plains forest for faster production? The food would be regained partially because the clams would become available sooner:
If we stay the course then SC will grow in 13 turns. Placing the second citizen on another grass forest we finish the boat in 18 turns, with 11 food in the box and 2 overflow hammers.
If we switch to the plains forest then the WB will finish in 13 turns. Working the clams we then grow in another 3 turns. Second citizen to forest, then at turn 18 we'll have 8 food in the box, 7 hammers in the bin and 10 additional gold.
I think the second scenario is slightly better (the food deficit will be made up more or less by an earlier finish of the granary), but not by much.
Btw, SC will get its culture expansion automagically in 15 turns, and this will make the iron tile available.

I think we should not keep Toledo, for two reasons. The first is that we probably want the palace finished before gaining anymore towns.

Why? Maintenance?

The second and most important is that refounding Toledo one tile west will give it two more FP's to work. One of those is in the overlap with Ozaka, but still, this makes the difference between a good and an excellent town IMO.

A side point to this is a more productive settlement location could be chosen east of the new "Toledo" as well.

Unfortunately I will be away this weekend, and unable to play until Sunday eve. Methos, would you like to swap?

Sure, I’ll take it. I won’t be able to look at the save until tomorrow morning though, so everyone can go ahead and start the discussion without me until then.

Why? Maintenance?

Yes.

A side point to this is a more productive settlement location could be chosen east of the new "Toledo" as well.

where would you put it? Btw, it looks like Izzy has founded a town there as well....

"New Toledo" would have access to 3 FP's, whereas Toledo has only 1. (The other tile differences are not so important.) This means new Toledo can grow faster and support 8 cottaged plains, vs 6 for Toledo. OTOH, Toledo gets a head start as it will probably be at size 2, has expanded borders, and immediate access to the sheep. So the choice is perhaps not so clear after all...

Minor point: I would move the axe on the gems mine with the invasion force (because of its CR promo), and send one of the unpromoted axes north (he can perhaps get combat II, or shock, or cover - CR is not so useful for skirmishing :D). If the axe moves this turn, the Toledo attack is not delayed.

I got a meta-idea that I'm going to try out, to try to improve on the problem we have with detail flooding turning into noise after a while. Feedback appreciated, both on the idea as such and how well I manage to meet the goals in this particular post.

Here goes: This post contains a semi-long discussion on the relative merits of keeping or razing Toledo. Since I a) doubt that everyone will find all my reasoning interesting, or maybe simply won't have time to read it all (the detail noise problem), and b) that this will be interesting to read at most once, I will end the post with a section where I formulate the gist of it, in a concise manner. That way if you don't feel like reading through it all, or if you want to come back later to see what I really said, just skip to that section.

However, I still encourage you to read all of it. It will certainly put you more in touch with the game, and, as zyxy was seeking, will make you more able to make better choices if you find yourself in a situation different from what we've discussed.

"New Toledo" would have access to 3 FP's, whereas Toledo has only 1. (The other tile differences are not so important.) This means new Toledo can grow faster and support 8 cottaged plains, vs 6 for Toledo. OTOH, Toledo gets a head start as it will probably be at size 2, has expanded borders, and immediate access to the sheep. So the choice is perhaps not so clear after all...
Will a conquered town really have expanded borders after we have captured it? :hmm:

In any case, I'm really torn between razing and keeping.
If we keep it, it can start developing earlier and we don't need to spend a lot of production and growth in RS for a settler. This means RS can focus on building more units for the push north later. The downside is that it will cost us probably some 15-ish :gold:/t in maintenance until the palace is built, which could roughly mean somewhere in the 200 :commerce: vicinity that could have gone to faster early research. For the earlier development to pay off, we would have to work quite a few cottages quite some turns earlier than in the other scenario.

On the other hand, if we raze and replace it, we get a town that is better placed. It gets immediate access to two FPs and a third after one border expansion. It will also have access to a plains hill for fast production if we need it. The downside is, as zyxy notes, that we won't have immediate access to the sheep for fast growth (though of course they would have to be pastured to be useful in any case).

I find it really hard to assess the values of each of these scenarios, there are simply too many factors involved. We would need to do a thorough analysis of growth and development for the two alternatives to see what the differences are in terms of commerce gained or lost. I'm not sure doing that would be worth the cost investment.

The two main factors that I think we should balance are the higher maintenance costs vs the settler production in RS, as my gut feeling tells me that the commerce output from the town will be fairly close in both versions. If we capture the town we won't need a settler, freeing RS to build units, thus speeding our further expansion. If we raze it we won't incur the large maintenance penalty for a large number of turns.

There is one other option that we haven't discussed yet, which is to simply wait with capturing it until the palace is complete. That way we wouldn't need a settler, and wouldn't incur any penalty. However, in this scenario we wouldn't have the benefit of having the town earlier, for working the sheep and FPs faster. This means that the relative gain of not having to build a settler instead must be weighed against the loss of commerce from having the town not optimally placed, in which case I think building the settler is preferable. Thus I don't think this is a good strategy, but I wanted to mention it.

Conclusions:
I'm leaning towards razing Toledo and building a settler in RS. The maintenance penalty we will incur over a number of turns (before the palace is built) is massive (200+ :commerce: ), and the cost of building a settler seems small in comparison, even if it delays the strike on Cordoba a bit. The site W of Toledo is sure to win out in the very long run, and we've got a long game ahead of us.

Will a conquered town really have expanded borders after we have captured it? :hmm:

ummm, no, probably not. But it would grow back because of the religion, I think?

Ah right, the Buddhism will of course stay put. However, I would be surprised if Confucianism wouldn't spread fast to our new town, it didn't take long to reach SC.

Regarding the battle for Toledo:

The archer will be a tough one to crack. It has CD1+2 and sits behind walls. The reported town defense bonus of Toledo is 50% (which I find weird, if that's the wall then where did the 20% from a cultural expansion go)? The archer will then have a total defense modifier of 2.70 (i.e. a bonus of 170%). A sword will always attack a town at 6.6, which is exactly 2.20 times the base strength of the archer. To make the odds in our favor we'd thus need to have total bonuses of at least 0.55.

Luckily we have swords with just those numbers, having C1 (10%), CR1 (20%) and Cover (25%) or CR2 (25%). They will have a 57.6% chance of winning (free strike counted). Certainly no perfect odds, but way better than if the archer would be the stronger by the same margin.

An axe (C1, CR2) against a spear with no promos would have 91.2% chance of winning (unit-specific bonuses are added to the attacker, right?). We probably need only one then. A sword would have 79.6% chance.

If it were me, I would bring one axe and the three experienced swords. The axe for the spear, one sword for the archer, another for mopping up the archer if the first loses, and a third to take out any unit that might be built while we advance. Possibly one more backup if things go really sour.

Thought #1
@ Niklas - Nice idea with the post format. I am, however, pro-noise. Admittedly I sometimes need to read them (noisy spots) more than once when they get too deep into the negative bipolar intuition. :crazyeye: As an engineering student I went through a different branch of the mathematics tree so I'm always happy to see something that makes differential equations look completely practical! [/statistics joke] Seriously though I like it, it makes me think outside of what I'm used to.

Concise Thought #1 - Bring the Noise

Thought #2
I don't mean to be all over the place (he says as he bobs and weaves), it's just that somebody's comment sparks a different idea and I end up looking 180 degrees from where I originally was. from where I sit, keeping it or not really depends on the "2nd tier" issue. What do we want out of this city? Doing some really quick math (addition :eek: ), it looks like moving it would make it the 2nd best commerce site on the continent (Ozaka being 1st). That would mean razing it and settling West as we all basically agreed it should be when Izzy 1st founded it. I think it's important to start a good economic foundation early in this game, even if it's at the expense of early production because I feel that later we're going to be looking at keeping cities based on what they can build us that can get to the front and kill something as quickly as possible. This coupled with the 200g Niklas found makes razing it the best decision in my opinion.

Concise Thought#2
Raze Toledo = more money = bye bye Toledo

I'm glad somebody noticed the noise. Sheesh, this place is loud. ;)

Niklas' take on razing Toledo makes sense. If we have a settler ready to go, as it's captured and razed, we'll actually have an advantage because our new Toledo will have wider borders thatn if we kept it. It'd take several turns for TOLEDO to come out of resistance. New Toledo would be productive from the second it was built.

I couldn't load the save at school. For some reason, I was getting a load error with it - probably occured during the d/l - damn firewall. I get blocked clicking on the link, and if I save link file I get the error. I'll grab it tomorrow when I bring my laptop home.

The archer will be a tough one to crack. It has CD1+2 and sits behind walls. The reported town defense bonus of Toledo is 50% (which I find weird, if that's the wall then where did the 20% from a cultural expansion go)?

The city defense bonus is the maximum of cultural defense and man-made defense (walls, castle).


Luckily we have swords with just those numbers, having C1 (10%), CR1 (20%) and Cover (25%) or CR2 (25%). They will have a 57.6% chance of winning (free strike counted). Certainly no perfect odds, but way better than if the archer would be the stronger by the same margin. To add some more noise, I would attack with the Cover-CR1 sword first, because the CR2 sword is a bit more valuable IMO - as it can get to the valuable CR3 promo more easily.

An axe (C1, CR2) against a spear with no promos would have 91.2% chance of winning (unit-specific bonuses are added to the attacker, right?). We probably need only one then. A sword would have 79.6% chance.
We don't have a CR2 axe :confused:.
EDIT: forgot to factor in the fortification of the spear. Calculations below are changed.
The only bonusses added to the attacker are the combat promotions. Everything else is adjusted on the defenders side. So this would mean that a C1,CR1 axe attacks at 5.5, and the Melee bonus and CR1 bonus go to the other side, so that the spear defends at 4*(1 + 0.5 - 0.5 - 0.2+0.25) = 4.4. Should be a win. In fact, there is some risk that the archer would be selected as best defender if it didn't die before. So perhaps bring two axes.

If it were me, I would bring one axe and the three experienced swords. The axe for the spear, one sword for the archer, another for mopping up the archer if the first loses, and a third to take out any unit that might be built while we advance. Possibly one more backup if things go really sour. Four units should be enough really, although I would rather bring another axe if we can spare it. Even though our chances of winning straight away against the archer are low, we will most likely be able to wound it heavily, and our chances of winning the second combat against this guy should be really high.

The city defense bonus is the maximum of cultural defense and man-made defense (walls, castle).Ah, cool, then it all makes sense for once! :crazyeye:

To add some more noise, I would attack with the Cover-CR1 sword first, because the CR2 sword is a bit more valuable IMO - as it can get to the valuable CR3 promo more easily.Agreed!


We don't have a CR2 axe :confused:.Right, I was thinking we had one that could be upgraded, but I see that I was wrong. :hammer2:

The only bonusses added to the attacker are the combat promotions. Everything else is adjusted on the defenders side. So this would mean that a C1,CR1 axe attacks at 5.5, and the Melee bonus and CR1 bonus go to the other side, so that the spear defends at 4*(1 + 0.5 - 0.5 - 0.2) = 3.2. Should be a sure win. In fact, there is some risk that the archer would be selected as best defender if it didn't die before. So perhaps bring two axes.Aha, I thought it was the special city attack bonus of the sword that brought it to 6.6, not the combat modifier. That suddenly makes combat a lot better than it's mere 10% give at hand. :)
But I must admit that I find it somewhat surprising, I though the combat system was geered up for the defender. Say you attack a town with no defense bonus with your axe, and the town contains an unfortified spear with no special bonuses. Say also that your axe has Shock and CR3. That would then make the spear defend at 4 * (1 - 0.5 - 0.25 - 0.75) = -2!?? :confused:

Four units should be enough really, although I would rather bring another axe if we can spare it. Even though our chances of winning straight away against the archer are low, we will most likely be able to wound it heavily, and our chances of winning the second combat against this guy should be really high.That's what I'm thinking too, so I really think four will be enough.

But I must admit that I find it somewhat surprising, I though the combat system was geered up for the defender. Say you attack a town with no defense bonus with your axe, and the town contains an unfortified spear with no special bonuses. Say also that your axe has Shock and CR3. That would then make the spear defend at 4 * (1 - 0.5 - 0.25 - 0.75) = -2!?? :confused:

Yeah, then you win by default and get a free cookie ;)...
No, if the defender bonus turn negative then the defender strength is multiplied by 1/(1-bonus).

Okay, I’m having trouble getting my head into your all’s thoughts. Granted, I only had three hours of sleep, so that’s probably the culprit! ;)

First off, send one of the un-promoted axes to the gems and send the current gems axe (C1/CR2) towards Toledo.

The s/man near Toledo will stay in his current spot until the rest of our force gets near Toledo, than he’ll move 1N. This way he keeps the +25% :strength: bonus from attacking across the river.

The C1 s/man, and C1/CR1&2 s/man will head to the tile 1W of Toledo.

Okay, this isn't working, so let's try it this way instead:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/54475/SGOTM2_Toledo_Plans.JPG

Light Green- Axe men (C1/CR1) Turn 0 begins moving.

Light Blue- S/man (C1/CR1&2) Begins moving on Turn 1.

Pink- S/man (C1) Begins moving on Turn 1.

Orange- Axe (C1) Begins moving on Turn 1.

Yellow- On Turn 2 moves N.

This will bring us 3 s/man (C1, C1/CR1&2, C1/CR1/Cover1) and 1 axe (C1/CR1) to Toledo and able to attack on Turn 3. Is this correct?

Note: The arrow is will that unit will end up on that turn.

When the axe is complete in RS (4 turns) she’ll start on a settler.

Looks good, very informative picture! :thumbsup:
Don't forget Izzy's archer though, but the fourth sword should be able to handle that just fine.

I looked the game over again, and I have some MMing comments in the middle of the war :crazyeye::
As zyxy noted, we don't want Smurkyotos to grow any more, and hiring a scientist will thus cost us nothing (but will of course gain us commerce and :gp: points).
Ozaka should IMO switch from working the gold to the FP cottage. That will make Ozaka grow in 4, and during those turns we will lose 12 :hammers: and 12 :commerce: (remember cottages always count as 4 :commerce:/t). After those turns we will be working both the gold and the cottage for substantial :commerce: gains. The extra :commerce: will be 4/t for the remaining 12 turns that it would have taken to grow, i.e. the net gain is (48-12=) 36 total. We're delaying the palace one turn by doing so, but that will never cost us as much as 36 :commerce:.
As zyxy also noted, switch the citizen in SC to a plains forest to speed up the WB, we will get back the lost food from the clams that will be improved faster.
The worker on the rice should go chop forests to speed up the palace. The one 2S of Ozaka is almost done, and there are at least two up NW of Ozaka that we could also use.


I would like to see a strategy post from you before you play. You've done them before, haven't you? :)

I would like to see a strategy post from you before you play. You've done them before, haven't you? :)

Yeah, I've done them :D . We're (wife and I) are going out for a little while tonight, so I'll either post it late tonight or early tomorrow morning. I'll play sometime tomorrow afternoon or evening.

Legend:
A1 = Axe men with (C1)
A2 = Axe men with (C1/CR1)
S1 = Swordsmen with (C1)
S2 = Swordsmen with (C1/CR1/CV1)
S3 = Swordsmen with (C1/CR1&2)

Turn 0: A2 on gems begins moving towards Toledo. Our worker stops his work on the rice.
S/otos: Hire a scientist.
Ozaka: Switch the citizen from the gold to the fp cottage.
SC: Switch the citizen to the plains forest.

Turn 1: S1 and S3 begins moving towards Toledo. A1 begins moving towards the Gem tile. The worker moves to one of the pre-chopped forest. (Need to look and see which ones are pre-chopped, I've forgotten).

Turn 2: A2, S1, and S3 arrives adjacent to Toledo (no movement left). S2 moves one tile north.

Turn 3: We attack Toledo! A1 arrives on the Gem tile and fortifies.
IT- Metal Casting>Machinery

Turn 4:
Ozaka: She grows and adds the gold tile to her list of worked tiles.
IT- RS completes Axe and begins a settler.

After Toledo I'm unsure what our next plans are.

Okay, found it on page 19 in my notes, zyxy pre-chopped the forest on the hill tile 2S of Ozaka (I believe Niklas mentioned this above, but I wanted to check for sure).

Do we have any other pre-chops setup? I know one of them was accidentally chopped.

After Toledo I'm unsure what our next plans are.

After Toledo is razed:

(1) build New Toledo
(2) check w/ Izzy, see what she's willing to yield before losing Cordoba
(3) compile a force to capture Cordoba, maybe sneak a unit up there ASAP to scout her garrison.
(4) The barb settlement should become a priority soon, but may have to wait a bit before we can handle the additional maintenance.

Since our aim is conquest, how do we manage research and maintenance while not building marketplaces, etc.? Civics? Trade w/ rivals we're not at war w/ at a particular moment?

Since our aim is conquest, how do we manage research and maintenance while not building marketplaces, etc.? Civics? Trade w/ rivals we're not at war w/ at a particular moment?

One method I've heard used is having weak towns build only barracks and courthouses and hiring out merchant specialists while using the civic Caste System. Though this is primarily for those going for a Domination victory.

Yes a rax and courthouse will be all that's needed in most of our towns. War weariness will be so great that we're going to end up starving our larger cities. So we might as well plan on having low population.