Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 2 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4354542) for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

This game will be played in Civ4, patched to v1.61.

You are cast in the role of Tokugawa, mighty leader of the Japanese. Tokugawa's brother has left the island city of Kyoto to avenge the death of his wife and only son. He has travelled to a distant land without finding their murderer. So the brother of Tokugawa will settle and found a new Japanese colony, and the Japanese have sworn to conquer the rest of civilization in order to hunt down and destroy their enemy.

The game is on a Standard size fractal map, modified as only Gyathaar knows how, at Epic speed. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the fastest teams to achieve a Conquest victory. The number of AI rivals has not yet been revealed. It will be played using version 1.61 of Civ4 with locked modified assets.

Individual start files for all teams will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of August 8th.

Here's the start position.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/SGOTM02_start.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Tokugawa of Japan
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Fractal, hand modified
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - YES!
Barbarians - Raging!!

Please visit the following link to ensure that you are adequately prepared:
Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439)

Notes:

A. ONLY Civilization IV v1.61 is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - victory will be awarded for the fastest victory by Conquest.

C. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

I'm sure you'll enjoy this game :D

Snaproll, checking in!

Rats - not the first here. But, here are my very early views ... we are playing a SG Chaos game where the pranksters have a lot of fun with worldbuilder (giving the barbarians battleships for one). Anyway, they gave us a city right down on the southern border. It started in revolt so wasn't costing us anything. As soon as it came out of revolt, it was costing us 9 gold and our tech went from 100% to 40%. This will be a problem for SGOTM II as soon as we found our second city and will get much much worse with each city (distance maintenance will be a killer).

So, we will need to move our capital(!) prior to building our 3rd city.

Zalson, reporting as enlisted.

Hopefully the two aren't that far away, indeed. As for where to place the capital, I think it really depends on, of course what we all have around us. Right now, sending it over to the plains tile to grab the fish and rice for fast growth, and keeping the floodplain viable, seems like a good idea. However, my civ skills are a little bit rusty... but the end of the order should let me warm up a little bit... oh, and get my damn computer fixed!

Dear Ms. Beyond,

Your humble servant Compromise checking in.

I was deeply saddened to learn of the tragic death of your (Tokugawa's) brother (I assume that Ms. Beyond is just a codename). I trust that sweet vengeance will soon be yours. I endeavor to help you as much as my poor skills enable.

From the information you've sent thus far, I have the following comments:

Your capital--Kyoto--is well suited to become a beacon of slavery. It appears to be built on a plains hill, given that it is set to grow in 17 turns and can produce a workboat in a mere 23 turns.

I recommend that the city be placed on "high food" and "high commerce". I recommend the following build order: workboat (to fish), warrior, workboat (to crabs), workboat (to fish), workboat (to crabs). Building the workboat first and sending it to the fish will enable maximum growth (and therefore max commerce) as quickly as possible. The warrior prevents a no-military unhappiness penalty from affecting the city. Going to the crabs next removes a health penalty.

Once reaching size 5 in Kyoto, however, I recommend setting the city to "don't grow." No sense supporting unhappy citizens. The exception is when we have a building we plan to queue up and poprush, such as the library we'll want as soon as possible. Then, I think we'll want to whip that to completion on the second turn of production, while still leaving as many people as possible working the coast for commerce. We can discuss more micromanagement as the time approaches.

Concerning the second city.... We've essentially got two disconnected empires here. It'll be a while before the resources from one are available to the other. Also, I took the liberty of cropping the minimap out of one of the screenshots. I then zoomed in on that so I could see individual pixels. I have calculated that each square on the real map is just about 3 pixels on the minimap. This means that the second settler is 37 horizontal and 4 vertical squares away from Kyoto. A quick worldbuilder test reveals that the maintenance cost for this city as soon as we place it will be 7 gold-per-turn (gpt)!!!

Using worldbuilder, the first barbarian animals are likely to appear in the interturn between 3850 and 3820BC. The first barbarian troops should appear in the interturn between 2650 and 2620BC. In 2260, and perhaps before, barbarian troops will move toward cities. Settlers *can* pop barbarians from huts!!!

I recommend the following, perhaps bizarre, opening set of actions: use the settler and the warrior to explore while researching archery!!! On the turn that Archery is discovered, found the city and make the first build an archer.

It would be great if we could find a good city spot on a plains hill for the extra hammer and hill defense. In a normal situation, I'd recommend just moving the settler one tile northwest (NW) from its current position and settling there, but given the huge gpt hit that founding the city will incur, I recommend the delay.

Obviously, we'll want the settler to be safe from 2-move barbarian animals by 2650BC and no hut popping by the settler before then, but we can get some good exploring done in those few years.

The next set of moves is a bit constrained by what is discovered, but I'd likely recommend researching pottery, mining/bronze, and writing before anything else. Writing is for a library in Kyoto; bronze is for enabling poprushing, pottery is to make our cities worthwhile. Second build in the new city (Osaka is it?) should probably be a worker. Then maybe a barracks, but we're getting ahead of ourselves a little bit.

Just some thoughts.

In your service,
Compromise

Dear Ms. Beyond,

I also wanted to mention some thoughts I have about how frequently to question we advisors of yours (i.e.: how long should the turnsets be).

I read through a bit of Team Peanut and Team CFL's SGOTM1 reports. One of the striking things about those reports is how often someone made a decision of critical impact to the team with little input from the team just because it was their set of turns to run. Most succession games (SG's) that I've seen set it up so that the first few turnsets are very long compared with the later game. The justification for this is that "nothing much is going on" and so the first few players need to play more turns to have the same level of "action."

I'm not convinced. What I notice is that a great number of game-changing decisions are made in the first 100 turns or so. Where to place cities, what to build first, what to research first, where to explore, etc. These are crucial decisions because mistakes made here affect the rest of the game.

I recommend, and like all my recommendations, it is very open to discussion, that early turnset lengths be very limited: 5 or 10 turns maybe. This way, the critical early decisions can be decided by the team, not just by the first couple of players. Also, everyone will get to have an impact on the first 100 turns of the game!

In a recent (and my only) SG--RB19--there was one turnset where I just felt...off. I didn't feel confident about anything I was doing. I wasn't thinking clearly, and I just knew it. Instead of the usual 10 turns, I cut my turnset short to 5 turns. Good thing, too. Examination of what I'd been doing by Sullla (even though he raised an eyebrow at my cutting short the turnset) revealed that I was off. Bad techs, bad builds, strange citizen assignments.

So, I recommend that if anyone feels like they don't know what's best to do: stop and ask for advice, or stop altogether for a while. The advisors for this thread all agreed to ask for much discussion before taking action; we should take advantage of that!

I'm here to learn, to help and to have fun! There are so many great CIV players signed up for this event on the other teams that winning is a longshot. But if we play well and have a good time with it, I really don't care. (And by playing well, I don't mean playing without error; I mean playing the best each of us can at that moment.)

As always, I look forward to being your advisor.

Serving you proudly,
Compromise

I'm at work so I've only had the time for a cursory analysis but here are my thoughts:

It is an interesting proposition to delay founding our second city for a little while. Our research rate will be severly hampered by the maintenance costs and I, like compromise, would like to have archery researched before we start getting barb incursions of any note (remember raging barbs!). Bronze working is also of utmost importance for slavery, obviously.

What happens if we found a religion? If we do, will it go in our capitol or in our new city? I'm not sure. It would be ungood if it showed up in our capitol because we couldn't spread it until astronomy.

Delaying the founding of our second city is very counterintuitive to me, and I'm not convinced it is the correct strategy. It's worth thinking about, though.

Checking in.

I agree on the early palace move, and I also agree on not playing too quickly, allowing for team discussion.

Maybe one solution would be to not have a "set" number of turns to play? Say that people can play 5-15 turns, as long as they are playing according to group consensus. Like compromise says, if at any point you feel your game is off, or that you're making decisions that you're unsure about, I think that's a good time to stop, save, and figure it out. I hope that I can count on everyone to be fairly active with advice given. We don't want to play too quickly, or too much at a time. having said that, we don't want to take TOO long, so try and stick to the regular 24/48, as long as we know what we're doing. IMHO there's nothing magical about ending on an "even" year, other than the fact that it's a good reminder to stop and avoid "one-more-turn-itis" :-)

I will also do my best to post a "summary" post periodically, hopefully at least after each turn. I've seen too many SGs go awry because someone settled 1-off where the group wanted to settle, because the dotmap was 3 pages ago. In this summary post, I'll post the roster, as well as the key points in various areas (diplomatic, tech, settling, building, religion, etc). Againn, having said that, I don't want to be TOO anal about stuff like this. While I think that it's good to get consensus, the ultimate goal of this is to have fun. Still, there's 8 of us, and it's no fun for someone to do their own thing that the other 7 don't want. As I posted in the RB thread, I was looking for people to communicate and get consensus, and since you're all here, I am assuming that's what you want too.

According to the signup thread, there are 8 of us. We have heard from myself, compromise, ruff_hi, Snaproll and Zalson. We still need to hear from: BeefOnTheBone, EL_OSO, and Kodii. I'm going to tentatively set the roster just going down the line of how alan assigned us. If there's a particular order that you'd like, speak up now.

I think in Kyoto we should build workboat * 4 first, whipping as soon as we can. We only need a warrior to prevent military unhappiness at size 5 I believe. And I don't think we need to worry about barbs there for quite awhile :-). We should also build a workboat / galley to explore if it looks like we can. Though it would be my guess that Kyoto will be isolated till Optics. Speaking of which, that should probably be our first (mid-range) tech-goal. We start with Fishing and The Wheel. Seems like BW or archery are good tech choices. Both require 2 techs, but I think BW is better. Especially if we're going to delay the 2nd city. Once we get BW, we don't have to worry about having copper in our 2nd city's radius, we can just settle wherever the copper IS :-)

We definitely need to figure out how much maintenance costs we're going to get, and empirically whether or not it's worth it to settle ASAP. It might be a matter of having to find a high commerce tile (gold/gems?) to settle next to. If we're losing 7 gpt, we definitely want a high commerce 2nd city or we're going to really hamper ourselves economically.

And remember, our goal is fastest conquest.

SUMMARY POST:

Roster (temporary for now - feel free to submit changes):
Regoarrarr (up)
BeefOnTheBone (on deck)
Compromise
EL_OSO
Kodii
ruff_hi
Snaproll
Zalson

Diplomacy:
Rivals to meet: Unknown - we need to check this ASAP via the victory page once we get the save. Remember everyone is a potential enemy since we have to win by conquest.

Technology:
Mining->Bronze Working has been suggested. Masonry for palace move would also be handy, as well as generally making our way to Optics / Astronomy. Archery too since there are raging barbs, though if we have copper, axes would be better. Optics also require Machinery, which we'll need for Samurai (also Civil Service)

Settling:
It has been suggested we hold off on settling the 2nd city due to the huge distance maintenance (-7 gpt). Does this take into account that we're organized? It says -50% civic costs, though I don't know if that includes distance maintenance.

Builds:
I think workboat first in Kyoto is the obvious move. After that, probably another workboat or 2, though we'll also want a library in there. Heavy use of the whip. Don't be afraid to let it grow unhappy if we can whip it down. Try to whip every 15 turns.

Religion:
I think we want one. I'm not sure how the holy city is determined - anybody know? All I know is that whenever I play and found a religion with 2 cities, it always gets founded in the 2nd city (not capital). So that's good. We should probably try for Confucianism or Taoism

Any other categories that should go in this?

Checking in, peeps - looking forward to this one, although I'm rubbish with raging barbs (I tend to neglect defences far too much as it is) so might need some prodding.

I reckon Compo (heh) could be on to something here - the maintenance will be huge for an initial founding and we'll need to place early cities very carefully. On Monarch I think we'll need a warrior in Kyoto before we get the 4 workboats out, not sure offhand. Given that we're going to have high maintenance costs until we can move the palace, an early religion and shrine would be a bonus - we'll have plenty of commerce in Kyoto, so maybe we should try to snag one relatively early. On raging barbs though I'm not sure if that'll be too dangerous, and we wouldn't want it founded in Kyoto if we can help it, so in fact we might be better off not doing so until at least 2 cities have been founded in the East to minimise the chance of it ending up isolated (assuming border pops in Kyoto don't reveal any coast tiles nearby, which seems unlikely).

Tricky.

Incidentally, the capitals in my nick are only the Bs. I don't know why, but it looks really odd to me with the others in...

I know I'm spamming but hey one team already has 35 posts in their team thread - let's go people!!! :-)

It looks like we're just about guaranteed to have the religion founded in our 2nd city
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169716&page=2

One possibility would be to take CoL from the Oracle, but if we build the Oracle in Kyoto, then that's where our prophet is going to come, and we'll have no easy way to get him to the holy city to build the shrine (till Optics)

The holy cities are allocated to the city with the least culture (according to people in 'RB19 - True Cultural Challenge'). This means we should found our second city before getting our first religion to stop it going to Kyoto.

Exploring with the settler is an option (and an interesting one at that). However, we mustn't get that settler killed (would totally ruin game for sure). Also, Kyoto is a worldbuilder special - that is, added by hand (well, it looks like one to me) while our settler has been placed by the map scripted (and thus likely to be at a very nice position).

I'm learning towards archery for the first tech (raging barbs).

The problem with archery first, is that we first have to do Hunting. If we're going to research 2 techs, why not the much better (and not THAT much more expensive) Mining and Bronze Working (170 beakers vs. 100). Yes, we then we need to build a worker and hook up copper too, but do we really need Hunting and Archery (assuming we can build axes in time to not get killed, of course) :)

Jeez I'm spamming again.

@Compromise - 37 tiles horizontally which way? wrapping across the minimap or not?

Because if it's 37 tiles wrapping, we might make it worth our while to move the settler to the east side of the landmass it's currently on, since that might get it a bit closer

Good point. It looked like Compromised knock up a shadow game - do you have a save you can post so we can all experiment and get some hard numbers re dates, maintenance costs etc.

Hey all, quick reply here since I'm rushed.

(I'll drop the Dear Ms. Beyond format since it didn't catch on.)

I did whip up a shadow game, but I forgot to save it separately, and I overwrote everything :cry: :cry: :cry:

But I did whip up another quick one to test the capital.

It is on a plains hill (otherwise the workboat would take much longer). If our first build is a workboat and works the fish, then our second build really should be a warrior. Otherwise, our 2nd workboat completes one turn before we go to size 5 and have an unhappy person. So, the build order in our capital should be: workboat, warrior, workboat*3.

In fact, we don't need the other 3 workboats. It's just that there's nothing else to build. If our border pop reveals coast that we can travel to, I suggest sending a couple workboats off in search of the rest of the world!

(I'll drop the Dear Ms. Beyond format since it didn't catch on.)Thank goodness for that!

Okay, here are my notes that I used to figure out the distance between the capital and the settler:

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/6159/mm1mp3.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Above is a cropped screenshot of a blown up version of the minimap. This section is near the capital. The circle is 15 pixels in diameter and covers all 5 visible tiles. Thus, each square in the game is 3 pixels in the minimap. The center of the city is at coordinates (27,44).

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/382/mm2yk5.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Above is a cropped zoom of the region of the minimap where the settler is. This time, the circle is 12 pixels in diameter. (I used the circles to verify the 3x3pixels-per-gamesquare calculation.) The center of the settler's location is at (139,59).

Thus, the center of Kyoto and the center of the settler are (139-27, 59-44) => (112,15) pixels => (37,5) game squares apart. (Off by one pixel in the x-direction because one game square is probably not *exactly* 3 pixels wide.)

(I think I wrote (37,4) in my other post. This one is correct, but it doesn't matter much.)

When I plugged an island and a settler in these locations in that (deleted) shadow game, my income at 100% science went from 0 to -7gpt, all of it due to city distance maintenance.

(I'll drop the Dear Ms. Beyond format since it didn't catch on.)
Thank goodness for that!

I'm off my caffeine buzz now, and will try to behave a little :blush: .

I'm torn between archery or BW first. Essentially, the BW path is more of a gamble but also will pay off it it works out. No points for second place... Maybe a beeline to BW and then settle the first city on copper? Awful risky (especially if copper doesn't show...)

Kodii has now checked in :)

Summer school is over! And now I'm ready to get some real gaming done.

It looks like all of my ideas have already been discussed regarding the beginning of our game. I'm all for exploring using the settler. Having skyrocketing maintenance costs at the beginning of the game is never a good thing. (Stagnation anybody? :lol: )

We're going to need to have a good defence in this game, especially with Raging Barbarians AND Aggressive Opponents. Should we go for Hunting and Archery to ensure we have defence? Or should we gamble and go for BW, hope we find copper by exploring, and build a worker to connect it?

It looks like Compromise has done a -lot- of pre-analysis. I think the workboat, warrior, workboat x3 is probably the best route as well.

As for religion, going for Confucianism or Taoism is nice, but if we want to ensure the religion in our -second- city, then we shouldn't build any other cities before then.

The playing order looks good, as long as you don't put me too close to the beginning :lol:

Some thoughts. These summary posts are an *excellent* idea!

SUMMARY POST:

Roster (temporary for now - feel free to submit changes):
Regoarrarr (up)
BeefOnTheBone (on deck)
Compromise
EL_OSO
Kodii
ruff_hi
Snaproll
Zalson


Sounds good to me.

Diplomacy:
Rivals to meet: Unknown - we need to check this ASAP via the victory page once we get the save. Remember everyone is a potential enemy since we have to win by conquest.

True. But we may be able to eliminate them one at a time and so have temporary friendships for a little while.

Technology:
Mining->Bronze Working has been suggested. Masonry for palace move would also be handy, as well as generally making our way to Optics / Astronomy. Archery too since there are raging barbs, though if we have copper, axes would be better. Optics also require Machinery, which we'll need for Samurai (also Civil Service)

I really think we should do Hunting/Archery first. Here's my thinking:

1) we can delay settling the settler for much--if not all--of the 10 turns (100 beakers / (8palace+1citycenter+2coast) beakers = 10 turns till archery with some leftover beakers) it'll take to research Archery

2) One archer in a city can hold off anything that raging barbs can send at us on Monarch.

3) Getting that archer means we can research Pottery while starting on a worker. Then, we can set our worker to work making cottages while we build more archers to protect them.

4) Then, we can go for Bronze and take over the world.

Actually, I'm not sure which of Pottery or Bronze we should go for after Archery.

I do think that counting on Copper near where we happen to place our 2nd city is a bit risky. Especially with reduced research on a raging barbs map.

Settling:
It has been suggested we hold off on settling the 2nd city due to the huge distance maintenance (-7 gpt). Does this take into account that we're organized? It says -50% civic costs, though I don't know if that includes distance maintenance.

It's only civics (#cities and #pop) that organized reduces. I did the test with Tokugawa.


Builds:
I think workboat first in Kyoto is the obvious move. After that, probably another workboat or 2, though we'll also want a library in there. Heavy use of the whip. Don't be afraid to let it grow unhappy if we can whip it down. Try to whip every 15 turns.

There has to be something to whip, or it's not worth it. With all that food, Kyoto can grow so fast, it's ridiculous. But if it's isolated in the ocean, the only thing even remotely close to be built is a Library (which I agree should be whipped with unhappy folk when we get Writing).

Religion:
I think we want one. I'm not sure how the holy city is determined - anybody know? All I know is that whenever I play and found a religion with 2 cities, it always gets founded in the 2nd city (not capital). So that's good. We should probably try for Confucianism or Taoism


We may want a religion, but since we're going for a fast conquest win, I think our best strategy will be to take it from a neighbor!

Any other categories that should go in this?

How about: "Bad Jokes"? (Okay, that was self-referencial.)

Oh...one other thought I had about city sites: I think we'll only build one more city max for the rest of the game. And that one will net us some Copper if we don't luck out and get it with our 2nd city. The rest of our Conquest-oriented cities will be built by the AI!

Who shall be our appointed scribe?

Okay, just one more thought and then I *really* need to get some other things done.

We could move the starting settler NW one square (on the coast, floodplains in immediate reach) and start a Worker and research on Pottery first off. We'll want to check this in a shadow game, but we might still be able to get Archery before the barbs converge.

I think the key to this game will be: who can get their economy under control before setting off on Conquest. I should reread Sullla's Epic 4 writeup before making too many more suggestions....

(Just Previewed and saw Kodii's post. I could be scribe if needed. My humor can be bad, though:mischief:.)

The only thing that I'm worried about, if we delay settling rather quickly, is that initial on-rush of the barbs. Without something to protect that settler, I'm pretty sure it will be toast. Barbs will show up later than on Epic 4, but... well, not long after. I think that in the beginning, it's okay to err on the side of caution.

As for the short opening turns format... while it might be better for gameplay in the long run, I dislike... forget diplomatic language, let's be blunt, shall we? We're gonna end up cluttering up the thread with 5-10 turn sets. Add in that this is Epic speed, and the first turnsets might end up driving us nuts. Striving for victory is fine, but lets not go too overboard. :p

That said, I think that hunting/archery is the way to go... but wait, Toku starts with hunting... so we're already there. I apologize if this isn't written in the most readable format, but I'm thinking as I'm writing. The pottery plan sounds OK, but I'm worried about risking it.

However, my input for the first time around depends on my Civputer being repaired... never again will I buy a computer from Fry's.

@Compromise - but how big is the minimap? If the 2 points are at (27,44) and (139,59), going the other way (wrapping around the side of the map) seems like it would be shorter. I.e. if the minimap is 150 pixels wide, then instead of being 112 pixels apart horizontally, they're only 38 pixels apart. Make sense?

As far as Kyoto goes, one thing it can do once we get a library is run scientist specialists. That will help our research as well as get us a Great Scientist. GS can research juicy techs like Philosophy or Astronomy.

It also seems that the best thing is to take a religion from one of our neighbors, if there are any nearby. On Monarch, w/o Mysticism, there's no way we're going to get one of the early 3, even if we didn't have much better techs to research.

@All - I'm glad you like the summary posts. Please everyone feel free to use them - don't feel like you have to wait for me. Just copy the most recent one in the thread and update it with the latest things the group has mentioned. I did think of another category for the summary - Great People: How we're going to generate them and what we want to do with them.

@Compromise again - it's 100 beakers on normal speed, but this is Epic speed so it's going to be more than that.

@Zalson - Yes we don't have to play 5-10 turns in the early game, as long as the player is comfortable that they're on board with "the plan".

@Zalson again - Toku starts with Fishing and The Wheel

@Compromise - but how big is the minimap? If the 2 points are at (27,44) and (139,59), going the other way (wrapping around the side of the map) seems like it would be shorter. I.e. if the minimap is 150 pixels wide, then instead of being 112 pixels apart horizontally, they're only 38 pixels apart. Make sense?

Yes good points, but the minimap autowidens to encompass the part of the world you've discovered. A normal size map is 84 wide. Since 37 is < 84/2, I assume it's the closer direction.

As far as Kyoto goes, one thing it can do once we get a library is run scientist specialists. That will help our research as well as get us a Great Scientist. GS can research juicy techs like Philosophy or Astronomy.

Yes! I forgot to mention that: Kyoto=GP Farm

It also seems that the best thing is to take a religion from one of our neighbors, if there are any nearby. On Monarch, w/o Mysticism, there's no way we're going to get one of the early 3, even if we didn't have much better techs to research.

@All - I'm glad you like the summary posts. Please everyone feel free to use them - don't feel like you have to wait for me. Just copy the most recent one in the thread and update it with the latest things the group has mentioned. I did think of another category for the summary - Great People: How we're going to generate them and what we want to do with them.

@Compromise again - it's 100 beakers on normal speed, but this is Epic speed so it's going to be more than that.

Agree with all. Yes. It will be 150 beakers, and 15 turns. Right about when the barb animals start showing up. (Those are good for archer xp!)

@Zalson - Yes we don't have to play 5-10 turns in the early game, as long as the player is comfortable that they're on board with "the plan".

@Zalson again - Toku starts with Fishing and The Wheel

Yes, I was just thinking 5 turns for the first turnset or two, when the critical decisions are made. Otherwise...it'll be 2008 before we finish.

Another possibility for regoarrarr's "Status Report": wish lists. Both for the civ as a whole "We need samurai! We need bureacracy!" and for individual cities "Kyoto:needs library and scientist specialists!"

It seems like Kyoto will still grow slowly with 2 scientists running - so we may want to have that be our standard MO once we get all 4 seafoods hooked up. And it looks like fishing boats give 1 more food than crab boats, so we sh ould hook the 2 fish up first I think.

Just to clarify a little bit, this is what we get by being Japanese:

Traits: Aggressive (Free Combat I for Melee and Gunpowder, double production of Barracks, Drydock), Organized (Civic Upkeep -50%, double production of Lighthouse, Courthouse)
Techs: Fishing (to Sailing + Pottery), The Wheel (Pottery)
UU: Samurai (replaces Maceman - Machinery & Civil Service - Iron) - Same as Maceman (8|1|70), but addition to 50% vs. Melee, we have 2 First Strikes
Favorite Civic: Mercantilism
And: A wonderful flag with a red dot :lol:

Now my turn to spam :lol:

Here is a list of techs that want to get at some point in time in no specific order:

Archery (?) - Archers
Bronze Working (?) - Obvious Reason
Pottery - Cottages
Sailing (?) - Lighthouse (1/2 Price)
Writing - Library (Kyoto)
Optics - Caravel (Kyoto)
Machinery - Samurai
Civil Service - Samurai
Code of Laws (?) - Confucianism/Courthouse (1/2 Price)
Everything in Between

Of course, I left a lot out, so continue to add to this list. Some of the techs that we want to get will lead to other techs we want to get. For example, Pottery --> Writing --> CoL --> Civil Service.

It seems like Kyoto will still grow slowly with 2 scientists running - so we may want to have that be our standard MO once we get all 4 seafoods hooked up. And it looks like fishing boats give 1 more food than crab boats, so we should hook the 2 fish up first I think.

Agree about running the scientists as soon as we can. 3 beakers is better than 2 commerce and the GPP are icing on the cake. We should definitely hook up the fish first, but the crab or fish next won't matter. With the fish, we get an extra food, but with the crab we remove one unhealthy point, so the end result is the same for feeding the 5th population point.

And if we put a lighthouse (half price!) in Kyoto, then all sea tiles are +1F. So ... build order for Kyoto ...

fishing boat, warrior, crab boat, granery, fishing boat, library, crab boat, lighthouse

... with most buildings, boats, etc being whipped (when available).

Well we're not going to hit the unhealthy cap at size 3, right? So it should be fish, fish, crab, crab. We'll want to whip the lighthouse and whip the granary and whip the library, of course.

I still am not sure of the best build order. But it does seem that we should be heading towards the top of the tree, which would indicate hunting / archery and holding off on mining / bronze

And we're now in 2nd place in post count!

I find it funny that if you search this site for "distance maintenance", which I did to try and find out the formulas, nearly all of the threads returned are team SGOTM2 threads :lol:

I find it funny that if you search this site for "distance maintenance", which I did to try and find out the formulas, nearly all of the threads returned are team SGOTM2 threads :lol:

Okay, now *that's* funny! Guess everyone has deciphered the screenshots.

And if we put a lighthouse (half price!) in Kyoto, then all sea tiles are +1F. So ... build order for Kyoto ...

fishing boat, warrior, crab boat, granery, fishing boat, library, crab boat, lighthouse

... with most buildings, boats, etc being whipped (when available).

We don't have Sailing on our desired tech list for quite a while, so no lighthouse for a while. More food won't help us either. We'll be stuck at 5 for a while. Until Monarchy or Drama at least. And we don't want to whip when we don't have to. On a plains hill, we can probably build a granary the old fashioned way. The library we will want to whip, though.

Well we're not going to hit the unhealthy cap at size 3, right? So it should be fish, fish, crab, crab. We'll want to whip the lighthouse and whip the granary and whip the library, of course.

I still am not sure of the best build order. But it does seem that we should be heading towards the top of the tree, which would indicate hunting / archery and holding off on mining / bronze

Once we get that fish hooked up, we'll be growing super fast even without a granary or a lighthouse.

So - let it grow. What is the down side, some lazy so-and-so eating two food waiting to be whipped into a library (or similar)?

Ack! I can't keep up! 37 posts already!

So - let it grow. What is the down side, some lazy so-and-so eating two food waiting to be whipped into a library (or similar)?

The downside is that extra population costs more in civic maintenance.

There is a point to be made, though: we are organized, so the extra maintenance won't cost too terribly much. Considering that we can run an extra 5.5 people before building a lighthouse (and 8 with one!), it will be noticeable if we just let Kyoto go as high as possible.

But, I think we'll usually be working the fish and using scientist specialists from the library, so it should be okay.

I'll probably have some time tomorrow to play with Worldbuilder again. I'll try to whip up a shadow game again and post it here.

Also, would it be of any interest to anyone if I kept an updated shadow game going? Kind of like the "Big Board" in a war room. That way, if we wanted to run scenarios (e.g., can these 4 axemen take out those 2 archers most of the time?), we can use the shadow game to test it. It would take some work, because I'd want to update it with new information as that became available, but I might have the time to do it if there's interest from the team.

Holy crap! I just noticed that Team Peanut has most of their winning members from SGOTM1 and also got malekithe added to them! I'm pretty sure the rest of us are playing for the Silver laurels.

Do I have anything useful to say? No. Sorry. Just another post to delay Snaproll's catch-up reading.:p

I think that a running shadow game would be useful, if you have the time to do that. As for Team Peanut, BRING. IT. ON!

So I'm thinking our general tech path should be Hunting, Archery, Animal Husbandry, Pottery, Writing. It looks like Masonry is no longer required for building the palace, but you do need 4 cities.

If compromise's shadow game is correct, and we are 37 tiles away from the island where the settler stands, and it's shorter that way than wrapping around the minimap (I'd still like to investigate that), then moving the settler any further east would only increase the maintenance.

It's hard to know whether or not it's worth it to settle earlier, to give the 2nd city the time to grow, or to wait awhile. If we're waiting, what are we waiting for? It's hard to justify waiting to settle a 2nd city till we have courts or markets!

So I'm thinking our general tech path should be Hunting, Archery, Animal Husbandry, Pottery, Writing. It looks like Masonry is no longer required for building the palace, but you do need 4 cities.

If compromise's shadow game is correct, and we are 37 tiles away from the island where the settler stands, and it's shorter that way than wrapping around the minimap (I'd still like to investigate that), then moving the settler any further east would only increase the maintenance.

It's hard to know whether or not it's worth it to settle earlier, to give the 2nd city the time to grow, or to wait awhile. If we're waiting, what are we waiting for? It's hard to justify waiting to settle a 2nd city till we have courts or markets!

In general, I like the proposed tech path, but why Animal Husbandry? We'll probably want to use axemen to take down the enemy.

Definitely we'll want to check on the distance calculations I made. I hope I can get a shadow game together some time today. I do remember thinking that the minimap in the shadow game I whipped up earlier (all I did was count 5 up and 37 over and put an island there with the appropriate fish and crabs) looked remarkably similar to the minimap in the original screenshots.

I think there are several reasons for delaying the settling of our second city:

1) We want to find a great spot. Ideally a plains hill near some good food and hill resources. (Okay really ideally Copper, but we won't wait that long.)

2) We don't want to delay our ability to produce archers

3) We want the city to be productive from the moment its founded. Without Pottery or a gold mine, it will take a while for it to pay for itself. With our starting techs, the only useful build we could make early on is a workboat, but even that is only good if there is a seafood resource within the first ring of workable tiles. We probably won't have a way of expanding our borders until we whip a library into that city, so it will have to be positioned well.

4) The settler will make a good scout for about 10 turns as long as a) it doesn't pop any barbs from huts and b) the map wasn't edited to add barbs from the start.

I don't think we need to delay more than 10-15 turns before founding the city.

@Compromise - that makes sense about waiting 10-15 turns to settle.

As for AH - I think that was going off of there being sheep in the opening pic of the settler. Obviously we don't have to settle there, but if there's sheep (or cows or pigs) in the radius of wherever we settle, AH can make sense.

I was also thinking of that being a pre-req to Writing, but obviously so is Pottery. Though also having AH would make Writing (slightly) cheaper

Egads! Egads! So many posts.

Ok, so I was wrong about Toku... :blush: But I would say that unless we want to two-step tango with the Barbs (e.g. run around in circles and be condemned to an island), that we probably shouldn't wait for TOO long... I'd say that 15 is the upper limit because that should give us enough time to build an archer and meet the barbs. Too bad the abandon city option is toast.

sheep in the first picture ... oh, you mean those sheep that swim. Sort of like, tuna being the chicken of the sea ... so fish are the sheep of the sea?

IF (and I mean if) we send our settler walk-a-bout, we must put a sign on the starting location. (I expect that) this location is the map generated one and should be 'good' and equa-distance from the other civs.

sheep in the first picture ... oh, you mean those sheep that swim. Sort of like, tuna being the chicken of the sea ... so fish are the sheep of the sea?

IF (and I mean if) we send our settler walk-a-bout, we must put a sign on the starting location. (I expect that) this location is the map generated one and should be 'good' and equa-distance from the other civs.

Hey, no making fun of the captain and his sheep-seeing ways! :lol: Maybe he has one of those special compasses....

I think ruff_hi is right about this being a mapscript-generated starting location. It certainly looks like one, being one away from the coast and all.

As for the scouting of the Settler. I think we should shoot for about 5 turns of scouting with the warrior and the settler before deciding on a city location. That will give us time to move the Settler to the best spot, even if it's a spot uncovered by the warrior traveling in a different direction. The barb animals should spawn after 15 turns, and they won't enter the city borders. (I think you can even found your city when you are right next to a barb animal and it will pop away from your city, but I haven't confirmed that.

I'm trying to think about what we want our second city to accomplish. It seems like we'll want a good hybrid spot: we want it to be able to pay for itself, but we also want it pumping out troops at a good clip. Our next city should probably be focused on production so that we can generate troops. The latter will most likely need to be near some Copper.

Also, Any thoughts about how/whether to expand our non-capital cultural borders? Do we want to try building Stonehenge in Kyoto even? It would require some sacrifice of research since we'd need Mysticism (made cheaper if we meet other civs that know it already) and some poprushing in the capital.

I did a quick test and it seems like one population point only gives you something like 20 hammers on epic toward a wonder. Does anyone know for sure?

I'm mostly just trying to make sure we think about the opening in enough detail that we don't miss something that, in retrospect, should have been obvious to us.

sheep in the first picture ... oh, you mean those sheep that swim. Sort of like, tuna being the chicken of the sea ... so fish are the sheep of the sea?

Sheep, rice, whatever....

PS Bite me.

So I'll be inheriting a founded city? Suits me, I'd only mess it up somewhere otherwise :)

I think the plan now, unless anybody has any objections, is for me to play about 5-10 turns, do some scouting, then save and post some pics. Then once we decide where we want to settle, do so and play a few more turns.

Do we really think we'll have archery by turn 15? In Epic it seems like the initial techs each usually take 10-15 turns, and we have to research Hunting too. Do we want to delay settling till we get Archery?

Okay, I messed around with Worldbuilder for a while. There's really no way I'm going to be able to keep an ongoing map of the world updated; I just don't know how to handle the diplomacy and changing the civs that randomly got rolled up.

Here's the start, though, to the best of my ability (not much).

A starting pic of our settler/warrior pair:

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/1248/civ4screenshot0000lo0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Note the similarity of the minimap!

And the save is attached to this post.

@regoarrarr: I think your plan to play a few turns, stop for input, and then continue is great. Seems like the warrior one move E and the settler 2 SW is the way I'd start. After that: best judgment!

On a logistics note, I will be totally away from computers and all internet access from Fri Aug 11 through Sun Aug 14. If my turn comes up then (as seems likely from the initial order), we could either skip me or push me down the order.

SUMMARY POST:

Roster:
Regoarrarr (up) - will play 5-15 turns to scout with the settler, then post some pics, wait for team input on where to settle, and play a few more)
BeefOnTheBone (on deck)
EL_OSO
Kodii
Compromise - dropped 2 spots - skip from 8/11 to 8/14
ruff_hi
Snaproll
Zalson

Diplomacy:
Rivals to meet: Unknown - we need to check this ASAP via the victory page once we get the save. Remember everyone is a potential enemy since we have to win by conquest. Of course we can befriend them for the short-term.

Technology:
Seems most folks are for an opening tech move of Hunting -> Archery. After that, probably Pottery->Writing (since we start with Fishing and The Wheel). Let us not forget Animal Husbandry for the swimming pigs! No need for Masonry for a palace move, but we probably want to head to the mining/BW path before TOO long, even if only to see where the copper is.

Medium term - Optics->Astronomy.

Settling:
Plan is to hold off 10-15 turns on settling the 2nd city to scout out the best place. Ideally we'd see some gold or gems to settle next to. 3rd city probably needs to go near copper and the rest of the cities will be acquired by :hammer:

Builds:
Kyoto builds workboat/warrior/workboat. If we can explore with that 2nd workboat good but probably not.

Religion:
I think we want one. If we found one, it will go in the 2nd city if we have one. We should probably try for Confucianism or Taoism since the odds of us getting one of the first 3 on Monarch w/o Mysticism are slim.

Great People:
Plan is to run 2 scientists in Kyoto once we get to Writing. Need to research what techs a Great Scientist will give us, and which ones we want to aim for. With as long as we're goign to be running scientists, we'll probably get a few GS's

Cool. Also, I noticed that six of the SGOTM2 team threads--including ours--have posted attachments. I've never tried to simulate a start before; it's kind of a pain. But in glancing at the GOTM threads, it seems to be what people do.

List of techs a G scientist will research

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
The Wheel
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy
Biology
Electricity
Flight
Genetics
Compass
Satellites
Sailing
Alphabet
Calendar
Medicine
Ecology
Iron Working
Metal Casting
Engineering
Steam Power
Liberalism
Agriculture
Masonry
Bronze Working
Machinery
Gunpowder
Refrigeration
Rocketry
Fishing
Combustion
Plastics
Composites
Mining
Radio
Meditation
Drama
Theology
Music
Civil Service
Democracy
Corporation
Communism
Economics
Hunting
Archery
Animal Husbandry
Construction
Robotics
Monotheism
Mass Media
Horseback Riding
Replaceable Parts
Rifling
Artillery
Future Tech

So if we want one to research (part of) Astronomy, we need to either not research or get in some other way techs like Paper and Philosophy.

A powerful strat I've seen lately is to tech up to Drama and use the first GS to get Philosophy. With its trading power lots of times you can catch yourself up, tech-wise. If we want to save it for Astronomy, we can choose not to research Meditation to keep Philosophy off the table.

I'm assuming we'll want to use a library to pop borders in our 2nd city, though the thought of whipping Stonehenge seems like a decent idea too.

Oso checking in here. I've been working 12 hour shifts for the past 3 weeks and it looks like I got one more to do. You might want to move me towards the end of the turn order as I'll only be able to participate on the weekends until it slows down where I work.

A couple of notes from my experiments on the shadow game, in no particular order.

* Hunting is only 8 turns right away, with Archery another 9 turns.
* Settling on Turn 1 gives you 7 gpt distance maintenance, dropping research to 50%.
* You can pop hostile barbs right away (I did in one game with my settler)
* I settled 11 turns west of the start spot, and it dropped the distance maintenance to 6 gpt. Doesn't really seem worth it. Though one option would be to settle close to one of our neighbors and storm his city.
* I saw a barb animal at 3610 BC (turn 13). After that, it becomes very difficult to avoid them with the settler (given that they have 2 moves). Probably need to decide a place to settle by turn 10 or so.
* Health cap is 3, so Kyoto is unhealthy at size 4.

Need to do some more investigation, but I think it's better to:
* go workboat, workboat in Kyoto
* Go mining / BW and skip Archery. I think we'll have time to get axes before we need to stop barb archers.

A couple of notes from my experiments on the shadow game, in no particular order.

* Hunting is only 8 turns right away, with Archery another 9 turns.
* Settling on Turn 1 gives you 7 gpt distance maintenance, dropping research to 50%.
* You can pop hostile barbs right away (I did in one game with my settler)
* I settled 11 turns west of the start spot, and it dropped the distance maintenance to 6 gpt. Doesn't really seem worth it. Though one option would be to settle close to one of our neighbors and storm his city.
* I saw a barb animal at 3610 BC (turn 13). After that, it becomes very difficult to avoid them with the settler (given that they have 2 moves). Probably need to decide a place to settle by turn 10 or so.
* Health cap is 3, so Kyoto is unhealthy at size 4.

Need to do some more investigation, but I think it's better to:
* go workboat, workboat in Kyoto
* Go mining / BW and skip Archery. I think we'll have time to get axes before we need to stop barb archers.


(Welcome EL_OSO, we look forward to your work schedule letting up a bit.)

I agree with your first paragraph.

Try the workboat, workboat in Kyoto. I think you grow to size 5 (and unhappy) the following turn.

The trouble with going for Bronze is that I don't think we can count on having Copper in the 8 squares around our second city. So, we need to found the city, find a suitable Copper site, train a Settler (for the new city) and a Worker (to hook up the copper). All of this with 50% science after we found the city!

Isn't it 30 turns or so before discovering Bronze even if we don't settle the starting Settler? Then how many more before we can get the Settler to the Copper, a Worker trained, and the Copper mined and roaded, and an axeman out the door to protect the Copper?

If we settle right away, won't it be something like 50+ turns before we discover Bronze? All the while, we have one warrior to protect our "mainland" holdings....

And what if there is no copper :eek: , either because the AI settles it or because the evil scenario designer removed it! :( Then, we will be :cry: :cry: as we try to earn the Wooden Spoons.

In addition, I actually think Archery will be useful in this game. We have to garrison our soon-to-be-many cities with some kind of troop, and archers are cheaper than Axes.

In case anyone isn't subscribed to the maintenance thread, AlanH said there:


Some late breaking news about your game:

1. We now know that there are seven rivals on the map (not including the barbs).

2. Much pixel-counting effort has been expended to try to work out the distance between Kyoto and the settler. To settle the debates, and to help your strategy discussions move forward, we'll divulge that the second city, if built where the settler stands, would cost 7 gpt in maintenance.

ruff_hi, I just spent the last 20 minutes laughing out loud while reading the Trash Talking Thread for SGOTM1; that should be started up again....

Thanks for the maintenance thread info. Sigh, and I thought I was so clever for determining that 7 gpt on my own.... And then...and then...they just give it away! I feel so...so...cheap. :cry:

I know - I thought that was kind of cheap too

Maybe AlanH will stop by and give us a thumbs up for being one of the 15 teams to figure it out on our own! Maybe?

AlanH, any chance? Any?!

Oh please whatever powers there be, let someone important be lurking in our godforsaken thread!!!

(Actually, any lurkers would be better than that dunghumored Compromise!)

Where are my meds?

I'm here. Well done :thumbsup:

Ohhh yeahhhh... That's the stuff....

AlanH, you were like...everywhere man! 2/3rds of the threads had their last post from you in the last 10 minutes!

Edit: Screenshot added for those not online at this momentous moment:


http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/415/alanhpostingstk4.gif (http://imageshack.us)


Maybe he's like that guy in The Matrix who watches strange symbols trickle down the screen like some drug-distorted game of Tetris and he watches all the threads at once....
Cooool....
And Gyathaar is the one typing that crazy letterage.
Dude, that's just like wow man.

Just dropping by, being neighbourly :p

I'm here too! XD~

I've been away all day, and will be doing the same for the weekend, but the game hasn't started so thats okay. I'm reading everything you guys have discussed and I think we've come to a pretty good decision of what we're going to do in certain situations. As for scheduling, I will be away August 18-20 in a little desert town called Kamloops (http://www.city.kamloops.bc.ca/index.shtml) :lol:

I'll take another look at what was discussed earlier and will make another comment on what I think. Good work peoples! (We've almost caught up in the most number of posts!)

Let's all just take a deep breath and begin singing...

"Kumbayah my Lord, Kumbayah.
Why'r'we playin' a Shadow game, Lord, kumbayah
I feel a rev'rsion to the Hippy Game, Kumbayah
Oh Lord, Kumbayah."*

The hippy comment was just because of the song; the shadow game comment... in fact, I just wanted to be included. :( :sad:

The real reason for this post:

All the while, we have one warrior to protect our "mainland" holdings...

WHAT!? When did this happen?

*Sung to the tune of "Kumbayah, My Lord." Just try to make the words fit to the melody, I dare you.

Take another look at the beginning screenshot. Pay attention sir :lol:

Theres a warrior standing one tile above the settler.

EDIT - By "mainland", he means that large chunk of land that will be infested with evildoers and monkies. Not that island paradise.

Take another look at the beginning screenshot. Pay attention sir

Theres a warrior standing one tile above the settler.

Y'know what? Y'KNOW WHAT?!?

Thanks for pointing that out to me; that changes just about everything. Okay, we can delay founding; just stick on defensive terrain, or found when the animals show.

What is this? I come home from a long day and theres only one added post? :lol:

Come on! We're seven posts (now six) behind!

As for the discussion over the tech order, I definately think that going for Hunting, then Archery first is the best choice, if we don't want to gamble on resources. After that, Pottery (since we have Fishing and The Wheel already) and onto Writing? If we want to go for Confucianism (and cheap Courthouses :)), then we're going to want Meditation + Priesthood? We also need to pick up Mining and BW in there as well. Oh, and AH for the "swimming pigs". So, what we need to decide which techs we need the most. Of course, this can be decided as we play through the beginning turns.

Regoarrarr: Your plan for the first few turns looks good. And leads me to a question about this SG.

Can a certain person play a portion of the game, then save and discuss what they should do, and continue to finish his portion of his... portion?

Also, is there any specific number of turns each player has? From reading through SGs, I assume that it varies between players in the situation, but is there a min and a max?

Thanks guys!

The number of turns in a turnset is usually 10. Going under or over, frequently and without notifying teammates, is considered bad form. This just gives SOME regularity. It could be 7, for that matter, or some complex equation (I don't do math, so just use your imagination), but it's easier to count by 10.

As for asking for advice or whatever you need during your turnset, that is most highly appreciated! In fact, I should write this down somewhere. IT's always helpful to consult on those, "Oh Carp!" moments.

And look, I'm trying to keep the post count up! I think we were the first to go golden... er... red...dend...

All for the institution of a trash-talking thread, say... something to indicate assent; I was thinking something that sounded like "eye," but without the first "e."

Definitely we're cool with stopping and discussing and then finishing. And I guess 10 turns apiece (at least once we get into things) keeps things regular

yes and it is good to be regular (http://www.metamucil.com/)

yes and it is good to be regular

I agree. Definitively.

Ahh...regularity. Tis a good thing indeed.

(I've still got Kumbayah going in my head; thanks a lot Zalson. :) )

Ahem.

I like the 10 turns per turnset plan, especially if people feel confident about asking for advice if big decisions are to be made.

With the game start not far away, it seems to me like we've discussed everything we can before we know more. A lot will depend on how big and crowded the "mainland" (where our settler, not our capital, is).

I rolled up about 10 fractal maps while whipping up the Worldbuilder shadow game. It seems like 70% of the time it comes out as a stretched pangea map, and the rest of the time a continents-type of map. In the latter versions, though, there seems to be more coastal scouting opportunity than in regular continents maps.

I'm thinking that our approach in this game, generally, will be:

1) get that settler to a good city site. Defend the site and make it profitable.
1b) figure out if we're going to need Astronomy to win.

2) Secure some metal.

3) build a strike force and take out a neighboring civ. Probably preferably an aggressive one, though I'm not sure about that.

4) One by one, eliminate the competition.

Anyone want to guess as to what modifications have been made by the scenario designer? Minimum is: add (by hand) the island where Kyoto is founded. Any other guesses? Maybe we could make it an intra-team competition: closest guess wins the "prophetic dice" award!

PS: It's too late for me to be caffeinated, so my already meager wit is completely gone. At least I know it now.

I took a couple minutes to get caught up with the signup thread and maintenance thread. I'm going to take this opportunity to apologize to (probably) DaviddesJ and anyone else who I may have offended with my posts there. (If on other SGOTM2 teams, they can, in theory, read this post after the event.)

It looks like there will be no trash-talk thread. While I agree that most of it was drivel, some posts made me laugh. Still, the workload on the staff to make sure that no reasonable lines were crossed was probably excessive, so I understand the decision not to have another.

The upshot of all of this is that the Real Ms. Beyond team (and really bored lurkers who have caught up on all the worthwhile team threads) will be subject to my abject attempts at humor. If I offend, let me know and I'll try to keep it to a minimum.

Man, I need some caffeine. Maybe in the morning.


Oh, and I finally saw Zalson's signup request. Is it too late to deny him a spot on the team so we can get some corner weeping? I'm still bitter about the Kumbayah chorus in my head.

Oh, and I finally saw Zalson's signup request. Is it too late to deny him a spot on the team so we can get some corner weeping? I'm still bitter about the Kumbayah chorus in my head.
Yes! It finally took effect.

So that's two votes for a trash-talking thread?

EDIT: Just saw that ruff_hi was trying his hardest for a trashtalk thread... and then accepted AlanH's reasoning.

Well, I can't say I was happy about this, because I was going to be an equal-opportunity-mocker-and-trash-talker (EOMATT, pron. YO-mat). I guess it just wasn't meant to be. I never even got to really warm up... "The Geezers are Old and Slow! Even The Real Ms. Beyond can't excite them," or "The Real Ms. Beyond ISN'T Very Quick!" All these campaign slogans will just decompose in my mind...

So, yes, as always, it's ending in tears. Are you happy Compromise? :cry: :( :sad:

So, in *real* news, we should have the save tomorrow, right? If so, I'll grab it and play a few turns and then report with some screenies

PS Kum-ba-ya

Well, I can't say I was happy about this, because I was going to be an equal-opportunity-mocker-and-trash-talker (EOMATT, pron. YO-mat). I guess it just wasn't meant to be. I never even got to really warm up... "The Geezers are Old and Slow! Even The Real Ms. Beyond can't excite them," or "The Real Ms. Beyond ISN'T Very Quick!" All these campaign slogans will just decompose in my mind...Feel free to post them here - I am sure that we should have our own trash talk mixed in with actual game discussion.

Err... I'll try. Most definitely, I'll try... about the trash-talk that is. Playing, now, that's a different idea.

How did Murky Waters get all the way to 125 posts :eek:

The save will be released later tonight, and I can't wait :)

I will probably play my first part of the turn tomorrow night (about 24 hours from now)

The Real Ms. Beyond Doesn't Like Anything Short (except for turn time in victories). Least of all, Short Straw!

Murky Waters? More like "Eutrified (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutrophication) Little Pond!"

Rah! Rah! Rekjavik! Kick them in the Bolshevik! Gooooo regoarrar!

Okay, just as a helpful service, let's remind regoarrarr what we're looking for:

1) fresh water plains hill to settle on
2) gold mine
3) wheat/corn next to fresh water
4) two or more flood plains
5) maybe an oasis
6) Copper, Horses and Iron

All within the first ring of tiles around our new city. And we need the strategic resources long before we have the techs to reveal them to us.

Good luck, captain; let us know what you see!

The save is now out. I've downloaded it just to take a look. Good luck to regoarrarr on the beginning turns. I'm going to bed now, good night!

Cmon folks just because I haven't posted my turns yet, doesn't mean that there can be no commentary!

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php

There are 2 teams that have saves posted. At the 20 turn mark, one had a score of 60ish, and one a score of 50ish

Discuss.

We are now crossing live to the action ...

... and I will pick you up at 8pm, ok? Oh ... what ... SH%^ ... and here we are at the start of SGOAT #2 with the Real Ms Beyond. They are currently tied 4th on 40 points ... a very promising start. I will update you later as we hear more ...

At the moment, CDZ is at 102 points. Have they founded their second city? (2800 BC). At the same time, The Pioneer Knights are at 52 at 3430 BC. From techs perhaps? The only other team that has played is Isamu, for... one turn? :lol: They are still at 40, as are the rest of us.

Cmon folks just because I haven't posted my turns yet, doesn't mean that there can be no commentary!

...

Discuss.

Hmmm. I tend to think that the scores are pretty meaningless until 1000BC at the very earliest. Short term gains don't necessarily lead to long term gains.

I think our strategy of delaying the founding of our second city until we have a) Archery and b) a great site is a good one, even though it might mean a lower initial score.

Has anyone tested the shadow game to see if we can: settle the Settler right away, start research on Pottery, start building a Worker, and still get to Archery before the barbs converge? That's the only strategy I can think of that has a high chance of being more successful than using the Settler as a scout for a few turns.

Gameplay note: For the love of all that is holy, don't pop a hut with that Settler!

Gameplay note: For the love of all that is holy, don't pop a hut with that Settler!

Right. I did that in a shadow game. I got barbs :)

I wasn't suggesting that we look at the scores to see who is doing best, but just as an idea of what other teams are doing, if that could be interpolated from the raw score data.

I tried to find out how score is calculated but didn't have a whole lot of success

Score is a function of (in case you didn't know), population, tech, wonders, and something else that slips my mind. Mouse over your score in the bottom right and it will give you the break down on the bottom left.

So, people with a double score early (ie 80) would have founded their city straight off (guess).

Yeah I know that. But I was trying to find something more detailed. I mean, in theory, you should be able to say that in turn 20, that one team has a score of 52, and figure out what they have done (how many techs researched, what their pop is, have they founded a 2nd city, etc)

I loaded up the shadow game real quick and have the following trivial tidbit: In 3730, Kyoto's borders expand. That will give us another ring of tile visibility there, and can reveal either coast or, if you look carefully, a rival civ's borders!

Also, I moved the settler 1 NW, settled immediately (in 4000BC) and set our research to Pottery. Interestingly, our 23-turn Worker will come out on the same turn that we discover Pottery (though we might get pottery a bit quicker as we get a bit more research from Kyoto when it grows).

I'll keep you posted.

Shadow Test Report:
Yes, the extra research from Kyoto's growth shaved 1 turn off Pottery, so we get Pottery in 3340 and our Worker and Workboat both complete 1 turn later in 3310BC.

I sent the Worker to cottage the floodplain, and started a warrior in both the capital and Osaka. I set research to Hunting in anticipation of Archery. I kept the original warrior on a hill near the start site to keep down the fog for now.

More soon....

You guys, why are we worrying about Team CDZ? Their name SUCKS!

Post pictures, someone. Then I will comment. Other than that, I think it means that CDZ founded their second city.

More Shadow Test Report:

Our cottage (takes forever on a floodplain) finished in 3100, and I next put the Workers on a road there. Archery in 10 more turns....

In 2950, the Worker completes the floodplain cottage road and has nothing else to do (lots of forest around the city), so I put him on a hill to dissipate fog (while building a road there). I could save a turn on Archery by working the coast instead of a grass forest, but I decide I want the growth and the production on the warrior in Osaka.

In 2830, I complete the warrior in Osaka, but am still one turn away from Archery. Note: we could micromanage to complete the warrior and get Archery in the same turn so that our next build could be an archer!

In 2800, I get Archery, and it's 19 turns to an archer while working the flood cottage and and a grass forest. (Mining is 10 turns away). I've met 3 other civs, so we might be getting some research bonus that may or may not occur in the real game.

A quick Worldbuilder check at 2800 reveals only barb animals so far.

My worker is wasting time building roads (that I hope will slow any barb invasion. He's covered by the starting warrior. I kept Osaka working the cottage and the forest for growth/production.

In 2620, Osaka grows to size 3, and works 2 grass forests and the flood cottage.

In 2530, Bronze is 16 turns away, and I know at least one AI who has already switched to Slavery.

In 2440, I'm only a few turns from the first archer (in Osaka), and a Worldbuilder check reveals barb animals, warriors and archers afoot!

Okay, I'm including the save from 2350. I have completed an archer in Osaka. I could have gotten the archer sooner by micromanaging at the expense of research. The flood cottage is now a hamlet pulling in 3 commerce (includes one from the river) per turn. I think barbs were locally kept under control by wandering AI units, who never gave me any trouble.

Bronzeworking is just 10 turns away, and a new settler is 25 turns away (or Osaka could grow to its happy max of 4 in 4 turns)! We are at +13gpt at 0% research.

Thoughts in the next post.

Okay, even though it's almost (?) too late, I wanted to bring this up: going Pottery and Worker first in an immediately-settled Osaka is a valid strategy!

In 2350, Kyoto pulls in 19 commerce, and if needed, Osaka pulls in 8 by working the coast and the cottage.

Barb archers almost immediately came at the city, and when one stumbled on the cottage, it pillaged that before attacking the city. So, this is not an option without risk, but it is viable.

My personal thinking is that we should still use the Settler to find a better site, if there are any, because having archers on sentry duty will be very helpful for protecting our improvements.

But I wanted to throw this out there for discussion.

PS: Note that I haven't run the no-settle, Archery-first case for comparison.

Its not a bad plan, but I'm not the biggest fan of the cottage being pillaged right away. There is also still the maintenance problem right at the get go. Once again, it will have to come down to chance. Will we find a better settling spot by exploring? Or should we not take that chance and settle right away?

EDIT - Post #100 :)

Its not a bad plan, but I'm not the biggest fan of the cottage being pillaged right away. There is also still the maintenance problem right at the get go. Once again, it will have to come down to chance. Will we find a better settling spot by exploring? Or should we not take that chance and settle right away?

EDIT - Post #100 :)

I hope the high post count means that regoarrarr is getting the thought and discussion he'd hoped for, even if the humor is painful. :lol:

I agree with Kodii and still think that exploring a bit with the settler is a good idea. I kind of expected the barb archer to leave the cottage alone and attack, but it pillaged even though another barb archer had weakened my defenses (albeit not much) on the same turn.

In fact, I now think there were 3 take-home lessons from this little experiment:

1) Founding on a plains hill for the extra shield would be very nice.

2) It's painful, but I think we're going to be limited to the first ring of our big fat cross for quite a while. It was weird to be limited to one cottage because of forests in the way!

3) Depending on where we find to settle, we'll have to decide between Mining/Bronze and Pottery after Archery. If we have high food--and we probably do--we'll probably want Slavery, but if we want to expand any more, we'll want Pottery.

This is going to be fun, gang!

I'd be in favour of delaying and hunting for a better site - even if it turns out not to be optimal, we'll be able to say we tried something more interesting to start off with, and what more can you want?

Then again, if it turns out awful in your shadow run then it might not be the best idea... :)

I'll play in about 2-3 more hours - do we want to consider settling in place?

Also, did we ever get a consensus about whether or not workboat or warrior 2nd was best?

I'll play in about 2-3 more hours - do we want to consider settling in place?

Also, did we ever get a consensus about whether or not workboat or warrior 2nd was best?

Go ahead and look around for a bit before you settle, though you'll probably want to be settled around turn 10.

In Kyoto, workboat first, warrior second, then more workboats. On turn 8 or so, Kyoto's borders will pop and the team will want to see if any more coast is revealed!

Good luck regoarrarr, and keep us updated!

Continuing on with regoarrarr's summary posts, we should add a category on Civics?

Yes I think a cat on civics sounds good. If anybody has a spare minute or two - feel free to post a summary post to recap

SUMMARY POST:

regoarrarr (up)
BeefontheBone (on deck)
EL_OSO
Kodii
Compromise
Ruff_Hi
Snaproll
Zalson

Diplomacy:
Unknown

Technology:
Hunting --> Archery

Depending on the situation, we will then go for Mining + Bronze Working, or Pottery

Settling:
Explore with the settler and warrior. Hopefully we can find a more ideal place to settle.

Builds:
Kyoto builds workboat, then warrior, then workboats

Religion:
Going for Confucianism (CoL) or Taoism (Philosophy)

Great People:
Run 2 scientists in Kyoto once we build a Library.

Civics:
Depending on our situation, we might want to go for BW and Slavery to start some whipping!

http://civfanatics.net/uploads12/4000.jpg

Okay I moved the warrior to the hill, and the settler SW-SW. Here's where we are after turn 1.

While I Don't expect to make turn-ly posts, at least that would bump our post count :lol:

I think it will be difficult to beat that spot with rice, SHEEP, and grassland gems. My initial leanings would be to move the settler 2E and the warrior to the pigs. If we find a better spot E of where the settler is, we could go for that, but other than that, make all haste to the aforementioned gems spot

I'll play some more in an hour or so after the kiddoes are in bed

Yowza! I recommend that we move to immediately settle the city, one north of the sheep. Having 3(!) valuable resource tiles=Very powerful. In addition, the gems should be able to support our economy, at least for a little bit. Maybe we should ammend the earlier order of research?

I'd recommend we go Mining (build a worker), the pottery, and then grabbing hunting and archery, building a few warriors to tide over until we can get archers. What do y'all think?

Yeah I think we definitely need to decide if we want to keep on Hunting / Archery or go directly to Mining. One question to consider though as well is whether or not we will be able to defend the Gems mine from barbs?

Going to Mining also leaves us open to just research BW next.

FYI, here are the times to research various techs -
Mysticism - 10 turns
Agriculture - 12
Pottery - 13
Sailing - 16
Hunting - 8
Mining - 10

The other thing to consider is whether or not it's worth it to take a more roundabout way to the sheep site. Moving 2E, ENE, NE-N, N-NW, settle will take 5 turns, but explore more of the map (in case there's an even BETTER spot), vs. 4 turns to settle if we go 2NE, NE, NE-N, settle

I'm salivating over that plains hill site. That extra hammer can make a big difference in early build times. And gems often occur in patches.

I'd probably move the warrior SE on the hill to see if it's a great site or not, then base the Settler's moves on that. (If you want to go 2E, don't move 2E, move SE-NE instead!)

If we want that plains hill site, I recommend switching immediately to Mysticism so we can get going on an obelisk ASAP. The obelisk (and maybe a Worker start) can build while we research Archery. Then mining for the Gems. Then probably get to Animal Husbandry since that will enable chariots too.

Okay, gotta run, but I'll try to check back here periodically tonight.

Oh...and I don't think we have to commit to any research until after the first turn!

I really do like that plains hill site. It's probably worth the cheap tech and the minimal hammers it would take to get an obelisk.

I love (luuuuuv) plain hill cities, especially early in games. I like the idea of scouting with the Settler while moving back to that sheep, rice, gem site - feel free to take a slightly longer route to reveal more of the map. I would move the warrior N to reveal what is on the other side of the sheep, rice, gems. Coastal cities will be important for us to enable trade with our 'capital'.

You mean the plains hill site 2S of the sheep? I got caught up playing Epic 6 tonight, and now I have to go to bed, so I didn't play any more past that. Which is fine - we've talked about a lot of ideas here on what to move - this will give us another day or so to figure out what it is that we want to do

You mean the plains hill site 2S of the sheep? yup - that is the one.

Yes, Epic 6 rocks! (More would be spoilerish, so I'll leave it at that.)

I like ruff_hi's idea of moving the warrior northish, I'd probably say NE to try to reveal as many black squares as possible. That will still reveal some coast.

And, I'd probably take the Settler SE-SE on the next move, then make my way back to that plains hill site (yes 2S of the sheep). That's my favorite spot so far; it even has a floodplains!

Good work stopping for discussion, regoarrarr. This is exactly the kind of thing that I didn't think other teams did in SGOTM1, and I think it hurt them. (As I recall, the two I read who did the best both moved to a plains hill to start.)

That all sounds great to me. Slowly make our way back to the plains hill with the settler to see if we can reveal any other things. Settling on that plains hill reminds me of Sirian's opening start to Epic 4. As for Epic 6, I'd better continue playing before I run out of time :lol:

From that one turn, here is an updated list of techs we're going to want to get, but not in an order:

Mysticism - Obelisk - If we found on the plains hill
Mining - For gems and for BW
AH - For swimming sheep
Agriculture - For rice
Hunting + Archery - Archers

Of course, we'll need Mysticism before the worker skills. Since Osaka will need the time to build an obelisk and worker (and units in between), we won't need those worker skills for a while. I'd suggest we go for Mysticism, then for Hunting and Archery before moving on to grab Mining, then BW or other worker techs. Getting Mysticism now also brings us one step closer to getting CoL, which we'll want for a religion.

Also, founding Osaka on a plains hill does wonders against the early barbs. I recall defending three barb warriors on a single turn with just a defending warrior in Epic 4. We may be able to survive with just a single warrior, or two in the early stages until we get Archery.

Good work stopping for discussion, regoarrarr. This is exactly the kind of thing that I didn't think other teams did in SGOTM1, and I think it hurt them. (As I recall, the two I read who did the best both moved to a plains hill to start.)


Err... have we compromised our integrity here?

Err... have we compromised our integrity here?

:)

Hey! I'm trying to learn from the mistakes of others! (Of course, the fact that they did so well means that they didn't make too many mistakes! Maybe they weren't even mistakes, but I merely perceived them as such. Could be my mistake. It usually is. :mischief: )

Oh, and "compromised" should be capitalized! :lol:

The whole word should be capitalized if I'd looked at the SGOTM2 threads!

As for the game...It seems to me that we need 3 types of troops in the very early game (before we go on the offensive). 1) City garrison: until axemen show up, I think a single archer promoted along the city garrison line will be fine. 2) Fog busters: Warriors are fine. But we'll have to see what the layout is here to see if it's better to actually do this or to use more 3) strike force: archers are okay, and we'll want to talk about the promotion route. Chariots are better: good mobility and strong against archers. In RB19, however, my experience was that I killed them far too frequently using them on offense. So, I think we'll want copper.

Those Gems are a god(Gyathaar?)send. They'll make it possible to get another city out as soon as we know where to put it. I think we'll be more limited by what we can protect rather than what we can improve. It's rough that we need three different techs to improve the rice, the sheep, and the gems.

With the Gems and the lower food, I suspect we can delay Pottery for a bit, but I'm certainly willing to be convinced that I'm wrong about that.

Note that both of the food resources we've found so far are only +2 food when improved, so it's not like we'll be rolling in food for the whip. But who knows what lies beneath the fog? Only the Shadow knows! (Uh, not the shadow game though.) And 2 times +2F is +4F, it's just that those are two cottages not getting worked.

The whole word should be capitalized if I'd looked at the SGOTM2 threads!

*sighs with relief* Apparently we've been Compromised, but only in the nicest way possible.

If we're gonna found on the plains hill, then I recommend the following tech order: Mysticism (while building a worker; this will probably take a little bit) then to either Agriculture or Mining. Which one is cheaper?

After Agri or Mining, I'd say we pick up the next one (we can build our warrior BarbWatch forces), by next one, I mean the one we neglected, so that we can get some either commerce or food. Then, I'd go pottery, and head over to hunting/archery right after that.

Hopefully by then, the barb safety net will... keep us safe. If you guys don't want that much economic development, so early, I'd say that we should then try to slip hunting/archery in after mining, and then hit agriculture before animal husbandry, finally getting pottery.

These are only estimations. I think it would really help if we could get some cash from a hut, to allow us to roll big research at the start; but don't risk p-oed villagers... what a conundrum.

One slight concern with that spot is that it wastes those fish - not a big thing since we have another lot. The plains hill does look pretty tasty though :)

Is rice +2F or +1F when irrigated?

Zalson: I'm not sure if we need Mining/Agriculture quite so fast after Mysticism. Osaka will need the time to settle, build an obelisk AND build a worker before Mining would be of any use. I suggest Mysticism-Hunting-Archery-Mining, if we can fit that all in before the worker is built. After that, we should probably go for AH, because if I'm not mistaken, sheep provide more food than rice does. Then Pottery and Agriculture, maybe BW in between. Then we're going to want to make our way to CoL if we want to found Confucianism.

Here are the tech speeds

Mysticism - 10 turns
Agriculture - 12
Pottery - 13
Sailing - 16
Hunting - 8
Mining - 10

Mysticism will take 10 turns at current speeds, and remember that once we settle, our research is just about halved. After we settle, an obelisk is 45 hammers, so if we settle on a plains hill, and work the grass forest, it will take 15 turns for the obelisk to complete, and then another 15 for the borders to expand.

We have the wheel, so a worker wouldn't be completely out of the question before we get Mining (since it could road our resources), but we're goign to want mining before too long (base gems is 2/0/1, improved mine is 2/1/6 I believe.

The other thing to consider is that start spot (with 3 resources right in a row) looks staged, i.e. added by Gyaathar. So he may "want" us to settle there, since other, now hidden, resources may be there (copper, horses, etc)

Compromise (or anyone) - care to get an updated shadow game going?

Another thing I'd like to consider is settling ON one of those resources. What's the center tile look like if you settle on a gems?

ETA: Sheesh - I search for "settling on resources" and I get everyone's SGOTM2 threads. I'm really not trying to be spoilery, really!

ETA again: Looks like settling on the gems makes it a 2/1/3 tile - http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=commercebonus2no.jpg

ETA again again: To be complete, settling on the sheep or rice make them a 3/1/1 tile,
http://img507.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foodbonus8sd.jpg

I have to say our post to turns played ratio is exquisite. I posted my 1/2 turn on post #108, so this post now represents a 34:1 post to turns played ratio!!

Now if that gem was on a plains hill, then settling on it would make it a 2/2/3 :crazyeye: city tile. I don't think it is worth settling on the gems. I would guess that some nice person put the gems there to help offset the maintenance costs.

Generally speaking, the conventional wisdom is that you only want to found a city on a resource that a) is a pretty bad tile improvement, e.g. elephants, incense, etc., or b) is a resource you don't want to have pillaged, e.g. oil or aluminum.

Didn't uberfish settle on a plains hill near, but not on, the gold mine in Epic 4? I seem to recall that he did quite well keeping up in research as a result.

One nice thing about the resources--and I include the floodplain as a resource too--is that they are on the same side of the rivers as our citadel site! That might mean the barbs will attack them by crossing the river, thus incurring an attack penalty.

I think an immediate switch to Mysticism is the way to go. With some luck, maybe the obelisk will bring Copper into our city's cross before too long. At least it will give us some flexibility for the placement of our next city, if we have to found one.

Looking at the warrior, it's tough to see how it will be very productive in the next few turns. This is largely because the hill has revealed a lot already and the tiles north and east look like mostly forest, which won't be a good extremely-early-game resource. I guess just NE, NE, NE then reevaluate to reveal as many squares as possible, since we'll want to expose as much land as possible to find Copper when we get Bronze.

For techs, my thought now is: Mysticism, Hunting, Archery, Mining, Bronzeworking, Pottery in that order. (Maybe Pottery after Mining, I'm not sure.) Unless we discover another food source in range of the plains hill, improving either the Rice or the Sheep is only going to give us a +2F tile, and with the floodplain and the rice, we've already got 2 +1F tiles to work for growth. A Granary will probably get us just as much food as improving the tiles. (Note: I might be wrong here because of health cap issues. It depends on how many forests we have.)

Note: to get another +1F from the rice, we'll need to farm the square north of the sheep on the river after Civil Service. But that's a long way away right now.

I think the build order in Osaka should be: Obelisk, start Worker, Archer (when Archery completes), finish Worker. But I'll probably want to shadow-test that build order. Depending on when our worker techs come online, it might be better to complete the Worker first.

@regoarrarr: Did you queue up workboat, warrior, workboat in Kyoto?

With the Gems, our happy cap in this city will be 5, just like our unconnected capital. Improving the rice and building a granary will give us just as much health as improving the rice and the sheep. That leads me to think that Agriculture should be after Pottery above.

Final note: Now I can see why one team posted a save after just one turn!

Will the gems affect the happy cap in Kyoto? I thought that it wouldn't be connected to the trade network.

Okay, so let's assume 4 turns to settle Osaka. That means 4 turns of 100% research, which leaves us 6 turns of full research to get Mysticism. Since after founding we're now at 50% research, that will be 12 turns till we get Mysticism.

Hunting will be another 16 turns, and Archery another 24 after that (slightly lower as Kyoto grows and works another 2C tile).

Judging from that, it seems like delaying the settler seems like a smarter move, since it allows us to get Mysticism sooner, which would allow us to start the obelisk immediately upon founding Osaka. Though I'm not sure we want to wait 10 turns to found though...

I don't think the Gems will affect Kyoto, but they will help Osaka.

I agree that there's no rush to get the settler settled and drop our research; but with the gems there, there's no big push to delay either. Take the exploratory route back to the plains hill. Start a worker until we get Mysticism if needed. That will probably mean we'll want to complete the Worker before building our archer so as not to lose hammers.

I'm sure there will also be a flood of barbarians from the north at some point (if there is a lot of fogged land up there), so we're going to want defenders/strikers as soon as possible, judging whether or not the barbs come before the worker. If we really want chariots, we're going to want horses - Animal Husbandry. If we want to go straight to axemen, we're going to want copper - Bronze Working. Of course, we don't know if we have either of these. Therefore, I'm going to go play Epic 6. :lol:

SUMMARY POST

(Ratio of 4:1, 4 Summary Posts for every turn :lol: )

regoarrarr (still up)
BeefontheBone (on deck)
EL_OSO
Kodii
Compromise
Ruff_Hi
Snaproll
Zalson

Diplomacy:
Has anyone checked the Victory page? EDIT- We have seven (7) opponents

Techonology:
Mysticism -> Hunting -> Archery -> Mining -> BW? Pottery? -> AH? Agriculture? -> Writing?

Settling:
To the plains hill we go! Of course, we're still doing some exploring to see if there are any better spots, or if there is a better spot around the three resources.

Builds:
Kyoto - Workboat, Warrior, Workboat...
Osaka - Obelisk, Partial Worker, Archer, Worker

Religion:
Still going for Confucianism or Taoism?

Great People:
Run scientists in Kyoto after libraries (Writing)

Civics:
Depending on how food is going, we're going to want to switch to Slavery after getting BW. Other civics are too far to consider just yet.

After spending most of an hour catching up I'm on board with the current plan, with a few minor points.

I'm not completely convinced that plains hills are *always* the best starting plot. Yes, they are very powerful, and I often settle on them as well. But, if after scouting, we may find that there aren't many more hills in the area, and remember that although 2 hammers on the starting tile is awful nice, you are sacrificing the long-term production capability of that tile (4 hammers). All I'm saying is that lets make sure we have some more productive tiles available to us before settling that hill. If there are several more plains hills around then I'm all for it.

I thought about that low productivity too, Snaproll. I'm pretty sure it's okay in this situation, though. My reasoning is: 1) we've got at least one grasslands hill we can mine. 2) Slavery is an efficient means of converting food to hammers, and we've got +5F by working the rice, the sheep and a cottage on the floodplains. 3) I'm thinking we'll want good commerce in Osaka, then good production in Tokyo (the 3rd city, IIRC), which will probably have a Copper mine at the least.

After that, I think we're hoping to find cities which will largely support themselves and pump out troops for us. I doubt if we'll research past Ironworking, Construction, and (probably) Astronomy.

But you're right, it won't help to look around a bit more.

If these ratios of Posts/Summaries to actual game turns keeps up, we will all be blacklisted as spammers. Maybe they will add an award category. Maybe they'll give us a little exhibit here:

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/5316/spammuseumgj2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Argh, let's play already! *Throws hands up into the air and runs away screaming, similar to the martian in War of the Worlds*

Ahem... I meant that... slightly humorously. I would like to play eventually. Not that this discussion is bad, but I think we need to adopt a plan and stick to it. I'd recommend mining before hunting, simply because it will allow us to get hunting faster. If the team doesn't agree, that's fine. But c'mon, guys!:eek: :D :lol:

I think we're waiting for regoarrarr to get home from work and ignore his kids so he can play. :)

I'm okay--actually, I like it a lot; more turns of an improved tile--with Mining before Hunting, especially since we'll probably get a Worker before we get an Archer.

How will Mining allow us to get Hunting faster?

It won't. But it will improve our research rate because we'll be able to work the Gems sooner in Osaka.

How long would it take to settle Osaka, build the obelisk and then the worker, though? At the same time, how long would it take to research Mysticism, Hunting then Archery? It doesn't matter, lets just get things moving :lol:

I doubt if we'll research past Ironworking, Construction, and (probably) Astronomy.Forget about playing (or not), I want to know why the game will be over after we finish with these techs - are we just giving up or ...

I'm home now, but won't be able to play until after I get home from basketball tonight. Actually, depending on how late it is and how tired I am, it might even be till TOMORROW night till I can play :satan:

As for why the game will be over after Astronomy, it's because we're going for fastest conquest.

It's going to take 30ish turns before our borders expand, so no need for Mining until then. Actually, Mysticism / Mining might work out just well - we'll have to see what it looks like after Mysticism comes in.

Or maybe I'll just play another turn and then post and then wait till tomorrow :lol:

As for why only those techs:

First, because AlanH will call the game over long before we get any more turns run. :lol:

But in all likelihood, if it's not too difficult to get to every other civ, e.g. all are on the second continent, then we should be able to take out everybody with catapults and swords/axes. Astronomy is in case we have to cross the ocean.

This is only Monarch, after all.

Edit: Crossposted with regoarrarr. Go ahead, take your time.

Take your time, regoarrarr. If you can play just one turn, that'd be great too. Another turn should keep us occupied for a week or two :lol:

Maybe having the slowest start will mean we'll have the fastest finish? ;)

I'm predicting that the game will last 5 turns. On the fifth turn, we will reach the plains hill with the settler and there will be a bear right there.

It should be fine though, because by then it will be mid-October.

Okay okay you folks. I'm tired, but I'm committed to the cause! So, at the expense of our posts/turns ratio, here's a few turns.

First off, I change to Mysticism as suggested. I then hit enter. I move the Settler SE, and then we have

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/duh1.jpg

I think we're being hit over the head as to where is the best place to settle. I move the settler NE and then the warrior 1 hill down the chain and

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/duh2.jpg

Yeah I think the place to settle is pretty obvious. I move the settler onto the hill 1S of the gold. The plan was to then move NE-NW onto the settling spot, which would be just as good as moving onto the gold hill and then the settling hill, but expose more of the terrain.

But then I see this

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/hut.jpg

I figure, with all the obvious help that has been given to us, this hut was probably pre-programmed with something good. Maybe even a settler! So I take a risk and pop it with the settler.

It was barbs. They ate our settler :(

The good news is that we're still in the game. Plus, without the drain of a 2nd city, we'll probably tech pretty quickly. I stop here to give us a chance to figure out what we want to do. Sorry about that guys!

Oh, about that whole our settler getting eaten by barbs part, that was a lie :lol: I should have paused more for dramatic effect, but I've got to go to bed and I didn't have the heart to leave the joke running all the way till (my) morning, in case somebody did something crazy.

Instead I