Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 2 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4354542) for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

This game will be played in Civ4, patched to v1.61.

You are cast in the role of Tokugawa, mighty leader of the Japanese. Tokugawa's brother has left the island city of Kyoto to avenge the death of his wife and only son. He has travelled to a distant land without finding their murderer. So the brother of Tokugawa will settle and found a new Japanese colony, and the Japanese have sworn to conquer the rest of civilization in order to hunt down and destroy their enemy.

The game is on a Standard size fractal map, modified as only Gyathaar knows how, at Epic speed. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the fastest teams to achieve a Conquest victory. The number of AI rivals has not yet been revealed. It will be played using version 1.61 of Civ4 with locked modified assets.

Individual start files for all teams will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of August 8th.

Here's the start position.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/SGOTM02_start.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Tokugawa of Japan
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Fractal, hand modified
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - YES!
Barbarians - Raging!!

Please visit the following link to ensure that you are adequately prepared:
Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439)

Notes:

A. ONLY Civilization IV v1.61 is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - victory will be awarded for the fastest victory by Conquest.

C. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

I'm sure you'll enjoy this game :D

Some strategy discussion, guys! Make sure we beat those "Blackies" in terms of the number of posts!!!!

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Toku is Agressive and Organized, starts with fishing and mining.

Settling in place seems like a bad idea, which is one tile away from coast. I would suggest moving one tile NW to get the fish and rice. With two food resources, it will be a good site.

With Fishing, I guess the best start would be to start with Work Boat, and learn Hunting (for scouts), while building warrior.

--

Concur with moving 1NW. Also unlocks that floodplain, so 3 bonus food tiles.

Just as well there's good commerce potential at the new city - I wonder what the upkeep will be from Kyoto.

Raging barbies! (Archery?).

Question: what do we do with the trees? Only 1 visible hill so they are providing valuable production; on the other hand they will be surrounding the city (not good for defense).

Hmmm. One further thought: Kyoto is the capital, right? So that means we are going to get hammered for distance upkeep for every city we found on this side of the world?

Ok, I'm going to start with random thoughts:

Hmmm. One further thought: Kyoto is the capital, right? So that means we are going to get hammered for distance upkeep for every city we found on this side of the world?

1) YES! That was my first thought when I saw this map... as soon as settle the second city, we're going to get hit with city maintenance costs... and it's going to drop our research rate immediatly. (Unless TPTB give us some gold, which I doubt...)

2) Kyoto is going to have a grand total of 2 hammers production. Until we get to slavery, we basically can't build anything. However, with all the food, we can :whipped: the hell out of it.

3) When we settle city #2, we have no way to generate culture for it until we can build an obelisk. (or move the Palace!)

4) Moving 1 NW looks like a good idea. I would not want to chop too many trees here, because there is only one hill to mine. We will want to have as much production possible here.

To me, all this makes for quite a handicap at the start. I think we really need to weigh our options for research... We can either go for mysticiam for an obelisk, or bronze working to get slavery.

Other thoughts?

Hello people!

Nice to let me join your SGTOM2-Team. If I screw up you can always pick on Cosmichail for letting me in. :p

This start is something out of the ordinary.

Kyoto is our capital but by no means our main city. But I think we still can get some good things out of it. Commerce is quite obvious, that’s all you can get from the sea.
:whipped: can get a lot of production. So BW should definitely be prioritised.

Our second city (Tokyo) will only have its original 8 tiles to work with from the start. So you have to think differently from a regular game. I think we should move our warrior SW to see what we can get there. If we don’t have anything special to our west I believe settling NW is a good move. FP is great for growth, equal to unirrigated rice, and some commerce. Four grassland forests give us some production. All in all it’s a decent city without worker improvements.

Maybe we can whip Stonehenge in Kyoto for :culture: in Tokyo? Raging Barb will give us some extra time in building Henge. If we research mining-BW->mysticism I believe we can get it.

The safest way to go is probably to go for hunting->archery-mining->BW. Archers makes a huge difference against raging barbs, although our free combat1 will help a bit.

Re the Kyoto, once we get bureacracy, we could shift the palace to somewhere else to reduce upkeep. But that is a tad far away.

Concur on saving the trees.

Re: rage barbies: those who played in VQ08 would have some expereince on Emperor rage barbs, so archery is almost a definite need by 2800BC (when barbs starts to appear). So I agree on Hunting -> Archery -> Mining -> BW -> argiculture (for rice)

Just so that we know who is on whioh team (I was a bit confused and had to double check to ensure I don't post on the wrong thread :crazyeye:)

Maquis -- Red Leader
GreyFox
Scowler -- Red Scribe (I'll teach you to blame me)
Codeman
armstrong
Krockel

Welcome, Krockel! As for Codeman, think I have played with you before. But also, welcome!

So I agree on Hunting -> Archery -> Mining -> BW -> argiculture (for rice)

Can't farm the rice unless we get those borders popped. So Mysticism would be more useful, I think - or were you planning to farm the FP?

Oh, right, we are not the capital, so there won't be free culture pop :sad:

That means the fish has to wait too .... Damned!

Totally wasting our starting tech of fishing ... am I the only one who is starting to hate the moderators? :mischief:

SO we have to rethink the strategy ... may be we should settle closer to the rice, move 1NW then 1 NE, moving us 2N to settler beside the rice. Then we go Argiculture (worker first) followed by hunting archery mining BW.

Another strategy is not to settle first, there by saving us the distanc ecost, and wanders around with our settler and warrior until we find a better spot?

-

SO we have to rethink the strategy ... may be we should settle closer to the rice, move 1NW then 1 NE, moving us 2N to settler beside the rice. Then we go Argiculture (worker first) followed by hunting archery mining BW.


Farm rice will give 4/0/0, farm FP will give 4/0/1. So I think it's better to settle nere FP then rice. We get both if we settle 1N and concerning just the initial 8 tiles for a city we also have a hill there, so that's quite nice. We miss the fish though.

Man it's tricky to settle when boarder won't pop by default. :crazyeye:
We either can get a good placement in the short term or in the long term, but to get both at once seams to be harder. :cry:


Another strategy is not to settle first, there by saving us the distanc ecost, and wanders around with our settler and warrior until we find a better spot?


I like that idea. It would be real nice to find a plain hill to settle on for extra production and defence. To bad we don't have a scout though :(

I was thinking of the idea not to settle immediatly also. Just to be sure, would it be better to research with only one city (Kyoto) and keep the slider to 100%, or found City #2 and have the slider drop to 80% (or maybe 70%)?

Would the second city add some beakers to offset the reduced research rate?


I'm thinking of building a simulation in worldbuilder later tonight to see what the differences are in settling vs walking the settler around...

(I'm assuming this is ok, since people create "test starts" in the normal GOTM all the time!)

I'm assuming this is ok, since people create "test starts" in the normal GOTM all the time!
You did that in SGOTM1 and it was ok back then.

:salute: dot is reporting as the official lurker and think tank initiator for team VQ Red. I hereby declare that I will not view any other team thread of the current SGOTM2 - unless VQ Red is done with it. In what way ever ... :mischief: ;)


##### :scan: ##### Some thinking ##### :scan: #####


All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the fastest teams to achieve a Conquest victory.
Whatever you plan: Keep this in mind!

One further thought: Kyoto is the capital, right? So that means we are going to get hammered for distance upkeep for every city we found on this side of the world?
YES! That was my first thought when I saw this map... as soon as settle the second city, we're going to get hit with city maintenance costs... and it's going to drop our research rate immediatly. (Unless TPTB give us some gold, which I doubt...)
Another strategy is not to settle first, there by saving us the distanc ecost, and wanders around with our settler and warrior until we find a better spot?
I like that idea. It would be real nice to find a plain hill to settle on for extra production and defence. To bad we don't have a scout though :(
What about using the settler as a scout for 4 to 6 turns. Usually animals don't appear on the first turns. At least I've never found that. So you will have about half a dozen of turns with 100% :science: and you'll have time to find a really good settling point. ###
The big danger is that meeting another civ early might be your sudden death since the AI is set to aggressive. :sad:

Researchwise I'd go for BW immediately. Maybe even try to get that before settling Tokyo? :eek: Otherwise it might take a lot of turns more. IIRC it's pretty expensive to research it as tech#1.

As for :whipped: Kyoto ... you'll need to whip four work boats first. And currently ... and therefore always ... they'll take some 23 turns to come out of the dock. My guess is that you'll be busy with whipping the work boats until - let's say - 2000BC?!. :dubious: ... Oh ... and what are you gonna do about your :)? Health shall not be the problem there. But happiness is something else.

As for moving the units. If you're deciding on 'scouting' I'd say settler 1NW-1SW and warrior 1E.

Would the second city add some beakers to offset the reduced research rate?
I'd assume yes. But as for how much ... Gold or silver might be of quite some help. And therefore you might want to scout with your settler and warrior. But you'll be able to enlighten us after your workbuilder job, Maquis ;).

Man it's tricky to settle when boarder won't pop by default.
Yeah that's making me feel a bit uneasy, too. But the main question might be what you really need to have inside the nine tiles of Tokyo. Some river and maybe some precious metal would do the trick researchwise. Another opportunity would be to settle at a side where Tokyo will become an early production powerhouse. Like with building barracks, hooking up some copper and going after the first other civ right away.

But that is all to be seen once the save is up. As for now ... we don't even know the number of AI civs, do we? I'd say do some of brainstorming and discussing until the save is up. By then let everybody have a close look at it. Oh ... maybe a second look at it? - OK. - Now let's do some of brainstorming and discussing :D.

So these are my 2 :commerce:. Hope you like having me as a lurker.

Regards, .

-----------------------------------------------------

EDIT: Tokugawa starts with fishing and the wheel. So this would make my choice of BW first redundant. That would be too risky ... methinx.

Welcome dot!

Good, we have an official lurker. :D

But, damn: VQ Black is already at page 2, and one other team is already at page 3!!!! :gripe: We have to buck up guys!

--

I concur with coming up a with test game ... we did that in SGOTM1 too. All we nee dto find out is the distance cost? How much is it if we settler Tokyo so far away? Problem is how to estimate accurately the relative position between Kyoto and our settler. You can try to do it from the minimap, but its kind of fuzzy (since minimaps scale deynamically). However, since on the minimap, the white dot can be seen clearly as a suare, it suggest that the current scale of the minimap is quite large, so I think actually Kyoto and the settler is not that far away.

We have to settle at a place where at the maximum, at size 2, we could recover back the distance cost. Else, wandering a bit might be more useful.

--

Ok, here's what I played around with WB... I created a replica of Kyoto, and have the warrior/settler pair at what I think is an approximate distance.

Assuming I'm fairly close in the settler placement, we'd get -3 maintenance cost when founding the second city. This would cause our research rate to go down to 90% in my test. Assuming we start with Hunting, it'd take one extra turn of research to get it.

I think that we need to get Mysticism early, as we'll want to start generating culture ASAP. Unless we move the settler around a bit, we'd need it to take advantage of any resources.

It goes without saying, it'd be nice to find a luxury resource nearby...


Here's the save I made in worldbuilder... and yes, I SUCK at making rivers...

Thanks for that, Maquis. That was useful in getting some practical idea of the situation. But bloody hell, I hope we have better luck in the actual game - Bismarck, Asoka, Peter, and Genghis all within spitting distance!! :lol:
(Oh, and you forgot the raging barbies... ;) )

Some more random thoughts:

It's difficult to judge, but I think you've been optimistic regarding the distance between Kyoto and [Tokyo]. I did a worst-case scenario, placing Kyoto as far away as possible, and it looked more like what is on the picture at the top. That gave us -9 (!!!) maintenance when founding [Tokyo], increasing to -11 after growing to size 2. I don't think things will be quite that bad here, but I suspect that we won't gain a turn on research if we found right away as is the case with your version.

(BTW, I also found out that building just one more city in this "worst case" would completely cripple us, taking us to -7gpt at 0% science... The good news is that you are allowed to keep a single garrison unit in each city, even if the rest of your units have disappeared on strike... :crazyeye: )

So the big question is: do we settle right away or not? I must admit I'm very tempted by the idea of scouting briefly (until Hunting is ready in 8 turns) to check out the surrounding area. But that has very obvious dangers, of course. Not just the animals (which, as dot pointed out, should leave us alone for the first 6-8 turns), but also the tempting goodie huts. In a test game I popped one with the settler and got... 3 barb warriors! :eek: Fortunately I still had a movement point left and was able to outrun them, but they were still a nuisance that affected the founding location later. Just something to bear in mind ;)

I'm also worried about the lack of production at the starting site. From Maquis' save we managed to get an archer ready just in time for the barb assault, but there wasn't much time to spare. Somewhere with better production would be nice - I'd definitely prefer to concentrate on production rather than food (at least 'til BW is in, which will be quite a while...). And given that BW will take a long time, I agree that Mysticism should be collected sooner rather than later.

... ... ... Yes ... ... ...

#######################

Edit:

Could you upload your save scowler ... to let us see what you've been playing around with?

And where are armstrong and Krockel Codeman. They didn't report to your teamthread yet ... :mischief: ... You haven't lost them on your way from Kyoto to this continent ... did ya? ;)

Maquis, I agree with scowler, seems like your test-map is too close.

This is cropped from the posted image of the official game:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/sgotm02-minimap.jpg

This is from the test game you created:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/maquis-test.jpg

Way too close I think.

--

I expanded the minimap from the official save, assuming the square dot to be one tile (I think it should be), here is what I get:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/sgotm02-minimap-grid.jpg

That is like 30 tiles away :eek:
-

I would suggest, if we want to move the settler for scouting instead of settling immediately, that we move the settler westward, so that we close the gap between Kyoto and Tokyo.

That is like 30 tiles away :eek:-

Then that should mean a maintenance cost of -6 (confirmed by this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=138473) thread)

Founding right away would take Hunting to 7turns, but we would have to drop to 60% science to break even meaning the actual figure is 11 turns (and remember the upkeep increases when Tokyo hits size 2).

Er, guys: it's a Fractal Map. That means it wraps. That means it's closer if you count going the opposite direction. I estimate that it's 10.


EDIT: Although the map hasn't been centered yet :hmm: maybe it's wider around than it looks?

Although the map hasn't been centered yet :hmm: maybe it's wider around than it looks?

I think so. I don't know whether it is the case with fractal, but according to Sirian's map guide the standard-sized Balanced, Islands, Archipelago, and Continents maps are 84 plots wide.

EDIT: of course this also assumes that the description we have been given actually matches the map we are playing...

I would suggest, if we want to move the settler for scouting instead of settling immediately, that we move the settler westward, so that we close the gap between Kyoto and Tokyo.
:clap: :thumbsup: ... and give praise and thanx to the old Fox. For he does marvelous reconstruction work. :D

I'm going to play my broken record one last time for each team:


Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=180489) for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

Anything I post there will NOT be repeated individually in every team thread. You may even find some useful information there now :p

AlanH, it's two - oh hold it - respectively one a clock in the morning ... and you're still working here?

:worship:

... and so are you :p

I'm going to play my broken record one last time for each team:


Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

Anything I post there will NOT be repeated individually in every team thread. You may even find some useful information there now :p

I think you referenced the "Reference Thread" instead of the "Maintenance Thread", Alan .... Heh, this suggest that perhaps working at 1AM is not so good afterall :lol:

-

You are correct. However, I think you take my point?

@ChrTh: It will be wider, minimap scales dynamically according to the known world by the player. I don't think the map is smaller than 50 tiles wide.

And, of-course, all these are moot:


Some late breaking news about your game:

1. We now know that there are seven rivals on the map (not including the barbs).

2. Much pixel-counting effort has been expended to try to work out the distance between Kyoto and the settler. To settle the debates, and to help your strategy discussions move forward, we'll divulge that the second city, if built where the settler stands, would cost 7 gpt in maintenance.

@AlanH, of-course, thanks! I sincerely do appreciate all your hard work .... I am just trying to be funny :) ... (and failing at that, it seems).

Nah! A failure of my sense of humour, not yours, in the face of 20 posts to edit :rolleyes:

Lurker
VQ-Red calling Codeman ... please report to the SGOTM2 thread and start spamming it. We have to thrash the blackies in terms of number of posts!!!! :lol:

reporting for duty, sir!:salute:

Good, everybody has posted now ... all we need is to wait for the save ... :sad:

What do everybody think of moving the settler westward to reduce the maintenance cost?

Hmmmm ... under the pretense that all moderators are evil (okay ... maybe not all, only Gythaar :D) ... I predict a ultra-super-duper agressive AI civ is just west of our settler.

i vote yes to exploring. more info is needed. anything else i could say has been said.

do we know for sure maint would be lower west and not east? could someoone explain more of why on a round (globe) it would be closer to go west?

Because we made the following assumptions (which are well-founded I think):
- based on my pixel-counting effort, we are 30 tiles away
- a standard map is usually 80 tiles wide

So if Kyoto is 30 tiles west of settler, it must be close to 50 tiles east of settler. So, Kyoto is closer westward rather than eastward.

--

okay. if it's a standard map and that 80, then i agree. but i also agree it's assumption, though i agree well founded as well.

that settled, we are closer west than east. let it be written! we have spoken-er written. :)

That leave us the daunting question of how are we going to surpass those other threads in terms of pure post count if all the strategy we can talk about has been settled :mischief:

Let's examine the roster :)

Maquis (Leader) -- North America
GreyFox -- Asia
Scowler (Scribe) -- Europe
Codeman -- North America
armstrong (Yet to Report) -- North America
Krockel -- Europe

Of-course our official lurker dot is from Europe as well.

I would suggest a swap between Scowler and Codeman to interleave players according to continent.

--

A nice mix of nationality in our roster. Nice! :)

Get -7 from founding Tokyo is just nasty. We need to move as far westward as possible to cut that cost. Preferebly we could settle next to a forrested plain hill and work that to avoid reaching size 2. But that's kind of defensive!

Hello there ... does anyone know what has happend to armstrong ... he hasn't shown up since two days in VQ07 and VQ08. Neither has he shown up around here yet. :scared:

@GreyFox: Thanks for mentioning the lurker as well!

As for the lack of discussion:
I'd say do some of brainstorming and discussing until the save is up. By then let everybody have a close look at it. Oh ... maybe a second look at it? - OK. - Now let's do some of brainstorming and discussing. :D

@AlanH (post #27 in this thread): :rolleyes: Obviously ... :lol: ;)

Regards to all, .

Maquis (Leader) -- North America
GreyFox -- Asia
Scowler (Scribe) -- Europe
Codeman -- North America
armstrong (Yet to Report) -- North America
Krockel -- Europe

(...)

I would suggest a swap between Scowler and Codeman to interleave players according to continent.
Well, if you leave the roster like it is you might be able to easily play 3 sets on the same evening! :dubious: From Maquis to Scowler or from GreyFox to Codeman! You might even easily play 4 sets within 24 hrs during the week :eek:! That would be truly VQ! :goodjob: :D

And as for moving the settler westwards ... I'm all for that. :thumbsup:

Minor fault: It seems like the settler and Kyoto are 31 tiles away from each other ... But maybe I got sth wrong there ... I didn't double-check.

Armstrong posted sth about maybe being oop here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4349127&postcount=324).

If he truly doesn't show up I'd like to step in as a player. But I will probably slow you down since the new job is eating up quite some of my time during the week. I have the OK from AlanH for stepping in. So the single remaining question would be if you're willing to have me as a team member!?

Anyhow I'd prefer armstrong to be able to take his place and me to stay here as a lurker. ;)

Regards, dot

As we have some evidence that armstrong is OOP, and we have a first reserve, I'll assume VQ Red will be OK, one way or another.

in regards to changing the roster (and adding one more post;)) i can swap if we want. doesn't matter to me. monday through friday i will not be able to play before around 7pm my time. on saturday and sunday's i should be okay. it's currently 9:36am here.

Ok, things are a little too quiet... especially since the save is going to be available tomorrow...

If I am going to be going first, I'd like to make sure I have a good idea what the plan is for the initial turns.

I am thinking: Do not settle immediatly. Move around a bit (west) so that we can attempt to find a nicer spot for second city.

Research: Hunting, Mysticism, Archery. Get Hunting forst for scouts, and then go for Mysticism. We will hopefully settle city #2 around this time, and start work on a scout. Once Mysticism is in, build oblesk and reseach Archery for defense.

I think I will play some of the turnset, and update when I find what I think is a suitable city site.

I feel like the settling of the second city is going to be critical in the game.

Any other thoughts? I am planning on playing (at least part) my turnset tomorrow morning...

Any other thoughts?

I assume that all of you agree on building a workboat in Kyoto?
Do not pop huts with a settler ... as if there would be any. Leave them to a warrior or whatever.
I want to re-state Krockel's (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4356269&postcount=7) idea about building and whipping the henge in Kyoto. That would save quite some turns from building these stupid (I'm sorry) obelisks in the beginning. *
How many turns are you going to play on your first sets ????????? Remember that you're playing on epic speed. ;)
After how many turns would it be good to have a first stop anyway? For further discussion maybe?
As for research: If you'd agree on Krockel's suggestion you'd need to get mining and BW asap ... Otherwise there'd be no whipping. But I doubt that this will have any effect on your first set of turns, Maquis. So hunting, mysticism, archery shall be fine with me.

The * from #3: It might also be an idea to try on a religion. But the henge would be more easily effective!

I did leave no comment on moving the settler westwards since it seems obvious to me that I would definitely agree with this. :mischief:

And finally - What about AH? If you have horses in your city you might be able to scout the continent with chariots. Especially with an all aggressive AI in mind ...

Regards, .

Edit:
It's half past eleven round here right now (GMT+2) and I have to get up at 6 AM tomorrow. But I think that I have a good idea. At least I think that it's worth discussing it. So I ask you, Maquis, to wait with settling until August 8th, 8 PM (GMT+2). I will see to post the idea until then in this thread. If you want to go ahead ... feel free. I'm just asking. :blush:

Edit:
It's half past eleven round here right now (GMT+2) and I have to get up at 6 AM tomorrow. But I think that I have a good idea. At least I think that it's worth discussing it. So I ask you, Maquis, to wait with settling until August 8th, 8 PM (GMT+2). I will see to post the idea until then in this thread. If you want to go ahead ... feel free. I'm just asking. :blush:

Quoted to make sure the thread is bumped for subscriptions.

I played around a bit with Maquis test save and made some attempts to get Stonehenge. For every attempt I tried different research orders and different builds for Kyoto. And guess what we got Stonehenge built on every attempt! :king:
The best I could come up with was....

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/4582/civ4screenshot0055tj5.th.jpg (http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0055tj5.jpg)

Two different attempts gave 1210 BC.

Regarding which research path to take the funny thing is that for Stonehenge whipping it's no big difference. Kyoto will be occupied with building a WB for 23 turns either way. After that I tried with warrior for happiness duty or workboat for clams and health bonus. These two alternatives are close to equal, but my gut feeling is that warrior is an better option. Kyoto will grow quite fast anyway. But as mentioned no big difference, BW will also come in and warrior/second workboat will get whipped.

Some other things noted:
- Kyoto has health cap at size 2. With fish and clam connected it goes up to 4.
- Happiness limit is 5.
- At size 5 will 5 water tiles bring in 10 commerce + 8 from palace + 1 from city tile = 19 gold.
- Kyoto can grow to size 8, after that unhealth will give a growth time of 54 turns. Granary and/or lighthouse will have effect though.
- There is absolutely no hurry to BW, cause for research it's better to have citizens to work sea squares then overwork the good old :whipped:

One thought did occur to me. If henge is possible to whip, then oracle are only 45 shields more! And that is a much more potent wonder to get! :)

Regarding Osaka, which are the second Japanese city, (Tokyo seams to be third or something :crazyeye:), the test didn't bring anything significant. Raging Barbs were off and I am not used to play with them on so I don't really know when they usually appears.

My gut feeling is that hunting->archery is a good option to start with. That will take about 16 turns and then we can found Osaka and start by building an archer right away.

I wonder what our own lurker has in mind. ;)

To answer Dot's questions:

Yes, I plan on building a workboat in the beginning. There is no point in building any military in Kyoto, since it is not reachable by military troops in the sailing age.

I would use the warrior for popping any huts.

Yes, Stonehedge in Kyoto is a possibility, but I don't think it will be in the build order in my turnset...

I am guessing I will play around 10 turns, and then give an update... could be less depending on what I find in the first few turns of scouting.

Okay, I'm here. :dance: Basically, I was at my parents' new home (housesitting while they're on vacation) and... they didn't have any internet access yet. I thought they would, but no, so I couldn't reach the boards for a few days. :)

Some thoughts in a moment...

Okay, some thoughts -

1. While BW isn't a huge hurry, it will be very helpful for Kyoto. Even growing into unhealthiness and unhappiness, I figure it can grow up to exactly size 10 (with current happiness cap of 5.) That's some serious production power - we can whip it from that state to size 5 for 150 hammers, or 225 with a forge. That means we can pretty much instantly build any infrastructure in the city we want.

1a. We can use the spillover from whips to build stuff. Here's an example:

We have Hereditary Rule & a forge. We start an axeman in Kyoto with no spillover, and put two hammers into it. Next turn, we whip it. It costs 1 population to whip, and gives us 1 unhappy that's counteracted by the axer. We get 60 hammers, of which 31 go to the axer and 29 spillover. We set production for the spillover to a wonder, collected the 29 hammers and 2 from the city, along with 7 from the forge. Start a fresh axe, rinse and repeat. We're accumulating massive unhappiness only countered by the axe (which we have to pay upkeep for) but we're getting 38 hammers every 2 turns. If we have the 100% bonus material for the wonder, we get 69 hammers every two turns. That very good early game production - we could use it to quickly build the GLib and Globe in Kyoto, after which we could disband all the axers.

Once we have Globe in Kyoto, we can disband the axers immediately.

1b. I mentioned build Globe + GLib in Kyoto. Kyoto makes an odd GP farm. It's fine on the food, but the problem is that we can't use the resulting GP for anything that requires them to hit the mainland until we get Optics. So no academies/retired folks outside of Kyoto itself. However, we can use them to research techs, which is a damn fine use in my book. There's no good reason not to whip a quick library in Kyoto and pop a GS for Philosophy (ideally through the Drama route, since Bureacracy is not very useful pre-Palace move.)

Phew, thought #2 coming up! (might as well spread 'em out!)

2. Okay, on the "palace" issue and settling right away. If we settle right away, we'll get 8C (palace) + 2C (city centers) + 2C (fish) + 1 C (flood plain) = 13 commerce. With a -7 distance cost, that'd give us 6C/turn. 50% less than if you don't have a +1C commerce tile to work right away, but still passable. However, Tokugawa is one of the "cottage class" - leaders who can research pottery right off the bat. We could research Pottery before our worker finishes and quickly cottage the flood plain. That will give us another commerce and a even a single early cottage can be huge.

2a. However, we absolutely MUST move the Palace asap! We can not afford an second -7 distance hit. We need that Palace moved before we build our second settler. Because of this, I think getting early production in our first city is critical - and - given the lack of border expansions, that means we need hills within our "thin cross." We can also chop forests to speed it along. Once our palace is moved, we basically have a single liability - Kyoto - which can pay for itself. I think spending a couple of turns to speed up the Palace move is critical.

2b. However, we have Raging Barbarians. That means we're going to need some defense while building the palace. Archery is the way to go here, I think, unless we're lucky and have Bronze in our "thin cross." I doubt we will, though, so to be safe we want that as one of our early techs...

2c. This leaves me really confused about the proper tech path. I'd like to get Oracle for Metal Casting to ensure we get Colossus, but on Monarch/Raging Barbs/need to move Palace I don't see it happening. Rather, I think Pottery (to recover our tech rate) -> Mining -> Hunting -> Archery is the way to go.

2d. Because of the palace move, I don't think delaying settling our settler that much is a wise idea. We want to drop it early and start building Palace (and some archers) - however, we should scout a couple of turns to find the best site to do that in.

And thought #3 coming up, after a smoke break ;)

... Raging Barbs were off and I am not used to play with them on so I don't really know when they usually appears.


in my exp they start showing after 3000bc. my concern animals show earlier, and they do not attack cities, but they do attack units. let's not get the settler to far from the warroir while exploring. just be careful. seems game could be loaded for this...

3. Now, finally to respond to some of the starting discussion! First off, 'henge. I don't know about this. There's not really much else to build in Kyoto other than workboats, so it seems like a decent idea. However, I think it will be okay to build a couple of workboats first... back to my previous tech path, Pottery -> Mining -> Hunting -> Archery could then follow up with Mysticism, then BW. As long as we can get a strong size 3-4 city in the thin cross, I don't see border expansions as being that big of a deal.

Btw, I'll try to use Epic speed numbers - but I tend to forget.

As Krockel noted, the Oracle isn't much more expensive than the 'henge. I figure most folks here aren't familiar with using whips to spillover onto other production (I know I'm not), but, if we stacked whips, could we get the Oracle instead of 'henge? The Oracle costs 225 hammers. We can whip a warrior for 44 hammers (of which 11 go to the warrior) for 33 hammers spillover on to a wonder. We can do that every 10 turns without incurring a happiness penalty (and disband the warrior immediately so no upkeep), or bum rush it with 4 whips in 8 turns for 132 hammers (crippling Kyoto for the next 30 turns or so.) Hmm. Such a complicated start! Props to SGOTM team :) We could also do this on the 'henge, too... Clamhenge. :lol:

Wow, I'm think I'm more confused than ever about this start... it should be fun :)

in my exp they start showing after 3000bc. my concern animals show earlier, and they do not attack cities, but they do attack units. let's not get the settler to far from the warroir while exploring. just be careful. seems game could be loaded for this...

Absolutely. We shouldn't keep our settler away from the warrior for more than 3-4 turns. But, I'll argue we should settle the city by that point anyway so we can get a start on the new Palace. :)

Also, even the barb warrior & archers won't enter cultural boundaries for a while. The date is pretty late - 1600 BC or so, I think - so they're a threat out in the wild, but won't pillage/attack for a good amount of time. I don't think we'll have too much problems with them if we go for the "palace first" strategy, as we won't need to protect a settler outside of our borders (though maybe a worker chopping forests?)

Nice ideas armstrong! Its good to have you back to give us totally different perspective, and one so senstive to details. That is, apart from the "palace" thing which I am going to :gripe: all over you ... :lol:

2a. However, we absolutely MUST move the Palace asap! We can not afford an second -7 distance hit. We need that Palace moved before we build our second settler. Because of this, I think getting early production in our first city is critical - and - given the lack of border expansions, that means we need hills within our "thin cross." We can also chop forests to speed it along. Once our palace is moved, we basically have a single liability - Kyoto - which can pay for itself. I think spending a couple of turns to speed up the Palace move is critical.

You are contradicting yourself ... if we must move the palace ASAP yet cannot afford a 2nd -7gpt hit ... how can we move the palace? AFAIK, you need 4~5 cities to move palace.


2d. Because of the palace move, I don't think delaying settling our settler that much is a wise idea. We want to drop it early and start building Palace (and some archers) - however, we should scout a couple of turns to find the best site to do that in.

See above.


And thought #3 coming up, after a smoke break ;)
Hopefully that will cause you to :smoke: less here .... :lol:

Also, even the barb warrior & archers won't enter cultural boundaries for a while. The date is pretty late - 1600 BC or so, I think - so they're a threat out in the wild, but won't pillage/attack for a good amount of time. I don't think we'll have too much problems with them if we go for the "palace first" strategy, as we won't need to protect a settler outside of our borders (though maybe a worker chopping forests?)

Er ... this "palace" mistake is going to cost you dearly, armstrong, I 'll haunt u on it for quite some time :lol:

But, i am not going to talk abt palace. I am going to talk abt barbs. didn't you play in VQ08 as well?

Look at this post in VQ08 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4281812&postcount=24): Barbs will appear exactly at 2800BC (that is the 40th turn in Epic), and they don't care about culture borders. However, since they only spawn in fog, so it takes them some turns to travel into a culture border.

--

You are contradicting yourself ... if we must move the palace ASAP yet cannot afford a 2nd -7gpt hit ... how can we move the palace? AFAIK, you need 4~5 cities to move palace

If that's true about needing more cities (and it sounds right) we're screwed. We'll have to absorb -28 gold just to move the damn thing... we'll need 3 river cottages in every city just to keep research at 10%... :eek: Everyone has to deal with this, though... how will we? An army of axes + workers to chop a palace and take the cities, and let our army disband?

I just checked the Civ-O-Pedia. You're right. You need 4 cities to move the palace. If we settle 3 on the mainland, that's -21 gold. I don't know how we can handle that... even if Kyoto worked 5 fish tiles, and 4C from city centers, we'd go broke without a massive cottage spam... any ideas? I can't think of how to pull out of this mess (and I'm worried the SGOTM folks might have gotten too clever...)

As for the barbs, remember that I killed 20 barbs in as many turns in VQ08. ;) But, that was on Emperor, not Monarch. I think there's a significant difference - just like between Prince & Monarch - especially with raging barbs in place. I just played a non-raging Monarch game, there were plenty of barb archers stalking the boundaries (and killing my scouts :mad:) but none crossed to pillage until after I had hooked up my bronze in my second city.

ps. Made of plastic? It's fantastic...

pps. The More You Know. Did you know the Great Lighthouse doesn't just give trade routes to coastal cities, but also cities on lakes? :smoke:

Based on the palace requirements, I think our best option is still to move westwards to reduce the maintenance cost as much as possible. I don't think we can move 30 tiles west though, so we got to make do with something like 4 ~5 gpt maintenance. Does anyone recall the mapping from distance to maintenance cost? I was hopping we can move 10 tiles west. Fortunately, based on the screenshot, both in Kyoto and in the settler, the resources are pointing up, suggesting both are south of the equator. So, that means its unlikely for the land to curve southwards even more towards the West such that we are equidistance from Kyoto no matter how much west we move. (THAT will be REALLY evil).

You lost me on the "Made of Plastic" postscript :crazyeye:

Regarding Krockel's Stonehenge gambit, 1210BC may not be good enough - depending on who our opponents are. I ran a test game and the Henge was built in 1510BC by Qin.

I then replayed the same game, but using different tactics, and it is possible to build Stonehenge in Kyoto by 1690BC without needing whipping.


(Don't worry about the nearby continent: the map was set up to replicate the most important elements of the actual SG, and for these purposes it is accurate. Kyoto is approx. 30 tiles from Osaka)

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/301/civilization42006080810305573rz0.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/3997/civilization42006080810310632ll3.jpg

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/3117/civilization42006080810314076wh2.jpg


I don't think it is possible to do it any quicker than this because two workboats need to be built first (please feel free to prove me wrong!).

Research path was Hunting -> Mysticism -> Archery [-> Pottery -> AH -> Mining....] *I agree with armstrong about the importance of Pottery.

NB: I did not found Osaka (2nd city) until 3490BC - the turn after Mysticism was completed. I actually located the settling spot within 8 turns (and I didn't look very hard as the main purpose of this test was to build Stonehenge), but decided to wait to keep research at max. The warrior was positioned to give advance warning of animals: if any had threatened the settler I would have founded immediately.

[I would also like to reiterate: huts are probably too risky to pop at first - in my opinion, it is better to simply locate them and pop them later when defenses are in place. As an example of why, in one of my test games using this map - which uses the same settings listed for the SG - my warrior popped five barb warriors. This may be very unlucky and unlikely, but a result like this could easily ruin our day...]

In my opinion, getting the free obelisk more than made up for the turns in which the city remained unfounded, producing nothing. Similarly, the lack of maintenence made up for commerce; Osaka had a -6 penalty on founding, rising to -8 when reaching size 2.

By this stage, the barbs were in full flow, but Osaka was defended by 2 warriors and 2 archers (one defending a cow waiting to be pasturized).

* Waits impatiently for dot's plan to be revealed *

Ok, I played the first few turns, up to 3610.

We can't go very far to the west... (I assume the admins did this on purpose)

However, there is a city spot that is loaded...

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/2567/cityej0.jpg

Two gems and gold, as well as a few flood plains to cottage. We can settle on the spot, which is a plains hill... extra hammer, and extra defense. (and yes, that is Isabella's scout just to the south)

Here's the map of everything to the west:

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/784/mapkt5.jpg

I'll give a couple hours for discussion, but I think that we should settle here. The commerce from this city can support another city or two...

Bloody hell! That's just sick! And look what else we pick up once the borders expand! I wonder what the catch is...

EDIT: Hmm... the catch is that while they can be worked as tiles, none of those resources will be connected to the capital.

none of those resources will be connected to the capital.

Nope, not unless we move the palace... (or Astronomy)

But that does bring up a good question... do resources have to be connected to the Capital in order for the cities to share the resources? Or is it enough for the cities be connected to each other?

Why is it so difficult to find stuff in the manual? - and as for the strategy guide... But it may well need to be linked to the capital, which would effectively screw us militarily unless we shift the palace.

Answer: No, I'm wrong, it doesn't need to be linked to the capital (whew!).

That's what I call science boost location. :)
To farm FP and work as many mines as possible as fast as possible is my suggestion. 3 gem/gold mine = 3*8 = 24 gold per turn! Screw maintenance, I think we should settle as fast as possible and get out a worker to improve and then build archers for defense, we will need a lot of archers to defend so many resource tiles.

Another good thing is that we're not so defendent of research from Kyoto. So we can build Stonehenge there a´la Scowler there! If we shouldn't have had a so good research boosting location I believe that getting Stonehenge while only working 2 sea tiles wouldn't be worth it.

i agree, very nice indeed. i think everyone votes settle.

questions/thoughts later.

Wow. Two (non jungle!) gems. Gold on a grass hill. River Sheep. Two Oases. Two flood plains. And it's on a plains hill. And gets fresh water from the oasis. Settle it!

Note that since the gems are non jungle, and the grassland gold, this is a huge gift from the designer... a city like this doesn't occur naturally. :)

We have room to build (at least) two more good cities at the western edge of the continent - I see clam-wheat and fish-sheep. This would let us move the palace and stop the barb flow from the west. Our capital will have pretty good production to build the palace. With 3 metals and three 2C food tiles, we're going to be fine on commerce.

It looks like Clam-Wheat could get some decent production. How about a beeline to the Great Lighthouse in that city, while town #1 builds palace & #2 builds military? If we're aiming to win this thing, it will never go obsolete, as our goal is fast conquest.

As for the capital connection, I don't know. I know that if a city has access to a resource, it can use it itself - I just don't know if you can connect the routes without the capital being a part. However, I think we should just move the Palace asap anyway. I'll give it a test right now. :)

Pretty good, we have no choice but to settle, can't wonder any further as barbs are going to appear soon, and we need defenders real fast. But be careful, the AI are agressive in nature, so don't settle befor eyou can move the warrior back to guard the city. We don't want this game to be reduced to a OCC until Astronomy :lol:

Anyone has any thoughts on where to settle? Settling on where the settler is in the screenshot seems to be good. We need te culture expansion fast if we are going to reap the advantage of the site. We need food to grow, and the flood plains provides it. Initial build should be a worker, then scout, then archer.

If we go for stonehedge, then obelisk is not needed. Else, we need an obelisk too.

--

Anyone has any thoughts on where to settle? Settling on where the settler is in the screenshot seems to be good. We need te culture expansion fast if we are going to reap the advantage of the site. We need food to grow, and the flood plains provides it. Initial build should be a worker, then scout, then archer.

If we go for stonehedge, then obelisk is not needed. Else, we need an obelisk too.
--

I think we should settle in place concerning both short- and longterm.

Even if we build Stonehenge in Kyoto it's not out of the question to build an obelisk in Osaka before that.

It is worth it to build scouts on Monarch raging barbs? I think warrior, obelisk or barrack is a better choice for first build.

Ah ... yeah, right. No scouts. Me :smoked: Obelisk might be better, and once we hit size 2, switch to worker, we need the commerce form gold and gems fast to counter the maintenance.

--

So it sounds like everyone's in agreement, settle in place. The only question I still have is, how soon? There are 7 turns left on Archery; as soon as we settle, that number will obviously go up. Do we want to get Archery done first (for an Archer defense) or should we settle now, build Oblesk and delay the archer? With the Warrior, and hill defense, we should be able to fend off barb warriors and archers...

Before we get a worker going, I would also like to have an archer for field defense. We can't afford the gold (or gem) mine to be pillaged...

"It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses. Hit it!"

:salute: The official lurker reporting for duty ...


On moving the palace:
Yes, you'll need three cities. And this will most probably bring up some -21gpt. But moving it seems to be important. Since it'll be of hardly any use in Kyoto ("no use" does sound so harsh). But I will take care of this in my announced idea. This is not my idea.
.
On where to settle:
Maquis, could you post the interim-save to allow us a look at the save and the map?
.
On connection of ressources:
Answer: No, I'm wrong, it doesn't need to be linked to the capital (whew!).
I've never met anything that would contradict that. AFAIK the capital has not to be included in the trade network.
If we have the 100% bonus material for the wonder, we get 69 hammers every two turns.
Yes Sir. After having researched astronomy. :crazyeye:
.
On the henge:
In my opinion, getting the free obelisk more than made up for the turns in which the city remained unfounded, producing nothing. If I got you right here, Scowler, I'd definitely vote for getting the henge in Kyoto.
If we'd go for the oracle to maybe get us some religion we'd be absolutely screwed if Kyoto would be the Holy City. Don't get me wrong here - I absolutely dig having the oracle. But what I found even more helpful is having expanding cultural borders - simply because any enemy would have to slow down as soon as he enters them. They're some strong defence! And with agressive AI and raging barbs on monarch we might need it! --- BTW I did also check whether the henge is applying obelisks to cities that are founded after the wonder has been build. And it does. :D
.
On my announced idea:
So we do have raging barbs. I know that some of the players on this team have encountered them. And as the old Fox has pointed out they only spawn in the fog. In the fog is also exactly where they ... settle. And this might save us some turns for building settlers.

Do settle and build up city #2 (Osaka) for receiving the palace. After building some defence go for a settler! The city site as discussed above will most probably be able to maintain another city without too much maintenance punishment.
I'd say try to settle city #3 (Tokyo) asap. Use Tokyo as the military production site. From Maquis map I could only guess - but the wheat/sheep site might make up for a proper production city. (The question is where Isabella lives/came from, cause we would want to allow the barbs to grow some cities. Therefore we'd have to cut her off!)
Get some military up for defence of our workers and improvements. Thereby they should be able to gather some XP. So we should be able to raise an army that is experienced.
When we have grown enough and do have enough military >> Conquer one barb city. Might be AI, too. It doesn't really matter.
Immediately go for the palace in Osaka while transforming the captured city into another military production site!


Welcome to - what might be - the start of a huge conquest! :D

Please criticise all that there is to receive and deserve your critics! Positive and negative!

Regards, .

------- What I considered rather funny ... ------- :dubious: -------
Our capital will have pretty good production to build the palace.

i think we should hold off on settling until archery is done. a weak military could kill us, and i seem to be missing the benefits of going ahead and settling. we lose research, money, and forced to build warriors when we know in a few turns they will be almost useless.

(The question is where Isabella lives/came from, cause we would want to allow the barbs to grow some cities. Therefore we'd have to cut her off!)

*Get some military up for defence of our workers and improvements. Thereby they should be able to gather some XP. So we should be able to raise an army that is experienced.

*When we have grown enough and do have enough military >> Conquer one barb city. Might be AI, too. It doesn't really matter.


i've done this a little in my games (let the barbs build a city, then take it for my own). what i've found is the AI rushes for the city as soon as it appears. if i take the city before it grows to size 2 it is destroyed. so i have had to have troops ready just for this purpose, some cont scouting to locate the city when it pops up, then park troops outside it so i can take it before AI and/or as soon as it grows to size 2.

just my exp with barb cities.

Heh, as some of you noticed I keep talking about the "capital" while referring to both Kyoto and the "new" one :blush:

Well, there are several reasons to settle immediately:

1. We can start building military units faster.
2. We can work the gem mine faster.

Maquis mentioned getting an archer before a worker. I think it's better to switch research immediately to Mining and build a worker first thing in the New Capital (NC.) We have enough time to get a mine built before they come pillaging us... let's look at a time table. I'll use normal time scale, though everything should scale about the same:

Since NC is on a plains hill, it will take 12 turns to build a worker. We can work the oasis for 5 turns while the mine is built (10 hammers on archer) then the gem mine for 5 turns (15 hammers on archer.) So, we get our first archer 22 turns after we found NC. On normal speed, that's 880 years - so as long as we settle NC by 3680, we'll have our archer by 2800 ready to fight barbs.

Edit: I was assuming (possibly wrongly) that we'd have both Mining & Archery done when the worker finishes. If that's not the case (i.e., we still have a couple of turns left on Archery) we can always build a warrior to help protect the city/mine. Militarily, I think this is stronger since it will get us BW and IW earlier to reveal the resources and get slavery.

If we build an archer first, we end up in nearly the identical situation, except we lose out on at least 70 commerce.

Border expansion in the NC would be nice, but it's not completely critical. Even without a border pop, we can work the oasis, gems, gold hill, and grass hill at size 4 for the neighborhood of 16 commerce and 8 hammers. While it would be nice to help shoo away the barbs, hopefully we can get some fogburners to the E and SE relatively early on.

As for dot's "announced idea" - I think it sounds sound. Except I'd argue we shouldn't wait too long for a barb city to build/grow. If we're ready to expand, we should go for it and not wait for a good target to come into view. But with the barbs out in force, we probably won't need to worry about it :)

@Codeman:
:yup: I've found that the AI will rush towards any barb city with size two, too. What I've been thinking of, is to grow some barb cities in our backyard, kind of. Like to the west - given that Isa has come from the east.

@armstrong:
I absolutely concur. Don't wait too long to expand. :yup:

Regards, .

Ok, I finished my turnset. I think I played 20... I guess I kind of lost count. I ended just as the workboat finished.

I founded Osaka in place. Started on the worker first. We added 2 turns onto Archery, not too bad. Next up is Mining, and it will finish one turn before the worker. Get the worker out, and start growing and working the gold/gems.

Ok, one other thing, the admins are really teasing us... just to the north of Kyoto:

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/5821/kyoto1sa7.jpg

A workboat can get there, but I don't think a galley can? There is ocean in between, although it is in our cultural border... Anyone want to build another test? :)

One thing I also thought of, to boost Kyoto's produciton early on, hire CITIZENS for one hammer/turn. This will be helpful until we get slavery. (We'll have plenty of food with the fishes...)

Here's the save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/VQ_Red_SG002_BC3310_01.Civ4SavedGame

I believe I'm up. I'll look at the save a bit and maybe post some plans.

No need to build a test game, I am 100% sure galleys can reach the two islands. But for what purpose? Are we going to settle there? Damned, its the same situation the other way round. If we settle there, and move our palace to Osaka, the maintenance cost is going to cripple us!

--

Looks like a good start! :goodjob: About the land to the north - I guess you could tell there was land there from the starting screen shot because the ocean is more lightly colored (reminds me of the Gulf of Mexico.) :) I didn't notice until now, though... maybe that's why some threads have 5 pages and we only have 4! The question is - is anyone on that land? Does it connect to the mainland in any way (if it's navigable via work boat, we can establish traderoutes with the mainland with only Sailing.) It's absolutely reachable via galley via cultural borders.

It's great that Mining finishes 1 turn before the worker, that should be perfect. I don't think we'll have too much trouble with barbs. Lots of carnage, but it should be mostly on their side. :) Who knows, though, I've won 2 <1% fights today... :crazyeye: I should have bought a lottery ticket instead!

Even if our distance maintence is -7 gpt, as long as we work a gem or gold for each city we found, our research won't tank, so we should be fine while we wait to build the new Palace. And when the palace does move, that extra 14 gpt will sure be nice :) Btw, did you notice the distance cost is 8gpt at our current city? We must have moved farther from the capital - someone screwed up their tile counts! I think Kyoto is closer to the east than the west. But going further west might wrap around and reduce the cost... :lol:

If any of the other SGOTM folks didn't scout around a bit with their first settler (I imagine most did, though) they'd be in serious trouble. I can't imagine pulling this off without the three gold/gem mines.

En lieu of hiring citizens, how about we just head for BW early, maybe right after Mining or Mysticism to top off the wb? We're going to need metal sooner than later if we want to conquest. I'd rather have the 2C towards learning how to whip & cultivate copper... but if we're working on the 'henge, every bit does help. :) Whipping 1 pop every 10 turns for a warrior (and then disbanding it) will give us 15 hammers every 10 turns, a better use of the people than a single citizen.

Isabella founded Buddhism - that will be nice, a free shrine. Do we have any idea how close she is to us yet? (how many turns did you explore before the scout hit?) It'd be nice to know if she's in axer range or not.

Finally, after we build some archers to protect Osaka & her mines, where should we settle? Clam-Wheat?

ps. Could any SGOTM1 vet give me a link or instructions on how to upload the saves/what not to do? When my turn comes, I don't want to do something stupid and spoil the game.

pps. on the barb cities, I was just playing a Monarch game where the barbs had a city on my continent (that I shared with 4 other civs) that wasn't conquered until after I got Liberalism. Sometimes they go for them, sometimes they don't... what really irks me is when the other civs raze a size 1 city that I want to capture.

Actually, for a second city spot, how about 1s of the wheat? It's not coastal, but it snares river wheat, river sheep, 6 other river tiles, and 3 hills. It's also a perfect "snake" (see VQ07) and gives us plenty of room to build a clam-fish-floodplain city & a sheep-fish city, too. At size 4, it can work wheat, grass hill and two plains hills for 12 hammers a turn, pretty good for an early military city. And it can use the sheep to grow/work the forested plains. :)

If you look at the save and turn on yields you will find that there is costal tiles towards the SE of Kyoto. (which is why I always play with yeilds, grid and resource indicator turned on), suggesting there is island there.

The reason why we are at 8gpt is because, I believe, we actually settled further away both south and east from the original starting position ... definitely not because we are closer the other way round.

Also, if you looked at Osaka, you will find that towards the northeast, the coastline seems to curve westward into the fog ... heh ... perhaps if we moved northeast initially, we will find that the landmass actually is alot closer to Kyoto there :crazyeye:

Ok ... less conjecture.

I agree with not having citizen. The good thing abt citizen is it gives you a hammer, but the bad thing is it reduces your commerce, consdiering otherwise you would be working on a coastal tile. The lost of 2 commerce is not justified for the extra hammer, me think.

Any last words before I play the game?

(I will show you how to load the save later).

Loading the Game

Go to the Results and Progress (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) page, there is a link to the submission page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm.php) there. There, just read the instructions, and you should have it uploaded. After uploading, the page will give you a link to the saved file which you can copy and paste here, and also it will give an extracted log (which is uber-detailed esp. for combats), which you can use as replacement for autolog if you so desire.

--

The best use we can have from Kyoto is commerce; so working the sea owns hiring citizens for one hammer.
Regarding :whipped: at epic game we can do it every 15 turns without getting more then one :mad:.

Aiming for bronze working after our most essential techs make sense. After mining I think we should go for mysticism-wheel-BW.

Accords from the Lone Warrior

The land is vast. But I am alone. I am the only Warrior Japan has to protect itself. I must thread carefully.

However, I think there is still some time before barbarians will attack. I will use this time to observe the surrounding more carefully. I decided to move northeastwards.

Sure enough, lions were there. Come on, you beast! Show me what you've got!

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vqred-BC3220-lion.jpg

Ha, is that all? I am victorious, but hey, look, that spanish scout may be able to take Kyoto. I better moved back to intercept him should he had any funny idea.

Ah... nah, he moved away. Agressive AI? :dubious: PPbbbftt!

Time is running short, let me go onward a bit and see what the land reveal.

Hmm ... nothing interesting. Its abt time I head back to kyoto, heal myself, and prepare for the onslaught of the barbs. Hmm... what's that? Ah, kyoto told me that mining is learnt. They are starting to unveil the mystery of mysticism. That will be done in 10 turns, good! Kyoto need an obelisk for its people to feel reassured enough to work further away from the city center.

Then, kyoto produced a worker. Ha, lets get those gems digged up. They shall support our researchers.

Wait, did I hear a lion roar again?

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vqred-BC2950-lion.jpg

Hmm, let me go to the forest to the east, and see what's going on out there. AH-ha, yet another lion across the river!! Come on, you beast. Attack if you dare ... holy mother sh!t!!! It really dares!!!


But of-course I am victorious. Ah, and I feel something different. There is a blue aura flowing all around me! I am becoming a god! I am the God of Battle!!!!

Muwahhahahaa!

---

Some Notes

Kyoto hit size 4 and is unhealthy already :eek:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vqred-BC2920-kyoto.jpg

Not only that, it is also at happiness limit. Suggest next player to turn on avoid growth just before it grows. Build/whip a warrior next to resolve the happiness issue.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vqred-BC2800-kyoto.jpg

It makes no difference whether the next workboat is sent to the fish or crabs. Fish gives one more food than crabs, but crabs give one health, thereby cancelling the unhealthy food consumption.

Mysticism is in at my last turn, archer is due to come out in 6 turns, and the warrior remains unpromoted and unmoved. Brace yourself for barbs.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/sgotm02/vqred-BC2800-osaka.jpg

>>> The Save (2800BC) (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/VQ_Red_SG002_BC2800_01.Civ4SavedGame) <<<


3310BC (#23):
Looks okay, but we should scout a bit more.
There is still some time before barb start to appear.
SO I move the warrior NE.

3280BC (#24):

3250BC (#25):

3220BC (#26):
Lion appears, I move to a forest next to it, hopefully it attacks and we gain free exp.

3190BC (#27):
We won, at 1.42. Isabella's scout appeared, I don't want to lose Oskaa for nothing, so moved warrior back so that if Isabella declared, I will take his scout out.

3160BC (#28):
Isabella's scout moves away. Phew. Not that agressive.

3130BC (#29):
I moved one more tile northwards. That's the maximum I should go. Need to head back, heal and prepare for the onslaught of raging barbs.

3100BC (#30):
Start moving back ... 10 more turns til Barbs, 1 more for mining, 2 more for worker, 15 more for workboat

3070BC (#31):
Mining in. I agree on Mysticism (10) next so that we can build the obelisk or stonehedge. Its also much faster than BW.

3040BC (#32):
Worker done, starts mining gems. Start archer (19) in Osaka. Hopefully after the gems, we could speed it up a little, else barbs will give problems!!!!

3010BC (#33):

2980BC (#34):
Lions is looking longingly at our worker.

2950BC (#35):
Comeon, lions, attack me! I need one exp to level up!

2920BC (#36):
We won, gaining 1 more exp. I leave him unpromoted.
Kyoto hit size 4 and is unhealthy already! Geez. But we are starting to earn 1 gpt.

2890BC (#37):

2860BC (#38):
Gems is mined, reducing archer to 9 turns.

2830BC (#39):
Start mining gold (6), warrior healed, remain guarding the gems. Archer in 8.

2800BC (#40):
Mysticism in, start BW (14 @ 70%).
Warrior remains unmoved and unpromoted.
Brace yourself for the onslaught of barbs!
Kyoto is at happy limit, so suggest next player to turn on avoid growth just before it grow (6).
Work boat in 5, archer in (7), osaka grow in 6.



Here is your Session Turn Log from 3310 BC to 2800 BC:


Turn 26, 3220 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs VQ Red's Warrior (3.60)
Turn 26, 3220 BC: Combat Odds: 2.9%
Turn 26, 3220 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 26, 3220 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 26, 3220 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 26, 3220 BC: VQ Red's Warrior is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 26, 3220 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 26, 3220 BC: VQ Red's Warrior is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 26, 3220 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 26, 3220 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 26, 3220 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 26, 3220 BC: VQ Red's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

Turn 30, 3100 BC: You have discovered Mining!

Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs VQ Red's Warrior (4.10)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Combat Odds: 0.8%
Turn 35, 2950 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: VQ Red's Warrior is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: VQ Red's Warrior is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: VQ Red's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

Turn 39, 2830 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!

For what its worth, we are currently the top-scorer, and one of the fastest team, lagging behind VQ-Black only by 1 turn!

:woohoo::dance:

--

Roster

Maquis (Leader) -- North America == settled us a very nice spot!
GreyFox -- Asia == just played, Lion Slayer
Codeman -- North America == UP
Scowler (Scribe) -- Europe == On Deck
armstrong -- North America
Krockel -- Europe

Dot (Official Lurker) == Always Up :)

--

For the seond workboat, maybe we should try to explore with it a little. We don't *need* to hook up the crabs yet, as the unhealthyness is not hurting, since we are at the happy limit anyways. The boat should be able to reach the islands to the north, and see if there is an island chain where we could reach someone else...

Good to see we are positive cash flow with 70% research. Hopefully we will continue to improve that as we can work the gems and gold mines.

I want to stress that several Archers need to be built in Osaka. We need to be sure we secure the gems and gold mines. We can't afford to have our economy devistated by pillagers, as we are just starting to get it rolling...

Also, after a warrior in Kyoto, is it time to start on stonehedge?

At current research, BW is due in 14 turns, but that will go down when Osaka grows. After growth, we can work another commerce tile (unfortunatly not both gold & gems yet)

Hopefully slavery will be available in 12 turns or less. I say let Kyoto grow into unhappness, as it is just more population for the :whipped: Kyoto still will not starve with an angry citizen. It will be fine @ size 5, or size 6 when we get a warrior produced.

I'm trying to come up with a strategy for whipping Stonehedge ASAP.

Here's a couple thoughts... we build a warrior, and whip with one turn to go, for max overflow (should be around 42 hammers?). Pour the overflow into the hedge. As mentioned, the warrior produced will eliminate the unhappy for military protection. We will then only have the 15 turns for whipping penalty (epic speed again) At the end of this we have 42 (whip overflow) + 30 (2/turn) hammers in the wonder. (72 total)

Stonehedge costs 180 hammers on epic, and we get 45 hammers/pop for whipping? So with 3 population available, (assuming we can get to size 6) we can whip the hedge... 72 prior + 135 for 3 pop.

We may even be able to do this sooner. The key is getting Kyoto to grow to size 6, so we can whip 3 population.

will look at save after work. probably 3 hours or so.

You don't want Kyoto to grow into unhappiness ... yes , we can support him. But AFAIK, maintenance goes up with pop size. So, not only does angry citizen eat food, it steals money as well. I might be wrong here though.

Why can't we work on both gems and gold? The gold mine will be done by the time Osaka grow to size 2. The only thing with working on both the gems and gold is it will cause Osaka to stop growing, which I think is a small cost. We need the hammer from gold mine (not to say the commerce as well). That is the reason I mined the gems first, because the gems is on a plains with 2F, it allows Osaka to grow while working on it.

I think we need to work on both gold and gems, at least initially until we get 2 archers, then switch the gold to oasis for growth. By then, hopefully the hedge is in effect, so that once osaka grows, its culture will pop as well, giving us access to the rice and sheep for further growth.

Good idea on exploring a bit with the workboat!!! Silly of me never to think of it. But careful there, barb do spawn galleys.

--

ok. home now. got it. will begin play.

1.have healed warrior go back to Osaka to prepare for barbs.

2.fortify warrior in Osaka.

3.:coffee:

4.:sleep:

5.Kyoto work boat> warrior
one turn til growth>turn on avoid growth
work boat>move to NW corner of culture border for exploring reasons
worker finish mine>have worker move to gem mine and build road. This way if a barb is on it we can kill and retreat in same move before mine is pillaged

6.work boat begins exploring counter clock wise the islands. First the one to the west.

7.Osaka archer>archer
a bear has shown up across the river to the E of Osaka. Send archer to gem mine
work boat has shown the island to the W has 2 clams and 1 cow/grassland
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j142/codeman_01/Civ4ScreenShot0080.jpg

8.in an effort to increase production and continue growth in Osaka, change citizens to gold mine and oasis
worker to gold mine for road building
archer to forest on river banks. The bear disappeared.
work baot cont counter clock wise exploration

9.worker begins building the mine
see our first barb, a warrior WNW of Osaka
archer return to gem mine, headed to protect Osaka
work boat has revealed all of islands. Found whale N of island with stones and 1 E as well

10.moving work boat back to Kyoto
archer to gold mine
barb is due W of Osaka in forest. Barb warrior has a 50% defense bonus where he is. I let him either attack fortified warrior in city or archer on gold mine

11.gibbon claims we are 8th and Isabella is first in regards to most advanced
Kyoto finished warrior>stonehenge(warrior will take 5 turns and BW will finish in 4. next turn I will switch to warrior, then after BW will whip to get overflow in to Stonehenge)
fortify warrior in Kyoto
work boat to crabs NW of Kyoto
archer from gold mine back to Osaka and fortify
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j142/codeman_01/Civ4ScreenShot0081.jpg

12.worker finished road>return to Osaka for safety
barb warrior to the NE and another to the SW
have archer attack warrior to the NE (using road can attack outside border)92% odds, we win. Still have barb warrior SW just outside border
work boat to crabs>work ‘em(unhealthy gone from kyoto)

13.archer back to gem mine
switch Kyoto to warrior to get more over flow in henge

14.barb warrior wastes his time attacking Osaka
archer, along with some blue sparklies, returns to Osaka to heal

15.BW>pottery
adopt slavery
oaska archer>archer
archer moves SW to forest to stop barb warrior from entering border
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j142/codeman_01/Civ4ScreenShot0083.jpg

16.barb warrior approaching from S
let archer heal in forest
also have barb archer coming from W
move archer from osaka to protect gem mine and fortify

17.barb attacks and kills archer fortified on gem mine :eek:
move archer from forest to Osaka to aid warrior in defending the city

18.lost gem mine
now have one archer and one warrior defending, working is cowering in a closet
whip 1 citizen to finish archer in Osaka

19.lost gold mine
barb archer attacks Osaka and archer kills him
Osaka archer>archer
1 turn left on warrior in Kyoto so I whip it to get overflow on Stonehenge
our archer killed barb warrior on gold
fortify one archer on gold
wake worker and have him rebuild gold mine

20.fortify warrior in Kyoto

let next player decide if they want to retreat to Osaka (archer and worker) or cont building gold mine. Also archer in Osaka has promotion avail. After BW i checked for copper, none. i'll bet there's iron but we won't find it until IW. Before we lost the archer and mines we had 124 points.

and our final military status in osaka...
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j142/codeman_01/Civ4ScreenShot0084.jpg

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/VQ_Red_SG002_BC2200_01.Civ4SavedGame

Argh! Terrible news about losing both mines, but a very good & detailed report :)

This is why I hate raging barbs. I don't mind dealing with them, but the randomness is too much. We probably had 70%+ odds to save the gem mine, but we lost. Somewhere, in the other teams games, the majority of folks won that battle and didn't lose 7C/turn, completely changing the game.

In retrospect, it might have been smarter to mine gold first - an archer can protect that much better than the flatland gems. The problem is that it kills city growth, and you need to protect a farm/sheepses instead. Hmm.

It looks like you used some savvy whipping there in Kyoto... I see 22 hammers of overflow! :goodjob:

A two clam+cow island? That's interesting. I took a look, we could theoretically settle both the clam-cow island and the double whale+stone island (What did they :smoke: when that made this map?) They'll be drags on the economy once we move the palace, but - we could theoretically research Sailing and whip out a galley & 2 settlers and settle those as our first two cities instead of the mainland. If the cities can grow to size 4 in the meantime they can each provide 9C. If we did this, Colossus would be the #1 priority - we could sustain our mainland force with a triad of fishing villages working 3C tiles... :crazyeye: We'd need to sacrifice the Henge (not terrible, as we just traded 1 pop for 22 gold ;)) This would let Osaka focus on building defense, the palace, and then an offense to capture cities. Even pre-Colossus, at size 4 they could generate 9 commerce/turn.

I don't know, how crazy does that sound? Pretty crazy to me, but it would let us have a decent economy until the Palace is moved, giving us time to get fog busters out in Osaka instead of worrying about two settlers.

Stonehedge costs 180 hammers on epic, and we get 45 hammers/pop for whipping? So with 3 population available, (assuming we can get to size 6) we can whip the hedge... 72 prior + 135 for 3 pop.

Wonders get a -100% penalty when being whipped, though, unfortunately (and National Wonders -50%?) If we grew to size 6, we could finish off the 'henge when it has 66 hammers left on it. Our best bet is to whip another warrior (when he's almost finished) then disband him... do that once or twice more every 15 turns and then grow and whip the 'henge fully.

fyi for next player.

i think i forgot to turn off avoid growth after whipping in kyoto.

I hope you remmeber to turn off "avoid growth" 1 turn before the warrior pops.

EDIT: ha, just saw your post. Hmm ... you mean it has been on avoid growth all this while? :eek: nevermind, no big deal, 2 turns of growth wasted only ...

Tough luck losing archer to warrior. But IMHO its better to remine the gems rather than the gold first ... the gems allow growth.

Good thinking abt getting cows and clams ... I don't know how it will impact our economy, but sounds like a good plan. One thing abt the cows island is damned!, we need a worker to reap the production benefits of cows, but he is totally useless after that until Astronomy! :eek:

Nah, don't worry abt the score, just have fun. Of-course mention we are first in score for morale boost, but when we drop in score, just ignore it :cooool: :lol:

--

Roster

Maquis (Leader) -- North America == settled us a very nice spot!
GreyFox -- Asia == Lion Slayer
Codeman -- North America == just played ... some rough luck with barbies
Scowler (Scribe) -- Europe == UP
armstrong -- North America == On Deck
Krockel -- Europe

Dot (Official Lurker) == Always Up ... but is currently OoP ... come back quick, need shome cheerleading :lol:

--

Off to play now.

:D What do these buildings have in common, folks?


Angkor Wat
Chichen Itza
Notre Dame
Stonehenge
The Great Lighthouse
The Hanging Gardens
The Kremlin
The Pyramids
The Spiral Minaret
Ironworks
Mt. Rushmore
Oxford University
West Point

-------- While you are pondering this let me obey the Fox and cheer! --------


:band: :woohoo: :dance: :bounce: :dance: :bounce: :dance: :woohoo: :thumbsup:

Good turns there Codeman. Playing when the barbs shows up is IMHO the hardest thing in this game we call Civ. To bad we lost that archer though, but we'll survive.

Regarding settle those two northern island; I think it's a better option to settle two cities west or southwest of Osaka. To bust fog, grab metal/horses and support Osaka regarding troops.

For research I believe we need IW after pottery. Get iron is essential for our offensive purposes.

Regarding settle those two northern island; I think it's a better option to settle two cities west or southwest of Osaka. To bust fog, grab metal/horses and support Osaka regarding troops.

For research I believe we need IW after pottery. Get iron is essential for our offensive purposes.

Sorry Krockel. If I'd read your post earlier I would have taken it into account. As it was, I considered IW to be too far away at present. This may be :smoke: ; I'm not sure.

Yes, it may become imperitive that we get IW soon. If I unerstand it, barb axes will show up very soon (once all civs have BW?) So our archer defenses are going to become that much weaker at defending our mines...

(0) 2200BC
- Kyoto: Avoid Growth is turned off and citizens returned to work - Pottery drops to 10 turns.
- Osaka: The worker on the gold has no movement points so he can't flee into the city. This means that a defender myst remain behind to guard him. Barb is on Hills/Forest; we are on Hills. The archer in the city currently has 0.4 health, so I promote the warrior to Cover and send him as backup for the other archer to ensure we don't lose the worker in case of an upset.

(1) 2170BC
- Barb is safely despatched. Worker sent to gems to mine (to allow growth.)
- Citizen appointed at Kyoto, since it doesn't affect research times for pottery. Any extra hammers will be welcome: ETA for Stonehenge drops from 73 -> 49.

(2) 2140BC
- Archers swap places: Drill archer defends mining worker; unpromoted archer heals in city.

(3) 2110BC
- Osaka is due to grow next turn, but I set it to AVOID GROWTH to prevent a sudden jump in maintenance from impacting research times. I will allow it to grow again once the gems are ready.

(4) 2080BC
- The calm before the storm, because...

(5) 2050BC
- ... a tag-team of barb archers materialises to the south. Having them stacked like this is definitely bad news for our defenders.

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/1206/civilization42006081018065268bn1.jpg

I send both our archers onto the Hills/Forest S of the gold so that they have the best possible defense.

(6) 2020BC
- Barb I successfully vanquished. Barb II tries to sidestep our defenders. This creates a dilemma as I don't know which way he will move next.

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/1659/civilization42006081018150081vq3.jpg

I really don't want him gaining the high ground, but both defenders are now weakened. I make the fateful decision to split them up, putting one on the gold.

- The gem mine is now ready, so Osaka is taken off AVOID GROWTH.

(7) 1990BC
- The barb attacks the Hills/Forest and KILLS our archer! A replacement is quickly queued up in Osaka. The other defender retreats to the city. The barb will either throw himself at the city and die, or head for the gems, which will put him at a disadvantage in defense.
- Kyoto switches production to a warrior. The city is due to grow next turn, so is set to AVOID GROWTH.

(8) 1960BC
- Judaism has been founded.
- Archer whipped at Osaka just in case.

(9) 1930BC
- Possible :smoke: moment. Pottery completed, so I set up Sailing. My decision was governed by the thought of sending a settler to the islands N of Kyoto; also perhaps exploring to the SE with a galley. I considered IW, AH and Writing (especially the latter - maybe that would have been better, but I didn't see much chance to build a library in the immediate future). IW was over 25 turns away, and I didn't want to go for AH just to see if horses were nearby. Anyway, if this was a bad move I apologise.
- Osaka: Archer -> barracks
- Isabella adopts Organised Religion. Ergo, she founded Judaism. Great...
- Barb has now cut the road to the gold.

(10) 1900BC
- A black day in the history of our great nation. The barb moves onto the gem mine, preparatory to pillaging it. I must either act or lose the mine (again). We lost TWO archers to this demon barbie, before our final archer sends him back to hell. We just can't afford those kinds of losses, but I couldn't bring myself to abandon the mine. Production at Osaka is switched back to an archer... AGAIN!

(11) 1870BC
- More barbs appear - this time two warriors.

(12) 1840BC
- The barbs split up: one heading for the city, the other for the mine.

(13) 1810BC
- Both barbs killed, but another warrior is now on the way...

(14) 1780BC
- Kyoto taken off AVOID GROWTH. Warrior is whipped with 1 turn remaining: overspill goes to SH.

(15) 1750BC
- Latest barb warrior destroyed at Osaka.

(16) 1720BC
- The worker has just finished rebuilding the gold mine; however, more friendly faces appear in the distance:

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/6541/civilization42006081018524323ff9.jpg


(17) 1690BC

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/4624/civilization42006081018542764vz9.jpg


(18) 1660BC
- Unfortunately, we are going to have to sacrifice the gems again - it is simply too risky to try to defend them with just 1 archer and 1 warrior. If only we had more units...

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/6485/civilization42006081018563892ri4.jpg


(19) 1630BC
- Sure enough, the gems are pillaged, but we managed to fend off the other barbs.

(20) 1600BC
- We are safe - temporarily. However, the gold mine will be under attack next turn by a warrior:

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/5855/civilization42006081019060015rk6.jpg

You may want to send an archer to defend it; the Guerilla II archer would probably be best...

- Barracks have restarted at Osaka: change if you wish - perhaps to another archer in case things hot up again.
- Meanwhile, at Kyoto, SH is currently due in 29. Note that I'm still running a citizen there as it doesn't delay the research time for Sailing (5 turns).
- Also note: I didn't disband any of the warriors at Kyoto. There didn't seem any point, bearing in mind that we are not paying for any of them (free unit allowance). Moreover, keeping them boosts our power graph (we have been more or less keeping up with Izzy so far). Whether that will make the AI any less likely to attack us is anyone's guess...

~ Save ~ (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/VQ_Red_SG002_BC1600_01.Civ4SavedGame)

First off, I just hope the hell other teams are having just as much trouble with the barbs as we are. Raging barbson a high level just SUCK maybe we're just getting bitten by the RNG, but we're losing too many battles. More barbs appearing seemingly every turn doesn't help matters any.

This is compounded by the fact we have no culture, so there is no way to push back the fog. It will be very interesting to see if any teams lose Osaka to barbs...

Okay, got it. I'll play in about 6 hours.

Right now, we need to get IW as soon as possible, both to secure Osaka from axers and to get swords & axes to fight. We'll also need a settler to secure that iron, and that settler is going to need an archer or two for protection.

IMHO, we don't need bararcks ... that is one good thing abt raging barb, it provides ample exp to relieve you off the need to build bararcks ... of-course you have to survive first, but my experience wth raging barbs has always been "it seems hopless initially, but sooner or later you will be able to ovecome them".

So I would take precious production off barracks, and switch to archers immediately. As long as we place archers fortified on hills and forests, and content to let barbs pillage and don't be tempted to attack, we can't possibly lose too many units to barbs. Sooner or later, our defenders will be promoted, and its time to start sending fog busters out.

We need to survive the initial onslaught and place fog busters out there to stop them from pillaging our lands.

As to IW, unless we have iron in that city ... I doubt so, 6 resources in a BFC???? The mods can;t be that kind!!! ... it is of not much help there before we start pushing fog busters out.

--

@dot: they are all wonders ??

--

AAARGH! :aargh:

Sorry GreyFox, I missed your point before I started playing. I did switch production away from barracks for the same reason you mentioned, but kept at IW.

I played 8 turns. Things are going very badly.

My first turn, I sent the unpromoted archer out to the gold mine. I figured one barb would attack city, the other mine. Unfortunately, both attacked the mine (The one who attacked first was the one who could have hit the city... I've never seen a barb do that before!) and between the two of 'em killed our archer (we had a >70% chance to win the second fight, but still lost, naturally...)

We might lose the gold mine next turn. We have two barbs threatening our capital & gold mine, so I had to send the mine protection ("Swan", our warrior with shock+cover promotions) back to the city (he was down to 0.8 health, so would have died protecting the mine.) A barb warrior could step on the mine and force us to attack to save it, but hopefully he will attack the city (where our guerrilla "gorillas," the Apes, can protect the city.)

We also lost Stonehenge in 1420 BC - we could have whipped it in 2-3 more turns... however, the bright lining is made of a hundred some gold - it lets us run research at 100% for IW, speeding it up immensely.

I then stupidly whipped a granary in Kyoto before the unhappiness penalty of the second whip had expired, give us some extra turns of +1 unhappy. :sad:

I'm frusterated right now at how my turns are playing out, and we have a decision, so I'm going to post my save at this point. I played 8 turns.

Our decision is - settle the islands near the capital, or try to eke it out on the mainland. Coincidentally, all unhappiness from the :whipped: will end in 16 turns, which is the same time it will take to build a settler and to research IW + Sailing - if we can protect the gold mine - so we could whip a galley two turns after the settler finishes and start settling.

Production in Kyoto is currentl]y set to Settler, but don't construe that as an endorsement... it's a dodgy move, but might be our best bet.

In Osaka, we have another archer due in 3 and the gem mine is almost reconstituted, but I've had to dodge barbs so it's not done yet. If I hadn't lost that second archer things would have gone a lot better...

Here's the save. I'll can finish my turns tomorrow, or someone else can grab it :)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135388&stc=1&d=1155268562

@dot: they are all wonders ??

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True. But that ain't what I've been up to. :devil:

Any more ideas? :D

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BTW I think that you're actually doing quite fine. :yup:

Like the old Fox said ... Do not attack the barbs. Let them attack you! But I think that the barracks are of quite some help. You have free CombatI on melee units. But nothing for the archers. With some barracks you could promote them to GuerillaI instantaneously and after the first strike you'll be able to provide them with GuerillaII. A second unit on each tile would be fine, too. Like a warrior with the default CombatI and the MedicI from the barracks. But that's just my 2 :commerce:.

Regards, .

dot is right, let them attack us.

my thoughts.
we are using archers.archers receive defensive bonuses and a first strike. remember, they keep adding i think 5% defense bonus (upto 25%) for every turn fortified. park one or two archers on the gold, fortify. leave 'em. they get 25% from hill and accumulate 25% from sitting fortified. that's a 50% defense bonus on an archer who already gets 25% hills defensive bonus and a first strike. once fortified they're hard to beat (75% defensive bonus on our gold mine). parked on the hill we don't lose the mine. but every time we move 'em we lose the accumulated 5% defensive bonus. we have no bonus when attacking, so only attack warriors. we need to use the terrian to our advantage. this should protect our gold mine from pillaging, allow us to build up more units quicker, branch out to protect the gems. second, park another archer in the forest next to the river. forest=50%+25%accumulated and maybe they will attack from accross the river. if they don't it's okay, we still have the 75% bonus plus a first strike. but as soon as we move him we lose the 25% accumulated. that's kinda how is was thinkin' we could get back in this thing. consolidate our resources. we can not protect both mines right now, and the gold is easier to hold. so hold it and hold off on the gems until we have units to hold it. if we keep running back and forth we bound to lose. eventually the odds will be against us. at lease by fortifing and letting them come to us we tip the odds in our favor.

that's my thinking. i welcome other views and criticism.

sorry about double post

:D What do these buildings have in common, folks?


Angkor Wat
Chichen Itza
Notre Dame
Stonehenge
The Great Lighthouse
The Hanging Gardens
The Kremlin
The Pyramids
The Spiral Minaret
Ironworks
Mt. Rushmore
Oxford University
West Point


They are all double-speed with stone...

Like the old Fox said ... Do not attack the barbs. Let them attack you! But I think that the barracks are of quite some help. You have free CombatI on melee units. But nothing for the archers. With some barracks you could promote them to GuerillaI instantaneously and after the first strike you'll be able to provide them with GuerillaII. A second unit on each tile would be fine, too. Like a warrior with the default CombatI and the MedicI from the barracks. But that's just my 2 :commerce:.

:agree:

Medic I warriors are invaluable as backup when under attack by RB (that's Raging Barbs, not Realms Beyond... :crazyeye: ), and given the peculiar topography of Osaka, some more guerilla IIs will be also welcome for the city and gold. Drill may be better for the gems?

...I think that the barracks are of quite some help.

i agree. also, last pic shows only 5 turns left on rax. we should go ahead and finish. at work so can not check save right now, but 5 turns is worth the exp points.

5 turns could means one critical archer ... ;)

I agree on the fortifying archers. I am not too sure abt settling the islands though ... but we are definitely not going to settle near osaka any time soon, so I say to hell with it, let's settle the islands and see how things go.

Ironsworks is double-speed with stone? :eek: doesn't sees logical to me ... :lol:

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Good thinking there, Codeman (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4392726&postcount=108)! :D And as Scowler pointed out Drill might be fine for the gems! Also upgrading archers with CombatI and MedicI is quite powerful in my experience. As upgrade #3 I like to pick March which will provide me with some archers that can guard my lands and don't need to rest to heal.

Ironsworks is double-speed with stone? :eek: doesn't sees logical to me ... :lol:
Not only that the RNGod hasn't been smiling at us lately, GreyFox, sometimes logic doesn't seem to apply in [civ4]. ;)
Scowler gained +1 quizpoint in the Red Thread by giving the correct answer :goodjob::

They are all double-speed with stone...
And we could gain stone!!!!

If we'd settle the islands to the north of Kyoto we'd have two cities that really beg for the :whipped:. And with stone we might be able to build a couple of wonders. That would help to turn them into brilliant GP-farms. :dubious:
Alright, alright, we'll have no possibility to ship them to the mainland . (Is this term correct or even possible in english?) So they could only help to build stuff on the archipelago or we could use them to speed up our research.
But - on the other hand - gathering 5 GP's and thereby having a doubled Golden Age for 20 turns - :eek: We're in epic, folks!!! :groucho: - seems to be quite a pleasant thought to me. How about you?

Regards, .

All this discussion on moving the palace might need a review after having two possible city sites near Kyoto.

Since you're on a standard size map it takes six courthouses to build the forbidden palace. :mischief: And having that built in Osaka with two other cities nearby will really help to drop your maintenance cost. Furthermore I don't think that it's likely that you're going to have six cities before having CS. So I'd say settle the islands, make sure that Osaka's borders will expand (a lib maybe) and wait for CS to come in. Prepare for the expansion in Osaka and expand as soon as you're ready and as you have CS.

As for the battle I'd advocate to do a lot of preparation. You don't want the AI or the RB to be able to bring you to a halt soon, do you? So it might be good to wait until you'll have a proper and properly experienced force.

And again ... just my two :commerce: waiting to be criticised.

.

Argh. Well, I finished my turns. I couldn't make much headway against the barbs, but our two mines should be secure for a while, except I might have made a huge :smoke: move during my last turn... I moved the archer guarding the gem mine out to the forest w of it. Unfortunately, I didn't notice he was wounded. And, of course, there's a barb next to the forest. It's only a warrior, and the archer is at 2.5 health, so it should be fine, but with our luck...

Speaking of that luck, our wouded Guerrilla 2 archer lost a fight defending Osaka at 90% odds. I could have moved an archer back into the city, but that would endanger the the gold mine. We had our warrior there, so the city wasn't in any danger. I figured if our archer had any real chance of dieing, it would defend with the warrior instead. Big mistake.

Assuming our archer in the forest wins (he's got 2.75 strength vs. 1.33, he'd better... but... :cry:), we've got enough military for defense purposes (at least in the short term) so I started an obelisk. A border pop would really help things out here, as well as let us work our food tiles in addition to the other gems. Also, once the border pops we can move an archer from the gold hill to the forest hill 1s of it, which should make things easier on the southern front. A forest chop comes in two assuming our worker stays unmolested by barbs, so if the next player wants another archer or barracks feel free to switch. I just figured the sooner we get the obelisk, the sooner we get a border pop.

Medic warriors aren't a bad idea, I considered building one but I figured we should finish the barracks first so we can promote them to Medic.


I took notes during the turnset, but really, it's just