View Full Version : Team Piffle


BCLG100
Aug 03, 2006, 07:55 AM
As with the innovia thread, Intelligence gathering is the name of the game!

Team list-
Whomp---playing turns now
Daghdha
gmaharriet
Pentium
grahamiam
Tubby RowerUN rep
Furiey
Bede
Smart
Kickbooti
pindicator
Own
IroquoisPlisken
Oldbushas been playing the save for the first 47 turns
bradleyfeanor
Conroe
SweetacshonAlso plays the turns with Oldbus
Butterball
Melhisedek
Ansar_the_King

They are Elizabeth of England which means they are philosophical and Financial.
that means they get
Great People birth rate increased 100 percent.
Double production speed of University.
And
+1 commerce on plots with 2 commerce.

Their starting techs are Fishing and Mining and their Uu is the Redcoat (lethal)
So i want all info-anything we can get on any of these. i'll start writing some stuff up once i finish creating the threads :)

BCLG100
Aug 03, 2006, 08:23 AM
Hokay this could take awhile now couldnt it

Whomp- CivIVor game-killed Jericho hill
18 player game- probably the most powerful person in the game due to his contacts.
mine and rob's PBEM with him-naturally he'll be getting owned in that soon enough :D
CDZ pitboss game-he's not dead yet, which for some of us involved in that is a VERY big thing :D

OK so here's my thoughts on Bernie, he might not be the most amazing civ4 player but he is extremely good at the diplomasicing behind the game (which in games like this could be more crucial than the real game), he is a lover of the financial trait and the whole idiot thing is totally an act they can fall back on.

Tubby Rower- Civ has taken a back seat recently-obvious due to the whole Baby thing but he's starting to get back into it now, he's not dead in the 18 player game which considering his start means that he like whomp might not be as brilliant at the game but are very good at the diplomacy outside of it.

Furiey-Can't actually play the game because of the bug in her computer or something.

Grahamiam-he is very good at civ3 however am yet to see him finish a civ4 PBEM but the SG's he has played he has one.

Bede-member of the X-team SGOTM team and a pretty good player.

Oldbus-very solid and reliable-good at the mechanics of the game but not so sure about diplomacising

Sweetschon- VERY good at the numbers as can be seen by a couple of his ISDG comments.

Ansar- he nearly spams as much as me but im not sure about his playing ability :D

ok ive got contact with, whomp/tubs/gmaharriet/grahamiam/oldbus.

Robi D
Aug 04, 2006, 12:27 AM
Hey i'm the most powerful in the pitboss game not whomp....hmmm..:mischief:.. on second though Whomp's number 1.

I agree with BC, in these MP games, the diplomacy game outside the game is just as important if not more so and that is one area where Whomp excels although he is not alone in the team. A lot of Piffle are from KISS in the civ3 MTDG and i have had done a lot of wheeling and dealing with them as Doughnuts FM. They have a very savvy team in the diplomatic area so do except to take them for a ride. They are also very honorable with there dealings and would make a good trading partner in the future if the circumstances allow. The whole idiot thing is a front and they are very happy to exploit any weakness they see

BCLG100
Aug 04, 2006, 02:32 AM
One of their weaknesses i find however is that they pick up every piece of information (on one hand this could be good) but if need be we could feed them wrong information and it would get noticed.

robboo
Aug 04, 2006, 07:25 AM
Yep..feeding wrong info is going to be crucial before we attack them. Whomp is old..but he doesnt forget. Any coincidence that Whomp is playign England in the pitboss game too.

This team by far has the most active members.

Robi D
Aug 04, 2006, 08:36 AM
This team by far has the most active members.

I think that comes from the fact that they are all very like minded, which helps with team unity but it means they can all head off down the wrong track too with noone to put the brakes on. Although that doesn't happen often

BCLG100
Aug 04, 2006, 10:01 AM
As rob said elsewhere both Whomp and Tubs are in love with the GL which will be an added benefeit if coastal and with their financial trait.

They will also not be rushed, as is highlighted by tub's very slow attack in the big game :)

BCLG100
Sep 11, 2006, 03:51 PM
I would just like to say that this 18 player game is doing wonders for stressing the internal relations of piffle hopefully, whomp and tubs seem to be falling out slightly :)

robboo
Sep 11, 2006, 04:54 PM
They may be saying the same thing about us BC. I know it seems like you and I have issues in pitboss BUT...we dont really.( at least I dont think you and I do...)

Care to share details of the falling out with someone who hasnt talked to either of them in the last 4 or 5 days. Is it more than the Dave trade?

BCLG100
Sep 11, 2006, 06:58 PM
More hope than anything else :)

robboo
Sep 12, 2006, 06:32 AM
More hope than anything else :)

So are you saying we have a problem..dont make me come over there and kill you troops. I knew you held on to things to much....man what a fool I was to think we were OK....:p







(anyone fell for it):crazyeye:

I know Robi thought we had issues.:)

Robi D
Sep 12, 2006, 06:48 AM
huh- what are you talking about?

Robi D
Sep 27, 2006, 06:26 AM
Just an update, Whomp is playing the turns now

BCLG100
Sep 27, 2006, 06:47 AM
edited, ill update player lists when we have a bigger influx of players again :)

robboo
Sep 27, 2006, 08:03 AM
I am playing Sweet in a PBEM...I am slowly going to probe for info from him after getting to know him a bit.

Robi D
Nov 04, 2006, 12:25 AM
As rob said elsewhere both Whomp and Tubs are in love with the GL which will be an added benefeit if coastal and with their financial trait.

They will also not be rushed, as is highlighted by tub's very slow attack in the big game :)

Oh great prophet BCLG you have seen into the future. Piffle have indeed built the GL:D

robboo
Nov 04, 2006, 05:20 PM
that should be great prophet Robboo if you read what BC said.

We still neeed to push hard for collosous.

Robi D
Nov 04, 2006, 05:36 PM
ok ok, you can be a great prophet too:)

We are still pressing for the colossus, i don't want anyone sneaking in, which i suppose could still happen.

But we are definately favorites for it right now.

robboo
Nov 04, 2006, 07:39 PM
The thing that Tubby and Piffle failed to realize is that it will not help them early since we are so far apart. It wont be till we get all connected that it will help them adn by then they coudl be at war.

Also you can tell who has the ear of the team or who may be calling the shots...Tubby and whomp. We CAN use this. As soon as the 18 player game is done we can spill how they played adn really analyse how they played in that game.

Robi D
Nov 21, 2006, 10:52 PM
This came up during a chat with Whomp. Here's what he had to say about Piffle for your analysis:)

Whomp says:
my civ4 team is nothing like our c3c team
Whomp says:
they aren't quite so outgoing
Rob says:
is it because its some of the trouble makers arn't in it?
Whomp says:
just a different mix
Rob says:
i can't remember who signed up for you guys from the old KISS
Whomp says:
tubby
Whomp says:
kickbooti who's alway a riot
Whomp says:
bede but he hasn't been real active
Whomp says:
killercane but haven't seen him post in a bit
Rob says:
kickbooti is funny
Whomp says:
Conroe and Sweetacshon have helped a lot
Whomp says:
Booti is funny. He's a great person to have on the team

BCLG100
Nov 22, 2006, 05:54 AM
he's said similar things to me also.

robboo
Nov 22, 2006, 06:58 AM
Sweet is a smart guy but based on how much he has been out of town with our PBEM he cant be that helpful.

So am I reading this to mean that Whomp and Tubby have issues or was the Tubby comment something else.

Simon arent you playing Kickboti or is it killercane....I cant remember.

BCLG100
Nov 22, 2006, 06:59 AM
im playing neither, im playing killer

different killer though :)

Robi D
Nov 22, 2006, 07:10 AM
That way just midway through chatting. I didn't prompt him but when the issue came up i couldn't help but try to dig a little deeper. Bascally he was lamenting that there wasn't as much fun happening in the Piffle forum as there was is KISS. I got him to list the old KISS players in Piffle just trying to feel things out. That he spilled some beans, well good for us. Sweet seems to have had some influence, but then he did play a lot of the earier turns. We do know whomp and Tubs like the GL so they obviously have enough influence in the team to make them go that way. Whomp also mentioned at one stage that he was looking for someone else to take over playing the saves but i couldn't find that part when i was copy/pasting.

The other person he mentions is conroe, anyone played with him previously?

robboo
Nov 22, 2006, 09:35 AM
Hmmm...so what are they saying about us. Other than our lack of numbers in here and posting other places we seem to get along great and dont have much contention/head banging.

BCLG100
Nov 22, 2006, 09:37 AM
No but apparantly he's decent, plays the gotm or something.

whomp was saying he had no part in discussion for GL at all, so i think that was prob's tubby's idea

BCLG100
Nov 22, 2006, 09:40 AM
Hmmm...so what are they saying about us. Other than our lack of numbers in here and posting other places we seem to get along great and dont have much contention/head banging.


Well no ive managed to convince both mauer and whomp that i have a hatred of you :)

i think its a good idea to promote the idea of disharmony within the team, reckon the prez should maybe mass PM all the members not posting?

robboo
Nov 22, 2006, 10:00 AM
I cant stand you either.....bastard. :)

mauer is pissed off at me still for saying he was building marines in the pitboss game. He hasnt talked to me in Pm since then. Funny thing is...I ddint know he was making marines i only guessed...my spy was busy pillaging your resources.

Robi D
Nov 26, 2006, 04:16 AM
Does anyone else find it interesting that with Whomp out of town no one in Piffle has been around/able/willing to play the save in nearly 4 days.

I'm not one to complain but should we ask the admins to get involved?

BCLG100
Nov 26, 2006, 06:23 AM
just been played but yep see what you mean :)

robboo
Nov 26, 2006, 05:29 PM
leave it be...it was also an American holiday...so no one may have been around.

Just relax and when they start complainin about someone else...we bring this up.

/I will need some pitboss replacements around Christamas...12/26 to 12/31. I will have internet but not civ. In tubby's 2 Civ pitboss game and in the CDZ group hug...if anyone can play let me know. I dont care about the warlords game.

Robi D
Nov 26, 2006, 10:21 PM
leave it be...it was also an American holiday...so no one may have been around.

Just relax and when they start complainin about someone else...we bring this up.

/I will need some pitboss replacements around Christamas...12/26 to 12/31. I will have internet but not civ. In tubby's 2 Civ pitboss game and in the CDZ group hug...if anyone can play let me know. I dont care about the warlords game.

I understand there was a holiday in america, but they still haven't played the turn, its 4 1/2 days now. I would have expected at least one person to be availible in that time. I wont say anything about it but it is.

With the other games they will probably take them down over the christmas period as most people travel at that time.

robboo
Nov 27, 2006, 08:43 PM
thats cool but i agree someone should have been able to play. It appears that not every team is as well organized and devoted as ours..... and thatis only to our advantage.

StrategyDoRk
Nov 27, 2006, 09:26 PM
I have RE-devoted myself ;)

Though I still can't get Civ to work on this laptop >.<

Robi D
Jan 01, 2007, 08:54 PM
I ran into Whomp and i figured it would be good to kick things off and get an idea of where we are. We talked about a couple of different games so i've edited the others out for your convienience:) . I have put things in bold that i though was particualrly interesting. My comments are in (brackets)


Rob says:
ok civ4 it is
Rob says:
simon is the man for foriegn stuff but he is away for a couple of day
Whomp says:
no probs
Rob says:
we can still talk about some things, i still remember how to do the diplomacy thing
Whomp says:

Whomp says:
Our team is happy to meet you guys for sure
Rob says:
so i gather you guys are interested in peace and friendship
Whomp says:
We are
Whomp says:
My personal #1 partner but we can discuss whether you're interested in that or not
Rob says:
we are happy to have a positive relationship with you guys
Rob says:
if we can work it out personally i'm happy to have it that us 2 are the last ones left
Whomp says:
my thinking as well
Whomp says:
sounds like a broken record
Rob says:
so who have you met/found?
Whomp says:
We've met Epsilon...eek
Whomp says:
you?
Rob says:
i though as much
Rob says:
we have found Innovia and met Loco
Whomp says:
ok cool
Rob says:
Innovia have been friendly and Loco coolish
Whomp says:
i wonder if we can figure out some tech deals
Whomp says:
epsilon has offered a 20% discount on their techs
Whomp says:
and 50% if paid in cash
(this was a big thing, they are pretty desperate to trade. Also their gold offer is suicidal for Piffle which Whomp said as much later on, but its clear they are trying to find a way to run 100% research)

Rob says:
as for Loco we are not sure whether or not thats down to the lack of MTDG expierence in the team
Whomp says:
i'm putting my trust in you by giving you that info
Rob says:
interesting offer
Whomp says:
but i'd like to make a long term deal with you guys
Rob says:
we haven't had much time to talk about it in the team since most are off on holidays so i don't want to mislead you by getting to specific but we would be interested in looking at tech swapping on a beaker for beaker basis
Whomp says:
i'd think loco is timid because they don't know who to trust
Whomp says:
ok
Rob says:
i suppose you guys would be interested in maths?
Whomp says:
i would like to take advantage of Epsilon's lead
Rob says:
what do they have?
Whomp says:
having Bureau has helped them enormously
Rob says:
i agree with that
Rob says:
that has given them a boost
Whomp says:
i'd have to look but they are powerful already
Whomp says:
interesting map with the isthmus'
Rob says:
yes from what we can see its an interesting layout, but we haven't done as much exploring as we would have liked
Whomp says:
civ4 is a tough game trying to balance out everything you want
Rob says:
especially when your scouts get eaten
Whomp says:
we had a couple shocking losses
Whomp says:
curse Sirian
Rob says:
hehe
Rob says:
what are you researching currently?
Whomp says:
CoL
Rob says:
ok
Rob says:
we can probably still work some deals out of the next few turns
Whomp says:
OBs with no units?
Whomp says:
boats maybe?
Whomp says:
could you use the trade route?
Rob says:
do we have a trade route available? (i'll need to check that)
Whomp says:
not sure
Whomp says:
should soon i'd think
Rob says:
well i don't think anyone would disagree with having OB
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
see what your team thinks about a long term partnership
Rob says:
and i don't see the need for any unit restrictions (I not bothered about their galley and i want our scout to be able to wander through their territory)
Whomp says:
we'd rather not partner with epsilon for reasons I think we're both well aware of
Rob says:
haha yes quite correct
Rob says:
there is about 4 i can think of
(for those that arn't aware, Epsilon consists mainly of people from MIA in the first C3C MTDG, who won (1st reason) During the game, while they did not break any agreements as such, they willingly pushed the limits of them and always looked for the tiniest loophole to take advantage of at the expense of the other team(2nd and main reason). Also DaveMcW who's on the team won the MTDG pitboss(3rd reason) and with Beuro early are leading this one too(4th reason). Not that i have sour grapes but its time to share the love around:D )

Rob says:
well next time one of us gets the save OB can be sent
Whomp says:
ok
Whomp says:
i'll post this
Whomp says:
and when simon gets back we can talk or Killercane
Rob says:
no probs
Rob says:
btw have you guys discovered Iron Working?
Whomp says:
i'd like to manipulate that epsilon offer
Whomp says:
there's got to be a way for us to get to tech parity and lead i'd think
Whomp says:
I think we have
Rob says:
have you found Iron deposits anywhere?
Whomp says:
hehe
Whomp says:
no and i assume you haven't either
Rob says:
nope (looks like we are going to have to work out tactics for an ironless world)
Rob says:
damn sirian
Whomp says:
haha
Whomp says:
elephants lol
Rob says:
*shakes fist*
Rob says:
there is a positive to that
Rob says:
only one team has an iron dependant UU
Rob says:
guess which one
Whomp says:
Epsilon
Rob says:

Rob says:
somehow i can't bring myself to feel sorry for them
Whomp says:
Sirian really messed up the traditional way of doing things
Rob says:
i like it myself, make you think about things because you can't use the same tactics as always
Rob says:
No iron means no pike, crossbows, knights, cannons and frigates oh and swords
Rob says:
i must say epsilons offer is an interesting one, they definately are eager for gold? were they asking 1 gold per beaker?
Whomp says:
they're eager for a partner
Whomp says:
the gold part is suicide
Rob says:
absolutely, they want to run 100% research
Whomp says:
right
Whomp says:
unless we're able to stick it to them somehow i doubt we'd do that and are very leery of the 20% too
Rob says:
Well from our stand point at this current time it could be possible to have a 3 way alliance with us and Innovia since like i said they have been friendly (if we could work this one out then we can negate Epsilons lead and get one of our own, and out of the 3 teams i think we would be in the best position to win)
Whomp says:
that would be fine too
Rob says:
If Epsilon want to deal with Loco then good luck to them
Whomp says:
well i think we'd be open to a 3 way partnership
Whomp says:
and crush the others either financially or militarily
Rob says:
a 3 way trading alliance would nullifly any advantage Epsilon would have gotten from getting CS early
Whomp says:
they made no stipulations on trades either
Whomp says:
so the 20% one could haunt them (getting cheap tech from Epsilon to catch up their lead would be funny:) )
Rob says:
interesting
Whomp says:
right so if we can all coordinate research all the better
Rob says:
they couldn't be that silly
Whomp says:
no stipulations
Whomp says:
they're looking for a partner...i think they know they're Davemcw
Rob says:
oh well thats something to look into at some stage
Rob says:
so they haven't met anyone except you?
Whomp says:
they haven't asked and neither have we
Rob says:
the only other possiblity is Loco
Whomp says:
that's not helping them i'd think
Whomp says:
though i don't know loco's makeup since we haven't met them
Rob says:
i'm happy for them to stay isolated
Whomp says:
Me too
Whomp says:
but i'd like to take advantage of them somehow
Rob says:
anyway i should go and post this stuff so our boffins can have a look at it and see that we can get some deals up and going quickly
Whomp says:
ok sounds good
Rob says:
lets not do the taking advantage again
Whomp says:

Rob says:
didn't work last time and i'm not trying it again
Rob says:

Whomp says:
different deal
Whomp says:
we have no stipulations
Whomp says:
so we'll see
Rob says:
ideally we would like to meet them with a greeting party of about 15 cossaks and support staff
Rob says:
outside one of their cities of course
Whomp says:
heheh
Whomp says:
ok well i better go too. Vegas tomorrow.
Rob says:
no probs, have a good time



Basically my 2 cents are
- I'm happy to trade with Piffle and if possible get a 3 way tech trading allaince between Innovia, Piffle and us. Epsilon's lead would disapear very quickly.
- I don't want to commit to any military action until we know where everyone is on the map and how everyone would gain from the removal of a team. I don't want to expend units for another team to get more out of it than us.
- We do have to look at the ways no iron will effect the game and work out a way to use it to our advantage.
- We are in a good position, if we can have our 9 or so cities covering our peninsular quickly, then we can start developing them and expanding outward into the empty regions.

robboo
Jan 01, 2007, 09:38 PM
that deal with whomp sounds reasonable. I will post more when i have more time( ie from work)

robboo
Jan 02, 2007, 07:00 AM
OK longer version....

Epsilon....DaveMcW offered the same thing to me in the pitboss game right before the "Westerns" attacked. I expect he is using the same formula for success in this game. I think Epsilon needs to die first.

Map...whomp gave away alot with this statement and with the iron. Also he either has the UU memorized or he also did what we did about who doesnt have iron. The irony of this is what if epsilon has iron.

3 way tech allaince....we need to get Innovia on board and quick before loco gets them on board. We also need to figure out if its an open exchange or beaker for beaker. This could be a major sticking point which could stop mid fight from killing Epsilon. This is a variation of what happened in the pitboss game. In addition...we need to make sure we dont help someone more than ourselves by removing Epsilon( as you said Robi)


This is the kind of open discussion I feel we have been waiting on. We need one just like this with Innovia. Now its time to see if Innovia is ready to join the 3 way. If not...then we need to figure out where they stand.

Robi D
Jan 02, 2007, 07:21 AM
As far as Epsilon having Iron, i would be surprised if Sirian did that on purpose. Them losing the use of a UU is far less unfair the the rest of us losing the use of 3 key mid game units (cannons, knights, frigates)
Then only way anyone would get iron is the potluck method of mining a hill and working it. Even then their is only a 5% chance of discovering something and its not just iron, it could be gold, silver, copper, gems and later on coal and uranium. If they could get that lucky then good luck to them. The other possibility is that there is a pile of iron around the middle where no ones explored yet.

I think Innovia would go for a 3 way trade alliance, all 3 of us are in a similar position tech wise, and it would give all 3 a big advantage in that area. We could easily make up the early Epsilon advantage got from Beurocracy. I think the best way to proceed with the techs is beaker for beaker, its absolute and leaves no room for arguments latter on. If i learned one thing about multi-team alliances from pitboss its that the smallest things can create friction.

Military wise i'm not sure if Innovia would be eager or not. But before we start making plans on that front we need to pinpoint everyones location in respect to us, so the military thing is not the biggest concern at the moment.


As for right now with Piffle there is an oppertunity now to do a few trades for backfill of techs. We can get Meditation, Masonry and Archery off them for Maths and have a few beakers left over for future trades or even ask for the account to be settled with some gold. Is that a good deal for us? yes/no/maybe?

robboo
Jan 02, 2007, 08:04 AM
i like that trade and settling for gold is cool with me too or they may want to "open and account of beakers" :)

Leave the settlement up to them, lets not demand gold for a balance just tell them they have to make it right with either gold(x per beaker) or with a future tech trade.

Kuningas
Jan 02, 2007, 10:35 PM
We declare war to team Epsilon eventually, before they get too strong. Team Piffle would make a great ally in that. Team Innovia will not join us in crusade against Epsilon, neither they join Epsilon's side. Team Loco is a question mark, may be that Epsilon would try to convert Locos to their Vassal States.

Robi D
Jan 03, 2007, 05:02 AM
Just got this from Piffle

Robi,

Team Piffle is wondering if you guys wanted to swap CoL and Math for Civil Service or some of the other techs we have. We are 6 turns from getting CoL ourselves but if we could trade it this turn then we can go ahead and use our Great Merchant for CS and maybe share the wealth. Work out actual tech costs later... Talk to me or Whomper when you get a chance.

Casey

We can't trade CoL as Innovia gave it to us. I think we should be up front as to the reason. We can offer them Calandar which is a similar value. From memory Math and Calandar would still be a little less then CS but they seem eager to trade and i think we can work out a good deal.

Any thoughts?

robboo
Jan 03, 2007, 07:19 AM
Talk to Innovia and tell them of our 3 way deal. See what they say.

Honestly tell Piffle of our problem. It shows we honor our deals and we are willing to attempt to work things out. To make them happy.

I think we should talk to both teams about the situation and see if we can reach a deal.

BCLG100
Jan 03, 2007, 09:45 AM
Erm it would be pointless offering them calendar instead of CoL as CoL is a pre req for CS and therefore they wouldnt be able to pop CS with their GM, it seems that they had the same idea as kuningas about the GM pop. Therefore it has to be Code of laws. However we cant trade this.

Dear Piffleness

Well im back now, time to kick this foreign policies arse. We cant trade CoL was the stipulations in our tech deal. We will have to check with whom we traded it to find out whether this deal can be accomplished. We will get back to you asap

regards
bclg

and now to innovia

greetings

we recieved an offer from team piffle to trade math and CoL with them for Civil service, naturally we informed them that we couldnt due to the stipulation placed on CoL by both teams. However we ask that we can trade it and then off CS to you for a discount NEED TO DECIDE HOW MUCH-HOW ABOUT 50% off?.

regards
BCLG

Robi D
Jan 03, 2007, 11:12 PM
Piffle are already researching CoL and will have it in 6 turns. They asked for the trade to speed thing up because they have a GM to lightbulb CS

BCLG100
Jan 04, 2007, 04:49 AM
Yes i know and someone proposed we give them calendar instead of CoL, that wouldnt work as part of their CS research.

Robi D
Jan 04, 2007, 04:59 AM
Yes i know and someone proposed we give them calendar instead of CoL, that wouldnt work as part of their CS research.

Well we don't have anything else to give them for CS. Piffle will have CoL in about 5 turns. I think to get a deal going that involves Piffle and Innovia would be difficult to do quickly since they haven't met.

THe most likely thing that will happen is Piffle research CoL and lighbulb CS, which has a base value (from the chart) of 800 beakers. Math and Calandar are 350 each (CoL is also 350). It might not match their path but we have nothing else to offer for a while.

BCLG100
Jan 04, 2007, 05:07 AM
Well i proposed both scenarios to them.

BCLG100
Jan 12, 2007, 08:28 AM
Simon says:
i sent a reply to whomp about 1 maybe 2 hours ago concerning the tech deal
Simon says:
how about this one
casey j says:
we were thinking monarchy + math, then just work something else out for tech costs later. you guys would just owe us a debt to work out
Simon says:
math, monarchy and calendar for CS and med
Simon says:
it leaves you 23 beakers in our debt
casey j says:
med?
Simon says:
but pretty non importantin
Simon says:
meditation
casey j says:
ah
casey j says:
that might work
casey j says:
lets see
casey j says:
we want to get a friend in bureaucracy with us
casey j says:
to take on Epsilon's commanding tech power
Simon says:
yep
Simon says:
well from memory we can have a better gnp without beauro
Simon says:
than epsilon right now
casey j says:
i posted that in the forums, we will see what the team says
Simon says:
also, with your permision we'd trade CS on to innovia and give you a cut price deal on whatever we get in return
Simon says:
that way the 3 of us would be in beauro
casey j says:
what do they have?
Simon says:
ill just check
casey j says:
to give in return
Simon says:
sorry my internets slow just getting into team forums now
casey j says:
no problem, how much more school do you have to go
Simon says:
2 and a half years
casey j says:
man
casey j says:
thats a long hard road!
Simon says:
damn i just missed theoden
Simon says:
(on msn that is)
Simon says:
ok our forums are more messed up than KISS's were
Simon says:
but from the gist of it it seems innovia will have CS v soon also
Simon says:
ok im just going to load up the game see the techs everyone has and this will make more sense
casey j says:
ok
casey j says:
im trying to see what else is good out there but i cant load these pbem saves for some reason
casey j says:
what about construction?
Simon says:
hmmm well what would you say about trading CS from us and using your GM on something else?
casey j says:
damn simon you are going to make me pull up GP tech preferences arent you?
casey j says:

Simon says:
lol i imagine its currency next
casey j says:
thats a good idea
casey j says:
currency is almost done by Epsilon, i know they were wanting to trade it recently but we havent replied
casey j says:
we could get machinery
Simon says:
ok just downloading save now and opening tech screen on cfc
Simon says:
math CS for currency machinery
Simon says:
that'd leave us about 100 beakers in your debt i think
casey j says:
hmm let me see what the team thinks
casey j says:
what about monarchy
casey j says:
we are also interested in construction for cats
casey j says:
in case we go to war w/ epsilon
Simon says:
hmmm i dont think we have it
casey j says:
ok maybe we could work out some future deals and direct research
casey j says:
are you usually on about this time?
Simon says:
kinda varied recently
Simon says:
but i can be on fairly often
casey j says:
i'll pm you or something
casey j says:
but i will see what we want to do and get back to you asap
Simon says:
the amount of piffle members i have on my msn im sure ill find someone
casey j says:
do you know how close innovia is to CS?
Simon says:
just loading up the save really
Simon says:
'very soon' is what we got in last chat i had with them
casey j says:
hmm ok, we will get something worked out
Simon says:
they already have it
Simon says:
according to latest save
casey j says:
oh well good
casey j says:
let me get some feedback and i will track you down and we can get this done
Simon says:
hmmm hang on a sex
Simon says:
*sec
Simon says:
the only problem is that looking at the save now they appear to have all the techs we were offering them
casey j says:
damn
casey j says:
did they meet someone?
Simon says:
im not sure, they were interested in forming a 3 way against epsilon
Simon says:
but basically if you can get them techs they also dont have them so we can trade them so all 3 of us have it
casey j says:
alright, well we were 7 turns from machinery before we changed to CoL, so we will have that soon, and we might be able to trade for currency from Epsilon with outdated techs that they dont have
casey j says:
if that is so, we could be tech leaders for a while

thats a chat i just had with cane.


basically if we can get CS from innovia we can trade it with piffle for currency and machinery.

for innvoia

Greetings innoverians

Sorry for the delay in reply ive been busy recently. We were wondering whether you'd be interested in swapping machinery and calender for Civil service and meditation?

We should have machinery shortly but if we were to have CS before then we could get it quicker and then maybe ignore the beaker difference between the deal :)

Regards
BCLG


how does that sound, we adapted the truth slightly with wanting to get CS sooner rather than later.

robboo
Jan 12, 2007, 09:07 AM
sounds good

BCLG100
Jan 15, 2007, 09:09 AM
hmmmm pooo.....

casey j says:
the piffle people dont want to give up machinery, im afraid
casey j says:
i think they want to just use our GM for CS and trade that to you with meditation. do you have a religion yet?
Simon says:
we already have CS....
Simon says:
we were under the assumption that you had already agreed to the tech deal
casey j says:
who agreed?
Simon says:
sorry?
casey j says:
i agreed?
casey j says:
or whomp or?
Simon says:
just opening up the forums
Simon says:
Did you find out if you guys can get CS from Innovia? I think we can get Currency from Epsilon to throw in the mix if you need trade bait, they have been knocking down our door to trade something/anything. We can send meditation this turn for a good will interest payment on whatever we decide to do
Simon says:
that one implied to us that you wanted to proceed with the trade
casey j says:
with what trade though? we hadnt worked out the details
casey j says:
you hadnt heard from innovia at that time
Simon says:
well hang on ill just check whether we have CS yet
casey j says:
i dont want to be a pain but we do have to vote on everything
Simon says:
no i appreciate that
casey j says:
if it was just me i would say sure lets do it
Simon says:
yup i know, im just checking if the deal has actually gone through yet
Simon says:
just speaking to dutchfire now
Simon says:
alas, we have already traded CS with them
Simon says:
and we now have it avaliable
Simon says:
unfortunatly if your not willing to trade machinery for it we're going to have to research it ourselves to hold to our end of the bargain with innovia
casey j says:
k we will see what they say
Simon says:
apologies for the mix up
casey j says:
i am for it but others arent
casey j says:
what about calendar for currency swap?
Simon says:
we can if it would make piffle happier force innovia to agree to a no trade further with machinery (ie so it doesnt get to epsilon)
casey j says:
hmm ok i will post that
Simon says:
we would prefer to trade machinery with you than self research it obviously
Simon says:
and also stop you wasting a GM on a tech the majority of the game already have
Simon says:
if you dont mind me asking what were the reasons for not trading machinery?
Simon says:
so you could have a monopoly on maces?
casey j says:
i don t know, some didnt want to trade it
casey j says:
no iron
casey j says:
so no maces
Simon says:
im not sure what kind of crazy maces you build
Simon says:
Maceman
Melee Units 8 1 70 Civil Service
Machinery
Copper or Iron Rifleman
Grenadier +50% vs. Melee Units
Simon says:
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/units/
casey j says:
damn i thought you could build them with copper but someone else was yammering on about no maces
Simon says:
team piffle can have that info for free
casey j says:
ha
Simon says:
but if you can find a reason for not trading us the tech, aloha would be happy to answer the question
Simon says:
the only reason i see for not trading it, is that it makes it marginally cheaper for epsilon but now as we'll have to research it anyways it'll be cheaper soon enough anyways
casey j says:
well simon i want to, and you are right, but it is a pain to duplicate research when we could both be doing something for fruitful
Simon says:
exactly
casey j says:
*more fruitful
Simon says:
mind if i bring the bald one in?
casey j says:
yes
Simon says:
lol
casey j says:
bring him on i just saw him get on

so it appears after the positivness we got from cane the rest of piffle didnt actually want to do the deal.

im now trying to pursuade bernie and cane that its the right idea.

BCLG100
Jan 15, 2007, 09:57 AM
casey j says:
no Aloha wants to send us CS for machinery basically
casey j says:
and some other stuff
casey j says:
and i thought some would object (Conroe)
Whomp says:
would it be traded to innovia?
Simon says:
hmmm, well CS is worth more, we save you a GM, everyone can research more to kill epsilon- i dont see why not?
Simon says:
yes it would be
Whomp says:
and the other team?
Simon says:
loco?
Whomp says:
si mucho loco
Simon says:
no, not for many a moon
Simon says:
talking to them is like getting blood from a stone
Simon says:
we just wait for them to contact us when they want something
Simon says:
so if you want we can say machinery is untradable
Simon says:
to loco
Whomp says:
I would simply like to participate in any booty received from the tech
Whomp says:
so if you make a deal with them I think we'd like a piece of that action if it's possible
Simon says:
of course
Simon says:
we'd inform you if we were and then give you a discount or whatever on whatever we recieve
Simon says:
if that makes sense?
Whomp says:
so after everything's said and done are we all at tech parity?
Simon says:
no, i think you are still a little behind
Whomp says:
Why?
Simon says:
we right now have CS, calender, monarchy and math
Whomp says:
Becauase you have contacts?
Simon says:
you have meditation
Simon says:
no, we've self researched most of them
Simon says:
except CS obviously
casey j says:
i thought we were getting calendar and math so we could provide you with currency
Simon says:
math 250, calender 350 for currency 400?
casey j says:
this is the most complicated trade in the history of civ
Simon says:
and then CS 800 for machinery 700
Whomp says:
Right tell me the bottom line
Simon says:
well i think that would mean you owe us a lot of beakers
Simon says:
basically we thought you'd already agreed to trade us machinery thus we continued with the deal with innovia for CS and med for machinery and calender
Simon says:
now it appears we were mistaken or there was confusion or something which means your not going to be trading us machinery
Simon says:
thus we will have to self research it to fulfill our agreement with innovia
casey j says:
no we just have to vote on it
casey j says:
so we need to get some clarity
Simon says:
indeed, we obviously want to trade with you as epsilon is a problem that needs to be dealt with and one way of doing so is beating them tech wise
Whomp says:
right so then how far behind are we in techs if this deal goes down
Whomp says:
the reality is we have the biggest threat from epsilon
Simon says:
erm, well if just the machinery one went down
Simon says:
you'd have currency
Simon says:
whilst we would have calender, monarchy and math
casey j says:
if we trade med and machinery, for CS, and math and calendar, then provide you with currency wehn our trade with epsilon goes through, how much do we owe you? and how do we make that up?
Simon says:
well we are already getting med from innovia now
Simon says:
but without giving us currency thats about 700 beakers
Simon says:
then with currency thats 300 beakers you owe us
casey j says:
how do we make that up?
Simon says:
you could research construction?
Simon says:
thats 350 beakers
Simon says:
which'd then leave us about 50 beakers in your debt
Whomp says:
how did we get get behind when our GNP is what it is?
Whomp says:
it has to be your trades with innovia
Simon says:
but then we could gift you them techs now in compensation of that?
Simon says:
which would be quite a large good faith agreement if you think about it
Simon says:
we have traded with innovia yes
Simon says:
our only tech though that wasnt traded with innovia from that list is civil service iirc
Simon says:
we also have literature (but i think you already have that)
Whomp says:
so that's why we're behind
Whomp says:
so we need to trade with epsilon to keep pace
Whomp says:
that's what i'm hearing
Simon says:
if thats what you choose to do, i just offered you a perfectly good way of not doing that
Simon says:
as once you achieve tech parity you'll be able to trade with us and innovia more easily
Whomp says:
Well if we owe beakers it's the only way
Simon says:
especially as in theory you could achieve tech parity next turn whilst we have to wait for you to give us machinery, currency and construction
Whomp says:
Cane do you follow this?
Whomp says:
I'm old and decreipt so....
Simon says:
basically what im proposing is this
Simon says:
(in the grand scheme of things basically) we give you CS, math and calender.........you give us machinery, currency and construction
Simon says:
that leaves you only monarchy short
Whomp says:
One thing we need too
Simon says:
well we can change calender for monarchy if you want?
Simon says:
but then it means we owe you a few more beakers
casey j says:
so if we agree are you sending all 3 techs this turn?
casey j says:
this upcoming turn i mean
Simon says:
well, id have to see what everyone else thinks
Simon says:
but we could agree to sending all 3
Simon says:
or we could agree to sending 2 now and then the 3rd when you've completed machinery and we just have to wait on construction?
casey j says:
i think we would need all three next turn
Whomp says:
if you send all three we may be able to manipulate Epsilon's deal better
casey j says:
to proceed on that path
Simon says:
how would that make a difference?
casey j says:
1) get currency from epsilon- we need math, calendar
casey j says:
2) CS will get us to construction sooner with increased beakers
casey j says:
3) everyone benefits
Simon says:
4)we end up giving you a load of techs which will bring you up to tech parity and then you might turn around and side with epsilon
casey j says:
HA
Simon says:
thats what we have to worry about
casey j says:
i assure you that is not going to happen
casey j says:
Whomp?
Simon says:
if we give you math and calender, how soon can we have currency?
casey j says:
soon as we trade it to epsilon
casey j says:
2 turns i guess
casey j says:
more gold via trade routes for us both
Simon says:
didnt epsilon agree to a 20% discount on techs with you?
Whomp says:
They've made that offer and we'd prefer to never use it
casey j says:
yes we can manipulate that
Simon says:
so why would you be giving them pretty much 500 beakers for a 400 beaker tech?
casey j says:
no they have math
casey j says:
and currency
casey j says:
calendar is 350 vs. currency 400 right?
Simon says:
yep
Simon says:
but you said before
casey j says:
1) get currency from epsilon- we need math, calendar
casey j says:
we need math, to open up calendar, we cant get calendar w/o math
casey j says:
receive calendar i mean
Simon says:
ah ok my apologies my mistake
casey j says:
in the end, everyone will be up machinery on Epsilon. what are you and innovia going to research while we provide construction?
Simon says:
hmmm how far away from machinery are you?
casey j says:
I dont know
casey j says:
since we will have an anarchy for CS
Simon says:
do you know how far away right now?
casey j says:
let me dig that up
casey j says:
or if whomp can open up the save that would work too
Whomp says:
i'm not aware either
Whomp says:
should i open a save?
Simon says:
do you not have a turn tracker thread or something?
casey j says:
i dont know, the bottom line is it wont be over 7-10 turns
casey j says:
i dont know how big of a boost we will get due to bureau
Simon says:
ah ok, then with construction thats another 7-10 turns
Simon says:
by that time we shall probably have philosophy and music
casey j says:
are you on philosophy now?
Simon says:
in a way
casey j says:
using a GS?
Simon says:
think thats the plan
Simon says:
though we may set up an acadamy
Whomp says:
brb
casey j says:
i thought you guys had a religion already
Simon says:
nope
casey j says:
ah ok, well maybe we can do construction and go on the bottom path. how soon are you popping your GS? you might be able to use him for optics

You have just sent a Nudge!

Simon says:
sorry about that
casey j says:
and open up guilds
casey j says:
heh
Simon says:
i think the team was fairly set on philosophy
Simon says:
but we're generally sticking ot the top of the tree
Simon says:
we could pursuade innovia to go down the middle?
casey j says:
maybe i meant feudalism before, merchants can be used on Guilds
casey j says:
but no iron i forgot
casey j says:
so no knights
Simon says:
you could always travel the merchant and use the money to do a mass upgrade of axes to rush epsilon with?
casey j says:
i thought of that, but i dont know if we are positioned to do that effectively. we want to kill them off
Simon says:
*shrug* anyways friends are coming over now so im going to have to head off
Simon says:
speak to you asap about that deal
Simon says:
if you find the techs sent with no message from me just accept


so what you guys think, we give them CS, math and calender next turn and then in the following 15 turns they give us, construction, machinery and currency :)

Robi D
Jan 15, 2007, 11:57 PM
so what you guys think, we give them CS, math and calender next turn and then in the following 15 turns they give us, construction, machinery and currency :)

Ok thats all a bit odd. Here are my thoughts in no specific order

1. First off killercane breaks the most basic rule of diplomacy in promising something thats not his to promise. Every should know if you need team approval for a deal to say that is the case. In effect its dropped us in the s*** because we went to make trades based on his remarks with Innovia.

2. Given their desire to get rid of epsilon, why is the team against a trade that helps them. We did not offer the trade to them, they (cane and whomp) offered it to us in our talks (me with whomp and BC with cane)

3. I could be misreading it but i didn't like their tone, like it is our fault they are lagging tech wise. They could have traded with epsilon at any stage but didn't want to and epsilon has outplayed them and gotten ahead in techs. Now they seem to be resentful of us because we traded with our neighbours, so they now think its our responsibility to bring them up to speed at our cost, and not just over a couple of tech deals but in this one.

4. Without knowing the map, given piffle are the first ones to have met epsilon means they are the closest to them and therefore stand the most to gain out of their demise, so if we are going to give them techs and military help what is in it for us, so far they haven't offered anything that we could get from Innovia.

5. I surprise that as a team they were unaware that you can build maces with copper:eek: I mean how hard is it to check?

6. We are being very generous with the above deal, it would help them catch up at least half the tech they are behind, yet they are still unsure and somewhat unhappy.

Given all that i'm not really sure the deal is in our best interests, because to take a leap of faith on Piffle is a bit difficult for me given their attitude, i can't help but feel that we will somehow get burnt in the end.

robboo
Jan 16, 2007, 05:04 AM
I feel the same....especially when Whomp left after you said that you could turn on us.

We know Dave is famous for his you dont attack me i wont attack you deal. I bet he made that deal with them. Then once we decide to hit them these guys can lag back...another thing that Tubby is known for. We have an advantage..why give it away. I think we need to be more loyal to innovia.

BCLG100
Jan 16, 2007, 07:44 AM
Indeed however if you look at the average tech values we are infact winning

math 250 calender 350 and CS 800 for machinery 700 currency 400 and construction 350

we get about 50 beakers more, of course the tech prices ingame are different but that doesnt mean we dont still hold an advantage.

we are also giving them 1 tech which every other team has (math) and one tech which 3 out of 5 teams have (CS) the only thing we have that the majority dont is calender (us and innovia). Right now no-one has machinery, only epsilon has currency and no-one has construction.

We're also getting out of this deal a bunch of techs we cant be bothered to research, i know what you mean about the tone-especially with whomp that he was blaming us because we were further ahead in tech- it is there own fault they chose not to trade with epsilon. However i do agree this deal is in our best interests especially so we can hold up our end of the bargain sooner with innovia :)

Robi D
Jan 16, 2007, 11:57 PM
I don't have a problem with the tech deal as it stands with respect to the techs, but piffles attitude is a worry. They seem to be fishing for extra help and seem to feel we owe it to them. Also it must be said their game play on the face of it has so far not inspired. Overall we have already commited ourselves in a way to the deal going through so i would say lets do it, but if piffle come back with any changes to the proposal then i would be looking at the whole thing very closely

robboo
Jan 17, 2007, 05:44 AM
agreed with Robi the trade is sound..its just the delivery from their side.

BCLG100
Jan 17, 2007, 10:18 AM
ok can you offer them the techs asap :)

BCLG100
Jan 17, 2007, 10:36 AM
Hey

The people of Aloha have agreed to the following tech swap

we give you civil service, math and calender in exchange for
machinery, currency and construction. This is under the assumption that we recieve all three techs within 20 turns- given your explanation on tech rate in chat we assume this wont be a problem :)

best
simon

just sent that to cane

robboo
Jan 17, 2007, 10:38 AM
off hand what would we get right now from them....

i wish we could see what epsilon had and what they get..once we meet them we can watch for any "tech cheating "by piffle.

BCLG100
Jan 17, 2007, 10:43 AM
right now we get nothing, they have no techs that we want.

innovia have met epsilon i was speaking to dutch about it the other day so i shall see what they say.

cane onetime claimed they'd met everyone but that is obviously false or they wouldnt be making such a deal with us :)

robboo
Jan 17, 2007, 11:41 AM
well if they lied about meeting everyone...should we trust them on other more important things.

Look I am not saying they are not trustworthy BUT they may be playing a "bad guys" game. I am just starting not to trust them as much as Dutchs teams

BCLG100
Jan 17, 2007, 11:49 AM
i know what you mean but maybe he was mistaken or something.

either way we all acknowledge that right now innovia is our prime ally.

robboo
Jan 17, 2007, 12:41 PM
OK...fine with me.

We just need to watch them closely...I hate giving them techs for techs later on

Robi D
Jan 18, 2007, 02:25 AM
Yeah, diplomacy was never cane's strong suit. In the civ3 mtdg he managed to ruffle MIA on a number of occasions. I tried to explain diplomacy sledgehammer style isn't really diplomacy. I think he forget that unlike civ3 where you needed an embassy, in civ4 we can see if 2 civs we know have met each other. Anyway we will see what they say to the deal

robboo
Feb 22, 2007, 07:04 AM
Ok I had more time than I thought at work. i am playing a PBEM with Sweetaschon of Piffle. We were talking about Epsilons lead. So I decided to just ask a flat out question. And he responded.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RB: Gold for tech I dont like(hence why i hate epsilons tech "buying/selling" offers.) This is referring to an in PBEM trade

Sw: I know what you mean. They are a slimy bunch. OK, we'll keep those beakers in the bank.

RB: So off the record...
Have you guys figured out a good way to get rid of the threat of Epsilon.

SW: Right... off the record... We haven't.I think maybe dogpile is the way to go, because their stats are just too good. I noticed their capital grew to something like 11 or 12 recently... and we are still mired around 7. They would be absolutely cranking out the beakers, so no chance there. The trouble is that their diplo is great,and anytime anyone even mentions having a crack at them, say if we notice their prod levels are down, they will always slime in with a deal thats too good to be true and then snare you with ongoing propositions... I'm sure you know from the big pitboss how DaveMcW acts.

You are NOT allowed to post any of this, and this is my opinion, but we are keeping a fairly large deterent army together, and frankly the team is sitting on the fence about what to do with Epsilon, however, if war broke out in a meaningful way, most of Piffle could probably be persuaded to strike while the iron is hot, so to speak. Our main trouble is the lack of knowedge.. umm.. exploration of the land. I push and push for more scouting, but it doesn't seem to happen. It is hrd to plan anything if you don't know where they are!

RB: So do you think you have a big enough army to effectively attack them. I think we all agree they must die. We are building up our army to higher levels now that our Wonder is done. With Robi D and kuningas playing turns it is hard not to have every thing explored. IS whomp and tubby running the team because they both have shown a lack of exploring in their games that i have played with and against them.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will keep you updated if I get more info. I trust him to be telling the truth. Also can I have the secret title of Spy. :) I may be or look unethical in posting this off the record communication BUT team first.

BCLG100
Feb 22, 2007, 07:08 AM
Hmm im not so sure i like the whole off the record thing and then posting- its just my personal opinion but if i said off the record and someone posted it i would be most displeased.

robboo
Feb 22, 2007, 07:12 AM
My call...and I am loyal to a fault to my team. I gave no info nor would I about our team...

Rule number 1...never send an email if you have info in it you dont want any one to find out about.

BCLG100
Feb 22, 2007, 11:28 AM
No i understand that- just my personal view, hope you understand :)

got this from whomp

Aloha Aloha:

We were sitting atop our Great Lighthouse on lookout [watching sunbathers through our telescope] when we noticed a galley sailing through our harbor [the girls stopped posing for me and were looking out at your boat]. We're always happy to have visitors [the girls got excited and jumped around for awhile], but we are curious how long you are planning to stay [we don't need the competition from tanned, super-stud sailor types to our paunchy, balding types].

Drop us a line and let us know so we can be proper hosts[There is one guy on that boat that looks like Fabio, the girls seem especiall smitten by him. If you are sticking around we may have to start the rumor that he is gay].

Thanks.

Piffles

PS we should talk about the future, techs etc sometime.

What's he getting at, has the galley been sitting waiting anywhere? think its just a way of us giving them an offer for techs :)

robboo
Feb 22, 2007, 05:24 PM
new update....

basically No offensive army yet. They are "linked by a land bridge" with them and this hinders an attack due to the amount of travel. Tubby and whomp are running things. Conroe is the TP now...he is better with exploring than whomp. Sweet is a bit exasperated.


So basically they sound divided and in turmoil and they dont expect us to attack.

Robi D
Feb 22, 2007, 08:04 PM
No i understand that- just my personal view, hope you understand :)
Off the record never ment much to MIA:lol: Then again i knew this so everytime i wanted to bs big time i would go off the record;)



What's he getting at, has the galley been sitting waiting anywhere? think its just a way of us giving them an offer for techs :)

Having a look at the save i believe it because the ship may have ended the turn in one of piffles cities, kuningas can confirm this. I think the message was more of an excuse to start some talks.

BCLG100
Feb 23, 2007, 10:09 AM
Actually it's not so much the galley as much as the Scout we were curious about.

hmmm well still who knows :)

robboo
Feb 23, 2007, 10:27 AM
tell them that the scout was there before they settled that city. AND since he cant just swim back home he will continue to look around so that he earns his pay check. tell him kuningas refuses to allow a unit just to sit but if they are willing to give us their map we would gladly gift them the scout..

Robi D
Feb 23, 2007, 06:06 PM
Here is the latest offer from Piffle


Hey guys,

Do you think you'd be interested in trading Drama and Music in exchange for Compass and Theology?

Whomper

Interesting offer what do we think?

robboo
Feb 23, 2007, 09:05 PM
how would that leave us...beakerwise.

Also throw in the no trading to Epsilon bit.

Kuningas
Feb 24, 2007, 05:42 AM
Epsilon has all four techs.

btw. I guess tech offer should be Drama and Music for Compass and Paper? not Compass and Theology as is written in Robi's quote. Anyway we don't need Theology since we have it already.

Kuningas
Feb 24, 2007, 05:47 AM
In according with war academy beaker costs are:

Drama 300
Music 600
Paper 600
Theology 500
Compass 400

robboo
Feb 24, 2007, 06:05 AM
ok lets do it... then if they allow it, trade to the others.

BCLG100
Feb 24, 2007, 06:01 PM
Greetings pifflentares

sorry for the delay in communications, being a very busy student and what not. We can't agree to your deal simply because we already have theology, however in exchange for theology you could offer paper?

regards


so that ok then?

Robi D
Feb 24, 2007, 08:19 PM
Yes:)

Also given robboo talks with sweet i thinking a map trade wont be to our benefit if we believe him

robboo
Feb 25, 2007, 07:09 AM
i agree..

Also if we are going hit them... they have less idea about our lay out than we do of theres thanks to the scout. I think we sit on the map.

Robi D
Feb 27, 2007, 11:53 PM
This was in our gmail box

Aloha BCLG

Regretably we must decline your proposed trade of Theology in exchange
for Paper. That amounts to a 15% discount and as we are currently in
last place, it is more than we can afford.

We must also regretably decline your offer of Dyes for 15 gpt. While
we are sure they are lovely, our citizens are currently quite content.
Our citizens are a poor people. Recently our government opened up a
state-subsidized Winery. Since then the people have seen fit to honor
the name of Pifflenatress. They may be drunk, but they are happy
drunks!

Now if we may discuss another issue of a more delicate nature? One of
our Spearmen has reported seeing an Aloha Scout. We were wondering if
you could explain your intentions vis-a-vis the mapping of our
territory? Frankly our scholars can think of no peaceful reason
why another civilization would want to map our territory.

We have no objections to your Galley sailing our coast. As we can
think of many reasons why a peaceful civilization would explore the
coastline. It opens up trade routes after all. However, why would a
peaceful civilization need detailed maps of another's territory and
defenses?

As I say, our scholars are mystified. Hopefully you can clarify this for them?

Yours in Peace!
Pifflenatress

Now i don't see what the issue is with our scout. Frankly their scholars arn't particularly bright IMHO.

I don't see why we should pander to them on this issue. First our scout was there before they even built the city. Second, it a scout not half our army and finally we do have an open borders agreement and when the agreement was made there was no mention of restrictions.

Bascially if they don't like it they can always end the OB, but then they have more to lose at the great lighthouse needs OB's to be effective so they can get stuffed.

However we have to act nice and give them a good reason to zip it. I'll be heading off tomorrow so i wont be around to discuss a response so here is my suggestion

Dear Piffle,

We are quite mystified ourselves by your apparent alarm to one of our scouting parties. We have many scouting parties that are heading in many different directions accross the globe as we speak and they all wondering around in the pursuit of peaceful exploration to expand our knowledge of the world around us.

Furthermore we have had Open Borders for many turns now. When put the agreement into place there was no mention of any restrictions of movement through our respective territories, land or sea. If you so wished you are free to go through our territory with a scouting unit.

Finally, if we are to cooperate in an attack on Epsilon then we will need knowledge of possible land and sea routes that our forces could use in the attack. We understand that circumstances can change during the course of time are we more than happy to discuss amendments to our current agreements that are in place, but we must stress that at this current time we have acted in accordance with the agreements in place

Yours in friendship
Aloha

Feel free to use/discard as you see fit.

By playing the epsilon card it will give us an insight into whether they are really eager to attack them or not. Also if they want to go and place major restrictions on the OB then we can say no thanks and cancel it. They have more to lose than we do since the GL is useless without trade routes.

See you all when i get back:)

Robi D
Feb 28, 2007, 01:52 AM
Ok having loaded the save all i can say is WTF!?!

Given Piffle's letter i assumed our scout was in their borders, but not only is he not in them he is nowhere near them!:mad: I mean are they trying to piss us off:crazyeye:

Having seen the position of our scout i would change my suggested response to this:

Dear Piffle,

We are quite mystified ourselves by your apparent alarm to one of our scouting parties. We have many scouting parties that are heading in many different directions accross the globe as we speak and they all wondering around in the pursuit of peaceful exploration to expand our knowledge of the world around us.

What we do not understand why would would have an issue with our scout. Firstly he is in unclaimed territory a fair distance outside you borders and secondly we have had Open Borders for many turns now. When put the agreement into place there was no mention of any restrictions of movement through our respective territories, land or sea.

Finally, if we are to cooperate in an attack on Epsilon then we will need knowledge of possible land and sea routes that our forces could use in the attack as we will not send our men and women into battle blindly

Yours in friendship
Aloha

robboo
Feb 28, 2007, 05:22 AM
They are actt like a team with something to hide. Supposedly we are supposed to be their great help against Epsilon.

I say we close borders if they disagree with the traveling through their territory.

BCLG100
Feb 28, 2007, 03:14 PM
No we leave em open-maybe close if they come near- i'll send that letter if its cool robi?

BCLG100
Feb 28, 2007, 06:27 PM
casey j says:
hey i was looking at mtdg today
casey j says:
you guys dont want to trade, what was it, theology?
Simon says:
you offered us theology in your e-mail
Simon says:
but we already have theology
Simon says:
so thats why we proposed a different one
casey j says:
ah ok i see it
casey j says:
theology for paper??
casey j says:
and 15 gpt?
Simon says:
we thought you'd made a typo
casey j says:
thats crazy talk
Simon says:
and one of you genius's would have checked the save to see that we already had theology
casey j says:
hey we are kind of slow
casey j says:
i dont even check in every day
Simon says:
well happy resources are scarce on this map
casey j says:
what are we going to do about the others?
Simon says:
btw we replied to your message
casey j says:
which message?
Simon says:
erm about what our scout was doing
casey j says:
ok here we are, innovia is the one who lacks theology
Simon says:
yeah
casey j says:
oh well, we are interested in long term peace, are you guys interested in that?
Simon says:
i can certainly post about it
Simon says:
we hadnt really discussed prolonged peace deals tbh
casey j says:
how do you see the game playing out, someone is going to go to war before long surely, we can make sure we arent on the short end of the stick
casey j says:
epsilon is pretty slick
Simon says:
how do you mean?
casey j says:
they are working everyone pretty well
casey j says:
on the trade and diplo front
Simon says:
yeah we've noticed that- we get an e-mail pretty much everytime we research something
casey j says:
do you guys have a long term peace with innovia or just tech trading with them?
Simon says:
just tech trading iirc
casey j says:
well we could team up vs. epsilon or innovia if you want
casey j says:
i say, portugal vs. spain, maybe with rome included when we get peace
casey j says:
india and maya vs. inca, or india and inca vs. maya
Simon says:

Simon says:
portugal and spain???
casey j says:
ha woops
casey j says:
talking about sgotm
Simon says:
ah right had no clue what was going on
casey j says:
could we work out a tech deal and long term peace vs. one or the other of those two?
Simon says:
i think we'd definatly prefer to not go to war with innovia
casey j says:
are they strong or just pretty straight shooters
Simon says:
how do you mean?
casey j says:
why you would rather not go to war with them
Simon says:
ah right, we just like dealing with them i think
Simon says:
we've had good diplomatic communications throughout
casey j says:
what do you think about epsilon?
Simon says:
hmmm, we're pretty concerned but we still havnt found them yet so theres little we can do
Simon says:
hows about you?
casey j says:
they are right up above us, you will meet them soon
casey j says:
well we have traded w/ them, but they are not the best of friends
casey j says:
we told them we were going to trade w/ innovia and they went ahead and traded
Simon says:
we've tried keeping trade down to a minimum with them
casey j says:
so we are not on best of terms, but not worst either, we can swing either way
Simon says:
there were bands going around of trying to organise a world wide trade embargo on them
casey j says:
hmm that prolly wont work though
Simon says:
how so?
casey j says:
they seem to be in tight with loco
Simon says:
hmmm im not sure
Simon says:
how did you think that?
casey j says:
they mentioned loco in their emails to us, for tech trades
casey j says:
several times
Simon says:
ah
Simon says:
we havnt heard anything along them lines
Simon says:
one thing we've noticed about loco is that they're very unwilling to keep up regular diplomatic communication
Simon says:
but this was before epsilon even met them
casey j says:
i dont know, epsilon seems persistent
casey j says:
so maybe they had a breakthrough there
Simon says:
well if you propose tech trades then they do
Simon says:
but i dont have a single one of them on msn
casey j says:
of epsilon or loco?
Simon says:
loco
Simon says:
brb
casey j says:
aight, im getting off here, have to catch american idol with the missus
Simon says:
enjoy that, your testes staying there?
casey j says:
ha
Simon says:
i'll definatly propose the long term peace to the gang though

convo i had with cane before- key is that they want a NAP, im not quite sure how to go about avoiding this :D

robboo
Feb 28, 2007, 08:01 PM
Simple..we are not interested in long term deals until we know where everyone is at. Besides according to this its just Tubby talking.

How long before we can attack them??? That gives us all teh time we need to agree to. Say we need 20 turns. Then we agree to 20 turns off NAP then we tellthem nah we dont want to get tied down...and then we kill them.

OR we just say we dont want any long term deals that or not enforceable in the game. The only way to enforce deals is with "code" generated deals..therefore. NO deal. ( this is my favorite...since you can defend it by saying we dont want to be backstabbed...)

In additon...Tubby coudl have sadi "we coudl go either way with Epsilon...so be our friend or else. he basically threathened you in a passive aggresive manner. Which is very Tubby like in diplo..

BCLG100
Feb 28, 2007, 08:14 PM
yeah but as i said, that was cane= killercane.

robboo
Feb 28, 2007, 09:08 PM
opps..wrong casey. same result. :)

robboo
Mar 05, 2007, 09:40 PM
UPDATE from Sweet...

They seem to be getting a bit annoyed with us. The scout questions was mainly due to what they preceive as a lack of willinginess on our part to trade and a high value of 15gpt for the resource. We are making them nervous

I said that we offered high in hopes of negotiation and tech-wise we are not able to trade somethings due to previous deals.

I suggest that BC talk to them and calm them down a bit. We need to get them to relax so they are less than prepared for our attack. I suggest doing it by email so that they not bring up the NAP. Also do it without suggestign you knwo they are nervous. Mayeb something that says we are just sending this message to let you know we are still here if you have any offers. We hope you reconsider our resource offer perhaps if the price is too steep you could give us a counter offer.

BCLG100
Mar 06, 2007, 05:24 AM
Ive been talking to cane regular-we have a pbem going. Nothing special has come up.

Kuningas
Mar 06, 2007, 07:41 AM
We could propose tech swap Music for Paper. Beaker cost is equal (858).

BCLG100
Mar 06, 2007, 09:35 AM
I'll bring it up next time im talking to cane

Robi D
Mar 07, 2007, 02:56 AM
I would also make a point that happiness resources arn't easy to come by in this game so 15gpt isn't unresonable. If they can trade one back to us then thats fine.

BCLG100
Mar 07, 2007, 05:46 AM
I have told them that already- they still felt it was very steep.

robboo
Mar 07, 2007, 02:36 PM
did they offer a counter offer??

Can we just hurry up and kill them... I am ready for some action.

Robi D
Apr 25, 2007, 06:40 AM
Ok i'm running a little low on inspiration, this is what i've got so far.


Greetings Piffle,

It been a while since our last contact, so i thought i might start my new job by saying hi. Unfortunately last time we could quite work out a deal but maybe we can work something out this time around.

If you would like we can organise a time for a chat and discuss the possibilities.

All the best
Robi D, Aloha

Anyone got any ideas?

BCLG100
Apr 25, 2007, 08:36 AM
thats about all i can think of, maybe congratulate them on reaching liberalism first?

Robi D
Apr 26, 2007, 12:32 AM
thats about all i can think of, maybe congratulate them on reaching liberalism first?

I can add that to pad out the letter a little:)

Robi D
Apr 26, 2007, 02:12 AM
Greetings Piffle,

It been a while since our last contact, so i thought i might start my new job by saying hi. First of all i would like to offer congratulations on the discovery of Liberalism. Does this mean you have all turned into a bunch of unwashed liberal hippies now ;)

Unfortunately last time we could quite work out a deal but maybe we can work something out this time around. If you would like we can organise a time for a chat and discuss the possibilities.

All the best
Robi D, Aloha

How is that? Lame joke i know, but i can't think of anything funnier that does not involve us crushing Piffle with our mighty Cossaks

BCLG100
Apr 26, 2007, 06:53 AM
Got this from piffle before, maybe include this

Is there any interest in banking in the MTDG? Perhaps for gold?

KC

tbh i cant see a great desire for it i think they're just using it to start convo/make us look bad for not wanting it.

Kuningas
Apr 26, 2007, 07:38 AM
Banking is required for Replaceable Parts. Try to get it but do not give them any gold.

BCLG100
Apr 26, 2007, 09:07 AM
Yeah but innovia already have it, i'd much prefer we give innovia or even loco things for it than piffle.

Robi D
May 11, 2007, 07:02 PM
Had my chat with killercane

casey j says:
Robi whats up
Rob says:
hi casey, not to much having a quite night, how bout you?
casey j says:
not much having lunch, i think im eating the worst hamburger i have ever tasted
Rob says:
lol
casey j says:
did you get my message?
Rob says:
yes i did
Rob says:
i was just looking at the save before the timing is prefect i'm up to date
casey j says:
cool do you want to discuss? or are you going to bed? (its late for you isnt it?)
Rob says:
i'll be up for a while yet so its ok
Rob says:
i had an afternoon nap so i'm fully awake
casey j says:
hah excellent
Rob says:
just like a granpa
Rob says:
well going on your message you guys were interested in a techs for gold deal
casey j says:
yeah, and i think we connected wines this turn so wines for dyes can work too
Rob says:
ok cool that hadn't showed up in the save yet
Rob says:
as for the techs we have divine right that we can offer, are you guys interested in that
casey j says:
probably not
casey j says:
are you getting anything we dont have soon?
casey j says:
back in a sec
Rob says:
no not really, we are nearly done with MT at the moment
Rob says:
ok no probs
casey j says:
back
casey j says:
what about gunpowder for cossacks?
casey j says:
we can offer that i think
Rob says:
we have gunpowder sorted out, we outsourced the research
Rob says:
but after MT we should have something for you within 10 turns
casey j says:
what else do we have to offer, PP, Lib?
casey j says:
ah astro too
Rob says:
we are interested in PP
Rob says:
sorry i'm just looking at the tech chart
Rob says:
the in game one is a lot easier to follow
Rob says:
huh what do you know i just found an error in the printed chart
casey j says:
?
casey j says:
maybe its from an old unpatched version
Rob says:
they have corporation listed twice and constitution isn't in it
casey j says:
the one online
casey j says:
hmm that interesting
Rob says:
no the printed one that came in the box
casey j says:
ah
Rob says:
i was trying to find the tech prices
casey j says:
i look at the one on cfc when i need to look at something, god knows i dont have all these techs memorized
Rob says:
just a sec i'll check in the game, brb
casey j says:
ok cool
casey j says:
what do you want to offer for PP?
Rob says:
ok back
Rob says:
after MT we are doing constitution
Rob says:
does that interest you guys or are you doing it already
casey j says:
i dont know i think we are doing it already
casey j says:
engineering would be nice
casey j says:
it goes const-> rifling right?
casey j says:
maybe PP for a lump sum maybe?
Rob says:
engineering? i think everyone has that
Rob says:
ok well how much gold would you want for PP outright
casey j says:
hmm what is tech cost?
Rob says:
in the game its 2288
Rob says:
base cost is 1200
casey j says:
something like 75% of tech cost or something?
casey j says:
1500?
casey j says:
i dont really know
Rob says:
thats ok, at least i have a ballpark figure to give the team
casey j says:
i guess 1500 is about 2/3 cost, and its a nice even number
casey j says:
and what about wines for dyes?
Rob says:
we hadn't discussed that since we didn't know about the wines so i'll need to double check with the team on that one
Rob says:
but personally i think that should be ok
casey j says:
alright, so tentatively 1500 gold for PP and wines for dyes (all to be discussed). when would you want delivery of PP? how soon can you have the gold?
Rob says:
don't know exactly but if everyone is happy with the deal then it would be around 7 or 8 turns from now
casey j says:
alright good deal then. was there anything else or do we need to just check on what everyone says?
Rob says:
i think that is everything we can trade at the moment
Rob says:
i should get back to you before the next turn

When then chatted about some other stuff for a bit.


So there you go. I know we have no interest in paying piffle anything but i was just trying to weed out as much info as possible out of them.

It seems they are or Epsilon are doing Constitution, no doubt the other half of their research is focused on getting rifleing.

So what do we think of wines for dyes? I know we said no trading of happiness in the deal with Innovia but then i don't recall them saying anything about planning to attack Loco.

Anyway i wouldn't mind lulling them into a false sense of security just before we strike

Robi D
May 14, 2007, 02:30 AM
Hello?

Any thoughts, do we trade wines for dyes or not?

GeorgeOP
May 14, 2007, 03:02 AM
Can we try stalling them? Can we trade it to anyone else?

Piffle has a larger empire, iirc, so any resource trades are going to help them build units more than it will help us. Unless we're within 10 turns of attacking, I don't think we should do this. If another team has the ability to take our resource, we should make the two teams increase their offers. It will give the appearance of wanting to trade with Piffle without actually giving them anything.

BCLG100
May 14, 2007, 11:55 AM
we dont really need wines at all from memory, the only big city that might need it is the capital which already has the globe.

Robi D
May 15, 2007, 01:38 AM
I was suggesting more as a way to make Piffle think we are not going to attack them rather than any particular need for them

BCLG100
May 15, 2007, 05:51 AM
Yeah, but then the giving them happy will only benefit them in games turns, maybe we should just try and keep up the chatter?

Robi D
May 17, 2007, 11:51 PM
Ok, i will employ some time wasting tactics in telling them no deal:)

robboo
May 18, 2007, 05:29 AM
use the "factions" of our team as another delay tactic. I posted to that effect on the Pineapple thread.

killercane
Sep 12, 2008, 11:28 AM
Ok thats all a bit odd. Here are my thoughts in no specific order

1. First off killercane breaks the most basic rule of diplomacy in promising something thats not his to promise. Every should know if you need team approval for a deal to say that is the case. In effect its dropped us in the s*** because we went to make trades based on his remarks with Innovia.

2. Given their desire to get rid of epsilon, why is the team against a trade that helps them. We did not offer the trade to them, they (cane and whomp) offered it to us in our talks (me with whomp and BC with cane)

3. I could be misreading it but i didn't like their tone, like it is our fault they are lagging tech wise. They could have traded with epsilon at any stage but didn't want to and epsilon has outplayed them and gotten ahead in techs. Now they seem to be resentful of us because we traded with our neighbours, so they now think its our responsibility to bring them up to speed at our cost, and not just over a couple of tech deals but in this one.

4. Without knowing the map, given piffle are the first ones to have met epsilon means they are the closest to them and therefore stand the most to gain out of their demise, so if we are going to give them techs and military help what is in it for us, so far they haven't offered anything that we could get from Innovia.

5. I surprise that as a team they were unaware that you can build maces with copper:eek: I mean how hard is it to check?

6. We are being very generous with the above deal, it would help them catch up at least half the tech they are behind, yet they are still unsure and somewhat unhappy.

Given all that i'm not really sure the deal is in our best interests, because to take a leap of faith on Piffle is a bit difficult for me given their attitude, i can't help but feel that we will somehow get burnt in the end.
Ya know this is funny. You guys kept getting mad at our cooperation with epsilon (which contributed to their win for sure), but we had very little cooperation from you guys but especially not Innovia. Lets look at Robi's points:

1. If you reread post #48 above (me talking to Simon) I said I would talk to the team TWICE about the proposed deal. I still dont know how you guys went ahead and traded whatever when we never agreed? Why gripe at Piffle?
2. Dont know anything about; I thought it was a good trade but got nixed for god knows what.
3. True! But we did trade with Epsilon, they just had more contacts and traded more...
4. We offered land split of Epsilon in an attack.
5. Im dumb.
6. Again that was a team thing, we proposed the deal but there was no follow up and you guys got angry for no reason, see #1 above.

If you read our forum we wanted to get a coalition against Epsilon the whole darn game, but you and Innovia would never get on board. Ya cant blame us for dealing with Epsilon as they were the only ones who would trade with us!

Edit: 3 times I said I had to see what the team wanted!
casey j says:
i posted that in the forums, we will see what the team says
Simon says:
that'd leave us about 100 beakers in your debt i think
casey j says:
hmm let me see what the team thinks
casey j says:
let me get some feedback and i will track you down and we can get this done