We've put it off long enough. :) I think we're in agreement that the current civics, well, suck and have been neglected long enough. Here's a thread to lob all of our brilliance into one area so we can fix the problem.

Things to consider:

1 - How many columns? 5, 6, 7, back to 4? Doesn't matter so long as there's a need for each column.
2 - Do we want to put in a Racial column. I know Belizan forced civs to have a "Starter" civic in SotM that couldn't change so it's possible to have the Wood Elves always have the Elven civic in this column.
3 - How about a colum based on Alignment as well then? Good, Evil, Neutral, Chaotic of all, ect? This way we aren't ripping off FfH's alignment, but still have it in game.
4 - Do we like any of the current columns and civics? Legal can go IMO. We need some brainstorming.

I'll grab one more post and then we can hopefully let some ideas flow.

reserved for brilliance, when it comes. It's on it's way!

Column headers (most stolen from P_L's post below). Some changes.

Race - Elven, Dwarven, Human, Undead, Chaotic, Cold Blooded (lizardmen), Green Skins (orcs and gobbos), Ogre. These could be the favorite civic allowing us another -2 relations modifier or less. Also, different races can get more/less free units.

Alignment - this decides where the civs morals lie. Good, Neutral, and Evil. Civs like Highelves only have access to Good and Neutral, Dark Elves only have access to Evil and neutral, and woodelves only have Neutral. Dwarfs have good and neutral, and chao dwarfs have evil and neutral only. (so each race can only have good OR evil, but not both. but all have neutral)

Warfare - Allows a distinction of what your favorite UnitCombat type thus giving you either units with no upkeep, lower upgrades, or cheaper units of that class.

Economy - self explanatory

Society - Potentially how an expire expands? Some might want to stay small and others may want to grow forever without penalties. We'd need balance and better ideas here.

Government - The form of government that civ can choose. such as Monarchy (being led but a king/queen) which could increase happyness with military units in cities, Council Elders (being led by a council of old farts) which could increase science output of cities, Feudal states (where each city is lead by its own 'government') which would decreas support costs of cities.

Knowledge - The educational and magical civics. Eg, Military Apprenticeship, where all new military units start with 2 EXP. Magical Apprenticeship where all new magical units start with one free spell(book?) or EXP. Military Expertise which would give all military units 4 EXP but make magical units more expensive. Magical Expertise which would give all magcial units 4 EXP but make military units more expensive. etc etc.

From Lord_Olleus' post. We need some new names and some XML values.

Government

Elders Council (default)
Monarchy
Representation
Electorate Empire (name?)
Tyranny
God King (name?)

Society

Tribal (default)
Feudalism
Aristocratic
Military
Inteligensia
Chaotic (name? - meant to be for orc and goblin kind of society)

Warfare

Warlords (default)
Regimental
Chivalric
Horde
Militia
Pacifist

Magic/Workship

Shaman (name? - default)
Atheist
High Magic
Dark Magic
Free Magic
Cult Worship

Knowledge

Ancient Wisdoms (default)
Apprenticeship
Scholarly
Religious
Protected by Leaders (name?)
Free speech (name?

:lol: about time;) the civics are much in need of a change.
i think a nice number of columns, say 7.
Race and Alignment (i like this), Religeon, War, Economy, Society, Government, Education and Magic.

i also think a minimum of 5 choices per civic. (only if they do something different though;)

So:
Race and Alignment (stating what race they are, giving benefits and negatives accordingly, also stating alignment (Good, Evil, Neutral, Chaotic) with more associated benefits / negatives.)
Religeon (Diferent methods of worship, ie Monotheism (think Sigmar) polytheism (think the elves) sarificial worship, self punishment etc etc.)
War( saying what form of warfare the race like to use. ie skermisher making skermishing units chaeeper and regimental units more expensive. Defender, Imerialistic, blah blah blah.)
Economy How the race uses money, ie merchantile.
Society the social order of things, but this could probably go under government.
Government Monarchy, God King, republic etc.
Education and Magic. aprenticeship, secrecy ( ie, no knowledge for the plebs) Free knowledge, etc etc.

just my tired drivel, but i hope some of that can be salvaged;)

I would break Race and Alignment into two columns, but other than that we're in agreement. You can be a Good or an Evil Elf, right?

What races do we have; Elf, Dwarf, Undead, Orc, Human, Goblin, ????
Alignments; Good, Evil, Neutral, ????

The War one really works, forcing civs to focus on a combat type. :thumbsup:

Religion is one that might be able to be cut solely because if you have a State Religion and it's benefits do you need a civic for it as well? If we had 8 columns I'd suggest this one get the boot.

Yepp, cut the Religion thing.

The "Warfare" column I really like.

I don´t see what the races column could be good for, you know which race you´re playing and the advantages/disadvantages are given via traits (since we don´t have traits for leaders but for races. I´d also like to keep the number of columns little, about 5 to maybe if needed 7, better 6.

My votes go for:

Alignment - But I´m not totally convinced of this, works for human races, but imagine neutral or good Darkelves - but this could be a column where you have no real choices to make If you play certain races

Warfare - A must have for Warhammer, good direction PL

Economy - I´d love to have the Teef´ thing for Greenskinz - get more money from pillaging because of the people being killed and looted, would support the victory condition

Society

Government

Education and Magic mix - I think it would be nice to have those two mixed in one column. Magic and Education belong together in fantasy IMO.

The Race column is a way to simulate hostilities as discussed in the leader trait thread. Right now we have a love fest and by not matching a favorite "civic" the race can add more modifiers to conflict.

So Darkelves would love Highelves because they are both Elves?

Then we would need every CIV to be a single race (except maybe the human ones, but I think there are Great wars betweens those also - Araby and Tilea for example)

They would be more tolerant, but if each has a different alignment as well that would help. Think of it like this; being Elf to Elf means Zero modifier so it's no big deal, but Elf to Human could be -1. Throw in Good vs Evil and you have another -2. Something to stir the pot.

Aren't all civs a single race really? Undead is undead, but most everything else seems to be a race of some variety. Maybe orcs and goblins could be grouped into a Monster race. Bear in mind I'm a WH noob, so be nice in replying. :p

Sorry If my reply seemed harsh ;)

The point is that Darkelves and Highelves are archenemies. For example Highelves are too proud and sophisticated to hate anything, but in the case of Darkelves, there are certain units that even really hate them.

So yes, I think we would need each civ to be a race for this column. And there should oly be some positive and some negative modifiers - the list of effects shouldn´t flood the monitor IMO. Alignments are a very good idea, but you should only be able to choose between good and neutral OR have the option to choose between evil and neutral. To avoid that everybody in a game takes neutral, certain Leaders should be given good and evil as favored civics.

Not harsh, just direct. ;)

In the case of mortal enemies are we planning on making it so certain civs are always fighting? That would eliminate this issue since there would be no diplomacy.

I don´t know if this is a good idea, it may be too hard for the AI to be constantly at war and may cripple its developement in other fields than just armybuilding.

Only 6430 posts until I get another decent idea by the looks. ;)

:lol: Now you´re the one who´s a little bit too harsh with yourself.

But I think there´ll be at least 4 or 5 good ideas in your next 5000 thousand posts (So it will approximately only take 1-2 weeks for 4-5 good ideas) :D

jk - you always got some good stuff up your sleeves, so keep all those "stupid" ideas coming. It´s like brainstorming, First collect and then sort out - it´s the best way to get good results, so look at it that way :goodjob:

Brainstorming is good, especially since Civics have been ignored. It'd be nice to do something good without involving a lot of work other than XML.

Ok, I think the Race thing is very good. first of all, because i dont like both leaders of a civ having the same traits, second of all, it will add more diversity to the civs. so my new ideas are:

Race: One civic option for each civ that cannot be changed. Each 'race' has one advantage and one disadvantage. For example, there can be: Elven, Dwarven, Human, Undead, Chaotic, Cold Blooded (lizardmen), Green Skins (orcs and gobbos), Ogre.
For example, the 'Cold Blooded' for the lizardmen only could make each unit have half strength in tunda and ice, and extra 25% defence in Jungle, with a bonus to movement.

Alignment: this decides where the civs morals lie. Good, Neutral, and Evil. Civs like Highelves only have access to Good and Neutral, Dark Elves only have access to Evil and neutral, and woodelves only have Neutral. Dwarfs have good and neutral, and chao dwarfs have evil and neutral only. (so each race can only have good OR evil, but not both. but all have neutral)

Warfare: This gives advantages to certain types of warfare. for example, an option calles skirmishers, would make all of the units lables 'skirmisher' cheeper, and have no upkeep, but would double the price and upkeep of other units. it would also give skirmisher units 2 extra EXP whe nthey are built. in contrast, an option called 'regimental' would make units labled 'rebels' cheeper and have less upkeep, but increase the cost and upkeep of skirmishers, regiments would also start with 2 EXP.

Economy: self explanatory

Society: dont know

Government: The form of government that civ can choose. such as Monarchy (being led but a king/queen) which could increase happyness with military units in cities, Council Elders (being led by a council of old farts;)) which could increase science output of cities, Feudal states (where each city is lead by its own 'government') which would decreas support costs of cities.

Knowledge: The educational and magical civics. Eg, Military Aprenticeship, where all new military units start with 2 EXP. Magical Aprenticeship wher all new magical units start with one free spell(book?) or EXP. Military Expertease (spelling?) which would give all military units 4 EXP but make magical units more expencive. Magical Expertease (spelling?) which would give all magcial units 4 EXP but make military units more expencive. etc etc.

I'm not sure if Civics can give bonuses to units like defense and terrain bonuses P_L. I'd love to do race this way instead of as a Trait, but maybe we should be thinking of this race column in terms of traits as well?

The race Civic will aid in conflict and diplomacy, but a Racial Trait would aid in unit stats.

We need some others to chime in. ;)

Just reread my last post and confused myself. :lol:

My proposal then : A Race Civic that doesn't do much except be the "favorite" civic of civilizations to aid in more conflict and a Race Trait that each leader receives that will help that race's units.

Edited the 2nd post with P_L's ideas and made some additions/subtractions and a few spelling corrections. ;)

Do we really need a race civic?

If it's something that you can't change why make it a civic. You could just give the diplomatic bonus from thet start using the SDK without creating a useless column.

I think all the others are great though :D. Maybe military could be changed to reflect the style of armies. For example you hqve a 'hord' civic which gives -2 exp but +25% unit production (for orcs), and another one called 'Nobility' which gives +2 exp but -10% unit production. This would definatively be easier to do than give bonuses to specific unit combat types.

Yes, that´s also what I thought the Military column should be like.

We could have things like:

Horde
Militia
Military Caste
Chivalry

surely we can get better names for those, but I think everyone is getting the idea, It´s how the standing army of the civ is incorporated into society.

I agree with Olleus about the Race column if we can have it in SDK and spare a useless column that's better imo.
Alignment drops with religion anyway in this case imo(means should be coded as well in the SDK or totally be left to Religion). But the rest is cool. I will have to dip little more into it to give more detailed comment(too busy now with other coding) but good ideas so far keep on brainstorming:)

Isnt it possible to make civics only benifit one type of unit?

here are some lists of names for options. (we can think of what they can do later;))

Government:
monarchy
representation
council of elders
feudal states
electoral state
god king
tyranny
dictatorship

Warfare:
Skirmisher
Regimental
force of numbers
elietism (spelling?)
blitz tactics
militia
standing army
Horde

Knowledge:
Apprenticeship
Scolarship
Arcane Study
Military Study
Idiotism
Ancient Wisdoms
Bardic Knowledge

Society:
Military Caste
Inteligensia
Religous
Free Rights
Aristocratic
Communistic
Social Hierarchy

Names are good P_L, but now you have to come up with how they are different using XML changes. :p

Yep I agree. Don't be so lazy PL:D

:lol:

Having so many choices sounds great in theory, but once you have to sit down and make they all feel unique it's a pain in the ass. There are only so many XML tags to edit in this area without adding more options.

I would say have 5 columns of about 6 options each. That way we don't have to redo the interface. Can't think what it should be called right now, but ti should take some civics from knowledge and society. Maybe 'philosophy' or 'way of thinking' and it should be linked to religion in some way.

Good point and should suffice.

Someone please let me know when to update the first 3 posts. :p

5 columns is fine by me if we do some combining.

so, to recap (in no particular order and mostly stolen from P_L):

Government

Elders Council (default)
Monarchy
Representation
Electorate Empire (name?)
Tyranny
God King (name?)

Society

Tribal (default)
Feudalism
Aristocratic
Military
Inteligensia
Chaotic (name? - meant to be for orc and goblin kind of society)

Warfare

Warlords (default)
Regimental
Chivalric
Horde
Militia
Pacifist

Magic/Workship

Shaman (name? - default)
Atheist
High Magic
Dark Magic
Free Magic
Cult Worship

Knowledge

Ancient Wisdoms (default)
Apprenticeship
Scholarly
Religious
Protected by Leaders (name?)
Free speech (name?)

I'll add those to the 3rd post. Now we need values to actually drop into the game:

Upkeep, tech prereq, what it actually does.

Any civic with the (name?) obviously needs a new name so keep that in mind in case brilliance happens upon any of you. ;)

Ok recombinated Olleus and PL again. I think we don't need civics for magic since we have that bound to religions and civspecific techs. Also some civics(like theocracy, magocracy) could have effects on magic imo.
But we still need economy however I'm missing vocabulary again for that Can someone do better for this column?

Government:
Despotism(default)
God King
Monarchy
City Estates
Representation
Tyranny


Warfare:
Warlords (default)
Standing Army
Chivalric
Horde
Militia
Pacifist(maybe something like silent war, assassination here)

Knowledge:
Ancient Wisdoms(default)
Monasticism(incl. Cells of Chaos cults-that's what the tech also is for besides monasteries)
Bardic Knowlegde(Like this, fits to middle age and button's there thx to Duke's error with the horse barding:D)
Apprenticeship
Scholarly
Theology

Society:
Tribalism(default)
Chaotic
Feudalism
Caste System
Magocracy
Theocracy

Don't forget:
Economy:
Gathering and Hunting
Decentralization
Basic Trade
Mercantilism
Free Market
Central Planning(is there in WH-world?, anything else?- Burocratic Regulation etc.)

Why can't we have a civic category linked to magic/religion? It seems more appropriate than economy for a fantasy mod.

Another explanation:
I don't like concepts like free speech for fantasy mods this really is a concept of 20th century(-central planning in name also yes but not in effect-just missing better name for that)

Why can't we have a civic category linked to magic/religion? It seems more appropriate than economy for a fantasy mod.
You said yourself it doesn't make sense to have a civic for something you can't change. And there are civics enough which can have effects on magic and btw I know not of a single fantasy world as close to real history as WH that doesn't have economic systems.

good points everyone. (oh and sorry for being too slack to think of everything :p)
so then to start off with what the civics should DO:

Government:
Despotism(default)
Monarchy Plus one Happy for every military unit in a city. Castles and forst give some extra defence (if possible) --- High Upkeep
Representation plus one trade route in 5 largest cities, and plus one happy per trade route. --- High Upkeep
City States city upkeep costs reduced by 80%, Workers work half speed, Military units build slightly slower, units upkeep reduces by 50%. --- medium Upkeep
God King Plus one happy in cities with state religeon. All magic units get one extra spell from their primary wind of magic. +50% upkeep in capital, religeon spreads faster. --- Medium upkeep
Tyranny No war wearyness in any cities. Workers build twice as fast. units can enslave defeated enemies. +10% gold - 20% research. per city. --- High Upkeep

Warfare:
Warlords (default)
Standing Army All units get +2 EXP. Plus lots of free units. all units become weaker when attacking (if possible ) but stronger when defending. ---Medium Upkeep
Chivalric What do you want this to do? i dont understand it. --- ???
Horde No unit upkeep costs. units built faster. - 40% research and +15% city upkeep cost. --- Medium upkeep
Militia Workers gain the ability to attack and defend (with one strength), workers and civilians can upgrade to militia units. Militia units cheaper and built faster. cottages spawn militia more often. more free units--- High Upkeep
Pacifist + 20% warwearyness, Units produced 15% slower. higher Unit upkeep cost. Plus 1 happy for every other 3 happy in every city during peace time. --- Low Upkeep

Knowledge:
Ancient Wisdoms(default)
Monasticism what is this? i dont understand it.
Bardic Knowlegde + 20% culture in all cities, Plus 20% great people in every city . --- medium upkeep
Apprenticeship all units get Plus 2 EXP, units produced 15% slower, educational buildings (library, College) build 50% faster.
Scholarly +50 % science in every city, Plus 30% Great People in the 3 largest cities --- High Upkeep
Theology Plus 1 happyness for cities with state religeon, Plus 15% science for cities with state religeon, Plus 15% culture for cities with state religeon,state religeon spreads faster. ---high upkeep

Society:
Tribalism(default)
Barbaric Military units get +2 EXP, units get extra bonuses against barbarian units, 15% less science in every city. --- low upkeep
Feudalism Farms produce +1 gold, +2 taxcollector specialists in all cities. +1 unhappyness in all cities. --- low upkeep.
Military Caste - 50% culture in all cities. -50% military building and military unit building time. +2 guard specialists in every city--- medium upkeep
Magocracy spell caster units get +4EXP and one free spell(book?). +2 mage specialist in every city. ---High upkeep
Theocracy Unlimited priest specialists in all cities. + 1 free priest specialist. state religeon spreads much faster. --- High Upkeep

Economy:
Bartering (default)
Decentralization ????
Mercantilism + 1 foregn trade per city, +1 trade route per city. Markets and docks produce extra commerce. --- High upkeep
Free Market ????
Isolationist no foriegn trade. +1 trade route in All cities , Plus 15% gold per city, Plus 1 money specialist per city(i forget the name) ---medium upkeep

I have too say that most of these are way way to powerful. City States would give you unlimited gold while pacifism would ensure that you would never never have any happiness problems.

Yes, im well aware that they are very powerful, because i wasnt saying what i though they SHOULD do, but only what they COULD do, kind of like a stimulation of ideas. so now you cant say im lazy;)
now its up to the rest of you to help choose whats good, whats bad, what needs adding etc etc, basic balancing. thats my ideas on the lot for now.

:lol:

That'll teach us! :rolleyes:

:blush: that wasnt meant to be a telling off... just to help stimulate the creative juices.;)

No offense taken P_L. It's always best to put numbers down, even when ludicrous, because then people have to adjust them instead of simply saying "They suck!"

Sorry.

Ok, can we get back to brainstorming now?;)
What king of %'s will begood then? what are other peoples ideas?

To get back to brainstorming (but not giving any effects or %-numbers):

I really want something like "teef´ Trading>" (or Economy etc.) only available for Greenskins in the "Economy Column" to make the pillaging Victory Condition we talked about before more interesting to them. (Once you see Squigs you just gotta love 'em - alltime orcsfanatic, forget about gobbos, they are just a feast to the stronger Greenz!)

Pillaging-victory would be interesting for Norse as well.(and possibly for some other civs we maybe put in later like Hung or Skaven)

I think I might have a really good idea for an early Economics civic that would become available with the tech Trade:

Barter (or is it called Bartering?!?)

Every city with one of some specific resources (like stone, wheat, pigs, rice, horses - what ancient folks can really make good use of - unlike spices or dye, for example) in the city-radius gets +1 trade route.

You have a Barter Economy and the act is bartering, so really either way would work and I really like the idea. Any bonus for having more than one in your radius?

I wouldn´t suggets that, just +1 if you got one or more in the radius.

But I fear that our python-wizards will have to do another programming for this, it seems like they are becoming our main workforce :mischief:

Indeed. You can only do so much in XML....

+1 trade routes or +% to trade route value? If it's bartering, i would think good deals, not necessarly more deals

Also how about extending a conquest civic to also give a a bonus XP for razing cities instead of capturing them. Or maybe giving a wicked decrease to war weariness.

+1 trade routes or +% to trade route value? If it's bartering, i would think good deals, not necessarly more deals

I thought of it as being the first new economic civic becoming available. That´s why I came up with the idea that if people know that they can get special things at your village they would come and offer things in exchange for those rarities you got. That´s why i thought about + trade routes or +% to trade routes.

i like that idea Duke:)

But isn't bartering a really unefficent way of running an economy? I would think of barter as the basic economy civic. Maybe something like this:

Barter - basic
Local Currency - no upkeep for distance to capital - medium upkeep
National Currency - +2 trade routes per city - high upkeep
Free market - can rush with gold, +1 gold per specialist - low upkeep
Isolationism - 1 free merchant specialist per city, +10% gold per city, no foreign trade routes - medium upkeep

Any more ideas here. I'm revamping this right now.

well, what have you got so far? i have a lot of ideas but its pointless putting them down if you already know them:p

EDIT: oh, and what do they do?

please keep in mind that i know these are not balanced :D, please change them where you think they need balancing:)

Government
Elder’s Council
Low upkeep
Monarchy
Low upkeep
Effects: Plus one :) for every military unit in a city. Castles and Forts give some extra defence.
Representation
High upkeep
Effect:+3 science per specialist;
+3 :) in 4 to 6 largest cities, depending on map size.
Can spend gold to finish production
City States
Medium upkeep
Effect: city upkeep costs reduced by 50%, Workers work half speed, Military units build half speed, units upkeep reduces by 50%
God King
Medium upkeep
Effect: +1 :) in cities with state religion. All magic units get one extra spell from their primary wind of magic. +50% upkeep in capital, State religion spreads faster.
Tyranny
Very High upkeep
Effect: No :mad: in any cities. Workers build twice as fast. Higher chance that units can enslave defeated enemies. +25% military unit production, -20% research per city.
Oligarchy
Low upkeep
+15% research per city. Can spend gold to finish production

Warfare
Warlords
low upkeep
Standing Army
Medium upkeep
Effect: All new units get +2 EXP. Plus some free units. All new units get the ‘defender’ promotion, which makes them weaker when attacking but stronger when defending
Horde
Medium upkeep
Effect: No unit upkeep costs. Units built faster. - 20% research and +15% city upkeep cost
Militia
High upkeep
Effect: Workers gain the ability to attack and defend (with strength 1), workers and civilians can upgrade to militia units cheaper. Militia units cheaper and built faster. Cottages spawn militia more often. more free units
Scattered Forces
Low upkeep
Effect: All new units gain the Guerrilla I and Forest I promotions.
Chivalry
Medium upkeep
Effect: Horse resource gives +1 :) . Mounted units get to retry failed psychology tests.
Pacifism
no upkeep
Effect: +100% great person birth rate in cities with state religion;
+1 gold support cost per military unit

Knowledge / Magic
Ancient Wisdoms
low upkeep
Bardic Knowledge
Medium upkeep
Effect: 20% culture in all cities, Plus 20% great people in every city .
Apprenticeship
Mediumupkeep
Effect: All units get Plus 2 EXP, units produced 15% slower, educational buildings (library, College) build 50% faster.
Scholarly
High upkeep
Effect: +30 % science in every city, Plus 20% Great People in the 3 largest cities. +20% war :mad:
Theology
Very High upkeep
Effect: Plus 1 :) for cities with state religion, Plus 10% science for cities with state religion, Plus 10% culture for cities with state religion, state religion spreads faster.
Free Knowledge
Low upkeep
Effect: +100% culture in all cities;
+2 science from Cottages.
:mad: penalty for civs without Free Knowledge
Propaganda
High upkeep
Effect: No War :mad: . +1 :) in all cities.


Society
Tribal
low upkeep
Barbaric
Low upkeep
Effect: Military units get +2 EXP, units get extra bonuses against barbarian units, 15% less science in every city.
Feudalism
Low upkeep
Effect: Farms produce +1 gold, +2 tax collector specialists in all cities. +1 unhappiness in all cities.
Military Caste
Medium upkeep
Effect: - 50% culture in all cities. -50% military building and military unit building time. +1 guard specialists in every city
Magocracy
High upkeep
Effect: Spell caster units get +4 EXP and one free spell (book?). +2 mage specialist in every city.
Theocracy
High upkeep
Effect: Unlimited priest specialists in all cities. + 1 free priest specialist. State religion spreads much faster.
Communal
Low upkeep
Effect: No city maintenance cost from distance to palace;
+1 food from Farms, workshops, watermills.

Economy
Bartering
low upkeep
Decentralization
Medium upkeep
Effect: Farms and cottages produce +1 gold. Palace’s effects doubled.
Mercantilism
High upkeep
Effect: + 1 foreign trade per city, +1 trade route per city. Markets and docks produce extra commerce.
Free Market
Low upkeep
Effect: +1 trade route in 5 largest cities, and plus one :) per trade route.
:mad: penalty for civs without Free Market
Isolationism
Medium upkeep
Effect: No foreign trade. +1 trade route in All cities , Plus 15% gold per city, Plus 1 tax collector specialist per city
Naturalism
Medium upkeep
Effect: +6 health in all cities +1 :) from jungle, forest
???

I will probably make it very different.:p
Still not bad to have some ideas but they all need to be doable in xml only now, just comes in handy if I run out of ideas. Basically I'm doing a mixture of FFH, vanilla and our ideas now.
I will do 6 civicoptions:

Government(mixture of former Government and Legal)

Fist Law
God King
Heridary Rule
City States
Imperial Representation
Tyranny

Military(everything related to Exp, military happiness, Generals and mil.production)

Warlords
Horde
Vassalage
Militia
Standing Army

Labor(mostly vanilla, slightly altered, guilds like FFH but engineers instead of merchants)

Tribalism
(Clans-Dwarfs and Elves)
Slavery
Serfdom
Caste System
Guilds

Economy

Decentralization
Agriculture
Barter
Mercantilism
Foreign Trade
(Sylvan Ways?)

Religion

Shamanism
Mysticism
Pantheism
Organized Religion
Theocracy

Knowledge(this should be a mixture of tech related boni and placeholder for the planned new commerce)

Ancient Wisdoms
Bardic Knowledge
Devine Lore
Arcane Lore
(something related to mechanisms-need name)



As you can see there is still room. I'm almost done withthe first 3 options. So mainly ideas for the last 3 would be nice but of course ok if you offer mor(sorry no time to list effects here now, but be assured I consider everything you propose)

The Government ones all sound good. we could also call Fist Law 'Rule of Thumb'. or something.

Military sounds good.

Labor also looks good, but what do you mean by:
"(Clans-Dwarfs and Elves)" BTW, i dont think Elves have 'clans'

Under the Economy list, what does Decentralization do? is it the default one? i think Barter should be instead. also what do you propose "(Sylvan Ways)" does? the same as Environmentalism? we could call it Sylvan law or something, dunno though, thats a hard one.

Should we not leave the religeon civics until we get the religeon completed first? what do you propose these do?

Knowledge looks good too, but what about Apprenticeship, or just one for ordinary education like that? I think "devine" should be spelt 'Divine' with an 'i'. and when you say "(something related to mechanisms-need name)" do you mean Machines? if so you could say Alchemism, or Earth Lore, or Rune Lore, or Machina, i dunno, thats also ahard one.

Id like to know what you propose each one does, because i cant gather much from just the name ;) whats the upkeep, the effects, etc.

Clans is an ancient civic therefore still should fir better than tribes for elves as well(I thought for a default for those races- both are able to climb the ladder afterwards.
I won't list all the changes here now to much work(and of course WIP so much stuff isn't decided), you will all see what I've done with the next release here in forum and then can comment it- won't release to public before this can be discussed here no worries. Knowledge will have to be revamped totally with the new commerce anyway so no need to worry much about that civicoption now.
Decentralization is default and does nothing.

i personally think tribes fits Elves better than clans, but, whatever. i dont mind;)

Shouldnt Barter be the default for economy? you do know that Decentralization can only hapen if there are big cities, and generally only occurs in modern cities.

Decentralization is the basic vanilla civic!:confused:
But I don't mind I will probably rename it to barter anyway.

Is it?!?! well, thats news to me, i thought it was trading... nevermind then:)