:band:

Edit:Removed note.
First some ground rules:

1. Please be specific in your criticisms. I would prefer something like: "the mix sounds muddy, the vocals are not together and off key;" rather than "Song Z sucks." The former I can do something with, the latter I can't.

2. Our band is a Christian music band. We don't apologize for that. Almost all of the lyrical content is scripture based, so we think we have reliable source material. My interpretation of scripture may be flawed, so I invite correction there. Yes, I'm the guy who wrote most of this stuff.

3. Don't worry about hurting my feelings. If the stuff stinks, I much prefer to hear it from friends then later from complete strangers.

4. The song collection is pretty eclectic mix of styles. It reflects what we have played in church. Sometimes we rock out. Other times we are a choral group.

OK, so here is our website: Celebrate Grace (http://celebrategrace.com)

Thanks for your support.

Yikes! I hate to go first when I can't say I absolutely loved ALL of it...hope you meant it about wanting serious feedback...and I'm just an amateur who couldn't play or sing nearly as well as you, but I tried to listen closely. In addition, I'm not a religious person, so I tuned out on the lyrics and gave my attention to the instrumental aspects.

First the good stuff... The title song, Celebrate Grace, was the most polished and I loved the vocal harmonies. Saved by Grace was good for similar reasons, though there was an occasional sense of one vocal being a millisecond behind the rest. I liked the rythmns best in We Are Receiving and I LOVED the guitar break in Go Forth. While I wasn't really listening to the lyrics, I did notice that they were clear enough to be understandable...no mumbling is a GOOD thing. :D

Other comments... Unison vocals are hard to do because they accentuate the tiniest flaws (so said my choir teacher about 45 years ago ;) ). The majority of the vocals were either solo or in unison. Without full orchestral backing, they gave a sense of being somewhat "thin"...not sure quite how to put it into words. More harmonies in 2 or 3 parts would add tremendous interest to the melodies.

Bugs, I hope this is the sort of feedback you were looking for and that I haven't hurt your feelings. I played music for many years, and I'm all too aware of my own weaknesses. Thank you for sharing these with us. It can be very hard to leave yourself wide open to people. *hugs*

Aight, here's my thoughts on this. Hopefully it will encourage you and your friends to cultivate your strenght and work on your, IMHO, weak spots. Thanks a lot for sharing :goodjob:

1. Come holy spirit
Change the piano to harp and you have a great Neil Young song. Especially the female vox remindes me of Neil's soprano. Nice overall flow.
2. Let's go...
Potential live favourite. Great gospel feeling. You are treating this gem with too gentle hands. This could do with some lettin' off steam. If you do it live, punch it up and people will surley follow you guys to that house, wherever it may be.
3. Wake up
Lame piano, rather boring vox, a terrible synthesized bag-pipe. The song itself have some irish folk in it so it could have been a favourite. My recepie? Fill the singer w some fine moonshine, throw in a fiddler, ditch the synth and back the piece up with a rollin' snare drum.
4. Celebrate Grace
Don't know what to do with this one. I imagine it does it's thing, but it's not my thing. It's supposed to be serene, hymn-ish, so suggesting more power to it is prolly off target. May work well in church...as expected I suppose
5. Shout Halleluhja
I like maraccas, but this one is too IYF and worse, hesitant. Strong chorus, weak verse. The guitar break is nice. I would have prefered more "air" in it for dynamics. That what is left out is sometimes more effective than what you actually hear.
6. Saved by grace
This one cannot be. Sorry. I like the quality of the female voices, but they have to work on phrasing and unity. This kind of piece demands precision in the vox, but the gals start and stop at will. Not a very strong melody.
7. I cry to the lord
I like this one better. With a shift in intensity on the drums btw verse - chorus, some vocal harmonies in the chorus and a mean electric guitar to spice up a break, it would be great. Still, a nice one.
8. Faith
There goes that synth again, hrrrm. Something fishy with the rythm pattern here. I detect a digital drift in sequenze here and it bugs me. Otherwise a nice melody. It could be a really cool chorus if you put in a minor chord there.
9. Jesus, oh Jesus
Sounds as trad as it is. Not much to say besides a gentle, weeping guitar over one verse would have been nice.
10. We are reciving
Here we go pop, cool! The call and response singing is good. Gives a catchy feel to it. The break in the end is a bit pointless without a real push on some lead instrument. A tambourine would have done nicely to stress the "up" feeling of this.
11. Irish blessing
The singing is more coordinated and tighter on this one, good. I know many of you americanos have a weak spot for vibrato singing. I have not, hehe.
12. Go forth
Very folksy and a really strong melody. I like it.

Overall comment:
The songs will rise tenfold when you find confidence in your playing. I feel a sense of holding back and playing safe here. Spiritual music can be soooo groovy when the hips are allowed to sway a bit. I have very poor speakers here so I might be wrong, but the production seems to be all digital and that is a real groove killer. On the other hand, without those gadgets most of us would be unable to make a rec at all so you have to take the good w the bad I guess. There's some fine songwriting in here and the instrumental part is fairly well done. The vocal part is OK, but I encourage you to dare more harmonies. The potential is right there. A tighter sound would be nice. What did you rec track by track. What did you rec live? My experience is, the more live you do, the tighter it gets. Mixing gets tougher, but it's generally worth it. I think it is a really fine effort and that you should be proud of all the work you have put into it and the result that came out. Next time, let those spirits loose, and the Lord will shake, rattle and roll.

Rate:
:D :D :D :D :) :) :) :sad: :sad: :sad:

Thank you both for your input. I find the countering views very interesting.

@ harriet - I have some ideas on how to "thicken" up the vocals.

@ Daghie - Excellent points - We have a violinist in the band now and the bagpipe sound will be going away. Our lead guitarist still needs to lay down some tracks and I will take your suggestions to him. I had never considered a "weeping guitar" on the Jesus song, but that is a good idea. I was thinking of canning the Cry to the Lord tune, but now I'll get the band to keep working on it. Your thoughts parallel mine on many things. Precision is something our singers have had some issues with and I have had to digitally align several songs. Looks like I have a lot more work to do. And playing it safe is something I have been fighting since April. Might be time to drag some folks back into the studio. Thank you for all your comments. I will address each of them.

To everyone else - please feel free to chime in here. The more opinions - good, bad or indifferent - the better. We all interpret musically differently.

Answering more questions - The basic recording method was to lay down a recording of the entire band playing live. Since I only have an eight track a=>d converter those weren't the best quality. Then I overdubbed each of the parts.

Question for Daghie - what type of harp are we talking here on the Holy Spirit song? a blues mouth harp or a stringed harp?

@ harriet - I have some ideas on how to "thicken" up the vocals.
I think Daghie put it well when he encouraged you to "dare more harmonies". That can come from either much fuller background "orchestration" or from the vocalists harmonizing. With the vocals it can be on and off...a bit of just melody interspersed with harmony...alternating thick and thin. I'm not nearly so good at putting it into words as Daghie. I'm primarily an instrumentalist and I think of the voice as an extremely versatile instrument.

When listening to music I've never heard before, I tend to listen for harmonies, rhythms and key modulations. Any one of those three can just grab me and sweep me away. I like some of just about everything from blues to classical to folk to jazz to gospel, and I drive my friends crazy because I never listen to the words even in secular music. I guess that's why I can enjoy Italian opera without understanding a single word. ;)

I'm looking forward to hearing your finished product. If you keep your website updated, it will be really interesting to listen to the evolution. Sounds like you're putting in a LOT of hard work.

A mouth harp. Not played bluesy, but country-ish. Take out your Neil Young cd's and dig in. If you haven't got any I recommend Harvest Moon and After The Goldrush. Go for that type of harp.

rik can you delete my old WA thread? CT never got back to me about why it wasn't allowed here and harriet said she would have preferred some of them not being seen or something :)

@bugsy i'll listen when i can get ma speakers working :)

I'm not good at giving positive feedack - I'm better at expressing what I don't like and why.

1. Come holy spirit - I liked this song.

The first 5 "Come, Holy Spirit," lyrics (female singing Chorus 1) could either use a little fluctuation in tone height/loudness/singer or it needs to be softer so that it becomes "someone in the background singing". I got the image of my old vinyl record getting stuck.
I would have not end "Be with me when I call your name." high, but lower in tone. The highering creates an expectation that isn't forfilled as the next seconds 25 is non-vocal and repetitive of what was before that. If you chose to go higher, give something - else don't go higher.
Come, Holy Spirit, Come into this place. - Why not Come, Holy Spirit, Come into my place. ?

2. Let's go...
It swings. Give it a liittle more power here and there - make us believe that you are enjoying yourself (rejoicing if you wish) that you are going to the house of the Lord and that you want me to know you are happy. Weird idea: Start in the intro with someone saying (not singing): "I rejoiced when they said to me, "Let's go to the house of the Lord"" and then let the choir sing it as the songs is now. The same guy as who is talking in the end.
guitar-solo: nice. As Dagh has also pointed out: don't be afraid to play. Power it up. It is a happy song; show us you are happy.

3. Wake up
I don't like it. The lyrics of the chorus just don't mouth well and don't seem to go together well. They sound more like a bunch of incoherent statements than a sentence. And there are more problems with it. For instance: in the last line of the first part "Lord, be with me each and every day" the meter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meter_(poetry)) is wrong. Also "Lord guide Your people through strife and through pain." has a wrong meter.
Already in the intro -the piano- was not inviting to listen. 1 piano-key at a time. If it was only 1 "line" it would be ok, but the 2nd to 5th piano-line are too much. Try 1 line of piano and then the rest of the instruments (preferably without the piano - it can come back in the middle, to end a "silent part" and to rebegin the singing.
If you want bagpipes, please use them in the song and not between teh song-parts. Now he waits politely till it's his time and you let him do his thing while you do something else and when he is finished you continue while he should jump in and demand attention, pushing the singers to the back (I hope you know what I mean).
The first time I heard this song I was glad it had ended. :sad:

4. Celebrate Grace
It has enough power of itself, Dagh. ;)
Just a suggestion: if you want it (even) more hymnish you might want to cut down on the guitar. Not completely A Capella (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_cappella) but just a little plucking on specific parts. Like on celebrate ... Lord ...
Or maybe plucking during singing, but a full guitar during the intro and in between verses.
What might sound real cool is -in the end- the choir singing a repeating chorus while a solo with a very high voice singing the same text in a different tone. I don't know what that is called in english, but "We are the world" had it in the end. I'm not sure if the song needs it though. I guess not.

5. Shout Halleluhja
Dagh said most of it. Good Chorus, weak verses. The Maracas are ok, but I feel something missing with them. Dagh calls it hesitant, I don't know what it is. No air needed with the guitar-solo.

6. Saved by grace
http://209.85.12.231/2135/53/emo/nervous.gif

They are not singing the same words at the same time. And they are off by so much that it is not a pleasure to listen to it. There are moments they are out of tune so much that the shivers ran over my back. That ruined the song so much that I couldn't notice other things like the strength of the melody that Dagh noticed.
I did get irritated by the long words at the end of each verse. "high, saved, sounds etc.". They don't need to be elongated.

And .... Isn't it "Midst the wonders of evolution" ? ;)

7. I cry to the lord
Sometimes I feel like I don't have a partner
Sometimes I feel like my only friend
its the city I live in, the city of angels
Lonely as i am, together we cry

Inspired by the Red Hot Chili Peppers ? ;) - seriously, it could use some of the Chili peppers power. The singer is in a foul mood, but the instruments don't back him in that.

The drums strike me as more disturbing the song than adding to the song. I don't know what it is and why, but the drums demand my attention too much. The changing of the singing style is nice. More power needed though.

8. Faith
The song sounded great when I first played it. Until ... the singing started. Not alligned with the music - the rhythm is off. The singer is rushing to catch up with the music and when he does catch up his speed is too big so the music is now slower than him. I get the feeling the singer continously speeds up and slows down to please both the lyrics and the music. It's a bumpy ride altogether and that doesn't help the pleasure of listening to it.
It has potential though. But ... "into his hands" and "Into his side" ?? I'm not sure about those lyrics. Yes - I know the story, but still.

9. Jesus, oh Jesus
:goodjob:
What is a Weeping guitar ?? - try to keep it as minimalistic as possible. less = more.

10. We are receiving
A good song again. Like Dagh says, your problem with timing and synchronousity is not present here. I think the break/pause is fitting. Don't change it.

11. Irish blessing
Sounded cool. I was surprised when it was over (wasn't looking at the player, nor the text) the first time.
When I listened more times I did notice several words not sung identically. Line 1 "May", Line 1 "work" & Line 4, "follow". If those can be fixed on a recording it will be like a choir of angels from the heavens. :mischief:

12. Go forth
Not much to add to the comments. A well constructed piece of music. :)

Bugs: If you want to discuss my points - I am on MSN right now.

Rik - Sorry about leaving you out. Sorry also about breaking the rules. I really appreciate your comments though. This is exactly why I wanted to get this group's opinions. I like the evolution comment. I think I might have to use that one in with the right audience.

To All - I have cut and pasted all the comments them into a word document so I can refer to them when I am working on the project.

5. Shout Halleluhja
Dagh said most of it. Good Chorus, weak verses. The Maracas are ok, but I feel something missing with them. Dagh calls it hesitant, I don't know what it is. No air needed with the guitar-solo.

What I meant was that every piece (verse, break, chorus) comes dead on the previous one. I'd prefer a little breathing space here and there that you could fill with a repeated guitar hook
9. Jesus, oh Jesus

What is a Weeping guitar ?? - try to keep it as minimalistic as possible. less = more.

With weeping I mean a very gentle tone that harmonize with the vox. No picking or busy playing.

I have been listening to all the input and I agree with most of it. I will be remixing the pieces and correcting some of the technical problems induced by the digital recording over the next few days. I'll post here as I correct them.

We have a violinist in the band as of July and she is going to record some parts instead of the keyboards so that many solve a few problems. She wants to play something "weepy" (her words) over the top of the Jesus song, so she is thinking like you Daghie.

Actually those aren't maracas (an egg shaker with the same effect) but I agree they too much. Anyway, much work to do and a war to fight at the same time. :rolleyes:

Rik - On the Cry to the Lord song, I wasn't thinking of the RHCP. I was in a fairly deep depression at the time I wrote the lyric. The melody came about a month later. For this song alone I'm glad I started this sharing stuff. I was ready to toss that song and replace it with another. Now I have another candidate to toss.

So no one else would like to make a comment? You can disagree with Daghie, Rik and Harriet. No one is hurting my feelings at all. This is very good stuff and the more the better. I have already made some of these changes that have been suggested. With a dozen pieces, it just takes a bit of time.

Bugs: If you'd want I could move this thread to a place where non-Kissers can see it as well. For instance the C3 MTDG public forum.

i'll critique just as soon as i can find half an hour when my head isnt pounding from hungoverness :)

Bugs: If you'd want I could move this thread to a place where non-Kissers can see it as well. For instance the C3 MTDG public forum.Give me until next week to upload the changes I'm making based on the comments I've had so far. I have to say you guys have been a huge help so far. I 've been working on this for so long, I couldn't see the forest from the trees.

Here is an update on my work since Thursday:

Come H.S. – Tried playing a harp on this one, but I suck. Daghie can you fly over to Spokane to record a few tracks? :D I rerecorded my Les Paul for the middle part. I still need to add that to the track. Should have that done by the end of the weekend.

Let’s Go – Added our bass singer.

Wake up – No change yet. Our violinist is coming on Wednesday to over dub. Then I’ll clean it up.

Celebrate – Adjusted the vocals ever so slightly.

Shout Hallelujah – N/C yet. This one may get swapped for one of two other songs.

Saved by Grace – I can’t fix this one. The tempo is like an accordion. This coming weekend we’re going to try rerecording it. If that doesn’t work, I’ll scrap it and substitute one of two other songs. I have a demo of one of those I can send to whomever is interested.

Cry to the Lord – Lead guitar and bass are coming in this week. I think when I have more instruments in the mix that the drums won’t bother you Rik, plus they need a little editing. BTW, that’s me singing on this one. I was going to scrap it cause I hate my voice, but we’ll keep plugging on this one

Faith – Added our bass vocalist, fixed the vocals. I sang a new part, then aligned the other guys vocals on that. We’ll have a real lead guitar this week. That is just my weak attempt at a solo.

Jesus – Violinist will add her part this week.

Receiving – We’re going to try a guitar or a violin in the little break part.

Blessing – Repaired the small vocal errors. BTW, this one is going to run right into the next one with no “air” on the CD. That’s the way we do it live to end the program.

Go Forth – I received several comments (not here) that they would like to hear more of Monica. You can hear her singing back up and these folks thought that it should be more like on the first song with her and Tom swapping parts. I dug up a copy of her vocal. She’s coming in next Saturday to rerecord it. I’d like to get your opinion on the “duet” version. Still need to get our drummer in for this one. :rolleyes: Daghie?

I'm glad you're making some progress, Bugs, and I can't believe how much work it's taking for you. I only recorded myself once 20 years ago playing classical guitar solos with a boom-box cassette tape recorder. It was pretty awful and no amount of mixing would have helped...what's to mix when it's just you and a guitar??? I admire your determination to get this just right. :)

If the updated songs need a new listening to - let me know and I'll listen and comment.
I knew it was you on the "cry to the lord" song as I read it on the website. Doesn't make a difference to me for my comments.

I'm glad you're making some progress, Bugs, and I can't believe how much work it's taking for you. I only recorded myself once 20 years ago playing classical guitar solos with a boom-box cassette tape recorder. It was pretty awful and no amount of mixing would have helped...what's to mix when it's just you and a guitar??? I admire your determination to get this just right. :)I doubt I will ever get it just right. I just want something that I can listen to myself without feeling like "if I only did..."


Rik - I would like your opinion on the duet version of Go Forth. Monica is coming in next weekend to work on some other things, and if it is worth her time, I'll have her rerecord her part on that one as well

Still need to get our drummer in for this one. Daghie?

You pay flight, I'll bang the drums for free :lol:

Boy, if I could figure out that one, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Rik - I would like your opinion on the duet version of Go Forth. Monica is coming in next weekend to work on some other things, and if it is worth her time, I'll have her rerecord her part on that one as wellDo I need to come over? Just pay a ticket for Dagh and me and I'll come. :smug:

Just in case that is not an option: Is the new song on the website now ?

I repeatedly played "Go forth" in WMP with "Go forth Duet" on your website. Timing them so both players were synchronised. I then used the 2 mute buttons to compare the 2 songs. The Duet is stronger than the non-duet. IMHO.

Thanks Rik. That's three straight opinions that way in the "Beta Group." Two people at work agree with you. Monica is going to come in Saturday to re-record her part. That recording is from four months ago and didn't have her in her best form.

I would like to have you guys over here for about a week. I could get this whole thing wrapped up. There's this little issue about airfare. :hmm:

BTW - I'll send you a copy of a demo for your opinion.

Several songs have undergone extensive revision. Specifically: Wake Up, Celebrate Grace, Shout Hallelujah, Irish Blessing and Go Forth. All opinions are welcomed and encouraged.

It's difficult to make specific comments without having both the old and new versions to listen to one after the other. I love the addition of the violin (or is it viola? or both?)!!! The vocals seem less tentative, but I'd still like a bit of harmony rather than unison when there is more than one person singing.

IMO they've all improved. I found myself humming Go Forth to myself at work the other day...something I NEVER do...so it's obviously grabbed me, huh? :D

Thanks Harriet. I'm having a bit of difficulty getting harmony out of these guys. I'm still trying to figure it out. I've written out parts and everything. :hmm:

That's a violin, although in a few places Teresa overdubbed herself. I call it the Teresa Symphony Orchestra.

That's very cool that you were humming the song. That is a huge compliment. Thanks.

IMO they've all improved. I found myself humming Go Forth to myself at work the other day...something I NEVER do...so it's obviously grabbed me, huh? :DThis morning I woke up with "Go forth" in my head .... :eek:

We had band practice tonight and I shared Harriet's and Rik's comments. It made their day as well as mine. That is a huge compliment. Thanks.

We just did a major rework of "Faith"

Oh, Bugs, I just listened to it. It always has been your most polished piece, but the violin makes such a lovely intro and fits in so well with the vocal sections. Love it!!! :goodjob: Kept playing the intro over and over...but then I'm an instrumentalist at heart.