Please use this thread to report balance recommendations.

Methinks mud golems are still too expensive - it's near impossible to get anywhere in the begining with the Luchiurp because you can't improve any tiles readily.

As mentioned in the bug thread, dwarven and kilmorph units which can build mines can't build Dwarven Mines - easy enough to fix for the Khazad ones but might be tricky for the Kilmorph ones, since non-Dwarves shouldn't get access to dwarven mines.

Kael, I suspect that the balance between the civs may depend in part on game settings. It would be great to have things reasonably well balanced for a range of settings but that may be difficult and take a while; it would help me (and maybe some others?) to have a particular setup or two in mind. What map size and type- one land mass maps like Panagea, or continents? What difficulty and barb setting? I guess the defaults are the natural values for other settings, right?

A thought on OO.

They seem to me perfectly balanced. The only issue is that they come VERY early. Once you can build drown, if you focus even small efforts into producing drown (or converting into drown) you can EASILY conquer any other nation, in its entirety with out much difficulty. Terrain is not an issue, since bypassing along the coast is simple enough. And 4 str (especially with apprenticeship and previous barbarian hunting experiance) becomes nigh unstoppable. I killed an entire civilization in only 20-30 turns. He'd just developed archery. He hadnt a prayer.
This is my thought. Runes and Leaves are supposed to be "early game" religions. Then Message, then Order and Veil right? WHy not move Message back a bit. Make it take a bit longer to get to. OR conversely, make it COST a hell of a lot (maybe allow access to it, but make it cost as much as a couple tiers up). I only say this, to allow other civs to get units that MIGHt be able to combat the drown. I went from 2nd to last, to WAY first in about 30-40 turns. I dont think its "unbalanced" it just comes too early to stop. Archery or SOME kind of unit above warriors should be COMMON before drown start appearing. IMHO.

A couple other minor issues:
AI still doesnt really build farms (was playing the Calabim) and I wish they did, only farms I had are the ones i micromanaged and the resource dependant tiles.

AI doesnt build adepts. I had mage guilds.....but as I like to "play with what i get" i dont micro often. Never once had an adept. Only adepts ive ever had (in any version) are the ones i made myself. AI still have problems differentiating between workers and adepts? Just a few produced would be nice.

-Qes

Loki needs a serious boost. As is he isnt even worth the shields he costs.

1)He cant attack
2)He doesnt have hero trait
3)He has a power of 1 so he stinks at defending

Instead of the immortal trait (or whatever its called) you can just give him something like a 75% withdrawal chance to reflect how easily he can evade most people (the trickster). But as it stands hes just downright useless.

Loki needs a serious boost. As is he isnt even worth the shields he costs.

1)He cant attack
2)He doesnt have hero trait
3)He has a power of 1 so he stinks at defending

Instead of the immortal trait (or whatever its called) you can just give him something like a 75% withdrawal chance to reflect how easily he can evade most people (the trickster). But as it stands hes just downright useless.

Not utterly useless. Since he's immortal, he'll keep respawning in the capital. If he happens to BE IN THE CAPITAL when someones attacking, they'll have to repeatedly kill him off. Not too hard if they've more than one unit. But if Loki was programed to be the "First defender" no matter what, that would essentially put one of the attacking units on hold. ... The more I think about it, i think you are right, he needs ANOTHER sort of boost. :p.
-Qes

Loki needs a serious boost. As is he isnt even worth the shields he costs.

1)He cant attack
2)He doesnt have hero trait
3)He has a power of 1 so he stinks at defending

Instead of the immortal trait (or whatever its called) you can just give him something like a 75% withdrawal chance to reflect how easily he can evade most people (the trickster). But as it stands hes just downright useless.

Yes, he is supposed to be able to use the new culture mechanics that were pulled out of 0.15. Once we get them working he will be more useful.

May I suggest reducing the commerce bonus from a lumbermill next to a river from 2 to 1?

Reason: consider the following situation:

Lumbermill on forest near river:
+2 hammers
+2 commerce
+0.5 health
<=>
Mine near river while running Runes:
+2 hammers
+2 commerce

So a lumbermill is always better. This makes sense in vanilla Civ since there's no way to replant forests, so you have to leave tiles less than optimally productive for half of the game. However in FfH, when you get your druids, you can simply replace all your mines by forests. Personally I think it doesn't feel right when playing the Runes that mines aren't the best improvement. If the lumbermill produced one les gold, there would at least be a trade-off between more gold or more health.

Noticed that the vampire lord unit requires iron or mihtril i know it replaces the immortal for that civ, but seems like a bizarre requirement for a vampire unit.

About the adepts not being built by the AI... could you fool it into thinking that the adept was better by giving it a higher strength, but also having it start with a "-X% strength" promotion or something?

May I suggest reducing the commerce bonus from a lumbermill next to a river from 2 to 1?

Reason: consider the following situation:

Lumbermill on forest near river:
+2 hammers
+2 commerce
+0.5 health
<=>
Mine near river while running Runes:
+2 hammers
+2 commerce

So a lumbermill is always better. This makes sense in vanilla Civ since there's no way to replant forests, so you have to leave tiles less than optimally productive for half of the game. However in FfH, when you get your druids, you can simply replace all your mines by forests. Personally I think it doesn't feel right when playing the Runes that mines aren't the best improvement. If the lumbermill produced one les gold, there would at least be a trade-off between more gold or more health.

mining comes much much sooner than lumbermills doesnt it? though it would be nice if there was a tech bonus of +1 production for mines at some point later in the tech tree.

Yeah, the railraod bonus in vanilla Civ helped mines keep up with other improvements, but we don't have anything like it, here.

mining comes much much sooner than lumbermills doesnt it?

Indeed. That is why there is only one good strategy re forest versus mines (presuming you're not Fellowship):
1. Build mines first, and get free hammers for any forest you chop in the process
2. After having Druids and lumbermills, reverse the process. Plant forests wherever there were mines first, and then place lumbermills on them.

Now of course someone will point out that it takes worker turns to do all that. However I haven't played a single Civ4 where I hadn't all my workers idling and doing nothing in the mid game. Improvement build time is practically irrelevant in Civ4.

though it would be nice if there was a tech bonus of +1 production for mines at some point later in the tech tree.

I agree. I have suggested in the past to let mines produce +1 hammer with Mithril Working. Unfortunately no one reacted then, so I tried another suggestion. :mischief:
This solution would be better because it would also balance mines versus windmills. Now windmills are practically always better than mines, with only a few rare exceptions. Consider the following situation:

Two windmills = 2 food, 2 hammers, 2 commerce
A farm and a mine = 2 food and 2 hammers

Again a no-brainer. Two food and three hammers would make it a trade-off between more hammers or gold.

Again, the worker turns to convert mines to windmills once you can build them is irrelevant. Just a matter of time, not a matter of choice what improvements you should have.

Actually, I was considering suggesting that mines be made better with mithril working myself. I don't see what would be wrong with it. If not there, then maybe even as soon as smelting.

the malakim starting scout + lightbringer should have nomad promotion

Orthus doesn't spawn like a normal barbarian, he can appear anywhere there are other barbarians. Im thinking your troops are in for a bad day.
:mad: there should be a warning on that...

:mad: there should be a warning on that...

Something along the lines of "terminate all barbarians with extreme prejudice lest Orthus spawn or your sorry behind?" ... naw, too confrontational. :mischief:

In all seriousness, where would we put the warning?

Actually, I was considering suggesting that mines be made better with mithril working myself. I don't see what would be wrong with it. If not there, then maybe even as soon as smelting.

Smelting comes way too early in the tech tree, even before Iron working. To be balanced, it should take about as long to b-line to more productive mines than it should to b-line towards infinite forests (Iron Working + Commune with Nature) or good windmills (Machinery).

You're probably right. Mithril working still seems a bit late, though. I guess it's better to make the bonus come late than to add another tech which does one thing and one thing only.

ideally it should go with a tech that has natural dwarf synergy, runes would be way too early, arete already has the extra commerce, and mithril seems the best suited that i can think of, though machinery makes a sort of sense (machinery has good reason to increase the productivity of mining equipment).

Some more reasons why I personally consider Mithril Working a fitting tech:

1. Machinery already gives windmills an extra hammer. If you give mines an extra hammer there too, you only have two possible hill-terraforming research strategies: research towards Machinery, or towards Druids + lumbermills. Placing the additional mine hammer with Mithril would create three possible tech paths to follow. And in general, the more choices, the better IMO.

2. Machinery already is a good builder tech due to the Machinists' Shop that gives +20% minerals. On the other hand, all those endgame techs are currently only beneficial for military players. So giving some extra bonuses to late game techs such as Mithril Working livens the game up a little for builder players.

ya, personally id vote for mithril working, even though machinery seems to make more sense

Is machinery off metal casting, like in vanilla Civ? It would be ideal if it was, considering that FfH's tech tree is all about specialized branches.

Edit: ah, I didn't see page 2. Yes, mithril working might work best, taking those reasons into account.

Something along the lines of "terminate all barbarians with extreme prejudice lest Orthus spawn or your sorry behind?" ... naw, too confrontational. :mischief:

In all seriousness, where would we put the warning?

in the unit description/andor whenever orthus spawns

ya, which i must say i like, i know that whenever i see that message im all paranoid now on where he might be (before spoiled me with the knowledge of exactly where he started)

It still does, you just can't see the tile any more.

Is it just me or is Pact of the Nilhorn near-essential if you want to survive Orthus showing up near you early on?

You can do just fine with a stack of warriors - just fortify them in a city, wait for him to attack (usually after destroying your improvements, but those can be rebuilt) and counter once he gets himself hurt killing some warriors. Of course, when he pops up inside your city radius and goes straight for your capital, getting a stack there in time is a problem.

Is there a reason arcane golem is availible with mithril working, yet requires stone or marble? That seems almost like an error relating to gargoyles?

Vampire Lord has to be level 12 to upgrade it??? That's like 300XP or something ridiculously high!!! It'd better be nigh-on invincible for that upgrade cost!!!

Hypoderms Ash Bearers seem to have wrong combat odds when defending...

They have 2.75 even though they are strength 4 and standing on plains??

Are they damaged?

some promotions and abilities lower the enemies strength instead of increasing your units strength (like elf-slaying i think does that to elves)

I'd lower typhoid Mary's str, or move her to a later tech. She was built by Khazad before Orthus even appeared. Then promptly killed him when he did, and ruined a perfectly dramatic moment.

hmm.. i actually killed typhoid mary with gilden in one battle when she was full strength, and you can get gilden much sooner, typhoid mary doesnt have very good base abilities (only benefit she has is the plague) and though 7 strength may be fairly good, i dont think she has the hero promotion (atleast she didnt have it last time i used her) which usually means shes a low level hero and easily killed (base 7 strength with no promotiions isnt too impressive).

did orthus have promotions? normally orthus has atleast combat 5 which would make him much higher than 7 strength.

I'd lower typhoid Mary's str, or move her to a later tech. She was built by Khazad before Orthus even appeared. Then promptly killed him when he did, and ruined a perfectly dramatic moment.

K reduced her from 7 to 6.

It was immediately, like, two turns later. I don't know if I've used Gilden in some time, but it just seems to me like the AI really likes to build TM. It's probably not really overpowering... but I wanted the axe!

the plague can make her super deadly, but other than that ive never found her strength impressive.. though i dont remember her being 7 strength before (had that changed in one of the more recent versions?)

the plague can make her super deadly, but other than that ive never found her strength impressive.. though i dont remember her being 7 strength before (had that changed in one of the more recent versions?)

No, she was like strength 10 before the tech tree change (which made alchemy able to come much earlier). So she got knocked from 10 to 7, now from 7 to 6.

i really don't think shes too tough strength wise, her plague ability is what makes her dangerous, but strength 7 without any good starter promotions (and no hero promotion?) makes her fairly easy to kill outright.

You can do just fine with a stack of warriors - just fortify them in a city, wait for him to attack (usually after destroying your improvements, but those can be rebuilt) and counter once he gets himself hurt killing some warriors. Of course, when he pops up inside your city radius and goes straight for your capital, getting a stack there in time is a problem.

It is possible to take Orthus with a stack of 3 warriors on the lower difficulty levels (where you're break even or get a bonus vs. barbs). If you can hold a higher defensive tile (50% or 75%) with the proper defensive bonus (that's all you really need). The AI will attack, orthus will be somewhere between 2.0 - 3.0 and then you counter. Personally, a 3 warrior for 1 orthus seems a fair enough trade...

i really don't think shes too tough strength wise, her plague ability is what makes her dangerous, but strength 7 without any good starter promotions (and no hero promotion?) makes her fairly easy to kill outright.
We need to give her the summon plague rats spell that was discussed a while back.:cool:

ya thatd be neat

atm i never bother building her because the plague ability is sketchy at best and when i did build her she ended up dead often

Alright, when a city (especially your starting city) starts in nothing but floodplains, it cripples the game.

Now, isnt flood plains supposed to be great early on, suck late game?
The fact that its nigh impossible to use flood plains worries me a bit. If they were ONLY good for population growth and pumping out settlers and workers that'd be fine, but they cant even do that....even as the malakim.

The -1 health per floodplain negates the extra food gained by it. And flood plains dont particularly provide anything else, like hammers. Therefore, its a 2 food 1 gold square. In the beginning of the game this is death. And if youve NO forests, or hills near by, you simply have to WAIT to produce that settler, which can take forever. There must be some way to mitigate this, make it good for early game but not so great for mid/late game.

Hopefully this isnt too whiny of a post.
-Qes

you can build cottages and farms on them, they're like the best terrain ever, and late game you can vitalize them to plains/floodplains for 4 food 1 production and 1 commerce, plus either a farm (+2 food) or a cottage (+1 production +4 commerce) and even vitalize it to change the one production into another food... i dont think you fully understand floodplains lol

can heroes still be disbanded when you go on strike? havent had it come up in this game, but i lost an adventurer to a strike in a 0.14d game

itd be nice if all heroes cost no maintenance and couldnt be strike disbanded.

you can build cottages and farms on them, they're like the best terrain ever, and late game you can vitalize them to plains/floodplains for 4 food 1 production and 1 commerce, plus either a farm (+2 food) or a cottage (+1 production +4 commerce) and even vitalize it to change the one production into another food... i dont think you fully understand floodplains lol

One cannot build that innital worker fast enough, Barbarians were knocking on my door by the time i had my first worker. The 0 hammer problem is the one i'm talking about. And if there was ''enough" food to produce workers and settlers quickly (to compensate, as the second city could be placed in hammer friendly territory) it'd be fine. But floodplains are not even useful for producing settlers and workers. I had 2 cities by the time my opponent civs had 4, and the barbarians had begun assaulting my territory before I even had a second warrior to defend said city.

-Qes

EDIT: Specifically, if it was feasiable to "use the extra" food to produce units, it'd be alright...but there IS no extra food. That -1 health kicks it, you need buildings (which in the beginng you do not have) to counter act the problem. My city in all 20 squares was flood plain...crazy double river situation. Had I a single woods, it'd have been fine. Had the "extra food" been useful to produce workers/settlers it'd have been fine. As it was I had to wait 60+ turns to produce a settler. I'll also note that the size of the city didnt particularly matter except to anger people in my city. The time to build was the same.

my last game i had forests and floodplains around me, and that city grew quick.

floodplains are amazing terrain, but especially useful early on before you reach the sickness cap, since then they are acting as a 3 production 1 commerce for outputting more settlers (if you stay below the sickness level you do get full use of their 3 food, and 3 food 1 trade is better then any other base tile)

though it would be nice if malakim got +1 production from desert tiles (in civ 3 you got 1 production from deserts, i dont see a problem with malakim getting what civ 3 deemed fair)

one weird thing, why dont desert floodplains get the -25% defense modifier and 2 movement cost? (i find low defense tiles easier to defend improvements, since you can let your enemies land on them and then ambush them there)

what would be even nicer for malakim would be deserts allowing quarries to be built on them, which could add a further 1 commerce and 1 production, and the chance of finding stone or marble

my last game i had forests and floodplains around me, and that city grew quick.

floodplains are amazing terrain, but especially useful early on before you reach the sickness cap, since then they are acting as a 3 production 1 commerce for outputting more settlers (if you stay below the sickness level you do get full use of their 3 food, and 3 food 1 trade is better then any other base tile)

though it would be nice if malakim got +1 production from desert tiles (in civ 3 you got 1 production from deserts, i dont see a problem with malakim getting what civ 3 deemed fair)

My city was sick nearly from the beginning. There were one set of hills, and 19 floodplain/desert. The floodplains looked juicy, so i poped down the city. Then i noticed that my city wasnt growing very "Fast". It was sick nearly from the start, and the 3 free techs i got from goodie huts, were the only thing that kept me "on par" score wise with the AI.

What i noticed, is that because i get a -1 health PER floodplains utilized, and each floodplain is a 3/1 food/gold squaire, effectively, im only generating 2/1 food/gold per tile. In this....its not that great. Considering each citizen takes 2 to eat, and the city tile itself is worth 2. Im generating a whopping 2 food extra per turn, REGARDLESS of how big my city gets. I built a warrior, which took a long time at the 1 hammer progress. And then i built a settler, which as the 3 total input in production took forever. I know that "Waiting" and building a worker first (i did have agriculture) would be another 20 some turns behind my rivals. So i settled first - the only reason i had warriors by the time the barbarians came was because of that second city. Then i finished a worker when all hell broke loose. I would up giving up, because the penalties were just too steep initially. I couldnt maintain the farms, and cottages, becuase barbarins looked at them with druel in their mouths. All in all it COULD have been awesome, had I a single forest in the area. The fact that I was Malakim just hurt it all the more, maybe they should not receive penalties in health from floodplain? Or mayhap there should be a limit on how much negative health floodplains can generate. Over all a 2 1 square without hammers is crippling In the very beginning of the game.
-Qes

Treetop defense effects attacks too. Makes sense if goint into forests, but if you are in a forest next to a city, until the last defender is gone, you'll get the bonus.

I don't know how balanced or unbalanced this is, but it kinda got me miffed: I usually don't even bother making any kind of effort for bowyers as the gains it gives for the amount of research requiered doesn't seem so great. I'm usually at or past iron working by the time I get research or trade for it. Well I was playing a game as Amurites and after getting bronze working I found no copper resoruces in any reasonably accessible areas, the nearest was deap within my neighbors territory. So I began making plans to warmonger and since I was Amurite I decided to go for bowyers to get the bowmen instead of head for iron working and hope for the best. Though I had built up a preaty good research base, this still tooks some time as I was cramed into 3 cities (one almost devoid of commerce). Well I finally get there and am ready to start making some bowmen to get my war on and I find out they requier a metal. One of the perks about bowmen in vanilla was that they did not requier metal, and therefor could provide some means of medium strength combat for those lacking metal.
I understand that a 6 str unit with no resource requierment might be a bit much, so maybe they could be 5 but not requier metal.

the tech for them takes long enough to warrant 6 str without resources id think, i hate researching that tech, it takes forever O_o


i added more to my previous post, QES, that you prolly missed :p

about your situation.. floodplains are good.. in moderation, i only had about 4 or 5, and some forests, which worked out great

My city was sick nearly from the beginning. There were one set of hills, and 19 floodplain/desert. The floodplains looked juicy, so i poped down the city. Then i noticed that my city wasnt growing very "Fast". It was sick nearly from the start, and the 3 free techs i got from goodie huts, were the only thing that kept me "on par" score wise with the AI.

I've done this before. It's all about balance. Mostly flood plains is good. All flood plains gives to much sickness to grow the city.

I've done this before. It's all about balance. Mostly flood plains is good. All flood plains gives to much sickness to grow the city.

I would say, Some floodplains, 3-6 of them. Some hills, and the rest plains/grasslands with resources and forests is a good start. (and 1-3 coastal tiles all with sea resources, if its a coastal city)

And plenty of river.

lol, thats too much to ask, dont you think ?

Perfect city placement ^^

The vampire Lord requiring lvl 12 is crazy. I dodnt think Ive ever had a unit hit lvl 12 in any game ive played. Lvl 6 is fine but 12 is insane.

Wait, are flood plains giving a full +1 :yuck: now? I thought they were 1/3 or something before. Also, maybe the Malakim shouldn't face the :yuck: penalty, seeing as how they are deserts people. It would be a light economic advantage, but still nice.

Oh, and can't vampires go above 100 xp by devouring populations?

Edit: forgot to mention this... maybe we should make Alchemy dependent on something else, too, but make Typhoid Mary a hero? Heck, even if she's only strength 5. Currently, only the AI builds her (and very early for some reason).

I alredy got vampires whit more than 700 exp... of course i alredy could have won the game, and was just having fun.

The vampire Lord requiring lvl 12 is crazy. I dodnt think Ive ever had a unit hit lvl 12 in any game ive played. Lvl 6 is fine but 12 is insane.

Feasting on the civilian population used to be a quick and easy way to get enough experience for a significantly large number of levels. I don't know how effective it is anymore now that it takes 2 pop points instead of 1.

Need to teach the AI what to learn as a Conjurer. I'm beseiging a Sheaim city with 5 conjurers, all either enchantment, fire (not on desert) or no spheres at all. They could be providing me experience!

Maybe I missed something, here, but aren't the mana nodes supposed to give a :hammers: and :commerce: boost? Now we're back to square one, trying to keep them out of your workable radius...

could make mana nodes in a cities radius grant XP bonuses to adepts trained there

Has anyone ever made very good use of Barnaxus? By the time i make him I never really get to use him. (I'm at peace and the barbarians are gone). Also - since hes not a hero (he ought to be) and doesnt gain xp by himself, he always gets killed by the time i wanna use him. As the Luchurip seem very dependant on "good golems" for warfare, it strikes me as necessary to level up ol' Barnaxus to decent levels. The only time he ever gets involved he dies, and my late game suffers cause i have 0 decent golems.

Shouldnt Barnaxus gain exp as a hero? Maybe either VERY slowly, or give him a cap not as high as regular heros? The issue for me is that when he's useful as a str 5, Im typically not at war with barbarians dead. I shouldnt be FORCED to declare war on someone so that i've a viable late game strategy should i?

Maybe I'm just confused as to how he works.
-Qes

could make mana nodes in a cities radius grant XP bonuses to adepts trained there

That would force you to build all your adepts in that single city to avoid inefficiency though. Not fun IMHO. :( Same with those wonders that only give promotions to the city it is in. :q:

to some extent maybe, but sometimes you just gotta ignore certain things and then enjoy them as bonuses when itactually proves useful

barnaxus getting 1xp per turn would definately be bad (remember, his promotion rate means the promotion rate of all those golems, so if he got 1xp per turn you're basically givign every golem the hero promotion). a slow rate might be interesting.

I don't know how balanced or unbalanced this is, but it kinda got me miffed: I usually don't even bother making any kind of effort for bowyers as the gains it gives for the amount of research requiered doesn't seem so great. I'm usually at or past iron working by the time I get research or trade for it. Well I was playing a game as Amurites and after getting bronze working I found no copper resoruces in any reasonably accessible areas, the nearest was deap within my neighbors territory. So I began making plans to warmonger and since I was Amurite I decided to go for bowyers to get the bowmen instead of head for iron working and hope for the best. Though I had built up a preaty good research base, this still tooks some time as I was cramed into 3 cities (one almost devoid of commerce). Well I finally get there and am ready to start making some bowmen to get my war on and I find out they requier a metal. One of the perks about bowmen in vanilla was that they did not requier metal, and therefor could provide some means of medium strength combat for those lacking metal.
I understand that a 6 str unit with no resource requierment might be a bit much, so maybe they could be 5 but not requier metal.

Recon are the section of untis that dont require any resources. Archers require resources at 1 level laters than melee units. So their t3 units require copper and their t4 units require iron.

I will take a look at the research cost of bowyers, and see if it should be adjusted.

The vampire Lord requiring lvl 12 is crazy. I dodnt think Ive ever had a unit hit lvl 12 in any game ive played. Lvl 6 is fine but 12 is insane.

Level 12 isnt very hard for a vampire.

Maybe I missed something, here, but aren't the mana nodes supposed to give a :hammers: and :commerce: boost? Now we're back to square one, trying to keep them out of your workable radius...

Yeah, the bonus's were removed when the new mana system was put in. I feel mana nodes are worthwile as is and dont need a production change too.

Has anyone ever made very good use of Barnaxus? By the time i make him I never really get to use him. (I'm at peace and the barbarians are gone). Also - since hes not a hero (he ought to be) and doesnt gain xp by himself, he always gets killed by the time i wanna use him. As the Luchurip seem very dependant on "good golems" for warfare, it strikes me as necessary to level up ol' Barnaxus to decent levels. The only time he ever gets involved he dies, and my late game suffers cause i have 0 decent golems.

Shouldnt Barnaxus gain exp as a hero? Maybe either VERY slowly, or give him a cap not as high as regular heros? The issue for me is that when he's useful as a str 5, Im typically not at war with barbarians dead. I shouldnt be FORCED to declare war on someone so that i've a viable late game strategy should i?

Maybe I'm just confused as to how he works.
-Qes

The Luchuirp are all about Barnaxus. He is probably the most powerful hero in the game, but you may need to adjust your strategy to be able to get good results.

Yeah, the bonus's were removed when the new mana system was put in. I feel mana nodes are worthwile as is and dont need a production change too.

No one questions the worth of mana nodes. People question the use of having them in your city radius.

No one questions the worth of mana nodes. People question the use of having them in your city radius. Well, then they are easier to protect. Powercomes with a cost, in ths case a slight tile penalty.
Has anyone ever made very good use of Barnaxus? By the time i make him I never really get to use him. Extrodinary use. Start a war if you need to. Rush towards knowledge of the ether after construction so you can keep him healthy. And with resurection, you aren't screwed late game if he dies.
It might be nice if he could get heroic strength, but then, after leveling up, just replace him and keep in tucked away safely in the capital.

Well, then they are easier to protect. Powercomes with a cost, in ths case a slight tile penalty.

True of course. For the record, personally I don't really care where the nodes are.

Recon are the section of untis that dont require any resources. Archers require resources at 1 level laters than melee units. So their t3 units require copper and their t4 units require iron.

I will take a look at the research cost of bowyers, and see if it should be adjusted.
its placement on the tech tree seems good, but its cost is double that of the tech that gives Stygian guards O_o (Fanaticism gives Stygian guards and costs half the amount of Bowyers, and Fanaticism comes 1 step later than Bowyers on the tech tree).

Well, then they are easier to protect. Powercomes with a cost, in ths case a slight tile penalty.

Couldn't the same thing be said about valuable resources like mirthril? And yet mithril gives you eight :hammers: or something to that effect.

Having a tile that you can't improve in your city radius is really just a penalty of whatever you would normally put there. So if a mana node spawned right next to my capitol, it's sacrificing the 1:hammers:, four extra :commerce: that I would normally put there. Is there some reason for taking their yields away that I'm not aware of?

a new terrain could be created called unuseable terrain that only mana nodes spawn on so you wouldnt feel like you're not putting them to use (since otherwise theyd just be 0 yield tiles that cant be improved) lol

Couldn't the same thing be said about valuable resources like mirthril? And yet mithril gives you eight :hammers: or something to that effect.

Having a tile that you can't improve in your city radius is really just a penalty of whatever you would normally put there. So if a mana node spawned right next to my capitol, it's sacrificing the 1:hammers:, four extra :commerce: that I would normally put there. Is there some reason for taking their yields away that I'm not aware of?

Its a trade off, it has pros and cons. The most efficient build may be to have the node in your empire but outside of your city radius. If so you may need to consider if you want to drop your city right beside to hook it up right away or go farther from it and have it take longer to access, and risk an opponents cultural borders will take it.

As for the mithril, we dont balance like that. I have no desire to have a mana node conform to the same laws as a mithril node. In fact my goal is the opposite (to have each object present its own issues and flavor).

But the heart of it is that having mithril close to a city would increase the cities production capability, but a death node... probably not.

Ideally I would like some node types to give bonuses (life boosts the health of the city that works it, death lowers the health, chaos increases the chance of revolts, law increasces productivity, etc etc). But their is a problem in that the AI would find the most rewarding of these and just build tons of that type. So if earth was the best all of the ai leaders would build nothing but earth nodes.

In time we may work around that and have the AI block those bonus's when considering which one it prefers. But for now they all have to be equal. And I cant picture a money or production boost that is applicable to all types.

The vampire Lord requiring lvl 12 is crazy. I dodnt think Ive ever had a unit hit lvl 12 in any game ive played. Lvl 6 is fine but 12 is insane.

Vampires are really really good at gaining xp. They can attack as many time as they want a turn (using bloodpets to sustain themselves), and they can gorge themselves on xp. Personally, I use the feast ability a lot on captured cities, since they will probably loose a lot of population anyway due to high unhappiness...

Lvl 12 is what, 122 xp ? If you play aggressively the whole game and protect your best units, that's easy.

Has anyone ever made very good use of Barnaxus? By the time i make him I never really get to use him. (I'm at peace and the barbarians are gone). Also - since hes not a hero (he ought to be) and doesnt gain xp by himself, he always gets killed by the time i wanna use him. As the Luchurip seem very dependant on "good golems" for warfare, it strikes me as necessary to level up ol' Barnaxus to decent levels. The only time he ever gets involved he dies, and my late game suffers cause i have 0 decent golems.

Shouldnt Barnaxus gain exp as a hero? Maybe either VERY slowly, or give him a cap not as high as regular heros? The issue for me is that when he's useful as a str 5, Im typically not at war with barbarians dead. I shouldnt be FORCED to declare war on someone so that i've a viable late game strategy should i?

Maybe I'm just confused as to how he works.
-Qes

had a game with the luchirup and got barnaxus while there where still some barbarians around, i used him to kill as many of the invading barbarians as possible and got him the combat 5 promotion quickly.
that made my golems extremely powerful, barnaxus wasn't of any use though, i mean actively, since he isn't strong enough and he's far to valuable to risk getting him killed.

Imho the Luchirup are too dependent on their hero Barnaxus, he makes a great difference.
Don't get me wrong, i like the idea of that hero very much, its just that if he's not around the golems are quite weak, with him they are extremely strong.

Maybe instead of giving the other golems the combat 1-5 promotions he could give them a percentage of his XP, maybe 10-20%.
and i would give Barnaxus some sort of Immortal promotion, he gets revived in the capital after dying but looses all XP.
It would still be devastating to the Luchirup, since their Golems will loose all their XP, but they have a chance to gain their strenght back.
Maybe the "reborn" Barnaxus could come back with a higher base strenght, if you have access to iron, copper or mithril.

just my thoughts about that particular hero, right now you have pretty much lost if you loose barnaxus, unless you're much stronger than everyone else, and someone might consider using barnaxus to attack with just a 99% chance, without relying on saving/loading, which kinda feels like cheating.

mfg
Mavy

In time we may work around that and have the AI block those bonus's when considering which one it prefers. But for now they all have to be equal. And I cant picture a money or production boost that is applicable to all types.

Why not make each have an equal bonus and equal penalty (in the eyes of the AI).

And isnt there a function in the SDK that the ai uses to value bonuses? You could add all your mana bonuses there and tweak the ai value for each.

Why not make each have an equal bonus and equal penalty (in the eyes of the AI).

And isnt there a function in the SDK that the ai uses to value bonuses? You could add all your mana bonuses there and tweak the ai value for each.

Yeap, thats the AI change I was refering to.

How many mana nodes are created with rites of ogmah?

I countend fife new sources on a large map - seems pretty few for all the time spent to get it finished...

One cannot build that innital worker fast enough, Barbarians were knocking on my door by the time i had my first worker. The 0 hammer problem is the one i'm talking about. And if there was ''enough" food to produce workers and settlers quickly (to compensate, as the second city could be placed in hammer friendly territory) it'd be fine. But floodplains are not even useful for producing settlers and workers. I had 2 cities by the time my opponent civs had 4, and the barbarians had begun assaulting my territory before I even had a second warrior to defend said city.

-Qes

EDIT: Specifically, if it was feasiable to "use the extra" food to produce units, it'd be alright...but there IS no extra food. That -1 health kicks it, you need buildings (which in the beginng you do not have) to counter act the problem. My city in all 20 squares was flood plain...crazy double river situation. Had I a single woods, it'd have been fine. Had the "extra food" been useful to produce workers/settlers it'd have been fine. As it was I had to wait 60+ turns to produce a settler. I'll also note that the size of the city didnt particularly matter except to anger people in my city. The time to build was the same.

I might be bugging into a good argument here, but I would guess a freak occurence where you had 19 floodplains in your starting city area doesn't require a balance change in the game ;)

I might be bugging into a good argument here, but I would guess a freak occurence where you had 19 floodplains in your starting city area doesn't require a balance change in the game ;)

there were some deserts in there too. And a single hill. Couldnt develop mines fast enough to make a difference (again, lack of worker anyway).
-Qes

On Barnaxus...

I realize just how uber the Luchurip can become if they have Ol barny up and promoted to high levels. The problem is that he's often not a match for things When i do finally want to use him. I tend to be pacifist with anything other than war-monger specific tactics. Barny didnt come along until most barbarians were gone...so i would either have to start a war with my niebhors or neglect him. IF i neglect him, my late-mid and late game tactics hurt, as my units cant hold up to promoted versions of my enemies. If brave (and i tend to be) i can use clever tactics, and then overwhelming force in combination, but the last war i fought with the chipries was fought to a virtual stalemate. Had Barny not died uselessly (he couldnt attack anything) and had a few levels, i might have done better. As it was, i never used him "too precious" and/or "not at war".

If ol barny had that idea of A quasi-immortality promotion, one in which he always looses 100% of experiance when he dies, it'd balance things a bit. It'd be easier to level him in the late game, but if/when he died, youd ahve to start over. It'd also keep the reward for him being used early game and merely protected late game, in that youd have all the promotions you could want and would not want to risk him anymore. But if your first war is mid/late game...maybe there should be a way to level ol barny?
-Qes

Though I don't feel Barnaxus needs any balancing, I like the idea of a sort of 'immortality' for him. Perhaps when carryable items are integrated, his death could spawn his body as an item which the Luichirp would need to carry back to their palace. Then he is re-made with his memory wiped (i.e., 0 XP). :)

- Niilo

Frankly, it doesn't seem to me that a hero who requires only two technologies to be researched before he can be built needs to worry too much about barbarians about for him to kill. If you don't go for construction right away, then you should have to face the drawbacks of having focused on other aspects. Those drawbacks would include (but are not limited to) having a slightly harder time levelling Barnaxus.

I post it here too because it got missed in the bugs thread:

- slaves cannot explore ancient tempels (build farms over it outside of the fat crosses), with automated workers leave old improvments you then have to go and explore the tempel manually

Another thing:

-Could you change world units so that they can't be rushed - makes them harder to get (thesame as world wonders.)

edit:

- Loshas Valas seems to be unable to get second level spells - even though she has channeling II and death I...

Frankly, it doesn't seem to me that a hero who requires only two technologies to be researched before he can be built needs to worry too much about barbarians about for him to kill. If you don't go for construction right away, then you should have to face the drawbacks of having focused on other aspects. Those drawbacks would include (but are not limited to) having a slightly harder time levelling Barnaxus.

Well i would agree, but considering the Luchurips dependancy on Barnaxus, there should be alternative methods of leveling him. Otherwise if you DO NOT go for construction as fast as possible you hamper your game, regardless of what else your doing. I'm ok with it being a specialty, but then Ol Barny shouldnt be as necessary. Maybe add (expensive) buildings that provide the same benefit barny does, a building per promotion type. This would mean youd have to build A LOT of buildings in A LOT of cities, to get the same effect as simply leveling ol barny up. It should be a redundancy not cumulative benefit. All i'm saying is that if one cannot level barny, there should be alternative methods of getting golems to be on par - maybe it should be an expensive proposition, like a ton of buildings, but there should be SOME way to do it. Else the luchurip are forced down a path every game.

Building ideas: (Each representing a Dwarven Golem "Specialist")
Golem Assembly Lines I - V. <Medium Expense> Each provides a combat * I - V appropriatly, each requireing the last version of the building to be built.
Assult Construction Yard I - III. <Medium Expense> Each provides city raider I - III appropriately, each requiring the last version of the building to be built.
Deflective Plating Shop I, II <Cheap, Expensive>- Provides Anti-archery I, II as appropriate.
Multiple Arms Shop I, II - <Cheap, Expensive>Provides Anti-Melee I, II as appropriate
Aesthetic Manipulator - <Expensive> Provides Fear promotion
Arcane Vats - <Expensive> Provides Magic Resistance
Reaction Matrix Gyromancer I, II - <Cheap, Expensive> Provides Anti-Cavalry I, II as appropriate.
Golem AutoMechanic I, II - <Medium Expense> Provides Mobility I, II as appropriate.

About: Bare in mind that these are all intended to be redundant with Barnaxus abilities, this is only "in case he dies". The expense of trying to build all these buildings in different cities would be astronomical and time consuming, plus technolgoies would be required. In this, there is a "Second Option" if things go badly. Also not every promotion should be available through building forms. There are no withdraw or terrain bonuses, becuase I think those sorts of tactics shouldnt be available. But that's just me.
-Qes

I wouldn't mind if he would come back after he dies, simply because of the AI. I doubt it manages to both level him up and keep him out of danger at the same time.

about: Bare in mind that these are all intended to be redundant with Barnaxus abilities, this is only "in case he dies".
You are aware that he only gives combat I-V promotions right? Not saying other buildings are or aren't a good idea, but Barnaxus doesn't give city raider, etc.

You are aware that he only gives combat I-V promotions right? Not saying other buildings are or aren't a good idea, but Barnaxus doesn't give city raider, etc.

I wasnt aware, but im not surprized. Every time i play the Luchurip my "war timing" is never in tune with when Barny is useful. I had no idea what he gave, because Im not at war when str 5 might be useful. Almost always my wars are during str 3 or str 7-9 eras. And of course the be all end all str 12+. So str 5 never is really a time i choose to be at war..not sure why, just never really happens. When barny is useful im busy doing other things not wanting to get invovled, but by the time i get to 9 and 12....my golems are feeling the pinch. I really dont even BUILD golems, just lots of archers and cavalry, because the golems are a bit of a joke if unupgraded. Slow pudgy and not effective.

These building ideas were meant to supplement ol Barny in the late/mid and Late game. I still like them, even if barny doesnt add all the options.
-Qes

More of a question than a recommendation. I have a scout, give it woodsman or guerilla, then upgrade to a raider or other cavalry. Does this promotion still effect it, or does the no terrain defenses override this? I'd check, but I can't see the odds when I'm attacked.

You can see the odds when you're attacked.

After a battle, open up the Combat Log. It's one of the tabs available through the little book in the top left corner.

More of a question than a recommendation. I have a scout, give it woodsman or guerilla, then upgrade to a raider or other cavalry. Does this promotion still effect it, or does the no terrain defenses override this? I'd check, but I can't see the odds when I'm attacked.

It works fine, it's a great asset when you need only 1 more movement to attack or withdraw :)

Well i would agree, but considering the Luchurips dependancy on Barnaxus, there should be alternative methods of leveling him.

It is mainly about patience. Choose a weak city of a weak civilization, stack defense, siege, mages, medics. Reduce defenses and fireball it. Finish with Barnaxus (95+ odds) -> get 1XP or 2XP. Repeat till you get 26XP and Combat5.
Joining Barnaxus with Great Commander makes this even faster.

It is mainly about patience. Choose a weak city of a weak civilization, stack defense, siege, mages, medics. Reduce defenses and fireball it. Finish with Barnaxus (95+ odds) -> get 1XP or 2XP. Repeat till you get 26XP and Combat5.
Joining Barnaxus with Great Commander makes this even faster.

Tried that a couple times. An assassin or shadow usually gets him. While waiting in the stack to wither down the opposition. I just hate being "Forced" to attack early when i get barny.
-Qes

if you're speaking about approx. str7 units situation, counter the shadow with longbows/crossbows or just rangers and it should be safe. providing the camping stack is in forest/on hill. ai isn't that tough in active defending. it can cost a bit, but you do it for all your golems.

(i'm not sure if anti-melee is against golems as well)

if you're speaking about approx. str7 units situation, counter the shadow with longbows/crossbows or just rangers and it should be safe. providing the camping stack is in forest/on hill. ai isn't that tough in active defending. it can cost a bit, but you do it for all your golems.

(i'm not sure if anti-melee is against golems as well)

The assassins and shadows target the weakest unit in the stack, so if ive got barny and units above 5 str, he's the weakest and gets picked off. General tactics aside, its the tech level that usually causes problems. And multiples add up. Ouchy.
-Qes

hmm, i didnt know that, i usually exterminate those bastards while attacking (hate +50melee).

maybe using a warrior as a dummy and exterminating assassins next turn? or the new lifespark? just hypotheses ...

I usually fight str4-5 wars after founding of 3religions to know who are my long-term enemies, so i have a good use of barnaxus. i had to level him late only once and i had no problems, probably because i attacked civ not teching recon units.

hmm, i didnt know that, i usually exterminate those bastards while attacking (hate +50melee).

maybe using a warrior as a dummy and exterminating assassins next turn? or the new lifespark? just hypotheses ...

I usually fight str4-5 wars after founding of 3religions to know who are my long-term enemies, so i have a good use of barnaxus. i had to level him late only once and i had no problems, probably because i attacked civ not teching recon units.

My general theme (though not on purpose) has been early wars, no war, then end game wars. I'm able to avoid the 4-6 strength bracket, but war usually erupts about 9 and definately 12. Sometimes i get involved early during 3 str wars...but i dont have barny at that point yet.
-Qes

but i dont have barny at that point yet.
-Qes
My point is that you should have Barnaxus at that point. If you don't, you should play something besides Luchuirp.

Hmm perhaps beef up Barny to str 6 or 7? Make him like a Maceman?

My point is that you should have Barnaxus at that point. If you don't, you should play something besides Luchuirp.

While I apprecaite specialties, Must i really follow a regimine? Must i play a certain way or suffer unduely? Perhaps I should suffer some, or struggle in other ways. But to be forced into warfare because of Barny seems odd, thematically and game play wise. I'm not partial to having been told "Play like this or dont play them." THe idea of an additive bonus is great, Barny is a great idea, but should the Luchurip strategy REQUIRE him? Should there not be "other" perhaps less effecient options?
-Qes

There are, QES.

Use more golems. Or use archers and cavalry, as you seem to have already opted to do. How are those not other, less efficient options?

One solution for the Barnaxus problem might be to give the Luchuirp a series of unique buildings, replacing the hero shrine thingy that can be built when a racial hero dies.

With five expensive buildings like these, each one requiring the previous and granting a combat promotion for golems, getting Barnaxus killed would no longer permanently cripple any future golem use, but rather require a sizable hammer investment to make up for losing him.

There are, QES.

Use more golems. Or use archers and cavalry, as you seem to have already opted to do. How are those not other, less efficient options?

I've played several games with the Golem-dwarves and each time ive lost barny at inopportune moments, times i hold him back, result in the same thing - no leveling. Having him come out for "hit and run" hasnt worked, because as soon as he's out he dies.

And ive continued playing well past his death anyway. Late game it's very noticeable because my units are about half as strong and MORE expensive than the units im fighting. I wind up using cavalry and archers (as i said in previous posts) instead of golems. But it doesnt make a lot of sense to have a golem-based society neglect golem usage.

I like barny, i just wish he was more of a bonus than a necessity.
-Qes

A suggestion and a question:

Why not let Pacifism give a +75% birth rate without the need to have a state religion in the city? That way the Grigori would have more than one religion civic to choose between.

Also, what would you think of letting the Grigori Tavern give a happiness bonus if the city is religionless, but -1 happiness for each religion in the city? Currently Free Religion is the only possible civic for the Grigori in the religion category, which basically means the more religions the Grigori have in their cities, the better. Which I assume is the exact opposite of what the Grigori are supposed to be about...

With my suggested change to the Tavern, Free Religion would only compensate for the existence of religion, instead of rewarding you for it. It would also make the Luonnatar unit more useful.

Might be nice if there was a dwarven vault-like building in every Grigori city, which changed based on the number of religions in it. Then again, the Grigori aren't currently very economically strong as it is, so it might be wise to make this more of a bonus than a penalty.

Grigori shouldn't get any bonuses from religions at all. If you read the story behind Cassius, he hates ALL religions and refuses to honor any of them. He doesn't honor them all equally - his entire realm is anti-all-religion.

More accurately, Grigori should get bonuses from having no religions. It'd be a significant boost for them if they had an extra-high happycap in the early game pre-religion, and it would make the Luonnotar and, possibly, theocracy valuable for them, especially if you can make the agnostic trait allow 'no state religion' to count for effects limited to having your state religion.

In order to balance improving their early game so significantly, though, I think it would be necessary to implement my earlier suggestion that, instead of having a specific great person Adventurer, make each of their great people able to be upgraded into a military unit, so that the use of Adventurers becomes a truly strategic decision.

Did I ever say I wanted them to get a bonus for having more religions? Here's how I think it would work: every time a religion gets founded, each Grigori city gets a bonus, unless the religion spreads there, in which case it gets no bonus at all. Thus, they would be much the same in the early game, but as the religion founding era goes by, they get bonuses to rival those that can use those religions.

Also, I think the Adventurer mechanism really hinders the Grigori economically more than it helps them. They ought to have some way of getting other great people without sacrificing their heroes (which they get none of besides the Adventurers, if I remember correctly).

Grigori shouldn't get any bonuses from religions at all. If you read the story behind Cassius, he hates ALL religions and refuses to honor any of them. He doesn't honor them all equally - his entire realm is anti-all-religion.
I think he meant bonuses decreasing as the # religions increase.

I'm not so sure, though. Even if Cassiel is zealously anti-religion, I don't think his people would neccesarily be. It makes sense that he gets happy poeple for free religion--people are happier when they get to choose what they want, even if their leader disdains their choices. After all, if having religion in the city at all made people unhappy, why would it have spread there in the first place? Unless you think religion is more likely to cause conflict in Gigori lands than in lands with a strong state religion.

Also, I think the Adventurer mechanism really hinders the Grigori economically more than it helps them. They ought to have some way of getting other great people without sacrificing their heroes (which they get none of besides the Adventurers, if I remember correctly).
Adenturers give such a strong starting military in the early years that it can translate into a great economic bonus. Shortly after your second adventurer comes around, you can upgrade them both into city raider + shock axemen or archers, then take a rival's starting city.

That's certainly true, and it could be a nice econimic advantage to capture some prime city spots and wipe out a rival that would be landgrabbing against you, but do we want to force the Grigori into an early war?

I could certainly see Cassiel waging all-out war against a foe, using Adventurers to their fullest, but under what circumstances. I'd say it would be most likely for him to war against the strongest promoters of the gods he's taken vendetta against. In the early game, before many religions are founded, would not be the time that he'd be warring.

heros in quick games almost seem... underwelming.
heros in marathon are the end all be all cure all
i think the xp for heros(and maybe magic users) need to be balanced based on gamespeed

I would suggest allowing removing jungle earlier, then it is right now. Especially in epic and marathon game this is very annoying, to have the ability to remove jungle after 400-700 turns. Civilization that has a lot of jungle within its border has practically no chance against other civs. Removing jungle takes longer then removing forest, so it wouldn’t be a drastically advantage anyway. I would suggest allowing jungle removing with “smelting” technology or sooner.

Removing jungle takes longer then removing forest, so it wouldn’t be a drastically advantage anyway.

Of course it would be "/.

i hate jungles for this reason, but i think its beter to just play Ice Age maps where theres less jungle (and it makes sense with the theme)

Did I ever say I wanted them to get a bonus for having more religions? Here's how I think it would work: every time a religion gets founded, each Grigori city gets a bonus, unless the religion spreads there, in which case it gets no bonus at all. Thus, they would be much the same in the early game, but as the religion founding era goes by, they get bonuses to rival those that can use those religions.

That's a much better idea than tying it to the Tavern. :goodjob:

After all, if having religion in the city at all made people unhappy, why would it have spread there in the first place?

Well, Agnostic reduces religion spread, so they're not really supposed to spread in Grigori lands.

I'm not so sure, though. Even if Cassiel is zealously anti-religion, I don't think his people would neccesarily be. It makes sense that he gets happy poeple for free religion--people are happier when they get to choose what they want, even if their leader disdains their choices.

That's why with Free Religion it should be possible to counter the negative effects of many religions, let it have no effect. But them giving a happiness boost doesn't seem in the spirit of an agnostic civ.

That's a much better idea than tying it to the Tavern. :goodjob:



Well, Agnostic reduces religion spread, so they're not really supposed to spread in Grigori lands.



That's why with Free Religion it should be possible to counter the negative effects of many religions, let it have no effect. But them giving a happiness boost doesn't seem in the spirit of an agnostic civ.
it's cassiel, not his people who are agnostic-if he wants to let his people pursue religion freely then he can do so by all means.

it's cassiel, not his people who are agnostic-if he wants to let his people pursue religion freely then he can do so by all means.

He can do so. The Grigori civ just shouldn't get a happiness boost from it IMO.

Some Grigori text states that the Grigori realm contains lots of immigrants who came to them because they were fed up with the gods. So one could argue besides Cassiel himself there are few people in Grigori lands who aren't agnostic too.

But whatever, that's a matter of opinion.

However, the problem is also that Free Religion is not an option, but the only civic of the Religion category that the Grigori can get boni from. So a multiple religion strategy is not an option, but the only good strategy for the Grigori. Surely you cannot claim that is in the spirit of the Grigori civ?

Hence my proposed change to the Pacifism civic in addition to the suggestions to make religion a more dynamic factor involving an actual choice: counter them actively or tolerate them.

Last game I played Acheron spawned among me and four other civs. The AI consider it just another barbarian city. When there was no more space to expand, they started to camp in front of its gates with quite large armies (max. was 7 units) of T2/T3 units. I suppose all had around 0% odds, but sometimes they managed to attack. In the end the dragon was combat5.

Their armies were strong enough to seize one or more enemy cities, but AI left them camping there for centuries. AI should know how strong they have to be to attack the dragon horde.

They always do that - the civs who are at peace with the barbs send armies to sit next to their cities (or at least they used to, not sure if they still do). It's the same behaviour that makes them send woefully inadequate stacks towards your cities too. The real problem with Civ 4's AI (though not an easy one to fix) is its unit tasks assignments - it picks a role for a unit and won't change it unless that role is somehow interrupted. For instance, because the 3 stooges start with Sentry it ALWAYS assigns them as border patrol units, when any human player finishing PotN knows he's got a free army out of it and will use them agressively - they make great Orthus-clobberers and can take cities incredibly easily when they're stil defended by warriors, and are still useful as catapult substitutes and lookouts for any army even after heroes have become your primary attackers in the middle game. I don't know what to do about that - it might be that removing Sentry from them would at least make the AI use them more sensibly. As for the way it sends units after Acheron, that would be much harder to alter.

I suppose it goes like, units->defend, units->reseve/sentry, free units->attack. And the other line room to expand->settlers, barb cities left->attack and at last attack other civs. When AI puts this together it tries to eliminate acheron as barb city however strong it is.

If AI was generally more opportunistic (like humans are), they would attack those poorly defended cities many people leave at "friendly" borders, when waging a war in another part of empire. They should somehow override little positive diplomacy (e.g.+5) when they have a chance to backstab someone. Then they would have less time to camp in vain.

He can do so. The Grigori civ just shouldn't get a happiness boost from it IMO.

Some Grigori text states that the Grigori realm contains lots of immigrants who came to them because they were fed up with the gods. So one could argue besides Cassiel himself there are few people in Grigori lands who aren't agnostic too.

But whatever, that's a matter of opinion.

However, the problem is also that Free Religion is not an option, but the only civic of the Religion category that the Grigori can get boni from. So a multiple religion strategy is not an option, but the only good strategy for the Grigori. Surely you cannot claim that is in the spirit of the Grigori civ?

Hence my proposed change to the Pacifism civic in addition to the suggestions to make religion a more dynamic factor involving an actual choice: counter them actively or tolerate them.
who says cassiels people are all agnostically inclined?

who says cassiels people are all agnostically inclined?

Since religions can spread to Grigori cities they can't all be agnostic. But it is more difficult for a religion to spread to them. And the fact that they can't have a state religion is the defining characteristic for the Grigori.

Since religions can spread to Grigori cities they can't all be agnostic. But it is more difficult for a religion to spread to them. And the fact that they can't have a state religion is the defining characteristic for the Grigori.
yupzorx!.
.

Any thought on reducing the penalty for using death/entropy magic with some civs? I think it's a bit harsh to get a -16 to relations modifier just because I'm trying to build the Tower of Necromancy with Basium. One turn, we're at friendly relations with a defensive pact, not much later, after putting in death and entropy nodes, he's declaring war on me, seems not right. The same goes for many of the other good leaders. Maybe reducing at least by half the penalties might be a good idea? Plus, it might be more balanced if evil civs gave a penalty if you used life/nature magic?

Or make the penalites not stack, just one -4 for you use evil magic whether that's death or death and entropy.

the barb trait seems too crippling for the doviello

i think your problem with playing the doviello was vermillion as the balseraphs :D

SO are there any plans in the works to drastically improve Loki?

i think your problem with playing the doviello was vermillion as the balseraphs :D

hehehehehehe :mischief:

IF Loki worked, he would be bad to the bone, and the Balserahps would rule the builder game

Since religions can spread to Grigori cities they can't all be agnostic. But it is more difficult for a religion to spread to them. And the fact that they can't have a state religion is the defining characteristic for the Grigori.

Is it intended that you should try to get as many religions as possible in your Grigori cities?

I'm trying to play thru all the civs 1 at a time to see how the balance is - so far I have played (on the current version 0.15) all the Good civs, so here is my take on how they played (all games on Prince, Aggressive AI, Permanent Alliances enabled, Standard world, High Sea Level, all victory conditions enabled, Continents):

Bannor: Won around 450 by domination, using Sabithiel. I built 5 cities quickly, built up my military and beat the Calabim down (they only had 2 cities, cut off by me from the rest of the continent). The Elohim decided to attack me while I was consolidating and building up my infrastructure and took one of my cities before I made peace. I researched so that I founded the Order, went on a Crusade and spent around 120 years just fighting until I conquered the whole continent (allying with the Sheiam, who went Order and were then Good like me). I used Flagbearers (one in each stack), but the Demagogs I didn't even try because I didn't like the idea of losing them when I changed from Crusade. (Maybe they could be changed so they are always Enraged and die after they attack instead, to make them something like medieval cruise missiles? Give them some collateral damage as well, tone down their strength and then there'd be a case for using them in bulk to overwhelm the defense like a horde of, well, fanatics.)

Anyway once I crushed my continent I loaded up some Queen o' the Lines with a hero stack and a bunch of national units, and invaded the primitive Khazad, thereby triggering domination. All in all, pretty easy except for the backstabbing Elohim at the beginning.

PROS: Donal Lugh is an all-around good hero to have, especially with the recruiting that let me roll on with my offensives a couple times when usually I'd have to pause to wait for reinforcements to come up and secure my conquests. The strong defense came in handy when I was at war with three different civs at once, as I could hold on two fronts while demolishing my third enemy, ending up defeating my opponents in detail. Of course the only reason I was fighting three civs in the first place was because I was on Crusade and couldn't make peace...

CONS: None really, I enjoyed playing them and think they are an ideal war-mongering choice.


MALAKIM:

Another domination victory, this one near 500. I just slowly oozed my way to first place by chipping away at my neighbors, then overwhelmed them one at a time in set-piece invasions. I went for Runes, got it, and everyone on my continent converted to it, while across the sea the Ljolsfar started Leaves, and the Hippus went Octopus Overlords. So I had time to build up a big tech lead over everyone except my designated alliance partner, and once I had Bambur jacked up I just used him along with the Nilhorn giants (instead of catapults) and the Baron to beat everyone else into jelly. The continent was big enough that as soon as the Kuriotates accepted my perma-alliance, we won domination without ever crossing the sea except on exploration missions. I was helped quite a bit by Orcus ravaging my neighbours, and I killed him with Bambur when he made the mistake of coming to try the same on me, which made Bambur pretty well unstoppable.

PROS: Not much other than being Financial, which along with Runes makes you plenty rich.

CONS: Not fleshed out really yet, so no Cons as yet.


ELOHIM:

Domination around 500 again, using Varn. I went Runes again, built a bunch of Soldiers of Kilmorph and declared war on the Calabim who had just founded Octopus. Somehow they had stacks of Drown already, but luckily I was holding a forested hill on the border while waiting for my giants to come up before invading, so I quickly reoriented and fought defensively until they were exhausted, then counter-attacked and took one city before making peace. I then built craploads of Axes and a Bambur again (Bambur is the shiznit indeed), and cleaned out the Calabim's other three cities. I then went into builder mode until I got Corlindale, allied with the Amurites and proceeded to crush both the Grigori and the Doviello in short order. I wanted to try to get a Tower of Mastery victory because I had plenty of mana nodes and was only missing 4 types after building the Soul Forge, but after I saw how long it would take to build the Rites of Oghma I forgot that notion, built up a huge army and invaded the Clan's lands over the ocean and took a couple cities from the Khazad as well to dominate.

PROS: The Defensive trait more or less saved me, as otherwise the Calabim Drown would've probably taken one or two cities and I would have been out of the game before it really began. Corlindale is not bad, although I certainly would never sacrifice him just to make peace - if you are that badly off you need to resort to this, you are undoubtedly going to lose anyway, so you might as well go down fighting... The spell is a good idea, it's just I doubt anyone would ever use it because losing a hero is such a psychological crusher. Maybe if he just lost all his XP instead?

CONS: Not really fleshed out, so no Cons apply as yet, except that I didn't use the Monks because by the time they were available, I already had plenty of Paramanders - I guess they'd be ok if you were using a religion that didn't have holy warrior types, but then I'd be beelining for iron and making cheap Macemen instead. Maybe if they started with Mobility 1 there'd be a role for them...


LUCHUIRP:

Another domination victory around the early 600's, although I could have finished it much faster - I just wanted to see what the late game Golems were like, because I had never played these guys before, ever. I played as Garrim, and this was by far the easiest game to win. I went Runes yet again, was by the Calabim yet again, and this time I waited until I had Wood Golems, and I just buried them with numbers. Once they were down, I sent Barnaxus up North where the dragon was and had him level up against barbs coming out to raid. After he got to Combat 4, I churned out Iron Golems from my capital and sent good ol' Bambur out in one stack with the Baron, and Typhoid Mary with another stack, and we took out the Bannor with the help of Kuriotates in short order, although Sabby had the Wood Elf and some Druids that were running around taking settlements from the K's until I sent a stack of Iron Golems to end that foolishness - by this time Barny had Combat 5, so my Iron Golems were effectively 18 strength and I didn't even have to bother with sieging, mostly the golems would attack at around 55-60 percent even against dug-in crossbowmen in cities, so I could use the heros just to pick off anyone dumb enough to run around in the open.

As the K-man and I were at around 2200 points when our perma-alliance came thru, and the Grigori were in third with around 1300, the game was more or less already over. I just dawdled around until I got as far as the Bone and Arcane Golems, then filled up some Queens and busted up the Illians for kicks, thereby putting us over the top.

PROS: As long as it levelled up Barny before going to war, even the AI could manage to win wars quickly without much in the way of strategy. These guys get good units, and they get them from start to finish, so this is another fine war-mongering civ. I never made one mage 'cause I figured I wouldn't need them due to my melee units being so overpowering, and I was right.

CONS: Barnaxus is pretty weak so you have to be careful and it takes time to level him up. If you aren't lucky enough to have a barb city near you might lose him to an astute or lucky enemy (I know I'd happily lose a whole stack to kill him if I was on the other side). The Clay Golems (workers) take a long time to build, so you do lag a bit in the very early game if you try to spam cottages. I don't think they would synergize well with Octopus Overlords, although Leaves or the Order might be ok. (Ashen Veil is not an option for anyone that I've found as yet).


KURIOTATES

A cultural win in the early 600's - I dunno if you could pull off a domination win, even with perma-alliances unless you gave all your conquests to your partner, which rather takes all the fun out of it.

I built only my three main cities and no settlements, putting one city due east of my start and another SW of the capital on the ocean. I spent a long time thinking about city placement so that I would get full advantage of the 3 space radius and be able to build really big cities. I was near a river with floodplains on the start, so I moved south two spaces so that I would have SEVEN such floodplains in my hinterlands for the capital, with practically everything else being forest or forested hills. I built my second city between two gold-bearing hills, with lots of forest and hills to the west and south, and plains and desert (to be terraformed and forested later) to the east and north. The last city, on the ocean, was backed with plains and couple hills, with jungle to the south that had dye, rice and reagents.

I figured Leaves was the way to go as I wanted to pump my cities so that they would be utter monsters, and with all those floods nearby my capital I had enough cottages to make founding Leaves first quite easy. My first Scout got lucky, found Animal Husbandry, and got enough XP to get Subdue Animals, and I captured lions, tigers, and even a Bear (once my Scout was upgraded to a Hunter on that last one). So I was able to skip some early defense buildup and put animals as defenders instead, which further accelerated my growth.

I beelined for the Nature techs and changed to Guardian of Nature, after which I had enough forests for happiness that I could just make those cities grow, grow, grow. Just after I made a defensive pact with the Elohim, the Sidar AND the Lanun got into a war with us, but I already had the Baron and Kyra along with the giants, so I held off the Lanun to the North with axemen in the forests while my heroes, and some archers of leaves barely managed to keep out a huge stack of around 15 rangers and Soldiers of Kilmorph that Morgoth had apparently been itching to use on me. He did ravage my whole western kingdom, and he actually was down to fighting my Adepts as defenders when he threw his stack at my city (Kyra and the Baron were both worn down and I had retreated them out of the city to heal, and I had had to use Ravenous Werewolves as stop-gap city defenders along with my archers and a couple hastily redirected axemen and the adepts).

However, he did fail in his effort, and one of my werewolves now had the Orthus Axe he had been using. I killed the remaining Rangers with Kyra and a freshly minted Yvain, and then slaughtered every last one of his invaders with the pumped-up wolves. It was then time for the offensive, and I burnt down his nearest city, after which he sued for peace. I then turned my wolves against the Lanun, took one of their cities as well, made them pay me well to stop attacking, and gave the captured city to the Elohim.

Both the Lanun and the Sidar only had 4 cities each to start, so this put them each at three with nowhere to expand, and they were essentially toothless thereafter. The Infernal were down near the south pole, with the Elohim completely blocking them from me, and the Illians were off on a small continent with the dragon in their jungle. I perma-allied with the Elohim and while the other 4 civs fought amongst each other I grew the cities and pumped out the Great People. I wanted to hold off winning until I made the Gold Dragon, so I didn't touch the culture slider until the end-game and deliberately left the sea-side city languishing in the culture race to do so.

I built Genesis and used my druids to make lots of forests (and eventually Ancient Forests) on grasslands, and my capital at the end of the game had a size of 47, my military city (to the east) was 33, and the seaside city was 32. The capital had enough great people that with the proper civics it was putting out 943 culture points and 174 great people points per turn, every turn, and that was when IT WAS GENERATING SCIENCE, NOT CULTURE!!!!

Anyway, I built the dragon, used him against the barb dragon to level him up a bit, then sent him to run around the Illian continent and raze all their improvements. I was hoping to level him up really high, however, since none of the Illian units were divine (he had no religion at all - I had founded Leaves and the Cult, the Elohim founded the Order, Morgoth founded Runes and eventually Octopus Overlords, and the Infernal founded the Veil - NONE of which ever spread to any of his cities), none of them could resist fear and the Dragon barely ever was successfully attacked. So I eventually got bored, cranked up the culture and put an end to it.

PROS: Early game you can dominate the tech race no problem. The dragon is utterly cool and a great pillager. You can make really big cities. You can get lots and lots of Great People, and build lots of wonders. The best builder civ by far.

CONS: You will lose the tech race starting in the middle of the game and it is hopeless by the end. The dragon is way down the tech tree, so if you go for cultural victory you will never see him unless you deliberately delay your win, and if you are going for a non-cultural win you would be better off with pretty well any other civilization. If you start in a crappy spot, you are pretty well gimped because you need to get your three main cities going quickly to take advantage of your strengths and push out your borders.


OVERALL:

The Luchuirp and the Bannor are both very well thought out and fun to play, although the Luchuirp have a decided edge in power. The Malakim and Elohim are pretty vanilla, and it shows in their gameplay. The Kuriotates are an interesting change and challenge, but you essentially are limited in your victory options with them.

BALANCE SUGGESTIONS:

The Luchuirp need some kind of counter to their golems - maybe an anti-golem promotion available their enemies to give them some kind of chance, kind of like how the vampires can be countered with the Undead-slaying promotion?

Bambur is by far the most useful religious hero - he comes early enough and is strong enough to dominate the middle game, after which the end game becomes moot. Both the OO and the Leaves need to have their early heroes be as good as Bambur and as easily available - maybe Kyra could still be on a horse, but have spells as well as or instead of her withdrawal promotions, because right now she is pretty well useless except as a mobile reserve inside your borders. Saverous, while good, comes long after Bambur has already promoted himself well past Saverous' level, and the AI seems to have some reluctance to build him as well - I didn't see him even once in the five games I played. As far as the early heroes of the Veil and the Order go, again the horsemen are pretty marginally useful, and you have to wait so long to get them that "early" is only that way compared to the extremely late "late" heroes... I'd rather have the cavalry heros all slinging spells, so at least you feel the wait was worth it.

Cavalry overall are relegated to near uselessness - I never build any (except for heroes), and never miss them. The AI likes to use them ineptly to pillage, so that my units can get some easy experience, so I guess it isn't all bad. They'd be far more useful if they got automatic bonuses of one type or another - I was thinking maybe Cover promotions so they could be used against archers, or if they ignored terrain costs they might actually manage to do more than laughable damage to infrastructure.

Rather than a hard limit on the Kuriotates main cities, how about forcing a 1 city - 2 settlement ratio on them? Or make it so that certain techs increase the limit, so maybe they start with 2 cities but have a possible 5 or 6? As it is, they are powerful in the early game but weak after that - while the Bannor and the Luchuirp are powerful all the way thru, which doesn't quite seem right.

The naval component seems kind of neglected - other than Krakens, which are awesome but are rarely seen. Maybe make Queens of the Lines straight warships at a 9 strength and give them Bombard, add Frigates at 7 strength but a couple more speed, and automatic Sentry promotions as scouts and escorts, and bump up the carrying capacity of Galleons to six units like the Queens were. Then add Turtles which can be summoned by Leaves civs and act like strength 6 submarines; make it so you can promote level 5 Drown into Sea Zombies which can walk on the ocean and have 7 strength, or build them by sacrificing any level 5 unit to the sea; Runes civs get Dwarven Submersibles which are essentially faster and weaker subs than Turtles but can carry 1 unit; the Order gets Castles of the Sea which are very slow but fire off Meteors with a 2 range, and the Veil get Dread Noughts which are essentially vortexes which have a 12 strength but are destroyed after they attack.

I know you removed the 4 mana node bonus, but IMO you should instead move that back to 5 nodes. If i really want to get the third rank of spells for free then I can, but it takes an extra one.

Maybe loki could get the extra bonus of being able to do vannilla spy missions, and since he's immortal he could not be stopped, just delayed.

Wow slithy nice post.

The Luchuirp need some kind of counter to their golems - maybe an anti-golem promotion available their enemies to give them some kind of chance, kind of like how the vampires can be countered with the Undead-slaying promotion?

Yeah, I think I will eventually have to fix this by making 5 mini-combat promotions for the golems when Barnaxus gets the combat promotions. So instead of getting +20% from each Barnaxus's promotions they will only get +10%. But Im not ready to do it yet.

Bambur is by far the most useful religious hero - he comes early enough and is strong enough to dominate the middle game, after which the end game becomes moot. Both the OO and the Leaves need to have their early heroes be as good as Bambur and as easily available - maybe Kyra could still be on a horse, but have spells as well as or instead of her withdrawal promotions, because right now she is pretty well useless except as a mobile reserve inside your borders. Saverous, while good, comes long after Bambur has already promoted himself well past Saverous' level, and the AI seems to have some reluctance to build him as well - I didn't see him even once in the five games I played. As far as the early heroes of the Veil and the Order go, again the horsemen are pretty marginally useful, and you have to wait so long to get them that "early" is only that way compared to the extremely late "late" heroes... I'd rather have the cavalry heros all slinging spells, so at least you feel the wait was worth it.

Yeah, Im thinking abotu reducing the research cost on way of the wise and way of the wicked to make the ashen veil and order show up earlier.

Cavalry overall are relegated to near uselessness - I never build any (except for heroes), and never miss them. The AI likes to use them ineptly to pillage, so that my units can get some easy experience, so I guess it isn't all bad. They'd be far more useful if they got automatic bonuses of one type or another - I was thinking maybe Cover promotions so they could be used against archers, or if they ignored terrain costs they might actually manage to do more than laughable damage to infrastructure.

I will be curious to see what your take is on this after your hippus game. In my experience mounted units are useless when you have already outproduced your opponent. When you are fighting a defensive war, or harrasing a more powerful neighbor mounted units become incrediably useful.

And the game isnt build around requiring any type, if you skip archers you will do okay, that doesnt mean archers dont have their use. Just that you were able to win through skill in other areas.

Rather than a hard limit on the Kuriotates main cities, how about forcing a 1 city - 2 settlement ratio on them? Or make it so that certain techs increase the limit, so maybe they start with 2 cities but have a possible 5 or 6? As it is, they are powerful in the early game but weak after that - while the Bannor and the Luchuirp are powerful all the way thru, which doesn't quite seem right.

I dont really want the power curve to be the same for all civs. The city number does change based on the map, but outside of that its a weakness they need to deal with.

The naval component seems kind of neglected - other than Krakens, which are awesome but are rarely seen. Maybe make Queens of the Lines straight warships at a 9 strength and give them Bombard, add Frigates at 7 strength but a couple more speed, and automatic Sentry promotions as scouts and escorts, and bump up the carrying capacity of Galleons to six units like the Queens were. Then add Turtles which can be summoned by Leaves civs and act like strength 6 submarines; make it so you can promote level 5 Drown into Sea Zombies which can walk on the ocean and have 7 strength, or build them by sacrificing any level 5 unit to the sea; Runes civs get Dwarven Submersibles which are essentially faster and weaker subs than Turtles but can carry 1 unit; the Order gets Castles of the Sea which are very slow but fire off Meteors with a 2 range, and the Veil get Dread Noughts which are essentially vortexes which have a 12 strength but are destroyed after they attack.

Yeah, Loki is actually heading design on a naval overhaul and it has some great stuff in it. So expect to see new stuff here.

The naval component seems kind of neglected - other than Krakens, which are awesome but are rarely seen. Maybe make Queens of the Lines straight warships at a 9 strength and give them Bombard, add Frigates at 7 strength but a couple more speed, and automatic Sentry promotions as scouts and escorts, and bump up the carrying capacity of Galleons to six units like the Queens were. Then add Turtles which can be summoned by Leaves civs and act like strength 6 submarines; make it so you can promote level 5 Drown into Sea Zombies which can walk on the ocean and have 7 strength, or build them by sacrificing any level 5 unit to the sea; Runes civs get Dwarven Submersibles which are essentially faster and weaker subs than Turtles but can carry 1 unit; the Order gets Castles of the Sea which are very slow but fire off Meteors with a 2 range, and the Veil get Dread Noughts which are essentially vortexes which have a 12 strength but are destroyed after they attack.
I like some of these ideas alot, especially the naval units for the religions.

Oh, and after reading your post fully, I think you might need to up the difficulty. ;)

I too rarely build cavalry, though I'm going to try using them more soon. I just don't really like chariots or horse archers (themeaticaly) and Knights are pretty far off, so I end up waiting til I need more national units or don't have much else to research. But Knights look so cool.

This is a fairly big and unnecesary change, but I was wondering if you'd want to move one of the Ljo elven leaders over to the Svar elves side? Then they'd each have two, and they could each choose to be neutral or good/evil respectively.
Since it'd be pointless until shadow, and by then things would be farily set in stone, probably no point, but an interesting thought.

IMO the problem with the cavalry branch is that it is a pure military branch, while all other unit branches also give lots of builder benefits on the way. The choice what to go after is quickly made then.

As mana nodes are now availible from the start I suggest (again :) ) to move the free tech from writing to knowledge from the eather.

The main argument for not doing so was that knowledge already does enough as it was, but now it lost one of it's main features.

Flavourwise I think it makes more sense to get a free tech from knowledge - and it would also be cool to grant the first player to discover it one of the four schools of magic (an obvios choice for their free tech.)

had a game with the luchirup and got barnaxus while there where still some barbarians around, i used him to kill as many of the invading barbarians as possible and got him the combat 5 promotion quickly.
that made my golems extremely powerful, barnaxus wasn't of any use though, i mean actively, since he isn't strong enough and he's far to valuable to risk getting him killed.

Imho the Luchirup are too dependent on their hero Barnaxus, he makes a great difference.
Don't get me wrong, i like the idea of that hero very much, its just that if he's not around the golems are quite weak, with him they are extremely strong.

Maybe instead of giving the other golems the combat 1-5 promotions he could give them a percentage of his XP, maybe 10-20%.
and i would give Barnaxus some sort of Immortal promotion, he gets revived in the capital after dying but looses all XP.
It would still be devastating to the Luchirup, since their Golems will loose all their XP, but they have a chance to gain their strenght back.
Maybe the "reborn" Barnaxus could come back with a higher base strenght, if you have access to iron, copper or mithril.

just my thoughts about that particular hero, right now you have pretty much lost if you loose barnaxus, unless you're much stronger than everyone else, and someone might consider using barnaxus to attack with just a 99% chance, without relying on saving/loading, which kinda feels like cheating.

mfg
Mavy

I'm playing Luchuirp right now (who reads rules?) and I was wondering why my Wood Golems were still unable to spend their exp points, yet they went from 0* to 4*. So all ordinary golems are tied to Barnaxus? Hmm, I was already not-so-much-enjoying-the-Luchuirp-experience. It's just not my cup of tea. All those Warriors who leveled up defending the realm in the frantic early days get outsourced for robot worker -- too much like real life. And the robot workers don't level up; a lot of the fun aspects (in my book) are missing. Well, just idle talk; they're just not my cup of tea I guess.

But regardless, there are a couple-three issues I feel are worth mentioning for consideration:

Tech Tree organization: The Luchuirp seemed forced to get a huge number of inventions from diffent trees. Putting the Slinger unit under Archery makes a lot of logical sense, but it also means Dwarven civs have to run up a differnt tech tree early in the game in order to get unit early in the game. That can be prohibitively expensive in the opening game.

The Luchuirp are especially affected, as the Dwarven Slinger is the only upgrade path to preserve all the high-exp Warriors that leveled up against the Barbs. Some thought on the early path is probably worth the time.

The traditional Dwarf/Runes pairing in most games means Dwarves generally spend extra effort building Obelisks or extra Thanes to use as culture bombs. (Culture M80s st least.) The lack of so much as +1 :culture: from Temples of Killmorph is a significant thing, as the Dwarves are pretty scarce in the department of Cultural leaders.

The other two "early" religions give +:culture: from their temples. Veil does not, but Veil is discovered a bit later in the game. In the early game building an Obelisk is a significant investment, in the later game not so much. I expect the Team has thought on this issue already, but I'll pipe up with it anyway.

Tech Tree organization: The Luchuirp seemed forced to get a huge number of inventions from diffent trees. Putting the Slinger unit under Archery makes a lot of logical sense, but it also means Dwarven civs have to run up a differnt tech tree early in the game in order to get unit early in the game. That can be prohibitively expensive in the opening game.
Archery is one tech off of Hunting, which is as useful for Luchuirps as for anyone. But since they don't get any further archers, I'd raise their cost (maybe) and kill their archery range requirement on slingers, and move Velox workshop to something else. (It takes two techs to get to precision, and tha's all it gives them.) This would also be good to give them one more unit that doesn't require a building since otherwise their troops are over-connected to buildings.

While I apprecaite specialties, Must i really follow a regimine? Must i play a certain way or suffer unduely? Perhaps I should suffer some, or struggle in other ways. But to be forced into warfare because of Barny seems odd, thematically and game play wise. I'm not partial to having been told "Play like this or dont play them." THe idea of an additive bonus is great, Barny is a great idea, but should the Luchurip strategy REQUIRE him? Should there not be "other" perhaps less effecient options?
-Qes

The "sameness" thing is a valid concern, IMO. All the eggs in one basket, sort of thing. I'm just interoducing myself to them now, so what do I know? Just to chime in. ;)

Erp, I forgot to mention in my above list...

Fresh off my infamous study :groucho: I could not help but notice cities grow while Mud Golems are built. This allowed me to get my first Cottage operating aroung turn 70. (That's really early.) Mud Golems' 150% building efficiency really throws up the improvments fast. (A Hut game me Mining for free at this early stage-whoo!)

So anyway, early workers+fast building speed ... I see the potential for another realm that jackrabbits out of the gate. Po Ten Shall, Gentle Lurker; I make no claims. The mechanics are vastly different, but with some experience I am afraid it will be possible to think up another sort of economic exploit.

So anyway, early workers+fast building speed ... I see the potential for another realm that jackrabbits out of the gate. Po Ten Shall, Gentle Lurker; I make no claims. The mechanics are vastly different, but with some experience I am afraid it will be possible to think up another sort of economic exploit.
Early workers? They are pretty expensive.

IMO the problem with the cavalry branch is that it is a pure military branch, while all other unit branches also give lots of builder benefits on the way. The choice what to go after is quickly made then.

Considering the imporance of animal power in the pre-coal (non-magic! :p) days it makes a certain sense to add hammer production to cavalry-line techs. Perhaps a Grain Mill building that requires Horses. Or putting a Machinery pre-req in the cavalry line. Just first thoughts there.

I have spent about 6 seconds thinking superficially about this subject, so no predictions here, but this notion has some potential it seems. Not just for the "feel", but to improve the actual game-play experience.

Archery is one tech off of Hunting, which is as useful for Luchuirps as for anyone. But since they don't get any further archers, I'd raise their cost and kill their archery range requirement on slingers, and move Velox workshop to something else. (It takes two techs to get or precision, and tha's all it gives them.) This would also be good to give them one more unit that doesn't require a building since otherwise their troops are over-connected to buildings.

Sure Hunting is useful ... but useful takes a back seat to essential, life-saving, and realm-defining. In my extensive experience (1 game played oddly) I did take Archery ... but by the time I GOT it and built an Archery Range, most of my starting Warriors had sacrificed their lives holding off the attackers coming after me. (Clan of Embers declared on me from the NW about 3 turns before Orthus led a new surge of Barbarians out of Aecheron's city tothe SW.) That 100+exp Warrior, dead, all the 50+ ones, dead, just one 20+ Warrior left alive, and a bunch of hastilly-built militia. :cry: But their deaths were purchased dearly; Orthus died on his second attempt to take my city! :salute: Turns out I never did build that Archery Range.

Later start to the invention + significant invention time + significant building construction time = not particularly useful

(So your idea to not need the Archery Range sounds pretty good! The other aspects are outta my knowledge range so far. ;) )

I'm just throwing the thought out there, get it rattling in some brains. I'm not saying anything specific needs be done.

Early workers? They are pretty expensive.

They are expensive, but only 133% the cost of a normal worker. And since a 'normal' worker puts the shutdown on city population growth, it's cost must be measured in something besides pure hammers. That is, for cities that are not yet happycapped. That's how they can get an early worker. They can start construction of one while the city is still size 1 or 2 and that will not stymie population growth. In this way of looking at things, the Mud Golem does not "cost" any more than the normal Worker, but it does work 50% faster. Personally, I think the Mud Golem is a bargain at the current price. :)

Like I said, I am not convinced this approach does not come with significant tradeoffs ... just like a good strategy game should offer ... but I see potential for an exploit.

Yeah, I think I will eventually have to fix this by making 5 mini-combat promotions for the golems when Barnaxus gets the combat promotions. So instead of getting +20% from each Barnaxus's promotions they will only get +10%. But Im not ready to do it yet.

That would help indeed. Although it might be easier just to make them "Arcane" and "Divine" (powered by the gods?) so you could easily make golem-killing units, if the AI is smart enough to know to do this.

Yeah, Im thinking abotu reducing the research cost on way of the wise and way of the wicked to make the ashen veil and order show up earlier.

That would help, but the heroes still wouldn't match up to Bambur. I actually think the Leaves is the best religion, just for Guardian of Nature which essentially lets you ignore happiness and health for a good long while, but Bambur is such a military advantage that I go Runes 2 out of 3 games just because I know I can mop up 1 or 2 civs by relying on him. I love that little guy!

I will be curious to see what your take is on this after your hippus game. In my experience mounted units are useless when you have already outproduced your opponent. When you are fighting a defensive war, or harrasing a more powerful neighbor mounted units become incrediably useful.

And the game isnt build around requiring any type, if you skip archers you will do okay, that doesnt mean archers dont have their use. Just that you were able to win through skill in other areas.

Actually I generally do skip archers as well unless I play Leaves, and then they are just a stop-gap until I can build Axemen. The melee units are good at defense AND offense, so why build defensive specialists that can't switch roles effectively?

That could be a play-style preference on my part, but the problem I've always seen with city-defender promotions is that you actually have to be attacked to level up these units enough to make them really useful - dual-role units you can use to pick off raiders and get promos, or you can send them back to your cities as defenders after seasoning while rotating out your garrisons to get some combat experience in their turn. Relying on my enemies to siege my cities doesn't seem an optimal strategy to me.

Essentially the same problem comes with the mounted units - because they are weaker than melee units, you try to avoid battle with them, but if you avoid battle, you stay weak. If you are fighting defensively, heroes allied with Priests are far better than horsemen (with Mobility and a couple combat promotions any Priest is a more than a match even for the Tier 3 horse units - and the Priests don't have to fight to get these promotions, so it is trivial to have some in reserve), and as far as pillaging goes a stack of four melee units that mostly stick to rugged terrain will outperform any dozen cavalrymen.

In vanilla Civ the cavalry units rule because they are powerful enough to make their speed useful in that you can overwhelm a city before it can be reinforced by bringing enough of them - it doesn't make sense here, because being weaker than melee units you would need so many that it would be horribly wasteful and a sure path to defeat.
However, in reality cavalry weren't all that useful in taking cities so it does make logical sense, however in reality cavalry also had other roles that can't really be modelled that well on a strategic level - you can't cut off your enemy's supply routes, you can't break his morale by charging in from the flank, you don't need to force him to stand and give battle, there aren't any poorly trained and equipped levies that you can overrun and panic, etc.

The one thing you CAN do is pillage with them, but since they don't have the ability to run away if attacked (as they could historically unless you brought cavalry of your own or managed to get them trapped against rough terrain) they are just not worth the effort - if you are going to have to stand and fight, it makes sense to bring your best fighters, 'cause all your mobility does is move you into killing range of your opponent more quickly.

One further idea I had was to give cavalry +100% plains defensive/offensive bonuses, but since they don't get defensive bonuses at all I don't know if that's even possible. That way, they would rule the open spaces, as is proper, but once in rough terrain they would be vulnerable, as is also proper. Then it would be hard to dislodge raiders without cavalry of your own, thereby giving them an essential role you'd ignore at peril.

I dont really want the power curve to be the same for all civs. The city number does change based on the map, but outside of that its a weakness they need to deal with.

I just don't think their advantage lasts long enough or is strong enough to make them competitive. I've noticed that when they are run by the AI, they are almost always despised by the other AI civs, presumably because they are militarily the weakest, and they always end up getting conquered unless I intervene and prop them up (which I often do, just because I love the underdog). This, to me, shows that they just don't have enough pluses to overcome their crippling deficiency.

The problem is that you can't really USE your period of dominance for anything - what is the point of conquering a couple neighbors when it doesn't really add anything to your power? Why build settlements everywhere when all they do is dilute your military and impose huge costs for a few resources that you don't really need if you just embrace Leaves and use that to keep your people happy? Generally an early power boost should set you up to overcome your later game weakness, but it doesn't matter what you do with the Kuriotates, you are going to get owned later regardless.

One thing I thought of that might help was to make their Dragon grow during the game - maybe you could get him early (like with Ancient Chants) as a strength 4 unit, have him upgrade to strength 7 with Cult of the Dragon, push him to 12 when you get Righteousness, and bring him to 22 when you get to the current enabling tech. Then he'd be a difference maker that could make them competitive.



Yeah, Loki is actually heading design on a naval overhaul and it has some great stuff in it. So expect to see new stuff here.

Awesome.

I like some of these ideas alot, especially the naval units for the religions.

Oh, and after reading your post fully, I think you might need to up the difficulty. ;)

Actually I normally play on Monarch, but I wanted to be sure I played each civ to victory so I could give a fair comparison of how they played thru the whole game. Even so, I managed to lose as the Kuriotates the first time I tried them, because there wasn't room to build 3 decent cities where I started. I ended up putting one on the other side of the Bannor, who then (despite our Pleased relations) decided to attack me for no reason and took that third city despite my 40 XP bear with the Orthus Axe who was defending it along with a couple lions and a warrior. After that it was all over but the crying... which, however, reminds me that even with Aggressive AI checked off, there aren't nearly enough wars going on, this attack to the contrary. I'd have a lot harder time winning if the AIs absorbed the weak sisters into their empires so that I wasn't always at or near the top thru the whole game.

I'm trying to play thru all the civs 1 at a time to see how the balance is - so far I have played (on the current version 0.15) all the Good civs, so here is my take on how they played (all games on Prince, Aggressive AI, Permanent Alliances enabled, Standard world, High Sea Level, all victory conditions enabled, Continents):

Bannor: Won around 450 by domination, using Sabithiel. I built 5 cities quickly, built up my military and beat the Calabim down (they only had 2 cities, cut off by me from the rest of the continent). The Elohim decided to attack me while I was consolidating and building up my infrastructure and took one of my cities before I made peace. I researched so that I founded the Order, went on a Crusade and spent around 120 years just fighting until I conquered the whole continent (allying with the Sheiam, who went Order and were then Good like me). I used Flagbearers (one in each stack), but the Demagogs I didn't even try because I didn't like the idea of losing them when I changed from Crusade. (Maybe they could be changed so they are always Enraged and die after they attack instead, to make them something like medieval cruise missiles? Give them some collateral damage as well, tone down their strength and then there'd be a case for using them in bulk to overwhelm the defense like a horde of, well, fanatics.)

Anyway once I crushed my continent I loaded up some Queen o' the Lines with a hero stack and a bunch of national units, and invaded the primitive Khazad, thereby triggering domination. All in all, pretty easy except for the backstabbing Elohim at the beginning.

PROS: Donal Lugh is an all-around good hero to have, especially with the recruiting that let me roll on with my offensives a couple times when usually I'd have to pause to wait for reinforcements to come up and secure my conquests. The strong defense came in handy when I was at war with three different civs at once, as I could hold on two fronts while demolishing my third enemy, ending up defeating my opponents in detail. Of course the only reason I was fighting three civs in the first place was because I was on Crusade and couldn't make peace...

CONS: None really, I enjoyed playing them and think they are an ideal war-mongering choice.


MALAKIM:

Another domination victory, this one near 500. I just slowly oozed my way to first place by chipping away at my neighbors, then overwhelmed them one at a time in set-piece invasions. I went for Runes, got it, and everyone on my continent converted to it, while across the sea the Ljolsfar started Leaves, and the Hippus went Octopus Overlords. So I had time to build up a big tech lead over everyone except my designated alliance partner, and once I had Bambur jacked up I just used him along with the Nilhorn giants (instead of catapults) and the Baron to beat everyone else into jelly. The continent was big enough that as soon as the Kuriotates accepted my perma-alliance, we won domination without ever crossing the sea except on exploration missions. I was helped quite a bit by Orcus ravaging my neighbours, and I killed him with Bambur when he made the mistake of coming to try the same on me, which made Bambur pretty well unstoppable.

PROS: Not much other than being Financial, which along with Runes makes you plenty rich.

CONS: Not fleshed out really yet, so no Cons as yet.


ELOHIM:

Domination around 500 again, using Varn. I went Runes again, built a bunch of Soldiers of Kilmorph and declared war on the Calabim who had just founded Octopus. Somehow they had stacks of Drown already, but luckily I was holding a forested hill on the border while waiting for my giants to come up before invading, so I quickly reoriented and fought defensively until they were exhausted, then counter-attacked and took one city before making peace. I then built craploads of Axes and a Bambur again (Bambur is the shiznit indeed), and cleaned out the Calabim's other three cities. I then went into builder mode until I got Corlindale, allied with the Amurites and proceeded to crush both the Grigori and the Doviello in short order. I wanted to try to get a Tower of Mastery victory because I had plenty of mana nodes and was only missing 4 types after building the Soul Forge, but after I saw how long it would take to build the Rites of Oghma I forgot that notion, built up a huge army and invaded the Clan's lands over the ocean and took a couple cities from the Khazad as well to dominate.

PROS: The Defensive trait more or less saved me, as otherwise the Calabim Drown would've probably taken one or two cities and I would have been out of the game before it really began. Corlindale is not bad, although I certainly would never sacrifice him just to make peace - if you are that badly off you need to resort to this, you are undoubtedly going to lose anyway, so you might as well go down fighting... The spell is a good idea, it's just I doubt anyone would ever use it because losing a hero is such a psychological crusher. Maybe if he just lost all his XP instead?

CONS: Not really fleshed out, so no Cons apply as yet, except that I didn't use the Monks because by the time they were available, I already had plenty of Paramanders - I guess they'd be ok if you were using a religion that didn't have holy warrior types, but then I'd be beelining for iron and making cheap Macemen instead. Maybe if they started with Mobility 1 there'd be a role for them...


LUCHUIRP:

Another domination victory around the early 600's, although I could have finished it much faster - I just wanted to see what the late game Golems were like, because I had never played these guys before, ever. I played as Garrim, and this was by far the easiest game to win. I went Runes yet again, was by the Calabim yet again, and this time I waited until I had Wood Golems, and I just buried them with numbers. Once they were down, I sent Barnaxus up North where the dragon was and had him level up against barbs coming out to raid. After he got to Combat 4, I churned out Iron Golems from my capital and sent good ol' Bambur out in one stack with the Baron, and Typhoid Mary with another stack, and we took out the Bannor with the help of Kuriotates in short order, although Sabby had the Wood Elf and some Druids that were running around taking settlements from the K's until I sent a stack of Iron Golems to end that foolishness - by this time Barny had Combat 5, so my Iron Golems were effectively 18 strength and I didn't even have to bother with sieging, mostly the golems would attack at around 55-60 percent even against dug-in crossbowmen in cities, so I could use the heros just to pick off anyone dumb enough to run around in the open.

As the K-man and I were at around 2200 points when our perma-alliance came thru, and the Grigori were in third with around 1300, the game was more or less already over. I just dawdled around until I got as far as the Bone and Arcane Golems, then filled up some Queens and busted up the Illians for kicks, thereby putting us over the top.

PROS: As long as it levelled up Barny before going to war, even the AI could manage to win wars quickly without much in the way of strategy. These guys get good units, and they get them from start to finish, so this is another fine war-mongering civ. I never made one mage 'cause I figured I wouldn't need them due to my melee units being so overpowering, and I was right.

CONS: Barnaxus is pretty weak so you have to be careful and it takes time to level him up. If you aren't lucky enough to have a barb city near you might lose him to an astute or lucky enemy (I know I'd happily lose a whole stack to kill him if I was on the other side). The Clay Golems (workers) take a long time to build, so you do lag a bit in the very early game if you try to spam cottages. I don't think they would synergize well with Octopus Overlords, although Leaves or the Order might be ok. (Ashen Veil is not an option for anyone that I've found as yet).


KURIOTATES

A cultural win in the early 600's - I dunno if you could pull off a domination win, even with perma-alliances unless you gave all your conquests to your partner, which rather takes all the fun out of it.

I built only my three main cities and no settlements, putting one city due east of my start and another SW of the capital on the ocean. I spent a long time thinking about city placement so that I would get full advantage of the 3 space radius and be able to build really big cities. I was near a river with floodplains on the start, so I moved south two spaces so that I would have SEVEN such floodplains in my hinterlands for the capital, with practically everything else being forest or forested hills. I built my second city between two gold-bearing hills, with lots of forest and hills to the west and south, and plains and desert (to be terraformed and forested later) to the east and north. The last city, on the ocean, was backed with plains and couple hills, with jungle to the south that had dye, rice and reagents.

I figured Leaves was the way to go as I wanted to pump my cities so that they would be utter monsters, and with all those floods nearby my capital I had enough cottages to make founding Leaves first quite easy. My first Scout got lucky, found Animal Husbandry, and got enough XP to get Subdue Animals, and I captured lions, tigers, and even a Bear (once my Scout was upgraded to a Hunter on that last one). So I was able to skip some early defense buildup and put animals as defenders instead, which further accelerated my growth.

I beelined for the Nature techs and changed to Guardian of Nature, after which I had enough forests for happiness that I could just make those cities grow, grow, grow. Just after I made a defensive pact with the Elohim, the Sidar AND the Lanun got into a war with us, but I already had the Baron and Kyra along with the giants, so I held off the Lanun to the North with axemen in the forests while my heroes, and some archers of leaves barely managed to keep out a huge stack of around 15 rangers and Soldiers of Kilmorph that Morgoth had apparently been itching to use on me. He did ravage my whole western kingdom, and he actually was down to fighting my Adepts as defenders when he threw his stack at my city (Kyra and the Baron were both worn down and I had retreated them out of the city to heal, and I had had to use Ravenous Werewolves as stop-gap city defenders along with my archers and a couple hastily redirected axemen and the adepts).

However, he did fail in his effort, and one of my werewolves now had the Orthus Axe he had been using. I killed the remaining Rangers with Kyra and a freshly minted Yvain, and then slaughtered every last one of his invaders with the pumped-up wolves. It was then time for the offensive, and I burnt down his nearest city, after which he sued for peace. I then turned my wolves against the Lanun, took one of their cities as well, made them pay me well to stop attacking, and gave the captured city to the Elohim.

Both the Lanun and the Sidar only had 4 cities each to start, so this put them each at three with nowhere to expand, and they were essentially toothless thereafter. The Infernal were down near the south pole, with the Elohim completely blocking them from me, and the Illians were off on a small continent with the dragon in their jungle. I perma-allied with the Elohim and while the other 4 civs fought amongst each other I grew the cities and pumped out the Great People. I wanted to hold off winning until I made the Gold Dragon, so I didn't touch the culture slider until the end-game and deliberately left the sea-side city languishing in the culture race to do so.

I built Genesis and used my druids to make lots of forests (and eventually Ancient Forests) on grasslands, and my capital at the end of the game had a size of 47, my military city (to the east) was 33, and the seaside city was 32. The capital had enough great people that with the proper civics it was putting out 943 culture points and 174 great people points per turn, every turn, and that was when IT WAS GENERATING SCIENCE, NOT CULTURE!!!!

Anyway, I built the dragon, used him against the barb dragon to level him up a bit, then sent him to run around the Illian continent and raze all their improvements. I was hoping to level him up really high, however, since none of the Illian units were divine (he had no religion at all - I had founded Leaves and the Cult, the Elohim founded the Order, Morgoth founded Runes and eventually Octopus Overlords, and the Infernal founded the Veil - NONE of which ever spread to any of his cities), none of them could resist fear and the Dragon barely ever was successfully attacked. So I eventually got bored, cranked up the culture and put an end to it.

PROS: Early game you can dominate the tech race no problem. The dragon is utterly cool and a great pillager. You can make really big cities. You can get lots and lots of Great People, and build lots of wonders. The best builder civ by far.

CONS: You will lose the tech race starting in the middle of the game and it is hopeless by the end. The dragon is way down the tech tree, so if you go for cultural victory you will never see him unless you deliberately delay your win, and if you are going for a non-cultural win you would be better off with pretty well any other civilization. If you start in a crappy spot, you are pretty well gimped because you need to get your three main cities going quickly to take advantage of your strengths and push out your borders.


OVERALL:

The Luchuirp and the Bannor are both very well thought out and fun to play, although the Luchuirp have a decided edge in power. The Malakim and Elohim are pretty vanilla, and it shows in their gameplay. The Kuriotates are an interesting change and challenge, but you essentially are limited in your victory options with them.

BALANCE SUGGESTIONS:

The Luchuirp need some kind of counter to their golems - maybe an anti-golem promotion available their enemies to give them some kind of chance, kind of like how the vampires can be countered with the Undead-slaying promotion?

Bambur is by far the most useful religious hero - he comes early enough and is strong enough to dominate the middle game, after which the end game becomes moot. Both the OO and the Leaves need to have their early heroes be as good as Bambur and as easily available - maybe Kyra could still be on a horse, but have spells as well as or instead of her withdrawal promotions, because right now she is pretty well useless except as a mobile reserve inside your borders. Saverous, while good, comes long after Bambur has already promoted himself well past Saverous' level, and the AI seems to have some reluctance to build him as well - I didn't see him even once in the five games I played. As far as the early heroes of the Veil and the Order go, again the horsemen are pretty marginally useful, and you have to wait so long to get them that "early" is only that way compared to the extremely late "late" heroes... I'd rather have the cavalry heros all slinging spells, so at least you feel the wait was worth it.

Cavalry overall are relegated to near uselessness - I never build any (except for heroes), and never miss them. The AI likes to use them ineptly to pillage, so that my units can get some easy experience, so I guess it isn't all bad. They'd be far more useful if they got automatic bonuses of one type or another - I was thinking maybe Cover promotions so they could be used against archers, or if they ignored terrain costs they might actually manage to do more than laughable damage to infrastructure.

Rather than a hard limit on the Kuriotates main cities, how about forcing a 1 city - 2 settlement ratio on them? Or make it so that certain techs increase the limit, so maybe they start with 2 cities but have a possible 5 or 6? As it is, they are powerful in the early game but weak after that - while the Bannor and the Luchuirp are powerful all the way thru, which doesn't quite seem right.

The naval component seems kind of neglected - other than Krakens, which are awesome but are rarely seen. Maybe make Queens of the Lines straight warships at a 9 strength and give them Bombard, add Frigates at 7 strength but a couple more speed, and automatic Sentry promotions as scouts and escorts, and bump up the carrying capacity of Galleons to six units like the Queens were. Then add Turtles which can be summoned by Leaves civs and act like strength 6 submarines; make it so you can promote level 5 Drown into Sea Zombies which can walk on the ocean and have 7 strength, or build them by sacrificing any level 5 unit to the sea; Runes civs get Dwarven Submersibles which are essentially faster and weaker subs than Turtles but can carry 1 unit; the Order gets Castles of the Sea which are very slow but fire off Meteors with a 2 range, and the Veil get Dread Noughts which are essentially vortexes which have a 12 strength but are destroyed after they attack.

I think your right about the kuriotates they do need a late game boost of some kind. I also think they need more flavor units. I find them kind of boring to play because of their lack of civ specific choices.

I had noticed the hatred AIs tend to hold towards Cardith too, I think it may have to do with larger culture equals more close borders penalties, but the weaker military could have to do with it more.

I just played a MP game, and got totally wrecked by a Nightmare rush by the Sheiam. I was 1 turn from vampires when my capital was destroyed, but beside the point. Whats their weakness anyhow? They can be spawned 8 tiles from your city basically. o.O

I Know I am a FfH newb, but what is the best defense against them? If I would have had better defense (I was Calabim with leaves as religion, and was in a builder mode, should have concentrated more on protection I know...).

If you manage to tech to Summoning yourself, you can build rings of warding, destroying 40% of summoned units that attack cities with them. Otherwise, stacks of highly promoted units with bonuses against demons is likely the best counter to nightmares.

Ah ring of warding, didnt know about that...
How do you get demon slayer? That isnt available from the start is it?


And on another point, what was the reasoning with nerfing Morois? Now they are booring and bland.

demon slaying comes from way of the wise, iirc.

Gah! Please please please don't quote an entire 2-screen post to write 2 lines underneath! It angries up my blood! :P

Burning Blood was removed from the Moroi because giving it to them required the Divine promotion, which gave access to a whole heap of spells for vampires and vampire lords that shouldn't be available.

Burning Blood was removed from the Moroi because giving it to them required the Divine promotion, which gave access to a whole heap of spells for vampires and vampire lords that shouldn't be available.

SO can they create a new Moroi only promotion with the same effects?

Good question. Best solution, I'd think, would be to remove the Divine promotion when upgrading the Moroi, in a fashion similar to that used when Ravenous werewolves become Blooded, and lose their Enraged promotion.

In the department of tweaking, you might want to consider keeping the Dungeon at 20% maintenence reduction, bumping the Courthouses up to 45%, and slipping the Basillica down to 35%. That would still allow Order realms to achive 100% reduction, without changing the Courthouse much. As it is one of the key buildings for the generic Organized trait, reducing the Courthouse affects Organized realms a bit more than that others.

20% : 35% : 45% is also roughly the 1:2:3 ratio. So a Courthouse alone is almost 1/2 reduction. A Courthouse and a Dungeon together is roughly 2/3s reduction. And a Courthouse+Dungeon (available to all) is roughly twice as effective as a Basilica alone (religion-specific realms).

I realize this is a small change. Just throwin it out there. File it under 'possible fine-tunings' :)

I have found that in nearly every game that the Luichurp are in they have an extremley small empire and are on the bottom of the pile in every respect. Is this a problem with the civ or a coincidence?

Coincidence. It's generally tied to how high-leveled they can get Barnaxus, and how long he stays alive.

probably symptomatic of your game settings, what settings do you play? ofr instance, if you play smaller maps with more civs, creative trait leaders really shine because theyre better at land grabbing, and such. settings can play a big role and many players use similar settings in all their games.

That might be it. I usually play standard (all my comp can handle well) and fractal.

Archery is one tech off of Hunting, which is as useful for Luchuirps as for anyone. But since they don't get any further archers, I'd raise their cost (maybe) and kill their archery range requirement on slingers, and move Velox workshop to something else. (It takes two techs to get to precision, and tha's all it gives them.) This would also be good to give them one more unit that doesn't require a building since otherwise their troops are over-connected to buildings.

Now that I've played more of my game, I DO underastand some of what you're saying. I haven't gotten to the Velox Workshop ... ah that's their version of the Weaponsmith or Armorer, yes? ... anyway, I didn't get that far, and I'm no sure I want to run through to the end of this game.

It started off great. I got a great start, then it sputtered, then I got my feet under me, almost, when I saw a largish stack of Clan too close to my border and too far from home. I ran my warriors over there and suer enough, Clan declared on me. As my reserves arrived at teh hot LZ, Orthus appreared right where my reserves deployed from. So they countermarched back leaving a warrior and a Lion to defend the other city. Basically, I had to hold defend my #2 overall city against three Orthus attacks, him STR6 5* w/Axe, and me with STR 2 Warriors and my best unit wounded for the first two rounds of combat. If I held him for three turns, I would be able to ean enough gold aftwer a few turns 0% R&D to rush Bambur. If I lost the first three battles, well, I had only three Warriors available >> Game over man. Orthus died on his second attack. :D And the city facing the Clan almost held. In fact, it did hold against the Clan. But there was a Barbarian SPearman tagging along. Boom went the city, and then my 'pal' Bannor came in to plant his own cities on 'my' area. We fought some more, by which time my experienced warriors were dead, but Wood Golum #1 had deployed and fought. I made peace with the Clan, by now, on the opposite side of Bannor.

So I was left with 5 cities. My army from that point out consited of roughly 1 Warior / city owned, plus Braxas (also rushed during the war) and Bambur with Orthus' Axe. I used my Wood Golom plus a brand-new one on Aecheron to soften him up, then killed him in a 100% attack with Bambur. I was exploiting all the land this opened up when good-pal Varn asked for help against his war enemy Hippus. Going to war with Hippus is not a yes/no question but a when question, so I declared. The Wood Golom had been replaced and a new one en route to the front. Hippus released his raiders, they blasted a new city of mine and razed a bunch of stuff. But then they were dead and my heroes and Wood Goloms methodically captured the entire Hippus empire. So I went from a small realm with a shakey economy, to a "doublewin" strategic situation, all because we followed in the wake of one uber-unit that could not lose, plus an increasing swarm of goloms that were "only" 99.9% killers (Baraxas and his kindling kindred.) I mean, at one point the two hero units were the only units I had in the field, and only my capitol produced hammers well. I went from that past Orthus past Aecheron, ate up Hippus, and took first place in size. It was all on the back of my heroes. My economy was poorly developed.

But after ingesting this massive empire, and leacing every city garrisoned with whatever unit we could find, I could not bear the thought of garrisonning this behemoth. I had one city that could make Wood Goloms, one that could make Adepts, one that could (but hadn't) made siege equipment, and none that could make Slingers. (Lots of Temples though.) I didn't even have 1 Warrior/city at this point. The thought of building Wood Golom for each city made me just call the game a win. If Aecheron and Hippus couldn't stop me at 5 cities, no one was stopping me at the 16 or 18 I had by then.

Its a real interesting concept. But I think Kael's plan to dial back the Golom power some is needed. And I agreee now 100% with the idea to make Slingers buildable anywhere. The Lurchurip need some love in the flexibiity department.

I'll also run up the flagpole the idea of scrapping Wood Goloms and giving the Lurcuirp Axemen. I guess making Slingers buildable everywhere would let them upgrade their Warriors to something else. But Axemen are useable for more than city defense ... I don't know, seems like it might give them flexibility in the early/mid game. Give them more breathing room before they transition to a Golom army, and same for their opponents. :)

I'd also consider toning down Bambur by a STR point. He's a one-Dwarf nation-wrecking machine! (Which is cool, if that nation is packed gulla Elfs :evil:)

Bambour is basically a super-unit for a large portion of the game. I love that little guy!

That could be a play-style preference on my part, but the problem I've always seen with city-defender promotions is that you actually have to be attacked to level up these units enough to make them really useful - dual-role units you can use to pick off raiders and get promos, or you can send them back to your cities as defenders after seasoning while rotating out your garrisons to get some combat experience in their turn. Relying on my enemies to siege my cities doesn't seem an optimal strategy to me.

Essentially the same problem comes with the mounted units - because they are weaker than melee units, you try to avoid battle with them, but if you avoid battle, you stay weak. If you are fighting defensively, heroes allied with Priests are far better than horsemen (with Mobility and a couple combat promotions any Priest is a more than a match even for the Tier 3 horse units - and the Priests don't have to fight to get these promotions, so it is trivial to have some in reserve), and as far as pillaging goes a stack of four melee units that mostly stick to rugged terrain will outperform any dozen cavalrymen.

In vanilla Civ the cavalry units rule because they are powerful enough to make their speed useful in that you can overwhelm a city before it can be reinforced by bringing enough of them - it doesn't make sense here, because being weaker than melee units you would need so many that it would be horribly wasteful and a sure path to defeat.

However, in reality cavalry weren't all that useful in taking cities so it does make logical sense, however in reality cavalry also had other roles that can't really be modelled that well on a strategic level - you can't cut off your enemy's supply routes, you can't break his morale by charging in from the flank, you don't need to force him to stand and give battle, there aren't any poorly trained and equipped levies that you can overrun and panic, etc.

The one thing you CAN do is pillage with them, but since they don't have the ability to run away if attacked (as they could historically unless you brought cavalry of your own or managed to get them trapped against rough terrain) they are just not worth the effort - if you are going to have to stand and fight, it makes sense to bring your best fighters, 'cause all your mobility does is move you into killing range of your opponent more quickly.

One further idea I had was to give cavalry +100% plains defensive/offensive bonuses, but since they don't get defensive bonuses at all I don't know if that's even possible. That way, they would rule the open spaces, as is proper, but once in rough terrain they would be vulnerable, as is also proper. Then it would be hard to dislodge raiders without cavalry of your own, thereby giving them an essential role you'd ignore at peril.


Aside on the units with city defender. I like these units as cost-effective garrison units. In vanilla civ, you could put fill rearward city garrisoms with an old Warrior if you still had any lying round. But in FfH, there is the possibility a Shadow will come along and kill that Warrior and that city. (At least, human players will do that.) But even one Longbowman with City Defender 1 and some tall walls will make such attacks dicy.

I liked a lot of your comments on cavalry and they sparked a thought. In one of my games I noticed that occasionally a unit would refuse to attack Aecheron because it was 'feared' You probably see where this is going. How about giving certain mounted units the "Refuse Combat" promotion. It would act like the Fear spell ... when it triggered it would force the attacker into a Withdrawal action. The odds of triggering Refuse Combat would differ from Fear, but the function would be the same. It should trigger reliably against foot units, well against 'militia-grade' mounted, and work only rarely (if at all) against attacking units whch also posess Refuse Combat.

This would allow a mounted unit to potentially avoid any number of combats in a round without having to surrender its tile. Sounds like a screening force, maybe? But if a mounted unit is in the same tile with a non-mounted unit, and they come under attack, the odds are the foot unit would defend first. So the "Refuse Combat" ability would come into play only mounted units were defending that tile. (Or the other units in teh tile are weak.) (That is, you could not make a slow-plodding invasion force "invulnerable" by escorting them with several mounted units all spamming "Fear" on any defender sent out to intercept.)

Refuse Combat could also be given to units presumed to be a personality and accopaning small bodyguard ... Adepts, Zealots, etc. They'd probably be riding personal mounts, role-playing concept there. So maybe the concept would work with them too. ATDTWISISBD.

I don't know the limitations to programing situation aspects ... affecting the odds depending on terrain (no refuseing combat if you are in a city!) or the presence of friendly mon-mounted units in the tile. If possible, certain situational modifications could be included.

Think this might fill what feels missing in your mounted unit experience?

Bambour is basically a super-unit for a large portion of the game. I love that little guy!

Bambour goes where Bambur wants!

0.15 Patch "e":

1. Fixed some of Arendel's diplomacy tags.
2. Added a Eurabatres pedia entry written by Wilboman.
3. It now costs 135 gold to upgrade a Warrior to a Drown.




should'nt this be scaled be playing speed?

3. It now costs 135 gold to upgrade a Warrior to a Drown.

Does this mean the drown ability is gone?

It should be remembered that an undead unit is less powerful than a living unit because 1) they can't keep citizens in a city happy with their protection and 2) opponents can give the undead slaying promotion to hurt them. However are they affected by other characters' (e.g. Archeron's) fear?


Deathling it was a pretty big exploit being able to produce Drown for the cost of a warrior! :D

This is not a balance reccomendation, but it might help with future balance tweaks in the combat portion. Has the Design Team considered doubling the base STR value of every unit in th e game? This would let y'all 'fine-tune' unit values twice as finely.

Note that I assume the combat system treats a 30STR vs 20STR battle the same a a !5 vs 10. Both are 3:2 odds in the favor of the attacker. I assume each battle would have the same odds of victory. If the game does NOT work like that, then this idea cannot be used.

Let's take my first-impression thought to reduce Bambur's base STR from 7 to 6. That might be too big a change. But if Scouts were 2 STR, Warriors 4, Axemen 8, and Bambur was 14, you could tweak Bambur down to 13. You could make smaller changes when playtesting calls for it. And the idea mightbe used to smoothen the transitions as more powerful units come into the field.

(I am not suggesting this to try to make it easier to change Bambur.)

Of course, this wold require remendous busy-work. All the databases would have to be checked and double-checked. Or at least I assume. :)

Just throwin it out there.

Imagine The Mithril Golem.... 80 str ! LOL ! w00t i love it

The last thought and then I will get on to playing the new patch and experiencing a new FfH Civilization. :drool:

As I play these game I notice I have a lot of fun in the begining. Well, not the absolute begining, when you are hitting End Turn 20 times in a row, but while your realm is still smaller than most of the AI civs. Then eventually one of the AI civs attacks you, or pisses you off, or otherwise calls upon itself Operation Regime Change. You go to war.

Often times this results in the player ripping off a few AI cities and adding them to the empire. Sometimes, quite a few cities. Usually the war comes to an end. The formerly big AI realm is now reduced to a rump empire. The player's empire is now 50% or 100% bigger. You were once surrounded by 300lb gorrillas, now you are a 400lb gorilla.

This is all fine and good and it is, after all, what the game is about. :goodjob:

But when it happens early on, all those neat end-game tech just don't see the light of day. :cry:

The opportunity is too tempting (for me at least) to reduce any other remotely threatening Civ to rump status. Then you're stuck with a 700 lb gorrila of an empire, and it's just a matter of you choosing which type ov victory to pursue. (I upped my difficulty setting when starting 0.15, and I guess I should try a different game speed. I'm sure there's a way to get closer to the 'sweet spot'. That will help, but the same basic dynamic will still exist.)

Soooo I was thinking, is there a way to design a bit more "comeback-ness" into AI realms? This is what I came up with:

1) Significantly higher defense bonuses for defending a city. I don't want to throw out specific numbers, but to give an idea of what I mean ... you know how you see a lot of '+25%" defensive values on your early-era maps? I'm thinking you should probably be seeing three-digit percentage vaues instead. At least after some Palisades and/or Walls are up.

2) Up the effect of War Weariness. Again, I am not going to offer any numbers. The idea though, is to make long wars quite hard to continue until technology and civic advancements come more into play.

3) Perhaps the Raging Barbs would have to be upped in strength a little, so as to have SOME sense of threat against the stronger defenses. It's a possibility; maybe not.

The idea here is that early wars would be raider wars. Even if the player utterly crushed the enemy's mobile forces, the cultural borders would remain intact so long as even a handful of defenders were alive to garrison each city. (Something the AI does do well, or I miss my guess.)

Even if the player scoured every road and improvement from the enemy city, it's Workers would (probably) be protected behind city walls. The crushing war weariness would eventually cause even the most determined player to eventually sue for peace.

Then out come the workers and the AI re-develops its still-substantial empire. It has been dramatically weakened, but it's borders are largely intact. Wars will be briefer and city captures much harder. They will still occur, but with luck, will not reduce AI realms to rump status. So when the war ends, the AI civs have a much better 'bounceback' abiity.

Keep 'em alive for the pile-on, I say! :banana:

I have great hopes for the pile-on AI changes done. My fondest, fondest hope for this game is to re-create the opening game tension with end-game capabilities ... and them neat Armegeddon wonders. But maybe the AI empires still need a bit of help surviving long enough to this point? I figure, any AI civ that can retain its cultural borders (for the most part) long enough to reach the tier3/4 transition era will be a credible problem to consider as Ragnarok looms ever-nearer.

Higher city defenses also bring in a greater role for siege weapons. It might also bring about a side-effect of making mounted units the ore desireable.

OK, on to playing this thing called 0.15e.

[Edit: Moved tis paragrpaph to a PS for continuity in the main article:

Upping War Weariness enhances a way to make civs "different" (Once those mid/endgame tech do come into play, that is.) A civ could be particularly resistant to war wearniness so as to balance off some other weakness. Say the archtype Orcs ... always at war ... always dying in droves. Or Hippus perhaps ... war is fine so long as it is raiding. But city fighting? Ick. Or flip-flopped, "strong" Civs could be suceptable to war weariness. Inability to build dungeons for some Good realms, perhaps.

Imagine The Mithril Golem.... 80 str ! LOL ! w00t i love it

Hee hee! :p

Yeah, he's the reason to limit it doubling. Otherwise it's easier to just multiply everything by 10 ... 400 STR Mithril golom. Heeeeeere Vanilla Civ tankie tankie tankie ... come out to play-ayyyyyyy. I don't know if the Team wants 100+ STR units, or if Civ4 can handle a 3-digit number in that field. Mithrilhead sets the upper limit. :)

Those suggestions, Unser, might also do a good deal to 'balance' the Ljosalfar? ;)

Those suggestions, Unser, might also do a good deal to 'balance' the Ljosalfar? ;)

There's no reason any of those would have to apply to Ljosalfar. The other side of that coin, of course, is that they could. :p Having a huge economy that goes straight to hell the moment an unpopular war is launched is certainly a balanced concept, in theory. ;)

But no, I didn't make any suggestion with the idea it was a way to approach Ljosalfar. It just came to me as I watched Bambur casually strie through all of Hippus, pausing only at each city, one turn per defender. Towards the end I had a bit or WW to contend with ... one population point was actually lost to starvation, on the very last turn of Hippus' existance. That's when the thought was born ... tougher cities and more WW, and I wouldhave a vengful Hippus on my borders for the next century or more.

As a side note ... this was my first game I actually got Orthus' Axe. If I known I could attack more than once/turn :aargh: :blush: even WW wouldn't have meant too much.

I didn't mean to imply you were suggesting that they'd balance the elves, Unser.

I was suggesting that increasing city defenses and the reliance on siege weaponry is a way to make the elves pay in the mid-late game for their early game advantages.

I'd like to see the Bannor Enforcers start with City Garrison I, rather than simply having a slightly higher bonus to city defense than a warrior. This way, the extra city defense would carry on through upgrades. As it is, there is only a small increase in strength for defense going from Enforcer to Guardsman, and without access to the City Garrison promotion, the guardsman promotion can be very detrimental to the unit.

After reading a couple of threads devoted to the economically unbalanced nature of the Ljosalfar, it seems most of the complaints are due to their ability to build in forests.

To balance this somewhat, it might be worthwhile to give workers of other civs the ability to build in forests, with the research of hidden paths.
Cottages, at least.
Then the economic advantage the elves have would be reduced from "Only civ able to build cottages in forests" to "starts with the ability to build in forests"
The advantage would still be significant, but it would be limited to the early game (or very early, if an opponent rushes hidden paths).

I didn't mean to imply you were suggesting that they'd balance the elves, Unser.

I was suggesting that increasing city defenses and the reliance on siege weaponry is a way to make the elves pay in the mid-late game for their early game advantages.

??? I thought I thought I did think what you were thinking? :hmm: I must have worded something wrong.

But yes, if city defenses were so high, that would make the lack of siege weaponry much more significant than it is now. That, an the VERY important changes made to the magic system (need a Node in order to learn ANY spells in that sphere) would indeed leave Ljo with a significant weakness in the capture-a-city department.

Well, the Ljosalfar start with Fire mana in their palace, so they're not too handicapped by the new mana system. But really, the absence of siege weapons seems almost trivial, to me.

Well, the Ljosalfar start with Fire mana in their palace, so they're not too handicapped by the new mana system. But really, the absence of siege weapons seems almost trivial, to me.

I tend to agree, under current circumstances. I rarely build siege weapons. The colloateral damage role is much more efficient comeing from Fireballs, and even more so from Plague. That just leaves defensive reduction for their role. And that's sort of optional when you could just Plage and skeleton-swarm the defenders down to about 3 STR before actually attacking. Now that magic Spheres are harder to get, that's a bit harder to achieve. But not so very expensive, as Plague is a teir-2 spell.

ANYWAY, yeah, siege weapons right now, not so useful compared to other stuff you could build. Speaking in broad generalities, of course.

I tend to agree, under current circumstances. I rarely build siege weapons. The colloateral damage role is much more efficient comeing from Fireballs, and even more so from Plague. That just leaves defensive reduction for their role. And that's sort of optional when you could just Plage and skeleton-swarm the defenders down to about 3 STR before actually attacking. Now that magic Spheres are harder to get, that's a bit harder to achieve. But not so very expensive, as Plague is a teir-2 spell.

ANYWAY, yeah, siege weapons right now, not so useful compared to other stuff you could build. Speaking in broad generalities, of course.
ah, but siege is cheap and expendable and effective
and plague doesn't work on undead/deamons
so if you catch people early you can build the correct defense

ah, but siege is cheap and expendable and effective
and plague doesn't work on undead/deamons
so if you catch people early you can build the correct defense

Yeah, I just have not had waves of that particular foe sent at me yet. :)

(but it's no where as cheap or expendable as a 'free' spell :) )

Does anyone know what spells/units allow you to see the shadow unit? I know that the floating eye spell does, but that spell seems to only be available to octopus overlords priests. Is there a universally available unit that can also see the shadow unit?

Does anyone know what spells/units allow you to see the shadow unit? I know that the floating eye spell does, but that spell seems to only be available to octopus overlords priests. Is there a universally available unit that can also see the shadow unit?
nope, but the fellowship of leaves early hero can too

Yeah, I just have not had waves of that particular foe sent at me yet. :)

(but it's no where as cheap or expendable as a 'free' spell :) )
free?
magic users take a significant investment to develope

I haven't gotten around to playing all the Neutrals yet, but I played the Ljolsfar (sp?) and noticed they are Good now - must have missed that patch note... but in the midst of that experience, I remembered the LAST time I played the elves (at least a month ago), in which I tried to get a religious victory. :( . I think 80 percent dominance is just too much - it is next to impossible to achieve (as opposed to just really really really hard, which I could live with).

In that game I deliberately only founded Leaves and wiped out all the Evil civs first so that hopefully no one would research the Ashen Veil, and there were no Sheiam or Kuriotates, so no Cult to worry about either. So I just had Runes, OO, and the Order to stamp out. I took my empire up to just barely under winning Dominance, switched to Theocracy and used my Inquisitors to cleanse all my cities so I was 100% Runes (I had razed the OO and Runes holy cities when I had the chance, too). I left only 2 rivals alive, both on my continent, both Leaves followers like me. However, the closest I got was 77%, and that was even with all my cities flat-out growing as fast as I could get them to go. I peaked there, and oscillated between 75 and 77 percent for around 50 years before I gave up in disgust and just invaded one of my "friends" to end the game.

If it was something more realistic like, say, 66 percent (just like Dominance), then it might be worth the effort, but otherwise I just don't see the point - the only way I could ever see doing it would be to cheese it out, take people's cities in war, cleanse them, then give 'em back so you don't trigger Dominance - or else turn Dominance right off - but in both cases, you're really just doing it to prove it can be done, not as a alternate strategy you might pursue INSTEAD of dominance. At 66 percent it might be worth it to spam missionaries to all your friends early, do anything you possibly can to get Open Borders with the fence-sitters later then spam them as well, and lastly just crusade over everyone not smart enough to give in to the Truth and the Way.

Am I wrong? Has someone out there actually managed a religious victory (and not on a Tiny map with only 2 civs, either)?

Does anyone know what spells/units allow you to see the shadow unit? I know that the floating eye spell does, but that spell seems to only be available to octopus overlords priests. Is there a universally available unit that can also see the shadow unit?

Marksmen see stealth, so does the Fire Sphere summining unit ... Sand Lion?

SEnding out an appeal to the Design Team: Please ensure each Civ has some way to obtain Stealth or at least anti-Stealth capability. (Without putting the Civ in debt for two centuries.) It's amajor bummer to have invisible units running through your rear and not being able to do anything about it. (This sentiment inspired by experiences in different game than FfH, but still ... ouch, it hurts ussssssss.)

free?
magic users take a significant investment to develope

That's why '"free"' was in quotes. They're free once you have the units. :)

I haven't gotten around to playing all the Neutrals yet, but I played the Ljolsfar (sp?) and noticed they are Good now - must have missed that patch note... but in the midst of that experience, I remembered the LAST time I played the elves (at least a month ago), in which I tried to get a religious victory. :( . I think 80 percent dominance is just too much - it is next to impossible to achieve (as opposed to just really really really hard, which I could live with).

In that game I deliberately only founded Leaves and wiped out all the Evil civs first so that hopefully no one would research the Ashen Veil, and there were no Sheiam or Kuriotates, so no Cult to worry about either. So I just had Runes, OO, and the Order to stamp out. I took my empire up to just barely under winning Dominance, switched to Theocracy and used my Inquisitors to cleanse all my cities so I was 100% Runes (I had razed the OO and Runes holy cities when I had the chance, too). I left only 2 rivals alive, both on my continent, both Leaves followers like me. However, the closest I got was 77%, and that was even with all my cities flat-out growing as fast as I could get them to go. I peaked there, and oscillated between 75 and 77 percent for around 50 years before I gave up in disgust and just invaded one of my "friends" to end the game.

If it was something more realistic like, say, 66 percent (just like Dominance), then it might be worth the effort, but otherwise I just don't see the point - the only way I could ever see doing it would be to cheese it out, take people's cities in war, cleanse them, then give 'em back so you don't trigger Dominance - or else turn Dominance right off - but in both cases, you're really just doing it to prove it can be done, not as a alternate strategy you might pursue INSTEAD of dominance. At 66 percent it might be worth it to spam missionaries to all your friends early, do anything you possibly can to get Open Borders with the fence-sitters later then spam them as well, and lastly just crusade over everyone not smart enough to give in to the Truth and the Way.

Am I wrong? Has someone out there actually managed a religious victory (and not on a Tiny map with only 2 civs, either)?

In your Ljo game you must have taken Order or Runes as your state religion. Those will move a Neutral to Good. (Or is it just Order?)

I tend to agreee with you about a religious victory. I tried one in an early game, and came to much the same conclusion. I had Runes in about 90% of the cities and no competitors in my realm, yet I could not get above something like 48-50%. So I shifted gears to a Cultural victory.

IIRC, one of the Ljosalf leaders have the Good alignment - the other two are Neutral.

I have managed to win a religious victory - Played a small fantasy realm map with three opponents, as the Doviello (enemies were Clan of Embers, Infernals and Sheaim). Nobody researched any religion until I picked up the Veil, and after a bit of spreading... boom, religious victory.

Perhaps is actually measures the percentage of the *world* covered with the religion, instead of the percentage of people? The map I got it on had no water apart from small lakes.

I was wondering why the Calabim Palace gives "Law" mana, but not "Death". What rationale are you using for the mana from each palace?

Note that I assume the combat system treats a 30STR vs 20STR battle the same a a !5 vs 10. Both are 3:2 odds in the favor of the attacker. I assume each battle would have the same odds of victory. If the game does NOT work like that, then this idea cannot be used.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137615 has detailed analysis on this.

Kael - can we do away with Religion founding techs being able to be acquired via goody huts? Starting a 2nd era game is maddening when a religion is founded in turn 5! :mad:

Does anyone know what spells/units allow you to see the shadow unit? I know that the floating eye spell does, but that spell seems to only be available to octopus overlords priests. Is there a universally available unit that can also see the shadow unit?
How about giving hawks/ravens ability to see invisible? That'd keep them valuable throughout the game, but they would have to be used to see the invisible, so the attacker would have a free turn or two.

Kael - can we do away with Religion founding techs being able to be acquired via goody huts? Starting a 2nd era game is maddening when a religion is founded in turn 5! :mad:

Yeap, will do.

How about giving hawks/ravens ability to see invisible? That'd keep them valuable throughout the game, but they would have to be used to see the invisible, so the attacker would have a free turn or two.

I was also thinking that maybe giving shadows the ability to react to other shadows would be cool (so shadows still can't see other shadows). i.e. If a shadow tries to attack into a square that has another civs shadow unit on it, the two shadows will duke it out rather than have the attacking shadow target the weakest unit in the stack. And, maybe give the defending shadow some kind of bonus (especially if they're in their on city -- they'd know their own turf, the backstreets and dark alley, much better than the invader). You could also set up traps for enemy shadows by having workers out in the open where you've been plagued by shadow attacks, then put your own shadow with the worker and give that invading shadow a big suprise when he tries to assassinate your poor worker.

Speaking of Shadows, wouldn't it be better to make them unable to capture cities? I have never tested this but I guess it would be quite devastating if someone sneaks 1-2 Shadows to your capitol or another good city deep in your territory which is only guarded by one unit and razes it. If you have no unit which can see them the only "defence" angainst this is to keep several good units in every city.
Imagine a Grigori Adventurer upgraded to a Shadow with commando, march and several combat promotions, I'd rather have Loki running through my land :D
A Shadow represents only one man, right? So he should be able to assassinate/poison some guards but not to occupy/destroy a whole city.
If Shadows are already unable to do this just ignore this post.

I was wondering why the Calabim Palace gives "Law" mana, but not "Death". What rationale are you using for the mana from each palace?

Nobody starts with death or entropy (except maybe the infernals ?), because there are major diplomatic penalties involved with having them.

And besides, vampires are alive in the FFH setting, so the Calabim are not really death users...

And the vampires are Lawful in their personality.

My girlfriend complained that she is going for the baron every game because it seems the easiest way to dominate the AI (at least on lower difficult levels)

Maybe give the player who builds the baron a negative diplomacy modifier with each other civ based on the number of werewolves he has under control:

Something along: Werewolfcount/2 = -DiplomacyModifier



a small penalty, but maybe this will help the AI to dogpile on the player who tries to exploit werewolves.

My girlfriend complained that she is going for the baron every game because it seems the easiest way to dominate the AI (at least on lower difficult levels)

Maybe give the player who builds the baron a negative diplomacy modifier with each other civ based on the number of werewolves he has under control:

Something along: Werewolfcount/2 = -DiplomacyModifier

a small penalty, but maybe this will help the AI to dogpile on the player who tries to exploit werewolves.

Good point. Just give it a cap at 5 or so because of the balance and apply it only to good/neutral civs. Your ashen veil friend won't worry if you massacre order with werewolves.

My girlfriend complained that she is going for the baron every game because it seems the easiest way to dominate the AI (at least on lower difficult levels)

Maybe give the player who builds the baron a negative diplomacy modifier with each other civ based on the number of werewolves he has under control:

Something along: Werewolfcount/2 = -DiplomacyModifier

a small penalty, but maybe this will help the AI to dogpile on the player who tries to exploit werewolves.

I tend to think werewolves are a double-win mechanic (if you would already have won they allow you to win faster). Im actually a big fan of double-win conditions because they allow you to avoid some of the games tedium.

But I would consider dropping the base chance of getting a werewolf from 100% to 75%.

The other adjustment that would be kind of nice would be that enemy AI units wouldn't attack a werewolf unless they are likely to win.

I tend to think werewolves are a double-win mechanic (if you would already have won they allow you to win faster). Im actually a big fan of double-win conditions because they allow you to avoid some of the games tedium.

But I would consider dropping the base chance of getting a werewolf from 100% to 75%.

The other adjustment that would be kind of nice would be that enemy AI units wouldn't attack a werewolf unless they are likely to win.

Could you have "Silverized" units? If a unit has the silverized promotion perhaps it cant turn into a wearwolf/undead/unnatural thing? It would just prevent the normal spell from working, not provide any combat bonuses.

Silverized units could be effective against multiple situations, but im not sure of what, some of the ones I can imagine is:
Undead Creation
Werewolf Creation
Flesh Golem Creation

The idea is that its not anti-magic, its anti-condition. Anti-Lycantrophy and Undead makes sense, but not anti-summon. Not sure about what potentially else it'd be good for.
-Qes

EDIT: This way there is a prevention of the "double-win" but only in specific cases.

I dont think the werewolf mechanic really needs any revisiting. It works well as is. Removing choices from the player is almost always a bad idea. Though dropping the WW % to 75 isnt all that bad since it does add some random chance.

Having a diplo penalty similar to using death/entropy magic might not be too bad. After all, the Baron is hardy a "good guy." Not sure where I stand on the % chance issue.

The real problem with the Baron is that he is easily the strongest thing around when he is built, so he can go on a rampage, get a lot of xp, and stay the strongest thing around for a long time. The other werewolves are not the problem, they are weak and difficult to level, but it is a fact that the Baron alone can easily conquer whole civilizations when he is built, and leave his own garrisons behind.

By the way, playing Calabim, you can gift vampirism to the Baron, and then he can feed on the ravenous werewolves he creates to heal himself. Now THAT is overpowered.

The only thing I would do to the Baron is take away the city raider line of promotions (to put a cap on his civilization destroying potential). Since that would leave him with very few promotions, why not create a whole new "werewolf only" promotion line that affect the probability of getting new werewolves and the health they start with ?

Since recent patches, the werewolves get promotions from the units they killed. My blooded werewolf killed a combat5 priest, who had been softened with fireballs. I got c5 casting ravenous werewolf. After some time I had c5 cr2 casting greater werewolf (de facto tier 4 unit) for free :D
This is overpowered!

The only thing I would do to the Baron is take away the city raider line of promotions (to put a cap on his civilization destroying potential). Since that would leave him with very few promotions, why not create a whole new "werewolf only" promotion line that affect the probability of getting new werewolves and the health they start with ?

Sounds good to me!

Since recent patches, the werewolves get promotions from the units they killed. My blooded werewolf killed a combat5 priest, who had been softened with fireballs. I got c5 casting ravenous werewolf. After some time I had c5 cr2 casting greater werewolf (de facto tier 4 unit) for free :D
This is overpowered!

That will be fixed in the next patch.

Am I the only one that thinks Twincast is horrendously unbalanced..? I used one group of 4 Fireball wizards who all had it, and one group of 4 Conjurers with one wiz for haste and scorch, in my last game. I just declared war on everyone at once for fun, and used those two stacks to literally raze every city that didnt belong to me off the map... Nothing could stand up to the Twincasted Sand Lions (those Earth things if I couldn't get a nearby plain) and at most it took 3 turns for the Fireballers to bring down a city (that was the barbarian dragon city, all others were one or two turns.) I get the feeling this ought to be something like +1 strength to spells or something.. Making it like you have two mages in one is pretty over the top IMHO, especially since I could level them straight from Adepts to Twincasting Fireballers with Combat 5 as soon as they were built, thanks to the Form of the Titan and Cave of Wonders (Also had Eternal Flame to boost CoW. Yeah, I skipped all domestic techs for magery just for fun, except elf cottages... was using their Arcane/Summoner leader, forget her name.)

Not only all that, but since all my mages had combat 5 as soon as they were built, they didnt even need a guardian escort.. since none of the AI civs (except one) had better than Axemen at that time, they won every single fight, and one of them even ended up with Orthus's Axe :O The one that had Assassins went down real quick once I learned to bring a Hunter along, and nuke them as soon as they appeared.. All attacks against my forests met with a very quick, fiery (or earthy, in the case of the Conjurers) death.

Anyways, my point is that (again, IMHO, and I'm no pro developer or anything) that Twincast should be changed to something that doesn't literally double your power, especially when it is so easily obtained and spammed with Arcane and the right buildings. Its not the problem that the AI doesnt use spells nearly as much, as I could see this being a big issue in an MP game.

Do Summoning Circles work against fireballs and such..?

Edit: I'm also of the opinion that casting any spell above level 1 should require a full turn action, and that there should be some form of "mana" (or something like that) so that 4 Twincasting Conjurers cant summon a stack of 8 Strength 8 units every single turn, that last for 3 turns each, and run circles around anything chasing them to boot thanks to Haste.. But meh. Judging from the posts on here, it doesn't really seem like people play with spells that much..

Am I the only one that thinks Twincast is horrendously unbalanced..? I used one group of 4 Fireball wizards who all had it, and one group of 4 Conjurers with one wiz for haste and scorch, in my last game. I just declared war on everyone at once for fun, and used those two stacks to literally raze every city that didnt belong to me off the map... Nothing could stand up to the Twincasted Sand Lions (those Earth things if I couldn't get a nearby plain) and at most it took 3 turns for the Fireballers to bring down a city (that was the barbarian dragon city, all others were one or two turns.) I get the feeling this ought to be something like +1 strength to spells or something.. Making it like you have two mages in one is pretty over the top IMHO, especially since I could level them straight from Adepts to Twincasting Fireballers with Combat 5 as soon as they were built, thanks to the Form of the Titan and Cave of Wonders (Also had Eternal Flame to boost CoW. Yeah, I skipped all domestic techs for magery just for fun, except elf cottages... was using their Arcane/Summoner leader, forget her name.)

Not only all that, but since all my mages had combat 5, they didnt even need a guardian escort.. since none of the AI civs (except one) had better than Axemen at that time, they won every single fight, and one of them even ended up with Orthus's Axe :O The one that had Assassins went down real quick once I learned to bring a Hunter along, and nuke them as soon as they appeared..

Anyways, my point is that (again, IMHO, and I'm no pro developer or anything) that Twincast should be changed to something that doesn't literally double your power, especially when it is so easily obtained and spammed with Arcane and the right buildings.

Yeah, I think you are right. I think I am am only going to allow casting heroes to learn it.

Am I the only one that thinks Twincast is horrendously unbalanced..? I used one group of 4 Fireball wizards who all had it, and one group of 4 Conjurers with one wiz for haste and scorch, in my last game. I just declared war on everyone at once for fun, and used those two stacks to literally raze every city that didnt belong to me off the map... Nothing could stand up to the Twincasted Sand Lions (those Earth things if I couldn't get a nearby plain) and at most it took 3 turns for the Fireballers to bring down a city (that was the barbarian dragon city, all others were one or two turns.) I get the feeling this ought to be something like +1 strength to spells or something.. Making it like you have two mages in one is pretty over the top IMHO, especially since I could level them straight from Adepts to Twincasting Fireballers with Combat 5 as soon as they were built, thanks to the Form of the Titan and Cave of Wonders (Also had Eternal Flame to boost CoW. Yeah, I skipped all domestic techs for magery just for fun, except elf cottages... was using their Arcane/Summoner leader, forget her name.)

Not only all that, but since all my mages had combat 5, they didnt even need a guardian escort.. since none of the AI civs (except one) had better than Axemen at that time, they won every single fight, and one of them even ended up with Orthus's Axe :O The one that had Assassins went down real quick once I learned to bring a Hunter along, and nuke them as soon as they appeared..

Anyways, my point is that (again, IMHO, and I'm no pro developer or anything) that Twincast should be changed to something that doesn't literally double your power, especially when it is so easily obtained and spammed with Arcane and the right buildings.

What difficulty are you playing on? Because honestly by the time i get twin cast i have armies knocking on my door, and assassins killing my mages.

Shadows and Assassins are the casters bane, as they cannot hide in an army stack to protect themselves. Many times ive attempted exactly what you said, and while i may have inital success, my army of casters STOP when I hit a brick wall of assassins and cavalry. Plus it takes a long time to develop twin cast. You think fireball twin cast is uber, have you tried meteor swarm twincasted with 3 archmages? 6 a turn, is a good effective way to end a city. But archmages are vulnerable, and if your not careful, your stack will get attacked and killed. What did you bring with your army?

I play on Prince, and if your playing on this or higher, i commend you, I never get magic fast enough.
-Qes

See my edit above. Assassins didn't have a chance vs those Conjurers with one of my own assassins along (by the time I was fighting them, I had researched them myself.. said Hunters in previous post accidentaly) Assassins can see any invisible unit, and anything that got in visible range was set upon by the band of summoned creatures I kept with my conjurers at all times, since they last for 3 turns.. I was rotating them out. 2 stacks of 8 always attacking, and one defending. Haste is one incredible spell, let me say..

The wizards had a few axemen along, but I dont think they ever actually had to fight anything. The wizards had them beat in melee with Combat 5, and like I said, one got Orthus's axe to boot.

Prince difficulty, and like I said I skipped almost all techs to get casting quick. Early game elf economics helped a lot.

I hate to harp, but maybe haste should also be self-only. Then trainers would have a bit more value :)

Not sure how they stop you. Have all wizards but one spew their twinned fireballs, one casts haste, run 2 spaces away, then move hasted fireballs to hit them, repeat next turn as they follow you since you dont have to stop to cast.. How can they even catch you?

I dont think it would have been so overwhelming if I hadn't been getting two balls out of every cast. What Kael said sounds like it would solve the problem nicely, although I am sure it will still be pretty nasty :)

edit.. again: Forgot to say that I love this mod. Great work! Cant believe what you guys have managed to do with civ 4. Sorry for the spam ^^

Yeah, I think you are right. I think I am am only going to allow casting heroes to learn it.

I think that will balance it good. Twincast, although I havnt experienced it myself, sounds pretty damn good.

I think that will balance it good. Twincast, although I havnt experienced it myself, sounds pretty damn good.

How I loved my twin casters, I took from them a single spell, perhaps one day to love them again.
-Qes

P.s. Making Hero Casters more uber, in comparison, however, is not something i can argue with.

give hero casters twincast to start?

No, just that twincast would require combat 5 (as it does now) and the hero promotion. So only hero casters (including adventures) could learn it.

sounds good to me.

This might be going out on a limb, but.. Just a thought that struck me. Maybe mages/wizards/priests (non-hero casters, again) should get a strength penalty equal to their Combat promotion ranks? It just doesnt seem right that a mage, who presumably spends his time in study to learn his spells or whatever, can melee better than trained Axemen, since you really take the Combat promos to boost your spell power, and mages are supposed to be weak physically anyways... Just a random thought, like I said.

sounds good to me.

This might be going out on a limb, but.. Just a thought that struck me. Maybe mages/wizards/priests (non-hero casters, again) should get a strength penalty equal to their Combat promotion ranks? It just doesnt seem right that a mage, who presumably spends his time in study to learn his spells or whatever, can melee better than trained Axemen, since you really take the Combat promos to boost your spell power.

I assumed that the mage uses his spells in combat. So having more powerful spell ability would make him more effective in all sorts of fighting, I dont think hes rushing in and hitting people with his staff.

that makes sense. I pretty much assumed that he was, well, staff bashing :)

Was gonna suggest (I'm just full of idears tonight) a promo like Spellsword that removed the penalty at Comb 5, just as a way to diversify, but yeah. If they are casting anyways..

Breweries just don't seem to fit their early tech slot because of their 300 :hammers: cost. What starting out civ can afford to build a 300 :hammers: building at that stage? It seems moot to attach it to Crafting. By the time they serve a purpose and are affordable, technology has advanced far past that point.

I've heard it said that mankind may have formed the first communities because they banded together to be able to brew beer. :) So it's very appropriate for Crafting. But couldn't its function and cost be dialed down to be more useful for fledgling civs?

Breweries just don't seem to fit their early tech slot because of their 300 :hammers: cost. What starting out civ can afford to build a 300 :hammers: building at that stage? It seems moot to attach it to Crafting. By the time they serve a purpose and are affordable, technology has advanced far past that point.

I've heard it said that mankind may have formed the first communities because they banded together to be able to brew beer. :) So it's very appropriate for Crafting. But couldn't its function and cost be dialed down to be more useful for fledgling civs?
it's one of those things that only tree hugging elves can afford...

it's one of those things that only tree hugging elves can afford...

Firstly, if you loved the tree as we do, the tree would love you back.

Secondly, i think i agree that breweries are a bit expensive early game. Crafting Does make sense, but is making the building cheaper affect the balance in anyway? I think it could be done without any adverse effects.
-Qes

Firstly, if you loved the tree as we do, the tree would love you back.

Secondly, i think i agree that breweries are a bit expensive early game. Crafting Does make sense, but is making the building cheaper affect the balance in anyway? I think it could be done without any adverse effects.
-Qes

Making it cheaper would have a quite noticeable effect. Rigt now it is very hard to raise the happycap before religion is discovered. Carnivals+animal captures, or gold from mining if you're lucky ... well, you get the idea. A cheap building of up to +3 :) available before religion would really change the flow of some games.

I am not saying this is automatically a Bad Thing, mind you. ;)

it's one of those things that only tree hugging elves can afford...

Yah, but good brew is wasted on 'em. :cheers:

I think that breweries still grant dwarven units an additional +2XP. Another reason for keeping it expensive.

I don't mind that crafting grants a building that I can't still afford to build. It unlocks a few precious techs (do I think Runes or do I think Bronze ?), and it's always nice to get the option to build those later on. Besides, all civs don't need to rush to crafting so early (The Drown is more or less a ressource-free Axeman, and I don't think that Archery, Horseback Riding and Warfare require crafting either -- although Bronze + Axes is still the safe way to warfare), one might as well be able to build breweries when they discover it.

Since recent patches, the werewolves get promotions from the units they killed. My blooded werewolf killed a combat5 priest, who had been softened with fireballs. I got c5 casting ravenous werewolf. After some time I had c5 cr2 casting greater werewolf (de facto tier 4 unit) for free :D
This is overpowered!

I don't think that this needs drastic fixing, werewolves should keep their promos (fits the mythos), maybe just kill the casting promos.

Fader

I don't think that this needs drastic fixing, werewolves should keep their promos (fits the mythos), maybe just kill the casting promos.

Fader

It allowed you to get many werewolvwes with wierd promotins thanks to callateral damege units.

You can get many c5 werewolves if you let baron kill of acheron city orc shamans, who level up during time. I still wonder what would happen if I killed a hero with my baron (imagine mardero in the craziest case)...

It allowed you to get many werewolvwes with wierd promotins thanks to callateral damege units.

You can get many c5 werewolves if you let baron kill of acheron city orc shamans, who level up during time. I still wonder what would happen if I killed a hero with my baron (imagine mardero in the craziest case)...
the baron can't convert demon units, though maybe sphener...

Why can't mud golems build dwarven mines? The Luirchip (sp?) are dwarven after all and I don't see any balance need for this building to be Khazad specific.

Why can't mud golems build dwarven mines? The Luirchip (sp?) are dwarven after all and I don't see any balance need for this building to be Khazad specific.

I was wondering this too. The Luchruip strike me as less and less truly dwarven the more I look at them. Makes me sad. They're more Gnomish at this point.
-Qes

I think that the importance of mithril was greatly reduced by making it a ressource of the dragons hoard. In single player games it will always be the player who kills the dragon and so their never is any reason for mithril wars in the late game (I had some of those in earlier versions :( )

For gameplay dynamics it would be cooler to remove mithril from the hoard and have it give 2 gold/1gems or 2gems/1gold.

Or maybe 1 gold + 1 gems + some :gold:, something between 5 and 10.

I was thinking that maybe if mithril became visible sooner, we'd have more wars to obtain it... maybe visible with iron working?

I was thinking that maybe if mithril became visible sooner, we'd have more wars to obtain it... maybe visible with iron working?
maybe the metals can become visible with the tech before them

Just wanted to point out that I made some mistakes in my past a ways back about Twincast. I loaded the save, and actually, I was using Amurites, not elves, and that was why I could level my casters up to maxed out Wizards/Conjurers as soon as they were built, thanks to the Cave of Ancestors giving them so much xp with the Palace mana, the Eternal Flame, some nodes, and the Form of the Titan. (I actually thought I was the elves, and that anyone could built the Cave till I saw Kael's post in another thread.. wish that stuff was in the wiki, heh.) I did, however, skip all tech but cottages and such to get my casting up quickly, and proceeded to wipe out the planet with 9 twincasting mages :)

Sorry, still kinda new to this, all these civ names get confusing, heh. I tried to duplicate that feat with Sheiam, and failed miserably, due to not having the Cave. Methinks the Amurites need more credit than they get.

maybe make a special improvment, Mithril Mine, avaiable whit Mithril Working, but let mithril be seen at Iron Working...

maybe make a special improvment, Mithril Mine, avaiable whit Mithril Working, but let mithril be seen at Iron Working...
...:confused: ...
where would you build this mine?
on top of prospective mithril rescources?

yeaaaa.... then you could locate and acquire Mithril early (leading to mithril wars), but would only be able to use it with Mithril Working

i start my mithril wars early and just assume every hill can have mithril... then just eliminate anyone with ahill in their territory...
but seriously, why bother fighting for mithril before you can use it? theres some advantage in having it ready and all, but it would just be annoying more than anything to see it and not be able to use it.

You know mithril can spawn on flatlands, too. Better expand your warring. :p

ah well, i start with always war on anyways usually lol

Tell me if this is A) wrong, or B) been mentioned before.

I had myself a level 20 Vampire Lord. He made me very happy. Perhaps I was too happy. But as i was trouncing my enemies underfoot I noticed a very perculiear design exploit.

I only did this once or twice, so bare with me it may not be infanitely repeatable.

6 Well armed, well defended units sit in a city. I am sick of using contagion, so im gonna play around with Dominate.

My Vampire Lord Dominates a Crossbow man, he then eats a crossbow man and can go again. He dominates a longbow man, he then eats the longbow man and can go again. He then dominates another longbow man. He then attacks (i got sick of this little version, and i wanted him to kill something.)
But still. Is this supposed to work like this?

How does dominate work,what are the chances of failure? And how are they determined? Does level matter? He was SUCH a high level.

Anyway, Lemme know.
-Qes

I'd like to see kuriotate settlements able to at least build naval units.

Also, I think the kuriotates could be a lot more fun and I hope they are not 'done.'