I recently won my first Emperor game. I was Frederick (philosphical/organized). I ran a specialist/mixed economy for the majority of the game. As most of you know the key to a succesful specialist economy is the pyrmaids. Alothough getting the pyrmaids before the AI is often a huge challenge I believe I've found away to get it without stone and minimal chopping. The Key is to build the GreatWall. How would building the great wall be the key to getting the pyramids you might ask. Well the Great wall is 200 hammers cheaper than the Pyramids which is quiete signficant and the great wall also produces 2Gp/turn an engineer 4gp/turn if your phil. (this is the most important part) So, in 50/25 turns (normal speed) you will have a Greay Engineer. Use this great engineer to rush the pyrmaids. You will now have accesss to the powerful representation trait and will be producing 4gp/turn of engineet (8gp/turn for phil). In another 50/25 turns you will have your second Great Engineer. Use this one to rush the Great Library. I built the GL in a different city than my capital and made this city (w/ high food growing capabilities) into a super science city, as well as Great Scientist factory. By building in a different city this allows better control of what great people you produce. My pyrmaids/greatwalll city produced Great Engineers, while my Great library/science city produced great scientists. This allowed me to get a catch up to the AI and actually get a decent tech lead (for Emperor anyways). This works pretty good as on the way to literature you need alphabet and you can trade for techs you missed out. This is a saferway to get a specialist economy running early on and is less of a gambit than just straight for pyramids although this makes Philisphical nessicary as you will have twice as many turns to produce your Great Engineers. This strategy also allows you to spend more productions on military early on as you only need to spend 250 on the Great wall and the rest can go to military/expansion. This strategy can be played as most philisophical leaders (alex, peter, frederick and gandhi) but isnt very practical for other leaders. Tell me what you think any suggestions.

Well the Great wall is 200 hammers cheaper than the Great Wall

Sounds like a good early strategy, you want to change that sentence however :)

woops, changed but still looking for more replies.

yes, good strategy but getting the great wall isnt much easier than the pyramids so you still will be beaten by industious civs or those with stone

In the game I mentioned earlier, I managed to build the Great Wall in the year 970 BC. Although I wasn't playing against any industrial civs (randomly), but Mao did have stone within his starting city boarder. I guess i'll try this strategy a little more and see what year the Great Wall is built by the computer with more industrial Civs.

Also if you are really worriered about getting the great wall just chop 5 or so trees. If you have not enough trees than just start building earlier. The main problem with this strategy as any Pyrmaids strategy is the unrealiablity and loss of some early expansion.

Doesn`t seem to make sense to me.
Maybe my math is wrong, but...
It takes 25 turns for the GE to show up.
If you would have buildt the Pyramids instead of the wall right away, it would have cost you 200 hammers more.
200 hammers in 25 turns means 8 hammers per turn - something a decent city should be able to pull off, even early in the game.
So the real advantage of this is that you get both the wall and the pyramids, wich is nice. But I can`t see you getting the pyramids faster.

It seems that it might not be significantly faster, but it sounds like this method will be less of a strain on your empire since your production queue will not be occupied as long as builiding the Pyramids straight out.

It seems that it might not be significantly faster, but it sounds like this method will be less of a strain on your empire since your production queue will not be occupied as long as builiding the Pyramids straight out.

It also seems as though there's less risk associated with it for this reason, although I haven't bothered trying to build the GW at all yet, so I don't know how hard it is to get on Emperor. Looks like it might be worth trying though. One problem could be not finishing the GW early enough and missing the Pyramids by a few turns while waiting for the Engineer though.

Doesn`t seem to make sense to me.
Maybe my math is wrong, but...
It takes 25 turns for the GE to show up.
If you would have buildt the Pyramids instead of the wall right away, it would have cost you 200 hammers more.
200 hammers in 25 turns means 8 hammers per turn - something a decent city should be able to pull off, even early in the game.
So the real advantage of this is that you get both the wall and the pyramids, wich is nice. But I can`t see you getting the pyramids faster.

Like sigmakan pointed out, its not about getting the pyrmaids faster its about using those 200 hammers to build other things; expansion, infastructure, and a military. ((1 library and 3 axes) (5 swords) (8 archers) (5.5 Axes) (1 settler and 3 axes) (2 workers and 3 axes) Those 200 hammers ensure your survival and make it far less of a gambit. Even if you dont get the pyrmaids you still will recieve a Great Engineer, which could still be used to rush the Great Library or disscover Metal Casting.

Point taken.

Confirmed that this is a great strategy for a Philosophical leader SE set up, that beats both building Pyramids from scratch or using the Oracle/MC gambit. I actually thought about trying it recently and it's great to see someone tested it in the field. :)

Pete, Fred and Gandhi are best suited for this strategy, since they all start with Mining, which means you are already on the path for Masonry/Bronze Working. Liz also has Mining, but she is Financial, so less synergies there (since the early Pyramids strategy works best with the Specialist Economy).

I was so confused when I first read this, cus I didn't think Civ IV had the Great Wall as a wonder... Searched for it in the Civilopedia, still couldn't find it. I was going crazy cus everyone was talking about something I couldn't find at all. Then I worked out it's in the Warlords expansion. Sigh I'm so silly.

Sounds like a good strat though, I would love to try it out, but I don't have the expansion as of yet. Keep up the articles though, new ideas are always great to read.

Sounds like a good strategy. The engineers from the GW come really fast. The good thing about this strategy, as you pointed out, is the no loss of production to build The Pyramids. Even if you don't get the Pyramids (and Representation) the GW will still be a huge advantage generating Engineers for you and stopping Barbarians from pillaging in the early game. And all this for 200 hammers:)

Btw, don't forget to get Mathematics before the Alphabet - then get The Hanging Gardens. (another Great Engineer wonder). It's not THAT hard and the AI seldom builds them. Then you'll have even more Engineers. You may experience a little slowdown in tech exchange not going straight for the Alphabet but you should be able to overwhelm it:P

Liz also has Mining, but she is Financial, so less synergies there (since the early Pyramids strategy works best with the Specialist Economy).

Liz is now my favourite for a specialist game (besides alex), because if you loose out on the pyramids, or dont have stone, you can play a pretty good cottage spam start with her and eventually get the pyramids later through conquest (or just cottage spam till space victory :king: ).

Sounds like a good strategy. The engineers from the GW come really fast. The good thing about this strategy, as you pointed out, is the no loss of production to build The Pyramids. Even if you don't get the Pyramids (and Representation) the GW will still be a huge advantage generating Engineers for you and stopping Barbarians from pillaging in the early game. And all this for 200 hammers:)

Btw, don't forget to get Mathematics before the Alphabet - then get The Hanging Gardens. (another Great Engineer wonder). It's not THAT hard and the AI seldom builds them. Then you'll have even more Engineers. You may experience a little slowdown in tech exchange not going straight for the Alphabet but you should be able to overwhelm it:P
For sure, you could easily get the hanging gardens, and also get metal casting for forges (engineer specialist). IF you manage to build all these wonders in one city and a forge, it would total 2+2+2+3=9x2=18 Great Engineer points a turn! Coupled with a city high food city containing the great library and producing scientists like crazy creates an unstoppable Great person economy. Best part is you don't have to be reliant on stone. As several chops will have this strategy under way and it pretty much is self constructive. As almost no shields (except the GW) are ever wasted on building wonders, which is the best part. It leaves you with production for early expansion and early conquest. Works best with Frederick, Gandhi, and Peter; but can easily be accomplished with Alexander and Elizabeth as well. With Elizabeth it gives your economy a plan B with the financial trait. Just switch to a cottage economy with a nice GP farm. For Alexander you can just go conquer the builder of the pyramids if you fail this plan. They will have wasted time on building the pyramids unlike you, who will have spent it on building a huge army. Although Frederick is still my favorite for this plan, as cheap courthouses and 1/2 civic costs are amazing to supplement a large empire and if you ever make to the modern age and it is remotely close, you can mop up your rivals with Panzers and an assembly plant which can run 4 engineers. Gandhi would be second with a UU that lasts the whole game and the ability to switch civics on the fly is nice if you ever need to go into a long war you can always switch to Military Police for a few turns and switch back without wasting time in anarchy. Finally the bronze medal goes to Peter with His crappy Cossacks and his amazing Research Institute (which is a better version of the Laboratory (2 free scientists plus you can add scientists). This virtually a late game Great library except it’s cheaper and can be built in every city). Unfortunately his expansive trait is a little lacking, unless low on health resources and have a massive scientist city on floodplains. But cheep granaries are always handy coupled with slavery you get a +30 production boost whipping people (up to 3 hammers/turn).

Best starts for this plan usually include having an amazing production capital (with Stone if lucky) and a close super food city for the great library and as many scientists as you can feed. The better the Great Library/super scientist city is the more you can have secondary cities building units to crush your enemies. Or the converse with a great food Capital for science and a Great production city for the Great Wall; all depends on the random map you get.

Edit: Cossacks are not overpowered I didnt realize the major nerf they recieved in Warlords. Noted what Carl_codey wrote and changed the ending.

My thoughts exactly, Paulk. Very good post. SE is becoming my true love in Civ4, especially in multiplayer games (and you can see my favourite leader in my avatar - I consider him better than Frederick, since granaries are available and become useful earlier, and you can augment an early slavery-based production with them and simply build necessary specialist infrastructure without even a need to switch to Caste System). :D

Cossacks aren't overpowered in warlords btw.

Question: How much does the AI prioritze the Great Wall on Emperor? (Compared to other wonders).

Nice strategy, I think I prefer Gandhi for it, but I'll have to give it a shot with the other Philosophical leaders too. The reasons for which I like Gandhi more are 1) his UU who can help you by moving faster between the tiles you wish to improve and the forrest tiles for the chops and 2) no penalty from switching to slavery. Granted, all of this will only give you maybe a 2-3 turns advantage for the Great Wall at first, but that also means earlier Pyramids, no penalty when switching to Representation, etc. Organized is good for a big empire, but Spiritual is just game-changingly good! :D

And yeah, as PMabey said, Cossacks aren't overpowered anymore, they have 15 strength now instead of 18 in vanilla cIV.

Edit: There's no Philo/Creative leader in Warlords anymore. :( They changed Frederick but didn't add anybody with those traits. I think that that kind of leader could have been even better: fast border expansion meant no need to build an Obelisk/Monument in your second city. Since this one will usually have the copper, hence have a better production, I'll very likely build the GW in it. So that means it needs to chop some forrests, and so an early Monument is a must. Of course, if you manage to dedicate your capital to building the GW it's a totally different story, but since capitals are usually placed in food heavy spots I'd rather keep it for running Scientists.

O wow didnt realiza the major nerf on cossacks. Only have the 50% bonus vs other mounted. They are definately not overpowered. That really hurts Peter late game. I'm suprised they havent weakened redcoats though. They are still amazing. Makes me wonder how many of the programers are british?

Question: How much does the AI prioritze the Great Wall on Emperor? (Compared to other wonders).
I think this is the second wonder the AI build, just after Stonehenge. In most games I've played its built between 500BC and 1300BC. It depends if any of the AI have stone. I also often see the AI build the Great Wall and use the Great Engineer they get to rush the Pyramids. (just like in this strategy)
Once Stonehenge is built you better be near completed the Great Wall cause you will only have about 10 turns to complete. (depending on your opponents)

O wow didnt realiza the major nerf on cossacks. Only have the 50% bonus vs other mounted. They are definately not overpowered. That really hurts Peter late game. I'm suprised they havent weakened redcoats though. They are still amazing. Makes me wonder how many of the programers are british?
Still, Peter has one of the best UBs in game, that goes very well with his trait combo which favours SE. :)

It's good but it comes so late that really hurts its value, but it is great if your going for the space race... Russia winning a space race? That'll never happen.

After many attempts i finally have got this to work on emperor. the great wall isnt difficult to get if you have decent production and start it quite early. the stumbling block is getting the great engineer before the pyramids are built, but it is not impossible.

My main problem has been getting boxed in with only 3 or 4 cities and so have to take out one of my neighbours. That is why i favour Alexander fot this strategy; he's aggressive and has a decent uu. The odeons arent bad either.

I got a domination victory just as all the other civs were discovering democracy and using the emancipation civic. This is VERY annoying. You cannot adopt it because you need caste system to run the necessary specilaists. Subsequently your cities have serious happiness problems. Also at this time running a CE would really start to take effect with printing press and free speech, so your research advantage will be cut.

Yes, this is a good strategy. The AI does not seem to prioritize the GW that much (and also, I have to say the effect of the GW is quite useful on raging barbs). I did a similar thing before reading this with Alexander on Monarch. I had GW, Pyramids, and HG in Athens and I built the GL in my science city. I'm about to get a forge too so I should have the +18 GE points per turn going.

you only get 1 gp piont for GW in warlords 2.08 epic speed :(

you only get 1 gp piont for GW in warlords 2.08 epic speed :(

Yeah, that was a change that was made for 2.08. It seems that even a Philosophical leader now won't get the Great Engineer in time to rush the Pyramids, especially on Emperor. :sad: I was just about to try this too...

I've been able to build p'mids (on emperor), without stone, without philosophical and without industrious and with raging barbs! After building great wall the key is to build a library and add some scientists to boost GP points. You'll still be a strong favorite to get an engineer. The AI seems to build the pyramids later, in 2.08.

After building great wall the key is to build a library and add some scientists to boost GP points. You'll still be a strong favorite to get an engineer.
Not quite. The more the scientists contribute to the GP emergence, the less likely it will be to be an engineer. For instance, if your scientists contribute 70 of the 100 required gpp, your chances of getting a GE fall down to 30%. In fact, the sooner you get a GP, the worse the odds.

For instance, if your scientists contribute 70 of the 100 required gpp, your chances of getting a GE fall down to 30%.

No, that isn't how it works.

Sorry, but I simply can't decypher (that's inability, not laziness) the math in the article you pointed me to. Furthermore, it seems to contain contradicting opinions and no obvious conclusions. Care to sum it up?

Care to sum it up?
All that matters in determining the type of GP produced is the quantity of sources of that type, not the magnitude of those sources.

eg. 30 turns at 1 GE point per turn from the Great Wall followed by 10 turns with the same 1 GE point plus an additional 6 GS points from 2 scientists will yield 100 total GPP with the following odds:

GE: 40/60
GS: 20/60

All that matters in determining the type of GP produced is the quantity of sources of that type, not the magnitude of those sources.

eg. 30 turns at 1 GE point per turn followed by 10 turns at 1 GE and 6 GS points per turn will yield 100 total GPP with the following odds:

GE: 40/60
GS: 20/60

No. yes - I had failed to recognize what was being written in this example. I might have had a better shot at it had I realized that the 1 GE point would be something like the Great Wall, rather than Ironworks. My bad; I still think my example below is clearer *pout*

Correct: If you have the pyramids (+2 GE points) and two hired scientists (+3 GS points each), then the pyramids are contributing 25% of the points, but you'll have a 33% chance of landing a GE (because one third of your sources is an engineer source).

This is why you get more Great Artists from your GP farm than you would like in a non cultural game: even though the National Epic is only contributing one point per turn, it contaminates the pool just as strongly as hiring an artist does.

It may not always have been that way, but that's the current state of affairs in Warlords 2.08 and Vanilla 1.61

Correct: If you have the pyramids (+2 GE points) and two hired scientists (+3 GS points each), then the pyramids are contributing 25% of the points, but you'll have a 33% chance of landing a GE (because one third of your sources is an engineer source).

Huh? That's exactly what I said.

Maybe it'd be better if I put my results as a percentage instead?

GE: 66.67%
GS: 33.33%

Note this differs from the total gpp contribution (given below):

GE: 40%
GS: 60%

Huh? That's exactly what I said.

Maybe it'd be better if I put my results as a percentage instead?

No, but it would have been clearer if you had been specific that you were looking at one source of GE points, but two sources of GS points. I missed the switch from apples to oranges.

No, but it would have been clearer if you had been specific that you were looking at one source of GE points, but two sources of GS points. I missed the switch from apples to oranges.
Ah, you mean you couldn't read my mind? :mischief:

If you have the pyramids (+2 GE points) and two hired scientists (+3 GS points each), then the pyramids are contributing 25% of the points, but you'll have a 33% chance of landing a GE (because one third of your sources is an engineer source).

This is why you get more Great Artists from your GP farm than you would like in a non cultural game: even though the National Epic is only contributing one point per turn, it contaminates the pool just as strongly as hiring an artist does.

It may not always have been that way, but that's the current state of affairs in Warlords 2.08 and Vanilla 1.61
Well, thanks to you - and Malekithe - for clarifying things.