Ok, well I'm going to try and post my next couple games playing with the Spec Econ. I'm going to try certain variants of it and some cottage-based games for comparison.

The first will be with Alex (Phil/Agg) and I'm going to go for a fast domination win. Edit: Game settings Normal speed, Monarch difficulty, Continents map.

I forgot the starting save, I apologize. However, I have the opening screen shot and a few other saves and screen shots. I look forward to any comments.

This game is not so much a "let's all play together" kind of game. I'm mainly trying to showcase how I play the spec econ so that it can be subject to scrutiny. I will appreciate any feedback as it goes along, however.

So, here is my first hour of play...

4000BC: Settled in place
3800BC: Popped agriculture from hut in capital los
3680BC: Mining researched
3640BC: Popped 37 gold from hut
3520 BC: Shaka met
3440 BC: Monty met and located to the west
3280 BC: Shaka located to the north
3040BC: Popped 46 gold from hut
Somewhere in here I researched bronze, forgot to note the date
2920BC: Scout killed by lion
2720BC: Masonry researched
2440BC: Mysticism researched
2360BC: Sparta founded (See screenshot)
2120BC: The wheel researched
1840BC: Converted to Monty's hinduism to try and keep him peaceful
1720BC: Animal husbandry researched
1420BC: Archery researched to combat barbs
1200BC: Pottery researched for granaries
925BC: Writing researched
775BC: Pyramids built (I would've had them built much sooner, but two things went wrong...1st off, I stretched to get stone hooked up which delayed things more than I had planned, and then some barbs pushed my worker off hooking up the stone for some important turns. However saving some forests on the chopping of the pyramids is still nice...)
675BC: Isabella met
625BC: Corinth founded (See screenshot).
600BC: Police state adopted to catch up on military.
450BC: Converted to no state religion so Isabella would open borders and trade.
350BC: Alphabet researched; traded alpha to monty for ironworking and meditation
200BC: Polytheism researched since I couldn't work out a trade for it
150BC: Gems found on hill near athens
50BC: Parthenon rush-built in Sparta with great engineer
1AD: Declared war on Monty
25AD: Captured Texcoco. Lost 3 axes since it was on a hill. Adopted representation in preparation for my first three cities making the switch to working 2 scientists each.


The game isn't as smooth as I'd like it. I would've liked to have representation sooner than this, but the location of the stone and the barbs interfering with my hooking the stone up kinda put me behind more than I would've liked. However, I think things are still ok. Shaka is kind of annoying in that he doesn't trade with you unless he's your buddy. I'm hoping Issy will get math soon so I can trade her for it before she gets alpha. Once buddhism comes to my lands I'm going to convert to it since she's furthest away and I won't be warring with her anytime soon. Once I cripple or finish Monty I'll be moving on Shaka to the north.

What I'm really hoping to showcase is the research rate during the late classical-early medieval era. And my goal for this game is to get military tradition and gunpowder asap so I can use cavalry to win an early domination game. My strategy will be to use 2 great artists to get divine right and nationalism and then use liberalism on military tradition leaving me with only researching gunpowder and astronomy.

Here are some more screens and 3 saves.

Edit: Actually, it's not letting me upload warlords save files...Anyone know if there is a way to upload them?

Thanks!

I think posting screenshots of your major cities will be more informative than map overviews. This way we can see what specialists are being run and what buildings you've chosen to produce.

Here are some more screens and 3 saves.

Edit: Actually, it's not letting me upload warlords save files...Anyone know if there is a way to upload them?

Thanks!
From what I understand they have to be zipped to be uploaded right now. I think I read somewhere that changing the file extension to .txt works as well, but I'm not sure about that one.

I think posting screenshots of your major cities will be more informative than map overviews. This way we can see what specialists are being run and what buildings you've chosen to produce.


Also, info on the economy, such as net beakers/gold/hammers, every so often.

Changing the file extension to .txt does work for posting Warlords saves. Whoever downloads it just has to change the extension back again.

By the looks of it you're going to be running Athens with all cottages as your gold specialised city? The gems should help there. The terrain, particularly round Sparta is very food poor though, which is likely to cause some problems for an SE.

^^yeah, i'm not a huge fan of the terrain, but to be honest this whole game isn't 'best case scenario'. i think that's ok though, as long as people don't judge it as being best case scenario. i thought about starting a new game, since i'm posting it, but thought hey what the heck, let's see how it works under less than ideal conditions. how does that sound?

guys, i'll try and post better screenshots of the cities and stuff like that after i play some more tonight. i just wanted to get things up and running first so those screens would be worthwhile. just wanted to give a lay of the land right now.

ok, without further ado, here's the 2nd hr from last night...war on monty...

100AD Literature
300AD Metal Casting
350AD 2nd scout killed
350AD Priesthood
400AD Captured Teotihuacan
475AD Great Artist born and saved for later
500AD Drama; traded metcast to issy for math, sailing, and monotheism
580AD Great Library built in Corinth (later than i'd like, but it's cuzza the delay with pyramids, etc.); captured Calixtlahuaca
600AD Academy built in Corinth
640AD Music; Great artist born and saved for later
700AD Captured Xochicalco
760AD Construction; great engineer born, which i used to rush-build national epic in corinth
800AD Traded Lit and Drama to issy for calendar
820AD Captured Tlaxcala; great general born


I've attached an overview screenshot of my takeover of monty's lands. Tonight I'm going to crank some catapults and finish him off.

Things are slower going than I'd like, but I'm starting to feel like things are picking up now that I'm under representation and have a number of cities running 2 scientists, plus a super science city with 2 scientists, GL, and NE. I'm hoping things will *really* perk up once I use the 2 GAs to nab Divine Right and Nationalism while using liberalism to net military tradition. Once those cavalry come out, I'm hoping I can really go to town. We shall see...

Better screenshots coming soon!

but thought hey what the heck, let's see how it works under less than ideal conditions. how does that sound?

I'd rather see it under less than ideal conditions than under ideal conditions. Of course you can make it work when every city has a food surplus of 16 and 20 hammers per turn. Any strategy works under those conditions. What really proves the merit of the approach and what really has some teaching value is how you adapt when the map generator throws you a curveball.

Are the Great artiss being born in the Parthenon city, and are you running artists because you said you would run 2 scientists in each city.
I noticed that Corinth has no food resources, but this is going to be your superscience city . Any chance of a cityscreenshot of this ?

Which cities are supposed to be what specialisation?

I'll add my voice to the calls for City Screen shots too.

One strategy I've been playing around with for getting the Rep quicker is to b-line to Metal Casting then build a forge and assign a engeneering specialist and make your first GP a great engineer. Though I'm not sure if this can work without Philisophical.

One strategy I've been playing around with for getting the Rep quicker is to b-line to Metal Casting then build a forge and assign a engeneering specialist and make your first GP a great engineer. Though I'm not sure if this can work without Philisophical.
This gambit is rather risky and may prove either too slow if you research MC the normal way or requires a considerable commitment of your resources if you get it through Oracle (essentially, you need to first detour into Mysticism-Polytheism-Priesthood, which deprives you of early Writing and Pottery; then you need to complete Oracle; and then you need to get a Forge and an engineer running in a different city within a very narrow time limit from building the Oracle, to make sure your first GP is an engineer, rather than a great prophet generated by the Oracle).

A better alternative, offered by Warlords, imo, is to get to Masonry, but build the Great Wall, instead of the Pyramids, and then wait for the GE generated by the Great Wall to build the Pyramids. While it is not necessarily faster than building the Pyramids from scratch (i.e. using this method you would get the GE for Pyramids about the same time as you would if you built it in the first place instead of the Great Wall), especially if you have Stone, you free up some production (I think GW costs 250, and Pyramids 450) which you can use to build the infrastructure while waiting for the GE to appear. Plus, if for some reason you get beaten to Pyramids by someone else before you get the GE, you do not lose any production over the lost wonder race.

As with the MC-Forge gambit, this tactics really has a good chance of working when you are Philosophical. But then again, being Philosophical or Industrious (for wonders - then you don't need to worry about Pyramids building strategy since you simply build it from scratch) is imo the only way of having a meaningful SE.

you free up some production (I think GW costs 250, and Pyramids 450) which you can use to build the infrastructure while waiting for the GE to appear.

Your cost figures are correct. You also indirectly free up even more production, since the protection from barbarians means you can afford to neglect your military to a degree. I'm not saying you should have no military (especially not if Montezuma is nearby :)), but since pillaging isn't a concern, you can ignore fogbusters, and you can afford a weaker defensive detail.

Another benefit of this approach is that once The Pyramids are built, you have two wonders that produce engineer points. That means that a) you'll get your second great engineer in the same number of turns it took to get the first and b) you're likely to get another one or two before the game is over.

Would it have made sense to use your GE to rush the GL instead of the parthenon, or do you find the parthenon to be necessary even when you are ready philosophical?

Would it have made sense to use your GE to rush the GL instead of the parthenon, or do you find the parthenon to be necessary even when you are ready philosophical?
I would say it depends. GL is more useful, however it's easier to win a wonder race to it, since you can beeline for Literacy more effectively than for Polytheism, which is discovered very early on.

So basically if:
1) you manage to get your GE early enough to build the Parthenon, and
2) you are more or less confident you will manage to build the GL without using a GE (e.g. you have Literacy already and noone else has Alphabet yet)

then I would use the GE to build the Parthenon. Otherwise I would use him (or keep him if you don't have Literacy yet) to build the Great Library.

Guys, I played a couple more hours on this game and I must say that 1) I'm playing poorly, 2) I didn't do a great job taking screens and noting # of beakers produced, and 3) I noticed some things I would like to do differently.

So, I'm going to start over with Alexander, play better (this was my first game back from a 2.5 week vacation...), take better screens and notes, and change some things up.

One thing I'm going to change is using the GE to build the GL. This game had some early problems that kinda snowballed on me. The stone made the pyramids later rather than earlier because of its location, which meant GL came later, and everything else was just coming a little bit later still. The other thing was that since I used the GE on the Parthenon I ended up getting extra artists down the road that I didn't want (no, I wasn't running any artists...). I figure storing a couple artists for centuries isn't as effective as getting some GSs into my super science city earlier.

Long and the short of it is I'm going to start over and give you a better game. I don't care whether it's ideal conditions or not, but I simply have to play better if I want to represent this strategy properly!

Sorry, but I hope the 2nd game turns out better :)

Well, I see no problems with perfecting this. Just keep us posted! :)

A couple of questions:
- what are you going to do about the National Epic? It also gives Great Artist points. Still planning to build it in the GL city?
- since you're playing Warlords, have you thought of building the Great Wall, getting a GE, building the Pyramids with it, etc.? It's been talked about in a couple of threads (edit: even here, had I bothered to look ;) ), and seems doable with a Philosophical leader without wasting (a lot of?) time. Do you think this could be too big of a problem for getting your Academy in the GL city?

The stone made the pyramids later rather than earlier because of its location, which meant GL came later, and everything else was just coming a little bit later still.
This happens a lot with trying to hook up Marble to get an early Oracle. The increase in production speed comes so late that it's seldom faster than trying to rush production with chops + slavery.

I'm surprised you had troubles with Parthenon. By the time a GE is available to rush it I would have expected you to drop it in a 3rd city where you don't plan on running specialists at all- like a heavy production city. Where did you have it exactly this time around?

Eqqman (why do people write "Eggman anyway?), I just went back and read his log. Apparently he did build it in a third city. Athens gets the Pyramids, Corinth the GL and NE, and Sparta the Parthenon. This puzzles me, though. futurehermit, did you get artists out of Sparta or out of Corinth due to the NE being there? I'd think it's the latter.

Eqqman (why do people write "Eggman anyway?), I just went back and read his log. Apparently he did build it in a third city. Athens gets the Pyramids, Corinth the GL and NE, and Sparta the Parthenon. This puzzles me, though. futurehermit, did you get artists out of Sparta or out of Corinth due to the NE being there? I'd think it's the latter.

I've never come out and mentioned it until now but Eggman would be my preference. Frequently when I register for boards Eggman is always snatched up, so I have to settle for Eqqman since it looks similar and is invariably available. Needless to say there is another Eggman registered at CFC, I've never seen any posts from him/her yet so I don't know where they hang out. Both my avatar and signature offer clues to the 'correct' spelling ;).

You're right, National Epic makes more sense for adding extra GAs. That's why I often avoid it until I've popped whatever critical Great People my plan calls for. With Philosophical the first few come quickly enough that you shouldn't have too much pressure to get NA up that fast. Often there is more than enough time to wait until you have Marble hooked up.

Ok, I got the part about the eggs there. ;) The avatar does indeed offer a clue but I have no idea how should the signature be a hint.

I guess delaying NE but still building it can be a better idea than not building it at all. Say, getting the GEs for building GL and maybe the Parthenon, the GS for the GL city academy and maybe a couple of GS. I really wonder, though, if playing aggressively, should you settle the GS in the GL city? I understand not wanting to waste them because they could give you more than the current GS-popped tech, but there comes a time where you can use their full potential on techs and maybe it's better to do so instead of continuing to settle them.

Now that it's been revealed that the GS will bulb at least half again as much as any other type of Great Person, the argument that you can make more out of them from settling is more dubious. On normal speed you'd have to spend 100 turns to earn it back if you managed to get his beakers multiplied up to 15/turn. You won't be able to do this without Oxford or representation, and even then you still need Library + University + Observatory + Academy. After making an Academy or two a better use might be to save every GS you get until you have Education available. Then start popping however many you have on techs to shoot for a fast Artillery. Maybe bulb one on Philosophy to get that pacificsm bonus going.

^^ So GSs produce more beakers when lightbulbing than other great people???!!! That is interesting.

However, I would still probably settle them. The GS techs never seem to be crucial to me and I found that storing great people for centuries wastes what they could've been doing all that time. Maybe lightbulbing philosophy on the way to liberalism, but even then since I don't plan on any great prophets, I find founding religions to be a waste. Better to let the AI found them, shrine them, and then take them.

As for the great artists, I can't remember whether it was the NE or Parthenon that caused it.

As for the great wall, I think the GE is better spent on the GL.

^^ So GSs produce more beakers when lightbulbing than other great people???!!! That is interesting.

However, I would still probably settle them. The GS techs never seem to be crucial to me and I found that storing great people for centuries wastes what they could've been doing all that time.
This would be true for all other Great People except the GS. The margin of extra beakers he provides is enough that after bulbing 2-3 techs you've saved enough beakers to count as an extra free tech. He's flipped so that the default assumption is that settlement is a waste unless you're convinced otherwise from working the numbers- which will take either Oxford/representation plus every other possible science modifier to be in place before you settle. Plus you're looking at 100 or more turns to get the payoff on investment, an unlikely situation as the game goes on. Use the first GS on an Academy and the second possibly on Philosophy then save the rest. I'd dispute the fact that the GS tech line is little used- unless your strategy involves early cessation of research then you're certain to be getting Education, Astronomy, Chemistry, Scientific Method, Physics, etc. The issue is that you're likely in a rush to get other techs first- all the more reason to use your GSs on bulbing to rapidly pick up that line in parallel with your main path of research, instead of constantly having to stop your main branch to go back and pick up the GS techs.

When you have everything going in your super science city you can get 30 beakers from a settled GS, and even before that 15 is not too hard. 100 turns sounds like a lot but a game takes much longer then that and later you'll get it back in closer to 50. On the other hand some of the early techs are expensive and your tech rate is really slow so using one on bulbs makes sense.

When you have everything going in your super science city you can get 30 beakers from a settled GS, and even before that 15 is not too hard. 100 turns sounds like a lot but a game takes much longer then that and later you'll get it back in closer to 50. On the other hand some of the early techs are expensive and your tech rate is really slow so using one on bulbs makes sense.
Key words are *when* you have everything going. And you cannot get 15 without Oxford or representation. 6 * Library * University * Observatory * Academy = 13.5 only. Oxford takes a while to get set up and representation locks you into a civic. The alternative is to supplement your bonuses with a LOT of Monasteries. Having to get both Education and Astronomy before you can even get all the multipliers you need mean there is no way to get within the 100 turn window for earning back the beakers. You're only going to make it if the game is running into Space Race territory.

Eggman you make a good point but with Repersentation you get a base rate of 9 + 4.5 academy + 2.25 library + .9 monastery = 16.65 and that's without Oxford or Observatory. Also I think your hugely underestimating how long a game lasts. 100 turns is only a fraction of a game.

Eggman you make a good point but with Repersentation you get a base rate of 9 + 4.5 academy + 2.25 library + .9 monastery = 16.65 and that's without Oxford or Observatory. Also I think your hugely underestimating how long a game lasts. 100 turns is only a fraction of a game.
*shrug*
A typical game might only be 460 turns (I get this from the victory settings screen). The fraction is then ~20% (1/5!) of the entire game, the first 100 turns of which you might be spending just to even get your first GS that will probably be burned on an Academy. I'm not trying to convince you you're never going to make those beakers back, but you should assume you won't unless you're aware of the circumstances that mean you will. And for further food for thought, keep in mind that if you're doing well and expecting a pre-1900 win, you don't even get the last 150 turns so the game is only going to run ~300 turns!

EDIT: I'm guessing a game on Epic or Marathon might have more turns than Normal, but if the Epic/Marathon speed multipliers also apply to the beakers the GS can bulb, then the logic still holds. If they don't, then you'd definitely have enough turns to make up the beakers on several GSs.

I'm not trying to convince you you're never going to make those beakers back, but you should assume you won't unless you're aware of the circumstances that mean you will.

Actually it seems sort of like you've proven that you will get thoes beakers back. Even if 100 turns is 1/4 the game then that still leaves 3/4's when you'll be making more beakers then if you used the GS to bulb. Look at it this way if it takes 100 turns to get value back for a GS and a game lasts 400 turns then by using the GS to bulb you only get 25% of the maximum value for that GS.

I'm not saying that you should never bulb since getting a few key techs in the early game can have huge lasting ramifications, but it won't result in more beakers long term. Also it's usually a bad idea to get the academy first.

Why should founding an acadamy not be the wisest choice? This is unless you are very early into the game but normally your first GS will pop up after the great library and at that moment your city is propably generating 60 or more beakers already and it will steadily grow.