All Leaders Challenge Game #8: Alexander/Greece

http://www.civfanatics.net/~civrules/Article/Leaders/AlexanderSM.jpg

Pre-Game Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=182226)

Round 0: 4000 BC
Round 0 continued (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4427835&postcount=20)
Round 1: to 2710 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4433561&postcount=42)
Round 1: to 1600 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4445016&postcount=88)
Round 2: to 600 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4458659&postcount=123)
Round 3: to 125 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4466938&postcount=148)
Round 4: to 1030 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4472534&postcount=174)
Round 5: to 1330 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4480649&postcount=200)
Round 6: to 1620 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4491614&postcount=218)
Round 7: to 1824 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4498782&postcount=245)
Round 8: to 1870 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4509673&postcount=268)
Round 9: to 1890 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4521780&postcount=300)
Round 10: to 1938 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4570369&postcount=332)
Round 11: to 1955 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4585717&postcount=359)
Post-Mortem (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4585763&postcount=360)

The idea of the All Leaders Challenge is that I'm going to play a game with each of the Civ IV leaders--mostly the less popular ones--that I haven't tried before. With the help of all the posters who participate, I will attempt to make the most of the leader's traits, starting techs, and UU. Aside from the leader, the other game settings are kept constant, at their defaults, for the sake of comparison. I will post the saved game files, screenshots, and status reports here as the game progresses. Everyone then has a chance to chime in with their strategy ideas, or voice their frustration (or glee) when I make a mistake. ;)

Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and make your own attempt at playing the same game. But if you do play a "shadow game", I kindly request that you refrain from posting spoilers--i.e. any facts or even hints about the map, opponents, and so on--before I'm there myself. I'm trying to play the game as authentically as possible.

In this ALC game, I'm playing as Alexander the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great), leader of Greece. (As I mentioned in the pre-game thread, this will be the last ALC on Prince level. The next one with Huyana Capac of the Incas will be on Monarcy level.)

The beginning is the most important part of the work.
- Plato
Here are the initial game settings:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex4000BC01.jpg

And the starting position:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex4000BC02.jpg

Not a bad start for Alexander, since he starts with fishing and there's a seafood resource right there. There are forests for chopping, several river tiles, a food resource (corn), and a calendar-enabled luxury resource (silk). No stone yet, though. (In the pre-game thread--see the link above--we were discussing making a run for the Pyramids to provide all the government civics to support a specialist economy. Of course, we could go the stoneless Oracle-Metal Casting-Great Engineer route...)

Based upon the resource indicators, we are north of the equator. I think I see tundra peeking out from the edge of the hidden tile just west of the northwest plains hill, so we may be quite far north.

I'm going to say, even before I move the Scout, that I should settle in place. I sacrifice a forest, but I keep all the visible resources and a fresh water bonus thanks to the river. As I mentioned, I'm pretty sure I see tundra NW of me, so I don't think I should move in that direction. It also looks like there's desert south of that eastern grassland hill, so I'd rather not go over there.

However, I've got a Scout and of course I'll move him before making a final decision. So where should he go? North then northwest to verify my suspicions about tundra (and to see if moving to the NW plains hill would be worthwhile)? On to one of the grassland hills to reveal more terrain? Southwest to reveal more of the settle-in-place fat cross?

Also--assuming I build within reach of the Clams, should my first build be a Workboat? I know I'm getting a bit ahead of myself, but I just thought I'd open discussion on that right away.

At any rate, the main thing to discuss is movement of the Scout (which I'll post next) and location of the capital.

Here is the saved game file:

Settle in place. Two good food sources and three (at least) plains hills make Athens It will be able to easily churn out settlers and military while the second city concentrates on the pyramids. If you decide to go by the Oracle/MC-route, building the Oracle there will be no biggie with all those forests arond.

And since the scout can't give you any new information about the starting location with his first two moves, I'd recommend moving him SE-SE, to that grassland hill.

Re city placement: either settle in place or possibly plains hill NNW between clams and corn. Might be worth sending scout to the plains hill first to see what's the other side.
Re objectives: what are you intentions for this game? Specialist economy demo? Faster victory? Something else?

A workboat is a very good investment from the start. Not only can you let the city grow, but you'll have an improvement that also has 2:commerce: . It seems like a waste to move or build anything else first. If you find out that you are on a huge continent you'll always be able to whip a scout to explore more.

Also, with all those hills around you you might get lucky and have copper or iron in your fat cross. That would be something! :)

Not sure about the research path though. If you go Agriculture-Mining-Bronze Working you'll have something to do for a future worker and it will allow fast growth.

About the Scout, once you settle you'll reveal a little more of the map, so I'd let the decision about where to scout until after settling.

Edit: I just loaded your save and it definitely looks like the tile 3N2E from your settler is tundra. With this in mind, I'd scout East then come back SW, and then well, it depends on what you find of course.

However, I've got a Scout and of course I'll move him before making a final decision.

I'm inclined to think that this is an error. You've got a good location for a capital already (ocean access without too many water tiles, fresh water via a river, lots of space for cottages), with desert to the SE and tundra in the NW, I don't like your alternatives much. So I'd be inclined towards settling first, and using that information to guide the scout.

First build? Ug. I hate defering scouts, but the boat does look more important. You can work the plains hill and get a boat in 8 turns with some overflow that you can convert (2P-> 2F+1C). You could slot in a scout (4 turns), but the overflow from the scout isn't enough to shave a turn off the boat. Once the boat is in place, your research rate should look pretty decent.

I just thought of something: what will you build once the worker is completed in the Agri-Mining-BW research scenario? Maybe a scout, maybe a warrior or barracks... Don't know. Maybe after BW you should research Mysticism to be able to start the Stonehenge.

I like VoU's suggestion of building the boat with the forested plains hill. The boost you'll have once you finish the workboat will be quite useful. That said... this could mean you'll have to insert something in the queue to allow the city to grow to size 2 before starting on the worker, otherwise it will get built the brute-force way and with only 1 population. Maybe if you switch techs: Mining-BW-convert to slavery-Agri you could get the worker faster? But this can mean that once the worker is out he won't be able to improve the corn. Maybe you'll get a copper to mine?! Aaaargh... :D

Conclusion: workboat with 3H forested hill, scout/barracks until size 2, worker with clams and corn worked. Research: still like Agri-Mining-BW best.

I'd say settle in place. The surrounding terrain looks dicey, and you may end up just moving around to find out the spot you started on is the best one anyways. And definitely go for a work boat first, while researching Agriculture for the Corn. It's up to you if you want to wait until size 2 for a worker or not. Being on the sea and having unsavory land nearby may also raise the priority of sailing...

[Long-time reader, first-time poster]

I'll add my voice to the settle-in-place brigade. True you lose a forest, but you've got plenty of others to chop and with those three plains hills, plus loads of food to work them, Athens can be a production powerhouse in the early game anyway.

This is possibly a bit premature, but since Alex is a philosophical leader, how about chopping/building both Stonehenge and the Oracle to double up on GPP and do an old-fashioned CS-slingshot? With early bureaucracy, Athens can churn out a stack of Axes/Phalanx to stomp on your unfortunate neighbours in no time at all.

Plan for the Great Library. A very good investment for a Philosophical leader. I'd stay away from GP points and try to get as many GSs as possible. GS lets you build Academies and you can burn one on Education later, ensuring that you win the Liberalism race. Early MT is very possible.

VoiceOfUnreason is right. Settle in place before you move the scout. Here's why.

The argument for moving the scout first is that theoretically he might reveal something that leads you to regret settling in place. OK, I'll play that game. Where is that hypothetical tile that you'll want to settle on instead?

I postulate that wherever that tile is, you'll still want the capital to have both the clams and the corn. You aren't going to want to move if it costs you one of those two resources, especially since at this point we're still open to the idea of a specialist economy. Of course, you also want to remain on the coast. Otherwise you'll be working the clams with no lighthouse. There are 5 tiles besides the one you're on now that can do that: the 4 visible coastal tiles and the one just south of the clams.

The only one even worth considering among those is the plains hill (if I need to elaborate on this, I can, but I think that much is obvious for various reasons). To work the plains hill, you would need to sacrifice your river bonus, probably add some tundra to your fat cross, and most importantly take on 11 new tiles that aren't in your current capital's fat cross. I'll say that again ... the plains hill capital would sacrifice more than half of your "real" capital's tiles. Given what we know about how the map generator gooses the capital, that's a huge sacrifice. I'll guarantee that you'd be worse off on the plains hill.

Settle in place. Then let's have a look at what's revealed so we can decide where the scout heads.

This is a Vanilla game right? If not, with philosophical leaders I would suggest going with the Great Wall first, no matter what wonders you are looking for. It's really cheap, useful, and generates you a GE pretty quickly which you can use to get more GE wonders like the Pyramids. I did this in my last Monarch game with Alex and it worked quite well. I probably had 3 GEs before I even build forges.

The start looks pretty good so I would settle in place and see how that directs your scout. Looks like most of the useful land will be SW.

I think the consensus is settle in place, which is probably the best decision.

Instead of just working the plains hill like VoU said, I would alternate that with the silk, once the borders pop. I forget the values of a workboat and a scout, but I would try to micro so that the scout is built on the same turn that you reach 2 pop. That way you don't have to waste turns on a barracks or something while waiting to hit 2 pop to start the worker.

You might not have to do much micro at all, if you switch to the clams as soon as the boat is built, since then you'll have a total of 7f/1p/2c, meaning that you'll gain food much faster than build the scout. You might be best just working the plains hill for the boat, and then alternating the hill and the clams to time the scout.

I'll second settle in place before moving the scout. Definitely your strongest opening move. As for the scout, I'd move him southeast twice to the hill for best visibility, unless settling your city reveals something more interesting.

Move W SW with the scout first, I might change your opinion, and it doesn't cost anything.

Move W SW with the scout first, I might change your opinion, and it doesn't cost anything.

There's an opportunity cost, maybe not much, but it's there. The issue is that the tiles that will reveal (the 2 tiles south of the clams) will be revealed anyway when you ultimately decide to settle in place. So what you've lost is one turn of scouting.

If you can convince me that move really might change the decision on settling in place, then I'll concede that it's worth it, but what is it you're expecting to see over there? Let's say, hypothetically, that you spot stone or a cow over there. Why would you move the settler based on that? Again, those two tiles will already be in the city's radius, even if you settle in place. I'd say, "Hey, great! Stone!" and then settle right where the settler is standing now.

I'd say Scout to NW Plains hill for sight (in the one direction that you could move and keep the resources), and then Settle either in place Or on the plains hill spot doesnt look better.

Option 2: move the Scout to the Grassland hill (all by itself) and settle in place

Whether you settle in starting spot or plains hill this looks like a good opportunity to practice your whipping skills. Maybe build fishing boat and head towards bronze-working?

Well, the overwhelming majority says settle in place, and who am I to argue with the masses?

Seriously, in addition to all the points above, there is one other thing, you're going to lose the fresh water bonus unless you go to the other river, but that gives you a whole bunch of plains tiles you dont want.

Instead of just working the plains hill like VoU said, I would alternate that with the silk, once the borders pop. I forget the values of a workboat and a scout, but I would try to micro so that the scout is built on the same turn that you reach 2 pop. That way you don't have to waste turns on a barracks or something while waiting to hit 2 pop to start the worker.

Scout 15 :hammers:
Workboat 30 :hammers:

My concern here is that the value of a scout drops with time - he's got two windows, really (one before the AI beats you to the good huts, and one after Writing). So my usual drill is to hurry it along as fast as I can, or not bother at all.

Growing to size two shaves off two turns of time building the worker, and starts five turns later. I find it hard to believe that's an edge worth micromanaging.

Round 0 continued

I agreed with the group consensus and settled in place:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex4000BCb01.jpg

That done, I chose a Workboat as my first build and changed the tiles worked by my first and only citizen to speed up its production:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex4000BCb02.jpg

Then it was back to the Scout. Since the city's first border pop will reveal the contents of the tribal village, I decided to leave it for now. The city's founding revealed, as I suspected, tundra to the northwest, so that direction was not appealing; remember the primary objective of a scouting unit is to reveal the best sites for your next couple of cities. So I decided to sent the Scout onto the grassland hill to the northeast, with the idea of sending him in a clockwise circle to explore the east, then the south, from there. Here's what he revealed:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex4000BCb03.jpg

It looks like I've been handed a challenging start along the lines of the Mao and Loius ALC games: a good site for the capital but not much else. Tundra to the north, desert at the other three points of the compass. There is one flood plains tile to the east; let's cross our collective fingers and hope for more.

I like the research order of Agriculture followed by Bronze Working, and building a Scout (maybe even a couple of them) as the city grows to pop 2, then a Worker.

To answer a couple of previous questions:

suspendinlight, I have not purchased Warlords and probably won't for some time. Money issues; c'est la vie. So it's vanilla, no Great Wall. :(

pigswill, I liked your idea in the pre-game thread of bowing out of Prince with a bang, so yes, I'd like to try for the earliest win with the biggest score possible. Now, how to achieve that...?

Well, unless the Scouts or the 1st border pop reveals something more promising, I think the surrounding terrain rules out a MC/Pyramids shot. I don't see a good location for the 2nd city within 3 tiles of the capital yet. Maybe to the south, but with all that desert on either side, I doubt it.

Nevertheless, Alex is Philosophical, so some attempt at a Specialist Economy makes sense. If the surrounding terrain turns out to be more of the same--plains and desert--it will be hard to run too many specialists, though. So some sort of hybrid economy may be necessary.

I'll make a final decision once more terrain is revealed and everyone weighs in, however.

I like the research order of Agriculture followed by Bronze Working

Well, you need to slot Mining in there somewhere first....

I'm not sold on Agriculture right now. Yes, the corn is sitting right there, but you aren't particularly close to having a worker ready to go, you don't have health issues right now, you don't have any good ways to convert the excess of food to something valuble, so there's no particular urgency. Note that fishing means you can get Pottery before Agriculture.

If you are going Worker first (still interesting), then you can build the worker in 15 turns, then chop the boat in 4 more, mine the plains hills to convert the food to hammers, get a farm built and kick out a settler at size four or five. That would suggest Mining -> BW -> Agriculture.

The play I think really needs some thought is to rush to a library. What's the fastest way to get two specialists running?

pigswill, I liked your idea in the pre-game thread of bowing out of Prince with a bang, so yes, I'd like to try for the earliest win with the biggest score possible. Now, how to achieve that...?

Well, unless the Scouts or the 1st border pop reveals something more promising, I think the surrounding terrain rules out a MC/Pyramids shot. I don't see a good location for the 2nd city within 3 tiles of the capital yet. Maybe to the south, but with all that desert on either side, I doubt it.

Nevertheless, Alex is Philosophical, so some attempt at a Specialist Economy makes sense. If the surrounding terrain turns out to be more of the same--plains and desert--it will be hard to run too many specialists, though. So some sort of hybrid economy may be necessary.

I'll make a final decision once more terrain is revealed and everyone weighs in, however.

If the main thing to shoot for is a fast win, then I'm not convinced that specialists will be the way to go. Unless Stone pops up in a very convenient location, making the Pyramids is going to take hammers that could be better spent building your first army. Being Philosophical though you will want to run some kind of specialists, either just fill up Libraries in every city to focus on getting GSs to bulb techs or have some running priests or both. GPs you can settle.

I would focus on making Athens a production powerhouse as soon as you can and move down the tech path to Guilds. Try to complete Oracle and claim Metal Casting, but this time without such a rush to get the Forge done. Allow the GP to come first so that you use him on Civil Service and use the GE on Machinery instead of Pyramids. You're then left researching Monarchy, Code of Laws, Feudalism, and Guilds. Finish with Animal Husbandry + Horseback Riding or Alphabet to try and trade for one or both of them to open Knights. You use hereditary rule instead of representation to get unlimited growth in Athens so you're squeezing out as many hammers as you can. Your second or third city can focus on cottages to help with the tech rate, although Athens has enough grassland to support a few in addition to Workshops. With a higher max pop in the capital you won't have to decide quite so much between making hammers or commerce.

Keeping everything you capture will probably be impossible so you'll be doing more razing than usual. I'd also change your pattern of fighting one guy until he's finished off. This hasn't done much beyond leave you with opponents who are progressively tougher to fight. Try expanding more equally against everybody who is on your continent. You'll be more likely to have to deal with the annoying situation where the AIs are replacing razed cities, but at least that's 100 hammers that didn't go into military units to fight you, plus it draws defenders out of a city. Of course, if you're the far north guy you may not have much choice unless you use Galleys for a sneak assault. Start using Cease Fires more often so that you're not getting too slowed down in intervals of peace. With what we now know about War Weariness, you can probably declare war on an opponent long before you're ready to attack them offensively. Get them to send their troops into your land so you can kill them without creating unhappiness.

Regardless I would look at Mining-> Bronze-> Agriculture as an opening tech path. Since you are getting a delay in development by making the Workboat you will want to use slavery to speed up production of the Worker and you won't have any problems getting growth to size 2 if you make Workboat-> Scout-> Worker.

If you are going Worker first (still interesting), then you can build the worker in 15 turns, then chop the boat in 4 more,

Unlikely since you can seldom finish Mining + Bronze in 19 turns on these settings without extra commerce. But the Worker can keep himself busy on a Mine while you wait.

Well, he should have the corn improved by the time he starts his first settler, IMO. As for sites....I see Silk and a floodplain. Not terribly impressive, but the river offers hope at least. Well, all the more reason to take land from your "friends" waiting in the fog somewhere :borg:

Well I'm personally in favor of Ag first, just because that food can be put into getting more pop for whiping once you Do have BW or for more rapid production of Settlers.

If Sisiutil goes workboat first then he gets it in 10 turns with no growth; then switches to clams which gives added research while building scout/warrior to grow to pop2 then this is probably going to take 16/17 turns at which point he'd be getting close to bronzeworking (if beelined) so could then look at whipping scout/warrior while using overflow to build worker and researching agric then grow away unhappiness before building settler.

If Sisiutil goes workboat first then he gets it in 10 turns with no growth

8 turns, see his images in the "round 0 continued".

Yup, forgot to include hammer for capital.

The corn right now is less of a priority than it might be otherwise because of the second food resource and the fact that it is not irrigated, so will only become a 5:food: tile.

The floodplains to your east hold some hope for city-sites, I'd suggest moving the scout 2SE to the forest to properly investigate, then 2SW to the grassland hill for optimal efficiency! Or divert if you see something awesome near the forest. We'll know next turn.

Looks like your start-location got sandwiched pretty good. I suspect and I hope though that the southern desert-areas are actually rather thin so that you can settle accross them in the sweet, sweet Edge-of-Jungle lands. Otherwise plan your expansion along the hammer-rich northern fringe.

Sisiutil, do you think it might be worth a couple "lost" turns with the Scout to see just how far that Tundra extends, and what kind of ocean resources are out there? The land five squares east is going to be the same when you get back, and the map generator seems to like hiding goody huts in the midst of otherwise lackluster terrain. If that Tundra goes two more squares north, I'd say there's a good shot at there being a hut up there. I'll let the more experienced hands weigh in on the chances this might deprive you of a hut elsewhere; from the last couple ALC games, I'd say the chances are pretty good there's another civ fairly close by. Since you're around 20 turns or so away from building a second city, I think you'll get the whole area around you scouted out handily. YMMV.

Unlikely since you can seldom finish Mining + Bronze in 19 turns on these settings without extra commerce.

Ouch, right. So if you go scout -> worker (a common opening in my games) it comes out about right, or if you go boat->worker.

I like getting Bronze early. Finding Copper will help decide on where to build the second city.

I vote along with Mining->Bronze Working->Agriculture->The Wheel (if you don't have it already...

Sisiutil, do you think it might be worth a couple "lost" turns with the Scout to see just how far that Tundra extends, and what kind of ocean resources are out there? The land five squares east is going to be the same when you get back, and the map generator seems to like hiding goody huts in the midst of otherwise lackluster terrain. If that Tundra goes two more squares north, I'd say there's a good shot at there being a hut up there.
Well, since it looks like an additional Scout is in the works, given the build orders everyone is recommending, I'll probably send him up there. I agree that the tundra looks like it may be extensive (barbs--oh joy), so that means a goody hut or two.

However, the crucial thing is to map out the surrounding territory so I (a) know where the crucial resources are and (b) can better plan out my future cities. Remember that by finding goody huts in the territory between myself and other civs, I deprive my competitors of them, if nothing else. Since I have a fast-moving Scout, that's yet another way to take full advantage of him.

Okay, I'm convinced--Mining -> BW -> Ag it is. (Thanks, VoU, for reminding me of the prereq. That's what I get for playing as Rome, Russia, or England in most of my offline games...) Builds will be Workboat, Scout, Worker. The Scout, meanwhile, will continue going clockwise as planned.

Tune in tomorrow for the next round!

Sisiutil, one question. Isn't the tundra part still going to be there when you come back? I'd much rather explore a little more toward other civs and leave the useless part of my back yard uncharted. I think you can move a scout up there at one point anyway, but why an early one? If you don't go for an early Iron Working it's pretty sure that you won't build a city up there anytime soon. You'll probably run into a civ on the East, then into jungle in the south, and I don't see much reason to explore there, since you'll be slowed down and any civ that started there has a huge time advantage over you, so finding goody huts in the jungle is a long shot anyway.

Oh well... I guess we're sending you conflicting advice once again! Hurray for team spirit! :D

Isn't the tundra part still going to be there when you come back? I'd much rather explore a little more toward other civs and leave the useless part of my back yard uncharted.

I tend to agree. If you aren't planning on making another scout, then there's an argument to be made for heading up there now while it's on the way to see if there are any goody huts or useful resources (silver, furs, etc.) to be claimed. On the other hand, if you're going to churn out a second scout as one of your first two builds, let that guy take care of the tundra. Send the first scout towards higher priority areas.

I've been lurking since Qin Shi Huang (mainly because I've had nothing to contribute until now), and with Alex I was going to suggest a MC slingshot with the Oracle, and run an Engineer from a Forge in another city. This way, you get a guaranteed GE and GP (from the Oracle), which you can use to research Machinery and Civil Service (after CoL) respectively. This will give you Macemen a lot earlier than usual, and CR1/2 (after battle XP) and Combat 1 Maces won't need Catapults to rip through cities defended by Archers. This way you can miss Construction for a while.

The main problem I see with this is that Macemen are quite expensive that early in the game.

Anyway, keep up the good work Sisiutil!

That actually seems like a neat thing to try... biggest disadvantage I see is the CoL Cost. But it wouldn't have to be like the Pyramids gambit, where you need to get the Forge X turns after the Oracle, since you want Both of them.

That actually seems like a neat thing to try... biggest disadvantage I see is the CoL Cost. But it wouldn't have to be like the Pyramids gambit, where you need to get the Forge X turns after the Oracle, since you want Both of them.
My experience has been that it turns out almost exactly like MC/P. The problem is that you have no further way to increase the supply of GE points, so you have a long gap between the production of the GP and GE if you allow the GP to come first. If you can make the GE come first, then you can often speed things up by running a priest (or more than one, if you're really lucky) in the Oracle city to get the GP out. The best you can do otherwise is to get things timed out so that you have just less than 100 GPP in the GE city when the GP appears so that you still only have ~100 GPP to go, but even waiting this long is excessive in my view. Especially if you tried this w/o Philosophical :eek:.

Well, there's be no other way to increase GP points either unless you happen to get a religion in Athens. As long as you get the Engineer running eight turns after the Oracle is finished, you get your GP with 96 GE points in the engineer city, which is what I think you're suggesting, that gives you a GE 18 turns after the GP. I don't play Standard speed so I can't say if that is long or not.

If you beeline CoL you still have a chance of founding Confucianism; its basically the same odds as a CS oracle slingshot except you don't have to time oracle to coincide with discovering CoL.

Well, there's be no other way to increase GP points either unless you happen to get a religion in Athens. As long as you get the Engineer running eight turns after the Oracle is finished, you get your GP with 96 GE points in the engineer city, which is what I think you're suggesting, that gives you a GE 18 turns after the GP. I don't play Standard speed so I can't say if that is long or not.
Actually that could work out really nicely.

Build axes/swords to fight the first war whilst waiting for the GE to pop and then use the plunder money from that to instantly upgrade to an army of CR2/3 maces for the second. No need to pause the conquest, which should make liberating this continent quite speedy, allowing for a streamlined beeline to astronomy.

Round 1: to 2720 BC

I started researching Mining right away. I sent the Scout due east of Athens, then started curling him around in a clockwise direction. He found a tribal village along the way, and some flood plains, too:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex2720BC_01.jpg

I was relieved to see the floodplains, but there's still a heckuvalot of desert tiles over there. I'm hoping one of you folks will take it upon yourself to dotmap this mess for me, 'cuz I'm kind of stumped.

That goody hut just south of Athens popped along with the capital's borders. I got a free tech! Guess which one?

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex2720BC_02.jpg

Hmmm, yeah, thanks... y'know, I was only three turns away from getting that on my own... Maybe I shoulda researched Agriculture first. Oh well. Three turns is three turns. I started researching Bronze Working a little bit earlier thanks to my "free technology".

My Scout reached the west coast just south of Athens, then turned around (dodging a barb bear along the way) and started another swing back through the south. Along the way, he met the first of the neighbours:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex2720BC_03.jpg

Have we seen Mao in one of the ALCs yet? Besides the one where I played as him? I'm asking because as you'll see, I'm not exactly up against the usual suspects.

The Workboat finished in Athens and I started building my 2nd Scout. With the clams being worked, the city increased to 2 pop pretty quickly:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex2720BC_04.jpg

A few turns later, I finished researching Bronze Working and changed civics to Slavery. And I have some extremely good news:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex2720BC_05.jpg

Copper in the fat cross! Oh happy day, caloo calay! Especially since Alexander's UU requires copper. This is almost as good as having Iron in Rome's fat cross. :goodjob: It doesn't quite make up for the rest of the nearby terrain being so sucky, but it helps.

My southern Scout encountered another foreign leader:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex2720BC_06.jpg

You see what I mean? We haven't encountered Saladin too often in the ALCs either. But there he is, stroking his beard thoughtfully beneath that funky oil-funnel hat.

As suggested, I decided to have the second Scout tour the frozen wastes of the North. I don't hold out much hope for goody huts, though:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex2720BC_07.jpg

I'm really not sure how that slow-moving Chinese Warrior found his way up north so fast. I'm beginning to think that China is somewhere to my east (the far east?) rather than south or southwest. But my scout did find silver, marble, and crabs up there, all within a potential fat cross. So sooner or later, I'll be founding the Greek city of "Iceberg". (Heh. Iceberg...get it? See, some city names end with "-berg" and... oh, it's not funny if you have to explain it!)

And the third squatter on my continent reared her ugly head:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex2720BC_08.jpg

Last time we saw Vicky was in the Hatshepsut game, and the Qin game before that, making this her 3rd appearance in the ALCs as an opposing Civ, IIRC. (Speaking of England, have we seen Elizabeth in an ALC yet? I've got this thing for redheads...) Anyway, since I met up with Vicky's Warrior a good ways southeast of Arabia, I'm betting that's where she's located.

But like I said, not exactly the usual suspects. I seem to rarely encounter these three in my own games, let alone the ALCs. It's usually Huayna, Monty, Cyrus, Hatty, and so on. Although I have now seen Vicky more often in the ALCs than I have on my own. Strange. But not relevant.

The real point is that none of these three are exactly intimidating. If I'm planning on warmongering--which I am--then I could time my wars based upon denying these three access to their UUs. If Mao is indeed just to my east, he would likely be my first target, to ensure he never gets to the medieval era and those nasty Cho-Ko-Nus. Then Saladin, though his Camel Archers don't exactly instill the fear of Allah into anybody. And I gotta get to Vicky way before she gets near Rifling and those troublesome Redcoats.

As my Scout was exploring, he spotted a goody hut in the distance, and of course I went and popped it.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex2720BC_09.jpg

Curiouser and curiouser. I popped a hut for a Warrior, on Prince no less. That doesn't happen to me very often since I left Warlord level. The Warrior, alas, was very short lived. I was going to see if I could use him to steal a Worker from Saladin, perphaps, since Scouts can't do that. He ventured into the forest to the east of the hill where he came into the world and was immediately attacked by a lion. He then dragged his bloodied hide to the forested hill one tile south of his former hutty home, so that he could heal in a safe place. Ha! A panther made short work of him a couple of turns later. Good thing I got some gold and a half-decent map from a couple of other huts or I'd be totally cursing my luck with the stupid things in this game.

Anyway, back home, when the Worker was one turn from completing, I whipped him and put the overflow into a barracks. Given how cheap those are for Aggressive Alex, it finished in one turn (which is also all Athens needed to get back to 2 pop). So I sent the Worker to immediately start work on the copper while I researched the Wheel. Once the copper is on-line, I can start churning out Axes and Phalanxes along with Settlers.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex2720BC_10.jpg

Yes, I decided to build one more Scout. My northern Scout has had a rough time, encountering wolves one the snowpack twice. It's earned him a Woodsman I promotion, but he's had to stop to heal for about 4 turns twice now. My southern Scout has had a similar experience. As a result, much of the area directly east of Athens has still not been explored. That will be this fellow's job. If I still have some turns before the copper is available, I'll start work on a Settler.

I also chose Mysticism as my next research target. My thinking is to either build Obelisks or Stonehenge for culture and border pops, as well as teching towards the Oracle. Now, if anyone thinks I should research something else, by all means, chime in. As you can see, I stopped the game at this point with no research done so that I can switch if someone has a better suggestion.

Here's a look at the map:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex2720BC_11.jpg

Like I said, I'm pretty much cut off from the south for a while by that large swath of desert. I was thinking of putting a city 5 tiles due east of Athens to claim the cow tile and 5 of the flood plains, though I'd get 2 useless peaks and 2 equally useless desert tiles in there as well. The only other two potential city sites I've revealed are ones that I normally wouldn't even think about using until much later in the game: Iceberg, 2S of the crabs, and something in the vicinty of the fish and cows to Athens' west. The wheat and stone to Athens' south are pretty awkwardly located with all those desert tiles around them.

This is gonna be a tough map. The good news is that there is a lot of choice grassland terrain further south. The bad news is it's going to be awhile before I can make use of it. Of course, Saladin and Vicky will probably build some cities there for me. Very nice of them, don't you think? This also will very likely be one of those games where I end up moving the capital.

I played a shadow game and was a "little" luckier with the goody huts. I popped 2 (two, deux, zwei) scouts from them, the first one from the hut popped by the cultural border. I was going workboat (no growth)-worker anyway. All this to say one thing: don't beat yourself about researching Mining first. Everything that you change can mean that the goody huts give you something else. My take on this? Better 3 turns off Mining than a map. :) In one game I had 2 maps of mostly ocean tiles, imagine how happy I was... :wallbash:

Advice for the North: don't settle there until you've researched Iron Working. In many games I've found Iron in the tundra, though it is by no means guaranteed. I don't remember if it can pop on ice too, so a Crabs-Silver-Marble-Iron city may be a bit too much to hope for...

Research-wise, I'd say Mysticism is not the priority here. Seeing what tiles you have for a second city, I'd go for Animal Husbandry to reveal horses. Also, since Agriculture gives you a bonus toward AH and lets you farm the corn, why not go Agriculture-AH?

Also, don't delay expanding too much. Another scout is probably ok, but: you're wasting worker turns, when a worker could have built a mine on the copper for fast production and a farm on the corn for fast whip recovery, and your first settler is a while away. As you can see, building Stonehenge will come later anyway, so you'll have time to research it after Agri-AH.

It has been said that the farmed corn is only 5 food, but since you may grow from 1 to 2 and from 2 or 3 to 4, I think it's worth it.

Ok, I'm kinda a rookie at dot-mapping(just noticed that my dot-map is dotless :mischief: ), but heres my attempt:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a221/sigmakan/dotmap-ALC8.jpg

I'd settle the red spot first and have it be your super science city or GS farm. Not sure what your plan is at the moment. Are you going all out SE or a CE with a GS farm?

After the red dot, well not sure which to go to next, they are all kinda mediocre(at best). Chances of getting hot pink are pretty slim cause Saladin is right there. I'd go for cyan next I guess. Its got a lot of desert in it, but it also has 5 resources in it.

Crappy map. Usually when I see a huge desert next to me I restart :lol:

How can you call teal a crappy city? It has cows and wheat for extra food, it has stone for a nice production and 2 silk for enough commerce. It will be able to work all 5 resources. Rough count nets me in at 13f/10h/10c at size 5. That is all you need to have it going nicely (ok you need calendar for this but even without it you will have enough food and production). About the dotmap Sigmakan, you read my mind. Nice one.

Sisiutil, I do think you are complaining a little too much about the map. The most important part is going to be your start and all cities will have enough food and/or production possibilities. Red is your science center, teal is a good production site, etc... They may not be able to work all tiles later on but then you should be already far enough ahead and have conquered some other capitals to off set the not so good start, but still it has more then enough potential especially when horses show up and iron. Good luck conquering.

BTW I am trying out the SE/CE hybrid and it is working like a charm. Never had cavalry before at 1300 AD. It feels like stealing candy from a little child since the others only have longbowmen :))))

I'd settle the red spot first and have it be your super science city or GS farm.

I think if you are going to use this location for GP farming, you want to place it one tile east (on the floodplain, rather than on the grassland tile).

Checking the tiles one by one, you get:
desert -> floodplains
grassland hill -> desert hill
grassland -> grassland forrest
river plains -> grassland
river plains -> ?? (looks like grassland)
floodplains -> river grassland (this is the city tile)

rearranging a bit
desert -> desert hill
floodplains -> floodplains
grassland -> grassland
river plains -> river grassland
river plains -> ?? grassland ??
grassland hill -> grassland forrest

For a GP farm, the first three items break even, and the last three look like wins (two extra food and an extra farm)

Green city is naff; rest look ok; Saladin will beat you to purple/magenta; blue city looks for good for HE /WP; red city very nice for commerce; yellow and teal good for resources. Its a lot better than first glance might suggest.

Banana, rice And Gems Look Nice but too far away (seems like a long shot) if you can start workin on the gems and the silver in da north quickly enough it'd boost your research and maybe you could pick up Codes of law to Settler Spam easier...lol

The Warrior, alas, was very short lived. I was going to see if I could use him to steal a Worker from Saladin, perphaps, since Scouts can't do that. He ventured into the forest to the east of the hill where he came into the world and was immediately attacked by a lion. He then dragged his bloodied hide to the forested hill one tile south of his former hutty home, so that he could heal in a safe place. Ha! A panther made short work of him a couple of turns later.

He's like the Neanderthal man version of that friend we all have that attracts all the mosquitos from miles around while nobody else gets a bite. "Is anyone else getting bitten?" "No, Yorg, I'm fine." "Really? Because I'm getting eaten alive out here!" :)

Both stone and marble available in the nearby vicinity. Methinks the Sisiutil doth protest too much.

Advice for the North: don't settle there until you've researched Iron Working.

I mostly agree, though not so much for the iron itself. There's only one place you can put that city to claim all 3 currently visible resources, and you clearly won't have enough food to work silver, marble, and iron, so the only way I see iron influencing the placement of that city is if it turns out to be the only available iron for miles around, which I hope is unlikely.

More importantly, you want to wait since it's more critical to deny the better and nearer sites from the AI. Also, a significant part of "Iceberg's" value is going to come from the happiness benefits of the silver. Silver means +1 and later +2 population in all your other cities, so the more cities you have first, the more useful Iceberg becomes.

Nonetheless, I think you should settle there earlier than you probably think. Long term, that city can work 5 coastal tiles, 1 ocean, silver, marble, and one windmilled hill before it stagnates. With a lighthouse, I believe that's 20 commerce (19 until the windmill) and 6 hammers per turn at population 9 and with a crab to grow back quickly after whipping. That's never going to be a powerhouse for you, but 9 population is all you'll be able to manage for a pretty long time. Factor in the power of the silver, crabs, and marble (easier Great Library!), and that will be a pretty alright city for you.

How can you call teal a crappy city? It has cows and wheat for extra food, it has stone for a nice production and 2 silk for enough commerce. It will be able to work all 5 resources. Rough count nets me in at 13f/10h/10c at size 5. That is all you need to have it going nicely (ok you need calendar for this but even without it you will have enough food and production). About the dotmap Sigmakan, you read my mind. Nice one.

Sisiutil, I do think you are complaining a little too much about the map. The most important part is going to be your start and all cities will have enough food and/or production possibilities. Red is your science center, teal is a good production site, etc... They may not be able to work all tiles later on but then you should be already far enough ahead and have conquered some other capitals to off set the not so good start, but still it has more then enough potential especially when horses show up and iron. Good luck conquering.

BTW I am trying out the SE/CE hybrid and it is working like a charm. Never had cavalry before at 1300 AD. It feels like stealing candy from a little child since the others only have longbowmen :))))

I totally agree with Killroyan on his points. The teal city can be quite good, and the dotmap Sigmakan drew is exactly what I would have done (but with dots :)).

Sisiutil, I also need you to suck it up about the map. You're not hurting. Look at how awesome Athens is. Teal can be quite good (is stone for the pyramids in the plan?). Pink has Marble for the parthenon. you've got a good start here, imho. Oh, and that iceberg joke didn't work in ALC 3 (I think it was 3) and it doesn't work now. Let it die. ;)

If you're going for the pyramids, settle teal first. It can start working on them right away. Just explore the eastern side of its BFC. Its placement can be altered if there's a treat like horses there.

Yeah, teal looks pretty good. Definitely one of those mongrel cities, but the stone is particularly juicy. Always nice to have stone. If you want the 'Mids, you definitely want to get down there quick...

Sisiutil, I also need you to suck it up about the map. You're not hurting.

I think you need to play a few games on maps like this before you're comfortable with it. I had a run of about 5 games where the best start I had was about like this one. After totally dominating in all of them, I realized that map quality can be very deceptive.

If you have copper and 3 or 4 city sites that can grow to about size 6 before struggling, you're OK. In this game, I think you're better than OK. There are very few map problems that a few axemen can't solve.

There are very few map problems that a few axemen can't solve.

This should be a classic. :D

Always nice to have stone. If you want the 'Mids, you definitely want to get down there quick...

I second (third?) the notion of going after the stone first (if the general plan is building the Pyramids instead of capturing them). Even if you're not going for the Pyramids right away, it follows the maxim of expanding towards your enemies. Good idea to build that other scout to find out about east of Red City. It will be nice to know about east of Cyan as well. You could have a nice flying wing of cities to seal off the south from the east, if that cow is paired with another nice resource or two.

I think if you are going to use this location for GP farming, you want to place it one tile east (on the floodplain, rather than on the grassland tile).

I agree in moving it one east, but only if there is a way to chain irrigate to those grasslands in the east. From what we can see in the map right now, I dont think there is a way to chain irrigate to those grasslnda tiles. They are blocked off from the river by mountains/desert/hills.

Going for stone built pyramid means settling city, building quarry, making roads. Teal looks to have pretty naff production so probably looking at building pyramids in athens. Sounds a lot of turns.
Alternatively go oracle / metal-casting /forge while beelining CoL. Makes use of philosphical trait. You don't get bonus for forge like you do with industrious so that's a problem.
Alternatively forget pyramids, go for CS slingshot while building some axes/phalanxes for early war.
No obviously right solution.

Teal looks to have pretty naff production

At size 1, you'll work the plains cows for a total in the city of +3 food and 4 hammers per turn. At size 2 you'll add in the stone for +2 food, 8 hammers. At size 3 you'll work the wheat for +4 food, 9 hammers. At size 4 you'll work the hill (looks like grasslands to me) for +3 food, 12 hammers and at least one forest chopped. I don't think that seems like bad production. You're averaging 3 hammers per tile, which is about as good as it gets. Beyond size 4 you can work the silks for 2 hammers if you haven't chopped down the forests or 1 if you have.

Border expansion is an issue. You'll need to build an obelisk before any of this can happen, but I don't see production as an obstacle.

There are very few map problems that a few axemen can't solve.

Here, here!

Teal gives you stone, and a head start towards southern moves. I'd settle there and get your pyramids. It gives you options especially for Specialist/Hybrid economies...

All right, all right, all right! I'll quit complaining about the map! I didn't see a "whine" resource, so I felt obliged to insert my own...

(Better than the Iceberg joke? Or worse? ;) )

Sigmakan, thanks for the dotmap, and everyone else, thanks for the feedback on it. Teal and Red look like my next two cities; let me get my scouts over to those areas to finish exploring and we can then discuss and decide on their exact locations.

Carl Corey--thanks for the input, but please restrain yourself--your post started to read like it contained borderline spoilers; I had to stop reading it.

All right, all right, all right! I'll quit complaining about the map! I didn't see a "whine" resource, so I felt obliged to insert my own...

(Better than the Iceberg joke? Or worse? ;) )


Thirty points lost for outrageous puns
50 points awarded for courage in making outrageous puns
40 points deducted for explaining Iceberg
60 points awarded for not attempting to explain the second pun

Its just that we thought that start location would encourage you to clam up rather than whine.

Should we research Animal Husbandry next or would that be horsing around too much?

Well I don't know about researching Husbandry, I mean we're here with Mao, Saladin and Victoria. Doesn't look like it would open up any pleasant options. If Catherine was here then Husbandry might have far more going for it. Although there are potentially fruitful options, if moving to the south is on our calendar. As long as Sisitul doesn't completely lose his marbles, and if he has the stones to follow through, he should do wonderfully.
;)

I played a shadow game and ended up settling my second city exactly on the magenta spot in the dotmap posted (before I saw the dotmap), for the gems and to deny the copper there to an AI civ... it seemed to work quite well for my strategy, despite being rather distant from the capital... of course I did not attempt the Pyramids and went for the usual cottage based economy (perhaps wasting part of the Philosophical trait???).
OK, just wanted to throw that out there for consideration. Cheers!

Well I don't know about researching Husbandry, I mean we're here with Mao, Saladin and Victoria. Doesn't look like it would open up any pleasant options. If Catherine was here then Husbandry might have far more going for it. Although there are potentially fruitful options, if moving to the south is on our calendar. As long as Sisitul doesn't completely lose his marbles, and if he has the stones to follow through, he should do wonderfully.
;)

Wow. Most impressive. :vomit:

I don't think it is worth hooking up the stone before building the pyramids. Your capital is capable of building the pyramids without help from the stone. It has 2 food resources, bronze, and 2 forest/plains/hills. It also has 7 trees available to chop. At size 5 it can pump out a decent 12 hammers per turn. Of course that will also delay the axe/phalanx rush. Since your aggresive and have bronze in the capital, it may be dumb not to axe-rush. It is a tough choice. But if you do go pyramids, I suggest you build/chop another worker after the settler while researching masonry, then chop the pyramids. It won't take more than 35 turns to build it. I also suggest working the silk right now instead of the bronze.... you will delay your scout by one turn, but you will also grow 1 turn sooner. That way you will be at size 3 when you start the settler.

Use your settler to settle red first and perhaps you can use one of your workers to chop a third worker in the new city before helping with the pyramids. That way you could start improving your new city sooner... but that will also delay the pyramids a little, and will also delay the axerush afterwards. I'm not sure when the AI builds the pyramids on prince.

Carl Corey--thanks for the input, but please restrain yourself--your post started to read like it contained borderline spoilers; I had to stop reading it.

Hmm, I don't think there was anything spoilerish in there. I played up to BW (but started with Agri-Mining-BW), so no additional resources were revealed. I actually explored a little differently than you, but haven't talked at all about what I saw or not in those areas. My talk about Iron and Horses was just hypothetical.

Could someone else read my post and see if I inadvertently slipped it any spoiler? Thanks.

About the Pyramids: yeah, usually linking the stone takes more time instead of less. But if you settle at Teal first and delay improving the cows and wheat and get the Stone linked first, this might actually be better. I won't do the math, though. :p

All right, all right, all right! I'll quit complaining about the map! I didn't see a "whine" resource, so I felt obliged to insert my own...

(Better than the Iceberg joke? Or worse? ;) )


Now you really have to get teal city and hook up the cows so you can have some cheese with that whine ;) (yes I am helping you with making the puns, so I take some heat too. I really like your games, so if I can help I will do it :p) Now play the next set of turns. I would still like to see AH as one of the next researches. 4 cows in the vicinity and horses will pop up close to you, I am almost certain of that (my best guess is green city) and maybe blue will even get iron (wouldn't that make it a great city). Copper is in the bag so you will have axes/phalanxes soon.

...of course I did not attempt the Pyramids and went for the usual cottage based economy (perhaps wasting part of the Philosophical trait???)
It's early Representation for the extra 3 beakers/specialist which really makes a specialist economy. You can still leverage the philosophical trait quite nicely running a cottage/hybrid economy by more easily/quickly popping GS for academies, GP for shrines (if you've got any religions) and GE for "free" wonders.

Added to that, cheap universities (and hence a slightly faster Oxford) are nothing to sniff at.

Could someone else read my post and see if I inadvertently slipped it any spoiler? Thanks.

:p

I think Sisiutil is refering to the bit about 'advice on settling in the North'. He probably didnt realise you were speaking about settling in the North , as a general rule ( because he had to stop reading). It's good to know Sisiutil is playing as honestly as possible. I'm sure your post wasn't a spoiler but you can see how it might seem so at first glance.

Ah, ok, I get it. Anyway, as Dr Elmer Jiggle pointed out, there's only one tile where to place Iceberg (hehe) that would get all the three visible resources anyway and so waiting for Iron wouldn't be that important. Thanks, mice. Oh, and you forgot to cut the smiley at the end! :D

I am Hans Lemurson, and I approve Sigmakan's dotmap.

One of the best parts about slavery is that it will turn the Red city-location into a production powerhouse with minimal investment in infrastructure (floodplains&whips ftw!!!). Furthermore, the river makes resource connections a breeze, so you can make axes there to conquer China.

I'd actually advise building Petropolis (teal location) first and going for the Pyramids. It's not a bad location (at size 3 with all resources developed it will pull in +4:food:,9:hammers:), so you won't really be costing yourself much by building first there. It'll just require a few more worker-turns than otherwise to become fruitful (and get stone connected).

One trick I like to do when playing Alex is to get Writing asap and chop/whip a library in the capital. Then I'll stop whipping and dedicate one citizen as a scientist while the rest focus on production to pump out troops. I usually remove the scientist after building the Great Library.

This can be quite a gamble, as tying up one citizen so early in the game may harm the important production of troops. But since it works on Emperor, I believe it will work on Prince. A GS for an academy that early can be a real boost. Sorry if this sounds a bit off-topic at the moment, but if you want to do this it's about time to start planning for it.

I don't think it is worth hooking up the stone before building the pyramids. Your capital is capable of building the pyramids without help from the stone. It has 2 food resources, bronze, and 2 forest/plains/hills. It also has 7 trees available to chop. At size 5 it can pump out a decent 12 hammers per turn. Of course that will also delay the axe/phalanx rush. Since your aggresive and have bronze in the capital, it may be dumb not to axe-rush. It is a tough choice. But if you do go pyramids, I suggest you build/chop another worker after the settler while researching masonry, then chop the pyramids. It won't take more than 35 turns to build it. I also suggest working the silk right now instead of the bronze.... you will delay your scout by one turn, but you will also grow 1 turn sooner. That way you will be at size 3 when you start the settler.

Use your settler to settle red first and perhaps you can use one of your workers to chop a third worker in the new city before helping with the pyramids. That way you could start improving your new city sooner... but that will also delay the pyramids a little, and will also delay the axerush afterwards. I'm not sure when the AI builds the pyramids on prince.

But with those 35 turns he could easily have the stone Hooked up, a (a delay of maybe 10-12 turns, and that would cut down the remaining `20 turns to ~10, saving 10 turns, and saving some Trees...

Without Stone Pyramid=22.5 Trees (exchange each tree for about 2 turns)
With Stone Pyramid=11.25 Trees (so at Least don't chop any Pyramid trees until you have the Stone hooked up)

Having the Settler then Worker is good, It'll allow you to get the Stone quicker

I realize that the last couple of games were SE driven, and it worked really well for #7. But I think we may be getting carried away here.

I don't think this map looks too good for a SE. Not a whole lot of food resources, and even the river to the south seems to have plains, not grasslands. Of the 6 city sites shown on the dot map, Athens and the red city could run some specialists. The teal city could run or two from the Wheat/Cow combo. But that's about it. Everything else would be very hard pressed to run specialists.

If you're chasing for a fast win, I'd be leaning toward leveraging the Philo trait with just 2 cities swapping GP creation (say Athens and the red city). Try to set the GP creations up to pop techs to military dominance (somebody had suggested Oracle to get MC, then Oracle's GP for Civil Service and Forge's GE for Machinery, giving fast Macement).

Leverage the Agg trait with the easy Copper access to do a scorched earth Axeman rush while waiting for the GP's.

Just drive the economy using a typical CE.

I dont think i have ever popped a tech from a goody hut that i was researching. I was even under the impression it wasnt possible because of this.

How strange :eek:

It only looks at the techs you don't have, not how many beakers you might have into any of them. You might think they could add another check to exclude the tech currently being researched, but this will only lead to players switching to the tech they least want to get from a hut pop and then switching back. For instance, if I'm trying a plan that requires me to skip Masonry I would keep swapping to Masonry to guarantee I never pop it from a hut. Then just change out of it before I put any real beakers into it.

I also picked up Mining from that hut while I was researching it running a shadow game which I thought was an amazing coincidence, especially since I'd already popped the hut before Sisiutil made his post describing what happened to him. I've had this same thing happen at least once before in other games.

First time poster, long time troller and dang near fanatical about the ALC threads. They'd make a great book.

Mind Worm, just wanted to say that I have popped a goody tech that was mid-research many a time. More often than not, it seems. I think they go up the tree just like GP tech pops. I once popped metal casting from a late find!

First time poster, long time troller and dang near fanatical about the ALC threads. They'd make a great book.

Mind Worm, just wanted to say that I have popped a goody tech that was mid-research many a time. More often than not, it seems. I think they go up the tree just like GP tech pops. I once popped metal casting from a late find!

wow, Metal casting would be a great pop.

Well, I suppose I have just been lucky then. Perhaps avoiding a hut for a turn or two when yer close to finishing a tech (esp if it opens up an expensive tech) would be smart?

I also picked up Mining from that hut while I was researching it running a shadow game which I thought was an amazing coincidence, especially since I'd already popped the hut before Sisiutil made his post describing what happened to him. I've had this same thing happen at least once before in other games.
I downloaded the starting save when it was first posted and had exactly the same thing happen to me too :crazyeye:

First time poster, long time troller and dang near fanatical about the ALC threads. They'd make a great book.

Mind Worm, just wanted to say that I have popped a goody tech that was mid-research many a time. More often than not, it seems. I think they go up the tree just like GP tech pops. I once popped metal casting from a late find!

Well this is ironic. I have played 15-20 games and never popped a tech I was researching. Last night I played a game as Alex and popped a tech I was halfway through twice in one game! I saved it midway through and started a game with Ghandi and popped a tech that i was 2 turns away from researching :(

ack

Well this is ironic. I have played 15-20 games and never popped a tech I was researching. Last night I played a game as Alex and popped a tech I was halfway through twice in one game! I saved it midway through and started a game with Ghandi and popped a tech that i was 2 turns away from researching :(

ack


The law of averages strikes again...

The Pyramids are attractive for a number of reasons, not just running a specialist economy. Early access to Police State with its accelerated unit production and decreased war weariness is also very attractive and has good synergy with Alex's Aggressive trait, so they're good for warmongering too.

The combination of stone within easy reach and lots of trees around the capital make the pursuit of the Pyramids a very worthwhile and, more importantly, possible goal for this game. I like the suggestion of GPs for CS and Machinery, though researching Masonry will complicate that, as the Great Prophet will then pop techs on the "southern" route in the tech tree. That may not be a bad thing. I had a problem in the Qin game with getting the CKNs early because they're expensive. Then again, Police State would definitely help with that.

So Teal looks like the next city to get the stone hooked up. Depending on how long Masonry takes, I may try to get Athens to churn out a couple of Settlers. I have a bit of time before I really need a lot of units, but I'm thinking I may use Slavery to help get the Pyramids done (build an Axe, whip it, let the overflow go to the Pyramids). So you may see me working food tiles over hammer tiles in the capital to accomplish that. Tricky, but do-able, at least until stone is hooked up and another city can start building units.

On popping techs: I've heard about it, but never done it until last night in my off-line game. I found an isolated island with a hut, used an Explorer off a Caravel to pop it, and got Astronomy! But I blew it. I was so overwhelmed by my good fortune that I made a bone-headed mistake: I right-clicked the wrong destination tile when moving my 4 Accuracy Cats so they wound up on open terrain next to an enemy city instead of joining the rest of the stack in a forested hill. Of course they got wiped out by Horse Archers on the next turn. D'OH! That's one of the few circumstances--a hand slip rather than an error in judgement--under which I will reload an autosave. Which I did, from a couple of turns before. And when I popped that late hut the second time?

"The villagers have given you 41 gold!"

:cry:

Serves me right for reloading...

Anyway, I hope to play and post the next round tonight.

I've been thinking more about the map and have a theory: what are the rarest early resources? Stone and Marble, IMO. You could say gold, silver, or gems, but I'd argue with you. I'll bet the other continent has maybe one stone or marble, but not both. Anyway, the large amount of deserts and other undersirable terrain are "offset" by the map generator by the stone AND marble a few tiles apart. Thoughts?

@ Sisiutil RE: joke: don't quit your day job. BTW what do you do for a living up there in Canadiastan?

I've been thinking more about the map and have a theory: what are the rarest early resources? Stone and Marble, IMO. You could say gold, silver, or gems, but I'd argue with you. I'll bet the other continent has maybe one stone or marble, but not both. Anyway, the large amount of deserts and other undersirable terrain are "offset" by the map generator by the stone AND marble a few tiles apart. Thoughts?

@ Sisiutil RE: joke: don't quit your day job. BTW what do you do for a living up there in Canadiastan?
I work in IT, as a technical consultant.

Round 2: to 1600 BC

Exploring and building, that's what this set of turns was all about.

My Scouts were going through a cycle of lifting fog, fighting animals, nursing themselves back to health, and exploring some more. It made it slow going, but thanks to having 3 Scouts I now have most of the continent explored.

My northern Scout actually uncovered a goody hut that the Chinese missed!

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1600BC_01.jpg

I popped the hut for...a Warrior.

Again.

Huh.

Well, since my Scout got attacked by Wolves again and had to sit out a few turns in the forest, I decided to send the Warrior off to finish exploring the northeastern snow and tundra. Yeah, he'd be exposed and out in the open, but these Warriors I get from huts are starting to remind me of the red shirts in Star Trek anyway.

(This week, Kirk, Spock, McCoy, and Ensign What's-his-name beam down to a planet! One of them doesn't come back alive! Who will it be?)

I finished building my third scout in Athens and sent him exploring. Thanks to the barracks in the capital, he started off with a Woodsman I promotion right out of the gate. Good thing, too:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1600BC_02.jpg

Surviving that attack gave him his Woodsman II promotion.

(Sidebar: I've decided that of all the barb animals, panthers are the worst. Bears and Lions are strong but slow; wolves are fast but weak. But panthers... Too many times I've left a scouting unit out on open ground since I can't see any dangers, and guess what comes rushing out of the jungle at him on the next turn? I hate those things.)

Meanwhile, my northern scout recovered from his third or fourth wolf attack and proved my instincts right about the location of China:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1600BC_03.jpg

On the next turn, I finished researching a technology that is going to have a big impact on the early part of the game:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1600BC_04.jpg

Okay, kids, we're pretty much committed now. I just gave up a GP-driven CS Slingshot. Big, pointy-shaped mausoleum of stone, here we come.

To support that end, I founded my second city in sigmakan's "cyan" location. First build: an obelisk. I want to bring the stone on-line ASAP. I sent my worker south to connect the city with a road and to farm the wheat.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1600BC_05.jpg

As soon as Sparta grew to 2 pop, I whipped the extra citizen away to finish the Obelisk and throw a few hammers in to the next build, a barracks.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1600BC_06.jpg

I also built two Axes in the capital. Well, I built one and whip-finished him to rush the next one, so both cities have a protector. Thanks to the barracks and the Aggressive trait, both are Combat I/Shock Axes! I forgot how much fun having immediate access to all the Level 2 promotions can be. Yea, verily, I shall fear no barb Axemen...

I built Axes instead of Phalanxes at this point in anticipation of the aforementioned barb Axes. Barb mounted units don't show up for a long, long time, so I don't expect to need Phalanxes until my first war. Speaking of barbs, once my Scouts (and 2nd popped Warrior) are done exploring, I'm going to use them as fog-busters in the north.

Once the Axes were in place to protect both cities, I started work on the Pyramids in Athens. 75 turns without chops, whips, or stone. Of course I'm going to use all three to get them built faster than that.

A look at the map:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1600BC_07.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1600BC_08.jpg

Sparta is building barracks right now, and they'll finish the same turn that it grows back to 2 pop. I think I'll build Worker - Axe - Settler there and see if I can't beat the Chinese to sigmakan's "red" location on the eastern floodplains. The Worker can help with the improvements and chopping needed for the Pyramids.

I also researched Animal Husbandry in anticipation of the cows in Sparta's fat cross. As some of you surmised, horses appeared to Athens' northeast, within the fat cross of the "green" city site.

I'm researching Writing, with the idea of building an early library in Athens and possibly running a scientist there, as Aelf suggested. I anticipate interrupting the Pyramids a couple of times with other builds and whipping them to completion so the excess hammers go to the 'mids, but we'll have to see how long the library would take. It might wait until after the Pyramids are done.

While the Pyramids get built, Sparta will have to do some of the heavy lifting. I will be competing for land with Mao, since the desert to his southwest will force him to expand directly towards me. I anticipate attacking him long before the Pyramids are complete, especially since I have copper. There's no reason I can't war and build at the same time!

I look forward to your thoughts and comments.

Definitely agree on Mao, I'd say everytime after Stone is Hooked up that Athen's pop hits 4, whip a empty axe... 25 roll over hammers and an Axe.

(actually I might work on Just Axes and not put Any hammers into the Pyramids until stone is Hooked up.. once you have about ~2-3 CR and ~2-3 Cover Axes, you can wipe the Chinese out... which I think would be really good for establishing a solid territory of your own (especially with Cyan city holding of the Arabs)

One thing, with all that Marble and Stone out there Wonders won't be as much of a Slam dunk as otherwise... fortunately no Industrious civs on your continent. So probably...

Maybe SH and definitely Oracle in Sparta(after it sends out its Settler)
Pyramids, Colossus, (Axes streaming out in the Meantime)
GLibrary in Red City (after it spits out a Settler or two)

and then
Meditation->Priesthood->Pottery (Oracle for M.C., Forg/Pyr G Eng.->Machinery)
[while wiping out the Chinese]

Poly->Monotheism (SH/Oracle G.Prophet to Theology for Theocracy)
[while expanding in your area (everything North or East of Sparta) emphasizing Marbel and Red city]

Alphabet->Literature->CoL->Civil Service
[Building the GL+Nat. Epic in Red City whileTrading for things like Math, Construction, Currency, Monarchy, Iron Working... alll the While Making Red city a Science Megacenter]
and once you have Researched C.S., can go on the Crusades, wiping out the Arabs with probably Theocratic Christian Macemen, from a Bureaucratic Police State (+75% production in Athens)

Or they could be Theocratic Axemen produced Before Bureaucracy, under a Representative Government, that you saved up the Gold and Upgraded to once you hit Civil Service (switching to a Full Specialist Economy at that point with the 100% Gold)

Hehe, funny that you mention Mao as first target. I looked at the map and it was like if Mao was red flagged and I was a raging bull :p So I definitely agree with taking the northern part of the map. The island itself is very nice. All resources are present except gold. I wonder if you go for a full SE or for a hybrid one with like 50% research rate. I would love to see the latter.

OH NOES!!! LOOK OUT FOR VICTORIA!!!!!
Financial/Expansive with access to 20 Floodplains and plenty of other room to expand. She will control Fur, Incense, and Wine at the least, might have to jostle for dye with Saladin. Furthermore, don't look for a War between her and Saladin to weaken or slow her down, since they are joined by a river and will share their religions.

Unchecked growth on prosperous land + financial Civ = :eek:

Not that you can do anything about it or anything, I'm just making a prediction that Victoria will be your #1 rival and the last Civ you will conquer.

Just sayin' :mischief:

If you are getting close to getting the stone hooked up, I'd suggest taking the pyramids off the build queue for the moment, and instead investing the hammers in Axes and Spears to "pop and overflow" into the after the stone has been connected.

The other thing I would call your attention to is the lack of Happy in your part of the world. That looks to me as though you could have some real problems - gems and silver are your best bets, but you better go get them. Oracle to Metal Casting?

Pyramids and Oracle and axe-stack as priorities? Pick two out of three to improve your odds. VoU suggested in another thread (maybe tongue in cheek?) giving stone to another civ and let them build the pyramids while you build axes to take it from them.

...and the ALC 'usual suspects' weigh in... ;) Only Doc EJ is missing...

Krikkitone, thanks for the overall plan. I will strongly consider it.

Killroyan, I'm definitely leaning towards a hybrid, with specialists in come cities, others cottaged.

Hans--good point about Victoria. Thanks for the warning. So long as I can get to her before she gets Redcoats, I don't anticipate too many problems. I just have to reign in my builder inclinations and go for it.

VoU, you and Krikkitone seem to be thinking along the same lines, of holding off on the Pyramids until the Stone is available. I can probably risk having my Worker road that tile before the borders pop. That event is 10 turns away, IIRC. I can try to time things so the worker is standing on the stone the turn before the borders pop. Meanwhile, I can start building up my invasion force. If I plant the Scouts up in the tundra carefully, barbs shouldn't be much of a problem.

As for happy resources, I have silver, silk, and even gems within my sights. I also don't anticipate having most of my cities growing over their basic happy limit for some time, thanks to :whipped:.

Pigswill, thanks for being the voice of restraint. I will probably skip the Oracle this game in favour of the Pyramids and just rely on whipping things (probably Libraries, since I'll have Writing soon) to ensure border pops. I still think the 'mids, Axes, and the Oracle are doable by juggling builds in different cities and, of course, the good ol' :whipped:. We'll see.

...and the ALC 'usual suspects' weigh in... ;) Only Doc EJ is missing...

I'm lurking. ;) The others seem to have pretty well covered it, and to be honest, I don't think there can be a whole lot of debate about your next few moves.

Mao must die. There's really no alternative. Sorry, Mao.

I think we all sort of agreed in the pregame thread that if stone appeared, building The Pyramids and going for either a specialist or hybrid specialist economy was the right choice. It still is.

So really the only question, I guess, is whether to start right away on The Pyramids with no delay or whether to wait for stone. I don't have the numbers here, but I suspect that if you work it out, there's not that much delay from waiting anyway. The 100% bonus from stone is such a huge difference maker that you'll quickly catch up and get it done at almost the same time either way.

Think of it this way ... at worst, each turn of delay before stone is hooked up translates into building The Pyramids 1/2 a turn later. But really it's not even that much, because as your city grows, you'll also be generating more hammers per turn. Probably the overall delay is somewhere along the lines of 1/3 or 2/5 of a turn later for each turn now (I'll gladly pay you tomorrow for a hamburger today ...). So if it takes you 20 turns to hook up stone (just making up a number), you'll probably finish The Pyramids around 6 to 8 turns later. That's probably a decent tradeoff if there are some worthwhile things you can build in the meantime.

So if it takes you 20 turns to hook up stone (just making up a number), you'll probably finish The Pyramids around 6 to 8 turns later. That's probably a decent tradeoff if there are some worthwhile things you can build in the meantime.
Well, it will be 10 turns before Sparta's borders pop. As I said, I can have the road to the stone in place by then. Then it's just a matter of having a Worker on that tile ready to start on the quarry on that turn. How long does it take a Worker to build a quarry at normal game speed? I think it's in the range of 4-6 turns. So, let's say about 15 turns before stone is available. Yeah, I could build a lot in the meantime--probably 2 or 3 Axes out of Athens at least.

How long does it take a Worker to build a quarry at normal game speed? I think it's in the range of 4-6 turns.

I'm not sure, which is why I just made up a number. ;) I usually play Epic speed, so if I remembered the number of turns I'd have to scale it down by 1.5, but I know I'm always surprised at how long quarries take to build.

I've looked in the XML before to try to find worker turns, but I can't figure out where to look. Anyway, worst case scenario I think it's 12 in Epic, so it shouldn't be more than 8 in Normal.

The old "Take a worker from Mao" trick might help cut the delay for stone by a couple turns. (Do they start with a worker at Prince? I can't remember.) Of course, that's assuming you have an axe that can get there in time. I didn't pay much attention to your units available.

The old "Take a worker from Mao" trick might help cut the delay for stone by a couple turns. (Do they start with a worker at Prince? I can't remember.) Of course, that's assuming you have an axe that can get there in time. I didn't pay much attention to your units available.

The AI doesn't start with a worker, but at this point Sisiutil has built at least a workboat and a couple scouts along with perhaps a worker and a barracks and a settler, so I feel confident that Mao has managed to make himself at least a worker.

Even one of those free warriors popped from a goody hut would be good enough to steal a worker. Don't forget this isn't Warlords, so even if the warrior dies, the worker can escape on the same turn he's captured. Also, Mao seems to have quite a lot of forest around Beijing, so there's some cover that might help keep the intrepid warrior alive.

What I'd be more concerned about is giving Mao advance warning of the real attack. As far as I can tell, once you get the AI on a war footing, they start pumping out units as fast as they can. If Sisiutil shows up with 4-6 axemen and catches Mao unaware, that's probably a good enough force to do some serious damage. On the other hand, if Mao has 20-30 turns to prepare his defenses before he needs to fight off anything more than one stray warrior (or axeman if you prefer), that might make for a very difficult war campaign.

It's six turns for a quarry on normal speed (or 3 turns with 2 workers).

What I'd be more concerned about is giving Mao advance warning of the real attack.

Yes, you want to do as much damage from the initial surprise. I have images turned off on the forum now, so I didn't check out all of the screenshots. S, if you aren't ready for the attack just yet, don't bother. 2000-1000BC is usually the start of my first military campaign on Monarch (handful of axes whipped and on the move). If you don't have a good attack force, please ignore my advice.

Yep, granary, barracks and axes/swords are most often my first build and I almost never build the Pyramids if I have copper for an early axe rush. I am trying different styles of play when I have time, inspired by Sisiutil and aelf game posts most specifically (started lurking near the end of ALC#5).

I've been thinking for awhile that a hybrid economy is best.

Use pyramids/representation and 2 scientists early on and then specialize your cities as normal (commerce, production, etc.). Once you hit banking, use mercantilism to add another specialist (probably a merchant until you get another building that allows a scientist).

My reasoning is based on the fact that slavery is a very important civic, not just for production, but for managing unhappiness. Especially on the higher levels, unhappiness is a real issue and being able to whip that useless pop for production is really nice. Later on, once you get to the point where mercantilism comes into play you have more happiness available to you and you can then more easily afford adopting caste system to take your specialists beyond 2.

Alex rocks, especially with pyramids, have fun with this one...

Well, it will be 10 turns before Sparta's borders pop. As I said, I can have the road to the stone in place by then. Then it's just a matter of having a Worker on that tile ready to start on the quarry on that turn. How long does it take a Worker to build a quarry at normal game speed? I think it's in the range of 4-6 turns. So, let's say about 15 turns before stone is available. Yeah, I could build a lot in the meantime--probably 2 or 3 Axes out of Athens at least.
Sure, but I agree with VoiceOfUnreason that you should build an Axeman until it has 1 turn left, then a Phalanx until it has 1 turn left, then an Archer until it has 1 turn left, then a Library until it has 1 turn left - whichever of those you can fit into the 15 turns - and then after the stone is hooked up, alternate completing them with building the Pyramids so that the overflow from all of them is applied with the stone bonus to the Pyramids.

On the other hand in SGOTM WOW (Whip Overflow into Wonders) has been classified as an exploit bcause whipping directly into a wonder you get 15hammers/pop; whipping overflow you get 30hammers/pop. Exploit? Smart play? Ethics? Expediency? No game should be this complex!

It may be an exploit but Sisiutil wanted to go out with a bang to Monarch, so I suggest to use every exploit to make the fastest victory ever. So follow Jets advice to get the maximum of exploit usage :p

On a sidenote, the hybrid SE/CE strategy is working like a charm for me in another game. I am tech leader, but somehow the AI has caught up a bit and there is a lot of fighting with my cavalry against 2 other civc with riflemen who both have been weakened by me (taken 3 cities from 1 and about 6 of another) and it isn't even 1600 yet???? Never seen these fights so soon.

Are you sure that building the 'mids in Athens is the best solution? It can produce settlers/military much more efficiently than Sparta. Just put Sparta working on the 'mids right away. Then work the wheat and the cows first for fast growth and then the quarry and the hill. At size 5 that city has 14 hpt and there's one of the silk forests to chop and the forest on that hill.

Meanwhile Athens can produce a settler to grab the red dot and then an army to go after Mao.

Hmm. So how can Sisiutil get maximum cheese? Can he build the Axe/Phalanx/etc each to 1 turn to completion, but then instead of completing them normally, gratuitously whip each one of them in order to get not only the regular overflow, but the whipping overflow as well?

Hmm. So how can Sisiutil get maximum cheese? Can he build the Axe/Phalanx/etc each to 1 turn to completion, but then instead of completing them normally, gratuitously whip each one of them in order to get not only the regular overflow, but the whipping overflow as well?

Isn't that what they're talking about? If you just complete them normally for regular overflow, the most you can get is however many hammers your city produces minus 1 (if there was 1 hammer left to complete the unit). Why would you want to do that? You'd be better off putting all the hammers for the turn into the wonder instead of all of them minus 1.

Reread your post Jet and now understand what you meant but when you can whip a little and get the double overflow wouldn't that be something? Don't even know if that works.

I think it worked in vanilla (where overflow hammers became base hammers for the stone mod). I can't remember, though. It could be only for the building (organized civic) or unit you are building (with forge, for example).

Pyramids in Sparta, huh? I'll have to consider that. Once it has the cows as well as the wheat that city can grow and, by working the stone, produce a decent number of hammers. In my other games lately, I've grown fond of building early wonders (my usual Stonehenge + Oracle combo) in my second city. What stuge said about Athens is true of almost every capital: it's the best early city to pump out Settlers.

The only problem is the dearth of forests (3 x 30 = 90 hammers) for chopping, whereas Athens has more than twice than number (7 x 30 = 210). I usually try to give the 2nd (early wonder) city a location with a lot of forests if I'm going to build wonders there rather than in the capital; I have to use chop-rushing to make up for the lack of population to work production tiles. On the other hand, this would leave all those lovely forests around Athens free for chopping other things--like SH and the Oracle, for example. And it also means Athens is free to produce Axes to go whomping Mao.

Hmmm... :hmm:

Maybe someone can do a little number-crunching and figure out what's best. I have a feeling it's a marginal difference, but if it's not, I'd rather not make a big mis-step.

As for stealing a worker, I like the idea, but I have to be ready for Mao's counter-attack, as weak as it's likely to be. I have two Axes at the moment, one in each city, and I do have a spare Warrior fog-busting to Athens' northeast, so the press-gang job could easily fall to him. I'd feel better if by the time I snagged the worker I had at least a couple more Axes to defend my territory from Mao's pillagers.

(Sidebar: in my current off-line game I've only built one Worker! I stole two from Tokugawa with a Combat II Warrior before he caught on and gave them an armed escort. :lol: Then I built my Praets, went to war with him, and captured five more Workers from Japan and a couple of barb cities I captured. I love not having to build Workers and Settlers!)

Dr Elmer Jiggle:

> Isn't that what they're talking about?
I don't know.

> If you just complete them normally for regular overflow, the most you
> can get is however many hammers your city produces minus 1 (if there
> was 1 hammer left to complete the unit).
The +100% from the stone is not applied to the overflow?

Well Its not really a matter of Number crunching, but here are the number crunches (assuming pop 5.. no Math...Stone Hooked)

Pyramids in Sparta
13 hpt + 3 Forests and a Whip of 2 pop at the end=26 hpt +3*40 + 60
450-180=270/26 hpt

So about 10 turns after the Stone is Hooked up... but you won't be at pop 5 then so rearrange to pop 3...9 hpt...18 with Stone
=15 turns Give or Take

Oracle/Axes in Athens...~10 hpt +7 fpt +20*7
The Forests alone take care of the Oracle, the Axes can come out ~1/3 turns.. plus probably a whip for 60 (clean Axe/Spear) every 2 pop or every 8 turns

So over the ~15 turns the Pyramid is being built. Athens gets about 9 Axes and the Oracle (~4 axes less for SH)

Disadvantage... To rush Engineer, Forge needs to go in Sparta then.
Advantage: the Engineers don't get polluted with Merchants if you put the Colossus in Athens

Alternative #2

Athens at 4
Pyramids
8 hpt +7 Forests +2 Whip =16 hpt+7*40+60=
450-340=110= 7 turns (of course you won't chop that fast, but extra will can be used for axemen.)

Sparta at 2
SH+Oracle=effectively 210 (with Stone)
6 hpt +3 Forests= 6+3*20=
210-60=150 =25... maybe less since you should grow to 3 or 4 then..15 turns if its just the Oracle



Actually I'm thinking the Pyramids are much Better in Sparta, So that Athens can rush out units, which are more easily whipped and Athens had a better Food advantage than production
at pop 3
Athens=+6 f, 5 hammer
Sparta=+4 f, 9 hammer

The other option is to go with the Option 2, Oracle in Sparta, Pyramids in Athens, but use the Pyramids immediately for Police State, Allowing Athens to mass Axes To finish off the Chinese (Axes/Phanxes, a Settler for Marble City.. to speed the Oracle, Workers/Granaries can also be built while waiting for Stone/Priesthood)

I think I prefer that method... you get the Oracle Probably After the Pyramids, guaranteeing the First GP is an Engineer, for Machinery, even without running a Forge.


So Final result: prebuild 1 Axe, 1 Phalanx in Athens, and then whip them out, concentrate on Food bonuses the the Copper, Chop like mad after the Stone, Cow and Wheat are hooked up. Whenever Athens reaches 4, once Working on the Pyramids, add an Axe or Phalanx on top and immediately whip 2 pop for 25 overflow=50 extra hammers



As for the Pre-build in Athens... assume 10 turns till stone is hooked up
during that time
Pop;Fpt;Hpt
3;6;5... 5 turns of this=25 to an Axe
4;4;8...5 turns of this=33 on the Axe+32 on the Phalanx
T1 whip the Axe=28 overflow=56 hammers [pop3]
T2 collect [pop 4]
T3 whip the Phalanx=27 overflow=54 hammers [pop3]
T4

Plus the base production which is 6,8,6,6,=26*2=52... although you should

So you get 56+54+52=162+ to the pyramids in the first 4 turns, no chopping... in another 3 turns you should have a 4 pop... so another 50 hammers +Axe/Phalanx from a whip


Actually Looking At it, it seems like the best 'pre-build' method might be to whip a Worker (once you hit pop 4), rather than prebuilding Axes. Because with all those Forests, and the Food bonuses, Athens is perfect for a Chop the Pyramids then exploit whips to whip ~2 Axeman for 1 pop under Police State.



So I'd say OPTION 1
Athens:
Axe until pop 4 then
1 turn on Worker and whip (for 2 pop)
Return to Axe (prebuild)
[Archer if Stone Not Ready]
Whip Axe to Pyramids when Stone Ready [Chop As Fast as possible]
Let pop climb... Whip Axe->Pyramids whenever pop 4

Sparta:
Axe (while pop Growing to 3 at least)
?Worker?
?Settler?
Oracle

I'd say probably wait on the Settler, don't race Mao, Kill him.

Disadvantage.. Later Oracle.... and Its risky cause Saladin has Marble


OPTION 2
Athens:
Axe/Phalanx Prebuild
[whip 1 Worker at pop 4]
Oracle (as soon as Priesthood)
Granary
Axes/Phalanxes*

Whip Axes into Oracle whenever pop=4

Sparta:
Pyramids... Just start and keep building, chop after Oracle done.
Forge


OK all considered, because the Oracle is one you can most easily lose, get that one first, In Athens. (then a Forge to go with the Pyramids in Sparta so that GP #2 can be an Engineer for Machinery) [25 turns after Oracle=GP, <20 Turns after Forge=GE]
OR 50 turns after Oracle, <10 turns after Forge.... You actually probably want the Prophet first, for Theocracy... Machinery isn't useful until you have Civil Service, unless you want to Bow rush.. so the Forge can be built normally rather than Rushing it in Sparta... it should take ~12 turns

I think this game is starting to move into the era where it is getting a little late to be starting the Pyramids. I'd pick whichever city can do it the fastest. I'll be very surprised if Pyramids + Oracle is still possible at this stage.

The +100% from the stone is not applied to the overflow?

I assume it is, but it's applied to normal hammers too. Maybe we're talking about different things. When I read your message, I interpreted it like this.

Build an axeman until there's 1 hammer left to complete him. Then switch to a phalanx and do the same. Then switch to a scout and do the same ...

Now let's assume that once the stone is hooked up, you're generating 15 hammers per turn (maybe not realistic, but it makes the math easier). That gets doubled to 30 hammers per turn, so your queue should like something like this:

Axeman (1)
Phalanx (1)
Scout (1)
The Pyramids (15)

Turn 1 you finish the axeman. One hammer goes into the axe, 14 hammers overflow.

Turn 2 you finish the phalanx. One hammer goes into the phalanx, 14 more hammers overflow for a total overflow of 28.

Turn 3 you finish the scout. One hammer goes into the scout, 14 more hammers overflow for a total overflow of 42.

Turn 4 42 hammers of accumulated overflow plus 15 of regular production go into The Pyramids, but they get doubled for a total of 57 * 2 = 114 hammers in The Pyramids at the end of turn 4.

Now what I'm suggesting is that if we had skipped at that rigamarole with the axeman, phalanx, and scout and simply built The Pyramids for 4 turns, we'd have 4 * 15 * 2 = 120 hammers in The Pyramids at the end of turn 4. So we didn't gain any overflow. We actually lost 6 hammers.

One REALLY BIG problem with that,

Axeman (1)
Phalanx (1)
Scout (1)
The Pyramids (15)

The total Overflow is Capped, so you will have 15 overflow at the end (30 Pyramid Hammers

The way to do it is

Axeman (1)
The Pyramids (15)
Phalanx (1)
Scout (1)

Whip and let overflow apply

The Pyramids (11)
Phalanx (1)
Scout (1)

Then rearrange

Phalanx (1)
The Pyramids (11)
Scout (1)

Whip and let overflow apply

Pyramids (6)
Scout (1)

And just Finish the Scout, Whipping it isn't worth it


Final thought, as Eggman said, Pyramids+Oracle will be hard, and I'm thinking abondoning the Oracle may be the way to go, since it is the one you are most likely to lose (No meditation yet, right, and Saladin near Marble).. By concentrating on the Pyramids in Athens, we get an Easy GE to build the GLibrary in Red dot after we have used Police State Axes to wipe out the Chinese. We then Convert to Representation and work on an SE, racing to ?Cats then Maces? through Standard Techs.

Also By concentrating on the Pyramids in Athens, and Dropping the Oracle, Sparta is freed up to produce Workers to help the Pyramids or Units to help the War.

The total Overflow is Capped, so you will have 15 overflow at the end (30 Pyramid Hammers

OK, but either way, I think we agree that normal overflow gains you nothing. What I was really trying to demonstrate is that you need to whip in order to make this approach worthwhile.

Just remember in your calculations that Chopping Forests only gives you 20:hammers: before Mathematics.

Athens does seem the best candidate for the Whip-overflow construction technique, but do you think that Sparta with its Cow and Wheat would have enough food to do whips as well? I'm of the oppinion that if you can pull-off the pyramids in Sparta, you should, due to GP-point purity issues.

But I suppose it could work just fine to build it in Athens.

Just remember in your calculations that Chopping Forests only gives you 20:hammers: before Mathematics.

Yes, but with Stone, it would be 40:hammers: per chop.

I like to do my calculations and comparision in base-hammers invested.

My understanding of the unit in build queue idea was that you stacked these up while waiting for stone to be connected. Once you'd got stone hooked you'd whip the first unit, using overflow on pyramids (hopefully with stone bonus), put a few turns into pyramids while recovering pop and some happy, then whip the next unit, rinse and repeat.

In any case, I feel that Chopping (Athens) is the best way to ensure the Pyramids. As long as the Oracle is built in Sparta (if at all) and the GL in Red City (easy enough with an Engineer, and a whipped Library) then there will be no purity issues.

Sparta is bad for Whipping because its Wheat and Cow are Plains tiles. The occasional whip might be OK.

PS don't think a Library would really be useful yet, right now is "gear up phase" hammer+food -> Wonders/Army. Once the Chinese are eliminated, go for the Science specialists, until then, get Priesthood (if you want try for the Oracle) and Pottery Then start on Writing. (for Science Specialists and the GLibrary)

Round 2: to 600 BC

What a difference 1000 years makes.

The round started with me attempting to implement as much of the advice I've been given as I could. I decided to stick with the Pyramids in Athens after all, especially since I'd already started them there. I also sent my lone Warrior eastwards in hopes of snagging a Worker from Mao. Look what he found instead:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex600BC_01.jpg

My Scouts also confirmed that the AI is aggressively expanding while I build units and wonders. Normally I'd be worried, but since I'm playing as Aggressive Alex, I just think it's terribly nice of them to build all those lovely little cities for me.

Mao's Settler and Archer companion were headed for our next city site, however--the red site, destined to be our GL/science city, or at least in that vicinity. Now I could leave the city and take it later, then keep or raze it, depending on its location. OR I could attack him now and stifle him.

Let the dice fly high, as Caesar would have said. I declared war and attacked.

The Warrior was free anyway, popped from a hut. He had a very slim chance of beating the Archer, even though the latter was unpromoted and unfortified on open ground. But he managed to weaken the Settler's protector (down to 2 strength). Meanwhile, I sent Athens' Axeman out in that direction, and adjusted the build queue in Athens:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex600BC_02.jpg

The whip cracked and I had two more Axes. I'm probably not doing this optimally; I certainly didn't queue up units in Athens as several of you suggested. But an opportunity arose and I decided to seize it, or at least make of it what I could.

My Axe got to the new Chinese city of Guangzhou on the turn after it was founded:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex600BC_03.jpg

The Archer was still weakened from his fight with our Warrior, but look at that! A Chariot! I checked the map; Mao must have horses in Beijing's fat cross, somewhere in the unrevealed fog around it. Well, that just makes it a richer prize for the taking, doesn't it? But it also means I'll definitely need a Phalanx or two; in fact, as soon as I saw the Chariot, I changed the build queue in Sparta to get a Phalanx out the door ASAP.

Still feeling like fortune's favourite, I had my Axe attack and auto-raze Guangzhou, especially since I didn't like its location, taking up tiles best distributed between two cities, as per sigmakan's dot map. I half-expected to lose him to the chariot on the next turn, since he was down to 1.5 strength.

But in a typically-strange set of moves, the AI-driven Mao did not attack the Axe on the very next turn, when the latter was weak and on open ground. No, Mao waited a turn, until after I had both promoted the Axe (Combat II) to recover some of its strength, and moved it into defensive terrain (the forest tile NE of the former city). Of course he lost his Chariot. Fortune does indeed favour the brave.

A short time later, Sparta's borders popped, and I had my lone worker in position atop the stone:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex600BC_04.jpg

As you can see, the Pyramids had 62 turns to go at that point, but of course, that wasn't helped by my whipping away 2 pop for Axes. Still, Athens has plenty of food available, so it recovered the population quickly. Since we were talking about not even working on the Pyramids until after the stone was hooked up, I thought I'd be okay. Especially since I was playing with my toes and fingers crossed, my lucky rabbit's foot ensconsed in my pocket...

As you can see, I was researching towards the Oracle. Once I had Priesthood, I began building that wonder in Sparta. (I should also mention that someone else beat me to Stonehenge) Now, with all this wonder-building and unit-whipping, I still only had one Worker, and the time was fast approaching when I would have to turn from improving tiles to chop-rushing. Who should come to my rescue but our friend Mao, as he sent another Settler my way--with two Archers this time, and a Warrior nearby too. For all the good it did him, since I had one of my whipped Axes (with Combat I/CRI) lying in wait in the woods nearby:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex600BC_05.jpg

After that Axe took out the first Archer, I gave him that Cover promotion you see here. So he now has the unusual combination of Combat I, City Raider I, and Cover. But under the circumstances, it made sense. End result: a free worker, and Mao is still stifled:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex600BC_06.jpg

Yes, he made it to Athens' fat cross, successfully evading that Chinese Warrior. Two moves to one is a wonderful thing.

I started researching Mathematics next--I was thinking better chops (I still have some forests left for both cities!) as well as Catapults.

Shortly thereafter Athens, after getting the quarry going and now two workers chopping...

Drum roll please...

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex600BC_07.jpg

YEAH, BABY, YEAH!!!

Now I did NOT change to Police State right away, in fact, by the end of the round, I still haven't. Remember I was building the Oracle in Sparta, and didn't want to lose a building turn to Anarchy.

Nonetheless, the time for that civic is fast approaching. Mao sent some Warriors my way to harrass me:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex600BC_08.jpg

Heh. Free XPs for my Axes. Thanks, Mao! My Combat I/Medic I Phalanx also eaned his second promotion (March) thanks to a barb Warrior he encountered on the way to Shanghai.

Thanks to a couple of chops, in 600 BC, where this round ends...

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex600BC_09.jpg

PHEW!! What a relief. I took Metal Casting, with the idea of building a Forge in Athens to run an Engineer specialist, as well as getting Macemen that much earlier.

So here is what my two cities look like in 600 BC:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex600BC_10.jpg

So one more Axe and then Athens starts on the Forge. I whipped a couple of Axes as soon as the Pyramids finished, so Athens has 2 more turns of whip-induced grumpiness left. Perfect timing; on the following turn, I can whip the Axe and have the overflow go into the Forge.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex600BC_11.jpg

Now that the early wonders are done, it's time to start expanding again. Most of that will be done at the expense of my neighbours, of course, but I want to get the red (science) city near the floodplains built.

My army currently consists of the following units:


C1/Shock Axe - fortified in Athens
C1/Shock Axe - fortified in Sparta
C1/CR2 Axe, C2/Shock Axe - In Athens' fat cross
C1/C1 Axe - half-way to Shanghai
C2/Shock Axe, C1/CR2 Axe, C1/Medic/March Phalanx - fortified outside Shanghai
C1/? Axe - being built in Athens


I'm thinking that the C2/Shock Axe near Athens will head over to the red city site to become that city's first protector. The Axe being built in Athens will get a CR promotion and head east to China, following the other two CR Axes. The CR Axe who is halfway to Shanghai is in a forested tile and has spotted a barb Axe coming his way, so I'm thinking of fortifying him there in the hopes that the Barb Axe will attack him, lose, and earn my boy his CR2 promotion.

I lost one Scout to a Barbarian. The other two are fog-busting, one in the north, the other to the southeast, and they've acted as distant-early-warning systems for Mao's forces, too.

Here's a look at the map:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex600BC_12.jpg

So I await your thoughts. Here are the discussion points I've thought of, but if you have others, by all means raise them:


With the Pyramids built, we're set for a hybrid economy of specialists and cottages. How best to achieve that? Looking at sigmakan's dot map (and beyond it, as most of the map is now revealed), which cities should have predominantly cottages, which farms and specialists?
Do my next couple of builds make sense? Do I have enough units for now, or should I get some more out before starting on the forge in Athens and the Settler in Sparta? How many? Of which types?
Related to that: Now that the Oracle is finished, I can change civics. Police State makes the most sense. Again, should I change civics, build more units, and then do some civilian builds? Or finish the Settler and Forge first?
I would really appreciate some advice on upcoming research paths. I have to decide between Code of Laws (to help defray the costs of the cities I plan to soon take from Mao) or Alphabet (towards Polytheism, maybe via a trade, then Literature and the Great Library) next. Or should I keep going on the war path tech-wise as well, and get Masonry/Construction?
I look forward to hearing your thoughts, as always!

Well a few ideas.... Specialist generation could be from
1. Floodplains
2. Food bonuses
Don't farm anything else.. just run random Scientists off of cities with a good amount of excess food.

Techwise...Go for CoL first Then Literature. (I wouldn't plan on extorting anything from Mao... just crush him fast, so you won't need Construction... try and make Saladin your Temporary best friend/trading partner (make sure to adopt His religion... since he will have one)

Civic wise... I'd get the Forge+Settler first and Then go to Police State. You seem to have a decent Army for Mao's secondary cities

As for what to do with your G.E. I'd say use one to rush the GL and the other to Rush Machinery (after that make sure it is Scientists all the way.)

Ater Literature, Research Macemen (Civil Service*), and Cats(Construction), and prepare to hit Saladin. (who should have a nice shrine for you by then)

*Machinery should be Popped

After that you don't really need any tech so you can go to Full Specialist Economy (ie 100% Gold from Commerce)

Interesting, Krikkitone--I think I've been playing with a hybrid economy strategy for a long time, I'm just refining it in this game.

I agree on CoL next (I might even found Confucianism if my luck holds--though I'll try to adopt Saladin's religion, as you suggest). After that, Alphabet--I'd like to see if I can trade for Polytheism rather than researching it.

And a good point about the GE, though I can see later in the game, when I'd like a GE to come along, that I might be running that specialist to try to get one rather than a scientist again. I doubt that I'll manage it, but I remember in the Mao game I had a GE appear just in time to snag me the Parthenon, which I otherwise almost never manage to build. I had GP coming out of my ears in that game as a result!

Sidebar: Doc EJ has urged me to mention, in case all of you ALC contributors and lurkers have missed it, that I have a thread with a poll on future ALCs--whether they should be on Warlords (which I haven't bought yet). You can find it HERE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=183704). The Warlords proponents are currently leading by a wide margin.

I cannot BELIEVE that you got BOTH pyramids AND oracle at around 600 BC :o :o :o :0 :0 :0 :O :O :O !!!

In terms of mixed econ--which I now think is a good way to go--your best bet is to run 2 scientists in each city and then specialize as normal (commerce, production, etc.). You should have 1 super science city with GL (use your GE on it...hopefully you'll get a GE and not a comparatively sucky GP). Bump up to 3 scientists per city with caste system once you hit banking and go back to slavery when you hit astronomy (unless you go SoL to go up to 4 scientists per city in which case you might want to keep caste system...I really wish there were more scientist buildings)

lol lucky your not playing warlords or your axes would of been target pratice to those Chariots ... I always forget Chariots have an advantage over axes when I Play Warlords :S

lol lucky your not playing warlords or your axes would of been target pratice to those Chariots ... I always forget Chariots have an advantage over axes when I Play Warlords :S

I looked at the screenshot and thought "OH !@#$" to myself until i realized this wasn't warlords.

I cannot BELIEVE that you got BOTH pyramids AND oracle at around 600 BC :o :o :o :0 :0 :0 :O :O :O !!!

Sisiutil scoring wonders is akin to Jimmy Thudpucker collecting stamps. "Gee, that was fun, I think I'll do Bolivia now".

I'm with Betafor on the Chariot thing. Still wise to have Spearmen with your stack of death when you remove the Chinese from the game...

Re tech path.

Research CoL while your forces march towards Beijing. That tech will be useful in any case and when you see the full extent of Mao's forces, you can decide whether catapults are needed.

Also, don't capture other Chinese cities than perhaps Beijing. The other AIs are far away and you can block off your part of the continent if you build your next city east of Sparta. That city would get rice, horses and cows so it wouldn't be total junk either. Then you can backfill at your leisure.

one comment : if you want your specialists to give you something worthwhile, switch to representation fast (= right now!)+ you need the happiness (no gold! no silver! no gems! = no happiness from forges)

Police state right now is not bad. Both cities need to grow a bit and churn out units. Best served by police state. After that switch to representation to get the hybrid economy going. Good job on crippling Mao. This is something I neglect way too much at start. Taking out 2 settlers is just plain great. Normally when I loose 1 settler I already want to throw in the towel but loosing 2.......OUCH. I do think CoL is the better tech especially with Beijing being captured.

P.s. if you are going to switch to warlords make sure you give a call because it will propably be posted in the other forum and I am learning way too much from these threads.

Happiness:

Check the map: Shanghai has silver in its fat cross. I'll be taking and keeping it in addition to Beijing. I'm pretty sure those are Mao's only two cities.

Also, there are gems just a little southwest (2S, 1W) of Sparta. Thanks to the Oracle, that city's next border pop should happen soon, and it looks like the third ring will claim them. The danger there is, of course, that Saladin may found a city closer to them, but he'll have something of a culture-border fight on his hands. And I'm going after him next anyway.

Military:

Regarding the Chariot, the Axe, and Warlords, good point. I'll have to be careful when I get the expansion pack. Like a lot of vanilla players, I'm used to Axemen fearing nothing in the early game. Don't worry, I have one Phalanx with my nascent stack now and I will build several more. They are Alexander's UU, after all.

On Phalanxes, as I thought about them, a couple more of their advantages occurred to me. First off, when I take an enemy city, I usually leave my Combat I/Medic I Spear there with the units that need to heal. I think the Phalanx, with its extra strength point, could serve as the captured city's lone defender for awhile, something I rarely do with Spears. Also, that 5 strength means the upgrade to Pikemen is much less urgent. I would assume that's not necessary unless I'm facing a lot of Knights.

Research:

Sounds like the consensus is for CoL next. I agree. I'll cross my fingers and hope to found Confucianism, though even without it, the tech is very valuable and worthwhile for a number of reasons.

Expansion:

I like stuge's idea of sealing off the northeast portion of the continent by placing a city in the southeast. Since that area was still in fog when sigmakan made his excellent dot map, we have no plan for it. Just glancing at the map, the coastal tile 1 SE of the horses holds appeal--horses, rice, more gems, coastal access, and several grassland tiles. It misses the cows to the north, but with all that desert, they'll be difficult to include in any city's fat cross. Should this be the next city, allowing me to backfill, or should the science city on the floodplains come next? Either way, I think one will have to quickly follow the other.

Miscellaneous:

Sisiutil scoring wonders is akin to Jimmy Thudpucker collecting stamps. "Gee, that was fun, I think I'll do Bolivia now".
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Of course, you should take a bow too, along with all the other ALC contributors. If I've gotten adept at this (among other things), it's very much thanks to the awesome power of the group mind.

That being said, this is why the next ALC game will be on Monarch. I'm playing an off-line game as Rome on Prince/Continents/Epic and it's making Prince feel like Settler level. I should be ashamed of myself, I really should, but I have an ulterior motive for that which I'll reveal later...

you may want to start on the science city first, IMO. you're losing $ at 100% and don't really have a whole lot in the bank. Taking Mao's cities will be of further detriment to your gold, until courthouses.

I think you should found the southeast city first. With the gems and being on the coast, it'll be bringing in a pretty penny fairly quickly, and let's you fill in the rest of the northern lands as your economy allows. Both that and the science city should be founded fairly quickly as both will be very profitable cities fairly quickly, it is just that the SE site is more urgent..

Guangzhou's ruins are no longer floodplains, but Desert bordering a river. Building a city permanantly removes any overlays (forest/jungle/floodplains), otherwise founding on floodplains would give you a city with a 3:food" core.

Whether this affects will affect the settlement plans, I don't know, but that tile is now permanently ruined by the cursed chinese, fit only for...another city?

That's the question. Do you want to build a city on that spot so as to make the most of it (the chinese thought that was a good idea), or do you want to just write it off as a loss and continue standard settlement patterns?

One thought on the Hybrid economy, I would not use Caste System, the benfits of slavery are significant, and 2 Specialists can usually easily be supported with any food bonus... 3 specialists begins straining the city. I can Only see Caste System as useful for the super science city itself. And I don't think that is enough gain. (also it would take a turn of Anarchy to adopt, not worth it.)

One thought on the Hybrid economy, I would not use Caste System

I find myself questioning whether it's even possible to use Caste System in a hybrid economy. Seems to me that if you're running enough specialists to need Caste System, then that's a specialist economy. The hybrid is based on the idea that you allow yourself to work cottages when possible.

I can Only see Caste System as useful for the super science city itself

And assuming you get The Great Library, you'll already be able to run 4 specialists in the super science city. That's probably about all you can support food-wise in most early to mid-game cities.

I find myself questioning whether it's even possible to use Caste System in a hybrid economy. Seems to me that if you're running enough specialists to need Caste System, then that's a specialist economy. The hybrid is based on the idea that you allow yourself to work cottages when possible.



And assuming you get The Great Library, you'll already be able to run 4 specialists in the super science city. That's probably about all you can support food-wise in most early to mid-game cities.

agreed on all counts - the hybrid won't be 50% 50%, more like 1 super city of each type and cottages where applicable(grassland) and specialists where applicable(food recource/floodplain)

And assuming you get The Great Library, you'll already be able to run 4 specialists in the super science city. That's probably about all you can support food-wise in most early to mid-game cities.

Well only 2 of them cost you food (so its really like the Great Library just has some Free Flasks and GP points)

Well only 2 of them cost you food (so its really like the Great Library just has some Free Flasks and GP points)

Doesn't it also allow 2 more regular specialists? (... looks at the XML ...) Hmm, no it doesn't. I wonder where I got the idea that it does. Anyway, that's what I was thinking when I said 4.

So theoretically then Caste System could allow you an additional 1 or 2 specialists in your science city, but like you said originally, is that really better than Slavery? I'm thinking no. Among other things, as soon as you research Currency you can whip a building that will let you run additional specialists without Caste System and earn you money at the same time.

I have run my hybrid economy without caste system. Only used slavery and switched only at the end to emancipation to cripple the other players because I was way ahead of them. I ran about 2 scientists in every city and had 2 super specialists cities (don't ask me why please :p) with a lot of merged great people. Got the highest score so far. Never had so much fun turning 3 people on monty to go to war and then coming in with modern armors to find his cities only defended by 2 infantry and 1 sam. Conquered his 8 cities in about 12 turns and the game was over. Another thing I have learned from these threads (bribing others to go to war, fun fun fun).

So caste system is not that good if you ask me. As others stated you can run specialists from other buildings too. When you get confuciasm you also want a great prophet to get the shrine. Set up 2 priests in the oracle city to get when needed. And the whip is too damn usefull most of the times.

Sealing of the SE is also the best course if you ask me. Claim the whole north part for yourself. Then get the superscience city next.

I have to agree with Killroyan, don't run the caste system in this game. See my analysis and comparative game for ALC 7.See post 432 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=178995&page=22). That clearly shows for a SE that Slavery is much more productive than the Caste System at least as long as there are infrastructure buildings to be installed. It is just as important to turn the extra food you get from farms into hammers as it is to run specialists to get beakers, gold and GPPs. In the longer term (after Banking) plan to turn some of your support cities into Merchant cities so the science slider can be run at 100% for long enough to get key technologies such as Liberalism.

This looks to be another fun and informative game but it does seem that the 2 wonders have slowed your start. In most of my games with Alex by 600 AD, I have 3 cities with 3 workers and a 4th city on the way and I'm building a nice stack of axes ready to grab a neighbours city or two... although I don't go for the Pyramids :p

Representation will give you +2 happiness and allow pop growth although Heriditary rule would allow even more happiness. Without many happiness resources (only silver and silk for Siliutil) and no religions on your continent this could be a game with small cities for a long time. Conquering Mao will give no happy resources you can't get yourself. Ironworking should give gems and open up the jungles for dye. In the long term it seems Vicky can offer wine, whales and fur from trade initially and then her conquest that but that is a long way off in the distant south and will take many, many turns.

I have run my hybrid economy without caste system. Only used slavery and switched only at the end to emancipation to cripple the other players because I was way ahead of them. I ran about 2 scientists in every city and had 2 super specialists cities (don't ask me why please :p) with a lot of merged great people.

why did you have 2 supersciencecities? :mischief:

why did you have 2 supersciencecities? :mischief:

Must withstand the temptation of answering............aarrrghgh.......too hard.........resistance is futile..........

It has something to do with drinking and playing :p. I was merging some GP first in my capital and then deciding that another city is better as a science city and began merging specialist from then on in that city but both cities were supporting 6+ specialist as well as >6 merged GP. Merchants/prophets in my capital with wall street and engineers/scientists/artists in my GL city (yes also engineers because I needed some hammers over there).

Darn you Cabert, I told you not to ask and still I answer :mad: Morale of the story is don't drink and play at the same time if you want to have an optimal result but still I got the best score ever out of that game :lol: :crazyeye:

Darn you Cabert, I told you not to ask and still I answer :mad: Morale of the story is don't drink and play at the same time if you want to have an optimal result but still I got the best score ever out of that game :lol: :crazyeye:

seems like you did a double GPfarm, with a few misplaced merged scientists, not that bad...(in fact what did you lose? 3 or 6 beakers per turn?, not even as bad as a pillaged town) (and i just could not resist temptation to ask, since you said we should not :lol: )

Round 3: to 125 AD

A very dramatic series of turns, as you'll see.

To start with, after giving it some thought, I decided to finally take advantage of the Pyramids now that I had safely snagged the Oracle. So I made a civics change:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex125AD_01.jpg

Police State will help with unit production, of course, and I need units. I can't run many specialists at the moment, what with small city populations, the happiness limit, and the whip, so Representation can wait.

I finally accumulated enough units outside of Shanghai to launch an attack. Mao had an Archer and a Chariot defending. I had two Axes (1 CR1/Cover and 1 Combat 2/Shock) and a Medic 1/March Phalanx. I knew the Phalanx could take out the Chariot with no problem, but the Archer would likely cost me an Axeman:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex125AD_02.jpg

A fair swap for a city, I thought.

Well, the gods of Olympus were smiling upon me, because my Axe survived the attack! He went down to 0.5 strength, but he won! My other Axe never had to raise his blade; the Phalanx finished off the Chariot with ease, and then...

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex125AD_03.jpg

On top of which, I now have a Level 4 unit:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex125AD_04.jpg

Aces. That gold will kept my research going at 100% a while longer! Once Shanghai came out of revolt, my first build was an Obelisk. I want to claim that Silver ASAP. I also started building a road from Athens to Shanghai to ensure a two-way flow of copper and silver. I had several units headed in that direction, and sent a spare Scout to do some fog-busting, to ensure the Worker laying down the road was in no danger.

Meahwhile, I built my next city, as we'd discussed:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex125AD_05.jpg

I did not start building an obelisk in Thermopylae; I have another plan in mind, which we'll come to later. I opted for a Barracks instead. The Gems have to wait until Iron Working anyway.

Meanwhile, my Axe healed in Shanghai and I sent him through the woods to scout out Beijing:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex125AD_06.jpg

Ooooh, look. Only two Archers defending, a Worker for the taking, cows and horses, and...waitaminit--what's that in the fog? I got a message a turn back about the Great Lighthouse being built "in a faraway land". Not THAT faraway, it looks like! And that wasn't all of Beijing's booty, as you'll see. I brought a couple more Axes to bear, and China was no more:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex125AD_07.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex125AD_08.jpg

Yes, that's right--a lighthouse, the Great Lighthouse, and TWO workers! After Mao built the wonder, he built a Settler! I would have been building units in these dire circumstances, but the AI has a slightly different agenda. To be fair, I have, in other games, taken what I thought was the last city of a civ only to find they have another one hidden somewhere; in a couple of games, the AI put their hidden city so far afield I didn't find it until centuries later! So as a desperate survival tactic, it may sometimes make sense. And hey, it got me another free Worker, so I'm not complaining. I have 4 Workers now, and only 1 that I built myself!

And I have the Great Lightouse! And Metal Casting for forges, and I'm Philosophical...

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. Once Beijing came out of revolt, I whipped away its unhappy citizens for an Obelisk. That done, I then started work on a forge. Following that... the Colossus and, I hope, a Great Merchant or two!

This is fun.

Speaking of Great People...

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex125AD_09.jpg

Thanks to The Tryant, I can't ever see this GE without thinking of The Mummy: "Im-ho-tep... Im-ho-tep..."

I haven't used him yet. I sent him to Thermopylae. I have something in mind for him, and it's not the Great Library. I'll get to it.

Meanwhile, I finished researching CoL without any help from the Oracle for a change, and I still won the full gift set:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex125AD_10.jpg

I converted right away. I could use the happiness boost in several cities. Not only is my whip hand getting sore; As you can see, in the absence of any more war booty, my research was about to crash. I started laying down some cottages--and I need citizens to work them.

So religion was going to help, as well as the silver. I will be switching to Representation soon as well, though I had not done so by the end of the round--I still had a couple of units to finish off.

In addition, diplomatically, Saladin STILL hasn't founded his own religion! So to heck with waiting for him. I have OB with him and Vicky, and a trade route with the latter--so I figure Confucianism is likely to spread. (Vicky has furs to offer, but all I have in exchange at this point are horses, which as you can imagine I'm reluctant to give to a future enemy, so no deal.)

Now I was thinking after the quick success with Mao that I should keep warring to keep my economy robust. So I sent a Phalanx over to have a peek at Saladin's nearest city:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex125AD_11.jpg

Hmmmm...well, it's weakly defended, but how the heck did it get that 40% cultural defense without a religion? Plus he has copper and I have indeed seen a couple of Axes wandering around his territory. I need to do a little more building anyway, and I think I may wait until I have construction and Catapults before taking on Sally.

Here's a look at the map at the end of the round, in 125 AD:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex125AD_12.jpg

Some thoughts I'm having and/or decisions I have to make:


Great Engineer: well, if you noticed what I was researching in the next-to-last screenshot, some of you have probably figured this out. In 125 AD precisely, I finished researching Polytheism and the Parthenon has not yet been built. Imhotep is snug in Thermopylae, which I figure is a good site for the Wonder, to keep the GP points in the other cities pure. Yes, I did the math, and Athens with its Engineer specialist will indeed give me another GE before Sparta gives me a Great Prophet or Beijing, a Great Merchant--so I can use him on the Great Library. On the other hand, Imhotep could be popped for Machinery for immediate Crossbows and, with CS (which Sparta's GP could help with), Macemen. Hmmm...
The Science City: not yet founded! Although I am almost finished its Settler in Athens and have its initial protector (a Combat I/Shock/Cover Axe) standing by. Should this city still go where we sigmakan planned it? We've lost one flood plain thanks to the cursed and thankfully dead Chinese, as Hans pointed out. Nevertheless, the planned site (2S and 1W of the cows) still has 4 floodplains. I thought of making Beijing the science city, but unfortunately, the Great Lighthouse poisons the GP points.
Research: I've chosen Alphabet, with Literature for the GL to follow. Construction, as I've said, is a priority, along with Iron Working for the Gems. Then again, with my research dropping, so is Currency. It will be interesting to see what I can get from Vicky and Sally once I have Alphabet.
War: Should I wait on Catapults before going after Saladin? Or should I just whip some Axes, putting the overflow into civilian builds like libraries and courthouses, and take his cities by brute force? I've done it before with an Aggressive civ--remember the Monty game, way back when?
Barbarians: They are annoying, what with all that tundra to my north. But they're good for free XPs. Still, they're a distraction. Waffle, waffle, waffle. I'm thinking some Chariots for fog-busting (Flanking I and then hopefully some of them can earn Sentry).


Lemme know what you think...

Research: I've chosen Alphabet, with Literature for the GL to follow. Construction, as I've said, is a priority, along with Iron Working for the Gems. Then again, with my research dropping, so is Currency. It will be interesting to see what I can get from Vicky and Sally once I have Alphabet.


Well, if you have chosen it, fine. But it's premature. Tech trading with targets? Especially when Vicky's economy is going to light rockets? You aren't ready to extort techs any time soon, you won't have your engineer for the GL for a while....



War: Should I wait on Catapults before going after Saladin?


Saladin? Oh, my ears and whiskers!

Dude, look at the map. Where's the prize? Go take it. And yes, you are going to need the rock throwers to do it.

Well, if you have chosen it, fine. But it's premature. Tech trading with targets? Especially when Vicky's economy is going to light rockets? You aren't ready to extort techs any time soon, you won't have your engineer for the GL for a while....
Is it? At my current 50% research rate, Alphabet will take 16 turns, Literature 12. I'm at 108/200 GPP in Athens with 10 points per turn, so a GE will appear in 10 turns. He'll show up in 8 turns if I build the Parthenon in Thermopylae, as I think I should. So no, I don't think it's premature at all. The sooner I have the GL and can devote one city to churning out Great Scientists, the better.
Saladin? Oh, my ears and whiskers!

Dude, look at the map. Where's the prize? Go take it. And yes, you are going to need the rock throwers to do it.
I take it you're referring to London, with all those flood plains. Okay. So are you suggesting I get Construction next, build Catapults, and put the Great Library there?

Interesting possibility. Questions, concerns, comments...?

Use Imhotep for researching Machinery. It opens up Macemen earlier (not much earlier, since you can't use the GP to research CS now you have Masonry), but it gets you one tech closer to Optics, an important tech on Continents. This will in turn allow for slightly earlier Astronomy, and that means you can destroy the other civs that much earlier. Besides, if you hook up the Marble the GL won't be very expensive anyway, so using a GE on it is a waste. The only other option is to use it for the Colossus, but using a Great Person to rush a wonder that you'll really only see the main benefit from the Great People it produces seems counter-productive.

Mecca is also an interesting possibility, it has Banana, loads of grassland and 2 clams to support quite a few scientists, you can capture it much earlier than London and won't kill you with maintenance so much. In the long-term however London is your best bet.

First thing: its still early in the game. Other continent seems to be doing ok.
I suppose the question is consolidate or attack. There's a lot of unclaimed territory around in the north of the island. Or you could just go for the continent and worry about barb cities later; you'd certainly need cats before you finished. You're a long way from maces even if you burn GE on machinery; prophet will give you mono and theo before CS. Your economy isn't that brilliant.
I tend towards caution as you may have noticed. You got oracle at 650bc? You got Confucianism at 1ad? Can your luck last? Does the RNG love you that much?

Good points all. I think London is pie-in-the-sky at this point; Saladin is likely to expand into my way. He'll have to be cut down first.

I think some consolidation is in order. A switch to Construction makes sense so I can go after Saladin. The war booty will allow me to boost research via deficit spending for a while. If I can take Medina in a reasonable amount of time, I should have Marble by the time I can build the GL and I may be able to use my 2nd GE for Machinery. Meanwhile, some good old-fashioned cottage-spamming is called for.

The Parthenon combined with Philosophical and several GP-pure cities has a terrific synergy. I keep forgetting I researched Masonry, so I can't use a Great Prophet for CS anyway--thanks for the reminder, pigswill. Frankly, I'd rather use a GP for the shrine in Shanghai, given how much I need money. I do want to build the Colossus in Beijing, but I'll want to generate a GP from Sparta before a GM from Beijing, so I'll have to time it carefully and maybe see about spreading Confucianism to Sparta for a temple and a priest.

Following Literature, Currency, Iron Working, and Calendar will be high-priority techs. I know several of you are arguing in favour of Slavery over Caste System, and I tend to agree and in any case will try to stick with it for the sake of contrast with the Freddy game. The only advantage at this point to Caste System would be to run Merchants, and I'd rather have cottages and keep the GP points pure.

Can your luck last? Does the RNG love you that much?

I'm thinking the other continent must be inhabited by all the Civ IV militaristic lunatic fringe leaders. Montezuma, Tokugawa, and maybe Napoleon.

(Vicky has furs to offer, but all I have in exchange at this point are horses, which as you can imagine I'm reluctant to give to a future enemy, so no deal.)

You've got Phalanx. They can even do alright against Knights. There's no reason you shouldn't trade the Horses away, especially if you have excess.

I'd go for Peace for now, get one more GE, and then start getting all your GPPs focused on Scientists. (Athens, Sparta, Bejing and Shanghai can all support 2 Scientists, make sure they all have a Library and then get them the two Scientists) [for Athens wait until its second GE is out.]

Pure GP pools aren't all that useful if you would rather have another type of GP. (so a Scientists polluted with Merchants is better than a Merchant pool all by itself)

The only non-Scientist GPs you want are 1 Prophet, and 1 More Engineer, Athens will get the Second, and I'd imagine Sparta will get the third. (especially once the Parthonon is Rushed)

I'd found the 'Red city' on the Grassland tile for the 4 Floodplains.. make it the Science City (Whip a Library ASAP)

Found Marble City as Well

Research Literature First. You could try overwhelming him now with massive numbers, but if you wait a bit you can be overwhelming him with better units.

I suport the Parthenon GE.... it is a bit of a delay in Gratification (More Scientists sooner v. a Tech Right now) But Machinery isn't useful Right Now.
Probably better to research Bureaucracy (after Construction) and Then Machinery.

All the while trading with whoever you are Not Attacking right now... The English will push ahead, sure but With a good Science City you should be much Stronger. (and by good trading you improve your advantage


PS what religions HAVE been founded, with Saladin getting none of them? (I'd imagine the first 3 are gone...meaning the other Continent has Gandhi, Spain, MM or the Natives..possibly two of them.. and given the easy Oracle access, I'd guess that Gandhi and MM aren't there... I'd guess the second continent is a 1492 rematch, Hindu Aztecs v. Buddhist Spaniards)

So in order
1. Engineer Parthenon
2. Found Red City (whip Library)
3. Start Whipping Libraries in Cities [exception Bejing, Getting the Colossus there is good]
4. Research Literature, start on Civil Service
5. Get GE from Athens for GLibrary in Red City
6. Get Prophet from Sparta for Shrine in Shanghai
7. Run 2 Scientists in ALL cities to beef up the Science City
8. Research Civil Service, start on Construction
9. Change to Representation and Bureaucracy
10. Research Construction, start on Machinery
11. Start taking the continent

Currency, IW, and Calendar can be Traded for. they are Not that necessary

I think you can start trumping Lou Gherig on being the luckiest man on the face of the Earth. I would go out and buy a Lotto ticket before things wear off!

Aside from the fairly remarkable snagging of Oracle and Confucianism at these late dates, I can't believe you took Shanghai with just a 3:2 unit ratio. I'm NEVER that lucky. It's one of the big puzzlers I have with this game, since people act like you can whip up 4 City Raider Axemen and you're all set to go to war. If my best attacks are at 50%-70% odds it's pretty much a forgone conclusion I won't win without a 2:1 ratio or better. In this particular game, I had whipped up a huge (for me at this stage) army: 4 Axemen and 4 Phalanxes that I expected to use to wipe out Mao by 600 BC. But he had Walls in Shanghai and 6 defenders in Beijing. He had also taken some Barbarian city that I was unable to find, making it so far away I don't see how he got troops to wherever it was in order to capture it. This extra city must have been near Horses since he continued to produce Chariots even after I pillaged all his local Pastures. I didn't have any way to get rid of him without resorting to Catapults.

Speaking of which, I don't see why you can't war with Saladin. Even if you don't take a single city, you can earn XP fighting his troops when they come out and you can do just fine pillaging him to keep him down. Plus you might find a city you can take that is as weakly defended as Mao's. Since there is no extra WW for the length you fight, if the focus is on pillage the WW you gather at this stage is negligible. If you use peace to build up, you are giving the same advantage to your opponent. I see it as a clear mistake in my shadow game that I did not immediately start weakening Saladin after I had Mao walled up in his last two cities.

gotta agree with eggman's assessment and just wanted to add a little

based on your distance from one coast to the other.. I'd say you have atleast 2-3 locations worth settling out inside and behind your own borders. get those settled out sooner rather than later so their populations can expand.. more places to crack the whip for more war units to hassle and attack saladin.

with 4 workers you should be able to spam out some cottages and farms and mines as you need all 3.. and make a tech pitstop at calendar to unlock all those wonderful happiness resources on the map.

your luck against the chinese was astounding so gj there.

best of luck with next round

NaZ

1. Yeah, rush the Parthenon. That'd be cool.

2. Watch out for that Barb Axeman.

3. Put your next settler 3S,2W of Beijing and use that for Oxford/NE/GL. Excruciating justification follows.

First off, cows-2S1E is slightly better than cows-2S1W.
2S1W has uniquely:
* 2 food from fresh water
* 2 plains tiles
* 3 river commerce
2S1E has uniquely:
* 3 grass tiles
In 2S1W, the fresh water bonus effectively turns those 2 plains tiles into grass tiles. So then it's 3 river commerce vs. 1 grass tile, and 2S1E wins.

But Beijing-3S2W is even better. It would be best if you used it with Caste System, but it is reasonable to prefer Slavery for
1. soon, whipping buildings in new cities in the north
2. any time, whipping units, if you keep your production cities small
3. later, whipping buildings in conquered cities.

Even with slavery, Beijing-3S2W is still better than cows-2S1E.

Health in either city:
2:base
6: granary + grains
2: grocer + banana, not counting wine
1: cow
3: seafood
2: aqueduct
-2: floods
total: 14.
Beijing-3S2W can get 3 more health from a harbor = 17.

Cows-2S1E:
6 grass cottages, 4 farmed floods, plains cow, plains cottage, 4 scientists
size 16, health 14
food 12+16+3+1+2 = 34.
Yield: 6 cottages, 6 river commerce, 4 hammers, 4 scientists

Beijing-3S2W:
5 cottage floods, plains wheat, coast fish, plains cottage, plains mine, 3 coast, 5 scientists
size 17, health 17
food 15+4+6+1+6+2 = 34.
Yield: 5 cottages, 6 river commerce, 6 coast commerce (9 w/ Colossus), 6 hammers, 5 scientists, +50% trade route yield

I'd like to second Eggman's Idea of a Pillage War with the Arabs, they are well enough defended that you don't want to try taking cities, but your better units can stifle them well. The key is a war that will NOT cost you because the English will benefit too much.

A nice mix of Shock Axes and Phalanxes can strip them down to cowering clam fishermen. It may encourage them to give up a tech for peace once you have Alphabet, and possibly cut down thier religion drive, meaning that Confucianism may dominate the Continent (easier for you when you take them over, and pacifying and keeping an eye on the English)

Bejing 3S 2 W would make an OK city, but not a Good Scientist city as some of its best tiles (floodplains) overlap with Bejing (I would try and settle somewhere to get that wheat-fish combo though, it makes a nice Whip/Fishing Village, it can work any Floodplains cottages Bejing is not, otherwise it just works the sea)

I don't think the Health bonus is really that important nor is the total size of the city.. If we are planning on Winning Fast how much it can support at pop 15+ is irrelevant.

Cow 2 S and then 1 (E or W) would be best as it supports 5 Scientists with a population of 9 (4 Floodplains) uncontested tiles. With 10, it has some nice production from the Cow as well.

ugh jet and others hard to keep up when you use specific terms like that.

but seems there is some consensus

pillage the hell outta the arabs, i'd go with 3 little stacks consisting of a phalanx, axemen, and horse archer so they can move and pillage on the same turn. those should cost him dearly if he wants to try to counter attack them, and 9 units isnt much cost to the empire.

meanwhile as long as you have enough army to defend the relevent borders, focus on city growth and settling into those empty spaces.

you're better at picking city specialization so i'm not going to comment there, only to reemphasize that theres a lot of wasted space between sides of the empire.. and should be filled in accordingly

NaZ

And while you're pillaging the Arabs back to the stone age, get some Cats up and running, and maybe take out (or just plain take) a city or two if you think you can get away with it...

Maybe what you could do is turn london into your cottage SS city, with all those floodplains. waiting for london to be under your control could cost you the GL. Unless your luck holds.

Edit: Also forgot to mention that you should avoid cottaging the tiles 1 square SE of Athens and 2 S of Athens, save those for farms

Praise the lord for taking out China that fast with so little units. Wish I would be so lucky. Good job on that especially with the great lighthouse as a bonus. NICE :)

I do believe that rushing courthouses in Beijing and shangai are priorities right now with their high upkeepcosts (or did you already do that?). Pillage war against saladin sounds about right, but maybe wait for the alphabet before going to war so you have a good chance of trading iron work with him and then pillage him back to the stone age. After that get set on machinery and CS and you won't have a lot of problems with England with your macemen.

GOGOGOGOGOGO!!!

Bejing 3S 2 W would make an OK city, but not a Good Scientist city as some of its best tiles (floodplains) overlap with Bejing (I would try and settle somewhere to get that wheat-fish combo though, it makes a nice Whip/Fishing Village, it can work any Floodplains cottages Bejing is not, otherwise it just works the sea)

I don't think the Health bonus is really that important nor is the total size of the city. If we are planning on Winning Fast how much it can support at pop 15+ is irrelevant.
I don't think there's any better spot north of the jungle. The high food surplus should make it best at all sizes because it enables the city to whip buildings, run scientists, grow, and work cottages faster than any other site.

I think the harm from the the overlap with Beijing is very small. Beijing still has enough food to work all resources/cottages/coast except for one plains tile.

Alternative possibility:

Switch to Representation + OR. Set up specialists where possible.
Lightbulb Machinery. You'll probably miss out on Parthenon then but I think it's no more than a nice-to-have.
Research Construction while building CR axes and Drill crossbowmen. Why drill? Simply because you'll have to build less of them due to higher survival rate (they're not really cheap after all). Throw in a few chariots for fogbusting perhaps pillaging on the side, preferably in the former Chinese cities as they're lightyears from the common front with Sal anyhow.
Start cats on as soon as Construction is in. Beeline for Literature next.
In the mean time, settle crab/silver/marble city in the NW and science city. The former's really just for the marble, the main advantage being you merely need to quarry it to gain access since it's next to a river already connected to your trade network.
Once Literature's in, rush GLib with your second GE and feel free to plop down a now cheap (thanks to marble) HE somewhere.
For NE I'd wait until after attacking Sal because there's a neat GP farm spot 2 SE of Mecca (banana, rice and cow, and optionally another banana to take away from Mecca... it has plenty of rivers too) Moreover, that spot isn't 'polluted' with wonder GP points yet.
I'd attack Sal as soon as GLib's built because it'll allow for decent research rate even with increased maintenance from his cities.

London's a no-no at this point to me. Far too remote; keeping it will cripple your economy even with specialists. Moreover, you'd have Sal sitting right in the middle of your territory, no good either. Lastly, it'd take ages to get there.

Sal's a better target, if only because he has the most attractive resources. I wouldn't attack him right away though: with some luck he might research Iron Working and Calendar, which you both still need and could trade for. Also, he might chop some of that jungle for you in the mean time.
And pillaging war? Hmm. I doubt he'll become a threat even if you give him some time. With axes, crossbows and cats you should be able to take him easily even if allowing him to consolidate his position for a while. On the other hand you only have chariots for pillaging for now and they fare only moderately well by themselves against axes from what I've seen. Deviating research to HB doesn't tempt me either.
I'm more for building up a bit now, then finishing Sal off in one swift stroke and moving right on towards Vicky. If all goes well you should have Macemen too by then.

did you think of settling the GE?
under representation, it's not a bad deal for a science city...
This way you don't need to pop rush too much there, + you have free beakers.
Alternatively, you could select your top hammer city and put it there. HE will come just as fast as the GL, and one super engineer makes a lot of difference in your HE city.

Bah, that all sounds nice, but the Parthenon is there for the taking. You'll be feeling the positive effects of that baby all the way to Chemistry. People don't end up building it because it sucks, but because its really expensive and comes around(even if you have marble) when you really should be going to war or at least building up. You'll get more of everything. Seems a worthy sacrifice of a GE, seeing as the GL is cheap with marble...

Bah, that all sounds nice, but the Parthenon is there for the taking. You'll be feeling the positive effects of that baby all the way to Chemistry. People don't end up building it because it sucks, but because its really expensive and comes around(even if you have marble) when you really should be going to war or at least building up. You'll get more of everything. Seems a worthy sacrifice of a GE, seeing as the GL is cheap with marble...

well for a philo leader it's just not worth much...

well for a philo leader it's just not worth much...
I disagree. In the Mao ALC game I had GPs coming out of my ears, and having the Parthenon was part of that. As the game grinds on and GPs get more expensive, the Parthenon works with the trait to keep them a little cheaper than they would otherwise be.

(Frankly, the only time I've ever managed to build the Parthenon is with a Philosophical leader! I usually manage to get a GE early on thanks to the trait and something like the Pyramids or a MC Slingshot, and then used the GE on the wonder.)

I'm a firm believer in looking for ways to max out a leader's traits, not sit back and rely upon them. This is why I do a MC-slingshot for any Industrial leader, for example, or war and conquer as early as possible with an Organized one, or, of course, cottage like crazy if I'm Financial.

As for Saladin, I don't usually fight pillage wars, so this should be interesting. But the game conditions seem to be calling for some pointy-stick research, so off the mini-stack goes. NaZdReG, I'll probably use Chariots rather than Horse Archers since I don't have HBR, never research it, and rarely trade for it. Chariots are cheaper and serve their purpose of moving with the Axe/Spear (which provide the protection), then pillaging in the same turn.

A pillage war rocks! Looks like you are heading to Parthenon with GE to speed up the GS bonuses, attack the GL with marble. You have a silver mine. Spread your religion for the shrine? Looks like you are doing it all... I like. It'll be fun to watch.

Well, it shouldn't be fully pillaging. Don't forget the marble city...Medina, right? Take that and pillage him to the stone age.

And the Parthenon is enhanced by being Philosophical, IMO. In fact, I'd wager it has a little to do with there being no Ind/Phi. It would simply to easy to get it(and early!) and the effect would be insane. Throw in the fact its usually around long enough to built with the aid of forges, and you've got a single wonder that provides you with a veritable flood of GPs for very few hammers...

Medina has Walls, It'd be easier to get CrabMarbleSilver city with a Settler

The fact is Parthenon is not as good for a Philosophical leader as anon-Philosophical Leader.

HOWEVER, the Parthenon is better for a Specialist Strategy than a Non-Specialist Strategy, and a Philosophical leader is more likely to go for a Specialist Strategy.

Round 4: to 1030 AD

His resolve is not to seem, but to be, the best.
- Aeschylus

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1030AD_01.jpg

So I want all the Great People I can get. If that makes me greedy, then I don't want to be unselfish.

I decided to keep researching towards Literature; along with everything else we discussed, the kicker was that the longer I put off the Great Library, the more expensive those Great Scientists were going to get. Towards that end, I finally founded the science city:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1030AD_02.jpg

Its first build was a library, and I'm farming the floodplains to maximize the specialists I can run. I chopped those 2 forests and when I got close enough and had enough pop, whipped to finish the library.

I did a little horse-trading--literally--with Victoria, as some of you urged. I'm hoping I won't regret that; I tend to doubt it.

Once I had Alphabet, I went shopping:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1030AD_03.jpg

Not a bad haul! I also obtained Calendar from Saladin, also for MC.

I don't mind trading away Metal Casting. I'm coming to prefer it to Code of Laws as the Oracle tech for that option alone. I find if I trade away CoL, the recipient of my largesse will inevitably beat me to Philosophy and Taoism. But Metal Casting doesn't yeild quite the same advantages. Consider: forges are expensive. If the AI is building them, it's not building units. The Colossus, while nice, is not exactly a must-have wonder. And Machinery is of limited value without Civil Service for Macemen. All told, I don't consider myself to be trading away as much of an advantage as I am with CoL.

Anyway, with my tech trading done, I felt it was time to start doing a little pointy-stick research, even though my economy, as you can see, is somewhat improved. My target was my nearest neighbour, of course:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1030AD_04.jpg

This was the start of something of a "phony war". I think Saladin has sent a grand total of one Swordsman at me. I put together a Medic I/March Phalanx, my best Axe (Combat II, Shock, Cover), and a Flanking I Chariot to go do a little pillaging. I took out most of the improvements around Medina with impunity, then went south along the cost to worry Mecca. I decided to haul tail back to my own territory when Saladin finally grew a couple and sent a stack of 4 Catapults my way.

During this time, some other important developments occurred. I still didn't have marble, so my next GE from Athens got used as planned:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1030AD_05.jpg

And shortly after that (to ensure Corinth had a lead on GP production), Beijing finished its 2nd wonder:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1030AD_06.jpg

I'm not sure how ships are gonna make it in and out of the harbour with those two wonders in the way, but whatever. I'll probably get a Great Merchant out of this later in the game. I'll probably see if I can manipulate that right when a trade mission's cash infusion would allow me to upgrade a whole whack of my veterans.

With the wonders complete, Construction researched, and a decent army built, I decided it was high time for a civics change. I researched Monotheism (2 turns) to further justify the change and amplify its benefits:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1030AD_07.jpg

Organized Religion, of course, is for faster buildings; and Representation is great since I now have most of my cities running at least one specialist (scientists, mostly). Corinth is running two specialists and slowly building the National Epic. (I really need some marble...)

Meanwhile, my next Great Person was a Great Prophet out of Sparta. Since I was researching Currency, I was clearly in a monetary state of mind, so I used him for the Confucian Shrine:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1030AD_08.jpg

I should also mention that Iron showed up in the tundra at the northern edge of Shanghai's fat cross. It's a pity, but with 2 low-food resources and so much tundra, Shanghai is just not going to run specialists until maybe Biology. So I'm going the cottage route around the city.

Then my first Great Scientist appeared. This is usually a dilemma for me: get the Academy in place in the science city, or snag Philosophy for another religion, a head start on the later Liberalism race, and the option of building Ankor Wat?

Well, that's just too much fun to pass up, isn't it?

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1030AD_09.jpg

Again, reflecting on the game in a larger sense--if I can't found Taoism, I'll often just build the Academy. I can't help wondering if the AI reacts the same way--that getting beaten to a religion-founding tech takes some of the shine off of it. That would certainly enhance your chances in the Liberalism race: you not only get Philosophy early, you dissuade the AI from also researching it.

And I'm still wonder-crazy! In Athens, I went for another GE-generating wonder:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1030AD_10.jpg

Over time, as a wonder, the Hanging Gardens are growing on me. (Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.) The AI usually doesn't build the HG, making them low-hanging fruit; they provide a handy health bonus to a non-Expansive civ; and the population boost is very flexible. It can be used for whipping if you get the HG early; in my case, I need more people to work the cottages and other tiles, and/or to serve as specialists. It strikes me then that the HG must be an even bigger boon to a pure specialist economy. I'm still running slavery, but I'm not using it very often. Like I said, I need the tiles to be worked.

Ah, yes--I got construction several turns back. What of that? Well, I had to build several Catapults, and move them into position. Get this: I took out Medina's defenses, then attacked its three Archer defenders with three Catapults. All three Cats survived! That's the first time I've taken a city entirely with Catapults. Behold the mighty Greek Catapult rush!

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1030AD_11.jpg

So the war with Saladin has begun in earnest. I offered the poor sap a peace treaty when I was done pillaging, but he won't part with any of his techs. Foolish. So the war went on, albeit coldly and quietly, until I could turn up the heat.

I have Civil Service--I switched to Bureaucracy--and I'm working on Machinery, so I'll have Macemen very soon. Meanwhile, back home, I'm working on Markets, then it's back to units.

A look at the map:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1030AD_12.jpg

So the road for the next few turns is a little clearer: keep taking Arabian cities, pausing to see if Saladin will give up some of his juicy techs like Compass.

Speaking of techs, after I have Machinery I think Engineering would be wise for the movement bonuses. Then I'd like to look into Optics for the Circumnavigation bonus and to find my other victims. Bwa-ha-ha.

I have fog-busters up in the north now, so barbs aren't really a problem anymore. Research is firmly hovering around the 50-70% range depending on how many units I have in the field. I'll have to rebuild the quarry I pillaged way back outside Medina (hey, Saladin had Literature before me, okay?); once that's done, Iceburg is a much lower priority. I'm thinking of founding a city 3S 2W of Beijing. Yeah, it's out in the desert, but it will have iron, wheat, and fish, so it'll be a decent little fishing village. Working the fish will also let me glean a little more of the benefits of the Colossus.

Whaddya think?

once that's done, Iceburg is a much lower priority

Much lower. Iceberg was going to get you marble, silver, and crabs. Now you already have marble and silver, and although I haven't opened the save, I'm guessing health isn't a problem for you. I count about 6 health resources, including all 3 grains, plus The Hanging Gardens. Fish should be on the way shortly, and that should more than cover your health needs for a while.

Sounds good, Iceburg and Cowfish are the Last cities that can truly be said to be 'Good' in your home territory, the only other one is a Horses/Silk. And Cow Fish is Better, but I'd get Iceburg anyways, its a worthwhile investment for the Silver Commerce (as the English will settle there anyways if you don't)

An Idea, after you're back to making units, and have the Epic in Corinth, you could Really pump up the GPs with Pacifism... run 2 Scientists in Athens, Bejing, Thermopylae [and Corinth]
[The GPP per turn would be 21 Thermopylae, 35 Bejing, 42 Athens and 67 in Corinth... Athens would be 60% Engineer, and Bejing 50% Merchant, but those are OK Great Persons
a new GE could lightbulb Engineering/Feudalism/Guilds or Hagia Sophia or ...HS might be useful with the Arabian Jungle coming up, and would keep you in a Wonder rush.
a new Merchant would lightbulb Paper or Guilds.. or a Trade Mission to London would give ~1000-1500 gold, enough to Research whatever you want/upgrade.

The fact is even with a decent sized Army, Pacifism will probably be Cheaper than OR, and you probably won't have that Many units anyways. (Quality over Quantity)

PS what city is Getting Heroic Epic? I'd suggest Sparta if the decision hasn't been made yet... it has decent production tiles, and it looks like it has the Hammer right now [plus its lousy for anything else, for commerce the best it has are 2 Silks].. just remember to chain the Wheat.

As for Techs.... there's a few different paths after you have Machinery

Engineering->better Roads, for a quicker war
Optics->Circumnavigation, contact for trade
Education->Liberalism (and Cheap universities plus Oxford)

I think that Order is good. Engineering+Optics are each about 1000 flasks from Machinery, Education is about 2400 flasks

Engineering and Optics are also Wartime Techs, there are minimal buildings unlocked, and so you can continue to pour out Mace-Cat combos from your cities.

By the time you get Education, you Should have unified the Continent, and can get yourself Universities and Oxford (to go to 5 in Corinth) and then Liberalism, to get Astronomy to make your new 'Friends' see the light.

I think Engineering is definitely the best because you have a significant military advantage, you want to push it as fast as possible. (the only problem is it will make your Phalanxes much more expensive and not much more effective)

All in favor of lightbulbing a lot of techs especially if you have pacifism also. GP will come out of your ears with so many wonders. This will put you in the tech lead so far it won't be funny anymore. Well actually it will be funny because England will soon feel the combined power of MACCATS troops :p Saladin is already toast from what I can tell. Science city looks very powerfull already. 350% GP points with National Epic (all scientists). Get those Acadamies in place. 1 for Corinth and propably 1 for Athens. It is looking very good. Optics and engineering are techs the AI prefers so you can propably trade them anyway so you might start to think about education -> liberalism and maybe even snag the great merchant from currency. Another option is to merge great merchants with the science city so you can even support more specialists as they provide 1 food.

Keep it going. It is looking incredibly good so far.

Iceburg is a much lower priority.


nothing to do with the gameplay (I'm not expert enough:( ) :

I think Iceburg is funnier than Iceberg :lol:

the joke is better that way IMO

(I've a question for english-speaking people: is the pronunciation of the two identical, quite identical or not at all? : quite hard for a french guy to really understand how english people say each thing...:crazyeye: )

oh : I love this thread... :) (the 1st of the ALC that I'm following).. I will start to read the others :mischief:

yeah, basically identical in english (hence the working of the joke, all good puns are phonetic.)

Good game sisiutil :goodjob:

This pillage then conquest war looks like a "slow rush" . You even managed a surprise attack after a few hundred years of war :lol:.

About the cat kills archer thing, it's not uncommon at all. If your first cat kills his opponent, the odds start climbing high, from the collateral damage.
I usually do stacks of overwhelming numbers of cats and just a handfull of melee for nutcracking (top defender!), +anti melee +anti mounted. In most situations (= no river crossing, not on a hill, no level 4 archer), my catapults take the cities without any help (other than defending the stack, then the city).
With something like 8 catapults, 2 mace, 1 elephant and/or 1 spear/phalanx, and 2 new cats after each city you can storm archers with ease. When longbowmen show their ugly noses, the deal isn't as good = You need 3/4 new cats after each city :lol:.

About engineering, maybe you should spam phalanxes before you get it? I would say you need 2 phalanxes /stack (i usually go with 2 stacks on home continent, don't know if it's enough/ too much here) + 2/3 for home defense.
3 movement phalanxes beats 2 movement HA/knight, so that should be enough = not too expensive.
Pikemen are more expansive, and don't do better. If you want 35 hammers phalanxes over 60 hammers pikes, you can also make it so you have copper and no iron, but that's tricky if you want swords or crossbowmen.

About parthenon (and even more so with pacifism by the way) : giving all cities a push towards GPP make the national epic not too overwhelming, so you'll pop GP all around the place (+350 % isn't massively superior to +250%, only about 1/4 faster, whereas +200% is 1/2 ahead of +100%).
It can be a good thing, allowing you to waste less GPP.
The "bad" thing is you can't avoid prophets, merchants and engineers, unless you push your GP farm very hard.
Meaning you'll get more GP faster, but not more scientists (probably even less).
I have the feeling you don't cry when you get a great engineer, so it shouldn't be a problem :goodjob:
(wow, what a long post for saying goodjob :()

I've a question for english-speaking people: is the pronunciation of the two identical, quite identical or not at all?

My vote is "almost exactly" identical. To my ear, the two words sound the same, but the shape of my mouth is subtly different.

Disclaimer: I'm American. My status as an "english-speaking people" may be subject to some debate.

Well, dictionary.com gives the same pronounciation for both "burg" and "berg". Who am I to say otherwise? :D

Sounds good, Iceburg and Cowfish are the Last cities that can truly be said to be 'Good' in your home territory, the only other one is a Horses/Silk. And Cow Fish is Better, but I'd get Iceburg anyways, its a worthwhile investment for the Silver Commerce (as the English will settle there anyways if you don't)
If you think the English will settle Iceburg before you liberate the rest of their cities (and perhaps more importantly, you trust the AI to settle it in the right place), I'd be inclined to let Vicky waste the 100 hammers on a settler for you. Any city up there is going to be very easy for you to capture later on since it's up near your production centres, and a couple more Cats will be more immediately useful to you.

I totally agree on the pacifism front. It may cost you 10% in research rate for a little while, but the benefit in more, faster GP will more than make up for it. If the NE pops you any GAs, and no attractive lightbulbing opportunities exist, I'd be inclined to use them to pop Mecca/London immediately out of rebellion to make those cities as useful to you as possible (or save one to do the same thing when you establish your beachhead on the other continent - instant 40% cultural defence makes any counterattack a lot easier to weather).

Happy warmongering!

What a wonderful game :egypt: ... and I mean that literally ... it is a game full of wonders :lol:

You excell yourself again Sisiutil :) and this is turning into another cakewalk, so perhaps you should move up to Monarch, although I'd like a migration to Warlords as well so maybe one Warlords game at Prince level and then introduce a bit more of an AI challenge for you.

I'm not sure what sort of economy you are running right now (mixed probably describes it best) but acquiring the Parthenon as well as the Pyramids and being Alex and philosophical just screams SE from now on. And a full unadulterated hardcore SE at that. You should be chosing farm over cottage on any grassland or floodplain that can be irrigated and thinking of running food specialists. You get a fast response compared with slow cottage growth and huge output of beakers and GPPs.

A city with a library and running 2 scientists (costs 4 food) gives 15 beakers and 15 GPPs. That can be installed in a few turns in newly founded or conquered cities using granary and the whip. Then if you run Pacificm later when you have several cities equipped like that the GPPs climb to an astonishing 21 per library. It really can't get any better than this early in a game.

Corinth could be a specialist powerhouse but I would not be building NE (108 hammers invested so far :( ) there before a granary, forge and 2 monasties ... or running scientists with so much happiness to grow. It needs farms fast not mines and food + granary + forge = lots of :hammers: :hammers: :hammers: . An academy there will make it a research hotspot independent of gold and research slider. Corinth needs to be :whipped: into shape :p and it can churn out beakers and GS for lightbulbing Education and then dash on to to Liberalism for another free tech.

Since this is a wonderful game I am wondering why you are not building the 2 other wonders you could :crazyeye: I mean Chichen Itza and Angkor Wat. You probably don't actually want to build them for real but they are a great source of gold. You need to be sure the AI beats you to them and then you get a nice haul of gold so slow down construction if they near completion. With stone, a forge and OR you can raise 5 gold for 2 hammers which is an astonishingly good rate, and given your financial situation few things could do more for raising the research slider.

Great game Sisutil and fascinating write up. Keep entertaining us :cheers:

so taking account the informations from Krikkitone, VoH and Carl corey... who are all eminently wise players and english-speakers...
I propose a poll so that sisiutil can make a more efficient use of his joke on the next ALC. (yes, even americans, save texans, are english speakers for me, non-native english speaker) (:blush: I hope there is no texan reading me: :spank:)


:old: "To sum all of it :
1) the two spelling "icebUrg" and "icebErg" seems to be pronounced the same way,
2) it seems to me that there is more cities finishing in "-burg" than in "-berg", think of strasburg / hamburg ...etc,
3) IcebErg is already a noun and dilute the joke,
4) Sisiutil seems to love easy jokes,
5) I love them too, it makes the thread even more spicy..
Regarding these 5 points, I vote that sisiutil use the name "icebUrg" the next time he will speak about a city as the current one and still want to try the joke."

anyone concures?

i vote to let sisiutil do all the jokes he wants! (he does it right, don't worry ;))

I know, but it does bring no harm to help him a bit so they are a little better... (or at least I smiled more on Iceburg than on the 1st Iceberg)

the irony is that I'm corrected by a french... I would have thought the spanking would come from a texan :D

oups... ok, I stop this off-topic subject. (currently reading the 1st ALC... it's so great !!)

Where is the challenge implied by Challenge? ;) Look how quickly and easily you are going through the game now. Up your difficulty by two degrees the next time. Warlords Monarch, anyone? Get used to playing Warlords on prince first in your private games, Sisiutil.

Sorry if this seems more appropriate in the poll thread, but my immediate and strongest reaction to the last round was: "The game is probably already won, and so easily too."

Where is the challenge implied by Challenge? ;) Look how quickly and easily you are going through the game now. Up your difficulty by two degrees the next time. Warlords Monarch, anyone? Get used to playing Warlords on prince first in your private games, Sisiutil.

Sorry if this seems more appropriate in the poll thread, but my immediate and strongest reaction to the last round was: "The game is probably already won, and so easily too."

well, it looks like no one can run a wonder race like GEngineering sisiutil...

Sisiutil: its one thing being dogpiled in the game, but being dogpiled on your thread for your wonderful play is a bit much.
BTW Have you worked out how many axes you could have built instead of pyramids/oracle/glib etc etc?

Edit. I think that there is a serious point here. It seems that you do have a tendency to go for wonders and its been pretty much a feature throughout the ALC series. Fair enough, wonders do confer significant advantages. Its also your game and you can play it any darned way you please, its not like you keep losing after all.
I did float the idea of early victory in the pre-discussion thread but this concept does appear to have drifted a bit over the past couple of rounds. I also haven't been as involved as I have in previous ALC games (for all the difference that makes).
One of the thoughts I wish I'd thought of and posted in pre-game discussion was trying something different on the lines of using Oracle for a theology slingshot (instead of CoL/CS or machinery) and using that at the basis of a conquest/domination game. However the game has moved on.

:old: "To sum all of it :
1) the two spelling "icebUrg" and "icebErg" seems to be pronounced the same way,
2) it seems to me that there is more cities finishing in "-burg" than in "-berg", think of strasburg / hamburg ...etc,
3) IcebErg is already a noun and dilute the joke,
4) Sisiutil seems to love easy jokes,
5) I love them too, it makes the thread even more spicy..
Regarding these 5 points, I vote that sisiutil use the name "icebUrg" the next time he will speak about a city as the current one and still want to try the joke."

anyone concures?

I'd call it BrassMonkey

Sisiutil: its one thing being dogpiled in the game, but being dogpiled on your thread for your wonderful play is a bit much.
I'll tell you what, I'll trade you Iron Working if you send your troops there this turn rather than later like you were saying. And yes, of course you should take Athens, but I'd like everything from Corinth to the northeast of that.

I like the suggestion of moving your economy as far as practicable to an SE based, GP crazy, wonderful economy. This would be a quite different style from that most of us play and so we would learn even more. Could also help with the upcoming intercontinental war.

Nice game :)

But looking at the save, I am surpised you are still building cottages.

In a SE population is the key, IMO. If your pop is nowhere near the happiness limit, you have to build farms. If it is near the happiness limit, build mines. If it is over the happiness limit, whip something expensive and build some workers/settlers with the food. The more farms you have, the more specialists you can run. The more specialists you run, the bigger your tech-lead will be.

If you eventually run out of money, attack someone. If you seriously need money, trade a tech or work some sea tiles.

Looking at the save, I'd consider getting some workers to improve the land and grow grow grow your cities :)

The cottages came about because of the sorry state of the Greek economy at the end of the previous round. Since I did not at that time have Currency for Markets, and the advice was against running Caste System, I could not run ANY merchant specialists to compensate for the lack of GPT. Cottages were the only alternative.

Plus we had pretty much agreed on running a mixed economy in this game rather than a pure SE, even with the Pyramids. Which meant cottages around several cities where they would be worthwhile. On a city by city basis:


Athens gets cottages because it's the capital and bureaucracy will benefit from them.
Sparta will get farms because...well, just look at it!
Beijing gets cottages because it has good terrain for them. However, I will consider plowing them under for farms, especially since flood plains are so good for farms, and that is one of the cities with wonders that could produce more GPs.
Shanghai also got cottages because at the time, I needed them, and grassplains don't make for great farms. The cottages are maturing and I'll probably leave them; with all that tundra and two low-food resource tiles, that city is never going to run many specialists.
Corinth gets farms to run as many scientists as possible, pure and simple. However, with the long time the NE is taking, I'll consider changing its build queue.
Thermopylae will get farms. I just haven't been able to lay them down until CS.


It's getting to a point where I will need some more workers, and need them teamed. I'm hoping to capture some from Saladin.

Pacifism may be very attractive. I'll consider it.

And yes, it was fun to suddenly change the temperature on Saladin like that. I don't know how the AI is programmed for this, but the AI seemed very human there, as if thinking that all I'd be doing was pillaging, and then suddenly I captured a city. Serves him right for not coughing up any techs, frankly.

Sisiutil: its one thing being dogpiled in the game, but being dogpiled on your thread for your wonderful play is a bit much.

No harm meant :) I did think that this has been a breeze for Sisiutil, but I guess I forgot that the aim of this ALC is to win quickly, efficiently and beautifully. From a builder's point of view, this aim is being achieved.

No harm meant :) I did think that this has been a breeze for Sisiutil, but I guess I forgot that the aim of this ALC is to win quickly, efficiently and beautifully. From a builder's point of view, this aim is being achieved.

Agreed. Good job, Sisiutil. I rarely build wonders. Before ALC 7&8, I would have never known that an early Great Engineer Farm can get you all those wonders with little or no shift in the per turn production. Push Pyramids and Forge, and it just feeds on itself.

Agreed. Good job, Sisiutil. I rarely build wonders. Before ALC 7&8, I would have never known that an early Great Engineer Farm can get you all those wonders with little or no shift in the per turn production. Push Pyramids and Forge, and it just feeds on itself.
That's definitely the advantage of the Pyramids, too--more GE points. In Warlords, it sounds like it makes the Great Wall worthwhile.

I played the next round last night (will post it tonight), and I got ANOTHER GE in Athens--and I don't know what to do with him! I'm sure several of you will tell me. ;)

Regarding wonders in general, Hans said it first and said it best: I'm a builder at heart. I war so I can build. Wonders are fun, GPs are fun.

And Aelf is bang-on regarding the difficulty level. It's definitely time to move on from Prince, which is starting to feel like Settler to me. The next ALC will go to Monarch, and I want that to be a major focus. We'll discuss how one moves up to and adjusts to that level, and then try to demonstrate it. (Let's not discuss that now, though--hold on for the pre-game thread.)

Nice game so far.

In Warlords, the Great Wall is simply awesome to generate a GE and permit unbridled expansion on Monarch difficulty (all speeds). No fog busters required.

Round 5: to 1330 AD

I begin by taking. I shall find scholars later to demonstrate my perfect right.
- Euripides

The round began with a recommended civics change:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1330AD_01.jpg

As you'll see, that really raised the GP output. Between Philosophical, Pacifism, and the Parthenon, that's a 250% GP bonus--once I completed the National Epic in Corinth, a whopping 350% GP bonus in that city alone!

Sure enough, only a few turns later, my first GP of the Pacifism era appeared--my second Great Scientist out of Corinth:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1330AD_02.jpg

I used him for the Academy, and was gratified to see 1 turn removed from Engineering's research time immediately.

I was, however, not playing the game like a pacifist--oh, no, not me! The war against Saladin remained "hot". First, I spotted a Settler colonly (1 Settler, 1 Archer, 1 Spearman) trying to sneak by Medina on the way to Kufah--no doubt to repeat his attempted settlement north of Athens in the previous round. I destroyed the 2 defenders and obtained another worker.

I was all set to continue south, but this incident made me realize that I needed to clean up my back yard first:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1330AD_03.jpg

I kept the city, as it's one of the ones sigmakan's dotmap specified. Nice of Sally to build it for me.

Then I got my next great person, another Great Engineer out of Athens, in spite of my running two scientists there:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1330AD_04.jpg

I set him aside for awhile. Contrary to a post above where I claimed to not have a use for him, I'd forgotten that I did indeed use him, and rather quickly--as you might guess by what I was researching.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1330AD_05.jpg

As I conquer territory--especially in that jungle--I'll have a lot for my workers to do, so this is a very useful wonder. It also adds to Athens' growing GE points.

And a little while after that, I got another Great Person! Beijing finally produced its long-promised Great Merchant, again in spite of running 1 or 2 scientists for most of the last several turns:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1330AD_06.jpg

I dithered for awhile over his use. I eventually sent him north to Shanghai and settled him there. It's the Confucian holy city, of course, so it gets all the commerce multipliers--but it was the food that convinced me, as the city is a little short of sources of it, and I'm loathe to turf those maturing cottages in favour of farms.

I should take a moment to comment on a related topic, my economy. If you look at all the screen shots, you may notice my research rate fluctuating a great deal. What I'm doing is taking the notion of a hybrid economy quite literally. On the one hand, the specialists allow me to lower the research slider and generate more gold; on the other hand, unlike a pure SE, I can't really go all the way to 0%. I'm using Eggman's tech-turn guideline of 5-10 turns per tech to determine where the slider should be. Even though he specified that range for pure SEs, it's working out well for me. I adjust the slider when beginning to research each tech, trying if I can to research it in 5 turns while maximizing income. For Education, I needed the help of another GS from Corinth, but as we all know, that's an expensive tech anyway; he took it from 15 to 5 turns at 20% on the slider with about a +50 GPT profit--perfect!.

In the war against Arabia, I captured Mecca, electing to keep it and gaining an Academy there for my trouble. Its countryside will be farmed for eventual science specialists. I continued south along Arabia's west coast:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1330AD_07.jpg

Now I started razing cities. Damascus fell to the torch. It was just too close to English territory, as you can see. The maintenance costs would have been painful, and with so little production (as I suspected, England's borders claimed that mine and forest on the next turn) that it would have taken forever to build a courthouse there. I already had fish from Kufah and the new city of Delphi (SW of Beijing), and I'll get dye from another source, as you'll see.

Shortly thereafter, I finished researching a very important tech:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1330AD_08.jpg

I immediately started building two Caravels, one in Athens, one in Beijing. Time to go meet the distant neighbours...

After I captured and razed Najran (another Arabian city whose ruins are visible in the screenshot below), Saladin was nearly done. I decided to send my Flanking I/Sentry Chariot into English territory to scope out the opposition:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1330AD_09.jpg

Hmmm, Longbows. I'll have to stock up on Catapults. I cancelled my horses-for-furs-and-gold trade with Vicky very early in the round. Trading military resources just didn't sit well with me, regardless of all the Phalanxes I pumped out before Engineering came along. I instead focused on getting some other resources on-line (clams, gems) to trade for her luxury goods. Which I will soon be taking for myself, bwa-ha-ha-ha...

Now, every time I took one of Saladin's cities, I went to see him. Would he cough up a tech or two for peace?

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1330AD_10.jpg

Nothin' doin'! I trimmed it down from 3 techs to 2 to 1, and he still wouldn't go for it, no matter how many cities he lost. Frustrating, especially since I didn't want to trade with Vicky, my next victim, and won't have that option anyway once he's gone (remember civs won't trade techs unless they're incontact with at least 2 other ones). Oh well, thanks Optics and its Caravels, I'll soon have contact with the other continent's civs and I should soon be able to tech trade with them. I may still be able to extort techs from Vicky, if she still has any that I want.

Saladin's recalcitrance in that regard had an inevitable result:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1330AD_11.jpg

And Arabia is no more. I kept Baghdad; not only will its revolt end a lot sooner than the one going on there right now, it also gives me access to dye. And I now have a nice little string of Arabian cities across the middle of the continent to act as bulwarks against the English when I attack them.

The northern half of the continent is now entirely Greek:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1330AD_12.jpg

Some things are imminent.

You can see the lighted squares around my two Caravels, the Hermes and the Poseidon. One or both should spot land soon, and then I should be able to tech trade again. I expect to win the circumnavigation race too, since I haven't seen any other Caravels yet.

I also expect to win the Liberalism race. I'm currently 10 turns away from it, and I'll likely choose Astronomy as my free tech for the Observatories (another scientist in my science cities) intercontinental trade, and Galleons.

Victoria dies next. As you saw above, I'm facing Longbows. I will likely take the 10 turns that Liberalism requires to solidify my gains and stock up on Catapults, as I mentioned, as well as some Macemen. Then, with Liberalism obtained, I'll lower the slider, stock up more gold, and upgrade my stack from Axes and Swords to Macemen (which I didn't need against Saladin's pathetic Archers).

My next GP will come out of Athens in 5 turns and has a 61% chance of being a GE, 38% of being a GS. If it's a GS, he'll get settled in Corinth; Athens' base rate of 36 research points/turn at 50% on the slider (where I'd currently break even) doesn't really warrant an Academy, not with the 100% boost from Oxford on the way in Corinth.

If, as seems likely, the next GP is a Great Engineer, however... Okay, I don't want to go counting chickens, but what do I do with him? IIRC, he'll pop techs along the Monarch-Guilds path. Blah. Building Angkor Wat in Sparta doesn't exactly get my tray in the upright and locked position, if ya know what I mean. (Vicky built Chichen Itza, BTW--for all the good it'll do her against my 4 accuracy Cats.) What's coming up on the wonder list? I guess I could go after Music and Notre Dame, the extra happy might be good versus war weariness.

Just watch: we'll all dither over how to use him, and I'll get a GS.

Aside from that, another thing I'd appreciate some advice on is warring against Vicky. You can see from the map that she went city-crazy, and she's got Longbows in all of them. I'll probably raze several since I don't want to be slowed down putting garrisons everywhere. Should I divide my stack in 2? If so, I'll likely need another set of 4 accuracy Cats. Maybe I can get Feudalism and/or Theology from the other continent, run Vassalage or Theocracy for awhile, and build another 4 1-turn-defense-stripping Cats.

What about civics? I don't anticipate using either of Liberalism's "Free" civics right away, if ever. Maybe FR, but only if I need to abandon Representation for PS (war weariness) or US (rush-buying). I guess a lot there will depend on what techs I can snag from the other continent. I'd prefer Vassalage to Theocracy; I'm loving Pacifism, and Vassalage would offset the unit cost to an extent.

Any comments on the hybrid economy? Any tiles/cities you think I should change (cottages to farms or vice-versa)?

Anything else? Fire away!

for the GE, Taj Mahal?

Looks like the amount of cities could probably use 2 stacks to quickly reduce the english to rubble.

for the GE, Taj Mahal?
I suppose--I mean, I did that in the last game (ALC 7). But a couple of posters shook their heads over that one. After all, the TM gives you a golden age. You could do the same thing with the GE by burning him with another Great Person, no wonder required, and time it precisely to best suit your needs because you're not racing anyone.

On the other hand, using a GE for the TM not only bags you the wonder, it preserves the two-GPs-for-a-GA cost for later, if you need it. The TM also comes along at a time in the game when there's usually a dearth of desireable wonders for a long time, so if I have a GE and don't build it, I find he sits around for a long time. Finally, the TM gives you GA points, and by using a GE you can build it whereever you want--probably in the GP Farm/Globe city.

And in this game, I suspect I'll be getting more GEs AND getting to a level of industrial capacity and tech lead where if I really want a wonder, I can build it.

Looks like the amount of cities could probably use 2 stacks to quickly reduce the english to rubble.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Granted, Saladin was a pushover, but most of my CR units were spectators in that war. I mean, my Catapults won most of the battles! And they're supposed to die!

Like I said, I'll just need eight Catapults with Accuracy promotions rather than my usual 4. Okay, I know I don't need them, but we're trying to win fast here, and being able to strip away that cultural defense in one turn (remember Vicky has Chichen Itza) really keeps the war machine rollin' along.

If I can trade for one of the Medieval civic-granting techs (preferably Feudalism for Vassalage) on the other continent, I can churn out Level 3 units easily and get the second stack's 4 A-Cats in no time. Since Vicky has Longbows, I can't expect the Cats to survive for promotion like they did against Saladin.

About the GE: in my first test of the Great Wall - Pyramids strategy in Warlords I had 10 GEs until the end of the game. 10. That's like an infinity, only smaller. At one point I had 4 of them, I built Taj Mahal with one, kept two for the Statue of Liberty, and one for Pentagon. I actually ended up using it on Wall Street I think as my rich city was low on production and I needed some cash to upgrade for my next war. So if you don't want to spend it on the TM, think of keeping him for later. Instant wonders are just too darn fun. :D

Comments :
1) good thing Saladin is gone (less unhappies)
2) about GE (if it's not this one GP, it'll be the next, so still relevent), Notre Dame is good! But how about taj mahal? (some hundreds turns away? Not if you're first to liberalism!) But you still need music before cavalries...
3) About caravels. I don't send them on straight lines, i make them move on diagonals. SW SW SW then NW NW NW (drawing VVVVV if you want). They go just as fast and show much more tiles. Just a small benefit, but for no cost.

edit : so much posts in the few minutes it took me to post this one??? well, for me Taj Mahal doesn't deserve the building, but if you have it for free, it's good enough. Notre dame is better vs ww but, it's just +1 happy, that's not so much.

Hi...

This is my first post...where I kinda try and make a suggestion... But I don't have the game yet so it most likely wont be that good.

Anyways, I think that if you get a GE(Great Enigneer I belive.) and you dont have another GP to merge with(could happen) then you most certainly should GE rush the Taj Mahal.
Another thing is the Taj gives you a chance at a Great artist. Which is the one GP I notice you lacking(You have plenty of GS(Great Scientist), GP, GM(great merchant), GE Points. but no GA points) It also gives 10 Culture. Pretty good for a Wonder.

Also, I have some troubles following every Wonder. But here are some other wonders that can be GE rushed for good:

The Sistine Chapel: Good for Specialists. +2 Culture per specialist. It gives Great Artist(GA) Points. Also, The building itself gives 10 Culture.

The Spiral Minaret: +1 gold per State Religion Building. Good for reducing any debt OR just getting a surplus for Upgrades.

Notre Dame: +1 :) in all cities on this continenet. Not bad. But the Great artist it generates are the reason I recommend it. It also gives out a pretty good 10 Culture.

Globe Theatre(Can this be rushed?): no :mad: From this city. Can turn 3 Citizens into Artists. Generates Great Artist Points.

National Epic(Is this Rushable?): +100% Great people Birth Rate in this city. This thing totally rocks! Imagne the amount of GPP! It also Generates Great Artist Points and gives 4 Culture.

Oh yeah!

Next time you get a Great Merchant, Goto Victoria and conduct a Trade mission. Trust me, The gold is VERY helpful.(Or so I hear)

I don't really Know what to do with a Great Prophet... If it can get theology then use him for that. Otherwise...I dunno. Merging is OK. But you could save him for a golden age and Trigger a Double Golden Age(Taj + Prophet and something else).

Great artist are to be used for ONLY culture bombs. You would culture Bomb something like Baghdad or Mecca with their Low culture.

Great Merchant = Trade mission = MONEY :goodjob: :) :D

Great enigneer? Either save for Golden Age or rush a wonder(Statue of liberty/Eiffel Tower/The kremlin/Pentagon/One of the ones shown above)

Dunno what to use the great scientist on. But I would imagne an academy somewhere.

Also, I dont know if it is possible. But getting thise 3 Inscene/Wine would be nice. And when(if) you declare war on victoria then take her city by the cows and dye. It's a good one.

So...There's my advice. I dont have game experience so it probaly not that good.

Also, Sorry about the spelling.

if he were to do a trade mission it should be to the other continent, not vicky. lots more money that way.

Notre Dame is a pretty good idea for the GE, though. Massive happyness boost for the continent. The reason I suggested Taj was to run the gold at 100%, get a million units out and be able to upgrade them all later. You probably could stand to have a lot more to get England done quickly.

I begin by taking. I shall find scholars later to demonstrate my perfect right.
- Euripides

I love Greek tragedy too. And in keeping with the spirit, I shall offer you another quote:

He seeks absolute power and in one foolish hour overreaches himself, and ends in the gutter.
- Sophocles

Good job so far, but becareful not to overexpand as you wage war against Vicky. You want to be at the forefront of technology to get all the nice wonders, not slowing down and then catching up later. But maybe you can get away with it on Prince.

And, to end my short reply:

Wonders are many, and none is more wonderful than man.
- Sophocles

A good tip for moving on to Monarch ;)

if he were to do a trade mission it should be to the other continent, not vicky. lots more money that way.

Notre Dame is a pretty good idea for the GE, though. Massive happyness boost for the continent. The reason I suggested Taj was to run the gold at 100%, get a million units out and be able to upgrade them all later. You probably could stand to have a lot more to get England done quickly.

Yes. A trade Mission would get more on the other continenet. But Then you have to wait to Find it. Then bring a caraval back/Build another. THEN Put the merchant in and go there. Which would take a lot of time and resources.

Also, Like I said I realy like the Taj. And it is my recommended. Also, if you manage to get enough Great people(I.E. get 2 Great people) Then you might be able to get a Double Golden Age.

if he were to do a trade mission it should be to the other continent, not vicky. lots more money that way.

You know, that's clearly what the manual implies ("The value of the mission increases the further away and wealthier the target city is."), but I paid some attention to that in my last game, and it didn't seem to be borne out in practice. I was going to get nearly twice as much gold from a trade mission to Washington (no more than 20 tiles away from my capital) as I would have to Timbuktu (halfway around the world on a standard size map, at least 2 or 3 times as far as Washington). I haven't had a chance to do extensive experiments, but I'm suspicious of how the value of the trade mission is calculated. In that particular game it seemed that population (Washington was much more populous than Timbuktu) or "wealth" (whatever that is) was much more important than distance.

edit: I should note that this was Warlords. It's conceivable (though I doubt it) that this changed somehow between Classic and Warlords.

What about civics? I don't anticipate using either of Liberalism's "Free" civics right away, if ever. Maybe FR, but only if I need to abandon Representation for PS (war weariness) or US (rush-buying). I guess a lot there will depend on what techs I can snag from the other continent. I'd prefer Vassalage to Theocracy; I'm loving Pacifism, and Vassalage would offset the unit cost to an extent.

Any comments on the hybrid economy? Any tiles/cities you think I should change (cottages to farms or vice-versa)?

Anything else? Fire away!

Well you asked for it :p My overall comments on your game are essentially the same as on ALC #7 at the same stage:
Military 10 / 10
Economy 4 / 10

You have a strong army with great promotions. Once some of the axemen and swords are macemen you will have few problems. Concerning strategy versus Vicky, I'd go for a 2 or even 3 bites-at-the-cherry approach and subdue her in stages and extort whatever techs you can from her as you war-peace-war. So bear that in mind when you trade with the other continents civs - leave something for Vicky to give you.

Economy. :aargh: Have you heard of granarys? And the :whipped: ?

Seriously, Granary + farms + forge + slavery is the best way to build infrastructure and units. Given the choice, a grassland farm is superior to grassland hills (over a 10 turn whip cyle) for all cities less than size 10 and is just about always superior to a plains hill in all situations. Remember :hammer2: 1 pop = 30 base hammers and at size 5 (say) it only takes 15 food to regrow 1 pop with a granary (which is why it is the best building you will ever build in any city :wow: ). So basically, 1 food = 2 base hammers and a grassland farm will give you 20 more food over 10 turns than a grassland hill - so you effectively gain 5 food - since the 30 hammers are equivalent to 1 pop (=15 food). From this I conclude the food / hammer part of your economy is running at about 75% efficiency and much less where you use plains hills. On Prince you are getting away with this, but at higher levels players need to be more careful.

The other aspect of food / pop management is your excessive use of food specialists stunting growth in several good cities. There is little excuse for having specialists eating food when there is 5 or 6 happiness spare and city growth can expand your economy (working more tiles and better trade revenues). You can often forgo a few turns of working food specialists and grow the city and then re-assign the same specialists with 2 or 3 more pop in the city. The loss in beakers and GPPs will quickly be recovered.

Sea Squares: :mischief: Lets see you have Collossus and Great Lighthouse, yet you work almost no coastal sea squares... each giving 2 food and 3 commerce... basically an instant floating village. And harbours boost trade routes by 50% giving +6 base commerce in Athens and +3 in Beijing as well as the + 3 :health:. You will have to build harbours in these cities eventually anyway so the earlier you build them the better the return. Also if you get open borders with the other civs and Astronomy (from Liberalism) your trade revenues will skyrocket and compensate for losing the Collossus benefit.

--------------

Now lets consider a few cities:

Kufah, currently building a library... why? I'd build granary, lighthouse, forge (using plenty of the whip ) and THEN build up the economy there. Going straight for the library does nothing in such a poorly developed city as there is no commerce and no need for culture. Running 2 scientists there (if that is the intention) will just stunt the city. Working a plains hill = :cry:

Mecca is a prize city. So courthouse + libray is :nope: A lot better is granary, lighthouse, (workboat for second crabs?) forge then Library, University and so on to a fully developed and very valuable asset. You need to :whipped: and use food to fuel growth / hammer needs. Incidentally the courthouse can wait a while in a valuable city since you need to boost its growth and productivity as much as possible. Once productivity is high the courthouse is just a few turns effort. Capturing the Academy there is like capturing one of Saladin's GS and makes Mecca a really great city with huge potential.

Delphi is a great little city that will grow like wild fire. Workboat = :yup: and follow with granary, lighthouse, forge ... library and then whatever you like. Incidentally a harbour there will counter the floodplains bad health and once it grows it will be a great overseas trader. The 2 unimproved floodplains need farms = more food = very good.

Corinth :confused: . No granary and working food specialists instead of growth. You didn't take my advice last time :( This city is not pulling its weight and it one of the best sites you had at the start. With hindsight it should not have been made the Science City but only a supporting city. I now think you should have made Athens your Science City... the Bureaucracy bonus plus the Great Library, plus some Towns and commerce from trade (with harbour) and Palace is a great combination of multiple synergies that poor underdeveloped Corinth can never get close to. Originally you might have wanted to keep the GPP pools pure but the NE ruined that and Athens is running food scientists anyway mixing the GPP. Corinth needs to work more farms (food = hammers) and to be :whipped: into shape.

If Athens was your Science City I would settle at least one GE (you get so many) there to give +3 hammers (gets bureaucracy bonus) and +6 beakers (gets the best science bonus) ... but with Corinth being the nominated Science City that is a more difficult decision. Athens could have become a science and production powerhouse with settled GE and GS. We live and learn

------------

Another fascinating game where you do things so differently from me :D I hope my criticisms are taken in the spirit I offered them... afterall you did ask for it.

I haven't had a chance to do extensive experiments, but I'm suspicious of how the value of the trade mission is calculated. In that particular game it seemed that population (Washington was much more populous than Timbuktu) or "wealth" (whatever that is) was much more important than distance.
Looking at the SDK (vanilla), the population of the city is in fact an important factor in addition to the distance (and the question if the specific city is connected to the foreign capital city) - btw: this holds for all trade routes, not just trade missions.

If your own capital city has just a small population, it's even possible that the distance doesn't matter at all.

Sisiutil--

Not much to say here except great job so far.. As to spending the GE for the Taj Majal, I probably would have saved him for one of the later game wonders that I like. But then again, you seem to produce a lot more Great People than I usually do in a game. :mischief:

The fact that Saladin wouldn't give up any techs even though he was about to be eliminated made me alugh. He just did the same in my recent game. Needless to say, he didn't last long. :lol:

Looking for to seeing how you do with monarch!

Thanks everyone, especially UncleJJ--yes, I DO take your comments in the spirit you intend them. I wouldn't post these games if I wasn't willing to learn.

I must confess I still have an aversion to using the whip as much as other players. As the game goes on, I feel like I need population to work my tiles, and as the happiness limit lifts, I prefer to have the city grow. But I like retaining Slavery for as long as possible; every now and then it's extremely useful--such as for quelling unhappiness in a foreign city that just came out of revolt:

"We wish to rejoin our homeland!"

"Do you now? Well, considering the fact that I've killed a good number of your countrymen, if you wish to rejoin them, that can be quite easily arranged. GUARDS!!!"

In addition, I am terrible at micro-management. To properly employ the whip as you describe, I find I have to check every single city extensively at the end of every turn, adjusting tiles worked and so on. Then something distracts me--a wonder or technology near completion, or a war--and I forget to check the cities, and the build completes on its own without my whipping it to take full advantage of the civic. D'OH!! :mad:

I am not scientific or detached; I get emotionally involved in the game, thus I plow ahead sometimes rather than remembering to check every thing before proceeding. Especially as my empire grows. I'm getting better at it, really, I am.

Regarding Corinth--yes, I think I'll have to take some drastic action there to get a granary in place and the population up to a decent size. You hit the nail on the head, there is that desire in me to keep the GP points as pure as possible, but I may go back to the capital/science city combination when the map calls for it. A mix of GEs and GSs is quite acceptable, after all.

EDIT: Another thought--is it too late, do you think, to change UncleJJ's hindsight into foresight and make Athens the science city by building Oxford there? The GL will be obsolete in a little while because of scientific method, and I don't have a settled GS yet.

ace94d--welcome to the forum, and I hope you get the game soon! It's SOOOOO much fun! I am, in fact, racking up some GA points in Thermopylae thanks to the Parthenon. After Athens' GP, in fact, I think my next GP will come from that city, so it could be a GA (it's running 2 scientists, so I think the odds are around 54% in favour of a GA).

Regarding trade missions--yeah, I considered sending Harkuf out on one of my Caravels. An infusion of cash is indeed nice. However, check my gold reserve and GPT. My hybrid economy (despite UncleJJ's failing grade) is generating lots of gold, and by implementing UncleJJ's recommendations it can probably generate a lot more. All I really have to do is lower the science slider a little more and in the same number of turns it takes for a GM to sail the seven seas, I'll have close to the same amount of gold I would get from a trade mission.

And by settling the GM, I get his benefits all game long rather than just getting a one-time cash infusion. Plus a settled GM contributes 1 food to the city, and if there's one thing the ALC contributors have taught me, it's how crucial food is in this game. So on the rare occassions when I get a GM, I tend to use them for trade missions less and less.

I haven't had a chance to do extensive experiments, but I'm suspicious of how the value of the trade mission is calculated.

Last time I checked, it is calculated in precisely the same way that the value of a trade route is calculated...

From memory, the value of a trade mission is the value of a trade route from your capital to the foreign destination multiplied by some scale factor plus a base value for the mission (500? maybe).

The value of the trade route is calculated using either the population of the other city, or the distance to the other city (whichever is lower), then applying a bunch of multipliers. There's an article with the details (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159047) around here somewhere.

Edit: updated with link

First of all, Thanks. It didn't come today(Or so the mailman says... I'm going to check the mailbox later) which means it wont come untill Tuesday.

Anywho. First of all. If you generate a Great Artist. Then I recommend this(Though it may not be possible. Your Borders don't show up on the Globe map thingy).

1. found a city 3 South and 1 Left(I don't know if that's east or west) of mecca. That will give you Fresh Water, Access to Water Tiles, Some Roads, What looks like some Grassland... and some Production. It would also be invaluble for finishing off Victoria(Close to her citys. It should be producing only Units after building a barracks(and maybe a wall))

2. *Drum Roll* C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-CULTURE BOMB(lol). This will Choke Victoria in your borders while you prepare for war. And who knows? Might be able to take Their roads. Which should Raise their TTGT(Time to get there) and lower your TTGT.

Oh yeah, First city to attack is Nottingham or Pharizian(That one by Baghdad. I cant really spell it or read it well). Raze the one by baghdad. Raze nottingham and put a settler one to the left of it. That way you Still get Mine production(I think) and you have better food sources.

Man, Now I feel all Dazy and Spinny :crazyeye: :crazyeye: :crazyeye:

Also, WE ARE THE GREEK. YOU WILL BE ASSIMALTED :scan: :scan: :scan: :scan: :borg: :borg: :borg: :borg: DEFENSIVE CAPABILITES MINIMAL. BEGIN EXCUTION PROGRAM.

Also, What tech will a GP give you?

Versailles would be a good wonder now. Can optimize the home continent or save the Forbidden Palace for the other one. I guess you can capture Versailles on the other continent but there's less control that way.

Saladin was a pushover. Hoping to see some more intense fighting against Vicky. It is getting boring ;)

Just kidding, great game so far. I feel you Sisiutil at the micromanagement. I never mm too much either that is propably why I am having more problems with monarch. You are wonderwise and techwise propably the biggest leader. If you get the macemen up and running with the accuracy cats even Vicky won't be to hard to take down. I say wipe out Vicky first and then build the Taj Mahal. More cities means more advantage of the golden age. Also notre dame is always a good wonder. Happy faces reduces the effects of war.

Great game again, although I am expecting cavalry before 1500 and a domination win at somewhere around 1800. No pressure though :p

Round 6 (to 1620 AD), Part 1: Diplomacy in the New World

Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.
- Euripides

This was a big, long, eventful round, and it's going to take three posts to do it justice. So here goes...

As you might expect, the first part of the round focused on the "new world"--the other continent, its civs, and my relations with them. My eastbound Caravel, the Poseidon, spotted land first and made contact with the leader of Egypt:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADa_01.jpg

Good ol' Hatty. She founded Hinduism and has a few techs I don't. I didn't trade anything at first though; I wanted to make contact with the other three remaining civs and figure out the lay of the land before making any diplomatic moves I might regret later.

Meanwhile, I took UncleJJ's advice to heart--he obviously put a lot of thought and effort into that post, it was the least I could do. In fact, I printed it out and tried to use it as a guide. For example, rather than running after research infrastructure in Corinth, I chose to do a different build that I thought the good Uncle would approve of:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADa_02.jpg

This is the sort of whipping I know how to do: wait until a build is as close to completion as you can get it, make sure there's no remaining unhappiness from a previous whip, and then whip away one pop and let the overflow go into the next build. The whipping I suck at is trying to whip away two or more citizens, especially if I'm near the happiness limit. When factors like forges and Organized Religion get thrown in, I can't keep the calculations straight; I wait a turn too long and am faced with whipping away one citizen instead of two and keeping the city over its happiness limit. I usually just wind up throwing something into the queue that will put me well under the happiness limit and whip away a huge number of citizens in one fell swoop. I know it's not optimal, but like I've said in the past, I don't play with a calculator beside me.

Okay, that's a lie. I do now, but I mainly use it for calculating my next Great Person. Calculating the intricacies of every city's build is just a little too obsessive-complusive for me.

My other Caravel, the Hermes, met up with the next civ a couple of turns later:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADa_03.jpg

Whoa, poor Cyrus isn't doing so hot this game! He has the same techs on offer that Hatty does... interesting.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADa_04.jpg

In fact, ALL of the AI Civs have pretty much the same list of techs! Coincidence? I think not. It's obvious to me that most of the AI Civs have the same research priorities in mid-game.

I still had one more civ to meet. However, Cyrus and Hatty are usually easy to get along with even if you don't share their religion. As if to prove that point, I checked their relations and found them "pleased" with one another, with Open Borders and a couple of resource trades to back that up. So I knew I wouldn't be offending one by trading with the other.

So I went to poor ol' Cyrus with an offer he couldn't refuse:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADa_05.jpg

That made Cyrus "pleased" with me too, as you can imagine. It also won me the circumnavigation bonus, thanks to his map:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADa_06.jpg

Interestingly-shaped continent, no? And look, down in the southeast--is that a puke-green city with an unpronounceable name with an 'X' in it I see? Now who could that be? We'll meet up with Mr. Charm a little later...

On the following turn, the techs from Cyrus opened up another valuable tech for someone planning on doing a little warmongering. This time I went to Hatty:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADa_07.jpg

Cyrus had Feudalism too, but Hatty had some gold to offer, a complimentary world map, and I might as well try to make her "pleased" with me as well. Still, Hatty is my nearest competitor in some respects, so I tried limit the trades in her favour as much as possible.

I didn't change any civics. I was mainly building infrastructure; I was also going after Liberalism, then the free GM from Economics, and I didn't want those races interrupted by Anarchy. My plan was to attack Victoria quickly with the units I had (all the Swords and Axes upgraded to Macemen now), then sue for peace. I'll use Vassalage and Theocracy later on.

Back home, my next GP appeared: a Great Engineer in Athens. In a move that I'm sure will spark debate, I found an unusual use for him:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADa_08.jpg

That's right, I settled him in Corinth, the science city. Hey, six flasks and three hammers for the rest of the game are not to be scoffed at. I've already got an impressive roster of wonders, and there were none appearing anytime soon that I considered vital, so I figured he might as well help out my hammer-poor science city.

Speaking of science and research...

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADa_09.jpg

Astronomy was a no-brainer: now that I had friends on the other continent and was about to lose one on my own, I needed resources to keep my people happy and healthy.

Shortly thereafter, I had my trades in place:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADa_10.jpg

I later added Sugar from Cyrus as well. The poor guy had to rebuild his plantations because... well, I think you can guess why:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADa_11.jpg

Well, howdy-do to you too, Chuckles.

Monty's attitude towards me is no surprise: he was at war with Cyrus at this point, and probably not for the first time (did you notice that Persian city on the map, Tarsus, coloured Aztec green?). So my trading with his "worst enemy" did nothing to endear me to him. So much for making him my pet dog in this game. I guess I'll just have to, ah, liberate those gold mines from his greedy grasp...

Nearly 100 years had past, and I'd built some more units, including reinforcing the prize city of Mecca and building walls there--just in case. I had my stack poised on English borders, just south of Baghdad. There was only one thing left to do...

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADa_12.jpg

To be continued...

Round 6 (to 1620 AD), Part 2: War in the Old World

The man who runs may fight again.
- Menander

Right after I declared war, I got my next great person. The National Epic in Corinth finally had its say in the science city's GP production:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADb_01.jpg

He would have given me Drama (go figure why Hatty wasn't willing to trade that one), but I could get it on my own in one turn anyway. So instead, I sent him to Baghdad to accompany the troops--a Civ 4 version of USO, I suppose. We'll get back to Thespis later.

My sneak attack paid off on the east coast, though it cost me all my Catapults (darned hill cities!):

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADb_02.jpg

I decide to keep Phoenician. It would bust fog and also serve as a protective waystation for units heading south to the front. I did not have my second stack anywhere near completion yet, so Mecca was simply hunkered down with about a half-dozen units behind its walls, awaiting a counter-attack which, thankfully, never came.

I was a little nervous because Victoria was #2 in power, behind Montezuma, leaving me at #3! During the first part of the round, I'd sent a Chariot through her territory and revealed several stacks of Longbowmen, Macemen, Catapults, and Crossbowmen in her core cities (London, Warwick, Nottingham, Canterbury). Good thing I cut off that horse trade to her a long time ago, or she'd have Horse Archers and Knights instead of just a couple of pitiful Chariots.

Fortunately, I was going to soon have some Knights of my own...

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADb_03.jpg

And a good thing, too, since Knights are the counter to Crossbows.

Meanwhile, I continued to press my advantage. My earlier reconaissance had revealed Vicky's eastern cities to be weakly defended, so I kept going in that direction:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADb_04.jpg

Now you might notice that I'm short of something critical: Catapults! All I had with me were my four Accuracy Cats to strip the city's defenses away. Once that was done, it came down to brute force...

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADb_05.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADb_06.jpg

Rather costly; I lost two City Raider III Macemen who had to act as Catapult substitutes. But if I'd left things any longer, the city would have probably been reinforced and much harder to take.

I brought in Thespis to do his sweet funky:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADb_07.jpg

With the city magically out of revolt, I immediately whipped up some walls:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADb_08.jpg

Even with the culture bomb, Hastings was facing pressure (and a very easy counter-attack). Plus I didn't have access to the vineyards which were the main reason I decided to keep the city. There was nothing else for it: the city to its south, Coventry, had to go.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADb_09.jpg

BURN BABY, BURN indeed. However, you might notice that Victoria finally grew a couple (in a manner of speaking) and was encircling Hastings. Not only that, I now had several City Raider Macemen and Catapults out in open terrain. And to my horror, even after taking two of her cities and razing another, I discovered that Vicky "Refuses to talk!"

The garrison in Hastings would just have to endure until the next turn, when I hoped Vicky would be a little more reasonable:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADb_10.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADb_11.jpg

I managed to get away with nothing worse than a lowered city defense and a couple of XPs, because Vicky had indeed come to her senses:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALCAlex1620ADb_12.jpg

She had no techs to offer, but that's not such a bad thing: part of my aim was to cripple her research and leave her stifled and vulnerable to the next round of attacks.

And what did I do in the following, blissful years of peace, you may wonder?

To be continued...

And what did I do in the following, blissful years of peace, you may wonder?

Drank tea and ate crumpets?

Round 6 (to 1620 AD), Part 3: Hi-ho, hi-ho, a-building we will go...

Chance rules our lives, and the future is all unknown. Best live as we may, from day to day.
- Sophocles

Once diplomatic relations with Vicky returned to a peacetime footing, it was time to go back to building... up for the next round, of course.

First off, I won another tech race:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1620ADc_01.jpg

I did a quick little civics change to take advantage of it.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1620ADc_02.jpg

Yes, I skipped Mercantilism, since it became available after Astronomy and all those lovely intercontinental trade routes.

And the Great Merchant appeared in the capital:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1620ADc_03.jpg

After all my preaching about the advantages of settling a GM previously in this thread, I decided to send this fellow off to see the world. I know Ayn Rand isn't Greek, but she was right when she said, "There is a certain Buddhistic calm that comes from having money in the bank."

Meanwhile, Islam was founded in Egypt, and Hatty declined to share Divine Right with me. Her buddy Cyrus, however, wasn't as particular:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1620ADc_04.jpg

I often bypass DR completely, especially if I'm not chasing religions and another civ beats me to it. However, its Wonders can be handy, so I decided to pursue them both.

Speaking of Wonders, I finished another one in Thermopylae thanks to chopping everything in sight:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1620ADc_05.jpg

That should help with the war weariness that will no doubt appear when we attack Vicky again.

And my GM, Hanno, made it all the way to the Egyptian capital:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1620ADc_06.jpg

Okay, so the coffers are ridiculously full now thanks to him and the hybrid economy that's really more of a specialist one right now. This is FUN.

Meanwhile, guess which tech path I was following?

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1620ADc_07.jpg

Poor Vicky ain't gonna know what hit her! With Chemistry in hand for Grenadiers, I immediately started after Nationalism and Military Tradition for Cavalry. I also started using another trick in anticipation of my approaching change to Vassalage and Theocracy, the "war civics". I started building units to within one turn of completion in several cities, especially Sparta:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1620ADc_08.jpg

Once I change civics, I'll let them all complete with the higher XP levels.

Meanwhile, thanks to the Parthenon and Notre Dame, I got another Great Artist:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1620ADc_09.jpg

Maybe I'll use him to culture bomb London after I take it; or perhaps I'll save him for the other continent? Too bad I'm not playing for a cultural win!

And I held off on the civics change to ensure I completed one more wonder:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1620ADc_10.jpg

Between that and the banks I've been building in my best commerce cities, I'm raking it in. I've upgraded almost all my existing Macemen to Grenadiers, but I'll need gold to upgrade the next few Macemen I'll produce with City Raider promotions, as well as upgrading my Knights to Cavalry.

With the wonder complete, it was time for the civics change:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1620ADc_11.jpg

Farewell, Pacifism; you served us well.

And that is where I left off. Here's a look at the map:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1620ADc_12.jpg

So, here are some things to discuss (you may have more, of course):

War with England: Which cities to keep, which ones to raze? I myself think London is a definite keeper, while Nottingham, with its typical-AI-one-tile-from-the-coast location has just got to go. Liverpool is a non-starter as well. I'm thinking of hanging on to Dover, since I lack a city in that central jungle area, but is it in the best location? I'll probably keep York for access to the furs, but Newcastle and Oxford, I dunno... And what about Warwick and Canterbury?

Before I go counting chickens, I may take a traditional one-big-stack-o-doom approach to smashing most of England. Vicky still has a LOT of units in her core cities, including several catapults. I'm thinking of hitting Liverpool and Dover with a smaller stack out of Mecca while the big main one attacks Warwick, where the stacks will unite.

We should also start giving some thought to the desired victory conditions. I'm thinking Killroyan has the right idea: a domination win, which will probably require several Galleons going after either Monty or Cyrus. Monty may have more units, but he's further behind technologically and may make the easier target.

Regarding research, I think I'm being a bit too frugal. I should probably jack up the science slider and claim several key military techs such as Military Tradition, Steel, and Rifling ASAP. I know I've been saving a lot of gold for upgrades, but I just don't think I'm going to need THAT much. The other option is to do another civics change in a little while to Universal Suffrage for some rush-buying. Maybe I should have done that this time, but as I mentioned, I'm still researching several key military techs and I know it's my specialists and the Representation bonus that are keeping me ahead.

Thoughts?

Here's the saved game file:

Drank tea and ate crumpets?
Oh, hardy-har-har, my supercilious friend! Not so, not so, as proven by the ridiculously lengthy post above!

I'm curious as to how you feel the pace of the game is going compared to Frederick. It looks like things from a conquest perspective are moving a lot slower. 1600s and you haven't taken your own continent yet, I think the idea of a 'fast' win is now out the window.

Maybe somebody else will pipe in saying you made too many Wonders and not enough military units, so I can take the high road ;).

I'm curious as to how you feel the pace of the game is going compared to Frederick. It looks like things from a conquest perspective are moving a lot slower. 1600s and you haven't taken your own continent yet, I think the idea of a 'fast' win is now out the window.

Maybe somebody else will pipe in saying you made too many Wonders and not enough military units, so I can take the high road ;).
Hmmmm, good point. How did that happen? How did I get distracted?

I think it was the Pyramids; they started it. Wonders are like potato chips--ya build one, ya gotta build 'em all...

too lazy to go in and dotmap, but you're probably going to want to raze entirely too many cities. This one looks in the bag though.

I'd say Monte is your first target...

If you're going for domination then you may as well keep the english cities, you'd only have to build new ones otherwise.
Point about wonders vs axes made ages ago.

Since the other island is hardly developped (very few cities from what I can see) domination should be rather easy if you ask me. I wouldn't raze too many cities either since you will be wiping Vicky of the island. It is better to take over a size 10 city then to burn if you ask me. Just build the forbidden palace in London and you are set. Enough coastal cities, superior forces so after the liberation of your island the other one is up. There is however one thing, aren't their supposed to be 7 advisaries? I only count 6 of them. Is Togu playing the isolasionist on an island in the dark spot of the map?

There is however one thing, aren't their supposed to be 7 advisaries? I only count 6 of them. Is Togu playing the isolasionist on an island in the dark spot of the map?
Saladin and Mao have already been finished off, which completes the set.

Looking at the map (and assuming domination, rather than conquest is the preferred victory condition), keep the English cities to help speed that along. With your tech advantage, you'll absolutely steamroll both Vicky and Monty (no need to be conservative in your attack plan, and with Theocracy + Vassalage, new units aren't much worse than existing ones (CR 3 aside) so a quick blitz of English territory whilst massing Frigates, Galleons and Cavalry down by Newcastle and Canterbury for a two-pronged assult on the Aztec empire seems like the best bet. With a medic somewhere in each stack of ships, any injured units will heal on the voyage so there's no need to wait around to heal at home either.

Going for Monty, you may even be able to bribe Hatty and/or Cyrus into the fray (might as well exploit your tech edge if you're not going for conquest), which will draw some of his forces north leaving the south easier for you to liberate.

about the english cities, if you keep all those 10+ cities, you cover the whole continent (just keep your GA for York)
To speed up things a bit more, you could build a few (2/3 should be enough) settlers for the north tundra/snow too.

After that, it's tiles counting. I suspect Monte's land should be enough+nothing lost attacking him.

If you are looking for a way to make things interesting, I'd recommend trying the Sirian doctrine (frigates to bombard and units attacking from the sea) just to see if you can make it work in these circumstances. That would call for coastal targets, so Hatty and Cyrus would be the obvious targets.

obviously, monte will have coastal cities too!
And the Sirian doctrine is really powerful at a cost, for non amphibious units. Just send a few suicide cats/cannons before top troops to get even...

That round has laid the foundations of global domination. :) Now your economy is robust enough to easily fund rapid expansion and a big military.

I think you can safely keep all the English cities. As long as you built courthouses and other economic stuff and run a few merchants they will add production and beakers at no net cost in gold. All of them seem to have something going for them. Nottingham for instance gets you whale and Oxford would give crab which you don't have yet since the tundra city north of Athens was never built. Several are already Taoist although you don't have that shrine yet (and probably won't get it now :( )

Strategically, it seems to me you can either try to finish Vicky off in one go which might take a long time. Or you could just take London and half her cities leaving her severely weakened. Then make peace. Meanwhile, if you build 6 or 8 galleons while you were beating Vicky, you could switch your attention to the other continent. Embark the main army and sail. During the 10 turn peace with Vicky (she can't attack you then) and while the fleet sails to the other continent keep building good troops. Cavalry, Grenadiers and Cannons (by then). Then in one mighty double war finish off Vicky and invade whoever is your target on the other continent. Just grab a couple of cities there perhaps, to make a beachhead. I think your economy and military technical advantage can easily support this venture with little risk.

Once Vicky is finished off your new home army can be sent to the other continent to get the Domination. That might be the fastest way to finish the game. Vicky would probably tie you up too long if you finished her off before starting overseas.

Incidentally, I just love the Unit build queue in Sparta right now.:lol: That takes the record for most stored up military potential (8 units with 1 turn to complete). The pikemen, macemen and muskets you are building will be more than adequate garrison troops against Vicky and the technological midgets on the other continent, so there's no urgent need to upgrade them.

Cavalry and Cannons will make this a breeze from here on in. Just be sure to start building galleons soon enough. There is a definite possibility you'll finish this game before Freddie in ALC 7.

Thanks, everyone, for the compliments and the advice on the remaining game plan. Yes, since domination is now the goal, keeping rather than razing cities makes sense, especially since, as UncleJJ points out, several of them claim some resources I don't have yet. The option of pausing the war with her could be handy especially if war weariness becomes a problem, though I do have the option of using the culture slider to fight it.

I suppose I could still go after conquest, but it just seems daunting and a lot of work, and will probably take longer than domination. I'll do it one day--maybe as the Romans on a Pangaea map.

I will start building Galleons and try the "Sirian Doctrine". I've done something like that before; in the Monty game, my Artillery attacked directly from Transports before my Marines mopped things up. It sounds straightforward enough, but just so I don't miss anything, is there a link to a more detailed description...?

Back to the Wonders versus Axes debate... as this is my final Prince game, I think I'm just having fun, flexing my muscles... and yes, showing off. I built all those wonders because, dammit, I just could.

I know I've become quite the warmonger, but I'm a builder at heart. There are other turn-based strategy games out there which will remain nameless (*cough* *cough* Age of Empires *cough* *cough*) that are really just war games. I love Civ because yes, you can warmonger, but there are other options too.

I will start building Galleons and try the "Sirian Doctrine". I've done something like that before; in the Monty game, my Artillery attacked directly from Transports before my Marines mopped things up. It sounds straightforward enough, but just so I don't miss anything, is there a link to a more detailed description...?

You might want to build frigates first. At least make sure you don't neglect them. The key point to the approach is that you want to bombard cities with your ships so you can do an amphibious assault against a city with 0% cultural defense. Since it takes 10 bombardments for frigates to bring a city to 0%, you either need a whole ton of frigates or you need to get your frigates on the scene early to start bombarding and let the galleons catch up a few turns later.

It depends on whether you're going for fastest (competing with Frederick, yes?) or ... different. I recognize the need for speed, :yup: but I'd argue for going the long way 'round to conquest. It's one of the victories you don't have under your belt. You might have an opportunity to learn new tactics and have a different discussion. I forced myself to go for it in my last completed game. I made some interesting tactical mistakes and discovered a few new ideas.

From my perspective, here's the breakdown: Going for domination has a been-there done-that quality to it. How many ALC games have ended with a domination win? Will we learn anything new (Grab your home continent, get a few cities on the other continent by sacking the weakest opponent)? I don't think so. (Though, I admit that a run at this Sirian Doctrine sounds interesting...)

I note in preview that you've decided to go for domination, so I'll cut this short. I understand that it takes longer to go for conquest, but that's the point. We do it because it's a challenge, because it's hard.

Just build the forbidden palace in London and you are set.

If he gets Versailles completed in Hastings, wouldn't the Forbidden Palace just be overkill? In this situation, I wonder how effective it would be to built the Forbidden Palace in Bejing (where it would contribute additional Great Merchant points) then move the palace to the new continent once he gets a strong foothold there. I've never done anything like this myself, and I don't know if it would be too risky.

In terra or continents, I always build versailles first (since I don't want anyone else to have it), and save the forbidden city or the palace to place on the other continent. If the continent you started on leaves your palace in a good central location, I put the forbidden city on the far continent and leave the palace where it is. If the palace is on the edge and out of ideal position, I will drop the forbidden city in the best spot and move the palace to the new continent. (Production and benefits aren't worked out so I am not sure whether it actually pays off to move the palace.)

In terra or continents, I always build versailles first (since I don't want anyone else to have it)

Interesting. Shortly after discovering civfanatics, I discovered a post which suggested that Versailles is the one wonder you prefer that somebody build for you (preferably a target :hammer:), and haven't questioned that idea since.

Very nice Round.

Great artist eh? Make sure to take Liverpool(Looks like a good site to me). Maybe you should then Culture Bomb it?

Not sure about the other cities. But Oxford could be a Fishing Village(I think).

I'm usually not a big fan of holding onto great people, but you might want to consider keeping that artist for use on the other continent. Assuming you plan to eliminate Victoria sooner or later, you shouldn't have too much trouble getting your borders to expand sufficiently on the homeland. Overseas, however, the artist might be just what you need to establish a beachhead or to accelerate the final push toward domination.

If you're looking at domination its worth considering that you've got unclaimed tiles to the north of your continent just waiting a couple of settlers and theatres; probably save you taking 3-4 cities on other continent.

Interesting. Shortly after discovering civfanatics, I discovered a post which suggested that Versailles is the one wonder you prefer that somebody build for you (preferably a target :hammer:), and haven't questioned that idea since.

Actually that sounds like an awesome idea.

Early in my gameply, I had played a game where another AI built it in an absolutely awful location (right next to my Forbidden City as a matter of fact). I placed the Forbidden City close to the enemy intending to expand into the enemy territory and my target had the Versailles built only a few tiles away just before the attack started. After that, I started trying to beat the enemy to the Versailles every game and I hadn't questioned THAT idea until now. Cool, thanks.

Great artist for the last inch of domination... nice.

That is why I suggested the forbidden palace in London.
1. It is further away from your capital
2. Versailles could be build on the other continent (Vicky is not going too anyway with you knocking on her doors)

Using the great artist to get that last bit of domination control sounds like fun and a nice twist.

Round 7: to 1824 AD

We live, not as we wish to, but as we can.
- Menander
I started this round pretty much determined to do in Vicky once and for all. I was going to have Cannon, Cavalry, and Grenadiers to face her medieval units; it made no sense to me to give her 10 turns of peace to catch up in some regard.

I built up my units first with all those lovely Vassalage/Theocracy promotions. I also took some advice about claiming some of the territory up north and founded Iceberg... er... Pharsalos:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826AD_01.jpg

I was also thinking about the health bonus from the crabs, of course.

Once I finished researching Steel, I blew a huge wad of cash upgrading almost all of my Catapults to Cannon; at 200 gold a pop, that isn't something I'd normally do, but between the trade mission and the hybrid economy I figured I could get away with it, especially since it would probably speed up the war, or so I hoped.

In 1690, it was time to get the ball rolling:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826AD_02.jpg

My first target was Liverpool, since it would provide a buffer to the valuable city of Mecca:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826AD_03.jpg

Now as I've played more Civ IV, the composition of my stacks has gotten a little more sophisticated, or so I like to think. I learned the trick, a long time ago, of including at least one Medic unit in the stack; then I learned to make sure he was one of the weaker units so he wouldn't get chosen to defend against a counter-attack. I also learned to include a "protective" unit (no CR promotions!) that would absorb the counter-attack.

One of the latest units I've started to include in the stack is a "recon" unit: a mounted unit with Flanking I and Sentry promotions. His job is to scout out the next target and to spot an approaching counter-attack. I had one of these units in each of my stacks--the one that took Liverpool, and the one that was waiting in Hastings to pounce on Warwick. I sent each of them one tile into enemy territory for a look see.

Here's what the Cavalry recon unit out of Hastings spotted in Warwick:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826AD_04.jpg

Whoah! Quite a few units there, even if they are all medieval era. The Cavalry unit turned tail and trotted back across the border.

Now this is the same turn that I took Liverpool. On the following turn, I sent the same Cavalry unit across the border again, and suddenly a bunch of the units that had been in Warwick had vanished! No more dreaded '...'! But that was no comfort, because... well... where were they?!?

It was the recon Cavalry unit out of Liverpool that spotted them again:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826AD_06.jpg

Yeah, headed straight for my recent acquisition. Instead of moving the west coast stack towards Dover as I had first intended, I hunkered them down in Liverpool. I even pried open the treasury and upgraded my 4 Accuracy Cats to Cannon (3 on this turn, one on the next).

Fortunately, spending all that gold wasn't going to be as painful as it first appeared:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826AD_05.jpg

I normally don't like having a golden age during a war--it's the builder in me--but this time, it suited me just fine.

You might notice that I was researching Constitution. Huh? What about Rifles? Well, I was a little concerned about war weariness and figured a few well-placed jails would come in handy. I also had my eye on Democracy and the Statue of Liberty--free specialists being very helpful to a hybrid or specialist economy, and a boon to a Philosophical civ as well.

So on the following turn, Victoria's stack advanced into my territory:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826AD_07.jpg

Now I was actually delighted about where she placed her troops. As has been revealed in another thread (IIRC thanks to Krikkitone, CFC's own XML guru), war weariness is brought on by units of either side being killed outside your borders. Units killed inside your borders do not count towards war weariness. So I could basically wipe out her stack free of charge, which is pretty much what I did. I lost maybe one Cannon and my units earned a lot of XPs in the process--including CR III for several of the Macemen, who promptly got upgraded to Grenadiers. Thanks, Vicky!

The golden age was helping out in other regards, such as completing some very expensive builds:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826AD_08.jpg

I should also mention that once I had Steel I started building drydocks in just about every coastal city, then started churning out Frigates and Galleons in anticipation of invading the other continent. I may have focused on this a little too much, but we'll see.

And yes, I finally started researching towards Rifling. Hatty had beaten me to Printing Press and Replaceable Parts and refused to trade them to me. Once again, though, she traded them to Cyrus, and the runt of this particular Civ litter was happy to oblige me:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826AD_09.jpg

With Vicky's stack gone and my two stacks hard at work, the war progressed as one might expect. Eventually I closed in on the main prize, London itself, and this is where I chose to use the Great Artist:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826AD_10.jpg

Why London? Remember I'd had Steel for several turns now, and London was clearly the best candidate for the Ironworks city, what with all those flood plains tiles that could host watermills. I wanted to get on with it! Even so, I had a lot of unhappy citizens to deal with, and I had to whip many of them away for infrastructure before I was able to start on the Ironworks.

I'm SO glad I've stuck with the Slavery civic this long! I'm not using it as much in my core cities, since I'm getting to the point where I need and want large populations. However, I did use it in a few of them to deal with growing war weariness. I also bumped the culture slider a couple of times to deal with it as well. Fortunately I'd built a Jail in Corinth early on, so my main science city never succumbed to WW. And I built the Globe Theatre in Delphi--I figured with all that extra food, it was the logical city to be my "whipping boy". (Nyuk, nyuk. Better or worse than "Iceberg"?)

Oh yes, and I was researching towards Physics now rather than Rifling! What gives? Well, first off, Hatty, the little minx, beat me to Scientific Method. And after so many Great People and the abandonment of the Pacifism civic, my next GP was going to be very expensive and a long time coming. So I really wanted that free Great Scientist! My Grenadiers were doing a splendid job, so I figured the Rifles could wait. I did get the GS from Physics, thank you very much, and I settled him in Corinth with several of his buddies.

There were still several cities to capture, and slogging through England's large cultural borders, one tile per turn, slowed me down, even operating two stacks. I kept every English city I took, as several of you recommended. That also slowed me down, as I had a plethora of City Raiders and not nearly enough good defensive units with Combat, Pinch, Shock, and Cover promotions.

Finally, in 1824 (!) it was all over:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826AD_11.jpg

It took long enough that my next GP showed up, as if to celebrate the end of hostilities and the conquering of the continent. He appeared in Sparta--guess what type he was?

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826AD_12.jpg

Yes, a Great Prophet for the Taoist shrine! That was a pleasant surprise; it was pretty much a 1-in-4 chance of a GP, GS, GA, or GE out of Sparta with the mix of wonders and specialists that it's been running. I put the city into stagnation just to run a priest specialist for the last few turns and bring out the GP sooner; that may have made the difference. The next GP will likely be a GS from Corinth, but not for quite some time.

Below you'll find the save. Before we discuss how I should proceed next, I'll do a follow-up post with more information about the state of the world in 1826 AD.

Round 7, Supplementary: The State of the World in 1826 AD

Before we make any more decisions about how to proceed, a little information would, I think, be helpful. Once the war against Vicky was done in 1824 and the continent united under the Greek banner, I played one more turn to get an idea as to how things really stood in peacetime. This was also important because you might notice that it meant I finished researching a very important technology for a hybrid or specialist economy such as mine:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826ADb_01.jpg

Biology, of course, means more food, which means more specialists in each city. I spent a lot of time at the end of this turn assigning more specialists, mostly scientists, in just about every city.

Where do I stand vis-a-vis the other civs in terms of technology?

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826ADb_02.jpg

I'm researching Communism for State Property to really fire up London's Ironworks, which will complete in a little over a dozen turns. Also, I suspect Hatty is already building the Kremlin and I'd like to beat her to it. With all the gold I have and can generate, I'm definitely anticipating Universal Suffrage for rush-buying at some point. The Kremlin may be the Ironworks' first wonder. (Oh, Medina is working on the Statue of Liberty at the moment...)

My friends and relations:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826ADb_03.jpg

Speaking of civics, Theology has kind of run its course. I suspect that Hatty has been so reluctant to trade any technologies because of our religious differences. I usually like to switch to Free Religion once I have Scientific Method anyway; the +10% science boost for each city helps make up for the loss of the benefits of monasteries. And the happy boost would be welcome as well.

Hatty was at least good enough to spread Hinduism to Beijing, and I was smart enough to spread it to Corinth and Athens and build monasteries for it. So I have Confucianism in every city, and two more religions I can spread to them as well. Spreading Taoism would be the first priority, now that I have its shrine.

Speaking of which, once I get Corporation, where should Wall Street go? One of the holy cities makes the most sense, but which one? Confucianism is wider-spread and Shanghai has established cottages, most of which are now towns; but it also has a lot of tundra. It also has several nearby forests, though, that can be chopped to rush along WS. Thermopylae has more grasslands, but I'd have to change the current farms to cottages and switch to Emancipation to really get them rolling.

Yeah, I'm thinking Shanghai. Not the best WS city I've ever had, but it will do.

On the subject of money, here's the trade situation:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826ADb_04.jpg

Basically, I refused to trade with Monty at all to keep Hatty and Cyrus happy. Every time I saw that one of my two friends had at least 2 GPT for trading, I offered them another resource. They're also supplying me with some helpful resources as well. All this makes Monty the logical first target on the other continent.

So let's have a closer look at that other continent:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826ADb_05.jpg

I did a little trading of maps with Hatty and Cyrus to get a better picture of how things look over there. (That bright spot is a Scout I've had running around on auto-explore--but given the lack of Open Borders with Monty, I needed my two friends' intel on his territory.

Now here's a close-up of the southern, Aztec-owned tip of the continent:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826ADb_09.jpg

The Aztec capital has to be in the fog in the middle of this area. It will exert a lot of cultural pressure on the surrounding cities--it is the Buddhist holy city, after all.

So I could hit two cities on each coast, or I could converge my eastern and western fleets on one. Either way, I think it makes sense to start here and then fight my way north.

Power-wise, I have a pretty good lead on Monty:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826ADb_07.jpg

Of course, I'm also way ahead of him on techs. I anticipate, as with Victoria, another Industrial-versus-Medieval era clash. Since Hatty is ahead of him on techs as well, Monty probably owns the #2 spot thanks to sheer numbers, as usual. So as we plan our strategy for taking the other continent, keep in mind that my forces will likely have to soak up a huge counter-attack.

And I, er, used my Great Artist already. :blush:

I also should have focused a little more on producing some good defensive units rather than all those ships. I'd love to set sail right away, but I'd feel a lot more comfortable with a few more properly-promoted Rifles on board. This may argue more in favour of taking one of Monty's cities to begin with rather than two.

Anyway, here is how the victory conditions look:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC8/ALCAlex1826ADb_08.jpg

So we actually have a long way to go, either for domination or for conquest. I still think attacking Monty first is the way to go, and I might be able to get Hatty or Cyrus or both of them to join in. After that, if it's conquest, Hatty would be next since she's more powerful and advanced, then poor Cyrus. Meanwhile, I'd be teching towards Infantry, Tanks, and Flight--the latter especially for airports and air-dropping troops.

Yeah, I'm leaning towards conquest again--pax's post hit home. And as Eggman pointed out, I kinda messed up the whole finish early/finish big plan. So why not go the long way around and finish Prince level with a victory condition I haven't accomplished yet?

So... with that in mind:

Civics: Should they be changed? To what, and when?

Research: Where to from here?

War: Is everyone agreed on Monty first? How, where?

Victory: We're pretty close to domination. How do we avoid winning it by accident on our way to conquest? We can't raze everything... we need a beachhead, and we need cities for later airdrops.

It promises to be a big finish. I look forward to your help in accomplishing it.

Great thread. Loaded with information and entertaining to boot.

Anyways I would take on monti first as well.

Every time I saw that one of my two friends had at least 2 GPT for trading, I offered them another resource.

I noticed you this in one of the previous games, but I forgot to mention it. IMHO, you'd be better off cancelling the original trade and then renegotiating for a higher price. The deals you have in place now are giving each of your allies 3 resources for the same amount of money you could likely get for just one. Of course, if they're truly allies, then that's great, but if you plan to eventually consider them rivals, then you're unnecessarily helping out their situation by giving them more happiness and health than you need to.

So we actually have a long way to go, either for domination or for conquest.

Only sort of. Yes, you're about 16% away from the land required for domination, but Montezuma has 19%. You won't get all of that, because the Egyptian and Persian borders will expand over some of it, but you also have some expansion to do on your home continent. If Montezuma's lands don't push you over the top (I think they will), you're going to be about 1 city away from it.

Montezuma is so technologically backward that you're going to wipe him out in no time. Once you take care of the initial counterattack, it's just going to be a question of how fast you can heal.

You're also short on population, but between Biology and the Aztec cities, that will take care of itself.

Yeah, I'm leaning towards conquest again--pax's post hit home. And as Eggman pointed out, I kinda messed up the whole finish early/finish big plan. So why not go the long way around and finish Prince level with a victory condition I haven't accomplished yet?

Having said all that in defense of domination, I like the idea of conquest. I also like knocking off each victory condition (though not usually score). In the same way that it's fun to try each leader, it's also a good challenge to try for varied victories.

In some ways, conquest can actually be easier than domination, because you don't care about defending the cities. You can go on a real scorched earth war, which means there's actually less to manage during the war.

Some things to keep in mind for conquest are:


Again, you're not as far away from domination as you think. If you plan to go for conquest, be careful about how many Aztec cities you decide to keep. You definitely want to keep some, because you need a staging area for your troops, but make sure there's a reason you're keeping each city.

Plan on keeping a few cities here and there as forward bases. Once you get flight, they're vital as airbases, not just for airdrops but also as a place to station your planes. Plan ahead to make sure those don't push you over the domination limit.

If you aren't planning on going for time, you can consider taking out Montezuma now and then just sitting back while you build up your modern army. A large force made up of destroyers, marines, bombers, fighters, and tanks will plow through Egypt and Persia at an average of about 1 to 1.5 cities per turn if you manage it right. I hate modern troop management, so I like to build up such an overwhelming force that I can end the war in as short a time as possible. I don't care what year it ends as long as the war itself doesn't last long.

I'm also with Doc here on the late war stuff. I really hate the unit management so my late wars usually take 10-20 turns in which some huge stacks of troops (yeah, more than one) finish off cities here and there with the help of a humongous airforce. I usually have a combination of fighters and bombers though, as the bombers' longer range can help me not waste time during my attacks. Cats or cannons are (maybe) used for bombing the city defenses, but I never upgrade to artillery. Air bombing is the way.:D

I just noticed there are a LOT of coastal cities of all civs. Maaan, this could be the amphibious war of the century! :) I purposely delay wars sometimes just to use my neat Marine+Carrier&fighter combo to attack several cities in one go. Never know what hit them.:eek:

Hey, first of all, great job so far. I always tell myself I'm going to save Great Artists too, but never end up doing it. Is there a 12-step program I can join? :crazyeye:

I'm at work (as usual) so I haven't looked over the info as much as I would like. But wouldn't it be bettter to take Cyrus out first? that's a fairly narrow strip of land he's on, which would be easier to defend. Once you had those cities, you could use them to land your army. And by that time, I'm assuming you'll have tanks and infantry, which would make killing Monty a lot easier.

My experience with Monty is that even though he might be behing in science, he often has a TON of units to throw at you. Might be nice to have a nice huge, defensible piece of land under your belt before you start beating the tar out of him.

I think you pretty much have the game won. it's just a question of where to start. :trophy: