EDIT
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/6022/chaoscollagext2.th.jpg (http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chaoscollagext2.jpg)http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/7672/khorneberserkersib2.th.jpg (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=khorneberserkersib2.jpg)
Chaos Warrior and Knight for Chaos Undivided. i sugest using them as Royal Guard(?!) and Heavy Knight with reduced numbers, casue of texture size. any comments welcome.
here is the download (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=2620&act=down) and here is the download for the tilean Venetor (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/83044/Venators.zip), wanna see both in the next version
Added the Khorne Berserkers for the pleasure of the Chaosgod file is in DB

ok, as i am burning to design some more units for chaos (!), i wanted to ask for an army list... what units do they need!? i am definitely going to design some more normal chaoswarriors (and the chaosknight), but i dont think archers or pikemen really fit, so what to replace them with!? and how do we want to implement the different chaos fractions?! i think it will be too complecatet to split it up into religions (thats for a scenario). so we could actually replace for example a militiaarcher with a nurgle chaoswarrior, the militiaswrdsman with a khorn berserker or what do you think!? will it be better to make those units special and not available at the same time, thus replacing a militiaarcher by a marauderarcher or a beastmenarcher`?!

i would like to see some more marauders, perhaps as the militia and the chaoswarriors as higher age units, (royalguard and replacements for crossbow and longbow and stuff like that)!!!

So, whats your opinion?

and @neener: we need some beastmen (at least heads ;) )

I got a relaxing day .. and because Chaos is one of my favorite fractions i'll give you my two cents ..

Somewhere in the timeline players should devote to Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle or Tzeentch. This will be done as following: When a certain tech is researched, a faction specific building will appear. When this building is built, the player will be devoted to the appropriate Chaos God. When no building is built, the player will be Undivided.

FYI: A specific faction can also built Undivided units!

// Ancient
Worker: Chaos (human) Worker
Ancient Warrior: Marauder
Ancient Spearman: Marauder Spearman
Ancient Archer: Marauder Archer
Ancient Axeman: Marauder Axeman
Ancient Swordman: Marauder Swordsman
Shaman: Marauder sorcerer
Horse-Archer: Marauder Horseman
Fast Troops: Warhounds
Catapult: ?
Chariot: Marauder Chariot
Monster I: Chaos Spawn
Scout: Maruder Scout
Galley: ?

// Age of Magic
Citizen: ?
Militia: Chaos Warrior
Light Knight: Marauder Horseman
Hedge-Wizard: Chaos Sorcerer
Bolt-Thrower: ?
War Chariot: Chaos Chariot
Monster II: Daemon Prince
Explorer: Chaos Furies
Caravel: ?

// Age of Discovery (factions are possible)
Royal Guard: Chaos warriors of (Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh)
Heavy Knight: (Undivided) Chaos Knights (Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh)
Wizard: Exalted Sorcerer (Undivided) and/or Sorcerer of (Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh)
Khorne: Flesh hounds, Spawn of Khorne, Bloodletters
Tzeentch: Screamers, Spawn of Tzeentch, Horrors of Tzeentch
Nurgle: Nurglings, Spawn of Nurgle, Plaguebearers
Slaanesh: Daemonettes of Slaanesh, Spawn of Slaanesh, Daemonettes on Slaanesh Steeds
Cannon:
Galleon: ?
Frigate: ?

// Mechanical Age
Khorne: Bloodhowler (improved Bloodletter), Exalted warrior on Juggernaut (is steed ..)
Tzeentch: Flamers of Tzeentch, Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch (is steed ..)
Nurgle: Plague Elemental (or something .. nurgle has no other option .. so improvise ;)), Plaguewarrior on steed (a rotten something?)
Slaanesh: Master of Deception on Slaaneshi Wurm (is steed ..) (http://uk.games-workshop.com/hordesofchaos/miniature-gallery/7/), Slaanesh elemental (no options for slaanesh either)
Ironclad: ?

Monster III:
Udivided: Two-headed Chaos Dragon
Khorne: Greater Daemon of Khorne (Bloodthirster)
Tzeentch: Greater Daemon of Tzeentch (Lord of Change)
Nurgle: Greater Daemon of Nurgle (Great Unclean One)
Slaanesh: Greater Daemon of Slaanesh (Keeper of Secrets)

Nurgle should have a chance to spread the Plague. Slaanesh should have a bigger 'deception bonus' (withdrawel chance?) and more speed (first strike?). Khorne should be stronger than average and tzeentch should be about many MANY magic thingies.

special characters:
- Crom the Conquerer (undivided)
- Archeon, Lord of the end times (all fractions)
- Galrauch, The First Chaos Dragon (tzeentch)
- Arbaal The Undefeated (khorne)
- Azazel, Prince of Damnation (slaanesh)
- Aekold Helbrass (undivided)
- Egrimm van Horstmann (undivided or khorne?)
- Dechala The Denied One (slaanesh) (awesome model!)
- Scyla Anfinngrim Chaos Spawn (beastmen like .. better in beastmen army)

Chaos players should be pointed towards destruction of everything. Surrounding nations could have chaos spawnings or mutilations (when culture is partially chaos on that tile).

oh oh .. time is up again ..

I think the different Cult-techs that we have should enable a wonder that allows the building of the units of ONE chaos god (we would then need a new tech for khorne also).

We would need a new buildingclass for these wonders (for example "chaos god") and set <iMaxPlayerInstances> to 1 for this in BuildingClassInfos - very simple solution and would be the best IMO.

I thought of Khorne just being the "basic" Chaos. The Cult techs I mainly planned for spells(Khorne doesn't provide spells to his followers and the Empire has to study many techs to gain diverse spells so Chaos should too imo) but we can use them as prereqs for specialunits as well naturally;)

ok, another civ development, i like these, its fun:D

I think that the easyest way to implement different chaos factions (note the spelling, its FACTIONS not FRACTIONS as in maths ;) ) is to make the 4 chaos gods, the chooseable leaders for the civ. so you can choose to be Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch or Nurgle. then each leader would have their own favorite civics, and behaviours etc. we could also make each one have different UUs.

what do you guys think?

Here i have copies information on each Chaos God from the Religeon thread:

THE CHAOS GODS

SLAANESH, Lord of Pleasure
Description: Slaanesh is the Lord of Pleasure and the Chaos God dedicated to all manners of perversions and sexual debauchery. He smiles upon hedonistic pleasure, the overthrow of all codes of decent behaviour and all forms of perverse pleasures of the flesh. He is pleased when his followers explore all their fantasies and joyous when it is particularly perverse. All sensations must be explored, including pain, agony, fear and terror.

Physically Slaanesh is portrayed as a bisexual humanoid, being male on the left side and female on the right, with an unerring and unnatural beauty not present in any of the other great Chaos Gods. Golden hair flows from his head like a cascading waterfall and from this mane of gold sprout two pairs of shiny horns, decorated in many fantastic and elaborate jewels and precious stones. In his right hand he holds the magical jade sceptre, which is his greatest and most prized treasure, and he wears a beautiful mail shirt fringed with velvet and this is usually encrusted with some of the most amazing jewels that a mortal could desire.

Symbol: Followers of Slaanesh wear somewhere about their person the symbol of Slaanesh, though not openly in the towns and cities of the Old World. However, they will openly wear elaborate jewellery bearing erotic motifs. Cultists will wear robes which are often opened to leave the right side of the chest uncovered, a requirement of many of the rituals involved in Slaanesh's worship. Pastel and electric shades are the chief colours with white used occasionally. Followers of Slaanesh often where these colours along with their art of clothes, which always tend to be of high quality. The number of Slaanesh is six and cult meetings are always this number or in multiples of it.

Worship: The worship of Slaanesh is especially popular among the nobility of the Old World, notably in the cities of Bretonnia, the Empire, and parts of Estalia and Tilea. How many people of the upper classes have alters to the Lord of Pleasure hidden somewhere in their homes? How many merchants conduct business before an orgy, where every vice and whim is explored? How many moral upstanding people have been murdered during these acts of debauchery? Whatever the case, the worship of the Lord of Pleasure is the most widespread of all the Chaos Gods and their are many cults. They are also popular with university students and there are many potential recruits there for any cultist or Chaos Champion.

General: The aims of the Slaaneshi cults are not like those of most other Chaos Gods. They do not especially have an interest in political power - although the sheer size of some cults, including many important politicians, merchants and nobles, makes this a matter of opinion - and certainly very little, if any, interest in martial power. That isn't what the worship of Slaanesh is about and it certainly is not a cult of warriors. Indeed, some followers of Slaanesh will even finance, or own, orphanages or mental institutions in order to prey upon the vulnerable members of society and abuse them as is their sadistic way.

The followers of Slaanesh maybe seen as a comical bunch of sexual deviants, but in truth they are a lot of sadistic, masochistic, hedonistic, self-indulging, perverted torturers. Few outsiders survive a cult meeting as they are typically tortured in unspeakable ways, with their last vestiges of life dedicated to the Lord of Pleasure before they are gleefully put to death.

KHORNE, The Blood God


Description: Khorne, known universally as the Blood God or The Harvester of Souls, is the most violent of all Chaos Gods for he epitomises anger, hate, violence and wanton destruction. To Khorne, whether they be friend or foe, all must be slain so that he may consume their souls and have more bones for his brass throne of blood. All blood that is split by his followers make Khorne more powerful. But Khorne is never satisfied, until all the bones of mortals lie beneath his brass throne.

Khorne is depicted as muscular bestial-faced humanoid, hundreds of feet tall, seated on a vast brass throne, which in turn rests on a mountain of blood-stained bones. He is clad in elaborate plate armour, adorned with skull motif patterns, and his great helm is winged with only a portion of his snarling face visible beneath.

Symbol: The symbol of Khorne is a skull, but the most popular symbol is an X-shaped rune with a bar across the bottom. His followers favour red, black and brass in their dress and armour, the hues of blood, death, and Khorne's own armour respectively. The number of Khorne is eight, or multiples of it, and this is reflected in cult meetings and the size of battlefield units.

Worship: The worship of Khorne is most popular with warriors. Most beastmen and Chaos Warriors follow the Blood God and these are some of the only Khornites to be found in the Old World because the god is not given over to subtlety and has no interest in politics. There are no temples to Khorne, the battlefield is where he is worshipped and where the most blood can be split. He is also popular among the goblinoid race, including Half-orcs, because his thirst for blood and wanton violence particularly appeals to their mentality.

Khorne looks in favour upon those who kill their friends and allies, and those who wreak the most havoc and destruction. All increases the Blood God's strength. He is displeased if one day goes by without one of his followers taking a life, as such something terrible might befall the indolent disciple.

General: Followers of Khorne are all warriors and there are few organised cults in the Old World dedicated to the Blood God's religion. He is worshipped only in the act of killing, and his followers often fight as individuals, ignoring bonds of alliance and common faith when it suits them to do so. They are some of the most zealous followers because they even see their own death as an offering to Khorne.

But there is another side to Khorne. He also epitomises the warrior's sense of honour and martial virtue. A Khornate Champion may not always be a frenzied berserker, he may just as easily be a proud warrior eager to prove himself to his god. In time, however, he will gradually see his comrades as pawns to use as he pleases as the last vestiges of his humanity begin to ebb away.

Unusually for a Chaos God, Khorne despises all forms of magic. He is a visceral god, the Chaos Power that embodies action, not thought. Slaughter in all its forms is the way of Khorne. Spellcasting is a process of the mind, not the sword's edge. The harvest of blood for the Blood God is of paramount importance, and those rituals and spells that would seek to quantify and control the forces of Chaos are an anathema to him. Khorne is a practical god of battle, not a god of effete intellectual pursuits. His 'magic', such as it is, reflects this character. Khorne followers use magical swords and Daemon Weapons to kill in Khorne's name. Khorne's unnatural marvels are his gifts to his followers; the use of such weapons is his followers' delight. Spellcasters that are found by Khorne's followers most of the time are slaughtered, but some are not and instead are taken to the Forges of Khorne where they become slaves for as long as they shall live, enchanting weapons and armour. Their eventual deaths temper the Khornate blades as they require blood for the quenching, and souls to stoke for the furnaces.


TZEENTCH, The Lord of Change


Description: Tzeentch is the greatest magician of the Chaos Powers and is the most enigmatic of the Chaos Gods. Magic is one of the most potent of all agents of change, and those who use it are amongst the most ambitious and the hungry for power. His sympathies lie directly with the Forces of Chaos as demonstrated by the distortion of natural law through the forces of mutation and magic. Tzeentch feeds upon the need and desire for change that is an essential part of human nature. All men dream of wealth, freedom and a better tomorrow. All these dreams create a powerful impetus for change, and the ambitions of nations create a force which can change history. Tzeentch is the embodiment of that force.

The skin of Tzeentch crawls with constantly changing faces, leering and mocking the onlooker. As he speaks, these faces sometimes repeat what he says with subtle but important differences, or provide commentary which throws doubt upon his words. This makes it very hard to interpret exactly what Tzeentch is saying. These lesser faces appear and disappear quite quickly, but the actual head of Tzeentch does not change. His puckered face sits low down and has no neck, so that it is hard to distinguish his head from his chest. His curving horns appear appear to spring from his shoulders rather than from his head. The firmament surrounding Tzeentch is heavy with brooding magic. It weaves like liquid smoke about his head, forming subtle and interwoven patterns. Forms of places and people appear in the smoke as Tzeentch's mind contemplates their fate.

Symbol: The colours of Tzeentch are pink, puce, and/or purple and are often used in subtle combinations, in everyday clothing. For more formal rituals and meetings, however, the robes are usually most garish and strident in both pattern and colour. The number of Tzeentch is nine and his cultists will gather in this number or multiples of it.

Worship: The Cult of Tzeentch is easily the most widespread in The Empire. He is particularly popular with mutants, but his cults are just as likely to be found in the towns and cities as they are in the forests. These groups are all committed to the subversion and overthrow of The Empire, and have an extensive network of informants and spies - some of whom occupy very high places indeed. The activities of this cult are shielded by its hostility towards the cult of Nurgle: who would suspect that those who are most zealous in the persecution of Nurgle's followers are actually Chaos cultists themselves? The size of any particular group of cultists varies from place to place, the largest ones being located in the great cities or deep in the forests. They meet wherever and whenever is expedient, being much more organised and circumspect than the followers of Slaanesh. Notable Tzeentchian cults are the Purple Hand, the Red Crown, the Withering Eye, and the Fire Grail, and the most powerful of these is the Purple Hand.

General: Tzeentch is not content to merely watch the drama of history as it unfolds. He has purposes of his own, although what they are it is impossible to say for sure. His intentions are complicated, his schemes highly sophisticated and incredibly long-term. Perhaps he has plans to overthrow the other Powers, or to extend his dominion over mortal realms. Whatever his ultimate purpose, he seeks to achieve it by manipulating the individual lives of men, thereby altering the course of history. By offering power and magic he can recruit influential people to his cause, and affect the lives many more at a single stroke. However, few of Tzeentch's plots are simple, and many may appear at first contradictory to others, or against Tzeentch's own interests. Only Tzeentch can see the threads of potential futures weaving forward in time like tangled balls of multicoloured wool.

The eternal enemy of Tzeentch is the other Chaos God called Nurgle. Because Tzeentch stands for change and the creation of new things, and life, this is the very opposite of what Nurgle stands for: decay and the defiance of despair and hopelessness.


NURGLE, God of Pestilence and Decay

NURGLE, God of Pestilence and Decay
Description: Nurgle is also the Lord of All because all things, no matter how solid and permanent they seem, are liable to physical corruption. Indeed, the very process of construction and creation foreshadow destruction and decay. The palace of today is tomorrow's ruin, the maiden of the morning is the crone of the night, and the hope of a moment is but the foundation stone of everlasting regret.

Nurgle is the Great Lord of Decay and the Master of Plague and Pestilence, his carcass is riddled with disease and infestation. He is a gigantic figure bloated with decay, disease and all imaginable kinds of physical corruption. His skin is greenish, necrose and leathery, its surface is covered with pockmarks, sores, and other signs of infestation. The inner organs, rank with decay, spill through the ruptured skin and hang like drapes about the girth. From these organs burst tiny creatures called Nurglings which chew and suck upon the nauseous juices within. Such foulness represents the truth of the universe, of decay and the end of all things. Yet in character Nurgle is neither deathlike nor morbid. Like his Daemons, Nurgle is motivated by all the trivial human enthusiasm which drive the living.

Symbol: Nurgle's colours are sickly greens, yellows and browns - usually worn in simple, geometric patterns. Worshippers often find it expedient to wear neither a symbol or nor the alternative badge of the silhouette of a fly, but most go hooded - either to disguise the deformities caused by Nurgle's Rot, or to inspire dread and doubt. The number of Nurgle is seven and his cultists will gather in this number or multiples of it.

Worship: Like Khorne, followers of the Plague God are relatively rare in The Empire, but a few do exist, practicing their filthy rites within the depths of the sewer systems of the major cities. Such groups rarely number more than fifty, and are largely isolated from groups in other cities. From time to time, the city or provincial authorities will mount an expedition to exterminate the depraved worshippers of Nurgle, but since such efforts must stop short of burning down their cities there are always a few who escape to replenish their numbers. Notable Nurgle cults include the Plague Chalice, The Foetid Fly, and The Maw.

General: The living know that they will die, and many know that they will live with disease or other torment, yet they drive this knowledge into a corner of their minds and keep it pinioned there with all manner of dreams and activity. Nurgle is the embodiment of that knowledge and of the unconscious response to it, of the hidden fear of disease and decay, and of the power of life which that fear generates. Nurgle is the hope born from the inevitability of death and decay.

Nurgle is the eternal enemy of Tzeentch, the Lord of Change. Nurgle and Tzeentch draw their energy from opposing beliefs. While the energy of Tzeentch comes from hope and changing fortune, that of Nurgle comes from defiance born of despair and hopelessness. The two Great Powers fight each other on the battle grounds of the Chaos Wastes and they oppose each other in more subtle ways, the complex politics and intrigues among mortal men.

Champions of Nurgle, like the Plaguebearers, find disease fascinating and when confronted with one they hastily scribble it down in a book or scrap of parchment (more to allocate a victim a disease than anything else.) Like the Plaguebearers and Great Unclean Ones they try to bring a little order to Chaos with a natural enthusiasm to organise and achieve.

The most obvious train of thought that strikes me is to ask how it works in the real Warhammer game? I never played Chaos, and none of my friends did either, so I don't know. Do you have to choose one God, or is it common for Chaos players to field multiple units from each God? If so, should we try to copy the official approach?

and @neener: we need some beastmen (at least heads )

No problem, that should be very easy to do.

so from thoses leader options, I guess Chaos undivided is not going to be implemented, no?

well, Im not too sure about the EXACT Chaos rules, so we may have to wait for DJ to say, but i think you can only choose one Chaos God. Buts as you say ELM, there is definately Chaos Undivided, we could use Archaon as their leader, seeing as he is blessed by all 4 Chaos Gods. he could have a small section of each other gods power, say Khorns strong units, Tzeenthes magic users, nurgles plague bearers etc etc. but as i say, we should wait for DJ to say something on that:)

I wouldn´t change the leaderoptions.

I´d just do it as I said before, make wonders available with the different chaos-cults techs (beasts could as well be added as Khorne should be). The player is only allowed to build one of these wonders and by deciding for a wonder he decides upon which faction of chaos he will continue the game as.

The other techs could still be researched (each will add some units that can be build because of the tech and not because of the wonder - mainly mages from the different factions and one other unit maybe also should be allowed by each tech).

That would allow for less leaders, make the player able to choose his faction in the game (a cool new and still unique option for chaos IMO). And it won´t make the other chaos-cults techs useless.

And allows for some nice variety in the chaos armies (because of the mages, core units available from the start.

The wonders could also be implemented as free buildings that a player gets when researching his first chaos-cults tech. Whichever he researches first that ones wonder he gets for free an so chooses his faction.

We currently have Chaos undivided with Archaon as Leader and I prefer to keep it this way. I don't want gods to be Leaders. I see no problem fielding units of more than one chaos god for chaos civ. They will just suffer animosity in this case.;)

Of the ideas suggested so far, I think I prefer Duke's, personally.

This is how I understand chaos to work in warhammer.

You can choose to be aligned with 1 chaos god OR to be chaos undivided. If you choose a particular god you get bonuses to certain units and other units are weaker. Also, you choose whether to be 'mortal' or 'deamon'. If you are mortal than all mortal units are are core and all deamon units special. The opposite is true if you are deamon.

How about using leaders instead of buildings to determine alingment to a god?

undivided, one chaos god, beasts plus mortal or deamon. Ok, that´s new to me. But if we do it that way with leaders we would need:

Khorne, deamon
Khorne, Mortal
Tzeentch, deamon
Tzeentch, mortal
Slaanesh, deamon
Slaanesh, mortal
Nurgle, deamon
Nurgle, mortal
Undivided, deamon
Undivided, mortal
Beasts of chaos (I don´t think there is deamon or martal for them)

That would make 11 Leaders in total, if we stick with the deamon/mortal thing - quite a long list

6 Leaders if we only choose to have the different gods, undivided and beasts.

I still like my idea with the wonders better, each tech could then allow for two wonders - one for the deamon version and one for the mortal version of the different chaos factions (except for beasts, which would only get one)

Well i think Duke does have a point here, we dont want there to be too many leaders, but i am still not sure about the wonders idea, i would need to actually try both ideas out in game before i could decide.

If we go with the Chaos gods, and Archaon, that gives us five leaders to choose from.this will make the varying alot simpler for the casual / new players, however its nothing new and dosnt add any oomf to the chaos civ.

if we go with the Wonders to determing which Chaos god the civ follows, it would make playing chaos a bit more confusing, and might take a while to get used to and to understand, especially for new players. however this would definately add something new and original to the mod, and would probably make more experienced players want to try it out.

i think maybe the Wonders is a better choice, but we should try to make it a simple as posible.

(i know, i just arguewd with myself, i seem to be doing that alot lately :lol: )

How about using civics instead of wonders? It should be possible to get a civic category which exist for the chaos player only.

well, i would go with wonders (in form of temples) too, cause it is a bit more flexible and seems to fit in well.

added picture and link to db

Hello :)

The choice of leader of the army determines the rest of the army. An undivided leader can only have undivided units. A leader of a certain faction can only have units of that faction and undivided units. Olleus is right about the mortal/daemon rule to determine which troops are rare, special and core.

IMO the latter shouldn't be implemented in the game. I say to be most realistic: there are more men than Daemons and therefor men are core and daemons special. That way the Basic Chaos army will be Chaos undivided (regular marauders, chaos warriors/knights, spawn etcetera).

Sorry Lama but i think it's better to choose faction (thanks for that .. ;)) ingame than by leader. I think it should be aligned with the research of particular techs. For example: when the Chaos player researches magic (common tech!), it can devote to Tzeentch by building a shrine (or temple or altar or whatever). Or by researching it (I prefer the latter) That way it can build Tzeentch units and get Tzeentch improvements. For the other factions:

- Khorne; when researching something to do with fighting .. like military training?
- Slaanesh; something to do with deception, art, beauty ..
- Nurgle; something to do with fighting disease (well .. the don't fight it but embrace it ..)

All should be somewhere at the same spot on the tech tree. So when I researched Magic I can research Tzeentch next. That way I become a follower of Tzeentch fot the rest of the game ..

That's my idea about Chaos.

and .. what's the nice thing about Archaon? It's the only leader that can have all specific units. He is undivided and all factions in one. IMO it should be nice to make a building devoted to him, let's say Archaon's Lair. The city that builds it can build all chaos units available! .. only a small suggestion ;) ..

Extra: fluffwise the Chaos Gods don't like each other .. only once in a dwarven lifetime they come together to fight the world instead of each other. That is the reason why there should be different factions in the first place ..

hope this can be of any help ..

Ok, now im converted, i think we do exactly what DJ said, but instead of only researching a tzeentch tech (for example) after researching Magic, just make a new wonder avaliable.

Eg:
Research 'Magic' -> unlock Tzeentch wonder called 'Hall of Change' (or something)

Research (some tech to do with Health, disease)-> unlock Nurgle wonder called 'Hall of Plague' (or something)

Research 'Military training' -> unlock Khorne wonder called 'Hall of Blood' (or something)

Research (some tech to do with deception, art, beauty ) -> unlock Slaanesh wonder called 'Hall of Lust' (or something)

So i think a combination of Duke and DJ's ideas would be good, and then just keeping Archaon as the leader.

Allways nice to hear you agree :mischief:

updated my post above btw ..

How is the idea of Chaos mutations to champions (or units with high XP) hoping to be implemented, if at all?

hmmmm. It should definatively be invloved but I don't know how. The best way would probably to give it a random 'mutation' promotion on certain triggers, but I can't think what they should be. We need more brainstorm here.

added followers of Khorne to the first post, please dont forget to add them in any way to the next patch ;)

and mutations could be included as an event giving a random normal promotion (+ movement, + strenght) etc...

- When on Chaos territory (or partially Chaos tiles) friendly units and enemy units have a chance on mutation. For Chaos this is good, so they get a promotion (mutation I,II,III etc). For enemy units this is bad. They have a chance to become a Chaos Spawn that's unfriendly to all units (Chaos and others). Chaos units (the human ones that is) also should have a small chance on becoming a Spawn. That's the risk of worshipping Chaos ..
- Warpstone should increase the mutation chance. Bad for others, good for Chaos ..
- If we use pollution, this should give a mutation chance too. Bad for others, good for Chaos ..

This way mutation is coincedence, but there should be a normal way to get the promotion too; The Gods grant the best warriors with mutations! So, it can be a victory promotion too.

I don't think it's realistic to mutate champions (visibly), but if it's possible that would be awesome ..

Oh, i think i should also point out that Khorne armies do NOT have ANY magic units. i just had a table top battle with my brother, and found that he could not use any magic as he had no sorcerers. my magic was awsome however:D as woodelves rock:D.

anywho, i think Khorne should not get ANY magic units, (other than MAYBE an undivided shaman of sorts)

I would prefer handling chaos without the need to to code choosing of factions(maybe much later in the future) on short term lets handle the chaos civ like this:
every city can build undivided units
the player can build a temple of a chaos god and afterwards the city can only produce the units of that god and undivided. if the player builds a temple of another chaosgod in that city it obsoletes the previous temple.
AND chaos gets a wonder that enables one city to build any unit like DJ mentioned.
However this will still be sort of dangerous since chaostroops of different factions suffer animosity

@DJ
I agree mostly with your suggestions

Chaos won't fit into the stanard schema. First thing I do now is remove the militias from their production list and add seZ new units along with Fleshhounds and Demonprinces. Need some ideas what their stats should be like.
I know this will be unbalanced for now but I will leave the gaps so we can find out what exactly chaos also will need.

Chaoswarriors will replace militiaswordsmen
the berserks I put in temporarily as Royal Guard
Iwill keep the monsters as they are but additionnally give Fleshhounds in age of magic and Demonprinces in Age of Discovery

i agree with everything. but im unsure about what you mean when you say:
"every city can build undivided units
the player can build a temple of a chaos god and afterwards the city can only produce the units of that god and undivided. if the player builds a temple of another chaosgod in that city it obsoletes the previous temple."

does that mean the civ can only build that gods units in all cities (like with Dukes idea) or the civ has potential to build ALL chaos units, (ie have differecnt cities building different god's units. if its the second one wont that be harder to do? also, it will make Chaos Far too powerful IMO.

it would be easyer to just do the wonder/tech thing as Duke and DJ said first off then having a half-step in between, less work for everyone.;)

just my 2 cents

It does mean the civ can build all units. If anything is too powerful really can't be judged until it's ALL in the game imo.
Chaos gets some disadvantages too after all. They lack many coreunit i.e. and the Daemon unitclasses I just added have restrictions:
Lesser daemon 25 (could be altered after playtesting)
Daemon restricted to 10 units(could be altered after playtesting)
Greater Daemon - worldunit
So indeed Chaos gets powerful units but can't build as many of them as it likes and therfore still could have a hard times actually winning wars because they don't have strong coreunits specialized in citydefense just those tier 1 archers currently. If we include units for defense in higher tiers later I'd say lets just make em considerable weaker to balance the strong attack force of chaos.

And don't forget animosity- chaos will NOT get discipline!!!

-the player can produce all units but the first time a Bloodthirster destroys all of his nurglings he might decide against a mix.;)

Just to say one thing, I really don't like the idea of Chaos having animosity. I understand why you're putting it in, but I don't think it fits well. The Chaos Gods hate each other but their troops don't, as far as I know, squabble amongst themselves when they're at war. I think there's a reason that Chaos didn't have animosity in the Warhammer game, you know? To me, animosity is a fairly uniquely Orcish thing, because of their staggering lack of discipline. Even in the middle of an intense battle, they'll stop to fight amongst themselves or to teach those Goblins a lesson. It just seems really weird to me for Chaos to be doing that. They're supposed to be evil, bloodthirsty demons hellbent on destruction, and they're going to be bickering like Goblins? Only worse, because they won't even get the Discipline promotion?

I agree, no animosity for chaos. However, for every different chaos god that is in your civ, you should get -1 happiness. That way, if you want to have all four different temples in different cities then every city will get -3 happiness. That should encourage players to concentrate on one god.

Animosity is not for all Chaostroops just for the Daemons and they HAVE animosity in WH tabletop! At least the old rules.

But daemon animosity is different indeed. In WH on a roll of 1-2
Daemons start fighting each other until the player rolls 5-6 in a subsequent turn dice check- they are moved immediatly to fight if within range of 12 inch no matter the movement, on 3-4 they sqabble(like orcs) on 5-6 nothing- all is normal
But since the effects aren't that much different I think we can just use the script ELM made for the greenskins.

I agree, no animosity for chaos. However, for every different chaos god that is in your civ, you should get -1 happiness. That way, if you want to have all four different temples in different cities then every city will get -3 happiness. That should encourage players to concentrate on one god.
Players maybe but what about the AI?

The Ai can be taught. All you have to do is reduce the chance of building a certain temple is another type of temple is already present in the civ.
In the new rules (or at least the ones I played with a couple of years ago) deamons have no aminosity. They behave more like undead (dying instead of breaking and running) than goblins.

Hm, I think I still will stick to daemonanimosity cause it just fits perfectly for Daemons. Daemonunits are stronger than mundanes so they really need something bad to get a balance. Animosity which can't be disciplined is that kinda stuff.
How exactly can we teach the AI concerning temples? If we can teach the AI nothing speaks against happiness modifiers you mentioned. And no need for hardcoding the temples then.

The other disadvantage for Chaos is they are Melee heavy so the Support fire bonus won't be there for them.

Wicked mutations usually end up being a gift for champions of chaos, so I was thinking the higher mutation promotions should only occur on units of a certian level.

The other disadvantage for Chaos is they are Melee heavy so the Support fire bonus won't be there for them.

Wicked mutations usually end up being a gift for champions of chaos, so I was thinking the higher mutation promotions should only occur on units of a certian level.
Yep, I agree to the latter. I just changed the regenration promotion so it won't be available to units like pegasi. I think a script for a "chaosgift" promotion would be interesting. It could give a random advantage like regeneration, extra firststrike etc. that means in more detail:
a script that allows for a list of promotions we can define one of which will be granted.

Also, what about a warbanding period in the early game to make Chaos a different flavour? Something like, random chance/forced chance/optional chance (with an improvement) of friendly fight between units, once you reach a certian unit:city ratio, until a tech is founded which organises units. This will give you less overall units, but stronger ones with the experienced gained. And gives you something to concentrate on early.

The idea is not too sound, but what I'm getting at is implementing some "survival of the fittest" in either the early rounds or low level troops. I like the idea of chaos with a few expensive powerful units (upgrades or champions of early weak units), and loads of weaker infighting units

Also, what about a warbanding period in the early game to make Chaos a different flavour? Something like, random chance/forced chance/optional chance (with an improvement) of friendly fight between units, once you reach a certian unit:city ratio, until a tech is founded which organises units. This will give you less overall units, but stronger ones with the experienced gained. And gives you something to concentrate on early.

The idea is not too sound, but what I'm getting at is implementing some "survival of the fittest" in either the early rounds or low level troops. I like the idea of chaos with a few expensive powerful units (upgrades or champions of early weak units), and loads of weaker infighting units
Like the idea. But I think it wouldn't be chaos specific but for all. The ancient era is barbarian state of civilization after all.:)

Couldn't we just let barbarians spawn inside culture borders to represent this, and have a small chance of these units converting to your civ if you beat them?

Couldn't we just let barbarians spawn inside culture borders to represent this, and have a small chance of these units converting to your civ if you beat them?

Fair enough, the only reason I suggested friendly fighting is that it will prevent mass pillaging of your lands. If we go for the Barbs, i think it would be better to spawn barb's that cannot pillage. Or else the early game would just get too frustrating

I agree with you there.

In the first age, barbarians should spawn in your lands that cannot pillage.

We should discuss anything concerning Barbs in the new thread I opened for them. I like the idea above guys. But lets keep this thread for chaos only;)

well i also disagree with the Deamon animosity. but purely because i dont see deamons arguing like gobbos (as was said before) so if you can make it an original concept for Chaos only (ie not just a remake of animosity) then i think i might agree. but for now i think Animosity should stay purely for greenskins. we dont want to overdo something cool.

one other thing: i dont personally see Chaos as a small tough civ. i see them as endless hordes of small deamons lead by very few Hugely powerful deamons. so i think the limit on the numbers is odd, but if it works i dont mind. i would prefer (but i really dont mind) it if Chaos had a very very small number of Uber tough units and the rest uber weak nd uber cheap, so they can build massive hordes (like gobbos) but thats probably just me:D

thats my 2 cents;)

Daemons don't sqabble like Greenskins but they fight each other, "shout and scream at each other in a threatining manner" or ignore each other.(WH-Rulebook 1992, page 87)
That means we can use the same gamemechanics-it shouldn't be too hard to just have another textdisplay and sounds for that later;)

yeh, well i really dont mind, so if your so hell-bent on it go for it. (no pun intended ;) )

just keep in mind though, i dont think we should mix rules from the past and present. even thogh that rule is from the WH rule book from '19-diggity-2' dosnt mean we should use it, perhaps the tabletop WH teams scrapped it because it was bad / unbalancing, irritating etc.

but as i say, go ahead and do it if you must, it dosnt bother me :D

Heh, whatever there is to say about ancient rulebooks. It's currently the only reference I got.:p But I don't think we should include Daemonanimosity because it's in those old rules but because it perfectly reflects the chaotic nature of those beings. Monsters should also get some effects reflecting their undisciplined nature(stupidity etc.). I think Daemons and Monsters in order to get balanced(since they are considerably stronger than ordinary troops-or should be) should get a sort of independence from the players will so that he will consider better building coreunits instead. The more fluff of this kind we have the less hardcode numberrestrictions we need after all.

does that mean you want some more fluff on WH monsters and deamons?

I was thinking though, instead of animosity, we could just give deamons a 'Beseark' (spelling?) promotion which gives them a chance going barb for one turn. say 5-10%chance. or we could make each deamon pass a leadership test each turn, or on a random number of turns to make stuff interesting, and if the test is failed, the unit acts like a barbarian for that turn, but returns tothe players control in the next turn. another way to do it, would be if there is another deamon of a different god in its line of sight, it has a % chance of going barb.
(sorry, im thinking out loud;) )
so that could be similar to the Animosity, but would not remove the unique flavour from the greenskins, and at the same time would make Chaos more unique. (sure its a negative uniqueness, but a uniqueness none the less. plu i think it fits the Chaos civ)

just another of my 2 cents;)

I'd say no. The reason why I want to stick to the animositymechanics is also that we can direct the Daemons Wrath to the unit that causes that(Daemon of another God). A barb Daemon could capture a city and destroy it btw-a little cruel imo.

ah... yes... i hadnt thought of that :blush:

well, the only thing i can say, is go the 'animosity' but change the name and effect's names to make it suit the flavour of the civ:)

ah... yes... i hadnt thought of that :blush:

well, the only thing i can say, is go the 'animosity' but change the name and effect's names to make it suit the flavour of the civ:)

Well, since most of the mechanics are there, if animosity works well, just add this to the wish list - just expand animosity to also include a bDaemonAnimosity flag, which triggers different results but using the same engine.

Well, since most of the mechanics are there, if animosity works well, just add this to the wish list - just expand animosity to also include a bDaemonAnimosity flag, which triggers different results but using the same engine.
Yep that's what I had in mind. Count it in as added to the wishlist:)

How about giving deamons a (very low, about 2%) chance of disapearing every turn? They are after all nonreal units who can walk in and out of this world and sometimes get lost inbetween the two.

How about giving deamons a (very low, about 2%) chance of disapearing every turn? They are after all nonreal units who can walk in and out of this world and sometimes get lost inbetween the two.
Would be a nice addition:)

We seem to be coming up with several good coding ideas, but do we need a central "wish list" thread, that is only to have confirmed items listed (ie not for general comments) which we want to start on before/after the warlords upgrade. Something to list what's being done by whom and what's still listed as unassigned

We seem to be coming up with several good coding ideas, but do we need a central "wish list" thread, that is only to have confirmed items listed (ie not for general comments) which we want to start on before/after the warlords upgrade. Something to list what's being done by whom and what's still listed as unassigned
I think it would be a good idea if all you programmers have an own thread were you can list your work in progress, what kind of requests your open to etc. and we can make requests and give comments. Also you should start a thread to discuss codingproblems(programmers only). In general please feel free to start any thread you feel could be useful. I prefer having many threads to few but long ones.

We can use the C++/python thread. Unfortunately I have forgotten to update it for a while now. Ploe, could you pm me a list of everything that we have decided we need?

In the current rules Daemons don't fight with each other. Games Workshop allways had a problem with daemons. People liked them because of the looks and the fluff, but people didn't play them because of the crappy rules for them. In the latest WH edition (6th) they indeed have a similar rule as the Undead: they are unbreakable (can't flee from combat) but for every combat point lost, they lose a figure.

Im on with PL about the size of Chaos. Chaos is the biggest thing in the warhammer world. It is for a good reason that once in a lifetime (of an elf) the attack the WHOLE civilized world. Giant Daemons (the next thing to a god) command massive hordes of Daemons, that follow their orders blindly. Smaller Daemons don't have opinions and therefore aren't supposed to flee or squabble (that was a truly sucky rule imo). Even more massive hordes of barbaric (read human) tribes follow their leaders that are instructed by the gods as well.

Bigger Daemons DO have an own opinion but it's watered down. They can make own decisions but are influenced by the Gods by illusions or blackmail. In other words: Daemons will NEVER squabble. Fluffwise the human choas tribes fight under each other all the time, but i don't think this should return ingame.

I like the dissappearing idea. Maybe it's an idea to give it a very small chance, but increase the chance when the daemon is farer away from the land owned by chaos. This to listen to the rule that daemons need a portal to support them ..

another 2 cents from me ..

We can use the C++/python thread. Unfortunately I have forgotten to update it for a while now. Ploe, could you pm me a list of everything that we have decided we need?
I'd really prefer to have a new thread for this the current python thread is far too long. Also that list would be a big job now.
I took the first handicap to warlords and reached the mainmenu without xml errors. however the game crashes about the time the progressscreen should show up. unfortunatly Duke didn't comment many changes he made so I could use some help debugging this. I will post it shortly.
I will open a python/SDK request thread later. I think that would make things a little less easy to miss and we can set up a to do list there.

@DJ
just the dissappearing alone won't balance daemons. And it's not quite that someone needs to study philosophics in order to be able to sqabble. I don't see why nurglings shouldn't squabble btw but we can decide individually which daemons are affected by animosity so I think we can find a compromise between old and new fluff here no worries.

I think, if we have 3 effects for the 'deamon animosity' (we need a new name for this in-game to make it destiguishable from greenskins) they could be something like:
1. a 2% dissapearing chance inside the cultural boarders each turn, a 4% dissapearing chance inside nutural territory each turn, an 8% dissapearing chance inside enemy cultural boarders each turn, and then another 2% dissapearing chance if attacking a city with a standing stone (because standing stones drain magic.)

2. Deamons have a chance of, sort of 'exploding' in the presence of powerful spell casters. (this is just a reversed idea like 'miscast' in the magic rules. so deamons have a chance of exploding if they can see a spell caster, and spell casters have the same chance of exploding if they can see a deamon. (this applied to chaos spell casters too except tzeentch spell casters.) when they 'explode' the can cause collateral damage to surrounding units.

3. chaos humans (only) suffer from a watered down animosity, with no 'disciplined' ability to counteract it.

Now, im not saying that all of these have to be used together, and not exactly like thins, because i thin the 2nd one is quite nasty :evil: so this is only idea food;)

Whatever we choose to implement, I think we should make sure that it's still fun. A lot of games have suffered in the past because they're implemented things that just aren't fun, and serve only to hinder the player.

I'm all in favour of adding fluff elements to the races, but when you're talking about a 5-10% per turn chance of your units just plain disappearing, I don't see how that's fun for the player. Do we really expect the people playing Chaos to enjoy having their unit disappear the very first turn after they made it just because it fits the lore of Demons?

good point, i had forgotten about that :blush:

so now i guess were back to square one.

Yep Daemons aren't Popcorn. The dissappearing if implemented should be an effect of a wonder no less(standing stones) if within cultural borders of that civ.
Else I still stick to a slightly altered animosity mechanic. Won't spoil them but makes em unreliable enough to motivate building of coreunits incertain circumstances. Civ isn't WH tabletop, don't forget that. We can't and we shouldn't make an exact copy of WH rules(unitstats debate showed that). Priority is allways civ not the tabletop.

Else I still stick to a slightly altered animosity mechanic. Won't spoil them but makes em unreliable enough to motivate building of coreunits incertain circumstances.

Well, I was also talking about the animosity thing, too. Again, I don't really see how that's fun for the player. To an extent I think it's fine for a player who picks the greenskins, because he knows exactly what he's getting himself in for, but if I picked Chaos I'd just find animosity frustrating, I think.

Well, I was also talking about the animosity thing, too. Again, I don't really see how that's fun for the player. To an extent I think it's fine for a player who picks the greenskins, because he knows exactly what he's getting himself in for, but if I picked Chaos I'd just find animosity frustrating, I think.
Sigh, well wouldn't he expect "chaos"?!

Calm down. If you want animosity that badly then go for it. I'm just giving my opinion.

I give some final reasons:
1.)Daemons are dangerous even and especially sometimes for those who called them
2.)Daemons of different chaos gods strongly despise each other
3.)Chaosgods like to see their minions fighting each other, they don't care if one or two battles may get lost because of that, what counts for them is the fun of bloodshed
4.)Daemons need to be balanced! They are very strong and taking them temporarily out of the players control will make em less reliable for tactic shemes which indeed should be the way.
5.)Animosity is nothing greenskinexclusive. Just the way they handle it is.
It's no problem giving Daemons other sounds and textmessages to give them a different flavor for a similar action.(less funny more brutish-exception nurglings maybe)

So finally if you still object please give an alternative. Making Daemons more like Undead just not to have Animosity seems no solution for me.
I'm not against opinions I just defend mine btw;)

How about this.
If two deamons of different gods are on the same tile, or next to each other, they both get hurt(10-20%?). Also, every turn a deamon is in enemy territory, it looses a little health (2-5%?) as it is far away from its god.

How about this.
If two deamons of different gods are on the same tile, or next to each other, they both get hurt(10-20%?). Also, every turn a deamon is in enemy territory, it looses a little health (2-5%?) as it is far away from its god.
Sound already more like a compromise to me:)
Maybe also a small chance they will attack each other and for me it's a deal!

I prefer Olleus' plan, simply because it's not random. The player can plan for those deficiencies and use tactics to avoid them. There's no way you can strategise against a 5% chance your unit will explode every turn.

As for alternatives, if it was up to me I think I'd make Chaos work in a similar way to the Barbarians in the Barbarians mod in Warlords. The one where you have a mobile camp and you can purchase units with gold, and you gain gold from pillaging and razing. The mobile camp thing probably suits Chaos better than building cities, but to be honest I don't know how well it would work so I'm not too serious about that part. However, you could give Chaos the same sort of mechanics of pillaging, and give them relatively high upkeep too. That way they're forced to keep attacking and pillaging other civilizations to keep afloat. Instead of calling it gold, though, you could call it Chaotic Favour or something. The idea being that the more pillaging and destroying you do, the more Favour you get from your Chaos God, the more units you can buy, the more pillaging and destroying you can do. That presents a challenge to the player to offset the powerful nature of Chaos, and also gives Chaos its own unique flavour instead of making them Orcs with a different texture.

I don't know if it's possible in vanilla, or if we'd have to wait until we switch over to Warlords, but it's what I'd probably try and do.

The last idea is interesting but I think would still be quite complicated to get on. But I like it sort of. However Chaos arent Mongol Hordes and I would hate playing them without Khorinaun(just got used to that city in civ3). Also I would really miss all those horrificbuildings they could have. We maybe could use Kaels code from FFH that makes the civ which name I forgot just use 3 strong cities and build small settlement everywhere to get necessary resources. Chaos could go without commercial improvements and would need to pillage in order to hold it's troops.
Settlements could produce Marauders and Beastmen only plus Herdstone(+1culture and gateways later to teleport their strong units from their capital-just like airports). Only the three core cities could build Chaosknights and Warriors. Daemons would have to be summoned by Scorcerers not produced. They stay until the Scorcerer casts another spell or gets killed or distraced otherwise. The summoning of a greater Daemon would require to sacrifice a scorcerer(highest tier). In this case the Demon stays until it's killed or banned.

And:
Daemons lose hitpoints every turn in enemy territory (2-5%), Wards could increase the damage by 5% and standing stones would give another bonus of 10%.
If Daemons of different gods encounter each other this also adds to the damge and gets a small chance they attack each other (say 8%). That's random but you could just have them stay apart from each other. Will only make it difficult to defend cities hording Daemons.

Now that's more like it! :)

Don't make Deamons attack each other. There could be some technical problems if you try to attack someone on your own tile, and it doesn't fit in with chaos. Chaos troops are probably the most disiplined of all the evil civs (apart from maybe darkelves) and the idea of them squabling just seems wrong.

Don't make Deamons attack each other. There could be some technical problems if you try to attack someone on your own tile, and it doesn't fit in with chaos. Chaos troops are probably the most disiplined of all the evil civs (apart from maybe darkelves) and the idea of them squabling just seems wrong.
The needed mechanic for that is already in the animosity code and seem to work ok also chaos disciplined? ok maybe the scorcers and Chaosknights but certainly not nurglings and Beastmen.:confused:
I know they got high Leadership but they also have frenzy and similar stuff. I'd say disciplined isn't just the right word, they are simply fearless and crazy for blood imo.

Hell! DJ please send me the new rulebook.pdf it's really difficult to get some agreement if two sides are relying on different sources:(

Edit:
Some possible Leaders PL mentioned:

Archaon, end of times.
who gets a 'United Chaos' trait or something which alows his to get some of each kind of deamon?

Haargroth the Blooded One, a mighty Champion of Khorne, began his life as a simple farmer boy and has risen to preeminence in the eyes of the Blood God.
gets a 'Chosen of Khorne' trait alowing his to create Khorne units

Feytor the Tainted, Champion of Nurgle, whose entire village was struck down with plague, alone was spared and embraced by his most pestilent savior.
gets a 'Chosen of Nurgle' trait alowing his to create Nurgle units

Styrkaar of the Sortsvinaer, blessed of the Dark Prince Slaanesh, is a Norse king whose people fall at his feet in adoration and worship.
gets a 'Chosen of Slaanesh' trait alowing his to create Slaanesh units

Melekh the Changer with his mutant-child Cyspeth, touched of great Tzeentch, cut down an Aesling shaman to lead his people alongside Archaon.
gets a 'Chosen of Tzeentch' trait alowing his to create Tzeentch units

Personally, I've always seen Chaos as the true Survival of the Fittest races, as each unit wants to achieve that small percentage chance of being blessed by the Chaos gods as a champion of some sort.

I think the idea of any animoisty (or any other negative aspect), needs to be controllable by the player. i.e. the triggers can be avoided, or as mentioned, players will get frustrated. It needs to be - It happened but I can avoid it if I am willing to play a diffent tactic. I don't like the standard % and disappear, with only triggers on the %chance. That and I think we have to give a benefit for every negative, so the civs are still attractive. This might not always tie up with the Warhammer rules, but we still want a "fun" game in the end.

As for attacking the same square. I played around with this and it's not a problem as long you make sure the unit is not busy. The fight scenes interesting as 1 unit stands just behind the other and hits them in the back of the head :)

I'm quite happy doing loads of different code types for different races, as I personly want a different feel and flavour for each race. So while the animosity code could be used, I imagine the ability for different effects for different civs put into the code as it progresses.

Also as a thought, instead of -% in HP's from Attrition (which could be countered with healing promotions from other medic units), you could also go for a small decrease in %str. Something that takes X number of turns in a friendly territory to reset back to normal. Sort of a Warweariness effect (since I imagine Chaos won't really have WW in the end design).

This is more like it:D i love all ideas so far.

but (there is always a 'but';) ) will the incresed upkeep of units mean the armies will be smaller? because i want massive hordes of deamons! perhaps make some of the essential buildings for chaos have a negative gold modifyer?