I'd like to start a succession game, my first one ever. Hope the variant idea draws some interest!

The variant: The game must be won not by us, but by the first civilization we meet (as defined by their appearance in the Shift-D list). If it's possible for two or more civilizations to enter the list at the same time, then I say we get to choose our puppet in the case of such a tie.

Domination and Conquest victories disallowed (too easy to just go ahead play it like a normal game, gifting our puppet all our cities at the end).

UN victory allowed, but no building the UN allowed, otherwise once again it seems too similar to a normal game (build UN, gift cities, hold vote).

The level: Monarch to Demigod, my preference is Emperor.
The version: C3C 1.22; I much prefer it to Vanilla
The map size: Standard preferred, but open to ideas
The geography and climate: Mild preference for all middle settings, but open to suggestions

Hope somebody wants to give this a go!

Lo5

I'd really like to try this one, it would also be the first succession game for me.

The variant sounds interesting but quite difficult, so I would prefer Monarch or Emperor.

I think there are some things to talk about before starting:

-Are we allowed to give our puppet technologies, gold, cities, workers or whatever as gifts?

-if me meet two civs at the same time (=the same turn), do we have to choose the puppet as soon as we meet them or can we wait to see which one will become stronger?


Anyways, I'm on a festival from tomorrow to monday, so I can't post here.

I'd really like to try this one, it would also be the first succession game for me.

The variant sounds interesting but quite difficult, so I would prefer Monarch or Emperor.

I would also prefer Emperor max (emperor is what I normally play); I just wanted not to drive away people who prefer a higher difficulty, as long as it's not too far "from me."

I'm a little worried that if we played Monarch, I'd forget we were doing so and count on the second citizen being unhappy. :lol: More generally, it would just feel "weird" to me after playing Emperor for so long. Would Emperor be OK with you?

I think there are some things to talk about before starting:

I agree!

-Are we allowed to give our puppet technologies, gold, cities, workers or whatever as gifts?

Not just "allowed," but rather "very, very strongly encouraged!" :lol:

However, cities are a special case. Forbidding the gifting and trading of cities (I think cities can only be traded for peace, but even that would be forbidden) would make it reasonable to *not* remove the Conquest and Domination victories after all, which is cool! But it would make for a very different game. Perhaps a much more difficult one.

What's your opinion on that -- cith-gifting allowed and no domination/conquest/self-built UN, or city-gifting forbidden and no holds barred?

Note that there are ways around no-gifting, which I guess are reasonable to allow -- going to war with our puppet and letting it take our cities has a similar effect, as does going into an allied war with a third party and setting things in each city assault so that the city falls to the puppet, not us. But the first one sounds risky and the second one is tricky, so I think maybe these should be allowed even if we decide to ban city gifts.

-if me meet two civs at the same time (=the same turn), do we have to choose the puppet as soon as we meet them or can we wait to see which one will become stronger?

As soon as we meet them. No pussyfooting here.

Anyways, I'm on a festival from tomorrow to monday, so I can't post here.

Have fun! Things should take a little while to get rolling, so I don't think the delay until your return will be a problem.

Lo5

I'm a little worried that if we played Monarch, I'd forget we were doing so and count on the second citizen being unhappy. More generally, it would just feel "weird" to me after playing Emperor for so long. Would Emperor be OK with you?

Emperor would be also fine with me, although I just played a few matches and won none of them.

Not just "allowed," but rather "very, very strongly encouraged!"

I thought about what I said afterwards and came to the same result ;)


What's your opinion on that -- cith-gifting allowed and no domination/conquest/self-built UN, or city-gifting forbidden and no holds barred?


I think it's better to generally forbid city-gifting but allow all kinds of victories, letting us a bit more tactical range. The declaring war to puppet and letting them take our cities may not be the same because we probably had war weariness.

We tried this once, I think it was eldar05, but the game died out of lack of interest - a pity because it was fun and we had a decent shot at it, IMHO. The fact the SGOTM failed on SS condition might have been influenced (you know you like understatements ;)) by the 1CC - heck, 1 tile challenge India was facing. I believe this is very doable for all VC's but 20K or domination (unless on pangea for dom).

Misfortunately I haven't the slightest idea of just how much I'll be busy in the next months so I can't sign up now, but might tag along eventually if there are quarters for refugee idiots on your boat.

They had plenty of cities for hundreds of turns; I think the constant war with them was the primary problem. I guess they don't want to build spaceship parts while at war.

These games seem interesting; I'll join. Forbidding city gifts sounds good. Nothing to add regarding anything else.

Great to see interest is building!

I noticed that this thread name breaks the standard for succession-game thread names -- that it should start with a preferred abbreviation to be used as the reference name of the succession game, like LoFive1 or Puppet. (I like Puppet better.) Is that fact worth starting a new thread over? Worth contacting a mod over?

Looks like there's a consensus for all victories open, no city gifting, and the more I think about that approach the more I like it, so let's go with that.

Anyone object to standard size, all standard setting, Restless barbarians? If not, I'll go with that.

As for the difficulty, much though it worries with me, my preference is for Emperor, so we'll use it unless we're short on players and there's a potential player who's really bothered by it.

How 'bout civs? How 'bout random rival civs, and the English for us? The Royal Family of our hardly-huge nation pulling the strings of world events from behind the scenes... that'll be nice from a roleplaying perspective, though there is the small disadvantage that the English kind of suck. But hey, nobody said this would be easy!

The fact the SGOTM failed on SS condition might have been influenced (you know you like understatements ) by the 1CC - heck, 1 tile challenge India was facing.

Now that's intriguing... one-*tile* challenge? What was *that* about?

I believe this is very doable for all VC's but 20K or domination (unless on pangea for dom).

Is there any way at all to give an AI civ a decent chance at overseas conquest? Probably not, huh?

Should we take Pangea (and drop the English idea) to counter that, or should we avoid cooking the map conditions in our favor and take the situation like a man?

* * * *

We'll need some luck at first -- if the civ we meet has crap land, they'll have a hard time becoming a superpower.

Which reminds me, since underuse and misuse of workers are among the AI's main sins, we'll want to beeline for Map Making and set up nearly-permanent ROP with our neighbor so we can pitch in a helping hand. Does anybody know if it's considered incitement of war if you change the improvement type in foreign territory? (It would be great if we could switch some of that useless despot grassland irrigation into mines instead.)

If we do go with the English, we can perhaps help our puppet get overseas contacts by going to war with the civ that we want them to be able to contact, then luring a galley of that civ over to the puppet. As soon as that's achieved, the war can be called off. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I think the constant war with them was the primary problem. I guess they don't want to build spaceship parts while at war.

Anybody know any tools to coax an AI *away* from wars with its neighbors reliably and in the long term?

e.

will lurk as i will have limited time in the next 6 months or so.

same things B said...

Now that's intriguing... one-*tile* challenge? What was *that* about?

In SGOTM09 India started on a one-tile island, but the civ played was the Vikings. The challenge was coaxing India off the island to build the SS. Quoted here are the conditions pre-set in that game:

You start the game as a near neighbour of India. Following the pact you are at permanent war with Gandhi, and must remain so for the rest of the game. You are allowed no peace treaties with India. And India must win by space victory. All victory conditions are switched on except diplomatic, but the winning team will be the one that gets India to Alpha Centauri, and does it fastest.

This is NOT a sign-up. :)

To keep an AI away from war there needs to be an equilibrium of powers, or even better, they need to have the upper hand in their wars. For that they'll need to be given state of the art military techs ASAP. You could also consider lowest agression setting.

Getting RoP and working their tiles is a grand idea, too.

And our favorite granny answered about the indian 1TC :thanx:

If there is any space left, I'd love to join. This sounds very interesting

edit: Also, I can only do conquests or PTW

In SGOTM09 India started on a one-tile island, but the civ played was the Vikings. The challenge was coaxing India off the island to build the SS. Quoted here are the conditions pre-set in that game:

You start the game as a near neighbour of India. Following the pact you are at permanent war with Gandhi, and must remain so for the rest of the game. You are allowed no peace treaties with India. And India must win by space victory. All victory conditions are switched on except diplomatic, but the winning team will be the one that gets India to Alpha Centauri, and does it fastest.

Well, it's hard to imagine a tougher puppetmastering situation than that one. On the other hand, it's hard to imagine that one being winnable, while the challenge I'm defining here is much, much easier, so maybe it will be. I want the game to be challenging and fun, not just challenging. ;-)

This is NOT a sign-up. :)[/delurk]


Aw, shucks.

Lo5

I didn't set a roster size because I don't know what's a good one, though it seems most succession games have a starting roster of 5 to 8 people or so? I'll pretend they do. :-)

Schedule:

As long as a fifth player joins in time, the first turnset will be on Tuesday or Wednesday. I'll be away over the weekend, as will one interested party, and Monday or both Monday and Tuesday will be needed for the final pre-game decision-making. If I don't hear any preferences on game settings by then, I'll go with the ones I outlined above.


Turnset size: 10 turns OK with everybody?


Roster and roll call:

Lo5 - "on deck", is what I think they call it...
Frrosch
TimBentley
pneuma
{mandatory free slot}
{optional free slot}
{optional free slot}
{optional free slot}

Lo5

I'm back again, a bit tired but fine at all.

About the settings: I don't really care about climate, so the middle settings would be fine with me. Standard map is also fine, but I'd prefer pangaea or continents to archipelago.

About the civ: I don't really like seafaring civs, but if we play on archipelago it could be helpful. As we want to improve the puppets land as well, a industrial civ could be good. Maybe the chinese or the persians. Or the ottomans. Random civs for our rivals are fine.

I've been quite selfish regarding other settings. I see no need to also push for England.

Anything but Pangea will make things difficult if our neighbor is ill-suited for a non-military victory, but I don't like cooking the map settings. OK, Continents but with a less sea-oriented nation.

I've played the Chinese so much -- as they're so awesome -- that I'm a bit bored of them. I've never really gotten the full potential out of the mighty Immortals, but with steamrollering our nearest neighbor being quite possibly against our best interests, the Persians are probably a bad idea. The Ottomans, on the other hand, will help us right in the midgame, when I suspect things will start to really get out of control. Good idea!

We still don't have a fifth player, but perhaps I shouldn't insist on it; one will surely come in any case.

A succession order that respects time zones would probably be better than the "first come, first served" order I wrote above. Frrosch, you and I are in the same time zone. I can receive and send saves only during working hours, however, as I don't have home internet access at the moment. Thus you should come before me, and maybe one other person should come between us two... well, it all depends on Tim's and pneuma's time zones and daily schedules, as well as yours.

Lo5

Just for the record, I have no settings preferences (or any preferences of what settings not to have haven't been suggested).

I found it interesting that both eldar04 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=115103) and RBD19 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43926) (they only wanted the "little brother" to win by SS, which Persia did) were on emperor.

It could be seen from my and pneuma's locations that we are in the Central Time zone. Evenings usually are good.

If it would be at all possible, I would **love** to be included in this SG. I'm rather new to CFC (just look at my post count :rolleyes: ), but I think this would be a good game to start on. I have internet access at all hours and I'm on Pacific Standard Time, but, for the purposes of this SG, let's say I'm on Central Standard Time, because I work odd hours and go to bed early.

Continents + the ottomans would be great, and though school starts for me in a week, I'll be able to scrape out enough time for SGs every two days at very least. Put me wherever you want on the roster.

Tim: Oh, wow. Bourbonnais. My father lives in Kempton, and I went to Cabery high school for half a year 20 years ago. (My father is an ex-hippie and migrated to the area because of a new-agey town named Stelle that you might have heard of, then stayed.)

It's disappointing to hear that my "new" idea is so old. :-/ Hopefully it'll still have some spice in it anyway. Maybe we can pull off a conquest win! Uh, loss! Whatever!

OK, Emperor, standard everything, ready, aim, fire!

Order, unless there are any objections:
Lo5
Frrosch
TheLoneMan
TimBentley
Pneuma

Will be delivering 10 moves' worth of Ottoman goodness tomorrow at 10 AM CET.

Lo5

Can't wait :cool:

Will you find a place for me in the roster? Although it's my first post on cfc forums I have been lurking around for about 2 months and I am no more a novice :D
I live in GMT +1 zone, moreover I have 24/7 access to the internet.

What about allowing conquest and domination victory and disallowing giving cities to our puppet?

OK, roster expanded to
Lo5
Frrosch
TheLoneMan
TimBentley
Pneuma
Anar

If nothing else, this gives us a reserve if people drop out! (Not that I'm indifferent if people drop out, but poop happens.)

Welcome aboard, Anar!

Lo5

4000 BC

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/3742/64wj6.th.png

Our starting position is on a river with no hints of a reason to move, and gaining information for the worker's use by founding a city seems like a better move than gaining information for the settler by moving the worker. I found Giuseppe, popping a hut in the process. We get Ceremonial Burial. Not too useful except as trading fodder.

The lack of BGs in the fat cross is a bit of a bummer. The forests may be hiding some BGs, but I'd prefer to first arrange for having any shields at all.

Since the Philosophy gambit is probably out of the question without Alphabet, I go for the non-river grassland first so that the river grassland can then be reached without losing a turn. 50-turn science (20% slider rate) on Iron Working. Hopefully will still have some trade value left by that point. Hopefully.

Build set to Warrior.


3950: Start work on a mine.


3900-3850: Zzz. (Nothing of note.)


3800: Citizen moved over to tile where worker will be finishing mine next turn, as finishing of improvements happens before shields are counted.


3750: Start work on road. Oooh!


3700: Zzz.


3650: Warrior finished, goes north since that makes use of the road and since the north may be hilly, giving us a bit more vision per move. This uncovers a Wine grasslands. Nice. Worker crosses river to grasslands tile #2 and last.


3600: Start work on mine #2.


3500: Luxes raised to 10% to cover discontent. Science lowered to 10% to avoid accidentally spending more than 1 gold/turn later on. Our still-unnamed band of warriors hits a mountain just in time for the end of the turnset. Hmm. Looks like we won't lack for land, although we'll end up... appreciating... the Industrious trait!

There may be a bottleneck in the terrain in the north, although bottling off any northern neighbor will be a mixed blessing if that's who our puppet will be.

A warrior is due in two turns with an overflow of one shield due to the mine coming online next turn. A switch to a spearman will give us a more barb-resistant explorer built with no overflow, at the cost of three more turns spent on the task. Frrosch's call!


Dotmap below is absolutely advisory-only! Yes, the spacing suggested is quite tight. :-)

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/169/65fv2.png

Lo5

Actually I like the tight spacing since it makes hospitals later on pretty useless, which is nice. Have we considered building the Great Library? It might help to keep the parity in techs in the early game and later on once we get all contacts trading techs will be much easier. So what say you?

I found Giuseppe, popping a hut in the process. We get Ceremonial Burial. Not too useful except as trading fodder.


If you had set your research temporarily to CB, you would have got something more valuable.

Actually I like the tight spacing since it makes hospitals later on pretty useless, which is nice. Have we considered building the Great Library? It might help to keep the parity in techs in the early game and later on once we get all contacts trading techs will be much easier. So what say you?

Actually, not being able to get use from hospitals later on isn't really an advantage; it's a loss of flexibility, albeit not a very valuable option is beng lost.

It's all the benefits earlier on -- more squares worked faster, more time spent online for the squares we improve due to tile sharing, slightly easier defense, etc. -- that drive me to do it.

I was an OCP maniac back in Civ II, but it just doesn't work in this game. (In Civ II, early "hospitals" and pop booms from "We love" days made filling up the whole 21 squares by the midgame a snap.)


All wonders are a gamble. The Great Library at least has a decent window for being built, and comes late enough to not cut into REXing. It's a nice thing. Still, it ties us to a particular path (reduces our flexibility) and we could probably do just fine without it. What do other people think?

e.

If you had set your research temporarily to CB you would have got something more valuable

Learn something every day! Well, that trick probably won't come into play again in this game, but I'll keep it in mind for normal games.

Lo5

got it, I will play right now. The dotmap looks nice, but spot #2 is too close to our capital imho.

With this terrain, think food boni. Think serttling #1 on the river and irrigating the wines ASAP. Think chopping a granary out of those trees for some more food. You need every loaf you can scrape out of this map, since it won't give in readily.
Also, knowing where you are geographically shouold give pointers as the likely optimal direction to find friends: aka towards the center of the map.

This sounds quality. Emperor or Monarch would be best as I could see this becoming quite difficult.

Im on "standard time", GMT that is :p

The best bets for this would be just a standrad start with major sucking up to the first met civ. Space Race or points are probably the main way for them to win.

lol. I guess ill read the second page next time instead of just asuming discussion is still taking place. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

No granary without Pottery, not Pottery without either losing the benefit of 10 turns of studying Iron Working.

Fortunately, Pottery is pretty easy to trade for.

It took me a moment to understand the import of settling on the river, but now I think I get it -- you're referring to the city's irrigation-"transporting" ability, right, and a #1 positioned on the river's NE bank? That's sort of radically "food-first," but the stuff *is* pretty important. Anybody up for a new dotmap that develops onwards from that move?

We're already in the center of the map. (Thought it was too early for a snip of the minimap to be a loss, now I see I was wrong.) We only have two directions we can go, so to speak, and a second explorer probably coming soon. I think that that particular aspect of things will be unusually simple this game.

Re spot #2: You'd be amazed how close you can get the closest placements while still finding 12 squares for each city. However, this will mean a quite wide spacing somewhere else close by. I'm still in favor of settling one of the three spots that will get the fish, though, though Beorn's right, getting the wines irrigated is the most important priority.

Lo5

OK, here we go:

3500 B.C. (preturn): MM is ok, so I just press enter

3450 B.C.:
Move warrior north, uncovers banana jungle.

IBT: Guiseppe finishes warrior => settler
Worker finishes mine

3400 B.C.:
Worker starts road
Warriors explore

3350 B.C.:
exploring

IBT: worker finishes road

3300 B.C.:
Warriors explore
Worker moves north.

IBT:
In the south we see a Spanish warrior. Seems like we found our puppet.

3250 B.C.:
They are already annoyed.
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/899/spanishtd0.jpg
They got alphabet but I could only buy it for masonry, 46 gold and our worker and I don't want to sell our worker.
So I sell them masonry for 60 gold, because they are our puppet.
The northern scout uncovers a hut in the mountains in the north.

3200 B.C.:
worker starts road in the hill N-NW of Guiseppe.
Warriors explore.

3150 B.C.:
Warrior pops hut => gets attacked
The Spanish now are Alphabet, Warrior Code and Pottery ahead. I'm not sure anymore if it was a good idea to sell them masonry

IBT:
Warrior kills attacking barb warrior, no HP lost.

3100 B.C.:
Warrior attacks barb warrior, wins (1 HP left).
Southern warrior uncovers diamonds on a mountain.

3050 B.C.:
Northern warrior fortifys.
Southern warrior moves towards diamond mountain

IBT:
worker finishes road, Guiseppe grows to 3. Settler done in 2.

3000 B.C.:
raise lux to 30% (+3 gpt)
move worker on wines.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7169/overviewlk2.jpg
The next player could either let the mm as it is (growth in 10, settler in 2, +3 gpt) or switch the grasslands N of Guiseppe and the grasslands E-NE of Guiseppe both to forests with rivers (no growth, settler in 1, +4 gpt). I'd prefer the second one.
The city imho should be built on one of the red dot, giving us the wines.
The one on the hill would leave us more space to settle on the coast.
The one West of the worker looks not too good, but we don't know about the tiles North and west of it.
The third one looks quite nice, 'cos we could immediately start irrigating the wines, but than we could not settle on the second spot Lo5 proposed.

It's all on the lone man

The save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=136994&stc=1&d=1156948937)

Settling on the tobacco would be nice, but settling one NE to get the wines immediately would be preferable at this time. I'm pretty sure Spain (or another neighbor) will go for iron working after she finishes the wheel, before the min run completes.

Got it. Will play now.

Turn 0: Press Enter.

IBT: Zzz.

Turn 1: Build settler, set production to Warrior. Move settler along road to BS 1. Build road on Wines. Move warriors.

IBT: Zzz.

Turn 2: Found Edrine. Move Warriors. See Spanish border.

IBT: Zzz.

Turn 3: Finish road (Hooray!). Move worker SW to irrigate. Move warriors.

IBT: Zzz.

Turn 4: Move warriors. Irrigate square 2SW of Edrine.

IBT: Get cornered by Barb warrior.

Turn 5: Fortify northern warrior. Move southern warrior.

IBT: Barb warrior attacks. We win, full health.

Turn 6: Move warriors.

IBT: Zzz.

Turn 7: Finish irrgation. Complete warrior in Edrine, set production to worker. Move warriors.

IBT: Zzz.

Turn 8: Spanish will give up Pottery for everything we have, decide not to. They are Annoyed with us (Gasp!). Set worker to irrigating Wines. Move warriors.

IBT: Zzz.

Turn 9: See Barbarian encampment, move northern warrior east to a mountain (now on Barb's NW/SE axis). There's no way to get around them, so fortifying on the mountain is the only option.

IBT: Encampment moves one Barb SE towards our warrior's mountain.

Turn 10: Fortify Northern warrior. The Barb will attack our "Man on the Mountain" IBT. Guiseppe grows next turn, Edrine in two. Worker finishes irrigation next turn, so I change a citizen to there. I'm not so sure on what our overall strategy's going to be, we should have some discussion about that.

Also, I think we should stick with Lo5's settling plan.

The game's current situation.

Got it. I'll also consider city placement more.

I think we can turn down lux to 0%, saving 2 gpt.

I would try to expand to the north, though there are no really good city spots. But if we expand to the south, the Spanish had less space to settle.

IMO we should either get more contacts ASAP or build the GL, otherwise we'll be facing hostile cavalry with our pikes or even spears. So I would say that's our main problem at the moment. Any ideas concerning techs?

I only wish TLM had followed Beorn's placement advice instead of mine. :lol:

Oh well, the damage done was minor, and at least we'll be able to head out fishing.

Tim's suggestion for a placement on the tobacco is interesting; my understanding is that it won't affect the City Square yield and will thus be "lost", but then, it does make the whole settlement pattern a lot less awkward.

The 2 (count 'em, *2*) bonus grassland squares within our easy reach should probably play a large role in deciding what spots get settled the earliest.

Speaking of which, we need more workers, and this earlier than usual. Those forests and jungles aren't going to chop themselves. :-)

I agree that we'll probably be beaten out to Iron Working. 50-turns on Emperor are rarely about being first to something anyway, though, more about not being last. I *hope* we're not last, and that we can get something decent from it.

Contacts are coming rather slow! If only pottery weren't so important (it definitely IS worth everything we have IMO), I'd push for a purchase of Alphabet, as we need to get a curragh out there.

* * * * * *

Grand strategy: Hmm. I can think of about 25 civs that I would rather have had as a puppet than Spain. Not cultured enough for an easy culture win, not aggressive enough for an easy aggression-based win, not awesome enough to easily set up the infrastructure for a spaceship.

On the other hand, they might be a bit less incompetent than usual at sea. I still wouldn't trust them to conquer enough overseas for a military victory in this game, and the only direction for them to conquer on their own continent will probably be over our dead bodies. Nothing against that per se, as a win for us isn't the point, but with hardly any cities left we'll have hardly any ability to pull strings.

So -- cultural, spaceship, diplomatic, or histogram? Would y'all agree that they probably won't make it to a cultural win? Of the remainder, Histogram is probably easiest and uncoolest, and spaceship definitely the opposite. What do you say to Spaceship with Diplo as a backup plan?

Lo5

Hmm.. I think conquest would be cool, weakening the cities and letting them capture it. Otherwise, we could just go with Spaceship, though I don't see how it's going to work..

Tim's suggestion for a placement on the tobacco is interesting; my understanding is that it won't affect the City Square yield and will thus be "lost", but then, it does make the whole settlement pattern a lot less awkward.
Only shield (before size 7, IIRC) and food bonuses are lost by settling on them. Commerce bonuses still apply.

Playing now.

I'll also consider city placement more.
Well, I haven't.

2550(0): lux to 0%
change Giuseppe to temple as granary prebuild to make sure chops don't accidentally build settler (and waste shields)
changing science won't help

IBT: warrior wins

2510(1): zzz

IBT: Edrine worker->temple as granary prebuild

2470(2): meet Greece
they have same techs as Spain (all but iron working)
buy worker for 112g
start chopping

2430(3): northern warrior angers some Nubians

2390(4): zzz

2350(5): chop reveals BG

2310(6): presumably Greece learned iron working and Spain bought it
disperse barb camp

IBT: warrior gets promoted defending against barb, so palace is upgraded

2270(7): find Greek border

2230(8): Spain has 2 workers for sale, but decide against having to buy pottery using gpt

IBT: eastern warrior (on mountain) dies to barb

2190(9): Spain still has 2 workers for sale; I had seen two Greek warriors heading in Spanish direction (but that wouldn't explain Spain's 25g drop and Greece's 25g gain on turn 6)
send Giuseppe's warrior to continue exploration
disperse barb camp

2150(10): Spain's still at war with someone with troops near their capital
move Edrine's warrior to Giuseppe

Notes: Spain would sell worker for 112g, pottery for 90g (same price as Greece) (next turn we could get both for 1gpt and most gold)
You'll have to buy pottery this turn or next so Giuseppe can switch to granary (alas, a turn after growth)
Both temples are granary prebuilds
Hopefully northern warrior will meet someone won't know iron working in 10 turns

Only shield (before size 7, IIRC) and food bonuses are lost by settling on them. Commerce bonuses still apply.You get any shield bonus from size 7 on, but when industrious, if you settle on a shield bonus tile (iron, furs...) while size 1-6, you still get 1 shield. However I'm not sure wether or not you'd get +2 for coal or +3 for uranium while size 1-6 though, or when/if natural shields (plains, BG, desert, hill) apply.

Is it just me, Tim, or do you have an unusually pretty font for the lower-right-hand general-info/unit-info text box?

(lust lust lust font-lust)

Lo5

I've got the save, will play it some point later, I'm too damn tired now.

Buy pottery as soon as possible so we can switch the prebuild to granary (is there still time before growth?)

Turn 0 (2150 BC)
Buy pottery from spain for 90g, they have two workers for sale but as its our puppet I don't buy them.
Edrine and Guiseppe switch to granaries

Turn 1 (2110)
Nothing interesting

IBT: Guiseppe completes granary, starts settler

Turn 2 (2070)
Move northern warrior away from barbarians. We can deal with them later if no one else does.

Turn 3 (2030)
Move Edrine's citizen off the wines and onto a forest, it growing too soon will be a problem.

Turn 4 (1990)
Barbarians pop out of a hut in the northern marshes

IBT: One barb dies no damage taken to our warrior

Turn 5 (1950)
Nothing much

IBT: Another barb dies, still no damage taken

Turn 6 (1910)
Joey's worker goes to a plains forest on its side of the river. I think it should have been sent to one of the green forests on the other side earlier

IBT: The northern warrior dies to a barbarian while defending on a mountian :mad:

Turn 7 (1870)
Workers and warriors move, nothing exciting.

IBT: Guiseppe completes a settler, starts a spearman to be a hardier explorer than the now-dead warrior

Turn 8 (1830)
Settler to the tobacco west of Guiseppe (cxxc from Edrine and Guiseppe)

Turn 9 (1790)
Bursa founded

Turn 10 (1750)
Iron working comes in. All techs we can research are already known by both Spain and Greece (warrior code, the wheel, mysticism, alphabet). I set it to the wheel and turn up science funding, but this can be changed with nothing lost by the next person.
Guiseppe's warrior is sent to Edrine in preparation for its growth and the resulting foggy skies.



We have a severe shortage of military: two warriors. One is exploring the south, one is acting as military police and garrison for three cities. This needs to be fixed. I would have started a warrior instead of a spearman in Guiseppe, but I didn't take into account the fact that we are industrious when I started the chop a turn before.

edit: and the save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84841/LO5_1_1750_BC.SAV)

We have taken wrong path of research. We are now backward and not likely to obtain a tech which me might further distribute among other civs. We should have gone for alphabet, writing and then literature since it's a tech IA usually skips, and this would open up some opporunities for decent trades. Any ideas?

Warrior code is out of the question as it leads to nothing, and mysticism is too expensive to go for and make it to polytheism in time for a decent chance at a monopoly, especially with India as a neighbor.

Horseback riding is cheaper than writing, but the AI likes it more. I'd say go for alphabet at 100%.

It's been no "got it", and 30 hours.... skip?

now it's 40 hours, i would propose to skip him

I wanted to consult with other players as to what to do, but noone answered for over 24h..

1750: Bought alphabet from spain for 165 gp. MMed Edrine so that next turn we'll have full granary. Started 50 turn research of writing.
1725: giuseppe spearman -> barracks; edrine granary -> settler
IBT: our puppet demands 20 gp and since we are in no position for resistance I give in
1700: I changed warrior to curragh in Bursa.. we need contacts
1675: zzzz..
1650: zzzz...
IBT: Barbarians come to our southern border.
1625: zzzz...
1600: I have to raise luxury slider from 0 to 10%.
1575: giuseppe barracks ->spearman; bursa curragh -> curragh. Since we have no contacts with our north I send our first curragh north.
IBT: Barbarians attack and die to our mighty regular spearman.
1550: Spain has only 3 cities which is not a lot, Greece has 4 cities.
1525: zzz...
1500: bursa curragh -> barracks; giuseppe spearman -> spearman

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95852/LO5_1_1500_BC.SAV

It seems that Greece is at war with Spain. Unfortunantely our military can't help Spain in that war actively. But we should declare war on Greeks so that they will send some of their military in our direction and hopefully our spearmen can defend us from it.

I'm not sure if I like to have hoplites in our territory, pillaging our wines. I think it's better to stay out of this war and being a bigger help for the spanish lateron

Got it. Save to arrive tomorrow morning Central European Time.

Anar, I find writing-based beelines to be rather risky if you don't start with Alphabet, that's why I took the "wrong path." I think we can do our writing just fine with the help of pointy sticks, but we need to know where to get the shiny points and how to make them. Of course the only non-puppet neighbor being Greece does complicate things a bit. :-) That's a risk that didn't occur to me. :-(

I agree with the Lit beeline from here, though.

Sadly, I have to agree with Frrosch as regards drawing the Greeks towards us. AFAICT from the screenshots to date, we almost have a decent, easily closable chokepoint, but don't quite... it'll be closable at little cost once we're in Republic, but for the moment, we just can't spare that many units, and the risk of hoplites having free reign among our workers and improvements isn't one we can afford, I think.

I agree in general that warriors are superior to spearmen as early builds, all things being equal. (E.g. I'll sometimes take a 20-shield spearman over a 12-shield warrior even very early on.) Flukes like the mountain death to a barb can happen to spearmen too, that's why they're called flukes

I'll probably cancel the rax. We seem to need units as such, not veteran units.

Lo5

Actually, I think I'll delay the move by one day. Sorry to everyone who's desperately awaiting a new move, but it seems like we're a ship without a direction. Plus, we just plain have had some bad luck. Maybe a day of discussion will give some bright ideas and more consensus behind what I do during the next turnset.

Points of discussion:

* Rax right now, or not? (My vote: not right now.)
* War declaration on Greece? (My vote: too early.)
* Lit beeline? (My vote: yes.)
* Writing via purchase, via, 50-turn or via 100% research? (My vote: 100%, to avoid the risk of reaching Lit too late to gain any benefit.)

* Brainstorming on how to help Spain when we're not so well off ourselves
* New dotmaps?
* There's gotta be something more :-)

Lo5

* Usually I tend to use regular units only early on as MP. If we choose not to go to any war any time soon then I agree - no barracks yet.
* War with Greece might be risky, but if we don't intervene Spain may have a problem soon, since they are probably not able to deal with solid hoplites. Choice is not easy.
* When it comes to literature it's quite difficult. Whether to go for 100% writing or not. We do not know how far is the rest of the world. IMO we should go for 50 turn writing and if we are beaten to it buy it once possible. Then literatura ASAP.

What's next?
I think we should claim as much land as possible and then use our scientific trait! It's possible to be tech leader if only we build enough cities. Every single (productive) city should have library and respectively university ASAP. If we succeed then our task will be easy. Declaring wars, allying (technologically advanced) Spain and watching her prevail!

My 2 cents:

* Rax right now, or not?
Don't think we need them now, and as we soon need a second MP in Edrine and also one or two MPs in Bursa building some units is more useful.

* War declaration on Greece?
As I said, I don't like the thought of hoplites pillaging our territory

* Lit beeline?
It's the best choice imho.

* Writing via purchase, via, 50-turn or via 100% research?
100% won't be doable as we need 10% of lux at the moment ;)
But the highest possible, maybe we can get it even before the Greeks or Spanish

* Brainstorming on how to help Spain when we're not so well off ourselves
-Leaving them space to settle (means just expand to the north)
-Unfortunately I think that's all we can do at the moment.

* New dotmaps?
Coming in next post, in 15 minutes or so.

Just the next 3 cities, I'd like to know the coastal tiles in the NW before dotmappingmore.

I would do the order: 1. Red 2. Blue 3. Green

* Rax right now, or not?

IMO, depends on how quickly it can be out.

* War declaration on Greece?

No. Definitely not.

* Lit beeline?

The best of our limited options, IMHO.

* Writing via purchase, via, 50-turn or via 100% research?

Hmm... I've got an idea, might not work, so tell me what you think... We could go for zero-science, maximizing money-making while building military. Then we can give Spain an MA vs Greece, as well as however much cash is needed, for Writing and any other techs we can get.

* Brainstorming on how to help Spain when we're not so well off ourselves

Don't. Just ignore Spain, leave her room, and just make sure we're doing OK. As long as she isn't about to kill herself or make a critical mistake, we need to make sure we're in a position to help her later in the game.

* There's gotta be something more :-)

Establish the choke point, build a fortress if we can spare a worker and stack it with defense.

Just the next 3 cities, I'd like to know the coastal tiles in the NW before dotmappingmore.

I would do the order: 1. Red 2. Blue 3. Green

Thanks for standing up to the challenge, Frrosch! As usual, I'd like to go a bit more radical on the city stuffing :lol:, so as to maximize how many squares (including sea squares) we can squeeze out of our territory. I'd replace Blue with two other cities, one of them 1 N and the other 2 SW, in that order (that is, 1} Red, 2} "Blue A": N of Blue, 3} "Blue B": 2 SW of Blue, 4} either Green or, if the low available squares count after switching to the "blues" is too worrisome, some different square a little further away from Blue A.

It may be best to found Green third and Blue B fourth instead, actually, since Blue B needs some worker, uh, work to get going.

What do y'all say?

In any case, it seems Red is uncontroversial, so if I have the task of settling in my turnset (can't remember), I'll go there.

Thanks to everyone for the advice and patience with the delay of this turnset. Will be playing this evening and delivering tomorrow morning CET.

Lo5

OK, regarding research, we have one vote each for 0%, 50-turn, and max. :lol: Thus, I'll do whatever seems like a good idea to me at the time. :-)

Lo5

Replacing the blue spot with 2 other cities looks ok to me, too.

Hmm... I've got an idea, might not work, so tell me what you think... We could go for zero-science, maximizing money-making while building military. Then we can give Spain an MA vs Greece, as well as however much cash is needed, for Writing and any other techs we can get.
We need an embassy for a MA, and writing for an embassy.

I would go for writing at max (if we are beaten it will reduce the price); 50-turn research is going to have us be the last person to get it again.

We need an embassy for a MA, and writing for an embassy.

I would go for writing at max (if we are beaten it will reduce the price); 50-turn research is going to have us be the last person to get it again.

I... knew that...

The nice thing about going 100% for Lit is that, even if we get beaten to Writing, it minimizes the time until we get at least *some* benefits. If we don't get beaten to Writing, then that's icing on the cake.

I delayed my turnset until the end of the evening, and then suddenly out of the blue, my wife decided that sex was more important than Civilization. I didn't have the nerve to explain that I'm in a succession game (and what one is) and that my turnset is more important than sex.

Moral of the story: do turnset at the *beginning* of an evening's play next time. :blush:

Lo5

no problem Lo5.
When will you play?

Tonight. I really ought to get internet connectivity at home again so things aren't delayed until the morning after every session. There are lots of other reasons as well, but hey, if it's a succession game that convinces me, so be it. :-D

Lo5

:spank:
Play now! I can't wait for this going on.

Sorry again for the extra day's unintended wait and the perhaps debatable intended one before that. Aaaand -- as the Ramones would say, rock and rock and rock and roll, let's go!

* * * * * * * *

I'd like to request that fellow puppetmasters END THEIR TURNSETS AT THE END OF THE TURN in future turnsets. This is standard practice in a lot of (most?) succession games, and I think the reasoning behind it (more convenient for pre-flight checking) is sound.


1500 BC (1): I choose Tim's suggestion since it's the most conservative and thus prudent in a crisis (which I think we're in), and my rather radical approach is what got us in trouble in the first place. In other words: I now raise the research rate to 90%.

Southern curragh southward ho!

Giuseppe abandons build of spearman -> settler, which after initial microing for max production (and a little whack-a-mole with MPs) will land very nicely at 0% overrun and 0 further micromanagement. Plus you can never have too many cities. :-) Bursa abandons build of barracks -> warrior.

IBT: If Greece wasn't in GA before, it sure is now. :-( Edrine finishes Settler -> Worker, not necessarily final build.


1475 BC (2): Possible ATM to juggle and run 100% science, so I do. I send settler to Frrosch's Red. Unescorted. :-O


1450 BC (3): Zzz.


1425 BC (4): Curragh reveals barb camp S-SE of Giuseppe. Spanish explorer has hit the ocean; I decide to loop him back homeward.

IBT: the barbs were getting worried that we were going to ignore them, so they'd already sent out some horsies. OMG PONIEZ!! Bursa finishes warrior -> Settler.


1400 BC (5): Jiri Trnka founded at Red. Build set to Worker. I suddenly realize Giuseppe has a barracks. I still think the settler build is best, though.

IBT: Our continuing failure to build an "anti-extortion" tilted army (warriors and if possible archers rather than spearmen) plus the barb loss means YET MORE extortion. Greece this time. I chicken out. Barb warrior moves towards Jiri Trnka from the NW. Giuseppe Settler -> Warrior.


1375 BC (6) I suddenly realize I don't like the concept of not settling ANY of the even SLIGHTLY Eastern positions at all, and the Giuseppe settler is ideally sited to found this type of site, so I rebel a bit and head towards a new site at one of them. Apologies for bucking the dotmap. SW worker heads to spot that was mined but not roaded -- hope that wasn't me!

IBT: Spearman in Giuseppe kills barb horseman.


1350 BC (7): Zzz, except for last-minute change of mind on position of Selfishville.

IBT: Jiri Trnka ransacked, 17 gold lost. Giuseppe finishes Warrior -> Warrior. (It's so rare to have the 5 shields level that so nicely fits Warrior/Worker builds that I hate to waste it, and a worker build would nuke it to utilize it. :-)


1325 BC (8): I guess leaving border cities entirely undefended isn't gonna win me too many fans among the rest of the team, so the core cities send out what they can spare. The new spot for Selfishville turns out to score us a whale.

IBT: Isabella just doesn't understand me! *Sniff* (exploring warrior booted)


1300 BC (9): Selfishville founded, build set to Warrior. Temple for the whales is tempting, but probably not worth it for quite a while yet. Back to probing the depths of Isabella.

IBT: Giuseppe finishes Warrior -> Settler.

1275 BC (10): Unhappiness outstrips supply of MP's, so I raise to 10% and send the spearman that that's freed up out to pop the hut on top of the future western Bluetown. Unfortunately, I send him out in the wrong direction. I blame the Wine.

**LARGE STRIP OF CURRAGH-UNSAFE COASTLINE DISCOVERED IN THE NW**. If we can't spare some suicide curraghs, we need to give Map Making a higher than usual priority. May also be galley-unsafe, though.

* * *

No overview map this time, didn't think of it. :-/

* * *

Lo5

Shall I move immediately or is there any discussion to do?

Edit: I will have lunch first, if noone posts here the next 2 hours or so I will play, I don't think there's much to discuss about.
I just realized that the north of us is a peninsula, maybe we can manage to claim the whole north.
Galleys won't help us in the north, so I think we'll have to arrange with suicide curraghs.

Galleys won't help us in the north, so I think we'll have to arrange with suicide curraghs.

There's one spot early on in that region with a diagonal that seemed like, with more information, it might possibly turn out to be galley-safe. I didn't examine it very closely, though, and I only mean to say that it didn't rule out the possibility of being galley-safe, not that it definitely is.

Lo5

ok, I'll play right now, it got a bit later because I was "forced" to play a match of warcraft ;)

Preturn 1275 BC:
Bit of MMing, Settler in Edrine now due in 1, switch Bursa to spear as we imo still need more military.
Lux raised to 20% for one turn so Edrine doesn't riot. Writing still done in 3.
What does our Warrior do there in Spanish territory? Will move him out asap.

IBT:
Edrine finishes Settler -> warrior (as a MP)
Bursa finishes Spear -> curragh

Turn 1 1250 BC:
Lux down to 0, Science still at 80 as it doesn't change anything if I raised it to 100 except gold loss. Now we're doing +1gpt
Northern Curragh discovers a barb village with 2 warriors and 2 horseman on the northern end of our peninsula.
Settler from Edrine moves towards Blue A.
Forgot that the spear was supposed to pop the hut, will do this as soon as there's another spare unit.

IBT:
Isabella sends the warrior out of her territory automaticly.

Turn 2 1225 BC:
Guiseppe grows to 4, warrior from Edrine moved there to prevent a riot.
A barb galley turned up next to our northern curragh. I decide to ignore it and hope that it will fail when attacking us.
Science down to 70%, Writing due in 1.

IBT:
Barb galley attacks, loses, our curragh loses no live and gets promoted to veteran.
Writing done. Science on 100% Literature, due in 14 at -3gpt. Maybe we'll have to turn down to 90 or even 80 percent.

Turn 3 1200 BC:
Sell Writing to the Greeks for Maths, Mysticism and 70 gold.
Buy the Wheel and Warrior Code from the Spaniards for Writing and 64 gold. Now both are gracious.
The Greeks are Horsebackriding and Polytheism ahead, the Spanish only HBR.

IBT:
The Greeks found Pharsalos north of the Spanish.
Warrior finished in Edrine, Edrine grows to 4. Starts a new settler.
Selfishville finishes Warrior -> Worker

Turn 4 1175 BC:
Nothing except moving.

IBT:
Bursa curragh -> granary
Jiri Trnka worker -> worker

Turn 5 1150 BC:
Found Izmit on Blue A. Starts worker as we will need them to chop all this jungle.
The curragh from Bursa will try to pass the sea in the north.
Ah, by the way we got no horses on the entire peninsula. There are some 5SE of Guiseppe but if we settled there that would mean "stealing" space from the spanish.
The northern curragh spots another island we can reach without problems.

IBT:
Guiseppe finishes Settler, starts another one.
The greeks start building the oracle.

Turn 6 1125 BC:
Spear pops the hut on Blue B, gets attacked :(
The new island in the north seems to be not bigger than 6 or 7 tiles. Theres a goody hut on it.

IBT:
On the island a celtish settler turns up. Seems like I was wrong.
Spear kills attacking barb, gets promoted (3/4 HP).
Warrior kills attacking barb (3/4 HP).
Bursa riots because I forgot that it would when I moved out the warrior to kill the barb.

Turn 7 1100 BC:
southern curragh descovers a barb village and 5 barb galleys. Probably will be lost this turn.
Celtia is Polytheism and HBR ahead of us but lacks the alphabet.
I buy HBR for alphabet and 23 gold.
Then I sell them Writing and Maths for Poly and 48 gold (all they have). They got Ivory and 6 cities.
I sell the spanish Polytheism for 250 gold. Now everyones on the same tech level and everyone has 6 cities, except Spain, they got 4 :rolleyes:

IBT:
Our curragh gets killed by the first barb galley.
Edrine grows to 5

Turn 8 1075 BC:
The "small island" turns out to be a continent, maybe even the same we are on.
Lux to 20% so Edrine won't riot. MM a bit so settler is due in 2.

IBT:
Selfishville finishes Worker, starts Temple to get the whale.

Turn 9 1050 BC:
Worker finishes road so a second wine and Jiri Trnka is connected. starts a mine.
Aydin founded on Blue B.
The celts got philosophy and monarchy :eek:

IBT:
Iron gets connected.
Edrine finishes settler -> spear.

Turn 10 1025 BC:
Nothing much.

--------------------------
Save, Screenshots and comments in the next post.

Ok, here we go:

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/9462/celtsandgreeksza7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
I think there's nothing to add, now I'm quite sure it's one continent, which would probably mean that celts and greeks know each other.


http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/2564/suicidecurraghed1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
That's where I'd go with the curragh.


And then, I got an idea, just say what you think about it: We could build a city on one of the 3 dots in the following screenshot, preferably the blue one. This would (with a temple) give us control over the iron and the horses. The horses would be for us, and, now the idea: As the spanish as far as I know don't have a own iron, we could either gift or sell it to them. As a consequence, they would like us more and were a kind of dependent of us, what could be an advantage. I didn't really work this out, but I think it could be good.

http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/615/ironcm7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Ah, before I forget it, an overview over our little empire. I don't have the nerves to do a dotmap now, maybe later.

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/33/overview2zs4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Ah, now I forgot another thing: Maybe we could build embassys with all the gold we have, at least in the spanish capital.

What does our Warrior do there in Spanish territory? Will move him out asap.

I explore folks' territory without ROP all the time in single-player. If anything, constantly getting booted can be an advantage, in the cases where it amounts to useful points of free movement. The attitude penalties from being asked to leave/being booted are very temporary.

Forgot that the spear was supposed to pop the hut, will do this as soon as there's another spare unit.

We haven't named any units so far all game, and naming units seems to be a succession-game tradition. If we start, that band of spearmen looks like it's on its way to earning the title of "The Winos." :lol:

Sell Writing [....] sell writing [...] sell writing [...] (kidding)

That's a lot of use to have been getting out of writing considering we started next to two Alphabet civs! I wonder if the AI decides for Mathematics over Writing more frequently/always if it's at war? In any case, the Spaniards currently have the additional research difficulty of having been totally screwed over all around. :-(

**IMO We should invest in a Spanish embassy ASAP.**

The celts got philosophy and monarchy

Discussion: do we want monarchy? It looks like a monarchy-literature trade will be the fastest way out of Despotism this game, but will we be doing enough early warring to justify the sacrifice of not switching somewhat later to Republic and staying there all game? I don't think so, but what do other people think?

The greeks start building the oracle.

The Spanish have started it too, by the way, during my turnset.

And then, I got an idea, just say what you think about it: We could build a city on one of the 3 dots in the following screenshot, preferably the blue one.

I like the idea in general. I think the Spanish still have enough lebensraum; actually, what they need is not more lebensraum, but a cattle prod to make them use it. :-/ The way things are going, it wouldn't be the Spanish that would take that space, but rather the Greeks.

Does right-clicking the blue one show any gold income? I can never remember the rules for that kind of position. If it's not on the river, I'd say either one of the other two dots, or 1NW of Blue. I like blue and green for nabbing us the horses without a temple, as it's better not to have to build one quickly. (Assuming Game's 1st Horses are more important than Game's 2nd Iron.) I like "NW of Blue" because it appeals to my tight-settlement fetish :lol: I don't like red at all -- 2 spaces from a very nice bit of coast, not on river, needs temple for the horses, don't see the quick access to the iron as important as it will take some time to hook up to Spain in any case.

Lo5

Edit: rewrote reaction to dotmap based on a couple of realizations, added reactions to all the dots.

IMO we should wait for republic since we won't be waging any/a lot of wars. Going into monarchy and then republic is out of question. We can easily be the tech leaders using republic and our scientific trait, which might help Spain in further warfare. So monarchy should not attract our attention at all (I guess no one considered building HG ;)

Blue dot or tile NW from it.. both seem good.

I think we should start a prebuild for FP now.

Going into monarchy and then republic is out of question

You're right, but I think going to monarchy and then to Democracy could be a plan. That would save us something 'bout 30 turns of research now.

I think we should start a prebuild for FP now.

I totally agree. I think Bursa or Edrine are the only cities that come in question.


There's now more than 28 hours and still no comment of the lone man, skip?

Well, there's no much difference between democracy and republic. Since we will maintain small military (at least I think we will) democracy won't bring us any vital profit over republic. So I think we should go straight for republic. Suffering two anarchy times on emperor level is something we should avoid.

If there's no response, I'll grab it tonight.

I agree that I'd prefer a short delay in leaving despotism over two anarchies.

ok, so go for republic.
I think you can play TimBentley, doesn't seem like TheLoneMan want's to do this.

Got it.

1025(0): no more regular units please, switch Edrine to barracks
embassy with Spain, screenshot attached
Spain does not know Celts, not at war with Greece
sigh...irrigated BGs in despotism

1000(1): Spain knows construction
some barbs up north, some archers could be good

IBT: Giuseppe settler->archer
Spain starts ToA
Madrid builds Oracle (SGL)
Greeks cascade to Pyramids

975(2): barbs will delay northern settler from settling

IBT: one dead barb horse

950(3): and an elite spear should be coming up

IBT: while losing 2hp and killing 2 horses

925(4): curragh hoping for survival

IBT: learn literature
buy philosophy from Celts for lit, 54g
still no possibility of buying construction
Jiri Tmka worker->rax
Izmit worker->curragh
Greece establishes embassy
curragh sinks

900(5): Greece bought philosophy from Celts
found Antalya on green dot, start on worker
start max research on CoL
switch Selfishville to library (rush in 4 turns?)
found Konya NW of blue dot, start on worker
wow, we only have 6.5 workers for 9 cities

875(6): zzz

IBT: two more dead barbs
Giuseppe archer->archer

850(7): lux to 10%

825(8): Celts know map making
spot pink border north of Celts

IBT: spot injured Celtic archer, with war with pink?
Edrine riots due to MM losing income
Aydin worker->rax

800(9): zzz

IBT: Celts start Hanging Gardens

775(10): meet Arabia, they know construction, but lack polytheism, writing (leave trading to next player)
Greece knows Arabia
just before Edrine finishes rax I remember to switch it to FP prebuild (we only need 1 more city)

Notes: Arabia would give construction for writing, polytheism, 167g (we could gift them writing and see what's possible then, but Spain's deal seems better)
Spain would give construction for literature, philosophy, 4g
then it looks like Celts would need a little gpt, practically all of our gold and construction for map making
Chopping a couple of forests to speed up a library for Konya would be good
It looks like maybe America, Sumeria, or China is to the north
In case you didn't notice, Great Library in Edrine is FP prebuild
How nice: Spain is second last in points (only ahead of us) and looks last in power; at least they've got decent culture

Damn, guys... I apologize for not checking the thread, it's been so hectic (just started at a new school, buying books and everything), that it totally slipped my mind. I'll try to be more on top of things next week...

Tim, it seems you uploaded wrong save file. You finished your turn in 775 BC, while the save you uploaded is from 1025 BC.

Tim, it seems you uploaded wrong save file. You finished your turn in 775 BC, while the save you uploaded is from 1025 BC.
Fixed .

Turn 0: 775
Spain: philosophy + literature + 4g for construction
The celts have monarchy and map making and not construction, but will not allow any trades
Giuseppe archer->settler to get the horses

IBT Bursa granary->settler

Turn 1: 750
Workers work, curraghs curragh.

IBT: Barb horse moves out of that camp near Antalya

Turn 2: 730
Move the elite spear in Antalya to intercept
Science to 4.6.3 to help Bursa
A chop will go into Selfishville in 8 turns

IBT: Spear takes 2 damage and wins
Giuseppe settler->sword

Turn 3: 710
E Archer takes 2 damage and disperses the camp near Antalya

Turn 4: 690
Nothing interesting

Turn 5: 670
Science spending down

IBT: CoL in, start on republic
Chop gets in to giuseppe

Turn 6: 650
No good trades can be done with CoL even though it is a monopoly tech
Science to 0.7.3

IBT: Bursa settler->settler
Seville library->settler

Turn 7: 630
Bursa's settler goes north

IBT: Giuseppe sword->sword

Turn 8: 610
chop into guiseppe in 3

IBT: Spain demands CoL, doesn't get it. No war, they're still polite.

Turn 9: 590
I change my mind regarding the horses city and move it to get the gems in the 1st radius, the horses in the 2nd (which we get free thanks to Konya)

IBT: Jiri barrack->sword
Izmit curragh->library
Konya warrior->library (for the iron)

Turn 10: 570
Found Kafa north of the gems, move the parked warrior to garrison.
When thinking whether to send the new curragh (the HMS Cheeseburgerbeast) I spot some America-blue borders in the fog to the north. Guess where I send it.
Save-'n'-quit

A picture and a save

Got it, will play in next 2 hours.

0 turn - 570 BC:
In Edrine I switch Great Library to Forbidden Palace. In Giuseppe I switch swordsman to library. Deal with Spain: CoL for MM+100gp.
1 turn - 550 BC:
Our archer barely wins to barb.
2 turn - 530 BC:
Selfishville settler->barracks;
IBT: our spearman wins to barb
3 turn - 510 BC:
nothing
4 turn - 490 BC:
Giuseppe library->worker; Salonika is found, and set to build library; barb killed by swordsman. Since Spain is pretty weak I planned a decent (IMO) plot. Sorry, for not consulting it with you but I think we should react ASAP. Greece is backward, while Celts are even more advanced than us so I wanted to make sure none of those techs will go to Greece anytime soon. I declared war on the Celts and allied Greece against them(for construction). Greece have the strongest military, but dont have iron, which means they wont be effective. So I think they wont capture any cities. This way Greece may become even more backward, moreover they will be weakened when the time come for Spain to attack them. I also switched Kafa from warior to library(we need more culture in this town, since it might flip to Greece).
5 turn - 470 BC:
Giuseppe worker-> swordsman; Bursa settler->worker;
6 turn - 450 BC:
Aydin barracks->library;
IBT: Alexander demands literature, I decline, no war.
7 turn - 430 BC:
Suicidal run of our curragh.
8 turn - 410 BC:
Bursa worker->worker. Our curragh succeeds, America is down literature, no worthwhile trades available. Mugla is found.
9 turn - 390 BC:
Why is AI so dumb. Just got an annoucement that Spain started building 3 great wonders.
10 turn - 370 BC:
nothing

Production in Salonika and Mugla might be switched to something else.
Save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95852/Lo5_1_370_BC.SAV

In fact the spanish are building 4 wonders. D'oh. Anyways, nice idea of the war against celtia. Looks nice.

I think between Guiseppe, Kafa and Konya is enough space for another city, maybe E-E-SE of Guiseppe. I think we'll have to get some irrigation to these plains, also to the ones around Kafa.
The settling you did in the north looks good, I think if we have some spare workers we should clear the swamps 3NE of Mugla to found a city there. Another nice city spot is N-N-NW-NW of Salonika.

Damn, guys... I apologize for not checking the thread, it's been so hectic (just started at a new school, buying books and everything), that it totally slipped my mind. I'll try to be more on top of things next week...

No problem. Mainly glad to hear you're still interested!

Lo5

...and... got it. Will play tonight, deliver tomorrow morning CET.

Lo5

Settling 3 NE of Mugla is advisible, I thought about it as well. Our priority now is clearing all the jungles and marshes, so we need a lot of workers.
So what do you think we should do?
- build workers now (no settlers)
- workers and settlers as well

Actually I prefer the first option. Once dealt with jungles we can send some workers to improve Spanish lands.

It seems we will be in Middleages before Greece, so I think once we obtain feudalism and build some units, we should declare war on Greece and ally Spain against them. To assure Spain won't be crippled we can keep some pikes at their border with Greece.

What do you think?

Other than a city in the gap east of Guiseppe, any other cities will be >60% corrupt (after the FP is built), so workers would be a good emphasis. A war with Greece before too long would be good. Convincing the Spanish despot to allow for a republic would also be good (when our despotism is enlightened).

370 BC (pre-flight): I decide that my turnset will be about doing one or two things, and doing them right. Considering just how dang *far* the Celts are from us and how *little* we can do against them or the Greeks in the next roughly 25 turns, I decide that those one or two things will be non-military.

Jiri Trnka Swordsman->Worker

Antalya Barracks->Harbor

Salonika Archer->Harbor

Bursa mm'ed to finish worker immediately

Giuseppe takes Swordsman->Temple to make the best of a bad situation (80% overrun on Swordsman), debatable but what the hey. Keep in mind later on that this city can be allowed to grow a bit more than usual (definitely let it exceed size 7 ASAP in republic in any case)

Barracks in Selfishville accepted with a sigh.

Konya somethingorother (barracks?)->Settler

Kafa kept on library, that culture will definitely come in handy

WHO'S STACKING WORKERS?? Grrr...

Advice to build 3 NE of Mugla irrelevant for now -- we have a big enough worker shortage as it is without sending off workers to clear marsh in Corruptionland.


IBT: Bursa finishes worker->worker, Jiri Trnka finishes worker->worker

350 BC (1): Our worker count's now just over our city count, and we're industrious. We also still have a lot of jungle to clear, though, so I'm still worried.

Hmm, a settler? Again, 3 NE of Mugla's impossible for several dozen turns in the ideal case. 2 N, 3 NE of Mugla will net us the iron with the help of a library, and it has a built-in grassland so it can start its life by spitting out a 10-turn worker or two. ANY more cities in the north will be as corrupt as hell without some work (connection to capitol, courthouse, Republic) in any case, so we might as well at least get food and workers from the deal...

Bursa worker->Library -- might as well pick up those fish for our worker farm...

IBT: Greeks have started Great Library. Awesome! ;-)


330 BC (2): A road/mine (due S of Selfishville) not adjacent to any roaded space? Grrr...

Gems roll in, allowing 90% science and a jump of the research time for Republic down by 2 turns. Kudos to the man with the gems plan. (And yes, even I would stack workers on that one.)

MM Edrine/Selfishville to shave a turn off barracks while still finishing FP on time.

IBT: Edrine FP->worker


310 BC (3): Gosh, the barbs are quite adamant about the north belonging to them. Seems we'll need to converse with them a bit.

MM to give Edrine worker in 1.

IBT: Chop pushes Konya towards its settler. Edrine worker->worker. Selfishville barracks->horse.


290 BC (4): Zzz. Edrine switch worker->library. We gonna be da science KINGS babuh :-D

IBT: Giuseppe temple->horsies. Jiri Trnka worker->horsies. If the player who takes us into war really prefers swords, these'll still come in handy, I think; the horses will still come in handy for controlling the battlefield.


270 BC (5): 133t archers kill barbs who are squatting our future home. Decide to risk moving in this turn despite lots of camped horsies -- we've got three units, none at less than 4 hp, 2 of 'em are swords, and we're on defensive terrain. New techs to buy -- The Republic (Celts). Grr... they're willing to negotiate, but we're trapped due to reputation. I still agree that this war was a good idea overall, though.

IBT: Barbarians staved off, Aydin finishes library->aqueduct. Maybe not a good idea, change it if you like.


250 BC (6): Jim Henson founded amidst the irony taste of the barbarian outback. Anti-barb armied * f o r t i f i e d * there.

IBT: Celts wanna talk. I wanna keep my promises. Konya settler->barracks. I'd start a granary, but I doubt it'd survive the next turnset anyway. :-)


230 BC (7): MM science to make a quick buck, cause REPUBLIC IS DUE!

IBT: We discover The Republic. We are revolting. Absolutely. Research set to Currency. Let's bust this joint.


210 BC (8): Whew, anarchy means no more microing for me this turnset! :band: Skoupa (yet another puppetry-related name) founded... founded... founded a little further east than I should have, I guess. But we'll do all right. Production set to worker. Cities MM'ed as if I'd learned nothing from the Viva la revolucion thread, because really, I didn't. Well, OK, I do play around a little, turning the revolting cities into all-scientists.

IBT: whew, no starvation.

190 BC (9): Ooh, a barb isle south of America. (I've been curraghing all the while, BTW, just nothing interesting to report about it is all.) It's curragh-unsafe, though, so I retreat.

IBT: Unavoidable starvation at Edrine. Sorry folks. And -- holy crap! Anarchy over already! I hadn't even bothered to check yet. We are now a republic, woot! And the Spanish are building the hanging gardens. At this rate, we'll have to go for a 20K win :rolleyes:

170 BC (10): MM a lot to avoid revolt without raising lux. Anti-barb league attacks, barbs around Jim Henson. What's this?!? The Greeks have founded Rhodes in our holy of holies, the northern peninsula. Good luck to them getting any use out of it, though. Its rapid destruction should be worth a bit of extra profit from peace treaty negotiations, muahaha.

*No production microing was done to reflect the new situation in Republic,* as Frrosch will have his own opinions on build priorities anyway.

Oh dear, it's 5 a.m. :-/ Hope y'all'll forgive me, then, for the lack of a screenshot. I'm going to BED thankyouverymuch!

* * * * * *

(morning after, and having read Tim's comments)

I second the sentiment of gifting (at least) Republic to the Spaniards. We might consider pulling the Science Civ Slingshot when we finish Currency (gift Greece up to middle ages, buy his free tech, then sell our now non-matching free tech to partly recoup or even more than recoup the difference). I mean, what's he gonna do, build pikemen? :-D I do realize it's a risk, though, since we'll soon go to war with him. Above all, it means we won't be able to reasonably deal in GPT during the slingshot deal unless we're willing to wait 20 turns for war afterwards.

ARMY COMPOSITION: Swordsmen will fall like flies to hoplites. Horsies are being built with intention of upgrade only. Med Infs are cheap and a bit earlier than knights. Knights, however, upgrade to Sipahi (sp?)...

If we wait all the way to Sipahi, then we give a bit more time for buildup, reach our golden age a little earlier (due to not being at war during the run-up), and if it takes at least 20 turns to reach Mil Trad, then we can use GPT in the Scientific Slingshot without risking the loss of income/reputation to the war declaration. We might also be able to use the time to repair our relationship with the Celts, who hopefully will be more than happy to fight the evil Greeks again. :-P

We're gradually becoming more than self-sufficient in terms of workers. The time may soon be ripe for the Spanish RoP-and-send-workers plan.

POST-EDIT: It's not really awesome that Greece is building the Great Library, since it won't be very useful in this game, only worth a tech at most; with all those library builds in the last two turnsets, we're structured to be a tech leader now, not a follower. Hopefully a cascade will kick him out of it. Otherwise, we can look forward to it as a tourist attraction and that's it. Well, it's a very late start and I'll bet my momma there's a cascade coming up, so the main thing is to ensure that the Greeks have something nice to cascade to. Muahahahahaaa!

BTW we have libraries in lots of places without the science income to really justify them. We can run a deficit for a while still so they're currenntly at least helping us run it a little faster :-), but in the long run we really need to get the cities with them up in commerce. Unfortunately, we also need lots of other things out of said cities. Balancing will be tough.

k, got it, I hope I got all the things right that you said. I'll play this afternoon, after hopefully getting some more comments.

The celts lost at least 2 cities against the greeks yet, they only got 5 left, so I think they are not a real challenge for the greeks (15 cities) any more. Especially as 3 of the 5 cities are on a small plains/desert peninsula. Maybe they'll even be destroyed soon. I think we can't count on them. Maybe the arabians can take their part in supporting us against the greeks lateron.

And the Spanish are building the hanging gardens. At this rate, we'll have to go for a 20K win
I think a 100K win is more realistic as they are building 5 wonders in 5 cities atm :crazyeye:


ARMY COMPOSITION: Swordsmen will fall like flies to hoplites. Horsies are being built with intention of upgrade only. Med Infs are cheap and a bit earlier than knights. Knights, however, upgrade to Sipahi (sp?)...

I think we should decide this now. If we wan't to go straight for Sipahi, I would like not to research chivalry and, possibly, monotheism. That would be my preference, as sipahi vs. musketmen is much easier than knights vs. hoplites. It would also give us the possibility of doing gpt trades in our scientific slingshot, which is quite a risk but worth it I think, as researching 5 techs at least will take more than 20 turns, in fact probably 30 turns or even a bit more.

I fomented the war between Greeks and Celts mainly to keep Greeks backward. Now that they are building GL, we should come up with some idea to make them fail their great plan of possessing this wonder.

Spain, because we want them to win a war with Greece, has to more advanced in tech then Greeks if they want to be successful. To make things worse instead of building up her military Spain is building 5 wonder in nearly of her cities. Taking the "lower" path of research (leading to military tradition) is disputable. We need universities ASAP to ensure we are the world tech leaders.

If Spain does not cease to build these wonders, she will be next prey of mighty Greeks, which is sad.

I would not hope for Arabs, since they backward, even more than Greeks.

If we wan't to go straight for Sipahi, I would like not to research chivalry and, possibly, monotheism.

I concur. I hope that the consensus actually *is* to go with Sipahis, but I realize I'm only one vote. Well, 2 with Frrosch. :-)

Lo5

Anar, it takes a *lot* of income in a city to make a university pay off IMO. In a normal game even our libraries (yes, even as scientific) would be debatable, again IMO. (Of course in a normal game, we would be in the process of mercilessly crushing the hapless Spaniards right now. :-D) And we're already the tech leaders. And by the time time to get those universities built is about the time needed to reach Mil Trad and get 1/4 a way into our big giveaway of Greece to Spain, I'd guess. :-)

Spain only needs to be advanced enough to field units that can take down cannon-redlined last defenders. Med infs, which the idiots will probably build in any case, should be enough. We'll want cannons anyway so that we can count defenders. The usual problem of them slowing down our advance doesn't apply because it's not our advance, it's Spain's, and if anything we'll need to slow down to respect their pace. :-) Some Sipahis within spain to take down Greek marauders will certainly be nice, though.

The Spanish and the Greeks are no longer at war right now, so for the moment, they're not really threatened by the Greeks. Or do you think they're itching to re-declare on Spain? Are there any good indicators for that? Tim often has a nose for this kind of stuff -- Tim?

The Great Library is nearing the end of its useful life. If we really want to hurt the Greeks (and ourselves too) we *let* them build it. However, it will take a lot longer than half a turnset for them to complete the one they manually started. :-D It's more an issue as a cascade for any other build they've got going, if they've got any -- do they?

POST-EDIT: The wonder cascades could start hitting really soon. Maybe we should gift Lit to spain if they don't already have it, so that they hopefully get expensive libararies instead of expensive courthourses or worse yet super-expensive temples (as Religious).

Lo5

If Spain does not cease to build these wonders, she will be next prey of mighty Greeks, which is sad.

If nobody minds me poking my nose in, I have a comment: Have you considered Spain winning by Spaceship? For that, Spain doesn't need to be strong, just alive. If the Greeks look like they might destroy Spain - and you cannot stop them - you could try one of two things; 1) If you have enough units, you could get a ROP with Spain, then surround completely the most likely city, and continue to do so as long as necessary, or, 2) In extremis, declare war on Spain yourselves, and try to leave one city surrounded by your territory. If the Greeks defeat the other cities, then it will become the new capital, and free of flip-risk. Then, for the rest of the game, spoon-feed Spain everything they need, while they sit cocooned in your protective bosom.

Maybe you are right and I am too excited with our scientific trait. But according to Bucephalus' comment we can do it another way round. While focused on research, we will defend Spain from any invaders, and once the time is right we'll let them launch their Spaceship. Actually this option seems the most doable for me. In this case we should go straight for education. What do you think about this way of winning the game?

BTW now we should build aqueducts.

I agree with the (implied) idea that we should respect our trait. However, we should also respect our gold input. At the moment, we can raise our beaker income more effectively by investing those shields in other things. E.g. harbors will increase beakers by letting us work more squares and high-gold ones. Aqueducts will let us work more squares. Granaries will let us work more squares (but careful there). Courthouses will bring in beakers. And military units can do awesome things to bring in beakers too, muahaha...

Don't get me wrong, I think half-price uni's are great, but even at half price, they're for quite developed cities. If we beeline for them, we'll have them before being anywhere near that level of development.

Also, we have three advantages -- scientific, industrious, and sipahi. Scientific is just one of them. We've just put a major push into respecting Scientific (via libraries) and Industrious (via workers). Sipahi are cryin' for a little lovin', y'know! :lol:

But yeah, a tiny spain could certainly win the space race -- IF it has a patron making sure Bad Things Happen to anyone who starts to look like they could win instead. To have the kind of power to make Bad Things Happen, we will still need military strength. Like, say, a beeline to sipahis. :-P

OK, that makes the third time I've said "beeline for sipahis!!" in one form or another, so I will now officially shut up. :lol:

Lo5

OK, let's go:

Preturn 170 B.C:
Science down to 60% what saves us 12 gpt (now -17 instead of -29) by only losing 1 turn).
I think I'll build a military during my turnset, and be it only to upgrade it lateron.

Mugla switched from Library to Courthouse, with 1 beaker per turn it won't need a library anytime soon.
Selfishville horseman -> harbour. Will give us a 3 food wale.
Izmit library -> harbour. It has only 1 3fpt and 1 2fpt tiles and the library isn't really worth it yet.

rest seems ok, so I start.

Turn 1 150 BC:
Sword kills barb warrior without loss of HP.
As an irrigation is finished I MM Konya/Guiseppe for +2 gpt without any loss.
Arabia is at war with celtia as well, they conquered on of the 3 cities on the peninsula. Celtia has 4 cities left.
I gift the spanish republic, they are now gracious.

IBT:
Swordsman gets attacked by barb horse, wins without loss of HP
Edrine finishes library, starts aquaeduct
Aydin's border expands
Kafa finishes library, starts catapults.

Turn 2 130 BC:
Sword attacks barb horse, wins, loses 1 HP.
Sword attacks barb horse, wins, loses no HP. No barbs visible any more.
HMS Cheeseburgerbeast spots brown boarder.

IBT:
Greece and Celtia make peace. There were still 2 turns of MA left
Curragh gets attacked by barb ship, wins, promotes (now elite, 5/5 HP)
2 new barbs appear in the north.
Guiseppe finishes horseman, starts a new one.
Bursa finishes library, starts harbour.
Military advisor tells me that it's said that there's a massive barb appearance close to Mugla. Wow, he really tells me news :lol:

Turn 3 110 BC:
Get contact to carthage. They are literature and republic back, as the americans. They got 10 cities, spices and loads of gold (627).
Scince down to 50%, currency still done in 2.
Notice that the greeks are in the Middle Ages. So there will be no need of gifting them there.
I make peace with celtia, also already in the Middle Ages, get currency.
Advance to Middle Ages, get monotheism as free tech. Greece as well got monotheism :(
I gift Spain into the Middle Ages. Give them monotheism for monarchy.

Now, as we got monarchy and no other medieval tech I'm thinking about going for universitys, but decide to go on fuedalism first. I decide to go for 50% science (-15 gpt, 13 turns), financing it by selling a tech to carthage.
Do as said, sell carthago monarchy for 627 gold and sell it to America for 91 gold, because otherwise carthage will do it. We now got 842 gold, so I decide that we can even go 70% science, costing us 32 gpt but fuedalism now done in 10 turns.

IBT:
Carthage asks us to leave their territory.
Spain lands a settler right next to Salonika.
Arabia starts building collossus.
Athens finishes Great library :sad:

Turn 4 90 BC:
nothing much, bit of MMing.

IBT:
Salonika riots :( sorry about this.
Lots of World wonder switching.
Barb turns up close to Mugla.

Turn 5 70 BC:
Establish RoP with Spain. send two workers to their territory.
Hm, don't really know what to do with Salonika. A connection to the lux would solve the problems. I decide to let it starve, when it will grow the next time the harbour will be finished so it shouldn't be a problem.
Sword kills barb.

IBT:
Loads of barbs turn up near Mugla and Salonika.
Salonika starves.
Arabia starts building Statue of Zeus.

Turn 6 50 BC:
All in all there are 16 barb horses an 1 warrior close to our cities in the north. I don't think I can kill them all. It seems like they also killed the spanish settler :(
Move some units to the north, anti-barb.
Second iron is connected.

Take a deep breath and press enter

IBT:
Barb warrior attacks Mugla, looses. horsies ignore Salonica but will attack as soon as I move away the spear.
Jiri Trnka finishes horse, starts spear.
Izmit finishes harbour, starts spear.

Turn 7 30 BC:
spot blue border close to carthage, but can't get contact. I think we have to sail around for something like 5 turns to do so.

ok, now it gets serious. our veteran spear in Mugla has to defeat 4 barb horses.

IBT:
Spear kills all 4 barb horses with only 1 HP lost, get's promoted after second.
The spanish settler wasn't killed, they founded Zaragoza.
4 barb horses move in direction to there.
Guiseppe finishes horse, starts another.
Skoupa finishes worker, starts harbour.
Seville finishes MoM.
Carthage starts pyramides.
Carthage finishes great lighthouse.
Greece starts great wall.
americans start great wall.

Turn 8 10 BC:
Disband curragh close to greek territory, will only cost us.
Kill 2 barb horses by attacking them. 6 left.
road connection to spain is finished. I buy silks for iron and 64 gold. I hoped I could go down to 0 lux but I can't.
Science down to 60%, fuedalism still done in 5 turns.

IBT:
The 4 barb horses that moved towards Zaragoza come back.
Antalya finishes harbour, starts catapults.
Greece starts building colossus.
America starts building hanging gardens.

Turn 9 10 AD:
Nothing much. 6 barb horses will attack Antalya now, there is 1 spear, 1 warrior and 2 horses, all fortified.

IBT:
spear kills 5 horses, get's promoted, warrior kills the last one, doesn't get promoted. our spear is still alive.
The 4 other horses seem to always move to and fro.
Jim Henson finishes worker, starts another.
Germany finishes pyramids.

Turn 10 30 AD:
Nothing much again. A lot of jungle chopping is already done, fuedalism done in 3 turns. There are already 2 workers in spanish territory, that should become more as their tiles are mainly unimproved.

I don't have time for screens any more, so theres only the save today.

Got the save, will play tonight.

Should I play this turn?

PMing Pneuma. If he doesn't post in this thread by late afternoon CET, please play so that I can conveniently *pick up* the save at least. (I only have 'net access at work at the moment, so I'll have to drop back in to drop off the save after I play.)

Lo5

Oh, um. Yeah, sorry.

Playing now.

Sometimes "tonight" means "three days from now, after having to be reminded."

Turn 0: Wake Guiseppe's horse and move it to Kafa. We're in republic, so its doing nothing there.
Giuseppe horseman -> market (it is getting 34 commerce total and is pushing up lux spending alone
Micro in a few more loaves of bread

IBT: Spain moves two archers to our border (probably to deal with barbs near their colony in the north)
Jiri Trnka spear->harbor
Izmit spear -> barracks
5 libyan horses charge toward Mugla
Madrid builds hanging gardens, nothing yet in the cascade

T1 50 AD
Move an elite spear and a 4/5 elite spear to intercept the barbarians in another turn. Move a swordsman to find their camp.
In the proccess of that, I move two horses that I didn't see earlier to the southern border as well as the two new spears.
Another worker moves into spain

IBT: The three horses go... back to the fog?
Kafa catapult->catapult
The two spanish archers fortify.

T2 70
Move the sword to find the barbarian camp, and the two spears to make room for a new plan of attack
The cheeseburgerbeast sees some germany-blue borders in the fog

IBT
Spanish archers move into our lands this time. Since the barbarian horses were in the LOS of that colony both times they moved, I'm almost certain that they mean no harm to us.
Feudalism comes in, start on chivalry
Selfishville harbor->minfantry
The Colossus is built in Chicago (woo), nothing in the cascade.

T3 90
The barbarian hunting spears fortify (on a hill)
After checking to see if we have a ROP with spain, I see that "always renegotiate deals" is on, and turn it off

IBT
All five horses charge and die. A flawless victory closes the epic saga
Bursa harbor->catapult
The great wall built in warshington

T4 110
Move around units in the north to end the barbarian threat by having all tiles visible to us, greece, or spain by 150 AD

IBT
The spanish archers head home
Konya barracks->pike
Kufah builds the SoZ. Maybe they'll be able to stand up to Alex after all. Greece and spain both put the lost shields into Sun Tzu's. Everyone else loses them.

T5 130
Disband 3 regular warriors
Contact with Germany! They're down all four 4th tier ancient age techs

IBT
A worker in spain sees a settler pair moving towards the coast. Probably going for that last city spot in the north.
Edrine aqueduct->catapult

T6 150
Nothing interesting

IBT
Aydin aqueduct->minfantry

T7 170
Lux up to 0.8.2 to make room for Edrine and Bursa.
Three more reg warrior disbands

IBT: Spanish galley leaving the city the settler went into moves north
Edrine catapult->catapult
Izmit barracks->minfantry
Antalya catapult->catapult
Kafa catapult->catapult
(That may look like I'm going crazy with the artillery. But guess how many we have now. Four.)

T8 190
Science down for chivalry's imminent arrival

IBT
Arabia demands currency. I cave to the only nation weaker than us (hahahaha... no. They don't declare)
Bursa catapult->market

T9 210
Nothing of note

IBT
Chivalry invented. Engineering is started on
Giuseppe market ->Minfantry
Edrine catapult->catapult
Selfishville minfantry->minfantry
Jim Henson (You know, he asked my grandmother out when they were in high school. She turned him down.) worker->library
The greeks have chivalry too. They started the knights templar. (The spanish have the tech too, but no progress on the wonder)

T10 230
cmd-s (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84841/LO5_1_230_AD.SAV)cmd-shift-3 (http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/8795/picture1qf6.png) cmd-shift-3 (http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/6636/picture2oq6.png) cmd-q


Our army is shamefully small. I did what I could to start fixing that, but our total army, including fog busters is: 2 warriors, 1 archer, 5 spearmen, 2 swordsmen, 3 horsemen, 6 catapults, and 1 minfantry. And that's only our front line (Kafa) troops. We haven't got anything stationed to deal with anything coming from the water. But since everything is fairly centralized, that shouldn't take much.

0 turn - 230 AD:
I change production in some cities. I am focused on aqueducts and marketplaces. No need for MDI or catapults since we are not about to declare war, moreover we are going to use our superSipahi.

IBT: Alex demands 27 gp. I give in, no point taking a risk for that amount.

1 turn - 240 AD:
I build embassy in Mecca. Celts are down to 4 cities. We need more luxuries to afford faster research.

2 turn - 250 AD:
Spain begins Knights Templar.

3 turn - 260 AD:
We should establish a trade road to Arabs. They have two surplus luxuries and we have technologies that don't. Jiri Trnka harbor-> aqueducts.

4 turn - 270 AD:
nothing.

5 turn - 280 AD:
Greeks are building Sistine Chapel. Seems they took another research path.

6 turn - 290 AD:
Spain is building Sistine Chapel, Celts Sun Tzu's. Greeks are trying to get through our land with settlers, make sure you won't let it happen.

7 turn - 300 AD:
nothing.

8 turn - 310 AD:
nothing.

9 turn - 320 AD:
Antalya library->aqueducts

10 turn - 330 AD:
Giuseppe knight->knight. Engineering due in 3 turns.


http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95852/Lo5_1_330_AD.SAV

If we don't have a decent size army, we won't be able to come to Isabella's defense if Alex decides to expand south.

We agreed that we want to use Sipahi in our warfare so we need to produce horsemen and knights.

Btw I prefer building aqueducts and marketplaces in productive cities before I start producing military.

Got it. Tomorrow morning CET...

Disappointed with the choice to study Chivalry (no real benefit, yet delays MilTrad), but no use crying over spilled milk.

Lo5

Ah, sorry about that. I was under the impression that we were going to help spain beat up greece a little in the immediate future, and not wait until Sipahi.

Couldn't play yesterday, won't be able to today, either. Please skip me, Frrosch.

Pneuma -- no problem, let's move on and win this!

Lo5

got it, will play this afternoon or evening

Got the save, will play tonight.

Thanks for giving me and TimBentley three hours to get the save before you skipped us. And without telling us.

Next time, please don't consider me absent because I haven't been posting much. I know I've been quiet recently but I have been here, just haven't had much to say. I just realized the order seemed a bit out of whack (Lo5 -> Frrosch -> Pneuma -> Anar -> Lo5?), and I double-checked the roster and realized you skipped me and Tim.

Next time, please don't skip me without waiting the full 24 hours.

Thanks.

Good, let's see how we do:

Preturn 330 AD:
Lux- and Science slider is ok, I do some micro-management to avoid wasting shields in Izmit.
Switch Jim Hensen from library to courthouse as it isn't producing any beakers atm.

Ok, let's go now:

IBT:
Carthage asks me out of their territory.
Edrine finishes market, starts barracks.
Izmit finishes Aqueduct, starts library.

Turn 1 340 AD:
MM back to Izmit doing 10spt.
Worker spots a greek hoplite/settler pair in spanish territory.

IBT:
Antalyas borders expand.
Mugla finishes Courthouse, starts barracks.
Our people improve our palace.
America starts building Sun Tzus

Turn 2 350 AD:
Science down to 30%, Engineering is finished next turn.

IBT:
Engineering finishes, start Invention
Selfishville finishes market, starts knight.
Aydyn's borders expand.
Konya finishes market, starts knight.
Carthage starts building Sun Tzus.

Turn 3 360 AD:
Science back to 40%, Invention is done in 14 turns at +10gpt.
Buy theology and 13 gold for Engineering from our puppet.
Greece and Spain already got Education, but I can't buy it. That means, anyway, that the GL is worthless.

Turn 4 370 AD:
Nothing important.

IBT:
Izmit finishes library, starts Trebuchet.
Aydin finishes market, starts Trebuchet.

Turn 5 380 AD:
I buy Education from the Greek for Engineering, 102 gold and 11 gpt. We're still doing +1 gpt.
Now we're the most advanced civ together with greece and spain, all others are in the beginning of the Middle Ages, except Germany, they are still in the AA.

IBT:
Edrine finishes barracks, starts Trebuchet.

Turn 6 390 AD:
only MMing and moving workers.

IBT:
Bursa finishes market, starts barracks and expands.
Germany enters MA.

Turn 7 400 AD:
Still nothing to do.

IBT:
Spanish worker enters our territory, probably to move towards the spanish cities north of us.
Guiseppe finishes knight, starts another one.
Izmit finishes Treb, starts knight, expands.
Seville finishes... oh, damn, don't know the english name. Knights of the Temple? Templar Knights? Dunno, hope you know what I mean. Now they are "only" building 2 wonders, Sun Tzus and Michelangelos.
Greece starts building Michelangelos.

Turn 8 410 AD:
guess what? Nothing to do again.

IBT:
Edrine finishes Trebuchet, starts another one.

Turn 9 420 AD:
Worker moving, MMing, that's it.

IBT:
Aydin finishes Treb, starts harbour.
Toledo finishes Sun Tzus.
Greek starts Michelangelos.

Turn 10 430 AD:
zzz

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4093/overview3nr0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The greek settler pairs have dissapeared for the moment but you should still take care of blocking them if they come back.
The only thing to do atm is choosing buildings, MMing and wating for Sipahis.
You could import luxuries from Arabia, dunno how much it would cost, you can check this out.

I'll be out of town and unable to until friday, so skip me if it gets to my turn.

More likely pneuma just was mistaken regarding the order, so I'll post it as a reminder:

TheLoneMan - up
TimBentley - on deck
Pneuma
Anar
Lo5
Frrosch - just played

Knights Templar bodes well for Spain militarily. The fog-busters up north don't need to bust fog anymore.

OK I am HERE, am not going to say "got it" because I haven't dl'd the save yet, but I'll be playing within 48 hours.

Now you should know why you were skipped ;P

Wow, guys, I'm so sorry.

I'm going to have to be skipped. My mom's liver cancer just intensified and I've been in the hospital for the past two days.

Really sorry this happened, right after I made such a big deal about getting skipped.

Hopefully her health will improve soon and I can be back in it.

Got it. I should play tonight.

430(0): Interesting: Spanish workers in Ottoman land and Ottoman workers in Spain
move the former fog-busters to more useful places
Switch Edrine from treb to knight: do we want our sipahi to wait on trebs/cannons?
switch Selfishville to aqueduct
extra shield in Kafa
switch taxman to scientist
sell monotheism to Arabia for ivory, furs, 6g, allowing 10% lux

IBT: Selfishville loves me
Kafa aqueduct->market

440(1): Spain knows astronomy

IBT: America demands chivalry, some WH can't hurt, and they can't reach us, so refuse, they declare
Bursa rax->worker (it has more food than it needs)
Aydin loves me
Mugla rax->knight

450(2): switch Izmit to market

IBT: Jiri Trnka aqueduct->market
Konya knight->knight
Spain starts Copernicus

460(3): Greece knows astronomy

IBT: learn invention, start on gunpowder
sell invention to Spain for astronomy, 1g
Bursa worker->university

470(4): switch 3 cities to universities
Interesting: German archers fortified in American land because they're trapped due to New Orleans

IBT: Selfishville aqueduct->university
Spain starts Leo's
Greece starts Copernicus

480(5): zzz

IBT: Skoupa aqueduct->market

490(6): zzz

IBT: Edrine university->knight

500(7): zzz

IBT: Giuseppe university->knight
Antalya aqueduct->market

510(8): zzz

IBT: Greece starts Leo's
America starts Sistine

520(9): Spain knows gunpowder, they want a lot for it

IBT: Izmit market->university
Aydin harbor->university

530(10): sell engineering to Celts for 2 workers, 39g

Notes: could buy gunpowder from Spain for 30gpt, 289g, or after one more turn of research buy it for all gold and a couple gpt (the former would be better for Spain, the latter better for us)
America would buy invention or education (I'd suggest invention, since they're probably researching it) for peace, 96g, 27gpt, but that would cause 10% lux to be required (20gpt)

Okay, I'm back in town after a small delay. Sorry about skipping a few people a while back. I guess I've demonstrated that I'm more than a little forgetfull. It won't happen again.

Playing now (no, really)




edit: Open up itunes, wait for it to load, choose some good civ 3 music, open up civ 3, wait for that to load, "okay nooma*, focus this time," skip the intro, start a new game, realise that is not what I was about to do, close new game screen, open save folder, open SG folder, open Lo5 1 folder, aaannnd... I forgot to get the save, which doesn't exist. Will check this again some point later today.







*not my real name

I forgot to get the save, which doesn't exist.
Now it exists.

T0 530 AD
Turn science down to 3.7.0 (still getting gunpowder in 2 turns)
Decide not to make peace with america since they won't cross the channel until astronomy, and we've made contact with everyone so losing the Cheeseburgerbeast won't be a major loss.

IBT
The cheeseburgerbeast beats an vet american galley but is redlined, and there is another one turn away.
Isabella asks for 33 gold and doesn't get it (no war, still polite)

T1 540
With our victory during the IBT, America will make peace for 40g. Since next turn the price will be higher, I agree.

IBT
Gunpowder in, start chemistry (8 turns losing 42gpt)
Edrine knight>knight

T2 550
There is saltpeter on a mountain outside Konya, and in the desert outside Salonika (not in our borders yet)

T3 560
Nothing

IBT
Bursa university>knight

T4 570
Nothing

IBT Giuseppe knight->knight

T5 580
Send 3 knights to Jiri Trnka so they can chase after boats

IBT
Konya university>granary

T6 590
Our economy is successfully destroyed. Science down to 4.5.1 so we don't go bankrupt (1 more turn for chem, we need to save up for upgrades from now on)

IBT
Alex "asks" for 20g and declares when I say no. 2 swords move towards Kafa, an archer goes after our spanish workers.
Edrine knight>knight

T7 600
Kill 2 greek swords with horses (2-0)
Bring Mugla's e-spear towards Rhodes (the colony)
3 trebs, 1 cat, 1 horse, 2 knights, 2 spears, and 1 sword moves into the forest next to Pharsalos, Greece's only known source of horses
Spain declares on Alex for 48g and 17gpt (they also have navigation) and become gracious

IBT
Spanish crusader defeats unknown greek soldier, becomes elite
Selfishville university->knight

T8 610
Bombardment reveals 3 regular hoplites in Pharsalos.
1 knight 1 archer 1 sword and 1 spear march on Rhodes
Kill all 3 hoplites in Pharsalos with no loss (5-0), keep it and immediately regret it as all 11 citizens are resisters.
Kill 1 sword and 1 hoplite outside Kafa (7-0), no one dies and a minfantry gets promoted to elite

T9 620
Turn all 4 newly-content citizens in Pharsalos into entertainers to start starving the city
The army rests

IBT
Bursa knight>knight
Lose ivory, furs

T10 630
Horses+7gpt for furs, ivory (arabia)
Knight retreats from Rhodes, the rest of the expedition moves to protect it
The eastern army marches on Greece


I know that we were planning to wait for Sipahi before declaring war, but if we have a good army and an ally with a good army, I'm not pushing an upstart a tiny bit further on the path to becoming a runaway AI.

Greece's only known sources of saltpeter (unconnected AFAIK, I sent a horse to make sure) and iron are close to the front. We'll probably have to send in a settler for the saltpeter unless we want to take athens too, which I don't think we can manage.

5 horses on our island are known, so I doubt there is another in Greece (2 in our homeland, 2 in spain, 1 in our new aquisition). Same deal with the iron ( 3 in our homeland, 1 in greece, 1 in arabia). Unfortunately, we only know where 3 piles of saltpeter are on our island, so the greeks may have another.



http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84841/Lo5_1_630_AD.SAV

0 turn - 630 AD:
Managing workers in Spanish territory.

1 turn - 640 AD:
Rhodes captured. Our troops closing to Knossos. I gave Spain wines for WM and 50gp.

IBT: greek longbow loses to our knight; hoplite and archer killed by crusaders;

2 turn - 650 AD:
Izmit university->knight; Kafa marketplace->courthouse; Mugla knight->knight; 3 swords killed by our SoD.

IBT: elite swords loses to our knight

3 turn - 660 AD:
Jiri marketplace->library; Spain is building Bach's cathedral; Generally we have to cut off any reinforcement coming from Greek core and Spain should be fine.

IBT: Spain captures Argos;

4 turn - 670 AD:
Pharsalos worker->worker; Knossos captured;

5 turn - 680 AD:
I want to position troops near Sparta to weaken the defense and kill any marauders. Now Greece consist of two parts, northern with their capital and southern comprising 4 cities. Spain should be able to capture southern part with ease and with northern part we will give them a hand.

IBT: Our worker was captured thanks to my carelessness, but I think eventually it went into Spanish hands. Knight loses to our knight.

6 turn - 690 AD:
Giuseppe knight->knight; Bursa knight->knight; Hoplite is killed in out territory;

IBT: Minor skirmishes;

7 turn - 700 AD:
Edrine knight->knight; Aydin university->knight; Jim Henson courthous->aqueduct; Skoupa marketplace->harbor; I spot connected saltpeter in Greece. It should be pillaged in next turn.

8 turn - 710 AD:
Selfishville knight->knight. Spain completes Leo's.

9 turn - 720 AD:
Pharsalos worker->courthouse;

10 turn - 730 AD;
moving workers



http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95852/Lo5_1_730_AD.SAV

Got it.

I'm mildly considering exiting the game over time, because I took on an exciting, fun, difficult, long-term project (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.misc/msg/4d0676b75dea067c) last week and I'm not sure if I can serve two masters. However, I promise that

1) I won't just disappear without a trace
2) I won't leave at all if the consensus is "man, that would just suck."
3) I'll find a replacement for myself first if I do leave.

Anyway: got it.

Lo5

Keeee-rap.

Frrsosch, skip me. :blush:

Lo5

frrosch hasn't been online since the 19th; TheLoneMan would be up.

sorry, is was in Ukraine for something like 10 days now, I thought I posted here before. Anyways, I won't find the time to play 'till Wednesday so please skip me.

I'll be out until Tuesday. Hopefully frrosch can play now. TheLoneMan hasn't been online since 9/24.

Since the roster is fairly empty

(Lo5 - Skipped
Frrosch - Last online 10/6
TheLoneMan - Last online 9/24
TimBentley - Skipped
Pneuma
Anar - Just played)

I'm going to play the game now, since I won't have time to check on this thread until (maybe) tomorrow. I'm sorry to hear about your mother, TLM. Waiting in the hospital for days, thinking that someone close to you might not leave is pretty ****ing terrible.

T0 730 AD
The diplo window shows that Greece has no saltpeter or horses
Artillery shows Sparta has two hoplites
Take Sparta at the cost of 1 knight (2-1)
Since I have no idea whether or not culture flipping is on, I change all four Greek cities to workers and start to starve them
Hoping Spain has Arabia’s territory map, I trade chem for their WM+banking+80g+1gpt, and end up getting information on some coasts.
Sci up to 4.6.0 (+14gpt)

IBT
Giuseppe knight>knight
Jiri Trnka library>wealth (it gets 5spt at most, so I’d rather use it as a commerce farm and leave its hills to Izmit and Antalya)
Knossos worker (greek)>worker
Knoya knight>knight, readjust its pop to focus on food
Rhodes worker (greek)>library (down to size 1)

T1 740
Army marches on Athens

IBT
Armies move
Edrine knight>knight
Bursa knight>knight

T2 750
Kill a LB, knight, and minfantry, killing one of ours and injuring three knights and a horse (5-2)
Athens has at least one vet musket

IBT
Pharsalos worker (greek)>library
Antalya library>courthouse
Athens completes Copernicus’ Observatory. Exquisite.

T3 760
Bombardment of Athens reveals 1 vet musket, 2 reg muskets
Lose 5 knights and 1 horse, but take the city (and with it, the obsolete Great Library and Temple of Artemis, and the brand new Copernicus’ Observatory) (8-8)
Upgrade 2 horses in Athens (to heal them)
Will have to wait in Athens for reinforcements/sipahi before continuing

IBT
Kafa courthouse>harbor

T4 770
Kill a greek LB near Athens (9-8)


IBT
Salonika aqueduct>library

T5 780
WH from Greece is gone, lux up to 4.5.1 (25gpt tech in 3)

IBT
Celts come to us, offering peace? I didn’t even know they were at war with us, so I take it and 40 of their gold
Knossos worker (greek)>library
Mugla knight>library
WTLK day in many cities, and I get to expand our palace. Apparently nobody liked that war.

T6 790
Henson aqueduct>library
Army marches on Thermopylae

T7 800
Mil trad comes in next turn, and our alliance with Spain has expired, so to save time I send the knights in against Thermopylae’s regular hoplites without artillery support. One knight is redlined and we kill 2 hoplites and 1 LB with no deaths on our side, taking a catapult and promoting a knight in the process (12-8)
The unused artillery and knights march on Mycenae because I forgot that which I previously stated: Sipahi next turn

IBT
Hells yeah. Military tradition comes in, and I set research on physics
Henson library>aqueduct
Greek musket leaves Mycenae and enters our territory. Durrrr me Awexander me wike candy.

T8 810
Research kept low at 6.3.1 so we can upgrade 1 knight per turn (7 veterans and an elite left)
Athens will flip soon if we don’t do something about it. So I move the whole army there to end the resistance and forgo artillery support, attacking Mycenae. Luckily, both hoplites there die, only retreating one knight (14-8)

IBT
America demands banking, I tell him where to stick his hat. He meekly complies with my command and doesn’t declare war.
Arabian SoD emerges from the jungles of northern Greece, the only things south of them now are us and Spain.
Skoupa harbor>library

T9 820
Make an alliance with Arabia against Greece for 21gpt. If they do indeed reroute the SoD approaching Mycenae, then Greece is boned. If they don’t then we only have to deal with the one wave and at worst lose Mycenae. If they were headed for Spain, then I wasted 420 gold.
Kill a redlined Greek musket with a fresh sipahi and the golden years begin.
3 sipahi move into position to attack Delphi next turn
Our work fixing spain’s worker troubles is done, so workers head to improve Ottoman Greece.

IBT
Crap, Arabia’s stacks move into Mycenae.

T10 830
Tell them to move, and they declare. Stop here to discuss what to do now.

We are badly outnumbered and the Arabs have the terrain advantage, but we are fighting ancient age units with the finest attacker of the middle game and the remains of Greece should soak up later waves.

My personal plan of attack would be to raze Delphi (so Athens has less chance of flip), move everything we have to Athens with a small garrison in Thermopylae (upgrade the artillery) and abandon Mycenae, so we can be fighting them on grasslands instead of jungles, and interrupting one of two roads from Arabia to Ottoman Greece, and rush a couple muskets in Athens. Maybe make peace with Greece after burning Delphi.

In other news, Spain has made no apparent progress in southern Greece and we will have to help them. Greece has been effectively castrated and now owns mostly marsh, jungle and coast. Delphi is their last decent city.


http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3898/picture1ob2.jpg
Arabian Stack 1: 2 4/4 ancient cavalry, 2 5/5 ancient cavalry, 4 3/3 archers
Arabian Stack 2: 6 4/4 ancient cavalry, 1 5/5 ancient cavalry, 1 4/4 archer, 2 5/5 archers, 1 3/3 archer, 1 3/3 spearman
Ottoman Stack 1: 1 1/4 knight, 1 3/4 siphahi, Mycenae (resistors, no barracks)
Ottoman Stack 2: 3 catapult, 1 trebuchet
Ottoman Stack 3: 1 2/4 sipahi, 1 4/4 sipahi
Ottoman Stack 4: 2 4/4 sipahi
Ottoman Stack 5: 1 5/5 knight, Thermopylae (resistors, no barracks)
Ottoman Stack 6: 4 catapults, 2 4/4 sipahi, 1 3/3 spearman, 2 trebuchets, Athens (no resistors, barracks)
Ottoman Stack 7: 2 4/4 Sipahi
Ottoman Stack 8: 1 4/4 Spearman, 1 4/4 Swordsman, Sparta (no resistors, no barracks)

Totals:
Arabia: 8 regular ancient cavalry, 3 veteran ancient cavalry, 5 regular archers, 1 veteran archer, 2 elite archers, 1 regular spearman
Ottomans: 1 veteran knight, 1 elite knight, 9 veteran sipahi, 7 catapults, 3 trebuchets, 1 regular spearman, 1 veteran spearman, 1 veteran swordsman


http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84841/Lo5_1_830_AD.SAV

Anar hasn't been on since 9/25 (he could be lurking, I guess, but this would be a long wait for him), but frrosch has been on recently.

sorry guys, but I still don't find the time to play. Please skip me again. I hope it'll be better next week, but I can't even guarantee that.

Indeed I have been lurking. I am checking the topic everyday. I thought it's LawofFives turn now. Last turn he wanted to be skipped, and I figured out it was not permanent skip, but only for the last turn. In this case I will deliver the save in 4 hours or so.

Unfortunately my Civ3Conquests doesn't work for some reason. When I am starting the game it throws an error. I will try to fix ASAP, but for now feel free to skip me. If I happen to be quicker than next person in roster I'll post the save.

Lo5 and TheLoneMan still haven't been on and frrosch posted inavailability above, so I got it.

Wow, almost 2 weeks without a set played (some of it my fault, I know)

830(0): sell metallurgy to Spain for navigation, 360g, 92gpt
sell education to Celts for WM, 103g
sell banking to America for printing press, music theory, WM, 2g
sell TM to Carthage for WM
sell WM to Germany for 14gpt, WM
sell WM to Spain for WM, 8g
upgrade 4 knights
kill 2 hoplites to raze Delphi
Give Mycenae to Spain
some MM

840(1): lose 2 sipahi killing 6 ACs
entire army basically is upgraded other than some stuff that isn't worth the effort

850(2): zzz

860(3): switch Giuseppe to Bach's as Newton prebuild
Verulamium defended by 2/5 hoplite

IBT: Arabia and Greece fight
Celts, Spain sign MA against Greece
learn physics, start on ToG

870(4): sell physics, WM to Spain for WM, 134gpt, 462g
capture Verulamium
there's 8 Arabian archers by Verulamium, so gift it to Spain

880(5): Spanish pikes in the way

890(6): somebody razed a Greek city and Spain captured Corinth, so there's Lugdunum in the north and three tundra cities in the south

IBT: Salamanca built Sistine
others switch to Bach's and/or Magellan

900(7): zzz

IBT: learn ToG, start on magnetism

910(8): capture Lugdunum
sell astronomy to Celts for WM, 4gpt, 10g, 3 Greek workers
cancel MA with Spain; sign peace with Greece, get Ephesus, Eretria, 4g, WM
a corrupt tundra city is pretty useless, so probably those two cities should be gifted to Spain soon
oops, reg sipahi was created

IBT: Ansar warriors kill 2 sipahi

920(9): zzz

IBT: lose another sipahi

930(10): zzz

Notes: I'd suggest holding on to ToG until Newton's is finished or Magellan's and Bach are both built (to avoid cascade)
Economics is available if you want it (military tradition for it from America)
We could sign a RoP with Celts for easier attacking of Arabia, or we could declare war on Celts in 5 turns
Probably should gift Ephesus and Eretria to Greece now

The roster:

Pneuma - up
Anar - on deck
Lo5
Frrosch
TheLoneMan
TimBentley - just played

T0 930
Made embassies with everyone else (celts have no iron and no horses, and Washington will get JS Bach's in 2 turns (Entremont gets it in 4))

IBT
Spain finishes off Greece
Aydin Sipahi>sipahi
Spain has econ, starts Smith's

T1 940
Rop, MA against Arabia with celts
Raze Camlodunum, no losses (high Arabian AND celtic culture, AND far away from the palace? No thanks)
Take Alesia because it has three sources of ivory in its radius

IBT
Ansar kills a sipahi
Magnetism comes in (Nationalism is free tech), set research to steam power>industrialism (6 turns)
Washington builds JS Bachs

t2 950
Rush settler in athens (to get more gems)

IBT
Athens settler>library
Bursa sipahi>sipahi
Skoupa uni>barracks
Arabs build Magellans in Najran, which is 2 tiles away from Alesia
Spanish/Americans start smith' (with JS Bach/Magellan's overflow)

T3 960
Najran, Basra fall, one loss (keep both)

IBT
Arabs kill 1 sipahi, lose an ansar
Henson aqueduct>market
Edrine, Kafa sipahi>sipahi

T4 970
Take Baghdad (and Arabia's only connected local source of iron!)
America: alliance v arabs for alliance v arabs + ivory + wines +3gpt, this will stop their source of horses and ensure they get no iron

IBT
Sneaky celts take our city spot at the gems
Selfishville sipahi>sipahi
Kafa uni>barracks
Arabs kill 1 sipahi

T5 980
Burn mecca, lose 1 sipahi

T6 990
Take Medina, Arabia is essentially boned at this point

IBT
Giuseppe newtons>sipahi
Arabia resettles near mecca's ruins
Izmit sipahi>sipahi
Antalya uni>barracks
Skoupa barracks>sipahi

T7 1000
Take Kafah and autoraze Yamama

IBT
Steam power! (5 to industry)
Edrine sipahi>sipahi

T8 1010
Switch izmit to the iron works
Start work on a trans-continental railroad

IBT
Arabs lose 2 LBs
Bursa, Konya sipahi>sipahi
Mugla sipahi>market

T9 1020
Take Khurasan, Damascus, and Anjar, the last three arabian cities on the mainland
(Stop here because it seems like a nice place to stop, and I really have to go)
Maybe rush some galleons to finish of the Arabs. After that, the Celts don't even have pikemen, but we have a rop with them because I didn't think to connect it and the MA.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84841/LO5_1_1020_AD.SAV


(Thanks for the roster, Tim)

Is Anar's C3C working yet? Are Lo5, frrosch, or TheLoneMan able to play?

I could play a set either today, tomorrow or wednesday. Afterwards I'm in Italy for a few days and when I'm back home school starts again. (Means I won't find time to play again after wednesday)

It's after Wednesday, so probably I'll end up playing it tomorrow. If any of the four people I mentioned can play, go ahead and say so.

Got it; playing now.

I think I spent most of the time building railroads.

1020(0): buy spices from Carthage for furs, ivory, 13gpt
allows 0% lux
some MM

IBT: GA ended

1030-1050(1-3): zzz

IBT: Kufah flips

1060(4): recapture Kufah

IBT: learn industrialization, start on electricity

1070(5): found Urfa and Bingol
start a few factories
sell steam power to Spain for 261gpt, 88g, WM
gift them coal

1080-1100(6-8): zzz

IBT: Carthage starts Shakespeare's; they've entered the industrial age

1110-1120(9-10): zzz

Notes: faster workers would be nice, so RP next sounds good
Deals with Celts end in 2 turns; hopefully we should be able to conquer them in 2 turns
last MA against Arabs ends in 5 turns, I see no reason to continue the war (their two cities won't add much)
Unfortunately, it seems that pneuma is the only other one around

Losing by space would be boring, so I suggest we lose by domination. This would imply cleansing the other continent of all other civilizations. We'd probably have to abandon some of our cities on our continent as well.

I'm swamped with work this weekend, so don't look to me any time before thursday.

I guess its still my turn.

T0 1120
Some micro, prepare for a lightning strike on Celts

T1 1130
Focus workers on a railroad, not improving land

IBT
Electricity>rep parts

T2 1140
nothing

T3 1150
Declare on celts (no ROP rape)
America has been supplying them with iron. For reasons which in retrospect can only be described as overestimation, block that off with a MA for furs + 8gpt.
Take Richborough, Eboracum, Entremont, Burdigala, and Agedinicum (losing 2 sipahi, a warrior, and an archer, but get a leader, finally)

IBT
Renegotiate rop with spain to add 4gpt to our pockets
Start heroic epic in Giuseppe

T4 1160
Take Augustodunum, no losses

IBT
Renegotiate iron/silk deal with spain to add 20 gpt
Lose an elite sipahi

T5 1170
Gergovia falls (1 loss) and the celts are out of the game
Rush 2 galleons with which to finish off the Arabs
Start making galleons in the core so we can go kick ass on the western continent

T6/7 1180/90
Nothing

IBT
RP>medicine (four sources of rubber, 2 connected)

T8 1200
Fustat, Aden fall with no losses, the Arabs are finished

IBT
Heroic epic built

T9 1210
Nothing

IBT
Spain ROP rapes us and takes athens, Kafa, Jim Henson, Skoupa, burns one of those worthless tundra cities we had near spanish land
Riots in Giussepe, scroll ahead to prevent more

T10 1220
Take back all the aforementioned cities, kill all spanish troops I can see, and stop half a turn early for discussion

Personally, I would advocate taking everything spain has, save one city, which we will then surround with our own troops to prevent them from being finished off and to prevent them from leaving, although this is boring and removes all the challenge from the variant. At very least, we should take the cities not in Spain proper, especially Mycenae and Verulanium.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84841/LO5_1_1220_AD.SAV

Tim, you there?

Give Mycenae to Spain

there's 8 Arabian archers by Verulamium, so gift it to Spain
...
so probably those two cities should be gifted to Spain soon
Um... Tim? Can I point something out? :p

Looks like there's a consensus for all victories open, NO CITY GIFTING, and the more I think about that approach the more I like it, so let's go with that.

BTW, ppl, you DO remember that Spain is supposed to win, right? Oh, and I hope this thread doesn't die.

I must have missed your earlier post. Got it.

@choxorn: Oops. It didn't make a big difference though, so I'll just have to take them back.

So- just how are you guys going to get OCC Spain to win? I have an idea, but I'm not telling. :D

I think we should go for space race (and ignore my previous idea). Everything else is just like winning a regular game, except we give everything to spain at the end.

Are you sure they'll build the SS parts? I have a better idea that is foolproof. You can build the UN, can't you?

1220(0): First of all let's correct my mistake
lose sipahi capturing Verulamium
capture Mycenae without loss
take out another rifle
make sure cities are adequately protected
10% lux, some MM
abandon Eretria to avoid WW

IBT: renegogiate spice deal with Carthage: give furs, ivory, 20gpt
America, Spain sign embargo against us
lose 3 sipahi and a few workers 2 were protecting

1230(1): now there's WW, lux to 20%
do a few upgrades
kill some Spainards, recapture workers
capture Pamplona, capture Zaragoza losing one sipahi

IBT: Carthage, Spain sign MA against us
we lose spices, so riots abound (or rather one, and several that are fixed)

1240(2): lux to 30%
lose sipahi autorazing Vitoria
kill a couple of crusaders

IBT: learn medicine, start on scientific method

1250(3): kill a conquistador

IBT: Germany, Carthage sign embargo against us

1255(4): get 83g from Spain for peace
lux to 10%

IBT: Spain starts Shakespeare, Universal Suffrage
Germany starts Shakespeare

1260(5): zzz

IBT: Carthage drops off 4 units by Aden (old Arab island

1265(6): kill 2 Carthaginian units, abandon Aden; Fustat should be savable

IBT: One of Carthage's units dies, they drop off a longbowman on main continent

1270(7): kill 2 Carthaginians
Now I've got a frigate, so an invasion will head off next turn; killed a galley

IBT: learn scientific method, start on corporation

1275(8): troops start towards Carthage

1280(9): zzz

1285(10): found Riza

Notes: Edrine is a prebuild for Hoover
I've left the landing locations for you to decide; the spices will be nice to get
Carthage has a little more than half our culture, so capturing should be safe

Wow... sorry for dying out on you guys for a few months!

My mother's cancer broke out in the kidney, and it's been a rough time (again).

She's improved, and I would love to join back in, but I can't possibly hope to catch up with all that's happened during my (prolonged) absence.

I guess I'll just be lurking.

Cheers!

No activity from pneuma since November. You can jump back in if you want, TheLoneMan. Choxorn or whomever else can join if they want, too. The situation: we've conquered all of our continent except Spain, and are prepared to launch an invasion of Carthage, which can continue to other civilizations. I think losing by domination would be cool, so in that case we would wipe the other civs out and leave most of the land for Spain to settle, abandoning some cities on the home continent. Losing by space would be my next favorite choice, which would imply fast research (i.e. ICSing other continent).

Losing by UN would be much, much, much, easier. It's simple, Just a few steps:
1. Kill every civ but spain.
2. Build UN.
3. Hold Elections.
4. You and Spain will be the only civs. Spain, will of course, vote for themselves. If you vote for them, too, Spain wins by Diplo Victory.
Even Easier is conquest:
1. Kill Every civ but Spain.
2. Abandon All cities and units. Spain wins.
However, that is kind of cheating. However, Culture is almost impossible, and I don't see how Spain will get convinced to build enough cities to achieve domination, or build all the SS parts. Do whatever you want. I guess you could try getting them to do Dom, SS, or Culture, for a more fulfilling victory, and use Conquest/Diplo as a backup plan if that doesn't work.
PS: I would join, if it weren't for 2 problems:
1. I have waaayyyyy to much homework.
and 2. THE FREAKIN WONT READ DISC BUG!!!!!!!!! GRAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I'll do a turnset... does anybody want to take one after me?

I'm on turn 7... so far: 2 MGL's and 5 cities taken.

Turn 1: Move Boats.

IBT: Zzz.

Turn 2: Athens finishes Library, to Factory. Damascus finishes Library, to Worker. Antalya produces Sipahi, to Sipahi. MM Aydin and Basra to prevent riot next turn. Clear some pollution. 1350 gold, World Map, and all our Techs to Spain for Fascism, Democracy, Free Artistry, and Economics. Move boats again, unload all our units next to Hippo. Build some railroads.

IBT: Zzz.

Turn 2: Rinse, wash, and repeat all the domestic issues. Bombard Hippo and Oea, they are extremely lightly defended. Take Hippo, no casualties, and take Oea, no casualties, but a retreat against a redlined spearman =P.

IBT: Defend our artillery stack with a lone Sipahi? Bad decision in retrospect, but the Sipahi wins.

Turn 3: More domestic stuff. Take Leptis Magna, one Sipahi casualty

The plan is to take Carthage and then fan out from there. I'm going to send our next army East to get the two small cities that-a-way.

IBT: Our city on the small island NE of our main continent is being threatened by two knights and an MDI.

Turn 4: Send out the two Sipahi's and kill both knights, then retreat back into the citiy. I also join the workers, because the entire island has been fully improved. Fish for an MGL in the hills north of Leptis Magna and finally get one. Fortify all my troops within Leptis Magna. I'm going to wait for the artillery to catch up and our troops to rest before pushing on to Carthage.

IBT: Zzz.

Turn 5: Lux to 20. Domestic work. Move all units one square west of Leptis Magna, leaving the army behind to defend (the army can reach Carthage in 3 moves, so it will still be available for the attack).

IBT: The Americans and the Germans seem to be fighting a war through our newly conquered territory. Perhaps we could sell them an RoP? The remaining MDI attacks our city on the small island and wins. We still have one Sipahi left.

Turn 6: I sell the Germans an RoP for the entirety of their treasury (32 gold! Woohoo!), and the Americans one for the entirety of theirs (3 gold...?). If anything, this will just encourage fighting and thus weaken both of them. Domestic work. Artillery is now in range of Carthage. We attack next turn.

IBT: One Sipahi lost.Isabella wants an MPP, an RoP, and 5 gold per turn. I tell her to sod off.

Turn 7: Guiseppe completes Theory of Evolution. We discover Communism. I begin a revolution. Carthage gets bombarded, attack with several Sipahi's; the army is in range if it is needed. One redlined Sipahi, one Veteran promoted to Elite, and Carthage is taken. I fortify it with all of our Sipahi's; Infantry and Artillery will come next turn. More Domestic work; I'm chopping jungles and clearing wetlands in the easter arm of our empire, hopefully the next player can found some cities there. Clear out some attackers around Leptis Magna.

IBT: One Sipahi redlined by an attacking rifleman.

Turn 8: Move artillery stack out of Carthagian territory. They will arrive in Carthage next turn.

IBT: Zzz.

Turn 9: I've been fishing for an MGL, and... got one. Take Hadrumetum with a Sipahi army. We have three armies now... one more MGL to rush Pent. Attack an MDI outside of Fustat, victorious. There's one longbowman left.

IBT: German-American war is consuming lots of troops from both sides, their forces are flying through our territory in large numbers (was I right?). Longbowman attacks Fustat, our Sipahi is victorious.

Turn 10: Take out some Carthagian roads outside of Carthage. Set Giuseppe to Pent for when Anarchy's over. clear some more jungle, do some more things, and that's that.

Now, we should split up our armies. We need to get a guerilla or two up in Leptis Magna to free up the army that's currently defending it. After that, we should split the forces in two and strike out from Carthage. The third army to the East of Hippo should be enough to take the second Carthagian city to the east. After that, we should load up some Galleons off the mainland with Sipahi's and clear out the other Carthagian cities; either that or make peace. Now we have to decide who our next target will be.

Cheers!

P.S. By the way, Edrine can't build Hoover, so I made a Military Academy instead.

P.P.S. Save incoming! posted!

Looks like it's still a two-person team. Got it. I'll head for espionage after refining for the SPHQ (Konya looks good, perhaps). I should have mentioned I was intending to get atomic theory and electronics from ToE, but no big deal.

1335(0): some mm, start some courts and police stations
kill 3 rifles, NuMerc in Utica

IBT: Germany, America sign peace
trade embargo between Spain, America ends

1340(1): kill rifle, longbowman to capture Utica; we get spices
found Zonguldak

IBT: Spain, Carthage sign embargo against us
Germany starts Shakespeare's

1345(2): zzz

1350(3): kill 2 rifles to capture Leptis Minor

IBT: Trade embargo between Carthage, Germany ends

1355(4): zzz

IBT: We're communist

1360(5): lux to 10% (with more MP, it could be 0%)
Pharsalos shall build the SPHQ: it's got good production and income

1365(6): found Kirklareli
kill rifle, 2 NuMercs to capture Sabratha

1370(7): kill 2 rifles in Theveste

1375(8): kill 3 rifles to capture Theveste
kill rifle in Cadiz

1380(9): kill NuMerc to capture Cadiz, eliminating Carthaginian presence on that continent

IBT: Corinth builds Shakespeare's

1385(10): merge some workers

Notes: Pharsalos is prebuilding for SPHQ
You should probably buy espionage from Spain
Combustion->flight would be a good tech path
Some police station builds may not be necessary and can be switched to sipahi

Great, I'll play it soon.

Any chance for a screenie?

Sure, there's plenty of screenies. One in post 163, for example. ;) And here's a picture that needs more orange or cyan.

Sure, there's plenty of screenies. One in post 163, for example. And here's a picture that needs more orange or cyan.
I know there's plenty, but current ones are helpful to lurkers. Oh, and It doesn't need more cyan- it just needs less Brown, Light blue, and Blue. :evil:

Sorry guys... the power went out Thursday evening and it just came back up now...

I'll play my turnset by tomorrow (for real this time :P).

Mine came back up Friday night :D

Yeah... us at the north end of Mercer Island got lucky - south side doesn't get power for another three days :p .

I'll be out until January 8.

Forgot to tell you... I'm without a Civ computer 'til January 4th on a ski vacation.

I'll play when I get back.

So the thread's on vacation at the moment, eh? :(

Hello? Anyone there? Come on, Frrosch and Tim, you two were on today (In my timezone). As for the others, Lo5 and Anar haven't been on in 3 months (or more, in Lo5's case :mad:) :lol:, Pneuma hasn't been on since Nov. 29 and TLM hasn't been on since Dec. 22. Surely one of you can play.

I could play except that I played the last set (reminds me of SGOTM 11...sigh).

It reminds me of Schizophrenic Shaka (see link in my sig)

Is it time for you to play yet, tim? ;)

Sure, why not.

1385(0): sell corporation to Spain for espionage, WM, 57g
switch Pharsalos to SPHQ
intelligence agency wouldn't be useful
switch some police stations to sipahi

IBT: Carthage drops off longbowman
learn refining, start on combustion

1390(1): zzz

1395(2): zzz

1400(3): alternate between 0% and 100%
start some banks

IBT: Pentagon built

1405(4): zzz

1410(5): some Sipahi head to Carthaginian cities

IBT: SPHQ built

1415(6): sell medicine to Germany for 40g, 27gpt, WM
sell refining to Spain for 143g, 59gpt, WM

1420(7): zzz

1425(8): lose 2 sipahi razing Rusaddir

IBT: Carthage rifle dies
learn combustion, start on flight

1430(9): zzz

IBT: Spain declares war
they capture Edrine, Giuseppe :mad:
that includes palace, FP, heroic epic, military academy, pentagon :sad:

1435(10): recapture Edrine, Giuseppe
raze Baltimore (Carthage)

Notes: Once again, probably some builds should be switched to sipahis; after flight sipahis can be shipped over and war with probably Germany (to connect our cities) can begin
Carthage is close to giving us Nora and Sulcis for peace, perhaps they'll be willing with 3 sipahis on Nora's doorstep
We might as well capture Asturias from Spain
We've got 4 small wonders to rebuild; Konya might be good for the FP
I had "Alesia needs work" in my notes, probably changing irrigation to mines
eventually at least 5 stock exchanges for Wall Street would be good

Here's the "roster":
? (TimBentley, probably) - up
TimBentley - just played

Try signing multiple per turn deals with Spain so they won't attack you.

One month has passed. Tim, play ASAP. :p

Spring Break (which occurs during winter) is coming up; I might go ahead and finish the game.

Good idea. Everyone else is MIA.

I signed peace with Carthage and waited for flight to attack somebody else. Carthage, Germany, and America were wiped out by 1590. Spain had barely (if at all) started settling the empty land and hadn't started Apollo Program (unless it was in a small city I didn't investigate) for a while after getting the necessary technology and resources, so I called the election in 1745 and decided to vote for my opponent. We still managed to be magnificent, being first in points IIRC. Just for fun I wiped out Spain in 1772. The save before "victory" is attached if anyone cares.

Well, Spain didn't settle the empty land becuase AI=Idiot. ;)