Idea for a succession game. Vanilla. Terra Map. Leader: George Washington. Standard settings. Speed:normal or epic. Level: monarch or prince.

Variant: we start on the old world and have to colonise the new world. By Independence Day (1776 if not before) we have to move capital to the new world, lose all our cities in the old world (captured, given away, anything else just get rid of them) and play exclusively on the new world. After Independence Day we cannot settle or occupy any cities in the old world.

All victory conditions enabled (though domination unlikely due to settling restrictions). The variant means that we'd lose any wonders (world or national) , shrines or settled GPs in the old world and we'd be virtually starting from scratch (except for our technology and as many units as can be sailed across).

I haven't tried this as a solo game. I'm not sure if its possible (difficulty obviously depending on level) but it sounds challenging.

Anyone interested?

sounds interesting count me in

Lurker comment:

This sounds incredible fun although i don't have the time to participate. Building wonders that do not contribute to research would have to be skipped. GP should be popped mostly for techs as you can't take them with you. This is actually something I am very interested in with a philosophical leader what the net result would be if you pop just techs.

If you can get UN by 1776 then a diplomatic victory is very possible since you will be giving away a lot of cities. Although you will have to have a great share in the new world otherwise you won't get elected UN leader.

But it's possible you will already have won the game before 1776.

I think you must be more specific, eg. you may not conquer/raze city's in the old world (except barbcity's), so you can't weaken your opponents there, and after your third (or something like that) city in the new world you must build a palace in 1 of those as quickly as possible before you may build a fourth city, (just to make it impossible that you create quickly a vast, already dominant empire in the new world before moving your palace).

Victory: UN or space.

I'd like to sign up for this. Rather challenging for my first sg, but interesting.

I'd vote for epic and prince. I'm a monarch player myself but the variant calls for the easier difficulty.

Very difficult.

I'm thinking the oracle and liberalism would be essential to slingshot to astronomy as early as possible.

Not a signup btw, I'll lurk this one.

I'd like to join you
I think prince will be enough if you loose nearly all of your cities.

gifting cities doesn't improve relations IMO, most of the time the AI doesn't even want your cities outside of a peace treaty

Seems very interesting. I'd like to join!

Some initial ideas.
We establish a small science base (4-6 cities?), to get astronomy asap. Low maintenance, high commerce (cottages). When we get optics we send some caravel/explorers accross to make plans. We'll need some productive coastal cities to build galleons. Then we load up a handful of settlers (or more), loads of workers and defense units and make a big start. Also attack force to take barbarian cities. We'll also need quite a bit of starting money to deal with unit support costs. We should build up savings and sell techs ;)

Then sail over and build our new capital city. Then we gift/sell our cities to different opponenents. Can we trade cities for a war declaration? Then we could leave the old world at war with eachother.
Ideally we gift all old cities, then declare war and leave the capital undefended. It gets captured and the palace flies over to the other side of the world :lol:

And there we are in the new land. A good settling force and loads of starting techs. We can quickly build and capture cities to catch up. Develop the land.

And then? Diplomatic victory or space race seem to suit the theme quite well. Cultural will be difficult without loads of religions and late start.

Can we raze cities in the old world to prevent them winning a space race?

I like this variant!
(Prince is probably difficult enough)

Lurker's comment
Why don't some of you PM pigswill to get the game started? Or start? This sounds like an interesting variant but alas I'm already in three SG's.

Thanks Robo, I had just done that.

pigswill replyed that he will get this game going in the next couple of days.

I've PMed all people who had expressed an interest in playing and posted in the registration thread.

Any victory is invalid if we haven't met the basic variant i.e.our civ is based solely in the new world so pre 1776 domination/ conquest doesn't count.

I haven't hosted an SG before but I reckon we'll stick with basic SG conventions, 24 hour got it, 48 hour play time. If you can't play then post a skip asap. Be nice to each other, no flaming. We're all likely to make sub optimal moves and decisions but that's ok, it just adds to the challenge.

I'll wait till tomorrow evening to give people time to log in then roll a start. I'm afraid that despite explanations I still haven't sussed screenshots tho I can manage thumbnails.

Tips on forum basics for an IT noob ;)

Screenshots:
1. Get a free account at a place like http://www.photobucket.com. There you can easily upload your images.
2. In the game press the Print scrn button to take a screenshot.
3. In photobucket select the screenshot and upload.
4. Below the uploaded image in photobucket there is a [img] tag, copy this tag.
5. Paste the [img] tag into your post. :cooool:

Savegame
The save game can be attached to your post with the normal forum features. 1. Press attachments icon.
2. Browse for the savegame and upload.
3. In the post press the attachments icon again and select the savegame.
4. It will be attached to your post. :scan:

Links
1. To add a link, got to the post you want to link.
2. Select and Copy the Address from the explorer address bar: e.g http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4545410
3. Go to the post where you want to add a link. Select the text you want the link under. E.g. Link to the save
4. Press the hyperlink icon (looks like a globe).
5. Paste the copied address and presto! :cool:

Yes! This is finally going to kick off! Reporting for duty.

And Rem, thanks for those tips. Sure will come in handy.

Some pre-game discussion re: wonders.

We can build any beneficial NWs in the old world, because we can build them anew in the colonies, but what about WWs.

The Colossus is a no-brainer, because it obsoletes with astronomy and is huge with, say, three coastal cities.

I think that we should also shoot for the GL. It won't obsolete before we surrender the old world but it's boost would benefit us much more than the AI.

Your thoughts on these?

Re: astronomy.

Get ast. through liberalism. Nuff' said.

Re: Great people.

I think that it would be a strong move to save most of the GPs we generate in the old world for settling them in the colonial cities. Also, leave (if possible)
one great merchant asleep in an AI capital. That will provide us with all the money we need when we move the capital.

And of course, we should all get spanked if we don't build the statue of liberty in the new world. :p This is going to be great.

Remconius: thanks for the tips.

If we're going for prince I'd probably go for normal speed because epic might make it a bit too easy, but I'm open to persuasion.

Obviously we're going to need at least a couple of coastal cities. 4-6 cities and aiming for rapid teching is what I had in mind. Probably beeline for optics followed by beeline for liberalism.

In terms of wonders we can go for national wonders and also early wonders that'll become obselete: colossus, stonehenge, oracle.

Religions is going to be interesting because we don't want to be building shrines that we give away later; only chance of a shrine would be founding Islam in the new world which may or may not be possible; no harm in getting religions for religious civics and also denying them to AI until we migrate.

GPs will be interesting, probably burn them on techs or save for new world migration.

It would be good to build Statue of Liberty in New York (we can always change city names).

I was thinking about Monroe Doctrine (no old world civs allowed in the new world).

Saving GP means a library to get quick academy is not an option... We could use GP to get techs.

Great scientists can be used to get part of Astronomy, as long as we have optics and not paper, IIRC. If we have two ready we could get Astronomy even if the liberalism slingshot fails.

I do like the idea of leaving a great merchant in the old world for a load of cash...

Prefer to play epic, as I am getting used to it. The variant seems too difficult for Monarch, but I am up for anything.

What is the verdict on attacking the old world and razing/pillaging?

Epic it shall be.

Re: attacking/razing/pillaging Old World. After Independence Day we can raze and pillage to our heart's content. Before Independence Day we can raze no more cities than we own (e.g. If we build 4 cities and capture 2 for a total of 6 then we can raze up to 6 cities. No in-game rationale for this; its just to stop us getting too carried away)

Have you decided for Prince or Monarch?

Regarding religions, I think we should pursue the fastest way to get to Astronomy. Only stopping for key techs that will help this goal.

Intial beeline for alphabet with pottery seems logical. Maybe stopping for archery and the odd improvement tech. Or going for BW first and then alphabet.
--------------------------------------------------------
Overview of George
Civ: America
UU: Navy SEAL
Techs: Fishing, Agriculture
Traits:
Financial
+1 commerce on plots with 2 commerce.
Organized
Civic upkeep reduced 50 percent.
Double production speed of Lighthouse and Courthouse.
--------------------------------------------------------
Traits will sure help coastal cities. Cheap lighthouses, fishing, and +1 commerce for coastal squares.

IDEA IDEA IDEA
Perhaps we could go for a "commerce only" strategy. Would be interesting to try in a test game, which I might try tonight. The idea is:
-Each city focuses on commerce only and food of course.
-Production is not needed, because buildings will be lost anyway.
-Mainly cottages are built.
-Libraries can be whipped.
-Wonders, religion are not a priority.
-The goal is to have an expendable settlement with minimal improvements.
-After we gift our cities and lose our capital we can also leave some units to pillage our own cottages ;)

We build cities along the coast, near river/grasslands with at least one food resource in the radius. We develop food resources to grow and cottage river and grassland tiles. Coastal cities get a lighthouse.
The cities will work only coastal and cottage tiles. These tiles produce at least 3 commerce and 2 food, sustaining growth and producing good commerce.
We dont work any mines and build minimal improvements! Well we might need one more production oriented city to build units for defense purposes. Other 5 cities focus on growth and commerce only. They'll produce things very slowly, but that is fine. When they get to happiness limits we build workers and settlers for future colony with excess food.
When we get astronomy, we whip all the population into galleons and gift the cities.
This way we can focus on science and not spend hammers for useless buildings.

I really like your "extreme commerce"- approach, Rem.
I will support playing it out, if only the map lends itself to it.

So, fire the game up, Piggy! (Can I keep calling you that, o captain my captain?) :mischief:

I'll try a test game tonight, to see if it's viable.

Lurker's comment: This seems interesting. I'll watch it from the shadows. :D Good luck, guys.

I'm in (I hope :) ) (forgot to subscribe with 1st posting)

we need a roster, and i hope you roll a nice start for us :)
i think our first unit should follow the starting river to find the ocean, if we don't start anywhere close to it

Tried a G. washington game with full commerce focus, terra on standard. Only normal game speed. Will try epic now.
Preliminary test results:
Old world
-Worked well, and migrated to other continent in around 1200AD with only 3 cities in old world.
-Got closed in quickly, so building settlers early is needed. Low sea level would help to create more land.
-An aggressive neighour, like Monty for me, declared a little early which hampered my commerce effort.
-Workers chopped all forest in range to make up for the lack of production tiles.
-Was able to make quite a bit of money from trades.
-I built Colossus which helped commerce, but also gave me a great merchant! :)
-You can only gift cities to direct neighbours.
New world
-Whipped old cities down to size one, let montezuma take it and presto, the capital moved to the other side of the world. I left a few units to pillage the fully developed towns.
-Brought a few settlers, but didnt really need them as there were many barbarian settlements.
-Brought workers to new continent, which really helped.
-Most important was to bring a good sized army to take all the barb cities.

Will report more from the epic test.

Test 2: Epic speed
-This time I played low sea level, which gave me more land to settle. :)
-Result was similar, in 1200AD I had moved to new continent. This time I settled 4 cities in old world.
-In contrast to the previous try, I had no S neighbour, resulting in barbarian threat to deal with. I had to use the editor a few times to complete the test game. In other words we should not neglect defense as I did.
-We need mysticism to build obilisks.
-I also had to deal with civ war declaration as in the previous try. Maybe if we have more units we can avoid this.
-This time I had 38 units moving to new world, resulting in 17 maintenance. That means no science when I got rid of old world cities. Either we move with less units, or we get rid of old cities gradually as we take over new world. One for one I say.
-A great merchant gave 1350g whether the capital was on the same continent or in the new world.
-Once again colossus proved very useful. With lighthouse coastal squares produce 2F, 4C. Almost no need to grow a cottage.
-A few happy resources help a lot like gems, gold, ivory.
-I didnt even build oracle or get liberalism (this costs 10K more hammers) Beeline for astronomy is faster.
-I also didnt get any great scientist, which would have helped for sure.

Thanks for the test; nice to know the concept is feasible; craziivan is joining us,adamlan PMed to say he wouldn't be.
Its getting late here and I'm knackered so I'll roll a start tomorrow. Prince and epic seems to be the recipe; any preferences in terms of play order?
I'm thinking probably 20 turns for first set then 15.

I should make two scientists, together they give you Astronomy. I tried this variant on monarch and got Astronomy only a few turns after optics. i think prince will be to easy (terra is the easiest map). I'll lurk this one.

We could still go for Monarch :mischief:

I think "building" a couple of scientists will be very useful.

@Pigswill - if you make the game choose low sea level, especially on Monarch. What map size are we doing anyway? And barb level?

With regards to turns, the first turns can be very boring, but also decisive especially where to settle. Maybe we should start up faster 30, 25, 20 and then 15 each.

Starting Location
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/Independence4000bc0000.jpg

Settings
Version:Vanilla
Level: Monarch
Speed: Epic
Leader: George Washington (financial,organised)
Map Type: Terra
World Size: Standard
Sea Level: Low
Climate: Temperate
AI:Random Standard (7)
Barbarians: Standard


Actually started (and my first screenshot in my thousandth post, slow learner (thanks remconius, again)). First map roll and we've started on what looks like the west coast with a seafood tile.

Rota
pigswill 4000bc-3000bc
Craziivan 3000bc-2200bc
remconius 2200bc-1600bc
stuge 1600bc-1000bc

It would be nice to have at least one, possibly two, more players but we've waited long enough. Any thoughts on builds, techs etc?

Given our specific situation, my feeling would be to settle 1N.

It's away from the river, but we have clams and rice already, we should be fine on health. There are only two river tiles and the extra commerce from the river will help the early game. A cottage on the plains river will yield 3 commerce instantly. We dont need plains hills in our high commerce game. Rice and clams will provide extra food.

Our capital would look like this with 4 pop:
city 2F,1H,9C
-Rice 4F
-Clams 4F, 3C
-plains river cottage 1F,1H,3C
-plains river cottage 1F,1H,3C
Total 12F, 3H, 18C.
Commerce increases as cottages grow.

That is +4 food or +5 with lighthouse. From there we can grow fast working 2F, 3C coastal squares or grass cottages for a long time.

To achieve this we build a workboat, then worker. We farm rice and cottage both river squares. We'll be up and running in not time.

Techs:
Wheel, pottery, mining, BW.

Giving my views, but feel free to comment

lurkers comment

We dont need plains hills in our high commerce game.

oh yes you need it to build the Oracle and the Colossus. My advice is no cottages, only commerce from water, and farm the grass to be able to have scientists.

Asperger has a point. We could consider a hybrid economy. It's much more powerful in the early game than pure CE. (As demonstrated by the couple latest ALC games.)

That would also give us more great people to boost our recovery post-migration.

I'd settle in place. Those two plains-hills could come in handy. But move the warrior NW before the final decicion.
Build order: Workboat, worker, some military and settler.

Settle in place is fine by me, even 1S to not waste one forest... City site doesnt have to be optimal as we'll abandon it anyway. With two food resources we can make good use of slavery.

Did a test game and my preference would be to go for Mining and Bronzeworking while working the clams, then maybe rice or even another coastal tile. Workboat will be slow, but BW fast and the workboat can be whipped to completion once we get BW. Then we make a worker which can farm and start chopping the forests.

what is a ALC game?

you should explore the north with the warrior
if there are no resources move out of the forest and look around if there is a reason to settle on the plains hill for 2 production on city square
but I think the clams will look better :)

for techs I would take care of what we need for our resources and then pottery and writing for library as soon as possible

EDIT: I live in Central european time zone and I'll try to look in this thread at least once a day, I hope that will be enough so that I don't miss anything ;)

My thinking is to settle in place, always nice to be near a river for free health bonus;its also good to have a mixture ofterrain; we're never going to get to 20 pop so we don't have to worry about using every tile.

In terms of builds I was thinking warrior first to speed exploration, start working clams once available after first border pop (8 turns on epic), then workboat, worker.

Techwise we start with fishing and agriculture so I'm thinking mining and BW for slavery and chopping (and locating copper) then probably wheel, pottery, sailing. I'm also considering myst, med, priesthood for oracle (probably best used for metal casting).

I think we should be looking for one production city to build military units and 3-4 commerce (probably coastal) cities. We can cluster them together because expanding in the old world aint a priority for us.

ALC All Leaders Challenge - series on strategy forum by Sisiutil.

I dont think we need a warrior first. We have one to explore. We only need to find space to found 3-4 cities. A warrior after/between workboat and worker is more than enough.

Played my first turnset up to 3010.
No major surprises. Popped three huts for 2 maps and 33 coins, could have been worse (I suppose).
We have some very nice neighbours: Alex, Cyrus, Genghis and Tokugawa.
We don't have any copper.
We have a workboat and a worker is one turn and a whip away,we're currently researching wheel.

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/independence3010bc0000.jpg

Edit: we're on the equator; at the top of the map resources point down, at the bottom of the map resources point up!

Looking good. Down south we can set up a couple fish-commerce cities.

When we get IW, we can make some useful cities around the rice and another at the gems with a river. Wonder where we are though, it seems to be an inland sea we are at.... Let's build a galley pretty soon.

A very late-night dot map... Going to bed now.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n266/stuge_T/Dotdotdot.jpg

Edit: we're on the equator; at the top of the map resources point down, at the bottom of the map resources point up!
that only depends on your screen, they always point up in the lower half :p

the dotmap looks good at first glance, I'll take a look at the savegame and play tomorrow(Saturday in Germany)

I'm wondering if we should go for IW after pottery; we'll need something to scare off the neighbours even if we don't want to fight them.

We could have a good city on the desert left or above the fish in SE. It would have extra food from fish and can then continue to grow with coast and grass cottage squares.

Archers + later longbows are not enough to scare off ?

Question: does the AI take promotions into account when they consider declaring war?

I'll start playing now

Let's see if we can get a second city


hmm 2200BC are more than 20 turns :hmm:

hm i just noticed we are all from europe? ;)

Turn 0, 3010 BC
Research: Wheel in 6
Army: one warrior :)

Turn 1, 2980 BC
whip the worker to increase productivity, the saved 7 turns will make up for lost pop point

Turn 2, 2950 BC
Riceport: worker->warrior to scout a little more
now farming the rice

Turn 3, 2920 BC
zzz

Turn 4, 2890 BC
Hinduism FIADL

Turn 5, 2860 BC
zzz :)

Turn 6, 2830 BC
Wheel->Pottery

Turn 7, 2800 BC
Riceport grows to size 2, again.

Turn 9, 2740 BC
a lion appears south of our lands and a warrior of Tokugawa southward

Turn 11, 2680 BC
Riceport: warrior->barracks
starting barracks because we will need them sometime and I want to let the City grow a little

Turn 16, 2530 BC
Pottery->Mystizism
going for oracle to get
worker starts cottage

Turn 18, 2470 BC
we are the LEAST advanced nation of the World Oo

Turn 23, 2320 BC
Mystizism->Meditation

Turn 24, 2290 BC
zzz

Turn 25, 2260 BC
zzz

Turn 26, 2230 BC
zzz

Turn 27, 2200 BC
zzz

hum I just noticed I took no screenshots, always forget them :(

Lots of turns at the start coz we're playing on epic, also without many units to move around and one city you can get through a lot of turns quickly.

I'm certainly ok with move to oracle and if we're going for it the sooner the better.

I'd still like to see if we've got iron around; we could conquer the new world with longbows and cats but it would be nice to have some maces as well.

OTOH if we're going for marblecow city it would be useful to have AH after priesthood; maybe we'll have hosses.

As far as I know AI don't figure promotions when comparing army size/ power graph.

we also need sailing soon for light houses to get the watercommerce going

Note that the n.2 plot on my dot map,if possible, should be moved 1N to grab the bananas.

Well, what did you expect? I said it was a late-night job.

And it appears that we are indeed euro. all the way.

This sounds interesting. I don't have the time for SGs anymore but I'll lurk.

Hmm, where is the save?

A save might be useful.

Are we going to build a settler before oracle? If so where second city goes might determine immediate tech path. If we're going for jungle ivory city then we'll need IW next(likely to be a favoured spot for AI so if we don't get there soon we won't get it and might still lose the race to settle anyway). If we go for marblecow then we'll need sailing and AH first.

damn... i knew i was forgetting something sorry

Had a look at the save; jungle ivory gone already; marblecow looks fairly safe location so I'd think about switching to settler now and switching research to IW; both ready in 23 turns (research likely to speed up after 15 turns due to hamlet) and look to settle north first.
On the other hand these are purely my ramblings so feel free to follow your judgement.

Cyrus has taken over the 'phants already? Damn.

We'd better have iron. If Toku beats us to the rice/bananas site, we'll have to take some cities unless we wish to try getting to astronomy with only two cities.

So, if iron turns up, I'll administer some :hammer: on Crown-of-Cigars.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/dotmapindependence.jpg

Here is a new proposal for a dotmap.

Rice/banana (possibley gems?) and cow town are pretty good sites.
Two fish towns will be perfect for commerce. +5 food and lots of coast/grass cottage squares. They will be able to do nothing but produce commerce :) And that is exactly what we need.

BTW got it and I will probably play tonight. Build settler and finish it with chops/maybe whip. Get IW will probably take too long for settler to get Rice immediately, maybe go for cow first.

We could move Rice 2 west, and just focus on commerce. Then we build a gems town further north, if possible.

@ stuge, we can fit in a few high commerce sites, so we should be fine.

Okay, Rem. We'll go with your dots.

The only problem is culture. Do we want to try Stonehenge or shall we build obelisks through chopping&whipping?

Looking at the dotmap again, I think we could go for 1S of the gems and 1S of Rice2, that would have 2 inland lakes for extra food with a lighthouse.

Obilisks I think would be fine for culture..

1S of the gems would be fine, but Japan will probably beat us there.
Still, let's keep the option open. We could settle marblecow - gems - rice - desertfish - otherfish. Settling
in that pattern, we can seal off some land to protect it from Toku's and Cyrus' greasy fingers.

If we settle gems first then Fish2 we cut the AI off from our land. We just shouldnt sign OB until we are settled down.

I'd be very surprised if Tok didn't beat us to the gems but Rice2 would probably still be available. If we build four cities in old world then four obelisks would cost same as stonehenge in which case I'd let someone else build the wonder. It would be nice to get oracle however

PT: Change to IW and Rice Port to settler.


Move worker to forest.
Start chopping
Warrior starts moving N to explore gems.
zzz
Montezuma appears. We sign peace but I know he's an aggressive kind of guy...
zzz
Chop complete, move workerto next forest.
Start chopping.
zzz
Warrior is lost to Barb archer :( I start moving the Riceport warrior to give settler protection.
Settler can be whipped for 1 pop, I pick up the whip.
Settler completed, new warrior started. Worker's Chop is completed and given to next settler, but overflow from previous build is given to warrior. Worker moves to chop another forest.
Settler and warrior move N, hoping Gems is still available.
Warrior and settler move next to the barb archer, but it is wounded and I am on a forest hill.
Archer dies trying to attack :)
Move N
1690 BC: River Gems is founded and prevents the AI from reaching other Rice. It starts building a obilisk. Isabelle also shows up.
Warrior is ready and fortifies in capital.
Chop completed, worker moves to mine hill.
Mining started.Notes for the next player:
-If we found Fishy2 next we prevent the AI from taking our spots. I suggest we go there next.
-We can chop the last forest in Riceport to speed settler production.
-The bananas give +1 food, that is 3F on grass. That means they are excellent spots for a cottage, especially the river one. By the time we get calendar, we'll be long gone ;-)
-River gems will be a good town that can also grow well. Also
-Fishy cities and other rice city will have one goal only to have a lot of commerce.
-After we complete expansion we need a few extra workers, build lighthouses in coastal cities, but we also need a lot of defenders to keep the AI off our backs.

138997

Remconius: good work on River Gems.
Our set of friendly neighbours is virtually complete; the only one missing is Isabella demanding we convert to Judaism (or else).
Might I suggest that after fishy2 settler we either go straight to oracle or forget it altogether.

Rem, sterling work. I cannot believe that we actually got to the gems. Being the only luxury around, they will help us a lot. Your guidance is sound, but I think we'll skip the Oracle. On monarch, it is usually built before 1000 BC. I inherit in 1600 BC without any shields invested? And there won't be a multitude of forests to chop. Right. We'll be better off just getting our cities up and running asap.

Will play&post tomorrow. Feel free to comment on the Oracle until then.

Never played a game without heading for oracle but in the circumstances, what the heck! Wonders, who needs them? Iron, on the other hand...

After Fishy2, we should build a number of extra defenders.

We have quite a few aggressive neighbours which we dont want to war just yet. Having more units should keep them off our back.

1690 BC: River Gems is founded and prevents the AI from reaching other Rice.
yay for that surprise coup

do we have iron working yet?
i remember it taking a very long time

Iron working is due in a few turns I think.

I inherit in 1600 BC. Everything is looking good so I hit enter.

My first decision is to hurry the settler training by chopping the last forest near Riceport. The overflow goes towards a warrior escort. A few turns later R-port is whipped one turn before the warrior completes, thus providing another warrior via overflow. One is sent with the settler, the other goes towards Rivergems.

Regarding iron:

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n266/stuge_T/Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg

Yes! Worker is sent to mine & road immediatly.

Desertfish is founded in 1360 BC on Fishy 2. It is set to build a workboat working a plains forest.

Then it's :sleep: until my last turn.

Rivergems finishes the obelisk and starts a granary. Worker completes route to iron mine and is sent towards the gems.

An overview of our empire:

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n266/stuge_T/Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg

Some pondering:

- I researched AH and masonry in preparation of settling the marblecows. Sailing is due in a few turns so don't bother connecting our cities with roads until our workers have nothing better to do.

- Riceprot is currently building a worker. Don't whip it, 'cos there is still unhappiness for 8 turns from the last whip. After it's complete, mine one of the hills and set R-port to building axemen. Stack most of them in Rivergems.
Also, don't delete the old warriors. We're really short-handed with luxuries
and they will make good MP units when we get monarchy.

- After D-fish finishes the workboat in five turns, it should build our next settler with a chop or two.

And the save. Lead our people well, Piggy.

looking good
my turns look like our dark age compared to the last turnsets ;)

I hope sailing-trade kicks in immediately, sometimes I had problems getting the trade routes with it

To speed up research we should research things like code of law and currency, maybe trade something cheap for bows? ;)

Good turnset :goodjob:

We should build a good number of defenders. Right now ew look like an easy target. Three cities and just a few defenders. After 3-5 defenders we can get back to expansion, I reckon. I think river gems should also build a few units before a granary (if we should build one at all. Remember we can take units with us, but not a Granary.)

I would prefer to see us build more units and less buildings.

We've got ourselves to 1000bc in one piece; scouted the neighborhood and met the neighbours; got three cities established; got metal for military so all in all a reasonable start.
Time for some decisions: I noticed in first round that some of us were going for oracle and others weren't, no big deal but probably wasted a few research turns going for priesthood. So do we go for colossus? We need to settle 2 more sites before opening borders. We need to build up our military to deter attack. What do we go for first?
Also, research. Do we bee-line for optics or research around a bit? Are we going to try tech trades?
Great people. Probably looking at specialists; libraries for scientists (needs writing); markets for merchants (currency) or maybe colossus. Do we want to discover a religion?

Turn-sets. 15 turns per set reasonable for next couple of rounds?
What if someone wants to join us? I'm advertising but had no takers so far.

We've been keeping up with the game quite well so far. Could wait a couple of days to get people's thoughts and formulate mid-game strategy we're all happy with.

Colossus would sure help, but without copper it could take a while. Not much forest left to chop.

Religion is not needed I reckon. I say we go straight for astronomy and get off this old arid land.
Writing would be useful to get a 1-2 GS and help with Astronomy.

We can settle three more cities. Rice2, Fishy1 and the cows site. Rice2 has access to Rice and Inland lakes which are good food and commerce. Fishy1 will be useful once its borders expand and it gets the fish online.
I dont think we should build many more buildings, except the odd library. Lets make a nice attack force to take over the new world instead. And we can build a few galleys to explore now and upgrade later to galleons. Workers are also good to produce as we can take them to the new world. For the rest all our cities can be smallish 6-8 and focus on commerce to sail over soon.

That would be my plan, but feel free to comment.

I tried something similar once. One important thing is to somehow manage to lose your capital (and all other cities in the old world too) as soon after you founded your first cities over there as possible.
Maintanance will kill you otherwise.

i don't think we need a religion
but the colossus or the great lighthouse(if we don't get copper) will be very nice, great lighthouse is awesome when you get some foreign trade routes+harbours

is there only one settled continent on terra maps? (+ the empty/barbarian)

remember not to make to many military units because of maintenance, we may also need to build courthouses in the new world before we can climb out of that hole

Here's a partial list of GS research preferences for consideration (I'll probably need some help to understand it properly):-

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
The Wheel
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy
Biology
Electricity
Flight
Genetics
Compass
Satellites
Sailing
Alphabet
Calendar

So if we research wheel, writing, maths but avoid CoL (philosophy pre-req) then we should be set up for optics and astronomy slingshots; we'll also need compass (iron,sailing), metal casting (pottery), machinery, calendar. Some of these we've already got, some we could trade for at some point. Maybe trade for stuff like currency and calendar pre-astronomy and CoL after astronomy (though I'd be cautious about trading optics before circumnavigation and astronomy at any time). What other techs do we need that ain't on the beeline? Obviously alphabet for tech-trading. Do we need monarchy?

Craziivan: there's only one continent (containing AI) and new world (no AI) on terra.

We dont need courthouses in the new world, if we time it properly. Giving away / losing cities that are costing too much. Especially because we should have a bit of money from trades by then.

Regarding the GS preferences. As long as we dont have the requirements for paper we can get optics and astronomy, which means if we can get a city to produce 3 GS we're swinging all the way there.

Thinking about our migration plans

We should try to build a caravel and explorer as soon as they are available. We can send this across to the new world to find a good site for our capital. It should be central and have good resources.

When we get astronomy we start whipping galleons and more axemen/swordsmen to reduce our old world to size 1. We send a bunch of units to the new world. If we have 2-3 attack forces we could gather around multiple cities.

We gift whatever we can, but they dont accept all cities. Rivergems could go to Tokugawa, Desertfish to Cyrus.

We declare war on Toku and/or cyrus. Our units will be gone and on their way to the new world.

We take our new capital, wait for our old capital to be captured. During this time Maintenance will go up so we should have some spare cash, which means we might need alphabet and currency to trade techs for cash.

After the capital moved, we quickly use our other forces to take 2-3 more cities. We should have a small army of workers ready to develop the new world and we'll be off to a flying start.

We should leave a few axemen in the old world to pillage our developed cottages, maybe even raze a few captured cities :devil:

Migration asap is our long-term goal, sure enough. But I'd like to see us focusing on happiness short-term. Metal casting should be discovered without delay, giving us the Colossus and forges (we've got gems!). I'd also prioritise monarchy.
Hereditary rule is magnificent for a luxury-poor civ, like us, and the bigger our cities are, the more they can work those (hopefully) 4C coastal tiles.

Migration asap is our long-term goal, sure enough. But I'd like to see us focusing on happiness short-term. Metal casting should be discovered without delay, giving us the Colossus and forges (we've got gems!). I'd also prioritise monarchy.
Hereditary rule is magnificent for a luxury-poor civ, like us, and the bigger our cities are, the more they can work those (hopefully) 4C coastal tiles.

I would not call it a long-term goal. It is very possible start migrating before 1000AD. If we focus only on getting atronomy, we could even hop on a boat by 500AD. This makes it a medium term goal. The long term goal is to actually win the game after we migrated.

An easier way to get happiness is trade up our surplus fish for +:) luxuries. We should only need a 1-2 extra happiness before we start the big crossing.

I would not call it a long-term goal. It is very possible start migrating before 1000AD. If we focus only on getting atronomy, we could even hop on a boat by 500AD. This makes it a medium term goal. The long term goal is to actually win the game after we migrated.

An easier way to get happiness is trade up our surplus fish for +:) luxuries. We should only need a 1-2 extra happiness before we start the big crossing.

Alright. I think we're now pretty set for the next round. Let's get writing first for lib's and scientists and then MC for forges&Colossus. After that start heading towards astronomy by not researching CoL. Though literature might be in order to build the GL to speed up our GS production.

Go ahead and play the next turnset, captain.

Why does nobody mention the great lighthouse? It's not THAT evil :p plus it don't uses copper

if we whip the citys to size 1 and keep em there they will be destroyed and nobody can get our wonders, so feel free to build anything we might need :)

Heh, you're right, crazie(:mischief:). The Great Lighthouse would definetly benefit us, what with all of our planned 6 cities being coastal. But I think that the Colossus would benefit us more and with our limited production potential, we're going to have a hard time snagging both.

Of course, if there are no greater priorities, free cash won't hurt.

Only bad thing about great lighthouse is that it doesnt go obsolete till corporation. If we gift it to the AI, it will give them a great boost.

Seems like we're having debates about wonders but not too much else. I agree with remconius that we need to boost our military, we also have three more cities to establish and a bit of infrastructure in existing cities so I'm not sure how quick we'll start building wonders. I'm seriously considering going wonder-free in the old world but we'll see how it goes.
Tech-wise start with writing then metal-casting, I think we should debate tech choices off the beeline between sets.
Go to 15 turns per set from now on.
I'll be playing a bit later this evening.

Edit: had a quick look at the save; as expected we're trailing in power which needs addressing soonest. I'm wondering if granaries are a priority in cities where we're not planning on multiple whips. It's a different kind of game at this stage, normally you wouldn't hesitate about builds for long term benefits but we'd be giving long term benefits to someone else. Worth considering that anything that produces culture disappears when a city is captured so obelisks and libraries are safe to build.

Edit: Real Life Interference: won't be able to play tonight. Tomorrow should be ok.

In the test games I did I did not build anything, except lighthouses. Granaries have a benefit, but are hardly worth it. We dont want the AI to grow our whipped cities of size 1 back fast.

I agree we should not build many/any things for long term. We do need to build a bunch of swordsmen and axemen to take over the new world. A few galleys to start exploring. A wonder is nice but I'd rather show up in the new world with 4 extra axemen ;)

we could let the computer raze our cities instead of gifting them, especially cities with wonders

OR: gift them, declare, raze them by ourselves :p

As discussed above changed River Gems from granary to workboat; workboat to head south to Marblecow or Southfish when built (if it gets trapped by japan's borders then it's a bad move on my part). Several turns where nothing happened (hence gaps in report).

955. Desertfish builds workboat, starts settler.

940. Discover sailing, research writing.
Desertfish changes to lighthouse for growth.

910. Riceport builds worker, starts axe.

895. Monte converts to Buddhism.

880. Desertfish pop 2, reverts to building settler.
Barbarian warrior appears in south.

865. Stonehenge BIDL

850.Warrior defeats barb warrior; injured.

820. Discover writing, start metal-casting.

805. Riceport builds axe, starts barracks.

775. Gems mined, start to grow Riceport.

A map of the south.

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/south775bc0000.jpg

A map of the north (edo founded)

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/north775bc0000.jpg


A look at demographics. Doing ok for commerce; rest a bit behind.
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/demog775bc0000.jpg

A save:

Cool! We plan to focus on commerce and we are number 1! :goodjob:
And by a long way. We have 50% more than the number 2.

This should really help us, especially if we can get a few GS to speed us along even more.

Aww, no granaries for poor little stuge. Sniff.

Okay, y'all make a good point. Let's keep the old world simple, a tribute to the working class. (Which will eventually pack up and leave. :lol: )
Just got to quell the builder's instinct.

I think that after MC we should pick up literature, settle Marblecows and get started on the Great Library there. Meanwhile, Riceport could get busy on the Colossus. And then build the G. Lighthouse in Desertfish and ... (At this point, the inner builder gets slapped. Hard.)

Well, you're next up Craziivan, so it's up to your judgement whether or not our situation can support wonder-hogging.

Roster
pigswill (just played)
Craziivan <--Up Next
remconius <-- On deck
stuge

Probably good to post an updated roster at the end of your turn log.

Note on the save:

River gems could work lake instead of plains.
Desertfish could work coast instead of forest. Settler can be finished with chop and whip.
This shaves quite a few turns off MC.
Worker in North should build a cottage on the river bananas next.

I've got the save and will play Friday evening, maybe very late

I'm a bit concerned about the size of our army; even though the AIs' armies consist mainly of garrisoned archers we still appear weak which is not good when surrounded by aggressive AIs.

Worth considering whipping settler in Desertfish as soon as we can.

Good point, pigswill. We dont want to seem oversized and underpowered with Alexander and Tokugawa on our doorstep.

What I was wondering, should we stick with 4 cities?

I dont think we need to expand to 6 cities, it would cost quite a lot of time to make more settlers and the last 2 cities would hardly have time to grow. While building settlers we would halt growth that could be better spent trying to generate GS. Also with 6 cities we would seem more bloated than with 4 I reckon.

Other problem with building more cities is that they need to build an obilisk and grow borders before they become useful at all. And they would increase maintenance.

I would like to suggest the following plan:
Capital
-Build library, dedicate 2 scientist and continue to make units/galleys.

River Gems
Cottage both bananas. Build a lighthouse and focus on commerce. Produce units afterwards.

Desertfish
Doesnt even need an obilisk, but could use a lighthouse. It could just build units and work a few cottages and coastal squares.

Cowscity
We could build our 4th city near the cows, build a library while working the cows. That will generate commerce so we can work the fish with the workboat from Rivergems. We can also assign two scientists here and generate another GS.

If we want a city to stop growing, eventhough it has a food surplus, we could build a couple of workers to bring to the new world.

Riceport I think should be our main production centre;fish, rice, iron, 2 cottaged plains, 2 plains hills. Foodwise gives us 5+4+2+2+0+2=15 at pop7 so need to work on removing odd number; production wise gives us 4+2+8+1=15 hammers/turn.

Rivergems: gems, 2 cottaged bananas,lake=2+6+2+2=12 food which is indeed enough to run a library and 2 scientists at pop 6, wouldn't need a lighthouse.

Desertfish could run a lighthouse and library;fish(6f),2 water(4f)(+2f for city); 12 food at 3 pop, could run 2 scientists and build workers.

Marblecow gets marble, cow and fish; needs an obelisk; can't remember tile output from either cows or marble so have to think on that.

Ricelake would almost certainly run at a profit; it would also give us spare rice for trade (preferably for a luxury).

Healthwise shouldn't be too many probs with rice, cow, fish and clams. Happy wise we run at base 4, 1 for gems (capital gets +1 for palace of course), if we could trade for 2 luxuries we could run cities at pop 7 without having to divert to monarchy; this assumes that we ain't running a state religion which seems unlikely at this point.
In terms of going for Colossus we could think about commerce potential of coast vs cottages. Coast obviously starts 3c compared to 1c for cottage, after 15 turns get hamlet for 3c, then wait 30 turns for village for 4c. Colossus gives up 4c for coast immediately but looking at forge and colossus (400 hammers at epic?); minor happy boost for forge, GM points (but we'd have to MM GPP to get a GM); downside is that for the same hammers we could build eg 6 axes and 2 galleys. Not a straightforward decision.

Our military is indeed thin, but fortunately our lands are easy to defend. Stack 4-6 axes in Rivergems and don't worry about Toku. If we can cultivate Cyrus as an ally, our eastern border is quite safe too. I don't think he has ever attacked me only when he's been annoyed already.

It's sort of a blessing that we drew tihs bunch of psychos as our neighbours. Our research is bound to plummet during the Migration and it could get ugly if the Old World was full of peacenicks like Mansa and Gandhi, teching towards their spaceships.

BTW, I agree on making Riceport the production centre.

do you really think we can conquer the new World with axes?
or will we have the cash to upgrade
maybe the barbarians will have longbows when we arrive and we can conquer nothing ^^

I think we should make a tech sidestep to discover alphabet and currency. Then we can trade for cash and get all money around :)

Or else go for alphabet after metal-casting and see what we can get in trades for metal-casting; should be able to pick up maths and monarchy, if no-one has alphabet may be able to trade for currency and calendar the next turn but we'll have to see.

my turns were not very busy, just some whipping and infrastructure

Turn 0, 775 BC
Research: Metal Casting in 25 (oracle would have really saved commerce points here ;))
micro manage to 21 as suggested (but not without thinking about it myself) :p

Turn 5, 700 BC
Rivergems builds workboat which starts its journey to the south
start a lighthouse
Desertfish is whipped

Turn 6, 685 BC
Genghis Khan asks for open borders, I deny for now
Desertfish builds settler -> lighthouse

Turn 8, 655 BC
Riceport: barracks->library
our workboat spots another fish near the desert island, how useless (at least for us)

Turn 9, 640 BC
Cowboy city founded

Turn 10, 625 BC
yet another fish for the desert island, is it worth considering? The worst fact is that the ai can't reach it to take it

Turn 11, 610 BC
Riceport grows to size 6, its current happiness cap

Turn 15, 550 BC
we are last in score, first in GNP with Cyrus catching up slowly, but I don't think we have any real tech lead, (maybe after we discover alphabet)
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9098/civ4screenshot0011as7.jpg
you can see that we already have border encroachment from Pasargade, next player should consider opening borders with Kyrus

I put a new sign for rice2 where the city would be useful earlier but we would have to clear some jungle

I am not confident about getting a wonder, I hope we can get enough production for Colossus(1 commerce per water tile->better for science) or Great lighthouse(2 commerce per city->better for producing things)

Good turns.

I think we're pretty well set in an accepted course. Only one comment about our situation.

Desertfish needs culture BADLY. It has only 8 tiles left in it's first ring. Rem, you're up next so get a library up there and perhaps even an obelisk if there are no other priorities.

Expanding nicely. Still weak militarily. Riceport could do with building an axe or two, maybe finish library, mine plains hill then axes all the way (tho can build crossbows once we get machinery or may be able to trade for construction later). Desertfish could probably do with a library both for research and culture. River gems maybe build settler or work on library until hits size 3.

Remconius is UP
Stuge is on deck.

Got it!

Here's the plan:
-Build library in D-fish to avoid flip.
-build more military to protect ourselves.
-Grow and get commerce!

i think our capital should finish Library because it is a nice science boost

for the new world some swords might be handy

Should we aim for CS? Bureaucracy would be a nice boost and maces would assure rapid conquest of the new world. Tech path would be Monarchy - Feudalism - CS. We could also go by CoL if it won't offset our asrtonomy plans.

PreTurn:
Fishboat moved to unfog forest of Fishy1
We are dead last in military power, this will be my main focus!

535BC-Turn131
RG builds lighthouse, Axemen Started
DF builds lighthouse, Axe started (defense before culture I reckon)
Isabelle converts to Hinduism and declares on the Budist Monty. That's one way to angry, change your own beliefs :lol:

520BC-Turn132
Worker starts mine on grass hill.

505BC-Turn133
Library whipped in RP.

490BC-Turn134
RP build library, Axemen started.
Obilisk whipped in CC.

475BC-Turn135
Isabelle and Monty want OB, I agree. Seems like an easy way to stay friends. We can always cancel if they try to abuse.
Worker starts cottage for DF.
CC builds obilisk, starts lighthouse.

460BC-Turn136
zzz

445BC-Turn137
Metal Casting completed, Alphabet started.

430BC-Turn138
RP builds Axemen, Swordsmen started.
Axe is moved to DF.
Worker moves to other banana.

415BC-Turn139
Warrior from DF moves to forest as fogbuster.

400BC-Turn140
Other Banana cottage started.

385BC-Turn141
Cottage for DF is ready, next one is started.

370BC-Turn142
Alexander converts to Hinduism.

355BC-Turn143
Lighthouse complete in CC, Library started. It has a lot of food with cow and fish, and will be good to have 2 scientists.

340BC-Turn144
Signed a few more OB pacts. Hoping to get some luxurt trades going later on.

325BC-Turn145
Axe completed in RG, New one started.

Notes for next player
-When RP has size 6, it should assign 2 scientists.
-All cities are focusing on commerce, which should help to our goals.
-Production orders come in slowly, but can be whipped.
-We need to continue to build units for the new world and to keep the aggressors off our back.
-If we want another city, Hering city looks better than other Ricecity.
-We can easily trade fish or rice for a luxury. We have enough health...

The save:
139510

Got it.

Nothing to do right now so, what with there being no major decisions, I will play & post this evening.

Riceport needs to wait a few turns to overcome whip-misery; maybe work hillmine instead of rice until it does.
Desertfish still needs library; before or after current axe?
Herring is better for whipping then running specialists; rice 2 is better for cottages (obviously!).

Overall another nice set of turns.

Good to see AI falling out with each other.

As I understand GS preferences CS lines up paper instead of astronomy. I think that CoL will line up philosophy instead of astronomybut that's worth checking.

We're almost at the point of being able to tech-trade.

Stuge is UP. (Edit: and beat me to the post!)
Pigswill is on deck.
We're keeping up a good momentum. If anyone feels we're running ahead of ourselves and wants to pause the game for reflection feel free to say so.

Yeah we shouldnt get CS or CoL, we just need calendar and optics for astronomy.

Riceport can grow to 6 before the whipmisery goes, we have enough food to feed the unhappy man, and he can go straight to work as we come out of unhappiness.

Advantage of herring is that is has two high food tiles and doesnt need any tile development, just a lighthouse.

Technology:

Finished alphabet, researched polytheism and started literature, with two turns to go. Traded Izzy sailing for priesthood 'cause it's on the path to monarchy. Seriously, people. We NEED HR. The only luxury we can trade for is ivory and Cyrus wants our Iron for it. :gripe: I strongly suggest that we research monarchy next.

Domestic:

Built a cottage at D-Fish, a riverside-mine at RG and a quarry at CbT. (These names :crazyeye:) Wipped an axe in DF and fortified it in an effort to show Cyrus that we'd stick in his throat. Started a library there which should be whipped at the earliest opportunity.
CbT is building a library. After it's done start the GL. Speed it along with chops. 4 scientists will ensure that their big brothers will appear quickly.
RP built library, lighthouse and an axe. Second axe is in the process.
RG is building an axe. Work the riverside mine when it grows next turn for some production capability.

Foreign:

At the start of my turns, Monty declared on Izzy. A few turns later she showed up.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n266/stuge_T/Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg

And who could resist those eyelashes? :love: The war with Monty has been bloodless. He should be willing to sing peace on equal terms soon. It never hurts to suck up to the only woman in the bar. Curys tries hard but somehow it's just not the same...

Regarding Mongolia: Genghis demanded MC (piss off), founded confucianism, built th Kong Miao and declared on Curys.

Regarding Japan: Toku demanded that we cancel deals with Curys. He narrowed his eyes meaningfully when I told him where to stick it. Just keep stacking those axes in RG... He also founded Nara on an one-tile island so that we can't settle on rice 2.

Regarding Greece: Alex demanded MC, pissed off and declared on US. Sigh. Dear, the neighbourghs are giving us increasingly nasty looks. Perhaps it's time for us to move away. :lol:

Okay, Alex sent two stacks, 3 and 4 archers. They got whacked, although I had to run 0% science for a couple of turns to upgrade our warriors in RG.
It's up to governor Pigwill to decide whether we should teach him a lesson by
pillaging a bit. He obviously (thank god) lacks metals.

Results:

The south:

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n266/stuge_T/Civ4ScreenShot0010.jpg

The warzone:

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n266/stuge_T/Civ4ScreenShot0009.jpg

Our finances:

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n266/stuge_T/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg

Ratings:

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n266/stuge_T/Civ4ScreenShot0009-1.jpg

The roster:

stuge - just hit on Izzy
piggy - up now
crazie - on deck
remcon - jealous that Izzy came to me and not to him.

EDIT: Is this really a monarch game? Except for Stonehenge, ALL the early wonders (even the Oracle) are still available in 100 BC! :dubious: I've never seen anything like this before. Okay, now we can start debating about going for the Oracle now and about whose fault it is that we didn't go for it in 1000 BC. I blame myself. :blush:

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n266/stuge_T/Civ4ScreenShot0010-1.jpg

Aaand the save:

I dont agree. We would be better off researching the way to astronomy, we can trade for other techs along the way. Our cities dont need to be big. They will do fine staying small and focusing on science.

HR will help, but cost us valuable research beakers. It's nice to have bigger cities but not needed.

I feel we should have made a team decision on this.

Did you see the edit, Rem? We could still go for the Oracle. We'll have Marble online soon so RP could build it in about 10 turns.
What does the team say? About researching monarchy and about Oracle?

I'm pro-monarchy, because more people means more 3C tiles, especially at RG. It has lots of surplus food and we'll stack most of our forces inside it. It could grow fast and bring in LOTS of commerce. Also, the bigger our cities are, the more units we can whip out of them before the Migration.

I'm pro-Oracle, too. No guts, no glory...

Stuge: Monarchy for HR is certainly an arguable point and one I ain't decided on either way. I'm slightly perplexed as to why you went for poly and literature; they open up Glib, HE and NE but I'm not sure how high priority these are; may also be useful for trading counters but won't directly help us fulfil our Glorious Destiny in the new world.

The neighbours are predictably fractious. I'd be reluctant to be fighting wars of aggression at this point because we're still weak, all we'd need to do is lose a couple of units and have our forces out of place and Tok will pile on us.

Oracle is tempting because with marble we get double production for it; even if we don't get it we get a full (doubled) refund. Arguably its an exploit even if the AI probably do it as well.

I think that it is important that we keep to the astronomy beeline as much as possible and debate any deviations beforehand. We're all fairly experienced players so we know what we're doing and we can all give good reasons for our actions. The problem is that if we all follow our natural games we'll lose focus and 5 turns here and 10 turns there will mount up.

Something else I'm thinking is that our neighbours are quite unreasonable; any techs trades will be extortionate and resource trades are liable to be cancelled without notice so that's an argument for HR to be more self-sufficient. Its also an argument for moving house as soon as possible.

I think I'll wait 24 to give you all a chancefor your thoughts and opinions. Overall we're doing ok so we're certainly nowhere near a crisis.

The reason I went poly-literature is the GLib. We're planning on running two scientists in CbT. They will give us eventually our GS but the GLib will double their rate of arrival. We've got marble and we can hurry it by chopping around the Fishy 1-tag. CbT has nothing better to build anyway. Riceport can crank out all the units we need.

Without GLib we'd be getting 6 GPP. With it we'll be getting 14 GPP. That'll give us two, maybe even three GS before we migrate.

Hope that justifies the 12-turn deviation.

As for the Oracle, I think we could get it in RP if you start it immediately at the beginning of your turns. Machinery would be best for the free tech, I reckon.

But the ball is ultimately in your hands, governor pigswill.

I understand all the arguments, and they are all good were this a regular game.

From the test games I learnt, with proper focus we could be out of this continent in as little as 50 turns. This is not a normal game where we try to optimize our settlement, etc.

our goals are:
-Max science to get astronomy.
-Get great scientists to get astronomy faster.
-Building an attack force to take over the new world.

I dont mind taking a slow approach and getting some other techs to generate more GP. It's not a bad idea, but post your plan first and give us a chance to react.

You said:
Got it.

Nothing to do right now so, what with there being no major decisions, I will play & post this evening.

Then you went to play a few hours later on a different strategy.

475BC-Turn135
Isabelle and Monty want OB, I agree. Seems like an easy way to stay friends. We can always cancel if they try to abuse.

maybe not, they are enemies and will sooner or later ask for canceling our deals with their opponent or that we will join their war :)

I think with all this war we should try to get our citizens out there into the "safety" of the new world, as fast as possible.
but maybe we can take some GP with us to speed up development in the new world, but i think we can get monarchy from someone else some time, maybe from izzy when she finally has founded her christianity

in my own games i decide most things spontaneously, which results in 120hour games including some pauses while watching TV ;)

Hmm, good point. Havent figured out the impact of OB apart from the fact you can keep them out...

Open borders allow you to have trade routes with that particular civilisation (and them have trade routes with you) as well as free movement of units.

Right, but what are the other implications of OB?

The one you are signing it with is friends with you, but his enemies are angry with you... If he has more enemies that means signing makes more enemies than friends... Complicated it seems...

You get a bonus for open borders, you don't get a bonus for 'trading with our friends', you get a penalty for 'trading with our enemies', you also get a penalty for breaking agreements. Complicated indeed. In this situation the odd +1 or -1 ain't going to make much difference; if you're noticably weaker they'll attack regardless of diplomatic relations.

An issue I didn't consider when talking about old world and new world is islands. I'd probably say that Herring is part of the old world coz its on the continental shelf; if an island is seperated from old world by ocean tiles then I'd reckon its part of the new world and can be retained. Conclusion: don't settle herring island because its old world but not easily conquered like the mainland cities.
Fair point re trading for monarchy. If we have serious overcrowding and we can't trade for monarchy at that point then it may be worth researching.

Edit: a concern about Glib is that while it would certainly speed up GS production it doesn't become obselete until SciMeth and we'd be leaving it behind for someone else; otoh if we don't build it someone else will. We could also build NE quick with marble which would also speed up GP production at the cost of generating the occasional GA (potentially useful fogbuster in new worldof course). We could also partbuild Glib and rake in the cash when someone beats us to it. I think overall I'd go for oracle first, we might get it which speeds us to machinery.

Re tech path:

Literature (:smoke: or not) in 2 turns. After that math -> calendar. Calendar will essentially let us see which way it is to the New World. Then compass -> machinery(Oracle?) -> optics -> astronomy(GS).

Re Wonders & weed:

The Oracle could save us 20 turns of research if we pick machinery for free. Hook up the marble and don't let RP even finish that axe. It's a gamble but the risks are small and the payoff big.

Let's stick with the GLib, okay? Chasing it may have been weedy, unconsiderate and suboptimal by me but those extra 8 GS points certainly won't hurt us. With marble and three math-enchanced chops it will take ~ 20 turns in Cowboytown.
And we can always gift or allow CbT to be captured and then raze it to prevent the GLib from
benefitting the AI.

Certainly finish off researching literature. I'd be thinking about compass after lit while building oracle; if we do manage to get oracle for machinery we're then set up for optics (which can be researched by GS). Still need some more units and a couple of libraries.

Edit:finally got round to having a look at the save. It'll be a couple of turns before marble's connected so I'll finish off the axe in Riceport first. Probably try to get peace with GK having got the brownie points with Bel. No point warring with Al if we don't know where he is!

Another Edit: Tech-wise maths is available, could trade now or wait for monarchy and trade MC for both.

Calendar is a tech we can probably trade for. Especially compass is something that the AI doesnt get till later. We can then trade for calendar before we migrate.

GLib we should probably go for now that we have literature. Oracle we can try, but unlikely we get it.+

We should also get currency to trade for cash.

A fairly eventful set of turns; mainly positive.

100bc.
Trade with Cyrus. MC for mathematics and hunting.
Work hill in River Gem(RG) to speed up axeman.

85bc.
Alex archer turns up and dies.

70bc.
Cyrus asks us to cancel deals with GK. Agree.
Trade with Cyrus. Poly for archery.
Finish literature, research compass.
Riceport (RP) builds axe, starts Oracle.
RG builds axe, starts barracks.

55bc.
Connect marble, Oracle goes down to 10 turns.
Peace treaty with Monte.

40bc.
Whip barracks in RG (2 pop),

25bc.
Alex archer turns up and dies.
RG builds barracks, starts spear.
Worker starts chopping for oracle.

10bc. zzz

5ad. zzz.

20ad. zzz.

35ad.
Peace with alex.
Worker stops chopping for oracle (45 hammers).

50ad.
Complete Oracle (I don't believe it!!). Take machinery.
Cowboy City builds library (1 chop); assign 2 scientists,starts settler.
RP assign 2 scientists, start sword.

65ad.
Trade with Isabella. Fish for wine.
Trade with Alex. MC and poly for calendar and meditation.
Whiplibrary in Desertfish (3 pop!).
Barb galley turns up at Desertfish, blocks fish.

A map of the south (note barb galley)
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/independence65ad0000.jpg

Some demographics:
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/inddemog65ad0000.jpg

A power chart:
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/indpower65ad0000.jpg

Final thoughts.
Probably not a good move to assign scientists in RP if we want to build Glib.
Barb galley is a pain; DFwill probably need a new workboat and we'll have to build a galley to clear off barb galley (hopefully) and defend from further incursions.

We did fairly well with tech trades. Two more turns to compass; I'd suggest going straight to optics. We should get some very good trades for machinery, maybe even compass and MC will be tradeable.

In terms of diplomacy I've been trying to keep Isabella and Cyrus happy; at least they're half sane. :crazyeye:

A save:

Even though GNP shows 44 our research is 66 beakers/turn, income is 7 gold/turn.

Roster
pigswill:just played
craziivan: UP
remconius: on deck
stuge: off watch.

Stay at 15 turns per set for now; it seems about right.

The Oracle: :woohoo:

Ver' good, pigswill, ver' good!

Let's build some crossbows to whack the New World. Should we trade for construction to get 'pults? Some barb cities are bound to have walls.

Nice going on the Oracle!

Do we also want to go for the GLib?

Did we decide to play Prince or Monarch in the end.

gnp is maybe the raw commerce we get

oh i'm up
got the savegame and will most likely play later today

i think we can manage to destroy the city with the glib when we dont need it anymore

EDIT: We are on Monarch Difficulty
I can't decide whether to take another wonder or not ;)

Glib is certainly feasible but let's not go wonder crazy; we could still do with more units (crossbows sound good); maybe another city tho if we have Glib maybe we can tech ok with our current lot.
I seem tor emember reading somewhere on the forum that if you recapture your own cities they revert to you and you don't get a razing option; all our cities are too well established to be auto-razed even at pop 1.

Turn 0, 65 AD
Research: Optics in 2
Watersquare->banana cottage in Rivergems
Maximize production and growth in Riceport. The Great Library shall be ours!

Turn 1, 80 AD
Desertfish: Library->Barracks because we have no other cheap culture buildings available

Turn 2, 95 AD
Compass->Optics to start exploring

Turn 3, 110 AD
Riceport grows to size 7

Turn 4, 125 AD
Riceport: Sword->GL in 18

Turn 6, 155 AD
CC: Settler->Barracks

Turn 7, 170 AD
Isabella asks for Metal Casting, I don't want to give it to her, -1 :(
maybe I should make her more friendly with a favorable deal about Monotheism

Turn 8, 185 AD
Rivergems is infected with Confucianism

Turn 10, 215 AD
Ricejungle founded, the rice will be online soon, lighthouse is on its way
I hope that settler wasn't meant for the new world yet

Turn 12, 245 AD
Confucianism in Ricejungle

Turn 13, 260 AD
Rivergems: Spear->Axe

Turn 15, 290 AD
Christianity found in Edo

maybe we can get 4 great people before leaving with the GL
I decided against crossbows because we an't upgrade them to maces, and they are much more expensive(90>52)
I never used them and I don't know if they are worth it
I also never tried to autoraze a city that wasn't recently founded

Ready to play tonight...

On the way to Great Library - good stuff.
Desertfish has lost its fishing-nets - not so good but easily solved with a workboat and maybe a defensive galley. The extra food would allow us to run another couple of scientists.
We're now paying unit maintenance so that's something to bear in mind.
Maybe Rivergems might benefit from a library- not sure.
Overall another good set.

Crossbows are decent defensive units; str9 vs melee+first strike but not so hot on attacking.

We'll probably save astronomy for our first GS, so what should we research after optics?

Let's say we migrate before 1000 AD. How tough will the barbs in the New World be. Are we going to need maces and/or catapults? CS through feudalism is an option. Feud. gives us longbows and serfdom. Serfdom would be useful 'cos our workers will have lots to do around the new house.

In my test games I was up against archers in around 1000 AD and did well with axes and swords.

We need to do reconnaissance. I'll build an explorer and caravel to play Columbus. Just like in history! :D

Then we'll know what we are up against and what is the best spot for our capital.

Checked out the save. We ain't get health bonusses from fish and clams. wtf?
(Edit: we were getting healthy seafood in ad65 save).
Columbus sounds good.
Astronomy costs 4800 beakers on epic; GS will give us maybe 1800 towards that so we can start on astronomy straight away.

Is there another civ blocking the sea route?

I thought it was 3060 beakers for Astronomy from GS....

remconius: you've done the practice game so have hard data on GS for astronomy; I have to admit I was guessing (tut tut, serious loss of credibility). 3060 beakers still leaves c 1800 so better to research than use a second GS for the remaining beakers; I'm sure we could find a better use for a GS later. We should also be able to trade for most of missing techs anyway.

In terms of seafood I'm still guessing. No sign of routes being blocked. I did trade a fish for wine with Isabella, we also had a fish tile pillaged by barbs at the start of craziivan's set (or the end of mine). So we have no fish but we should have clams and don't (working clams tile, nothing on active trades).

We could do with a road between riceport and ricejungle. Might be worth thinking about whipping a workboat in desertfish once barracks is complete. I'm not sure if we need any more axes at this point.
Tell me if I'm interfering too much.

Pigswill, there is no such thing as interfering in a SG, as long as one discusses something. You've done a good job piloting this yeam so far.
I too checked out the save and we're exporting clams to Curys for sugar. I think
we'll be better off keeping that trade and hooking up the lost fishes at DF.

Preturn:
Rearrange capital for 1 more hammer.

305AD-Turn187
Worker moves to last forest of fishy1
Worker starts farm in JR.
Barracks completed, workboat started.

320AD-Turn188
Worker starts chop.

335AD-Turn189
Optics is researched. We finally start Astronomy!!
CC builds barracks, caravel started.

Isabelle wants us to declare on Monty, we decline.

350AD-Turn190
zzz

365AD-Turn191
zzz

380AD-Turn192
zzz

395AD-Turn193
Great Library arrives!! Science soars :)
RG starts Explorer

410AD-Turn194
Axe completed in RG, Sword started
Explorer and Caravel are whipped.

425AD-Turn195
Explorer and Caravel are completed. Both cities start Galley, to be upgraded later.
Worker starts road on farm.

440AD-Turn196
Alex wants to trade HBR for Alphabet. I laugh in his face! :lol:

455AD-Turn197
Start chop of forest near DF.
GS arrives and pops 2352 beakers into Astronomy... not sure how that works.. 16 turns left

470AD-Turn198
GK declares war on Cyrus.

485AD-Turn199
Caravel is heading west and spots coast!!

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0034.jpg

Then land:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0035.jpg

Oh no, it's isabelle:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0036.jpg

500AD-Turn200
zzz

515AD-Turn201
Explorer leaves boat to pop a hut. We get a map... that shows seville.


Notes:
-Dont forget to put explorer back on boat.
-Caravel can continue to head west and should see land pretty soon. Heading east might be faster but we can leave that to our galleons.
-After Astronomy, we should get Currency so we can make a nice bundle from trading!

And the save:139731

A solid set from remconius :)
Another interesting set of turns. We're heading in the right direction (tho I'm not sure about the caravel). Upgrading galley to galleon then sending galleon east sounds a much better idea than building another caravel; is it worth putting some troops on board?
Guess we were both wrong about GS beakers for astronomy. Re tech trades I'm wondering if its worth waiting to see if we can pick up construction and currency from trades, might simply have to wait for another civ to discover them to make them tradeable.
Is it worth running a couple of scientists elsewhere for another GS? 2 scientists would give 6gpp, riceport currently producing 16 gpp with 2 scientists; sounds a tricky equation; chances are riceport will outproduce the others. otoh scientists still produce 3 beakers each so something to consider when cities are reaching their caps.

stuge is up :cool:
pigswill is on deck

Checked out the save. We ain't get health bonusses from fish and clams. wtf?
(Edit: we were getting healthy seafood in ad65 save).
Columbus sounds good.
Astronomy costs 4800 beakers on epic; GS will give us maybe 1800 towards that so we can start on astronomy straight away.
oops i forgot to mention I sold our clams for sugar
didn't check if there are any health problems

the fishing net was ripped up by the galley in my first turn, the galley then disappeared, maybe the went after Cyrus' fishing nets

maybe we should reduce gpp output in riceport to allow the other cities to pop their GS and then switch off their scientists, and after that riceport can produce one more GS
I would not start "work" on a new GS in any city that has no GPP yet a water tile should be better then(food->worker)

EDIT: DAMN! I have just tested razing of size 1 cities, it does not work :( neither we nor the computer is autorazing that city (tested with rivergems) so the GLIB will benefit our enemies
on the good news side: Montezuma is willing to take all our cities, if he survives until our migration that might be an option since he is dead last anyway ;)

Got it!

I like the idea of selling our cities to Monty. He's probably quite far away, so reinforcements won't get there in time to stop us, when we raze all the no-longer-beneficial cottages. :devil:

Of course, if possible, we should sell our land in equal chunks to all our neighbourghs. My, that could instigate some quite bitter wars. :mischief:

Edited 'cos apparently I can't spell anymore when it's gone midnight.

Governor Stuge's reign 515-770

Inherit. Looking good. Hit enter.

Hit enter a couple times more. Nothing of interest happens during my first turns. Some MM and continue training land- and sea forces.

In 605, our clams for sugar-deal with Curys is cancelled. Apparently Genghis pillaged his source, so I cut him this deal.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n266/stuge_T/TradeCurys.jpg

He really wanted that marble bad. Perhaps he needs to re-do his palace? :lol:

Also in 605:

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n266/stuge_T/StraitsoftheNewWorld.jpg

There be the straits of the New World!

A few years later Columbus enters a tribal village and converts the inhabitants to our cause. They move out and give us an idea of what we're up against.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n266/stuge_T/Upagainst.jpg

Santa Maria sinks a primitive galley in the Gulf of the New World, suffering only minor damage. Unfortunately, our native scouts are butchered by savages. They shall be avenged.

In 635 Socrates, a great scientist, is born in RP. He is sent to daydream. After that I emphasized production in RP, anticipating the coming of galleons.

Astronomy is discovered in 680! I start running 0% science to upgarde our galleys. Soon thereafter the Pacifiers, three divisions of big men with big axes, are dispatched towards the New World. Research is set to currency. A general movement of troops and ships towards DF begins.

After that, it's again n.o.i, until Toku adopts theocracy. He might be gearing up against us. If thats the case, impeccable timing I must say. :mischief:

Zum Schluss, as the germans say, some informative screenies.

The soon to expire-America:

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n266/stuge_T/Nostalgia.jpg

Our new home:

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n266/stuge_T/YeNeweWorlde.jpg

Note the location of primitive villages.

And our colonization forces:

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n266/stuge_T/Troopdeployment.jpg

Notes:

Socrates wants to bulb drama, so put him aboard a galleon, he'll do more good post-migration.
RP is building a settler. It might be a good idea to build/whip a couple more. All of those barb cities won't be in ideal locations.
After all galleys have been upgrded, pump science rate to 100% to get currency. Then amass cash by what ever means.
The Pacifiers are about to land in the New World. Use them to pop guarded huts and to scout out targets for the swordsmen that are en route.
Sell/gift our cities to Monty asap. Then use our huge reserve of axemen near RG to pillage everything in sight. Building some suicide chariots for faster pillaging might be a good idea.
Don't spare the whip. We are (almost) good to go.

That's it. Have fun, pigswill. :cool:

Got it. Looked at the save. We've only one galley to upgrade, 3 galleons built, 2 building, total of 6 should be enough to get us across. So should be able to research currency soon. I'm tempted to trade for construction so we can build some cats. Still quite a bit of exploring to do in the new world.

We'll need to consider and discuss the mechanics of the Great Migration once we've got a bit more explored.

One or two more settlers probably, need to suss out current barb city placement first. Bound to need workers so I'll maybe focus on workers and cats first.

We should find a central good spot for the new capital. I think, in general the capital travels to the biggest remaining city.

That means, we whip cities down to 1 and gift them. We move units to the new world and capture/build at least one city. Preferably our capital which we keep big. If we capture another city we use the whip te reduce it in size. Then we declare on anyone who should send some units to take our empty capital, migrating our capital to the biggest city in the new world. We leave a few terrorists to take down towns after we left.

Shouldn't focus too much on workers. There are a plenty of them roaming the New World, ripe for picking...

start on currency as soon as possible, we'll need the coin and the commerce

in a new game that I play with my brother, the cities have more problems with whipping unhappiness than with regrowing their lost population :)
it's fun, I have never whipped so much before :p

1 worker per city should be enough

Agree, currency is the key to cash. AI dont have currency so each one is sitting on 200-300 coins.

Bring a few workers is an excellent way to jump start the new society.

I've played my set but won't have time to post the writeup coz I'm heading off to work soon. I should be able to write it up this evening.
I'll attach the save in case anyone's wondering where we've got to at 995ad.

I've got the save
but I am waiting for your report because I have no time to play tonight

A fairly long report coming up.

Turnlog

770ad.
Riceport(RP) changes settler to sword.
Ricejungle(RJ):whips sword.

785ad
Circumnavigation bonus:D
RJ:build sword, start worker,disband warrior.
Give Cyrus compass for construction,10G.
Give Alex compass for mono,270G.
Upgrade galley to galleon.
Change research to 80%.

800ad
Monte asks us to stop trading with Bella, declined politely.
Taosim FIDL (Genghis)
Columbus is attacked by 2 barb archers and survives.

815ad.
Hut-raiding. Axe v barb archer, 16%, dies. Axe v barb archer 94%,wins. 34gold.
Rivergems(RG) builds sword, starts cat.
RP builds sword, starts cat.
Add 2 scientists to RP; brings next GP in 20 turns instead of 32.

830ad.
Hut-raiding. Axe v barb warrior, 99%, wins! 43 gold.
Cowboy City(CC) whips galleon.

845ad.
CC builds galleon, starts cat.

860ad.
RJ whips worker.
Open borders with Alex.
Give Bella calendar for monarchy.

875ad
RJ build worker, starts worker.
Desertfish(DF) whips galleon.
RP builds cat, starts settler.

890ad.
DF builds galleon,starts settler.
CC builds cat, starts cat.
Hut-raiding. Sword v barb warrior ;99%;43 gold.

905ad.
RG builds cat, starts cat.

920ad.
Discover currency, research CoL. Research 80%.

935ad.
Hut-raiding. Unprotected. Hostile barbs.
RG whips cat.
CC whips cat.

950ad.
RG builds cat, starts crossbow.
CC builds cat, starts sword.

965ad.
DF whips settler.
RG whips crossbow.
CC whips sword.

980ad.
DF builds settler, starts cat (I think).
RG builds crossbow,starts cat.
CC builds sword,starts sword (I think)
Discover CoL, research 0%.
Columbus killed by barb sword getting too close to barb city.

995ad.
RG whips cat.
Give Bella CoL for 260G.
Give Tok lit for 100G.
Give Cyrus CoL for 170G+horseriding.
Give Genghis monarchy for 230G.

The Old World

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/TheOldWorld995ad0000.jpg

South America

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/SouthAmerica995ad0000.jpg

North America

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/NorthAmerica995ad0000.jpg

City Trading
Genghis: redout, no trading.
Bella: redout, no trading.
Tog: won't buy RG, redout rest.
Cyrus: won't buy any (but poss gift?)
Alex: won't but RG, redout rest.
Monte:won't buy any.

Save
Available above (post 148).

Next GP available in 9 turns (at 16gpp/turn) in RP; probably GS, could be prophet.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions, polite criticisms etc.;)

We've got 1311 gold in the bank, currently earning 50 gpt.

Army consist of 1 spear. 1 crossbow, 5 cats, 8 axes, 9 swords.
We've also got a settler (another building) and 3 workers (another building) and a GS.

South America is not the easiest dot-mapping exercise ever; all attempts welcome.

I was thinking that maybe the next 4 sets should be 10 turns long because this seems to the fiddliest part of the game coming up and would benefit from discussion.

can you explain your city trading table? (redout? won't buy?)

well it seems like you started the big buyout in our old, soon to be pillaged, lands :)

i think most barb cities in southern america can stay as they are, I'll place some dotmap signs when I play

redout= items redded out in trading table.
Won't buy means cities are in white in trade table but AI won't exchange them for gold.

so where should we build the capital?

It should be rather central (bottom of the North map, or top of the south map)

I also notice quite a few lakes, which give 3 food with the lighthouse if we build a coastal city. Could be some big cities using those.

A couple of suggestions from the Royal Mapmaking Foundation.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n266/stuge_T/SouthAmericaDots.jpg

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n266/stuge_T/NorthAmericaDots.jpg

The suggested location for the new capital is marked with a capital c. Note that almost every one of the primitive cities should be left intact. Only one needs to be razed and rebased to the coast. There is also a draft for northern America but further exploration is clearly necessary.

Also, should we authorize governor Craziivan to set the Great Migration into motion? The millenium is about to change and personally I think that the time has come. Carpe diem, gentlemen.

Good map stuge.

One general comment. There are quite a few lakes on the map which are all 3F 3C squares if we have a coastal city with a lighthouse. We should see if we can rearrange some cities to make more use of the lakes.

One more comment, the capital is a little far south, but I guess we could build the FP in North to compensate.

I would make our capital in the middle of south america if there is a good location
an then build the forbidden palace in central north america

I am not sure if I am able to do the right things for the great move
I think I'll grab some cities and ship our settlers and workers over
but OTOH 10 turns are luckily not enough to destroy the game ;)

BTW... does gifting cities to Monty have an impact on our relations to other civs?

I think we should whip the cities down to one and then gift them all to Monty, or split between Monty, Tokugawa and Cyrus. Then we declare on Alex, Toku or Monty and have him capture our last cities.

Meanwhile we should start shipping our troops to the New world and whipping up more.

We should make a plan for the migration... and agree on the dotmap. Maybe we should take a pause before we start moving across. If you do want to play now build forces and start moving troops. We dont need more than 3-4 galleosn I reckon.

This could be the best overall strategy during the migration:

Finish the current builds in our cities. Then load everything into galleons except for a few axes and use the remaining "excess" population to whip out crossbows/axes/chariots. Gift/sell all the cities you can and then declare on Toku and whomever you gifted cities to. And then pillage to your heart's content. Inflict maximum damage with the troops left behind. There's no need to get them out of there.

Meanwhile, found Washington on the corn/gold/floodplains spot. Ideal timing would be one turn before our last city in the Old World is captured but don't take undue risk. This is the most critical part of the migration!
After the founding of Washington proceed to capture those three barb cities in the south. Then we'll have a solid base of cities from which to start settling the rest of South America.

what stuge said sounds ok for me
I'll start now and check here after some turns

I haven't made a detailed turn by turn report this time
I sent 4 or 5 galleons full of units to the new world, whipped some cities to 1
and I lost two axes in northamerica while trying to explore :(
the new pictures with heavy dotmapping:

south america
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/1272/civ4screenshot0014cw4.jpg

north america
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/2138/civ4screenshot0013ah7.jpg

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/5093/civ4screenshot0012hb1.jpg

I uploaded a save with my dotmaps and a save without if you want to play with a clean screen ;)

hm I forgot to photograph the resources

EDIT: we are now @6 Years per turn
omg we are down to 6gpt @ 100% taxes we need to complete this transaction ASAP!

I'd advise against trading anything with Monte;he's down to one city full of units; even if we gave him cities he couldn't afford distance maintenance. Maybe give Cowboy City and Desertfish to Cyrus then declare on Tok. Or maybe just declare on Tok and let him capture the lot (this could make him too powerful however). We can pillage our own cities but don't get any cash so need to wait for cities to be captured before pillaging.

Like stuge's dotmap; maybe we could do with another east city, either marble/floodplains or fish/pig.
I think that we take the new world in two halves; either north or south first; then maybe courthouses so we can build FP in the second half. Maybe wait for craziivan to play a few turns to finish exploring north before making a decision on this.

Edit: cool stuff from craziivan; losing a couple of axes is just one of those things that happen in barb territory.
Worth considering that city maintenance in south america during the transition will probably be less than unit maintenance if we pile them all into the new city.

Remconius is UP
Stuge is on deck
10 turns per set for this round.

got it!

Going to Migrate!

Scary!!

and scary it was!

Will write the full report tomorrow, but here is the short story:

We migrated!

I built Washington, but as I did that the whole Native american community from the North decided to beat me up. I had to halt expansion of the south and reinforce Washington. We scraped through...

We are now on the other continent with 3 cities and a nice force. We have some forces in the old land to pillage