No butthead this time, since both the aggressor and the victim wont be in Paris on the pitch on Sep 6th for France - Italy qualification match for Euro 2008.
Since July 9 Final (Italy 1 - 1 France and Italian PK victory) both teams played two matches :

Italy 0 - 2 Croatia
Italy 1 - 1 Lituania (Euro 2008)

Bosnia 1 - 2 France
Georgia 0 - 3 France (Euro 2008)

My bet is 1-1 (no PKs hopefully this time ;))

Note that in the death group for Euro 2008, Italy will face another team wanting a revenge : Ukraine.

I'm driving past the Stade de France regularly these days, and each time I think of tomorrow's match. This could be a very good match to watch. I take it as a revenge personally, even though this is not a revenge per se. But beating the world champions 2 months after their title sounds like something we should try with all our energy.

My bet is a clean victory for France. :)

Well, if we consider that the WC final was the italian revenge for the 1998 quarter finals and Euro 2000, then it's now even and you have to start a new cycle of vendettas from scratch now. :p

Well, if we consider that the WC final was the italian revenge for the 1998 quarter finals and Euro 2000, then it's now even and you have to start a new cycle of vendettas from scratch now. :p
That's why there is usually no such thing as "revenge". But consider this : out of the 11 starters in the French team today, 9 started the WC final 2 months ago (less for Italy, I think). The 2 players out are Zidane (retired) and Barthez (no club therefore no French team for him). Plus the fact that it happens 2 months after last match, a new record in the WC history.

My bet is a clean victory for France. :)
:goodjob:

3-1 is the final score. An outstanding match by France, well done guys !! :) A very good spirit, the desire to play and score and win... Italy have to shake themselves a bit, otherwise they may not qualify for the Euro 2008. :eek:

Anyway, I don't care if others think I'm being chauvinistic, but here it is : tonight France proved that the WC final was an accident and that we're a better team overall. ;)

Plus, we can defeat the world champions without Zidane, and that is very good news for the future, that's the first time I watch a match without Zidane without thinking he has to come back. God can retire in peace now, thanks for all you did. :king: Ribéry is replacing you quite well.

Just a question, who was playing for Italy?

Just a question, who was playing for Italy?
France : Grégory Coupet, Willy Sagnol, Lilian Thuram, William Gallas, Eric Abidal, Claude Makelele, Patrick Vieira (cap.), Franck Ribéry (puis Louis Saha, 88e), Florent Malouda, Sidney Govou (puis Sylvain Wiltord, 75e) et Thierry Henry.

Ent: Raymond Domenech.

Italie: Gianluigi Buffon, Gianluca Zambrotta, Fabio Cannavaro (cap), Andrea Barzagli, Fabio Grosso, Gennaro Gattuso, Andrea Pirlo, Franco Semioli (puis David Di Michele, 54e), Simone Perrotta, Antonio Cassano (puis Filippo Inzaghi, 73e) et Alberto Gilardino (puis Daniele De Rossi, 86e).

Ent: Roberto Donadoni.
The French coach thinks we were close to the perfect match. And he hints that within 2 months, we beat 2 different world champions : Brazil in QF (when they were still WC), and Italy today (in an official match too). :D

I'm very dissapointed by my Italians. And they were using their good players too. Very, very dissapointing.

I'm very dissapointed by my Italians. And they were using their good players too. Very, very dissapointing.
Well, kinda confirmed what I've been thinking during the whole summer : Italy are "small" world champions. They need to get back on track and soon, otherwise they won't qualify and everybody will forget their performance (already darkened (neutral sense) by the Zidane-Materazzi affair, unfortunately :( ).

Well, kinda confirmed what I've been thinking during the whole summer : Italy are "small" world champions.

You totally lost me there... :confused:
Italy deservedly won the world cup, but their accomplishment becomes less meaningfull because they have 1 point from two matches in European championships qualification?
2 completely seperate things, IMHO...


They need to get back on track and soon, otherwise they won't qualify and everybody will forget their performance (already darkened (neutral sense) by the Zidane-Materazzi affair, unfortunately :( ).

No offense Krys, but that blemish is squarely on the French side of that match. Zidane lost his head (no pun intended). Materazzi just did what happens a million times in every game and is never punished. The only reason Materazzi got suspended is because of all the hype around it, and FIFA has to do something or they'd look like a weak organization. Which we all know they really are, otherwise they'd enforce the rules on insults, etc., for all games instead of just the final of the world cup.

You totally lost me there... :confused:
Italy deservedly won the world cup, but their accomplishment becomes less meaningfull because they have 1 point from two matches in European championships qualification?
2 completely seperate things, IMHO...
OK, I have to make you understand what I mean then (even though you'll probably not agree). I said "confirmed", so that's what I've been thinking all along. Italy deserved their title alright, no problem about that. They are world champions, nobody denies that and the fact they deserved it (great, great defense, huuuge GK, very good midfield, great coach, very good confidence, etc...). The thing is, I think France weren't inferior to Italy, and that in the final we were even better : we were dominated in the 1st half, before dominating during the rest of the game (maybe even after ZZ left !!). It's a fact that winning a WC over a penalty shoot-out is inferior to winning, say, 1-0 or 2-0 or 3-0 or 2-1 or 3-1... The same would be said if France had won the penalty shoot-out (I was already sad that the game ended in a tie, since that meant we couldn't win the game proper anymore). By "small" world champions (a harsh word, but hey, I'm Latin and French, can't help it), I mean "won through a penalty shoot-out after being mostly dominated". Nothing more. Yesterday's match proved me that Italy were lucky in Berlin.

No offense Krys, but that blemish is squarely on the French side of that match. Zidane lost his head (no pun intended). Materazzi just did what happens a million times in every game and is never punished. The only reason Materazzi got suspended is because of all the hype around it, and FIFA has to do something or they'd look like a weak organization. Which we all know they really are, otherwise they'd enforce the rules on insults, etc., for all games instead of just the final of the world cup.
Darkie, you can't offend me, please speak up. :D I disagree a little. This headbutt affair is still well alive in Italy. No sooner than this week, Materazzi claimed he had still not got a word from ZZ about it. During the summer, my parents flew with Alitalia to Sicily ; on the plane, it was mostly the headbutt on the TV screen... Whether you want it or not (I personally am still sad that this affair happened), the headbutt is what people will remember from the final in the end. The fact that the game ended 1-1 over 2 set pieces probably helps it too. I for one would have preferred Italy to win 2-0 with no incident, and that's what I had been saying before the match ("please, no penalty shoot-out !!").

I predicted French victory since the day after the WC final, and I was right.

Basically the factors were:
-All of our players are low on condition (Serie A hasn't started yet, very different from English and French premiere leagues which have been playing for one month).
-Some key players were missing (Totti, Toni, Nesta, Materazzi, Camoranesi, Del Piero)
-There is a new, less experienced coach
-Some of the players who played yesterday may be well fed after such a huge victory. I know that in 1983, the Italian team of 1982 world cup winners lost almost all their games 0-3 or 0-4. I hope it doesn't happen again, considering that the coach has changed too, and is free to let play just players with high motivation, unlike Bearzot in post-1982

Yesterday's match proved me that Italy were lucky in Berlin.


Indeed Italy was lucky in Berlin.
As lucky as France in Rotterdam in 2000.

-All of our players are low on condition (Serie A hasn't started yet, very different from English and French premiere leagues which have been playing for one month).
You're right. Still, Patrick Vieira was huge last night, and he plays in Italy... ;)

-Some key players were missing (Totti, Toni, Nesta, Materazzi, Camoranesi, Del Piero)
Zidane, Zidane, Zidane... Also Barthez, even if you want to laugh (I don't). But the good stuff is that we may now be ready to play without Zidane, which hasn't been the case until now, and which left the French in doubt as to the after-Zidane. We just had to wait for the right moment. :) And what's more : we didn't use the standard 4-4-2, but the very "WC" 4-2-3-1, with Ribéry replacing the Master. Very interesting...

-There is a new, less experienced coach
Domenech is starting to have something. It seems Lippi was huge. We'll see.

-Some of the players who played yesterday may be well fed after such a huge victory. I know that in 1983, the Italian team of 1982 world cup winners lost almost all their games 0-3 or 0-4. I hope it doesn't happen again, considering that the coach has changed too, and is free to let play just players with high motivation, unlike Bearzot in post-1982
At the moment, I'm doubtful Italy will qualify for the Euro 2008. Ukraine and Scotland will want to go through. But it's still a long way (to the top if you wanna rock'n roll), and Italy is an eternal team, so we just have to wait for them to make their comeback. ;)

Indeed Italy was lucky in Berlin.
As lucky as France in Rotterdam in 2000.
We were lucky in R'dam indeed. The difference is that we scored 2 valid goals and not on set pieces. As for who played better, I admit my mind is failing a bit ; I should watch that game again. I remember that both teams were equal in 1998, so there too we were very lucky. ;)

I think it's cool we're scoring in the game again (no more free kicks or PKs as we tend to during the WC).

The thing is, I think France weren't inferior to Italy, and that in the final we were even better : we were dominated in the 1st half, before dominating during the rest of the game (maybe even after ZZ left !!).


I can not agree with that. Italy was closest to a second goal (Materazzi's second header) than France ever was. Zidane was being contained (please note that I did not say controlled) by Gattuso. Pirlo was allowed to control the tempo of the game.
IMHO it was a fairly even match, but the edge was definately on Italy's side.


Darkie, you can't offend me, please speak up. :D I disagree a little. This headbutt affair is still well alive in Italy. No sooner than this week, Materazzi claimed he had still not got a word from ZZ about it. During the summer, my parents flew with Alitalia to Sicily ; on the plane, it was mostly the headbutt on the TV screen... Whether you want it or not (I personally am still sad that this affair happened), the headbutt is what people will remember from the final in the end. The fact that the game ended 1-1 over 2 set pieces probably helps it too. I for one would have preferred Italy to win 2-0 with no incident, and that's what I had been saying before the match ("please, no penalty shoot-out !!").

It's not about if the headbutt affair is still alive in Italy. Off course it is. As a result of that affair Italy had a starting defender suspended for an offense that is usually ignored by the entire world.
It is about who made the headbutt. That is the blemish on the final. And that guy was, unfortunately, French.

I can not agree with that. Italy was closest to a second goal (Materazzi's second header) than France ever was. Zidane was being contained (please note that I did not say controlled) by Gattuso. Pirlo was allowed to control the tempo of the game.
IMHO it was a fairly even match, but the edge was definately on Italy's side.
I'll go watch that match soon (now I can, I feel free !). And I'll come back with a solid and cold opinion (maybe not cold ;) ). BTW, don't tell me that ZZ wasn't close to score the 2-1 with his... head, during the extra-time. I'm still amazed that he missed it (I was so sure he was about to score against Spain and he did, like if it was impossible for him to miss a clear opportunity).

It's not about if the headbutt affair is still alive in Italy. Off course it is. As a result of that affair Italy had a starting defender suspended for an offense that is usually ignored by the entire world.
It is about who made the headbutt. That is the blemish on the final. And that guy was, unfortunately, French.
My point was just that the headbutt was a highlight of the final. Definitely. Go ask a random guy in the street, and tell him about the final, I bet you one of the first things he'll remember is the headbutt. I know, it's not pretty, and no one wanted that, but that's a fact. Zidane's Panenka and Materazzi's goal on CK aren't as important as this headbutt in terms of collective memory.

As for ZZ, don't worry. The headbutt may be THE highlight of the final, I doubt it will be THE highlight of ZZ's career.

Darkness, you can watch the match again, Italian player were completly exhausted by the middle of the second half. Even at 11 vs 10 they were not attacking anymore though we know it's Italia's traditional playstyle to control the match by staying in it's side of the pitch waiting for good counter attack opportunities.

Italy deservedly won the world cup, but their accomplishment becomes less meaningfull because they have 1 point from two matches in European championships qualification?

Frankly, we can't say a final won thru PKs, then a defeat at home against Croatia, a draw at home against Lituania and a defeat in Paris against the finalist of the WC and with a few dives (one yellow carded IIRC) makes a very credible world champion.

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree Italy is Word Champion, but I think we have to keep things in perspective. BTW, FIFA recorded the 9th July match as a draw. ;)

Darkness, you can watch the match again, Italian player were completly exhausted by the middle of the second half.

And France couldn't even score in the last 20 minutes of regulation and and 30 minutes of overtime against exhausted players? ;)

Even at 11 vs 10 they were not attacking anymore though we know it's Italia's traditional playstyle to control the match by staying in it's side of the pitch waiting for good counter attack opportunities.


Did you even watch the WC?
You do realize that Lippi's Italian squad played more attacking football than any other Italian squad in the history of football?


I am not against the French national team. Hell, I am not even supporting the Italian team. I was actually rooting for France during the Final. But that didn't stop me from seeing that Italy played a very solid game, and definately deserved the WC. What happens now with the EC qualifications has nothing to do with the WC...

kryszcztov, seriously, you're only hurting yourself in keeping to think this way. You won't ever change anything about it.

There are tons of great teams which have failed miserably to win the World Cup. Last year's France is one of them. Granted, Maradona's Argentina deserved the WC in 1990... so what ? They've screwed up ! Same goes for Cruyff's Netherlands in 1974, Puskas' Hungary in 1954 or Platini's France in 1982. All those teams didn't succeed to be there at the moment they needed to be there. Hence they all failed miserably, and that's the only thing we will remember.

Get over it Krys.

Of course I know they surprisingly played towards the offense, I was beeing sarcastic in this sentence.
I don't think there was as much difference between the two teams on July 9 as there was yesterday, and I tend to think Italians were more satisfied with the result beieng set on PKs than the French looking at the match again.
Anyway, I hope Italia and Greece will get thru the qualifying stage to have both the world champions and european champions at the next euro.

And France couldn't even score in the last 20 minutes of regulation and and 30 minutes of overtime against exhausted players? ;)
Answer A : Hey, I remind you that they are world champions, those exhausted players !! :lol: So no, it wasn't that easy, because beating tired players is OK, but beating tired world champions is another thing.

Answer B : So, Italy were completely exhausted and France in top form ? Maybe some nuances to add there...

Answer C : That's the law of football. Sometimes a much better team doesn't succeed against a weaker team, sometimes luck isn't there, sometimes it takes time, much time... And here we had 2 very defensive teams, not offensive teams.

Answer D : Obiwan Kenobi. :D

Choose your answer.

You do realize that Lippi's Italian squad played more attacking football than any other Italian squad in the history of football?
I hardly consider that an achievement. :mischief: Doesn't say much itself about the offensivity of the Italian team.

I am not against the French national team. Hell, I am not even supporting the Italian team. I was actually rooting for France during the Final. But that didn't stop me from seeing that Italy played a very solid game, and definately deserved the WC. What happens now with the EC qualifications has nothing to do with the WC...
Speaking of myself, if France played badly, I wouldn't be here claiming we were good. Of course I try to defend my team. But only through logical arguments (and a bit of supporter-ism of course !).

kryszcztov, seriously, you're only hurting yourself in keeping to think this way. You won't ever change anything about it.

There are tons of great teams which have failed miserably to win the World Cup. Last year's France is one of them. Granted, Maradona's Argentina deserved the WC in 1990... so what ? They've screwed up ! Same goes for Cruyff's Netherlands in 1974, Puskas' Hungary in 1954 or Platini's France in 1982. All those teams didn't succeed to be there at the moment they needed to be there. Hence they all failed miserably, and that's the only thing we will remember.

Get over it Krys.
Marla, I'm not hurting myself. I feel pretty OK today actually. :D The final is now over in my heart, and things look bright for the future, for we have a superb team. Yesterday we had joy, like this was a Cup match, where it was only a qualifier, and for that I thank the French team. We couldn't have expected more in this September month. We lost the WC, but I'm still up to watch some good football, and that is what counts at the end of the day.

Anyway, I hope Italia and Greece will get thru the qualifying stage to have both the world champions and european champions at the next euro.
Hear, hear !! :eek: Didn't think of that combined. That'd be pretty weird... Meh, my 2 favourite countries of the Ancient Era... :crazyeye: