Please discuss your ideas about Melee Units.

How about a UU for Rome. A bronze swordsman replacing axeman as axeman skin looks more like a gladiator.

Also can we change a Maceman into a Maceman not Flailman as it is atm?

Also to make game more tactical, lets give spearmans, pikemans 20% disadvantagemant vs melee units, as it is really hard to fight close range whith pike, spear a bit easier.

A question about spearmen? Why is it tthat otther melee units get bonus's against them and they seem to have a disadvantage against other meelee units. I mean I know some about modern warfare, not so much about the ancient but, wouldn't a well trained spear unit be able to impalle their enemy before lets say, said axeman or swordsman would even get close enough to graze their sheilds with their weapon. Logically and most likely historically in general a spearman should defeat an axeman etc... Well I guess sense this is somewhat implementedd withh the more elite Phalanx type of spearman, at least they get a bonus for melee,, and reightfully so sense we know their weapons were'nt too rudiimentary compared to their foes and, we know for damn sure that at least early on they were suporior to any foe who they would enter battle against. Guess I'm asking to reconsider,, not necessarily change their ability but definately take a look at it.... I know a good swordsman could break a spearman and all that blah... anyway just a thought

Stabbing attacks are easier to dodge, and if you dodge one attack from a spearman you will be able to get close enough for them to not have room to swing their spear. And not enough time to pull it back for another lunge. Especially given that spearmen were usually in tight formations.

I think that axemen get this bonus because most spear shafts were made of wood, and could be easily cut by an axe, meaning a spearman would be severely disadvantaged.

In that light, the penalties in melee combat are well justified, but it fails to take into account the reach of their weapon. It think that the melee penalties are fine, and should perhaps even be increased, but spearmen should get a first strike to account for their being able to hit the enemy first.

Spearmen are not meant for melee combat anyway. They are for anti cavalry duties.

Pretty much my sentiment as well, though I never use them as the Americans... mounted units? what mounted units? I have no horsies to make mounted units over on this side of the pond.

@ mind

Yes axeman have disadvantage vs spearman as 2 handned axe and no shield makes it eaiy ti kill.
But know this, spear when hitting human flash gets stuck in it and it takes some time to get it out. Also spear is long, when attacked will get past its tip he can just use his sword, axe to hit the spear. It wont break spear down, but make a shock that might couse spearman to drop his weapon. Also shield is not only to block targets, it you rish whith shield and bach enemy spear whith it, you will disarm him and knock him down. I know how it is dont, once said im in Knight brotherhood and i do a lots of fights. Mostly in armor to prevent health damage, but we fight against differant weapons.

Best weapon, and easiest in use is sword (broad sword) whith shield, It has blade all over, has a tip and is good to thurst, and quite heavy to do some damage vs breastplate.

Waraxe (one handned) is good for 1 vs 1, as its heavy and it does lots of damage to shield and armor if parriet. One hit in breast plate and your down, still a life and not bleading, but your down and like where i am.

Two-handened axe - Need real power to use, as its mostly to take a swing and watch if you hit or not. Takes much strength to parry it whithout getting knockedback. In tournaments (whith wooden weapons that have led parts to make em heavy as real weapons) battleaxe man win a macth by 3 knockdown in 8 swings. Its weakness is lack of shield and axes are bad for very close distance, as its hard to use it. War axe is better in close range as you have shield to keep up the distance.

As for spear. Well i never used spear. I was using halabard (right spelled?) and pike. Pike is REALLY HEAVY and REALLY long. Like 220% of users height. Its top is big to pirce all kinds of armor and it does not get stuck in armor and human flash, but when u block it whith shield, the pike pirces the shield and gets a bit stuck in it, witch is enought for expirianced knight to disarm the pikeman.
As for halabard, its 170% of my height. Its about same weight as pike, but as its shorter the weight has smaller impact on your muscles. Its the best defansive weapon. Can be used as both spear vs mounted units and as Battle axe vs foot units, also you can pull the stick closer and have a war axe. Some halaberders had a wooden kite shield on his back, when halabardier pulls the stick back to make a 1 handened weapon, we gets that wooden kite shield and is good in close range. But to make this it really requires backup and time.

Mace is close to axe, how ever is more knockdown weapon than axe. Mace is best uned to hit arms and legs and head, not chest as it is pointles vs breast plate. Mace and axes are also limited only to chops and swings witch are easy to block (harder to stay standing). As we in brouther hood tested maces we discovered they were used more to knockdown, confuse and knock uncoucious enemies by hitting head, Break shoulders by hiting pauldrons and shoulders, break legs by hitting arm plates, and same whith legs.

Flails are the harderst to hit wepaons EVER as when you hit, enemy need only to block chain not the ball. Also you can block flail by hiiting chain whith your hand, this way you can disarm the flailman. Flail is also weak in close range. But neither do i or others in my brotherhood can actually use this weapon well.

Twohandned sword - its good only vs lightly armored As it doen not have the power as battleaxe, is heavy, hard to swing, easy to block, but very hard to stay standing. Weak in close range. Twohandned sword is best effective when you just stand on some hill and swing this sword, who ever comes near is knocked down, but 2 enemies are enough to make 2h swordsman a carcass.

Samurai weapon, well its kind of strange. If your not skilled whith it, you will break the sword at first strike at armor. You will cut through it thou. Japan weapon was made to swiftly cut through armor, and is mostly a counter attack weapon, in while yuo parry enemy attack, you contron his weapon. By controling his wepaon you control his mainhand, controling his mainhand, you may control his torso and turn him this way so he can not block whith shield and have his weapon under your control (this needs long practice and kendo dont teach this, as kendo is more a sport that war art. However when i was in Japan i was shown such tricks from Daito-ryu family line of Takeda, thou i can use them like once in every 10 tries), and what you do is just cut, katana will cut through most of armors, but try not to aim at plate but spaces betwean each plates.

I always liked to use 2 short swords, but its too hard to fight whith them. They are perfect for close range, you just use em both as bucklers, bet close to enemy and thurst through his armor. Short sword can pirce it.

Really try to use some weapons and fight whith others, see how hard and easy is to block, and how hard is to hit, not mentioning how tireing fighting is even whith no armor.

Massed spears in a Greek/Macedonian phalanx were effective even against Roman legionaires as long as their flanks were protected. The problem with a phalanx was once you were able to flank it (or God help you get behind it) then it was pretty much all over for the phalanx. Also it required a lot of drill and practice to get the men to perform as one mass body.

Rember that Roman legioneres had "turtle" formation.

And most importaltly - who won ? Phalanx or legioner ?

Rember that Roman legioneres had "turtle" formation.

And most importaltly - who won ? Phalanx or legioner ?
They did not win as often (especially early on) as people think. In fact the great battle (the name escapes me at the moment) that pitted a crack Roman legion against an equally elite Greek phalanx, and the Romans were losing quite badly because of poor tactics by the Roman commander. He was attacking up a hill against the Greek center. Unfortunately for the Greeks was that an order to "refuse the flank" - (withdrawing your left or right flank at a perpendicular to the main line) was not given in a timely manner. This allowed the here to fore desperate legion the opportunity to flank the line. They still would not have won if the Greek commander had ordered his skirmishers to volley and for his cavalry to charge into the advancing (but disordered Romans). The famous Testudo (turtle or tortoise) as speed of the advance was more important than protection against thrown missiles. Battles often turn not just on superior tactics, arms and/or fighting spirit. Often they turn on simple things like being in the right place at the right time. Even though the Legion was a more flexible and robust entity than a phalanx; no Roman commander took them for granted especially if he was going against an experienced opponent on unfavorable ground. I often play Rome Total War on multiplayer and the core of my army are always phalanxes with skirmishers and cavalry in reserve; along with a couple of regiments of sword/shield wielding infantry to protect those vulnerable flanks. Often my most inexperienced opponents (I hate the word Nooob, everyone is a nooob at one point or another) especially if they are playing as Rome will try to attack along the line, instead of concentrating on flanking me and/or otherwise trying to out manuver my army. What happens is that the cream of my opponents army (Legionaires) approaches hurl their spears and then attack my center. My archers are raining arrows on them as they do this; after one of two futile charges the Romans have suffered 40% casualities, whereas I have suffered only about 5% casualities. And what happens next is that like any army in the world at any time that suffers such disproportionate casualty rates.....the Romans begin to waver, I order my phalanxes foward at the walk...and the Legions break and run. My cavalry is loosed for the clean up. Even with an experienced opponent it is very difficult to pull off a successful flanking manuever. Yes the Romans were better, but not to the point where they could win a battle by just showing up.:)

That's what I was thinking. I love Rome:Total War for that reason. My forces under Rome are usually 1/4 infantry 1/4 archery 1/2 cavalry... infantry gets up and basic screams "Hey you! OVER HERE!" to get their attention while my cav spreads out for flanking/enveloping... once the enemies move to engage the infantry, I reorganize my infantry for optimal performance on the terrain while my missile support whittles them down. Once I have them engaged, the cavalry moves in from the flanks/rear in a headlong charge... I usually break man-for-man even sized armies in the first rush. I take 5-10% casualties, they take about 50-60% in the first series of charges... and many battles, I end up around 10-15% losses and them at 90-100%

That's what I was thinking. I love Rome:Total War for that reason. My forces under Rome are usually 1/4 infantry 1/4 archery 1/2 cavalry... infantry gets up and basic screams "Hey you! OVER HERE!" to get their attention while my cav spreads out for flanking/enveloping... once the enemies move to engage the infantry, I reorganize my infantry for optimal performance on the terrain while my missile support whittles them down. Once I have them engaged, the cavalry moves in from the flanks/rear in a headlong charge... I usually break man-for-man even sized armies in the first rush. I take 5-10% casualties, they take about 50-60% in the first series of charges... and many battles, I end up around 10-15% losses and them at 90-100%

I hear you. Cannot wait for Medieval Total War II and the mods that will go with it. In case you have not already tried these Rome Total War mods, these two are really the best IMHO: Rome Total Realism (sounds familiar huh?) and Europa Babaracum (despite the Europa part it includes factions from the Nubians all the way east to the Indian subcontinent. Excellent mods:goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob:

@ Ankenaton

Note that Greek army was not Spear units only. Archers and swordsman (kopis in TR) were also presant, and this might made Legionares sux.

How ever Phalanx/Hoplites units were better equiped than normal spearman, but their victories were mostly achived by commanders tactics and Greek strategy. Still if legionaries will hava bonus vs spearman (including phalanx), it will be easier to defeat a spearman than Phalanx. Also if Phanalx will have Great Leader will recive some bonuses, that might give Phalanx advantage over legionares even whith their bonus vs spearman.

I say each unit should have their own set of advantages vs some units and their disadvantages vs some units.
For intance:

Swordsman: str 6
vs Archers: +20% (archers range is low, and swordsman once in close range have real advantage)
vs Longbowman +5% (long range, still once in close range they are superior)
vs musketman +15% (as for slow reload and inacuracy and lack of equipment)
vs spearman +20%
vs mounted -10% (horman can easilly attack and retreat giving no chance of damaging them)
vs mounted arches -20% (horses are fater, ranged, but inacurate and hoses get tired eventually)
vs UU -10% (lets say that every regular unit will have an disadvantage vs Unique Units, as UU are specially trained and equipped)

dude rtw has mods where do you go to get them

@ Ankenaton

Note that Greek army was not Spear units only. Archers and swordsman (kopis in TR) were also presant, and this might made Legionares sux.

How ever Phalanx/Hoplites units were better equiped than normal spearman, but their victories were mostly achived by commanders tactics and Greek strategy. Still if legionaries will hava bonus vs spearman (including phalanx), it will be easier to defeat a spearman than Phalanx. Also if Phanalx will have Great Leader will recive some bonuses, that might give Phalanx advantage over legionares even whith their bonus vs spearman.

I say each unit should have their own set of advantages vs some units and their disadvantages vs some units.
For intance:

Swordsman: str 6
vs Archers: +20% (archers range is low, and swordsman once in close range have real advantage)
vs Longbowman +5% (long range, still once in close range they are superior)
vs musketman +15% (as for slow reload and inacuracy and lack of equipment)
vs spearman +20%
vs mounted -10% (horman can easilly attack and retreat giving no chance of damaging them)
vs mounted arches -20% (horses are fater, ranged, but inacurate and hoses get tired eventually)
vs UU -10% (lets say that every regular unit will have an disadvantage vs Unique Units, as UU are specially trained and equipped)

except i think the swordsman would have to get in close range first before actually attacking archers. A group of longbowmen would heavily damage swordsman before they get in even close. So then swordsman would die before reching the longbowmen.

@ Ankenaton

Note that Greek army was not Spear units only. Archers and swordsman (kopis in TR) were also presant, and this might made Legionares sux.

How ever Phalanx/Hoplites units were better equiped than normal spearman, but their victories were mostly achived by commanders tactics and Greek strategy. Still if legionaries will hava bonus vs spearman (including phalanx), it will be easier to defeat a spearman than Phalanx. Also if Phanalx will have Great Leader will recive some bonuses, that might give Phalanx advantage over legionares even whith their bonus vs spearman.

I say each unit should have their own set of advantages vs some units and their disadvantages vs some units.
For intance:

Swordsman: str 6
vs Archers: +20% (archers range is low, and swordsman once in close range have real advantage)
vs Longbowman +5% (long range, still once in close range they are superior)
vs musketman +15% (as for slow reload and inacuracy and lack of equipment)
vs spearman +20%
vs mounted -10% (horman can easilly attack and retreat giving no chance of damaging them)
vs mounted arches -20% (horses are fater, ranged, but inacurate and hoses get tired eventually)
vs UU -10% (lets say that every regular unit will have an disadvantage vs Unique Units, as UU are specially trained and equipped)
I agree with your propositions; and believe me when I play as a Greek/Macedonian/Ptolemaic General in RTW I use a mix of troop types: 50% phalanx; 25% sword/shield troops; 15% missile troops; and the remainder cavalry (10%). With this mix I am able to conquer the known world. :lol:
But seriously outside of a game, the Roman legion was the best military formation in the ancient world. In the proper hands a legion is unstoppable when pitted against comparable opponents.

dude rtw has mods where do you go to get them

@Donkey Puncher
@Storm
Go to RomeTotalRealism.net for one of them. Others go to the main Sega site; go to RTW; then click on links; there should be about 3 or 4 forum sites listed like SCC where you can download the mods. The vanilla RTW has too many fantasy elements, but the mods really enhance the look and strategy. Send me a private message concerning your search as I do not want to tie up the board with this. Too bad your a Cowboys fan. :lol:

@ Spartan

1) my bad, tought that swords man is mounted (typing 1 thinking 2 :))
2) you did forget defancive bonuses from longbow ?
3) Longbowmans Will defeat them before engaiging melee. (foot troops run 350m/s, whith no armor, but Longbows can ctually retreat a few meters betwean each wave) And that their first attack bonus.

Some more great units are in circulation.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=185826
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=185968

The foot soldier would be a great addition to the European armies. Replace swordsman perhaps? Problem its a medieval unit, not an ancient one. Can other units update as eras pass, like great people do? That would solve this problem.

The warrior monk could be an extra unit for Judaism and Christianity. Enabled by a monastery, change the name to Zealot or Fanatic. Or since every religion has its zealots and has had them in the past, make it open to all religions as a second unit. Christian zealot, Judean zealot, Zoroastrian zealot etc etc.

The dob dob unit could be the second uu for buddhism and taoism.

Some more great units are in circulation.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...06#post4537806
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=185968

The foot soldier would be a great addition to the European armies. Replace swordsman perhaps? Problem its a medieval unit, not an ancient one. Can other units update as eras pass, like great people do? That would solve this problem.

The warrior monk could be an extra unit for Judaism and Christianity. Enabled by a monastery, change the name to Zealot or Fanatic. Or since every religion has its zealots and has had them in the past, make it open to all religions as a second unit. Christian zealot, Judean zealot, Zoroastrian zealot etc etc.

The dob dob unit could be the second uu for buddhism and taoism.

Hey Los Tirano, Houman wants us to post more of our zealotry commentary in the sub-forum; as what we wrote in the old thread will be forgotten after a couple of pages of CTD's. :p

Arrr, alright matey. Here be the dob dob unit that would fit well as the second uu for taoism and buddhism instead of them having zealots that dont look asian. Naturally im talking about the sword wielding monks, which did exist to guard temples and the area surrounding them from surly land-lubbers.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=170774

Question: what stats should these zealots have? Should the stats differ between the zealots off different religions? i.e. buddhists more defensive?

well , here it is , also not certain if it's implented or suggested , so in simple how bout' give the legioner the ability to bulit forts ?
them romans were master of siege and barricades and i think it's very realistic to add this ability

what say you ? :p

Arrr, alright matey. Here be the dob dob unit that would fit well as the second uu for taoism and buddhism instead of them having zealots that dont look asian. Naturally im talking about the sword wielding monks, which did exist to guard temples and the area surrounding them from surly land-lubbers.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=170774

Question: what stats should these zealots have? Should the stats differ between the zealots off different religions? i.e. buddhists more defensive?
Yes I think that would be good. The Hassassin would have I guess an infiltration bonus; the Templars would be great at offensive actions especially from horseback; the Zealots would gain a bonus from forest/hill terrains and be good at ambush tactics, etc.

well , here it is , also not certain if it's implented or suggested , so in simple how bout' give the legioner the ability to bulit forts ?
them romans were master of siege and barricades and i think it's very realistic to add this ability

what say you ? :p
A good additional ability if it can be coded. Used to have this ability for legionaire in Civ 3 in The Ancient Mediterranean mod. :goodjob:

Hi all,

As suggested in the main forum, Zealots ,whatever their religions are, should begin with:
- strenght 4
- movement 1
- cost (around) 30-40 shields
- free attack promo
- free maintenance cost under Theocraty civic.
- needed a specific building to be built (either monastery, either temple, it depend on the religion). Monastery for Buddism, catholics. Temple for muslims. I don't know for other religions.

Furthemore, specific promo could be added. One (or more) for each different religion. IMO, it could be:
- ignore terrain cost (as keshik) more Muslim zealot (renamed Hachinchin, that's mean smoker of ....a kind of Hemp ;) )
- mobility for catholic zealot. Most were mounted, no ?
- Desert promo (don't remember its name, sorry) for Zoroastrian zealots. It's a religion of middle east, lands full of desert, no ?

No more ideas at that time. Waiting for comments, guys. As usual. :)

The Frog.

About Roman Legioner:

Yes, great idea to give them the ability to buid Forts. They were real masters.

The Frog.

Sounds great, but i would give the zealots a two movement because they arent conventional military units. They arent heavily armed or armoured and they might not have a baggage train. Instead they are groups of 'dedicated' fanatics quickly moving through the land to kill their enemies. Kind of like malicious scouts.

Christian zealot
30 cost
4 str
1 move (2 with fanatic)
free attack promo +15 attack -15 defence
fanatic promotion (obvious, cant believe i didnt think of this sooner)
free upkeep under theocracy for all, but need monastery to build

Muslim zealot (Hashshashin)
30 cost
4 str
1 move (2 with fanatic)
+10 strength, known to attack people outright but also to defend from their fortresses
fanatic promotion
Or same as christian zealot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashashin

Zoroastrian zealot
same as above
except attack promo becomes bonus in desert +30

Jewish zealot (Sicarii zealots, the original zealots)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealotry
30 cost
4 str
1 move (2)
fanatic promotion
bonus vs melee +20, the Sicarii zealots attacked Roman soldiers and their sympathisers, also had fortresses which they defended so no penalty to defence. They even drove the Romans out of Jerusalem for a few years!

Buddhist zealots (Warrior Monks were a serious problem in Japan)
http://www.geocities.com/azuchiwind/monks.htm
As christian zealot, they attacked anyone who didnt bribe them.
Use dob dob skin

Taoist Zealot (Warrior Monk)
as buddhist zealot


Below sicarii, if only we could give the jewish zealots a dagger and the muslim zealots scimitars (or knives).

Yes I knew the Jewish Zealots were the originals....just could not remember their names...and I had just finished reading a historical account of the era...The Sicarii. Good unit pix. :D The Muslim Zealots more closely resembled Ninjas in their mode of dress and attitude. I think a scimitar would be out of place.

hope to see it in game ASAP . maybe next patch ?

it's not impossibale , cous i saw a crusader unit with this abilty somewhere

btw , love the zealot idea :nuke:

Sounds great, but i would give the zealots a two movement because they arent conventional military units. They arent heavily armed or armoured and they might not have a baggage train. Instead they are groups of 'dedicated' fanatics quickly moving through the land to kill their enemies. Kind of like malicious scouts.

Christian zealot
30 cost
4 str
1 move (2 with fanatic)
free attack promo +15 attack -15 defence
fanatic promotion (obvious, cant believe i didnt think of this sooner)
free upkeep under theocracy for all, but need monastery to build

Muslim zealot (Hashshashin)
30 cost
4 str
1 move (2 with fanatic)
+10 strength, known to attack people outright but also to defend from their fortresses
fanatic promotion
Or same as christian zealot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashashin

Zoroastrian zealot
same as above
except attack promo becomes bonus in desert +30

Jewish zealot (Sicarii zealots, the original zealots)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealotry
30 cost
4 str
1 move (2)
fanatic promotion
bonus vs melee +20, the Sicarii zealots attacked Roman soldiers and their sympathisers, also had fortresses which they defended so no penalty to defence. They even drove the Romans out of Jerusalem for a few years!

Buddhist zealots (Warrior Monks were a serious problem in Japan)
http://www.geocities.com/azuchiwind/monks.htm
As christian zealot, they attacked anyone who didnt bribe them.
Use dob dob skin

Taoist Zealot (Warrior Monk)
as buddhist zealot


Below sicarii, if only we could give the jewish zealots a dagger and the muslim zealots scimitars (or knives).

Hi Los Tirano, all,

It seems good. Meanwhile, i would rather saw each Zealot different from others. That's why i suggest some change for Taoist, Hinduist and Buddist Zealots:

- Buddist Zealot: (Warrior Monk)
Strenght 4, Cost 30, Free Fanatic promo, base movement 1, needed monastery to be built, Drill I and II (They were masters in martial arts, no? ;) ). Note that i'm not sure of the english name of the promo. The promo i like is the the one that gives chance of first strike or a first strike.;)

- Taoist Zealot: (Monk)
Strengh 4, Cost 30, Free fanatic promo, base movement 1, needed monastery to be built, Hills I promo (don't remember the english name, sorry)
because most of their greatest monasteries where inside China, in lands full of Hills and mountains.

- Hinduist Zealot: ( Ascet, ascetic, how do you say in english ?)
Strenght 4, cost 30, Free fanatic promo, base movement 1, needed monastery to be built, immune to first strike (i don't know why, but i like and it could be a good flavour :) )

Waiting for comments, guys.

I hope we could soon sum-up all of that stuff to ask Houman to add it. :D

The Frog.

Ok, but what technology they will require ?
And another thing, zealots should be a copy of a unit whith same or close up ecuipment + special bonuses. Not one or 2 like crusaders have (cristian unit), but more like Mujahid (Islamic).
Still think that Mujahid are weaker, as they need desert, and when im a muslim Germany its a problem.
Im saying that Mujahid have many bonuses. Makes you feel that they are a Real Special Unit, not a simple regular one.

Now going to Buddist Zealots (Warrior Monks). [Hians one]
Drill ? I would give 'em some defancive bonuses, as they were made to defend their teritory/monastary.s

And Los Tiranos Jewish zealots
Giving them +20 vs melee. Why ? What about if they had to fight against archers or mounted enemy, would they be weaker against them ? I dont know much about them, but giving them bonus "only" becouse they drive out one type of enemy "melee legionaries". Roman army also had light cavalary, mayby like 0,1% of army :) (joke).
Also Jewish zealot have str 4 (+20% thats 4.8 +10% [fanatic promotion] thats 5.2) and Roman legionary have str: 6 and have some bonus vs melee i belive. So mathematycly Jewls would loose right ? Unless you are also counting production, making Jewls produce 2.5 zealots for 1 legionary.

Also For Muslim zealto. You gave them +10% and a fanatic promotion ? Wich gives them +20% strength ? Or you gave em only 10% and saying fanatic prom to "name" that 10% bonus ?

How about we will make like this : "collect" knowlage for just one zealot, knowing their weaness, strength, numberous (quantity), equipment (resource rquirement like iron) ane a specific combat bonus vs specified religion (like Chirstians vs Muslim, Cristians vs Pogans and so on).

Also for Cristian crusades? it was more like a Pope was sending letter calling Lords, Kings, Generals and Marshalls for a Crusade against sertain nation/religion. Really dont know how to make this one into a Civ 4 as its not a mercenary (Pope wasnt paying them(not much or nothing at all), they just pillaged for them selves).

Hope this will go better than archery threat :/

Ha, damn i forgot hindus. The current Hindu zealots in India seem very good at burning things down. How to put that in game... Could give them an extra move so they can rapidly raze improvements, so move 3 in total.

Free first strikes sound good for the monks, more flavour. The idea of terrain bonus is good, its taking in the territories they were used to. But zealots arent defensive units as a rule. Thats why the attack promo seems a good idea.

Jews vs. Roman legionaries. Bonus because they would have been fighting the occupying forces most often. Which would be melee, not cav. With zealots we arent trying to make units better than any other (well im not) there is no real reason that the zealots should always triumph over the superb Roman soldiery. But, if they are cheap they can rise up and win with numbers. "We appreciate your sacrifice Brian". And they are for flavour, and to guard holy cities (you know you want fanatical guards).

Resource requirement. Lets not make it too complicated. Anything they had would have been stolen or easy to procure anyway. Typically a lack of armour, or piecemeal, just need weapons. By christian zealots we are more meaning apocalyptic flagellant types. Crusaders already cover the templars, hospitaller etc.

Anaztazioch, Los Tirano, All guys interested in Zealots in fact,

I write a small (first) sum-up and some comments + questions.

Zealots are fanatical units of a particular religion.
Whatever their religion is, they all begin with :
- Cost 30
- Strength 4
- Free Fanatic promo
- Base movement 1
- Build in cities with monasteries.
- Free upkeep under Theocraty
- No particular ressources needed.

Others particularities depend on the religion.

Catholic: ( No name yet) Attack I free promo
Muslim : ( Hashshashin) Combat I free promo
Zoroastrian: (No name yet) Desert promo (don't remember its name, sorry)
Jew: (Sicarii) +20% against melee units.
Hindu: ( No name yet) Mobility free promo
Buddist: (Warrior Monk) Drill I and Drill II free prmo
Taoist: (Monk) Hills I free promo (don't remember itd name, sorry)

I don't know if it is doable (programming) but i think it's logical to forbid the built of Zealots after you are under "free religion" civic. Waiting for comments.

Also, you should be allowed to build only Zealots of your state religion. I let you imagine the difficulties a country and its leaders can meet with various Zealots roaming in the countryside. On the other hand, religious strifes were (and are still) numerous in multi religions countries ( Irak is an exemple, as ex-yugoslavia in the 90s) . Waiting for comments.

About tech: each Zealot should be linked with his religion. I mean that a chrisitian zealot could only be built if you have already discovered "the christian tech" and built the monastery ( it is a pre requisite as i wrote above). Other idea are welcome, it's my own suggestion ;) . Waiting for comments.

Some zealot names are still missing. I suggest ascet, ascetist for Hinduist Zealot. I don't know the right word in english :blush: . I can give it in french, but it would useless ;) . Ideas and comments are welcome.

Taoist Zealot: I suggest this promo (Hills I) because Taoism is not an aggressive religion as others (Catholicism, Islam above all. Crusades and Jihad are not really peacefull ways to promote a religion). So, Taoist zealots are more prone to have a defensive promo. I know that's not what intended at first but i think it's more realistic. Other ideas are welcome of course. If a good suggestion arise, i would be pleased to have a look at it. Waiting for comments.

Buddist Zealot: Drill I and II seem good because it allow the unit to weaken a foe at the beginning of the fight. These promo are more usefull as many are thinking. Please have a look in the war academy, there is a very good post that explained how fights are calculated by the computer. You will understand how drill can be usefull.... Wating for comments.

Catholic zealot: Anaztazioch, you are right about the Pope. When he asked for crusades, his wish was an army of professionals (Nobles, mens at arms,...). Meanwhile, the first to reach what is todays Turkey where common peoples. It was the Crusade of the People (if i badly traduct from french). When they reached the city of Nikea (Nicée) they were totaly destroyed by the Seldjouk Turk (powerfull horsemen that control central turkey after their victory at Mantzikert in 1071). The few that survived were sold as slaves (women, children) or beheaded (males). Just to say that we don't want Zealots to take the role of Crusaders. They are "enlightened" guys ready to die to promote the "only faith".... Comments are welcome.

Hinduist Zealot: Mobility may be too powerfull IMO. My suggestion is to allow them to travel lands as a mongol keshik (no move penalties, or something like that. I'm unable to traduct that in english). It would still allow them fast moves in uneasy lands (forests, hills,...) Waiting for comments.

That's all at that time for me :) .

@ Anaztazioch: I also hope it would cooler that two days ago, but i'm really not sure of that. :( I'm afraid that one day you will AGAIN sent an other free attack to someone.....

The Frog.

@ Lor Tirano

Said you:
And they are for flavour, and to guard holy cities (you know you want fanatical guards).

So why shouldnt we recive a free zealot or 2 after building of holy shrine ?
Also guard is more defancive word for me and you said:
But zealots arent defensive units as a rule.

Some 1 is loosing his toughts :D


About requireing Monastary for Zealots... well having early religion like Hinduism, Judaism or Zoroastrialism, you cant build them, You must resarch Meditation (1st to resarch founds Buddism), so there a problem. I say Temple should be like the way, as it need Priesthood (no religion fouding). And Monastary lets say hastes production. Or gives addonitional expiriance for Zealot units.

As for Hinduist Zealot... i knew that name. Was in Turistic high school, and I had far east region ( China, Kore, Kambodia, Japan, India ). Thou i eighter forgot the name, or i was ill when we had that lesons.
"ascet" the name is a "non beliver" in Polish :). Means he dont belive that there is any power that has any control over mortals, nor was creator ow world, no after life etc. So in my language its a perfect name for a Zealot :D

Taoist Zealot: maybe instead for hill defance he should get bonus when attacking from hills or hill title ?

Buddism Zealots: Im trying to adopt the teachings of Buddha. Not easy, very slow progress. Like better to light a candle than complain abut darkness (my favorite one), or "words are action same as silance, or murder, hard to youse eigther in right way" :). And thus learning ways (not words, witch is the difficulest part, as every one can remeber, but who can understand? Also every one...) I dont belive that there were any Real Buddist Zealots. But faith can be used by sumeone to create his own army. So im realy "green" about this.

@ Hian
Since we have Cristianity as both Orthdox and Catholicism, lets keep to Catholic Zealots name ok ?

Hinduism Zealot: right high movement and it will be a pain in the ass. Im playing mongols only couse i hate seeing my improvemants raped by keshik. But if it is codable, lets give 'em no movemant cost for pillaging.

Im getting to feel bad for Houman... to read all this... especially "pointless" archery threat :D

OMG my bad

Since we have Cristianity as both Orthdox and Catholicism, lets keep to Catholic Zealots name ok ?

should be:

Since we have Cristianity as both Orthdox and Catholicism, lets keep to Cristian Zealots name ok ?

Anaztazioch, Los Tirano, All guys interested in Zealots in fact,

I write a small (first) sum-up and some comments + questions.

Zealots are fanatical units of a particular religion.
Whatever their religion is, they all begin with :
- Cost 30
- Strength 4
- Free Fanatic promo
- Base movement 1
- Build in cities with monasteries.
- Free upkeep under Theocraty
- No particular ressources needed.

Others particularities depend on the religion.

Catholic: ( No name yet) Attack I free promo
Muslim : ( Hashshashin) Combat I free promo
Zoroastrian: (No name yet) Desert promo (don't remember its name, sorry)
Jew: (Sicarii) +20% against melee units.
Hindu: ( No name yet) Mobility free promo
Buddist: (Warrior Monk) Drill I and Drill II free prmo
Taoist: (Monk) Hills I free promo (don't remember itd name, sorry)

I don't know if it is doable (programming) but i think it's logical to forbid the built of Zealots after you are under "free religion" civic. Waiting for comments.

Also, you should be allowed to build only Zealots of your state religion. I let you imagine the difficulties a country and its leaders can meet with various Zealots roaming in the countryside. On the other hand, religious strifes were (and are still) numerous in multi religions countries ( Irak is an exemple, as ex-yugoslavia in the 90s) . Waiting for comments.

About tech: each Zealot should be linked with his religion. I mean that a chrisitian zealot could only be built if you have already discovered "the christian tech" and built the monastery ( it is a pre requisite as i wrote above). Other idea are welcome, it's my own suggestion ;) . Waiting for comments.

Some zealot names are still missing. I suggest ascet, ascetist for Hinduist Zealot. I don't know the right word in english :blush: . I can give it in french, but it would useless ;) . Ideas and comments are welcome.

Taoist Zealot: I suggest this promo (Hills I) because Taoism is not an aggressive religion as others (Catholicism, Islam above all. Crusades and Jihad are not really peacefull ways to promote a religion). So, Taoist zealots are more prone to have a defensive promo. I know that's not what intended at first but i think it's more realistic. Other ideas are welcome of course. If a good suggestion arise, i would be pleased to have a look at it. Waiting for comments.

Buddist Zealot: Drill I and II seem good because it allow the unit to weaken a foe at the beginning of the fight. These promo are more usefull as many are thinking. Please have a look in the war academy, there is a very good post that explained how fights are calculated by the computer. You will understand how drill can be usefull.... Wating for comments.

Catholic zealot: Anaztazioch, you are right about the Pope. When he asked for crusades, his wish was an army of professionals (Nobles, mens at arms,...). Meanwhile, the first to reach what is todays Turkey where common peoples. It was the Crusade of the People (if i badly traduct from french). When they reached the city of Nikea (Nicée) they were totaly destroyed by the Seldjouk Turk (powerfull horsemen that control central turkey after their victory at Mantzikert in 1071). The few that survived were sold as slaves (women, children) or beheaded (males). Just to say that we don't want Zealots to take the role of Crusaders. They are "enlightened" guys ready to die to promote the "only faith".... Comments are welcome.

Hinduist Zealot: Mobility may be too powerfull IMO. My suggestion is to allow them to travel lands as a mongol keshik (no move penalties, or something like that. I'm unable to traduct that in english). It would still allow them fast moves in uneasy lands (forests, hills,...) Waiting for comments.

That's all at that time for me :) .

@ Anaztazioch: I also hope it would cooler that two days ago, but i'm really not sure of that. :( I'm afraid that one day you will AGAIN sent an other free attack to someone.....

The Frog.
Froggie my wife speaks/writes fluent French; so write the word for Hindu Zealot and I will ask her to translate. :) Jewish Zealots were excellent ambushers, and they used the terrain/environment to their advantage.

Ankenaton,

Great. The exact word in french is: ascète.
Now, it's possible that a simple traduction wouldn't be adapted.

Right about Jewish Zealots. But how giving them a promo/flavour showed thier ability to ambush ? Any ideas ?

The Frog.

Ankenaton,

Great. The exact word in french is: ascète.
Now, it's possible that a simple traduction wouldn't be adapted.

Right about Jewish Zealots. But how giving them a promo/flavour showed thier ability to ambush ? Any ideas ?

The Frog.
Froggie I left a message on the wife's voicemail regarding the word, when she gets back to me I will post it here. I don't think there is any ability available in Civ that can simulate ambush. Maybe an increased first strike capability; and/or that the unit is not visible by an opponent unless you occupy an adjacent tile? Anyone have any other ideas? :)

Well if we wanted to give the jewish zealots an ambush type promo it would be a free strike. They strike before the unit knows what hits them. Come to think of it a free strike sounds like a good addition to Jewish and Muslim zealots.

@Anaztazioch, your really trying to be annoying arent you? When i say guard the holy cities i mean kill anyone that comes near them, not sit and defend in the city. Thats how i defend my cities anyway. I think its appropriate for the holy cities to have 'personal' guards.

The idea of receiving a free zealot after a shrine is a good one. Hmmm, we could even have a new wonder that gives you four free zealots. Call it Alamut, after the Hashashin fortress. Use the castle graphic and done. I have no problem with a temple unlocking these crazy guys.

And if we wanted a different name than Hashashin we could use "fedayeen from the Arabic fidā'ī, which means one who is ready to sacrifice their life for a cause." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashashin

Well if we wanted to give the jewish zealots an ambush type promo it would be a free strike. They strike before the unit knows what hits them. Come to think of it a free strike sounds like a good addition to Jewish and Muslim zealots.

@Anaztazioch, your really trying to be annoying arent you? When i say guard the holy cities i mean kill anyone that comes near them, not sit and defend in the city. Thats how i defend my cities anyway. I think its appropriate for the holy cities to have 'personal' guards.

The idea of receiving a free zealot after a shrine is a good one. Hmmm, we could even have a new wonder that gives you four free zealots. Call it Alamut, after the Hashashin fortress. Use the castle graphic and done. I have no problem with a temple unlocking these crazy guys.

And if we wanted a different name than Hashashin we could use "fedayeen from the Arabic fidā'ī, which means one who is ready to sacrifice their life for a cause." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashashin
So what level of first strike capability do you propose?

Los Tirano, Ankenaton,

A free first strike could simulate an ambush skill, right. But if we add that to muslim and jewish zealots, wouldn't they become too poowerfull ? And would the Buddist zealot be "allowed" to also have first strike ? :confused:

Nevertheless, Anaztazioch's idea of some free zealots after the built of a holy shrine is good.:goodjob: Meanwhile, this new wonder would give much power to civs that have already built a holy shrine. IF, we add this wonder, its power should be limited in terms of culture (+1 max IMO )and in GP (+1 max prophet). Will it be a national one or a world one ? What about the tech, the cost, the pre requisite ? Alamut is also a good name.

It's a good idea but i would rather prefer finishing our Zealot Project before asking Houman if he agrees. After, in case of success, we would try to "build" this wonder (on the adapted thread....) ;)

The Frog.

Ankenaton,

Great. The exact word in french is: ascète.
Now, it's possible that a simple traduction wouldn't be adapted.

Right about Jewish Zealots. But how giving them a promo/flavour showed thier ability to ambush ? Any ideas ?

The Frog.
Froggie according to the wife it is a direct translation into the english ascetic - basically one who abhors/abstains from indulging in what they consider as non-essential behaviors or luxuries. They lead a simple life devoted to worship and are divorced from the demands of the outside world. :crazyeye: Kind of boring if you ask me. :D

Los Tirano, Ankenaton,

A free first strike could simulate an ambush skill, right. But if we add that to muslim and jewish zealots, wouldn't they become too poowerfull ? And would the Buddist zealot be "allowed" to also have first strike ? :confused:

Nevertheless, Anaztazioch's idea of some free zealots after the built of a holy shrine is good.:goodjob: Meanwhile, this new wonder would give much power to civs that have already built a holy shrine. IF, we add this wonder, its power should be limited in terms of culture (+1 max IMO )and in GP (+1 max prophet). Will it be a national one or a world one ? What about the tech, the cost, the pre requisite ? Alamut is also a good name.

It's a good idea but i would rather prefer finishing our Zealot Project before asking Houman if he agrees. After, in case of success, we would try to "build" this wonder (on the adapted thread....) ;)

The Frog.
Maybe the Buddhist (How about Shaolin <Chinese Buddhist warrior monks>) zealots could have an increased strength or defense bonus.

Froggie according to the wife it is a direct translation into the english ascetic - basically one who abhors/abstains from indulging in what they consider as non-essential behaviors or luxuries. They lead a simple life devoted to worship and are divorced from the demands of the outside world. :crazyeye: Kind of boring if you ask me. :D

Ankenaton,

Yes, i really agree.:lol: Very boring. But everyone is free to chose his own way....

Do you think that "ascetic" is adapted to Hinduist Zealots ? It seems not IMO, but is there any other more adapted name ?

You can tell to your wife : " Merci de votre aide, Madame Ankenaton" ;)


The Frog.

Ankenaton,

An increase strenght or def bonus ? Why not ? At first, Los Tirano and I were thinking zealots as low cost attack units and as all different from each other. It seems not possible, if you refer to the Taoist Zealot.

We would ask Los Tirano what he think about this idea. And any other who would give a suggestion.

The Frog.

ascetic - as your translation suggest, fits more to Taoists and Christians in middle ages. They were even "forcing" them selves to be weaker and worser just to achive heaven.

So I doubt it would be a good name for a Zealot unit.

@ Hian

We would ask Los Tirano what he think about this idea. And any other who would give a suggestion.

Mayby if Zealots were stronger, but couldnt leave its country borders ? Or "travel" only inside countries of same religion ?
Couse they were more protectors of faith not "convertors" or religion spreaders.

Ankenaton,

Yes, i really agree.:lol: Very boring. But everyone is free to chose his own way....

Do you think that "ascetic" is adapted to Hinduist Zealots ? It seems not IMO, but is there any other more adapted name ?

You can tell to your wife : " Merci de votre aide, Madame Ankenaton" ;)


The Frog.
Yes there is another name for Hindu zealots, the name escapes me right now will try to look it up.

Guys,

I had just loaded TR to have a look at the promo. Big problem ! Don't we wrote our ideas too quickly ?
Fanatical is awesome:
- immune to first strike
- 1 extra first strike
- +1 movement
- Heals 10% in ennemy lands
- +25% strength
- +10% city attack

Maybie we should have a look for less powerfull Zealot. I mean a Zealot with 4 strenght + fanatical + an other promo at a cost of 30 shields is really THE unit of the beginning of the game...
Any comments ?

The Frog.

Guys,

I had just loaded TR to have a look at the promo. Big problem ! Don't we wrote our ideas too quickly ?
Fanatical is awesome:
- immune to first strike
- 1 extra first strike
- +1 movement
- Heals 10% in ennemy lands
- +25% strength
- +10% city attack

Maybie we should have a look for less powerfull Zealot. I mean a Zealot with 4 strenght + fanatical + an other promo at a cost of 30 shields is really THE unit of the beginning of the game...
Any comments ?

The Frog.
I think we want units that can attack from hiding (ambush) with a good chance of success. However the units should not be as powerful as say a non-promoted legionaire/swordsman (infantry).

I think we want units that can attack from hiding (ambush) with a good chance of success. However the units should not be as powerful as say a non-promoted legionaire/swordsman (infantry).

Ankenaton,

That's excatly what i want to say. :D
A Zealot should not be as powerfull as a swordman or a legionaire, even if Divine Guided. ;)

Probably, our idea remains good if we ONLY lower the base strenght to three.
No changes to others ideas. With a base of 4 + fanatical + either attack I, either combat I, a zealot could reach around 5.5. Too much, IMO.

What do you think of this possible change ?

The Frog.

So add all the bonuses we have been talking about but start at the initial strength of three, not four as Hian suggests. Fanatical is indeed a good trait, and encompasses the ambush element already.

So add all the bonuses we have been talking about but start at the initial strength of three, not four as Hian suggests. Fanatical is indeed a good trait, and encompasses the ambush element already.
Agree, lets start at three.

Guys,

At that time, my own PCs (i had 3) are under attacks by some spyware, malware,...
I had only succeded to quarantine them. I will be back ASAP. I MUST destroy them. I would be also very happy to destroy the guy that created them....

The Frog.

Good luck with that Hian. Sneeky gits and their nasty viruses.

Kids putting viruses on porn sites makes risky to visit them ;)

What about Hindus katars ? Or tulwars (indian sabre). Or chacram throwers ?
Can we implent them in Indian skins ? (if any1 is modding ofcourse).

Also can we change the name of Samurai to Kensai of Bushi atleast. (Kensai is master of swords, usually unarmored, Bushi is direct translation of Warrior)

Guys,

As usual, you are a funny guy Anaztazioch.

I had nearly cleaned my PCs. Only one virus is still under quarantine. It's not a dangerous one but a very very boring one....

Los Tirano, Ankenaton, is one of you ready to sum-up our ideas of Zealots ? It would be nice to try to sent our wishes to Houman before the release of the warlords patch.

The Frog

Guys,

As usual, you are a funny guy Anaztazioch.

I had nearly cleaned my PCs. Only one virus is still under quarantine. It's not a dangerous one but a very very boring one....

Los Tirano, Ankenaton, is one of you ready to sum-up our ideas of Zealots ? It would be nice to try to sent our wishes to Houman before the release of the warlords patch.

The Frog

i had problems with spyware too. i only noticed when new toolbars where put up without my permission. i had no type of protection against spyware so there was a crazy amount.

you get spyware from soo many things. visisting sites you assume to be safe. tracking what websites you visit. I then put some spyware protection things, and i dont have the problem anymore.

how is this "zealot" idea working?...is it sort of like some crusader type unit for every major religion?...:confused: that you can build with certain requirements like a temple or monastary?

Spartan117,

I agree with you about spyware, maleware,... I was infected while going on a football webside ( Cup of the League games tonight ) to bet with some of my close friends. It's awesome how these f--- spywares quickly infect a computer.... I will probably had to reboot everything....

Zealots: Your sum-up is quite good. Low cost, low strenght, buildable in cities with monasteries, all differents ,.... Each religion has his own zealot. In fact, Zealots are groups of men and women from the people absolutly ready to die to promote and/or defend their faith. In our world history, Zealots were sometimes strong enough to hold cities and castles, as the Jews zealots in Jerusalem or the Muslims zealots in the big castle of Alamut.

Try to take time to read the posts of the last days. Any of your comments would be welcome. But be quick, we are nearly ready to ask Houman to add them....

The Frog.

its alright no suggesstions:goodjob: . but what tech requirement would you need inorder to use them?.... and are the units somewhere in unit grahics section or does one need to "make" them:confused:

are they able to be advanced through the ages? or can they be upgraded to newer units?

Also can we change the name of Samurai to Kensai of Bushi atleast. (Kensai is master of swords, usually unarmored, Bushi is direct translation of Warrior)
Why? The samurai are not masters of blades. People of sufficient skill to be titled 'master of blades' would have been exceedingly rare. I believe samurai is a modification of a Japanese word meaning 'to serve' and a samurai is literally 'one who serves'.

Besides, Kensai (kensei) refers to a warrior of legendary sword skill. It was commonly understood that there could be only one kensai at any time.

Likewise I don't believe bushi is appropriate because samurai were not just warriors. they had an ethical code and were expected to be literate and at least somewhat educated. Bushi would be good for the initial warriors for Japan though.

I'd say the kensai should be a different unit Although I can't honestly think of an adequate unit to replace. Maybe if shinto religion was added the kensai could be its special religious unit, given that kensei translates literally as 'Sword Saint'

WarKirby

@Los Tirano

Are you ready to get our heads together with me, Froggie and Spartan to finalize zealots? I have heavy childcare responsibilities tonight so I will not be able to post until the afternoon EST tomorrow. :p

Looking at the last pages the summary and merging of zealot info as i see it.

Christian zealot (base zealot)
30 cost
3 str
1 move (2 with fanatic)
free attack promo +15 attack -15 defence
fanatic promotion
free upkeep under theocracy for all, but need monastery to build

Muslim zealot (Hashshashin or Fedayeen)
same as christian zealot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashashin

Zoroastrian zealot
same as above
except attack promo becomes bonus in desert +30

Jewish zealot (Sicarii zealots, the original zealots)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealotry
30 cost
3 str
1 move (2)
fanatic promotion
bonus vs melee +20, the Sicarii zealots attacked Roman soldiers and their sympathisers, also had fortresses which they defended so no penalty to defence. They even drove the Romans out of Jerusalem for a few years!

Buddhist zealots (Warrior Monks were a serious problem in Japan)
http://www.geocities.com/azuchiwind/monks.htm
As christian zealot, but instead of attack drill I and drill II
Use dob dob skin

Taoist Zealot (Warrior Monk)
as base zealot
but instead of attack promo hill defence or hill attack bonus +30
use dob dob skin

Hindu Zealot
Mobility free promo instead of attack promo. Or ability to raze tile with no movement cost.

@ WArkirby

Note that samurai is not a skilled warrior by it self.
There were ministers, whom werent skilled in anithing but basics.

Also the training in medival Japan looked this way: A Master of arms was traveling through his clan land, and every samurai who wanted to join his journey and learn from him, must have first gain his own masters permision. Also there were no trining secions, only The master was doing some moves to keep up his strength, and all who followed were copying that moves. He wasnt showing any of his moves and "teaching". He was practicisng, and rest were copying.
Differant thing were on Courts, where Cesars or Emperer (dont know witch one, as both have same word translation in Poliash, but differant meaning) guard were training by the best of warriors on Japan islands.
The only clan that had practices and trainings, was Daito (Big one/Great one). The creator of this clan was a son of Yoshimitsu Minamoto, the creator of Aiki-no-jiu-jitsu, use of anathomy in fights (leaverages, special points), and sword techniques. His son changed name to Takeda, left Yoshimitsus clan and settled a new one north east of todays Tokyo. And only in clan Takeda, as succecors of Aiki-no-jiu-jitsu witch was upgraded by techiniques of bow, spear, throwing knife, polearm, sneak, decoy, "splitong weapon" (dont know its name) and weapon craftsmanship (only clan that all its members could repair theirs swords them selves, not send it to blacksmith) and changed the name to Daito-ryu.
Another Nihon inhabitans that were trained are Ninjas (assassins, thiefs, spies). Ninjas were to put it simply, a Rojin who have been given an oprtunity to serve his decased masters master, or ashamed samurai unworthy of Bushido. Such ashamed samurais (i use this name looselly) cannot even suicide, as is still bounded to his clan, and serving in this way is his only hope of restoring honor. Ninja were adepots of both Daito-ryu and techniques forbidden by Bushido, such as attacking unarmed, from behind, using illusion etc.
Other practiced them selves, by weidling a sword and trying to cut a wooden dool (not allways bambus). Also fathers were helping his sons the better use of blade, but mostly they teached hand to hand. But note that Aiki-no-jiu-jitsu, Daito-ryu and Yoseikan, are techniques of swords. They use very close uses in blade as they use in hand to hand.

PS: I had my 1,5 year episode whith Aiki-budo (European name for Yoseikan. From what shihan told me, it was a French man that learned Yoseikan in Japan, but was forbidden to use this name outside Nihon, thats why he created Aiki-budo. Differance lies only in training. It does not use Japanses "copy my moves", but actually teaching, telling mistakes and so on.). For 1st year i gained 5th kyu (Aiki-budo has 7, begining, white, yellow, orange, green, blue, brown) and 10 dans. After getting yellow belt i was ready (allowed) to practice whith wooden weapon on weapon training secions (8 hours of training a day). Dont know why i quit :/

This a Real short of "how Japan trained their warriors in middle ages".

I also had a copy of Bishido, but i gave it back to rightfull owner.

Thats why i cant give you exact name of swordsman... i know it was x-Bushi (all had this name, and x is equipment, but not daisho nor katana. Same was used to archers. x-Bushi-x was for mounted i belive). Learned Japanese for a year but now i remember like less than half oftheir "male" alphabet.

Post 65Intriguing stuff. Hard to read though. I'm guessing english is not your first language.
2nd postWakizashi? No-dachi? Ninjato? Sai? just throwing out random weapons here. Maybe remind you?

@ Warkirby

Yes its nice that you know the names of some wepons, but know, than 70% of Japanese arsenal was part of "clothing". Such weapons were poor in combat (not sharp, easy to break and such).

Also wakizashi was a short sword, used both in clothing as in combat as "secondary weapon". Yet wakizashi was both samurai weapon as ninjas, yet ninjas couldnt wear it as "part of clothing".

Now an easy question for you about Japanese weapons. Did samurais used shurikens in battles/raids ?

And yes English language isnt my first, you can know that from my info under ,my name...

And about No-Dachi

The direct translation of "Ôdachi" is big thick sword. Often mistaken for Nodachi which translates to field sword.

Actually dubble oo (can be written as "Ô" in our alphabet) infornt of a word means "big" not "big and thick". But how did japans understand that word ?

How ever i dont know if no-dachi was actually used in combat as sword... more as polearm i imagine.

Got info from here.

http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/nodachi.html

I think the japanese need more unique units. The axeman and hypaspist don't fit well at all with the 'proper' units.

I searched for awhile and found very little mention of japan using axes at all. I ran into two types. The Masakari (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://homepage2.nifty.com/s-kawai/image/masakari/p_masak_2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://homepage2.nifty.com/s-kawai/masakari.html&h=225&w=300&sz=13&hl=en&start=10&tbnid=LFzKBVz9e2LCxM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmasakari%26ndsp%3D18%26svnum%3D10%26h l%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN) and the ono. I could not find a picture of the ono and very little information about either.

My thoughts. I think it might be good to use naginata in place of axeman, and a yari samurai to replace the pikeman. Yari samurai being better trained than yari ashigaru, more disciplined and better equipped, I believe justifies the extra strength even though they use the same weapon

I think the archer ought to be archer ashigaru. The current archer just looks strange beside yari ashigaru.

Can't think of a suitable replacement for Hypaspist though.

I'm no historian, just a guy with a slight obsession about Japan. If anyone knows better feel free to shoot down these ideas with hard facts.

WarKirby

I think the japanese need more unique units. The axeman and hypaspist don't fit well at all with the 'proper' units.

I searched for awhile and found very little mention of japan using axes at all. I ran into two types. The Masakari (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://homepage2.nifty.com/s-kawai/image/masakari/p_masak_2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://homepage2.nifty.com/s-kawai/masakari.html&h=225&w=300&sz=13&hl=en&start=10&tbnid=LFzKBVz9e2LCxM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmasakari%26ndsp%3D18%26svnum%3D10%26h l%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN) and the ono. I could not find a picture of the ono and very little information about either.

My thoughts. I think it might be good to use naginata in place of axeman, and a yari samurai to replace the pikeman. Yari samurai being better trained than yari ashigaru, more disciplined and better equipped, I believe justifies the extra strength even though they use the same weapon

I think the archer ought to be archer ashigaru. The current archer just looks strange beside yari ashigaru.

Can't think of a suitable replacement for Hypaspist though.

I'm no historian, just a guy with a slight obsession about Japan. If anyone knows better feel free to shoot down these ideas with hard facts.

WarKirby
There is historical mention of masterless Ronin, wives and female relatives of Samurai and organized yeoman militia using the naginata to good effect. I think it would make an excellent replacement for the axeman. It could also be used as a weapon similar to a polearm, so this may also serve as replacement spear troops. I do not recall the thrusting spear being to widely used as a main combat weapon in Japan. I see no problem with your choices. It would definitely add more flavor. As for other nationalities, especially during the early game the Egyptians favored the use of Nubian Archers as main supportive element of their armies. Also they utilized the ancestors of the Dinka (e.g. Manute Bol) as scouts and trackers on their military campaigns. Seeing everyone use the same Native American scout is very anachronistic. :crazyeye:

I do not recall the thrusting spear being to widely used as a main combat weapon in Japan.
The Yari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yari) was one of the most commonly used weapons in medieval Japan, and I believe it should stay.

WarKirby

The Yari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yari) was one of the most commonly used weapons in medieval Japan, and I believe it should stay.

WarKirby
I hear you, I was not disputing the above, rather I was writing about my lack of knowledge regarding its use. Since it was that widely used of course it should stay. :)

Well polearms and spears were primary weapon of Japanese militia. How ever the swords such as well know "godlike" katanas were mostly close range combat weapons, making a rather support role, but still some great wariors prefered sword than spear, hance sword was also a primary weapon.
How ever its the unique type of sword that made it so famous, not its use in combat, as poleram and oodachi were most effective. Also sword was a traditional weapon and "the soul" of warrior. It is said that each samurai had his "soul sword" and his 2 combat swords. Each time a samurai knew he would die in combat he was giving his "soul sword" to messanger, who was eighter fleing(when fighting non Japans) or the survivor that spread news of defeat in his clan and bringing back "soul swords" to the family of the owner.

Read Bushido, its really strange book, hard to understand for non japanese and even harder to adopt. You can really be suprices as Japan was(is) much differant than any of you could ever expect. Not mentioning tales.

I disagree with the idea that Japanese warrior philosophy is so obscure and difficult to understand if you arent Japanese. Bushido and zen buddhism is quite different to the way we think in the west, but i wouldnt say it is impenetrable, or that it doesnt have a core that cant be understood, like any philosophy. (No expert, just read a few Thomas Cleary books, and a hand full of other ones).

A ronin unit might be a good idea. Cheap, nasty melee unit. Replace hypsapist for Japan? Always thought it strange for them to have that.

I disagree with the idea that Japanese warrior philosophy is so obscure and difficult to understand if you arent Japanese. Bushido and zen buddhism is quite different to the way we think in the west, but i wouldnt say it is impenetrable, or that it doesnt have a core that cant be understood, like any philosophy. (No expert, just read a few Thomas Cleary books, and a hand full of other ones).

A ronin unit might be a good idea. Cheap, nasty melee unit. Replace hypsapist for Japan? Always thought it strange for them to have that.

Hi,

Good idea. Replace the Hypsapist by a Ronin seems quite good. With special Japanese flavors (different cost, powers, value,...) or exactly the same ?

The Frog.

Hi,

Good idea. Replace the Hypsapist by a Ronin seems quite good. With special Japanese flavors (different cost, powers, value,...) or exactly the same ?

The Frog.
Great so the Ronin are a go?

Ronin a unit ?

If a samurais master dies, his vassal becomes a ronin and is "freed" from Bushido, unless he has a family.
How ever depending on circumstances of masters death, the future of ronin is settled. If master will die becouse his vassal have failed, he bacame a ronin for a week. In this week ronin has to ensure the survival of his family, avange his masters death, restore honor by dying when trying to avange his master, resotore honor by carrying his masters last order. Once ronin restores his honor he is to ask his masters master, if he is allowed to continue living as man freed from Bushido and surve his masters master as something simillar to Ninja, or recive a ceremonial suicide under the "merciful" chop of his masters master. How wver if ronin will not restore his honor he has to eigther become an outlaw witch may leed him to becoming a ninja, or free his family from shameful life by doing a shameful suicide.

Also they is a tele of 47 ronins rebelling against their former master. They invaded his country yard, and chalanged his army and his sons in some kind of "caremonial" battle witch name/rules i cant type. But the battle went they way so that these 47 ronins have slain one of masters sons and at that time master ordered these ronins to suicide. All caried out order even thou they werent bound to it. Master him self has ordered his man to spread news that he and his village is no longer a part of clan, declaring war against everyone arround and puting code aside. They lived is shadows, hiding and murdering their enemies. Their point was eighter destruction of Bushido and feudal system, or finding their own death, honor. It has become well known that they become more powerfull, even none of them had a home, land, money, hairdo, well crafted weapons. In time emperor asked them to stop the bloodshed. He gave em the land, but no name. Gave em weapons, but none of these were used by samurais. He gave them a chance of serving their country, but not restoration. They accepted and spred their skills from their time as samurai and their skills of trckery, bluff, sneak, illusion, use of plain weapons, locksmith, backstab and chemistry. Their succesors were saumrai, but not from their line. They were all murdered and their tale has ended. However the skills they shared and give to the emperor ware "compressed" into one martial art, witch goes by the name of Nin-jitsu.

It was a tale i have from one of my books back from a day i was completelly drawned by medival Japan. Most of the tales back than was myths and demon/ghost tales. But this one was the most realistic. Also according to Bushido it was "possible". But where truth begins and where it ends i dont know.

But to come to a simple conclusion on what ronin is. In Japanese medival feudal system there were 2 categories:
1-nobles (merchants, townsfolk, ministers, politics, scientists, bards etc.)
2-bushi (warriors in service of Japan nation, not participating in clan wars)
Each class Had to have a master. They were 4 no master "class":
0-foreigners (respected only when Japan had opened borders. Other wise they were treated as "under human")
1-peasant (some say that their master was emperor, but they were mostly bound to the land)
2-ronin (they are ex-samurai whith no master. If ashamed, they are higher than peasants only, becouse of family or good heart of masters master. Also they didnt live long as ronin usually)
3-emperor (guess)

Now i just remembered that ronin (roonin its actually, as it has 1st "o" long) was a vegrand that left/run his master and was an outlaw (this meaning was the first meaning and was used in Nara & Heian mostly). From 1185-1868 ad it mean a masterless "samurai".
But before the time Edo ronin had an easy life. As samurai could switch his master whithout his permition. As ronin could get a "new" one whith no "problem", only had to show his worth. How ever, after Tokugawa took Power, funded Edo as a sign of the end of all clan wars, he created new law and some say "new Bushido". Time of Edo began. Now switching master whith no permition of previous one was gravelly punished. But some ronins to avoid death have escaped and lived as...well...ronins. Ashamed, slured and cursed by samurai. They were mostly known from their bravery in fight on peasants side, but also as criminals. There was 2 very famous ronins.
1- Miyamoto Musashi (kensai i allow my slef to add)[1584 - 19 may 1645]. Creator of "Niten Ichi-ryu", author of "Go Rin No Sho". He fought over 50 documented duels, and have lost none. He was defeated in one of his last duels only once by Muso Gonosuke. Arima Kihei - Musashi cracked his head whith boken, adn Kihei bled to death. Seijiro Yoshioka -survived Musashis duesl, how ever cut his hair and "retreated" from public life. Denshichiro Yoshioka -willing to avange his brother he challanged Musashi. Musashi cracked open his head whith his first attack. Hanshichiro Yoshioka- the youngest Yoshioka. Musashi cut his head in two whith one chop.
2-Yataro Iwasaki who have funded "Mitsubishi" in 1873 :p dont know the details

Musashis enemies came from "Tsuba" & "Japan Swords Nihonto".

Might reconcider "creting" a ronin unit after this lecture ?
+ check Wikipedia, might prove some of my and add many more as i was trying make it short :)

PS; Medival Japan was non linear. You "cannot" understand it all as you cant understand rules and laws in europe. We (actually its I, so dont feel ofended) know about peasants that they had no rights. They worked hard,a nd had to give 10% for church, 50% to master, 20% to kingdom leaving them barelly 30% of their crop. Also they were "part" of a land, a king/lord was giving to his vassals. But I dont know if there was any escape from peasants life (you can say there were a caste system). Not all is know, so its really hard to understand whith IQ less than 507732850... "wanted to make this short" lol :p

And I thought I had long posts Anaz. Jesus Christ! :lol:

@ ankenaton

x_x 4:24am here

I forgot to say that im orud im no longer a Chieftan in forums :). Now its Warlord.

@ ankenaton

x_x 4:24am here

I forgot to say that im orud im no longer a Chieftan in forums :). Now its Warlord.
@Anaz: It is 11:38pm here.

Hmm ive heard a different version of the tale of the fourty seven ronin. But i guess these tales differ with each new storyteller.

I suggested the Ronin unit because during certain periods (Tokugawa, era of warring states) the number of wandering ronin was quite large. Some became bandits, Some tried to become expert swordsmen, the masters of newly created or old styles. During Miyamoto Mushashi's life there were apparently a great number of wandering swordsmen, and ronin, seeking to test their skills, prove themselves, and secure employment under daimyo as instructors.

Also sorry to point it out old boy, but your take on the structure of Japanese feudal society is somewhat incorrect, not to mention messy. To start with you should qualify whether you mean during the warring states period, the early Tokugawa period, or the late Tokugawa period.

"1-nobles (merchants, townsfolk, ministers, politics, scientists, bards etc.)
2-bushi (warriors in service of Japan nation, not participating in clan wars)
Each class Had to have a master. They were 4 no master "class":
0-foreigners (respected only when Japan had opened borders. Other wise they were treated as "under human")
1-peasant (some say that their master was emperor, but they were mostly bound to the land)
2-ronin (they are ex-samurai whith no master. If ashamed, they are higher than peasants only, becouse of family or good heart of masters master. Also they didnt live long as ronin usually)
3-emperor (guess)"

Now you have lumped the merchants under the category of nobles. The main mistake here along with putting the bards there also. If we are talking warring states, the Daimyo are the ones with the power, the lords of the warrior castes. The power of mechants was extremely low at this time 1467-1573 and they didnt occupy a powerful position until the late Tokugawa.

To clarify, once Japanese society became highly ordered (and peaceful) under the Tokugawa regime in 1603 onwards you can clearly see who has the power. Heres a quick summary, top to bottom.

1. The Shogunate: the emperor did not rise to prominence until the Meiji revolution. Until then the Shogun ruled, and his family.
2. Families allied to the Shogunate: dominant families influential in government. The rulers of the Han's (domains) etc. The highest samurai.
3. Vassal Samurai: of varying levels of power of course. Served their lords and the Shogun. Servants with privileges. Not all were skilled warriors, especially as the peaceful regime continued, a common myth.
4. Farmers: a decent status. They worked the land, they paid taxes. higher than medieval peasants i would say.
5. Artisans and entertainers: had a low status. This comes about when warriors and lords run the government. Valued, but no political power but could establish renown.
6. Merchants: now they had money, but no political power, also a consequence of who held the most powerful positions being quite different in philosophy to them. Their low position was due to the Bushido state ideology. Emphasis on military virtues, honour, bravery, self-discipline, not the merchant mentality. Also a low status due to the influence of the confucian ideology, which looked down upon mercantile practices, money, hoarding of wealth, transactions, etc.
7. Eta (filth) or the Barakumin. Outcasts, outlaws, butchers and tanners (due to confucianism again), prostitutes, Anaztazioch etc.

This isnt perfect, as i said, the merchants rose later when they had the Samurai in debt. Ronin were like the Buddhist monks in that the were outside of the hierarchy. But swordsmen like Musashi could become famous through their duels and be drawn into a good position. As vassals with renown.

Los Tirano,

Good sum-up of the Japanese society. About Ronins, it could be good to transform Hypsaptist to give a better "taste" to the mod. An other solution is to create a new unit, but i think it would be a too great flavor to add a new unit only to Japan.

Oups, 7. will probably be ....misunderstood :p . Retaliations are foreseeable. ;)

The Frog.

Hypaspist. That's perfect.

I couldn't think of anything to replace the hypaspist, and it certainly looks wrong in a japanese army.
7. Eta (filth) or the Barakumin. Outcasts, outlaws, butchers and tanners (due to confucianism again), prostitutes, Anaztazioch etc.

Was that intentional?

WarKirby,

It seems it was.

The Frog.

@ Los Tirano

Where is empror ?

And just to point it out. When did Tokugawa started Edo ? 1600-1868. It was also called Tokugawas.

@ Hian the Frog (little nasty frog)
We cant put ronin as hypaspist, becouse you resarch Bronze Working before Feudalism and in arround 2000bc. So sorry man. But they might take place of those crossbows...

@back to Los Tirano

(its raining here...dark...)
Now some light on Edo in Japan:
1) Edo was name of "era" as well as name of today's Tokyo.
2) This time was very "complex" in both politics,, economic, social, religious and mental.
3) Increace the meaning of menchantry (right many merchants lost their power. Only best ones could upkeep their power and even increase it) composed whith expantion of cities.
4) It is said that in XVIII Edo had over million inhabitants. (thats more than Paris or London in that time)

As for 47 ronins:
in 1701 - Asano, warrior from around Hiroshima wounded hatamoto Kire, who was soppused to tech him behaviour and etiquette used on emperors court. After that Asano was ordered seppuku. His posessions were confiscated and his samurais become ronin. Year ago ronins went for revange attacking Kire mantion in Edo, cut his head off and took it to the grave of Asano, so that his spirit my finally rest at ease. At time shogun ordered them all seppuku. All 47 ronin carried that order.

So yes my 1st story might be false, or refering to another 47 ronins as i have doiubts that it might be 53...

As for merchants:
After closing borders, japan merchants couldnt trade whith foreigners, so merchant guilds and growing strong "economic click"(?) at japan name of Zeibatsu concentrated their infualcec on National market. North from Nihombashi (from witch all distances to placec were made, main landmark) big trading houses were raised. Sumimoto, or founded in 1673 Echigoya(Yataro Iwasaki changed it to Mitsubishi).
Now not that every samurai was "paid" in pice of rice and the economy more and more was becoming "addicted" to money (currency), Bushi started borrowing money from merchants, landing in deeper and deeper indebtedness. The goverment didnt like this, as it was rice tixas be the fundaments of shogunat. (dont know how to translate, it the shoguns in power, shogunat or shogunalism...)
Japans economy and market was under "strict" controll of goverment, as for European industrial revolution taking place, colonising distant lands and such.
In 1853 USA under the command of comodor Matthew Perry's "black ships" the closed "gate" to Japan has been broken. Next year Parry returned whith bigger fleet and "forced" Japan to signt trade agreements whith USA. In 1857, american consul Townsend Harris was given permition to enter the capitol Edo. Japanese didnt liked that and wellcomed him whith astonishing many man on strrets and grave silance. In 1858 USA and Japan signed a pice-trade pact. After that every western country started sending their merchants to Japan.
It made Real mess in japan in years 1853-1868. Mess was also resarched today to see if any country broke some laws, or earlier pacts etc. Shogun had hard time after Parry's arrival. Had to consult whith all his daimyo to set stronger defances, as well as answears to US comodor. Result was the weaken of "real" power of shogun. Also near Osaka and Kyoto a rewolt too place. 2 strong clans have revolted against Tokugawa shogunat, they kidnapped emperor and announced the restoration of Meiji. Emperor once again become the head of Japan and it was the end of Edo (Tokugawa) time and begining of Meiji time [1868-1912]

All this is a translation of a book "Podróże do: Japonia" (Travels : Japan). I was just reading the 47 ronins from that book, as well as shortened history of Edo.

So to your "power rank":
1. The Shogunate:
2. Families allied to the Shogunate
3. Vassal Samurai
4. Farmers
5. Artisans and entertainers
6. Merchants
7. Eta (filth) or the Barakumin. Outcasts, outlaws, butchers and tanners (due to confucianism again), prostitutes, Anaztazioch etc.

I would just point, that Japanese didnt actually care for religion. They were religious, but more a ideologist, not servants of faith, or servants of church. So teachings of confucious were well adopted. But Religion changed when WW started taking preparations. Japan become nationalists. The goverment started using Shintoism religion to seize power and such. But thats a differant story.

So to put it again in Edo:
1- shogun
2- daimyo
3- lords of land (simmilar to mayor)- was upkeeping villages under all seeing eye of daiymo
4- polictics and powerfull samurai
5- samurai and merchants (at begining merchants were weak, but as samurais felt in debts, its hard to say they were more powerfull)
6- emperor - was still a power. Well defanded, and none even tought of assassinetion, as well as in Edo he was more a "doll" in hands of shogunate
7- artists - had power close to emperor, only that they werent defanded, didt have palace, unless they were favoured by those whith power.
8- farmers - yes better than european peasants, but none cried after they got killed, plundered, theft and such. Only ronin or just samurais.
9- prostitutes - lesser than farmer. Shogun banned prostitution as well as kabuki, and ordered them to show of outside aglomerations (cities, villages, towns, not in public). As for kabuki there were also some artists in this class right ?

Its more like this. But in japan it was simpler. There were shogun, daimyo, samurai, noble(merchant, artist, scientist, engeiner), townsfolk(fisherman, farmer, shopkeeper, artist, scientist, engeiner, prostitutes). Outlaws were not part of society unless they were ronin.

Also you put this:
"The power of mechants was extremely low at this time 1467-1573 and they didnt occupy a powerful position until the late Tokugawa."
Well Ieyasu Tokugawa was born in 1542. Was named shogun by "doll" emperor in 1603.
Momoyama time [1568-1600]- it was brutal war of powerful shoguns. Kyoto was captured by Nobunaga Oda [1534-1582]. Thou it was 30 years of brutal war and chaos, many artist rised their great creation back than. Both paitings, pottery and "silkworks"(?)[mayby should call it clothing?]. Also Hideyoshi Toyotomi(main general of Nobunaga Oda, who suicided after he was betrayed by Mitsuhide Akechi in 1582) wanted to take control of Korea and China in 1592 and 1597. He died in 1598.
Btw: you know what "sankin kotai" is ? And you know why Ieyasu Tokugawa set sankin kotai in 1635, when he died in 1616 ?

:)
I owe you thanks Los Tirano. Once again i spend more time reading Japan history. Just like 3 years ago. Stopped by education, work and brotherhood. Now no work or education for a year (break), only brotherhood and rotting infront of PC :D.

But according that Japan history writings start from 1000ad (before was only some art, no historical documents) we can say that 1st ronin was also around 1000ad. And Phalanx are in early Greece (500bc ?), so Hypaspist are when ? (in TR they are in 2000bs usually).

Also Los Tirano. Im from noble family (in middleages atleast). Now were post comunits avarage :/.
In brotherhood I'm a "none knows where from boy" that was taken under "wings" of sir knight, and tought that craftship.

The emperor is... difficult to classify. I would term him, in the reign of the Tokugawas, as a symbolic individual used to gain legitimacy. If we are talking about classes, groups of people, he doesnt really belong. Being just a tool of the ruling family/families. As you say eloquently, a 'doll'. You are right about his eventual use for nationalism and the rise of militarism and state Shinto religion.

You are right about the hypsapist. Doesnt fit for ronins to come in then. But hypsapist just doesnt fit. What about a peasant with a pointy stick?

Yep, yep, yep. Know about Edo etc. Dont forget that Japan never entirely closed its borders to foreign trade. Its late and i cant be bothered looking it up, but cities in Kyushu continue to trade with China and Portugese, later others. The policy of seclusion was almost total but not quite.

You've clearly got some knowledge there about the society and the economy of the time. :goodjob:

As for religious dimension. Im sure the buddhists of the time would disagree that they werent religious. Confucianism did end up being co-opted into the ethic of the state, so not religion as we would see it, more guidelines, rules, laws, prohibitions (look down upon the merchants and tanners).

Good reworking of the caste structure. I would remove the emperor to make it smoother. The emperor does not belong below samurai and merchants. And the merchants as we know gained more economic clout and influence than the samurai later on. Eventualy funding and powering ahead Japanese militarism.

Learning new things or relearning and clarifying old thoughts is always a worthy endevour. Good luck with that.

Are you really from a noble family? Its a common enough made claim? The young and immature with their inflated sense of self-worth do like to delude themselves so. Not saying you are deluded, just the majority who have such pretences before reality hits them. Now i sleep...

Los Tirano,

Cool man, cool ! :D You will have a massive heart attack, cool ! Take some.....hemp... it will relax your mind... :mischief: ;)

Yes, it's probably not a good idea to replace Hypsatist by Ronin. Meanwhile, there was no hypsaist in Japan. So what to do ?

In France, we got no problems with our Nobles: 90% of the greatest famillies were beheaded during the French Revolution :king: or killed during our last wars (WW I and WW II) :sniper: . What remain of them is mostly "end of race/breed".:old:

The Frog.

How aboutSome type of lesser ashigaru. We need to think of a weapon that's similar to what the hypaspist uses, and saw regular use in japan. I'll set off to do research.

What was the original justification for adding the hypaspist anyway? Should it not be a greek UU.

Warkirby

So far, the most suitable alternative I've found is the chokuto. It is a fairly ancient weapon from before samurai used katanas.

I got a picture, but since these are so ancient, very few exist for reference and so this is a replica.

Picture (http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/chokutoreview.htm)

What do you think?

So far, the most suitable alternative I've found is the chokuto. It is a fairly ancient weapon from before samurai used katanas.

I got a picture, but since these are so ancient, very few exist for reference and so this is a replica.

Picture (http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/chokutoreview.htm)

What do you think?

Yeap. Beautifull sword :) . Why not a Chokuto Warrior or something like that instead of Hypsaptist ? Some small changes of pictures,color, skin,... of the animated troop and... pff that's done. It would be nice with a small flag, as other Japanese troops. No ?;) Of course, same tech, value,....

The Frog.

I got the original info from a page of common misconceptions about samurai and ninjas. Qute educational, and contradicts Anaztazioch on at least one point about ninja.

Here: http://www.geocities.com/klancesegall/home.htm

WarKirby

Maybe replace hypaspist whith unarmored katana ashigaru (wearing onlu kimono)

And yes i am from noble family. In the time Poland was gone my family has emigrated into USA if i remember correctly. My family moved back 10 years before WW II. They got some economical knowlage and wanted to help Poland get back. In WW II they were in universyties, opposing Hitler. After WW II my grandfather (from mothers side) was coughed by Russian and moved to their "work camps". In time he returned, but died from diesiese and wekened body. His doughter is my mother. In middle ages I wouldnt come from noble family as my nobility comes from a woman. Now its emacipation so I AM a noble :D

As for emperor in "caste system" of Japan feudal system i needed, as he allways had servants, army and people that would fight for him. And it has been shown at the end of Edo right ?

An excerpt from the site I linked to:

" During the Sengoku period, the Emperor's life consisted of juggling important, dangerous men. The Takeda, Oda, and Imagawa (all important clans of the time) were all at one point set to march upon Kyoto, and it was up to the Emperor to see that he, and the city itself, survived the ordeal. He had no direct vassals; no samurai directly worked for the Court."

You should read it, Anaztazioch

EDIT: There you go

WarKirby

No direct yes.

But note that his word was the one that matters. IT WAS EMPEROR who named Ieyasu Tokugawa shogun. Takugawa might name him self as well, but then his title wouldnt mean as much as it mean. So the emperor had power, however he him self as man, not emperor, was weak.

Funny thing you put up name Takeda from Daitoo clan. They were succecors of Minamoto Aiki-no-jiu-jitsu. Also made some changes in Aiki-no-jiu-jitsu making their martial art more to use only in combat whith all kinds of swords, daggers, spears, polearms, staffs and hand to hand. Their art is named Daito-ryu, witch is today eighter rare or not existing. Schools such as Kendo, Aikido and Yoseikan ware made from Daito-ryu.

As for "it was up to the Emperor to see that he, and the city itself, survived the ordeal.". Well dont think that it was so clear when Oda took control and than suicided. Also Japanese Meiji line has over 120 emperors (123 or 125, dont matter actually). I havent heared of any longer dinasty witch werent abolished (destroyed). So the posision of emperor it self had power. It was up to who is on throne to use that power.

I might lay some light on that more but a bit lazy :)

AND FOR GOD SAKE IT WAS NEVER ANAZ !!!
I said it allready say Anaztazioch, Anetrith or Anaou. Next time i wont repost after wrong short. :lol: "its pure racism" :lol:

I got the original info from a page of common misconceptions about samurai and ninjas. Qute educational, and contradicts Anaztazioch on at least one point about ninja.

Here: http://www.geocities.com/klancesegall/home.htm

WarKirby

What point ?
*Ninja were mystical assassins. I cant say cowardly.
*This page does not show "how" the ninjas were "born".
*I said that ronin become a ninja. This page does not show that im wrong as i said "to put it simply".
*Weapons ninja used. Well they used all kinds of weapons as the were not honarary. But main thing is that ninja werent as rich as samurai, so could not afford well crafted "katana". Stright sword was cheaper and easier to craft.

"In Hayes's book, Mystic Arts of the Ninja, Hattori Hanzo, one of the most legendary ninja, is depicted in armor similar to that of a Samurai." - Wikipedia
So same equipment or not ? Werent bound to wear any specific. they wore and used what they keen on, or was needed in their mission.

*They did follow Bushido. But they werent bound to it as samurai was. They followed, only becouse they gave em profit, order, discipling in "ninja clan".

*Also real ninja for night operations didnt use "strict" color. Dark blue, dark brown-red (dont now, the squirell collor), (!)BLACK(!). Also used disguise, depending on details of operation (terrain, outside/inside)

*Their magic dissapearances was alchemy smoke bombs and hiding skills. Also used illusion (art of folling senses of a man, throwing a rock to take aways sumones attention IS part of illusion :crazyeye: )

*Shuriken was used when Ninja was order to leave evidance of assassination. Also shuriken requires exact hit, or target will survive.

This page also says "two famous examples were the Koga and Iga". Koga and Iga were a "birth" place of ninjas.

"Since the samurai code Bushido forbade such tactics as dishonorable, a daimyo could not expect his own troops to perform the tasks required, and thus had to buy or broker the assistance of ninja to perform selective strikes, espionage, assassination, and infiltration of enemy strongholds (Turnbull 2003)." Wikipedia
So they werent loyal to daimyo, but to money.

But my mistake was "putting it simply". And also i was more whith Bushido witch said than dishonored must regain his honor or loose his status. But Said it that Bushido is non linear. And it seems that ninja is actually a person skilled.... well ninjitsu :lol:
Thanks, without you i might not look into this ;)

And it was you in post #67 to say ninjato. :)

And for end. Hattori Hanzō in wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattori_Hanzo
Hattori Hanzō (服部半蔵?) (1541–1596), also formally known as Masanari or Masashige (服部正成 Hattori Masanari?), the son of a certain Hattori Yasunaga, was a head of clan from Iga region of Japan, famous for its Ninja, including Hattori.
From this you can say that his clan was a ninja clan not samurai. Only their disguise, lies and strong daimyo/shoguns favourn held them as respected clan. Normally samurai treated ninja as ronin. Shamefull, dishonored untill ninja kicked his ass in public.

Hold on for another 30 mins or so.

I can't argue on an empty stomach
:lol:

Post again soon

WarKirby

*Weapons ninja used. Well they used all kinds of weapons as the were not honarary. But main thing is that ninja werent as rich as samurai, so could not afford well crafted "katana". Stright sword was cheaper and easier to craft.
is contradicted by:
Common Myth #3: "N" used straight swords, different from samurai swords.

No, no, no, and no. Remember what I said above about the black pajamas? This was another way to tell the bad guy (in black, straight sword) from the good guy. These things DIDN'T exist. And you don't see them in Japanese "N" films. It's pure Hollywood.



*They did follow Bushido. But they werent bound to it as samurai was. They followed, only becouse they gave em profit, order, discipling in "ninja clan".

Contradicted by:

As to being "seperate" from samurai, that's bull too. The two most famous "N" in history, Hattori Hanzo and Yagyuu Jubei, were both samurai. Hattori Hanzo, "Devil Hanzo", was Tokugawa Ieyasu's chief of clandestine operations, and was noted for being from Iga, a hotbed of "N" activity. He ran Ieyasu's spying campaigns, and possibly more. As a senior retainer, he held the rank of Hatamoto--now, one couldn't be a hatamoto without being a samurai--so how could he be a samurai if a "N" couldn't be one?

Yagyuu Jubei, of the famous Yagyuu clan (also from Iga, and masters of the afore-mentioned Iga-Ueno Castle) is also famous as a "N". The Yagyuu were from Iga, were well known practitioners of clandestine arts, and were appointed hatamoto and kenjutsu instructors to the Tokugawa Shoguns. Most of the legends around Jubei stem from when he was "dismissed" for several years from the Shogun's service, only to be recalled later. This prompted speculation that he was off conducting missions under cover. No one knows, but again--a "N" who was obviously, and undeniably, a samurai.

And also by:

To begin this explanation its probably best to state the very basic misunderstanding: that ninja and samurai were two different types of warrior. In fact, ninja (or shinobi, as they were known during the Sengoku Jidai) were simply the special ops equivalent of the samurai. Some books and websites expound the idea that ninja were the warriors who were used when a daimyo needed something done that the "honorable samurai" could not do. Instead, when a job came along (such as spying, assassination, scouting, infiltrating, etc.) that your regular samurai simply was under qualified to do, a daimyo would seek out a samurai who was. There were some samurai who specialized in this; two famous examples were the Koga and Iga ninja who sided with Tokugawa Ieyasu. Hattori Hanzo, who was from the ninja, held the title of hatamoto (banner-bearer), the highest rank a samurai (and only a samurai) could have.

WarKirby

Im afraid you seem to have been pulled up on those points Anaztazioch. To work out truly what ninja's were or weren't and what they did or didn't stand for or did and didnt't use, wouldnt it be best to look at their history and the knowledge kept by the few who remain tied to the old tradition? The few who might just know.

Im thinking books by or about Masaaki Hatsumi. Who is the thirty-fourth master of the Togakure-ryu ninjutsu school. A book by Stephen Hayes explains what he learnt by studying under this man. Its an interesting book, it talks about the straight sword, the cheap but effective equipment, philosophy etc etc. If anyone would know, it is him.

Tempted to beef up the power of the ninja. Make it capable of taking other melee units. Might unbalance, and lead to armies of ninja's. Battlefield use goes against their 'strategies' i think. :lol: But surely a band of warriors should not be able to take them!

Still it like i say that medival english army used swords.
And you say they used longbows.

Both of us are right, as England used both swords and longbows, but longbow was their priority, prinmary, most common or what ever you want to call it. But that does not mean they Did not use swords.

In ninjas. They followed bushido, but Bushido forbids assassination, illusion, trickery. So Ninja are following, but breking it the same way. And that refers to narly all ninja. So even they are following it, you can say they dont, as they break it. Get it ?

As for Devil Honzoo. Yes he was born in samurai family, but he left it for training. He left his father, and as for under age samurai thats leaving master, so according to bushido he became ronin right ? But after Tokugawa "recruited" him, Ieyasu became his new master therefore "restoring" his status. Also if a ninja is known for being no saumirai, its harder for him to bluff, persuade other samurai. Like to pesuade some army general into getting into trap. General will never listen to non samurai or ronin right ?

Were both right, as Honzoo might be fooling us even after his death, by leaving false information for our historicans :).

As for oni hatamoto rank, well he served shogun didnt he ? In our Polish politice, we got president and premier (2 highest rank members of goverment) are twin brother from same politic party. They give minister posisionts to their own party members, even if unqualified. So it eneded like having a lawer as education minister, and he ist helping our education, but police officers to stop running from school and drug dealers that get in school to sell drugs... And in Poland its students that sell drug. 1/2 of drug users are dealers in here... Honzo becoming hatamoto is same politic trick.

But most importantly - how is this helping TR ?

@ Los Tirano

True enought. As it was in archery, we cant be certain of truth relying to only once source. None of us tought about it in archery, and neighter me nor War Kirby seems to think of it this time. Kirby used his page i used wikipedia. Sad is that later he used wikipedia against me ;(
:lol:

Did ninja ever fight on battlefield?

I'll look into it. They would make a good unit.

@Anaztazioch: It's WarKirby. All one word. Don't split it or shorten it. If I have to use your full name, you must show same courtesy.

WarKirby

I heared only tales of few of em "clearing" tens of enemy warriors. Not much but a rumor i would say.
But as it was said that Honzo used armor simmilar to samurai, he could as well use it in battle right ? Right ?

...I dont know why i split it... Its like i read it first time as slip as so it stay.

Shall work on doing my best.

A l