Please discuss your ideas about all Gunpowder units from Musketman up to end-game infantry.

Hi all,

It's about French UU: Musketeers.
As i already say, this unit should not receive 2 MP but defence and/or city attack bonuses. The Kings of France used them as private body guards and as special assault teams.
They were few but powerfull, as they all came from the "small" but poor nobility of the Realm. As Nobles, they all receive a military education from the age of 6 until they joined the Army.

So, i would rather saw them as:
- combat value: 9 at least, 10 in my opinion.
- cost: increased by 10%. Musketeers came from Nobility...
- free promo: one or more of these ones. City defense , City attack.
- +25% against melee units. They were trained since their youth at hand to hand fight.

Any comments, guys ?

The Frog.

Hi all,

It's about French UU: Musketeers.
As i already say, this unit should not receive 2 MP but defence and/or city attack bonuses. The Kings of France used them as private body guards and as special assault teams.
They were few but powerfull, as they all came from the "small" but poor nobility of the Realm. As Nobles, they all receive a military education from the age of 6 until they joined the Army.

So, i would rather saw them as:
- combat value: 9 at least, 10 in my opinion.
- cost: increased by 10%. Musketeers came from Nobility...
- free promo: one or more of these ones. City defense , City attack.
- +25% against melee units. They were trained since their youth at hand to hand fight.

Any comments, guys ?

The Frog.

in the game their strenght i think is about 9 isnt it? and the mucketmen class gets some percentage against melee. Do you propose an additonal 25% ve. melee...

Maybe they should receive a city defese bonus. or something.(if thats what they were historically known for)

what about adding this as either Germany's marine replacement or their infantry replacement?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=176364

It would be great if we could have SAS instead of commando for Britain.

WarKirby

@ Hian (might i use only this for a short?)

They were trained since their youth at hand to hand fight.

Hand to hand is fists, knuckles, katars, punch daggers. I belive they were trained is sabre, as hand to hand was "reserved" for drunk aggresive bastards :).
Or they Really ran at armored knight whith fists and empty muskets :lol:

But leaving that behind, dont you think it would make them too strong ? Especially knowing that France has "Best" starting place in TR world map + their aggresive trait ?
Mayby making them stronger, but giving them a unit limit like 2 musketeers per city ?


And putting cannon as gunpowder unit. Can cannon bombard from ship ? like use a galleon and cannon on galleon to bombard ? Or the cannons might actually be used as defansive units to fight for its transport ship, but the transport ship will recive coteral(easiest word on earth) dammage, to avoid "immortal" galleons ?
I say this fits both ships and gunpowder units.

Or should we give unit limit to all Unique Units... What you say ?

A number limit on UU's seems good to a degree, but japan had whole armies of samurai, so it would be illogical there.

I vote no

WarKirby

So we will have 100 types of samurai for japan
X
)
X


But as for samurai why wont we change them into Kensai (yes i know that there was like 1 whith that title, as you said it somewhere else), and make a rest of Japan units as Katana ashigaru witch would get +2 strength after resarching feudalism ?
And as we were talking in Melee Units threat, a samurai was not equal to other samurai. One was stronger like Musashi, and others like Yoshioka family. (well Musashi was a ronin... but i just wanted to find a good compare of skill)

I want to somehow "destroy" stack of 30 unique units. As they are Unique units not regular ones.
Also there is other chance, lets make like minor unique unit (samurai, french musketman) and major unique unit (kensai, musketeer). Major unique units will have a limit. Does that sound better ?

The main problem I see is where to put kensei.

There are many traits samurai have that katana ashigaru do not, so upgrading at a certain tech might be hard. Not only that but it would not change the look of the ashigaru and it would upgrade all ashigaru, not just fufture ones. That is a bad idea.

We need somewhere to put the kensei unit. I just cannot think of anything to replace

You are taking my words too strickt.
+2 strenght was a proposal not "order". You can change it some how.

As for kensei placemant. Well it should be 1 unique unit (kensei) for each city in Japan. And it like we could have katana ashigaru and a kensai katan ashikagu (name is up to you). The kensei will have strenght bonus as some modifiers to attack/defance. Also cost more hammers. Think that kind of ide might work ? (do not take words too strict)

But we're(I am) getting off topic (gunpowder)

ok to melee thread

French Musketeers:
- Cost increased by 12.5%
- Free Garrison Promotion
- Free City Raider Promotion
- Move only 1

Its a pity no one cared to copy the good suggestions about the Red coads from the main Forum in here. :sad:

The Red Coats? I must have missed that

Instead having Red Coats replace Musketmen or Riflemen, make them a unit that apperars between the 2 units. I think if riflemen as US Civil War to end of WWI. Musketmen early adoption of gunpowder to riflemen.

cya, Rob

French Musketeers:
- Cost increased by 12.5%
- Free Garrison Promotion
- Free City Raider Promotion
- Move only 1

Its a pity no one cared to copy the good suggestions about the Red coads from the main Forum in here. :sad:

Hi,

It seems very good like that. Closer to a realistic French Musketeer.
Thx. :D :goodjob:

The Frog

I'm going to start playing this mod as soon as it works with Warlords so I'm not really sure if this is needed but, it would be Realistic to make a late medievel cannon unit thats mainly used against massed foot soldiers packed in close formations. From what I know of history early cannons would only be effective against packed infantry due to the low velocity and acuracy of the rounds. So a cannon type unit with a 100% bonus against meelee units?

I'm going to start playing this mod as soon as it works with Warlords so I'm not really sure if this is needed but, it would be Realistic to make a late medievel cannon unit thats mainly used against massed foot soldiers packed in close formations. From what I know of history early cannons would only be effective against packed infantry due to the low velocity and acuracy of the rounds. So a cannon type unit with a 100% bonus against meelee units?

Hi ZeroRange,

Your idea is quite good. From around 1450 to around 1600, Cannons were not very powerful. Meanwhile, in some Battles, they were useless enough to allow a victory. (1515, Marignan in Italy, the French brake the Swiss Mercenaries by an intelligent use of their connons, whereas they were losing the battle)(Ottoman victories were mostly made by an accurate use of their cannons during the 15th and 16th centuries)
So, why not ?
If you hope this unit to be added then i ask you to find a good graphic to represent it, and to let in this thread your idea about the tech nedeed, the coast, and so on.

The Frog.

I would guess them to be equal to trebuchets in cost. I've been reading this page http://www.middelaldercentret.dk/cannon2.htm#eksemplarer, and I haven't come to any conclusions about new technology or found any decent graphics. Intresting reading. How different is the tech tree from vanilla? I should probably learn a little more about the mod before make to many suggestions. heh Oh well

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=193059

A good looking gunpowder units along with the arquebusiers I had in earlier post, eagle warrior, french longbowmen, other foot knight infantry type guys.:D

Well anyway this particular gunpowder unit has a backpack.:crazyeye:

However I think it is suppose to be german though. Maybe could possibly use it as ethnic units for some other civ.:)

My suggestion is to give every gun poweder unit a 15% attack city bonus. That way, infantry becomes a more cost efective method when attacking cities over cavalry and tanks

They are allready not affected by walls. That lowers defanders strength by 50% (still they have 50% bonus from culture, but 100% bonus from castle is lost).

Instead having Red Coats replace Musketmen or Riflemen, make them a unit that apperars between the 2 units. I think if riflemen as US Civil War to end of WWI. Musketmen early adoption of gunpowder to riflemen.

cya, Rob

IMHO, too, there should be an intermediate upgrade for gunpowder units covering the period from 30 Years War to Crimean War, including Napoleonic Era. Those should look like Redcoats and be called Fusilier or Line Infantry. It should have graphics of arquebusier (not really a fitting name for the guy) from here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=166690

Suggested stats: Cost 115, Strength 12, +100% vs. melee units, +25% vs. mounted (introduction of bayonet). Maybe +10% defence on plains and grasslands (!) to reflect the love for using formations and manoeuvers during the age - flat terrain is most suited for this kind of warfare.

Comes with Chemistry (or else make a separate tech, called wheel lock that requires it, and is also a prerequisite to rifling), Grenadier gets a +50% bonus against those too.
Probably Rifling should require Steel, as Riflemen are supposed to come a bit later now.

Make Redcoats a unique version of those, with Strength 14 and +50% against either mounted units or grenadiers (Waterloo).

Rename musketmen to arquebusiers to reflect that they no longer reflect XV- early XIX century, but only XV-early XVII.

This idea I also like

I think technically, riflemen are supposed to be the type of infantry unit from Napoleon era to end of American Civil war. After that you have machine gunners and infantry. Machine gunners would be post Amer Civil war until end of WWI, while infantry made more of an appearance around Spanish American war until after WWII, when marines and SAM infantry would become more prevalent - and tanks. I tend to think of musketmen as first appearing in the 1300's and lasting until early 1700's.

And, is it just me, or does it seem weird that frigates appear before cannons? I mean, what were they attacking with if not cannons?

Oh no worries, they just havn't figured out how to mount the gun on wheels yet :)

I allways resarch engeinering THAN gunpowder, so i get cannons same time as frigates.