Please discuss your ideas about Religions in game.

Does christianity ever spread on it's own?

Does christianity ever spread on it's own?

Yes. I founded Christianity in my latest game... and couldn't use my missionary! The turn before he got to the targeted city, that city would go christian. When the English dropped a city up in Newfoundland (I'm playing American), London swapped a few turns later.

Yes. I founded Christianity in my latest game... and couldn't use my missionary! The turn before he got to the targeted city, that city would go christian. When the English dropped a city up in Newfoundland (I'm playing American), London swapped a few turns later.

Hmmm. Weird. Because I'm playing as England, and it has not spread to any of my cities except for the ones I have sent missionaries too. And it's been quite a while now too...

Have you been Muslim or Jewish before you became christian and if yes have you set up your state religion to christianity as well? have you installed 2.1.1 patch?

This is a really big idea that might be difficult to implement, but maybe you could change it so that a Great Prophet is necessary in order to found a religion. This would be more realistic than having religions founded by techs, and you could actually have a choice as to what religion you wanted to found. Then you could make great shrines regular wonders, but only buildable in holy cities.

If possible, you could add a "customizable" religion that is named after your Civ, i.e. Roman Religion, English Religion, Aztec Religion. This religion would be unique to your Civ, and could not spread, sort of like you did with Judaism. It could offer a certain bonus, like the trade routes bonus you gave to Judaism, but better. Then if you founded one of the religions that do spread, you could convert convert to that, and you would lose the bonus, but you could spread it to other Civs. The unique religions would not get missionaries, monasteries, or great shrines, but would allow you to build temples and cathedrals even if you are isolated and don't found your own religion. This would be reflective of the fact that all civilizations/empires/tribes/random groups of people have their own religions, but these never spread to other regions, unlike the big ones that did.

This is a really big idea that might be difficult to implement, but maybe you could change it so that a Great Prophet is necessary in order to found a religion. This would be more realistic than having religions founded by techs, and you could actually have a choice as to what religion you wanted to found. Then you could make great shrines regular wonders, but only buildable in holy cities.

If possible, you could add a "customizable" religion that is named after your Civ, i.e. Roman Religion, English Religion, Aztec Religion. This religion would be unique to your Civ, and could not spread, sort of like you did with Judaism. It could offer a certain bonus, like the trade routes bonus you gave to Judaism, but better. Then if you founded one of the religions that do spread, you could convert convert to that, and you would lose the bonus, but you could spread it to other Civs. The unique religions would not get missionaries, monasteries, or great shrines, but would allow you to build temples and cathedrals even if you are isolated and don't found your own religion. This would be reflective of the fact that all civilizations/empires/tribes/random groups of people have their own religions, but these never spread to other regions, unlike the big ones that did.
Yes Hian the Frog, Spartan and I (amongst others) discussed this in the old thread. The team was putting this issue aside until some of the bugs were eliminated.

@ kaoruchan42

Ankenaton is right. At that time i wait for the next release, the warlord compatible one and bug fixed.
As Ankenaton wrote, some ideas were discussed. Something good could awake for all of our ideas... Be patient, as us ! If you have time to waste, read previous posts of the last two weeks in the gerenal thread. You will read what we hope to be added...

The Frog.

Hmm post your ideas to this thread about religion guys. The old discussions are forgotten. :)

Before you judge the new values please read them carefully, and you should not underestimate the power of Missionaries. Religions with more missionaries are easier to spread than the plain spread factor:

This is the planned spread rate for Gold version:

RELIGION_JUDAISM, was 0%, will become 33%, 1 Missionary

RELIGION_CHRISTIANITY was 12% will become 65%, 6 Missionaries

RELIGION_ISLAM was 37%, will become 75%, 4 Missionaries (Plans to remove Missionaries and make every conquered city convert to Islam: in this case Spread rate 60%, no Missionaries until modern times)

RELIGION_HINDUISM remains at 50%, 2 Missionaries

RELIGION_BUDDHISM was 50%, will become 75%, 3 Missionaries

RELIGION_ZOROASTRIANISM remains at 45%, 1 Missionary (maybe 2)

RELIGION_TAOISM was 45% will become 50%, 2 Missionaries

You see the boost in new religions, so be pleased. :D

Regarding some comments about Judaism and its 'spread rate' in real world. The jews were mostly living spread over the world before they have taken Palestine as their home country (oh oh I will be flamed now :D ). But only because they lived spread over the worl didn't mean that Judaism spread as a religion. You have to understand this difference, because they didn;t invite people to become Jewish therefore no spread rate at all in real world. Only in few cases, when a Jewish mother was married to a christian man, the children become Jewish after the Jewish law. But in most cases they are expelled from the community anyway. But still I think 33% is good enough to give it some power in game. SInce Judaism has better trade rates in game once the temples are built, it shall be a small but strong religion. Otherwise it becomes unbalanced.

Regarding Zoroastrianism, it was the major religion before the Islamic invasion. Between Buddhists and Hinduists in the east from West India (Pakistan) until west Iraq (at that time greater Iran) up north to Caucasus and Asian steppes to the borders of CHina in the east and Roman/Byzanz in the West every one was Zoroastrian. The spread rate started 1500 BC until 651 CE, and it had Millions of followers. Therefore it is not compareable to Judaism at all (regarding some comments that nowadays there are 20 Mio Jewish world wide?). Only the path of history has changed its destiny... so enough history for now

Hmm post your ideas to this thread about religion guys. The old discussions are forgotten. :)

Before you judge the new values please read them carefully, and you should not underestimate the power of Missionaries. Religions with more missionaries are easier to spread than the plain spread factor:

This is the planned spread rate for Gold version:

RELIGION_JUDAISM, was 0%, will become 33%, 1 Missionary

RELIGION_CHRISTIANITY was 12% will become 65%, 6 Missionaries

RELIGION_ISLAM was 37%, will become 75%, 4 Missionaries (Plans to remove Missionaries and make every conquered city convert to Islam: in this case Spread rate 60%, no Missionaries until modern times)

RELIGION_HINDUISM remains at 50%, 2 Missionaries

RELIGION_BUDDHISM was 50%, will become 75%, 3 Missionaries

RELIGION_ZOROASTRIANISM remains at 45%, 1 Missionary (maybe 2)

RELIGION_TAOISM was 45% will become 50%, 2 Missionaries

You see the boost in new religions, so be pleased. :D

Regarding some comments about Judaism and its 'spread rate' in real world. The jews were mostly living spread over the world before they have taken Palestine as their home country (oh oh I will be flamed now :D ). But only because they lived spread over the worl didn't mean that Judaism spread as a religion. You have to understand this difference, because they didn;t invite people to become Jewish therefore no spread rate at all in real world. Only in few cases, when a Jewish mother was married to a christian man, the children become Jewish after the Jewish law. But in most cases they are expelled from the community anyway. But still I think 33% is good enough to give it some power in game. SInce Judaism has better trade rates in game once the temples are built, it shall be a small but strong religion. Otherwise it becomes unbalanced.

Regarding Zoroastrianism, it was the major religion before the Islamic invasion. Between Buddhists and Hinduists in the east from West India (Pakistan) until west Iraq (at that time greater Iran) up north to Caucasus and Asian steppes to the borders of CHina in the east and Roman/Byzanz in the West every one was Zoroastrian. The spread rate started 1500 BC until 651 CE, and it had Millions of followers. Therefore it is not compareable to Judaism at all (regarding some comments that nowadays there are 20 Mio Jewish world wide?). Only the path of history has changed its destiny... so enough history for now

Houman,

It seems good IMO. A low value for Judaism, medium for most of the religions,....
I only disagree on one point: 75% to buddism ! I agree it's a major religion but 60-65% would be better IMO.
Meanwhile, before any "true" conclusion, it should be tested....

The Frog.

Houman,

It seems good IMO. A low value for Judaism, medium for most of the religions,....
I only disagree on one point: 75% to buddism ! I agree it's a major religion but 60-65% would be better IMO.
Meanwhile, before any "true" conclusion, it should be tested....

The Frog.
Yes I agree Buddhism should be set at either 60-65% and perhaps Islam should be increased to 65%. Just imagine what the world would have been like without Islam's spread through Asia and Africa. Would it have been a less dangerous world. Or would it have been one where Zoroastrinism squared off against Christianity. Hey maybe I can write an alternative history science fiction novel on this premise, huh. ;)

Buddhism has too high spread rate.

As does christianity. Seeing as it is more of a missionary religion, how about giving it no natural spread and unlimited missionaries?

Taoism needs a higher spread rate. It's just too weak.

hey guy's

I d like to second what the Frog said:
values look good; but have to be tested

(As we can see in South East Asia; budhism is slowly being surpassed as most spread religion by Islam (Indonesia; Philipines; malaysia; ...)
so I d say higher spread ratio for Islam than Budhism)

A nice map as reference:
http://www.wadsworth.com/religion_d/special_features/popups/maps/matthews_world/content/map_01.html

Yeah, this values need to be tested. The map is interesting but not very accurate. South-East Iran are Sunnis, as well as the Kurdish part in the middle-west. Iraq is 60% Shia and Lebanon is Shia too. Not sure about Syria... If these obvious errors are done here (cmon guys even if you wouldn;t know that, watch News on TV and you get who is SHia and who is Sunni)

I am wondering how many errors have been done in far east sofar.... ;)

Yeah, this values need to be tested. The map is interesting but not very accurate. South-East Iran are Sunnis, as well as the Kurdish part in the middle-west. Iraq is 60% Shia and Lebanon is Shia too. Not sure about Syria... If these obvious errors are done here (cmon guys even if you wouldn;t know that, watch News on TV and you get who is SHia and who is Sunni)

I am wondering how many errors have been done in far east sofar.... ;)
I thought Lebanon was at least one third Maronite Christian and there is a sizable Druze minority (don't know the percentage). :crazyeye:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4581796#post4581796

the lopez inquisition mod, he says the ai knows how to use it. seems interesting enough. Although I forgot how inquisistion was done by realism mod maybe look at this?....

and the lopez finished favorite religion

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=187622

@Ankenaton

Of course sorry, I expressed myself not clearly. Of course Libanon is about 40%-50% Christian. Shia is sort of originating there though, which was pretty much importet by Persian Kings about 400 years ago into Iran. I was going to say that South Libanon is an important source of Shia religion beside Iran.

The Inquisis are not used by AI in TR. If Lopez's Inquisis are better. I will try to implement them this weekend. The Lopez favorite religion is already flagged for Beta 2 or Gold version. ;)

@Ankenaton

Of course sorry, I expressed myself not clearly. Of course Libanon is about 40%-50% Christian. Shia is sort of originating there though, which was pretty much importet by Persian Kings about 400 years ago into Iran. I was going to say that South Libanon is an important source of Shia religion beside Iran.

The Inquisis are not used by AI in TR. If Lopez's Inquisis are better. I will try to implement them this weekend. The Lopez favorite religion is already flagged for Beta 2 or Gold version. ;)
@Houman

Thanks for the clarification bro', I was not trying to sweat you, lol. I thought maybe there had been a huge population explosion of Shia throughout Lebanon.

One area of Civ gameplay that I feel could have been stronger is the religious aspect. Now, I know that even the limited spiritual dimensions introduced in the game represent a certain risk to the franchise, political, social, and economic realities being what they are. So it is true that their introduction in the first place was a decision of some courage. However, I find (as have many others) that ultimately they feel like an unfinished engine at best, or simple window dressing at worst.

Even a cursory examination of world history will show the tremendous influence religion has had on human history, for good or ill. Given that it is such an important part of our affairs, I think it deserves a better system.

My basic idea (and I apologize ahead of time if it has already been suggested) is to introduce a religious system more closely modeled after the civics system. Civ 4 has done away with clear cut government types, instead allowing the player to choose from a menu of societal outlooks, each with certain characteristics. I would like to see a similar system with respect to religion.

There would be categories like the civics system, where the player could choose his outlook. For instance, one category might be "Belief Structure" or something, with options ranging from polythiesm to shamanism to even no accepted supernatural entity(ies).

Individual choices within a category would become available with certain techs, both religious (for instance, Monothiesm might unlock a Monothiesm option under the appropriate category) and more secular (for instance, hunting might unlock nature worship or shamanic aspects). Certain combinations of choices would result in the adoption or founding of a religion.

This system readily allows for derivitive religions, by having some with more closely related characteristics. For instance, after Chrisitanity has been founded, someone who alters one of the categories might found Lutheranism. Such a system allows for a more complex diplomatic situation, with more closely related religions perhaps tolerating others better (although historically, it has often been the other way around).

In my opinion, such a system has a number of advantages:

1. Detail: I know many people (myself included) simply like our grand strategy games to be as detailed as possible. Not everyone agrees, and certainly at some point the contention gets absurd, but currently religions are too bland.

2. Diversity: Obviously we would want to be careful to treat every belief with respect. But there are significant differences in these various spiritual views, and I think that a blanket happiness system sells them short.

3. Diplomacy: Currently it's either "I love you" or "I hate you" when it comes to religion. This system would allow diplomacy to be influenced by the similarities and differences of their respective beliefs.

4. Schisms: Although this is in apparent contrast to number 3, this system also allows for division along religious lines in the form of a schism. Either based on historical factors or on a some random chance, a subsequent developing religion might be considering schismatic, prompting an intense dislike between practicioners of the old and new beliefs.

5. Increase tech balance: By spreading out the religious tenets in a way similar to the civics, we can improve the tech balance. By increasing the number of religions, we can decrease the mysticism early advantage in founding religions.

Well, that's essentially what I've got. Obviously the idea is rough, and to be honest, I don't know how to execute it anyway. I'm one of those selfish people who makes a post about what I'd like to see, but I don't have the skills to make it happen.

Thanks for reading.

One area of Civ gameplay that I feel could have been stronger is the religious aspect. Now, I know that even the limited spiritual dimensions introduced in the game represent a certain risk to the franchise, political, social, and economic realities being what they are. So it is true that their introduction in the first place was a decision of some courage. However, I find (as have many others) that ultimately they feel like an unfinished engine at best, or simple window dressing at worst.

Even a cursory examination of world history will show the tremendous influence religion has had on human history, for good or ill. Given that it is such an important part of our affairs, I think it deserves a better system.

My basic idea (and I apologize ahead of time if it has already been suggested) is to introduce a religious system more closely modeled after the civics system. Civ 4 has done away with clear cut government types, instead allowing the player to choose from a menu of societal outlooks, each with certain characteristics. I would like to see a similar system with respect to religion.

There would be categories like the civics system, where the player could choose his outlook. For instance, one category might be "Belief Structure" or something, with options ranging from polythiesm to shamanism to even no accepted supernatural entity(ies).

Individual choices within a category would become available with certain techs, both religious (for instance, Monothiesm might unlock a Monothiesm option under the appropriate category) and more secular (for instance, hunting might unlock nature worship or shamanic aspects). Certain combinations of choices would result in the adoption or founding of a religion.

This system readily allows for derivitive religions, by having some with more closely related characteristics. For instance, after Chrisitanity has been founded, someone who alters one of the categories might found Lutheranism. Such a system allows for a more complex diplomatic situation, with more closely related religions perhaps tolerating others better (although historically, it has often been the other way around).

In my opinion, such a system has a number of advantages:

1. Detail: I know many people (myself included) simply like our grand strategy games to be as detailed as possible. Not everyone agrees, and certainly at some point the contention gets absurd, but currently religions are too bland.

2. Diversity: Obviously we would want to be careful to treat every belief with respect. But there are significant differences in these various spiritual views, and I think that a blanket happiness system sells them short.

3. Diplomacy: Currently it's either "I love you" or "I hate you" when it comes to religion. This system would allow diplomacy to be influenced by the similarities and differences of their respective beliefs.

4. Schisms: Although this is in apparent contrast to number 3, this system also allows for division along religious lines in the form of a schism. Either based on historical factors or on a some random chance, a subsequent developing religion might be considering schismatic, prompting an intense dislike between practicioners of the old and new beliefs.

5. Increase tech balance: By spreading out the religious tenets in a way similar to the civics, we can improve the tech balance. By increasing the number of religions, we can decrease the mysticism early advantage in founding religions.

Well, that's essentially what I've got. Obviously the idea is rough, and to be honest, I don't know how to execute it anyway. I'm one of those selfish people who makes a post about what I'd like to see, but I don't have the skills to make it happen.

Thanks for reading.

Hi man,

Interesting. I agree with many things but not all.
Religion was/is/will be one of the main factor of hates between peoples. This is not enough showed in Civ4. The system is very basic, you are right. It could be improved a little to make diplomacy more interesting....

The Frog.

@ LeperColony

I agree with you on the schisms between branches of religion (e.g. Christian Schism: Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant; Muslim Schism: Shiite, Shia, Alawite, Druze, Sufism; Jewish Schism: Orthodox, Conservative, Reform; Hindu Schism: Hinduism, Sikhism, Janism, Buddhism; etc.), would be a wonderful change to the basic religious system if it can be modeled and coded effectively. Many of the great conflicts were often fought between sects within a particular religion. This would definitely be a subtler implementation rather than "I love you" or "I hate you" as presented within the current system. However I do not believe that we have to totally scrap the current system. Perhaps we can graft the religious civics options that you write about onto the current and/or tweaked version of the religious system. This will be an interesting undertaking if we committ ourselves to it. ;)

More comments from my full TR 2.13 game...


I was wondering about the dominant religion feature, and was surprised that even after changing my civic to Free Religion, that the dominant religion could still kick other religions out of a city.

1. This really makes Free Religion less valuable, because hardly any cities will have multiple religions in them once a "dominant" one gets inside your borders.

2. It also seems to go against the "Realism" principle, in that states that do have a system of "Free Religion" have all sorts of religions inside their borders.


I know you guys are tinkering with this aspect of the mod still, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to have a Free Religion civic that your Civ won't obey.:)

There is no more Local or Dominant religion in the current Warlord TR Beta 2 release. We control the spread rate by different means again.

Flatery: Hokay, so as a mod newbie let me say that the package you've put together is the best I've played thusfar. Sevo's running a close 2nd with the added civics and all the bells & whistles, but TR 2.1.3 runs much more smoothly on my machine and has non-capped unit experience (what's the point of lvl 4 promotions if your units never get more than 17 exp?).

Real ?: That being said, what is with the religions in this mod (Civilpedia runs a bit short here for the mod)? I am playing as China (Fin/Ind) and found Hinduism... I read that Judaism is only spread through state, but my Hindu missionary couldn't spread my religion to other Civs either? Any info as to how the religions are set up would be appreciated (spread % rate, # of missionaries allowed, non-state missionary spread even possible?).

Thanks all. (Again, just incase warlords mod is different, playing the vanilla Civ v1.61 w/TR 2.1.3)

P.S. Other subjects that I'd really like to see be included in civilpedia in future versions (though these I think I have been able to figure out through searching the forums): Inquisitor - how to use + effects of inquisition + if usuable against other civs (just plopping +2 :mad: to a opponents new city would be useful, religion or nay), Informant, and the Assassin/Ninja.

Much thought has gone into religion spread rates, missionaries, balancing bonuses, etc. I don't think we have talked about the "life of a church", (with apologies to my pastor). :religion:

If a city has a non-state religion, how long does it stay there? If there is no inquisition, it will stay there forever, with it's builidings producing benefits to the city. Sounds like a nice tolerant, pluralistic, modern thought. Probably not "realism." Religions do rise and fall over time. I have seen religious symbols on cities 2,000 years after they were taken over by barbarians. There are true believers in every religion, but most people will do what they see most of the people around them doing.

This mod already recognizes non-state neglect of holy shrines after 75 turns and they relocate to a hospitable coutry.

Suggestion (numbers are negotiable):

Religions would not decline if there is no state religion or Free Relgion is in effect.
The process should be faster under Organized Religion and even faster under Theocracy/Barbarian Rule.

After 75 turns of out-of-favor status, religious buildings must be rebuilt.
After 150 turns of out-of-favor status, the religious buildings go away and so does the community (religious symbol taken from city graphic). Missionaries could re-establish it.

jbolton0421 - I like your idea!
but maybe to remove religions not automatically but after those period, there would be a certain chance to dissapear. So only luck will decide if religion survive out-of-favor status

But what if a non state religion has its temples build ? Will they die as well ?

But what if a non state religion has its temples build ? Will they die as well ?

I would think the temples go away too. The temple/monastary/cathederal themselves help/harm the city because adherents are following that religion. If the religion is no longer practiced in the city those buildings would fall into disrepair and no longer have an effect.

Chance could be a part of whether or not a religion continues. I think the the chance would reduce over time (if it is still in a hostile environment).

The question I posted here is no longer applicable.

I think that Judaism is quite the underdog in TR.I understand the unhealthiness that pigs give,but it seems the only resource they like are fish.How about sheep?That said,I really like the added +/- that resources give with religions.

They give + from wheat.
Also +20% trade yeald is quite high.
Temple of Artmedis gives 100% and is 10 times more expensive and can be only one.

Here's a copy of my original post (made in another thread) about what I felt were some good suggestions regarding an update for Islam, as well as the arguments and reasoning behind them.

Important Suggestion to Houman/Mod Developers

First off, I'm very excited about this mod, and happy that it has finally been released in a high quality Warlords version!

There was one important suggestion I wanted to make, that I feel will greatly improve the historical accuracy of this mod.

Islam has been given a disadvantage regarding it's trade routes (-20%). I realize that this was done to represent the Islamic prohibition on usury (earning of interest on money), but I feel that there is a better way to do this.

Trade has been central to Islamic civilizations throughout their existence. Not only was it the source of wealth for countless Muslim nations, but it was also one of the largest reasons that the religion itself spread. Here are a few of many possible examples (excerpts in italics; from Wikipedia).

The Mali Empire (Muslim):

The Mali Empire flourished because of trade above all else. (...) Mansa Musa I, ruled over the Mali Empire while it was the source of almost half the Old World's gold exported from mines in Bambuk and Boure.

The Ottoman Empire:

With the Ottomans blockading sea-lanes to the East and South, the European powers were driven to find another way to the ancient Silk and Spice routes, now under absolute Ottoman control.

Islam in Indonesia and Malaysia:

Islam was first brought to northern Sumatra (Indonesia) by Arab traders in the thirteenth century and had become Indonesia's dominant religion by the fifteenth century.

Arab Malays (Melayu Arab) are referred to people with mixed Arab and Malay parentage. The history of Arab-Malay intermarriage goes back to around the fifteenth century with many Arab merchants and traders doing business and settling down in the Malay World after the Malaccan Raja Parameswara converted to Islam and changed his hereditary title to Sultan.

Trans-Saharan Trade

The earliest evidence for domesticated camels in the region dates from the third century. Used by the Berber people, they enabled more regular contact across the entire width of the Sahara, but regular trade routes did not develop until the beginnings of the Islamic conversion of West Africa in the seventh and eighth centuries. Two main trade routes developed. The first ran through the western desert from modern Morocco to the Niger Bend, the second from modern Tunisia to the Lake Chad area.


Proposed Solution

Instead of decreasing the income Islamic civilizations get from trade, I would propose we *increase* it. This would be more in line with history, and of course, more realistic. Rather than an actual increased amount earned from trade routes (such as +10%, +20% or whatever), I think that, cities with Muslim Temples should have +1 trade routes. This represents the impact of Arab/Muslim merchants and traders in these cities.

To symbolize the impact of a lack of usury on Islamic civilizations' economies (and offset other Muslim Temple benefits), you could decrease the gold produced in cities with Islam if it is their State Religion. For example, all cities could have -10% or -20% gold. I suggest we limit gold instead of commerce because a large amount of commerce earnings go toward research, and the Islamic world made numerous advances in all areas of science (ie: mathematics, astronomy, accounting, medicine, etc.).

I also think that the -5% production should be scrapped, and replaced by something else, but this is less important than the trade route part. Increasing the number of Islamic missionaries available at one time from 2 to 3 or 4 would also be more fitting, as Christianity and Islam are known to be the two big missionary religions (though Christianity can still have an advantage with 6 compared to 3/4 and Islamic missionaries would remain more expensive to produce).

Summary and Suggested Profile for Islam (nothing totally set; completely open for discussion):

Muslim Temple
+1 http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/civ4/traderoute2.gif (Trade Routes)
-5% or -10% http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/civ4/gold.gif (Gold, not Commerce, ie: research is unaffected)
Pig -1http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/civ4/yuck.gif, -1 http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/icons/icon8.gif
Pig automatically gives +1 health, and -1 health simply removes that, rather than actually reducing health. Therefore, happiness should also be decreased, as having pig available for consumption would make the religiously devout unhappy.
Wine -2 http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/icons/icon8.gif
Again, since wine automatically gives +1 happiness, happiness should not only be reduced to 0 but reduced by the presence of alcohol, which is clearly prohibited in Islam.

The +1 http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/civ4/health.gif from both Cow and Sheep can be scrapped in order to get rid of the -5% for production. Also, it is more realistic, as refusing to eat pork or drinking alcohol would not suddenly make eating more lamb or beef healthier.

And lastly, as mentioned above, I suggest we increase the number of Islamic Missionaries controllable by a player at any time from 2 to 3 or 4.

Please tell me what you all think about these suggestions (especially my core point about the importance of trade to Islamic civilizations throughout history!)

Thanks for reading over my ideas :goodjob:!

Everyone interested in Religions in TR.
This is not a religion mod, and religions often get people angry couse of inacurate adoption it to TR. The team wants to make minor changes as we see that Islam is disadvantaged.

My idea is to dont make "temple" over influencive.

Muslim Temple:
+1 trade route, or +20% trade route yeld
+10% maintanance, or -10% gold
+1:( from wine
+1 :unhealthiness: from pigs
( +1:) from building is gone)
+1:health: (since Islam requires one to help poor in means available to him, there fore, by giving money, food, health care - not sure how its done in reality, need some help here)

Muslim Monastary:
+5% science (so building will give +15%)
+1:( from wine
+1:( from pigs (not sure here, selling pigs, through food to hearts and spread religion ?)

Islam Cathedral: (?)
+1 :)
+4 :( with emancypation

Mujahids:
Since Jihad is more a persons will to stand and fight, maintanance should be gone from such units imo. This will allow player to have em more.
Mujahids, as light cavalary will have its bonus vs heavy cavalary.

Mujahid discussion in team has not yet started.


Cristianity Changes:

Temple:
+5% :hammers:
+1 :unhealthiness:
Allows Crusader.
-1% gold, or +2% maintanance

Cristian Monastary:
-5% :science: (so building will give +5% science, Europe was disadvantages in early middleages comparing to Islam)

Christian Cathedral: (?)
+5% :science: (before XIII centuary, there were the only places, where man could lear to write and read)

I want to elaborate on those "simple" changes, before release.
I have farer ideas about realigion system, but as i said, this is NOT a religion mod.

Cristian Monastary:
-5% :science: (so building will give +5% science, Europe was disadvantages in early middleages comparing to Islam)

Christian Cathedral: (?)
+5% :science: (before XIII centuary, there were the only places, where man could lear to write and read)
Actually the "centers" of science were the monasteries of certain orders and not the cathedrals. IMO cathedrals should get happiness bonuses as christanity in the middle ages was probabaly one of the most oppressive religion system in history. And considering that cathedrals were the centers of the formal religion that was pretty much against any scientific advance (just think about the "scientists" that got executed or exiled for their views) , it would be strange to give them science bonus.


And have you though about maybe lowering the unhappiness on taoist temples? It cancels out so many luxury resources that if you are a well supplied empire you better not build those.

For taoism, it's intentional. It can help you, it can hurt you. It is even worthy to spread Tao to some of your more well-stocked neighbors to hurt them... Sort of like Cult of Dragon in FfH - only more benefical for the owner of Holy City (money). Your best bet for Taoism is when you're poor; many other religions have their own synergies and antipathies - for example, an island nation with few neighbors will do extremely well with Judaism, while sticking to Judaism in a middle of a continent, surrounded by enemies will spell your doom.

so Manastary losses 5% :science: just need to know how to counter it. (still it gives +5% :science:, so its worth building one)

Ive had a few religious ideas after my latest game. thanks to many great prophets, i was able to found all religions but islam (no one founded it yet) super early, then use inquisitors to wipe out all but the Christian religion as the others had not spread past my neighbour (I burned his 3 religious cities down hehe).
Leaving Christianity the only religious option for the other civs with me holding the Holy city, and we had only just dicovered iron.

Couple suggestions -
1) Perhaps make it so you cant remove a religion from the Holy city, you can stop or slow the spread of the religion but not wipe it out.

2) If not perhaps when the religion has been wiped out fully from every city some other civ who has the correct research should re-discover the religion.

3) Or perhaps only allow each civ to found 1 early religion - Judaism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism and Buddhism. So no matter how many of the techs a civ researches, they can only found one of these, but can research the later religions freely, Islam, Taoism and Christianity.

Good you cant hang onto all the holy cities, but its possible to make sure there is no other holy city :mischief:

Ive had a few religious ideas after my latest game. thanks to many great prophets, i was able to found all religions but islam (no one founded it yet) super early, then use inquisitors to wipe out all but the Christian religion as the others had not spread past my neighbour (I burned his 3 religious cities down hehe).
Leaving Christianity the only religious option for the other civs with me holding the Holy city, and we had only just dicovered iron.

Couple suggestions -
1) Perhaps make it so you cant remove a religion from the Holy city, you can stop or slow the spread of the religion but not wipe it out.

2) If not perhaps when the religion has been wiped out fully from every city some other civ who has the correct research should re-discover the religion.

3) Or perhaps only allow each civ to found 1 early religion - Judaism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism and Buddhism. So no matter how many of the techs a civ researches, they can only found one of these, but can research the later religions freely, Islam, Taoism and Christianity.

Good you cant hang onto all the holy cities, but its possible to make sure there is no other holy city :mischief:

Basically, if you can pull such feats, haven't you already practically won the game? :D

It is interesting, though, if the Holy Cities will respawn in some other civs later - as they should have that tendency. So if you played this game on, it is interesting to know how the Holy Cities behaved later.

Im playing on a Pangaea map as well, so its spreading nice. +45 gold a turn from holy city so far.

I started with hindu holy city and even used a prophet for special building, the holy city jumped to my neighbour when i swapped to Christianity, but i went in and razed that city with my crusaders.


I plan to keep playing this game, ill see what happens.

But dont the holy cities only jump to another city with the religion? i sent out my inquisitors into open border civs to make sure they had no other religion. :lol:

Im playing on a Pangaea map as well, so its spreading nice. +45 gold a turn from holy city so far.

Make sure you use Wall Street nicely... it's a long time usually before you are able to build Wall Street and you have to use this time to spread, spread, spread your religion. Then you have lots of gold income in your Holy City and Wall Street... doubles that! One of my favourite combos :)

When i founded Islam, the holy city jumped straight away, but it had no where to go to.
As i had already removed the other holy cities, they never jumped again. Its been about 150 turns since i wiped them out and nothing.

I reloaded an old game and tried a few things, my neighbour had a holy city jump to him as normal and it seems you cant remove a holy city belonging to another civ with inquisitors (even if they dont follow that religion). So you got to wait for the holy city to jump to nowhere before you can wipe out the religion if that happens.

But yeah Christianity if the only religion that exists in the game, spread to 57 cities so far :lol:
Be fun to try this again with beyond the sword and the Apostolic Palace wonder

When i founded Islam, the holy city jumped straight away, but it had no where to go to.
As i had already removed the other holy cities, they never jumped again. Its been about 150 turns since i wiped them out and nothing.

I reloaded an old game and tried a few things, my neighbour had a holy city jump to him as normal and it seems you cant remove a holy city belonging to another civ with inquisitors (even if they dont follow that religion). So you got to wait for the holy city to jump to nowhere before you can wipe out the religion if that happens.

But yeah Christianity if the only religion that exists in the game, spread to 57 cities so far :lol:
Be fun to try this again with beyond the sword and the Apostolic Palace wonder

Yeah, a very interesting "Theocratic" game you've had. :)

you CAN remove holy city with inquisitor, but there is very small chance do this

you CAN remove holy city with inquisitor, but there is very small chance do this

Oh? after failing with like 10 inquisitors, i went into world builder and spawned 20 more to check if i was wasting my time and they all failed :crazyeye:

But the turn my army arrived ready to declare war and burn the city, the holy city jumped to nowhere and 1 inquisitor was enough.

if inquisitors have 1% success change and you use 30, that does not mean you have 30% chance... Its just 1% for every out of 30.

So its 1% on holy city? or was that just an example number

On normal cities it seems about a 50/50 chance of removal.
Removing my own holy cities took several tries, but wasnt that hard.

But removing enemy Holy city failed every time, maybe i was just unlucky :twitch:

So its 1% on holy city? or was that just an example number

On normal cities it seems about a 50/50 chance of removal.
Removing my own holy cities took several tries, but wasnt that hard.

But removing enemy Holy city failed every time, maybe i was just unlucky :twitch:

example:
Holy city, and only one religion in this city:
base chance is ( 7(max religion) -1(rel in city)) * 80 / 7 = 68%

because holy city of removed religion ... -50% = 18 %

if this is stale religion for targeted player ... -15% = 3%

SO TOTAL CHANCE IS 3% for each mission - so if you spawn 30% it is not 90% chance, but each inq have 3%

and after 30 tries, you had c.a. 59,9% chances to succeed at least once, according to formula:
http://www.frasunek.com/dupa/mad/mad14/Image381.gif

Even if you use 150 inquisitors, you would still have "just" 99% chances

And thats when you load. :D

Hi, guys. I just posted some ideas on Minor Religions (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232638) in the main forum, which might be of interest to the Total Realism mod. Tell me what you think. :)

We already have this thing modelled without actually introducing more religions. All civs can build appropriate pagan temples with different boni, until they adopt one of the major religions.

I would change +10%:science: of free religion to +20%:culture:.
Free religion should rather make cultural profits than educational. That would also make secularism more useful.

I would change +10%:science: of free religion to +20%:culture:.
Free religion should rather make cultural profits than educational. That would also make secularism more useful.
Dont you mean less useful? Culture is usually the last thig you have problems with. At least for me any culture bonus is just a good-to-get, while any research bonus is a have-to-get. (and that +10%:science: is about the only reason to switch to Free religion anyway)

Dont you mean less useful? Culture is usually the last thig you have problems with. At least for me any culture bonus is just a good-to-get, while any research bonus is a have-to-get. (and that +10%:science: is about the only reason to switch to Free religion anyway)

I think you mixed free religion with secularism. With Vertico's proposal you would have a cultural boost while choosing Free Religion or science boost while choosing Secularism. I would also say that Free Religion enhances rather culture than science.

Free Religion is "welcoming" customs and rituals of foreign religions, while Secularism is "whatever" or "atheistic" aproach to religions, therefore it does not care about what the religion ban (like studying decased corses to learn anathomy).

And that's why in my opinion Free Religion is more about culture while Secularism is more about science.

And that's why in my opinion Free Religion is more about culture while Secularism is more about science.

This is exactly what I think. Just look on XVI Poland or some far Asian states. They had freedom of religion what influenced their culture much but did not made them more innovative.

I got two ideas.

1) Some religions are less tolerant of differences than some others

I am not trying to offend anyone, but I cannot imagine Taoists making a holy war.

2) Congeniality between religions

Different religions see other religions differently. Say, Islam treats "People of Books" better than "pagans."

It would be also interesting if religions would be evolving. For example Christianity is clearly a "modernized" version of Judaism (okay, I add IMO so noone will comment about this), likewise Islam is based on various middle-eastern religions. So lets say that upon researching certain tech (dont have to be first), having Judaism as state religion, you could decide to "convert" to Christianity, meaning that all your Jewish cities would change to Christian (or would have, say 70% chance to convert) along with your state religion. Actually this system would make perfect sense in TR since you cannot really have more than one religion (you can, but mostly you will hardly benefit from it) and so newer religions are hardly any useful.

And here comes the sensitive part, certain religions could be declared obsolete by certain eras (to not offend anyone, here you would have to dig up some dead religions). For example Shamanism could be a good early religion, but advancing to renaissance would make it obsolete, either by giving some negative effect by keeping it as state religion, or making its buildings obsolete. Obviously all religions must have an option to convert to a newer one, before they get obsolete.
I would also like to state that I did not say the Judaism is an obsolete religion (at least any more than all the others), actually in Judaism-Christianity conversion, since Judaism wouldnt go obsolete, you dont have to convert.

It would be also interesting if religions would be evolving. For example Christianity is clearly a "modernized" version of Judaism (okay, I add IMO so noone will comment about this), likewise Islam is based on various middle-eastern religions. So lets say that upon researching certain tech (dont have to be first), having Judaism as state religion, you could decide to "convert" to Christianity, meaning that all your Jewish cities would change to Christian (or would have, say 70% chance to convert) along with your state religion. Actually this system would make perfect sense in TR since you cannot really have more than one religion (you can, but mostly you will hardly benefit from it) and so newer religions are hardly any useful.

And here comes the sensitive part, certain religions could be declared obsolete by certain eras (to not offend anyone, here you would have to dig up some dead religions). For example Shamanism could be a good early religion, but advancing to renaissance would make it obsolete, either by giving some negative effect by keeping it as state religion, or making its buildings obsolete. Obviously all religions must have an option to convert to a newer one, before they get obsolete.
I would also like to state that I did not say the Judaism is an obsolete religion (at least any more than all the others), actually in Judaism-Christianity conversion, since Judaism wouldnt go obsolete, you dont have to convert.

A very well thought out post....hopefully there is a way to implement this concept.

Interesting. But not "convert", but spread.
When Poland converted to Christianity, it was nearelly instantly spread to all cities, but poganism remained. So in civ it would be like each city will have poganism and Christianity religion.

In Jewish, converting to Christianity, it would look like, some cities will have both Judaism and Christianity.
How high chance of spreading "new" religion will depend on "favorite" religion and "spiritial" traits.

I just figured I would ask. Has anyone thought about adding a second religion layer to represent folk beliefs or pagan religions? I have had an idea in my head for a while to let the player possibly have two state religions at once. Like for example Celtic and Catholic. The idea was that the original folk belief still exist simultaneously with another religion. Other examples voodoo or Chinese folk religion. Or even things like Sufism with Sunni faiths.

This as well could help show the transition from the old supposed pagan religion to present day organized religions. Like Rome to Christianity.

Just wondering if you guys has anything like it in mind. And I really like what you have done.

We're trying our best to represent folk beliefs with pagan temples, but, frankly, I don't know any significant examples of early pagan religions decisively influencing organized later religions, except for defining a "cultural background". All the basic tenets of Christianity are the same in Ireland and Italy (which is not the case between Italy and Netherlands, for example - but due to different reasons which we are going to implement sooner or later). So, all the influence pagan religions exert (via temples) will end upon adopting a modern religion. Still, in the upcoming version, pagan temples are going to be more useful.

A good idea anyway.:goodjob:

Well you guys are doing pretty good with adding more for pagan religions. Just want to let you know that first.

I am trying to make a new layer anyway for my own mod. I want other things as well like denominations for each religion, religion decay, and schisms for an example.

I do think there is differences though with the culture background still. And I think there is still significant folk beliefs now. China is first one that comes in my mind, but African diaspora religions is another I can think of. Celtic traditions were important for St Patrick. So it is not only the present I am thinking about.

Just asking though so I do not reinvent the wheel. Your mod is great though. I plan on using a lot your work if I ever make my mod. Of course I will say the stuff came from your mod that I use. Do you mind?

This is a topic/concept that has come up in many of the conversations amongst the moderators concerning this concept. As an American of mixed African and Native American ancestry I understand what you are talking about concerning the continuing pagan influences (often we are not aware of them) still present amongst the orthodox forms of Christianity (the Yoruba based religions)and I believe Islam (as you point out the influence of Sufism). Amongst the African diaspora you have the continuing presence of Voodoo, Candomble, Santeria and other forms of the Yoruba religion that has been subsumed into the over arching Catholic belief structure. For example Saint Barbara is often used as a stand in for the so-called Yoruba god of war, thunder, lightning and father/leader of the other so-called deities in the pantheon. This was done to guard against the loss of their cultural and to prevent the people who enslaved them (the Spanish, French, Portuguese, Dutch and to a lesser extent the English) from finding out that they still practiced traditional beliefs. That being said I don't know of a way to express this in the game. Thanks for your thoughts in this matter and continue to post on this topic; as together we may come to a solution. :)

Shitno religion is considered as peganism in TR. In modern Japan its still as strong as Buddism. Another thing is that in World Wars peroid Shintoism was state religion of Japan and a tool of politicians to create a Nationalistic Japanese Empire.

Shitno religion is considered as peganism in TR. In modern Japan its still as strong as Buddism. Another thing is that in World Wars peroid Shintoism was state religion of Japan and a tool of politicians to create a Nationalistic Japanese Empire.

That is why I am thinking two at the same time. Japan has had both since Buddhism came. The most important thing I thought can the religion exist with another. If it can then it is part of a second religion layer. If not then it stays in the first layer. Anyway that is why I was thinking a second layer. But this is not a thread just about what I am thinking. Thanks again.

Maybe a second layer for each religion, after all it would allow you to better represent the divisions of the world's major religions, such as Catholics and Protestants or Sunni and Shiites.

Maybe a second layer for each religion, after all it would allow you to better represent the divisions of the world's major religions, such as Catholics and Protestants or Sunni and Shiites.

One day, we'll implement it. Already given much thought and discussion to this topic.

My 3 cents:
It's pretty idiotic that religions' foundings coincide exactly with discovery of technology. Perhaps they could change the message to something like: "Our proper understanding of (tech) has caused (religion) to flourish within our borders!" It would be a pure aesthetic change, but it would be a tad more realistic. Also, regarding schisms within religions, perhaps there could a set of traits representing the various prominent theological debates within a religion. It would work like the civics system, so for Christianity one of the choices could be between infant baptism and believers' baptism. Like civics, the closer you were to a fellow civ's set of options, the more they would like you. Great Prophets might randomly discover new options in addition to doing whatever it is you want them to do. The only problem is the lack of incentive to change, but you could probably think of something! Finally, you could replace shrines with relics. They would work the same way, except you would have to have some sort of "cathedral" to enshrine the relics in the city of your choice, and crusaders would have the ability steal relics and take them to another city with a cathedral. This could make for some really fun capture the flag gameplay until crusaders go obsolete. I hope you will consider these ideas and, until then, I look forward to being the rightful owner of the Crown of Thorns in my next game of Civ!

Well don't all respond at once...

Religion founding is all right in my book as it is. As written above, we might implement founding schizmatic religions via GPs. The idea of relics is a very interesting one, but it would require quite a lot of SDK work. We might implement it sometime.