Please discuss your ideas about Other type of Units such as Missionaries, Informant, Spy, etc

Houman, are informants supposed to be able to explore goody huts, I mean regardless of hostile barbarian occupation?

This is indeed a flaw. Just a question, can Spies actualy explore good huts? In that case I could copy their behaviour into the Informants.

Otherwise which unit cannot explore goody huts?

I've never played that far into the game, more into the older era however, I'll try to find out.

In an earlier thread I had proposed an idea, one of which Mexico suggested was an intuitive and doable thought...

I thought I would just touch on it briefly again so others could comment on and improvise...

Anyway, basically beyond allowing the scouts to build forts or whatnot with the appropiate promotions. I also recommend allowing scouts to claim sects of land that would act like a precursor to a future settlement with the same properties of border boundries etc..

I suggested a host of other supporting ideas but I'm sure people will get the point.

I know in several of my games I'd locate an optimal area (good resources, extention of supply or even tactically sound location) for settlement and would divert all of my attention to settleing the said sect of land just to discover some nobody or even an ally would settle it or nearby it making it impossible for me to take advantage of its positon alas inducing war or at the very least annoying me...

Has anyone had similiar experiences? Don't you wish you could somehow officially prevent others from settleing on your proposeed lands before you have the oppurtunity. Of course war is still an option....

Agreed, MindProphetX. When I discover a choice parcel of land, it's a foot race and my settler can't seem to get there fast enough.

Perhaps something along the lines of a toggle button - 'Claim land mode' where the scout becomes immobile but projects a culture barrier similiar to the second culture level of a city.

I would think the scout would need to stay in the newly discovered land - a claim upon new ground won't last long if noone is there to defend said claim.

There should not be a need for the scout to stay there to claim the land, because he would plant a flag there.

There would have to be certain restrictions though, like you could only claim land within a certain radius of one of your cities. Say 10-12 spaces.

If an AI builds upon your claimed land, it would be considered just provocation for war. Likewise if you build on AI claimed land there would be a -2 diplomatic penalty. Maybe more.

And maybe you should need to renew your claim every 20 turns or so, by having one of your units pass through the claimed area.

WarKirby

I can see the logic (and to a lesser degree historical precedent) in this suggestion, but as it stands this change would allow a lot of exploitation.

Maybe only allow on 'reserved plot' at any one time, by creating a sort of pioneer unit?

Ah. I thought of a solution. Have an upkeep cost for claimed land, dependant on how far it is from your nearest city.

within 4 spaces. 1 gold per turn
4-6 2 gold per turn
6-8 4 gold per turn
8-10 8 gold per turn

What do you think?

I think that a 'pioneer' function or unit is exactly what Civ has needed since the introduction of resources in Civ 3. It was infuriating to find a prim peicce of real estate, post a unit to watch over the area, and have a rival civ beat you to it. Unfortunately for them, this means war :)

WarKirby, I think you're on the right track with a monetary penalty. A per turn would work alot better than a lump sum. It would be an interesting thing to play around with and see what works. Maybe there should also be a requirement for you to have a military unit in the 'claimed' area. Just plopping a flag down on a hill somewhere does little to deter greedy neighbors. You could allow opposing civs in the area, but the one with the highest amount of military presence controls it.

I can see the logic (and to a lesser degree historical precedent) in this suggestion, but as it stands this change would allow a lot of exploitation.

Maybe only allow on 'reserved plot' at any one time, by creating a sort of pioneer unit?

I agree there would be the obvioous oppurtunity to exploit this improvement but, as I must note so is there with even the core facets of the game. The real major problem would be getting the AI to use them eventhough, that wouldn't mean much once the MP is up and running. The one major flaw I see is ( in a sense of exploitation ) you could prevent neighboring civs from expanding beyond their preliminary city with a well placed "Claim of land", of course I believe if that were the case then a war would be brewing...

Why not simple have the ability to build Forts outside your borders (can't remember if that's possible now), and also have them project a cultural border around them to:

1- claim that piece of land as your own, since the cultural border will not allow other CIVs to settle there without declaring war;
2- allow you to station a military unit to protect your claim.

Of course, if the fort is destroyed the cultural border should disappear.
You could have an upkeep for the fort, say 1 gold per turn per fort, that would end when you build a city over it.

The one major flaw I see is ( in a sense of exploitation ) you could prevent neighboring civs from expanding beyond their preliminary city with a well placed "Claim of land", of course I believe if that were the case then a war would be brewing...
With my upkeep idea this would not be a problem. If you send a scout to claim an area that is far from you, just to contain your neighbors, then you will be crippled by the upkeep from having it so far away.

If the area is close to you, then it's fair game anyway.

I have another facet to add to this. If possible, could the AI take into account whether you could feasibly do anything if they stole your land?

Like, if they are more powerful, they would ignore your claim and basically challenge you to do something about it. This way, claiming would only work if you have kind and respectful neighbors, or the military force to back up your claim.

What do you think?

WarKirby

Could we change the skin of the informant to that of the great merchant in the ancient world to renaissance? It looks a lot better, looks more like a traveller. He has a camel, we must use him. Every spy needs a camel.

Could we change the skin of the informant to that of the great merchant in the ancient world to renaissance? It looks a lot better, looks more like a traveller. He has a camel, we must use him. Every spy needs a camel.

Right, a camel is always usefull...as a wheelbarrow .;)

The Frog

Two extra units would be good additions in the future. The mafia unit out of the bad people mod, to damage an enemy from a distance and outside of war. And a smuggler unit. The drug dealer unit was contested in the past, but if we view it as a smuggler unit that introduces 'Vice or addiction' (-2 production for ten turns) that would be superb. Code it in so the computer send out a few of these once defence demands are met.

Too many of these implications can cause some serious issues on regards to the AI and balance and just because something is historically sound doesn't give enough reason to implement IMO anyway... defensively towns historically used moats during wartime as sewage septics to deter invaders from crossing them (just a thought to counterbalance the how the defenders too can or historically should be able to inflict health damage on the attackers then...when its comes down to it after the smoke clears this probably will be a whole other game with all the inuitive and creative suggestions people keep making it will soon take up more space than the game itself)... this game requires imagination and ellaboration... a basic said element is supposed to constitute and represent the idealology of an element... if we were to map every facet of the game historically it wouldn't be playable... theres got to be a compromise with realism, what historically occured (think rewriting history, most of thiese historically cited ideas have no grounds if history is being rewritte, mostly the more detailed and lavish thoughts anyway) and of course balance fun factor etc... this game isn't meant to educate you in being a real emperor or general etc...

Sorry, not taking a shot at you... nonetheless a good idea just seems a bit lavish besides there are more precedented task at hand but, than again I'm not doing the programming

Have you considered adding a 'colonist' unit, or really just an updated settler with a larger starting population. Maybe at the same time as when you can train an explorer?
Even cooler would be an 'all-in-one' unit, where you train a 'colonist' and when its done, you get a stack with a settler, military unit, worker, and missionary.

Thats a great idea. Not sure about the added military unit though. Enabled by later tech or something. But a new settler unit that adds a worker and missionary (of state religion) when the city is founded sounds like a nice idea.

I don't see a section for the Spies so I guess it goes here. Is there a way to automate the spies that are created using the national wonder or with Scotland Yard? The thing that troubles me is I like to have a spy roaming around in other Civ's plus have some in my Civ to scout for enemy spies. Late in the game I get so much going on I hate to waste time moving my spy around my Civ looking for enemy spies. If we could automate them to look for spies it would free up some time. Just a thougt.

I suggested the same thing for the informant.

In the meantime, try positioning spies on hilltops and near cities in enemy territory, and putting them to sleep. That gives you eyes behind enemy lines without having to move it constantly

But it also gives u "thiefs" in your tresury...

Thats a good idea warkirby. Ill have to try that. Assassins watching every city of my enemy from a nearby hill. lol. No, in the forests. "They're in the trees" lol.

Charlie ... in the trees!

<Predator>
*whispered* Over there...
</Predator>

I use hills because you get +1 view distance from a hilltop, so they are more effetive there

But it also makes enemy turn last longer as you watch enemy/friendly unit movement. If you dont watch their movement, it makes ur assassing less worthy.

Some things about settlers have been bugging me for awhile. Firstly, why do they get 2 movement?

They would traditionally have big, heavy wagons with lots of stuff in them, and their horses were generally about strength rather than speed. Also, they lacked the discipline of military units.

Another point. Why are they defenseless? Settlers were tough people, and coined the phrase 'circling the wagons' as they could use their wagons as makeshift defensive structures. Obviously, they would be no match for an armed and organised military force, but I see no reason why a stray lion or bear should be able to destroy them.


I propose some minor reforms to settlers.

1. Reduce their movement speed to 1.
2. Give them 1 strength. a bonus against wild animals, and the ability to only defend. Exactly the same as scouts.

Some things about settlers have been bugging me for awhile. Firstly, why do they get 2 movement?

They would traditionally have big, heavy wagons with lots of stuff in them, and their horses were generally about strength rather than speed. Also, they lacked the discipline of military units.

Another point. Why are they defenseless? Settlers were tough people, and coined the phrase 'circling the wagons' as they could use their wagons as makeshift defensive structures. Obviously, they would be no match for an armed and organised military force, but I see no reason why a stray lion or bear should be able to destroy them.


I propose some minor reforms to settlers.

1. Reduce their movement speed to 1.
2. Give them 1 strength. a bonus against wild animals, and the ability to only defend. Exactly the same as scouts.

First off I totally agree with the second part of your post, on regards to defense against wild animals with a strength of 1, however, I don't agree with the speed.
Who said these settlers actually have to use wagons, I mean we are talking about the dawn of "modern" man, right? My point is that there is no rule for settlers using wagons to settle especially if they haven't invented the wheel yet, duh, the settlers look the way they do for aesthetic purposes. I get the point your trying to make though.

Regardless. Wagons or no. Settlers carry lots of stuff. Settlers include women and children. Settlers are not disciplined like soldiers and likely would not have the stamina to march all day. They may also have livestock.

I really think they should be slowed down.

WarKirby

Maybe give settlers 1 movement +1 on roads.. ?

WarKirby is right in both points.

Settlers must be tough. They walk long distances over the years to find a good place and build up a city. They cannot afford them selves to be killed by wild animals. Also Settlers are numberous. Making them all to move at same speed, also watching children not to wonder away, having ready for barbarians/wild animal attacks must have impact on their speed, resulting in its loss (-1). How ever expansionist civ setlers will have 2 speed becouse of trait bonus.

Also they carried Lots of stuff. They had tools, wood, stone, food and water. Depending on where will they build, if on woodless terrain or desert whith only some oasis as source of water. It all have its weight.

Its funny how you dont realise how ridiculous something is until its pointed out. Has a pack of lions ever killed hundreds of people up to a thousand as they passed through its territory? Might kill a few stragglers but the settlers arent going to be wiped out by a lion pack or a wolf pack. A wolf pack seems even more ridiculous. A family or a few might be lost to the beasts but not a migratory community.

And also another unit might be a good idea. Villagers. Appearance of settlers, but when they settle down they form a hamlet. Just a simple hamlet, but it has a single square of culture. Im thinking small patches that dont spread in culture. Use them to take key places until it comes under the area of a city. Make them very cheap though, because they have no benefit other than expanding your borders by one square. 10 hammers. No maintenance. I think someone mentioned this before so im expanding on that idea. Allows borders to slightly expand as you set small communities out. Vulnerable to going over to any civilisation that comes near them though. And makes more sense to use these to build the first hamlets in cities radius rather than workers. When being built no impact on cities growth, its just a few families.

@ Los Tirano

WarKirby asked Houman about putting new units. Well its impossible, or atleast too hard. So if you want a villager unit, you must point a unit it should replace. Tought life.

No. You can't create new unique units. This could be made because it would be available to all civs. Like they did with the hypaspist. That was totally new

However, I don't lke the idea of a villager unit. I think scouts/explorers should be able to claim territory.

WarKirby

Ah but if there is a villager unit then you can claim territory. How could a scout claim territory? Put up a flag? You need to have small communities at least to lay any claim to territory, and a few scouts (probably all male) wandering around cant really found and continue a community now can they?

The villager unit is a possibility because we would want all nations able to build it. It would use their ethnic settler skins of course.

Another problem Los Tirano

This will require a new AI. Or Ai will spam the world whith villagers... 0.2 fps and year break betwean turns

what about adding some of these graphics for some units.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4615172#post4615172

heavily team colored units.

Hell no. Looks silly. A cannon with purple sash tied around the barrel? Preposterous.

I vote against.

Hell no. Looks silly. A cannon with purple sash tied around the barrel? Preposterous.

I vote against.

I was referring to the rifleman;) :lol: :lol: i mean some of them are okay, canons and artillery no chance.

You dont have to use all those units, just a couple. I personally like the riflemen for some civs, not necceassrily all of them.:)

Well Spartan, the heavily team coloured settler looks good to me. not sure about the others. Dont think the absence of team colour is such a big thing. Each unit has a flag to identify who it belongs to.

I agree with Los Tirano (except about the settler)

I've never had a problem with identifying units by flag. I think that this whole concept is a bad idea.

WarKirby

I dont think there is a problem with idetifying them. I agree it is easy to identify them however it wasnt about "easy idetification".

i just think that riflemen did sort of wore that was similiar to their flag. I dont think of too much of any other one, i just like the riflemen one. Say as a replacement for other any other civ that doesnt have already have a UU for riflemen. It would not apply for everyone, infantry would not work as by that time uniforms were designed accordingly to terrain as to camoflage the soldier.

What about a Pizzaboy. A modern assassin :) Just rig a bell, give pizza to governor and KABOOM :lol:

How about fixing the current asassin first?

How about fixing the current asassin first?
on plan, i have some idea (recode in SDK, using missions system like spy), but need to design AI functionality
basic prereq for this: make a day which will have 36 hours :) (or :()

Be sure to take a good look through the assassin thread. I posted my (brilliant) ideas on the first page of it.

WarKirby

Be sure to take a good look through the assassin thread. I posted my (brilliant) ideas on the first page of it.

WarKirby
;)
most of them as taken as base for new design...when i finish this new design, i will put this onto assassin thread for disscuss

Thank you.

WarKirby

Could someone give me some ideas as to how to use the demolition unit?

Put him in your capitol and click raze city in his action buttons :lol: Same thing in other cities. Never managed to lead him to enemy city.

That's what I kinda figured. Ouch!

I use them mostly to destroy not needed buildings, like Taoist temple when i got lots of materian resources for witch i get no bonus whith temple, raze inquizitions, drydock if i need health and dont need navy.