Please discuss your ideas about Air Units.

something like this should be added. a promotion system for air units..

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=184530

made by thelopez also.

That looks pretty good, although some of the promotions reduce strength to grant extra range. That doesn't seem fair.

WarKirby

That looks pretty good, although some of the promotions reduce strength to grant extra range. That doesn't seem fair.

WarKirby


That's true to aircraft though. In WW2, escort aircraft were designed significantly different than interceptors or regular fighters. They stripped out anything extra to add fuel capacity... long range escorts were clunky, maneuvered poorly and weren't well equipped... but they got the job done because they could reach where no other aircraft could go.

That looks pretty good, although some of the promotions reduce strength to grant extra range. That doesn't seem fair.

WarKirby

i never said i agreed with the promotions:D

i was just saying this should be implemented somehow in the warlords version. then the particular promotions can be decided later.:goodjob:

waht about the paratroopers ?

i reallllllllly liked them in civ 3

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=186976

new buttons for air units, it looks really good

waht about the paratroopers ?

i reallllllllly liked them in civ 3
Yeah I really miss being able to drop a lightly armed force behind enemy lines to plunder and pillage....wait a minute is that an Armored Division heading our way...quick everybody throw your hands up in the air and surrender. :p

Could you please give Russians Tu-160 instead of Stealth bomber?
(Smaller chance to evade interception but greater damage)

Here is the thread with the model:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=186405

Yet more buttons that possibly be added. 49 new buttons. Some such possibly be added for Realism mod:please:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4581623#post4581623

The vanilla system doesn't take the attacker's intercept chance into account for trying to push an air fight to happen.

When an air fight does happen in vanilla, the defender is about 5 times more likely to win than the attacker is. (For jet vs jet, in vanilla the defender wins approximately 70% of the time and the attacker wins exactly 14% of the time.) In MY mod, if there's a biplane defending (50%) and you send a modern fighter in (90%), your fighter uses its intercept to successfully pick a fight 90% of the time (and it will usually win too). This clears out a pesky defender that still had a 50% chance of damaging or killing any non-stealthy bombers you wanted to send in (for example I have a unit called the heavy bomber, uses Snafu's B52, much stronger than the B2 but has no stealth). The changes basically enable an "air superiority pseudo-mission mechanic" that allows you to offensively clear defending fighters if you want, by going in with fighters under the pretense of bombing/striking. This wasn't practical in vanilla unless you had 5 times more planes than your opponent. I would've preferred to create a whole new air mission for it (Civ3 had a seperate air superiority mission), but that would require changing the AI code to actually use it (which I don't know how to do yet). This system, with fighters given Attack_AIs in XML, has a solid chance of fooling the AI into using the new mechanic accidentally but effectively, without changing the AI code.

Finally, the lethality (chance an intercept will be fatal to the aircraft being intercepted), was strictly based on the intercept chance of the intercepting unit in vanilla. It was literally converting a jet fighter's 70% into something like: "roll a random between 0 and (4 * 70) = 280, that's the percent damage, if it's over 100 it's fatal". I've seperated the lethality random bound out so it can be set seperately. This allows you to, for example, set up a battleship to have a very low intercept chance via its big guns (say 5% or 10%), but for it to be highly fatal if it hits. (In vanilla, low intercept chance means low damage dealt.)

At the *moment* it uses a bunch of if-else statements in the C code to map specific intercepts (and thus specific units) to specific lethalities, but it's probably better to make a new XML tag for this (for a couple reasons). I'll do so when I have time.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=175766


This is interesting. I think this should be included so that air units can actually pick fights, Bi-planes will no longer be quite so successful against modern air units.

Maybe you guys Mexico and Houman could incorporate this into the mod?:please:

Brilliant idea. Agreed wholeheartedly.

Air combat in vanilla civ was badly broken methinks.

WarKirby

What is the matter with vanilla; don't you get that real special feeling in your heart when a bi-plane takes out your stealth bomber? :rolleyes: LOL!

Had a couple of comments/questions about these units...


1. Chinook - Why can't Commando's or Great Leaders get on board? Is this by design? I was kind of hoping Great Leaders could ride in Helicopters and Armored Cars, seems like that is where they spend most of their time in real life anyways.. Not a big deal, just was curious if this was intended.

2. Strike Fighter - This was one that really bugged me. Strike Fighter comes after you can build Zeppelins, Biplanes, Regular Fighters and Bombers. But as an upgrade, you can upgrade Zeppelins to Strike fighters, or Bombers to Strike Fighters, but not regular Fighters or Biplanes.

This is a problem, as once the Strike Fighters is available, the Bomber is unavailable. And this is a problem, because for 4 extra HP, I lose the ability to Bomb multiple units with my Bomber, as the Strike Fighter only hits 1 unit at a time. Finally I caught on that it wasn't worth "upgrading" my Bombers, as they were much more effective than the Strike Fighter, I only wish I still had the ability to make them, as I had to wait for Composities to get the Stealth to get new Bombers.

Also, the Strike Fighter has no "Intercept" button, I don't know if it intercepts automatically, but if it can't bomb multiple units, and it only has a few more HP and can't intercept, it's not really worth building or upgrading to.



Also as a side note on Chinooks, they are so good, with the ability to carry 8 units, and the Heavier Chinooks carrying Tanks, that a force of 2-3 Reg. Chinooks and 3-5 Heavy Chinooks is a devestating combo that can take out pretty much any city in a pretty wide area in just a couple of turns. Possibly, the range on the Choppers should be reduced slightly to make them a little less powerful in this regard?


Anyways, as I said before, great job with everything, just my notes as I went along...

More thoughts will be coming about Techs,Diplomacy and Religion...

First. Not being able to carry commandos/marines/great people. I think this is a bug. I really hope so.

I've never reached the modern era, so can't comment on the strike fighter.

Carrying 8 ground units seems a bit ridiculous. A unit represents a whole squad of soldiers, no? Maybe it should be limited to a cargo of 2, rather than slowing down.

2. Strike Fighter - This was one that really bugged me. Strike Fighter comes after you can build Zeppelins, Biplanes, Regular Fighters and Bombers. But as an upgrade, you can upgrade Zeppelins to Strike fighters, or Bombers to Strike Fighters, but not regular Fighters or Biplanes.

This is a problem, as once the Strike Fighters is available, the Bomber is unavailable. And this is a problem, because for 4 extra HP, I lose the ability to Bomb multiple units with my Bomber, as the Strike Fighter only hits 1 unit at a time. Finally I caught on that it wasn't worth "upgrading" my Bombers, as they were much more effective than the Strike Fighter, I only wish I still had the ability to make them, as I had to wait for Composities to get the Stealth to get new Bombers.

Also, the Strike Fighter has no "Intercept" button, I don't know if it intercepts automatically, but if it can't bomb multiple units, and it only has a few more HP and can't intercept, it's not really worth building or upgrading to.



(All info is based on TR beta2 for warlords)
so what about this:
bombers can upgrade to Stirke Fighters AND/OR Stealth bombers, so player can build bombers until both types is avaliable - similar like archer go to longarchers and/or crosbowmans
(or maybe with jet fighter there will be new jet bomber -> this unit can upgrade in future)
also strike figters will gain ability to make 2 missions per turn

and another question:
i want add some new unique (ethnicaly diverse) units to game

here is list of affected units (some of them is already implemented, here is just for info) - i want know your opinion about new units (bold font)

Fighter:
Bf109 (German) - already implemented
Zero (japan) - already implemented
P51 (american) - implemented in next WL beta
Mig-3 (russia) - only this model is avaliable
hawker hurricane (england) - because spitfire is used as default fighter

Bomber:
He111 (German) - i know that there is also Ju-87 model, but HE have better quality, animation etc..
IL-2 (Russia)

Jet Fighter:
F-15 (american) - already implemented
Mirrage 2000 (France) - already implemented
MIG-21 (Russia/China) - ??? - see note below

Strike Fighter:
F/A-18 (american)
Su-37 (russia) - ??? - see note below
Harrier (england)

Stealth Bomber:
TU-160 (russia)

Note:
because there is too much avaliable russians models, i picked these, which in my opinion is typical unit for selected role - but if you have good arguments for other types....
here is list of avalaible models:
Mig-21
Mig-23
Mig-25
Mig-29
Su-25
Su-27
Su-33
Su-35
Su-37
Su-47

Another note: if there will be net Jet Bomber type, i think that this will be represented not as typical bomber (like B-52), but closer to strike fighter - i thought about A-10/Su-25 models for this role - what you think?

Mexico,

Don't forget to add this (very good) jet fighter. Only Sweden (so Viking in TR warlords) use these aircraft.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=187010

About Russia, their most powerful jet fighter are Mig-29 or Su-27. Mig-21 were mainly sold to their former allies (East Germany, Poland, Cuba, Vietnam, etc). Meanwhile, the most build aircraft of Communist Russia was the Mig-23, a poor copy of the US F-14.

About Japan. Today, Japan is one of the four only countries of the world that use F-15 A as main Interceptor/Jet Fighter. Why not giving Japan a (lowest?) version of the F-15 ? Remember that USA use F-15 E, if i'm right.

About Mig-21. This plane was/is sold to most of the minor countries of the world. Such as Yemen, countries of Central America, many African countries,etc. Why not giving Mig-21 to civs as Zulu, Inca, Aztec ?

About Mig-29. This plane was sold to India before the Fall of USSR and then to China after the Fall of USSR. Meanwhile, China still don't have many. On the other hand, India main Interceptor Force use mainly this very good Jet fighter. Adding it to India could be good IMO.

Note that many Arabian countries and Muslims countries closed to the Arabian "world" are using Aircrafts from USA (Saudia Arabia, Koweit, Egypt, Barhein, Pakistan for examples) France (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Oman, Irak for examples) , Great Britain (Oman, Saudia Arabia for examples) and Russia (Syria, Egypt, Somalia, Yemen, Irak). (in order) I give the best version of some aircraft sold to these countries: F-16, Mirage-2000, Mig-23, Tornado.

The Frog.

Mexico,

Don't forget to add this (very good) jet fighter. Only Sweden (so Viking in TR warlords) use these aircraft.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=187010

About Russia, their most powerful jet fighter are Mig-29 or Su-27. Mig-21 were mainly sold to their former allies (East Germany, Poland, Cuba, Vietnam, etc). Meanwhile, the most build aircraft of Communist Russia was the Mig-23, a poor copy of the US F-14.

About Japan. Today, Japan is one of the four only countries of the world that use F-15 A as main Interceptor/Jet Fighter. Why not giving Japan a (lowest?) version of the F-15 ? Remember that USA use F-15 E, if i'm right.

About Mig-21. This plane was/is sold to most of the minor countries of the world. Such as Yemen, countries of Central America, many African countries,etc. Why not giving Mig-21 to civs as Zulu, Inca, Aztec ?

About Mig-29. This plane was sold to India before the Fall of USSR and then to China after the Fall of USSR. Meanwhile, China still don't have many. On the other hand, India main Interceptor Force use mainly this very good Jet fighter. Adding it to India could be good IMO.

Note that many Arabian countries and Muslims countries closed to the Arabian "world" are using Aircrafts from USA (Saudia Arabia, Koweit, Egypt, Barhein, Pakistan for examples) France (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Oman, Irak for examples) , Great Britain (Oman, Saudia Arabia for examples) and Russia (Syria, Egypt, Somalia, Yemen, Irak). (in order) I give the best version of some aircraft sold to these countries: F-16, Mirage-2000, Mig-23, Tornado.

The Frog.
Good Points Froggie. I would prefer one of the latest Sukhois - Su-27 for the Russians. I like the Heraldic Shield icon underneath your tag. :cool: Is that from your former tank regiment/brigade? :) Good work Mexico!

i dont care, i never actually make it to the modern world :lol:
Eighther it was CTD or turns 20 min each. :lol:

I say that making the mod runs faster should be priority,a s differance betwean Warlords and WTR is like 3 or 4 times. Know this IS hard to do.

PS: Im in terrific mood after Gran Derby !!!

I don't mind the speed. I'm a very patient person. I use the time to think.

Btw, what's the Grand Derby?

WarKirby

I think the Russians should have MiG-29 as a jet fighter because MiG-21 has long ago become out of date.
As for the strike fighter I accept your choise though Su-37 combines interceptor and strike fighter and is often called a multirole fighter.
As For the jet bomber Su-25 is a nice choise.

I think the Russians should have MiG-29 as a jet fighter because MiG-21 has long ago become out of date.
As for the strike fighter I accept your choise though Su-37 combines interceptor and strike fighter and is often called a multirole fighter.
As For the jet bomber Su-25 is a nice choise.
Yeah, good choice about the air superiority role for the MiG-29. Forgot all about it, to tell you the truth. Let me ask you a question is it capable of doing that "cobra" manuever that the pilots are able to do with the Sukhois? :crazyeye:

Yeah, good choice about the air superiority role for the MiG-29. Forgot all about it, to tell you the truth. Let me ask you a question is it capable of doing that "cobra" manuever that the pilots are able to do with the Sukhois? :crazyeye:

Hi Ankenaton,

Yes he can. I've seen it in France on an aerial show with planes from Russia, Germany USA and France. Impressive !

The Frog.

No Iraq's MiG-29 where shut down during the Desert Storm and they shoot down some plains including one British Tornado.
And nowadays upgraded MiG 29 is the best 4th generation fighter in fact it is something like 4.5 generation...

In soviet and in russian army both MiGs and Su are used but Su's are more expencieve and it is heavy interceptor MiGs are cheaper lighter and it is a front fighter. Both planes can attack land targets.
There are still discustions which of the planes can do better in close combat...

No Iraq's MiG-29 where shut down during the Desert Storm and they shoot down some plains including one British Tornado.
And nowadays upgraded MiG 29 is the best 4th generation fighter in fact it is something like 4.5 generation...

In soviet and in russian army both MiGs and Su are used but Su's are more expencieve and it is heavy interceptor MiGs are cheaper lighter and it is a front fighter. Both planes can attack land targets.
There are still discustions which of the planes can do better in close combat...

Hi man,

Mmm, it's not THE best plane. It's ONE of the best planes in the world, sure. Don't forget that even the best plane piloted by a poor guy worth nothing. Some other planes are also very very good (F-15, Rafale, Su-27,...for examples) but theirs pilots are the main factor of success (or not).
Nevertheless, choosing Mig-29 or Su-27 for Russia is a very small problem :p . I like these two very well built, powerful and beautiful jet fighters ! :goodjob:

The Frog.

Hi man,

Mmm, it's not THE best plane. It's ONE of the best planes in the world, sure. Don't forget that even the best plane piloted by a poor guy worth nothing. Some other planes are also very very good (F-15, Rafale, Su-27,...for examples) but theirs pilots are the main factor of success (or not).
Nevertheless, choosing Mig-29 or Su-27 for Russia is a very small problem . I like these two very well built, powerful and beautiful jet fighters !

The Frog.

Totally agree:)
The best fighters now are F/A-22 Raptor and F-35 but they are really expencive... I hope that russian MiG, Su and I will also produce something sweet.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=175766


This is interesting. I think this should be included so that air units can actually pick fights, Bi-planes will no longer be quite so successful against modern air units.

Maybe you guys Mexico and Houman could incorporate this into the mod?:please:

Done ! (also with others ideas from this link) ;)

Done ! (also with others ideas from this link) ;)

Great!

Any insight on the other ideas that might or will be included?:D

I hope an offensive "clear the skies" option becomes available. I think Strike Fighters have been nerfed too much. I finally got to the modern age in a game. There was a massive world war. I had 5 nuclear carriers attack fleets and targets in my enemies land. Each carrier had 5 F-18's. That's 25 planes. Results: 23 of 25 were intercepted by enemy jets, 1 of the 25 was intercepted by an enemy destroyer. Only one plane got through. Of the 24 that were intercepted 19 were shot down. This is a little too weak. Your better off using regular fighters. What's the point of the extra damage if 99% of your planes are shot down in the attack?

Done ! (also with others ideas from this link) ;)

Hey Mexico, was this included for Beta4?

Hey Mexico, was this included for Beta4?

mongoose air lethality component and update to air combat was included in beta3 already

mongoose air lethality component and update to air combat was included in beta3 already

Cheers... :)

*Goes to find changelog*

big fan of total realism. I would like to see a jet bomber be available as an alternate upgrade from the bomber as well.

the one problem i have is that with the current version (i dont have warlords) the rebase mission for all planes seems to have a maximum range. while i can see the thinking behind this, as entire air forces shouldnt be able to jump anywhere in one turn, it kind of ruins the point of having a large air force if i am playing on a continents map that happens to be too spread out as my planes have no way of reaching the other continents.

maybe have a multiple turn rebase option for long distance rebases?

@ a_chinchilla

big fan of total realism
You could not choose any better.

I would like to see a jet bomber be available as an alternate upgrade from the bomber as well.
Saddly till the release of Warlords Total Realism 2.0 Gold (or Total Realism for Warlords 2.0 Gold) progress on Vanilla Total Realism wont even shake.

maybe have a multiple turn rebase option for long distance rebases?
Planes shuld have "rebase" range. But still 1 turn is like a 1 year in modern era and in real time you need 13 hours to get from Europe to US.

@ a_chinchilla

Planes shuld have "rebase" range. But still 1 turn is like a 1 year in modern era and in real time you need 13 hours to get from Europe to US.

I realize the logic behind this, my only problem is that I have no way of getting my bombers across an ocean, making any airforce i have useless if i want to attack someone on another continent. I would just like some way to get them over the ocean.

Carriers work for getting fighters and strike fighters across, but its a lot of micromanagement and does not solve the bomber problem.

I realize the logic behind this, my only problem is that I have no way of getting my bombers across an ocean, making any airforce i have useless if i want to attack someone on another continent. I would just like some way to get them over the ocean.

Carriers work for getting fighters and strike fighters across, but its a lot of micromanagement and does not solve the bomber problem.

this feature was added by RogerBacon in his original Flying mod
i have some idea how to improve this (something like extended rebase - when you will pay some money to base over 2xrange limit - but this is for now only as paper idea)

this feature was added by RogerBacon in his original Flying mod
i have some idea how to improve this (something like extended rebase - when you will pay some money to base over 2xrange limit - but this is for now only as paper idea)

That's not a bad idea Mexico... Have it as a button next to the ordinary rebase button... "Long Range Rebase" (with a cost associated based on distance rebasing vs normal rebase range) - Rebases to any available city or carrier by use refueling aircraft in transit." (NB these refueling aircraft wouldn't exist in-game any more than the aircraft which perform an airlift)

That's not a bad idea Mexico... Have it as a button next to the ordinary rebase button... "Long Range Rebase" (with a cost associated based on distance rebasing vs normal rebase range) - Rebases to any available city or carrier by use refueling aircraft in transit." (NB these refueling aircraft wouldn't exist in-game any more than the aircraft which perform an airlift)

damn, how you can read mi mind???? :eek:

this is exactly how i thinking of this :D

damn, how you can read mi mind???? :eek:

this is exactly how i thinking of this :D

i have some idea how to improve this (something like extended rebase - when you will pay some money to base over 2xrange limit - but this is for now only as paper idea)


I belive you think too loud :)

damn, how you can read mi mind???? :eek:

this is exactly how i thinking of this :D

Difference between us in this case is that I'm not smart enough to help you make it... ;) :D

Any chance of getting the current Zero model that seems to be just a reskinned default model replaced with this one from nautil? http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=165101

another idea: ancient units (swordsman, archer) and some early gunpowder units (musketman, grenadier, cannon) should either not be able to attack/defend against helicopter units, or have greatly reduced combat strengths against them.

Guys:
There's no way a su-27 or a mig-29 could be shot down by a biplane, as it's been happening in my game as russia. For the sake of realism, it has to be changed.

@ Propunk

Russian pilots ftw ;)

Guys:
There's no way a su-27 or a mig-29 could be shot down by a biplane, as it's been happening in my game as russia. For the sake of realism, it has to be changed.

No, there's no way, I agree.
First of all, a biplane is not going to be able to even see the jet long enough, let alone aim and fire (velocity difference).
Secondly - biplane's guns fire at a very slow rate, compared to some 5000 r/min modern jet guns. To take it further, biplane is not going to be able to hit the jet with its guns. Also, again, because the jet moves so much faster.

@ Anaztazioch - yeah ;)

Hmm, I might be dumb or something, but how do you transport spies/GP/whatever via Zeppelins?

I ordered my spy to go aboard the Zepp, and can't seem to find a way to drop it off on a nearby island(?)

Demeryt- You rebase you zepplin and unload them there...

no way of dropping them off somewhere...

Okay here is my beef:

-A---------B--C------D

When I played regular civ4, if your units attacked from A, and your opponent had a plane "intercepting" on B, then it would protect B and C only. Even though my plane had to fly through them to get to D.

Please fix this if you already haven't. the reason I don't know if you have fixed it or not is....

1. I'm lazy
2. I have yet to have a single air battle in my Total Realism game. I am playing as Greece in Prince level. Besides a failed Africa campaign, I have steadily conquered. My only opponent in the old world is China. He is probably 3-4 techs behind. I have zepplins, and will be learning flight soon. Therefore.. I bomb with impunity. :king:
3. I have stopped trying to play this game since it is only a matter of time before I roll through tibet and into the heart of china. Where his musketmen will try and stop my tanks... It is fun for 20 minutes.. not after that. (Did I mention that his stack of 7 musketmen has been hit by 12 Zepplins?)
4. I have moved on to being Inca. On monarch level. I hope to have fun with Air units in several months. Real time months. I don't play a lot.

Thank you for making this... uber... game