Please discuss your ideas about mercenary Units.

It's already been mentioned in the old thread, but simply.

There should be a chance for mercs to go rogue and refuse to come back. Chance increasing with length of time away from army.

WarKirby

More or less:

Merc units are full upkeep, but after each successful contract, they receive a "Merc-xp" type buff that lowers the amount of upkeep/cost for upgrade/unit strength, etc. This models the idea that merc units mostly pay for themselves after a number of contracts, and that they have a vested interest in maintaining the best weapons and readiness available.

Will cut-n-paste my posts from the last thread if needed.

What about mercs Wont go fighting for civ that its owner is in war.

Unfortunately, the U.S. merc vs. the U.S. situation is an issue with balance... if we were to truly mimic mercenaries, then once you convert a unit as a merc, you wouldn't be able to get them back... and mercs (for the most part) don't care what they're doing as long as they're getting paid... and if you're willing to pay enough, you can find someone willing to do just about anything. *shrug*

an important thing. in rhyes mod, his available mercenaries only include units that the majority civs have the technology for them. so it is not based off of just era. if there are 18 civs then say 10 or so must have the tech needed for a unit before it is made available in the mercenary pool. you guys should pm ryhe to see what he did to do that, if you dont know hwow to do that of course.

an important thing. in rhyes mod, his available mercenaries only include units that the majority civs have the technology for them. so it is not based off of just era. if there are 18 civs then say 10 or so must have the tech needed for a unit before it is made available in the mercenary pool. you guys should pm ryhe to see what he did to do that, if you dont know hwow to do that of course.

I agree with Spartan's suggestion; mercs should not be overpowered, only one to two levels at most better than the purchasing civ.

http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2004/04/international_l.html
see....:mischief: and i seen it on history channel:D

anway, i think if the majority of civs have that technology then you can hire the newest units. Mercenaries right now pay for their own things and maintain their own equipment. so a country does not need to know the tech inorder to hire them or maintain them(refer to earlier sentence:lol: )

mercenaries in real life, their operations are cheaper then a nation's military. They operate on a smaller scale and are more effective per person then most countries. what costed the UN billions of dollars to do a worse job in sierra leone only took the government millions for the cost of mercenaries who did a more effective job. I am not so sure of differences in mercenaries compared to a country's soldiers from earlier time periods though. But mercs in general are making a comeback, due to the soviet union's fall.

Since it is frowned upon maybe there could have a negative diplomacy effect. -1 we dont like that you hire soldiers(since it would seem as if preparing for war) or maybe that just too much:)

man it does get hard answering on different threads concerning the same topic:lol:

Partial cut-paste from the other thread:
The highest tech merc unit available should coincide with the highest tech civ in the game (if it's not a player)... if the highest tech civ is a player, then the only way his tech soldiers get in the merc queue is if he puts them there. you ignore player countries for the purposes of merc tech determination.
Availability of the highest tech mercs should be low as well, assuming the player isn't flooding the market with his troops.

Seeing as the discussions are much more focussed here, I thought I'd move this snipppet to the right subforum. Any thoughts or advances on my suggestion anyone?

The mercenary mod means that I can build up twice the forces I would normally before starting a war - I just build my units and stick them on the open market until I have enough forces - and I don't have to pay any maintentance on my mercs forces until 3 turns before I bring them back and move them to the front.

(1) giving these forces a merc 'de-promotion' that means they don't fight as well for the nation that built them.
(2) only allowing them to fight for the home side when there is a General present, as national pride would need to be bolstered by leadership.
(3) bringing them back into my forces with no promotions and 0.1 health, again reflecting loss of discipline and bad conditions during mercenary service.
(4) possibly the most realistic is that they have a chance of going rogue - this happened with the Thuggees in British India in the 19th century, and probably elsewhere. After being demobilised these Indian troops formed a cultish highway robbery syndicate that made travel dangerous in several regions for several decades.

I'm not sure if this idea is fully baked just yet, but it might spark off some other views in the rest of you?


5) paying maintence for units that are not hired ?

Good idea with mercs. Let see if Mexico is able to implement this. The problem once a merc has been hired by another civ and he is fired and back in the queue. Who pays the upkeep? It is good though that mercs with lower experience need normal upkeep while more experienced less upkeep. This makes sure people don't overflow the market with cheap units and use the merc pool as a cheap army reserve pool.


http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=173492&page=97

Seeing as the discussions are much more focussed here, I thought I'd move this snipppet to the right subforum. Any thoughts or advances on my suggestion anyone?







http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=173492&page=97
Your ideas sound good, now to flesh them out.:)

**(1) giving these forces a merc 'de-promotion' that means they don't fight as well for the nation that built them.**

Why? Look at it like this: Mercs get paid to fight... it is not in their interest to pull punches like that. Not following through means less likely to get hired, which means less money in their pockets.

**(2) only allowing them to fight for the home side when there is a General present, as national pride would need to be bolstered by leadership.

See Blackwater. They have their own command/control facilities, leadership etc. Mercs aren't stupid.

**(3) bringing them back into my forces with no promotions and 0.1 health, again reflecting loss of discipline and bad conditions during mercenary service.

See Blackwater, et al. While they may not have the same style of discipline, they are not undisciplined. Many mercs are former military, and many Private Military Companies are run like they are the military. Different working conditions do exist, but they have the money to pay for better conditions, assuming they aren't sucky mercs. Think about it, if you and everyone on your team is making $200k a year, wouldn't you pay a bit so you can have fresh Starbucks out in the middle of Iraq?

**(4) possibly the most realistic is that they have a chance of going rogue - this happened with the Thuggees in British India in the 19th century, and probably elsewhere. After being demobilised these Indian troops formed a cultish highway robbery syndicate that made travel dangerous in several regions for several decades.**

Maybe if your merc unit was extremely shady. I'll do some more research before I say too much, but doing business like that is not in a merc's best interest; and while they may like getting paid for fighting, they're not heartless criminals (or at least the good ones aren't) ... also, I am finding no support for your assertion that the Thugs were mercs at one point, see wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee) and also a site (http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~cgiacolo/index.htm) dedicated to the cult.

OK, so thats all my ideas shot down (though refer (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Empire-Britain-Made-Modern-World/dp/0141007540/sr=8-1/qid=1158347346/ref=pd_ka_1/026-4838938-6834843?ie=UTF8&s=gateway)to Niall Ferguson, Empire for the Thuggee theory).

Any better ideas? Because I still feel the mercenary aspect is well worth including but does not work as is. Bear in mind (as I'm sure you are) that Blackwater is not the only mercenary force!

I have an idea. How about, upon returning to national service from a mercenary life, your men demand higher wages for their skill, reflected in a higher upkeep cost, like 2-20 gpt depending on how skilled the unit is.

WarKirby

Depends on which way you want to swing it, Kirby...

I briefly touched on this before:
on one hand, you have mercs that are the very definition of stereotypical mercs... if that's the case, you should never be able to get them back as a regular unit. Ever. If you went this way, mercs should aquire XP at rediculous rates, operate on their own (upgrading themselves, etc).

On the other hand, you have mercs the way they are currently implimented, where you can call them back. Are they greedy and ask for more money? Are they self-sufficient? I would personally lean towards self-sufficiency once they have completed contracts under the assumption that there's a portion of the money being paid for their services that they keep... and they use that money to further themselves, requiring less of your money for the deal.
There's a reason why mercs are used today, primarily because they supply services you can't afford/supply at the time, and the fact that, for the most part, they're better at the job than most... a merc company is significantly smaller than a military one, able to do things better (for the most part), and in the end, even if they are better paid, they are cheaper than doing it yourself...

Quick post re: stuff in the old TR thead. To help fix the "Egyptians with hypaspists, but a merc rifleman", would be it possible to require certain resources or to scale cost by tech level? Ie. You have to have iron to hire iron units, saltpeter for gun units, etc? Or for every X tech levels ahead the merc is, then you suffer a Y multiplier to hire cost?

Quick post re: stuff in the old TR thead. To help fix the "Egyptians with hypaspists, but a merc rifleman", would be it possible to require certain resources or to scale cost by tech level? Ie. You have to have iron to hire iron units, saltpeter for gun units, etc? Or for every X tech levels ahead the merc is, then you suffer a Y multiplier to hire cost?
The more advanced the merc, the more difficult/expensive it will be to hire. Makes sense.

The more advanced the merc, the more difficult/expensive it will be to hire. Makes sense.

Here's an update to that idea: Make it so you have to have the specific resource to build the unit, and if you don't, then you apply the multiplier to the unit cost.

Why? The mercs need to repair/maintain their equipment... if you don't have iron, how are merc swordsmen going to keep their gear working? No gunpowder? Where will they get the powder for their bullets? Multiplier might scale by level of tech... Idea behind this is that the mercs have to import supplies or make their own.

eg:
base merc cost = 1.0
merc more advanced than your civ = 2.0
lack req'd resource (early, like copper/iron)= +0.25
lack req'd resource (late game, like saltpeter) = +1.0

Here's an update to that idea: Make it so you have to have the specific resource to build the unit, and if you don't, then you apply the multiplier to the unit cost.

Why? The mercs need to repair/maintain their equipment... if you don't have iron, how are merc swordsmen going to keep their gear working? No gunpowder? Where will they get the powder for their bullets? Multiplier might scale by level of tech... Idea behind this is that the mercs have to import supplies or make their own.

eg:
base merc cost = 1.0
merc more advanced than your civ = 2.0
lack req'd resource (early, like copper/iron)= +0.25
lack req'd resource (late game, like saltpeter) = +1.0
The maintenance and resource requirements would make for enhanced gameplay IMHO

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Nerf the amount of promotions the mercs have.. and ensure they only have promotions applicable to that unit type (eg no tanks with Defence). They should only have a max of Level 5 or so.

Additionally, there needs to be some way so that a merc unit can't be hired by a civilisation which doesn't have the techs required to create that unit itself.

If these issues can't be fixed with this part of TR, it needs to be shelved until it can be fixed up.

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Nerf the amount of promotions the mercs have.. and ensure they only have promotions applicable to that unit type (eg no tanks with Defence). They should only have a max of Level 5 or so.

Additionally, there needs to be some way so that a merc unit can't be hired by a civilisation which doesn't have the techs required to create that unit itself.

If these issues can't be fixed with this part of TR, it needs to be shelved until it can be fixed up.
i alredy tried to limit level of merc...but now this look like i nedd to rewrite core engine of this, becaus ecreation of merc use thys system: created unit, then for each existing promotion is chance, that unit gain this, then filled prereq for each promo (so if you got combat lvl 5 promo, you also get combat1,2,3,4) -> this lead to too much promotions for unit -> big level for unit
so as first step there is lowered chance to acquire promo
now i am working (for now as draft on paper) on new creation system (unit -> random generator to max level -> then gain promotions for this unit/level) - i think that this system will solve much problems with mercs (also i want to migrate merc mod to SDK as much as possible)

i alredy tried to limit level of merc...but now this look like i nedd to rewrite core engine of this, becaus ecreation of merc use thys system: created unit, then for each existing promotion is chance, that unit gain this, then filled prereq for each promo (so if you got combat lvl 5 promo, you also get combat1,2,3,4) -> this lead to too much promotions for unit -> big level for unit
so as first step there is lowered chance to acquire promo
now i am working (for now as draft on paper) on new creation system (unit -> random generator to max level -> then gain promotions for this unit/level) - i think that this system will solve much problems with mercs (also i want to migrate merc mod to SDK as much as possible)

Cool. Well, thanks for your feedback there Mexico. I definitely don't want to sound ungrateful or blaise about the amount of work you guys do. I mean jeez, I wouldn't know where to begin when it comes to doing this kinda stuff. :)

Thanks for keeping us all in the loop :goodjob:

It's a shame that the merc list has to be populated automatically. Would be great if the merc queue was kept empty and the AI/you had to submit units to it. I also haven't seen any of my units in the merc queue actually receive XP either :( Seen em die, but haven't seen XP gain.

It's a shame that the merc list has to be populated automatically. Would be great if the merc queue was kept empty and the AI/you had to submit units to it. I also haven't seen any of my units in the merc queue actually receive XP either :( Seen em die, but haven't seen XP gain.

I agree with this, why can't the AI and player be responsible for providing mercs??? I'm sure the AI may not even submit many (mercs) as of yet but, if you do some programming here and a litter there than I'm sure you can script the AI hire out mercs under the right conditions.

I for one don't really like seeing Native Americans being pimped out by the Egyptians etc.

Yep. And I hate it when I'm stomping a mudhole in the Aztecs (best unit: longbowmen-era)and then they whip out a rifleman merc ... when I'm the only person with the tech to build riflemen.

Then I shrug, and bomb the hell out of them. The cheers for ranged bombardment :)

About hireing mercenaries this.

In Barbarian mod (Warlords original mod) you have a camp unit where bought units spawn, and you buy them via "close to" mercenary screen.

What im proposing is a building "fighters guild", that can be build rather fast and in every city, but there will be a limit of 1 per civ. Limit will look like palace. "Fighters guild" will mark a city where hired mercenaries will spawn.
"Fighters guild" could use modified/unmodified camp unit script.

Also "fighters guild" can be an improvement, but it will be harder to make 1 improvement for civ...

And maybe you can hire mercenaries only from civs you have contact whith ?

About hireing mercenaries this.

In Barbarian mod (Warlords original mod) you have a camp unit where bought units spawn, and you buy them via "close to" mercenary screen.

What im proposing is a building "fighters guild", that can be build rather fast and in every city, but there will be a limit of 1 per civ. Limit will look like palace. "Fighters guild" will mark a city where hired mercenaries will spawn.
"Fighters guild" could use modified/unmodified camp unit script.

Also "fighters guild" can be an improvement, but it will be harder to make 1 improvement for civ...
there is no problem with building requirment for merc - it is already implemented, but not used. one big problem is : how to teach AI, where camp can be builded????

I agree with this, why can't the AI and player be responsible for providing mercs??? I'm sure the AI may not even submit many (mercs) as of yet but, if you do some programming here and a litter there than I'm sure you can script the AI hire out mercs under the right conditions.

I for one don't really like seeing Native Americans being pimped out by the Egyptians etc.

I totally agree with this, but maybe AI has no "reason" to add units to merc pool in its "logic".

@ Mexico

Details... tought about that, but didnt want this idea to "die" so fast... thanks Mexico...

@ Mexico

Details... tought about that, but didnt want this idea to "die" so fast... thanks Mexico...

Mercs Bug (Warlords Beta4)

I know I've whinged about Mercs before, but this one is BIG

It would seem picking and choosing between Mercs with LUDICROUSLY high levels of promotions as opposed to just STUPIDLY high levels of promotions doesn't matter anymore...

Reason being there's No mercs to choose from, because the AI, regardless of it's monetary situation, buys out EVERY merc unit in the damned game (confirmed through WB as well as simply checking out an empty merc roster)

There's no way the AI civs have enough money to buy the mercs they're buying let alone maintain them. And this is just making the previous issues with Mercs I've well and truly shouted my ass off about all the more unbalancing. This has reached critical mass fellas, it's getting beyond a fricking joke. :mischief:

You've omitted Dale's from Warlords Beta 4 for stability and gameplay reasons til it could be fixed. That's a decision no reasonable person can contest. Time to face reality and likewise omit Mercs til it's F*cking well fixed too! How many frickin times do I have to say it? Omit the bastard already if it can't be fixed.... :cool:

This is either a mod for players or a mod for munchkins. No offense, but I'm calling it as I see it. Time to get "real".... :)Mercs Bug (Warlords Beta4)

I know I've whinged about Mercs before, but this one is BIG

It would seem picking and choosing between Mercs with LUDICROUSLY high levels of promotions as opposed to just STUPIDLY high levels of promotions doesn't matter anymore...

Reason being there's No mercs to choose from, because the AI, regardless of it's monetary situation, buys out EVERY merc unit in the damned game (confirmed through WB as well as simply checking out an empty merc roster)

There's no way the AI civs have enough money to buy the mercs they're buying let alone maintain them. And this is just making the previous issues with Mercs I've well and truly shouted my ass off about all the more unbalancing. This has reached critical mass fellas, it's getting beyond a fricking joke. :mischief:

You've omitted Dale's from Warlords Beta 4 for stability and gameplay reasons til it could be fixed. That's a decision no reasonable person can contest. Time to face reality and likewise omit Mercs til it's F*cking well fixed too! How many frickin times do I have to say it? Omit the bastard already if it can't be fixed.... :cool:

This is either a mod for players or a mod for munchkins. No offense, but I'm calling it as I see it. Time to get "real".... :)

Mercs Bug (Warlords Beta4)

I know I've whinged about Mercs before, but this one is BIG

It would seem picking and choosing between Mercs with LUDICROUSLY high levels of promotions as opposed to just STUPIDLY high levels of promotions doesn't matter anymore...

Reason being there's No mercs to choose from, because the AI, regardless of it's monetary situation, buys out EVERY merc unit in the damned game (confirmed through WB as well as simply checking out an empty merc roster)

There's no way the AI civs have enough money to buy the mercs they're buying let alone maintain them. And this is just making the previous issues with Mercs I've well and truly shouted my ass off about all the more unbalancing. This has reached critical mass fellas, it's getting beyond a fricking joke. :mischief:

You've omitted Dale's from Warlords Beta 4 for stability and gameplay reasons til it could be fixed. That's a decision no reasonable person can contest. Time to face reality and likewise omit Mercs til it's F*cking well fixed too! How many frickin times do I have to say it? Omit the bastard already if it can't be fixed.... :cool:

This is either a mod for players or a mod for munchkins. No offense, but I'm calling it as I see it. Time to get "real".... :)Mercs Bug (Warlords Beta4)

I know I've whinged about Mercs before, but this one is BIG

It would seem picking and choosing between Mercs with LUDICROUSLY high levels of promotions as opposed to just STUPIDLY high levels of promotions doesn't matter anymore...

Reason being there's No mercs to choose from, because the AI, regardless of it's monetary situation, buys out EVERY merc unit in the damned game (confirmed through WB as well as simply checking out an empty merc roster)

There's no way the AI civs have enough money to buy the mercs they're buying let alone maintain them. And this is just making the previous issues with Mercs I've well and truly shouted my ass off about all the more unbalancing. This has reached critical mass fellas, it's getting beyond a fricking joke. :mischief:

You've omitted Dale's from Warlords Beta 4 for stability and gameplay reasons til it could be fixed. That's a decision no reasonable person can contest. Time to face reality and likewise omit Mercs til it's F*cking well fixed too! How many frickin times do I have to say it? Omit the bastard already if it can't be fixed.... :cool:

This is either a mod for players or a mod for munchkins. No offense, but I'm calling it as I see it. Time to get "real".... :)


Hi Uncle Anton,

Cooool ! We know the problem. But you have to know that we are at that time only three in the Team.:eek: And we are not Bacterias ! We don't duplicate every hour ! We can't do all we (and you) are waiting for in one day...
Mexico is working on this. I will ask him and Houman to try to quickly solve this problem, if it can be solved. At first mercs are a good thing IMO. But when it works like this perhaps we have to think to remove it until it will be fixed.
I hope you understand that we can't go as faster we hope and that we are doing our best.:)

Hian the Frog.

Hi Uncle Anton,

Cooool ! We know the problem. But you have to know that we are at that time only three in the Team.:eek: And we are not Bacterias ! We don't duplicate every hour ! We can't do all we (and you) are waiting for in one day...
Mexico is working on this. I will ask him and Houman to try to quickly solve this problem, if it can be solved. At first mercs are a good thing IMO. But when it works like this perhaps we have to think to remove it until it will be fixed.
I hope you understand that we can't go as faster we hope and that we are doing our best.:)

Hian the Frog.

Gah. Sorry Hian. I say stupid things when I'm frustrated. I know you guys are trying as hard as you can. :)

But yeah. Might be a good idea to just leave it out of the mod for now, til it can be dealt with. :)

hmm...in my game there is still too much mercs in pool = AI don't buy all mercs
AI chose to buy merc when he is at war or he is preparing to start war

i also agree to remove merc from game already (i never used this feature :), and it is too bugged - city flopping bug, not-so-good AI, multiplayer OOS, too high level mercs, too far advanced mercs, ...), but much more peoples love this

so i am trying to fix most bugs, but don't have time do this :(

mexico

Lets start with selecting "install merc" option in installer.
Something simmilar to Blue Marble and White Flags options.

This way, those that want them will have 'em, and those that dont...guess ;)

Lets start with selecting "install merc" option in installer.
Something simmilar to Blue Marble and White Flags options.

This way, those that want them will have 'em, and those that dont...guess ;)

interesting idea....but it is not so easy, because this mean modify python files on-fly ... or maybe...hmm...i have idea, i will try do this :)

because this mean modify python files on-fly

I tought so, just "removing" merc *.py files might not be a good idea.

I just took a look at my game in WB... half the world's armies are made up of Mercs. How the AI civs can afford them all I don't know. But yeah.... I know a lot of people like this mod, and I like the idea of it too... but like Dale's, it needs to be taken offline for Beta 5 until it can be fixed, and then put back in so that it works the way it's supposed to. :)

@ Uncle Anton

I havent seen this even on diety. 3 or 5 mercs per AI max, exept for war. Like 5 or 8% of AI's army are mercenaries. Bad thing is that his stongest units is hypaspist, and mercenaries are usually war elephants vs my archers...

@ Uncle Anton

I havent seen this even on diety. 3 or 5 mercs per AI max, exept for war. Like 5 or 8% of AI's army are mercenaries. Bad thing is that his stongest units is hypaspist, and mercenaries are usually war elephants vs my archers...

Well, I just started a new game and I've been unable to replicate it again either.... :eek: Confirmed on WB as well, hardly any mercs... only ones that ARE there is coz an AI civ is struggling against some local barbs... that's about it. :confused:

Well, at least it's not blowing the game out of all proportion now (My game's on a much lower level than Diety... I think I'm on Noble)... still in favour of pulling the mod for the time being tho.... But ah well... I might have to just put this one down to random occurance....

At the begining there are NO mercenaries. They are showing up as time passes.

Now to Bug sector, i have a funny mercenary bug ;)

At the begining there are NO mercenaries. They are showing up as time passes.

Hehehe Not JUST started... don't take it too literally... this was a hundred turns or so in. ;)

Than you hack, as I NEVER seen such a thing in my games.
Or youw atch the screen with YOUR units setup to mercenary market, if yes, than you havent set up any so its empty. :)

Than you hack, as I NEVER seen such a thing in my games.
Or youw atch the screen with YOUR units setup to mercenary market, if yes, than you havent set up any so its empty. :)

Gonna be pretty hard to check wtf happened since I've since started a dif game from the one that I had the problem with. Having said that, yeah, probably find I did something dumb and looked at my own contracts.... :blush:

Like I said before, the current game I'm running is working fine... can't replicate what was happening beforehand, so I can only assume I'd done something stupid. :)

I don't know what you mean by "Hack" :p but I'm pretty sure I don't do it, since all I do is play the game, and I sure don't know enough about python or XML to be able to "Hack" anything. :)

Loved customising Civ2 back in the day tho. That game was so much fun to mod... extra units and stuff... :goodjob:

I don't know what you mean by "Hack" but I'm pretty sure I don't do it, since all I do is play the game, and I sure don't know enough about python or XML to be able to "Hack" anything.

Did you download a trainer ? Maybe wall-hack ;)

Did you download a trainer ? Maybe wall-hack ;)

Not sure what a wall hack is. :)

The only game I've ever downloaded a trainer for was GalCiv 2, and only then coz the game had such a steep learning curve. Most of the time if a game is too hard to get to grips with, I'll play something I can actually enjoy. :)

Anyway, I'm gonna discontinue on this thread, as it's getting offtopic. :)

because of unbalanced game, mercenary component in next release will be optional, disabled by default
for player, which still want use this component, it can be enabled when installing TR mod

mexico

Thats good.
Will this also disable mercenary promotions ? (the one with red background)

Thats good.
Will this also disable mercenary promotions ? (the one with red background)
promotions is still shown in civpedia, but you can't acquire this in game - it is added only when creating mercenary unit (but i will try do this too - as my reward for your testing :) )