Ideas about general combat system.

Will you be adding in Dale's Stack combat component for warlords since he appears to have released all relevent code now?

Will you be adding in Dale's Stack combat component for warlords since he appears to have released all relevent code now?

At the moment it does not work if you use a naval unit to attack a transport containing land units. The land units defend.

So until Dale fixes this problem - I vote do not use it.

Otherwise a great Mod.

Land units defend? ARRRR! AVAST YE MATEYS, HARR HARR!

lol

BUt this is not within our Stack sttack right? I am sure we have deactivated the land units inside ship, and Dales stack attack isn't yet released as code anyway.

Also, I think the Civ-series need to include the concept of manpower. It´s strange that cities can just pour out new units without any effect on the city itself. If you train soldiers, you would reasonably lose some manpower that would otherwise be working in towns, farms or mines. So, there need to be an effect where the building of a military unit will reduce the remaining civilian population that can work the city area. Maybe, one lost population unit for every three military units built in a city. This would place a more realistic and interesting strain on your civilization if you are fighting long, bloody wars.

Edit:

Link for an earlier discussion on this subject, that I found:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=79318&highlight=manpower

Any opinons on this? seems interesting....

Any opinons on this? seems interesting....

Hi man,

Yeap, quite good idea. The more money you have the greater army you have: that's civ4 main problem, IMO. If you add an other "ressource" to build your army, such as pop or food, it would more interesting and realistic. An army need many things to be operative, so why not including other factors.

The Frog

Population loose for building mil units is a nice idea. And the 1-3 ratio is also thinkable (and i think with just loosing 1/3 of food in storage simple to include).

But i think a more creative way will be a loose rate based on unit-type. The Warrior need 5 food, Marin 20 food, Gunships 10 food and so on. There are units that need more manpower then others. Units like Gunships or planes mostly need production. Simple soldiers are much more cheaper to equip, but need much more people.
This will also display that larger cities can produce much more units before getting smaller. (I think a city size 10 is much more bigger then 2 times a city sized 5 - exponential - maybe 2^size)

I think something like this is a quiet big change in gameplay. The food will be much more important - cities on bad food position aren't realy able to build mil units.
But often they are in good production place ... ideal for building up an army in the current version of Civ4 ... and realy bad with this changes.

aaarrrggg, this simply hurt my stomage, i can't find a proper solution in my mind.

Why should marines require 4 times as much food as warriors?

I can think of no logical reason for that. Care to fill me in?

Warkirby

If anything, Marines would cost less food. I've ate what they make us military types eat and I tell you, it's not food. Or if it is, it's nothing close to what you're used to. :)

Why should marines require 4 times as much food as warriors?

I can think of no logical reason for that. Care to fill me in?

Warkirby

because a single unit of marines represents a larger number of people then a single unit of warriors?

If anything, Marines would cost less food. I've ate what they make us military types eat and I tell you, it's not food. Or if it is, it's nothing close to what you're used to. :)

:lol: :lol:

Population loose for building mil units is a nice idea. And the 1-3 ratio is also thinkable (and i think with just loosing 1/3 of food in storage simple to include).

But i think a more creative way will be a loose rate based on unit-type. The Warrior need 5 food, Marin 20 food, Gunships 10 food and so on. There are units that need more manpower then others. Units like Gunships or planes mostly need production. Simple soldiers are much more cheaper to equip, but need much more people.
This will also display that larger cities can produce much more units before getting smaller. (I think a city size 10 is much more bigger then 2 times a city sized 5 - exponential - maybe 2^size)

I think something like this is a quiet big change in gameplay. The food will be much more important - cities on bad food position aren't realy able to build mil units.
But often they are in good production place ... ideal for building up an army in the current version of Civ4 ... and realy bad with this changes.

aaarrrggg, this simply hurt my stomage, i can't find a proper solution in my mind.

its gonna be quite difficult to come up with the amount of food certain units should need. It will be hard because there are a lot of units:D

it might be better to have to have a general a specific amount of food for all units rather then specifically for each different unit.:confused:

I think you're right there.

Also, it should be possible to reabsorb units to gain some food and hammers.

WarKirby

because a single unit of marines represents a larger number of people then a single unit of warriors?


Yeah, i thought this way ... in ancient time an army has how many man? 20 warriors? ... I think a Marin Squad is bigger. And 5 food is in the beginning simply more valuable then 5 food later ...

But that isn't important - to compare a marin with a warrior ^^. It is more important to hold the units of one time in balance.

To add one small thing:
This food thing would also respect to shift from many units (early middle age) to expensive units. But after all food is a requirement. Especially in big wars.

In every time there are expensive units (like bowman - because of the longer training) and less expensive (spearman). This will help us balancing it ... high production citys can produce "shield-units" like bowman or planes ... high food cathering citys more the "food-units" like warriors or Infantrie.

I think you're right there.

Also, it should be possible to reabsorb units to gain some food and hammers.

WarKirby
For that you would need the Cannibal Unit.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

No. Reabsobing as food and hammers is representative of the unit joining the population and workforce of the city.

because a single unit of marines represents a larger number of people then a single unit of warriors?


Hi Spartan.

I'd disagree there mate...

The game doesn't specify how many people are in a unit of Marines, or a unit of Warriors. It just calls it a "unit".

And I'd also disagree with Exerior. Just coz a unit was older, doesn't mean it's smaller. Zulu Impis were huge. Xerxes Immortals could be argued to be one "unit" and they numbered 20,000 or so? Alexander's army was huge. The battles described in various religious texts are equally large, and if the Illiad has any truth to it, The Greek army that nailed Troy certainly wasn't tiny either.

Just because a unit is more advanced, doesn't make it numerically smaller. :)

Edit: Misread Spartan's question. :)

exexpt the warrior and marine do not reperesent the same number of people. One marine units may represent 35,000 people where as 1 warrior represents 1,000 people.

I dont care how little the mariens may eat, they would still eat more combined then the unit group of warriors,:D

THere is something in the game that represents this, did you ever check the stats in the game.:crazyeye:

It tells exact total population, the # exact number of people you have in military;) , life expectancy, approval %, etc...:thumbsup:

My largest military ever consisted of 23 million strong :satan:

High Tech units less food is the same thing as warriors vs marins.

If you need around 2 times the Production (Hammers) to produce a plane ... say 100 Million Dollar. How many planes will you get?
And how many Marins do you get with 50 Million Dollars?

Maybe you will get around 1 plane (this is around the price for the new "Eurofighter"). You will need let's say 2 pilots and a staff of techniquen - maybe 5 ingeneures. And some ground troops in towers (but the towers to control air units are also expansive). We got 10 ppl to food.

For 50 Million Dollar ... how many Marins do u will get? Now the most part of the price is the training. One Year of training will consume around 50.000 Dollar per Marin. The equipment will cost ... let's say again 50.000 Dollar per Marin. Now we get around 500 Marins for 50 Million Dollar (Half the production cost of the plane).

And you are trying to say, that 10 Man plane-crew eat the same amount of food then 500 Marins. To be honest, i dont believe it.

exexpt the warrior and marine do not reperesent the same number of people. One marine units may represent 35,000 people where as 1 warrior represents 1,000 people.

I dont care how little the mariens may eat, they would still eat more combined then the unit group of warriors,:D

THere is something in the game that represents this, did you ever check the stats in the game.:crazyeye:

It tells exact total population, the # exact number of people you have in military;) , life expectancy, approval %, etc...:thumbsup:

My largest military ever consisted of 23 million strong :satan:

Ahhh.... yep, the Demographics screen... :blush:

I've never sat down and done the math on how many soldiers the game calculates for each.. Good call Dude, ignore me, I'll shut up now... hehehe. :goodjob:

lol, you guys are delving far too deep ,seriously just take the game for what it is (entertainment) not for factual depictions or historical accuracies If you take the game for "Total Realism" than you'll never get pass the most basic game concepts and you'll never have any fun.

UU or ethnically diverse units are based on historical accounts but if you were to rewrite history than anything is possible as well as certain religions never being developed etc..list is infinite.

anyway, how does a certain aircraft unit or transport unit transport 35,000 marines all simultaneously??? I understand that if could represent a certain number of aircraft too but than what about prodution of not just one aircraft but hundreds or even thousands and only being represented by on token or unit placeholder.

P.S. I'm going to stick to my history and science books for learning and, Civ TR for entertainment, I recommend the same for everyone else.
NO more flame war, lol j/k...

MindProphetX,

I agree with you. It's a game, only a game. The best one IMO, even if many many things could be done to make it even more better....
My only wish is to have a mod where all civs are playable, with their own strenghts and weaknesses....

The Frog.

First of all: These aren't flames at all. If you think so ... think abou your post :)

Yeah, first of all Civ4 is fun. But - to be honest - calling a mod "total realism" and doing every change without thinking about physics ... doesn't make any sense.

Think of the player who read the title: "Total Realism" - yeah, this is MY mod, hopefululy all logic mistakes are absend in this mod.
He install the mod and find "just" a mod that make a lot of changes ... but don't move the game in a "realism" way.

An other player want a mod that increase the fun factor. And he thinks: More realism will destroy the game for sure ... so he will not download a Mod named "Total Realism".

It is a question of "our" aim for the mod.

-------------------------

I want to add one thing to the "number diskussion". I started the discussion only to get a pro-argument for food-based-military. Because if every unit needs the same high amount of food the production cities will fall back behind the "food"-cities. To balance such a change (make food-cities more important for war) is quiet hard!
Therefore high mil units need less food ...

I think the requirement of food for units will not work unless some system can be implemented to transfer food between cities, so that a city with lots of farms can feed a city which has lots of mines but little food production capacity.

WarKirby

@MindprophetX - Hey, don't get me wrong mate, I agree. It's all well and good to have representations of realism, but not at the expense of fun and game balance. :) I was just curious as to how that food support thing would've been represented... ;)

Good call by WarKirby... I miss the old Civ 2 trick of switching food between cities. Governments do undertake subtle pop management in RL too, so it's not that far fetched. Not sure how it'd be accomplished, but then again if I was, I guess I'd be contributing to the mod. :D

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4676884#post4676884

Kael's tutorial for "adding nationality"

Adding this to privateers would make it like it was in civ 3. Attacking without declaring war. Same with "assasins"? A more minor detail, I also propose that the assassin's name be changed into terrorist or something along those lines. Seeing in my opinion as teh capabilities of the assassin seem more inline with terrorists.

very interesting finally we can make proper Privateers. ;)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4676884#post4676884

Kael's tutorial for "adding nationality"

Adding this to privateers would make it like it was in civ 3. Attacking without declaring war. Same with "assasins"? A more minor detail, I also propose that the assassin's name be changed into terrorist or something along those lines. Seeing in my opinion as teh capabilities of the assassin seem more inline with terrorists.

Hi man,

I agree. Privateers and assassins (terrorists) should be allowed to attack without declaring war.

The Frog.

Hi man,

I agree. Privateers and assassins (terrorists) should be allowed to attack without declaring war.

The Frog.

i agree too :) but i can't promise, if i will be able implement this to 2.0 gold release

assassins should be able to "produce" terrorist actes even at war. Now they are attacking defenders.