http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/str03-2.jpg

With the first 2 STR-games being military games, and with encouragement from Pvblivs, the 3rd one will be more peaceful. Or will it :mischief:?

The settings:
Game Version: Warlords
Difficulty level: Monarch
Map type: Fractal, with 3 continents
Map size: Standard
Game speed: Epic
Civ: Vikings
Leader: Ragnar (Aggressive, Financial)
Victory conditions: All are enabled. However, we are not allowed to win through Domination or Conquest.
Opponents: Random 7
Barbs: On
City flipping after conquest
Permanent Alliances

Variants:
- We may never adopt mercantilism but favour free markets.
- We may only build coastal cities, except for one inland city on our home continent.
- If someone attacks our trading partner(s)., we gain a casus belli on the aggressor and must declare war. A civ is a trading partner if we have at least one running deal with them, not counting Open Borders. We may attack other civs without the casus belli as we see fit, but remember that a military win is not allowed.

Roster:
1) Strauss
2) Pvblivs
3) karr1255
4) Bede
5) Asperger


We will also require one person (not participating) who can roll a start for us and check if we have 3 landmasses.

24 hours for a 'got it', additional 48 hours to play. I won't be a total nitpick about time limits; just try to keep up the pace.

House rules:
1) Discussion is important. Discuss important decisions (like war) with the team.
2) Please check your reports for spelling mistakes and interpunction, so that it’s easy and fun to read.
3) Have fun at all times

Sign me up, sounds like fun. Maybe you should put backdoor diplomatic in there to conquest and domination if you want a rather peaceful game.

Ok, you're in. I don't want this to be a peaceful game per se, we will definitely fight wars. A military win is not allowed in order to prevent the game just coming down to conquest in order to win the game as soon as possible.

I'll take the kroner, Strauss. Looks like a good chance to get a Warlords game under the belt.

Great to have you on board again Bede. Stay with us this time;)

I would like to do a warlord SG if you don't mind my english isn't 100% correct:)

I would like to do a warlord SG if you don't mind my english isn't 100% correct:)

Just do your best.:) Nice having a fellow Dutchman along.

With the roster full, I would roll a start right now, but I can't.... I need someone to roll it for me to check for 3 landmasses. I already sent someone a pm.

Checking in. Looking great, Strauss. As Warlords is focused on military this will be a rather interesting game.

On the map... I don't know exactly but I think you need a high waterlevel to have chance to roll a start with 3 landmasses. That is at least my experience.

You forgot, Strauss, that one victory condition should be to have a trading outpost (city) on every landmass (not including tiny islands). :nono: Or won't we need such a hard condition as we have the "don't attack our trading partner" policy? For me it is still a soft goal :)

I would even disable space race (for us). This seems a too easy condition to choose if no one likes you. If it would be forbidden we would be forced to find some real nice buddies that we can trust. Or we would have to by our diplo victory with vassals ;)

Looking forward to playing this with you guys!

Strauss has asked me to roll up the start. I will do so either tomorrow morning or tomorrow night. Seems straight forward. I'm *only* confirming the continent count, right?

Ups, looks like a series for me. The second game in a row diced by Rex :D

Yeah, just ensure that we have have 3 (at least) major (biiig) landmasses. The rest is up to you. Even where you place the sheep.

:sheep:

Strauss has asked me to roll up the start. I will do so either tomorrow morning or tomorrow night. Seems straight forward. I'm *only* confirming the continent count, right?

Yes. And don't try to pull any of your tricks on us!;)

@ Pvblivs: I didn't forget the rule, but I thought it would be too many variants. Also, we will probably only be able to reach other continents when we get Astronomy, by which time the AI might have settled everything, forcing us to attack him/them, losing one (or more) potential trading partner(s).

@ space race: You're right about that. Add it to the forbidden victories list. This leaves Cultural and Diplomatic victories. Time is also allowed, but I hope we won't have to go for that.....
If I (or Rex actually) disable the Space Race for everyone, will that affect the AI's behaviour? If they can't peacefully tech their way into space, will they become more agressive?

No, don't disable. In a normal game Space Race is the only way to loose. Just forbid it as victory condition.

I cannot add anything to your posts :p

Tonight I thought about a soft rule to maximize trade route income. I think for traders this is a suitable goal. So herewith I'm saying to be heard and obeyed :lol: by the team: If it isn't good for our trade income, it might not be good for our game ;)

Here you go, folks. I edited the map in a few small ways, really to keep with the spirit of your game. I had to connect two small continents to make one large one. Make a path for pre-astronomy vessles to keep you from complete isolation. No pranks whatsoever. Essentially, I just couldn't get the right start with random re-rolls.

Feel free to believe me if you want. (I'm pretty sure my credibility is shot with Bede. One too many "I'll play tonight" postings for him to believe anything I write.)

Good luck.

Edit: Okay, that middle one was *supposed* to be the set-up screen, showing the options I checked. I guess you can't take a screenie of that screen. Sorry. Anyway, it was Monarch, Vikings, fractal, high-water, random climate, epic, ancient, city swap after conquest, new random seed, and permanent aliances on. (I think.)

Strauss's up! :) :hammer:

Puff the Magic Dragon? Happy, Peaceful Boringland? Out of all people, I had to ask *you* to roll the start:help:


Strauss's up! :) :hammer:

Wiseass:lol: I'll play tonight. I think settling in place looks like the way to go, unless the Scout reveals something interesting.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0002-1.jpg

We don't know how to build roads or farm our lands, but apparently we can build skyscrapers[pimp] .

Very funny Rex. I had a kind of sinking feeling when I heard the music.....:lol:. Please tell me you have the real start in your folder though though:twitch:

Uhhh...That's some sort of game glitch. I didn't do anything with the Era, date, or anything. Let me load it up on my box and see if I get the same.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/85158/Your_Name_Here_BC-4000.CivWarlordsSave

Okay. Take two. I tried several rerolls off of those same settings and kept getting Modern Era 4000BC starts. I don't get it. But when I completely rolled up a new game, all went well. :shrug:

Unintentional pranks are always the best, right?

Okay. Take two. I tried several rerolls off of those same settings and kept getting Modern Era 4000BC starts. I don't get it. But when I completely rolled up a new game, all went well. :shrug:

Unintentional pranks are always the best, right?

:gripe: I fear for what awaits me when I get home....

:rotfl:

(This is here because Civfanatics forces me to write down at least 10 characters)

Hey Strauss, did this work?

Sorry, I haven't had the time to play it yet. Should get to it in an hour or so. My weekend has already started, so I can play a bit later.

I may require a swap. I cannot play before Sunday now. I expected to play yesterday but you just've been too slow :rolleyes:

I may require a swap. I cannot play before Sunday now. I expected to play yesterday but you just've been too slow :rolleyes:

Ah, now you made me feel all guilty:(

It's ok with me I'm ready to play, if Strauss finally gets going. :rolleyes:

Ah, now you made me feel all guilty:(

I'm good at such things. :D

So we finally get underway, and here’s our start:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0002-2.jpg

4000 BC: Found Nidaros in place.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0003-2.jpg

We have an interesting start. Not particularly promising, though we do have Wheat, Cows and Silk in our BFC. Thanks to the river we will probably build a lot of Watermills on the plains. I can also see ice to the south, meaning we’re in the southern-most area of the map. I start research on Agriculture and a Warrior in Nidaros. We also have two Goody Huts around us, let’s hope from something useful from them.

3940 BC (Turn 2): And we do get something useful!

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0004-2.jpg

I don’t change research to a religion because it’s too risky with 2 turns lost, but perhaps we should try and get the Oracle for CoL.

3880 BC (Turn 4): Pop a map from the other hut.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0005-3.jpg

3850 BC (Turn 5): I find a good site for our 2nd city. It has a small overlap with the capital, but Clams, Crabs and Cows in range for a nice food bonus.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0006-3.jpg

3670 BC (Turn 11): Finish Warrior in Nidaros, start on another to wait for the city to grow to size 2.

3640 BC (Turn 12): I spot some purple borders to our northeast, probably Rome.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0007-5.jpg

3610 BC (Turn 13): Agriculture comes in, and I start on Animal Husbandry.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0009-5.jpg

And we meet Asoka!

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0010-7.jpg

3520 BC (Turn 16): Pop 27 gold from a hut.

3490 BC (Turn 17): Nidaros grows, so I change production to a Worker.

3400 BC (Turn 20): We meet Mali on our own landmass.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0012-3.jpg

3370 BC (Turn 21): Buddhism is FIDAL.

3340 BC (Turn 22): Asoka converts to Buddhism.

3250 BC (Turn 25): We meet the ultimate trading partner, Tokugawa, on our own landmass.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0014-3.jpg

3160 BC (Turn 28): AH comes in, start on Mining to go to Bronze Working.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0015-3.jpg

2950 BC (Turn 35): Worker is finished, continue on Warrior.

2890 BC (Turn 37): Mining comes in, start on Bronze Working.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0016-4.jpg

2800 BC (Turn 40): Our Scout is wounded in a battle with Panthers, he has to heal for 4 turns.

The known world:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0017-3.jpg

We have a better start than I first thought. I see some strong spots for our (coastal) cities. We might run into food problems since it’s a cold climate and not a lot of grassland. There’s also not a lot of commerce on land, but since our cities will be coastal we will get it from the sea with +1 commerce on each water tile. We did meet 3 civs on our own landmass, meaning there are only 3 left for the remaining 2 landmasses.

With free Mysticism, I think the opportunity for the Oracle is too big to pass up. We could go for either Code of Laws or Metal Casting as a free tech. Getting Code of Laws for Confucianism would allow us to spread the religion quickly to our fellow civs, making them like us and also adding to our own treasury with the Shrine. On the other hand, Asoka has founded Buddhism, and I think a civ who founds a religion cannot be converted. It might also spread to Mansa quickly, meaning we would be better off without Confucianism as it might not be worth the investment in missionaries to convert Mansa.
Metal Casting as a free tech would give us the Colossus (very important!) and a quick route to Optics and access to other landmasses and trading partners.
My personal preference lies with Metal Casting at the moment. There is also a small chance for us to grab Hinduism if we switch research to Polytheism right away. If we manage I’m definitely for Metal Casting.
We will also need the Great Lighthouse. It requires Masonry, which we will probably grab for the Oracle. It will also require a Lighthouse which comes with Sailing, which we’ll probably get after we’ve cleared the requirements for either CoL or Metal Casting. We should get at least two of these three wonders, with the Oracle and the Colossus having the priority.

We have met Asoka, Mansa Musa and Tokugawa. I think Tokugawa can be written off as a trading partner. Asoka and Mansa are friendly people and will make good trading partners. However, they are two leaders with a high potential of ‘running away’ in technology, so we must watch them closely. Them becoming too advanced will not be good for our trading position.

My dotmap:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0017-4.jpg

Red Dot is the most urgent site (on a hill), as Mansa could be quick to grab it. It’s not an amazing site, but good enough. Yellow Dot is a very good spot. It will grab Rice, two Elephants and Marble, making for a good food/production combination. Pink Dot will grab Cows, Clams and Crabs (the Wheat is overlap from the capital) giving it a lot of food. It can wait until Red and Yellow have been founded though.

Roster:
1) Strauss --> just played at last
2) Pvblivs --> on deck
3) karr1255 --> UP!
4) Bede
5) Asperger

EDIT: I knew I would forget something at this hour! Actually, I even forgot two things:

I played 40 turns. Everyone else will play 20 turns during the first round, and from then on it will be 15 turns each.

And here is the save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/78327/STR-03_BC-2800.CivWarlordsSave

Alternative dotmap:

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1259/altdmnetjesvo3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Strauss' red dot has to little food i think, so i moved it two tiles west to take the rice; i moved the yellow dot one west to get three grasslands extra; moving the purple dot one tile east gives it one extra grass and one extra coasttile (=3 gold while an oceantile gets only one)

I guess you switched Pvblivs for me for this round. However since i can't play until sunday either Pvblivs should play his turns first and we keep the order.

I like Aspergers red dot much more for the food and it would give us the time we need as well. Second dot would be next and pink dot third (poor production site).

Note that with the capital in the center we cannot have any city that is not on the coast. But it seems like Rex made it very easy for us to follow this constraint.

I've got it and will play in about 20 hours. :D

But it seems like Rex made it very easy for us to follow this constraint.

I didn't do jack. Everything you see is a product of the map script, with but a very few alterations. I didn't touch your home island. (Or did I?:mischief: )

Sorry guys. My weekend's gotten longer than expected. So you'll have to wait another 24 hours for my report to come.:sad:

Sorry guys. My weekend's gotten longer than expected. So you'll have to wait another 24 hours for my report to come.:sad:

I find it unacceptable for anyone to slow down this game:gripe:

:lol:

It's great to know having the support of the game leader :p

Somehow I played 22 turns instead of 20. I can play 2 less during my next turn. On what's been happening during my set ...

2680 (4): Our healing scout is attacked by a lion and gets wounded almost deadly. But the lion is really dead now.

2650 (5): Another lion is hunted by our fresh warrior travelling to our first trading post site.

2620 (6): Our victorious warrior takes a rest in the forests north of our capital and once again is threatened by wild beasts. This time a wolfs fur is carried to Nidaros to be traded away.

2470 (11): Does someone know this guy? He tells us that we're mediocre :mad: He will learn how mediocre a Viking can be.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg

2410 (13): Archers thus early? I know we cannot always blame Rex but hey...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg

2380 (14): We send the archer back to his chieftain, even with his own arrows - in his head.

2290 (17): We learn this:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg

And I decide to go for that:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/Civ4ScreenShot0004.jpg

Why not Meditation? Well we've got Marble at our second city site and the Temple of Artemis is a traders wonder. I say: Go for it!

I've some bad luck with our scout. I know I should've kept him in the woods. Mea culpa :sad:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg

2230 (19): I'm really annoyed with these:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg

He has to pay for his offense:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/Civ4ScreenShot0009.jpg

You probably noticed the copper in the north. Now the most urgent third city site seems clear. 2nd is Mansa Blocker and 3rd Copper Town.

Our capital at turn 20c:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/Civ4ScreenShot0012.jpg

The settler should be ready a little sooner than predicted through the silk chop. Build another one at once and the Oracle thereafter. Note that a warrior is queued. He had to wait because the settler had priority.

The hidden save of the Viking Traders (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/STR-03_BC-2140.CivWarlordsSave) :eek:

Looking good. Having copper in the north is great, with two elephant camps and a couple of forests it will have a nice amount of shields.

Archers thus early? I know we cannot always blame Rex but hey...

Hehe, if something goes badly wrong in this SG, we'll just blame Rex:lol:

Roster:
1) Strauss
2) Pvblivs --> just played (finally:p)
3) karr1255 --> UP!
4) Bede --> on deck
5) Asperger

Got it and will play right away. Somebody has to speed things up a little. :rolleyes:

Going to play 18 to even the count.



pre turn: Nidaros is working a grass forest instead of the wheat :smoke:. Rearranging shaves 1 turn off the settler.


T1 - Mansa built a city in a uncomfortable spot (1east of the cow and our 2nd city spot)


T7 - Settler done start another one


T10 - I found our 2nd city Uppsala


T13 - Poly is in and i start on the wheel to connect the copper and marble later on


T18 - On my last turn i switch to slavery so a monument can be whipped in Uppsala. Settler #2 and another warrior finish on the next turn.



I guess the plan now is to get the copper up and some military and the marble for the Temple of Artemis. We're also in need of another worker.

/e: My pictures got screwed and i already deleted them. I guess the forum doesn't like waffleimages.

I always forget the damn save. :blush:

Don't forget we also still need to build the Oracle. Should we go for Confucianism or Metal Casting as a free tech? Bede, I suggest you research Priesthood after The Wheel comes in. If we're going for Metal Casting (which is my personal preference for the Colossus), then Iron Working should come right after Priesthood.

Roster:
1) Strauss
2) Pvblivs
3) karr1255 --> just played
4) Bede --> UP!
5) Asperger --> on deck

If we get the oracle i would pick metal casting without a doubt and try for the colossus. Does anyone know the usual building date for the temple of artemis, because i have no idea.

If we get the oracle i would pick metal casting without a doubt and try for the colossus. Does anyone know the usual building date for the temple of artemis, because i have no idea.

This being my first serious Warlords game, I don't have any idea either;)

@ Colossus: I think everyone here will agree we need this one. It would be foolish to pass up on it in a game where all except one of our cities will be coastal

Woops. :eek: Good roster. Playing, sleeping, another set already played.

Temple of Artemis is about the same as Oracle. I only suggested because we've got marble. Marble allows us to build two wonders in a time we would have needed for one otherwise.

I agree on the Colossus. This has priority but isn't that urgent as the Temple as Metal Casting isn't _that_ early usually. And we've got Copper which makes the Colossus easy as well.

Got it. Will need another 24 to finish.

In one of my own games, which was also monarch and epic, the Temple of Artemis got build at 125BC. So you have a little more time than with the oracle which usually falls at ~800BC. So a date to remember for the Temple on monarch should probably be 100BC. Hope this helps for the upcoming turns.

Got another town on Asperger's spot 3, got the Monument whipped into Uppsala and started another settler to get the benefit of those clams and cows. Uppsala is working on the Temple of Artemis. Masonry is due in 1 and we can research Priesthood for the Oracle just about the time the Marble hooks up.

Mansa is eating our beef in the east

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/37083/Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg

Our corner is should be pretty barb free, though there is an Indian archer trapped in the northeast. Buddhism is spread into our territory and it is the religion of the Indians and the Malinese. I did not covert. Judaism was founded in a distant land.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/37083/STR-03_BC-1000.CivWarlordsSave

There is no way we can still get the oracle, I'd say don't even try it. The Temple might be possible with marble and if Uppsala grows a little bit.

I say: try it! Why not? We're traders and we've nothing really useful to build else. It's important to connect the marble of course and maybe to use the :whipped:. But what does it cost us to try...

Otherwise some nice turns. It seems like we've some powerful cities. Let's hope for the temple because then the cultural challenge is easily won.

On Tokugawa: He's not that introverted guy from CivIV anymore. He indeed has become nicer. We should seriously think about whom we want to make our friends...

I am not capable of playing until Monday morning. So please skip or swap me as required.

Got it. I'll build our next city on Strauss' purple dot at the very western edge of our continent. If we get Colossus oceantiles will give us 3 gold, and maybe there's extra fish.. I'll go for the Oracle.

Well if you try to build the oracle it would give us gold, which isn't half bad. However I would not whip or chop because I just can't see this happening on monarch. It's 1000BC the marble isn't hooked up and it isn't even started.

My suggeestion is to focus on city growth and maybe get some axemen. We have to go to war sooner or later, we can't slug it out on this tiny peninsula forever. :hammer:

Well if you try to build the oracle it would give us gold, which isn't half bad. However I would not whip or chop because I just can't see this happening on monarch. It's 1000BC the marble isn't hooked up and it isn't even started.

Whipping would be really is ok as, differently to previous Civs, a building is built at the end of your turn and not in the beginning. Thus if you have 1 turn left, it is built. So whipping, buying etc. would be very ok because it guarantees us to get it. Even just-in-time chops :)
You would have to wait for the BIDAL messages though before you want to whip, else you may be very sorry.

My suggeestion is to focus on city growth and maybe get some axemen. We have to go to war sooner or later, we can't slug it out on this tiny peninsula forever. :hammer:

I agree that this won't be our maximimum extent and that we have to think about expansion (and defense) rather sooner than later.

But I disagree with a need for wars as business-as-usual. We are traders! Expanding at the costs of potential trading partners should not be done without political reason, and if it only is "we offered you three trades and you declined" or "you are annoyed with us so why bother". If someone is trading with us very reliably and shows a good attitude (>= pleased) we should not go to war.

Eventually i didn't go for Priesthood and Oracle, because our other city's should have nothing to build, so i went for Pottery (granary) and Sailing (trading post). Our capital only has 2 good tiles, and after barrack i had to choose between warriors or a settler, choose the last.

970 BC Uppsala gets buddhism, good for culture fight with Mansa.

955 BC Uppsala gets cow back with borderexpansion.

865 BC Marble ready. Open borders with Mansa, good for business.

805 BC Pottery > Sailing

775 BC Asoka asks us to convert to Buddhism, agree cause this means good relations with our two nearest leaders.

760 BC Copper ready

700 BC Uppsala can build the Temple of Artemis without chopping in 16 turns. After Sailing i suggest to go for Writing, our foodrich city in the west can easily take two scientists. Uppsala after Temple of Artemis > Great Lighthouse ?
Stonehenge and Great Wall have been build, Oracle not! If i had gone for it, the build now would have been at 2/3 i think...

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/743/strauss700bcfe4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/63149/STR-03_BC-0700.CivWarlordsSave)

Got it, will play now.

Good set of turns and I agree with the tech order. Of course I will look like an idiot if the oracle isn't build in the next 3 turns. :lol:

But why another settler in our capital? We don't have any use for one right now, so I would support growth a little more.

But why another settler in our capital?

There's a spot that takes deer and fish [EDIT and whale on long term], and i didn't have anything else to build (till i got pottery).

That makes sense then, couldn't make it out on the map and was too lazy to look at the save. :shifty:

Btw. Is it correct that Pvblivs gets skipped and it's my turn after Strauss?

I would say yes if you can do it before monday morning. (or swapped).

I would play as soon as he's done. Maybe still today (its 10pm here) or tomorrow.

I already played, but my internet's acting like it's a dial-up, and I can't upload pictures. I don't want to send out a report without some pictures, so you'll have to wait till tomorrow:(.

By the way, did no-one notice it's Pvblivs' birthday? He's become 27 today!

Congratulations :beer:

[party] :band: :bday: :beer:

Correct. Play on guys. Amazing that there's still no AI that tried to build a free technology...

[party] :band: :bday: :beer:

Happy birthday , youthful one!

I wouldn't hestitate to whip in the Temple then head straight for the Great Lighthouse at Uppsala. The capitol should have a Granary, then a Barracks. The other two coastal towns should be working on boats for the fishy in the sea and for exploring the coastlines. And if we don't have sailing that should come next in the research path as it will open the coastal trade routes, IIRC.

Otherwise I like where we stand though not trying for the Oracle bothers me a little but not enough to say anything.....

Thank you, guys. Finally I'm some kind of young but I feel as old as you :rolleyes: :p

Had a great time with my friends yesterday evening. And this weekend is a surprise of my girlfriend. So I'm just gonna drive where she tells me and we'll be having a great time till sunday.

After work today ;)

Otherwise I like where we stand though not trying for the Oracle bothers me a little but not enough to say anything.....

You just said something....

Sorry, but my internet still isn't working properly so I couldn't upload any pictures:(. Things should be clear enough though at this stage.

-----------------------------------------------------
IT (700 BC): I micromanage Uppsala to shave 8 turns off the Temple of Artemis and 1 turn off Sailing.

Turn 4 (640 BC): Bjørgvin is founded on Asperger's #4 'dot'.

Turn 7 (595 BC): Sailing comes in, start on Writing.

Turn 10 (550 BC): Mansa Musa FINALLY builds the Oracle.... We could have built it like 7 turns earlier. We should come up with a suitable punishment for karr1255:mad:

T13 (505 BC): Tokugawa converts to Buddhism. Now we're all one happy family!

Turn 15 (475 BC): End of my reign

-----------------------------------------------

I'm sorry Pvblivs, but I think we will eventually have to go to war with Mansa. He's already 100 points ahead of us, and now that he's grabbed the Oracle he probably will become a runaway again. Aside from that, as karr1255 mentioned, we don't want to stay on our tiny peninsula forever with only 5 cities. This isn't RB25!;) We will have to cut Mansa down to size eventually. When we do, I suggest to leave his northern city/cities unharmed and make him our vassal to act as a buffer against Tokugawa.

Okay, I forgot that if I can't upload pictures I can't upload saves either:rolleyes: . It's too late now, but if it doesn't work tomorrow morning I'll just transfer the save to another pc.

Here it is at last:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/78327/STR-03_BC-0475.CivWarlordsSave

Got it and I wil play later tonight.

T1 - Writing in and i start on alphabet(-> literature?)

T3 - Toku demands to cancel our deals with the Mali. I agree since war with Mansa is on our to do list. And that §$%$% Toku doesn't even give us +1 for the agreement, while Mansa refuses to talk now. :sad:

T4 - We complete the Temple of Artemis! :woohoo:

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/787/templesi4.jpg

T5-9 - Nothing really happens. I just continue to build axes

T10 - Out borders push Mansas further away. This city will be easy to take.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3300/maliborderwt9.jpg

T11-15 - More axemen building.

I mostly build a bunch of axes and positioned them in Uppsala. Also note that the first 3 mali cities we would encounter, including the capitol, are coastal. :mischief:

Looks like it is back in my hands. War with Mansa should make a nice diversion.

Metalcasting and The Colussus the other priorities.

What can I say, Mansa is a wuss.

Here is where I started

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR02/Str03_002.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR02/Str03_003.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR02/Str03_005.jpg

And here is where I ended

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR02/Str03_007.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR02/Str03_008.jpg

With this stop in between

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR02/Str03_006.jpg

Learned Alphabet then fiddled around with the research path and finally landed on Monotheism for the Organized Religion bonus. May be able to pick it up in trade after capturing Mansa's capital. Metal Casting is way too far off for right now.

Swapped in and out of building the Great Lighthouse and axes at Uppsala depending on what was needed at the time. The Great Lighthouse will actually be a greater longer term benefit for us than the Colussus anyway so I would whip it in just as soon we can. Uppsala is already pulling +5gt from a trade route with India, so the GreatLight will only help that and all the way into the Modern Era.

Got the library into the little burg with all the fishies, at the cost of unhappy people, but there is so much food there that you can whip it down to two working citizens and still grow like a weed with room for more whipping.

Every place else with barracks alteranted between an axe and a library or other appropriate building. Trading Posts are way powerful for the Viking BTW as they add XP to boats. (Bede loves boats).

Not sure if there is enough muscle at the gates of Timbuktu to really finish the job, as the ratio of kills is about 3-2 in our favor and he will have 5 defenders in the city and we will only have six ready to attack on the next turn or so. May want to wait for reinforcements to make their way. I would have sent some by sea, but there is only one trireme currently available and she is doing blockade duty at Timbuktu. Mansa has one more city in the fog SE of Timbuktu which may not be worth the aggro to capture, and there is barbarian city due east that may be worth the candle though.

Much fun this match up, even if Mansa is a slightly less than worthy opponent.

'This image or video has been moved or deleted '.

is what i get in stead of images from Bede ? Is this my computer or has everybody else this ?

Have a look at the save: our finance level is at 20 % That's very low already. Timbuktu needs at least twice more attackers than defenders to conquer. I would stop whipping our fish city , give it two scientists and when we get currency (market) give it also two merchants.

Roster:
1) Strauss
2) Pvblivs --> skipped until Monday
3) karr1255
4) Bede --> just played
5) Asperger --> UP!

Asperger, if you can play today you should take it, and then Pvblivs will take it after you. After that we'll go back to the regular roster.

Hey guys. I'm back! :woohoo: Could play if you'd let me ;)

Welcome back Pvblivs, hope you had a nice birthday weekend. Go ahead and play.

I had! I've never been to a four star hotel (at least in Germany) with a stars cook. It was a great weekend. My girl knows how to surprise me, simply have to say this. Though she might lack some money know :)

This is a "got it". :hammer:

25 BC (0): I cancel the Galley at Bjordvin. It could never leave our waters south. Did you notice the glaciers? Starting barracks instead. Increasing science rate to 100%.

10 BC (1): Great Lighthouse BIDL :sad: Timbuktu now has 5 defenders, one north, one south (on the rice). I decide to pillage the rice to slow down Timbuktu but realize that we won't take it with the knowledge we have. Promoting an axe two cover and loosing it at 66%. Cleaing up with two other that are sent out to harrass. Rest is going southeast.

5 (2): St. Patrick is born in Uppsala. Send him to Nidaros to settle and generate money and hammers.

20 (3): Monotheism is in. Going for IW.

35 (4): As Timbuktus borders expand, Kumbi Saleh becomes completely worthless. Timbuktus defense is now at 60% and 7 Skirmishers defend it. That's too much for our axes. We'll come back later.

50 (5): Discover Gao, that is defended by three Skirmishers at 20%.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/Civ4ScreenShot0016.jpg

Btw. Did you know that cover is more useful against archers attacking and defending at 30% that city garrison (25%)? Just wanted you to know and to promote accordingly as long as we dealwith archers mainly as we've got some CR but no cover promotions yet

65 (6): Mansa offers peace for archery. No.

95 (8): Asoka captures Teoihuacan. We loose 3 axes at Gao and kill 2 skirmishers.

110 (9): Pyramids BIDL. Another skirmisher is killed in Gao and we raze it, capuring some 60 or 70 gold and 2 workers.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/Civ4ScreenShot0017.jpg

125 (10): The Parthenon is BIDL. Intersting: Timbuktu is now only defended by 2 skirmishers. Since I left the cities Mansa has drawn those troops elsewhere.

The rest of my turn I spent healing troops and finally converging 11 axemen to Timbuktu. Asperger should be able to take Timbuktu in the next 2 or 3 turns (arriving in 1). He has to care that 3 skirmishers from the east will not reach Timbuktu before it is captured. And it is to be expected that another 2 to 3 skirmishers are put into Timbuktu before we can attack. So do anything you can to hold off those 3 or we won't capture it.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/Civ4ScreenShot0021.jpg

Once we've captured Timbuktu, I would expect Mansa to capitulate, but he can't, since we didn't research Feudalism yet. And this is needed for vassalage. So I would suggest to simply make peace for a technology and force Mansa into Capitulation or eliminate him later.

Then it should be time for heavy trading as, you know, we're traders after all :rolleyes:

Bring Mansa Musa down! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/STR-03_AD-0200.CivWarlordsSave) :hammer:

Pvblivs, you may take Mansa down yourself. It's 15 turns per set. Now that I mention it, I don't know if Bede did that....

Maybe I should do it the LK-way and put it under the roster:crazyeye:

I played 15 turns (25 BC - 200 AD), Strauss. It's just that after turn 10 nothing noteworthy happened except my approaching Timbuktu.

I played 15 turns (25 BC - 200 AD), Strauss. It's just that after turn 10 nothing noteworthy happened except my approaching Timbuktu.

Woops. I see it now. When I saw turn 10 and no 11-15 I replied without checking up:rolleyes:

Roster:
1) Strauss --> on deck
2) Pvblivs --> just played
3) karr1255
4) Bede
5) Asperger --> UP!

Open borders with Tokugawa (!), commerce goes +3 up.
Give Birka, our fishcity, 2 scientists and emphasis not to whip it to much.
Bjorkvin is working worthless tiles so this city will be whipped (trading post, library)

First turn Iron Working comes in and Nidarus has iron.
Research Metalcasting (why did we research IW first?)

Second turn we conquer Timbuktu at the cost of five axemen (there were three defending skirmishers but with 60% defencebonus)

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2946/1timbuktunn5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Make contact with Mansa and get the following:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/8870/2peacemansaht6.jpg

A few turns later we already get open borders with Mansa again.
Send a galley and a warrior to scout Toku and Asoka.
Galley sails along Delhi and this city looks like our next victim, with Great Lighthouse and the Mahhabodhi...

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4556/3nextvictimasokato2.jpg

Revolt to Organized religion.
Discover another civilization (Hatsheput?) but can't make contact..

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/3062/4maybehatsheputep4.jpg

At the end of my turns we get Metalcasting, Uppsala stars Forge
If next player wants to chop it to get it quicker, he can get Mathematics for Alphabet from Toku or Mansa.

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/258/5worldvieuwie7.jpg

Will we get the Colossus (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/63149/STR-03_AD-0425.CivWarlordsSave)?

Things are looking good. @ Delhi being our next victim: probably yes, but that is still some time away. He is not a direct threat like Mansa was so we should leave him in peace for now. We do need to keep a close watch on him that he doesn't become too advanced.

Will play now.

First turn Iron Working comes in and Nidarus has iron.
Research Metalcasting (why did we research IW first?)

Because it really wasn't clear that we could capture Timbuktu in the beginning of your turn when I had to decide what to research next. When I decided I saw instead that Timbuktu had 7 defenders. We would hardly have managed to take down 7 skirmishers at 40, not to even mention 60% at the next turn. This only supported my decision.
I even though about Mathematics and Construction... But I saw that IW at least helped us a little (with its bonus for Metal Casting).

Only because we moved to Gao first and assembled our troops behind the borders somehow Mansa was too sure he could hold his capital, smoked some of his :smoke: stuff and pulled his defenders off.
I hoped this would happen but I couldn't foresee it. Thus I researched Iron Working in hope for iron and swords rather than the twice as expensive Metal Casting without immediate advantage. I know that the :smoke: on my side was to gamble for iron rather than to go for something sure like forges.

IT (425): Both Mansa and Asoka have Alphabet, so I trade it to Toku for Mathematics.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0000-15.jpg

I switch research to Code of Laws, we need some Courthouses more than the Great Library.

Turn 2 (455): I check the trade screen and trade Rice to Asoka for Silk.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0002-7.jpg

Don’t forget that we’re traders, so check that trade screen every now and then.

Turn 5 (500): I hear a strangely familiar music. Does Warlords re-use a Civ3 tune?

Turn 6 (515): We’re only Mediocre in culture according to some Herodotus.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0004-7.jpg

Turn 8 (545): Hanging Gardens BIDL.

Turn 10 (575): Another Civ3 tune.

Turn 11 (590): CoL comes in.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0005-8.jpg

I go for Currency, it gives one extra trade route. Let’s stay in character here.

Turn 15 (650): The Colossus is due in 3 turns. We're almost sure to grab it with an apparent monopoly on Metal Casting.

On my final turn, the yellow borders pop and we meet Shaka of the Zulu. Since this is my first time at Warlords, I don’t know his personality, but I’m thinking he’s not the nicest guy around. I do make a nice trade with him though:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0008-6.jpg

His lands:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0009-9.jpg

The known world:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0011-6.jpg

Our trades:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/Strauss1/Civ4ScreenShot0013-8.jpg

And just over 3 hours after his last turnset, Pvblivs is UP again:lol:

Roster:
1) Strauss --> just played
2) Pvblivs --> UP!
3) karr1255 --> on deck
4) Bede
5) Asperger


http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/78327/STR-03_AD-0650.CivWarlordsSave

IT (425): I switch research to Code of Laws, we need some Courthouses more than the Great Library.

Our science rate was 50%, that's not bad, and courthouses can wait and the GL not...

Shaka is not a nice person, but if he attacks someone, we aren't obliged to support him (now we trade with him), not ?

I expect Pvblivs to play tonight:)

@Pvblivs, i researched of metalcasting for the Colossus, not for forges.

Never seen three successive turns so quickly:goodjob:

We still have a decent chance for the GL, none of the known civs have Literature, and we can research it in 6 turns or less after Currency. With marble the Great Library is still a possibility.

We also can get a lot of money from Asoka and Mansa...

Whew! That went fast. Right choice going for Gao while the attacking force for Timbuktu bulked up a little. And nice bits of trading all round.

Asperger: Yes, I know. I would never have gone for the Collossus as I didn't know Timbuktu would fall.

And no, not tonight, maybe next night, Tuesday night latest.

Nice turnsets so far, guys - I've got it!

Ummm... could you please again swap with me, karr? I definitely can play on Wednesday but neither now nor tomorrow.

And please schedule my holidays from 4th to 15th of October. The mediterranean awaits my presence. :cool:

Got it. Will play later or tomorrow.

I'm gone from 3rd to 7th October if we already schedule turns. ;)

Pre turn - I look over everything and notice that we get +9 relations with Asoka from religion. :eek: Has this religious bonus become even stronger in warlords?
Also some micro of city tiles, mostly from working sea tiles towards cottages.


T1 - With 1 move of the work boat I meet another trading partner and the founder of Judaism:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Viking%20Traders%20SG/IMG001.jpg

He is the score leader and has a pretty good tech advantage. That should change a little though, once our new land starts kicking in.


And in Shakas capitol I spot this:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Viking%20Traders%20SG/IMG002.jpg

But he's missing alphabet for literature so GL might still be possible.


T2 - I start chopping 2 forests around Walata because it's total junk right now.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Viking%20Traders%20SG/IMG003.jpg


T3 - A big wonder for us completes [party]

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Viking%20Traders%20SG/IMG004.jpg

And I have to micro all cities again to use the power of sea tiles :lol:


T4 - We surpass Huayna in score but his tech lead is pretty big.

T5 - I trade metal casting to Mansa for calendar and 200 gold. We start to get into happines problems and the gold will give us literature fast.

T6 - Currency done and I continue literature. But Shaka has alphabet now and the great engineer is still sitting in his capitol, while Toku has literature. :sad:

T7 - Literature done in 1 and look at our standings after colossus and currency. :)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Viking%20Traders%20SG/IMG005.jpg

T8 - Literature in and with some micromanaging of our capitol the GL will be done in 10turns. I set research to compass and we break even at 50% research.

T9 - zzz

T10 - Set Uppsala for growth and let it build an axeman so we don't drop too hard in power. Research up to 50%(+10).

T11 - Another courthouse done. Research up to 60%(+5). :cool:

T12 - Shaka still doesn't have literature. Open borders with Huayna.

T13 - Great Prophet born in Uppsala. I let him sit in Nidaros for now.

T14 - zzz - Research up to 60%(+10)

T15 - Compas done and research is set towards civil service (9 turns with profit). The GL had 3 turns left but I whipped it so it's safe. Toku had the tech for ages and Shaka still the GE so I think it's the best move.


The Great Library will complete on the next turn. Huaynas tech lead isn't nearly as big, he has some cheap techs on us but stuff like monarchy only costs us 3 turns.
Our cities are all set on growth and commerce (manually though I never use the city manager). I suggest to continue a heavy focus on micro management because the colossus has a lot of potential. I also started building some harbors, Uppsala has trading routes of +5 from Osaka and +5 from Tokyo without one. :eek:
We also need to discuss what to do with the great prophet. Christianity and Taoism are gone already.

I've got it :)

I'd settle the prophet, what do you think? The longer we wait the less he'll be of worth for us...

I'd settle the prophet, what do you think? The longer we wait the less he'll be of worth for us...

I probably agree with this, what does he lightbulb? We could also save him up for a Golden Age.

If we intend to attack Delhi and/or Djenne in the near future, we can use him there for the shrine.
I propose to build (and whip) markets in our foodrich city's, they will need, and can use, more specialists.
As traders, aren't we obliged to possess the Great Lighthouse (as soon as possible)?

If we intend to attack Delhi and/or Djenne in the near future, we can use him there for the shrine.


I would vote against another war with Mali soon. We have mauled him beyond recovery and for now he serves nicely as a buffer to Tokugawa.
I also wouldn't want to attack Asoka just yet. Thanks to the religious bonuses he is a very good friend and a great trading partner. We will need to keep an eye on him and may need to do a 'pre-emptive strike' when the Space Race starts.

I would either settle the prophet or save him for a golden age (prefer that) but lightbulbing is rather pointless. He would give theology and if we have that divine right nothing really useful. Also after the GL our capitol will give us a GS sooner or later and we will probably pick up the free merchant from economics. Though it might be more fitting to use him for a trade mission.

And I would advise against war right now. We are in the drivers seat, #1 in land(or close), pop, GNP, prod and food. So maybe after we get our UU and trebs but not right now. Plus theres no real target except Huayna or backstabbing Asoka which I think would be pretty cheap and easy.

/e: And permanent alliances are enabled so maybe Asoka can assist in a nice space race. ;) (would imho be more fun than hammering any contender into the ground)

875 (0): I'm switching research to Monarchy as hardly anyone has it and it will be useful for trading. I hope!

890 (1): We build the Great Library.

905 (2): Chichen Itza is BIDL. Discover Monarchy and revolt to Heredity Rule. HC offers HBR plus some bucks for it. I decline. Instead I start a shopping tour myself and go for Divine Right giving something to do for our GP, but see yourself:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/Civ4ScreenShot0004.jpg

Now our techs are outdated again :lol: Ah ... I forgot something important:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/Civ4ScreenShot0005.jpg

935 (4): Start the Sistine Chapel in Nidaros just to build something :rolleyes:

950 (5): HC offers Sugar for our Cows. Sure.

995 (8): With the help of our Great Prophet we discover Divine Right. And please welcome the holy city of Islam, Birka :band: ... oh lord ... cumbaya! Our first Missionary goes to Timbuktu for the cultural battle against India. Civil Service is next in tech schedule. Negotiating with Tokugawa we get Dyes and 3gpt for Ivory.

1040 (11): Our missionary fails on his mission in Timbuktu :mad: We should plan a little bit on this. For us traders it could be very profitable with a Shrine now that we have our state religion.

1100 (15): Civil Service (I deferred it for discussion) comes in next turn. The tech leader is HC. But we lead in GNP which seams important to me :D

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg

I did some trading. Hope this will bring us forward a little. :hammer:

Forward ever, backwards never :king: (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/STR-03_AD-1100.CivWarlordsSave)

It's looking good:).

Roster:
1) Strauss
2) Pvblivs --> just played
3) karr1255
4) Bede --> UP!
5) Asperger --> on deck

With Birka being the Islam Holy City, does going for a Cultural Victory sound possible? Nidaros and Uppsala have some wonders and are capable of building more.

For cultural I think we would need a third or possibly fourth religion to spread but seems possible. That and a permanent alliance fueled space race would be my favorite victory picks.

Got it for tomorrow. Nice bit o' horsetrading, Publius :thumbsup: !

I think the Space Race allied with Asoka and with Mansa as our vassal would be fun, but can I have some boats and berzerks and trebs to go hurt Toku? Or somebody, anybody?

And I'll see what I can do about a Great Lightbulb.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR03/Str03_010.jpg

Well here it is - if we want the Great Lighthouse we will have to remove it from Asoka's hands, and I think we want it. I checked the city screens and his towns contribute zero to our trade route income, he has a resource we could use, he is a very small nation (exceeded in his smallness only by Mansa) and I think we could capture his two towns on our side of the peninsula, then send a couple-six boatloads of 'zerks, cats and axes at Delhi, capture that town, also the Holy City of Buddhism IIRC, then sign both him and Mansa into peonage and take whatever resources they have we might need. We would get a nice boost to the economy and a big run up on score and be sitting pretty to take the Japanese out of the game. And Delhi would make a nice spot for the Forbidden Palace, or even Versailles if we can do all this before Huyana builds it.

There is only one problem with that plan - actually two, no three, we have no, or not enough, boats to even consider it, we have no catapults, and we really don't have enough axes to capture one city defended by longbows, did I mention Asoka learned Feudalism? So here it is in a nutshell: One frustrated old warhorse.

So, finished Sistine Chapel in the capitol, markets in a lot of places, a harbor and a library in a couple of others. Pushed the research towards Liberalism with Paper, sold the map around to bulk up the treasury for the run through the Machinery/Optics/Philosophy line so we woould be ready to burn to Education, then Liberalism, then Astronomy, we do need to find that mythical third landmass and if it means obsoleting the Colussus, so be it. By that time we sshould have most of the infrastucture in place to deal with it. And finally trained a zerk and a catapult, still need a boat though.

Oh, and a scientist built an Academy in the capitol, if we are going for space we better bulk up. Note I did not train any Muslim missionaries, as I had better, commercial uses for the hammers at that town. Besides, Delhi has the Buddhist shrine, I can almost swear, and that religion has the widest spread of any, so why not just capture it and the Lighthouse all at once :hmm: :groucho:

Here is what the world looks like after I whored the maps around

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR03/Str03_012.jpg

Did a couple of deals with my Inca buddy, mainly to bulk up the happiness factor before we start whipping military.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR03/Str03_011.jpg

and to secure the tech needed for a strong defense at home and vassalage abroad
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR03/Str03_013.jpg

WE are doing great in all the categories that matter except one:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR03/Str03_014.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR03/Str03_009.jpg

And I get nervous when that happens, especially when Huyana, Toku and Shaka are on the other side of the strait.

We are the effective leaders in technology

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR03/Str03_015.jpg

Huyana holds a couple over our heads, but not by much

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR03/Str03_016.jpg

So let's train some troops and build some boats and show the world who is really the boss!

If we want to war I suggest doing it with Berserkers and trebs would be nice also. Too many boasts aren't necessary, 4 or 5 would probably be enough to blitz a coastal city with our UU and break the front.

Nice turns, Bede. But now I'm going to discuss your discussion :hammer::

This is absolutely why I at first wanted Strauss to exclude the Space Race. Aren't you bored of yet another overwhelming-power-victory?
Just cripple our "enemies" (Asoka, Toku afterwards) so much that they can't do anything and then, because we may not conquer the world, build the Space Ship thing. No need for negotiations. No need for decisions. Just push the military forward. This is the way most average SGs are played. The variant is just the flavour towards Domination. There are exceptions but they are through funny or extravagant story telling. Some intelligent, extravagant, even funny gameplay would be very nice. Not just the usual way. We're superior anyway. So why play like one that just can't get enough?

Well. That's the reason I'm now deciding myself against Space Race. I'm voting for a Diplomatic Victory. What do you think? What would be the best way we could play out the "traders flavour" thing? What is your opinion how to bring forward the game and not (just) our position in the game?

I already proposed to take Delhi, that's quite obvious if you only want to win the game. If this was a solo game i probably quit deciding the game is already won, so i agree with Pvblvis this is a variant game and we have to hold ourselves to the variant to keep it interesting. Problem is the variant isn't 100% clear. I didn't expect us to attack Mansa and once we did i don't understand why we shouldn't attack Asoka.

Before i play i want to hear from Strauss which way we gonna win this game:scan:

I vote with Pvblvis for Diplomatic cause that seems most difficult for me, i'm not good in diplomatic relations.

....then Astronomy, we do need to find that mythical third landmass and if it means obsoleting the Colussus, so be it.....

You can use a caravel for this. Also when we want to attack Engineering would be very nice for those powerfull trebs.

If this was a solo game i probably quit deciding the game is already won,

So would I. But we haven't won. We're traders. And what great a trader can achieve did we achieve yet? :)

I didn't expect us to attack Mansa

Maybe it was a failure to allow active warmongering. Because there was nothing special in this Mansa Musa conquest. Except for the opening of the war and some military moves that were required to win at all. But the conquest didn't have anything to do with our variant. It was just, that we were not powerful enough and "needed" expansion. Not to forget that the only strong city site we captured was Timbuktu. The rest is almost crap.

Well we can continue to conquest. But what would be the interesting, the new, the challenging, the exciting about it then? What would be the fun if this game would be played "the boring usual way" [tm] ;)?

Or to ask a direct question: What for are we guys playing succession games?

Diplomatic has my vote too. However I think trying to get a permanent alliance with Asoka would be much more interesting and difficult than crippling him like Mansa. Or a perm alliance with Tokugawa. :lol:

Or a perm alliance with Tokugawa. :lol:

:rotfl:

Well, we would have to prove this with lots of images. Else nobody ever would believe such a thing.

Diplomacy is always a good choice and to make it work we need to find and trade with the nations on the other continent, which means Astronomy.

Capturing the Great Lighthouse and that Buddhist shrine will help as well.

Making Toku a friend would be huge! And getting his UN vote wil require careful management.

The war with Mansa was necessary for two reasons: getting us out of our 5-city peninsula and preventing him from gaining too many techs and ruining our trade position.
I expected to take on Asoka eventually as well. However, he is so pathetically small that he does not pose a threat. I don't think the Great Lighthouse and the Mahabodhi are sufficient reasons to attack a trading partner.

The reason I didn't forbid offensive wars is because I expected one or maybe two to be necessary for expansion and preventing a civ running away. It was not a carte blanche to attack other civs and even trading partners for gaining a Wonder. I hoped the team signing up would stay loyal to the spirit of the game, and that is to be good traders.

We will almost certainly have more wars to fight. I don't expect Asoka and Toku living together in peace for much longer, and the same goes for Huayna and Shaka. If one of our trading partners is attacked, we must declare war on the offender. How far we want to go in that war is up for debate when the time comes.

I agree on going for the Diplomatic victory since it is in the spirit of the game.

:agree: Got it.

If one of our trading partners is attacked, we must declare war on the offender.

Yes. This is completely ok. Just want to prevent that we just take everything that is important by force in order to have an anyway easy victory. We should stick to our role a little better.

Asoka currently is "our best friend". To attack him for his Shrine and his Wonders would definitely not fit to the spirit of our game. This is not about trades but about a lot of greed that wants to be satisfied by force.

We didn't build the Lighthouse fast enough ourselves. But our friend did. Where's the problem? We actually have a holy city, but no Shrine. So we should build one and spread it, if we want the money. And not betray our friend who has already done all the work himself.

1190 AD Haithabu & Uppsala > caravels to meet 7th opponent and for the circumnavigationbonus. Walata > library (in stead of forge, is useless in this city). Citizens of Nidaros making money in stead of hammers.

1196 AD Whip caravel in Haithabu.

IBT Mansa demands Feudalism, offcause i give in, can't believe he's pleased with us....

1202 AD Get Music, worldmap and 150 gold for machinery from Asoka. Timbuktu > buddhist stupa for culture war. Whip caravel Uppsala.

1208 AD Philosophy comes in, research Education with purpose liberalism. Nidaros > market. Haithabu > forge.

IBT Suddenly we meet QIN. He's third in score but backwards in technology. Open our borders with him.

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/1974/civ4qinel7.jpg

1244 AD Huayna has researched guilds, not education. Probably he will get the great merchant fron economics later.

1262 AD Renew deal with Shaka to get 5 gold/turn extra from him. Gift Shaka Drama and he turns from cautious to pleased. Gift Qin Alphabet and we get +4 in fine relations allthough he stays cautious (he's hindu).

1268 AD We get the circumnavigationbonus. Whip Buddhist stupa in Timbuktu.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8069/civ4circumnavigationur5.jpg

1274 AD We are first to discover Education > Liberalism (7/8 turns)

1280 AD Already set five city's on university's, we need six for Oxford, a candidate is Birka that almost finishes a market. Huayna gives us 80 gold to support our queeste to liberalism.

Further everything is nice and quiet and pleased and friendly, even Toku and Huayna and Shaka.

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/1543/civ4wereldmetqinye3.jpg


save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/63149/STR-03_AD-1280.CivWarlordsSave)

Nice job to get us the circumnavigation bonus. For traders, this is a must-have :worship: Liberalism the same, next one can choose the free tech and this wilk give us a nice advance. We have to be careful thereafter that we research the right things to maintain our tech lead.

Can someone analyse what groups our opponents have formed. I think we don't wish to be forced into a war because our favorite allies (the bigger or nicer group) declared war on the less-favorite. So maybe we have to cancel some deals as well. I don't think we want the computer to throw a dice for our diplomacy future :)

What do you think?

Further everything is nice and quiet and pleased and friendly

The way the world should be:king:

So Qin is our newest trading partner. I don't expect him to sit down peacefully for the rest of the game either.

Will play after dinner.

Quin is a one of the worst backstabbers in the game, at least in vanilla. I bet he will make demands sooner or later, which I would give in to if he isn't in a leading position.

..... I bet he will make demands sooner or later, which I would give in to if he isn't in a leading position.

I gave him already Alphabet of my own free will:) When going for Diplomatic Victory i presume we have to give in to (almost) everything.

I gave him already Alphabet of my own free will:) When going for Diplomatic Victory i presume we have to give in to (almost) everything.

Not really. We don't need every vote. We do need the votes of our best friends, if the computers are split in two groups diplomatically, then probably the larger one.

Because when we gift things to worst enemies of them who we want as friends it might be not in our interest. We have to think about it and find out how everyone is related with each other

Nice job to get us the circumnavigation bonus. For traders, this is a must-have :worship:

This is irony i guess, when everything is peace zzzz and quiet you have to do something for a thrill :)

This is irony i guess, when everything is peace zzzz and quiet you have to do something for a thrill :)

No ironie but it is nice to have something to be proud about. So come on ... after all this is ... well useless but nice! :lol:

this is ... well useless but nice! :lol:

When we have to go to war with someone on another continent, it's not useless:p

When we have to go to war with someone on another continent, it's not useless:p

You warmonger you :hammer:

Yeah I know. It's good to have the bonus yourself and not the others. And if it comes to such a war it will make it easier for us

Yeah I know. It's good to have the bonus yourself and not the others. And if it comes to such a war it will make it easier for us

Not to mention we have +2 movement in total due to the UB.

Now for my very short report, not even worth uploading the pictures:

Turn 7 (1322): Liberalism comes in. I go for Astronomy as a free tech to enable trade with Qin. It obsoletes the Colossus, but we can take it. Qin can give us Fur, but we have nothing in reserve to give him:sad:.

Turn 11 (1346): Qin demands us to cancel deals with Mali. At the moment Mali is a better partner than Qin. I refuse.

Turn 12 (1352): Wang Xizhi (Great Artist) is born in Nidaros. I move him to Timbuktu. I would suggest a Great Work here to claim some more land and get control over Spices to trade to China.
---------------------------------------------

The Great Artist is standing ready in Timbuktu. It should add a lot of pressure to the Malinese culture which is preventing the city from working northern tiles, and the extra artist I hired should allow us to eventually take over control. It will almost definitely gain control over the Spices (only 35% Indian now). If we do, will Shaka's trade to us be cancelled? Or can we just trade the excess Spices to Qin?

Printing Press will come in next turn. After that, we should get the other economic techs: Guilds, Banking, Economics and Corporation. The free Great Merchant is probably going to Huayna if it hasn't already, but we still need Economics for Free Market. We should probably revolt to Free Religion, Free Market and Free Speech at the same time for the least turns of anarchy. After that, we can beeline to Mass Media rather quickly if we wish.

Dividing the other civs into groups is very hard at the moment. IIRC there is only a conflict between Qin and someone else. All the rest are Cautious, Pleased or Friendly with each other. Asoka will clearly be one of our supporters. Mali could also be bribed into voting for us. Shaka and Huayna are very Pleased towards us as well, even despite religious differences. Tokugawa is also Pleased, but this could change very quickly *if* he goes to war with Asoka in the future. Only Qin doesn't like us, but he probably won't have a lot of friends anyway.

Pvblivs is UP, with karr1255 on deck:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/78327/STR-03_AD-1370.CivWarlordsSave

Asoka will only support us as long as we have his Religion. His friendliness comes solely from this.

I've got!

- why are we creating islamic missionares? No use as long as we has no islamic shrine,
- we need one more university,
- i prefer using the great artist for nationalism.

- why are we creating islamic missionares? No use as long as we has no islamic shrine,
- we need one more university,
- i prefer using the great artist for nationalism.

- once we get to Free Religion it will give us Happy and Research bonuses, and the possibility for Islamic Monasteries which we need to get before Scientific Method
- hopefully Pvblivs can squeeze one in somewhere
- that's a possibility, but Nationalism is cheap for us now (6 turns?). Again up to Pvblivs

1376 (1): Printing Press comes in. Selecting Guilds next.

1382 (2): HC completes the Kong Miao.

1394 (4): Mansa Musa asks us to cancel deals with Quin. I don't agree because we have +4 for trade relations with Quin. I think we should not handle Mansa as our friend. Once he changes his religion he will be cautious or annoyed with us.

1400 (5): Shaka completes the Notre Dame. A Great Merchant is born in Cuzco. I gues HC has just discovered Economics...

1406 (6): We discover Guilds, next is Banking.

1424 (9): Banking is in. And now for Economics, I say! :whipped: (due in 7 turns)

1460 (15): The last 5 beakers to Economics I let to the next one so we can discuss where to go next. I gave Islam into the cultural battle. We should build enough temples to build the Mosque in Timbuktu. We already seem very successful culturally against Mansa. He is down to 62% at our border tiles. Increase the pressure!

Free Markets!!! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/65402/STR-03_AD-1460.CivWarlordsSave)

Ceterum censo: No Free Religion!

Sorry: I joined the Artist into the city. Timbuktu is such a strong site and the artist is the best chance to make something of it.

Islamic missionaries are for the Mosque in Timbuktu. 3 Temples -> One Mosque to give Timbuktu its tiles (peacefully)

Ceterum censo: No Free Religion!

Although I don't know what ceterum censo means:blush:, I changed my mind about Free Religion. We should wait with switching to it until enough other civs have changed to it that a state religion isn't worth it anymore. We should still keep on spreading Islam for Monasteries and Mosque(s).

Karr1255 is UP, with Bede on deck

EDIT: Also, what did you trade to Qin?

Got it and will still play tonight, although I'm a little bit intoxicated. That's the fastest moving SG ever. :lol:

This is fast:) :goodjob:

- you guy's don't care about Oxford,
- you don't care about Micromanaging,
- you don't ask our opponents for their money???

I micromanage as hell, but care about little else. :lol:

At least you have someone who puts everything in it's tracks, after everyone had fun warring or whipping. ;)

I micromanage as hell, but care about little else. :lol:

At least you have someone who puts everything in it's tracks, after everyone had fun warring or whipping. ;)

An equal soul:)

If we stay buddhist, and don't want to play aggressively, why not convert to Pacifism?

pre turn - Huayna already has economics, guess somebody missed that. :rolleyes: I gift banking to Asoka because we don't have a bonus for good trade with him and I'd really like to form a perm alliance with him. And just like that we have another +1 with him, total is +14 now. I don't like all the engineers because working the plain cottages gives same completion time in a lot of cities but also growth and commerce.

T1 - I finally revolt to free market and aw look at that:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Viking%20Traders%20SG/mostadvanced29.jpg

I check trades and get another +1 gold out of Shaka. Then I gift Toku drama and theology and get another +2 now were up to +11 with him. If we get a perm alliance with him, this will be a SG for the ages. :lol:

T2 - After free market our economy gets a nice boost, now running 80% at -16. Research is set to nationalism since we can get Taj Mahal for sure.

T3 - Everything looking good.

T4 - Gift music to Toku and he goes up to friendly. This is history in the making boys. :lol: (he is still so far behind in tech it's pathetic)

T5 - Quin has a quite the military, but no one is a threat to us because of our diplomatic work.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Viking%20Traders%20SG/quinarmy.jpg

T6 - 2 banks done and I build a galleon and in the capitol a grocer.

T7 - Nationalism done -> researching mil tradition for some def pacts. And I start the Hermitage in Timbuktu, it's under heavy cultural pressure.

T8 - Get ready for the craziest turn in this SG. First this happens:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Viking%20Traders%20SG/tokuwardec.jpg

What do I do now? :sad: Both are our best trading partners and the rule says we have to support our partners but who? I agree to join in the war, since Toku has much more power and forming an alliance with Toku would be the most challenging and best twist to this game imho. After I declare look at this:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Viking%20Traders%20SG/asokawarhelp.jpg

:lol:

After I refuse, I try to sue for peace with Asoka and include peace with Toku, which doesn't work and I can't throw in techs. However he agrees to cease fire between us just like that on the same turn. Well, that was quite the phony war.
I know that this was absolutely retarded, but I thought I HAD to accept if Toku asks me to join. Well I guess if we're already at war I should have attacked, but I just thought this would be too easy and just put a bad taste in my mouth because he was THE trading partner. In a nutshell our relations with Asoka took a big hit (+5 and pleased now) and with Toku they're great (+12). No gain but a really stupid situation, sorry guys. :sad:



T9 - Taj Mahal due in 16 turns and our economy is actually getting better. No trade routes with India but we are running 80% at -3.

T10 - zzz

T11 - Huayna starts a golden age but he's still far behind in tech.

T12 - Sign open borders with Asoka. And Toku is at war with Mansa now too. :crazyeye:

T13 - zzz

T14 - Trade rice to Quin for fur.

T15 - Mil tradition in -> researching gunpowder. Great scientist is born in our capitol and I let him rest there to discuss his use.


I screwed up the turncount somewhere. Well the next player will get a free turn, I told you that I'm a little drunk. :lol:

Now we could bribe Toku to make peace with Mansa and Asoka and get a def pact with him asap. The longer they hold the better the relations get. Also the use for the GS needs to be discussed.
I hope that I didn't totally screw up, but I just didn't want to take the holy city from Asoka. It would have been just too easy and still felt lika a backstab.

Boy does this come around fast.

Toku needs to get out of his war with Mansa before we can do anything with a defensive pact leading to a permanent alliance. As I understand the vanilla version it take forty turns of either joint warfare or a defensive pact to get a permanent alliance, in addition to some other factors (realtive strength being one of them) Has it changed in Warlords?

Heading down the diplomatic path requires an assessment of who the oppnent is going to be, then trying to manage around that. It is even possible to help determine who the opponent is going to be with a little judicious trimming of the opposition. The most favorable outcome arrives when you can forge a friendship with the third and fourth most populous nations by trimming the fifth and sixth down to neglible size. You need 61% of the total vote, determined by population and it is safest to have at least 30% native while your two allies make up the additional needed 31%.

So who do we cultivate and who do we spurn, and who is the most likely opponent?

I'll pick Huyana as the strongest candidate for that position right now. And Toku and Quin, or Toku and Shaka would make good choices for the bedfellows, so perhaps some proselytizing of Islam to the Japanese and the Zulu and we curry favor with Quin through trade.

And favored civics play a major role here as well. The risk is that our two bedfellows will have favored civics in competing portions of the tree. Hereditary Rule and Police State, for example. So One Must Choose Wisely.

And I got it for tomorrow night.

The rule is: Who attacks our trading partner is attacked by us. To me this implies: We don't agree to attack one of our trading partners. If Toku attacked Asoka we would have to attack Toku (and make him our vassal, else this would be not winnable) This was really the :smoke: part of your after all nice turnset. And I'm sure it screwed our position up a bit.

BTW: I wrote that HC has Economics already. We discovered it for Free Markets and not for the Merchant though he would've been nice.

We certainly should have declared on Toku..Do we want a diplomatic victory with a permanent alliance with Toku?? That would indeed be a real achievement.
We are going to make Toku a diplomatic winner? But his favorite civic is mercantilism while we are traders and are not even allowed to take mercantilism.
Imo we can't be traders and have an alliance with Toku and go for diplomatic victory. Best would be imo to repair our mistake against Asoka and declare on Toku.

Favorite civics:
Asoka: Free Religion,
Huayna: Hereditary Rule,
Mansa: Free Market,
Qin: Bureaucracy,
Shaka: Police State,
Toku: Mercantilism

Agree on this. Toku attacked our trading partner. If and only if they're still at war we should attack Toku. Nice side-effect: Mutual struggle with Asoka.

It is not required that we kill Toku. If he's weak enough he can as well capitulate giving us his votes for diplomatic victory anyway...

Declaring on Asoka can't be undone, our relations are damaged severely :sad:

I knew the trading partner variant, however Toku was a good partner too and asked first. That's why I thought it would have been against the rules to decline one of our partners help in the first place. :sad:

I still think we should just stick with Toku now, we already have +12 no - and friendly relations. After a def pact we could get the alliance without the civic bonus. But it's probably better I don't interfere in these diplomatic decisions anymore. :lol:

/e:
The rule is: Who attacks our trading partner is attacked by us. To me this implies: We don't agree to attack one of our trading partners.

But that means we can't attack our help either of them. See my confusion?

How did Asoka achieve such iconic status as a trading partner?

At the end of my last turnset but one we had a resource deal and 9 commerce from him in trade routes. At the end of my last turnset we had 0 commerce in trade routes and only the ongoing resource deal, while we had over 10 commerce from Toku. So the situation is fluid...

So we must be flexible to keep pace with the situation, and go where the money is. We are traders after all.

And if I had to pick a bosom buddy trade partner it would not be Asoka just based on trade route income even before the war. Both Shaka and Toku contributed more to our coffers than Asoka.

I'll look at the other saves later, but I don't think my conclusion will change:

Attacking Toku will hurt our trading position more than the phoney war with Asoka ever did.

Now if the team consensus is that Toku deserves a little smack down I will try and set it up.

But that means we can't attack our help either of them. See my confusion?

It's very simple:
1. If >anyone< asks us to attack our trading partner we always decline, because if he's the one who attacks, this automatically collides with 2.
2. If >anyone< attacks our trading partner (it may be the same guy from 1, or even our trading partner who attacks the guy himself (and this one is our trading partner), we attack the aggressor.
3. The aggressor is the one who actually declares the war.

There is no conflict, or am I wrong? Furthermore we had those good relations with the defender (Asoka) before we have now with Toku (the aggressor). It is our failure. So we should not betray the faithful (Asoka) and join the betrayer. We have to deal with it.

Edit: Bede: The question is, do we have trade deals with Asoka when Toku asks us to wipe him out? What can be done then is to press F4 and check it. If Asoka is not our trading partner, ok, them I am wrong. If yes, we broke our main variant.

The trade route income definitely speaks for Toku. We get 0 from Asoka and +35 after bonuses from Toku. By those numbers it's pretty clear and we have good relations with him. Maybe the "war" with Asoka was a big mistake (variant confusion :blush:) but now shattering the relations with Toku too just doesn't help us imo.

Ok. If it is so, that we had hardly any trades compared with Toku, I agree.

Please stick to the variant. What else are we playing this for, I wonder? :)

On another note:

Mansa declared war on Toku now so we should declare on Mansa right?

/e: From a trading standpoint Toku was the better partner. Asoka just had a bigger +we care for our brothers of the faith. The aggressor fact does make sense though.

I agree with Pvblvis, according to the variant we are obliged to declare on Toku, no matter if he's a great trading partner or not, just because Asoka was a tradingpartner of us. That we declared on Asoka wasn't against the variant, that we did not declare on Toku was against it, but, allthough a little late, we can still do our duty.

But let Strauss decide what to do

This kind of mistakes makes the game a bit more exciting, not?:)

Right, karr. If we had trades with Toku then... Why did we miss it?

And yes, we're learning to stick to our principles. It wouldn't be the worst to have Mansa destroyed for attacking Toku and in return making Toku capitulate to us for his war against Asoka.

Though it could hurt our relations with other isles and make our Diplomatic victory plans impossible. Not easy, is it? :rolleyes:

But if we declare on Toku we can't declare on Mansa anymore this wouldn't make sense.

Hmmm... this is a bit of a mess. Tokugawa attacks Asoka, we join Toku, then immediately sign a cease-fire and now we should attack Tokugawa:crazyeye:

Two things went wrong here:
1) We should have attacked Tokugawa instead of Asoka in the first place. Even though Toku brings in more money than Asoka, he was still the agressor and should have been punished.
2) Once we declared on Asoka, we should have actually joined the fight. Immediately signing a cease-fire after a declaration of war is somewhat lame IMO.

However, the damage has been done already and I don't think we should declare war on Toku. Attacking him will only make things worse. We should now try to negotiate peace between the both of them as quickly as possible.

Mansa, however, is both an agressor and doesn't have anything substantial to offer us as trading partner. He should be punished. Don't you just love politics?:mischief:

I don't think we should declare war on Toku. Attacking him will only make things worse. We should now try to negotiate peace between the both of them as quickly as possible.

?? I don't get this. According to the variant we are obliged to declare on Toku, no matter if it's good or bad for us.

Mansa, however, is both an agressor and doesn't have anything substantial to offer us as trading partner. He should be punished. Don't you just love politics?:mischief:

Toku started the war against Asoka. So we should help Asoka which we didn't. Then Asoka asks Mansa to help him (what we already were supposed to do). In fact the little tiny Mansa is doing our job and now we want punish Mansa for this???? If we had declared war on Toku immediately, Mansa should have joined us.

Imo we should declare on Toku immediately, (and not on Mansa), if you want to keep the variant intact.

At this point I would bribe Toku into peace with both, which he will do for some old techs and go on from there. If we declare on Toku now we are back to crippling everyone and win the game as usual. That's why I took nothing from Asoka in the first place.

If Toku is the defined aggressor there's no reason to attack Mansa because Mansa was doing our job, right.

I would restart. That means: Get all into peace. And the next one attacking a trade partner is attacked.

Another thing: Think about who we want as trading partners. As you see it's not that easy if we just trade with everyone, is it? :)

Exactly my thought. I screwed the variant up and I'm sorry. But since Toku will make peace with everyone, my vote goes to this option and then if anyone is the aggressor against a trading partner attack him.

My thoughts on our trading partners:

Asoka: relations are in an ok shape he doesn't give us much in form of trade routes. However he's easy to please so keep him as long as he doesn't bothers us.

Toku: Best partner at this moment and best trade route income. He is a crazy guy but maybe this works out. I'd like to keep him because it's most challenging.

Qin: A backstabber but it looks good now. His trade routes are decent but he wouldn't be a big loss. His military is mainly defensive too.
Huayna: He might be the strongest rival but he gives great trade route income. BUT he would probably be our rival in the diplo vote so no long term relationship here.

Shaka: Doesn't add much and is soo far behind in tech. Maybe if we can convince him to vote for us instead of Huayna that would be great. Otherwise maybe even a military threat.

Mansa: We screwed him and he still likes us. No real threat more like a little pet but if he becomes annoying I'd leave him at the gas station. :lol:

If Quin is a backstabber we might soon be at war against him anyway, even if he would not backstab us... Same with Toku. We may like him, but if he's impatient with his sword we are at war one day.

Alright. We should bring the world back into peace. It's the most honorable thing to do at the moment since we can't agree on who should be punished.

As for trading partners, I agree with Pvblivs. If we want Tokugawa as our friend, we need to get rid of his enemies as trading partners, otherwise we will be at war sooner rather than later. This would mean dumping Asoka and Mansa.

As far as diplomacy goes Mansa and Asoka are non entities. Neither one large enough now or potentially to have a major impact in the voting. They could be useful as filler voters, maybe.

I see two potential opponents: Huyana and Qin. This does not mean we have to write them off as friends, it just means we don't have to worry about "You traded with our worst enemy" penalties.

That leaves Shaka and Toku as the swingers. Ouch.

Best possible outcome would be to have Huyana as our opponent in the vote. Then we can leverage the naturally agressive Toku and Shaka as his natural enemies.

And I think the war with Asoka was managed as well as it could be. Unfortunate we had both of them as trading partners when it broke out. The next obvious step is to leverage our position to make Toku our peaceful Defensive Pact partner.

The variant still obliges us to declare on Toku but my impression is everybody just wants to go for diplo and cancel the variant.

On long term Toku isn't a good trading partner cause his favorite civic is mercantilism.

The variant still obliges us to declare on Toku but my impression is everybody just wants to go for diplo and cancel the variant.


We aren't cancelling the variant at all. I'm just flexing it to this situation to prevent complete chaos.

I like complete chaos :D

Everybody wants to make profit of the fact that karr didn't declare on Toku, even make him our biggest trade partner.

You can't say that we are not canceling the variant and at the same time refusing to declare on Toku. The variant says that Toku gets a declaration of war. Karr's 'mistake' then only give us a few negative diplo points from Asoka.

I have always thought that Realpolitik trumped the rules....though honor trumps all.

If honor demands a declaration on Toku then I shall have at it and deliver him a chastisement forthwith.

You can't say that we are not canceling the variant and at the same time refusing to declare on Toku.

Cancelling the variant would mean that we would dump it for the rest of the game. I too would have wished karr to declare war on Toku in the first place, but now the best thing to do is end this situation quickly. I can live with it, though in the next STR-games I will be less complying with people breaking variants. It happened in STR-01 as well and it is highly annoying, especially when it breaks up the team like this.

I have always thought that Realpolitik trumped the rules....though honor trumps all.

If honor demands a declaration on Toku then I shall have at it and deliver him a chastisement forthwith.

That's language i can understand. Let's thriumph or fall in honor:clap:

(my most memorable sg was the only one i lost..)

Alright I destroyed the game, nobody ever made a worse decision in a SG. :rolleyes: If everybody is so bothered by my screwup regarding the variant, just replay the turns already or move on.

Alright I destroyed the game, nobody ever made a worse decision in a SG. :rolleyes: If everybody is so bothered by my screwup regarding the variant, just replay the turns already or move on.

You didn't destroy it, we can still declare on Toku and what's left is a little diplomatic damage you caused to our relation with Asoka.

Well, here's the plan. Declare on Toku, remove his forces from India and Mali then drag him to make peace with everybody. I think that should be satisfactory to all, except maybe Toku.

God, I just hope somebody ****s up bigtime now and lose our capitol or something :lol:.

And no reloading guys. ;)

Okay, it is decision time:

1) I have a loose scientist running around, and an academy in Uppsalla would gice us two cities turning out over 100bpt at 80% science, use him?

2) In a series of deals with Huyana, who is now Friendly BTW, I acquired Constitution, so change civics to Representation and Caste System, as we are now past the point where whipping makes sense in our core towns? We will get a real boost from Representation and Caste at the food heavy towns in the west and can start churning Merchants for Trade Missions to China or to balance the food and commerce output at home.

I think I just answered my own question #2 as we have eight turns to the Taj and then ten turns of GA to get through before anarchy would be attractive anyway, so it is something for the next player to think about, but question #1 still stands.

War has not started with Toku yet as I am still moving into position to deal him some damage.

Okay, it is decision time:

1) I have a loose scientist running around, and an academy in Uppsalla would gice us two cities turning out over 100bpt at 80% science, use him?


That sounds attractive. It's more useful to speed up all future techs by one or two turns than speeding up one tech a lot of turns now.

Looks good everywhere, as we are spinning gold out of the air at a wonderful rate, running research towards the UN. But somebody has to deal with the bad boy on the continent, teach him a little lesson, though it looks like the Malinese and the Indians are in fact holding their own.

I am tempted to merely extort everyone into peaceful relations, but then I and reminded that I need to have some skin in the game if I am going to so this with honor.....so the troops start the long march across Mali to Osaka.

While that is going on I get command of our errant caravels and send two galleons up the Indian Mail coast line. To pick up the survivors of the battle of Osaka and move them forward to Tokyo should that become necessary.

During the march Huyana coems along and demands Education. I comply for the diplomatic benefit (keep your friends close and your enemies closer being the operative principle here), then cut him this deal for Constitution as it is a precursor to Corporation (surely a desired knowledge) and the Emancipation and Universal Suffrage techs (also desired I believe), if only for Statue of Liberty.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR03/Str03_018.jpg

Once all is in place on the north border of Mali I cancel the deals with Toku and declare war.

Facing off against a light opposition, in numbers anyway,

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR03/Str03_021.jpg

with heavy attackong forces but rather thin on the seige engines,

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR03/Str03_022.jpg

so it takes a couple rounds of bombardment to get the job done, but done it is, soon enough, and the losses rather light

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR03/Str03_025.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR03/Str03_026.jpg

Asoka comes seeking our help with this empire development so of course I comply

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/STR03/Str03_023.jpg

And from then forward it is but a waiti