I know there are some old thread about this, but I wanna start fresh on the topic. Since I love dark elves and drow I want this civ to be more finished and playable. And since this is a Dark Fantasy setting we can have even more fun with how these darker forms of elves are implemented into the mod.

This is how I see/want dark elves to be in FfH.

Society
Ruled almost entirely by females, the females are thought of as the stronger gender and are respected as such by the males. Perhaps you could call it a Matriarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy). (But maybe not so much the mother. Parents are not a strong influence for a Svartalf) Every individual of the Dark Elven race is very egoistic and competetive though and their whole life is about self-improvement to become better then the others of their race and other races. The Svartalfar society is a pure survival of the fittest society where each individual care for himself or perish. It's frowned upon to even ask for help from another. Maybe this is why their armies has such bad organization? Their archers has always been good though. On the other hand, more individual troops, like assasins etc, excell at what they do, and are probably some of the best in the world at what they do.

Dark Elves has grown attached to the darkness and coldness of the world and they love the night. They are still forest dwellers, the forests they are still allowed to enter that is. Forests somehow seem to be corrupted by their newfound attachment to the death mana though, but they are not late to exploit it.
[I'm thinking a new forest type could be added, Dark Forest that only begin to grow and transform from forests within the Svartalfar nation, an ancient version of it could also be added. The growth could be increased with Fellowship of Leaves (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Fellowship_of_Leaves_%28Religion%29) state religion. It could work as a normal forest /ancient forest but also give a negative defense bonus to anyone but the Svartalfar]

Tainted alliance
An Idea could be that the svartalfar has become masters of another race. What race you say? Well I was thinking Trolls or something similar. Unlike Warcraft, where trolls look and feel like a part of the Orcish Race, I think it would be cool if they were ruled by the svarfalfar. The Svartalfar purely using them as slaves and soldiers of course. But maybe the trolls feel like part of the Svartalfar. Instead as portraying Trolls as intelligent shamanic beings as in Warcraft, they should have what Svartalfars lack. As the Svartalfars are more agile, quick and intelligent like their Ljosalfar cousins the Trolls should be more brutal with strenght and toughness being their primary traits. Maybe looking something like a blend between Orcs and the Trolls from LotR.

Buildings
They should have some unique buildings of course. How about something like these:

School of Dark Arts - Gives experience to trained mage units? Or a free promotion to all units trained in this city perhaps.

Chill of the Forests - National wonder that makes it possible to train Dark Treants in this city. Not sure if this fits the theme of the mod and Im not happy with the name either.

I'll post more ideas in this thread once I think of more, for the moment I'll let it be discussed for a bit first.

Since I love dark elves and drow...
Ruled almost entirely by females, the females are thought of as the stronger gender and are respected as such by the males.
You into some kinky sht!:eek:

You into some kinky sht!:eek:

Yeah I like to be dominated by big-breasted women, so? :p

i like the idea... more femal units for sureshot :)

I'm thinking a new forest type could be added, Dark Forest that only begin to grow and transform from forests within the Svartalfar nation, an ancient version of it could also be added. The growth could be increased with Fellowship of Leaves state religion. It could work as a normal forest /ancient forest but also give a negative defense bonus to anyone but the Svartalfar

Why stop there? Why not give it to all evil civs who follow the Fellowship, but the Svart's get additional bonuses from it, like the Ljosalfar get from Ancient Forest?

As for combat, I see the Svartalfar as the stealth masters of FfH, striking out from who-knows-where, ambushing lone units who wander too far into their domain, then quietly slipping back to the darkness whence they came. Perhaps Svartalfar recon units could get a bonus for attacking from an enemy's fog of war. Like this:

--ooo
oOOOo
oOXOo
oO^Oo
--oYo
X=Enemy Unit
Y=Svartalfar Assassin
o=terrain invisible to X
O=terrain visible to X


It would give them a nice tactical use for the Hidden trait, and a reason not to trade maps with the enemy.

the Sidar are the stealth masters, from what ive read the Svartalfar are the necromancers of the game (with some stealth as well, having the Hidden trait on their leader, but the Sidar are the shades).

female dominated and necromancers

now if only i could time travel to the shadow phase

Hmm, you have a point there.
But I always thought of the Sidar as being reclusive and uncaring about the affairs of creation, only interfering to fulfil their own obscure agenda, somewhat like the nobodies in the Kingdom Hearts series. In essence, they would be defensively stealthy.

On the other hand, the Svartalfar, who worship the god of thieves and assassins, stalk the dark forests of the world, and train in the ways of swift, painful death (or slow, sadistic torture), would be offensively stealthy.

We already have plenty of necromancers, and for some reason, I can't picture the Sidar as warlike or capable of using stealth offensively. Maybe it's because they worship Arawn or something. :p

the Sidar are the stealth masters, from what ive read the Svartalfar are the necromancers of the game (with some stealth as well, having the Hidden trait on their leader, but the Sidar are the shades).

female dominated and necromancers

now if only i could time travel to the shadow phase

The 2 main civ mechanics for Shadow are both included in 0.16 in a limited fashion, Invisibility and Hidden Nationality. Just as you said the Sidar are intended to showcase the invisible options and permutations. The Svartalfar are about other aspects of deception, hidden nationality, disguise, illusion, etc. No idea what disguise and illusion mean yet, but thats the piece of the design pie that has been allocated to them.

In FfH lore the svartalfar are matriarchal, they are ruled by a queen just as the ljosalfar are. But they differ from the drow in that they arent an underground race (there is some discussion here because its possible they might have went underground during the age of ice, i havent decided yet and i never chronicled that int he game), and they arent inherently bloodthirsty.

Think of the difference between good faeries (dancing, mystical, wise) and bad faeries (mischievious, troublesome, clever) and you have what the ljosalfar and the svartalfar were during the age of magic. Two sides of the same coin that were alike in more ways than they were different. Now subject both sides to the death of their patron diety, a bloody cival war that almost completly killed both sides and a 400 year ice age. You end up with those same faeries all grown up, toughened by what they have had to do to survive and more alike in personality to men then the elves of former ages.

But still a fey heart beats in them. The ljosalfar hold special meaning for the forests and songs of their ancestors, and the svartalfar pranks has turned into guile and cunning.

I'd like to see the Svartalfar have a more 'faerie' touch than regular elves - unable to work cold iron, instead using weapons shaped from magical wood.

First, if possible, all units requiring Iron or better might get a slight bonus against Svartalfar units (10% or so).

This weakness would also prevent them from going beyond Smelting on the metal tech path, but I'm thinking they could get one or a few replacement techs for those wooden weapons - say:

Wood Shaping
Requires crafting and hunting, shared with the Ljosalfar, allows improvements in forests.

Woodsinging (A better name might be in order.)
Requires Drama and Wood Shaping, shared with the Ljosalfar, allows 3-strength Woodsman II "Woodsinger" units that can sacrifice themselves to either create a new forest or to upgrade a specific forest, from new to regular or regular to ancient.

Witchwood
Unique tech for the Svartalfar, requires Woodsinging, Poisons and Necromancy.
Witchwood resources with +2:hammers: randomly spawn in (ancient) forests within their borders. (Or are just revealed with the tech, sort of like pearls.)

This tech and the resource allow Blackguards (or somesuch, Maceman replacements) and is required for all high-tier Svartalfar melee units. These units also deal +1 damage with each attack against living units.

The 2 main civ mechanics for Shadow are both included in 0.16 in a limited fashion, Invisibility and Hidden Nationality. Just as you said the Sidar are intended to showcase the invisible options and permutations. The Svartalfar are about other aspects of deception, hidden nationality, disguise, illusion, etc. No idea what disguise and illusion mean yet, but thats the piece of the design pie that has been allocated to them.

In FfH lore the svartalfar are matriarchal, they are ruled by a queen just as the ljosalfar are. But they differ from the drow in that they arent an underground race (there is some discussion here because its possible they might have went underground during the age of ice, i havent decided yet and i never chronicled that int he game), and they arent inherently bloodthirsty.

Think of the difference between good faeries (dancing, mystical, wise) and bad faeries (mischievious, troublesome, clever) and you have what the ljosalfar and the svartalfar were during the age of magic. Two sides of the same coin that were alike in more ways than they were different. Now subject both sides to the death of their patron diety, a bloody cival war that almost completly killed both sides and a 400 year ice age. You end up with those same faeries all grown up, toughened by what they have had to do to survive and more alike in personality to men then the elves of former ages.

But still a fey heart beats in them. The ljosalfar hold special meaning for the forests and songs of their ancestors, and the svartalfar pranks has turned into guile and cunning.
any chance some of their units could be given invisibility now just for fun? lol

and you don't mention necromancy much but i distinctly remember imagining that there was going to be banshees for the svartalfar...

any chance some of their units could be given invisibility now just for fun? lol

and you don't mention necromancy much but i distinctly remember imagining that there was going to be banshees for the svartalfar...

Yeah definitly. This is just high level deisgn stuff, actual specific unit functions can cover whatever we feel works. So a death magic banshee or an invisible assassin could all be good svartalfar units.

It's all so very exciting!
-Qes

It's all so very exciting!
-Qes

Yeah, I wish we could implement as fast as we can design. I have this final game in my head that I cant wait to play, and it keeps getting improved as people submit ideas, we keeping marching steadily towards reaching it but its a long road.

and you don't mention necromancy much but i distinctly remember imagining that there was going to be banshees for the svartalfar...

I mentioned the Banshees as examples of twisted faeries, for that is what they in fact are in Irish Folklore - faeries whose mission in "life" is to foretell deaths in specific families. They are not, however, ghosts, ghouls, zombies or undead (rather, immortals), although I can see how the mistake is easy to make.

in D&D Banshees are the lich equivalent for elven females, or sometimes female elven spirits gone mad.

Ah, well, there's the explanation. I've never played D&D, so I only know them as faerie bearers of ill news.

in d&d they can 'keen' or 'wail' which kills anything nearby instantly (they get to make a wil save heh)

in d&d they can 'keen' or 'wail' which kills anything nearby instantly (they get to make a wil save heh)

SOMEONE's a huge ubernerd.
-Qes

EDIT: OH wait, i think its me.

Just dont make the svartalfar a bunch of soft but creepy fairies... This is a DARK fantasy setting. Even in regular fantasy settings they are usually pretty evil. I want them to be really EVIL! Chaotic Evil, based on them being egoistic and greedy. (IMO)

Dont make them fairies that like to pull creepy pranks. I want them to stab you in the back before you even saw them coming, and then just laugh about it. (With big boobies!)

Just dont make the svartalfar a bunch of soft but creepy fairies... This is a DARK fantasy setting. Even in regular fantasy settings they are usually pretty evil. I want them to be really EVIL! Chaotic Evil, based on them being egoistic and greedy. (IMO)

Dont make them fairies that like to pull creepy pranks. I want them to stab you in the back before you even saw them coming, and then just laugh about it. (With big boobies!)

Yeah, I dont want Forest Imps for Dark Elves. Lest we devolve into 8-bit humor. I know, I know, we all want to be Garland. But no.
-Qes

I want them to be really EVIL! Chaotic Evil, based on them being egoistic and greedy. (IMO)
I'd rather vote for Lawful Evil and translate "greedy" into "ambitious" ;)
Anyway, I really can't wait to have those playable... with the tons of ideas that keep accumulating in these threads, I'm sure Shadow will be a dream (or maybe a nightmare) come true ! :goodjob:

Since they are elves I would prefer the more elegant and scheming lawful evil instead of the blunt chaotic evil. Imo CE is something for wild orcs, not for cunning elves. CE isn't "more evil" than LE anyway.

And on the level of evilness: making them as evil as the dark elves in Warhammer should be sufficient ;)

Seems like most of the evil Civs are chaotic. It fits the FfH theme, but perhaps having another Lawful Evil Civ to balance things wouldn't be a bad idea.

Just dont make the svartalfar a bunch of soft but creepy fairies... This is a DARK fantasy setting. Even in regular fantasy settings they are usually pretty evil. I want them to be really EVIL! Chaotic Evil, based on them being egoistic and greedy. (IMO)

Dont make them fairies that like to pull creepy pranks. I want them to stab you in the back before you even saw them coming, and then just laugh about it. (With big boobies!)
and big whips.

drow are neutral evil and chaotic evil in d&d generally, they don't often respect law

I'd think their oppressive matriarchal government might be considered Lawful Evil.

its actually quite easy to be oppressive when youre chaotic

but my information on their alignments is from d&d sources, they were originally considered chaotic evil and im not sure when, but theres been talk about them shifting towards neutral evil

The appropriate category in my mind is cat evil. Selfish, cruel, prone to play games with their prey, sleek, efficient, elegant, glamorous. Deceptive and able to play along when it suits them.

Cat evil, eh? I like it. I'll add it to my list of other non-standard alignments: neutral hungry, lawful stupid, chaotic neutral crazy, etc.

The appropriate category in my mind is cat evil. Selfish, cruel, prone to play games with their prey, sleek, efficient, elegant, glamorous. Deceptive and able to play along when it suits them.
I believe the term is "sadistic." And yes, that suits them very well. ;)

The appropriate category in my mind is cat evil. Selfish, cruel, prone to play games with their prey, sleek, efficient, elegant, glamorous. Deceptive and able to play along when it suits them.
I'm with this 100%.

You cat haters!
We of the kitten continuum know better!

Cats are not evil, just self reliant, they need not your cowardly whining and moaning for "thats not fair" or "Hey, stop stealing my soul" or "Why do only our homes and children burn?"

Cats are grace and ellegance, not evil. :P
-Qes

Nice try. Cats are venomous little bastards with all the scruples of a demon posessed nail gun. 'Evil' doesn't come close enough. Sanctimonious, malicious, capricious, they eat lasagne and hate mondays. I mean, come on! Leave Odie alone!

Nice try. Cats are venomous little bastards with all the scruples of a demon posessed nail gun. 'Evil' doesn't come close enough. Sanctimonious, malicious, capricious, they eat lasagne and hate mondays. I mean, come on! Leave Odie alone!

Are you telling me you DONT like lasagne and LIKE mondays?

Besides, what everyone confuses as "evil" is really apathy. We humans make the mistake of thinking that cats "give a crap". You have to endear yourself to a cat, then they'll be "evil" FOR you.
-Qes

Cats are evil, but I still love them. But I've also said I love Dark Elfs. And cat-evil is the perfect way of thinking of how I see the Dark Elves.

EDIT: Also, a Panther riding Dark Elf would be cool.

Cats are evil, but I still love them. But I've also said I love Dark Elfs. And cat-evil is the perfect way of thinking of how I see the Dark Elves.

EDIT: Also, a Panther riding Dark Elf would be cool.

Im a bad bad person. When I read this my mind accidently inserted "a" into your sentance after the word riding. Stupid TV! Warped my brain to evil.
-Qes

EDIT: Also, a Panther riding Dark Elf would be cool.
I'm gonna disregard QES's last post... :p

What if, just like Clan of Embers Goblins do with wolves, a Dark Elven Scout when defeating a Panther, turn into a Panther Cavalry unit. Since defeating panthers are harder then defeating wolves, it could be a better unit. Or they could have an inate +% vs panthers.

Panther's and dark and svelt, I'll grant, but I think a noble (in their own eyes) would just look silly trying to hang on to a panther.
But, maybe they could upgrade to hunter after beating a panther? Or have a panther pulled chariot.

Give me a panther archer and I'll be happy. Dark elves are supposed to be smaller than people, after all, if not so small as a goblin.

Edit: and what about Driders?

Panther's and dark and svelt, I'll grant, but I think a noble (in their own eyes) would just look silly trying to hang on to a panther.
But, maybe they could upgrade to hunter after beating a panther? Or have a panther pulled chariot.

Should not also the dark elves be ...dark and svelt? i mean, they're svart.

Ok, so essentially want to say Sveltalfar. Still, i like the idea of the panther cavalry.
-Qes

Panther's and dark and svelt, I'll grant, but I think a noble (in their own eyes) would just look silly trying to hang on to a panther.
But, maybe they could upgrade to hunter after beating a panther? Or have a panther pulled chariot.
Well, I dont consider the FfH panthers to be real-life size, but more larger like a horse or so in scale (maybe longer but lower).

Think the Huntress' from Warcraft 3.

http://www.battle.net/war3/images/nightelf/units/animations/huntress.gif

So, Dire Panthers.

Im cool with that. But it best still be svelt.
..

For the Sveltalfar.

:shifty:
-Qes

So, Dire Panthers.

Im cool with that. But it best still be svelt.
..

For the Sveltalfar.

:shifty:
-Qes

Hehe, since Svartalfar basically means black elves in swedish. Sveltalfar would mean starving elves. :p

Are you telling me you DONT like lasagne and LIKE mondays?

Besides, what everyone confuses as "evil" is really apathy. We humans make the mistake of thinking that cats "give a crap". You have to endear yourself to a cat, then they'll be "evil" FOR you.
-Qes

I'm actually fairly ambivalent about lasagne and mondays. Both have their good points and both have their downfalls. To have an extreme opinion on either can only be ascribed to feline fundamental extremism. The only good thing about cats, was that we have a bunch of feral ones hiding in the nether regions of our backyard and they scare everything else away.

I'm actually fairly ambivalent about lasagne and mondays. Both have their good points and both have their downfalls. To have an extreme opinion on either can only be ascribed to feline fundamental extremism. The only good thing about cats, was that we have a bunch of feral ones hiding in the nether regions of our backyard and they scare everything else away.

Are you accusing me of being a felino-facist?
Look, its simple. There isnt any "good" or "evil". There is only opportunity and fur. Anything beyond that is just the masses inventing morality to try and control what they feel powerless (and rightly so) to prevent.

Catocracy is the future, let us embrase this joyus concept!
-Qes

Cats may not understand good and evil, but this will not save them when Operation: Free-Odie-from-the-clutches-of-the-Fiend comes to a succesful conclusion. Not believing in something plays as little a role in invalidating it as having faith validates a concept.

Also: Leave Odie alone! He's just a dumb ol' dog! He doesn't mean any harm!

Cats may not understand good and evil, but this will not save them when Operation: Free-Odie-from-the-clutches-of-the-Fiend comes to a succesful conclusion. Not believing in something plays as little a role in invalidating it as having faith validates a concept.

Also: Leave Odie alone! He's just a dumb ol' dog! He doesn't mean any harm!

You're mistaken, 'tis the people who understand neither good, nor evil.

You're mistaken, 'tis the people who understand neither good, nor evil.

Does this mean you disagree with the feline-miscegenist Qes's stance on the nonexistence of good and evil in favour of the heretical dualism known as 'opportunity and fur'? Think very carefully about your answer; the stake awaits those who willfully blaspheme!

If, on the other hand, you are attempting to engage me on mankind's failures and flaws, then I accept your premise that good and evil are concepts poorly understood (if they are understood at all) by the peasantry at large!

Leading of course, very nicely to the message of hope contained within this pamphlet. Do you ache with sadness at the inequality in the world?

Accept the Octopus Overlords into your heart, and replace the void born of ignorance and despair with the joy of certainty and despair! Rejoice in the knowledge that when Cthulhu comes, cat lovers and cat haters will be consumed in his rapacious maw without any discrimination! Peace at last! Peace at last!

And we will all go together when we go!
What a comforting fact that is to know.
Universal bereavement,
An inspiring achievement!
For we all will go together when we go.

- Tom Lehrer, We will all go together

Why does always QES and his merrymen bring each thread he enters into an entirely new direction? :p

Why does always QES and his merrymen bring each thread he enters into an entirely new direction? :p

He has to do something during his few minutes of hoolaginism :)

Why does always QES and his merrymen bring each thread he enters into an entirely new direction? :p

It is a tennant of Catacracy to preach the wonders and benefits of Cat's all encompassing love and contemptuousness. We are all one, under the watchful lazy gaze of Cats, you see. And so when others speak blashpemous slander about the true nature of the universe, I must puff out my fur and hiss and spit.
-Qes

So, is FFH2 going to have a cat religion now?

or perhapes, a feline civ?

(QES's paragon of cat religion civ, perhapes?)

I'm don't seem to have the option of picking them in setup. Is there any reason for this?

Yes, they aren't done yet. They may show up as enemies if you put random civ, but Svart and a few others are still in the design stage.

So, is FFH2 going to have a cat religion now?

or perhapes, a feline civ?

(QES's paragon of cat religion civ, perhapes?)

HA, If the Dev team wanted to add a cat-religion, that'd be hella cooll, but im working the concept of pargonity right now, not trying to invent new religions. Still, SOUNDS cool to me.
-Qes

So, is FFH2 going to have a cat religion now?

or perhapes, a feline civ?

(QES's paragon of cat religion civ, perhapes?)

Cats are covered under the Ashen Veil.

Which probably explains why the Veil and the Fish Worshippers (yes, I am aware that an Octopus is not, technically, a fish) don't get on too well, despite both being less-than-cute.

Well, that and my Octopus Overlords like to drown kittens for s**ts and giggles...

That's why they're only neutral-evil rather than evil-evil.

Bah, you infidels will suffer the wrath of the mighty enlioned legions of ferocious felines. When the calling of the greatest of all cats comes, you will answer or be swept aside. THE end is indeed nigh! Infidels, weep as the swath of righeous claw and fur comes to claim your hethen souls! Seek pennance now! That the mighty eyes of the Catinuum finds you worthy of further existance!
REPENT! Before the tail flicks you into the gaping maw of judgement! For the Catinuum is merciful to those whom give of themselves, and will play endlessly the dirge of cat scratch fever to the unbelievers.
-Qes

The cats can easily be turned back when I unleash the Avatar of Bath! Watch your minions scamper away in terror!

The cats have petitioned for unconditional surrender of this thread!
http://carcasherdotcom-seocontest.org/images/carcasherdotcom-cat.jpg

One of the captives do not agree though! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3a6ZZPLsio)

Actually, Burger the cat is terrified out of his mind, and that's why he behaves the way he does. Jokes about cats aside, that video is really quite depressing.

@Grey Fox

FOOL! That is not a sign of surrender! That is the ritual of Cetlah! It summons forth the Harbringer of all forsaken doom! Repent! So that you may join in their cuddlie grace! Or be rent asunder by the venom of Cetlah!

The Catinuum has trained in Various types of martial arts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tf4tAv-Mfs) and subterfuge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdQj2ohqCBk&mode=related&search=).

Join before its too late,
-Qes

@Wilboman - Yeah, it means it was abused. I had the same reaction of (Jesus, what happened to you :sad: )

ZOMG Solid Kitty Snake! But we know how to counteract him - bring on the shadowy Sons of Labrador and their secret weapon Muttal Grrrr Samoyed!

Hm... if cat-evil is now an alignment, can we also have dog-stupid-neutral?

Hm... if cat-evil is now an alignment, can we also have dog-stupid-neutral?

How about pig-smart-dirty?

Actually, I believe the alignment "good-dog-loyal" is covered by the Order, which is reached via the tech "Unquestioning Obedience".

lol, true.

I would like to point out that cat, dog and also rabbit can work together if they choose. Only the blind xenopohobia of the cat has led to the hatred between the races. Behold!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WE3

plus various images

http://images.google.com.au/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=we3&btnG=Search&sa=N&tab=wi

I would like to point out that cat, dog and also rabbit can work together if they choose. Only the blind xenopohobia of the cat has led to the hatred between the races. Behold!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WE3

plus various images

http://images.google.com.au/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=we3&btnG=Search&sa=N&tab=wi

When a cat is captured and corrupted for ill-gotten power, as the one you show has been, he is seperated from the catinuum and must be rescued. It is not out of cooperation that the cat is part of some team, but merely out of coersion and brainwashing. THis is the most serious kind of crimes.
-Qes

EDIT: Never heard of this series, is it animated? Or merely in Graphic Novella form?

I thought it was the "catinuum".

I thought it was the "catinuum".

It is.:shifty:
-Qes

I hate to bring this back to topic...

But I haven't had a chance to be this big of a dork in a long time.

I really liked the blood elves in Earthdawn, a role playing game. They survived a time of evil's dominance over the world by performing a blood ritual that put them in permenant pain with thorns growing out of their skin. They live in a huge forest that was similarly enchanted to protect against evil but effectively turning the forest itself into evil. Now you don't need to take all of this mythology, but for sinister, dark elves, I think they can't be beat. Ideas to steal: a connection to blood magic. Some sort of dark pact to keep them alive during the ice age, perhaps involving blood magic and perverting nature.

For dark fantasy, I think the dark elves should still live in nature but pervert it in some sinister fashion. Perhaps extremely powerful blood forests that require blood sacrafices, either from your enemies or from your own population.

EDIT: Never heard of this series, is it animated? Or merely in Graphic Novella form?

It's a three part comic series by Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely; available in a collected format as we speak. Verrrry high quality stuff. It's not at all difficult to cheer as they slaughter the mean ol' humans in a variety of horrible and interesting ways. Things get melancholy at times - at the end of the day it's a parable about cruelty to animals - but it never preaches and has a somewhat hopeful if not entirely uplifting ending.

You'd love the cat; due to his homicidal ways he runs out of ammo fairly quickly into their escape:

(Takes aim at unsuspecting helicopter pilot.)

'SSSSTINK BOSS!'

(Weapon won't fire.)

'??? CLAW B GON HHCCCCHHHSSS!'

Everything he doesn't like 'SSSTINKS' and he doesn't like almost everything.

I'll overlook 'merely', as you were clearly trying to imitate a cat and botched the job. :p

I really liked the blood elves in Earthdawn, a role playing game. They survived a time of evil's dominance over the world by performing a blood ritual that put them in permenant pain with thorns growing out of their skin.

To clarify this: they were specifically protecting themselves from creatures called Horrors who gained power and sustenance from inflicting suffering in various ways (different breeds had different requirements). The elven 'breakthrough' was to realise that the psychic and physical damage that the Ritual of the Thorns would inflict would make them less useful to the Horrors as a source of food or power.

The rest of the world regarded the tactic as more than a little creepy. Also, the Blood Elves are now a fairly malicious and nasty group of people. I'd hesitate to call them evil; certainly messed up beyond compare and capable of horrendous acts, but not evil in the same way as D+D's Drow. I look on them as more of a tragic mess.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f251/Niebelungen/KittyTableTennis.gif

But honestly some more discussion about svartalfar please!

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f251/Niebelungen/KittyTableTennis.gif

But honestly some more discussion about svartalfar please!


Wow thats so hypnotic... i sat here watching this for like 5 minutes :lol:

have a look at the teaser thread, i posted a screenshot of 2 svartalfar dark elven female units there in the first post :p

O_O that looks amazing!!!!

now im going to have to edit svartalfar so i can play them all the time :D

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f251/Niebelungen/KittyTableTennis.gif

But honestly some more discussion about svartalfar please!

How about the fact that your darkelves wont be big boosomed?"
-Qes

EDIT: Hypnosis is a skill learned by the earliest initiates into the Catinuum.

this thread seems the most revelant to dark elf discussion, despite the rampant offtopicness, so i'll discuss them here

maybe all dark elf units should start with the forest invisibility thing? would make playing them very interesting for the time being until they are more fleshed out, unlike ljosalfar they wouldnt want forests for the forest cottages (im assuming they wouldnt get those), but they would want forests around for the ability to ambush enemies.

this thread seems the most revelant to dark elf discussion, despite the rampant offtopicness, so i'll discuss them here

maybe all dark elf units should start with the forest invisibility thing? would make playing them very interesting for the time being until they are more fleshed out, unlike ljosalfar they wouldnt want forests for the forest cottages (im assuming they wouldnt get those), but they would want forests around for the ability to ambush enemies.

Yeah, and I like that sort of flavor too, but do you honestly believe that a miltiary bonus is superior to an economic bonus? or even equal?
-Qes

EDIT: It also strikes me as per Faerunian notions, that the ashen vale would be the most likely current religion for the darkelves. I do know however, that it's quite reasonable to make MORE religions (as i recently found the thread that deals with the different phases of FfH construction, and it specficially notes the possiblities of adding more religions.) I recomend something, oh, i dont know, Spidery deceptively doomish. Something with a lot of frothy sounding syllables. Moth, Sloth. Something in that sort of feel.....

Yeah, and I like that sort of flavor too, but do you honestly believe that a miltiary bonus is superior to an economic bonus? or even equal?
-Qes

EDIT: It also strikes me as per Faerunian notions, that the ashen vale would be the most likely current religion for the darkelves. I do know however, that it's quite reasonable to make MORE religions (as i recently found the thread that deals with the different phases of FfH construction, and it specficially notes the possiblities of adding more religions.) I recomend something, oh, i dont know, Spidery deceptively doomish. Something with a lot of frothy sounding syllables. Moth, Sloth. Something in that sort of feel.....

If we talk about the current religions, Leaves work for Svartalfar too. But there could potentially be 21 religions in the future, couldnt there? There are 21 "Gods", right? (that would be 22 with the one if thats the case, I guess) or is it 21 Angels and 1 God? Im not sure.

If we talk about the current religions, Leaves work for Svartalfar too. But there could potentially be 21 religions in the future, couldnt there? There are 21 "Gods", right? (that would be 22 with the one if thats the case, I guess) or is it 21 Angels and 1 God? Im not sure.

I think he's grouping them. I'd be happy with seven. (Not including dragon cult)

2 Good, 2 Evil, 3 Neutral.

Or, In their terminology
1 Good, 2 Good/Neutral, 1 Netural, 2 Netural/Evil, 1 Evil

So far its Order (good), Runes (Good/neutral), Fellowship (Neutral), OO (Netural/Evil), and Vale (Evil) and Dragon (Crazy/non selectable)

I think that A) Fellowship and Runes should be switched around in alignements. And B) that the two potentially added could be:


Arachniam (Netural/Evil)
Worshiped by the liars, cheats and scoundrals of the world, Arachniam is all about spinning a web of deception and allowing your prey to fall into traps, be them military, social, economic, or political. Power through coersion, and maitainance of secret socieites and rulilng classes determining everything, while constantly vying for power within the group itself.

Holy City Effects - Disciple Units gain "Hidden Nationality" promotion.

Buildings:
Arachnae's Lair (Holy City Building): + 1 Gold per City with Arachniam, spreads Arachniam.

Temple of Arachnae: +25% Culture -2 Unhappiness (possible?) +2 Unhealthiness (Only the strong survive), Can build Arachnian Diciple units. +1 Happiness with Insence

Cathedral of Arachnae: <Requires Temple of Arachnae> +25% Culture, -2 Unhappiness(Possible?) +2 Unheathiness, Disciple Units get +2 Xp, Turns 1 Excess Silk into 1 Iron (only in city).

Basillica of Arachnae: <Requires Cathedral of Arachnae> +25% Culture, -2 Unhappiness(Possible?) +2 Unheathiness, Turns 2 Excess Silk Into 1 Mithril (only in city)

Disciple Units:
Beliar of Arachnae: (Disciple) Can Spread Arachnaim.

Sicophant of Arachnae: (Priest) Higher Str than normal. Can produce Temple of Arachnae. Can Hire Mercenaries.

Ssphardar: (High Priest) Can paradrop 10 tiles away. (Use of Tunnels underneath the world). Immune to Magic.

Other Units:
Giant Spider: Produceable at cities with Temple.

Drider: <Expensive> <Requires Cathedral of Arachnae> Str 7, 1 First Strike, 30% Withdrawl Chance, Movement 2, has Hidden Nationality Promoiton and is an Invisable Unit.

Technologies:
Cavernous Expideditions: +2 Food per Mine; Walls, Castles and Mines Provide an extra 25% Defense. Allows access to "Hegemony" Civic.

Civics:
Hegemony: <Cultural Values> <High Maintenance> Prevents spread of other religions in cities. Units with "Hidden Nationality" gain +4 Xp. Double Production of Assassins and Shadows, Driders (and anything else that is subterfuge).


and


Wanderer's Opus (Good/Neutral)
A prophet known as the wanderer traveled through the lands and taught much of the ways of the world. His primary concerns were freedom for all people, the right to chose one's destiny, and the right to move about at will. Governments seldom enjoyed his preachings for it weakened their authroity, but those socieites that embrased him knew unparalleled freedom and expression.

Holy City Effects: +100% Culture

Buildings:
Tomb of the Wanderer (Holy City Building): +1 Gold per Opus City, spreads Opus Faster.

Forum of Wanderlust: (Temple) +25% Culture, Allows 1 one Artist, Allows 1 Sage, +1 Happiness with Insence.

Disciple Units:
Pilgram of the Opus: (Disciple) Can spread Opus. Can use impassable terrain.

Journeyman of the Opus: (Priest) Can create Forum of Wanderlust (does not disband Journeyman). Can use Impassable Terrain.

Wanderer's Apprentice: (High Priest) When In a home city, can sacrifice one population of the city to produce one settler (causes no discontent in city). Can Use Impassable Terrain.

Other Units:
Mavericks: Str 4, Cost 0 Maintenance. Have Medic 1. Fortification maximum at 50% (10 turns) instead of 25% (5 Turns).

Technologies:
Visions and Portents: Roads give +1 Movement, +1 Trade routes in All cities, +20% Trade route Yeild. Allows "Freedom of Movement" Civic.

Civics:
Freedom of Movement: <Cultural Value> <Low Maintenance> +50% Culture, +100% War Weariness, -2 XP per unit, Artists produce +2 Gold.


Wack away ladies and gents.

-Qes

Both of those look pretty great.

I think an interesting twist would be to split religion, and deific alliegance.

As in, 7 religions to choose from, and 21 Gods. Maybe some religions and gods are incompatible. So you have 2 menus, one to select your religion, another to select your patron diety.

A thought.

Im not gonna comment on your religion examples yet. But rather comment on the leaves suggestion. Which is, I dont like your suggestion.

I love the fact that the Leaves is neutral, and I also love that the Light Elves are neutral (mostly, boo for that Good ljosalfar you dont fit my FfH, be gone withya :P).
That (most) Ljosalfar are neutral, instead of as in almost every other Fantasy Setting, being Good. Makes them alot more interesting.

It's better when Humans are "good" in FfH for me. Humans have more of a weakness. They dont know better. They might think they are good, and what they do is good. But they are just fanatic about doing what they think are "good". But good in FfH isnt what good in many other Fantasy settings might be. Since its a Dark setting.

Or atleast thats my point of view.

What if Dark Elves could take Prisoner's of War. Most units could carry one prisoner. They could then take them back to the woods and sacrafice the prisoners in the woods. As you made the sacrafices, the woods would turn a dark red color. The woods would get sort of basic bonus for the sacrafices such as:

First sacrafice: +1 commerce.
Third: +1 Hammer
Fifth: +1 commerce

Now that we have cool graphics, we should really get this Civ going...

That might be pretty interesting. It might also be cool for them to be able to choose what they want to enhance in the forest, as in add either one :food:, one :hammers: and one :commerce:, or two :commerce:. Perhaps a forest enhanced in this way would also have a chance of spawning a treant-like unit in defense if a hostile unit entered it. Or, better yet, the unit it spawned could be hidden nationality, and it would spawn even if a unit with open borders entered the dark forest. ;)

Note that I really like that last mechanic I mentioned- I think it could be implemented elsewhere if not here.

Im not gonna comment on your religion examples yet. But rather comment on the leaves suggestion. Which is, I dont like your suggestion.

I love the fact that the Leaves is neutral, and I also love that the Light Elves are neutral (mostly, boo for that Good ljosalfar you dont fit my FfH, be gone withya :P).
That (most) Ljosalfar are neutral, instead of as in almost every other Fantasy Setting, being Good. Makes them alot more interesting.

It's better when Humans are "good" in FfH for me. Humans have more of a weakness. They dont know better. They might think they are good, and what they do is good. But they are just fanatic about doing what they think are "good". But good in FfH isnt what good in many other Fantasy settings might be. Since its a Dark setting.

Or atleast thats my point of view.

Thats fair, I care more about the addition of other religious options than I do about the specific alignment of one particular religion or another.
-Qes

Im not gonna comment on your religion examples yet. But rather comment on the leaves suggestion. Which is, I dont like your suggestion.

I love the fact that the Leaves is neutral, and I also love that the Light Elves are neutral (mostly, boo for that Good ljosalfar you dont fit my FfH, be gone withya :P).
That (most) Ljosalfar are neutral, instead of as in almost every other Fantasy Setting, being Good. Makes them alot more interesting.

It's better when Humans are "good" in FfH for me. Humans have more of a weakness. They dont know better. They might think they are good, and what they do is good. But they are just fanatic about doing what they think are "good". But good in FfH isnt what good in many other Fantasy settings might be. Since its a Dark setting.

Or atleast thats my point of view.

But Leaves is rather indifferent than neutral, as you can have any alignment while being Leaves. So in particularly, you can be good. If you switch Runes and Leaves, then Leaves is neutral/good, and flavorwise, you could imagine them being neutral, but tolerating good. Much what Kael said about Runes right now.

So the only thing that would change is that you could not be evil and Leaves at the same time. I think I was the one who brought that up originally (which means that I hold copyright on that suggestion and you have to pay me every time you even think about it...:p), because I didn't like the combination of a balance seeking, nature loving religion (Leaves would be neutral, for me, too), and world destroying, land burning evil people. But in the case of the Svartalfar, I have to say, the combination might make sense, cause here it maybe isn't a destructive kind of evil...

Only one civ really wants to destroy the world, the Sheaim. Really, they only thematically fit the veil. Even the Octopus Overlords don't want to end the world, just enslave it. Kilmorphites I don't see as being that hot on ending things once and for all either. When playing Sheaim, you really have to see them as either changing their goals, or only paying lip service to the creed and using it to placate the masses.
The other evils don't want to kill everything, though in some cases (Clans, Doviello) maybe they do want to kill everythin else. In which case they see the leaves as enableing them, the strong, to prey on the weak, ala social darwinism. Evil philosophy, yes, but potentially inspired by nature worship.

It would seem pretty evil to kill anyone who mistreats a tree, so if nature was vengeful itd just as easily be classified as evil by any who would use wood for anything.

on the note of Svartalfar, I made a Dark Elf warrior, swordswoman, and archer using the first set of female dark elf units, and am currently playing a marathon game so hopefully i wont ever get the units higher than axemen level before i win :P

If the Svartalfar had their own religion (ala QES' suggestion), then we could make Leaves neutral-good and Runes just plain neutral.
As it is, however, no other religion fits the Svartalfar like the Fellowship of Leaves (the closest second would be the Veil, and that's still a longshot), and, as such, it has to stay neutral.

And on another note, did anyone read my idea of having the Svartalfar be skilled at distance combat?

what is distance combat?

my impressions of them are that they're necromancers and assassins for the most part, so im hoping their combat units have invisibility in forests, elven trait, and maybe an additional first strike, and that they maybe get necromancy mana as one of their palace manas

and all female units :D

my impressions of them are that they're necromancers and assassins for the most part, so im hoping their combat units have invisibility in forests, elven trait, and maybe an additional first strike, and that they maybe get necromancy mana as one of their palace manas

Same here, except that just giving them invisibility in forests seems a little cheap. I picture them as being dodgy and evasive, staying out of sight until it's too late for the enemy to retreat. Not so much invisible as they are skilled at staying outside an enemy's visibility range (more on that later).

Their mages would use Spell Extension a lot, butchering their opponent without them knowing where it's coming from. Shadow spells would include things like Blind, a nasty condition that would reduce an enemy unit's visibility range (and their withdrawl rate, as well).

If we move Rooted from a divine spell to a sorcery spell, they could get Nature mana as well and use that to freeze an enemy unit in place while they butcher it with other spells. If not, they could get Mind or Chaos mana instead.

For the last mana source, I suggest we change the Ljosalfar's fire mana to water and give fire to the Svartalfar. This is mostly for game balance (no more Ljosalfar siege mages), but it serves a flavor purpose, as well.

For the assassins, again I don't suggest outright invisibility since that would take away some flavor from the Sidar; not to mention it'd be tough to balance.

Instead the assassins would have a unique promotion called "Stealth" that gives them +1 visibility, +1 movement, and +50% strength (possibly Hidden Nationality, as well).

Each turn, every unit with the Stealth promotion would be checked to see if they are currently visible to the enemy, and if they are, the Stealth promotion gets replaced by a similar promotion, but without the strength bonus. The icons on these promotions would be different so the player can determine when an assassin's cover has been blown at a glance (sort of like Oblivion's stealth system).
As a side-effect, the AI would also know when not to use an assassin because of the loss of strength.

id rather have forest invisibility and ambush every enemy, its not too great because if superior forces come they are likely to push your units out of the woods into adjacent tiles where the dark elves would be very vulnerable, but its neat and a flavourful

i dont think theyd need elven cottages and the like, but theyd need something to attach them to forests thats unique, and forest invisibility would do it, plus itd make them like spiders, and elven promotion so that the elf slayer works against them and give them mobility in woods.

Svartalfar units should probably have charm, alright. Mind Mana, in other words.

id rather have forest invisibility and ambush every enemy, its not too great because if superior forces come they are likely to push your units out of the woods into adjacent tiles where the dark elves would be very vulnerable, but its neat and a flavourful

i dont think theyd need elven cottages and the like, but theyd need something to attach them to forests thats unique, and forest invisibility would do it, plus itd make them like spiders, and elven promotion so that the elf slayer works against them and give them mobility in woods.

I agree that the Svarts need a bonus in forests, but just giving them invisibility still doesn't seem right. The only difference between an invisible assassin and a visible one is that the enemy won't see it coming. The combat odds are the same, as is the unit targeted by Marksman, and unless you go worker-hunting, invisibility itself really doesn't help much. There's no strategy to it other than picking your targets without getting ambushed yourself.

I'd rather have the Svartalfar access invisibility through magic and summons (and maybe promotions), while the basic assassins get something else entirely. Maybe high-level assassins could get a promotion that grants invisibility while fortified (or in forests, as you said), but IMO invisibility should be used as a means, not an end.

I still like the distance system because it give under-used promotions a purpose (Spell Extension, Sentry, etc.), and it gives the Malakim a natural resistance to the Svartalfar because some of their units (the Lightbringer, at least) start with Sentry.

well, being invisible and attacking means afterwards you can heal without worrying of counter attack. giving them elven will provide a small defensive and offensive in woods as well, and if you grab woodsman 1 you can attack enemies in forests without worrying about their forest def

if they need more id say just add a first strike or two, or give them a leader with agg/rai :p

I thought it was the "catinuum".

The Sophistication of the Catinuum - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbK1eCt97ag
-Qes

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/dorsai/icons/p5959196.gifhttp://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/dorsai/icons/p5959196.gifhttp://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/dorsai/icons/p5959196.gif
Nobody expects the feline inquisition!

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Nobody expects the feline inquisition!

Everyone expects it, but they are too cute to resist!