Realms Beyond brings you another whacky variant game, this time a reprisal of a Civ 3 classic.

RB 24 - Big Brother
Civ: Rome
Opponents: 7, aggressive AI
Level: Monarch
Map: Pangea, low sea level
Speed: Epic
Victory: All enabled, but must lose(!) by spaceship :eek:


Taken from Sirian's original game concept, modified to fit with CIV:
We are Romulus, of the Romans. Our objective is to seek out the Lost Tribe of our brother Remus, then bend our entire civiliation to helping him win the game! Like any good Big Brother, we love our Little Brother to death and would do anything for him, including playing second fiddle to him in his hour of glory.

Variant Rules:

1) All Victory Conditions enabled. However, anything OTHER THAN a Space Race victory by our "Little Brother" civ, will be a defeat.

2) First Civ we meet is Little Brother (or Little Sister...).

3) What Little Brother wants, Little Brother gets.

* Any demands he makes are granted.
* Any deals he offers of his own spontaneity are taken (no matter what!).
* As soon as either of us knows Alphabet, any tech we acquire that he doesn't have, we offer to him (by the end of our turn, doesn't have to be immediately), then accept the deal he offers us. If we don't like the deal, then just GIVE him the tech.
* Any strategic resources he lacks, we must offer to supply to him. We will take whatever he offers in return. If that's not good enough, just GIVE it to him (we may renegotiate the deal later).
* Any resources we need, we look to Little Brother to supply for us, and pay whatever price he asks (if we can't afford, then we must wait). ONLY if Little Brother does not have any of that resource to offer, are we allowed to look elsewhere for a supply.
* Any and all deals we wish to offer, we must take what he offers in return.

4) We believe in the same gods. If Little Brother converts to any religion, we must follow suit as soon as possible.

5) Little Brother's Birthday! At the end of each player's turn, they must bestow a gift upon our Little Brother if possible. Try not to spoil him! (No giving away cities, nor exorbitant amounts of cash, make it a reasonable gift).

6) Nobody Picks on Our Little Brother.

* Anybody who declares war on our Little Brother, we immediately declare war on them AND MAKE AN EFFORT to go help.
* We do not make peace with the offending civ until Little Brother first makes peace with them.
* If one of Little Brother's cities is captured, we must make an effort to liberate it, then give it back to him. ONE of the enemy's cities must also be razed in retaliation. We do not rest until this is done.
* If Little Brother loses a city, we will found a new one on the same spot and give it to him (unless he takes care of it himself before we can arrive). THREE of the enemy cities must be razed in retaliation! (And we do not rest until it's done).

7) We do not pick on anybody who leaves our Little Brother alone, UNLESS they start a spaceship. Anybody who threatens to steal Little Brother's glory by launching sooner, they have to be "roughed up". Get the picture? (Roughed up, not exterminated. OK?)

8) Nobody pushes us around. We don't cave to threats, ever. (Unless it's Little Brother flexing his muscle, then we go along).

9) If Little Brother declares war on us, we defend ourselves, but never attack his cities. Whatever he wants for peace is OK, too, EXCEPT FOR cities. We don't give him cities. (Even beloved little brothers need some limits set now and then).

10) We want to maintain Friendly relations at all times, if possible, with our Little Brother. (Will take time to get to that point, but once there, we want to stay there). We will never ask Little Brother for a Defensive Pact, but will happily agree to one if he asks us (he will know best when to sign one!).

11) Obviously, we must prevent any other civ from winning, with all the options on the table!


Roster:
Kylearan
theGrimm
Sirian
Atlas
T-hawk
Bede

You have 24 hours to post a "got it", then another 48 hours to play the game. However, overtime won't be a problem if you make sure to keep us posted about your progress.

Indeed whacky

All the more reason to lurk this one! :D

Subscribed!

Here is our starting position:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_1.jpg

Moving the warrior reveals nothing new, so I found Rome on the starting spot. Two spice resources are revealed.

Normally, I would start with building a worker. However, we are desperate to find the long lost tribe of Remus, our little brother, so I built a warrior instead to help us in our scouting efforts. Research is set to Agriculture nonetheless.

Our warrior moves east. He finds two tribal villages and desperately asks the savages if they have heard something of Remus, but alas! they have not. :sad: We get some gold as compensation, though.

But then we spot an orange border to the east...a foreign civilization! :eek: Maybe they know something about the whereabouts of our little brother? :scan:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_2.jpg

Her name is Catherine (what a nice name that is!). "Hello there Romulus", she says. "It's a pleasure to meet you at last!". Meet you at last...? Does she know us? Does our name have a meaning to her? "I'm always looking for closer relations", she continues, but I think I misunderstood her - after thinking about the words in this foreign language, I think the right translation would be "I've been looking for a close relative". Might it be possible...maybe she is...Oh my god, I'm so nervous. I ask her about Remus...and she knows him! She's his daughter! :woohoo:

We have found the lost tribe, and have met our little sister! Oh sweet sweet Cathy! Look how lovely our little sister is! How a well-spoken young lady she is! :love:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_lovelycathy.jpg

And yet, she has something vulnerable about her, something fragile. We shall look after her, and make sure her tribe will rise to glory! :queen:

Drunken of love, our warrior dizzily continues to scout the lands, when only two turns later he gets rudely awakened out of his dreams about our lovely sister by this horrible sight:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_3.jpg

Oh how ugly she looks! How blunt her greetings are! How rude her manners! How glad I am that it is not she who is the head of our long-lost tribe...quickly I agree about peace, and hurry on.

We also meet Napoleon, Bismarck, Montezuma and Hatshepsut. Montezuma has founded Buddhism and Hatty is Hindu - we shall see what out little sister will believe in later. She will know who the true gods are!

Now that we've found our cute little sister, we built a worker after the warrior had been finished. After Agriculture, we've researched the Wheel and Pottery so that our worker has something to do after irrigating the corn. Normally, I would go for Bronze Working next to see if we might be able to skip Archery - but with aggressive AIs, I've decided to take the safer route instead. Hunting will come in in 2 turns, and can be followed by Archery next.

Alas, I was not able to gift Cathy something for her birthday! Maybe we should prioritize Writing after looking for metal, so that we might gift her our heroic warrior who found her, to serve as ambassador between our tribes? :love:

Our capital in 2800BC:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_2800bc_capital.jpg

Note that we have no hills. :eek: Being expansive, we could make our capital a cottage heaven, but then we would have almost no hammers - so I propose to keep the forests intact, to put lumbermills on later.

I've not made a dotmap yet. First, I never make dotmaps - I just build a settler and then decide where to settle based on the current situation and needs. And in this case, I think we need to find out where the metal is first anyway. But if other players like to do a dotmap, go ahead. ;)

Roster:
Kylearan
theGrimm -> UP NOW
Sirian -> on deck
Atlas
T-hawk
Bede

I've played 40 turns, the next player can play 20, then the rest 15 for this first round, then we'll go back to 10 turns per player.

-Kylearan

A shot of our lands:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_2800bc_map.jpg

lurkers comment

a very nice idea indeed. no picking means no war from your side, right? but would it be allowed to "advise" your little sister about a good target with your axes (or praets?) ready? :)

i hope i'll see some nice diplomatic moves here :)

Hi,

no picking means no war from your side, right? but would it be allowed to "advise" your little sister about a good target with your axes (or praets?) ready?
No, I'd rather prefer this game not to become a standard "cripple all AIs by early conquest" game. Ideally, it will need a real effort until the end to help her launch the spaceship! So, if she doesn't get attacked or does not start a war of her own, we'll have to remain peaceful.

However, I've set the AI to 'aggressive' so that there will be some action going on, sooner or later. ;)

-Kylearan

Consider this a "got it".

Tonight will be a little busy, I fear, and I'd like to play my first SG turns as carefully as possible. Tomorrow night will be fine.

Edit...
Let me be the first to express gratitude at getting Cathy and not Viccy! And also the first to head off any future "closer relations" jokes.

That is a poor capital site, I don't think I've ever seen one without a single hill. There almost has to be a metal and/or Horses hidden there. I notice from the screenshot your niece is hitting on you :vomit:

Darrell

Checking in.

Head off future "closer relations" jokes? I think not :mischief:.

I sort of like dotmapping, but I don't think I am going to try with that land, I don't even see any one "clearly" good site. Maybe on that hill west of London that grabs spices, rice and cows :dunno:. Nothing there jumps out at me. In any event with Monty around and aggressive AIs we will want to get copper to protect our "little sister" (and ourselves since I think Monty probably got the worst start spot by the map generator, looks like tundra town down there).

Lol, the idea is great! I'll be lurking this for sure. You've been very lucky to meet Catherine before Montezuma here. It would have been much harder to help the azkteskimos launch :).

Head off future "closer relations" jokes? I think not :mischief:.



"Don't Look Down." Reverse Psychology!

If the capital has neither neither metal, then the second site will almost NEED to have production as a first priority. We need sufficient power to protect not only ourselves but also our little sister from at least one lunatic. The capital, at size 5, has a max production of, uh, 1+4*2=9HPT? And every pop point after that will only add 1HPT. The food situation isn't good enough to whip an army.

I would want a city that can grab some hills (preferably with a production resource, too), and the food resources to work those hills. Spices, rice and cows looks "best" at the moment.

Anyway, we should have Bronze Working before our first settler is available, and that will clear the picture up somewhat. Hopefully.

I could sing an ode rhapsodizing bee stung lips, chestnut hair and a chin like the chine of a well built frigate...but Abbot Grimm has rudely reminded me of my vows, so I'll keep it to myself. And Mother Victoria of the Order of the Holy Water Buffalo is watching.

Well, that's as close to Civ3 Joanie as we could have come. It must be destiny. :D


- Sirian

Well, Cathy definitely is more shapely than Xerxes ever was... :D Good luck, I'll be lurking !

Well. As it turns out, I found some time to play tonight. Though the report took a while. Bare with me as I navigate the growing pains of “advanced” forum features (i.e. pictures and attachments.)

Also, comments on my turns welcome. This is my first SG.

***

Ah. It’s 2800 BC, and Julius looks out over the fine riverlands that mark the borders of Rome…no finer lands there are, Julius thinks, but for the lands of our darling Catherine. Nearby, across the river, workers toil on the fields, while in the forests, men chase wildlife with spears. They have not caught anything yet, but soon…perhaps if they tried throwing the spears…

Some few years later, Julius’ advisors report that the lands are farmed, and that the men in the forests have succeeded in catching some tasty wildlife. 50 men managed to surround a large beast with horns, killing it with their long spears. Julius, however, had a hunch that throwing the spears might yet be more effective, and so, men began to look for ways to cast spears through the air at their prey. The farm workers, meanwhile, were instructed to build huts along the banks of the river. He scoffed at suggestions that the workers should build roads to allow speedy access from the huts to the farms. (“Romans don’t build roads,” he said. “Let the lazy buggers walk.”)

Back at the ranch, er, Rome, men had been set to patrol the city with large wooden clubs. It made people feel safer from the nasty horned forest wildlife. The city workers began to build a large structure to store grain from the farms for winter.

One fine day, as Julius was preparing to visit Cathy for a spot of tea, an excited hunter came running in to his office to demonstrate a fine new weapon…called a “bow”. With this strange curved object, a small sharp spear could be fired quite a distance, hopefully imbedding itself in its target. Hunters could now catch the horrid horny forest creatures without fear of being impaled on their horrid horny forest horns.

Julius, inventive fellow that he was, immediately saw another application, and instructed the city workers to leave the granary be, and begin the construction of bows and bow-spears. That strange fellow with the feathers and bird skulls on his head was creepy, and Julius had no desire to see his pet parakeet on Monty’s head.

Later, over tea with Cathy, Julius heard Cathy tell of how they had implemented a new system called “slavery”. Apparently, it had to do with the beating of hard soft rocks into interesting shapes. Julius was unable to see the relationship between slaves and interestingly shaped rocks, but clearly, if Cathy thought it a good idea, it must be. (Needless to say, back at the ranch, er, Rome, Julius’ men gave him a wide berth for several days after his attempts to describe Cathy’s soft hard rocks.)

Before Julius left, though, Cathy had something to say:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/35362/rb24_2410bc_warning.JPG

Perhaps the “archers” (as Julius dubbed them), would be useful for more than looking mean when Monty was around.

Turn summary

-I followed the research oath Kylearan suggested: Hunting->Archery->Bronze Working (due in 4)

-Having completed the warrior, a granary was ordered up to fill the gap until archery came in. I was tempted to finish the granary, but the archer will at the very least be handy to escort our first settler, and I don’t know what aggressive monarch civs might do.
Rome gets cheap granaries, and the capital isn’t FLUSH with food. I suspect we can whip the first settler AND the rest of the granary in one swoop. The archer is due in one; I’d go settler next, personally.

-The worker has put up cottages. In the spirit of T-Hawks micromanagement tips, I finished the farm and both cottages before starting a road, which brought the extra commerce in, uh, four turns earlier per cottage. NB: The worker finished a road on my final turn; I’ve left the movement points to the next player.

-Rome was focused on growth until it reached size five. The five best tiles are all in use. I’d road one more tile, by which time BW will come in and we can start roading towards the bronze.

-The explorer around Russia spent most of his time healing, but is mapping out Cathy’s territory. He also met an envoy from Saladin.

-The western explorer mapped the region around the elephants (not too promising), and then headed between France and Egypt. He’s almost run out of room.

-Still no gifts for Cathy!

Rome (Note that Cathy is tops! Woohoo, Cathy!):
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/35362/rb24_2200bc_empire.JPG

The western scout:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/35362/rb24_2200bc_scoutwest.JPG

The Russian envoy:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/35362/rb24_2200bc_scouteast.JPG

And the game:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/35362/Romulus_BC-2200.Civ4SavedGame

And the roster:
Kylearan
theGrimm
Sirian -> UP NOW
Atlas -> on deck
T-hawk
Bede

For anyone who seeks the origin of this one just go this way: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43926

This will be a fun one...

Well, aside from the large picture causing screen scrolling badness (sorry, won't do that again), I think I did that okay. Not sure if I uploaded the save properly, but it's late, and I need sleep. If it doesn't work, I'll do it again properly in the morning.

Thanks to the link to RBD19 SG version 2, Imhotep, but I was just reprising Sirian's idea. THIS is the link to the original Big Brother SG: :)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18255

Save works for me.

Oh the Grimm has played and met little sis'
Now Sirian is up and with Cathy shall reminisce
Of the days yore; And glory of old
Though many great feats have yet to told

Got it, but Lil Sis is in the bathroom again, so this could take a while. :sleep:


- Sirian

Hi,

good turnset, theGrimm! Personally, I would have built a settler a bit earlier, but going the safe route waiting for archers is fine too - who knows what aggressive AIs are up to. :)

Note that Cathy is tops!
Wow, she was third last at the end of my turns. Maybe she popped some techs from huts? Anyway, well done little sis'! :goodjob:

-Kylearan

Monty as a little brother would have been.... interesting :lol:

I mean never mind the skulls and feathers, but following the antics of little brother monty would have been effing hilarious..

So lucky you got a hottie like cathy.

Cheers!
-Liq

Hi,

Personally, I would have built a settler a bit earlier, but going the safe route waiting for archers is fine too - who knows what aggressive AIs are up to. :)

-Kylearan

Had it been my own game, I would have, too. Not sure what I would have escorted him with, though. :) I could have brought back a scout, but imagine if my warrior-settler got eaten by a bear on my very first SG turn!!

I'm getting the feeling that the map is a bit crowded, so we might want to look at prioritising a couple of good spots ASAP. Sirian will be in a position to judge that soon enough.

So far, I like:
-Rice and bananas north north east of rome...good production, not so great choice of resources...also, needs iron working.
-Cows and Rice West of Germany...I like the lone plains square, though that faces cultural (and military) pressure from Germany. One east of that is an option, too.
-Fish and rice north west of Rome. Again, good production, but happiness resources are a little more useful to the healthy romans.
-The gems and dyes site north east of Rome lacks production, and needs scouting; it doesn't seem worthwhile enough as is.

I'm getting ready to play and then realize I need to know stuff like how many turns to play, etc.

Only ten turns (after the first round) on EPIC? :eek: Geeze.

I say that because each round is supposed to see a gift to Little Sister, but this will end up being a higher relative ratio of gifting than in the original.

I propose we stick with 15 from here on out. Will anybody second? :mischief:


Anyway, here I go.


- Sirian

We also owe Cathy 2 gifts already :) You can only send SO many belated birthday cards.

10 turns ain't much for building or researching, but 15 is plenty for getting into trouble with wars and whatnot...But I think I can avoid digging TOO deep a hole within 15 turns, and I don't expect Kylearan to leave me any to dig out of, so it's fine by me.

We also owe Cathy 2 gifts already :)

Um... no. :lol: At least, that isn't how I would vote to deal with it.
The Civ3 game mechanics allowed cash gifting immediately.
Perhaps the rule should be revised to say that gifting begins once it is possible to gift something.


This game situation is a real mess. :( (Sorry.)
We're locked in a sardine can at least as extreme as RB21.
The only correct answer in this situation is to bust out the metals...
...and take over an opponent or two, but the variant rules here prohibit that.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/8083/rb24-sirian-1.jpg

I wish I had looked at the game settings before volunteering.
There is a reason the original instance of this variant was played on a large (Civ3) archipelago map with low sea level.


Anyway... I did what I could with this, um, situation.

The only thing I screwed up was unnecessarily :smoke: losing both of our scouts to the HORDE of endless Archer spam.
I actually killed three enemy archers with our two WARRIORS, and I could have fled with the wounded.
I was expecting the units to wake from medical sleep when a threat came in range, but...
...apparently that doesn't happen?
(Why was I expecting that to happen?) :confused:
I let myself become too unsettled and distracted by the squeeze on Rome. Sorry. :smoke:
That squeeze felt particularly alien for me coming off of RB20. :crazyeye:
I was thinking the gameplay flavor would be more similar to the original. :sad:
I seem to have a curse when it comes to this variant.


I got two Archers trained, the Granary done...
...a Settler built and another ready to whip early for next player.
I also got us most of the way to Iron Working tech with nonstop cottage use.

The dates during my run were -REALLY- confusing.
I know I played more than fifteen yet less than twenty. :crazyeye:
I could not figure out when the dates jumped from 40 turns to 30.
That's one of my peeves, and I was fussing at someone over it recently.
I limped along the last couple of turns to the nearest round number.
That seemed to be the best.

So between the turn numbers, losing the scouts, and feeling the visegrip...
...this has not been my most shining SG round.
I feel like I let the team down a bit here.


The Save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/8083/Romulus_BC-1600.Civ4SavedGame)


Good luck to the next player in line. You're going to need it. :undecide:


- Sirian

Good luck to the next player in line. You're going to need it. :undecide:

Well, things may not be going well for Romulus, but then again, it does not really matter since we are not supposed to win this thing anyway ;) .

I got it by the way. Though if Sirian says luck is needed, then luck it shall be. Are there any specific thoughts, I will play after lunch, in about 2 hours.

edit: Rules question here-

8) Nobody pushes us around. We don't cave to threats, ever. (Unless it's Little Brother flexing his muscle, then we go along).:

What about Monty? He makes me :twitch: when it is a normal game as a neigbor, not to mention on aggresive. Most of the rules address the Lil' Sis', if Monty chooses "Unwisely" then......

(all those dots mean that YOU (you being whoever feels they can finish that phrase) finish that phrase :lol: )

Hi,

Only ten turns (after the first round) on EPIC? [...] I say that because each round is supposed to see a gift to Little Sister [...]
I propose we stick with 15 from here on out.
Good point about the gifts, I hadn't thought about that. Normally, I'm a bit torn between 10 or 15 turns for an Epic SG. 15 turns feels about right for the slower production speed, and yet it can be awfully long during a war.

I'm fine with 15 turns per player, with the option of playing only 10 during a war if the player wants to.

Perhaps the rule should be revised to say that gifting begins once it is possible to gift something.
That's exactly how I meant it to be. If you reread the rules carefully, you might notice that I've added an "if possible" to your original birthday gift rule. ;)

I wish I had looked at the game settings before volunteering.
There is a reason the original instance of this variant was played on a large (Civ3) archipelago map with low sea level.
I had thought about making the map size arge, but the problem with large maps is that a lot of people experience slowdowns and lags in later ages, and I wanted everyone who liked this concept to be able to sign up for this. I had set the map generator to "low sea level" for that reason, but apparently I overestimated the amount of extra land this would generate. Sorry for that.

The only correct answer in this situation is to bust out the metals...
...and take over an opponent or two, but the variant rules here prohibit that.
That was one of the main reasons I've set the AI to "aggressive" (hey, I have put some thoughts into the rules for this game!). Once all space has been settled, I hope for some war declarations, and if it's Cathy or us who get declared on, we can expand more.

If not (I have no experience with aggressive AIs), then we have to see how we can help Cathy to launch with a smaller empire. Personally, I would like to play out that challenge as well, but I can see why this might not appeal to everyone.

It's still the first round, so feel free to drop out of this game, Sirian. I'm sure we would quickly find a new player as a substitute for you. I do hope however that you will stay with us and adopt that "play the hand you're dealt" mentality of yours. :lol:

-Kylearan

Hi,

8) Nobody pushes us around. We don't cave to threats, ever. (Unless it's Little Brother flexing his muscle, then we go along).
What about Monty? He makes me :twitch: when it is a normal game as a neigbor, not to mention on aggresive.
Well, if he threatens us then we have to tell him where to shove that threat. We will accumulate some -1 modifiers with other civs during that process, but if Monte decides to attack us - then this might solve some of our problems with having not enough space to settle. :)


I have not much time today so unfortunately can't comment on the current situation. I will have a closer look tomorrow.

-Kylearan

It's still the first round, so feel free to drop out of this game, Sirian. I'm sure we would quickly find a new player as a substitute for you. I do hope however that you will stay with us and adopt that "play the hand you're dealt" mentality of yours. :lol:

-Kylearan

I agree you won't have a problem finding someone. I was tempted to sing up, but it was already to late...

I could not figure out when the dates jumped from 40 turns to 30.


The preturn was 2800, my first turn was 2770, my third turn was 2740...so the main reason you missed it was because it happened at the beginning of MY turnset.

The preturn was 2800, my first turn was 2770, my third turn was 2740...so the main reason you missed it was because it happened at the beginning of MY turnset.

Hmm. OK. I was positive I saw it counting by 40s, but maybe I was stuck inside the Twilight Zone. :crazyeye:

That means I did play 20 turns. :(

Sorry. :sad: If it's best to shorten my next round or skip me once, go ahead.


If not (I have no experience with aggressive AIs), then we have to see how we can help Cathy to launch with a smaller empire. Personally, I would like to play out that challenge as well, but I can see why this might not appeal to everyone.

Yes, but this concept was originally designed for pure flavor. Of all Civ scenarios that I have ever designed, this one was most about the roleplay. The idea was not to dig a hole and climb out of it -- haven't we all done that already in dozens of games? -- but to take the focus OFF of winning (or losing) and put it on the journey, reacting and responding to what is going on with the allied civ, the Little Brother.

Big Brother is SUPPOSED to be powerful, but restraining himself to let little brother have the spotlight for once. Little Brother leading in score, while Big Brother is dead last and likely to be the one being picked on, but sucking it up and "playing the hand that was dealt" is about as far from the original concept as we could go.

That's not to say that the gameplay you've set up here is invalid. I'm sure it will be a challenge -- and if challenge is your primary goal here, that's OK. It would be a major variation away from the original -- perhaps approaching the strange situation of borrowing only the letter of the rules -- but fine.

However, to me that is missing the point. The whole idea of all those gifts is a big brother in position to give, not an obsessive sibling selling his house and putting his own family out on the street to buy little brother a third yacht. :lol:

We also have the misfortune of having started in the middle, with Little Sister well shielded on the back end of the continent. If the positions were reversed, and we had the wide open east, this map might be more in line with the original scenario's spirit. Ironically, it would probably also be harder, since Little Sister would be on the front line, and we would not be waiting for (really, HOPING FOR) someone to come and attack us so we could expand far enough to fill our intended role as able benefactor.


I respect the "play it out" mentality. However, I have also worked pretty hard over the years to shield the RB tournaments from having to play out any more lemons. We did enough of that in the early days. One still slips in there now and then, but Civ3 Epics 14 and 17 were the last straws, after which I gave up on random maps and started editing every map for every event and gave up on being a competitor (because I'm almost always shadowing). Epic 14 I playtested almost to 1AD, but literally every start for the AI that was NOT on the player's continent in that game turned out to be a dud -- a legendary occurrence, which I finally realized was the norm not the exception. Epic 17 was supposed to be a pangaea but Gandhi was off on his own continent. :crazyeye: I managed to fix so many of these problems with the maps by getting myself in position to be THE Civ map guy, like officially. However, even then, many variants and many of the most subtle flavorings still require (or greatly benefit from) manual attention.

When I'm telling players to "play it out", it's because I've already made sure to set up a controlled set of boundaries.

This game should be well playable. It won't be a Big Brother game, more like "older brother", but nothing wrong with that, I suppose.


As for my participation, I could go either way. If I step aside, someone more enthusiastic could take my spot. If I stay, my turns will be quieter, less jovial and less detailed than normal, but I will refrain from any more second-guessing of the layout. Whatever you think is best for the team.


- Sirian

Hi,

Yes, but this concept was originally designed for pure flavor. Of all Civ scenarios that I have ever designed, this one was most about the roleplay.
I agree, and that's why I've tried to do a little bit more than just reporting the facts for my first turnset, and theGrimm did the same. And that's also why I'm a bit disappointed that this thread turns into the sort of rules and scenario discussion I had hoped to see handled in the signup-thread at RB. :sad:

I had expected all kinds of questions like "Why no permanent alliances enabled?", "Why aggressive AIs?", "Why no large map?", and was open to change some of these settings. However, since nobody objected to anything, I was hoping to keep the actual game thread clean of these discussions that distract from the story.

The idea was not to dig a hole and climb out of it [...] I'm sure it will be a challenge -- and if challenge is your primary goal here, that's OK.
Challenge was not my primary goal here, and I didn't plan for us to dig out of a hole. Maybe the problem is that I haven't played a random map for ages, only your hand-tailored scenarios at RB, and so I'm a bit surprised just how crammed this map has become. RB13 for example has been a standard sized map as well, and all civs had more room to expand than on this map - maybe it's because of the pangea?

On the other hand, my idea of changing the map type from archipelago to pangea and setting the AIs to aggressive was that I want us to have to react a lot. I want us to have to live with little sister's decisions more than once. I want us to have to protect her (and ourselves) during the game, and not only gift her something every turnset and that's it about the theme. I mean, the focus should be on roleplaying, and we need some unexpected events to be able to tell a story in the first place! So in this light, I'm not too disappointed that it's so crowded. More opportunities for action leads to more opportunities for story-telling, at least that's how I see it. However, that we are on the frontline and shield Cathy on the edge of the map is indeed unfortunate.


Now that discussions are already overshadowing the game itself, we might as well discuss how to proceed from here. I'd like to have input from the team on these options:

1) Restart this game on a large map, maybe continents or even archipelago, and with any other changes the team agrees upon.

2) Continue to play this one out.

I'm fine with both, but whatever we decide, I'd like to focus on the actual game again after this discussion.

-Kylearan

It's a tough call; do we embrace a "role playing" challenge or a tactical challenge. Being somewhat new to the SG arena, I expect I'd enjoy either approach as much.

It does seem to me, though, that it may be unrealistic to do both. If the game is HARD, as it appears to be turning out to be, we'll need to focus our turn time on playing well, and creative reporting will be next to impossible; reports will need to be strategic.

Extending the turn time is probably out of the question; there is a reason SG continuity must be maintained. There won't be time for the sorts of reports Kylearan and myself have written if this is a battle for a win (as defined by our variant rules)

So we probably need to choose one, and the current map does not favour the role playing approach. As I stated initially, I would embrace either with the same amount of enthusiasm.

We probably need to hear back from the whole team before making a decision, but whichever approach we take, it would be unproductive (to everyone) holding a team member to a game their heart wasn't in anymore.

Kylearan, I don't there's anything wrong with the map settings as is; we simply got dealt a bad hand (for the variant). If we rerolled a map, I'd like to see the same settings, but to get someone to pre test for a random map with certain basic specifications (room to expand, us and little brother in "good" places).

Then again, I'm not an expert on game balance, so I won't cry if we agree to different settings. I WILL state my hesitation at playing a large map though, both due to time and system constraints.

Well, I know how I would vote but I'm not in the SG :p. If you guys do decide to restart and want someone not on the roster to tailor the map for the gameplay goals (whichever ones you choose), I would be happy to do that for you.

Darrell

I agree, and that's why I've tried to do a little bit more than just reporting the facts for my first turnset, and theGrimm did the same. And that's also why I'm a bit disappointed that this thread turns into the sort of rules and scenario discussion I had hoped to see handled in the signup-thread at RB. :sad:

That has been my doing, for sure.

Sometimes it's better late than never, though. The only emphasis I picked up in the signup thread was the game rules, not the map flavor, so if one of your priorities was to have signees examine your map plans, it could have been emphasized a bit more. The rules were (to me, the original author) indistinguishable from the originals, except for the new religion rule. The rest I figured you had a handle on. Even the Aggressive AI setting I took to mean you wanted more threats against Little Brother, rather than being a back door opening for getting US in to more wars for the express purpose of picking up enough land to compete.


I shouldn't get a vote. If the rest of the team splits two to two, Ky will have to tiebreak.

Anyway, even if the team decided on a restart, we don't need to go to a large map. What might fit best would actually be a standard Fantasy Realm map, sure to have all the war pressure (and even more threat exposure) than Pangaea, but with the omnidirectional elements from the original Archipelago. Without any concerns about our position on the continent and whether we are shielding (or shielded by) Little Brother, almost any random example would do. A further plus is that the terrain type variety is nearly homogenous, region to region, so neither we nor Little Bro would be handed extremes of land quality. ALL the land would be most thoroughly mixed, and the fantastical terrain would add opportunities for humor and fun.

There's also still the option to stick with this start. :)


- Sirian

If the game is HARD, as it appears to be turning out to be, we'll need to focus our turn time on playing well, and creative reporting will be next to impossible; reports will need to be strategic..
This is a thought and will be an issue with playing it out.

I am fine with restarting, though rolling a new start makes me feel dirty ;), but no hills at the capital, boy sometimes you just take hill for grantide. Kylearan I will tell you since I play lots of random maps that this one is just an anamoly, I mean there are 3 AI Capitals in our second ring :eek: , on Monarch the AI still gets a city out before you most of the time and that means that they got their second cities in our first ring.

As for a new map I would prefer a pangea or continents map, tailored/tested by somebody.

Edit: Just let me play out this turn set and lets find out where the Iron is, if we have Iron then we can have all the land we want

(T0- 1600BC)

Romulus III is very concerned about Lil' Sis. Being the big Brother he know it is his duty to protect that cute little tike, but Alas Romulus has not been in the gym pumping iron and buffing up (I vill pump you up!!) and the unfortunate result is that Romulus' tiny frame appears unable to support the brawn required to protect Lil' Sis, fortunately Cathy :love: turned out to be about 2 meters tall and 90 kilos, she eats puny AIs for breakfast.

Romulus however is on a quest to put things in their proper state. It is good that lil' Cathy is actually Big Cathy, but Romulus yearns to fill his role as BIG Brother, so he will learn about Iron and then find some to pump. He is in fact very concerned about all these Barbarian running around to north, I mean you just can NOT trust Barbarian around your little Sister. So Romulus orders a little bit of exploration be done around those tempting looking gems, I mean Lil' Sis would be so adrorable in some gems, and what is found? More gems enough for Sis and the ladies of Rome.

Oh Happy Day Romulus has learned the secrets of Iron and longs to tell his sister all about them, but in their time apart some communication issues have developed, but in time those issues will be resolved.

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3728/civ4screenshot0022nm2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

More important it appears that there is some Iron present and that Romulus may indeed be able to bulk up a bit with some Praetorian Presses, Axeman lunges, and Spearman thrusts. Romulus immediate dispatches his loyal works to gather some of the new metal and build him a gym. A consultation with Lil' Sis shows that at the gym she would like a swimming pool, a sauna, and a tennis court, she want to invite her friends Saladin and Napoleon. I tell okay, when it is built, but until then I don't think you should be spending too much time with that Riff-Raff, but being impetous, she insists that they are very nice and that all my experince with them just involved misunderstandings. Harumph!!!

It is time to learn to communicate with Lil' Sis, so Romulus sets the great thinkers the task learning how this might be done.

The scientists were almost finished learing how to communicate with little sister, when she learned to communicate with us!!! We agree that it is A okay for her to be a guest in my lands and me in her lands, any time we want!!!

Roman scientist (with a little help from the slackers in Antium) have learned to communicate with others (a little bit), and since we have already agreed that "mi casa es su casa" with Lil' Sis' and new group of Romans seem ready to set out to found another city Romulus III is happy with his achievments and passes away quietly in the night.

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7462/civ4screenshot0024rn6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

(I only played 14 turns, finishing writing and a settler on the 14th turn so it seemed a natural place to retire).

The lands

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/8665/civ4screenshot0025ki0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/8542/civ4screenshot0026ei4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Looks like that would make me up now, at least if Atlas would kindly post us the save. :)

However, I'm in favor of rerolling a more appropriate map. I'm speaking as a veteran of the successful Civ 3 Big Brother game. Our little bro, Xerxes, just became the big dog pretty much all by himself without really even needing our support. We had a great time with the roleplay, but the game mechanics for Big Brother never really materialized.

I see a reprise occurring here. Cathy's already got the score lead, and as a Financial leader with our technological support, she's likely to run away economically with or without any wars. What I want out of the concept is to see us truly make the difference in which AI becomes dominant, but this game has Cathy already poised to do that by herself.

I do like the idea of Aggressive AI to mix it up, but I think the concept will be better served with a new map. I've never been a slave for the "play the hand you're dealt" mentality. Often it's best just to fold and survive to another day.

Big Brother: "Moooooom, Lil' Sis stole my save game and now my friends and I can't play Civ"

Cathy: "I only stole it cause he offended my freinds Saladin and Napoleon, he called them backstabbing fanatics"

Mom: "Is that true, Romulus?"

Romulus: "Well, yeah, but I only said it because it was true."

Mom: "Apologize to your sister."

Cathy: :p :p :p :p

Romulus: "Sorry, for offending those two (garbled the end of the phrase)"

Cathy: "Here is your stupid save back" http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/64087/Romulus_BC-1180.Civ4SavedGame

Since I have yet to get a boot on the ground in this one I am going to adopt the position of the Original Big Brother and vote to reset the map.

Game design is a like modern art in my mind : I know what I like, but don't have the experience or insight to even suggest why. I am but a dilettante, not a connoisseur, a Philistine looking out for the ass's jawbone, certainly not aficionado. So I defer to those who both played the Original and have had a chance to play a round in this one.

That said I see do see great opportunity for diplomatic and economic hi-jinks in this one.

And while you are at it - Sis needs to get religion. That l'il heathen......Get her baptized and none of this furrin nonsense either. Good orthodox Christianity will do jus' fine.

BTW, I'm holding off on playing until we have a final decision from Kylearan as to whether to play this map out or reroll a new one. (Or I run out of other things to do tonight. :lol: )

Hi,

The only emphasis I picked up in the signup thread was the game rules, not the map flavor, so if one of your priorities was to have signees examine your map plans, it could have been emphasized a bit more.
All things I had changed from your original game settings have been changed for a reason, and somehow I thought people would recognize these changes in my post at RB on their own. I should have spelled out these changes and the reasons for them more obviously so people would be able to recognize and discuss them. My bad, sorry for that.

However, changing map size and type turned out not to be a good change. I really hoped to have more space to settle, as I did not want us to have to climb out of a hole, and the fact that our little sister is shielded by us doesn't help, too. So after sleeping and thinking about the issue with a clear mind, I agree to reroll the map. What I do not want to change though is the "aggressive AI" option, as otherwise I fear the game might become too boring if the AIs remain too peaceful.


I like Sirian's proposal to use a standard Fantasy Realm map very much. I hadn't been aware that this map script offers world wrap on both axes (which might even be the reason for me to start my first private game in a long time!). The script looks like it has more land tiles than pangea or continents, so a standard Fantasy Realms map might be a good compromise between standard and large map size, and will hopefully run on theGrimm's machine as well. Personally, I'd prefer "logical" resource placement, as "irrational" or even "crazy" would distract us too much from the variant theme.


So to recap, here's the proposal for the reroll:

Map: Fantasy realm, standard size, low sea level, logical resource placement
Opponents: 6 (Would the map support one additional opponent, so that we and little bro' would face the "standard" number of 6 opponents?)
Difficulty: Monarch
Options: Aggressive AIs
Variant rules: See first post

Please voice any objections now! All options are open for discussion, although it's highly unlikely that you will be able to persuade me to leave out the "aggressive AIs" option. ;)

If I hear no objections, I will create a new thread tomorrow. Again, my apologies for this false start, especially to theGrimm and Sirian who had to play a turnset already. The upside of this is that the new thread will be called "RB24b", which fits perfectly to the "RB24s" thread. :crazyeye:

-Kylearan

I've played a standard-size, all-defaults Fantasy Realm map post-release. (The objective there was to test it for inclusion in a patch, actually). It was a very busy game and on Emperor I was squeezed quite a bit. I would think that adding one extra player will only result in that player being squeezed in to a hole that will then put it closer to two or three civs than any of the other civs are close to each other. This would then be a runt civ, not unlike Napoleon was in RB20, and would actually DECREASE the total threat level, unless by chance Little Bro is the last civ placed.

I like the idea of Rational resources for this game, but I would stick with seven civs. Better that each opponent be a bit larger and more capable, and less likely to be fighting with one another.


I would also strongly prefer to continue in this thread. Many an early RB SG in Civ3 involved hashing out extra variant rules, or other second guessing, and then the game proceeded normally. Why cut out the debate? That is part of the event. ... Seriously. Half the people tuning in to RB1 Cubans were checking out the latest arguments between Sulla and me. People like a bit of spice with their food. :D


- Sirian

I was tempted to suggest "crazy" resource placing, but after randomly generating 3 successive "pigs on ice" starts, I'll refrain.

I'm happy with those settings, but l agree with Bede (if somewhat less eloquently)...I'm not too good at predicting up front whether the map settings will be good or not. I am also happy for T-Hawk to pick this one up, OR for us to restart the roster. Whichever seems to make sense to everyone else is fine by me.

If I understand this correctly, though, the ideal would be for us to have a STRONG start? So, perhaps we should allow Kylearan to reroll till he finds a decent one (perhaps with a hill :) ), or take Darell up on his offer to check the map out?

Cheers.

Oh One More Thing(TM)...

If we restart on Fantasy Realm and you -really- want to make this thing spicy, send the initial warrior east or west, so as to find the first civ to east or west. That would increase exposure and threat levels by giving us only one border with brother, compared to us plus Little Bro lining up vertically, occupying an entire longitudinal slice and sharing two borders.


- Sirian

Sounds good :) :)

Romulus woke up, sweating and panting heavily. He had had another one of those nightmares...looks like his quest of finding his little brother put too much stress on him, and now he got haunted in his sleep by his failure so far. It was the same kind of nightmare he had every night: One of his scouts would report back that they finally had made contact with their lost tribe, but to his horror the tribe was always led by...a woman!!! One night, it had been a virgin with a very sexy accent called "Joan". This night, it had been a very beautiful woman called "Cathy"...oh the horror! The lost tribe ruled by a woman?!? And him having, uh, unclean thoughts about his very own sister? The thought made him feel deeply ashamed (but a little aroused as well...)

He sighed heavily. At least there was one thing he liked about his dreams: Every time, their own tribe had decided to settle down so that they could better make use of the lands. That way, they had been able to feed more people and could send out more scouts to find Remus. That idea was very good, and so Romulus ordered his people to do the same, and found Rome in 4000BC.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_4000bc.jpg

He thought about training a worker, but he had no idea what the worker should do once he would be finished. So instead, he ordered his people to train another warrior, to search for Remus. He was so desperate to find him that he even sent away their only military protection to look for his little brother.

But even before the second warrior scout was finished, they made contact - Remus had sent a scout of his own, who now had found us!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_3880bc.jpg

But it looks like Remus has gone slightly mad in the time I wasn't able to watch over him - he calls himself "Monty the Mad" and wears silly feathers and a skull on his head now! While I appreciate his aggressive way of thinking, his behavior also makes me a bit nervous. He seems to be a bit schizophrenic, as he sometimes forgets that I'm his big brother...hope that he won't cause any trouble.

Only a few years later, our scouts make another contact:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_3670bc.jpg

This man calls himself "Alex" and seems to be a real lunatic. I don't like his arrogant manners! His scout came from the north, by the way.

In 3520BC, our scout meets this...uh, woman (I hesitate to call this horrible creature "woman", as it is an insult to humankind):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_3520bc.jpg

The gods want to punish me for my dreams, it seems - only lunatics and ugly women live in this world. This trend continues when we find another strange person: A man who wears artificial hair on his head and a strange mustache.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_3190bc.jpg

"handsomest and best-dressed ruler"?!? Am I having nightmares again?

And last but not least, we meet a religious woman who would have the potential to look good - if only she wouldn't bear such an arrogant look on her face...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_3040bc.jpg

*sigh* Reality can be harsh...Anyways, I have trained a worker by now, who successfully managed to put the cattle to good use. He is now trying to do the same to the elephants nearby, although his first experiments involving lassos and funny hats didn't quite work out. We shall give him a bit more time, though.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_2800bc.jpg

Meeting all these crazy people has made me very tired. At least I've finally found our little brother! I will make sure he's fine and won't get bullied by the others, although his somewhat maniacal behavior still makes me nervous. We shal see...I will rest now. I almost wish I will have one of those dreams again, because compared to reality they cannot really be called nightmares after all. At least the women look good there...

-Romulus

I've permutated the roster a bit so that not the same people have to play the first turns again. ;)

Roster:
Kylearan
Bede -> UP NOW
T-hawk -> on deck
theGrimm
Sirian
Atlas


-Kylearan

But it looks like Remus has gone slightly mad in the time I wasn't able to watch over him - he calls himself "Monty the Mad" and wears silly feathers and a skull on his head now! While I appreciate his aggressive way of thinking, his behavior also makes me a bit nervous. He seems to be a bit schizophrenic, as he sometimes forgets that I'm his big brother...hope that he won't cause any trouble.



I don't know if you could have picked a worse civ for your "brother"...

I suspect this is going to be a blast to watch. :lol:

This is a fine kettle of fish you've caught for us :) Horroshow!! Time to brew some chai and polish the bovver boots.

Two queens, or is that three, and a poofter in a breastplate! Not to mention a Little Brother who should be living in an attic where he can pull wings off flies undisturbed.

Got it for tonight.

Monty? This. Is. Bad.

Then again, if we can get Monty to Friendly (anyone have some insight on how hard that might be), and we keep him welled teched, we can rely on him to defend himself.

There's a variant rule that concerns me, though. How do we ensure he wins BY SPACESHIP?

And him having, uh, unclean thoughts about his very own sister? The thought made him feel deeply ashamed (but a little aroused as well...)



I'm concerned by the sort of fiction you appear to read....

Thanks for switching the roster. Hopefully I can finished Adventure 13 AND this this week, but if not, I'll give priority to this.

yes really, goal should be get 'friendly' with monty the mad now so lil brother doesn;t go ape #$%^#$% on your @#%@#%^ :D

All really you are missing is swap out vicky for mr. khan and you have the love boat

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/liquidated/tedlangeisaacloveboatjd.jpg

Cheers!
-Liq

Argh!!! 50 points and one of 'lil brothers "walks" to anyone who can make a decent dotmap of that shambles...

Hi,

Argh!!! 50 points and one of 'lil brothers "walks" to anyone who can make a decent dotmap of that shambles...
We will have a wider view of our surroundings after the next turnset, maybe that will make it easier. The first warrior I had sent east to 'circumnavigate the globe', to get a feel how wide the map is, but we already have a second warrior mapping out our immediate surroundings. I sent him counter-clockwise around Rome, and he's healing from a fight against some lions right now, but will be able to continue scouting in a turn or two.

I also suggest going for Bronze Working after The Wheel. With this lot around us, it's never too early to have access to axemen... :crazyeye:

-Kylearan

There's a variant rule that concerns me, though. How do we ensure he wins BY SPACESHIP?

We go Sherlock Holmes. We make everything else impossible, so whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

If he's Friendly with us, he can't get conquest. If he actually gets big enough to threaten domination or a diplomatic self-vote, we should be getting ourselves big enough to counter that. (We can abstain rather than voting for him. Although Monty winning by diplomacy would be hilarious.) And the AIs never go for culture. So that leaves space, with the only unstoppable threat to that being time.

Did Kylearan enable Permanent Alliances? That would be an appropriate rule for this game, I think.

I don't see a lot of rivers near us, but there is one to the north. I would look there for second city site. (Rivers transform any ice in to flood plains, any flat tundra in to farmable lands, although the oases will not appear next to a river and a couple of those can be a big deal, too).

- Sirian

This is a fine kettle of fish you've caught for us :) Horroshow!! Time to brew some chai and polish the bovver boots.

Gdey ty zauchil eti slova?

Monty the Lil' Bro, by spaceship. It truely is a fantasy realm.

Romulus lies unquietly under the stars, undisturbed by incubi, but fretting about the surrounding lands full of lions


http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24006.jpg

(The lions run away and the villagers pay us gold to go away)

and bears

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24003.jpg

(This fellow does not survive his encounter with ursus horribilis.)

and wolves (The wolves were guarding a village full of maps and did not survive their encounter with the warrior) and at least one fellow who looks like Robin Hood, wearing the green of the forest and carrying a curved stick with a string


http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24021.jpg


.....and Litttle Brother Monte.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24012.jpg

Little Brother has fallen in with bad companions. His closest friend is Alex, while he remains less than impressed by the others on the playground. And a fellow in a turban was lurking in the shadows by the fence to the north....carrying a scimitar!

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24008.jpg

The Princess to the east is building towards us and founded Buddhism and the dude in the turban is a Hindu

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24014.jpg


This world is a crazy, dangerous place, said Romulus. And we are in the middle of it, no matter which direction we go. North is south and south is north, west becomes east and east becomes west. It is without metes and bounds. It warps. To the north are the Hindu Arabs, to the east the fast expanding Buddhist Spanish, and Monte is palling around with a sociopath!

Our scientific efforts were for naught as no copper was discovered nearby, though we have adopted Slavery. The Romans were training a settler to build a town in the pastures of plenty to the north

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24004.jpg

(but go far enough and it becomes south) with a river and floodplains for hamlets for our farmers and deer for our hunters. But the appearance of Robin Hood from the south and two of his merry men from the north forced a hiatus.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24018.jpg

This one is dead and the victorious warrior is headed back south towards Rome. A second of Robin's merry band however is lurking in the weeds 'tween him and home, however

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24022.jpg

The settler is waiting for his escort to get his club or for the two explorers to draw the trespassers away. But he probably needs his escort anyway and Rome needs a guard.

We could immediately whip the warrior for one and the settler for one more so there is a decision to make before proceeding. I wanted to present you all with a finished settler ready to head north but Robin Hood forces a change in plans.

And the scientists have started Agriculture but have yet no beakers invested.

Robin Hood should go stealing from the rich, not from the tribe last in score. :mad: And little bro' is pleased with Alex?! *sigh*

I think Freud would love this place.


Roster:
Kylearan
Bede
T-hawk -> UP NOW
theGrimm -> on deck
Sirian
Atlas


-Kylearan

Got it, though I managed to come up at the same time in RB25 as well. Should have enough time Tuesday night for both games.

Do we have an exact location picked out for our first settler? Also, do we want to aim for any wonder-style openings (Stonehenge, Oracle, Pyramids)?

I'm very much liking the looks of Due North of the Deer, which nets all three flood plains, both livestock, the whole river, and is not settling toward our brother. Can you say Research Center? Ox Ford? Cha-Ching? :whipped:


- Sirian

I must warn you; the barbs in my games always walk around the warriors fortified on forested hills to plunder my improvements. We have no copper nearby, either. And I'm up next.

Skip archery in favour of agriculture at your own peril! Or tell me what names you call Robin Hood's men to get them to attack you rather than your cattle. Or whip me a praet before my turn starts.

Duh - you guys restarted? From my quick read of the thread, it sounds like you restarted because the map was a bit tight and Catherine was already well in the lead. Where there any other reasons ... say, Sirian miscounting his turn set even though that is one of his pet hates (RB20!)? :lol:

Game ahoy. Kylearan didn't say how many turns to go, so I'll see when a good stopping point arises. And sorry everyone, but I'm really not in the mood for an in-character roleplaying report. Nothin' here but us game mechanics.

The build order looks good, warrior - settler - warrior. Nothing jumps out at me as being more important than Agriculture, so we'll go ahead with that.

And now that I see it for myself, Sirian's suggested spot just north of the deer is a no-brainer. Three food resources, three flood plains, river, and wines. :eek:

==========

Between turns, a barb archer pops up south of Rome. :eek: OK, pause Agriculture for Archery.

2170 BC (1) -- Between turns, two more barb warriors pop up! :eek: One's in the north and our northern warrior will try to catch him. The other is next to the archer in the south.

2140 BC (2) -- Between turns, we finish a warrior. I order Rome to work two lake tiles (plus the cow). It will finish the settler in 3 turns, and finish Archery in 5. I'm not sure if we can send the settler out without an archer escort.

2110 BC (3) interturn, the northern barb warrior attacks ours on flatland. The coin flip favors us and we win!

2050 BC (5) interturn, the settler finishes. Rome has two turns before it can start an archer, so it puts a few shields into another warrior.

2020 BC (6): I think the settler has got a clear enough path around the left side of the lake to make it to our city site. The northern warrior will rendezvous with him on the way.

Worker has finished mining and roading the hill. I move him to the forest hill at the southeast side of Rome's fat cross, to chop the forest towards the archer.

1990 BC (7) -- Uh oh.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/12437/rb24-1990bc.jpg

Spain has beaten us to our city site!! :mad: :mad:

Now where do we go? That resource cluster just east of Rome looks very nice... but Spain's got control THERE TOO!

Between turns, Archery finished and Agriculture ordered. I'll let the current warrior finish as then the forest chop will come in timed for the archer.

Well, over the next few turns the warriors poke around some more to discover some more land.

1900 BC (10) interturn, a warrior on a 75% defense tile loses to an attacking barb archer at 34%. :mad: But our settler escort warrior (fortunately!) beats off a barb warrior attacking at 3.4%.

1870 BC (11): The city of Antium is founded.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/12437/rb24-1870bc.jpg

I'm not entirely happy with the location, but it's the best I could do. Only one resource, sheep in the first ring, but two flood plains in the second ring and six river tiles. It's OK for it to be off the river given our Expansive trait. And it's got good spacing with Rome. Finally, its location should be just about right to avoid Close Borders tension with our darling little brother.

The forest chop comes in this turn to complete Rome's archer.

1840 BC (12): Rome has just reached size 4, and has the archer on defense, so I feel safe ordering up another settler. We gotta grab de land fast, boss.

1780 BC (14) interturn - a rookie warrior beats an attacking barb warrior but only gets 1 XP.

1750 BC (15): I guess this is a round-ish number (it was in Civ 3), so I'll stop here. Agriculture is due this turn so we can decide what we want to do next.

Little Bro is still friends with Alex, somehow. Maybe they made contact first, so they have a larger fractional "years of peace" bonus?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/12437/Romulus_BC-1750.Civ4SavedGame

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/12437/rb24-1750bc.jpg

If we can get them, I suggest red, orange, and yellow dots in that order. There's no copper within a zillion miles, so we need to secure the Horses if at all possible. Red could also be 1W but I like it on that hill. Orange would be nice to pick up two food resources and further nail down a tensionless border between us and Little Bro. Yellow is just your average site to get a food resource and maybe a horse and could certainly be moved. There's really nothing reachable and worthwhile in the north beyond Antium, and if there is, Little Bro will beat us to it.

So first the lions and bears and wolves are protecting huts and now the barbarian warriors are escorting Isabella's settlers.....Fantasy Realm indeed, just not ours!

I do believe that's me up! And this is a "got it". Oh, I DO so hope Issy picks on little bro...go on Issy...you know you want to.

Edit:
It'll be at least 12 hours before I can play. In the meantime, I'm open to suggestions. I can't see ANYTHING more pressing to research than iron working. Other than that, I'll try and settle a spot or two.

Little Bro is still friends with Alex, somehow. Maybe they made contact first, so they have a larger fractional "years of peace" bonus?


lurker's comment: IMHO it's the "warmonger's respect" in action

Romulus stumbled to the door, bruising numerous body parts in alphabetical order during his dazed stumble through the hut to his door. It had been a particularly good dream of his sister, Cathy. Only there was no Cathy, only some ungodly banging on his door late in the night.

As Romulus opened the door, he was greeted by an interesting site. In front of him, was what looked like a large stone basket. Inside, was something on fire. As the flames licked at his door posts, he glanced quickly around for something to smother the flames, and finding nothing on hand, he hurriedly stamped at the flames.

They went out quickly enough, but to his disgust, the flaming substance appeared to cattle dung. Which now covered his shoes, and the door posts. And his welcome mat.

The immediate danger past, Romulus scanned the surrounding area. Some way away, in the trees, a flurry of movement and some insane giggling greeted his attempts to discern the perpetrator of this crime. He briefly considered giving chase, but the state of his shoes made him reconsider. Besides, the trail of singed feathers leading from his door was evidence enough.

The next morning, having cleaned the mess, Romulus sat examining the stone basket. Which turned out to be half a part basket, and zero part stone…

****

Turn Report:

-1750BC - Preturn check: All looks good, but I pause the settler at Rome for another archer and allow Rome to gather food in the meantime. No way that settler is going off without an archer escorh while Robin and his merry men run amock.

-1702BC - Agriculture finishes, and I order up Pottery so our cities have something to build besides archers. Cottages could also begin to be useful soon, once our worker finished his road to Antium and the pasture.

-1690BC – ‘lil bro has discovered the One True Religion: Judaism (Disclaimer: Neither RB, Civfanatics, nor the members of this save game,intend to imply in any way that there is one true religion, and respect people of ALL religions. No religions will be harmed in the playing of this game.)
This probably means, sigh, that Issy will declare religious war. Sigh. Probably on us. Sigh. Sirian can have his spot after all, and we don’t even need to build a Settler.

-1630BC Robin and his merry men run around in the woods NE of Rome. An archer was in Rome, with the second ready to whip, but Robin spent the next few 1000 years playing ring-a-ring-a-rosie in the forest.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/35362/rb24_1660bc_drunken_robin.JPG

-1510BC (turn 8) – My second archer completes and a settler continues. The archer heads to T-Hawks site so long.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/35362/rb24_1510bc_archerscout.JPG

-1450BC – Whip the settler as soon as I am able. Start another archer in Rome.

-1420BC – Pottery comes in, begin Iron Working. Horses are a fallback plan, but with Praets we can BE big brother…not just pretend. And I’m putting money on Issy declaring soon after we adopt Judaism. (It’s South African money, so it isn’t worth much.)

-1360BC – Antium is founded, but not on the hill. There’s no significant difference in the tiles offered over the long term, but the deciding factor was the extra hill. The cows are there sooner, but chances are pretty good it won’t be improved before the culture grows.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/35362/rb24_1360bc_city3_site.JPG

-I ended my turn in 1300, but I’ve left Sirian a dilemma. <hides head in shame> Robin finally came out of his trees and threatens our ivory!! Clearly, he’s been pumping iron, ‘cos Robin is a combat 1 Robin. I considering challenging him for the ivory, but the odds are (checks) 31% in our favour.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/35362/rb24_1300bc_robinsucks.JPG
We’re hardly using the ivory tile, and the happiness limit isn’t an issue yet, so we can stand to lose it for now. I’ve also brought an extra warrior, and an archer is due to finish in a turn, so Rome is safe. But we should try and protect the cattle.
Beware of another combat 1 Robin SW of Cumae…

Here’s a shot of our empire, for those who would like to see it:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/35362/rb24_1300bc_empire.JPG

And here’s our game:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/35362/Romulus_BC-1300.Civ4SavedGame

I'm not sure what the etiquette is with situations like this, but I feel pretty bad about the situation I left Sirian to deal with. But I played 15 turns, and I prefer to leave him with options than to use them all up.

If I made a mistake, I'm willing to learn from it.

As for allowing that archer there in the first place, well... after he'd spent 13 turns running in circles, I sure didn't expect him to suddenly change his mind...

1W of my red dot is fine, I did say the city could go to either spot. Actually now I just noticed that my red dot is on fresh water and the chosen site isn't, but since we're Expansive that's not likely to really matter.

I say just attack now with the current archer. If we win, great. If not, it's going to take two archers to beat Robin no matter what, so the to-be-produced archer can clean up. And if we attack now, the unit _might_ stop to heal rather than pillage the cattle. I'm sure Sirian knows what to do anyway. :)

Good luck with little brother.
My efforts in making him a friendly neighbour ended up
in a nuclear war with the other continent.
Next time I'll bury him early.

I'd suggest moving the archer into the woods and fortifying him there. Hopefully the barb archer will attack it; if not then no loss.

Nice turnset, and a funny read too! :lol:

Don't feel bad about leaving Sirian with that decision. Declaring war or making major deals on one's last turn are considered not to be good manners in an SG, but in this case it was not your fault Combat I Robin (:lol:) decided to move to that spot on your last turn. Also if you would attack, Sirian had to live with the consequences whatever that might be, so it's even better to let him decide. ;)


I will have more detailed comments on our current game situation tomorrow morning (in about sixteen hours), when I will be able to load the save again.


Roster:
Kylearan
Bede
T-hawk
theGrimm
Sirian -> UP NOW
Atlas -> on deck


-Kylearan

I've got it. I should be able to play today.

:mischief:

1300BC: I take three actions on the Inherited Turn:

1. Switch research to Mysticism.
2. HALT work on the Sheep Road.
3. Advance all units toward the intruders.


The options look pretty clear to me:
A. Attack, losing the Archer -and- the camp. (This is my luck we're talking about, remember.)
B. Move our Archer in the forest, and thereafter lose the camp and the first attacker (which will be a Warrior).
C. Go in to denial (this is a Fantasy Realm after all) and report a "tall tale" about how the enemy turned and fled after we did nothing at all.


Right. So Option B it is.


http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/8083/rb24-sirian-2.jpg

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/8083/rb24-sirian-3.jpg

We lost the camp and the 1XP Warrior. Anybody not happy with that is going to have to take it up with our Little Brother. (I consulted him on strategy. He's the one who suggested to wait and strike with overwhelming force in attack position. ... I'm kind of liking the Montezuma Doctrine. Aren't you?)



1210BC: We are CONNECTED to our little brother's empire via a combination of road-river-lake-river.

:woohoo: :D :woohoo:


1150BC: Incoming hostiles on the slightly underdefended SW frontier. They, however, are undermanned.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/8083/rb24-sirian-4.jpg

Note the proof of connection in the lower right. (Judaism spread to us, plzplzplzplzplz!) :worship:


Middle turns: Granary whippings left and right. One Obelisk whipping.

A third enemy unit has added a third XP to our SW archer.

Our lone worker did the Connection Road, the Sheep Road, then a Farm:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/8083/rb24-sirian-5.jpg

(white, yellow, white dots)

Note I did not bother to reconnect the Ivory yet.


925BC: Today, I can actually count to fifteen. (Um... yay?)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/8083/rb24-sirian-6.jpg

There is no excuse not to whip a granary first in every city.


I parked our spare Archer on the eastern border, covering the camp remnants. Might be a good idea to pair him up with a settler during next player's round, though. I felt that Obelisks and Barracks simply could not wait. Thus the pit stop to Mysticism and the inward focus. We need to be mindful of the NEED to advance on to Meditation pretty much in synch with the arrival of Judaism, so we can take charge of spreading Little Brother's marvelous faith, not only to our own lands, but top priority on getting them to another AI or two, as in the warmongerish types like Alex and maybe France, so that brother can have some decent friends out there.

We have a LOT of open space to the south, so let's not make the mistake of overplanning for a war with Spain that may, in fact, NOT occur. (I mean, yeah, if it happens: :hammer: But what if it doesn't? We can't risk Little Monty's future on something that chancy! Besides, he may LIKE fiery women. Let's not rule out a Monty-Izzy love affair just yet. Not unless she spurns his advances.)

Rome is set to grow the same turn it completes the Barracks.
If Settler or Worker is next build item, the one unhappy face won't matter.
And it will be erased once the Camp is rebuilt -- or some Anger fades.

We really do need another couple of Workers, but we also need another couple of cities. Next two players have some Interesting Times(TM) ahead.

At least I am handing off a stable military and economic situation.


Now for the most glorious part of my round: Little Monty's BIRTHDAY! :cooool:

We invited him over for a surprise party. He arrived looking kind of glum:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/8083/rb24-sirian-7.jpg

I threw some steaks on the barbie, however, and then showed Monty the WAGON TRAIN of beef :eek: ready to travel home with him. :cool:

That cheered him right on up. :D

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/8083/rb24-sirian-8.jpg

I do so love to put a smile on Monty's face.
I also told him his headdress feathers were looking particularly crisp. :goodjob:


Oh One More Thing(TM):

Any resources that Monty lacks, that we don't have at least two sources of? Um, yep. Don't be getting attached to those in your future economic plans. (Do the math. You'll figure out what I'm implying!)

Oh. Any anybody who touches MY birthday gift to Monty, our very first gift, with the idea of, like, CANCELLING it or anything, is going to be strung up by his 3@!!$ in the deepest darkest dungeons of Rome. ... For all eternity. ... Capice? :whipped:


The Save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/8083/Romulus_BC-0925.Civ4SavedGame)


- Sirian

Good move on the obelisks...culture is usually a problem for Rome. Also, well spotted on the trade route to Monty, I missed it.


At least I am handing off a stable military and economic situation.

:whipped:
;)


let's not make the mistake of overplanning for a war with Spain that may, in fact, NOT occur

Hmmm. Aggressive religious nut Isabella is the founder of Buddism. Aggressive lil bro is the founder of Judasim...OUR religion of choice. Isabella is aggressive on a good day, but in this fantasy world, she's aggresive squared. Be afraid.

But I agree. :) I think we should expand while the opportunity exists, not rely on taking Spanish land.

Any resources that Monty lacks, that we don't have at least two sources of? Um, yep. Don't be getting attached to those in your future economic plans. (Do the math. You'll figure out what I'm implying!)

- Sirian

Monty lacks...at least two...DON't have...lacks...two...at least two...one...

Argh. I need to go lie down.

Monty lacks. Got that.
At least two. Got that. >= 2.
NOT "At least two". NOT >=2. So, smaller than 2. < 2?
Smaller than 2 is 1. (or zero, or -1)
But we can't give away 0 or -1 or -2...
So...1. One. Uno.

So...if Monty lacks the resource...and we have only 1...we should give it to him? (But if we have two...and he doesn't, we can keep it? Nope, that's not in the spirit of the variant, either.)

I'd ask lil bro, but he doesn't seem the intellectual type, either. What a pair we make!

Argh. I need to go lie down.

:)

Good turns, Sirian. I'll borrow Kylearan's roster:

Kylearan -> on deck
Bede
T-hawk
theGrimm
Sirian
Atlas -> UP NOW

Oooh, I'm so jealous of you Sirian...you were the first to gift our little brother something for his birthday! :cool: Now I have to think hard about how to top this... :king:

-Kylearan

Got it- now that was :whipped: the cows, tell Lil' bro not "to have a cow man" and set Lizzy on the barbie? Not sure I understand, but Lil' Bro will certainly explain it :)

"AM I MY BROTHER'S KEEPER"

"YES I AM"

The sage of the Brothers Romulus and Monty continues, Monty has has just released his most recent film, something about a Jewish Carpenter :dunno: what will come of it (Monothesim is know by all the civs with religion at least, but Christianity still unfounded). Robin and his merry men continue to rome the wilds of Rome. Monty (aka Lil' Bro) is currently dominating in score, while Romulus is currently...

Lil' Bro is currently out to five cities, just look at him grow, he may be bigger than his older brother someday, keep eating that beef.

T0-IW in 21 turns.

T2- The merry men approach Cumae.... and

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/5496/civ4screenshot0000mg2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

T3- perish. Fortunately for us, I found THE Sheriff of Nottingham and Sir Guy of Gisbourne too, they will help deal with the problems.

T4 Lizzy comes asking for open borders... not now, let me consult with little Monty, he is annoyed with her so no. She of course has writing.

T5-Rome grows and barracks finish, what to build next, archer, worker and settler would all be useful. I choose settler (did I choose wisely ;) ) only time will tell. Thoughts on where Philadelphia (duh what else would you name it??) could go

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/4849/philadelphiasl2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/3581/philadelphia2ml5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

T6- More of the barb tango.

T8- Jumbos are back up.

730-Stonehenge is built.

T15- Unhappiness wears off from Antium whips, but the Gift to Lil' Bro brings one unhappy face back.

Antium is tenatively set for a worker, but nothing is yet invested. Cumae is going to finish that oblisk and should then build a granary. I had a worker building a road to it, but stopped it cause go-to can make you :mad: , but you may want to continue it and then improve some of those tile. The tiles it is currently working are just plain offensive. Without more workers the next city or 2 will probably take our economy close the edge, 50% depending on distance etc. Most of this turn was waiting for happiness to where off so another round of whips can occur and preping a bit for the next player. Now that Lizzy in bordering us in in the East I would recommend moving the Sheriff to the North of the county. Lil' Bro is currently out to five cities, just look at him grow, he may be bigger than his older brother someday, keep eating that beef.

We do have some problems here guys, first of all (we all know it, but have been afraid to say it), Lil' Brother is a little weird. I mean if it were just the headress made of feathers, and the never wearing a shirt thing I don't think most folks would mind, but it is the talk about sacraficing 50,000 slaves and wearing a shrunked skull on his head that does disturbe some people. Understandable, but we know that he is really just a passionate guy and totally likeable if you are just nice to him, well, I still don't have the whole story, but I guess the other day Lil' brother was hanging out with everybody and Izzy, Sally, and Vicky said some mean things to him, and it was upsetting, I guess Alex and Louis stood up a little bit for Monty, but anyway, Monty is a bit peeved at some folks over the whole incident, so keep your eye on the situation, we don't want anybody's feelings to get hurt or to get their cities razed :lol:

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/2848/feelingsog9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And you thoung Bro was happy at seeing all that beef, well I found an even bigger creature for him. So... everybody together you now you know the words- "Happy Birthday to you, Happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear Monty, happy birthday to you" Now blow out the candles on that grilled hunk of elephant.

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/9318/happybdaypd0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/64087/Romulus_BC-0700.Civ4SavedGame

Monty first and we last in score...yuk. We are supposed to be Big Brother! Let's see what I can do during my turns to that end. I will have some thoughts about long-term goals, wonders etc. too, or so I hope...

Got it.

-Kylearan

Monty first and we last in score...yuk. We are supposed to be Big Brother! Let's see what I can do during my turns to that end. I will have some thoughts about long-term goals, wonders etc. too, or so I hope.
Our starts have been ... lack luster. The solution is normally just to whip and whip, but we had to wear off the :mad: faces. Fantasy Realm is an interesting map script, gone are acres and acres of grassland or floodplains, every city will get between 25% and 50% dead tiles, that just changes everything.

It seems that we are just destined to be brother to the strongest civ, but that is good 'cause we don't want to win :), I got a feeling that the fortunes of both brothers will improve :yup:.

Any resources that Monty lacks, that we don't have at least two sources of? Um, yep. Don't be getting attached to those in your future economic plans. (Do the math. You'll figure out what I'm implying!)

Oh. Any anybody who touches MY birthday gift to Monty

A question... Do we need to continue this gift for eternity if Little Brother gets cows of his own? And if not, is there any way to see if/when he gets the resource other than temporarily canceling the deal to see if it can be re-gifted?

A question... Do we need to continue this gift for eternity if Little Brother gets cows of his own? And if not, is there any way to see if/when he gets the resource other than temporarily canceling the deal to see if it can be re-gifted?

I'll have a cow, man, if you touch the Cows. :aargh: :nono: :mad:

Besides, if Monty gets his own Cows source, he could then trade it away for something else useful.

We probably should not do that with every resource type. Some deals can be cancelled, for instance, to set up a return flow of goods (a trade).


What we might do is to designate a "duration" on gifts. The game mechanics do not offer an easy in-game method, but we could just do it ourselves manually. For instance, "Cows For Life", "Ivory for 60 turns", "Sheep until you have something good to trade to us for it", etc.


Also, when a deal is CANCELLED, it resets its value on the "You have supplied us with resources" meter. If the primary purpose of a gift or trade deal is for diplo bonus, then DO NOT TOUCH THE BLOODY THING. That's my understanding of how it is supposed to be working.


- Sirian

The desire to heap little brother with gifts is only natural. He's just so cute, so nutty...those puppy dog eyes are hard to resist.

But it is the responsibility of a dutiful older brother to protect his younger brother, and if we do not eat our veggies, we will not be able to protect little bro, say, when Izzy goes all nutso.

The variant rules only require that we supply little brother with whatever strategic resources he does not have. (Unless he asks nicely, of course). I have no problem with giving birthday presents to Monty, but if we volunteer EVERY strategic resource that he does not have and we have only one of, we will remain little brother forever.

Practically speaking, we can do without the cows. There's enough beef in Rome to keep us all happy eventually, and we're a good healthy people anyway. But let us be wary of falling in to the trap that many parents fall into, and that is to give their children all they desire, and thus spoil them rotten and ruin them forever.

Woe is us, all that Monty and Romulus have in this world anymore is each other. As the older brother, let us exercise the path of wisdom.

(In laymans terms, don't give all the good stuff away while we're last in score next to nutso Izzy).

Edit:
I wanted to suggest that the duration of per turn gifts be set that of the next players turns. But remember, if we give, and then take away, Monty's people might become angry. So let's go easy on the giving of our only resources, m'kay?

I do hate to quibble over semantics, but here's the rule in question:

Any strategic resources he lacks, we must offer to supply to him. We will take whatever he offers in return. If that's not good enough, just GIVE it to him (we may renegotiate the deal later).

It's a cut-and-paste from the Civ 3 rules, and includes the important qualifier "strategic". In Civ 3, this referred specifically to military resources like horses and iron, and excluded luxury (happiness) resources. In the Civ 3 games, the player was obligated to provide Little Bro with horses and iron by any means necessary, but there was no such requirement for luxury resources. I'd read the intent to not be that the players must always surrender their only source of a particular happiness or health resource to Little Bro. We don't need to cripple ourselves that way.

The cow gift is fine, for the long-term diplomatic plus. But future non-strategic resource gifts aren't compulsory or locked in to any particular time period longer than the game itself enforces.

There's no use cancelling just to turn around and re-gift, though. (And we have to gift something if we can). So until we get to Currency and can gift small doses of cash, or get Open Borders and can gift units, the resources are the only gift we can offer.


- Sirian

There's no use cancelling just to turn around and re-gift, though. (And we have to gift something if we can). So until we get to Currency and can gift small doses of cash, or get Open Borders and can gift units, the resources are the only gift we can offer.
This was exactly my problem. Of course if we had open borders we would still need to have units to be able to gift something ;), right now we have about 3.

@Everybody- note that once little brother gets construction Ivory will be a strategic resource ;) .

Hi,

I'm posting this from a friend's house, as our internet connection has broken down. Telco technicians said they will have fixed it in a couple of hours - I hope they are right. I will go to sleep now, and try to post my turnset and save tomorrow. Sorry for the delay!

-Kylearan

Hi,

I'm back online again, yay.

I do hate to quibble over semantics
Liar! :p :lol:

Any strategic resources he lacks, we must offer to supply to him. We will take whatever he offers in return. If that's not good enough, just GIVE it to him (we may renegotiate the deal later).
It's a cut-and-paste from the Civ 3 rules, and includes the important qualifier "strategic".
No it's not a cut-and-paste from the Civ 3 rules. The original rules lacked the word "strategic" which I added for exactly the reasons you mentioned. :rolleyes:

-Kylearan

Reviewing the diplomatic situation, I see that our little brother is on pleased terms with Alex and Louis. Both know Writing already, so I sign open border agreements with them. Too bad the Monty himself doesn't like us enough yet to do the same! He's annoyed with us, but that should change soon once he's eaten enough of our beef.

Then, I take a look at the power graph.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_700bc.jpg

This is not good! We are last in power while our little brother, annoyed with us, is first! I don't want him to declare war on us, so I will try to build up some military during my turns even if that will slow down expansion somewhat. Big brothers have to make clear that they are the BIG brother so that the little brothers won't get funny ideas!

I also decide to burn our cash now to get Iron Working and then Writing faster. Science gets increased to 100%.


In 655BC, Iron Working comes in, and of course we don't have iron in our borders yet. :rolleyes:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_655bc.jpg

Our newly produced settler will claim the iron south of Cumae, and Neapolis gets founded in 595BC one tile southeast of the iron (it will have pigs and deer too once borders will have expanded).


Convinced by our resource shipments, Monty went to cautious in 580BC and we were able to sign open borders with him! :clap: He finally seems to realize who we are...

Izzy is a bit on the slow side though, and doesn't seem to know this. She actually demanded this from us:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_535bc.jpg

Woman, are you mad?!? :spank: Of course I decline and send her away sulking.


I wanted to have Writing at the end of my turnset, so Rome worked some lake tiles for the extra commerce for some time. After Writing came in, I started us on Alphabet next.

On my last turn the Pyramids get BIDL, and little bro' founds Confucianism in Tlaxcala! Let's see what religion he will follow long-term...

For his birthday, he gets a toy solder from me. :D

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_475bc.jpg

Have fun with it, little brother! But be careful not to break your new toy, okay? :mischief:

I have built a worker during my turns and started another, which will be finished in a couple of turns. We probably need more though.

I also build some archers, but we will need more of those too. We are increasing in power and will be second last soon, but that's not enough I guess - although Monty seems to have lost a unit and dropped to second place now, behind Victoria.

We hurt for happiness, so I suggest to cancel the ivory deal to Monty if Atlas approves. Little brother is strong enough already, I think.

Where should our next settler go? My suggestion would be to claim another iron in case Monty needs one.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_475_map1.jpg

This would also grab wines, a happiness resource we desperately need. An archer is on its way to scout the region more.

An alternative site would be here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/23498/rb24_475_map2.jpg

This would claim a second horse resource, deer and pig.


After Rome has built a settler, I suggest building a library next. Our research rate is awful! For this reason, how about going for Literature next and build the Great Library? With so few cottages around, its power is even greater than normal. This would also get our great person production going.

-Kylearan

Oh, and I forgot the roster:

Roster:
Kylearan
Bede -> UP NOW
T-hawk -> on deck
theGrimm
Sirian
Atlas

We hurt for happiness, so I suggest to cancel the ivory deal to Monty if Atlas approves. Little brother is strong enough already, I think.
Sure cancel away, Open borders (and later currency) make Lil' Brother's B-Day so much easier. He is very difficult to buy for :mischief:.

Got it for Tuesday morning.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24_004.jpg

Romulus returns from touring the outposts of empire and finds Li'l Bro waiting in the the throne room, digging in the dirt with his toes and doing that thing with the back of his head

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24_007.jpg

Thinks "He looks embarrassed. Hmm, wonder what the problem is? And mother should do something about those lice, it's probably from the chicken feather headress" but says "Yo, Bro' whassup?"

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24_005.jpg

Monte looks up at him from under that skull and mutters something about "those elephants".

"Speak up, youngster, I can't hear what you are saying"

"It's those elephants, Rommie. I can't ride them, they smell bad, I can't eat them because I can't kill them, and the poop, pounds of poop all over, tons of poop, in the gardens and everywhere. I know they were a birthday present from you but I can't do anything with them, and I told you I wanted a pony!"

"The little brat", thinks Romulus, "and calling me Rommie, too! And that defiant look in his eye."

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24_003.jpg

"Calm down little brother", says Romulus, "let's see what I can do about this. Have you tried hiring an Indian to teach you how to ride them? You could go on tiger hunts with Alex then"

"There aren't any Indians", said Monte. And now his lower lip begins to tremble.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24_001.jpg

That is Not a Good Sign.

Just then the chamberlain reminds Romulus that the Imperial Stud was now in operation, so Monte could have his pony.

"How about this, Monte? I'll take the elephants and give them to the Imperial Riding School, and meanwhile you can have your pony. What do think about that?"

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24_006.jpg

That is as close to a smile as Romulus has ever seen on his brother's face. "Oh our sainted mother, why did she burden me with a psychopath for a brother!" muses Romulus

"Rommie, you are a peach. And by the way, don't trust that little witch, Isabella, she's been calling me names again"

Monte runs out of the palace to claim his mount and whips off into the distance, shouting "Yeeahh, Alex, I got the pony!!!"

The northern exploration reveals a nest of barbarians who claim the archer, and wound the Sheriff, who has now come full circle.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24_008b.jpg

A second archer is dispatched to keep watch over the nearest barbarian town

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24_008a.jpg

While the settler is sent to the southern spot for more horses, pigs and another deer camp

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24_002.jpg

The iron is online so Praetorians are abuilding to go knock out the barb infestation and to start a demonstration on the Spanish borders.

South of Neapolis (or north of Antium as the archer in the lower right corner is The Sheriff healing north of the second barb town north of Antium)

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24_009.jpg

And the southern view

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/RB24/RB24_008.jpg

Use the barbarian towns to train up the Praetorians! And it looks like Little Bro is starting to push on the northwest.

I did not start a library in Rome as I felt more archer defense is needed in the north and the cottages by the lake need to mature a little before it is worth it. Another settler or two for the northlands would also be handy. And we are still a worker or two short.

Monty riding on a pony through Aztecan streets full of elephant poop? :crazyeye: Thanks for that image. :lol:


Now that we have praetorians at our disposal, I feel a lot more safe (and I can certainly understand the desire to delay the library in favor of more protection). Now the aggressive AIs can come if they really want trouble.

Nobody commented on my proposal to build the Great Library, so I guess that's what we aim for next. Question is, do we try to get a great person before, or wait for the great scientists from the Great Library?


Roster:
Kylearan
Bede
T-hawk -> UP NOW
theGrimm -> on deck
Sirian
Atlas

-Kylearan

I must confess, this map doesn't seem to offer any obvious One Right Path. :) I hate to say it, but I'm a little lost with regards to the way forward. I can see lots of "could works", but no "big plan".

The Great Library does seem to be one of the better "could works", though, as it will improve our research situation significantly. Great Scientists, and an academy, would be welcome.

I can't see any immediate benifits of a Great Person, though...

I'll crack open the game tonight an mull over it for a few hours; maybe I'll come up with something more helpful to add.

Hi,

I must confess, this map doesn't seem to offer any obvious One Right Path.
Yep, which is a Good Thing. :) But the more important it is to discuss which path to follow. If there's no obvious Right Path, nothing is more dangerous in an SG than having no plan, losing focus and every player playing all by himself.


Given the variant rules and our Organized trait, I think claiming as much land as possible is a good idea, although we have to make sure our military keeps up with our expansion - but now that we have praetorians, this doesn't really worry me anymore.

With fewer cottages than usual, the Great Library will be more powerful than on other map types. On the other hand, academies lose some of their power, as I don't see one of our cities to become a full-fledged research city. They won't hurt either, though. :p


After Literature, what tech path should we follow next? It should be either Currency for the extra trade route or Monarchy for Hereditary Rule and wineries in my opinion. Mid-term, we could go for Music for the great artist and Notre Dame (more happiness!), but a beeline to CS would also be okay (although a bit too conventional for my taste).


Remember that once we know Alphabet, we have to offer our techs to Monty at the end of our turns and take whatever he's willing to give us for them!

-Kylearan

Ah, the humble beginnings of The Plan. Somewhere out there are aliens. Deadly, dangerous aliens who would like nothing more than to wipe out all mankind.

There is only one answer. And that is to ensure that the first human they meet...is our crazy lunatic lovable brother Monty, who is guaranteed to scare the living hell out of them.

And so The Plan shall be...The Land Grab? Get loads of land, protect it, make it pretty. Or at least bounteous.

In that case, techs (and wonders) that offer a per-city benefit are top priority.

Currency - yes. I always forget about that trade route.
Code of Laws (for cheap courthouses) might be an option; Lil Bro already has the religion.
Monarchy - yes. But settling the wine might be a good idea, first. :)
Priesthood - for two happy faces per city once Monty's religion spreads to us? We might want to spread both his holy religions when possible, in case he switches around.
Calendar - We have dyes, at least. A so-so choice, though.
Music - Doesn't excite me much. But Notre Damnit could be a worthwhile pursuit.

For once, Civil Service might not be worth beelining for ASAP. Our capital is not all that amazing.

@Bede: What was your birthday present to Monty? Horses? Is it okay to give a strategic resource to Monty as a birthday present? That's, like, giving a kid clothes for his birthday. Uh, like, so uncool dad! :)

But I guess for a poor big brother, needs must come first...

But he really wanted that pony!