Alright, as I'm sure many of you have noticed. I didnt make a poll.

I know. I was surprized too.

Anyway, this thread IS about my proposal for religious late game effects outside of the "appocolyptic spells". A great deal of this Idea is about flavor, so its flavor-inspired. However, I've a respect for gameplay, which is where you people come in. Id like to know if you think its completely bonkers, or merely insane.

The Idea:


Specially, I would like to see a metamorphasis in the mid/late game that is accessed through technologies and the like. In this, it would be YET MORE specialization. In fact, my mind has it played out in an "evolution" sort of feel.

Right now, religions provide special units, special buildings, and the like.

What I would LOVE, is to see (in mid/late game) the entirety of a TRULY devoted civilization, start metamorphing into the Paragon of that religion.

Imagine followers of FOL. Right now they get Archers of the Leeves, the appropriate disciple units. etc. But their primary forces/buildings/cities are all of their origional civ. My idea would be that each religion would have the potential to "transcend" their normal civ state, and enter a "paragon" state.

Our FOL friends would slowly and surely BECOME the fey creatures they admire. Normal melee troops would begin being replaced by (Very) Fey creatuers of like disposition - Fairies, Pixies, Leprachauns(sp?), Faun, Satyr, and even Ents. Slowly the buildings would also change, as well as the look of their territory. THe idea would be to "blend them in" to the world. THe citizens themselves would eventually start looking and behaving differently.

The substanitive difference between my idea and normal "religious zealotry" is that where as - as it is now, civs 'worship the other' and are still seperate, they've access to the mythological and such, but are not themselves part OF that divine other. This "paragon" religious implmentation would actually change the civ into what they worshiped.

FOL - To Fey
Runes - To Gems and Gold and Rock creatures
OO - To Illithid/Cathulu types
Order - To Angels and Archangels
Veil - To deamons and Devils
Cult - To...well, I'm uncertain if this should be paragonized. But maybe, and if it was - Dragons


Essentially 6 quasi-civilizations would be carved out for access in the late game, one could "become them". I wouldnt expect this implmented for a long time, but it strikes me as VERY DROOL WORTHY.

I also would anticipate that each religion would have its own unique victory condition - only accessible through "Paragon Religion".

Paragon Religion would be a civic in, <gasp>, the religion thread. Every unit and building would be TIED to that civic option. So once its chosen, it should be devistatingly detrimental (to be redudant) to switch from it. (AI's should NEvER switch from it, if they decide to take it). Also, i Feel that the ownership of the Holy city is required to select it, but not necessarily to keep it (if you lose your holy city for example). The Holy City would become in effect a new capital. It'd be granted bonuses etc, the loss of it would be very bad indeed. Also, I think that ONLY one civ may be a paragon for each religion per game. So even if you capture a holy city from a paragon civ, you cannot become the paragon of that religion, someone already has.

Also, a LARGE quantity of Religion-specific technologies would become available to you and only you. Reseraching these would make you MORE.."Paragony" but it would neglect other techs, and since religious technologies arnt tradeable, your losing trade value as well. But these technologies would provide - in theory - direct benefits as well as access benefits. I imagine that the Fey would have techs that simply added 1 Happiness or 1 Healthiness to each city, merely for its aquiring it. This would be more "late game" tech, but earlier techs might include different improvment options.

Breaking it down:

Risk Vs Reward. Gain vs Loss.

Over all in civ, there should be net gain. But nothing should be free as to continue balance. I think we can all agree that the flavor is pretty juicy, but if a paragon civ became unstoppable, or unplayable, it'd ruin the flavor fast. Therefore the following i recomend.

Benefits:

Superior Improvements: Each Religion would gain a benefit in its SPECIFIC specialization across the board for most every new improvment they gained access to. For example, if "Flesh Farms" became accessable for the Ashen vale, Farms would then produce Beakers in addition to their normal production. A "Dream Catcher Windmill" Would aslo likely produce beakers. Improvements would/should be the most notable feature of a paragon civ.

Special Units: Each Paragon civ would have a couple new "type" of units (think elven dwarven, orc stuff). These would NEVER have anti-counter promotions for them. Also, some unique ability would be drapped over all of them, regardless of type. For example, The Axeman Equivilant of the Fey might be the Faun. But all Fey units have woodsman I and II, and invisability. Each religion would have its own unique "taste".

Special Buildings: These would replace the older buildings, and function slightly more superior depending on the religion. Ashenvale libraries for example, might provide more % bonus than normal. All in all, the appropriate buildings that would be influence would be wholey superior to the origionals.

Price:
Ah yes, the "rub" as it were. Here's the thing. My argument is that the "Paragon" civic should either emulate, or replace "theocracy". That means no more non-state religious spread. It would also, instantly eliminate the ability to produce any non-religious based unit, building, or improvement (with the exception of nodes). This would mean, essentially, that youd be "starting over" with your civ. Because even if you could once build maceman - if you switched over to a paragon civic, your going to be producing the "worst" of that particular religions units first. And since you cannot "tech up" in that religion until you switch, its a long road to temporary. THis, i believe is a very high and risky price. But considering the potential gains from superior improvements and buildings and units. It'd be an interesting tactic for gameplay. I'm also thinking it should cause longer than normal anarchy.

The idea here is that the switch to a paragon religious civilization, would hurt - ALOT at first. But, if it survived the switch, when it ratcheded up the personal tech tree, and gained access to superior same tier units and equipment. The hurt, would effectively be on.

As I see it, a Paragon unit would be equal to one tier higher than its replacement in power. A paragon axeman replacement, would be as potentially powerful as a mace man. THis would put paragon t4 units as the most powerful in the game (being a veritable t5).

The Other downside. The cesation of all trade with non-similar religious civs. They either share your religion as a STATE religion, or, no trade. Peace is still an option, but no trade, no trade from city to city, no tech trade, nothing. This will generally degrade relations and lead to a lot of "fun times" to be had by all.


Side-Note: Agnostic Civs would have to have access to some private end-game technologies to keep them on par with the potential of paragon civilizations.

Second Side-Note: Ashen Veil and The Order paragon civs would be instantaniously and permantely at war with any civ identifing their opposite as a state-religion (War wearyness from being at war with the antithical civ would be eliminated - other wars would function normally).

OK people, Hack away, and add. But bare in mind its supposed to be "Evolution" and Intergration into an ALREADY fantastic system.

-Qes

If the Above confused you this is a short summery.

Being a Paragon is becoming what the relgions worshiped - how do we implement this?
-Qes

Ideas so far:

Potential Problems
- Cult being restricted to limited civs (Sheiam and Kuriotates)
- Paragon being "too powerful": Fix should be weak beginning.
- Too much work: Solution - Have this idea nicely packaged for Dev Team (gives us all a % chance)

Potential Gains
- Cool new feel
- Dynamic Civ system
- Drool factor

Potential Alterations
- Event not tech based
- Great Person Based
- Need for another "base" religion, to offer more paragonal opportunities.
- Spread of "Pargaon Status" city to city, instead of whole civ at intervals.

Balancing Options
- Paragon Unit Sets are not fully transparant - i.e. not every "normal unit" is given a replacement, limiting the options the Paragon Civ has. However, these units would be superior in their field of expertise.

Evolution Process Via Rituals (Best idea so far)
Have rituals appear as options throughout the tech tree, in religious sections.
Each Ritual would give a benefit and a penalty.
One must have selected "Paragon religion" civic to build the following:

First ritual - Allow access to Paragon T1 Units- prevents building of ALL non-paragon units (even above T1 - this is meant to "hurt")
Second - Allow building of Paragon Improvments - Destroys all normal improvements (Again - meant to hurt)
Third - Allow access to T2 Paragon Units, Halve Cultural Garrison in every city. (Pain/reward)
Fourth - Allow Acess to Paragon Buildings - Destroy all Buildings in all cities
Fifth - Allow Access to T3 Paragon Units, - Enter 10 Turn Anarchy
Sixth - Change all Specialists to Paragon Equivilants, halve population in all cities
Seventh - Allow access to T4 Paragon Units, Instantly at war with every civ.

Possible Paragon Templates:

Fellowship of Leaves
Unit Replacements and Qualities:
Dryad (Archer Replacement) - STR 4 (Fey), Movement 1
2 First Strikes
Has "Escape" spell
+1 Movement In Forests/Jungle
(Fey Qualities - Has Woodsman I, II)

Satyr (Axeman Replacement) - Str 6 (Fey), Movement 1
Has "Charm Person" Spell
+50% Vs Disciple Units
(Fey Qualities - Has Woodsman I, II)

Pixie (Hunter Replacement) - Str 2 (Fey), Movement 2
+200% Against Animals
Can Capture Animals
-50% City Strength
Can "Empower Animals" (Like mages summons, for any animal captured)
(Fey Qualities)

Nymph (Ranger Replacement) - Str 7 (Fey), Movement 2
+200% Against Animals
Can Capture Animals
-50% City Strength
Has Spell "Dominate"
(Fey Qualities)

Fairie Legion (Longbowman Replacement) - Str 7 (Fey), Movement 2
2 First Strikes
Has Treetop Defence
Can Spread FOL
(Fey Qualities)

Ent (Maceman Replacement) - As per ent (Fey)
As per ent
(Fey Qualities)

Ancient Ent (Spartiatoi/Phalanx Replacement) - Str 20 (Fey), Movment 1
Vulnerable to Fire
Magic Resistant
Bombard
Medic
(Fey Qualities)


IMPROVMENTS:
TreeFarm: (Replaces Farm), Able to be built in Forests.
Normal Far bonus' + 4 Food.

Songmill: (Replaces Windmill), Able to be built in forests.
Normal Windmill bonus' + 2 Food.

Treetop Huts: (Replaces Cottages/Villages/Hamlets/Towns), Able to be built in forests.
Normal Cottage Bonus' +1,1,2,2 Food accordingly (not cumulative).

Forest Shrine: (Replaces Lumbermill/Workshop):
+1 Hammer, +1 Gold, +2 Happiness

BUILDINGS:
?

SPECIALISTS:
Pixies (Sage Replacement) - Normal Sage Bonus' + 1 Happiness
Fairies (Priest Replacement) - Normal Priest Bonus' + 1 Happiness
Leprachauns (Merchant Replacement) - Normal Merchant Bonus' + 1 Happiness
Satyr (Artist Replacement) - Normal Artist Bonus' + 1 Happiness

If the Above confused you this is a short summery.

Being a Paragon is becoming what the relgions worshiped - how do we implement this?
-Qes

Not easily, that's for sure. You want another replacement for every unit? Art aside, it'd be simply hard to differentiate the functionality after awhile.

Not that I don't like the spirit or even specifics as a starting place though.

It'd be cool if this was not tech but event based. If OO, after sacing X slaves, you'd get a free tech that taught a OO specific technology including the "Scions of the Octolords" civic. After summoning X Balors, you'd get the veil tech granting the AV specific religion civic "Bondservant of Hell." Once X forests had become ancient forests in your land, you'd be given access to the FoL civic "Fey-kin". Runes if hmm? Maybe earn X gold? Then you could have "Divine Crafters." Order ? Killing X demons, or something? Then you could get the "Right hand of Junil" Civic.

Making multiple civics rather than one "Paragon" civic would be for more than flavor--this way it could tie the effects into the civic without needed so many new buildings or improvements. Having Scions of the Octolords adopted could in and of itself change the effects of some buildings and improvements.

Not easily, that's for sure. You want another replacement for every unit? Art aside, it'd be simply hard to differentiate the functionality after awhile.

Not that I don't like the spirit or even specifics as a starting place though.

It'd be cool if this was not tech but event based. If OO, after sacing X slaves, you'd get a free tech that taught a OO specific technology including the "Scions of the Octolords" civic. After summoning X Balors, you'd get the veil tech granting the AV specific religion civic "Bondservant of Hell." Once X forests had become ancient forests in your land, you'd be given access to the FoL civic "Fey-kin". Runes if hmm? Maybe earn X gold? Then you could have "Divine Crafters." Order ? Killing X demons, or something? Then you could get the "Right hand of Junil" Civic.

Making multiple civics rather than one "Paragon" civic would be for more than flavor--this way it could tie the effects into the civic without needed so many new buildings or improvements. Having Scions of the Octolords adopted could in and of itself change the effects of some buildings and improvements.

Hm, I like all these suggestions quite a bit. Generally - Im not tied to anything, Im just brainstorming what I feel would be "Drool worthy".

Simply put, anything that gave the feel of becoming the veritable "paragon" of a particular religion, like, shedding the "skin" of your old civ self, and donning the new skin of the paragon would feel very interesting.

The coolness is in the transformation and the completely "alien" nature of playing a paragon civ. That's what makes me twitch slightly with anticipation.
If those effects can be produced without the uber-epic suggestion I made (Which i know, would be in itself a veritable 5th phase of design - not something i think anyone is looking for :P) But the idea still intrigues me.
-Qes

IIRC this idea have been requested somewhere, several weeks ago. And as Nikis-Knight said, it's not easy to do religion evolution. But if only adding 1 more civic for each religion, IMHO it's affordable. This additional civic should be a choice to currently religion specific civic. I mean, we could make another economy civic for FoL with different effect than Guardian of Nature. Favoring warmonger (+ military production), favoring builder (+ building production), or others. So FoL follower could choose either GoN or this new civic, but not both.

:shake:
how dare you?!? and in QES' thread, of all the threads.. shame on you

Hmm... interesting idea, but quite demanding... you're talking about a huge amount of work.

Also, the trouble is with Dragon... it's not really a state religion type thing... maybe something could be implemented that if the cult has spread to at least 80% of your pop, the chance of a unit being born with the cult promotion doubles, as does the chance of that unit defecting to the cult leader. Furthermore, even when your cultists are on friendly ground, there is a 1% chance per turn that they will spontaneously go barbarian and attack you... and will thereafter instantly convert if they enter the land of the cult founder or even SEE one of their units.

Contraversely, the founder of the Cult (only) should be able to adopt it as a state religion, getting temples and priests, as normal (this allows a few more divine spells to be distributed, as well as allows for a more offensive use of the Cult).

To balance this, I suggest an increased reaction penalty for anyone who adopts the Cult as their state religion. -2ish, possibly increasing if you're actively spreading it (with disciples).

I am in a state of intense salivation at the thought of this suggestion.

More in-depth comments later, must go listen to a Statistics 101 lecture.

If you were to do this, I would hope you can create a 4th "basic" religion. The current basic religions are too biased towards specific races I think (dwarves, elves and lunan), in that that these favored races get disproportionate benefit from the religions. I would hope there is a 4th (perhaps aggregarian based religion) that the more human civilizations could use.

Pel

hummm.. this is an interesting indea.. cant wait to see what keal thinks about it...

...(dwarves, elves and lunan)...
*ahem*... LANUN

Warning: this post rambles. It's a brainstorming post.

Perhaps instead of or in addition to researching the techs when you have a particular religion as your state religion there is a special GP counter. When that counter gets full you pop out a super prophet (NOT a world unit), call it an avatar. That avatar can then be sacrificed in a city to build a national wonder. Having this wonder is necessary to begin the path to paragonhood, rather than the founding city. This will make it so the person who founds the religion has a leg up on the competition, but other nations are not completely locked out. (Maybe have some other step towards the end being world restricted so that many civs can start the path, but only one can finish.) Switching religions will reset this counter completely. Maybe get one point per city/settlement that you control that has this religion.


Order ? Killing X demons, or something? Then you could get the "Right hand of Junil" Civic.

Problem is that this means that you are restricted. The only way you can do this is if the other guys have demons that you can attack. Everyone else is active, this civ is reactive.

This is my first post here, I just had to post on this sweet idea.

Maybe in order to not clog down the tech tree, it would be better to have the civ convert automatically over time, when the paragon civic is chosen. You could have all the buildings, units and improvements have a small percentage chance of converting every turn, and when your unit enabling buildings convert, you could build the units directly. You would then "only" need multiple sets of completely new building, unit and improvements stats and art :-).

This looses the original concept of being weak at first, but I don't like that idea. Also I think it would be best to keep the bonus relatively modest. Like woodsman I promotions, and stuff like that.

Warning: this post rambles. It's a brainstorming post.

Perhaps instead of or in addition to researching the techs when you have a particular religion as your state religion there is a special GP counter. When that counter gets full you pop out a super prophet (NOT a world unit), call it an avatar. That avatar can then be sacrificed in a city to build a national wonder. Having this wonder is necessary to begin the path to paragonhood, rather than the founding city. This will make it so the person who founds the religion has a leg up on the competition, but other nations are not completely locked out. (Maybe have some other step towards the end being world restricted so that many civs can start the path, but only one can finish.) Switching religions will reset this counter completely. Maybe get one point per city/settlement that you control that has this religion.


Problem is that this means that you are restricted. The only way you can do this is if the other guys have demons that you can attack. Everyone else is active, this civ is reactive.

I like this idea - It's got promise, but not sure yet how to flesh it out.
-Qes

This is my first post here, I just had to post on this sweet idea.

Maybe in order to not clog down the tech tree, it would be better to have the civ convert automatically over time, when the paragon civic is chosen. You could have all the buildings, units and improvements have a small percentage chance of converting every turn, and when your unit enabling buildings convert, you could build the units directly. You would then "only" need multiple sets of completely new building, unit and improvements stats and art :-).

This looses the original concept of being weak at first, but I don't like that idea. Also I think it would be best to keep the bonus relatively modest. Like woodsman I promotions, and stuff like that.

While I understand this is prolly most likely to occur, my protests with it are that A) creating smaller boons and smaller banes, really makes the Paragon into just another civ. After all, each "race" has its boons and banes exactly like you mentioned. This "Paragon" nature would be drastic change. I want the play styles to alter drastically regardless of whatever origional civ an individual chose. Effectively, it'd be like chosing an entirely new civ in the middle of the game.

I do like the ideas that the "expanded" tech tree could instead be modified to go along the normal tech tree, and paragon benefits could stem from normal progression, the only problem is, as you said, then there really isnt a "downside" to being Paragon. I want it to be a LARGE risk for a LARGE reward, if possible. I personally like the "start over" situation, because it would mean that in the beginning, the civ would be realatively vulnerable and therefor choosing to be a paragon might not always be the best option. Especially if you've hostile neighbors. However, After a while of being a paragon, It should be a "force to behold" and envy throughout the world. Truly, I imagine that in the end, Paragons are fighting it out for the fate of the world.

This is not to say "normals" couldnt win. In fact, the normals beneift is that they dont have a huge "speed bump" in their progression, they could exert force and mitigate or eliminate the threats of potential paragons.

Also - if possible, I'd love it if Paragons could be a way of "coming back from behind". Clearly the most powerful civs might attempt to become paragons, but the risk of early transition might shift the balances of power. A lower ranked civ who tried, and others generally left alone, may become a force to fear withint a couple hundred years after.

Also - I think that the "Cult" paragon, should be restricted, of course, to the Kuriotates and the Sheiam. Making it the most rare paragon to potentially occur.

AI Difficulties: I'm not sure how it'd be programed for the AI to NOT ALWAYS select the paragon status. I think that if it was in first, or near the top of the lists, it WOULDNT make the transition - too risky. But maybe a player would. Or, if other "too good to pass up" opportunities came to the AI it'd risk it.

Keep the ideas/problems coming people.

-Qes

PS. I know that this is a Major amount of work, I'm aware of that, which is why its only a brainstorm right now, something we can all peck at. IF we could come up with a viable option, something that was gererally fleshed out "in theory" then the dev team might look at it with more than a passing glance. Remember, the goal is salivation.

to make it so that its a risk for powerful civs, and appealing for weak civs, just make it a ritual that destroys all your cities except the building city.

then id say make it give you powerful units (not a total conversion, just a new set of units for each religion) that are cheap to build but have a national limit, give you the trait scorched earth and no settlers that you can build, then you could have a fun time clearing out the world :D

make the ritual available with the founding tech for the religion, but make it take ridiculously long to build, so that you have to be dedicated to it for a long time.

What about giving all religions multiple rituals that when used slowly transform the nation. To make a full transition you would need to dedicate 1-2 hammer cities to the process, weakening what you can do otherwise. Likewise, you could structure the rituals so that many of them have weaknesses that are cancelled out by other rituals. For example, from the perspective of Leaves:

1. Awaken the Land: Any magic node in your country must be elemental. Any that are not are "pillaged" to a base node. X number of new nodes are randomly seeded within your boarders. The spread of forests and ancient forest is increase, as is the chance of ent appearences. Your nation looses access to all non-building/non-traded nodes until your your adapts complete their transformation.

2. Awaken the Mind: All adept units and mage guilds are upgraded to their fey counterparts. Fey can only access nodes from buildings, trading, or from awakened nodes. Strife is created between the adepts and disciples, unless both are awakened. To refelect this, religion civics other then way of the forest cannot be used until disciples are also upgraded. Likewise, each city gets one unhappy face per religions building.

3. Awaken the Spirit: All disciple and religion buildings are upgraded to their fey counterparts. Cannot be done if any other religion exists within your land. Strife is created between the adepts and disciples, unless both are awakened. To refelect this, new adept units cannot be trained or promoted, nor do adept units gain experience. Likewise, each city gets one unhappy face per mage guild or adept unit garrisoned in the city.

Etc.

Pel

Not easily, that's for sure. You want another replacement for every unit? Art aside, it'd be simply hard to differentiate the functionality after awhile.

Not that I don't like the spirit or even specifics as a starting place though.

It'd be cool if this was not tech but event based. If OO, after sacing X slaves, you'd get a free tech that taught a OO specific technology including the "Scions of the Octolords" civic. After summoning X Balors, you'd get the veil tech granting the AV specific religion civic "Bondservant of Hell." Once X forests had become ancient forests in your land, you'd be given access to the FoL civic "Fey-kin". Runes if hmm? Maybe earn X gold? Then you could have "Divine Crafters." Order ? Killing X demons, or something? Then you could get the "Right hand of Junil" Civic.

Making multiple civics rather than one "Paragon" civic would be for more than flavor--this way it could tie the effects into the civic without needed so many new buildings or improvements. Having Scions of the Octolords adopted could in and of itself change the effects of some buildings and improvements.

Actually I see Paragons as haveing FEWER options than a normal civ. Not every unit would be replaced. The OO might have replacements for Melee, and Archery, but perhaps no cavalry replacements, and perhaps spotty replacements for recon.

Becoming a paragon, would limit the options across the board, a "normal civ" would have adaptability and the potential to "access" almost every unit.
Paragon civs would be limited Entirely to their "set" of units, and those sets would not be transparant with "normal" units. Or this is the hope anyway,
-Qes

I really Like the ides of multiple Rituals that would slowly transform the Civ. The only issue is, that whats the downside? Your loosing potentially, one cities production at any given time, yes, but your still able to produce normally everything else.

Maybe to mesh this we could do the following:

Have rituals appear as options throughout the tech tree, in religious sections.
Each Ritual would give a benefit and a penalty. Maybe ...say 6 or 7 in total?

One must have selected "Paragon religion" civic to build the following:

First ritual - Allow access to Paragon T1 Units- prevents building of ALL non-paragon units (even above T1 - this is meant to "hurt")
Second - Allow building of Paragon Improvments - Destroys all normal improvements (Again - meant to hurt)
Third - Allow access to T2 Paragon Units, Half Cultural Garrison in every city. (Pain/reward)
Fourth - Allow Acess to Paragon Buildings - Destroy all Buildings in all cities
Fifth - Allow Access to T3 Paragon Units, - Enter 10 Turn Anarchy
Sixth - Change all Specialists to Paragon Equivilants, half population in all cities
Seventh - Allow access to T4 Paragon Units, Instantly at war with every civ.

Note: Paragon T1 would be the equivilant in power to a Normal T2, or so is the hope. Considering the "period for adjustment" and tech-line progress, the hope is that the ritual would be finished in the same period as most people are using T2 units. Keep this concept in mind for ritual progression/tech progression/military progression.

-Qes

EDIT: Ok, so people let us come up with what the paragon civs might look like, I'd like lists of Units, their abilities, and why their superior to their equivilants, and the same for improvements, buildings, Specialists (yes specialists), and possibly exclusive technologies. Pick a religion and try to hash out what you like or think the religion would try to achieve. I'll try to bring it all together for a nice package we could present.

EDIT2: Dont try to replace EVERY unit, every building etc. Only do what "feels right" for the religion in question, teh benefit of NOT being a paragon is access to EVERY TYPE of unit, and building. Paragon civs should be restrictive, but powerful.

to make it so that its a risk for powerful civs, and appealing for weak civs, just make it a ritual that destroys all your cities except the building city.

then id say make it give you powerful units (not a total conversion, just a new set of units for each religion) that are cheap to build but have a national limit, give you the trait scorched earth and no settlers that you can build, then you could have a fun time clearing out the world :D

make the ritual available with the founding tech for the religion, but make it take ridiculously long to build, so that you have to be dedicated to it for a long time.

While I like the spirit of this suggestion, its essentially the "one-city challange" packaged into normal civing. ITs a good idea, but I like the idea of a large swath of map suddenly evolving into something so much more. Not merely a festering cancer against the rest of the world - though perhaps this is what the "cult" should be? Or maybe Agnostics? Maybe the agnostic civs (who clearly dont benefit from Paragonness) could have rituals that would make them one-city wonders, festering sores on the face of the globe, out to spite everyone?

Explore this idea, but i think its seperate from the paragon.
-Qes

EDIT: Since this is the top of the page (For me) please read the previous post for those who didnt see it.

Rather then *building* rituals and selecting civics and researching techs I would like something like this to be a more natural and on-going evolution in the background.

You do not choose to evolve, you just do.

Rather then *building* rituals and selecting civics and researching techs I would like something like this to be a more natural and on-going evolution in the background.

You do not choose to evolve, you just do.

While i agree this would be 'the awesome', unfortunately I dont think A) the AI would understand it and B) nothing in the game is particularly "natural".

Everything in Civ is a choice, despite my best efforts to try to curb it elsewise. Rituals offer the closest thing to "natural" progression, as they happen sort of "all at once" - have enough of them, and you get a liniar progression.

Also, since Paragons are powerful, and religion is very important and prevelant, how to prevent everyone from becoming a paragon? Id like paragons to be the ONLY paragon of their particular religion. If it was a "natural" occurance, what would stop other civs of like behavior from becoming paragons?
-Qes

I just want to make certain I am on the same page

Underlying theory and design premise, as it seems to me.

Creates a religion centered win condition to replace/surpass the nearly impossible religious win condition that exists.
Only one civ can complete the path per religion.
Completion of path does not grant an automatic victory, but makes it so that you have access to a power level that should allow you to steamroll the other civs if they don't kill you midstep
Undertaking this path is a big risk, but has a big reward.
The path itself has multiple steps, currently envisioned as a series of rituals (aka projects)
At the beginning portion of the path the civ is substantionally weakened, at the end very powerful and consists (mostly? completely?) of unique units.
The unique units should be focused around the theme and feel of the religion.

Themes of the religions
Fellowship of Leaves: forest, elves, fey, natural world (health)
Runes : mountainous and hilly terrain, underground, dwarves, minerals, (money)
Octopus Overlords: water, insanity, undead, Cthulluesque (culture)
Veil: demonic forces, dark magic (knowledge/science)
Order: angelic forces, holiness, war, inquisition (military production)

Edits: the part in the parenthesis is the game mechanics advantage that each religion's temple gives, OO gives 3 culture for instance.
Corrected typo in the "Order" line, from order to production.

Id like paragons to be the ONLY paragon of their particular religion. If it was a "natural" occurance, what would stop other civs of like behavior from becoming paragons?
-Qes

It is possible that you could do both, make it so that there is a choice to _start_ the path, but once you start it it is a natural progression.

for example:

have a state relegion
build one or more rituals to begin the path
over a period of time the civ transforms

a) from a central city creaping outward
b)gradually throughout the civ

at some point the civ looses access to the goodies they had

a)Mana Nodes
b)Other improvements
c)Units
d)Buildings

civ builds goodies to replace what they lost
Final war

I just want to make certain I am on the same page

Underlying theory and design premise, as it seems to me.

Creates a religion centered win condition to replace/surpass the nearly impossible religious win condition that exists.
Only one civ can complete the path per religion.
Completion of path does not grant an automatic victory, but makes it so that you have access to a power level that should allow you to steamroll the other civs if they don't kill you midstep
Undertaking this path is a big risk, but has a big reward.
The path itself has multiple steps, currently envisioned as a series of rituals (aka projects)
At the beginning portion of the path the civ is substantionally weakened, at the end very powerful and consists (mostly? completely?) of unique units.
The unique units should be focused around the theme and feel of the religion.

Themes of the religions
Fellowship of Leaves: forest, elves, fey, natural world (health)
Runes : mountainous and hilly terrain, underground, dwarves, minerals, (money)
Octopus Overlords: water, insanity, undead, Cthulluesque (culture)
Veil: demonic forces, dark magic (knowledge/science)
Order: angelic forces, holiness, war, inquisition (military order)


Essentially you got it, though were not reinventing the wheel, were not inventing new religions, just trying to bring a single civ, potentially, per game, into the realm of "becoming" the embodiment (paragon) of the religion they worship.
Otherwise, your pretty much on target.
-Qes

EDIT: I think of the OO as "Mind control" and Slavery more than "culture" but i do see the obvious connection. And the Order I see as "Forced Peace" and "Lawful Anal" as well as "Good"

I really Like the ides of multiple Rituals that would slowly transform the Civ. The only issue is, that whats the downside? Your loosing potentially, one cities production at any given time, yes, but your still able to produce normally everything else.

"To build, Awaken the Land requires the completion of Awaken the City's Soil (-2 happy, -20% commerce, +10% GPP due to unrest) in at least half of your cities"?

It is possible that you could do both, make it so that there is a choice to _start_ the path, but once you start it it is a natural progression.

for example:

have a state relegion
build one or more rituals to begin the path
over a period of time the civ transforms

a) from a central city creaping outward
b)gradually throughout the civ

at some point the civ looses access to the goodies they had

a)Mana Nodes
b)Other improvements
c)Units
d)Buildings

civ builds goodies to replace what they lost
Final war


Yeah this would be cool, but what would trigger each event? And how would "natural" progress be balanced against other civs with "non-natural" progress?

Also in the "End" id like there to be a non-war supplement for "victory" for some of the religions. Perhaps ashen vale and Order would be war based, but perhaps for the Leaves, OO and Runes, there'd be other alternatives.

Also, Over all, i think that the "order" and "vale" should have their metamorphasis occur more quickly than the other religions. In theory, if 5 different civs aimed at being the 5 different paragons (excluding cult), they might all wind up becoming the "paragons" at the same time. It'd take longer for early religions, shorter for later religions.

Also, the amount of religious spread should have some sort of impact. Cities without the appropriate state religion (while rare later on, are more common early/mid game) would be in the hurt bag for a paragon civ. Also, when paragon civs take over a city without their religion, that city should be VERY useless (until its "taken into the fold", or destroyed).
-Qes

"To build, Awaken the Land requires the completion of Awaken the City's Soil (-2 happy, -20% commerce, +10% GPP due to unrest) in at least half of your cities"?

I like your Awaken Rituals. And i think they should be included. But because of the way they destroy the potential "victory condition" of the tower of mastery, what would you replace that with. Also, i think these rituals make excellent suplemental rituals, but not the "transformative" rituals.
-Qes

Hmm...
Thinking about it, this is a very good idea.

Wrote up something random quickly - is something along these lines what you're envisioning?

(It's in the spoiler to save space.)

On adopting the civic: Can never again chop a forest or jungle. Can never again switch state religion.

Stage 1: (After 5 turns on 'quick' speed, or after researching a specific tech, or building a ritual)
All regular forests and jungles in ones' lands turn into ancient forests. Any new forests will from now on grow directly into ancient forests.

Stage 2: (After 10 more turns on 'quick' speed, or after researching a specific tech, or building a ritual)
Gains access to a small selection of woodland creature-type units, losing access to many regular units.
Forest spread rate increases.

Stage 3: (After 10 more turns on 'quick' speed, or after researching a specific tech, or building a ritual)
Gains access to a few more woodland creatures and spirits, losing even more regular units. Forest spread rate increases even further, with a minimum of one new forest popping up each turn.

Stage 4: (Once all squares within cultural borders that can have forests spread to them have forests, or building a ritual)
Gains access to even more foresty units, losing access to all regular units.
Can build all improvements in forests. All current improvements are replaced by forest-friendly ones, and forests start spreading on top of improvements. Can no longer build mines, and existing mines are destroyed.

Stage 5: (Once all squares within cultural borders have forests, at least 15 (quick) turns after stage 4, or after researching another specific tech, or building a ritual)
All cities lacking Grove improvements get them. Can construct "Treant" units. (12 strength, 1 movement, 5% bombard ability, vulnerable to fire, woodsman II)
All non-state religions are purged from cities, causing some unhappiness.

Stage 6: (20 turns after Stage 5, or after researching a final specific tech, or building a final ritual)
Gains access to Ancient Treants. (18 strength, 1 movement, 25% bombard ability, vulnerable to fire, magic resistant, woodsman II, national unit)
Can construct the heroes Titania and Oberon (or, well, FFH-lore equivalents) -
king and queen of fairies and woodland spirits.
All non-fellowship-of-leaves units have a 50% chance to gain Woodsman I and II - but if they don't, they abandon you. Already present Woodsman I and Woodsman II promotions each give a 20% bonus to this check, and 'Elven' gives a 10% bonus.

Stage 7: (Both heroes and three Ancient Treants exist)
Gains a free one-time Genesis effect. Jungles start randomly spreading in the lands of anyone you are at war with, destroying improvements.

Yeah this would be cool, but what would trigger each event?

Hmm, how about this:

Each city in your civ with the state relegion gives you 2 "path" points for the early relegions, 3 "path" points for the late.
or.
For every pop point in a city with the state relegion you get 2 "path" points for the early civs, 3 for the later.

After a certain # of path points the next phase happens.

Also, the amount of religious spread should have some sort of impact. Cities without the appropriate state religion (while rare later on, are more common early/mid game) would be in the hurt bag for a paragon civ. Also, when paragon civs take over a city without their religion, that city should be VERY useless (until its "taken into the fold", or destroyed).

For every city in your civ without the state relegion, you lose 1 path point.
or
For every pop point in every city in your civ without the state relegion, you lose 1 path point.
Perhaps at the later phases each city that doesn't have the relegion loses pop and culture (these freaks are scary) as well as causing you a path point.

Hmm...
Thinking about it, this is a very good idea.

Wrote up something random quickly - is something along these lines what you're envisioning?

(It's in the spoiler to save space.)

On adopting the civic: Can never again chop a forest or jungle. Can never again switch state religion.

Stage 1: (After 5 turns on 'quick' speed, or after researching a specific tech, or building a ritual)
All regular forests and jungles in ones' lands turn into ancient forests. Any new forests will from now on grow directly into ancient forests.

Stage 2: (After 10 more turns on 'quick' speed, or after researching a specific tech, or building a ritual)
Gains access to a small selection of woodland creature-type units, losing access to many regular units.
Forest spread rate increases.

Stage 3: (After 10 more turns on 'quick' speed, or after researching a specific tech, or building a ritual)
Gains access to a few more woodland creatures and spirits, losing even more regular units. Forest spread rate increases even further, with a minimum of one new forest popping up each turn.

Stage 4: (Once all squares within cultural borders that can have forests spread to them have forests, or building a ritual)
Gains access to even more foresty units, losing access to all regular units.
Can build all improvements in forests. All current improvements are replaced by forest-friendly ones, and forests start spreading on top of improvements. Can no longer build mines, and existing mines are destroyed.

Stage 5: (Once all squares within cultural borders have forests, at least 15 (quick) turns after stage 4, or after researching another specific tech, or building a ritual)
All cities lacking Grove improvements get them. Can construct "Treant" units. (12 strength, 1 movement, 5% bombard ability, vulnerable to fire, woodsman II)
All non-state religions are purged from cities, causing some unhappiness.

Stage 6: (20 turns after Stage 5, or after researching a final specific tech, or building a final ritual)
Gains access to Ancient Treants. (18 strength, 1 movement, 25% bombard ability, vulnerable to fire, magic resistant, woodsman II, national unit)
Can construct the heroes Titania and Oberon (or, well, FFH-lore equivalents) -
king and queen of fairies and woodland spirits.
All non-fellowship-of-leaves units have a 50% chance to gain Woodsman I and II - but if they don't, they abandon you. Already present Woodsman I and Woodsman II promotions each give a 20% bonus to this check, and 'Elven' gives a 10% bonus.

Stage 7: (Both heroes and three Ancient Treants exist)
Gains a free one-time Genesis effect. Jungles start randomly spreading in the lands of anyone you are at war with, destroying improvements.


I'm hard pressed to know what that would look like on Epic (which is where I get my standard ideas from.

I like the idea, but i dont feel there is much "effort" on the part of the civ trying to transform. Much like any metamorphasis process, it should be painful and vulnerable, where are the vulnerabilities? Otherwise, it sounds cool. Still, it shouldnt be easy.
-Qes

Hmm, how about this:

Each city in your civ with the state relegion gives you 2 "path" points for the early relegions, 3 "path" points for the late.
or.
For every pop point in a city with the state relegion you get 2 "path" points for the early civs, 3 for the later.

After a certain # of path points the next phase happens.

For every city in your civ without the state relegion, you lose 1 path point.
or
For every pop point in every city in your civ without the state relegion, you lose 1 path point.
Perhaps at the later phases each city that doesn't have the relegion loses pop and culture (these freaks are scary) as well as causing you a path point.

While path points sound cool, idealily we'd use compoenents and engine material already in the game. Something simlilar might be to give the Great Prophet some sort of "progression" ability that would push a civilization along the Paragon Path. In this GP would be "path points". and one would have to invest heavily in religion to produce enough of them.

Still, the rituals seem the most "Seemless" at this point. STill, keep the ideas coming, and continue to flesh things out. Eventually we may be able to come up with something that wouldnt take much altercation by the dev team to implement (IF they like it).
-Qes

EDIT: We should think, first, on how we want the Religons to look and feel once the paragon state is in tact, then work backwards on "how did they get there" that might be easiest.

Also in the "End" id like there to be a non-war supplement for "victory" for some of the religions. Perhaps ashen vale and Order would be war based, but perhaps for the Leaves, OO and Runes, there'd be other alternatives.
-Qes
How about this; after you have finished the path other cities that have your religion in them have a chance per turn of defecting over if they have your religion in them and they are on your borders. This chance should be effected by # of other religions in that city. It should be negated by a leader with the agnostic trait, or another civ that has progressed along the path to stage (whatever) .

T3-4 paragon disciple unit can spread religion, and has the hidden nationality promotion.

These two allow a civ that has finished the path a 'peaceful' way of expanding. Spread your religion to your neighbors and watch the cities on your borders flip to your control. The agnostic or other paragon states are immune to it, and the remaining states can try to kill your missionaries before they get to the city.
Hmm, missionaries are going to have to have the ability to spread the religion from, say, 1 square away, so they don't have to actually conquer a city in order to spread the religion.

How about this; after you have finished the path other cities that have your religion in them have a chance per turn of defecting over if they have your religion in them and they are on your borders. This chance should be effected by # of other religions in that city. It should be negated by a leader with the agnostic trait, or another civ that has progressed along the path to stage (whatever) .

T3-4 paragon disciple unit can spread religion, and has the hidden nationality promotion.

These two allow a civ that has finished the path a 'peaceful' way of expanding. Spread your religion to your neighbors and watch the cities on your borders flip to your control. The agnostic or other paragon states are immune to it, and the remaining states can try to kill your missionaries before they get to the city.
Hmm, missionaries are going to have to have the ability to spread the religion from, say, 1 square away, so they don't have to actually conquer a city in order to spread the religion.

What would be the downside/difficulty?
-Qes

Gettting shot down before arriving ?

Trying to spread the relegion, for one. Hidden nationality would mean that they could be attacked by anyone, and these guys should not have high strength values.

Second place is that this can be neutered by theocracy, agnostics, the inquisition, and other pathed civs.

In addition the flipping only takes place on your cultural borders, so terrain can interfere as well.

While i agree this would be 'the awesome', unfortunately I dont think A) the AI would understand it and B) nothing in the game is particularly "natural".
If it would be event based (like Orthu's Appearence) I think it should work. As I see, to become a paragon, first and foremost your civilization has to dedicate generations to worshiping their gods. And that relationship would go even more intense after times to the point that the bound makes you fuse together.

Make some events based on time that would gradually change your civilization. After X ammount of consecutive turns having the civ as your State Religion (and, probably, been on a Theocracy), you start to build a chance to transcend into the next stage and after a while it happens. Or after that X turns, your holy city transcends and it starts to spread the transcedence (another drawback of losing the holy city, you can't spread and transcend anymore).

The ammount of graphical work to implement something like this would be huge, unless, as was discussed in the Enhanced Hero System thread, was possible to make small changes to a texture. So, meanwhile, a set o buildings and promotions to do the evolution would be really cool :)

Another ideas I have for this:

In a Paragon city, non-paragon units gives unhappy penalties ("We don't trust those that are not part of our makers.")
When a city evovels to Paragon status, it gets a building that gives all the units built on it (and has a growing chance of converting the ones in there) a promotion to mark its status and the stage it is in and give the bonuses)
Paragon cities gets a penalty to Internal Trade Routes with cities that have not evolved yet ("If you can't become one of the Old ones, you are not worth our goodies"). This would make a big impact on the early stages of convertion, when most of your cities have not evolved yet.
An evolved city have a penalty for each non-state religion on it. ("Infidel!!!!")
As for restricting the units, every stage evolution would make it impossible for you to build certain units, and would destroy those of its type you have.
The Path of Paragonhood (I loved the expression) is a distancing away from humanity. As you go down on it, you stop been mere worshippers and become part of your Gods. Therefore, the last stage would make all units of a diferent type (maybe Discipline or Summoned or a new one) no matter the previous one

Ok, so you are all coming up with some good ideas.

I hadnt really considered a "city by city" conversion to paragonhood. Instead I saw it more like the whole of the civilization, chunking along over different "parts" or aspects Of that civliization, but i can see city by city being good too.

I still like the rituals Idea, as it seems the most seemless to implement into the current system, however, Clearly there is something we could perhaps implement that is consistant with the "city-evolution" feel.

As it is now, it seems like were suggesting (over all) that to become a paragon one must:

- Choose the Paragon civic (different slightly than theocrasy), would have to be in the "cultural vlaues" catagory since the Religion catagory hath been eliminated.

- Must build the ritual (Perhaps each of these rituals must be built in each city? At that point it becomes a building, more than a ritual. But what do you all think?)

- We want continous growth starting at about mid-game, but the penalties associated with this choice make it risky.

- A lot of graphical work will have to be done (something that is a last concern).

-Qes

Hey, could I get you all to provide some possible "templates" like the one i have in my second post? Please Add/subtract/alter what i Have or try to come up with a new one for the other reliegions.

LEts see what it'd look like, then we can again look back on "how to implement" after we know what were looking to get for all the trouble.
-Qes

Losuf looked into the mirror. His blessings were getting more and more noticed across the years. All of his city praised the Gods for such wonders. No light were lit to cover the stars, because darkness were not a problem anymore. No animal would die to make them clothes, because their furs were enough protection. They were a true blessed people, whose peace was only broken by those ungrateful and unchoosing outsiders.

Losuf looked around in the shrine, the same shrine were he was the first choosen years ago. He remembers the Leaves chant, calling him to be part of them. The trees embrace were peaceful, enlightfull. He was not the same after that day. Nor were his peers. They were no longer human, they were Gods.

These summary talks about my ideas inside the Path of Paragonhood. I hope you like them Qes. I will first state how I think it should work, and them quirks and caveats.


Beggining the process

The transformation would happen in stages. Four sounds like a good number. To start the process toward a religion, the following criteria should be met:


The desired religion must be your state religion.
You must have the Shrine of the religion.
You need a disciple unit of that religion at least level 10 stationed on your Holy City.
You cannot have another religion on the Holy City.
You cannot have founded another religion.When all the critereas are met a pop (like Orthu's) appears to you stating that you begin the road to Paragon. After it, a space bar (like the GPs one) will appear on the Holy City. It will grow according to the number of disciple units and temples of that religion you have, and will decrease for each other religion on your cities.

When the counter gets to 100% the first stage starts. The Holy City converts to a Paragon State. And a number of changes starts to happen in your civilization.

The First Stage

The convertion is not automatically and civilization wide. You need to be a true devote to receive this blessing, and on the first moment, only the Holy City, the original worshippers, have that faith. And when you start to change, while the rest of your civilization does not, you will start to look suspicous of them "How can we trust such lowly beings? We are the Gods favorites, not them."

Many things happens on this stage, most of them not good ones. The convertion is not smooth, in the same as will be untrouble.


An Avatar will appear on your civilization. That level 10 disciple unit will be elevated to Immortal status (gaining the promotion). He is the choosen one of your Gods to convert your civilization, and he needs the time to carry his job.
Every unit on the city will have a cumulative chance of evolving in to the next stage. This evolution would give him a promotion, Paragon Level 1 (or something much better) and would change a little its skin. This bonus of the promotion will be dependant on the choosen religion.
Every unit built on the city gets the promotion automatically.
A Paragon city does not trust the non-choosen. As such, every non-converted unit on the city gives a -1 Unhappy.
For the same above reason, the city will get a negative Internal Trade Routes penalty with cities that are not converted.
But you trust the choosen ones, so they give you +1 Happy. And more important, the Avatar is what everyone wants to be, and when on a converted city, he takes away all unhappiness.


Converting to the Second Stage

One can only hope to be listen by the Gods again, if it manages to fullfill his mission. The Avatar mission is to convert all of his civilization. The Paragon State would spread like a religion to the closest coties to your Holy City. The Avatar would work as a another Holy, creating another point of spread. After every city is converted, the Second Stage begins.


The Second Stage

With all of your civilization starting down the path, the leaders change in their new ways, and that change is completely. Another set of things will happen here:


Your government civic changes for Theocracy and cannot be changed back.
You can no longer change your State Religion.
No other religion can spread in your territory.
You get a great negative diplomacy modifier with nations with State Religions diferent them yours.
You get a bonus Diplomacy and bonus culture for every civ worshiping your religion, because they are now worshiping you.
Another promotion is unlocked, changing even more your units.


Going to continue after I think better on the other stages of the transformation, although I think only one other should be enough. And, I will after write will I like this idea.

I really like these ideas, I've some Questions, but I'm gonna let you finish before posing them.
-Qes

I really like these ideas, I've some Questions, but I'm gonna let you finish before posing them.
-Qes
Go for it and make the questions, it could help me finish it and write the rest :D

1) What will represent Paragon spread? If its city to city, how will one know what cities are transforming into Paragon Cities, and what are just normal cities with a given religion?

2) This method looks Painfully slow (which I like) and one has to dedicate ones self TO it. But what about "Founding another religion" often the AI just grabs techs to prevent others from doing it. I want the AI to be potentially Paragon too, so is this really a good idea?

3) Is there a way to incorporate Ancient temples? It seems that this may be where the Ancient Temple's Shine.

More when i can think of them.
-Qes

I would also suggest the cult of the dragon be the anti-paragon religion. The paragon path for the other religions are all about changing the civilization... while the cult of the dragon is about sacrificing the civilization to birth the perfect dragon.

Pel.

1) What will represent Paragon spread? If its city to city, how will one know what cities are transforming into Paragon Cities, and what are just normal cities with a given religion?

The ideal would be change the graphic of the civilizations. Putting something on the name (like the set of Settlements) could work too.

2) This method looks Painfully slow (which I like) and one has to dedicate ones self TO it. But what about "Founding another religion" often the AI just grabs techs to prevent others from doing it. I want the AI to be potentially Paragon too, so is this really a good idea?

I think it is. For the AI, it would need some work, and some leaders more than others, would choose this paths and forfeit the other religions. I just don't think it makes sense for a civilization to become part of what it adores, if it adores more than one thing.

3) Is there a way to incorporate Ancient temples? It seems that this may be where the Ancient Temple's Shine.

More when i can think of them.
-Qes

What about this. A T3 Recon Unit with one of the promotions, at least level 2, probably, could go explore the Ancient Temple. It would take some turns, and, after that you have a chance of coming with a sacred relic of your religion. This relic would be taken to the HOly City and join it as an specilist given culture and gold bonus as people pilgrim to see it.

I would also suggest the cult of the dragon be the anti-paragon religion. The paragon path for the other religions are all about changing the civilization... while the cult of the dragon is about sacrificing the civilization to birth the perfect dragon.

Pel.

Intersting/cool idea.

Maybe civs with Cult of dragon influence in those cultures (with the exception of the sheiam and the kuriotates) should have to fight to NOT become the cult of dragon paragon, perhaps it's very very bad to become the Paragon of the Dragon. Your units start getting replaced by barbarian units. Guh, could be interesting?
-Qes

The ideal would be change the graphic of the civilizations. Putting something on the name (like the set of Settlements) could work too.



I think it is. For the AI, it would need some work, and some leaders more than others, would choose this paths and forfeit the other religions. I just don't think it makes sense for a civilization to become part of what it adores, if it adores more than one thing.



What about this. A T3 Recon Unit with one of the promotions, at least level 2, probably, could go explore the Ancient Temple. It would take some turns, and, after that you have a chance of coming with a sacred relic of your religion. This relic would be taken to the HOly City and join it as an specilist given culture and gold bonus as people pilgrim to see it.

All of these answers, seem to me, to be overly complex, could we simplify each aspect?

I know my origional post is a grand/epic sort of thought, so the idea is to "take away" until we have the drool remaining but the simplicity as maximised as possible.
-Qes

Ok, let me try to simplify as much as I can (that's a hard work, believe me :)).


Graphics

Ideally, the best would be show the changes on each city and unit converted to Paragon State as a minor diference on the sprite. Let's say their clothes change and become for, for example. Every level would add another minor change. This has the advantage of need less work, but, since I don't know how Civ works with textures and meshs, I have no clue if it is possible or not.

If it is not possible to do this, and until we have other sprites to use, the best solution would be add a sufix on the name of the city to represent its new state. On the case of units a promotion would indicate it.

AI

Simply put, we added a weight to Paragonhood to be evalueted for the AI when it founds a religion. If the leader is religious he won't get any other religions and will start the Path, otherwise he will ignore it.

Ancient Temples

This idea was a little based on the Dragon Hoard unit that will come in 0.16. The recon unit enters the temple. It has to have the cargo slot empty. And, with luck (based on a number of factors that would need thought) it would find a Sacred Relic of his on religion. That Relic would be taken to Holy City where it would have the option to join as an Specilist, generating culture and commerce.

Digesting Ideas. Trying to synthesise.

"Reticulating Splimes"
-Qes

One problem with the exploring the ancient temples, if I recall correctly those temples are already dedicated to a god, aren't they?

One problem with the exploring the ancient temples, if I recall correctly those temples are already dedicated to a god, aren't they?
I don't know if they are, sincerely. My idea is that an older civilization worshipped there one of your gods, with luck, and a relic was buried in it. If you are out of luck, well, you need to burn that heathen place :)

Hooray for the wiki:
Killed by Kyorlin, the god of winter's power is gone and his worshippers fled. These temples are all that is left of the domination the god held over the last age.

Hmmm, although I remember reading somewhere that Kael was not satisfied with the temples, this is something diferent to do with them.

Well, pardon if this has already been proposed, I'm afraid I had to skip ahead. But going by QES's summary it hasn't. Something that could be done is take a page from the Cult. After a Civ has gone Paragon, have a % chance for all other same religion units in other civs have a chance of converting. More or less, while in general the other civs aren't as zealous, youd still get a few that were and would defect(possibly evolving) to the paragon civ. Only major problem I see with this is it takes away from teh Cult and what can make it such a pain.

Well, pardon if this has already been proposed, I'm afraid I had to skip ahead. But going by QES's summary it hasn't. Something that could be done is take a page from the Cult. After a Civ has gone Paragon, have a % chance for all other same religion units in other civs have a chance of converting. More or less, while in general the other civs aren't as zealous, youd still get a few that were and would defect(possibly evolving) to the paragon civ. Only major problem I see with this is it takes away from teh Cult and what can make it such a pain.

This is an interesting Idea, but what would the downside be?
The fundamental idea we want to maintain is that even if it's a "natural" transition, it should be incredibly painful. The benefits after full transformation will be significant and drastic, but the pains in getting there MAY not be worth it. Depending on the game.
-Qes

hrmm.. could be balanced with the possibility of not only other civs losing their units(perhasp even world?) but of the.. less, fanatical, in the paragon civ could defect to barb or other civ status.. possibly entire cities.

What about having Paragonhood as a small "cult" within the religion... your people worship their gods but the are so fanatical about it they begin to devote themselves to their religion and eventually a new "cult" will pop up that would have followers who think they are more close to the gods and the true followers of the religion (similar to the protestant revolution in earthly history-> catholicism split into mini-"cults" that got out of hand and eventually replace the original worshipers). This would also seperate the cultists from the original fallowers.

It would also give a negitive culture bonus. If a cult is in the city then it will spread and transform the cities culture into that that has to do with the cult rather then with the original believers.

When all the critereas are met a pop (like Orthu's) appears to you stating that you begin the road to Paragon. After it, a space bar (like the GPs one) will appear on the Holy City. It will grow according to the number of disciple units and temples of that religion you have, and will decrease for each other religion on your cities.

How about having a specific amount of great priests "living" in the city. Instead of adding a new bar (which would probably be painful for the programmers) have a new specialist that would contribute to the creation of the avatar (like the vampire govoner for the clan of the blood, except it would give gp).

What about having Paragonhood as a small "cult" within the religion... your people worship their gods but the are so fanatical about it they begin to devote themselves to their religion and eventually a new "cult" will pop up that would have followers who think they are more close to the gods and the true followers of the religion (similar to the protestant revolution in earthly history-> catholicism split into mini-"cults" that got out of hand and eventually replace the original worshipers). This would also seperate the cultists from the original fallowers.

It would also give a negitive culture bonus. If a cult is in the city then it will spread and transform the cities culture into that that has to do with the cult rather then with the original believers.



How about having a specific amount of great priests "living" in the city. Instead of adding a new bar (which would probably be painful for the programmers) have a new specialist that would contribute to the creation of the avatar (like the vampire govoner for the clan of the blood, except it would give gp).


This is pretty much antithetical to what I was hoping for (not to be harsh). This isnt about fanatisism, or even cultish activity. THis is about the transformation INTO that which one worshiped, the transformation INTO the divine. It should be painful in ways that prevent you from yousing great power against other nations, but perhaps the people IN the civ themselves love the transformation. I dont see this as an internal struggle for power, or a civil-esque war. I see it as like....well, for a lack of a better term, religious puberty. Your civ is changing, and growing, at times very ugly, and things will stretch and squeak. You're civ may discover a new interest in other civs. Some the targets of affection, some targets of scorn. Its a very insecure time for your civ.

But seriously, Paragoning into the Leaves should be very tranquil (if realatively weak), Paragoning into the Order should be marked by large events, and festivals, trumpets blaring, and the glories that be, are showered upon the masses. Paragoning into the OO shoudl be like falling into a maddening lucid dream, the populace slowly losing their senses and giving in. Sort of a Strangelove/Cathulu mix of emotions. Paragoning into the Runes should feel like wonders of the innerspaces of reality are being explored. Wealth and riches from being tapped into the "Source of all wealth" should be elicieted. Paragoning into the Veil should feel like the earth opened up underneath you and you stand amung demons and devils in hell - As an equal, not a slave.

So while it should be a slow painful process, this doesnt mean a negative process or one rife with strife.
-Qes

o i see....

what do you think about having this as a trait (a civ trait rather then a leader trait). If the trait is present then you have a chance (with the conditions that yohan listed) to start the evolution.

o i see....

what do you think about having this as a trait (a civ trait rather then a leader trait). If the trait is present then you have a chance (with the conditions that yohan listed) to start the evolution.

That might not be a bad idea, but as it is right now, idealy, any civ could become the paragon of a religion, as the whole of paragon status is about religion, not where you came from.
-Qes

another question... you said this would include the dragon cult. the dragons, would they be like high level or is it like a baby-dragon-growing-up-to-adult-dragons type of thing?

another question... you said this would include the dragon cult. the dragons, would they be like high level or is it like a baby-dragon-growing-up-to-adult-dragons type of thing?

Im uncertain if the cult could be paragonized. Im ambivilant on it.
-Qes

ok... i was wondering about that. I think you should update that in the first post :)

btw, i think its spelled " ambivalent", isn't it?

If the dragons were Paragonized, wouldn't it just be possible to have a few dragon "hereos," and the rest of your units more "reptilian".

buildings would be caves and holes in the ground

If the dragons were Paragonized, wouldn't it just be possible to have a few dragon "hereos," and the rest of your units more "reptilian".

buildings would be caves and holes in the ground

I suppose the Lizzard Folk might be able to find a home. Kobolds need love too.
Why not a few of you write up what the paragon would look like after its DONE.

I think this whole idea needs to start at a finished product and work backwards, instead of the other way around.
-Qes

Well some ideas might be mentioned already but i like to deliver my suggestions in one wrapped up package, so please don't be offended if you mentioned something similar before :)


A 4 step way to paragon sounds like the most appropriate way to go, but i do not like any "holy city" or "specific race" requirements. If some orc barbarians want to devote themselves to the defence of order, so why not. Fun is all about choices.

So here is what i cought up so far:

Step One - Shaping the world


Obviously you have to have a responding state religion and at least three temples (2 on duel and small maps) build to the religion before you can take the first step of becoming a paragon. The first step should weaken the civilisation considerably.

To start you have to build a national wonder (yes, more than one civ can do that per religion)

(wonder)
- +2 diplomatic bonus with nations of the same religion (faithful)
- -2 diplomativ relation with all other religions (fanatic)
- all non corresponding temples are destroyed
- all non corresponding religions are purged
- all workers you own are destroyed
- building normal workers is disabled
- if you are not OO all slaves you own will be destroyed, too
- you can upgrade your temple to a "nexus" of the corresponding religion

* nexus
- gives +2 happiness with corresponding statereligion
- gives a +8 unrest with all other statereligions
- prevents other religions to spread in that city
- gives access to religion specific workers (called shapers from now on)

- FOL gives Woodsman I to all newly build units in that city
- Kilmorph gives Guerilla I promotion to all newly build units in that city
- OO gives Amphibious to all newly build units in that city
- Cult gives Woodsman I to all newly build units in that city
- nothing for Veil / Order


*FOL-shapers
- Woodsman II promotion
- can work ressource tiles normally
- can not chop wood
- terraform all terrains to forest
- can build
# Elven Farm
# Elven Pasture
# Elven Plantation
(yes, that's no elven cottages, mines or new roads for you)

*Kilmorph shapers
- Guerilla II II promotion
- can work ressource tiles normally
- terraform all terrains to hills
- can build
# Cottage
# Roads
# Dwarven Mines
(no farms, sorry, you are about money and production, not population)

*Order shapers
- can work ressource tiles normally
- transform all terrains into grassland
- can build
# Cottage
# Roads
# Mines
# *Efficient Farm (like normal farm with an additional 0.25 to health, buildable on grassland only)

*Veil Shapers
- can work ressource tiles normally
- transform all terrains into tundra
- can build
# Cottage
# Roads
# Mines
# *Tower (tower improvement gives you +1 gold, only buildable on tundra)

*Cult Shapers
- Woodsman II promotion
- can work ressource tiles normally
- can not chop jungle
- transform all terrains into jungle
-can build
# Yuan-Ti cottage
# Kobold Slave Farm
# Kobold Slave Pasture
# Kobold Slave Plantation
(All 4 equivalent to elven counterparts, buildable on jungle only and giving +2 food, +1 hammer, +0.5 health additionally to counter jungle effects, destroy roads)

OO gets no shapers here, but they still retain access to all their slaves.
Terraform always destroys all improvements on that tile, including roads.


Step Two - Attracting allies

After building another national wonder, you can upgrade the nexus

(wonder)
- +4 diplomatic bonus with nations of the same religion (inspiring)
- -4 diplomativ relation with all other religions (heretic)
- Order gives Heroic Strength to all newly build units in that city
- gives one mana
FoL - Life
Kilmorph - Body
OO - Spirit
Order - Law
Veil - Dimensional
Cult - Chaos


Religion specific techs may be researched:
- FoL (One with Nature) +0.25 health from ancient forests
- Kilmorph (Subterran Farming) +1 food from dwarven mines
- OO (Breeding Slaves) can build human, dwarven, elven or orkish slaves
- Order (Farming communities) +1 hammer from efficient farm
- Veil (Undead Servants) +1 food, +1 gold from towers
(turning much of the working classes into undead reduces the need for food or payment, resulting in more for the mages to spend)
- Cult (Way of the Scale) +0.25 health from Jungle

Nexus
- +1 happiness
- gives access to Tier 2 flavour units, prevents building normal Tier 1 units



Step 3 - Favoured by the Gods

After building a worldwonder (now only one nation per religion gets lucky) you can upgrade the nexus again.

(wonder)
- You are instantly at war with every nation with another state religion and are unable to make peace with them.
- gives you access to the crusade civic
- allows an additional hero to lead the crusade (tier 4)
- -3 diplomatic relation with all nations of the same religion
- gives one mana
FoL - Chaos
Kilmorph - Enchant
OO - Mind
Order - Life
Veil - Entropy
Cult - Body

Religion specific techs may be researched:
- FoL (Elven Blood) +1 gold from ancient forests, elven, woodsman II and forest stealth for all new units
- Kilmorph (Subterran Living) + 0.5 :) from dwarven mines, guerilla 2 and for all new units, hills have a chance to spawn allied giant mercenaries, when an enemy crosses the cultural border (like treants)
- OO (Mindslaves) +1 hammer from water tiles, all newly build units get marksmen and command promotion
- Order (Righteous Fury) + 0.5 :) from efficient farms, all newly build units get undeadslaying, demonslaying and commando
- Veil (Demonic Blood) +1 gold from towers, all newly build living units get demon and sorcery promotion
- Cult (Draconic Blood) +0.25 health from Jungle, +1 hammer from jungle, all newly build units get dragon, march, woodsman II and forest stealth

Nexus
- gives +1 happiness, +2 hammers to city (it's wartime)
- allows tier 3 flavour units, disables tier 2 normal units
- gives one mana
FoL - Spirit
Kilmorph - Fire
OO - Mind
Order - Spirit
Veil - Death
Cult - Life



Step 4 - Enlightment

This time you have to build a ritual
- req: you finally have to own the holy city of that religion

(ritual)
- destroys all nexi / temples of the same religion outside your cultural borders.
- wipes your religion from every city outside your cultural borders
- prevents passive religion spread
- You are instantly at war with every other nation
- allows tier 4 flavour units
- summons an avatar of the corresponding religion

(Avatar)
- tier 5 unit (equivalent to dragons)
- immortal
- can consegrate any nexus or temple in a conquered city, so it becomes a nexus/temple of your religion.

Oh my, such a well thought out idea. Is there any way that I could help to bring this to reality?

(I do have experience in python programming, just not with Civ4)

QES has been unactive forevere... anybody has any idea where he's gone? i'd'e really like to see something like this happen...

It's part of being the idea hurricane. He'll be gone for a few weeks, then come back as strong as he ever was.

Or he got banned/haxored and he'll be gone for a few months for that reason.

I am starting to like this paragon idea a bit though. Perhaps it could be tied into armageddon and the end of the world... all your ideas are possible belong to the lazy dev team for the fire phase

all your ideas are possible belong to the lazy dev team for the fire phase

well, that's why they were written down here in the first place, weren't they? ;)

Tying it into the armageddon thingy would be even better because, as you may have noticed i had a hard time giving veil something special. Allowing them access to hellspawns would really improve the flavour of an end-time cult, but i have a hard time thinking about why a player should choose the armageddon option. It does not benefit him (aside from maybe harming others even more than him) in any way i can think of. But oh well, maybe an option for those survival type of games on deity, where you are not actually trying to win at all.

Ok Qes I have large ideas in my head, as I usually do, and about 15 minutes to get them all down tonight. First, Idea of rituals is great, I think your a little harsh, even for a paragon status, on the caster though. Also instead of static make it more changeable.
First Ritual 'Discovery' Agreed only T1 special units
Second Ritual 'First Steps' Agreed again
Third Ritual 'Sacrificial rites' Cultural Garrison? Don't know what that is. T2 units though agreed with.
Fourth Ritual 'Cleansing' Agreed, but maybe taken in steps, break down this ritual into smaller parts, first one takes away other religious buildings, second takes away non-military, and third takes away everything left.
Firth Ritual 'Ascension' The amount of anarchy should be equal to the number of different religions in your territory+number of other players with your state religion. You have to drawn on a lot of your god's power and its hard to do that with other people taking up his or her time.
Sixth Ritual "awakening" I can't suggest anything other than the pop. half right now, get back to me on that.
Seventh Ritual 'Party Time' At war with any religion opposite to you, in the case of ashen veil or Order, or better yet at war with any alignment opposite then you. Don't know what to do with Runes as they are neutral.

Units and Specials
Im going to start with the Octopus Lords because I like them so much.

Special Bonuses/Drawbacks
Good Melee
Bad Archery *in fact I would say known*
No or little fire magic
Excellent Ships
Decent recon

Keep the drown as the base T1 unit, its only a 3 attack power. But you can not make them straight you have to make a sacrifice, we will call the unit Drowning Sacrifice or some such, and then pay a small amount of money, 30 gold. Another little thorn for a paragon, need to keep an economy going.

T2 is axeman, but also boats so. Axeman replacement would be a Lesser avatar, something that looks like Cthulhu himself, 3 Attack power, +2 unholy, and mind level I. Boats...Sea creatures such as the kraken, not sure of its attack power. Also as a second boat allow for a 'Sailor's Dirge' type of ship, where it can spawn Drown, only in bay and only for 30 gold but no sacrifice. 5 Attack power 3 speed, 4 Cargo, 30% withdrawal *Because it can sink just as much as stay afloat, if not better* EDIT: Scratch Krakens for T2 they have a 12 attack power and 4 movement, give them sea serpent instead for 5 attack power and change its movement to 2.

T3 Mainly Disciple Units. Start with follower, then Priest of Dagon?, then Underwater Lord. Starter, 3 level, 5th level respectively. The follower gains xp like a disciple unit. The Priest can found a church/nexus without killing himself to do so. Underwater Lord can walk on water and has boarding so that he can take over ships. +50% vs. Naval Units.

Compliant Minds, 6 strength 1 move, replacement for macemen. Start with Mind I and something that prevents from being affected by fear. Crazed minds, 6/3 strength 2 movement, starts with Crazed and Blitz.

Ships- Undead Pirate Ship, also Undead Boarding Party. Pirate Ship, 6 strength 3 movement, Hidden nationality, Undead, and +40% withdrawal rate. Undead Boarding Party, 5 strength 1 movement, start with Undead and Boarding. Kraken, 12 attack power and 4 movement, because they have no actual strong ships just ability ones. Also a hero ship, the second one in the game possibly :), 7 attack power +2 water/ice +2 death 3 movement and 1 cargo, starts with hero.


T4 Mi’Go Emissary, 9 attack power 1 movement, -50% city attack +50% versus animals, can build a farm, cargo space 1 ‘carries “birds”’. Special Fungus Farm, no attack power no movement no range, but they can summon a 9 attack power explosive mushroom for 80 gold that starts with barrage I and II and lasts for 3 turns. Somewhat of a druid but they are supposed to be a recon unit. Chthulhu flavor also. National unit

Compliant Masses, 5/22 strength no movement, +25% city defense +25% archery units, reduces the pop. Of the city it is built in by 5 *good penalty for you?* Somewhat takes the place of shield wall, tried for a unique feel though and figured sense they have the ‘Tower of Complacency’ this would be a decent shield wall. Also, requires Tower of Complacency built, not sure whether to limit it to that city and give it a one-time teleport to another or just to have the tower needed to be built but not specifically in that city. National Unit

Dagon Spawn 8/2 strength 2 movement, starts with water II and III, sorcery, summoning, and water walking. Meant to replace berserker in a way, but instead of its collateral damage gave it summoning abilities, figured this more fitting of a Child of Dagon. National Unit

Child of Cthulhu 7 strength 2 movement, starts with immortal and water walking. National Unit

Some hero/avatar unit but I have no idea what that could be, I’ll look through the necronomicon for ideas.

Is this a good enough start for unique units or do I need to think up some more?

Buildings

The Deep Pool, can’t think of a better name, this would be the OO ‘nexus’ or super temple. Required to build all other units and buildings. +2 happiness, +6 culture, +30% cultural bonus, -2 happiness from any non-state religion, -25% war weariness *everyone is compliant so they are going to less likely to complain about war*

Sailor’s Graveyard, allows the building of ships and sea creatures. +20% production bonus for building naval units.

Great temple to the Transcendent Lord, national wonder, allows for the creation of Mi’Go Emissaries. -4 diplomatic relations with any follower of the fellowship of leaves, -8 with any paragon of the leaves. *Mi’Go are aliens, they look like giant crabs with fungus covering them and talk in movements and flashing lights, for those of you who do not know of them. Its another penalty worked in and even has a flavor reason :)*

Water of Complacency, an addition to The Deep Pool, +2 happiness and allows for the creation of Compliant Masses, along with The Tower of Complacency.

Gate to Atlantis, non-national, allows for creation of Dagon Spawn and Children of Cthulhu. +1 food and +1 commerce from ocean tiles. Needs a negative I think.

Ruins of Atlantis, world wonder, can only be built in a coastal city. All creatures built in city gain unholy taint and *Ability which gives increased attack power like +15%, in addition to bronze/iron/mithral weapon trait* -6/12 diplomatic relations with FOL, -4/6 with order followers/paragons. *basically this sets you at war with any fellowship of leaves follower and very close with order followers.*

If more things are needed Lovecraft put out a book called The Necronomicon and I can quickly search through there for ideas on buildings and units if need be.