http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/monte_junk.jpg

This is not a traditional succession game in that the full roster will play the same game and at intervals alternate between the least successful attempt and the most successful attempt as determined by a vote.

All players on the roster will be giving it their legitimate best shot. The roster is comprised of Prince and Monarch level players. End of round discussions will ideally provide some educational value.

The idea of fixing a succession game where the situation was regularly 'less than great' was Paul666's idea, and was floated in the Strategies and Tips forum. This format stemmed from that initial proposal. One successful 'trash game' has already been played that led to a Bismark-led Domination win on Prince.

The Settings

Leader: Montezuma (Aztecs)
Landmass Type: Standard Continents
Sea Level: Medium
Climate: Temperate
Size: Standard
Barbarians: Normal
Difficulty: Monarch
Speed: Normal
Victory: All types enabled however human player confined to variant
Version: 1.61 Vanilla

The Start

Mansa Musa (Mali) and Gandhi (India) are both included on the map. The other computer tribes are random.

http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/p666-02_oops.jpg

The Variant

Players play in rounds to agreed check points. Games are compared and discussed. The opening game (below) is played for 40 turns. The agreed least successful (non-loss) game is then played by all for the next round. Games are compared, then the most successful game is played. The game chosen alternates between least and most successful per round.

The Aztecs can only win by Spaceship victory.


The Players

Roster:

Cabert
Cam_H
Mice
Pigswill
VuDu

The Play

Slow! Games to be posted at latest by Saturday morning 'American time'.

Round duration to be determined by agreement or despotic direction depending upon the mood ... about 40 turns per round.

No reloads. No WorldBuilder.

Rounds

Round One: A round where there was a lot of variation, Calavente's game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4539572&postcount=10) was selected as the least successful, although few could deny that it shows a lot of developmental promise. Lack of immediate Copper and Horses could make for a difficult start, compounded by being 'sandwiched' between four rivals.

Round Two: Played to 875BC with the vote on the most successful submission that (again!) went to Armstrong's game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4577604&postcount=61) that had good expansion while picking up Metal Casting with The Oracle, albeit heading also along the top path with Literature in sight.

Round Three: Played to 125AD with the vote for the least successful submission going to VuDu's game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4590198&postcount=82) in a round where all submissions had a lot to offer in their own respective ways. VuDu's was one of the few that have six cities in the empire, with a strong percentage of land area.

Round Four: Played to 1000AD with the most successful submission going to Cabert's game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4628949&postcount=130) where there was conflict in the north and comfort in the south.

Round Five: Played to 1400AD with the least successful submission going to VuDu's game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4659045&postcount=157).

Round Six: Played to the end of 1650AD where the most successful submission again went to Cabert's game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4685684&postcount=183) where we took control of a large landmass percentage but also are very competitive technologically.

Round Seven: Played to 1820, where VuDu's game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4699852&postcount=201) was the one chosen as the platform for our final round where space is the next frontier! Apollo is nearly built and we're on the way to Robotics.

Round Eight: All players to take this one to completion.

got it
It's only 40 turns up to 850BC?
in the first thread there was a 2400BC deadline.
Are you sure about the 850BC?

Got it too (must be contagious).
Assuming 40 years per turn up to 1000bc or so that's about right; however I'd rather have a rounded year than rounded turns; maybe stop at 1000bc rather than 850bc.

40 turns is 2400 BC. Normal speed.

Excuse me for a moment while I just go and :wallbash:

I've already played to 850BC! I thought I was doing much better this time. ;)

I'll disqualify myself for this round, but might play a restart for the heck of it.

well, if we all go for 850BC, it's no problem!
but if we do, it must be trash game first!

No, it was my screw up. We should stick to the plan.

I have replicated my turns from the log of my 'first attempt'. :rolleyes:

I'll go first! Here's my save and log.
4000- gold from the goody hut; researching polytheism; going to build barracks for a bit before switching to a worker so the worker isn't standing around with nothing to do
3880- map from a goody hut
3800- masonry from a goody hut; met JC (close North)
3560- met Cyrus (NNW or SSW?); founded Hinduism; realized I forgot to switch my build to worker a few turns ago so switched now; researching animal husbandry
3440- met MM (SSE)
3320- scout from a goody hut
3200- finished animal husbandry; started mining
3000- finished mining; started priesthood
2880- met Roosevelt (NNW or SSW?); finished barracks; started warrior
2800- warrior finished; I'm eyeing up the stone to the East and marble to the North as next city sites; started building settler
2760- finished priesthood; started bronzeworking
2480- finished bronzeworking; no bronze uncovered so far, but have uncovered a large area; a scout is headed to check West for bronze on the edge of the continent; Mansa has ivory and will soon have horses; switched to slavery
2400- finished chopping one forest just outside of fat cross to help the settler along (due next turn)

I sent the warrior east to see if anything was in the water near the stone - he's still close enough to meet the settler at the border to guard him those last few steps ;).

whoa..
only one day and 2 people have finished...

I had forgotten that 40 early turns are played waaaay quicker than 50turns around the AD... or the post 1500's.. myabe it's due to the much lower number of things to do and micromanage..... ;)

I think I will find the time tomorrow to play 30 or so min .. so maybe it will be enough for the first round. (I hope) :please:

EDIT : I'm starting now... I'm currently in the 2700BC. it seems my save will be present for this rounds "trash game award"

here is my save :)

I could spare the necessary 1h30 :D

so the log events ...
-4000. settled inpace : only way to keep the three ressources... scout goes south, go for POLY, let the hut be until culture expend (I read that it had the best ratio for poping huts). build warrior :ar15: : we are in monarch here !!! no easy barbs as in prince.. or so I heard.

-3920 : hut gives a map south west ... see another hut : goto hut !
-3840 : initial hut giveas also a map south east with the border expand, discovers a hut west and one too far in the south west.
-3800 : 3rd hut gives a map : north with another hut.
-3680 : 4th hut givs 32gold.. buddhism founded in a far land.
-3600 : Cyrus' scout push his nose in from the north

-3560 : Founded Hinduhism in tenotchitlan... starts MINING : goooold !!! :bowdown: :gold:. Romans archer comes into view, north too.

-3520 : warrior is builded, make a worker. scout is now north, pops another map :cry: ...
but-but-but ??? isn't it roma ? youpi !!!
once in a while you get some usable maps from the huts !! :woohoo: "I can see inside RoOma !! I can see inside RoOOoMa !!!:high5: + I see some marble. scout goes south east.

-3320 : Discovered Mining go Agri (for farming the FP to be able to work the gold mines). warrior killed a panthere some few turns before.. meet the scout. Here I didn't went east enough to uncover the last black dot in which VuDu found some stone... silly me.:wallbash: and the scout goes south west to race for the last known hut..

-3120 : culture expand nb 2 in Tenotchitlan.
-3080 : Agriculture: go BW !!
-3040 : worker is done : build settler, gota dig a mine into that gold... "goOold!!! :gold:" :smug:

-3000 : ?? maybe 1 turn wrong or so?? I won the race to the hut !!! got another scout!!! twice the exploration power !! goes north. the former one tries to escape the lion. I notice that the river surrounding tenochti- tenotich-:mad: tenotchitlan are not connected .. :( I am really going to change those silly aztec names !!!

-2920 : Ohoh !!! here comes mansa mussa !!!
-2840 : and roozy !!!! Hi USA !! how are you ? oh me fine, thank you... I won't kill you now yknow, you seems to live too far in the south .. happy you!! oh, tell the story to your friend mansa mussa !! Meanwhile the scout plays 'hide and seek' with three lions. I'm not enough of a fool to try to make him fight if he can flee.

-2680 : Bronze working !!! "Do you want to change into slavery? yes ! I want to go slavery" I love this spiritual thingy.. ohoh ... no bronze save in the far far west ... glups. Go AH for farming the pig and try to see horses. and I found cyrus's estate.
-2600 : stumbled on ceasar's second city.. I have to really speed mine!! but currently I didn't have yet chopped as I have many things to do.
-2520 : made a mistake : sent worker to 2nd gold mine (1t) instead of pig (1t) and then AH in 1t ... lost 2 worker turns stupidly!! :hammer2:

-2480 : AH !! no horses ... ohoh.. there is one herd of stupid horses : between roma and the second roman city ... as if I needed that !! so how to say this : no copper... no horses... I'm in trouble.. what eases me is that us players are all in the same trouble !!! So go : Iron working !!
-2400 : end.
that's it..
overall not a bad start IMO, even if a bit under the AI's score, no very interesting goody huts.. but... luck is a b**ch. I have not found yet where to place my second city... (maybe somewhere hinted by VuDu's play ..)

I'm positive I won't be able to access internet from tuesday evening until next sunday evening.. so I won't vote..

and you know what : I thrill to play the next round... just to see what is behind the next hill !!!
see you later (alligator) and with a super huper cool trash game to salvage !!! (I loved this alligator thing from the time I first heard it. hihi (currently wanted a smiley, but limited to 15 pics...)

Reporting for duty! Cam, did you have a save from 2400 BC (or close thereabouts?) If so you could submit that. :)

Armstrong,

Yes - I have a save at 2400BC.

No - I can't submit my save as I'm 300 kilometres from my Civ computer. My work is in a rural area but I live (play Civ ;)) in the city on Fri-Sun. I'll be able to post on everyone's Thursday but Mice's, my trans-Tasman chum. :)

A quick preliminary summary:

The most exciting thing was having a scout run around finding huts. I popped three techs from five huts! I have produced barely anything, including a civil defense! ;)

Another submission for the trash game.

I thought about heading for an early religion as Monte starts with mysticism but then decided I would try to get a religion later and concentrate on locating metals early on because even if therewasn't any metal around I'd still have access to jaguars through IW.

In the event I started with worker, warrior, settler as my initial builds. Techwise I popped AH in 3760 which was lucky as I could then work the pigs early, 5 food making it possible to work gold and still grow. Otherwise I went mining, bronze (no copper nearby), iron (2 sources nearby), poly, priesthood.
I also popped masonry and two lots of gold from four huts. Founded second city and started mining iron just before 2400bc deadline.

wow!
it looks bad for me this time!

I'll post my submission somewhat later this week, but went almost the same way as calavente, had 0 luck with huts, had my scout eaten by a lion, and lost sight of my own strat :(
I'm the only one going for copper? Maybe that's because i'm stupid!Jaguar needs no metal, and iron working is necessary for jungle clearing = copper is useless in this game...

I popped Archery and a scout . Here's the save.

Built a scout in Tetih.... the capital, in order to build up population, which popped another scout, but still couldn't find copper.

Built an archer to continue the population grow and to work the gold. Teched to Pottery for cottages. Next will be to animal husbandry for chariots from the lack of copper.

Didn't go for a religion but plan to use the aggressive trait to take one later. Julius probaly the first target before he gets iron, Mansa for later when he has techs to extort and possibly a shrine. Or use him for trading later into the game. Will be interested in advice from others about this. Might need to let Julius live so Mansa has a second civ to trade with.

Here's my save.

Montezuma - A Religious Nutter

I figured that in the spirit of the game 'and what not', that we should play to the leader's strengths (which is why 'someone' vetoed my Genghis Cultural idea :undecide:) so I chased Polytheism (suspecting that Gandhi at least would go after Buddhism).

I popped Masonry from a goodie hut, and Monotheism was all of a sudden a real option. Popping Masonry largely knocks out my Stonehenge-based CS slingshot idea (still a possibility if avoiding Monarchy), but it will almost certainly lead to founding Judaism, and Organised Religion isn't the worst civic in the world either. Do I? Do I? Yeah! <Image removed>

:food: - Lots of :food:! Starting location.

This is another really good city site for our Capital (after P666-01), and aside from some looming :yuck: issues from the Flood Plains, to get two Gold tiles and a Pig River-Hill is imho great.

A quick food count; <Image removed>

Lots of possibilities. Five forests means one can go without affecting :health:.

We'll be after a Spaceship, so while I suspect we're in the northern temperate band of our continent (as per 'resource arrows') and will probably have a tribe to our north (later proved to be wrong ... two tribes!). If we like the Space Elevator - it should work around here.

Technology

The natives helped us. As noted I popped Masonry on my second hut, and got Fishing on my third. At this point Fishing was hardly a priority, but I'll take it. As also discussed, I did Polytheism > Monotheism for the religions. Normally I head directly for Bronze Working, but Hinduism and Judaism were just there in front of me.

The chase for religions did distract me from other pursuits. Unlike Mice, I didn't pop Archery, and the lack of Copper has made Iron Working / Iron? / Jaguars a priority, as the Barb's will be visiting soon enough. I'm still working on my second Gold Mine, but the tech' rate will get a hurry along when it's finished.

City Management

With no decent units to build, and tons of Flood Plains, and few tile-development Technologies (Hunting, Mysticism, Polytheism, Masonry, Monotheism), getting a Worker out was also going to be 'only so' useful. I opted to just work the Flood Plains and the two Oasis tiles while putting 1http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/civ4/hammer.gif per turn into Stonehenge, although I was tempted to at least make a start on Barracks - :smoke: decision? Perhaps. :undecide:

Once the city got to maximum :) population, I switched to a Worker (having now got Mining) and then a Settler (current build).

If Barbarians were to arrive, I have a large population that can easily whip a couple of Warriors - but I hope it won't get to that. I can also whip the Settler that's in my queue now and exploit the extra http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/civ4/hammer.gif yield that could overflow to a Warrior.

Summary

I've got two religions, which is great.

I've only got the capital, which is not great.

It's a big city for this stage of the game, which is great.

My science development has not provided me with a good range of Worker or Military technologies, which is not great.

I've popped some technologies, and have a Medic Scout :health:, which is great.

The three tribes that we've met all have Ancient or Classical Era UUs, and we seem to be stuck between them, which is not great.
I'm looking forward to seeing the other saves, and have checked out the ones already posted. :)

Here's my save. I played three days ago, so I actually need to go take a look at the save to remember what all happened. I remember my luck was better than some, but not as good as others. I think it would be sad if our "trash" game is decided by the luck of the huts... :sad:

I'll post some comments tomorrow.

Here's my save.


I'm looking forward to seeing the other saves, and have checked out the ones already posted. :)

don't you cry your heart out that your game won't be continued;)
I think we can safely say that your game won't be the trash game.
I wish I could say the same!

I forgot my USB key at home, so won't post the save right now (the turnlog is saved on this key too :sad: so no turnlog right now)

But I can tell my game looks like yours but without luck:lol: .
Ho, there is a plus part for my game: I have found copper, and have a unescorted settler going towards this largely useless spot.
I finally think this settler should settle somewhere on a river instead...

summary of my game:
I found hinduism,
Popped map, map, gold, gold, and her, hum, gold?:(
Explored a lot, then got tired and moved my scout in open land = eaten by a lion!
Found copper! Since my game look like a trash game to me, i can tell you where it is! On the coast, straight to the west of our initial position.
I've started the Oracle, and i'm researching AH (pigs! Our hindu nation shall eat pork, no beef! maybe we could eat some horses?).
After that i planned to go for writing then CoL and CS slingshot (yes, on monarch level, without being industrious! Our last game made me greedy:p ).

Good part :
- having a religion and being set on the oracle is good (we need a Great Prophet!). If we work the gold, we could manage the CS slingshot.
- having a settler out there is good, we can still make good use of him

Bad part :
- our military is 1 warrior:blush:
- the warrior isn't even well placed to open the way for the settler:mischief:
- we only have one worker (somehow, i forgot to go on worker hunting:sad: )
- we are surrounded by so many AIs i fear we'll be boxed in fast! (is it really a bad thing? It implies less barbs on our back + cities you don't have to build:lol: )
I was the one saying that a settler without escort makes a trash game.
Now here is my trash game:cry:

I'll post the save later today, when i'm back home.

I think we can safely say that your game won't be the trash game.
I wish I could say the same!

I've got three things going for me, and a heap against ...

On the plus side; Reasonable technological development (given some hut-luck) Two founded religions A large capitalCredit to Pigswill and Armstrong though for getting up second cities, and I think everyone had made good progress in somewhat different ways - good scouting, interesting tech' choices, etc.

Cabert - you've got to post a shocker or else it's going to be hard to pick the trash out of this round! :)

We haven't heard from Petrucci for a while now, and otherwise (aside from Cabert) everyone has posted their games. I'll PM Petrucci, but if he's not replying soon we may have to invite a new Noble-Prince level player ... :shifty:

I've got three things going for me, and a heap against ...

On the plus side; Reasonable technological development (given some hut-luck) Two founded religions A large capitalCredit to Pigswill and Armstrong though for getting up second cities, and I think everyone had made good progress in somewhat different ways - good scouting, interesting tech' choices, etc.

Cabert - you've got to post a shocker or else it's going to be hard to pick the trash out of this round! :)

We haven't heard from Petrucci for a while now, and otherwise (aside from Cabert) everyone has posted their games. I'll PM Petrucci, but if he's not replying soon we may have to invite a new Noble-Prince level player ... :shifty:

i didn't read anywhere that Petrucci agreed to play this game, so I assume there is one free spot (for this round i did the noob's job, so we don't need to go back to it ;))

and, what do you mean by "shocker" ? (must be some english expression i don' know yet?)

"Shocker" = "Terriablé" (or some French expression). ;)

"Shocker" = "Terriablé" (or some French expression). ;)

hum, i'm not sure i can understand your french better than your english :lol:
Terriablé? maybe you mean "terrible" (= "awful")?:confused:

I still don't understand. Do you mean :
1) I need to post a really bad game for it to be the trash game, or
2) I'll be in "trash game" position if I don't have a good surprise in my game?

Sorry for the :crazyeye:, I mean 1). :)

Sorry for the :crazyeye:, I mean 1). :)

well, isn't a garrison of 0 warrior, an unescorted settler, and a ill placed fogbuster enough to be "terriablé" (where did you find this one??? i'm laughing at the office because of this :lol:)?
If i didn't care about my daughters watching me, i'd :wallbash: :hammer2: :aargh: :suicide: after i played.

At least you've got an unescorted Settler. ;)

So here is my save, a turn log (not a real log because the game crashed)

What i remember : i went for hinduism and got it in 3560 BC.
My first warrior came in 3400 BC.
I went for BW next (mining would be useful for the gold even without copper)
After BW it's wheel, then priesthood for orace, then HA.
with both gold mined, i whip a settler for the copper i have found west.
Bad idea! I don't even have a warrior escort!
oracle is next build (to be chopped!)

OK ... we'll close it off here!

Voting to moi ... Le Cam_H :)

3 votes for least successful
2 votes for second least successful
1 vote for third least successful

Please submit your votes in the next day-and-one-half. In case of a tie, I'll make the casting vote. You can't vote for your own game ... however bad you might think it is! ;)

No movement from Petrucci in the last few hours, and as Cabert said; he hadn't indicated an interest in P666-02.

We're looking for a Noble-Prince level player.

b.t.w. - all the games were 143kb-144kb in size. I know that they should be approximately the same size, but I was surprised at the similarity in size.

Nice capital VuDu. Highest commerce/research. It's hard though to compare this to the value of a land grab.

I'm glad we're voting for trash game this round because best game would have been a difficult choice; I don't know how you compare number of religions to number of cities for instance; how important is it to locate metals compared to general exploration?

well, isn't a garrison of 0 warrior, an unescorted settler, and a ill placed fogbuster enough to be "terriablé"
Not in my opinion :lol: (mine is the same!).

Nice capital VuDu. Highest commerce/research. It's hard though to compare this to the value of a land grab.
Thanks, it's proof I learned something from the last game. Maybe not enough to keep me from having the trash game, but it is improvement!

I'm glad we're voting for trash game this round because best game would have been a difficult choice; I don't know how you compare number of religions to number of cities for instance; how important is it to locate metals compared to general exploration?

my typical goal on exploration is
- to find the metals (at least one!)
- to locate the nearest enemies
- to find good city spots.

This is decreasing priority order for me.


edit : I must say that our "noobs" all did show a good deal of skill.
:goodjob: VuDU! Having the 2 gold mines improved and working them both is really good!
:goodjob: mice! having laid a cottage already is good work too! (where is your granary?)
It really looks like my game is the worst :cry:

We're waiting for one more batch of votes to come in (Calavente's also indicated that he won't be voting), but I think Pigswill has summed it up nicely in that it's hard to pick 'better' or 'worse' games that are just 'different'. I do think that the luck element does show up in the pre-Medieval Eras more, where Hut outcomes and Barbarian activity is essentially random. I suspect that picking the most successful game in this Round would be a tough call if we were to do that, just as picking the least successful one has proved to be.

Well, I was the last holdout for the votes (apologies!) but mine have been cast now. I'm was very surprised that no one else who moved the capital 1s... it's a much better long-term commerce city, which is really important for the space race. Was the lure of the second gold just too much for everyone to pass up? :)

Was the lure of the second gold just too much for everyone to pass up? :)
Yes. ;)

OK ... the tribe has spoken ... and we're going with Calavente's game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4539572&postcount=10).

Despite picking up the 'trash game', we're in a sound position with a good look at the continent's layout, four tribes met, and apparently the only tribe so far to have a founded religion. The Pigs will soon be in a Pasture, and we have Agriculture to push the population along. One of the two Gold tiles is mined. We have two Scouts, a Warrior, and a Settler is being produced in Tenochtitlan.

Another strength of Calavente's game is that he's also got Animal Husbandry (as noted, the Aztecs can access the Pigs), which also gives us a look at the placement of Horses. As was the case with all submissions this Round, Calavente has got Bronze Working, so we know where the Copper is (or more to the point, isn't). We're on the way to Iron Working.

So - I think we can pretty safely say that for a 'trash' game we've got a pretty decent start! :thumbsup:

We'll play to 875BC like Round Two of P666-01, although if anyone wants to comment further on Round One, feel free.

Yes. ;)

OK ... the tribe has spoken ... and we're going with Calavente's game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4539572&postcount=10).

So - I think we can pretty safely say that for a 'trash' game we've got a pretty decent start! :thumbsup:


I second that!
We should be in a good position after round 2.
A strong religion is higly important when going for space race, because we want to tech fast = peacfeul trading.
I think it's time for religion spreading to some good trader hint hint.

Here's an early entry. Seriously doubt it'll be best this time round (and seriously worried if it was)

Went for a bit of expansion and theology slingshot. Founded second city sw near gems and corn; built another settler while teching towards mono and writing. Settled third city to the west near iron and wheat- wiped out by barbs (defended by a warrior vs barb archer). Got theology slingshot through oracle, stayed in hinduism which has spread to rome, switched to theocracy, got three jags, building another settler in capital. MM had turned confucian.

Here's an early entry. Seriously doubt it'll be best this time round (and seriously worried if it was)



Wow!
that was fast!
Just wanted to say that your first entry seemed the strongest to me.

Please find my game.

Round Objective: Oracle slingshot and Expansion

I gave up on pressing ahead with exploration, and opted to bring back the Scouts for fog-busting.

I attempted The Oracle build (with 'non-industrious' and 'Marble-less' Montezuma!) with a view to picking up the common choice of 'Code of Laws'. The technology switch was made immediately out of Iron Working and into Priesthood.

The Settler headed North-West to the Wine-Silk site and established Teotihuacan on the computer-recommended blue circle. The decision to settle there rather than one tile West was not an easy one, as I was trading off a potential Wheat tile for Silk and Floodplains.

With Priesthood researched and The Oracle underway in Tenochtitlan, it was Teotihuacan that had to build the next Settler if we were to expand quickly.

Next Technologies

I was mindful of the potential Barbarian problems, and weighed up Archery (cheaper defensive-oriented Archers) versus finishing Iron Working (more expensive but better Jaguars {with Combat I}). At slightly more than two-thirds the :hammers: cost per unit, I opted to first go with Archers.

The Oracle slingshot to Code of Laws required Writing, so that was next.

Completed Iron Working ... if Tenochtitlan or Teotihuacan were to miss Iron in their fat-X, then I wanted my third city (Tlatelolco) to get it. As it happened, what we lacked in Copper we made up for in Iron with two reasonably close sources.

I like whipping, and I like Granaries ... the Gold was disconnected also, so The Wheel and then Pottery were next in line.

Pfew ... The Oracle came in and Confucianism was founded in Teotihuacan (Tlatelolco would have been preferable, as it is better laid out for a commerce city). The free Missionary was able to spread the religion to Tenochtitlan. We now have :gp: points for a Great Prophet http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/icons/icon3.gif.

Alphabet is being researched currently.

Cities

Both Teotihuacan and Tlatelolco could have each been one tile to the West. Tlatelolco requires a border-pop in order to access Iron, which is 'do-able' with a switch to the Caste System and the employment of a Specialist Artist (if a religion failed to leak over), which will unfortunately stop growth if done before any tile improvement. Again, the choice was whether to favour immediate access to Special Resources over having more River tiles (I've noted that a couple of players opted to head South to access the Gems, which is an interesting approach).

<Image removed>

I whipped a Settler in Tenochtitlan with an almost-complete Archer in the queue, so a fourth city is all but done.

Religion

I've switched to Confucianism to appease Julius Caesar. There was no cost to make the change out of Hinduism. With two Holy Cities, the opportunity for Shrine income should be reasonable. Religion is providing +1:), but there's no useful Religious civics available at this point in this submission.

Petrucci has apologised, but he will "skip" this thread (P666-02) although hopes to get involved perhaps with another game at some future point when RL isn't so hectic. :)

Here's my submission.

2200 Founded second city.
1440 Open borders with JC
1320 Founded third city.
1200 Open borders with Mansa.
1120 Open borders with Cyrus; Roosevelt beat me to oracle by a few turns - he has stone in his fat cross. :( Researched IW, priesthood, writing, CoL, wheel, working on alphabet.
1000 Open borders with Roosevelt; founded Confucianism.

here's mine! fast round everyone?

prethoughts:
we are low on troops, population, and workers
I plan to build at least 2 units /city+ 2 workers (ie 3 cities by 875 BC).
turn 1 : set both scouts to heal, move warrior towards a banana, gems and wheat city site.
turn 2 : move south scout back north to fogbust the future city site, warrior moving south to fogbust from the north. Pigs are ready to cut into ham ;). Sausages are made.
turn 3 : settler is ready, start a warrior. Settler moving to city spot. Moving worker to gold n°2. warrior still moving south. Moving north scout (not yet healed) to fogbust west of capital.
turn 4 : west fogbuster in the forest. Warrior between capital and city spot. South fogbuster on jungle hill, worker on gold n°2. switch capital production to barracks.
turn 5 : warrior moves south on jungle hill = finally some decent fogbusting. settler moves south. worker starts mining.
turn 6: south fogbuster moves one north to check for barbs. Noone. settler moves south. warrior keeps jungle hill position. JC settles near West fogbuster. No need to fogbust around his city. The unhealed scout moves nearer to capital.
turn 7: technotitlan is size 3. settler arrives on selected spot, but cannot settle (no move left). I move the scouts south west (both!) to improve fogbusting.
turn 8: north scout heals and fogbust. warrior fogbusts, south scout moves sw to improve fog busting, settler settles (duh!). Except for the pike, it's a nice city spot= on the river, with 3 ressources. It will require a lot of worker turns to be great, but it will be great.
turn 9 : gold mined. south scout moves to hill, and spots a warrior bad case of underpowered fogbusting! he'll have to run! gemsville builds a warrior. worker moves south.
turn 10 : barracks built in technotitlan. start worker. IW due in 1. worker moves south. barb warrior moved away.
turn 11 : IW discovered. go for writing. barb warrior comes back. worker starts chopping forest for another worker. west fogbuster moves further soouth to cover the worker. Iron near technotitlan. no really priority, since jaguar don't need it. technotilan switches to jaguar.
turn 12: judaism fidl. worker finish chopping (hammers to the worker). technotitlan goes back to a jaguar. barba warrior moves towards the scout, so i move the fogbusting warrior towards gemsville. batb archer spotted. set gemsville on jaguar building, intending to whip it in a few turns.scout movess away west (another hill).
turn 13: barb warrior moves away. I move the scout back on his hill. here they are : archer and warrior. worker moves south. West fogbuster moves south too.warrior in gemsville. hurray, we're protected :crazyeyes:.
turn 14: kankan musa is hinduist, and asks for open borders. I agree. He's pleased. loads of barbarians everywhere. W fogbuster moves north to escape one. worker moves south.
turn 15: jaguar finished in technotitlan, he stays home for while. back to producing worker. worker moves to gems.
turn 16 : writing discovered. I start researching alphabet (we lack wheel and pottery, but it can wait). worker starts clearing jungle.
turn 17: JC settles just on our borders. culture flipping food. Since JC does the NW fogbusting i move the w fogbuster south.
turn 18 : w fogbuster moves further south in the woods. barb in sight.
turn 19 : i had forgotten to move the south fogbuster away from the barbs. Now he is dead :sad:. jungle on the gems is cleared. gemsville is size 2. ready to whip the jaguar.
turn 20: cyrus demands open borders. I agree. worker starts on gems mine.worker finished in capital. starts on jaguar (we need at least 5 jaguars to attack a few enemies, don't we?). I move the worker to the NW (forest to chop, then iron to improve :crazyeye:).
turn 21 : barbs surrounding gemsville. I whip the jaguar. I hope there will be enough left to finish the warrior next turn.
turn 22 : worker moves away (north) from barb and fortify the jaguar in the city. I pray it holds. without any hammers from the mine, there is no warrior finishing this turn :(.
turn 23 : 2 barb warriors and 1 barb archer die to my jaguar and warrior in gemsville :). I move the worker back to the gem and start mining again. barb coming from the east of the capital (should have seen him before!), so i move the worker away and move the jaguar as target.
turn 24 : east barb dies to the jaguar (not hurt!). another barb appears from the southwest. i send the jagaur on him with 98% odds. Tight combat but the jaguar wins. I set gemsville on a library (warrior still in queue, i'll put a few hammers in it next turn to avoid losing some). The gems are mined. Technotitlan is now size 4, with another jaguar on our hands. i put some hammers in a warrior in technotitlan.
turn 25 : Set technotitlan to a library. 20 hammers from chopping will make it faster :). I move a jaguar on fogbusting east.worker starts clearing the banana spot.
turn 26 : worker starts mining the iron. Without wheel it won't do much, but alaphabet is due next turn, and i hope to trade for wheel and such.
turn 27: alphabet in. i go for litterature. cyrus offers fishing for mysticism. well, let me think about it, will you?
I check relations : the odd guy is rooselvelt with bad relation to JC. he is he only jew among us hindus. I'll avoid trade with Teddy. I trade writing for archery and the wheel to JC. Oups, I forgot to switch back to library in gemsville. Now i'm the happy owner of a warrior :(. I move him east for fogbusting.
turn 28 : a barb warrior is coming from the southeast. I send a jaguar out to greet him. Another barb warrior comes to my east fogbusting jaguar. Let him come. I move the jaguar in gemsvilee sw to go on fogbusting spree.
turn 29 : east barbs die to my jaguars. South fogbuster in jungle. East fogbuster on jungle hill. I trade IW (!) with kankan musa for pottery and priesthood. cyrus has discovered writing all alone. Now i know why he wouldn't give much for it. I whip a library in technotitlan.
turn 30 : barb archer comes from the north, barb warrior from southeast. I move away the worker (this iron is still unimproved!) and move east fogbusting jaguar on a forest next to the barb warrior. south fogbuster in the jungle far south. Must beware of possible west incoming barbs.
turn 31 : barbs everywhere ! the barb warrior didn't attack my jaguar. Instead he moved towrds my capital. archer coming in too. Another archer comes from west of gemsville (what did i just say?) so i move my jaguar back towards the city. Worker has put a road on the banana, so no big deal.start granary in technotitlan.
turn 32 : barb warrior finally attacks my east fogbusting jaguar. the archers are coming next to the capital and gemsville. Let's hope the RNG won't kill our game.I whip a warrior in gemsville (it's obvious the lone warrior in there will die and i can not bring the jaguar fast enough to the city.
turn 33 : north barb suicides on capital's garrison. South barb kills the defending warrior (!good thing i whipped this warrior!). I kill the archer with the home coming jaguar. It's a tough game!
turn 34 : chopping for granary finishes in technotitlan. barb killers put to heal. litterature is there. Time for great library? not yet. I will finish this granary! Research set on CoL. Move the worker to another forest. Ready to chop the GL.
turn 35 : south fogbuster moves W. Barb warrior there!
turn 36: Granary finishes in technotitlan. Start on GL. I kill the barb warrior with my jaguar.
turn 37 : trade polytheism and pottery for masonry to JC. I move the capital's garrison to face another barb archer (fogbuster needs healing!). South fogbuster goes back to cultural border for healing. south worker goes north to road/cottage.
turn 38 : must have missed some turns, it's 875 BC already. Barb archer suicides on jaguar. I overplayed (saved in 825 BC :(), but went back with an autosave.

we're still low on cities and pop and workers :(

not so fast... :)

sad to be again the :smoke: :king:

:D

I never found that RL was so demanding ... until this P666 challenges ;)
But I will be ok with the deadline.

sad to be again the :smoke: :king:

:D


maybe if you had voted, the outcome would be different:mischief:

The only bad thing about your game is 1 city with a total of 2 pop. Compared to every other game, your's was the lowest on this particular issue. Even mine was better for this :lol:

If you're not used to monarch, beware of barbs!

Wow. I got beaten to Stonehenge by 1 turn, and hadn't even started on Oracle before it went. Wiped some Jaguars to fend off the barbs and settled another 2 cities. Monarch is different.

Haven't planted 1 cottage as I have been keeping the workers alive and the iron connected. Teching to metal casting to trade it. Have got Monarchy to try to build big cities in the early game and make use of the gold,gems,floodplains.
But it looks weak with no barracks or graneries.Open borders all round and good trade routes so far.

Calavente,

Well the :smoke: :king: is not something that you want to be especially, but I wouldn't be too despondent about it this time. Sometimes it just boils down to who's strategy the other team members respond to, and who had luck on their side.

My guess is that you went Worker > Warrior > Settler, and consequently your capital didn't find the population growth to put yourself in a strong position at 2400BC, however I think that you haven't set it up too badly for the current round.

Thanks everyone for posting your games. I look forward to checking them out later in the week. :) Having read the initial 'blurbs', it seems again that we've headed in a few different directions.

Calavente,

Well the :smoke: :king: is not something that you want to be especially, but I wouldn't be too despondent about it this time. Sometimes it just boils down to who's strategy the other team members respond to, and who had luck on their side.

Well, there's also the luck factor. I know I popped almost all of AH from my first hut, which sped everything up techwise. Some folks got two techs; Calavente got none.

My guess is that you went Worker > Warrior > Settler, and consequently your capital didn't find the population growth to put yourself in a strong position at 2400BC, however I think that you haven't set it up too badly for the current round.

I don't think Worker > Warrior > Settler was that bad of a move. Rather, I think the main thing that slowed Calavente down was the research path: Mining > Agri > BW before Animal Husbandry. Don't neglect those 5F1P porkers. :)

I don't think Worker > Warrior > Settler was that bad of a move. Rather, I think the main thing that slowed Calavente down was the research path: Mining > Agri > BW before Animal Husbandry. Don't neglect those 5F1P porkers. :)

you're wrong there.
With flood plains everywhere and 2 oasis, you didn't really need the pigs to grow. I don't want to brag too much with my miserable game, but i did research those techs too and had enough pop to whip a settler.

While you have enough food to grow with oases and floodplains the big advantage of pigs is that you can work a goldmine and still have excess food.

Having said that it did not occur to me to go AH first, if I hadn't popped it from a hut I'd have gone mining, BW before thinking about AH.

you're wrong there.
With flood plains everywhere and 2 oasis, you didn't really need the pigs to grow. I don't want to brag too much with my miserable game, but i did research those techs too and had enough pop to whip a settler.

I still disagree. ;) After you count the 2F to work a tile, an Oasis gives you 1F2C. Pigs give you 3F1P. That's a huge difference - the Oasis gets 2C more a turn in exchange for 3 F/P from the pigs - in the time working the Oasis would net you 80 beakers for a basic tech, the pigs will have gotten you an extra settler and warrior.

If you look at my game you'll see I can whip my second settler in 2 turns. And it didn't slow my research down very much - I still managed to bag IW.

As a general strategy, I found it's almost always best to research (if you don't have one yet) a food resource technology first. Even with our gold here, we want to grow to size 2 quickly before building our settler, so we're going to be better off getting a food resource up asap to minimize the amount of time we have to spend not working the gold mine.

While you have enough food to grow with oases and floodplains the big advantage of pigs is that you can work a goldmine and still have excess food.

Right. And if you have two gold mines, you can work both of them at size 3. I only took one because I wanted long-term production, but it seems if you settled in place AH first would definitely be the optimal choice. :)

Here is mine..

relly a contest for the trash game.. if it was the good round..


made 2 big mistakes at least : went math after litt instead of priesthood.. (for COL and GP)
mischecked the second city site : quite a good one, but 4 deserts instead of 1 ... I swear I counted 1 when I founded the city ..
-2280: finished settler : go warrior.
-2200: warrior2 => barracks
-2160: teotihuacan founded on other floodplain site... oups stone at culture 3...
-2080: a scout steps right into an archer's hands...
-2040: 2nd gold finished.
-1980: IW -> writing ... for Litt + barracks ok => jag
-1920: judaism founded somewhere
-1800: jag 1 => jag 2
-1760 : writing : go alphabet.
-1720: roosvelt and rome : OB -> ok.
-1600: library in tenotchitlan. worker on third gold mine.
-1480: cyrus OB : ok. barb warrior killed on city2 spotted a barb city with 1 jag.
-1320: Alphabet -> litterature => MM exchange wheel for poly;
-1200: roosvlet wants writing for pottery... got fishing as an extra. granary in teotihuacan... some turn latter changed it to worker as the city grew too fast.
-1040: Litt : math (an error)
-950: MM asks alpha. .. arg hate that !!! should/should not .. NO!!
-925: granary finished in teno : starts GL.
-850: Math : priesthood (COL and temple for priest specialists). moved a worker for cutting forest... hmm. math gives better forests... maybe will boost the GL :)
so you see, not so good... but it was fun..
never been so outpaced by the AI in a game .. but then I never played monarch before..:crazyeye:

Calavente,

I can't download and look at the game right now, but it doesn't look too bad to me!

I really wouldn't beat yourself up too much about going for Mathematics, as (1.) the forest chop bonus is really handy, (2.) The Hanging Gardens is a useful Wonder if you aim for it, with :gp: points to Great Engineer, and (3.) it's a prerequisite technology for both Construction and Currency, which are each very worthwhile technologies.

It's a good window of opportunity to have Alphabet while Mansa doesn't.

Armstrong and Cabert,

It would be interesting to do some numbers on this one. I'm in agreement with Cabert in that the Oasis and Floodplains make population growth pretty easy in this instance, but the opportunity cost of going Agriculture > Animal Hubandry seemed a lot when there were religions to grab! :) I'd be glad to be corrected however ... this is a learning exercise after all!

I really wouldn't beat yourself up too much about going for Mathematics, as (1.) the forest chop bonus is really handy, (2.) The Hanging Gardens is a useful Wonder if you aim for it, with :gp: points to Great Engineer, and (3.) it's a prerequisite technology for both Construction and Currency, which are each very worthwhile technologies.

It's a good window of opportunity to have Alphabet while Mansa doesn't.


cam_h, why the spoiler tag?
Math is also prereq for music.
There is pro and con for going towards maths:
pro :
- chop bonus
- prereq for very handy techs, including my personnal favourite, construction

con:
- the AIs go for it every single time = tradeable
- not cheap



Armstrong and Cabert,

It would be interesting to do some numbers on this one. I'm in agreement with Cabert in that the Oasis and Floodplains make population growth pretty easy in this instance, but the opportunity cost of going Agriculture > Animal Hubandry seemed a lot when there were religions to grab! :) I'd be glad to be corrected however ... this is a learning exercise after all!

you stated it, it's not about number crunching, it's about different goals.
If you go for a religion early, those oasises (2!) are the best possible thing : no tech required, good commerce and food. YOu grow fast enough and get your religion. If you don't need the techs RIGHT NOW but like to get it faster later, the AH is clearly ahead. You will want this very high food asap+showing horses can do only good.
As afterthought of round 1, I really think I should have gone agri>AH while building a worker, then mining>BW while building a warrior or 2. Pigs + gold = :D . Then it would be time for wheel and pottery (all those FPs!), while building/rushing a settler. We really should have focused on military (=pop and tech at this stage) rather than religion; since you can conquer a holy city with troops, but cannot kill troops with a holy city :crazyeye:.
IMHO, pigswill did the best start in this direction (however no wheel = no metal and no chariots = no troops)

When I arrived at math I hesitated :
-go for currency toward CoL ?
-go to priesthood toward CoL?
-go to music for the GA ? (very early Ga seems kinda cool!! but 17turns...)
(edited : music instead of drama)
you know, I went to math to go CoL and go cata... then noticed that it was 2 tech cheaper (+ many beakers) going through prisethood ...:crazyeye:

I've an other issue : with jag and no copper, I'm kinda reluctant to go to war early. no powerful strenght 6 swords... that We could have build with iron.. (there goes the main interest of jags...) and jags are just axe, without metal, + 10%CR instead of +25% vs melee... While they are better than axes to fight metalless ceasar they are worse than sword as we can hook iron if it was necessary..

how to go to war in this kind of game? (this is only for theorical thinking)
-hook iron and build many axes?
-build many jags?
-wait for cats?

it is helpfull that ceasar seems to have no iron to arm his preatorians :p

When I arrived at math I hesitated :
-go for currency toward CoL ?
-go to priesthood toward CoL?
-go to dram for the GA ? (very early Ga seems kinda cool!! but 17turns...)

It's music that gives the free artist. And it's not a cheap tech, but it's quite helpful IMHO, though for a space race it's not necessarily needed...
It's highly tradeable if the sistin chapel isn't built yet.

you know, I went to math to go CoL and go cata... then noticed that it was 2 tech cheaper (+ many beakers) going through prisethood ...:crazyeye:

you need maths for construction. priesthood won't give you anything towards catapults!
I've an other issue : with jag and no copper, I'm kinda reluctant to go to war early. no powerful strenght 6 swords... that We could have build with iron.. (there goes the main interest of jags...) and jags are just axe, without metal, + 10%CR instead of +25% vs melee... While they are better than axes to fight metalless ceasar they are worse than sword as we can hook iron if it was necessary..

how to go to war in this kind of game? (this is only for theorical thinking)
-hook iron and build many axes?
-build many jags?
-wait for cats?

it is helpfull that ceasar seems to have no iron to arm his preatorians :p
The fact that JC has no iron is a spoiler!
Other than that, he makes a good target because :
- no iron
- not creative
- loads of smallish cities (= thin defenses)

Dear Cabert,

I've modified the post to enclose what you consider a spoiler.

For me it is not so.
may you read why ?:mischief:
I don't think that saying that ceasar has no iron/metal is a spoiler.
I haven't got more land discovery in that direction (north) than was already discovered in my -2400 save.
Furthermore, as IW was already in the process of being researched, I am supposing that even people that may have changed the current research toward another goal have searched IW way before the end of the round (if only to avoid loosing some beakers.) so everybody should see quickly that there is no iron there (unless they have not yet played the game)
Last : saying that he has no iron is mostly a guess as he may have some in it's northern border but I think not. so it is an educated guess and not a real truth.

...hmm I will also hide the fact that we have iron in our border in case peole have not already strated to play (yep, I forgot about that one.)

Hey somting awfull comes in mind : we had no strategic ressource in our fat croos, even in the 2nd expension : neither copper/iron(3rd-4th expension) nor horse.. that should mean we have either aluminium or coal or oil or uranium..
I hate strategical ressources that come so late when they deprive me of earlier / more useful strategical ressources in my core cities.


oups I didn't meant drama.. I meant music... that's the one that was 17turns expensive

Dear Cabert,

I've modified the post to enclose what you consider a spoiler.

For me it is not so.
may you read why ?:mischief:

it is, because some people (not me actually) have not played the round yet.

Jaguars ain't as powerful as swords obviously but cheaper and easier to build; don't need to hook any metals just go ahead and build them. We get cheap barracks and free combat 1 which helps as well; this was my rationale in going for theology slingshot rather than traditional CoL/CS route. Theocracy and barracks gives combat 1/CR2 jaguar straight from the barracks and that's a pretty reasonable unit.

Cabert: this is why you don't actually need wheel and roads and mines and all that tedious infrastructure to build an army.

There was a Monte based SG fairly recently that basically demonstrated the power of the jaguar.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=175856

Jaguars ain't as powerful as swords obviously but cheaper and easier to build; don't need to hook any metals just go ahead and build them. We get cheap barracks and free combat 1 which helps as well; this was my rationale in going for theology slingshot rather than traditional CoL/CS route. Theocracy and barracks gives combat 1/CR2 jaguar straight from the barracks and that's a pretty reasonable unit.

Cabert: this is why you don't actually need wheel and roads and mines and all that tedious infrastructure to build an army.

There was a Monte based SG fairly recently that basically demonstrated the power of the jaguar.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=175856

I think we'll be in a much better position with a few axes and spears.
Jaguar are good targets for axes.

I think we'll be in a much better position with a few axes and spears.
Jaguar are good targets for axes.

Partly agree. Jaguars are like cats (unintentional pun); good city raiders but need protection; stack of jags with medic spear and shock axe is the way to play them. What it means is you can capture a city and whip a jag or two to replace losses.

ok cabert..

I think you're right... I forgot that soomme people may not have begin to play.. but it concerns all information about iron, not only ones concerning foreign Ai leaders

Armstrong and Cabert,

It would be interesting to do some numbers on this one. I'm in agreement with Cabert in that the Oasis and Floodplains make population growth pretty easy in this instance, but the opportunity cost of going Agriculture > Animal Hubandry seemed a lot when there were religions to grab! :) I'd be glad to be corrected however ... this is a learning exercise after all!

There's no need to grab Agriculture. :) You can get AH through Hunting before your first worker is built. I'm absolutely positive that working a 5F1P tile is stronger in nearly all circumstances than a 3F2C tile - it increases the productivity of that tile by 300%!

I'm not to sold on grabbings lots of religions for Space Races, especially if you're a spiritual civ. You want to minimize your hammers, and since you're spiritual you want to spend as much time in Representation instead of Universal Suffrage as possible, so you don't have much excess capacity for building missionaries. I know when I go for fast spaceship wins with spiritual civs I've never spread more than 1-2 religions, and they tend to be my fastest.

Okay, here's my game. Now time to look at everyone else's! :)

I settled to the west first - rivers are so critical for space race, and we were getting crowded in there. I sent the next settler to the gem location, and my third settler is ready to be sent to a coastal location that has good hammers next turn.

I grabbed the Oracle in my second city for some more culture and took Metalcasting - forges will be nice since we have two metals.

Tech path was IW > Pottery > Writing > Priesthood > Alphabet > Literature for early Great Library. Want to try to trade for Monotheism to get a bonus on building GLib (forge will help too, since there's no marble.) I might go to war with JC to grab his marble city if it's feasible.

There's no need to grab Agriculture. :) You can get AH through Hunting before your first worker is built.

Excuse me while I :wallbash: ... again.

I'm absolutely positive that working a 5F1P tile is stronger in nearly all circumstances than a 3F2C tile - it increases the productivity of that tile by 300%!

But is a 5F1P tile better than 2 x 3F2C + 1 X :religion:?

I'm not to sold on grabbings lots of religions for Space Races, especially if you're a spiritual civ.

:mischief:

All up ... a lot of interesting submissions ... is a Monarchy rush better than a Theology rush ... or a Metal Casting rush ... or a Code of Laws rush ... or a Literacy rush ... or 'lorks a Lordy' - no rush but a balanced game ... http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/icons/icon5.gif

Calavente ... could you count the votes for this round please?

Please PM Calavente your votes in the next two or three days; 3 votes for the most successful submission 2 votes for the second most successful submission 1 vote for the third most successful submissionDo not vote for your own game.

I open the floor for discussion ... and in the meantime I have done my blurb on my game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4564329&postcount=38) ... apologies for the delay.

i'll try to open the saves tomorrow or saturday, but i can't promise.
Looking at my own game, it doesn't look like a good candidate, so my non voting should not have any big influence on the result (no one in his right mind should vote for my game with only 2 cities, a smallish army, no wonder..., so it will not be selected because i didn't vote for another).

just one thing about agri or not before AH,
you will need agri or fishing for pottery later,
I know some of you grabbed fishing from a hut, but for those who didn't (like me!) it's better to research agri first then AH, it makes AH cheaper, so it's overall faster than AH, then wheel, then agri, then pottery+you won't have your worker fast enough anyway, so you may just as well research agri first.

I haven't looked at anyone else's games yet. For those that completed the Oracle, did you chop or whip it? If so, do you do that regularly, or do you base it on the date or some other factor that I'm clueless about?

I chopped the Oracle; two chops I think. Never whipped the Oracle. Chopping depends on date and also number of wood tiles around. Date should not be a huge factor because if you decide to go for Oracle it makes sense to beeline.

VuDu,

In this instance I just did a straight build, with a focus on :hammers: tiles. I'm a little wary of chopping around Tenochtitlan given the :health: bonus from the trees (although we do have an odd number) - The Oracle was a risky move that worked for me this time.

I haven't looked at anyone else's games yet. For those that completed the Oracle, did you chop or whip it? If so, do you do that regularly, or do you base it on the date or some other factor that I'm clueless about?

I put a single forest chop into the Oracle where I knew I was going to clear the forest at later. Even with two golds, I didn't try for a CS slingshot, grabbing the lower-hanging fruit of Metalcasting instead.

Normally, I probably would have whipped a population or two off to speed up things, but in this case I wanted to make sure I had enough population available in case I had to whip a quick jaguar or axeman to defend the city.

As for dates, I very loosely have the following "safe" dates in mind -- all of these can and do get beaten, though they're often much too conservative too, and a lot depends on the map settings/opponents/etc.

Prince: 1000
Monarch: 1300
Emperor: 1600

as with my game I will never even want to vote for me...

I will be here this WE so I can count the votes if needed.

(I will have to look in depth to all games... in order to not be influenced by other people votes. it will be interesting.) ;)

Lets determine the one the will have the honor to be played for the next game.
I am currently counting 7 submissions/saves :
armstrong,
cabert
pigswill
mice
vudu
cam_h
me

is s/o missing?

No, we started with seven. Advertising for a Noble Prince without success.

My votes are in. Armstrong, can you say why rivers are so critical for space races.

My votes are in. Armstrong, can you say why rivers are so critical for space races.

Well, to win a space race quickly the main thing you need is really fast teching, which means lots of cottages. Generally 2-3 production cities can build all the parts, so the key is lots of commerce. Rivers give +1C a tile; every 7 river tiles in a city is basically a free gold mine one you're working them all. :)

But is a 5F1P tile better than 2 x 3F2C + 1 X :religion:?

Well, it's not fair to compare a 5F1P tile to two tiles, especially since the pig tile would let you work a second one sooner. ;) As for religion, though, I mentioned I'm not a fan of founding religions in space races. Let me explain my reasoning.

If you found a religion and build the shrine, it costs you not only the opportunity cost of founding the religion, but also a great person to construct the shrine. In a fast space race you're going to have tons of commerce cities that are making 80+ commerce/turn, so you could use the GP for an academy instead for 40+ beakers. Unless all of your religions are in the same city, every shrine not in your Wall Street city then needs to spread religion to at least 20 cities to be equal to the academy.

That's a huge amount of production - 1600 hammers, to be exact.

Here's a screenshot from my most recent space race victory. There are 7 cities making 80+ commerce a turn, and 8 more making 50+. It's a lot more straightforward to build an academy in one of those cities than worry about a shrine/missionaries/etc:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i58/ArmstrongSG/Civ4ScreenShot0083.jpg

Btw, don't too much into this screen shot - I was just trying to show the distributions of commerce cities. There's a lot of :smoke: involved since it was a won game at this point. :crazyeye:

Regarding pig tile vs oasis; you can argue oasis has more commerce but pig hill and gold hill gives 5f/4p/5c vs 6f/4c for two oases(14 vs 10).
Regarding religion; I agree you don't need multiple shrines as much as you need multiple academies but one shrine with money multipliers and wall street will likely give you more gold than you'd get beakers from an academy though you do have to invest a lot of hammers in a money city. Its also worth considering religious civics- OR for building, theocracy for warfare and pacifism for GP production.
Regarding voting I've voted.

Well, it's not fair to compare a 5F1P tile to two tiles, especially since the pig tile would let you work a second one sooner. ;)

I know it's not fair :devil:. Eventually the Pig tile would be worked, after you produce your Worker. I guess we've got a start with a heap of Floodplains and Oasis tiles, and to me, while I don't dispute the value of Pigs in a Paddock, going out of your way to increase food production at the cost of Shrine income was a questionable (but not necessarily wrong!) strategy.

Then again, it's not fair to suggest that founding a religion means that you're missing out on an Academy.

Thanks for your screenshot :). A lot of B.C. cities there!

Regarding religion; I agree you don't need multiple shrines as much as you need multiple academies but one shrine with money multipliers and wall street will likely give you more gold than you'd get beakers from an academy though you do have to invest a lot of hammers in a money city. Its also worth considering religious civics- OR for building, theocracy for warfare and pacifism for GP production.

Right. I really appreciated having Hinduism to pop boundaries too. On the other hand, you can get religion from other civs, too, for religious civics, and don't have to worry about spreading your religion in order to keep your diplomatic bloc in line.

There's also the "hidden" benefit of Free Religion/Paganism -- trade routes with everyone, and culture from all religious sources. This makes these the Paganism/Free Religion the best civics for teching (except Pacifism in some cases.)

I know it's not fair :devil:. Eventually the Pig tile would be worked, after you produce your Worker.

Ah, I see what you're getting at now with the two tiles. :)

Then again, it's not fair to suggest that founding a religion means that you're missing out on an Academy.

It is too fair! :p It costs the same number of GPP to get a scientist and a prophet as it does to get two scientists. Of course, it is possible to end up with a prophet accidentally, especially if you build the Oracle, but you can avoid that. You can also usually grab Philosophy to found Taoism, which will give you a holy city while being on the path to Nationalism & Liberalism.

Thanks for your screenshot :). A lot of B.C. cities there!

Most of those are enemy cities that have been renamed to proper "Egyptian" names. ;)

I'll send out my picks soon - I've evaluated the saves, but somehow was thinking that we were picking the "best" game, so it's back to take another look. :blush:

Edit: Bigger :blush: We are voting for the best game...

I've got the votes from
pigswill
Cam_H
mice
Me (it was a hard choice)

Armstrong : I have one vote from you (given by Cam_H).. is it still the good one after your edit of post 74 ?

VuDu and Cabert : we are waiting for your votes !!

It is true that you still have a full week-end to make your vote (until october 1st 23h59 ..but..

if you give them sooner, we will have more time to play the round.

Armstrong : I have one vote from you (given by Cam_H).. is it still the good one after your edit of post 74 ?

Whoops, yes, that is my correct vote. I needed to pay more attention to the vote-taking process... :blush:

I've got the votes from
pigswill
Cam_H
mice
Me (it was a hard choice)

Armstrong : I have one vote from you (given by Cam_H).. is it still the good one after your edit of post 74 ?

VuDu and Cabert : we are waiting for your votes !!

It is true that you still have a full week-end to make your vote (until october 1st 23h59 ..but..

if you give them sooner, we will have more time to play the round.

don't wait for my vote!
it won't come before sunday evening french time...

ok

just waiting for VuDu then !!!

:santa2: HoHoHo !!
guess what?

the winNNEEEeeeer is ...

..

c...

...

Ca...

...

Cal...

...

...ARMSTRONG !!!

yeah !!!:rockon:
good play guy !!

you were plebiscited by an absolut record of 11 votes for you on a max total of 15 !!!
(only 7 voters, 1 abstention = 6votes; cannot vote for one-self : 5*3=15 max)

11/15 is IMO a very good score!!

WE gonna play Armstrong's game :wavey:

And if I count correctly :
we are playing ending this round at 125AD.
We have until friday 6th, october to post our save for the "trash game selection"

:D :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :D

Firstly, great game Armstrong - the result doesn't surprise me! Well done. High land area %ge, comparatively high raw score, high 'soldiers' rating, and Metal Casting 'to-boot'!

Secondly, no rest for the wicked! :mischief: ... a bellyfull of 'Veuve Clicquot' ... and an iPod full of 'System of a Down' ... and "yee-ha!" Please find attached my 125AD attempt. No wonder I keep submitting 'middling' games! ... one last thing to do though at 125AD.

Round Objectives: Expand and develop Science Centre

The Great Library

Armstrong put us along a good course towards building The Great Library. It was suggested that getting a Forge built would hurry the process, however rightly or wrongly I just went straight after the Wonder when it came available on the same turn as Tenochtitlan’s Library was built. A Temple was built in mid-construction as Tenochtitlan’s development was stymied with unhappiness.

In the meantime, some Cottages were founded, plus a farm for whenever (if ever) the population needs an additional surge or to cover a Specialist Scientist. In time it may be decided that this could be converted over to a Cottage.

In the end I was running two extra Specialist Scientists in Tenochtitlan to encourage the popping of a Great Scientist, although The Oracle in Teotihuacan produced a Great Prophet, forcing out the :gp: points required for our Great Scientist.

Growth

Expansion was done by settling and towards the end by force. Those Roman cities were starting to bug me, and it would be a shame for our Jaguars not to see any action ;) and an Iron-less Rome with what looks to be a very ordinary starting location and (The Great Lighthouse) was a bit of an invitation. It’s a shame about having to take on our Hindu brother, but that’s life I guess. Jaguars have a mix of 'general' and City Raider promotions.

I have a Settler roaming around with an Axe and a Jaguar down in the jungle, while Tenochtitlan has another Settler on the way.

Advances

Technology-wise, looking at expansionary-type advances; Code of Laws and Currency will allow a larger empire, while Construction (Catapults – prerequisite for Engineering) will allow for better city attacking. No technology trading with other tribes – Mansa was unwilling to trade Currency, and otherwise I figured that we could live without (or sue for peace, or pick up as extras with a larger and later trade) anything else much on the table.

City Specialisation

I must admit though that some cities remain somewhat schizophrenic on their roles, as I wavered between the need for commerce versus production cities in this game. Having another more objective review of the game one day later, there are some pretty debatable builds going on at 125AD – certainly Teotihuacan’s Courthouse could do with a rethink! I have made progress on The Colossus, but while the extra commerce will be very handy, it is a Great Merchant popping Wonder that may detract from our efforts to get Great Scientists.

Overall Strategy

I think that the expansion in to Roman turf was the right move (with The Great Lighthouse also in sight), while there’s at least two further settlements to be founded (provided the Settler build in Tenochtitlan doesn’t get cancelled). Getting The Great Library was a great relief, particularly given we have at least two Industrious leaders in Roosevelt and Gandhi.


The chronology;

725BC : Although Armstrong made it clear where his preference was for Texcoco, all of that jungle looked pretty uninviting, and I opted for the closer-to-home spot to the north-east (includes Oasis). This may interfere with a yet-to-be-built city to the east of Tenochtitlan in terms of fat-X overlap.

Literature > Mathematics (various motivations).

Christianity fidl.

675BC : Roosevelt builds The Pyramids and leaps into his favourite civic; Universal Suffrage :) .

650BC : Parthenon elsewhere.

575BC : Mathematics > Code of Laws (founding Confucianism was still a possibility, Caste System could be handy with Specialist Artist border pops and unlimited Specialist Scientists, Courthouses to support expanding economy, Civil Service prerequisite).

400BC : Rome builds The Great Lighthouse.

325BC : Code of Laws > Currency (trade routes and Market to support expanding economy). Confucianism founded in Texcoco -

150BC : Temple build in Tenochtitlan to address a spot of unhappiness.

125BC : Attacked Roman Empire with mini-SoD of Jaguars. Stole a Worker near Cumae, and took Neapolis.

100BC : Currency > Construction (principally for the Catapults).

25AD : The Great Library founded in Tenochtitlan. Captured Cumae (with Winery).

50 AD : Avar – a single-population jungle-bound Barbarian city is destroyed by a Persian Immortal.

A Roman Chariot steals a worker near Cumae. D-oh!

75 AD : Construction > Civil Service (Bureaucracy to bolster Tenochtitlan as the Global Centre of Scientific Excellence).

100 AD : Oracle-derived Great Prophet popped (unsure how to use!).

As we stand:

<Image removed>

that was quick :)

well done.

and ... just to say it: people decided you were not so much 'middling' ;)

Here's another quick one!

725 - Founded T4 at pre-approved HE site.
700 - Researching CoL
625 - Open borders with Cyrus
550 - Open borders with Roosevelt
475 - Researching Math
400 - Cyrus converts to Hinduism
325 - Researching Currency
225 - Founded T5 to get stone and another gold
125 - JC demands CoL and I turn him down
75 - CoL to Mansa for Monotheism, Sailing and $310; Gold to JC for 2 gpt; researching Construction; switched to Organized Religion
1 - razed barb city
75 - Founded T6 one west from barb city remains for overlap of one tile with T3, but still get 5 resources in the fat cross; researching Civil Service
100 - CoL to Cyrus for Monarchy and $70; sent Hindu missionary to T5; sent GProphet toward T1 to build the shrine
125 - Still lowest in power rating; all cities are connected with a decent network of roads; have some money to allow research at 100% for a while; another missionary in queue to spread religion to T5 unless the shrine takes care of it first

Fairly straightforward round.

We're falling out with Mansa coz he's being greedy. Completed Great Lib in 50ad, completed Hindu shrine in 25bc, starting to buildup a stack, only one more city but heading towards war!!

Looking at the other saves I get that sinking feeling.

I posted my 125 BC save , duh.

BTW in Cam's opening post it reads that the third round and following rounds will be 50 turns.This means we should have played to 375 AD. Nevermind, but we need to agree on the next round.

BTW in Cam's opening post it reads that the third round and following rounds will be 50 turns.This means we should have played to 375 AD.

That's because I have no idea what I'm doing! :crazyeye: ;) I'll fix that soon.

Then again, you've played to 125BC, not 125AD. :D Roll on!

Oh dear, thats embarrassing. I'll play on.

Now it's the right date.

First ten turns; founded river gold city Teching Monarchy to Maths/Construction
forge and GL started in Capital

Second ten turns; Founded Heroic Epic city, because Armstrong said so. Axe build because worried about Mansa

Third ten turns; War builds,barracks,forges,axes. Waiting on priest and GL.(whipped a temple)

Fourth ten turns; Priest appeared,shrine,GL finished,Construction in and catapults on the way. Cannot decide wether to attack Julius(easy and near) or Mansa (biggest threat)

Double post, I'm wondering about teching in general, not just this game.

When you can tech next to CoL/C.S. or maths/construction ... which is the most favored path. I know its very situational, but of for example if there is no pressing need to attack, would the government techs be better in the long run?

Next queston; you can tech CoL/C.S. or maths/commerce. Which will build the better economy in the near future?

Next question; alphabet/literature or CoL/C.S. which for the most science?

I guess I'm asking, in a "neutral" situation, what are peoples preferences.

Double post, I'm wondering about teching in general, not just this game.

When you can tech next to CoL/C.S. or maths/construction ... which is the most favored path. I know its very situational, but of for example if there is no pressing need to attack, would the government techs be better in the long run?

Next queston; you can tech CoL/C.S. or maths/commerce. Which will build the better economy in the near future?

Next question; alphabet/literature or CoL/C.S. which for the most science?

I guess I'm asking, in a "neutral" situation, what are peoples preferences.

there is no neutral situation
here we are spiritual, meaning we can switch to bureaucracy witout anarchy, meaning it's a good boost
better than markets
in other situations, i go for currency, because of trade routes.


by the way, here is my save.
didn't intend to fight, but JC attacked me...

I'm not saying that I'm right on any of this, but you asked for opinion! ;)

I'm inclined to echo Cabert in that there are too many variables to say unequivocally one path will be better than another ...

... Compound that with the fact that Civil Service alone at 800:science: is 200:science: greater than Mathematics and Construction, and 150:science: greater than Mathematics and Currency. Add in 350:science: for Code of Laws, and the ‘Code of Laws > Civil Service’ path is more than a normal technology ‘longer’ for that point of the game.

Personally I try to get Civil Service with a slingshot (usually via a Great Prophet), which can seriously distort my technology path, and when I’m busy getting humiliated in my feeble attempts at Emperor (which I'm just about giving up on!) even getting a timely slingshot is chancy.

I would say in both this game as well as P666-01 that Berlin and Tenochtitlan respectively were set up as such important cities thanks to some excellent resources and a bendy river, and as such Bureaucracy really stands out as an important civic – more so for the extra :commerce: than :hammers: in my opinion.

I tend to favour Currency over Construction as it is usual for me to have an Axe rush and find myself financially stretched. A lot of the time the A.I. has got to Feudalism, and I tend to hold back for Maces + Catapults in the next wave rather than persisting with Axes + Catapults versus Longbows. If there is Ivory, then that would change the priority!

Howdy everyone :) I've been awol for a few days - I thought I had posted that, but evidentally I only posted it in my SGOTM.

When you can tech next to CoL/C.S. or maths/construction ... which is the most favored path. I know its very situational, but of for example if there is no pressing need to attack, would the government techs be better in the long run?

I'll echo the sentiment that it's entirely situational, and a lot depends on the difficulty level and how good the start is and how the trading situation looks. You can usually trade for Alphabet for Math right away on Emperor, for instance, but not on Monarch.

Generally, I have two paths:

1. Religious route. Build the oracle to grab something, Monarchy > CoL > CS.

2. Secular route. Math > Currency > CoL > CS, with Calendar thrown in as needed.

And then there is the Alphabet > Literature > Drama subpath. If I'm going to build the Great Library, or want to use theatres for happiness, I'll go this route. Otherwise, I'll get Alphabet once I think there will be good trades to make with it.

The value of Currency is highly dependant on how many other civs you can get open borders & trade routes with; +1 commerce/city is nice but not spectacular, but +3 is. And as Cam said, CS depends on how much commerce your capital is generating. With starting gold mines and/or early river cottages, the value of it increases significantly.

The difference between the Secular and Religious route depends heavily on what kind of happiness options you have available. If, for instance, you have access to lots of happiness resources Monarchy isn't as important, while if you don't it can be critical (along with Drama.)

Next question; alphabet/literature or CoL/C.S. which for the most science?

It really depends. My gut instinct is that if you can get CS before Lit and still get the Great Library built CS is better, but otherwise Literature is better. If you can't (or don't want to) build the Great Library I don't think Literature is very valuable initially (you need a functioning GP farm or a 10xp unit for the national wonders to be useful.) The higher the difficult goes up the more value you get from using a GS to lightbulb high-value trading techs like Philosophy, which makes an early GLib more useful.

Thanks for the replies guys. I guess as you realize the implications of these tech choices, the decision becomes easier based on the situation. It is a weak area of mine, as it probably is with all people learning the game.

If you can't (or don't want to) build the Great Library
I'm curious armstrong, Why wouldn't you want to build the GL? Do you mean the case where you're just building military like crazy.

Thanks for the replies guys. I guess as you realize the implications of these tech choices, the decision becomes easier based on the situation. It is a weak area of mine, as it probably is with all people learning the game.

I think tech decisions around this time in the game are the hardest parts of the game for me - you're juggling so many things (happiness, culture, military, wonders) that there's no easy way to find the best way through. I almost always regret one of my choices: why did I get Literature so early when I'm not ready to build the GLib yet? Why did I get Calendar when I was relying on Stonehenge for culture? Why did I delay CoL now that I need courthouses to fix my economy?

I'm curious armstrong, Why wouldn't you want to build the GL? Do you mean the case where you're just building military like crazy.

Basically... some other situations I can think of where I've decided not to build it:

1. I'm going for a cultural victory (I don't want more than 1, maybe 2 Great Scientists)
2. Gandhi/Catherine is my neighbor and he looks like s/he'll build it (and I'm okay with declaring war to steal it)
3. I don't think I have a very good chance at getting it due to low production & having rivals that are Industrious/have marble, and I was forced to trade Alphabet to stay competive techwise
4. I'm on an Archipelago map, and Metalcasting/the Colossus is a higher priority.

right armstrong! Good examples of out of reach/unwanted great library rush.

I'll add the following : you may want to finish a few infrastructure buildings before going for the GL (= situation 3, temporarily).
In our game, i didn't want to go for the GL before having a granary (for the health+whipping food) and a forge, so i could have researched another tech before going for litterature, without losing any production turn.

Here it is...
-850 : settler
-750 : go CoL
-550 : Ceasar : "I Want You to Cancel Your OB with Infamous Mali!" :nono:
Cyrus becomes Christian... but not the founder!!!
-475 : CoL : Confucianism in Teotihuacan or tlaetloco?. Go Math
-450 : OB with Roosvelt.
Grand renaming of cities : Gemsvalley and JagsHeim (epic city) (or something like that).
The irony is that at the end of the round, Teotihuacan has build 5-6 jags, and JagsHeim is still growing/cutting jungle and has build none....:mischief:
-400 : Start the GL. jag => jag
-175 : Roosvlet trading : Mon + Sail + 70gp for CoL .... ok
Cyrus trading : less good : Monarchy for CoL
-125 : Construction => Currency (somewhere in between I had discovered Math so go construction)
-100 : Temple finished in Teotihuacan => assigne 1 priest to rush the GProphet and build the 1st cat.
-50 : Rome goes Hindu... so I can see inside rome...
-25 : GL finished in capital => granary (for the health..) (the city bulding the GL was size 8 and unhealthy. as I hate those clouds, I acted to remove them!!
1AD : MM is trading Calendar for Metal casting ... ok
+25 : Launched attack on barb city.
+50 : GP founded some turns earlier.. used to build the 'Kashi-Vishwanath' and earn 10gpt.
+75 : raze barb city / ceasar founded stone city .. I really gonne kill him.
+100 : Currency => music for GA (I am envisonning a war with ceasar.. super culture expension will do wonders !!!) ;)
Temple in Tenotchitlan => can grow + starts market. with all that gold produced.
+125 : OB with Cyrus.

Overall, not so bad, a bit surrounded by ceasar, but I am building a stack to attack him, (with 2 cats in it) and he has no metal ..ouf) that's it...

See you soon all.

I've done a 'statistical analysis' on the criteria I think are useful indicators on the games submitted to date, and I think that we're going to have a tough time picking out a trash game this round!

Games that are weaker in some areas are stronger in others. :undecide:

Armstrong ... it's up to you to submit some real rubbish this time! ;)

I've done a 'statistical analysis' on the criteria I think are useful indicators on the games submitted to date, and I think that we're going to have a tough time picking out a trash game this round!

Games that are weaker in some areas are stronger in others. :undecide:

Armstrong ... it's up to you to submit some real rubbish this time! ;)

i can replay it and give you what you want :lol:

Yes ... well ... what is it that they say ... sometimes it's better to be lucky than good! ;) :D

It took me a few seconds to work out what went on there, and then ... "Ohhh - that's what he's done!" :)

Yes ... well ... what is it that they say ... sometimes it's better to be lucky than good! ;) :D

It took me a few seconds to work out what went on there, and then ... "Ohhh - that's what he's done!" :)

:lol:
Could very well be a trash game, with just one less unit

Re: teching in early middle ages. I tend to go for stuff like CoL and metalcasting coz usually calendar, currency and construction are AI faves making them easily tradeable; if you're able to wait then you can pick up the 3Cs for one tech in simultanous trades.
There certainly ain't clear gaps between games so choosing best or worst isn't easy.

I'm thinking that I would be going for war against Mansa at this point. If you cripple/annihilate Mansa AI tech-trading slows dramatically. At the start of the game skirmishers will defeat axes comfortably; later in the game Mansa tends to have better units so the window of opportunity is when you've got cats against skirmishers.

is the round over?
who coordinates votes?

No word from Armstrong ... so send your votes to Cabert for counting.

We're looking for the least successful submission, so;

3 votes for least successful
2 votes for second least successful
1 vote for third least successful

:nono: You can't vote for your own game, however 'disappointing' you think that it might be! ;)

Please get your votes in within the next two days.

(Armstrong - you can still vote if you wish, provided it's done in the next day or so).

pff..

I can't seem to be able to note those games...
either less powerful but soon maces..
or less cities but more pop/ more units..
and almost everybody is at the same tech (the only differences are more tech !!)

hard to find one that is worse !!
a best game would have been easier to find. :D well done everybody !

Help for voters : we're aiming for space victory.
It requires production and tech for the long run.
I value very high sooner teching + strong economy + city placing and infrastructure.
The other key for the win is to bring down strong opponents, but it's continents, and it's very likely the other continent is full of AIs trading like crazy before we can find them! For me it's not the right option here.
We should use our trading partners, then bring them down (and capture their best cities).

Edit : I have the feeling some of you (well, at least one!) forgot that we're spiritual = free civic switches.
I made all my efforts towards getting a good civic to switch too in every category : HR/bureaucracy/slavery/OR (theocracy is better but i have no monastery for now and I needed missionaries)

Edit 2 : I only have 1 vote in for now + my own. I know it's tough, since no game is obviously bad, but it won't be easier tomorrow :lol:

Edit 3 : I have 4 votes + mine. 2 missing : VuDU, Armstrong.

Even without the last 2 votes, we have a "winner".

Everyone got his share of votes, but ...
if we except pigswill's massive vote for himself...

VuDu's game is our starting point for next round.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139591&d=1159709911
If I'm not totally out of my mind, we'll be playing for the best game at 1000AD.
Game due friday at midnight US east coast time.

Got it. Should be a good round. Mansa or Julius... hmmm.

Even without the last 2 votes, we have a "winner". VuDu's game is our starting point for next round.
Sounds unanimous :cringe: :D . Since my vote isn't going to change the results, I will skip sending it in, and accept this round's "trophy".

It was a very tough round to judge, but VuDu's is one of the few games with six established cities, so I think that we've got a lot to work with.

I think that it would be fair to say that the quality of submssions on average have lifted since the first few rounds of P666-01, so I hope that all players, especially 'the artists formerly known as the Prince level players' feel that their games are 'on the improve'.

Thanks Cabert for doing the votes. While the focus on this round was on the least succesful submission, I thought that your game was strong - to get an Academy in Tenochtitlan while also being close to getting Macemen by 125AD is good work. While you were attacked by Rome rather than being the aggressor (which is actually much better from a diplomatic stance anyway) it's encouraging to see some conflict underway.

I have two very big work weekends coming up in a row, so I will struggle to get a submission on in time for this week (1000AD) although it's an outside possibility, but will miss the deadline for the following week (1500AD). Please skip me, although I will be able to assess the games after the submission deadline and will be following the thread.

Should we discuss future strategies?

I am not sure to what extent we should start discussing the game in terms of strategy and tactics from now onwards. Armstrong submitted a game where he indicated where the Heroic Epic city should go, while Pigswill made a passing reference as to who he thought our first target should be.

It doesn't concern me one way or the other to discuss tactics in advance - is it 'more educational' to have the roster discuss strategy before the playing takes place, or is it better for people to make :smoke: moves and then see the (possible) errors in their decisions?

Analysis

I had written a small thesis on game analysis ;) but chopped it out

I welcome further game analysis - particularly in this last round where I thought that there was an 'evenness' in the quality of the submissions. Having said that - I'm at work for most of this week, and can't do an analysis myself!

On the idea of discussing strats, I look for hints from other players, but on the other hand it might be better if we don't, so we can see the different approaches more clearly. If we really want to stick to the fix my trash game variant then it's better I think to let everybody run in their own directions.

I'm making notes of things I learn but mostly it's finding out what monach difficulty is like.

Will study the saves some more.

It was a very tough round to judge, but VuDu's is one of the few games with six established cities, so I think that we've got a lot to work with.

right!

I think that it would be fair to say that the quality of submssions on average have lifted since the first few rounds of P666-01, so I hope that all players, especially 'the artists formerly known as the Prince level players' feel that their games are 'on the improve'.

right again!
I must say that I had not voted for your game first VuDu, because 6 cities (not ideally placed maybe, but it's debatable) is much better than my 4 + one captured.
As I said everybody (I didn't say almost! everybody has at least 2 votes, including me, cam_h and pigswill) had his share of vote, showing that the choice was tough, but It's true your game was cited by everyone, and IMHO the main reasons are
- the lack of infrastructure
- low tech level
- GL not yet built.

Arguably, you're in a better shape than others who need to go to war (or worse already are into a war like me) to expand, but we're running for space and for this you don't need landgrab as much as you need good cities!

There is a lot of playing style difference that makes the choice tough and I can see people voting one game the worst and others voting it the best, so no sweat for "trash game" and no brag for "best game".;)

Thanks Cabert for doing the votes. While the focus on this round was on the least succesful submission, I thought that your game was strong - to get an Academy in Tenochtitlan while also being close to getting Macemen by 125AD is good work. While you were attacked by Rome rather than being the aggressor (which is actually much better from a diplomatic stance anyway) it's encouraging to see some conflict underway.

About coordinating the votes, sorry about the delay! I could have given the result earlier, but RL got me (karting is fun;) ).
And about my own game, I'm not too proud, since :
- I had gold and gems pillaged by romans:cry: That's partly why I had scientists running in technotitlan and so that's why I have an academy already :lol:.
- I had to sue for peace when a lone HA threatened a worker (then declare war on romans after a while = no diplomatic benefit here :mischief:)
- I traded everything I could, so MM is stronger in my game than in all others. IMHO it's beneficial for us to have strong trading partners. Rome isn't a good trading partner.


I have two very big work weekends coming up in a row, so I will struggle to get a submission on in time for this week (1000AD) although it's an outside possibility, but will miss the deadline for the following week (1500AD). Please skip me, although I will be able to assess the games after the submission deadline and will be following the thread.

If you can give us a rushed game, armstrong way, we'll be happy to select it!


Should we discuss future strategies?

I am not sure to what extent we should start discussing the game in terms of strategy and tactics from now onwards. Armstrong submitted a game where he indicated where the Heroic Epic city should go, while Pigswill made a passing reference as to who he thought our first target should be.

It doesn't concern me one way or the other to discuss tactics in advance - is it 'more educational' to have the roster discuss strategy before the playing takes place, or is it better for people to make :smoke: moves and then see the (possible) errors in their decisions?

I avoid giving to much "direction", but if we hope to learn something from those games, discussion is needed. It can be afterwards, or some restricted to general directions.
Anyway, we're bound to see some advice going wrong or some contradictory opinions.
In the trade matter, I'm "all time trader", while others, like you cam, are not so happy traders.
It's arguable in both directions, however I'm sure I can do more with the techs than the AIs can = I'm happy to be at a high tech level with AIs at the same high tech level+they research interesting things if you give them the prereqs for them;)


Analysis

I had written a small thesis on game analysis ;) but chopped it out

I welcome further game analysis - particularly in this last round where I thought that there was an 'evenness' in the quality of the submissions. Having said that - I'm at work for most of this week, and can't do an analysis myself!

too bad i missed answering your thesis when i first saw it, I remember I had a lot to say...:mischief:
However, I was one to advocate about the minimal content of a submission, and now I post games in french, without turnlog, without any piece of strategy, ...
Sorry about that. I run the previous round to prevent from worst game + to have a feeling of the game. I didn't take much care, so no turnlog, and not much thoughts + I'm not very comfortable with space race, so I fear my strategy isn't the right one, and don't want to show how noob I am for such a game :lol:

Some general indications of what I thought was important in the previous round :
- good cities, with improved land, infrastructure, and units to defend them.
- techs! priority to economic ones.
- pushing for civics! We're spiritual, switching to OR is free, so is switching to HR (calavente! you have monarchy tech and you didn't switch to HR, why?)

Some lower priorities:
- using religions as much as possible. This includes having your state religion everywhere or playing the diplomacy game with it. (changing state religion is free too, but it's not beneficial to change often = diplomatic bonus doesn't have time to accumulate)
- managing relations. It's important but not game changing, since in the not too distant future, we'll have a lot of enemies IMHO. My strat was to trade as much as possible then crush everyone :lol:
- building wonders : we're not industrious, but i noticed VuDU's pushing towards stone as a side benefit for some later wonders. One wonder I like is sistin chapel, and MM already has theology = probably too late to build, but soon we can capture it:lol:. That's why I didn't give much value to stone, but I may have missed some important use?

edit : i started playing next round, and took notes, then my computer crashed (again!:cry:). I'll try to go for a turnlog with pictures this time.

special dedicace to VuDU :

1) I traded in 125AD with my friends and You could have submitted a much better game with this :
- traded for calendar with romans
- then traded calendar for HBR to cyrus.
You had a city with 3 calendar ressources in the south! You needed this tech!
2) I whipped a catapult in a size 4 forge building city with a barracks, the overflow will go to the forge, the catapult is badly needed for a war against Rome. I could have whipped a spear, which is also badly needed, but cats are just better. The city will grow back to size 3 in the next turn so, almost nothing is lost.
3) I changed tiles arrangement in a city building a market. You need to work the cottages, and the market will still be finished in the first turn.

All this to say you've got an overall good submission but I have the feeling you didn't bother much with details.

Go go next game !!!

pfff, that was a close call.

some comments :

VuDu, your game was not a trash one IMO, maybe only the "less excellent" ?
but one thing I loved in it was : cyrus is hindu !!!! cyrus is a friend !! only game we have this advantage....:thumbsup:
one of the very bad point you have is in not connecting our beloved HE city to the main trade network :nono: you see all this unhealthiness ? poor little citizen that do not want to procreate and so the city stays at 1 pop.
two other little malus minus points were : low tech rate + GL not finished : still at risk to loose it.
otherwise, the 'lack' of military was compensated by 6 cities (even if low pop) + good city placements.

for other peoples...
I will edit this post when I will come back home.. (in 8h) because, if VuDu's is in my mind, other were all equivalent, with boni compensating mali minuses, so I am confusing all games :crazyeye: :shifty:

EDIT : malus/mali (apparently only french)==> minus /minuses

boni compensating mali, so I am confusing all games
Mali's Mansa Musa's country. Better to stick with bonus (bonuses?) and minus (minuses), malus is a french only word, AFAIK;) .

By the way, your game was quite good, calavente. Only this HR thing got me mad:lol:

AFAIK : bonus = comes from latin : plural is boni in french and even in english !!

What is this HR thing ? I'm not sure I remember (sorry):blush:

AFAIK : bonus = comes from latin : plural is boni in french and even in english !!

What is this HR thing ? I'm not sure I remember (sorry):blush:
bonus comes from latin, but is not a real latin word, so it's plural should be bonuses.

The HR thing is you had the monarchy technology and didn't switch to HR.
Being spiritual, you basically lost 1 happiness minimum in every city for no gain (AFAIK).

oh!!!

HR !! I understand what you mean !!

euh : my defense ? :blush:

I never ever used HR in any game!!
my weakness : some civic I never used : they seems unuseful for me !! (I know I'm wrong but I can seem to be able to overcome this)

vassalage / servage / HR / nationalism are some of those.
I know people say they are great !! but .. :(

and here (I don't remember my current gov civic) I think I either : hadn't thought of it / either didn't want to go to anarchy in a race, then forgot about it. or already in rep ? no ! we don't have the mids

EDIT : oups we are spi ? no mids ? my bad !! eek , cal = really bad player :hammer2:
oh, and I'm quite sure about the bonus / boni thing!! (at least in french) (and in english also)