I am a serious player of Sheaim (have been since they became available, though at first they weren't good multiplayer since the OOS error with targeted spells meant multiplayer I had less potential to be a spell-slinger). I say this as an opener because like any faction you will get lovers for that faction in a game. I have been watching each of the updates with zeal because I keep hoping Sheaim are getting the next boost in uniqueness. There are a few things, granted, but I think in general the Sheaim are pretty colorless. For a race waiting for the Apocalypse, they are pretty vanilla. I won't say nay against their current things (Holy smokes, Eater of Dreams!) or even the Cult of the Dragon and it's fringe benefits (a dragon stomping around is mighty impressive) but still I feel like maybe some alterations are in order.

Can I, or any of the other Sheaim lovers out there, expect any updates in the future?

I am a serious player of Sheaim (have been since they became available, though at first they weren't good multiplayer since the OOS error with targeted spells meant multiplayer I had less potential to be a spell-slinger). I say this as an opener because like any faction you will get lovers for that faction in a game. I have been watching each of the updates with zeal because I keep hoping Sheaim are getting the next boost in uniqueness. There are a few things, granted, but I think in general the Sheaim are pretty colorless. For a race waiting for the Apocalypse, they are pretty vanilla. I won't say nay against their current things (Holy smokes, Eater of Dreams!) or even the Cult of the Dragon and it's fringe benefits (a dragon stomping around is mighty impressive) but still I feel like maybe some alterations are in order.

Can I, or any of the other Sheaim lovers out there, expect any updates in the future?

Unfortunatly not any real soon. We are, from a feature perspective, closed at the moment and only involved in polish activites. The only issue that was left for 0.16 was the new naval restructure. And Loki snuck hidden nationality into that because he wanted it for pirate ships. So thats why you are seeing mercenaries and such in 0.16 too.

But the "Fire" phase is all about the end of the world. I gotta believe that the Sheaim are going to get some special features that will allow them to have some extra fun while the world crumbles around them.

I am hoping for something like this too. I was initially attracted to the Sheiam, but since all the Apocalypse type wonders hurt you just as bad as anyone else, take forever to build, and Sheiam doesnt get any bonus that way, I find Amurites to be much more interesting as spellslingers, mainly due to the Cave of Ancestors :)

Heres lookin at Fire!

Sheaim, eh... Random ideas!


Adept -> Sleeper
Strength 1
Does not receive defensive bonuses. (This is mainly to give the 'sleep' option as opposed to 'fortify'.)
Starts with Spell Extension I
Haunting vision: While sleeping, randomly (~2% chance/turn) gains 3 bonus experience while being reduced to half health.


Conjurer -> Dreamer
Strength 3
Does not receive defensive bonuses. (This is mainly to give the 'sleep' option as opposed to 'fortify'.)
Nightmare: While sleeping, randomly (~2% chance/turn) summons a free nightmare unit and gains 3 bonus experience, while being reduced to half health.


Summoner -> Eater of Dreams
(Current stats)
Dreamcatcher. When on the same plot as a sleeping Sleeper or Dreamer, doubles the chance of that sleeper or dreamer having a fleeting vision or a nightmare. Gains the 3 experience instead of the sleeper/dreamer.


Mage -> Nihilist
(Regular Mage stats)
Nihilism: Damaging spells deal +20% damage, but hurt the caster by 25% of his maximum as well. (Fireballs, etc. are summoned with Combat I)


Archmage -> Destroyer of Souls
(Regular Archmage stats)
Greater Nihilism: Damaging spells deal +40% damage, but hurt the caster by 50% of his maximum as well. Can cast an unlimited amount of spells per turn. (Will die from the second casting unless healed in between.) (Fireballs, etc. are summoned with Combat I+II)

Shatter: A spell that kills the caster and a target living unit unless it resists, in which case the target is reduced to ~10% health while the caster still dies. Requires Entropy III and (Spirit III OR Mind III).


Berserker -> Ravager
(Regular Berserker stats)
Relentless Assault: Keeps attacking until all enemies in the attacked plot are dead, or the Ravager dies. These extra attacks do not use movement. -50% strength in all defensive combat.


Immortal -> Black Knight
(Regular Immortal stats, except Immortality)
Hollow: Counts as mindless as far as any in-game effect is concerned. Immune to all damaging or killing spells.

Abyssal Call: Attempts to drag its killer down into the Abyss (or Hell) on death - if it works, they both die. (Just banishes the killer, if a hell map is implemented.) If it fails, the killer is heavily damaged.

Or a simple Archmage UU, that provides a building in cities they are stationed in like guardsmen that provides +25% hammers towards any ritual.

Need some good rituals though. The ones that are in are cool, dont get me wrong, but there should be more than one that does benefit the caster.. there doesnt seem much point to spend all that time building a ritual that is going to level your army as much as everyones elses. Of course they dont have to be of that magnitude..

A couple random ideas off the top of my head-

Utterdark (ripped from Dominions 2 :D ) - Req 3 entropy, 1 death. All other civilizations can only see directly around their units for 5? turns (i.e. explored territory re-covered in fog of war.) During the duration, small chance of barbarian Nightmares spawning near enemy civ cities. Medium build time, building removed after 25 turns to limit spam.

Favorable Winds - Your flying units have double movement for 3 turns. Req 2 Air, quick build time, building removed after 10 turns to limit spam. (needs flying units, and Air mana, but you know..)

Frendly Currents - Your naval units have double movement for 3 turns. Req 2 water, quick build time, building removed after 10 turns to limit spam.

Planar Lock - No one can summon for 6 turns (all summoners get the Casted promotion automatically.) Does not affect Guardian Vines, Call Tiger, or Raise Dead. Req 2 Dimensional, quick build time, building removed after 21 turns to limit spam.

Mana Disruption - 40% chance of any enemy mana nodes getting razed on the next turn. Req 2 Metamagic (if there is metamagic mana), medium build time, building removed after 30-40 turns.

Just random ideas, like I said, for national wonder rituals. Planar lock probably wouldnt fit that, really, but whatever. Obviously not gonna happen soon, but hey, someday, more rituals/expanded ritual system is something I would definately love to see! Here's lookin at you, Fire phase :D

Edit: Another random idea, jsut to throw it out there. To counter the Ritual that causes to sun to heat up, forget the name -

Ice Age - Req 5 Water, long build time, building never disappears unless destroyed - Oceans slowly turn to ice, and land, beginning near coasts, to tundra.

Edit 2: Another random idea - Some kind of "spy" unit that can sneak into an enemy (or maybe even friendly, with hidden nationality) city and destroy a ritual building, or disrupt one in progress.

Actually, along the lines of that ritual casting archmage you mentioned, Nikis, it would be neat if there was a line of promotions that gave a small bonus to ritual making, with Sheiam getting double benefit or something.

Sheaim doesnt need love (ok, flavor-wise they do), what they do need (and probably other civs with summoning trait) is to be balanced. I dont know how much they need to be balanced, maybe by making summons only stay 2 turns with summoning, but something needs to be done. Also mobility for summons is pretty overpowered.

In an MP game vs the Sheaim recently I got totally bombarded with nightmares with 4 movement. They only had combat 1 or maybe no combat promotions at all, but that didnt matter. He had like 30~ nightmares every turn! All with move 4. So even if I moved all my defenders to one city, which had like, after a while, 8-10 Drown, 5 Archers and some warriors. And building one new archer every turn in my capital, moving it took 3 turns to this city, and getting a new warrior every 2-3 turn +one from another city every 5 turn or so. And upgrading drowning a warrior every other turn or so. Still wasnt enough.

Maybe if I would have gone for ring of warding would I have had a chance... maybe. They are still expensive to build if I would have made it there relatively fast.

And all his conjurers had escape, making it even harder to dispose of the source of the problem. Well anyways, I'll leave BCalchet to say something more on the matter.

I said something over in the 'Balance' topic.


(Oh, and I think the largest attacking stack was... 27 nightmares and 7? skeletons. That was after spending two turns summoning nightmares without attacking, but then I didn't use the five spare conjurers I had tucked away since I didn't need them.)

I said something over in the 'Balance' topic.


(Oh, and I think the largest attacking stack was... 27 nightmares and 7? skeletons. That was after spending two turns summoning nightmares without attacking, but then I didn't use the five spare conjurers I had tucked away since I didn't need them.)

I just read that in the balance thread.

Ok it wasnt 30, but it sure felt like it!

Nightmares are summoned by conjurers, yes? Conjureres are tier-3 units. You had Drown and archers, yes? Both of those are tier-2 units. He had seven of these conjurers? Sounds to me like you were outmatched. If he had 7 macemen the result would have been much the same, I think.

pasted into balance thread for lack of relevance to this one

I agree, having to face conjurers with the Drowns show a distinct technological backwardess. Where were your macemen, longbowmen, Stygian guards ?
For that matter, where were your mages with the destroy undead spell ?

Maybe arcane civs could get a production bonus when making the apocalypse rituals (e.g. 50% production bonus).

I agree, having to face conjurers with the Drowns show a distinct technological backwardess. Where were your macemen, longbowmen, Stygian guards ?
For that matter, where were your mages with the destroy undead spell ?

I dont know if I were so technological backward, it was him that was specializing. I had over 3 times his score afterall, and he had one city at size 7, my capital was size 12.

ya, but if he had specialized to get macemen instead he still would have steamrolled through drown

Specialization is the name of the game here, while you may be able to generalize into the first or second tier of techs, you're probably better off specializing in one of the various forms of combat or the arcane or the religious.
Kael's first post. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=171398)

Ah, you focused on a broad, well-balanced development and he went for the kill by racing for military technology superiority. And he caught you without any counter in place.

Plus, to get these conjurers he must have built a bunch of adepts early on and put them in storage somewhere. Long term planning unleashed at just the right moment.

What can I say ? It's not so much that Sheaim is unbalanced, but that he managed to catch you at precisely the right time with precisely the right army. He could have done it by racing for macemen (but finding iron is not guaranteed), or for the right hero (the Baron comes to mind). If you had attacked before he got Summoning, you could probably have defeated him by sheer weight of numbers (adepts suck at combat). Or if you could have survived his attack, you would have outpaced him economically and would easily have defeated him later.

not to mention that he could have rushed him with warriors early on. ive given the summoner method a try, and i'll tell you, i could have been killed easily with no difficulty if anyone declared war on me before i had 4 adepts leveled up a bit. to get the conjurers you really have to live on the hope that no one will attack you until you're ready.

just pay attention, and if someone has a death magick node just rush them, pillage it, and take a big chunk out of them

The problem here is that summoner/death II conjurers defeat any equal-tier melee, archery or disciple units given similar numbers, barring some very high movement speeds and the Courage spell. (Couraged Elohim Monks can likely win, for example.)

While the melee units spend several turns getting to the conjurers, they can retreat and send stack upon stack of nightmares at the advancing enemy, wearing them down and killing several of them before they get close. When they do get close, nightmares with their fear ability stop most attacks against the stack - with equal numbers, there's no way mere macemen are going to crack open a nightmare/conjurer stack. Macemen in hill cities will fare better, perhaps even requiring a dozen or more nightmares to take down a single well-promoted maceman, but it's still impossible to get to the conjurers, and there's no way to prevent large-scale pillaging. (A nightmare stack moves on top of an improvement, and getting it off is almost impossible - the fear promotion strikes again.)

Sure, there are counters - Courage, or mindless units - but those are all on different tech paths from the macemen you're rushing to in this example, unless you're playing as the Luchuirp.

In the end, the main problems with a nightmare-conjuring strategy are:

- Mobility. 4 movement points require recon or cavalry units to match, and allow deep strikes at core cities and improvements.

- Pillaging. Coupled with those movement points and fear, we can pretty much take for granted that nightmares will get to towns/resources, and that they will stay there and pillage successfully unless countered by Courage or mindless units.

- Defense. Large stacks with Fear stop most attacks in their tracks.

- Skeletons. These shorten the early window of vulnerability, but also work great as an offensive weapon since they'll have 3 movement points and can be resummoned by your conjurer-to-be adepts.

My recommended solutions to these are:

- Mobility: Make Spell Extension II require Arcane Lore. (Already done, I believe.)

- Pillaging: No pillaging for Nightmares.

- Defense: Fear removed from Nightmares, replaced by a single first strike.

- Skeletons: Solved by the Spell Extension II fix.

Thoughts?

Fear is so flavoursome for nightmares.

If you had attacked before he got Summoning, you could probably have defeated him by sheer weight of numbers (adepts suck at combat). Or if you could have survived his attack, you would have outpaced him economically and would easily have defeated him later.

The thing is, he was on the other side of the world, pass the raging barbs.

And I dont think rushing for macemen would have helped me much, he would just have pillaged my iron or copper, and there, no more Macemen. Then continue to attack with wave after wave of nightmares on a city. He dont care if they die. So what if I get a promotion? Most of the time I wont have time to promote before he attacks next turn anyways, and there are only a limit of promotions that help against his summons.

Im not saying its impossible to survive such an onslaught, and sure, if I could launch a preemptive strike it wouldnt have been such a problem. And sure, if I had Macemen it would have been less of a problem. But the thing is, It seems MUCH easier to go the summoners path (especially for a summoner), and MUCH harder to survive it, then any other specialization.

For example, a single hero (backed up by the appropriate troops) could stop an invasion by Melee units. And when a melee unit dies, its dead. Its not respawned the next turn.

macemen require iron
death magick requires a death node

this tactic requires Arcane/Summoner Traits to be effective


to do a real test, do Aggressive/Raiders Traited leader with macemen versus Arcane/Summoner Traited leader with conjurers.

though what might help is if Magic Resistant gave +40/50% versus summons (or does it already?)
and is there a +% vs. undead promotion?

it should be tested in multiplayer more i think, the games i've seen it in it was effective, but i recall the summoner getting destroyed by vampires while he was off killing eerr heh, and i remember having ridiculous amounts of monks and confessors and 2 heroes when the conjurers were ready, and being able to produce about 5 more 3 move monks a turn.

I guess I just suck at anything but getting religions quickly in MP.

And Magic Resistant helped against Nightmares, I was adaptive so I changed to that the 3rd time I got to choose, but that was too late. And I couldnt choose vs Undead promotion, if that still exists.

summoning requires the same amount of research as fanaticism, and fanaticism gives 6 strength crusaders with demon slaying 1 and 2 moves if you're Spiritual, plus (they should, but don't) get access to demon slaying 2 (nightmares are Demons)

now, take into account those nightmares can't use your roads, so if your culture is decent then theyre moving 4 squares, while you can move 4 squares in your own lands because 2 moves plus roads, if you get engineering its 6.

he just specialised, which made him weaker earlier and prolly had a poorer economy, he took advantage of his specialization with good timing. if you had founded the order and gotten fanaticism you'd be laughing when he brings his nightmares.


with demon slaying 1 and 2, and magic resistance you'd have 6 strength +140% = over 14 strength against nightmares

it should be tested in multiplayer more i think, the games i've seen it in it was effective, but i recall the summoner getting destroyed by vampires while he was off killing eerr heh,

That was because I pulled all units out of my cities, leaving them undefended - I was about to leave the game, if you remember. If I'd wanted to keep playing, escaping three conjurers home and smashing the calabim wouldn't have been a problem.

splitting things up can be a downfall, and death magick wont make you many friends lol, and escape will only protect your capital

splitting things up can be a downfall, and death magick wont make you many friends lol, and escape will only protect your capital

Escape will let a stack of nightmares be at any tile within 6 from the capital the turn after using it, 14 tiles after two more turns - not counting roads!
How is that only protecting the capital?

As far as splitting up goes, it's not like I can't bring the rest of the conjurers home instantly as well, should things start looking down on either front. (And if something can kill them and their nightmare guards before they can escape, the game is likely lost anyway.)

Death magic diplomacy will only serve to make good civilizations - who hated me in the first place - slightly more hostile.

its a very risky playstyle, requiring a lot of management, and now that assassins have marksmen promotion itll be even riskier.

im not saying you can't effectively manage offense and defense, but its not exactly a passive job, and theres much room for error.

Removing the ability to pillage from nightmares makes sense. They're still undead, though, and there are unique promotions to counter that. You seem to be missing the point, though, that just about every Civ that gets a military boost at some point is going to be very hard to stop upon getting that boost. Luichirp that have used Barnaxus intelligently get units with higher base strength and many combat promotions, so they'll always win in a straight fight. Elohim, once they get monks, are just about impossible to defeat on their territory, allowing them to declare war without having to worry about retalliation. A force of elven swordsmen backed by Gilden Silveric produced by the elves' hammer advantage is probably the most effective early-game rush there is.

More importantly there are counters to all these strategies. Nightmares are vulnerable to anti-undead promotions, anti-magic promotions, and rings of warding. Luichirp units are crippled by collateral damage as they don't heal on their own. The Elohim can be outgunned by foes that apply Scourge promotions to their units, just as the elves can be beat by anti-elven promotions. If you're caught by surprise and a tier lower in military tech, anyone can beat you.

If you're being swarmed by Nightmares, you should strongly consider Way of the Wise... it's what makes Demon Slaying and Undead Slaying available, and as such is a real boon when fighting most any evil civilization. Even if you don't go for the Order (say, if you've founded an earlier religion) it's still worthwhile if you've got a lot of evil to fight. Yes, even if you're evil yourself.

That being said, my favorite counter against summon stacks is fire mages. Don't ask questions, just cast Fireball. Cast it a lot. Cast it from ships in port if need be (gotta love those Arcane Barges!), but be sure to cast it. Their swarms are nothing but free XP for you if they've been toasted properly.

I find Sand Lions preferable to nightmares myself... fear is neat and all but I dont usually use Summoning trait, just gaurd em with normal units, and lions' 5 str beats 4 str any day. :)

Or chaos ravagers if there are no handy plains