Don't mine me! - The hammerless challenge

Can commerce :commerce: beat production :hammers: ?

Background
The idea for this game started in another SG (Independence day) starting soon, where I had the idea to have a commerce only strategy. In Independence day we play on a Terra map, but once we have discovered Astronomy we pack up our units and move to the other side of the world, gifting our cities to others and starting over in the new world. So any improvements built in the old world would be lost anyway. We plan to build a small settlement with cities focused on food and commerce to optimize science and be given away later. I have the feeling commerce focus can be very powerful.

The power of commerce over production
The basic rule is we will not build mines and you should not work any tiles with two or more hammers. Commerce and Food should always have priority over production. Production deficits can be made up through whipping, drafting or buying.

Many higher level games can be won by outproducing the AI. We will show the power of commerce and that games can be won with loads of commerce instead of hammers.

1. Commerce and Food are always priority.
This game will be won by science and cash, so commerce and food always have priority over hammers. If the choice is between a coastal tile with 2F&3C and hill forest with 3H, for your first Workboat, go for coast. Forests should be chopped to boost production and should not be worked if there are commerce tiles available. Exception is that resource tiles which can always be worked.

2. No mines, workshop, lumbermills or watermills.
Exception is that we are allowed to mine resources. Captured cities should have these improvements replaced.

3. No production improvement buildings
That means no factories, no power plants, no iron works, etc. Exception to this rule is forges as it provides happiness and is needed to build the colossus and other wonders. Colossus is commerce focused and a likely objective. Note that forges have a low priority.

4. No production focused Civics
No Police State or Organized Religion. Slavery and Universal suffrage are allowed and logical goals. The pyramids could help a lot in enabling Universal Suffrage early.

5. Leader choice
For Warlords we'll play with Hannibal - Carthage
Financial & Charismatic - Fishing & Mining - Numidian Cavalry - Cothon (replaces Harbor)

6. Victory conditions
All conditions allowed.

7. World Setup
Epic Speed, Monarch. Continents world, standard settings.

Roster
1. Remconius
2. efendi (WL)
3. karr1255 (WL)
4. Asperger (WL)
5. Chrono285 (WL)
6. negyvenketto (Vanilla)
Open
Open

Please signup if you are interested.


:)

Thanks to Cabert, Methos and Caesius for the comments.

I like to play "CIV4 - Warlords" because of the new features. The leader traits are different you now....

We can consider warlords based on people that want to join...

If we do play warlords, the Carthaginians seem to be a likely candidate. They are Financial, Charismatic (more happiness) and have a unique harbor giving an extra trade route, to generate more commerce. :)

lurker comments (can't join, though it seems fun) :
- horses don't give food. They improve production!
- you could add uranium mines to commerce happy tiles
- you should pursue pyramids to allow US as soon as possible (could be a variant rule?)
- forges are happiness buildings as well, and the production bonus applies to whipping/rush$ too

I would like to be in, please play it with vanilla civ4 (I don't have warlords :blush: )
This could be mine first SG. Usually I play noble or prince, I hope won't cause great damage to the game on monarch :)

I would like to join if we would play warlords.

Havent decided yet. I Would like to play warlords, lets see who else wants to join.

I would like to join if we would play warlords.

Sounds fun, I'd like to join. It'd be my first SG, but I just got my first emperor win. I don't have warlords, but I'd like to buy it soon.

We did something a little similar in our CTIV-2: The Money Game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=147951). We emphasized the financial side of the game.

It's not quite the same, but was a lot of fun. I think you guys will really enjoy this variant. I know we enjoyed ours! Good luck!

lurker comments (can't join, though it seems fun) :
- horses don't give food. They improve production!
- you could add uranium mines to commerce happy tiles
- you should pursue pyramids to allow US as soon as possible (could be a variant rule?)
- forges are happiness buildings as well, and the production bonus applies to whipping/rush$ too

I'd say that if you get Pyramids you'd want to go for Representation for the extra science.

I'd say that if you get Pyramids you'd want to go for Representation for the extra science.

I disagree. A specialist such as a merchant or scientist would be giving a potential 6 beakers per turn with Representation. A citizen working a town under Suffrage would be getting 5 (since the leader's financial) potential beakers plus 1 hammer (plus whatever the base tile gives) and you can buy improvements.

Played a test game last night and I am going to ease up on the requirements a little by changing 2 rules.

Rule 1 is now commerce has priority over hammers, instead of only work tiles with 1 hammer. That means you can work plains forests if there are no more commerce tiles around.

Rule 2 Exception is now that resources can always be worked. AI does change your workers to those tiles anyway when city grows so it would be difficult to enforce. This will then be the only way to get some production going.


Also I would like to play this game in Warlords.

I made up my mind, we'll play this game as Hannibal of the carthaginians. That means Warlords!

The only person signing up that indicated not to have Warlords is Negyvenketto. Any chance you can get your hands on a copy?

If not we have 5 people and a 1-2 open slots.

I'll probably kick this game off in a few days.

Let's get this show on the road. I rolled a game and look what came up.
This was my first try!

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0012.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/hanny2.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0014.jpg

Roster
1. Remconius <- Up next
2. efendi <- On Deck
3. karr1255
4. Asperger
5. Chrono285
6. Open

24 hours got it, 48 hours to play. I suggest I will play 40 turns to start, next person 30, third person 20. We will then play 10 turns each.

Variant rules
1. Commerce and Food always have priority
2. No mines, workshop, lumbermills or watermills
3. No production improvement buildings (except forge)
4. No production focused Civics

Here is the save:
139190

Let's here some plans and options!

This will be cottage heaven I reckon!! We could settle on the plains hill SW as we can't mine it anyway.

Now let's hope there is some coast nearby to use our improved harour (Cothon).

I'd settle on the spot since I have a feeling there is or will be a ressource to the north or east. Plus I think this way we get the most flood plains, then again otherwise you could split them up for 2 cities and the hill would give us an extra hammer. Your decision.

As for techs I would start with hunting(we are allowed to use the ivory right?) and go towards pottery obviously. Also settling some coastal cities seems good, financial and the UB is really a good one. Of course depends on the neighbors and how many open borders we get.

The leader really fits this game since charismatic will be great for whipping which we will do a lot of. And I also agree with the number of turns played each round.

Wow! Great start. We'll be:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/15758/dtopen5.jpg
in no time!

I could move E, NW with the settler to check out what is there. If nothing special I settle on the starting spot in turn 2 or on the hill in turn 3.

Research-wise I am thinking Wheel > Pottery > Hunting. Starting a worker immediately so it can start spamming cottages asap.

This is really a very unhealthy place to settle, if we settle on the plainshill 1SW than we get -4 from floodplains...I prefer settle 1 NW, or on plainshill 1N.

This is really a very unhealthy place to settle, if we settle on the plainshill 1SW than we get -4 from floodplains...I prefer settle 1 NW, or on plainshill 1N.

It's not that bad. Being unhealthy means you lose food, but we should have a large surplus from all the FPs. Also health is usually not too hard to come by.

I did the maths on Health at 1SW:
Level= +5 :health: ?
River= +2 :health:
2xForest= +1 :health:
11xFP= -4 :health:
Total= +4 :health:

That means at size 6 we will have:
City tile: 2 :food:
6x Floodplains: 18 :food:
Makes a Total of 20 :food:

We'll need 12 to feed our 6 pop. -2 :health: eats another 2 food, means we'll still have +6 :food: to grow. This surplus will shrink upon further growth if we start working Ivory. But by then we should hopefully have more +:health: resources.

At size 8, with 2xivory and 6xFP we'd look like this:
Worked tiles +22 :food:
Eaten -16 :food:
Unhealthiness -4 :food:
We'd still be at +2 :food: growth. Of course by then we might have chopped the forest. In any case an aquaduct is needed pretty soon.

That does not mean we have to settle there, just that unhealthiness doesnt need to be a major problem.

Sorry for being a bit of a numbers freak...

lurker comment : i can't say for sure what's wrong with your numbers (probably only +4 from level), but i did play a carthage game with loads of cottages on FP yesterday. I was unhealthy at size 3. Not a big deal, it's just that you have to work fp only, until you can grab a few health ressources.
However, later in the game, it was more of a problem.
At size 14 in 1300 AD, i was still unhealthy (-3 food), with granary, grocer, aqueduct, hanging gardens, loads of health ressources. Not a big deal, since i don't have more FP to cottage ;) but still a pain, when you're going to stick at size 14 for 600 years.

Hmm, I guess I should review my numbers when I get home.

My plan will be to move E, NW with the settler to see if I can spot more health resources and big food tiles. Then decide where to settle. Probably wise if could build 3 cities sharing the floodplains between them.

Should we try to go for the pyramids? It would sure help with buying stuff, but difficult without serious production. Ivory gives some production. Maybe if we can find some stone, go for masonry asap and start right away.....

One more question I am uncertain about is what victory we should aim for...?

Space Race will be difficult without good production cities, or can we buy spaceship parts?
For Diplomatic we only need to build one wonder, which will be hard enough. We should then focus on making friends.
For Domination/Conquest, I guess we buy loads of units which means we should be technically advanced and have Universal Suffrage.
Time victory should be possible, but boring.
Cultural victory means getting religions, buying buildings.

I am not sure which victory condition would suite our variant best.

I prefer Diplomatic, we can use a few great engineers to build it.

If we go for diplomatic, I guess we make friends with every one always? Give in to all demand? Or we take over the world and vote for ourselves?

I dont usually play this. Anyone have experience?

BTW I am playing now, report will follow shortly.

It's pretty impossible to play without making enemies, as one side will ask you to stop trading with the other, or will ask you to help them in their war. Agreeing or refusing gives you negative penalties against someone.

If we want to go diplomatic, we should try to form a bloc with 2 or 3 other countries, make them the same religion, always help them.

We can't buy spaceship parts, or hurry them with an engineer :undecide:

I like military personally, and cavalry will only cost 300 a piece to pump out, and we should have such a tech advantage by that point that they'll be up against longbows
:ar15: :run: Bwahahaha.

But we'll see how it pans out.

I'd go with diplomatic or cultural. The culture slider with that many cottages could net us a culture victory around 1700-1800 easily.

4000BC
Settler moved E, NW. Wheat tile discovered :)

Warrior moved NW.

3970BC
Warrior moved NW revealing nothing more. I paused to think.

I saved the game and started a test game to see the effect of FP before settling. Each FP gives -0.4 Health rounded down. 9 is the magic number giving -3 health, whereas 10 gives -4. Our original start had 10 FPs, but 1W only has 9. ;)

Health (size 6)
Level= +2 :health:
River= +2 :health:
4xForest= +2 :health:
wheat= +1 :health
9xFP= -3 :health:
6xpop= -6 :health:
Total= -2 :health:

At size 6 our city would then have:
City tile: 2 F
Wheat 5 F
2x Ivory 2 F
3x Floodplains: 9 F
Total of 18 F
-12 Food is eaten
-2 from unhealthiness

Still leaves +4 F for growth. A granary will give another +1 :health: for wheat. Each additional FP will cover extra food eaten (2) and the unhealthiness (1), seems we can continue to grow.

I made a decision and settled 1W of the original start position.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0015.jpg

3940BC
37 gold from hut Warrior discovers cows

3790BC
Tundra discovered to the North

3760BC
Wolves defeated.
Beaver spotted on ice.

3730BC
Borders expand

3670BC
Buddhism is founded.

3640BC
More wolves beaten while healing.

3610BC
Warrior promoted with woodsman I

3580BC
Agriculture -> Wheel

3520BC
Ocean discovered to the East and Gold mine :)

3490BC
More Gold discovered.

3430BC
Bear beaten by warrior.

3400BC
Hut discovered, it gives a scout.

3370BC
Cows east.

3310BC
Scout gets xp from hut.

3280BC
Saladin arrives, we sign peace.
Scout is promoted with woodsman II.
Cows and wheat are seen to the east.
Worker built in Carthage, warrior started.

3250BC
Worker starts farm on wheat.
Scout sees bananas and ocean to the east.

Excellent we seem to be in the center between the oceans east and west. Will be good for our commerce startegy.

3220BC
Wheel is discovered, Pottery is next.
Marble found to the east.

3190BC
Scout beats lion and is set to heal.

3160BC
Tokugawa shows up.

3100BC
Scout beats another lion while healing.
Hinduism is discovered.

3040BC
More Ivory and bananas found.

3010BC
Farm complete

2980BC
Panther beaten by warrior.

2950BC
Warrior promoted to Woodsman II
Rice and more ivory spotted.
Scout finds clams

2920BC
Warrior1 completed, settler started.

2860BC
Isabelle shows up, founder of buddhism.
Pottery is discovered, Masonry started for Pyramids.
Worker starts to build our first cottage.

2800BC
Scout discovers beaver heaven. :lol:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0020.jpg

Roster
1. Remconius Just played
2. efendi <- Up next (2800BC - 1900BC)
3. karr1255<- On Deck (1900BC - 1300BC)
4. Asperger (1300 BC - 925 BC)
5. Chrono285 (925 BC - 700 BC)

We are looking good, if only we can cut the AI off from our land, we should have a good bit to settle. We would need to build two cities to the SE.

We are building a settler in the capital. Once it's finished I would like to start the Pyramids, which we can build with two Ivory, maybe a forest or two. (8-11 hammers total) Once we get BW we can chop one forest in the city radius, if we want to keep 4 forests for health. Then we can chop a few more outside fat cross and finish off with a whipping. It's a long shot but well worth it if we get it.

Research:
Hunting, BW, .... then what?

Big question is where to settle our second city. If we want to block Saladin, we should send it SE.

I guess it should focus on building up our defenses against Barbarians.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0019.jpg

139278

I'm against building the Pyramids without stone and not being industrious and not allowed using mines. We can use our money to speed up our techpace and be first to liberalism and economics. We are lucky having hammers around in ivory, cows and gold:)

2800BC
Scout discovers beaver heaven. :lol:
Sounds like a strip club. ;)


Anyway. I think after BW maybe writing get a library and run 2 scientists with the food surplus we will have and then an academy for our cottage paradise.
This is in my opinion much better than going for a wonder. We wont have great production and that makes pyramids way too risky I think.

I am pretty sure we can make it to the pyramids, because we'd be starting very early. I went for the pyramids in one of my test games and I made it easily. It costs 675 hammers, you can whip 3 pop (135), chop a few forests (60) leaves 380 shields at 11 hammers per turn. In total it takes about 35 turns.

Question is whether the investment outweighs the costs. In the same time we could build more cities and block off the AI from our part of the world. Build a few libraries and focus on science all the way. We should be able to get to to Universal suffrage fast anyway.

Personally I would go for it, but we can make a team decision not to. Dont forget that losing the race to the Pyramids also means earning 500-600 gold in cash which we can use to run science at 100% for a long time.

lurker comment : you only have 1 spare forest in the fat cross if you don't want to hit health cap at size 3 (!). You can chop outside of the fat cross, but the reward is small.
You'd be better off with troops vs barbs IMHO (but hey, i'm not playing :lol:)

We don't mine so i also think it's against the spirit of the game to begin with such an enormous hammerinvestment. I also don't like throwing everything an one card. (is this a correct english expression?).

We don't have a lot of production so I would invest it in libaries and concentrate on science. Universal Suffrage won't benefit us that much anyway, since gold rushing at this stage is a double edged sword. For maybe 20 gold per turn you could bump the science slider up 30%. And the hammer bonus is worthless so early.

Good points, let's skip wonders and go for a science strategy. That means we aim for techs that increase science, give us great people or free techs.

I PM'ed efendi to pick up the game and post a game plan.

If he doesnt respond in the next hours, karr1255 can pick up and make a plan.

Sorry but I will have to miss this one.
One other hand I was thinking to play with Elizabeth - Fin/Phi - making a lot of commerce and to krank out GP for more and valuable techs.
Sorry again.

So it's my turn then? If so it will have to wait until tomorrow(cest) but I will start it off ASAP.

...I was thinking to play with Elizabeth - Fin/Phi - making a lot of commerce and to krank out GP ....

Indeed she was a good one for this variant..

But fin/phi would have maybe made this too easy. I like one of the new leaders more anyway. Lizzy is so mainstream. :lol:

Roster
1. Remconius Just played (925 BC - 700 BC)
2. karr1255<- Up next (2800BC - 1900BC)
3. Asperger<- On Deck (1900BC - 1300BC)
4. Chrono285 (1300 BC - 925 BC)

Should we take this game on with 4? Or should I post for 1-2 more players?

If we are successful at Monarch. We could up the level and play mainstream Lizzy. :D

Got it and will play later.

Well I can't open the game because you locked the map. So I really can't take part in this unless we reroll. :sad: I'm sorry but I'm probably not the only one who has modded graphics. Locking a SG maybe wasn't the best idea. :lol:

oh no, that's bad .......

I am pretty sure SGOTM is also locked....

Isnt it possible to play without modded graphics for this game?

Let me check the forum...

Let the other players jump in first and raise their opinion but I just cannot undo the modded stuff. Otherwise rerolling wouldn't be so bad, you would just have to replay the opening turns. But I dont force you to do this, it's still mainly my screwup and I'm sorry.

Just didnt take it into account. If nothing is possible, I'll reroll.

..... it's still mainly my screwup and I'm sorry.

you're doing fine lately:lol: ;)

you're doing fine lately:lol: ;)

I'm not the only one who can't play locked games. :lol:

Sent the question to the SGOTM coordinator AlanH and here is his answer:

The option to "Lock Modified Assets" is a Custom Game option during game startup. If you set this option then the game checks the contents of the Assets folder when it starts up and all players have to use *exactly* the same Civ4 assets as the game originator. Graphics and sound assets are exempt, I believe. SGTOMs and GOTMs are all set up this way, and I think most of those players are able to handle it. Your SG friends have probably modified the assets in their core Civ4 Assets folders instead of setting up mods in their Mods folders. This is always dangerous.

I suggest you create a new starting save, ensuring that "Lock Modified Assets" is not enabled.

That is what I thought. If you put mods in your custom assets folders instead of the core folder, you can always still use the standard files. Karr let me know if you can fix it so that your map mods are installed in the custom assets (under My games) folder instead of the core directory where the game is installed.

If not I'll re-roll.

I've only a little graphic mod and i can use the save.

Alright I kind of fixed it. What caused the problem was the removal of clouds through Civscale. I can do without that no big deal. Should I play the turns now and continue as planned?

play, but don't drink to much:lol:

Playing now. But 1 more question. The rules are changed so we can work the ivory now before we work all the floodplains right?

Variant rules
1. Commerce and Food always have priority
2. No mines, workshop, lumbermills or watermills
3. No production improvement buildings (except forge)
4. No production focused Civics

this suggest the opposite, but it would gameplay rather difficult...don't know

Played a test game last night and I am going to ease up on the requirements a little by changing 2 rules.

Rule 1 is now commerce has priority over hammers, instead of only work tiles with 1 hammer. That means you can work plains forests if there are no more commerce tiles around.

Rule 2 Exception is now that resources can always be worked. AI does change your workers to those tiles anyway when city grows so it would be difficult to enforce. This will then be the only way to get some production going.


Also I would like to play this game in Warlords.

But later he posted this. Now I can't continue because I don't want to screw up a variant (again:rolleyes:).

Rule 2 says you can always work resources, so it's yes, you can work the ivory:)

Very happy to hear yo can play. Tried a few re-rolls, but didnt like them. Guess I am already attached to this one.

Go ahead and play your turns. I think the left ivory has three commerce so it can be worked first. Technically we should focus on cottaging floodplains first. Growth and commerce should make the difference over production.

pre turn - I switch research to hunting and build another warrior until the city grows. I want to go for archery and play it safe.

T5 - Warrior is done and I continue the settler. The cottage also completes.

T7 - Hunting in and archery started. And oh so tempting but I don't do it :mischief::

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Hammerless%20challenge/001-toku.jpg

T14 - IBT our warrior kills a barb warrior. Archery in and I switch to BW.

T16 - Our scout dies to a barb warrior.

T18 - Settler done and I start an archer.

T22 - Our 2nd city is found to the SW

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Hammerless%20challenge/002-city.jpg

I have a dotmap in mind which I will attached at the end. It's not perfect but I think we need to squeeze a bit to make the most out of our land. This spot of course also a blocker from Saladin.

T24 - Judaism FIDL. Oh and I forgot to mention Isabella found Buddhism. What a shocker.

T25 - Archer done and I start another one before the city grows next turn.

T26 - IBT our woodsman II warrior defeats a barb archer in the open and earns combat I. BW in and I start mysticism for monuments. And we have a good location for bronze:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Hammerless%20challenge/003-copper.jpg

Carthage will claim it in 10 turns. And I start another worker there now.

T29 - IBT our woodsman II warrior defeats a barb warrior.

T30 - Mysticism in and I start animal husbandry but no beakers invested.


And after that my reign is over. We are #1 in GNP by lead of 7 to the next best. The next player should whip a monument in Utica (dont forget to start it 1 turn before growth).
And here is my first thought on city placement:

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/6043/dotmaphhtx2.th.jpg (http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dotmaphhtx2.jpg)

I'm a squeezer so someone else is free to take a shot at it. ;)

Good turnset :goodjob:

I agree with the dotmap.

After that we can build more cities using:
1- 4xFP and marble, East of capital
2- Clams & FP, lots of coast and river cottages
3- Cows and lots of river cottages
4- Maybe a dummy city to get 4 beavers for trading.... Not sure how we can make this one profitable / useful...

Looking good! Let's see if can continue to be nr 1 in the GNP...

590 - 1900 BC gift Saladin Ivory for good relations, revolt to slavery.

586 - 1780 BC Whip monument in Utica, call my scouting warrior back for defence, a wandering barbarcher is making me nervous..

583 - 1690 BC AH > Writing (horses in northern tundra area).

576 - 1480 BC Writing > Alphabet

574 - 1420 BC Archer beats attacking barbarcher

572 - 1360 BC Open borders with Saladin for good relations, NW of our capital a barbcity has been founded. Send archer to keep an eye on it.

570 - 1300 BC Our capital is building a settler. Maybe whip it when you can. Remember we gift Saladin ivory, you can cancel it when needed. And soon Saladin will have ivory of his own. Cancel open borders with Saladin when he's going to misuse it.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7712/civ4hannibalrichnm5.jpg

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/236/civ4goldrushrx0.jpg

gold (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/63149/Hannibal_the_Rich_BC-1300.CivWarlordsSave)

I prefer next city on this place. We settle towards Saladin and with a whipped monument it closes the door for him. After this one we can settle the backlands.

I think we should found the city between the gold an cows on the east coast now. Then we can just cancel the deals with Saladin if we want to block him off.

And I think we need some more players since Chrono285 hasn't posted since page 1 so maybe 1 or 2 more?

/e: The spot Asperger suggests is maybe even better for now.

1NE of the spot suggested by asperger brings marble in view and 1 more FP. A way to get some production going.

Hey guys, I got it, will read up and play tomorrow.

1NE of the spot suggested by asperger brings marble in view and 1 more FP. A way to get some production going.

These plots i reserved for another city NE of our capital.

But that does not match with the dotmap from Karr does it?

Let's make one dotmap and work from there.

OK, i've made a dotmap that's in fact an addition to Karr's dotmap:

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/9889/dotmaphannibaltherichoc7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I agree with this dotmap but I'd probably build 4/5 before 3. Before we found city 3 we need civil service for some chain irrigation or we can't work the gold mines.

Btw. : How did you make this screenshot without clouds? I always removed them with civscale which I couldn't use on a locked map.

Maybe there's fish east of the gold with wich we could work the gold, we should send a unit to look.

"camera flying enabled" (see left above in the picture) blows the clouds away. You first have to turn it on in the config. map (0 > 1), and in the game use ctrl + alt + f. You can make beautiful pictures with it. I'll give you an example:

1300: Leave everything as is.

1270: Carthage is ready to whip up settler, 2 pop for only 1 unhappiness, woo! I move archer to Utica and warrior to hill to bust some fog. Also hook up our other ivory.

1240: Carthage starts work on a library.

1210: Zzzz.

1180: Warrior has lead in his shoes, is too late to make it to the hill, barb archers spawn near utica. I make a strategic retreat. Hadrumetum is founded, a monument is unnessicary at this time, start work on granary. workers build cottage for Hadrumsomethin instead of hooking up ivory.

1150: Archers approach, they're after our cows! Fortify warrior on jungle hill as a distraction.

1120: Archers take the bait! But they kill the warrior at 2:1 against. Utica's archers take appropriate revenge. I notice a barb city founded up north, they're gonna want our wheat.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/15758/Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG
I need more troops. I bring back the fog busting archers to the south, any barbs spawning there will hopefully go for saladin's newly founded city.

1090: Warriors begin their descent on Carthage. I move archers up to defend the wheat. Carthagians fear for their safety, but not too much. I send our woodsman warrior up to placate them. He'll arive just in time to stop angry citizens.

1060: Zzzz.

1030: Warriors attack archers near Carthage and lose. Archer's at 2.5 Strength, and more barb archers appear from that blasted city. I move archers to hill, where even hurt they'll have a better chance than full health on plains.

1000: Of all the bad luck! Barb archers attack and win, AGAIN at ~33% odds. I rush the barracks in Utica.

985: Hannibal the rich is the poorest civ on the planet :cry:. Isabella offers open borders I accept. Those stupid archers use exp to heal themselves, and move onto our wheat. Grrr. It's another gamble, but I move our warrior up to the hill, so the archers don't target our village next. They'll be 2.6 strength, attacking across a river and up a hill. Please, RNG gods, you owe me. I cancel our ivory "deal" so Carthage isn't unhappy.

970: Our farm buys the farm. I move a worker up to hook up that copper.

955: Some luck! Some of Saladin's archers were in the neighborhood, and thought they'd deal with our scum. Also, we finish alphabet.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/15758/Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG

I get polytheism for writing from Saladin and masonry for the wheel from isabella. I hurry an archer in utica and start a settler in carthage. Workers move to reconnect our wheat. Warrior moves to keep an eye on that annoying village.

940: Utica finishes archer, starts another. Warrior sets up on a forested hill, daring some archers to attack him. He's getting +135% bonus, so he's looking like a 4.7 guy to them.

925: Archers wisely ignore warrior, my turn's over. I happily don't do anything, am feeling unlucky.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/15758/Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG
Our under-staffed empire

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/15758/Hannibal_the_Rich_BC-0925.CivWarlordsSave

Roster
1. Remconius <- Up next (925 BC - 700 BC)
2. karr1255 <- On Deck (700BC - 475BC)
3. Asperger (475BC - 250BC)
4. Chrono285 (250 BC - 25 BC)

Nice turnsets all! :goodjob:

I like the dotmap.

Got it. I'll focus on getting some defense going...

Not the most eventful turnset but I did beat Saladin to the excellent double fish site! :lol:

Preturn
All seems to be in order. I put up some signs to show the dotmap on screen.

910BC-Turn106
Worker starts farming wheat again.

895BC-Turn107
zzz

880BC-Turn108
Archer arrives at Carthage. As he reports to the palace, Hannibal promotes him to City Garrison I. Archer takes up the task of guarding the capital.

865BC-Turn109
Archer built in Utica, new archer started

850BC-Turn110
zzz

835BC-Turn111
I cant wait any longer, Settler is whipped to completion hoping to get double fish site.

820BC-Turn112
Settler completed, library continued
Settler moves south.

805BC-Turn113
Archer spots Saladin's settler. He seems to be heading for the same spot as our settler... ohoh!

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0024.jpg

790BC-Turn114
Copper mine completed, road started.

775BC-Turn115
Settler races to site 2

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0025-1.jpg

760BC-Turn116
Hippo is founded in the nick of time! :D :D
Monument is started to bring fish in view.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0026.jpg

745BC-Turn117
zzz

730BC-Turn118
zzz

715BC-Turn119
zzz

700BC-Turn120
Copper hooked up, let's build a few axemen to deal with barbarians!

DOTMAP:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0027.jpg

By the way, looking at the demographics we are still first in GNP, 46 vs 20 for number 2 ;) Last in production, though. We have 10 vs 20 for the one above us.

Notes for next player:
-We can trade Maths with Saladin for three techs!
-Saladin has sailing so he could come with a settler on a boat.
-The next archer built should go to hadrumetum.
-Let's use Utica to make a few axemen to take/raze barbarian cities.
-We need more workers to develop the lands.

a save is handy:
139589

Got it now and will play later tonight. ;)

/e: If you want a monument in a fresh city I like this approach more:

-Let it build something that it needs (in this case a fishing boat for example)
-One turn before growth switch to the monument
-After growth whip it for 1pop

Save added...

Is your approach faster than starting monument asap.

E.g. the monument has 15 hammers stored when the city grows. Use the whip to finish the monument and the overflow goes to the next build, like a workboat. Production is the same isnt it?

Or am I missing something here?

I don't know if it's faster but I think easier because you don't have to calculate overflow. Also sometimes your religion spreads to the city like 2 turns before growth on its own which makes the monument unnecessary.

That is a good point!

I hate religion spreading in a partial built monument.

pre turn - Make the trade with Saladin. Mathematics for Meditation, Priesthood and Sailing

T1 - Utica finishes archer and starts axeman

T2 - zzz

T3 - Literature in -> Ironworking

T4 - Whip axe in Utica

T5 - Utica starts another axe

T6 - zzz

T7 - zzz

T8 - Switch Hadrumetum to a monument

T9 - Whip the monument in Hadrumetum

T10 - IW in -> Monarchy. Happiness is becoming a problem especially with whipping. Carthage grows and I let it build some axes. I suggest we use Hadrumetum after growth to build some workers and setllers. And the next player should move the archer to Hadrumetum(I forgot that :crazyeye:). Also don't forget to whip the monument in Hippo after growth.


I'm gone from tuesday to saturday. So skip me if my turn comes up again during this time.

Good stuff. Minor point, we planned to take 15 turns each, so you could get it again for the other 5 turns.

Good stuff. Minor point, we planned to take 15 turns each, so you could get it again for the other 5 turns.

Just read first page where you planned 10 turns each:crazyeye: (post #15)

confusing myself, lol. Was undecided for a while, 10 or 15. !5 or 10. Thought I chose 15, lol.

Go ahead and play on.

10 turns is short, but we did research Monarchy, and are now in anarchie to revolt to heraditery rule. Made two workers, two axes and whipped a few buildings. A barbarcher threatened the copperhill, so i put an archer on it. Build more workers and more settlers. I should wait with attacking the barbcity's till we have cats. We could research therefore obstruction now, but also first music to get the great artist. Currency isn't bad either. Here's the save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/63149/Hannibal_the_Rich_BC-0400.CivWarlordsSave)

We could go to 15 turns instead...

We dont need to wait for cats. We could just sacrifice/ risk an axe or two. Especially for the city we plan to keep.

I like 10 turns because there isn't so much change between someones turnes. Where you load the save and it's a different game.

400BC - I take a look around, lookin good! Our people are enjoying their anarchy, we have a huge tech lead, up alphabet on everyone, suckers. Tied for first in score. The only non buddhist on our continent, because none of our cities are religious! C'mon Isabella, what are you doing?

385BC - After fifteen long years, King Hannibal ascends to power. I notice Music is set to research, to get a Great Artist? I'd rather go for Optics and make contact with the other civs first, or try to found a religion. I figure you must have a plan for him, and I keep music researching. I move an axeman up to the barb city to check out its defenses

370BC - Oracle is built in a far away land, and we steal top score! Whoever is building these wonders is on the other continent. I hope we aren't on the backwards continent. Only 3 archers in that city, a little city raider I gives our axemen 60.8% chance of winning. I figure 4 axemen and our starting warrior should guarentee the win. I want to whip the 4th axeman, but Utica is already pretty sore about all the "accidents" :whipped: that happen during recent trainings. I'm used to playing on normal speed, I have to get used to this slower pace. Some food for thought: our only source of iron is well outside any of our planned city boundries:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/15758/0Ironoutofreach.JPG

355BC - Buddhism finally spreads to the great city of Hippo! Yeah! Those fish will be ours all the sooner. I decide to convert now, we'll get good bonuses with everyone on our continent, and I'd rather convert sooner than later, we'll lose less money that way.

340BC - We're back in power, and Stonehenge has been built in the same city as the great wall. Does someone have stone?

325BC - Hippo finishes its workboat and starts construction on... hmm... monastary, lighthouse or library? All fine choices. Oh wait, another workboat! Two fishes > one. I start Carthage on a settler that will found hopefully just after we destroy that barb city. I hurry a library in Hady.

310BC - Hady finishes library, starts barracks. I think Hady will be one of our most productive cities. :hammer:

295BC - Hady's borders expand, and reveal Saladin with a settler in a galley! He's heading to spot 3, I just know it:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/15758/0ohnoyoudont.JPG

I try to turn on grid to see how long it'll take him to get there, but it crashes Warlords? :badcomp: I sadly replay my last turns exactly the same way. Except this time through, Isabella demands pottery in 325BC! I reload again and play through again, but she demands it again! :gripe: Grr! :gripe: That didn't happen the first time through! I relunctantly give in, *!@#. 295 rolls around again, and yep, there's Saladin with his settler. Everything happened on the turn it was supposed to, except for Isabella's demand, Grr.
Anyway, I turn on gridlines. I think we can beat him by half a turn. I go to hurry a settler in Carthage, then realize it's only pop 5. It was pop 6 last time! I forgot that I microed the city on 340BC to bump it up a pop. :hammer2: I go back and do that now, and Isabella doesn't demand anything! Yep, that extra pop point made us too powerful for her to demand tribute. Sorry for the shady playing there. :twitch:

Ok, here we go. I hurry the settler in Carthage. 3 pop points lose their lives. 150,000 -> 21,000. I've killed off 86% of the people to get this guy out on time! :whipped::whipped::whipped: Darn you Saladin!

280BC - Isabella offers us rice for ivory. Hmm, I don't see why not, we have 3 elephants hooked up now. Uh-oh, with the settler in hand, I see a blue circle somewhat closer than our planned city, is Saladin going for that?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/15758/0badbluecircle.JPG

Oh no, I just realized our site 3 can't be founded because it's too close to the barb city. The city has spawned another archer, that's 4 now, one which has Drill 1 promotion. There's no way we could take it in time... I decide to settle a spot 1S of our planned site. we lose 1 gold mine, but it's better than nothing.

265BC - Saladin's settler lands, get off our manifest destiny!!!

250BC - How good is this AI? Saladin doesn't go for the blue spot, instead settles where he lands!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/15758/0noooo.JPG

We would have beat him, arrrgh! [pissed] I dejectedly move my settler towards site 4... sigh. I move a worker to hook up marble. Barb archer peeks out of his city. I don't think I can take another 5 turns, and 250 is such a nice round number so I stop now.

The file.

Well, that settler is off to site 4 right now, but what do we want to do about that iron? It'd take forever before we get it in our boundries, and I'm thinking the rest of the continent is filling up, we might expect to see some more galleys coming up our way.

We need to give those barbs the boot, and get our cities founded!

Good (but dodgy) turnset. :D

Too bad about the site. I guess we need a short war with Saladin ;)

Something else I was thinking. As we are focusing on commerce, should we go for a late religion (Confucianism, Taoism, or Christianity)? Then make a shrine and convert the world to get richer... :devil:

I agree on defeating the Barbarians off out land to get it settled. Maybe we should keep the Eastern Barbarian city. Then we build our city 1N of the iron. And we move site 4 1NW. We need to review the dotmap with the Saladin city and iron.

Good write up, Chrono285, funny to read. I didn't have a plan with the great artist we get from music, but we could use him to culturebomb a city near the iron and this way get the iron immediately.
Other possibility is settle a city 2S of the iron, that means neglecting the babanas but we could use this way the hammers of the iron, but i'm afraid Remconius will say that's against the variant.
We are hammerpoor, so we can't cracking out missionares to become richer, plus imo it's against the spirit of this variant.
I would stay pagan or take the same religion as Saladin cause he must defend us against Isa and Toku.
We don't have to hurry getting those barbcity's, we can settle three other sites first, i would send our settler to the south-west spot near the bananas before Saladin takes it.

Yeah, settling south to north will discourage AIs from settling our land. They're gonna have to pay huge distance penalties if they want our beaver paradise!
Also, a culture bomb will in fact give us 3 expansions... just enough to capture the iron from either sites 5 or 7. :D

Geez, this game is flying along!

I am up again....and I got it.

Let me review the game, put up a new dotmap for discussion. Then I will play tomorrow.

Here is an adjusted dotmap. Dont see how we can make use of the goldmines :( Hence the Question mark.

To get Iron:
-We could build and iron/Clams city and move site 7 up north. This means a razed Barb city of size 4...
-We could build a largely useless Iron/FP city. (Using the marked unused FP on the corner of the river)

-Or new (best?) option (only realized after I took the screenshot). 1N of Iron/FP has more workable tiles, get iron and copper. Could be our best effort or sorriest excuse for a production city. (it would have FP, grass iron, plains hill copper, 2 plains tiles and access to 1 more FP, and 2 grass rivers... only 8 workable tiles.

Comments Welcome!


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0028-1.jpg

Pretty uneventful turnset. In this case 10 turns was short:

1 - Couldnt make up my mind where to settle. So I decided to settle on site 5 first.
2 - worker chops forest.
3 - zzz
4 - zzz
5 - Kerkouane founded on site 5. Granary started.
6 - zzz
7 - Masonry discovered - > currency next for trade route.
8 - Axe trained, Library started to grow Utica.
9 - Music researched. Artist lands in Carthage. Not sure how to use him...
10 - Utica is now 8, I change build to settler first. Carthage builds granary, Monument started to grow back up to full size. Will monument continue to give happiness after Calendar? If not the build should be changed...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0029-1.jpg

Not sure where to build next.
I put some alt sites on the map.

The save:
139748

Will monument continue to give happiness after Calendar? If not the build should be changed...

No, it's obsolete.

Roster
1. Remconius Just played
2. karr1255<- Up next
3. Asperger<- On Deck
4. Chrono285


Iron site could work farmed floodplains and both iron mine and copper mine, and maybe a cottage or two. Could be small unit production city.

I'm gone from tuesday to saturday. So skip me if my turn comes up again during this time.

I think he's gone

OK, i got this one, play tomorrow.

I think he's gone

Very sharp Chrono! We all read it and missed it I guess...:lol:

100 BC Carthago: Great Library (why else did we research literature?)

85 BC Utica: whip library

55 BC Hippo: whip lighthouse, Utica: archer

5 AD Currence > metal casting (we are allowed to build forges)

35 AD Something is happning! Our axe kills a barbarcher while defending

50 AD Hadrumentum: whip settler. Utica: whip settler

A picture of our capital building the GL while not allowed using forest or hill-tiles. Two workers are chopping, a whip will do the final job.
Two settlers are waiting for the next player to settle somewhere. In our capital a great artist is playing the 'bon-vivant'.

Watch out, again a settler from Saladin in a galley..

I'm back and could pick it up now. Maybe play today or tomorrow but I will wait for the word from Chrono or remconius.

Go ahead Karr, pick up if you want to make up your missed turn. Chrono can take the next turn, then me.

50AD - Where does Saladin think he's going? I notice Tokugawa and Saladin have 2gpt to trade, so I trade them fish and wheat respectively.

65AD - Utica finishes settler, starts archer. Settler moves to iron site... I want swordsmen to finally get these barbs outta here! Hady finishes settler, continues barracks... settler moves northward.

80AD - Worker finishes road in tile that suggests chain irrigating to wheat. Is this really necissary? Does irrigation stay if you break the chain? If not, we'd be irrigating through a lot of cottagable tiles when this city will already have a food excess due to wheat/bananas.

95AD - Yikes! Carthage is about to grow to unhappiness... I move an archer from Utica over. Leptis, the iron city, is founded. Starts monument to get that iron in range.

110AD - I move settler to alt. site 4. Saladin's settler galley is somewhere in the frozen north.

125AD - MW -> Compass. I think we should find that other continent. Thapsus is founded and a library started

140AD - Our warrior kills a barb archer.

155AD - our axeman kills a barb archer. Tokugawa is pleased with us :) We offer open borders and he accepts.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/15758/Civ4ScreenShot0019.JPG

170AD - Saladin offers Monotheism and 190 gold for Monarchy... I tell him we'll think about it. Barracks finished in Hady, worker started. Saladin is the only one without monarchy on our continent... might as well get something for it. I make the trade and crank science up to 100%. Hmm... we could get Tokugawa to declare on Isabella for 4 techs... something to think about maybe. Carthage grows to size 10, and is whipped down to size 5. :whipped:

185AD - Tadaa!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/15758/Civ4ScreenShot0020.JPG

Carthage starts a forge. Christianity is founded in Damascus. We are still up alphabet on everyone...

200AD - All done. We're in good shape except for our military. We're dead last, and I'm thinking other civs may start pushing us around.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/15758/Civ4ScreenShot0021.JPG

Here's the save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/15758/Hannibal_the_Rich_AD-0200.CivWarlordsSave)

Whoops, just saw those messages above me, sorry, been playin on and off since 10, and I didn't think to refresh.

80AD - Worker finishes road in tile that suggests chain irrigating to wheat. Is this really necissary? Does irrigation stay if you break the chain? If not, we'd be irrigating through a lot of cottagable tiles when this city will already have a food excess due to wheat/bananas.

Forget the chain irrigation, the city gets enough food already, better cottaging as many as possible!

(hope Karr doesn't play now.....:crazyeye: )

Thank god I refreshed, I was just about to start :lol:. Remconius can play and we just keep the roster. Hopefully I can still start tomorow. ;)

Good going Chrono! Nice job on the Glib and the extra cities. We were lucky that both of you didnt play at the same time. Guess it pays to post a got it ;).

I'll play tonight and try to get it done early.
Then Karr can pick up and play afterwards :)

Plan is:
-Get another settler done to stick our nose in the beavers.
-Destroy the NE barb city. Or should we keep it to get those golds?
-Should we capture the barb city on site 7? Or raze it and build the alt 7?

Capturing or razing? Do what you like.. Maybe there's fish east of the gold, that we could make a city taking fish and the gold..
Toku has wine, cancel the fishdeal and get the wine for it.

Turns 200-350:
Pretty boring so wont give turnlog.

Research:
We completed the Compass and continued to get Machinery and are now on our way to Optics. With optics we can find other opponents and leverage our tech lead.

Cities:
Western barb city captured and kept (in 305) we lost one axe. It has some overlap, but didnt feel like waiting for another settler. We can keep the other barb city, it's not very good... but should bring both gold mines in reach. We can use the settler to found beaver town. Not sure where Saladin went with his settler.

Builds
Whipped a few monuments to grow borders. Set Carthage to have 2 scientists as it was growing out of happiness limits (unhappy citizen will be happy in 3 turns when whip effect goes). Once we have all cities up we could start a golden age with the artist, or use the great scientist for an academy.

Trades:
Traded some techs that others had for gold. This way I could upgrade the warrior to axemen.

Status
GNP is 99, number 2 has 56 :lol: In total we have 150 science and 28 gold.

The save:
139918

Don't forget the national epic..in capital?

Got the save and will play right now. ;)

Wow, good job getting that city without many casualties! Hopefully that other barb city stays at size 2 for long enough for us to get it. IMO, we should use the first GS for an academy, then maybe the next for a golden age.

T2 - Monument whipped in Ainu

T3 - Great scientist born and I build an academy in Carthage

T4 - Sell alphabet and monotheism around for a total of 160 gold. We go up to friendly with Saladin and Izzy. :)

T5 - Whip forge in Carthage

T6 - Now start national epic in Carthage. Whip cothon(UB) in Hippo.

T7 - Optics done and I start Code of Laws(3turns). Start a caravel in Hippo.

T9 - Code of Laws done and Civil Service started. Bureaucracy will push us ahead sooo far.

T10 - zzz

Our settler is on the way to Beaver City. I would whip the national epic in Carthage asap and then slowly let it grow while managing scientists and letting the unhappiness fade away. We could also use calendar soonish. Techwise our lead is enormous and becomes bigger every turn.

And the demographics:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/8081/civ4screenshot0000jg4.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0000jg4.jpg)

0 500 AD (460 turns left) Send an axe to NE, and he discovers the disappeared settler of Saladin:

http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/9673/ssettlerzz7.jpg

We are short of workers, build one in Leptus. We don't have an east-coast city ....:cry:

2 Hippo: caravel > caravel, caravel on exploring mission. Ainu: whip workboat

3 Carthago: whip National Epic. Hadrametum: whip axe

4 Barbs are annoying, two threaten both cow and wheat

5 Axe dies to barbarcher, another barbarcher threatens Ainu (NW). Leptis: whip worker. Hippo: whip another caravel. Kerkouane: whip lighthouse. Oh man i love all those whipping in this game ....:)

6 Get pissed off of those barbarchers with their strange unpredictable manouevres. Found Furscity. Now i see we are giving fish away to Toku for only 2gold/turn, while he asks 32gold/turn for one of his resources.....Cancel this deal and do the following deal with him:

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/3170/tokutreatok8.jpg

7 Civil Service > Anarchy!!! > Philosophy

9 Finally get rid of two annoying barbarchers. Utica: whip aquaduct. Get calendar + 160 gold from Toku for compass.

10 650 AD (450 turns left) Finally we met someone: Alexander of the Greeks:

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2831/alexdz2.jpg

We open the borders with him. Maybe some day we should close them again when going for the UN.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8302/civ4screenshot0000mn3.jpg

explore! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/63149/Hannibal_the_Rich_AD-0650.CivWarlordsSave)

Cool! Nice to have Alex on somebody elses doorstep ;) And good to see he is behind us in score. The aggressive isnt much of a techno techno-nerd anyway. Let's see who leads the dance on the other continent.

Got it, playing now

650AD - All right, I'm excited about these next few turns.

665AD - We make contact with Churchill of the English. They're Confucists, and still in base civics. They don't even have meditation! :lol: We make contact with Washington, Hindus. They have a 20pt score advantage over us. England and America were snatching up all the early wonders. Isabella is sending a distrubing amount of forces through our territory.

680AD - Uh oh, I figured it out. Isabella is sending a total of 2 Swordsmen, 1 Axeman, 3 Archers and a Settler so she can have that barb city spot! They'll be at the gates in roughly 7 turns. We could either gamble that the city will grow before then, or send our own settler to settle on the ruins. I hurry a settler in Carthage.

695AD - We're going to make it in plenty of time

710AD - Zzzz :sleep:

725AD - We charge the city! We lose 2 axemen, but sack it good. Surprisingly, even though it was only size 1, we get to keep it.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/15758/Civ4ScreenShot0022.JPG
Ehh... I guess we have an extra settler now? :dunno:

740AD - We discovere philosophy and Taoism is founded in the great city of Furcity! I take paper next. Our free missionary heads towards Carthage. I consider changing to Pacifism. We have 16 military units, but will be saved 5gpt for switching... that's 11gpt for another 9GPP in Carthage. I go ahead and switch.

755AD - We emerge from anarchy.

770AD - A great scientist gives us a golden age!

785AD - Zzzz. :sleep:

800AD - Saladin is sending a settler through our territory, to what, I have no clue. And Yikes!! Barb swordsmen appear from the northern wastes. I move our starting warrior/axeman to confront them.

We've nearly circumnavigated the globe!
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/15758/Civ4ScreenShot0023.JPG

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/15758/Hannibal_the_Rich_AD-0800.CivWarlordsSave

........725AD - We charge the city! We lose 2 axemen, but sack it good. Surprisingly, even though it was only size 1, we get to keep it.

Has it culture? Otherwise it would have been detroyed????

Well, it didn't have enough culture to expand its borders, and it didn't have any buildings after the raid... and it definitely was at pop 1 when I took it. Hey, maybe we've discovered a new reason cities aren't automatically razed!

Strange, but why did you attack that city anyhow? Isa wasn't near, was she?

If a city goes to pop 2 and is then whipped down to pop1 it doesn't autoraze; also if it had 10 culture (20%defence) it doesn't autoraze.

That make sense, the city has there been for centuries, always working a plainforest tile. Everytime it reaches pop 2 it must have been whipped.

Isa wasn't near, yet, but she would've been in 4 or so turns. At least, that's what I guessed she was doing.

Got the save.

Will play later today or tonight.

Plans changed and I didnt get round to it yesterday.

Will play tonight for sure!

Playing now, but game crashed :(

Will take my son to bed then continue from the autosave ...

Frustrating!

I seem to have a Churchill bug. Can't contact and talk to him.... everytime it crashes. :( I tried to solve the bug for a while, but didnt feel like uninstalling game and graphics drivers etc... So I decided to continue without talking to Churchy. Maybe the next person can sign OB with him.

Anyway here is Hannibal again, on his way to gold and glory.

PT: Changed some pop to max effect of GA.

T1
Move ships around. Kill barbsword.

T2
Paper comes in -> Printing Press next.
Axe runs into new Barbsword.
Trade HBR+World map for compass with Isabelle.

T3
Axe loses from sword (how can that happen it was fully healed?)
We circumnavigate the globe! +1 ship movement.

T4
Granary built in thopsus, worker next.
Library whipped in Kerkouane

T5
Alexander wants Compass, I decide give it to his backward civ in the hope to make friends and get his map :)
Library complete, Cothon next in Kerkouane.

T6
Sailing, sailing...

T7
Oh what fun it is to sail...

T8
End of GA.
Whip granary in Utica, Market in Hadremetum, forge in Hippo.

T9
Utica continues with market, Hadre with Mace and Hippo starts colossus.

T10
The end... Hope I can solve this problem.. any ideas?

Hannibal the rich just got richer:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0045-1.jpg

The save:
140089

Wow! What a gold lead! So, what kind of victory should we start aiming for?

I thought we set ourself for UN? (other things need to much hanmmers)

Who's next???

Once we get bigger, we could change to Universal Suffrage and buy military units for military campaign.... Maybe we can rush to tanks and have a small army of very advanced units....

I think we have to do more sucking up to get UN victory. Churchy wont even talk to me :(

I can talk with him:) , but he won't open borders. I'm not so good in diplomaty, but to get UN you can't be nice to everybody, otherwise some go complaining you've been trading with their worst enemy's. But it's important that we all agree we go now for UN, don't we???

And, who's next? me or karr?

We do have excellent relations with all the civs on our island... and the other island is a bunch of different religions. Diplo should be locked up. How much culture could we possibly make with our sliders? Enough to push any of our cities over 50k?

I think karr's next?

Got it and will play tomorrow.

Victory conditions:

I think we should take a decision to focus our efforts. Here is the rationale for each one:

1. Diplomatic
Agruably the easiest as it only involves building the UN and befriending the AI. That will also be the tricky part as only 50% of the world is with us and we dont know who they will vote for. If we can convert/befriend 1-2 of the AI on the other continent we should be able to achieve this. If not we will have to wage war on the other continent to increase our share of the world.

2. Cultural
This is the most peaceful as it includes purely internal focus to get three legendary culture cities. We should choose 3 high commerce cities to max effect of the culture slider. Building some +50% religious building, the hermitage and a great artist factory will sure help to this end.

3. Space Race
This is the typical victory condition for a very advanced civilisation. However without many hammers, building parts will take long. We would need to start very early and have great engineers ready for this. To start early we need a great tech lead, which should be doable with our commerce. We should see if we can set up a great engineer factory. If AI starts to build parts we need a "peacekeeping" force to avoid this.

4. Domination
For our civilisation the way to get a military advantage would be with very advanced units and Universal Suffrage to purchase military units. We should not start attacking too early, but wait until we have US and units that are preferably better then our opponents.

In several scenario's we need to wage war this is the way I see this:
1. Several cities start building a unit. Meanwhile we have a large positive gpt.
2. A few turns later (to avoid rush penalty of unstarted orders) we complete the units with cash.
3. If we can optimize the amount we of gold we make we could have 2 or 3 units being produced every couple of turns.

Each Victory has pros and cons.
-Cultural is peaceful but not really in line with commerce beating production. Although it would be interesting to see the power of high commerce in a cultural game.
-Diplomatic might not be possible peacefully, and could possible involve military.
-Space Race is only viable if we have a large tech lead. It would be interesting to see how far we could extend our lead. Our lack in production without rushing options could make this impossible without warfare.

-Domination is a real test for commerce versus production. We all know that we can outproduce the AI and send more units to beat them. But can commerce do this as well? We have more commerce for more science and better units. We have more gold complete units and compensate our lack of hammers.

Please let me know your preference and reasons for choosing one and not the others.

lurker comment : about victory, if you want to show commerce>production, you need to go for domination. Buying units is really doable, while buying space parts isn't.
If you choose to go for the UN, it could be good to try (hard!) to get a GE to help building it.

Space race: You can't rush projects iirc, and i found it against the spirit of this game cause of the enormous amount of hammers you need for it.

Domination: going straight for tanks and at once conquer our continent, sounds like fun & in the spirit of the game: commerce to get a techadvance, food to be able to whip a lot.

Diplomatic: maybe very easy but i've never done it (except once when my own votes were enough...). An engineer would help here.

Cultural: just as space i don't think it's in the spirit of the game.

My choice: 1/2 Dom. & Dip. , 3/4 Space & Cult.

I accidently deleted my repot after turn 4 and had to start over. I hope I didn't forget anything but nothing important happened anyway.


pre turn - I whip a lighthouse somewhere and cancel our only clams to Toku for spices. We need health more than happiness especially with Hereditary Rule.

T2 - Washington calls:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Hammerless%20challenge/wash1000ad.jpg

I decline of course since Alex is our only allie over there.

T4 - Printing Press in and I start Education. A great scientist is born in Carthage and I let him idle there until the use is discussed. Lightbulbing would have only reduced Education by 7 turns which I think is a waste with our lead. Speaking of which look at the demographics after the bonus from Printing Press:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Hammerless%20challenge/demos.jpg

:cool:

T7 - I trade Isabella Music for Theology.

T10 - Some whipping.


I think we should use the scientist either for an academy in our 2nd best commerce city or wait what he can research after Education.
Diplomatic still looks like a good victory option even more so if we can get Alex on our side maybe by declaring on Washington. But that might not even be necessary just a thought.

0. 1100-AD (420 turns left)

The downside of successiongames: i just don't agree with what other people are doing with the empire. I choose more for granary's and forges. But we have eight workers, that's nice.
You only have to ask....and get spices from Isa.

1. Whip cotton in Kerkouane. Academie in Hadrumetum. Whip aquaduct in Cathage.

@Karr: please don't put workers, caravels etc. on a go to. That's annoying to the next player.

4. Whip Colossus in Hippo. Sell meditation to Churchill for 150,-. Sell Music and Machinery to Alex for Feudalism, Construction and 130,-. Ask and get 200,- from Toku. Toku is such a nice guy, you know!

6. Axe kills barbsword

10. 1160-AD (410 turs left)

Liberalism > Nationalism for free > Constitution ( > Democracy for Universal suffrage). Get 110,- from Saladin (and the guy is already in such bad shape).


what are we aiming for? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/63149/Hannibal_the_Rich_AD-1160.CivWarlordsSave)

Got it. Will play tomorrow most likely.

But we still don't know what Victory we are aiming for!!!





.

Chrono please give us your view and I will decide on victory condition!

We could probably delay Liberalism and get a more expensive tech with it like Democracy. Just research it until 1 turn is left and check how far the AI is.

I simply don't believe we could get a space race victory, projects being what they are.
I like the idea of tearing through the countryside with advanced technology.
Diplomatic victory would be the easiest if we compete against someone on the other continent. If not, we may have to bust some heads.
I don't know very much about cultural victory, if we could even get enough culture without cathedrals.

All in all, I'd vote for conquest/dom victory, since I don't think getting a diplo victory without using hammers is all that different from a diplo victory using hammers.

That's it. 1 Vote for diplo, 1 for Domination and 1 undecided between the two. My vote also goes to Domination....which means we have a winner:

We are going for Domination!

Let's make a plan to achieve this.

A few thoughts:
-US seems logical to purchase units. So we need Democracy
-Liberalism is good for free speech.
-We should increase gold with banks, markets, etc.
-Which units are our first goal to start attacking with?

First of all I think we should stop trading techs. With such a GNP lead we gain very little but boost the AIs.

I already suggested taking Democracy with Liberalism and with this goal in mind it's the best option and should be doable. Worst case scenario would be, that we have to finish Liberalism when we're halfway through Constitution but then we could still grab Mil. Trad..

My vote for unit choice goes to cavalry because of raw power and speed. We should build some throwaway cats now, we don't need to buy those. And our first target should be the Buddhist holy city.

I was probably not clear in my post about my turnset, but in the last turn we already discovered Liberalism and choose constitution as free tech. I'm sorry, i should have waited.

EDIT: sorry, chose Nationalism of course

No cats imo, at least we should use trebs (you can't upgrade cats to trebs).

lurker comment : constitution in 1160 AD is quite good! :goodjob:

Trebs work too although they're a little bit of overkill. Cavalry vs longbows is such a slaughter anyway. :D

War with such a tech lead should be very easy. My thoughts are: capture the buddhist shrine -> conquer our continent completely and maybe start something cross continent if necessary.
Marines could work here. We would probably be up against grenadiers so we could easily sweep every single coastal city very quickly.

We need overkill cause we must be secure to lose as few as possible, considering our lack of hammers.

Perhaps we could have a small force of highly advanced and promoted units tearing up the cities. We then only need to supply defenders to stay in the cities after we capture them.

Would be a cool war! :cool:

We need:

- Constitution & Democracy for Universal suffrage,
- Gunpowder & Military tradition for cavalry
- Guilds and Banking for banks
- Engineering for trebs and +1movement

Capturing cities should give us more gold than it will cost to replace lost units. Cavalry vs longbows and maces is just a cakewalk.

I guess now you want research GP and MT and then los!

1160AD - I do a little maintaince. I switch some granaries back to libraries. Libraries provide the cheapest culture right now, and we want to expand our borders to get some extra resources for trade. I also don't agree with forges... +25% hammers is useless when only 2 cities have more than 3 hammers. Forges are only good for the happiness they provide. We only have 8 towns, so it's not worth switching to free speech. I cancel our deal to Saladin, 2gpt for wheat, and then sign him back up for 4gpt. Bwahaha. :lol:

1166AD - We get a great scientist... I move him to Hady and build an academy. Umm... why were these guys building a farm here?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/15758/Civ4ScreenShot0024.JPG

I guess maybe they were chaining up to Mycenian? I continue the chain.

1172AD - I realize Hady already has an academy. I sheepishly move the scientist over towards Utica instead.

1178AD - Nuthin happens.

1184AD - Nuthin happens a second time.

1190AD - Zzzz

1196AD - Zzzz

1202AD - Snore

1208AD - Wow... nothing, maybe I should start reporting worker actions again.

1214AD - Yay! We get constitution->democracy

1220AD - Wow, if I had known these turns would take so little effort, I could've played yesterday. Total play time, 30mins. Anway, here's the save:

This is the charm of succession games, the first turn takes most time cause you make other choices than the player before...:
- I did build granary's in stead of libraries cause imo we don't need a culture-expansion as soon as possible: we have resources enough, so my priority was quick grow = granaries, after that you can whip the library and quickly get your citizens back;
- Forges: you forget that if you whip (and we do a lot of whipping in almost every city), you get extra hammers from a forge;
- The farming in the picture was indead meant for chaining to Mycenian, their only food sources are two grasslands, no doubt they should get irrigated.

After reading that about forges I had to start a game and test it. Wow, forges and factories do affect whipping production, and chopping production too. Never knew that!

On granaries or libraries first: if you only work food tiles as we do, you better start with a granary, cause if you start with a library, you have to wait till you have 6 citizens before you can whip it, and a granary only needs 4 citizens to whip, and after the whipping it grows twice as fast so it will get to 6 almost at the same time as a city that had started with a library iic.

I can see the merit in that, but with 1 border expansion, we bring into play 4 additional resources to trade away. The other civs have around 20gpt and silver to trade us. Those northern cities will never become commercial or growth powerhouses, their main benefit is getting those resources. Thus, I believe the additional turns we'd be getting gpt and silver by going lib->gran would outweigh the additional pop we'd get from going gran->lib.

I think each way has it's benefits, and it just comes down to preference and play style.

OK, but above i described that if you do gran > lib, you will only a few turns later get your lib, it's almost a free granary!

got it!

let's see...

I dont agree with the second farm of Soldierscity. One FP farm is enough to work both mines... Two plains cottage would be fine.
Mycenian needs a couple of farms to work the gold.

Little experiment with worldbuilder: city with 6 foodplains, only working these (food +3).
Granary > Library took exactly 3 turns longer than only a Library !!!
This shows imo the power of the granary!

Mycenian needs a couple of farms to work the gold.

i concur with that. EDIT: and with the other option.

Maybe, but these cities aren't exactly 6 floodplain cities! In fact, 1 of them has exactly 1 grassland in its borders, the other has 2. There'd be many, many more turns than 3 between granary and library.

It's the overall idea..

PT:
Whip forge in kerkouane, and thapsus, switch and whip granary for furscity. Whip uni in carthage,

1226AD:
Alex wants war with Americans, I start phony war :lol:
Kerkouane starts uni, Mycenea starts granary.

1232AD:
Budist monastery in Carthage complete, Taoist monastery started.

1256AD:
Taoist monastery done Carthage now has 224 science. :D Taj mahal started. To this end I cancel the marble deal.
Trade copper to Isabelle for 5gpt+spices.

1274AD:
Democracy comes in, Drama next (1 turn :))

1280AD:
Drama completed, MT next.

I didnt switch civics yet, we could go for US, Free Speech and Emancipation.

Our GNP is now 340 gold vs 127 of the number 2 :cool:


The save:
140256

Got it - will play tomorrow.

PT - Switch research to Gunpowder first.

T1 - Why the hell do we have so many single workers? It's much more efficent to pair them and it's easier too.

T4 - Gunpowder in now going for Military Tradition(6 turns). But first I do this 3 turn civic change:

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/1805/asdsdfve8.jpg

Before I switched I whipped a lot of stuff so we're ready for some warring soon.

T6 - Washington wants peace for our Theology :lol:

T7 - Anarchy over and our GNP actually went down after adopting free speech.

T8 - Fighting some unhappiness problems.

T9 - Exchange world maps with Alex.


For happiness we need to spread Christianity and Taoism around a little, I didn't have time for that. The next player should be able to start the war(note: we don't have engineering).

Didn't see the save but i wonder why we give up slavery. It's our only method to get hammers...???

Emancipation could have waited but the growth bonus and crippling of the AIs is worth it. US gets us hammers now in 2 ways and when we get rifling we could go for nationhood too.

Nationhood? But you just went for Free speech?? We aren't spiritual, aren't we?

I can understand the civics:
US - To buy stuff and get more hammers (for towns)
FS - negative effect, until we have more towns than bureacracy effect. Then it will be better.
Eman - good for cottage growth and AI penalty.
FR - good for science.
Dont like moving to nationhood.

To maximize the use of our civilisation we should lower tech rate to 70 or better 60%. This gives still 473 beakers and +86 gpt. Should help rushing without unhappiness penalty.

OK, i just wonder how we can limit our city's with all their food now we can't whip anymore.

Nationhood was maybe for the future, after Rifling is in. But shouldn't be necessary by then and I know few players love it as much as I do.

And the city growth should be made possible by many newly conquered ressources. ;)

Finally we have to put a lot of specialists to work, but than Representation is better....OK it's complicated.

That's true but before that we need to buy the units so universal suffrage is a must or there can't be war.

We will have to switch some civics around later anyway. This misery shows you how nice spiritual is. :lol:

This is why i love the spiritual trait!

Got it! Play tomorrow.

@Remconius, i would find it convenience as you, as our leader of the pack, now and then make a list of the sequence..:)

you mean play sequence:

Roster:
Remconius
Karr
Asperger <-- up now
Chrono <--on deck

0 1340AD Hmmmm...mmm ...hhmm ..we're supposed to go to war soon, but we don't have an army at all, only a few city's have barracks:groucho: , we hardly have any hammers, nor slavery or nationhood:groucho: , our capital is building a gigantic Mausoleum:groucho: , probably for the coming war victims, there are of angry citizens which can't be whipped away:groucho: ,.....oh...oh...oh:crazyeye:

1 Beg 150 gold from Alex

2 Great scientist, send him to Kerkouane

OK, maybe some of my fellow gamers will get mad at me, but i go back to slavery, don't know how to handle this empire without it. When we go to war we will need it anyway

> anarchie!!!

3 Still can't whip the Tah Mahal, going to give the capital first a temple to get rid of the angry citizen.
Whip universities in Utica, Hadrametum and Hippo.

4 Give Washington 60 gold to get peace. Military Tradition comes in, and i get engineering from Isa for drama and philosophy.
Science > 0%

5 Ask 120 gold from Saladin to finance his coming destruction. Open borders with Churchill who's better with Alex than with Wash. Whip a forge somewhere.

6 Toku asks for defensive pact. Refuse.Whip temple in capital to get rid of the last angry citizen.

7 - 9 Rush and whip some military things.

10 1400AD Toku, 4 turns before willing to sign a defensive pact, now closing our borders...Next turn we will have 5 cavalery plus 2 trebs, we need more trebs and cav's before we can attack.

@Chrono: beware Hadrametum has both a cav. and a treb in it's queue that both are already finished..

rushrush (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/63149/Hannibal_the_Rich_AD-1400.CivWarlordsSave)

Got it... will start playing now

Got distracted... but will be playing sometime today

Hmm, Emancipation vs Slavery.

As we are commerce driven having lots of towns will benefit us. Hence Emancipation will help growth of all our cottages grow. That means more commerce, more gold for rushing units. In that case we dont need slavery. Slavery even lowers commerce temporarlily... hmmm...

Of course having a second rush option, Slavery, is good to help our hammerless society build an army. And the point about keeping cities smaller is very true. Then again, angry citizens arent so bad as long as we have a food surplus, which we have or the city would not grow. Specialists are another way to contain population.

Growing cottages would be good in this phase of the game. More and more money.

What I dont like is everyone playing with their own civics. Too much anarchy. Lets agree to what we will use before making these changes.

I think as soon as we have some new territory and can grow our cities bigger, Emancipation is a must. It helps grow the new cottages and that's really important. And with the newly aquired ressources we can grow happily.

Without slavery our city's will get unhappy very fast. When i took the game over, there were already three angry ones. Besides we are preparing for war, that means whipping captured city's, and soon extra angry citizens because we are warring. And i hate to play with those angry ones, eating food and doing nothing.

Well in the war just use the culture slider. After we conquer some ressources it means: Bigger cities with more developed cottages. And that sounds like a winner for me. Especially the new cities will benefit big time from it.

Ok, I still haven't played. I'm too bogged down with RL right now, so I'll take a pass this turn. Take it away, remconius.

OK, i agree if we go back to emancipation. It means another playstile for me, but that's the charme of sg-games and i'll certainly learn something from it.:)

I realize we have a bit of an army built, when do we want to start war?

Asap? Or build more force and take Saladin in one fell swoop?

Whatever you like..but i prefer take him in one.

PT:
Micromanage to get a little more commerce and change a few builds to stables, to get veteran Cavalry. Set science to 30% to have loads of commerce and still get techs every 5-6 turns (very powerful!)

Rushed stables, cavalry and started market places.
I think we should continue to focus on building commerce multiplier buildings like banks, grocers. If we have a few cities building cavalry, we can rush them every few turns. There is little point in having 5 cities build cavalry in 25 turns if we can only rush 1 every turn. Unless they have nothing better to build.

1442AD:
Guilds comes in, banking next.
Taj Mahal rushed for 1026 gold. Power!

1448AD:
GA starts!

1460AD:
Banking on next turn. Let the multiplier loose! We can almost double our income with guilds, market and banks.


I did some reconaissance:
Damascus has 2 Longbows, pike and Sword. Medina has 2LB, 2Mace, pike, swords and 2 axes.
Kufah has longbow and pike.
Basra has mace, 2swors and spear (and settler/galley)
We should almost have enough to strike.

The save:
140459

Instead of going to war soon, we could spend 10-15 turns getting banking, economics and the corporation at 30% science meanwhile rushing all money making buildings instead of units.

Spend money to make money, is in line with the variant. ;) By the time we have that we have +100% cash!

Then we can rush build 2 cavalry per turn and roll up Saladin in no time...

Good turns, i still forget those new stable's..:wallbash:

Got it and will play later.

PT - Changed the infrastructure building to cavalry and prepared everything for war. The sooner the better. Also got 100 gold from Alex.

T1 - Banking done go for Economics (7).

T3 - Bought some units

T6 - Bump the science slider up to get Economics next turn

T7 - Economics in and research set to Chemistry. I revolt to Free Market(our GA was just over). The Merchant is on his way to a caravel and a trade mission. Washington starts a golden age.

T8 - Churchill wants Printing Press, I decline. Saladin has Chemistry :sad:. Our defense isn't too good but I delcare war on Saladin before he upgrades everything.

WAR:

- Kill a grenadier in the open with cavalry and 1 defender in Basra

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Hammerless%20challenge/war01.jpg

T9:

Basra under attack:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Hammerless%20challenge/war02.jpg

That was the last defender. I raze the city since it wasn't worth it even for the 3 extra tiles for domination.


- Damascus just now had a border pop and now has 100% def instead of 60%...
- Bombard Damascus down to 21%

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Hammerless%20challenge/war03.jpg

I killed the top longbow with a cavalry, now I wait for the next turn to suicide 1 catapult. Great thing with Universal Suffrage is that we can produce these in 2 turns even with working only cottages and maybe 1 Ivory.


T10:

Minor counterattack from Saladin:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Hammerless%20challenge/war04.jpg

WW starts kicking in so culture slider goes up to 10%. Also the merchant goes into the caravel and onto a journey to Athens.

Back on the front:

- Damascus gets bombarded to 0% defense
- I suicide the catapult
- Cavalry loses to pike at 89% win and 3.x% retreat odds :sad:

And after some more fighting without losses:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/karr1255/Hammerless%20challenge/war05.jpg


And that was it for me. I took the city with a Trebuchet so it can be upgraded with accuracy now since we don't have that many siege units. The next player can combine the stack and push forward. I suggest killing Saladin off completely and keeping the 3 big cities and razing the 2 he squeezed in. The merchant is on its way towards the other continent. Science is runng at 40% and culture and 10% at the moment. Oh and Isabella also has chemistry now.

OK, soungs fine, Got it, but Karr: why all that food and money bags in the pictures? 5 gold in the sea?? Don't understand it..

Financial+Colossus+Golden Age=5 commerce

Golden age is over now though and we need Astronomy soon.

1520AD I put the science-slider on 0%, to be able to rush a few grocers, banks and theatres in important city's. the question is: to pillage or not to pillage? In my second turn i capture Kufah, i keep it cause it can make a lot of money for us allthough it's location is not ideal.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/145/kufahtb0.jpg

During my turns WW crawls slowly up. In my fourth turn the battle of Medina: the first treb, without a real chance, beats! the grenadier and gains 6xp at once. The second dies, then 6 cav's and 3 maces capture the heavily defended city:

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4811/medinait9.jpg

Halfway my turnset BIG NEWS: Saladin has become a vassall of Isabella >>> Isabella declares WAR!
Capture immediately 4 spanish workers working along the borders. HELP! Forget north of us are two spanish city's aswell, with grenadiers approaching our weak defended city's. But our cav's appear to be very fast.

Next turns our cav's are doing a very good job against the arab and spanish grenadiers. I will lose only one, against a longbow..
Scipio Africano is born in Carthago. Attach him to a cav with funny promotions like extra movement and extra attack. He'll fight in the north. Set Carthago on Heroic Epic (only 8 turns). In my ninth turn we raze the spanish city in the north-west.

Stacks have reached both Seville and Medina in the south, each with two trebs. Maybe they are not strong enough but cav's are quick!

Cultureslider40%, both enemies still don't want to talk. In Carthago resides a great scientist.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/513/meccalm4.jpg


http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7347/sevillenk9.jpg

1550ADbombard! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/63149/Hannibal_the_Rich_AD-1550.CivWarlordsSave)

Nice turnset. I got the save. Man, vassals really complicate things.

Here the north of the empire: you can see the ruins west and east.


http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/2306/thenorthva7.jpg

We can build Oxford somewhere, but need one courthouse extra for FP.

Good job!

It seems warmongering without hammers is very viable. Cavalry can be devastating with this kind of tech lead.

Let's try to sign pe