EDIT: The game is closed unless someone drops out

This post has been changed to roster and updates.

Current Roster:

mr_2_u (just played)
D'art (skipping?)
Bucephalus (skipping)
Phaedo(up)
Sal(on deck)
Aabra (warming up)

Phaedo,
I'd be very interested in a training day game, but I've never done a succession game, so I don't know whether your proposed conditions are workable. I have some questions about the one you propose, though. I list myself as a regent level player because I haven't played anything above that. But I'm thumping the AI pretty hard in my current game as China on continents, regent-level. So I'd like to move up.

What difficulty level do you propose? What about skill level of players? (You won't hurt my feelings if you're looking for emperor or above players.)

What about variations or victory conditions?

Sorry, I realized after I got up that I didn't mention anything about level or other details:blush:

I guess i was thinking at least emperor. If you are thumping the AI at regent, I think you would probably win at monarch too so an emperor game shouldn'd intimidate you. You are more than welcome.

Details:
Level: Emperor
Version: version 1.22
Maximum Players: five

Map: Standard, 60% H2O with any configuration other than pangea.
I am open to any victory condition other than Wonder and think we can decide that when some people join up.
As for the civ, I’m not partial. Random is fine of if there is some civ that most people want to play that is fine too.
Barbs: Restless

Once we decide on the victory condition(s) we are aiming for, we stick to it.

Well, maybe I'm brave and maybe I'm foolhardy, but I'll give it a shot. (I guess I'd rather take a whoopin' at emperor than wax the AI at warlord.) I should probably also mention that my regent-level playing has basically meant . . . well, a whole lot of warmongering.

A couple of quick questions & comments:

Once a decision has been reached through consensus, majority or inaction, All players take the game until the tasks discussed have been completed and we post saves.

Once the first tasks are complete, we discuss the pros and cons of the various positions and decide which save we will play from. After that, we play 5 turns and each player is on his or her own.

IIUC, every five turns, we all post saves and compare them? Then choose a "save point" from which everyone begins the next set?

I'd also prefer C3C 1.22. I'm not a huge fan of having our civ chosen randomly, but if we can get other players, I'll make do with whatever everyone decides. As for landmasses, I'd prefer continents, but that can be decided later. The rest of the settings sound fine to me.

I've got CivAssistII. Any other mods or graphics I'll need?

Well, I was thinking that for the first turn (or so) we could all see how we do. There are possible differences with the way we could micro manage cities or differences in movement. If we are all basically making the same moves, we ought to see what the differences between choices and be able to compare relative benefits of the differences. It is the only way I can think of highlighting those small variations.

If we do it for all turns it would probably take too long so I was thinking to just do it for the first couple of sets.

So we have two. A couple more and we have a game. I'd rather not randomly pick a civ. I don't care who we play but I think we should pick one that either makes our chosen victory condition more or less difficult depending on the team's confidence. I'm down with continents unless anyone who joins has really strong feelings against it. I would just rather not play pangea if possible.

I could join if you don't get enough people otherwise. I have never played in an succession game before but I've been following this part of the forum for over a year now.

I might be a little overqualified though as I can beat monarch with almost any start but I very rarely play anything higher than that as it feels like I have to put too much thought into it to enjoy it fully. So if you get enough people without me I can just lurk but if not, I'd be happy to join.

I have no civ preference as I usually just go for random nowadays, whatever you choose is fine with me. Preferably one with a medieval unique unit though as a despotic golden age is never that much fun :) I agree that pangaea would not be ideal as it takes away one aspect of the game - boats. Then again, archipelago has a little too much emphasis on that in my opinion so continents would be great.

I will join, despite my other training game.

Well, this is great. We have four which should be enough given that it will be slow in the beginning. It would be nice to have at least one more but I'm willing to start if you guys are comfortable with that. I don't think we should be too concerned with playing quickly so there may be value to fewer players. It does seem that players drop out for various reasons through the game but we could always take on more if we want. What do you all think?

Big thanks to D'artagnan, I have been following your game closely and have learned lots:D .

I agreee that we shouldn't start with an AA UU and it seems we have consensus on the type of world. So we should decide on the civ. Any suggestions? I have a bit of a partiality to the Koreans for purely non-game reasons . They seem to fit the bill and add the extra challenge of not allowing dinghies from the first turn even if we are by the coast; thus limiting our early trade opportunities and potentially putting us under some early pressure. I really don't care who we play although I agree a post AA GA is better.

What about victory condition? Anyone have a preference? I think we should leave most, if not all, options on but choose one goal and stick with it.

As I said this is my first SA game so I do have a technical question: if anyone can help. I usually use Snoopy's terrain. If I use that to roll the starts will affect anyone's ability to load the save properly?

I've only played a couple of games with the Koreans but my take on their UU (the Hwacha or whatever it was :p) is that it's a bit lame. Lethal bombardment sounds nice in theory but in practice you would need at least four (if all hit) to kill just one veteran enemy troop. And since usually at least one third of the shots miss you would need a whole lot of them to kill troops fortified in cities. Feels like a lot of work for very little profit.

As for a victory condition.. I'd rather not go for the 100k culture victory but everything else is fine with me. Domination or conquest would be my preferred choice. We should leave them all on though.

As I said this is my first SA game so I do have a technical question: if anyone can help. I usually use Snoopy's terrain. If I use that to roll the starts will affect anyone's ability to load the save properly?

It won't have any effect whatsoever. If you look at some other SGs it seems that everybody uses different terrain modifications these days :)

Welcome aboard, one and all!

I've also been lurking in all of the active TDGs here, including D'Artagnan's other training game.

As for Snoopy's graphics modpack, I haven't used it, but I've been thinking about downloading it, anyway. So if I need to download it to play this SG, that's fine with me.

Last night I decided that I'd better at least give emporer a try, in the interest of not totally humiliating myself. I actually wound up starting several games. I began as the Chinese, because I've played them more than anyone else. The first few games were disasters. (My cities rioted almost as fast as I could found them. I began to wonder if my settlers had found a luxury not listed in the civilopedia -- tequila).

Then I decided to jump headfirst into the unknown:
Emperor -- never played it before last night
Restless barbs -- never had them as restless
Rome -- never played them before
Otherwise, continents, 70% water, everyone else random.

I am pleased to report that by 1225 BC, I'd founded 7 cities, made contact with three civs, traded with them (though not as well as I'd have liked), located horses and iron, pulled off the republic slingshot, and was known as the "Magnificent Romans." And all with (iirc) only one or two instances of civil disorder! All in all, I was very pleased.

Civ choice I think will be, in part, governed by our victory conditions. There are some traits that will be useful almost no matter what, though.

Industrious -- Come on, who doesn't like faster workers?

Commercial -- Kind of like industrious. How could you not like more money and lower corruption?

Agricultural -- More food = faster growth. 'Nuff said?

Militaristic -- So that we can get in touch with our inner warmongers.

As to UU, I vote for an offensive unit that can trigger our golden age in the MA. Too early and we don't get much out of it. Too late and the game will have already been won.

Edited: to add Militaristic. Also, I'd like to do some warmongering, so conquest is good as a victory condition. Space shuttle, though, gives us the opportunity to work through all of the ages of the game.

Also, as a procedural matter, let's consider how to designate saves. If we're all uploading & downloading files that are named exactly the same (e.g., "Chairman Mao of the Chinese, 1250 B.C."), it's going to get easy for something to get lost in the shuffle.

Something like Phaedo_1250BC or Phaedo01_1250BC is typical, and works well.

Oh... Militaristic is not recommended by the pros. But do Rome.

Oh... Militaristic is not recommended by the pros. But do Rome.

Really? I hadn't seen that. I would have thought militaristic would have been recommended. Well, we can't do Rome without doing militaristic.

Do Rome anyway. Conquest or Domination preffered.

Ok, my vote is for domination if we are going to be warmongers but Rome will give us an AA Ga. What about Russia, Germany or the Ottomans? Vikings or the Mongols could be choices too. In the Spirit of democracy (which I doubt our subjects wil l ever see:devil: ) let's vote.
Phaedo: Ottomans
Aabraxan: ?
Salarakas: ?
D'Artagnan59: Rome (?)

Once we decide on the civ I'll roll the starts

Russia: exp and sci, cossacks. Scientific is great, expansionist less so. Cossacks are pretty nice as the extra possible attack (or even two!) can be used for leaderfishing. Pretty good time for a golden age too.

Germany: sci and mil, panzers. Sci is great, mil is also very nice if we go for domination. Panzers, however, come in much too late.

Ottomans: sci and ind, sipahi. Used to be my favourite civ in the game as both traits are excellent and the sipari is one of the best unique units in the game. Golden age in the medieval era too.

Vikings: mil and sea, berserks. You said we didn't want to get early contacts from boats so getting three-move curraghs right from the start is probably not a good idea. An interesting civ but it seems it's not the best choice for this game.

Mongols: exp and mil, keshiks. Again, expansionist is not very strong and militaristic, although nice, is not the best trait in the game. Keshiks can be great on a map with lots of mountains and hills but in a normal game not that strong. The golden age would be perfectly timed though.


Out of these I'd go for Ottomans (if we want the best civ) or Russia (if we want a more interesting civ).

My cities rioted almost as fast as I could found them.

And all with (iirc) only one or two instances of civil disorder!

City disorders can be easily avoided if you use some helper program like Mapstat (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=52902) or CivAssist II (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=118540). They will automatically tell you if some city is unhappy so you don't have to manually check them all each turn. Personally I recommend Mapstat as it's very lightweight and does what it's supposed to do. Both are great though so give them a try :)


I also recommend getting THIS (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=122958) for easily spotting happy and unhappy faces in the domestic advisor (F1) screen. To install it:
1. Make a backup of popHeads.pcx which is in your "Civilization III\Conquests\Art\SmallHeads" directory. Rename it to popHeads.pcx.orig or something.
2. Copy popHeads.pcx from the c3c directory of the package to "Civilization III\Conquests\Art\SmallHeads".

If you want to restore the original one just delete the new popHeads.pcx and rename popHeads.pcx.orig back to popHeads.pcx


Edit: and if you didn't know it's the number of unhappy citizens compared to happy citizens that determines if a city riots or not. More unhappy than happy and the city will riot. E.g. 3 happy, 3 content and 4 unhappy and it will riot. 3 happy, 4 content and 3 unhappy and it will stay content.

I'm down with either Russia or Ottomans. What do Dart and Abra think?

How about France?

The quotes that Salarakas included were from two different games -- one as the Chinese, one as the Romans. Believe it or not, I have CivAssist II. I just wasn't monitoring my cities close enough, a problem that I (mostly) corrected before beginning as the Romans, I guess. Thanks for the info on rioting though, Salarakas. I wasn't sure if an even split on happy vs. unhappy rioted or not.

Of the civs currently on the table, I'd have to lean towards France or Rome. (I was going to vote for the Ottmans or the Romans, but D'Artagnan snuck in another choice while I was writing this). Anyway, here's why:

Rome: In spite of the early UU, I think this might not be a bad choice. While I'm certainly not opposed to militaristic, I think the key to Rome is the commercial trait. Lower corruption will help a larger % of our empire be productive, especially in the cities sort of a middle distance from our capitol. The real hinterlands will still be hopelessly corrupt, but you can't save 'em all. I don't really care about the Legionary's extra defensive point, because I don't really plan on defending much. I'd rather be on the offensive. That said, Legionaries reguire iron, and if we slingshot republic, we might be able to stall our GA until late AA or early MA.

Ottomans: A very powerful UU that replaces cavs. That puts our GA in the early IA, assuming it's triggerred by the UU and not a Wonder. I haven't played scientific much, so I can't really say how useful I think it is. I played Sumeria (scientific) in my very first (Chieftain) game, but I don't really think I learned much from that except for what some of the shiny little buttons did. Industrious is nice, but given the smaller number of content citizens that you get on Emperor, shouldn't we be churning out more workers and settlers, anyway?

Russians: Do we really want expansionist? Having a scout is nice, but once we pop the available goodie huts, how does it benefit us? The Cossack, like the Legionary, has an extra defensive point (not that interesting) and replaces cav (GA in the IA). The extra attack that Salarakas mentioned, however, is very interesting.

Mongols: Not so interested. Keshiks have an extra movement point, but so do riders and ansar warriors. If we want to replace Knights to shoot for an early MA GA, let's go with one of those. Of the two, I'd prefer Chinese because ot the trait combinations: Chinese (industrious and militaristic) vs. Arabs (religious and expansionist). I think the Chinese are better suited to conquest, not sure about domination.

France -- Great looking trait combination. I've never played France and I question the UU, but that may be a matter of inexperience on my part. That said, I think the trait combination overwhelms any reservations I may have about musketeers.

Given our landmass & victory conditions, I'd say stay away from seafaring generally.

BTW, as to victory conditions, I'd say leave them all on, but just go for conquest or domination. Won't that give the AI other conditions by which it could beat us? If so, I'd say give it that chance.

Ottomans: A very powerful UU that replaces cavs. That puts our GA in the early IA,assuming it's triggerred by the UU and not a Wonder.

Not really. We would probably first research chivalry for knights and then go full speed towards military tradition which would be the ninth middle age tech. We would then have at least seven middle each techs left before the industrial age.

I haven't played scientific much, so I can't really say how useful I think it is.

1. It gives you a free tech when entering a new age. Not really a game deciding thing but getting techs like feudalism (medieval infantry and pikemen), steam power (coal and railroads) and computers (mech infantry) for free is pretty cool.
2. We'll probably want to build libraries in all our core cities. 40 shields instead of 80 is a big difference. That makes them the second cheapest culture buildings in the game too (30 shield temples for religious civs). Temples, however, are pretty much useless in normal games so I'd much rather have a cheap and very useful building than a 25% cheaper and almost useless one.

if theres still an open spot for this ill be up for joining in.

I really have to much time on my hands.......

Sure Allanc. I think there is room for one more.

In reference to the civ discussion, I really love France and play them often. D'art's playing them now in his SG. The super musket and speedy workers are nice eh? I've never played the Ottomans which is why I went for them but after looking at everything that was said and thinking about it, I'm leaning towards Russia. That industrious trait is Sooooo useful that maybe it is a crutch we shouldn't use (I know you're not all that confident about this level Abra but we have some good players and there ought to be some good discussion so don't worry).

We could proabably spend weeks talking about the relative value of civs. So we have five players now so there won't be a tie. Let's vote Russia or France.
What say you all?

My vote is for Russia. We set up a Czar, later have our Bolshivek revolution and crush all our imperialist enemies:evil:

P.S. I'll roll starts for both so either will be ready when the results are in

I've rolled the starts so we are ready to go once we decide on a civ. Both Lennin and Jean Baptiste are waiting for our leadership. :salute:

I've never used photobucket before to upload images. Are there any tricks I should know?

Oh yea, I almost forgot. What time zones is everyone in? It would be good to know for the roster. Just include it with your vote. I'm GMT +9

Allanc, welcome aboard.

If France & Russia are my two choices, I still prefer France. That said, if everyone else wants to play Russia, then Russia it is. For that matter, if all other votes come back Ottomans, I'm good with that, too. In for a penny, in for a pound.

Phaedo, thanks for rolling the starts. Did you do 6 for each?

I'm in the U.S.A., central time zone (GMT -6, I think).

I did 6 for Russia and 6 for France as It seemed that Sal was leaning more towards Russia and I followed after some thought (I dropped the Ottomans because I had originally suggested it). They are the first 6 that came up so it is as random as the game can get.

Standard Map 70% H2O
Restless Barbs
Normal, temperate and 4 Billion
Average agression

Edit: I just realized that I left all victory conditions on. If we ae going for domination, maybe I should have disabled conquest as we might hit that before we have rid the wold of our enemies

I have no problem playing France and I kind of like te idea of Quebec taking over the world although I feel Russia would be more challenging and beacuse I have seen the starts, I don't want to be subconsiously influenced by what I saw.

That said I am fully happy with whatever the team wants

1. Hi Allanc, welcome aboard! Could you please tell us your skill level and how long you've played the game?

2. I'm from Europe so GMT is pretty close to the truth for me.

3. Russia vs France: France has better traits in my opinion as expansionist isn't that great but I'd much rather have an offensive unique unit. And I doubt anyone plays the Russians that often so it should be an interesting choice for us all. So my vote goes for Russia.

4. My suggestions concerning the victory conditions. Leave these on:
-domination
-space race
-diplomatic
-conquest
-cultural
-preserve random seed (important!)
-allow cultural conversions (allows cities to flip)

Disabling any of the "normal" victory conditions only makes it harder for the AI to win and therefore we should keep them on. It also forces us to worry about not reaching e.g. conquest before hitting the domination level or vice versa. Adds a bit more flavour to the game :)

Everything else off, including culturally linked starting locations (adds a bit more randomness to the game), respawn AI players (nobody keeps this on in succession games) and allow scientific leaders (luck would play such a big part as getting an SGL basically means a free wonder).

Fair enough. My rolls left the great leader onbut you are absolutely right. I'll turn it off and re-roll. I think France is stronger too; hence my vote goes to the Russians;)

That gives Russia: 2
France: 1

Still waiting for D'art and All. I thought i saw that D'art was in North America and we don't know All's time zone. If we go from the international time zone east, it would give people a little more time to move and look at the save and respond. If two people are in the same time zone they should be split up though.

I'm glad I said patience was required in the Thread title:blush: . Still, we are almost ready to see some starts and decide what to do:D

Fair enough. My rolls left the great leader on but you are absolutely right. I'll turn it off and re-roll. I think France is stronger too; hence my vote goes to the Russians;)

That gives Russia: 2
France: 1

Still waiting for D'art and Al. I thought i saw that D'art was in North America and we don't know All's time zone. Assuming most of us will play in the evenings, if we go from the international time zone east, it would give people a little more time to move and look at the save and respond. If two people are in the same time zone they should be split up though.

I'm glad I said patience was required in the Thread title:blush: . Still, we are almost ready to see some starts and decide what to do:D

Fair enough. My rolls left the great leader on but you are absolutely right. I'll turn it off and re-roll. I think France is stronger too; hence my vote goes to the Russians;)

That gives Russia: 2
France: 1

Still waiting for D'art and Al. I thought i saw that D'art was in North America and we don't know Al's time zone. Assuming most of us will play in the evenings, if we go from the international time zone east, it would give people a little more time to move and look at the save and respond. If two people are in the same time zone, I'm thinking they should be split up.

I'm glad I said patience was required in the Thread title:blush: . Still, we are almost ready to see some starts and decide what to do:D

Just for some food for thought:
If we are planning to be warmongering, I am assuming we will want Monarchy and then Communism for governments eh? Any thoughts on going 0 tech vs. burning for Phil?

Ooops. Sorry about all those posts. Connection issues:(

Well i play around Emperor level and can usually win unless theres a catastrophic start. and ive been playing civ since civ 2.
I live in England so im on GMT.

as for civs, my vote goes to Russia. Expansionist isnt nearly as bad as it sounds, early contacts= early trades=easyer tech lead
Besides I just played a game with France.

That's a majority for Russia.

As for governments, I've done all of my warmongering in Republic, though I'd be happy to try monarchy. My usual tactic in the science arena has been to beeline the republic slingshot and use monopoly techs for trade along the way. (And, of course, trade peace for techs and gold). Get into Republic as fast as possible and then pick up the other non-optional techs to get me on the way to knights.

Then again, maybe I've been too gung-ho about getting into Republic. . .

I voted France, but Russia it is.

I live in the East Coast U.S., so I'm U.S. Eastern.

OK. I rolled the starts but I don't have time to upload the images now. I'll do it after work (in about 10 hours). They provide some interesting challenges.

Here are the 1st 4 starts

And here are the last 2

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/Start1.jpg

This one doesn't seem tooooo bad. We're on a river, there's some sugar near and it looks like there some H2O to the east. No a lot of food for quick growth which I don't like

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/Start2.jpg

This one just looks downright ugly. Although after some careful looking. I think there may be some water to the east just out of view.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/Start3.jpg

This Guy looks interesting. There's H2o, grass, flood plains, forests and a hill around. There's also that river delta to the west indicating ocean.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/Start4.jpg

Lot's of grass and some hills with the river but there are no early indications of the sea and I don't like the look of the jungles to the south

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/Start5.jpg

the ocean and a varied mix of plains nd grass. Nothing special that I can see though.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/Start6.jpg

I'm not sure how to judge this one. The mountains definately suck but there look to be rivers both east and west so subsequent cities could grow big. Game is near and it looks like it might be plains and hills to the east.


I guess I think 1 and 3 are strongest but I am tempted by 6

I like 1 and 6, with an honorable mention to 4.

Start 1 — I don't care for the flood plains right there at our settler's back, but one step SE leaves you on the river, and keeps both sugars in the 9-tile square. There's water on the eastern edge, but I don't see any delta from that river. Not sure what to make of that.

Start 6 – I think the game nearby outweighs the mountains. Game will provide early growth without requiring the exttra citizen that the sugar in #1 will. OTOH, the sugar in #1 will add commerce. Two visible BGs. With that many mountains, hopefully one will have iron.

Start 4 – Three BGs and a river. Doesn't rubber show up in the jungle? A consideration for later. The downside is that the minimap indicates that we could be right in the middle of the continent and defense could be tricky.

I like the look of numero 4 and 6very much.

Lots of green, river and hills for mid game production.
the jungles is a blow though. But just expand north and then go on a jungle slashing crusade later on in the game, cities can still do alright in jungle of they have a few bananas or hills around.

6 is good as well. dont imediatly shun mountains. Late game they can be very good. speciay if coal or iron shows up onn them. But game on forests are immense early game. moving 1 SE to hopefully show some BG's will help

I like #6 the most. Chop the forest, irrigate the game and pump out settlers until there's no more land to fill. Is that a bonus grassland under the units? If yes, we'd probably want to move the settler. If not, settle in place.

#4 would be my second choice too. I hate starting near floodplains so not too thrilled about #3.

I like 6 and 4 best too.

Hey,

If you guys don't think there are enough players yet, I would be interested in joining as well :). Downside is that I am not at all an experienced player (three months, though I did play really intensively). My current playing level is regent, at which I have played about four games. I think my early game is decent, as are my city management skills, but I really need improvement on my military skills and the late game.
Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=186839) you can find a small glimpse (40 turns) of my gameplay.

I can understand if you reject my application, because there is a risk that I will destroy all your hard earned work in one blow ;).

Greetings,
Mr. O

Well, I guess having 6 in the roster isn't too bad in case RL issues get in the way. I don't really mind. I don't think it should be a unilateral decesion so what do the other team members think?

@Sal: Why do you hate flood plains? I understand if you are surrounded by them because of the disease risk, bu tin that start there is only one flood plain square. That is 4 food and 2 shields once irrigated and roaded. Why is that bad?

Still, I am comfortable with #4 or #6. Between the two I'd choose 6 because of the two rivers and I'm not a fan of starting near jungles.

I say let Twixmeistah in. I also say that it's time to close the roster. Not that I'm unfriendly, but I think 6 is probably where we need to stop for the sake of time. Naturally, if RL issues get in the way or someone drops out, we can always open it up again.

Looks like we've got it narrowed down to 4 & 6. I vote for #6.

As to flood plains, do you have to be surrounded by them for disease to strike, or just border on them? I thought I had one recently where disease struck my city where it only bordered flood plains.

If they are anywhere in your city square you can be hit. The thing about that save was that there was only 1 flood plain. I thought the risk of disease would be pretty slim. I am assuming the randomized risk would increase the more FP were in the square.

And I agree. However the vote goes, the roster will be closed after it.

6 is good as well. dont imediatly shun mountains. Late game they can be very good. speciay if coal or iron shows up onn them. But game on forests are immense early game. moving 1 SE to hopefully show some BG's will help

Any particular reason for SE? If our settler weren't standing on a BG, I'd drop him where he stands. But, as he is, I'd go either NW or SW. NY takes us back towards the center of the minimap (away from the tundra that I expect to see to the south), and both keep that deer right next door.

sorry i should have been more specific, moving scout SE will reveal some grassland hopefully with some bonuses. If there are any bonuses down there then id move 1 SE. Although i see the benifit in 1 SW as well.

So scout S then S on to mountain should give us a clear spot of where to settle.

I won't have time to play but I will lurk.

I don't think you need to limit your self to 5 turns in the first turn sets. There is not a lot of action in the early turns and they go by rather fast. What you want to do is use dot maps to examine and discuss future city placements. Yes, the first turns are critical and the worker turns need to be used wisely. But good discussion and planning are the real keys in the early turns of an SG.

I do think that you will need to pay a lot of attention to city happiness. At Empeoreror (however it is spelt) your first citizen is content, the next one is cranky. So early luxuries and using units as Military Police becomes very important.

The reason I was thinking 5 turns was mostly for city management. If we were all doing the same moves with the settler and worker any differences with Mming the city would become apparant. I figured 5 turns would be easier to analyse than 10. However I have been playing a SG game with my friend via e-mail and I would be happy with 10. I do want everyone to take the first couple turn sets though.

I think I prefer start #4. Although the jungle has more disadvantages (disease, low production and low movement) than advantages (eventually rubber), the rest looks promising. The three BG's are of couse great for some quick growth and the site also has some hills for mining purpose. A good combination!

The mountains of #6 seems bad to me. The mountains slow down expansion greatly and movement rate is slow (scouts will take one step per mountain in stead of the usual two). There is a risk that there will be a lot of mountains as well in the further surroundings. It will then be a very tough job, because it's really hard to expand quickly and to grow some kingsize cities. It's my opinion that the advantage we get with the game and the rivers is equal to the disadvantage of the mountains.

The difference in quality of 4 and 6 are really quite minimal, so I have no problem at all starting on site 6. I sort of liked start 3 as well to be honest. It is very versatile and has almost all the terrain types (which I found out is rather useful), and a river and an ocean. The only downside really is the wetland... But I think #3 is out of the question already, so forget what I just said ;).

I do want everyone to take the first couple turn sets though.

I thinks it's a nice formula, and 5 turns to begin with sounds good as well.

Phaedo: The extra food the floodplains give you is nice but the disease part totally sucks. True, there's only one visible in #3 but I still hate it ;)

Personally I would go for 10 turns (or even 20!) in the beginning and then compare as you don't get much difference in just 5 turns. Some choices like moving the settler could hurt you in the very beginning but pay out in a dozen turns or so. But 5 is fine of course if that's what you want.

I'm fine with 10 turns. I agree that so little happens in the first 5 turns it is a bit of a waste. I can see the value of 20 too but let's keep it to 10 for the sake of analysis.
Right then, Let's vote on the start and get this underway.
I vote for 6
Twix: 4 (I think this is right eh?)
Sal: ?
All: ?
Abra: ?
D'art: ?

I think I prefer start #4. Although the jungle has more disadvantages (disease, low production and low movement) than advantages (eventually rubber), the rest looks promising.
The jungle will only give you disease if a citizen is working a jungle tile.

CommandoBob and TimBentley -- Welcome. Glad to have you along for the ride.

We're still waiting on Allanc, D'Art, and Salarakas to weigh in on Twixmeistah's admission. Allanc and Salarakas have both checked in & posted since Twix's request. Am I correct in assuming that neither of you object to Twix's joining?

Whatever we decide on the number of turns, I agree that everyone should take the opening turns so that we can compare notes on opening moves. I think that's an important part of this game. As to the number, I'm inclined for 10 in the very early stages, just because so little happens when you've only got one or two cities.

The land grab looks like this:
Phaedo: 6
Twix: 4
Aabraxan: 6 (2nd choide 4)
Salarakas: 6 (2nd choice: 4)
D'art: 6
Allanc: 6

BTW, Twixmeistah, from your "Irresistible Iroquois," the English equivalent of "killing two flies with one blow" is "killing two birds with one stone."

Edited to add Allanc's vote on the start.
Edited for D'artagnan's vote.

I'll vote for #6 again :)

By the way, if you feel it's too crowded here now with Twixmeistah on board I can step down. I enjoy reading the games and like I said in my first post I joined (mostly) because it seemed you were having trouble getting enough people otherwise. If you're going with one week per turn it might be better to keep the number of players relatively small or it tends to get tedious after a while. I could stay as 'an advisory observer' and then join if someone has to drop out for whatever reason.

The mountains of #6 seems bad to me. The mountains slow down expansion greatly and movement rate is slow (scouts will take one step per mountain in stead of the usual two).
true but a scout can see up too 3 squares around when on a mountain. So if the mountains are dotted around the scout can move 1st on a flat square and end on a mountain, meaning more black squares are revealed. In #6 the mountains look dotted instead of solid banks of mountains so I dont think thats a problem.

My vote goes to 6

true but a scout can see up too 3 squares around when on a mountain. So if the mountains are dotted around the scout can move 1st on a flat square and end on a mountain, meaning more black squares are revealed.

But then the next move reveals nothing further, so nothing is really gained.

Whatever we decide on the number of turns, I agree that everyone should take the opening turns so that we can compare notes on opening moves. I think that's an important part of this game. As to the number, I'm inclined for 10 in the very early stages, just because so little happens when you've only got one or two cities.

I do like the idea of everyone taking the initial start, playing turns and then comparing notes. But you may want to increase those turns from 10 to 15 or even 20. Or not.

I also like the idea of week long turns. Allows for RL. I like Civ, but it is not the only thing I do (regardless of what my wife says).

Six is mine.

So 6 it is:)
I'd like your input Sal but if it gets too tedious, you can drop down to oberver status. It is of course your choice.

I'd rather not go over 10 turns. I know that not much happens in the beginning, but that's not a bad thing. The goal is to learn. If we are all taking turns and comparing differences, the less that happens will highlight small differences thht can then be analyzed.

So the next step is to decide what we are going to do for the next 10 turns:)

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/PhaedoStart6.jpg

We are on a bonus grass so I'm assuming we want to move. The quetion is where? We want to keep the game in our city square. There isn't a chance to get on a river in one turn but if we move into the forest, we would at least have some river squares in our influence.

We'll learn more with our first explorer move and maybe we can't decide on the city until we see what we can see. If we move our worker on the game and move our explorer up, I think we will get the information we need.

But then the next move reveals nothing further, so nothing is really gained.
true but exploration is about speed.
But I digress.......

id move worker onto game, then scout 2 S onto mountain. That should give us a good view of the surroudning area and our next move should take into consideration any bonuses uncovered by exploration.

If you look at the full screen shots on page 2, you will see that we are in the bottom right of the map. That's why I would suggest north to the mountain

My opinion of the first turn:

Settler:
One thing is certain, we are going to move the settler so that the BG is not wasted, and do that in a way that the game will still be in the city radius. So we have two possibilities for our capital, either the forest NW or SW of our current position. This depends on what our worker or scout uncovers in his first move.

Worker:
The tile with the game is our most productive tile (2-0-2, and 2-1-2 with road) so our worker should be heading directly towards there and start a road ASAP. Moreover, with moving our worker on the game, he will uncover some of the surroundings and with that make the choice for our settler a lot easier. :)

Scout:
I think it's clear after the worker turn as where to move our settler. So the scout doesn't have a task any more in finding a city site. He can now focus on exploring the area. We could move him N, S or E on the mountains. My choice is north, because it simply looks interesting there. Besides, if you go south, you will scout towards the south pole and limiting your available movement. It is better to scout towards open space, because the probability for settlements, resources and other civilizations is bigger that way.
Or do you guys feel that the near surroundings of our city should be investigated first, and after that the search for other civilizations should be opened?

Given our position on the minimap, I say exploration to the north is where we begin. I don't see any need to scout the south pole just yet. I think the game is our best currently visible square and I'd like our first citizen to be able to work it asap. Given these two ideas, I'd say our opening moves should be:

1) Worker one square due west (onto game). Road to begin as soon as possible, unless river is uncovered that would allow irrigation. In that case, irrigate.

2) The scout's moves will depend on what the worker unveils. My hunch is that we want him to go onto the mountain two squares NW of the settler's current position.

3) Settler, like scout, will move according to what the other two reveal. I don't want him to wander aimlessly very long. Given what I can currently see, I think one move, either SW or NW, and plop settler down on the forest square. That gets him off the (known) BG that he's on, and keeps the game close.

One possibility would be to move the settler SW-W. The worker could then chop (since Russia starts with pottery) and irrigate the game immediately.

I like TimBentley's idea, too. The only problem that I see is that it sets our empire back two turns before founding our first city.

I don't like the idea of moving the settler 1SE on top of the forest:

1. There might be bonus grassland under that forest which would make moving the settler pretty much a waste.

2. We would waste 10 shields which we would get from the chop.

3. This would also put us one square from the river. Founding cities one square from the river is not the best of ideas and therefore we would probably want to move the settler a second time which I don't like at all.

So, based on what se we see right now I would found the capital where the settler now stands and waste the BG. Losing the free aqueduct (if we were to move next to a river) will not hurt us in a very long time as we'd most likely use the capital as a settler-factory and keep it under size 7 anyway.

But, of course, this all might change once we've moved the worker on top of the gameforest and the scout on top of whatever mountain we choose.

We haven't heard from D'art yet but it seems we are all agreed to move the worker to the game first (I don't imaging he would disagree as the whole reason we took this save was for the game). There is some disagreement about where to place the city. Just for the record, I think you can just make out some coast (or an inland sea) 1 NW of the mount above the game. I don't think this really affects our first move.

I guess an awful lot depends on that first worker move. Maybe I should just make that one move and then post the screenies and see if we can reach a consensus. The other option would be to just post the save and we caould all place the settler where we think it is best and analyze the results. The latter option won't really help with MM skills but there could be a lot of value in seeing just how big a difference there is between 1, 2 or 0 moves in the first 10 turns.

We also have to decide how we are going to approach research. This will happen at the same time we found our first city. We have already decided to go for a warmongering approach. Do we do some Phil gambit or 0 research?

I usually do the Phil thing as it is easier for trading, but I have never really tried a 0 research pproach from the beginning. I don't really have a preference. I would really like some training on 0 research, but I think a couple of team members should have some expereience in this area if we are to do it. I know I will definately need some guidance in that area. As I was hoping this game would really help us none soem MM skills I worry that if we jump into some tactic blindly, we will end up biting off more than we can chew and we'll end up scrambling for the win rather than really learning.

Oh yea, from looking at the start I think we can be sure that the river doesn't border the game. There won't be any irrigating it in our 1st 10 turns.:sad:

Also. I forgot to bring it up in my above post but we should also think about our first build. I think this is related to our research choice. I think a warrior would be best but the granary possibility is a real one with game and not a lot of big food producing squares around. 0 research gives us some flexibilty with the slider but as we don't start with alphabet, the slider could hurt us in a phil bid.

Oh yea, from looking at the start I think we can be sure that the river doesn't border the game. There won't be any irrigating it in our 1st 10 turns.:sad:

Also. I forgot to bring it up in my above post but we should also think about our first build. I think this is related to our research choice. I think a warrior would be best but the granary possibility is a real one with game and not a lot of big food producing squares around. 0 research gives us some flexibilty with the slider but as we don't start with alphabet, the slider could hurt us in a phil bid.

Since you are an expansionist civ, I would suggest one, or even two scouts as your first build. Meeting other civs early and trading techs is one of the great advantages of this trait; ditto popping goody huts for techs. For those reasons also, I would start with zero science; it is quite possible to get all first tier techs without research.

I totally agree with Bucephalus. Scouting land (gaining technologies and cash from settlements and meeting other civs to trade these techs with) is now more important than quickly creating a settler factory and the need for science fundings isn't big that way.

The '0 research thing' also gives us freedom in using our lux slider and will grant us some cash for trading purpose.

I also think that the Republic slingshot would be too risky. We don't start the game with Alphabet, so we have a disadvantage right from the start. I prefer 0 science for the time being

As for the first builds, I recommend a warrior first (for the necessary defence), and quickly thereafter a scout (two scouts total will probably be enough, one heading north and one east) and a granary.

go for 0%.
Republic slingshot can only really work if yu start with alphabet.
If we fid were still behind then researching literature or other techs that the AI ever build will help.

I like TimBentlys idea of moving SW then W.
Moving worker onto game then scout to the NW mountain should reveal whether that would be worth it.

I think that Phaedo's right about the coast. The prescene of a river also helps us. If it is a coast then W W or W NW may put us on a coast. Ideal would be WW as then were on the river as well and can chop and irrigate the game.

Well, I've never done 0% science. But I'll certainly go along with it. As regards the first moves, it appears that we are all (except D'Art, from whom we haven't heard) in agreement that the worker needs to go to the game first. Once we see what that reveals, we'll know more. Let's make that move and then decide the rest. And by the way, I can't see that coast. Doesn't mean it isn't there, but I can't see it.

If you look closely NW of the mount, you can see a touch of brown (beach) and just barely see some blue. River tiles don't have the beach so it has to be sea or inland lake.

I'm going to post the save and let's all take the first 10 turns. Found the Cap where you think it will be best and decide your own builds.

It would be best if we agree on our research path before we start. We are gong to play from one of our starts and it would be best if we were all researching the same thing. I'm thinking Math then Currency. Currency seems to be one of the last thing the AI researches so with a single beakerhead at some point we may get it (I don't think it's likely but it's probably a better chance than Lit or someting like that). If we are going to go for the GL, I gues Alphabet would be best.

Maybe just save it a Phae(your name)_Phaedo'sSG_3000BC or something like that

Here's the save, just wait until we have a research consesus:)

OK. Now I see the bit of brown. I say begin w/ Alpha. At 0% science, we've got some time to decide where we go from there. Also, if that brown is a coast, Alpha will let us build a curragh to go exploring once we settle on the coast.

Scout and Worker should move before Settler.

Agreed. I moved the worker (first) onto the game and made a screenshot. If anyone wants me to, I'll be glad to post it.

Actually, I went ahead and played out my 10 turns. I haven't posted them yet because I don't want them to be a spoiler for anyone else. Phaedo commented earlier that we should agree on science before we start. Now maybe I just don't understand the 0% science gambit, but why would we have to agree if we're spending 0% on science and how long do we continue spending 0%?

I'm not sure why you want to go 0%. Yes, Russia is expansionist and scouts are nice but you only get 3 or so techs with them if you get lucky, 1 or bubkis if not.

The only thing 0% will do is get you some cash early on. However, that cash will you do you little good as it will most certainly be demanded by the civs you meet. You will of course give into their demands as an unprepared war early on is the last thing you want.

In other words - running 0% will only help your rivals. It won't do you one bit of good.

Or am I missing something here?

As I said, I'd never tried 0% science. I played my first 10 turns with 0% science and I have to say, I don't like it.

I have only had some limited 0 science experience. From what I've seen, it has some value. If you can meet enough civs there is usually a trading opportunity which can even you up in the early game if you are lucky. It also allows a strong military and deficit running. Conceivably, the stronger your military, the less the AI will come at you with demands (or for less). Personally, I've never truely done the 0 science. I always kept it at 10% so you get the tech in 50 turns. There is a chance you can get something before your neighbour and trade up to par again.

There is the luddite SG game that is going 0 research of any kind and no GL.

I have basically run my early science game in one of two ways:

1) Max science -- in this one, I figure out the shortest time in which I can research a tech, then move the science slider down far enough to hit that target while spending as little as possible.
2) Minimum -- usually, 20% is the lowest figure that I can find that will generate any appreciable science (iow, something other than "(Alphabet -- turns))." That gets the first tech in 50 turns with minimum spending.

It just depends on what sort of game I'm playing. There may be some value to running 0% science later in the game, but I fail to see any value in it as an opening gambit.

Lots of good discussion here... this has the makings of a good game. Good luck, team! :thumbsup:

The science slider all hinges on your citizens working gold. I'm not sure but even at the "alphabet in -- turns" stage, some science builds if you have any % allocated to it. When your slider is at 100% at the beginning it tells you the same number of turns as if it is on 80% but that actually isn't the case. I haven't fully tested this theory so it may all be bolllocks:blush:

In a big way Sal is right though. Can the exta gold you get from running 0% from the beginning really equal the science boost?

I also want to through out an idea about research. Is Alphabet really waht we want to study first? Math is a second tier tech and we have a good shot at getting it before many. It would put in a stronger trading position than researching Alphabet regardless how much we may want the GL.

I usually start with Alphabet because that's the route to Republic. I want my anarchy over asap. The smaller my empire when I face anarchy, the less I lose during it. I've never built the GL.

Even at a "(-- turns)" setting, there may be some gold being allocated to science. I have no idea how much. However, what I thought everyone was discussing was a 0% science gambit. I'm guessing that this allocates nothing to science and you don't make any progress.

I haven't discovered any techs, so I think I can make some comments without spoiling anyone else's first ten turns.

Alphabet puts us on the path to Republic. Even if we fail at the slingshot, the earlier we move into Republic, the better, I say. Despo provides some unit support and MP, but we can overcome that with more cities and careful use of the lux slider. Also, I've usually found that the AI will pay handsomely for writing. We can trade Writing for many things if we have a monopoly.

On the other hand, The Wheel and Bronze/Iron Working will reveal horses and iron, respectively. Knowing this earlier will help us plan where to send settlers. I'm aware that the AI is likely to research these. Monopoly techs are great because of their trade value, but we don't know for sure that we'll be able to trade them for anything worthwhile.

Finally, I have no idea how much the AI values Math. I'm all for going this route if: (1) we stand a good shot at a monopoly on Math; and (2) the AI will trade us some good stuff for it.

Science-wise, my first ten turns are blown. However, I have to recommend we not go with 0% science. If we want to go minimum science, I'm fine with that.

It seems we are the only one having the conversation:). i'm sure the others will join in eventually. All the things you say about 0% science makes sense to me. As I said I've never really done it. Is it just a variant or are there serious advantages to it? I remember reading Bede once saying that anything in between 0% and 100% was a waste. I still don't fully understand it.

If true 0% science can be a winning strategy, maybe we should try it. It would all be new to me. I am more comfortable with mimimal science myself.

As for governments, I'd like to get to communism eventually. Is republic what we want as warmongers?

The Grumpy Old Monk is wise, but was he talking about doing 0% from the beginning? I recall someone (vmxa, I think) talking about dialing it down to 0% after knights could be built, but that's a different scenario.

In my games, I've rarely been able to sustain 100% very long. I usually end up running 20%-30% on the lux slider, and 60-70% science. The rest goes to unit support.

Is republic what we want as warmongers? Thus far, I've done all of my warmongering in republic. Even with no unit support, I have been able to run 60+ units over my support limit and still (a) make a profit in gpt; and (b) outresearch the AI. Unfortunately, none of that has been at Emperor . . . There's a thread called "What gov't do you choose?" in the general discussion forum right now about different governments. One of the things that has come out is that, for communism to really be effective, you really have to plan from the beginning to have it, and it's a really late tech. You can build a very effective in republic, but it requires different characteristics than an effective communist empire. I think it has a lot to do with city placement, but I'll comb back through the thread and see. I recall some people saying that the problem is that you almost have to remodel your whole empire to go from Republic to Communism effectively.

I'm pretty happy with Republic, but if we really want to go for Communism, what about shooting for Monarchy, then on to Communism? Granted, that begins to sound a lot like AW, but Republic isn't set in stone for me.

First off, I'm afraid that the Republic Slingshot will be out of the question, since we simply don't start with Alphabet. The road will simply be too long to get Filosophy first. But it is true that republic is way better dan despotism anyway, even if we didn't get it for free. But it would take long to aquire it, and it isn't that good for our unit support (which is highly important for our military campaigns)

The plan was to warmonger our way to victory. Monarchy is better suitable for this, so it might be good to switch our attention towards that option. The required techs for Monarcy are researched rather late by the AI, so they will be reasonably good trading tools too. :cool:

And about the 0% Sci. I think it isn't that effective in the beginning. The little cash we get doesn't compare at all to the downsides of having no research. Besides, we aren't experienced in this area, and it would be very unwise too experiment in this game. ;)

I think it's important to have a monopoly on a tech. The main option for a monopoly is of course Math. We are only one step away from it, and the other civs must first research Masonry. My vote goes to the amount of research that will let us almost certainly be the first to acquire Math. I don't know how soon the AI will research it, but would 40% research be enough to be the first ones there? We should estimate the turns in which we will be needing Math carefully. :)

P.S. Our scout should move East, gaining techs from settlements is now more important than exploring the coastline for future city sites.

My $0.02:

The Republic Slingshot is possible at emperor, even if you start without Alphabet. It's not easy, but possible.

As for governments... Republic is durable enough for all but the most serious warmongering. Most Monarchies will lag badly as the Middle Ages mature...

Republic to Communism is viable... and you are left with the option of remaining in Republic if you choose to.

I think we can warmonger our way to victory in Republic. While Monarchy provides unit support, we can make more gold in Republic. I think republic is worth it even if it's not free.

I also think that the 0% gambit is a losing proposition. I said that minimum research was fine by me, but upon further reflection, I vote max research towards Republic. (IOW, minimum spending for the shortest possible turns on Alpha to begin with.)

I agree with scoutsout and Aabraxan, monarchy is only really required when playing an always war game. Here the plan is to play aggressive and make lots of war but that doesn't mean you have to be at war all the time. War weariness can be dealt with by minimizing troop losses and then signing peace when it gets too bad.

I would start with alphabet (max science) and decide later whether the philosophy slingshot towards republic is possible or not. The decision whether to go for the great library or not can also wait for quite a few turnsets.

Communism is the ultimate warmongering government. However, you have to plan for it and it needs a totally different strategy to republic. In republic you want to irrigate the totally corrupt areas and use the extra population as scientists. In communism you need to change all the irrigation back to mines for shields as suddenly all your worthless towns can pump out troops just as fast as your core towns. You also need at least courthouses everywhere to push the corruption level down. And... the second anarchy really hurts unless you're a religious civ. But again, the decision can wait for a long time.

Well then, I suppose we should all take our 10 turns and see where we end up. The save is on the last page but here it is again. If we are going for the Phil slingshot, it would be wise to max that gold. Given all the past discussion, I don't see a problem with Abra taking his turns again.
Good luck all

Sorry, can't (or don't know how) to post the save again. It's on p.4

If you decide to go with research, don't forget to temporarily switch to something that you don't want before you pop a GH; you cannot get what you are currently researching.

Umm... looking at the victory status screen it appears as if the wonder victory condition is on.

Oh Christ! I checked, and you are right. I did say patience was required but perhaps this is asking too much:blush:

As Scout said, there is some interesting discussion in this team and I would like to continue it. What should we do? After all the discussion, we seemed to have changed some of our early decesions but have a good agreement about starting strategy.
We would have to roll new starts but that wouldn't be the end of the world. D'art seems to have lost a bit of interest as he has been posting in other threads but not this one.

Sal seems to be the "old hand" in the group. Care to try taking on trainer status? I, or someone else, can roll new starts. Russia is still good with a warmongering attitude and we have already decided on pursuing heavy science in the early rounds (I still like the fact that there are some differences in what we should research).

Abara played his turns (and I played a couple too after reading Sal's post) so a new start would put us back at the same decesion-making position again.

Is anyone interested in continuing with new rolls?

Thanks, Bucephalus . . . That's why I love having lurkers around.

If no one has any objections, I will go ahead and play my turns again.

As I was writing this, Phaedo posted again, so let me go ahead and address his post: I can go either way on the new start issue. I'm in if we have new starts; I'm in with the old one.

D'Arganan59 -- you still with us?

Do we have a research plan yet? Here's what I see from the posts:

Aabraxan: Max on Alpha
Salarakas: Max on Alpha
Phaedo: Math (minimum or maximum?)
Twixmeistah: Math (~40%?)
D'artagnan59: ???
Allanc: ??


1st Edit: Added Allanc (oops), and Phaedo's vote.

I guess I'd go with Math. I'm betting we can pick up aplah (and maybe lit) if we get math and meet civs in the right order. I'm really out on a limb on this one so it's more experimental than solid strategy. I'm thinking alpha will win out but there's a gambler's chance that math can beat it. For comparison's sake I'd like to try it.

There is still Al to think about too. He takes time to post but usually weighs in within a week on the issues being discussed. No one signed up for a rushed game:)

Start settings 1 (http://www.saunalahti.fi/kotti/temp/phaedo01v2-starta.jpg)
Start settings 2 (http://www.saunalahti.fi/kotti/temp/phaedo01v2-startb.jpg)

Start #1
http://www.saunalahti.fi/kotti/temp/phaedo01v2-start1.jpg
Not terribly exciting

Start #2
http://www.saunalahti.fi/kotti/temp/phaedo01v2-start2.jpg
Ditto

Start #3
http://www.saunalahti.fi/kotti/temp/phaedo01v2-start3.jpg
Two gameforests and fresh water are nice but...

Start #4
http://www.saunalahti.fi/kotti/temp/phaedo01v2-start4.jpg
Floodplains ;)

Start #5
http://www.saunalahti.fi/kotti/temp/phaedo01v2-start5.jpg
If only it had a river...

Start #6
http://www.saunalahti.fi/kotti/temp/phaedo01v2-start6.jpg
Now we're talking.. by far the best one. Irrigate all the wines and pump out some settlers! You can either get one town to +5 food in despotism or split the wines to two cities.

Thanks to Salarakas for fine and fast work.

My initial reactions:

1) I like sugar. I like rivers. Not a bad start. Also not a terrific one.

2) I like tobacco (but not as much as I like sugar). I like BGs. Again, I like rivers. Another "not bad but not great" start.

3) I really like the game and the fresh water, but we'd have to invest a ton of worker-turns to clear that area for our capitol to flourish.

4) Yep. Floodplains. . . . and little else. Blech.

5) No river, but I do see water on three sides. May or may not be fresh water, though. Nice, immediate access to silks though. And 4 BGs in the first 9 squares.

6) A river, 3 wines, and a BG! This is my favorite. Yeah, irrigate the wines for now, take advantage of their food bonus, look to trade them later.

My vote: 6
Second choice: 5

A couple of lurker comments:

"(-- turns)" means no money is being allocated to research. If you allocate any gold to research (either a scientist or a % of the slider that gives some gold, you will have a # of turns there.

It may not look, at the beginning, that 80% or 100% makes a difference, but that is because the # of turns calculation is based on the current gold output, and the maximum number of turns research can take is 50 (at least in conquests, which is what you are using I think), as long as have allocated some research to it.

However, 80% vs. 100% at the beginning can have a large impact on the final outcome, because as your civ grows, the amount of gold allocated grows.

"If you decide to go with research, don't forget to temporarily switch to something that you don't want before you pop a GH; you cannot get what you are currently researching"

Just don't do this in the middle of researching a tech - if you switch from 1 tech to another and back, you lose all your allocated research. It's a pain.

Thanks Sal for keeping things moving:)

I don't mind 1 but 4 has too many flood plains for me:cringe:

It's hard to argue with 6:D I love food:drool:

3 is risky. The 2 game are nice but if you hate floodplains, marshes bring the same problem and take forever to change.

Hands down #6

Now we're talking.. by far the best one. Irrigate all the wines and pump out some settlers! You can either get one town to +5 food in despotism or split the wines to two cities.

I think it's obvious that we should take start 6 indeed (again ;)), so I don't even bother putting a second choice here, or does anyone else disagree? :)

If we take 6:
It's always better to split the resources, because in the beginning our towns don't need that much tiles anyway. Though, I don't like tight city build, and that is inevitable if we split the wines.

If we decide to split, the settler could obviously go south and still be at a river and taking a BG and a wine. But could he also go east, or does the beach that is next to the water point towards a non-fresh water source? If so, that possibility is of course ruled out.
If we decide on a solo town, the place to go is obvious (SW).

The worker should irrigate the wine he is standing one immediately, because no matter what we choose that tile will always be in the first city square. Our scout should head west, to reveal what this area has to offer next to these lovely wines.

But hey, that's just my $0.04 :)

Everything AutomatedTeller says is correct. Always go max science in the beginning unless you are planning on spending 50 turns researching the tech.

An example: alphabet costs 150 beakers at the start. If we made e.g. 3 commerce a turn it would show 50 turns left whether we put 1, 2 or all 3 of our commerce into science spending. However, once we build a road our commerce increases to 4 which of course decreases the number of turns left if we go 100% science. And when we meet civs which have discovered alphabet it will get cheaper for us and again the number of turns left decreases. This is why it's important to get contacts early on.

When you get a tech from a hut I believe you always get the cheapest one that you are not researching at the time. In our case ceremonial burial is the cheapest one so if we started researching alphabet (150 beakers) and got a tech from a hut it would be CM (60 beakers). If we started researching CM we would get the second cheapest tech which is warrior code (90 beakers).

Do we lose all research immediately. or only into the new turn? If it doesn't change over the turn, is it possible to switch just before popping the hut and then switching back without loosing research? You don't immediately loose the research fi you don't close the advisor screen.

Since it seems like #6 is the one we all want I'll upload the save so we can finally get started.

Based on what we see now I would definately go one tile south with the settler and found the capital there.

But then comes an important question: which is more important to us now... shields or food? Irrigating the wine would give us 3 food, 0 shields and 2 gold. Mining the bonus grassland would give us 2 food, 2 shields and 2 gold (with a road). We definately want to build a scout or two asap and therefore it might actually be better to emphasize shields rather than food in the very beginning. Remember, the wine won't give us extra food in despotism until we irrigate it.

I mostly agree with Twix. I think the opening moves are:
1) Scout -> first: 1 tile SW; second: depends on what he sees from the hill. His view will help us decide whether to put one town or two on the three wines.

2) Worker begins irrigation immediately. I'm inclined to emphasize food over shields at this point. I'd like to pop another worker pretty quickly.

3) Settler's destination depends on what the scout sees and whether we want to emphasize food or shields. The hill offers a defensive bonus (right?), but I'm inclined not to build on it because I don't plan on letting anyone get that close.

I'm inclined to emphasize food over shields at this point.

That was my first thought too but then again we are expansionist. The only good thing about that are the scouts which we need to get out asap or they will do no good to us. The more we wait the less chance there is of getting something useful from goody huts. If we empasize food first we might pretty much waste the advantage that being expansionist gives us in the beginning.

I'd like to pop another worker pretty quickly.

In this situation building another worker would be pretty low in my build order in the capital. I would build one or two scouts, one or two warriors for military police (and defence) and then probably a settler. Also remember that barbarians are on restless so we need to protect all settlers we send out into the fog.

Since you guys have already discussed irrigating the wines right off the bat... what are you going to do with the settler? And will you move the scout or settler first?

@ Salarakas: I was not very clear. I do want to get a worker (probably) before the next settler, but one or two scouts and at least one warrior would be first. I still think that food comes before shields at this point. I don't think the food is wasted. It may slow us down a turn or two in getting that first additional scout out, but scouts are two-move units, right? So he'll be moving twice as fast as non-exp units. I guess the bottom line is that I think creating citizens faster will make up for a short-term shield loss. I may be wrong. What say you emphasize shields and I'll emphasize food for the first 10 turns? Then we can compare notes. Isn't that what this is about?

@ scoutsout: I think scout moves first. Get him up on that hill to the SW for visibility. I don't know if it will affect which direction we send Settler, but it might.

Where are we on research plans?

@ scoutsout: I think scout moves first. Get him up on that hill to the SW for visibility. I don't know if it will affect which direction we send Settler, but it might.Fair enough. But let me see if I can make my point with a little "Socratic Method": What type(s) of terrain are hardly worth worker turns in despotism? What's the fastest way to work a hill in Despotism? You're going to move the settler anyway... do you Risk a wasted scout move? ... or... Risk a wasted settler move?Bear in mind, there actually is a difference between a calculated risk and a stupid gamble. :D
Where are we on research plans?With all that riverside and lux commerce... It's high time you guys gave the ol' Republic Slingshot a try at this level.

Fair enough. But let me see if I can make my point with a little "Socratic Method":
1. What type(s) of terrain are hardly worth worker turns in despotism?
I'll go with hills and mountains.

2. What's the fastest way to work a hill in Despotism?
Build a city on it.


3. You're going to move the settler anyway... do you
a) Risk a wasted scout move? ... or...
b) Risk a wasted settler move?
Under these circumstances, I'd say scout. Here's why: Every turn that the settler does not build a city is a one-turn setback for the entire empire. Every citizen, scrap of food, gold piece, shield, horseman, sword and worker that we will ever produce is delayed by one turn for every one turn delay in building this first city. So in this case, I'd prioritize my settler's move as more valuable than the scout's.

One of my first reactions to this start was to send the settler SW onto the hill to settle. On further reflection, I think we send the scout up first. If the scout goes up and we discover another lux or a resource, say 1 S and 1 SE of current position, it may make more sense to send the settler 1 S to settle, thus (possibly) capturing two luxes in the first nine squares. If we send the settler up and make the same discovery, we have to choose between (a) settling on the hill and capturing three of the same lux (wine); or (b) capturing two luxes.

The odds of us not being able to capture the other two wines that we can see are pretty slim. There's nothing wrong with having two furs, but we won't be able to trade them for a while. So for the time being, their value is: +1 food, +1 commerce, + happiness. And we don't get any happiness out of the second or third wine.

Yes, I know that putting the settler up there is a calculated risk (that I'll miss something), but I don't think putting the scout up there qualifies as a stupid gamble. If I'm wrong, I'm hoping you'll explain why.

With all that riverside and lux commerce... It's high time you guys gave the ol' Republic Slingshot a try at this level.

I'm all for it.

[Edited: I was unable to make my list look quite as nice as scoutsout's, so there may be some slight differences.]

It's always better to split the resources, because in the beginning our towns don't need that much tiles anyway. Though, I don't like tight city build, and that is inevitable if we split the wines.

I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, so bear with me.

What I hear you say is that there is some reason to split the wines between two cities.

I don't think so.

Once you have a luxury connected to your capital, all the cities that are connected to the capital benefit from that luxury. So one wine would be enough to make citizens happy throughout the empire.

Now if by resources you meant BGs and plains, etc, you are correct. Improve what you can work and work what you have improved.

[Edited: I was unable to make my list look quite as nice as scoutsout's, so there may be some slight differences.]

What scoutsout did was nest one LIST inside another LIST, like so:
(LIST)
point 1
point 2
(LIST)
point 2A
point 2B
(/LIST)
point 3
point 4
(/LIST)
The indentation and the change of bullet points is automatic; just part of the LIST command.

Here's what I suggest we do with the worker:
1. Irrigate the wine he is standing on (4 turns)
2. Build a road (3 turns)
3. Move 1SE to the bonus grassland and mine it (1+6 turns)
4. Road the BG (3 turns)
5. Move 2NW to another wine square and irrigate and road (1+4+3 turns)
6. Either do the same for the third wine (1+4+3 turns) or mine and road a second bonus grassland (1+6+3)

As for the city:
1. Move the settler first, either 1SW (hill) or 1S (grassland)
2. Even though our worker is irrigating the wine I would work the bonus grassland tile for another shield. This way we could get a second scout out in turn 6 instead of turn 11(?).
3. After that I would start working on the now irrigated wines. Once the city grows to size 2 I think we need to work the bonus grassland for some shields.

What about a granary? If we worked all the irrigated wines we could get a city with +5 food and (most likely) at least 8 shields a turn. With a granary this would make a great 4-turn settler factory. I'd say we definately want to build a granary but not before we get another scout and a couple of defenders out and founded a second city.

As you may be able to tell, I have a certain sft spot in my heart for the socratic method; taking one of Socrates' favourite students' name as my screen name:D
What type(s) of terrain are hardly worth worker turns in despotism? What's the fastest way to work a hill in Despotism? You're going to move the settler anyway... do you Risk a wasted scout move? ... or... Risk a wasted settler move?


jungles and marshes take forever to clear and it would seem your worker could be better used doing other things so I'd put those terrain types as wastes of worker moves under despotism. The Time/reward trade-off for mountains isn't one I think you should take and generally, I agree with Abra about hills as well (although I think there are limited situations that call for a mine on a hill)
Yes, fastest way would have to be build on it
I also vaue worker moves in the early game so if I had to choose, I'd risk wasting the scout move. With this start, the scout will lose its movement after crossing the river but will reveal more total squares by moving to the hill first than if it moved onto the NW grapes and then crossed. It will also get its 2 turns of movement in an EDIT:westerly direction next turn. Most importantly, we wil have more information to make better decesions regarding our worker and settler.


I also agree with Sal on worker and settler moves. I think we will end up on the hill but that decesion should be made after we see a bit of what is around.
Also, I think that the main value of those grapes is the possibility of a strong settler pump, so a granary will be in order. I think we will have to see what develops to exactly determine the builds but another scout is a must and security is a priority as well.

The save is posted so let's make sure we keep notes so we can figure out the causes of the differences between our starts once we post them:)

With this start, the scout will lose its movement after crossing the river

What do you mean? If the scout moves 1W or 1S it will still have one move left. Personally I would probably go 1S and then 1SW on top of that hill. After that I'd probably move the settler 1S as the hills can make this city a real powerhouse once we get out of despotism. It could probably churn out well over 20 shields in size 12 which would mean three turn knights and possible even cossacks for our conquering mission. We should have enough cities by that time too to get settlers out even without using the capital as a settler-pump.

Really? I though the scout would lose its movement after it crossed the river like other units on a road. I haven't played much with expansionist civs. I stand corrected:)

I played my 10 turns, don't look before you have played yours :)

Turn 0 - 4000BC
-Move scout 1S and 1SW. Wow, that's some nice land. Lot's of bonus grassland, a river, three wines, hills... The only not-so-good thing is the jungle in the south.
-Decide to move the settler 1S
-Start irrigating the wine.

Turn 1 - 3950BC
-Found Moscow, set the citizen on top of a BG next to a river. Growth in 10, scout in 5. Start max science run on alphabet (38 turns)
-Where to move the scout? We could easily pop that hut when our borders expand and move the scout south instead. Then again, the jungle would slow our scout down. Decide to pop the hut and get.. a settler :o I don't think I've ever got a settler in emperor before.
-Move the settler north as we want it next to a river

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4143/phaedo01v23950bcco7.th.jpg (http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phaedo01v23950bcco7.jpg)

Turn 2 - 3900BC
-Found St. Petersburg 3 NW of Moscow. It reveals a wheat which is unfortunately one tile away from the fat cross of St. Petersburg. Start a scout (5 turns), followed by a worker (5 turns). This way we get another scout out fast and then a worker the same turn St. Petersburg grows to size 2.
-Move the scout 2N on top of the mountain and spot another hut.

Turn 3 - 3850BC
-Pop the hut and get ceremonial burial. Spot another wheat :o Could this start be any better?

Turn 4 - 3800BC
-Irrigation ready, start roading. Scout moves north, spot some ivory!
-Think about using the irrigated wines... It's either growth in 7 and scout in 2 or growth in 5 and scout in 4. Decice to keep working on the bonus grassland.

Turn 5 - 3750BC
-Scout 1E. Some desert north of our core.

Turn 6 - 3700BC
-Moscow scout->warrior. Change the citizen to the irrigated wines for faster growth.
-Scouting reveals a very nice coastal spot for our next(?) town.

Turn 7 - 3650BC
-St. Petersburg scout->worker
-We have three scouts now, that should be enough.
-Move the worker 1SE on top of a BG

Turn 8 - 3600BC
-Meet a redlined Dutch warrior SE of Moscow. A good reminder, we need to watch out for barbarians here.
-The Dutch are up alphabet and down bronze working and ceremonial burial. We are 14 turns away from alphabet and a straight 1to1 trade won't work so I won't do any trading yet.
-Start mining the BG
-Moscow is 4 food short of size 2. I change the citizen on top of the BG again so we don't waste any food and get a couple of extra shields in the process too.

Turn 9 - 3550BC
-Moscow grows to size 2. As we have wines we don't need to touch the lux slider yet.

Turn 10 - 3500BC
-Moscow's borders expand.


Notes:
-We've been damn lucky so far. Excellent land around us, a free settler, a free tech, plenty of bonus grassland, 2 wheats in sight, ivory close to us...
-Moscow will complete a warrior and St. Petersburg a worker next turn. I would set both to warriors.
-Trading with the Dutch is not wise yet. Where do we want to go once alphabet is ready (10 turns left)?

I made a dotmap for our future cities. I'm not sure where we would want the next city as there are at least three excellent locations. Expanding towards the Dutch first would make sense so the one next to the river might be a good choice. The one west of Moscow would have three BGs and could make troops fast.

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/3403/phaedo01v2dotmapqm7.th.jpg (http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phaedo01v2dotmapqm7.jpg)

Edit: it looks like west is a dead-end so I stopped exploring there. Might have been a mistake, not sure.

Once you have a luxury connected to your capital, all the cities that are connected to the capital benefit from that luxury. So one wine would be enough to make citizens happy throughout the empire.


Yes, but the wines also have a +food function.

Also, I agree that this position has good potential to be a settler pump. I think we need to get at least one and maybe two more cities founded, then look to build a granary for that.

Like Phaedo, I thought that the scout would lose its move crossing the river. In that case, I'd move the scout 1S, 1SW.

Yes, but the wines also have a +food function.

Yes, that was my point. All 3 wine-squares will have that extra food, and that will go wasted if we build our capital SW in stead of S. For in the early game, we don't need more than 2 or 3 tiles each city (certainly a Settler Factory won't). I think it's best to build our first city S and our second city next to the other 2 wines. That way, we will benefit from the food bonus of all the wines and can pump out settlers very quickly.

Two questions:
- Am I correct in my assumption that our research isn't wasted if we switch back in the same turn that the GH is popped?
- And have we reached concensus about our science path yet? I think most people are in favor of the Republic Slingshot at max research. Is this now certain?
(I can cope with that now, you guys have gained me over. ;) )

I agree completely with Sarakas' worker turns as well as his micromanagement.

I also think we should put up a granary in both towns ASAP, but not after some military (police and settler escort) and some scouts. My build order would be:

Warrior
Scout
Warrior
Scout
Granary

Am I correct in my assumption that our research isn't wasted if we switch back in the same turn that the GH is popped?

I've just ran a quick test scenario, and that is not the case. Sorry if I misled you; this would only be the case with zero science or at the beginning of research.

I saw a lot of really good discussion on the opening moves on the last page. :thumbsup:

If I may make a suggestion: Most SGs start with an opening set of 20 turns... since many of those turns involve hitting <Enter> because there isn't anything to do. If you guys are going to compare starts and take one that is 'best', I suggest you play 20 so that the starts will be a little more distinguishable. Just my $0.02.

Ok, I've played mine. I'm going to try to post this with spoiler tags, with the picture hosted on Imageshack.

4000 BC: 1
Scout 1 South – (now that I know he doesn’t lose his other move, this makes more sense). I see forests or jungles to the south, but can’t tell which.
Scout 1 SW – up on the hill, spot GH.

Settler 1 South – From this position, Moscow will eventually be able to work all three wines, tobacco, and BGs

Worker – begins irrigation

3950 BC: 2
Scout 2 NW to pop GH – Ceremonial Burial.
Found Moscow – start warrior (5) – Alphabet max (38)

3900 BC: 3
Scout 1 NW, 1W lots of grassland and a wheat some distance from Moscow
Gold 10
Alpha in 37
Warrior in 5

3850 BC: 4
Scout 1 NW, spot GH
Change build in Moscow to Temple
Scout 1 N, pop GH – Warrior Code
Switch back to Warrior

3800 BC: 5
Finish irrigating first wines, begin road
Keep Moscow citizen working BG to get warrior in 2
Scout 1 NE, 1 E – more hills, a mountain, some wheat
Alpha in 35
Warrior in 2
Moscow grows in 7

3750 BC: 6
Scout 1 SE onto the mountain – I see desert to the north, work to the north is done, time to head south

3700 BC: 7
Warrior done, move 1 SE
Begin Scout
Rename Scout to Scout 001
Scout 001 moves 1 SE

3650 BC: 8
Road complete
Worker 1 SE to BG
Warrior 1 E onto hill – lots of coastline here
Scout 001 decides to take one more peek off the hill 1 to the N – see desert and coast

3600 BC: 9
Warrior (Warrior 001) 1 S onto hill – jungle & bananas to the south
Moscow still working BG for shields
Scout in 3
Moscow grows in 3
Alphabet in 31
Gold 10 (+0)
Worker begins mine on BG
Scout 1 SW, 1 S (I don’t like recrossing ground like this, but I need to explore south to make some contacts. I don’t think there is anyone to the north)

3550: 10
Dutch warrior pops out of the fog
The Dutch have the Alphabet – CA2 tells me I have gathered 32 beakers towards that already
The Dutch have no other techs to offer, and they only have 10 gold. Their military outnumbers us, and they want Bronze working & warrior code for Alpha. They’ll offer us 10 gold for any tech we currently have. No thanks. I’ll see if I can locate other civs.
Warrior begins heading back to Moscow.
Scout 2 S – he’s now due west of Moscow.
Moscow grows: 2
Alphabet: 27
Scout: 2

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/5483/3550bcfirstcontactdutchrr7.th.jpg (http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3550bcfirstcontactdutchrr7.jpg)


Edit: Paint Shop Pro is acting up -- no screenshot available yet.

Never mind. I thought I had properly uploaded a screenshot to Imageshack. Apparently not.


Edit: Ok. Somehow, I got it put into my previous post . . .

Here are my first 10 turns :D:

Turn 0 (4000 BC):
Worker -> Irrigates wines he's standing on.
Scout -> West. He is looking for a site to place our next city. Then he moves SW where he pops the hut. It reveals maps of the area... (maybe I should've waited to pop it after my settler built Moscow, because the things you guys got from the GH were defenitely more valuable).
Settler -> South (the best thing is to split those wines in two cities).

Turn 1 (3950 BC):
Settler -> Builds Moscow. A scout will be built there, which is a gamble because a barbarian attack would this way be lethal in the next few turns.
Scout -> NW (towards other GH) + W (Movement turns towards GH will be the same, but we uncover some dark stop on the road this way).
Our wisemen are given orders to focus on Alphabet. The Republic Slingshot is set in motion. I set the reseach slider at 100% and I'm curious as when I should lower it.

Turn 2 (3900 BC):
Scout -> N + NW and pops hut. Again maps of the region which reveal some ivory. Twice no settler and no tech, kind of dissapointing.
Alphabet is due in 37 turns.

Turn 3 (3850 BC):
Scout -> 2N
Moscow: growth in 8, scout in 3. Worker will finish the irrigation next turn.

Turn 4 (3800 BC):
Worker -> begins roading irrigated wines.
Scout -> N (wherever it moves, it's always allowed to move just once). We have now explored the northwestern side of our continent and will begin the northside ASAP.
Moscow: I decide to work the BG a bit more: if I change to the irrigated wines city growth will be in 5 in stead of 7 turns and the scout will be in 4 i.s.o. 2. I value quicker production of the scout higher than a quicker city growth for the moment.

Turn 5 (3750 BC):
Scout -> East (reveals desert).
Moscow: Not is a good time to make the switch. Growth is now in 4 i.s.o. 6 and the scout is in 2 iso 1. Alphabet is researched in 27 turns.

Turn 6 (3700 BC):
Scout - SE (only option really)
Worker will finish road in 1 turn.

Turn 7 (3650 BC):
Worker finishes road and begins travelling towards BG NE of Moscow. The road brings wines into Moscow, happiness among the citizens :).
Moscow: creates Scout2 -> SE-E on hill he spots a river delta. Moscow will build a warrior for the necessary defence.
Scout 1-> E-SE.

Turn 8 (3600 BC):
Worker begins mine.
S2 -> S on top of other hill.
S1 -> 2SE (northern side is almost totally explored as well).

Turn 9 (3550 BC):
S2 -> S-SW and sees barb warrior with 1 HP left, something has happened here earlier. After reading your reports it's obvious that some Dutch warriors have failed to kill the barbs) I doubt it if my second scout will live through the next round. :(

Unlucky again (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/100853/death1.JPG)

Turn 10 (3500 BC):
S2 is slaughtered by them warriors (min 2).
Moscow: Warrior is due in 3 turns, hopefully in time to retain those nasty barbs.

Overview (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/100853/overview3500.JPG)

*Alphabet is researched in 18 turns.
*Moscow (size 2): growth in 6 and Warrior in 3.
*Treasury is 10 gold (+0 gpt). Income is 6 gpt.

My turnset wasn't that great :(. The absence of some luck had a great deal in that (no contact with the Dutch, no tech or settler from GH). But oh well, I gave it me best shot.

I think that Salarakas' turnset was optimal as he gained two of the most valuable things from the GH's (settler + tech). I got only maps twice, so that's just (partially) unlucky.

It seems that we are not playing the same number of turns. I think I played 11 (or even 12?), Aabraxan 10 and Twixmeistah 11. Not a big deal though.

I just read THIS (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=93244) thread and it explains why we got different things from the first hut.

Aabraxan didn't get a settler because he popped the hut before founding the city (i.e. had a settler unit already). This meant that the game made a re-roll and gave a tech instead.

Not sure why Twixmeistah got maps and not a tech like Aabraxan though. I'm pretty sure you can get techs from huts even with no cities founded yet.

It looks like Salarakas and Twixmeistah called 4000 BC "turn zero," while I called it "turn one." Not a problem, though. That's easy to straighten out. While we're still waiting for Phaedo and Allanc to play and post, here's what I see so far.

First, I think Salarakas' opening 12 is clearly better than my opening 10. Getting that settler was huge. I wish I'd thought about building Moscow before popping the hut. I'll know better next time.

Second, GH items: I think I got better GH items than Twixmeistah, but not as good as Salarakas. (Did I mention that getting the settler was huge?) If you look at the turnsets, I popped the two huts on different turns than Twix. So the RNG generated different numbers.

Third, exploration: I notice that both Salarakas and Twixmeistah both got more of the northern expanse explored than I did, though. I didn't even get the ivory unconvered. Then again, I didn't uncover the whole desert, either.

Finally, I notice that my research is slow compared to Twixmeistah. He says at 3750 BC that he'll have Alphabet in 27 turns. By my calcuations, I don't hit that until 3550 BC. In other words, at 3750 BC, I've got Alphabet in 31 turns. I'm not sure why those are different. Our worker turns appear to be the same and our citizens are both working the BG for shields. Anybody else see any differences between 4000 BC and 3750 BC. Four turns (31 vs. 27) seems to be a big difference for a 5 turn set. I think this bears some examination.

Finally, I notice that my research is slow compared to Twixmeistah. He says at 3750 BC that he'll have Alphabet in 27 turns. By my calcuations, I don't hit that until 3550 BC. In other words, at 3750 BC, I've got Alphabet in 31 turns. I'm not sure why those are different. Our worker turns appear to be the same and our citizens are both working the BG for shields. Anybody else see any differences between 4000 BC and 3750 BC. Four turns (31 vs. 27) seems to be a big difference for a 5 turn set. I think this bears some examination.

Twixmeistah said in his turn report that he changed the citizen to work the wine square instead of the bonus grassland. The wine square gives 2 gold even without a road, 1 more than the BG square.

And unto you, Salarakas, I say:

Doh! :wallbash:

I've played my turns I seem to have made similar dececions to Twix. I'll post after work. Nice work Sal!:goodjob:

I finished at 3500 too. I used the Victory Screen calcualtion of the turns. It seemed that 3500BC was a nice even number to end at. I seem to remember zerksees saying that turns shoud end on even numbers. Not really a big deal though.


Turn 0 (4000 BC):
Scout to west hill (1 move, I played before I was corrected by Sal). See the hut so switch to CB.
Settler to hill
Worker irrigates wine he’s on

Turn 1 (3950 BC):
Settler builds Moscow, the hut pops and we get WC. Start building Scout, set research to 100%, get
citizen working the BG.
The scout moves S to the mount and see jungle

Turn 2 (3900 BC):
Decide to see what's up north figuring the jungles will be a bit of a natural barrier for other civs
Move scout W then NW

Turn 3 (3850 BC):
Move Scout N twice and open up some land but that's it. (It is nice land though :))

Turn 4 (3800 BC):
Worker finishes the irrigation and starts laying the road.
Scout moves one west, sees the hut and pops it. We get 25 Gold.

Turn 5 (3750 BC):
Move the scout N twice again and see the ivory. If we could get the ToZ that would be really nice as we will be
warmongering

Turn 6 (3700 BC):
Build another scout and start a warrior.
S1 moves E to the hill. See the desert and a possibility of more land to the North and no tundra yet.
S2 moves to the tobacco. (looking to get on the southern hill)

Turn 7 (3650 BC):
Worker finishes road and moves to the BG
S1 moves NE to the other hill ot see what he can see.
S2 moves SE to the hill

Turn 8 (3600 BC):
Worker starts road and move the citizen to working the grapes (should have done this last turn but forgot. Sorry)
S1 moves NW thinking that could be more interesting than desert. It looked like the desert would make a bit of a
protrusion and sweep down to meet the coast E of Moscow. See the bit sticking out North and wonder if it might
not be a land bridge
S2 moves 2 East and sees a barb warrior. Count the squares and see that it can reach the capital before we build
the warrior, so I change the citizen back to working the BG and we will have the warrior before the barb can get to us.

Turn 9 (3550 BC):
S1 goes NW and think I found a land bridge.
S2 goes E and S to get away from the warrior and start his trek across the jungle. Barb gets lost in the fog but
Moscow's defense is as secure as I can make it.

Turn 10 (3500 BC):
S1 moves NW again and sees theere is no bridge just a bunch of wasted turns.
S2 moves SW again putting distance between him and possible barbs while still crossing the desert.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/PhaedoSG1st101.jpg
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/PhaedoSG1st102.jpg

All and all I didn't hink I did too badly although I played a number of days ago and after I saw Sal's start mine is irrelevant. That extra settler trumps pretty much everything I did and seeing the Barb put my growth behind so This start is out.
In retrospect, I'm not too happy with my scout moves. Looking for that land bridge was a waste. Opening up as much of teh black as possible should have been my priority as we are looking for huts.

I havent looked closely at any of the other saves yet.



We seem to have 4 plyers in this. Don't know if Alac is still with us. As the premise for the thread was to have patience, I think we should wait. I suppose we could still discuss things in spoiler mode. Let's give him until the 8th and if we don't hear from him we'll proceed without him. If that happens I think we could take on one more player but four should be enough for now. We have some good discussion and have had some good lurker comments to keep us busy.:)

On the roster, I agree. Give Allanc until the 8th and open up the roster for 1 more if he doesn't show.

I realize that this isn't a competition to see who played the best start, but we are going to have to rank these to choose which point to play from next. So let me be the first to say that my start was the worst so far. My goodie huts produced decent things, but I stayed on the BG the whole time emphasizing shields without ever switching our citizen to the grapes to speed growth and research. Critical mistake on my part. I just realized that imageshack chopped off the western edge of my screenshot, but I never got the ivory uncovered. If this were a solo game, I'd go ahead and play mine out because I do think it could be salvaged (and because I like to play games out to learn from my mistakes). That said, I'd say Sal's opening was the best so far. At this stage of the game, the settler is the best thing he could have gotten, IMO. I haven't had time to really analyze Phaedo's and Twixmeistah's plays, except to determine that they both uncovered the ivory that I missed..

With the wheat and ivory to the north, I'd say we need to plan for our empire to grow in that direction.

Then again, we might want to pick some other save as the extra settler might make this easier than we'd want. Having two cities on turn 3 or 4 feels a bit like cheating.

Without a doubt the extra settler helps but you did a great job of opening up the board as well. Despite the luck, I feel your movement choices were better Sal:goodjob:
But you are right. This isn't a challenge to win, it is a challenge to learn, so perhaps your excellent start shouldn't be used:sad: (I'm not convinced of this though.:))
I think mine shouldn't be used because of the early Barb sighting. I stand by decesion for MMing but it doesn't add to any better knowlege of playing the game. However, if you can see a flaw in my reasoning, please point it out!

so it might be more helpful to choose between Abra's and Twix's saves. Regardless which save we play from, it would be nice to assess relative strengths and weaknesses of the different starts (for the education aspect)

In await of Allancs' turnset, I decided to compare some stats of the different games, to see which one is best to play further. Because Sal finished one turn before and Aab one turn after 3500 BC, comparisons were a bit troublesome. The most figures you see next will be corrected to the year 3500 BC.


Production/Building Order:

Sal: Scout (3700) - Warrior (3400) // St. Pete: Scout (3650) - Worker (3400)
Aab: Warrior (3700) - Scout (3450)
Twix: Scout (3650) - Warrior (3350)
Phae: Scout (3700) - Scout/Warrior (3350)

- The year is the number the unit was finished or will be finished.
- Phaedo's second build was unclear. In his story he exclaims that he will create a warrior, but in his last screenie Moscow seems to build a scout.

Military:
So everybody has their basic units (scout + worker) plus the unit that he built first. This results in a total of 3 units. Sal though has one more (St. Petersburg was able to creat another scout) and Twix has one unit less (his second scout was murdered by barbarians).

Goodie Hut Luck:
Sal: Settler + Ceremonial Burial.
Aab: CB + Warrior Code.
Twix: Maps + Maps.
Phae: WC + 25 gold.

It is obvious that Sal has had the most advantagese from popping the huts, and the question is of course if these advantages are worth playing. I don't think so, learning > winning at this point. Aab has had some luck as well, and I think Twix was rather unlucky (maybe also plain dumb for popping the first hut in Turn 0 ;)). Techs are very important at this stage.

Research:
Sal: Alphabet in 11 turns.
Aab: Alph in 26.
Twix: A in 18.
Phae: A in 19.

In this area, there are some major differences. Of course Sals' quick research is due to St. Pete, but Aab is really behind on Twix and Phae. So Twix and Phae have the advantage here.

City Growth:
Sal: Moscow (size 2) grows in 7 turns // St. Pete (1) grows in 2.
Aab: Mos (1) in 1.
Twix: Mos (2) in 6.
Phae: Mos (2) in 7.

Twix has the most growth by a slight margin and Aab is still at size 1 with Moscow. In Sals' and Phae's game Moscow is the same size.

Territory Explored:
Sal: 207- squares revealed (including Desert tiles near Netherlands)
Aab: 99+ (no ivory, no hills north, desert half, BG north half,)
Twix: 160
Phae: 127

Due to his third scout Sal managed to explore quite a lot. Twix did reasonably well to. The -symbol represents the one turn that Sal has had more to explore, so actually he has a smaller number of tiles explored. The opposite is true for Aab, who actually has one more turn to explore.

Score and Contact:
Sal: 92- (and contact w/Dutch)
Aab: 46+ (and contact w/Dutch
Twix: 47
Phae: 47

Speaks for itself...

Aftermath:
Overall, I think that Aab's game is not the best one to continue with. He is back on Reseach, Explored terrain and City growth. He compensated this only by a slightly quicker production, but also with contact with the Dutch. Twix has some small advantages over Phaedo (territory, research and growth) but hasn't had the right benefits from the goodie huts and lost a scout, so there is a choice to make. Sal is of course has the best game in any gameplay area, and his game might even be too good to play further.


If anyone has spotted an error, let it know so I can update the scheme. I think at the hand of these stats we can make a decision as which game to continue with. Please give your opinions on the game we should proceed with.

Good analysis :goodjob:

I think Aabraxan's decision to get a warrior first was not a good one and it shows already in the beginning of the game. Otherwise the differences aren't that big and it was mainly luck (huts) that affected the outcome. If I had to make a choice now I'd probably go with Phaedo's save mainly because of getting warrior code from a hut. The other opening turns aren't bad at all either so if you guys want Twix's or Aabraxan's save that's fine with me.

Nice work, Twix!

I agree that my decision to build a warrior first was not a good one. I think that the place this really shows up is in the amount of territory uncovered. Assuming 10 turns to build a warrior, that means that the scout could have traveled as much as 20 tiles by the time my warrior was done. Even if I were to play out my last turn, there's just no way that I could uncover as much territory as Phae, who uncovered the next smallest amount of area. It's not even close.

I also think that there are other important differences to point out here. To my mind, the really remarkable differences were in pop growth and research. I thought I remembered a discussion earlier as to whether to emphasize food or shields earlier. So I put my citizen on the BG in an attempt to maximize shields. (That's unusual for me, as I almost always emphasize food in the early game.) The result was that I also lost out on the food and trade generated by the wines. I should have put the citizen on the wine in an attempt to get that extra citizen faster. Look at the numbers (I've intentionally omitted Salarakas in this analysis because he's got an extra city in the equation):

Population: I'm the last one with Moscow at size 1, and everyone else is within 7 turns of going to size 3.

Research: I'm seven turns behind Phaedo. We only played ten turns and I've already lost 7 turns!

Aftermath:
Clearly, the Regent-level games that I've played simply did not challenge me enough to really worry about MMing and it showed.

At this stage, I'd say that Sal's game is probably too good to go on with, while mine is not good enough. (Salarakas is being too kind). Even though this is a learning game, let's not make it unnecessarily difficult. I'm not sure we can make up for my research deficit if we really want to pull off the republic slingshot.

I'd have to say let's go with Phae's game. He popped WC, while Twix got a map. Maps are useful, but we've got scouts.

So I put my citizen on the BG in an attempt to maximize shields.

I did so too and I still think that getting the second scout out asap was the right choice even if it meant a slower growth and research. I, however, changed the citizen to work the wine right after the scout was finished so I didn't slow us down too much. But these are all personal choices, there's no right or wrong here. If you had built a scout instead of a warrior and changed the citizen to work the wine your start might be the best, who knows.

I vote for Phaedo's game

His and my game are pretty equal, though the fact that he has more profitable things out of the GHs and that I lost a scout makes the difference for me. For me, our two games were the only options; Aab's game was not good enough (sorry ;)) and Sals' was way too good. :P

I also feel that the format we use is right. I think we should play the next 10 turns a part as well, and compare afterwards. The only downside is that the pace of this SG will become very slow indeed. But we didn't sign up for a fast-paced game anyhow :).

Thanks Twix that was great!:goodjob:

Sorry for the confusion, I took notes on paper and did the write up a couple of days later. I think after realizing that a warrior and scout get built in the same time, I must have switched back to a scout thinking I could switch to a warrior if needed. I did switch the citizen to BG early in anticipation which I think accounts for the difference in both growth and research between Twix's and my saves. I have a bit of a learning curve with this Sg thing but I think I have a workable system now (after playing my CBob SG turns)

I was quite unhappy with my scout moves and the difference with Twix's save in uncovered land shows that. All those 1 square moves in the hills in the north were just a waste and poor decesion making. :cringe:

Twix definately beats my save as far as gameplay goes (perhaps with the exception of the hut pop before the city;) ). Unfortunately he did have bad luck with the huts. :sad:

So suprisingly, I guess I'd have to vote to use the phaedo save too. Sal should get bigs props though for a great turn set:clap: . I just feel (like the rest of you) that he did too well.

Alla has about one more day to weigh in, otherwise we can stop putting these conversations in spoilers.

All that being said, I guess it's time to discuss our next moves. I think it could be valuable for us to each take another 10 turns and compare. After that, it will probably be best to stick to one. I suggest we use the Victory screen calculation of turns. When the screen says turn 20 we stop. It's a little easier with a base 10 set.

The barbs haven't seemed to materialized in the phaedo save but I think it is probably best to switch the scout build to a warrior anyway. Obviously the dutch are out there and un undefended city isn't overly wise. I would think that we need a settler asap too, so getting dot maps for city placement is a good idea.

I like the format too. I also think there is value in continuing it for a while. I said in my last post that we shold continue it for one more turn set but a couple more would be fine with me.

My only worry is that as the game progresses, we may get spoiler info from people's turn sets we don't use. I suppose if we settle on a gameplan before we play this won't be too much of a problem and it may be out weighed by the benefit of comparative analysis.

What do you guys think?

Do you players see a possible settler factory? Say 'yes' if you think it would be a 5 turn one. I think you all can figure this out yourselves.

As for game picking, I'll lurk and leave it to you. So good luck!

I think doing another 10 turns like this is OK but after that I'd prefer to go for the usual succession game thing. The opening turns aren't all that interesting (although very important!) and with this pace it will take ages before the fun part starts :lol:

Do you players see a possible settler factory?

Yes indeed. I'd probably go for a 4 turn one (by using all the three wines) as we have a couple of wheats close by and could churn out workers from those cities if necessery. Other core cities could concentrate on building mostly troops. But it will take a while to get the factory going as we need a couple of cities first before I would start building the granary. If there were no barbarians I might start building the granary sooner but now I feel we need a couple of cities producing archers/spearmen too

Well it looks like it is just the four of us. Off we go then.

What's next? I think there are a couple of things we should talk about.
First, what do we want to do with the Moscow build? Honestly, I'm torn. Part of me feels that we could use another scout (mostly because that first one is so far away in the north) but I think I'd go for the change to a warrior and get on a settler.

The worker is making a road (for the research benefit). what do we want to do with him once he finishes?

What do we want our scout movements to be? Obvoiusly the Northern scout is in a poor position. Should be boogie south asap or finish exploring the north (I think this is my preference as he is already there)?

In no particular order, here are some other topics we may want to discuss:

City placement. Here's a dot map with some thoughts on placement. It's based on Sal's map with some changes.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/Phaedo3500Dotmap.jpg

I didn't think Sal's second city was ideal but that's only because we know more and it's later in the game (I'd take and earlier city over the change of location any day:hmm: ). The green dots are options. I like the light green dot over the dark green one myself.

This whole map has pretty wide spacing but I think it does a pretty good job of utilizing the resources we can see. I'd be inclined to settle the blue dot first for the wheat, but knowing the Dutch are south of us, I'd choose yellow to expand our borders and it would be a productive city for building military.

And other issues:

As we want to be warmongers, I guess quick rushing the Dutch is an option (sorry Twix but your brethren seem to be first on the death list:ar15: ). I'm not at all good at early rushing so I don't have much input as to how it could be done but I can only see advantages of wiping out an opponent early.

We all went for Alph. Have we decided to try for some phil gambit or was that primarily for the dinghies? What kind of units do we want to develop for our attack force? When do we want to go to war and how do we want to go about the war? I assume the answers to these questions will affect our research choices.

Trading. I don't think we want to trade with only one civ. If something happens in the next ten turns, I suggest we trade as we see fit. There will be plenty of opportunuties to work on trading skills as the game progresses.

I guess that is all the things I can think of for the next 10 turns. However, it would be helpful to have an overall strategy for our game (mid to long range goals). If we plan to conquer the world, how do we plan to do it? Obviously we want a big military. I am happy with Republic as a government for quite a while (especially as I am in Commandobob's AW game which will give me practice with the Monarcy to Communism route). Do we want to be friendly, get what we can out of our neighbours and then declare war? Do we want to be agressive on the front end? How important is our reputatuion? Are there any conditions we want before we declare war? Do we want to try to stay ahead on research or overwhelm them with units(I'm thinking unit upkeep could cut into our research budget)?

I'll have to go back and take a look at your save before I can really discuss the build order. That said, I'd say leave the current scout in the north to finish exploring before moving him south to explore there. IIRC, and looking at Twix'sw analysis, we can have another scout built before Scout 1 makes it to the fog to the south.

Worker moves -- I'd say move him north to the wines and begin irrigation, then roading. Once he finishes the road he's on, he can move to the wines due N of Moscow in one move and begin on the next turn. If we're going to use Moscow as a settler pump, which seems pretty reasonable with three wines and a BG, we need to go ahead and get the wine tiles irrigated and roaded.

City spacing -- the dots laid out by Phaedo look pretty good for overall placement, but I think the yellow and white dots are one tile too far. If we're going to use Moscow as a settler pump, it'll be a while before it grows to size 8, which is what it needs to work all of its available tiles in a CxxC pattern. I'd also settle red instead of blue first. You still get a wheat, like blue, but settling red puts Moscow almost directly between the only known threat, the Dutch, and our fledgling city. I also think you can irrigate the wheat at red faster, but I'm not entirely sure about that.

Warmongering -- I guess we could make an early rush on the Dutch, but I'm not inclined to do so just yet. We're still very, very early in the game, and I think expansion should be first priority. Yes, I still want to warmonger, but let's not be stupid. The Dutch are currently first on our hit list -- actually, they're currently alone on our hit list. However, remember that they're researching something and generating gold. Let's trade with them while we fill the known territory to the north and reach for the ivory. If we want to early rush the Dutch, I'd still say we need 4-6 cities before we can safely do so.

Reputation -- I'd say it's golden. We can warmonger without destroying our ability to trade. The Dutch start with Alpha, and are seafaring, so it's likely they've got curraghs out and have either made contact or will do so soon. Let's trade and see if we can keep the AI's bank accounts empty.

Research -- I think we've pretty well decided to go republic slingshot. I suggest beelining philosophy and using any monopolies that we can pick up to trade for the "war techs."

Government -- Another issue to put on the table: I think we've pretty well decided to go Republic. I ran some CA2 tests on another game last night. The game is monarch, continents, iroquios, sharing a continent with the English, Dutch and Russians. I pulled off the Republic slingshot and shifted to Republic asap. Naturally, I lost gold initially due to unit support, but I've straightened most of that out. Anyway, it's now the very early middle ages, I'm about to get knights, I've got about half of my continent conquered, and just traded for monarchy. I looked at CA2 to see what the difference to my treasury would be if I went monarchy -- in Republic, I was at +7 gpt; if I were to go Monarchy, I'd have been at +50 gpt! My point is, I think I went into Republic way too early and we should consider our timing on the switch. Despotism will serve us well for a while for its unit support.

BTW, Twix, will we be seeing updates to your Irresistible Iroquois anytime soon?

BTW, Twix, will we be seeing updates to your Irresistible Iroquois anytime soon?

I am working on it right at this moment ;). You can expect an update in a short while. After that is taken care of I will analyze our decisions in this game.

I don't think we have decesions yet;)
Maybe I misunderstood the previous posts but isn't yellow between us and the dutch? That was my reasoning for preferring it over the costal blue.

I agreee they're spaced fairly widely. Is CxxC the route togo? I have always been partial to CxxxC for the core myself. We have good land, so why not use it?

we will need the grapes worked. I haven't thought about it enough to decide to push those before mining the tile we are on, but my gut says, work the current tile and the others later.

As for research, we haven't decided on a republic slingshot at all. We have only decided to work alphabet and max research. If we are going for the republic slingshot, we are going to have to be incredibly disciplined to get it. That's not to say a phil jump isn't possible or even desirable, but is the Rep slingshot what we want to go for? I think this needs a bit more discussion.
Besides, the Republic slingshot means researching CoL before getting Phil.

Before we jump to hard goals, let's have a general idea of our strategy. How do we expect to win this thing?

I don't think we have decesions yet;)

Fair enough. I thought we had. Even if we had, we can always change our minds as circumstances change.

Maybe I misunderstood the previous posts but isn't yellow between us and the dutch? That was my reasoning for preferring it over the costal blue.

Yes, yellow is between us and the Dutch. The question, I guess, is whether we put the new city between us and the Dutch, or on the far side (red) where it's shielded from the Dutch. I leaned towards the latter because Moscow will be able to produce units faster. I guess my thinking was to protect the new city.

I agree they're spaced fairly widely. Is CxxC the route togo? I have always been partial to CxxxC for the core myself. We have good land, so why not use it?

I was shooting for CxxC. I always tend towards a denser empire, regardless of the game, it seems. They're easier top defend. I'm open to CxxxC in the core, though.

we will need the grapes worked. I haven't thought about it enough to decide to push those before mining the tile we are on, but my gut says, work the current tile and the others later.

Oops. I was apparently suffering from cranial rectitis. . . I somehow thought the worker had already mined the tile he's on. Let him finish his work before moving him. :blush:

As for research, we haven't decided on a republic slingshot at all. We have only decided to work alphabet and max research. If we are going for the republic slingshot, we are going to have to be incredibly disciplined to get it. That's not to say a phil jump isn't possible or even desirable, but is the Rep slingshot what we want to go for? I think this needs a bit more discussion.
Besides, the Republic slingshot means researching CoL before getting Phil.

Before we jump to hard goals, let's have a general idea of our strategy. How do we expect to win this thing?

Apologies. Sounds like I got ahead of everyone in thinking that we'd decided to go for Rep Slingshot. When we started on alpha at max, to my mind, the next logical step was that we were going for the slingshot. I know that we've got to get CoL before Phil. I also think it can be done, and I think we should go for it. I think it provides good trade opportunities along the way that will allow us to trade for some of the more war-oriented techs.

As you pointed out, we need to work those grapes. Those grapes are all on the river. That's good for gold and research.

I don't think your assumptions were bad Aabra, I just want to have a bit of discussion before we commit to them. The Republic slingshot I think is very doable (although it means maxing gold and perhaps sacrificing some shields or food along the way). I guess my question is whether that is our first priority? It could be, and I would feel good about it, I would just like to have a bit of an overarching plan and some reasons why the republic slingshot will advance that plan better than other options before we jump ahead. As we have committed to being warmongers (although fortuntely not AW:please: ), we may want to focus on military concerns before government.

Also, the dot map was for discussion. I think city placement is an area I can defiately improve upon. I took Sal's map as a base and threw out some ideas based on the extra info we gained. I feel there could be a lot of discussion about the placement and the relative value of cxxc vs. cxxxc. I am quite interested in the discussion. I also think it is somewhat goal dependent. [You know you're a Canadian when you qualify every statement you make;) ]. In this case, where we are planning to be agressive, the cxxc placement is a good option. I wasn't looking at it that way. Put together a dot map and let's discuss options:)

I don't have time to put together a dot map tonight, but I hope to be able to do so in the next day or two. I think one of the areas that we're differing on is whether we want to research the war techs or trade for them. You sound like you're leaning towards researching them, me towards trading for them. I know that I was one of the strong proponents of warmongering (& still am), so that may seem a little strange.

At any rate, two things come to mind: (1) at CxxxC, it's a very long time before our cities are working all tiles; and (2) defensive capability. Assuming that I understand roads and movement properly (and please tell me if I'm not): roads triple movement. That means at CxxxC, a 1-movement unit (warrior, sword) can get from C1 to C2 in one turn. At CxxC, that same unit can get from C1 to C2 and attack in one move.

That said, the more I've thought about it, the more I think we may want to go ahead and go CxxxC in the core. You're right about wanting larger area in the core.

I've also seen talk of some players setting up "camps" or temporary cities. They have no improvements, serve their purposes and are then abandoned. . .

I think doing another 10 turns like this is OK but after that I'd prefer to go for the usual succession game thing. The opening turns aren't all that interesting (although very important!) and with this pace it will take ages before the fun part starts :lol:

Do you see a possible settler factory?

Yes indeed. I'd probably go for a 4 turn one (by using all the three wines) as we have a couple of wheats close by and could churn out workers from those cities if necessery. Other core cities could concentrate on building mostly troops. But it will take a while to get the factory going as we need a couple of cities first before I would start building the granary. If there were no barbarians I might start building the granary sooner but now I feel we need a couple of cities producing archers/spearmen too

About this, 4 turns is not possible unless you switch governments or something. The maximum population to start a 4 turn factory is size 5 with 0 food. But that only allows you 2 citizens to work on mined BG. That means 5 spt for 1 turn. 7 for 2 turns. And maybe 9 on the last. So the max shields you can get is 28.

But if you do get an iron hill/mountain, mine it and you WILL be able to do a 4 turn one. But best right now is 5 turns.

As I understand movement, your one move unit will be able to cover three roaded squares. So in CxxC placement, a unit can move from one city to another in one turn (C>x1st move x>x 2nd move x>C 3rd move). You can't make it from one city to another in CxxxC. You could only move from one city to another one AND attack in CxC.

Having said all that, you are right that we wouldn't max out the used tiles for quite a while. I think CxxxC placement is looking down the road. With CxxC at the core, your cities would have 8 squares to work before they started sharing. I think it's reasonable to assume that these cities could get to size 12 but it would be difficult to get bigger. Now 12 is a pretty big city but bigger cities allow for more production once you get to the modern age. It is quite a while before this gets to be an issue which is why CxxC placement is a real option.

I just like CxxxC because it covers more territory. After your third ring of cities, they are all corrupt anyway so I end up close to a CxC placement. Usually I go CxxxC from my capital, then CxxC for the third ring, and after that I'm happy with CxC. I just found it frustrating when my core were my only truely productive cities and they maxed out at 12 pop. I think CxxC has a lot of value for war making though (which is why it is a discussion we ought to have). It would give more cities in a given area and thus allow for more unit support. The defense aspect I don't think is so important. If we need to shuffle troops between our core cities or fear loosing them, we are in trouble!
It is important once we get to that second ring though.

As I understand movement, your one move unit will be able to cover three roaded squares. So in CxxC placement, a unit can move from one city to another in one turn (C>x1st move x>x 2nd move x>C 3rd move). You can't make it from one city to another in CxxxC. You could only move from one city to another one AND attack in CxC.

Doh! You're right. I know that, honest I do . . . Just miscounted.

First, what do we want to do with the Moscow build?

Well, since we now know that there's not much unexplored area in the west and north we might go for a warrior. The northern scout can finish exploring the northern area and then concentrate on busting fog while the southern one could keep on looking for AI civs. Remember, scouts are dead if they finish their turn next to a barbarian unit and barbarians are on restless here.

The worker is making a road (for the research benefit). what do we want to do with him once he finishes?

Definately mine the BG. We don't get any shields from irrigated wines so we must mine the BG squares asap. Personally I would have built the mine before building the road as we have "enough" commerce coming in already but are lacking in the shields. After that I'd start irrigating another wine.

If we're going to use Moscow as a settler pump, which seems pretty reasonable with three wines and a BG

Make that three wines and five(!) BGs once the borders expand. Three wines give us +5 food and the BGs give us enough shields for a four turn settler factory once we have built a granary.


As we want to be warmongers, I guess quick rushing the Dutch is an option

I'd say no to this. We have no reason to go to war until there's no more land to fill with settlers. Quick expansion with small troop count is what we should aim for. Once we have run out of space we should build enough troops to feel comfortable going to war and then strike the closest AI which seems to be the Dutch.

Have we decided to try for some phil gambit or was that primarily for the dinghies?

The land around is so good that we have a good chance of succeeding in the gambit. However, we also need some military techs sooner than later so that we can build proper troops while preparing for war. We also don't want to change into republic too quickly or it will hurt us big time. We are planning on starting a war and we need a lot of troops for it. Troops cost a lot of money in republic so we would need some cities (size 7-12) and preferably some multiplier buildings (libraries, marketplaces) in our biggest cities. I'd probably go for iron working next to see where the iron is.

I didn't think Sal's second city was ideal

May I ask why? It was three tiles from the capital (CxxC), next to a river (free aqueduct), could use the wines for faster growth if the capital didn't need them for some reason, had two or three BGs in its fat cross, some forests from chopping, not a single bad square (apart from the mountain), I only had to waste one settler move to get there... The only other option for the city in my mind was across the river but it would have wasted another settler move and I didn't yet know that there was a wheat behind the mountain at that time.

Now that the capital is on the hill rather than the grassland I don't think we can/should put a city in the northeast part of the river as it would be just two tiles from the capital.

About this, 4 turns is not possible unless you switch governments or something. The maximum population to start a 4 turn factory is size 5 with 0 food. But that only allows you 2 citizens to work on mined BG. That means 5 spt for 1 turn. 7 for 2 turns. And maybe 9 on the last. So the max shields you can get is 28.

Now that you mention it you're right, I never did the math properly. I thought it through now and got 28 shields (like you did) in 4 turns if we started from size 5 but unfortunately not 30. I'm usually making settler factories when I have cows around so getting no shields from the wines kind of hurts here. It will have to be a 5 turn factory then.

I didn't think Sal's second city was ideal
No qualms with the decesion making, just that now we know the wheat is there I'd be nice to use it. :)

Now that we know the immediate surroundings I made some calculations about the two spots used for the capital:

Spot #1 - on the hill
-3 wines
-2 hills
-5 bonus grasslands
-9 river tiles and tobacco for bonus commerce

Spot #2 - on the grassland 1SE of the hill
-3 wines
-6 hills
-4 bonus grasslands
-9 river tiles and tobacco for bonus commerce


In republic and size 12 the two would make (food+shields)

Spot #1:
2+1 city square
1+3 mined hill
1+3 mined hill
4+0 irrigated wines
4+0 irrigated wines
4+0 irrigated wines
2+2 mined bonus grassland
2+2 mined bonus grassland
2+2 mined bonus grassland
2+2 mined bonus grassland
2+2 mined bonus grassland
1+2 forest
2+1 mined grassland
29 food, 20 shields

By minimizing the amount of wasted food and maximizing shields it could make 23 or 24 shields if I'm not mistaken. It would take 27 or 25 turns to build Sun Tzu's Art Of War with full capacity. 24 shields would be enough for 3 turn knights.

Spot #2:
2+1 city square
4+0 irrigated wines
4+0 irrigated wines
4+0 irrigated wines
1+3 mined hill
1+3 mined hill
1+3 mined hill
1+3 mined hill
1+3 mined hill
1+3 mined hill
2+2 mined bonus grassland
2+2 mined bonus grassland
2+2 mined bonus grassland
26 food, 25 shields

Mine two of the wines and it's 24 food and 27 shields. That's Sun Tzu's Art Of War in 23 turns. 27 shields isn't enough for 3 turn cossacks though.

That's impressive!
I guess the city on the grass obviously has greater shield potential as a producer. Spot #2 would take more worker turns to develop but that's probably not a great factor when we are comparing end points.
Thanks for the work:goodjob:

Phaedo's right. That is impressive. I can look at cities and get a general idea of what I can do with them, but this sort of tile-by-tile analysis is what I've really got to start doing. The place I get really tripped up in calculating settler factories is where you've got the first extra pop, but not the second or the shields. It's not that I can't do the math, I've just got to take the time.

I've never played for points and have no clue how they're calculated. For me thus far, it's been a win-or-lose game. Either I stomp my opponents or I don't.

I think we need to look hard at when we make the change into Republic. I started a thread in Strategy and Tips the other day on when to make the change because I thought I was making the change too early. Most of the responders said they change as soon as possible. It's a decision that's down the road, but one that will need to be considered.

Finally (for now), I have to agree that a rush on the Dutch right now would be premature. We still have plenty of time to make war. Let's expand and trade for a while.

By the way, I'll be out of pocket and probably without internet access October 11 & 12.

War:

I'd say no to this. We have no reason to go to war until there's no more land to fill with settlers. Quick expansion with small troop count is what we should aim for. Once we have run out of space we should build enough troops to feel comfortable going to war and then strike the closest AI which seems to be the Dutch.

I agree with Salarakas on the war aspect. I think we shouldn't try to eliminate the Dutch ASAP. They are relatively far away (with a desert and jungle in between) and they are very useful for some tech trading. So it will only advantage us if they are kept alive somewhat longer. We only need them gone when our empire needs breathing space.

City Placement:
Phaedo's dotmap is actually pretty perfect (the resources are accumulated nicely). I think that all the locations are worthy of having a city and that it doesn't really matter if they're CxxC or CxxxC. It's more important that the available resources are exploited the best way we can. If a city should then move one tile further than planned it's okay with me.
From my point of view, the only thing we have to discuss is in which order we are adding them cities on the dotmaps. The yellow dot doesn't have the priority because we're not going to war pretty soon I reckon. That's why another settler pump is more important. My order would be:
1) blue 2) red 3) light green 4) yellow 5) pink 6) white

Build order:
Warriors are necessary at the moment. We've learnt from the other games that the Dutch, and probably barbarians aren't far away. We should defend ourselves. The next priority is a granary: I'd like to have a settler pump up ASAP. So would it be a good idea to first make 2 warriors and then do the granary, or should we make a settler in the meanwhile? Another scout isn't needed I think, because I don't think our continent is that big that it's necessary to have 3 scouts working on it. Our northern scout needs to scout the dark areas northwest of Moscow and after that into the darkness to the south.

Research:
I have agreed to do the Republic Slingshot, but if it has the downside that military research is behind. We won't have better military units than the Dutch (we can only trade it from them), so that could be a problem. One thing is certain: we should either fully go towards the slingshot or not at all. It doesn't make sense to first develop IW and then start the slingshot. That would be too late. Anyway, we should just vote on this one. Mine is in favor of RS.

Worker Moves:
Our worker should of course finish the mine and thereafter a road. Then he should move towards the wine NE of Moscow and improve that tile. This would be better than the wine N because this way the road could be used as a part of the road towards the blue dot already (our second town hopefully).

Sal's Analysis
Does your analysis state that we haven't decided on which game to play? If yes, I have moved my settler towards the grassy spot, so that we could make another city profit from the food bonus of the wines. So, your comparison is not totally honest, for this city will take quite a lot shields and food away from Moscow. (Or did I miss the point completely here?)

The point of my analysis was basically just to compare the two spots that our players had chosen for Moscow. If we are planning on building a wonder or two we are obviously going to use our best city and make it produce the max amount of shields possible even if it takes something away from other cities.

We are probably going to consider at least two wonders early on - the great library and sun tzu's art of war. I think we can do without the GL as the area around us is so good but sun tzu's could come in handy now that we have agreed to play aggressively. Leonardo's workshop could be useful too (although personally I'm not that big a fan) and later the theory of gravity and hoover's dam.


-city placement: it has been a very long time since I last used anything but CxxC in a normal game. I can go with your suggestions but CxxC could be better

-I'd prefer to get another city and a couple of good units (archers, spearmen) before starting the granary

-I'm not sure but we haven't discovered warrior code yet have we? If not I'd say we definately need it. If we have no attackers we'll be in trouble with the pillaging barbarians. Either research it ourselves (shouldn't take long) or trade it with someone fast. After that we can go for the slingshot if that's what you guys want.

OK. Here's mine:

City Placement:
If we go CxxxC, I think Phaedo's map is the way to go, but I'd settle the red first. I think the blue wheat is too far to go for our second city. Second is blue. Blue begins working development in the direction of all of that ivory. Very important to my mind. Third, yellow, grabs most of the remaining riverbank in the area, as well as begins to form a cultural boundary across the peninsula.

If we go CxxC, I've created a dotmap to show where I think we should go. I'd go red, blue, yellow, green.

Research:
I think we should go slingshot right now, and trade for the rest. That said, I may be the only one comfortable with not researching the war techs when we're going to warmonger. Or perhaps the only one foolish enough to think this is a good idea. At any rate, I do think we can trade for them. I also think that any sidetrack puts us in danger of having a great philosophy department, but no republic. If you all want to pull in a war tech before we really embark on the slingshot, though, my vote goes for warrior code. (No, I don't think we have that yet.)

Worker Moves:
Finish mining and roading the tile he's on, go north to the wines. Irrigate, then road those. Beyond that, I don't know.

Build Orders:
Finish the scout. Build a couple of units, archers or warriors, maybe a settler (depending on growth) before starting the granary.

Long-term plans:
Gameplay: Plan another 10-turn set of individual rounds and compare. Then let's start the regular SG format.
Wonders: SoZ would be nice & we know where the ivory is. Leonardo's Workshop would also be nice. Sun Tzu's would be nicer.

Edit: Dotmap deleted.

One thing about the Dutch is that their unique unit (1/4/1 cheap pikeman replacement) is a tough nut to crack without a lot of catapults. We definately want to hurt them before they get to the middle ages. We shouldn't rush into war but we shouldn't linger too long either.

You're right about the statue of Zeus, I hadn't thought about it. I'd say we definately want it more than the great library and Leonardo's workshop as ancient cavalry is deadly when used properly. It's a relatively cheap wonder too.

Aabraxan: I'm sorry but I don't think your dot map is all that great to be honest. Some important things to consider with CxxC are:
1. Place the cities so that there's 2 tiles between the new city and at least 2 other cities. Having just one city to shuffle troops from is risky. This is especially important near the enemy frontlines and the coast where we have to watch out for landings. In your picture there's 3 tiles between the green and the yellow and the green and the blue.

2. Placing cities one tile from the coast is never a great idea. That can happen in AW games but in the beginning we have lots of possible places for the cities.

3. Minimizing the amount of wasted resources is important. However, losing one shield from settling on top of a bonus grassland is still better than placing the city in an awkward position.

4. Settling on top of hills is always nice near the frontlines for the defence bonus. I'm assuming you placed the yellow dot there because of this. However, I don't think that town is going to be a frontline town so I would definately move the dot 1NE.

Then again, making a dot map was a lot easier, I think, from the our other starts where Moscow was founded on the grassland spot and not the hill. If it's not too late I'd ever consider using Twix's start for that reason. Getting three cities along the river in CxxC formation is very important in my opinion.

We also need mathematics for the statue of Zeus. The more I think about it the less I like about the slingshot. We'd have to delay a lot of things just to get one free tech. Warrior code, iron working, possibly the wheel, mathematics (for catapults and SoZ) are more important to us than getting the republic early on in the game.

I'm not a big fan of the republic slingshot in this game myself.
Reasons:

We are going to want to go to war in the Ancient age. I think this will mean we will have to focus a lot on military builds and less on city improvements, meaning an early republic change could be costly and seriously hurt us (I guess I'm thinking primarily about research).
If we wait for the gambit to play it's course, we will have to hold off on many desired techs and let our close opponents get their defenses up and thus necessitate a larger army, taking away more time from improvements and research. The sooner our forces are at attack strength, the sooner we can focus on other things while maintaining reinforcments (in theory at least).
What do we get out of republic? Lower corruption, therefore better science (but only if we have improvements), more money (but much greater unit upkeep) and we would lose the irrigation penality (this could be big).


The question isn't really if we want republic, it is a question of when. I think the corruption is a mixed blessing if we are funding a large army. Losing the irrigation penality is big but we do have a lot of workable land.

I am not at all a warmonger by nature so I really don't have a lot of experience here. As I tend to be a bit of a peacenik I like expanding as much as possible (hence my penchant for CxxxC). However, looking at my reasons against the republic jump, I can see why CxxC could be really helpful and delay the need for rebublic and let us accomplish our short term goals (namely the defeat of the Dutch) earlier.

I have always traditionally gone for CxxxC in the core but the point of this is to learn so I'm not married to the idea. You obviously have a strong preference for CxxC Sal, could you give us your reasons? If you have time, maybe you could make a dot map for Twix's save and we could compare and decide.

As for ToZ, I'm all for it. We have ivory and those Ancient Calvary are tough for a long time. We could focus on Swords, Cats and Spears and have our mobile forces pumping out for 0 shields. With some slaves, we could have the majority of our military budget devoted to our army and have shields for a bigger army/ wonders/ needed improvements.

Oh yea, I would like math sooner than later as I do love those cats even if we decide not to go for ToZ.
How can you not like cats? You don't need barracks to build them effectively, They're hit or miss but (with 2 or 3) they always reduce your opponents without risk to themeselves thereby reducing your overall losses and they never have to heal. Moreover, they can be upgraded forever so the shields they cost are NEVER wasted.:D

Aabraxan: I'm sorry but I don't think your dot map is all that great to be honest.

Don't be. I'm not too thrilled with it myself. I was not thrilled with it last night, and I'm even less thrilled after having slept on the idea. Scrap it.

Also, thinking about wonders . . . The more I think about it, the more I think we should give serious consideration to SoZ. Ancient Cavalry is nothing to sneeze at. Until we get The Wheel, we won't know where horses are. In the event we don't have any nearby, SoZ could be a real lifesaver.

I've never used catapults much, but that's because I get impatient with them. (I get tired of waiting for them to arrive and frequently wind up taking cities before they do.) I still think we can trade for math, but I am in favor of building cats. I need to learn to use them and we've got good terrain for them.


What's the story on the roster? Are we going to open it up? I know D'Art was ill and am all in favor of allowing him back in, btw.

Phaedo: I'm sure there are many threads about CxxC in the strategy forums. I guess the most obvious plus points are that it's easier to defend cities, your (distance) corruption is slightly lower and you can utilize all the tiles quicker as you don't have to wait for your cities to grow big and get border expansions. Basically, once you use it for a few games anything else feels very weird :)

I made a quick dotmap for Twix's save using CxxC. I had to use some bonus grassland tiles and a couple of forests go to waste but I think it's still pretty decent.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/6189/twixdotmap2ix4.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=twixdotmap2ix4.jpg)

Why are we so stuck to the thought that we need either a CxxxC or a CxxC? Isn't is possible to make a combination of those, possibly to use some resouces more effectively. Or is there a giant downside to this idea that I have overlooked?

I think my game is not good enough to continue with: No WC and the loss of a scout does some serious pains. Although the location of Moscow is better, Phaedo's game has more advantages IMHO.

I'm not that a fan of wonders though, especially for learning purpose wonders aren't really that suitable. I read a nice article on this on the main site. Though, I must say the advantages of the wonders you pointed out (Sun Tzu's + SoZ + GL) are almost too good to not build.
(BTW: SoZ = ToZ?)

The Dutch should be taken care of before the aquire their UU and after we have put up a decent empire and fighting force. Do we set a certain year or event at which we'll attack them Dutch scumbags (;)) or do we wait and attack just when we feel it's okay.

Another thing: We can't first research a War tech and afterwards try the Republic Slingshot. That way it will 95% be certain that we're nog gonna get them gov for free. So, I say "Yes" or "No", but not "Yes, but later on". :D

Sorry, I keep thinking it's a temple and not a statue. ToZ is just my
mistake:blush:

Personally from the stuff that I have read, the CxxC vs CxxxC thing seemed like a style issue more than anything. Of course I could be missing something:crazyeye: . It seemed to me that the issue is one of corruption. At a certain point any new city gets corrupt and basically only useful for a specialist farm. CxxC would get a couple more cities into the core. Sal's map gets 6 cities in the first ring where mine gets 5. It seems my cities have the potential to grow a bit bigger and are planted next to bonuses so they get used right away, Sal's would require a culture pop to get the weastern and northern wheat (or another city build). His would also use 4 cities to connect the ivory, where mine would use 3.

I have thought that CxxC or CxxxC were more rules of thumb and that utilizing
resources was more important. I think my dot map was a mix that you were talking about Twix. I think you could move my yellow up a square and plop another city NNW of the bananas and get the CxxC on the southern border. Another city W of the bananas could be a nice defensive city.

With Sal's, we would have more unit support and use more of the core tiles sooner. Those extra used tiles could add up over time. OTOH, we have lots of
good land so we have lots of tiles to work.

As I have said, city placement isn't really my strength. The collary to that is
that I don't see the subtle differencees well so I don't have strong feelings for choosing one map over the other.

As for research, I don't mind that we went for alphabet as I really like the boats but I think researching war techs will get our marmongering up and running faster.

I think D'art is welcome back if he wants in.

At any rate, we have some decesions to make. Which save are we going to use, what are going to research and what are we going to build?

OK. Feeling better.

Welcome back to the land of the living:D

OK so, as we have a nice odd number to ensure no ties, let's put it to a vote.

Twix's save or Phaedo's?
Republic sling or war research?

That should get us started. Once we have agreed on a save, we should vote on our first city placement. Before we get too complicated, we should just focus on our next city. There are lots of choices in the dot maps and we only need consesus on the first one at this point.

As we will all be playing the next 10 turns, we don't relly need a roster yet, but I was thinking of this when the time comes:

Salarakas
Aabraxan
Twixmeistah
Phaedo
D'Artagnan59


I won't be able to play this weekend but I can probably post

1. Let's go with Phaedo's save then as we've talked much more about it than Twix's
2. I'd definately go with war research and forget about the slingshot

As for the next city... we need a city that can pump out military as we'll be using the capital mostly for settlers early on. I'd go with the one that can use the capital's wines if they are free and has access to the wheat north of the mountain too.

I'm not going to have much time to discuss before Saturday, but here's my $0.02.

1) Phaedo's -- Like Sal said, we've discussed it more.
2) I'm still for the Republic slingshot.

1) Phaedo's save will be best to continue with. The reasons are expressed quite a lot in the earlier posts.

2) We should go with War research. Republic isn't THAT important that we should sacrifice some of our military strength and adjust our entire economy for that cause.

I'm happy with the Phaedo save and I'm for war research

so the red dot for our first city? I'm happy with that

I guess that makes it Phaedo's save and war research regardless of what our musketeer might vote.

I'll probably play my set either today or tomorrow. Shall we post our turnlogs when we're done or wait for everyone to finish playing first?

Finally, some decisions :D. The turnlog could again be posted in spoiler tags, that worked fine on the previous turnset.

As for our first city. I prefer the blue dot, since it has wheat as well (and a BG), but moreover is at the ocean. If we've aquired Alpha we could send our curraghs for some heavy explorations.

Turn 0 - 3500BC
-Change the build to a warrior

Turn 1 - 3450BC
-we meet both the hittites and the dutch. Both are down bronze working and warrior code. Both have alphabet and the hittites have ceremonial burial as well.
-worker finishes road and starts mining the bonus grassland

Make some trades:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3858/hittitestradeyk8.th.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hittitestradeyk8.jpg) http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/889/tradedutchrq5.th.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tradedutchrq5.jpg)

Start researching iron working (26 turns) as we have a lot of hills nearby where iron could be.

Turn 2 - 3400BC
-southern scout finds another banana

Turn 3 - 3350BC
-Moscow warrior->warrior
-southern scout spots a stack of 3 hittite warriors

Turn 4 - 3300BC
-zzz

Turn 5 - 3250BC
-zzz

Turn 6 - 3200BC
-Moscow is about to grow so change a citizen to work a BG instead of the wine in order to get an extra shield and finish the warrior one turn earlier

Turn 7 - 3150BC
-Moscow grows to size 3
-Moscow warrior->settler
-worker finishes mining. What to do next? I kind of like the city site next to the mountain better as it can grow faster and has at least 2 BG for shields. Move the worker 2NW to the wine 1N of Moscow.
-the northern scout has finished scouting the northern area. We could use it to bust fog in the north which helps to keep barbarians from a) appearing and b) surprising us with our pants down as we spot them earlier and can organize some defence. Then again, it looks like we're on a fairly big landmass so I send it south instead
-send our second warrior on top of the nearby mountain as we don't need it for military police

Turn 8 - 3100BC
-worker starts irrigating the other wine
-looks like the Dutch got a bad starting area... they are surrounded by desert, plains, mountains and hills. We don't have to be too worried about them in the near future.

Turn 9 - 3050BC
-zzz

Turn 10 - 3000BC
-zzz


Notes:
-iron working in 15
-Moscow grows in 4 and finishes a settler in 5
-the fog busting warrior is close enough to home to come help defend if someone comes knocking on the front door (unlikely)
-no trades can be done as we are even with the Hittites and up ceremonial burial with the Dutch.

The southern view:
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/3999/phaedo01v23000bccx9.th.jpg (http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phaedo01v23000bccx9.jpg)

Idea: You said that the Dutch had a bad starting location, right? Well, if you give them access to water, it will be much better for them. So, take those lake sites and they will very likely remain weak for the rest of the game.

Of course, that borders near impossibility, if you wish to expand northward too.

Question: Are we talking about switching research, or are we going to finish Alpha, then go war research?

Question: Are we talking about switching research, or are we going to finish Alpha, then go war research?

I assumed that we would just continue with Alpha. I certainly hate wasting resources/money/shields or whatever.

Turn 0 (3500 BC):
- Changed production to warrior.

Turn 1 (3450 BC):
- Worker fnishes road (Alpha now in 12) -> mine.
- Our borders expand
- Northern Scout (Sn) SE
- Southern Scout (Ss) stumbles upon a Dutch warrior and an Hittite scout: now we have two trading partners.
I decide to trade our BW and WC for Alpha, CB and 10g from the Hittites, but they still are annoyed. Afterwards I decide to hand over the just aquired CB to the Dutch for their last gold (10 pieces); they will get it from somebody else anyhow. The Dutch don't have BW and WC ATM, so that's good for our warmongering future and future trades (they are now polite).
- The new research will focus on Iron Working (26 turns).

Turn 2 (3400 BC):
- The Dutch and Hittite delegacies move north.
- Ss 2S / Sn SE
- Dutch are now only down WC (Another civ must've traded BW to them, because they had nothing to offer to us or the Hittites).

Turn 3 (3350 BC):
- 3 Hittite Warriors come in sight of Ss (he moves 2SW) / Sn SE
- Moscow -> Warrior (military police) -> Warrior

Turn 4 (3300 BC):
- DW and HS approach our territory.
- Ss SW + S (mountain) / Sn E + SE (desert exploration)
- Ss sees silks and Arab scout (they are down BW + A + WC, I decide not to trade).

Turn 5 (3250 BC):
- Ss W + NW to take a look at Hittite territory. This continent is not as small as it looked at first, and it seems that we have by far the best starting location / Sn 2 SE
- Arabs acquired BW and still have their 10g (why is Bronze Working granted so mysterously to all backward civs?)

Turn 6 (3200 BC):
- Ss N (hill) / Sn SE + S -> Northside is now totally explored.

Turn 7 (3150 BC):
- Moscow grows to size 3 (BG near river is included). Next growth: 7 turns.
- Moscow builds warrior -> Granary (I want a settler factory ASAP = 15 turns).
- Worker moves towards W-Wine to irrigate it.
- Ss SE + S / Sn SW S (near Moscow)

* IW in 18. 55 gold (-1 pt)

Turn 8 (3100 BC):
- Worker starts irrigation
- Ss 2S / Sn 2 SE

Turn 9 (3050 BC):
- Ss S + E (away from desert, explore some more furtile lands).
- Sn (annoying DW is in the way, now S on hill)

T10 (3000 BC):
- Ss 2E (lake) / Sn S + SE (hill)

* 52 gold (-1), IW in 15.
* Arabia is down A + WC and the Dutch are down WC.
* Growth Moscow in 4. Granary in 12. // 4 shields, 3 stored food, 8 gold per turn.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/100853/Explorations.JPG

Sorry, see next post. I forgot to upload my save.

That was my assumption, too. (That we'd be switching after learning Alphabet).

Anyway, here are turns 11 through 20:

Phaedo's SG: Turns 11-20

Pre-flight assessment:
End of turn 10
Moscow size 2, grows in 7
Scout in 3
Alpha in 19
Treasury 35, +0 gpt
1 Worker
2 Scouts

3500 BC (Pre-flight) action:
Switch build in Moscow to warrior, build in 3
Tinker with preferences

IBT: zzz

Turn 11 -- 3450 BC:
Moscow culture borders expand.
Hittites and Dutch appear. Make some trades.
Dutch: Will give 10 gold for BW, or Alpha and 10 Gold for Warrior Code.
Hittites: Will give 10 gold for BW, or Alpha and 10 gold for Warrior Code. Hittites also have Ceremonial Burial, but they want Warrior Code and Bronze Working for it. I decide to trade WC to the Dutch for Alpha and 10 gold, hoping that the Hittites will then have some incentive to throw in CB.
The Dutch take the deal, and the Hittites trade me CB +3 gold for BW and WC.
Switch research to IW in 26.
Worker finishes road and begins mine.
Scout in the South 1 SW.
Scout in the North 1 SE.
Moscow grows in 6, Warrior in 2.

IBT: zzz

Turn 12 -- 3400 BC:
Scout in the South renamed Scout 001; Scout in the North renamed Scout 002.
Scout 001 goes 2 S, spots a small lake due S of Moscow.
Scout 002 goes another 1 SE.
CA2 says I can sell CB to the Dutch, but they have no gold and won't accept even a 1 gpt deal. Sorry, no gifts today.

IBT: Moscow produces a warrior. Set for another warrior.

Turn 13 -- 3350 BC:
Moscow grows in 4, warrior in 5.
Rename Warrior to Warrior 001.
Go do some close-range exploring with Warrior 001. Send him East.
Scout 002 SE 1 onto hill.
Examine the 3 Hittite Warriors to the South. They're all regulars. They're headed west, so Scout 001 moves 1 SE to try to avoid them. He spies a cow far to the south (& a little West) of Moscow. One step E onto the hill reveals desert, forest, and a couple of BGs, but nothing spectacular.
I check Moscow. I could shave one turn off of the warrior by moving a citizen to work the forest, but that slows growth from 4 to 6, so I decide to leave things.


IBT: zzz

Turn 14 -- 3300 BC:
A Dutch warrior steps onto a hill not far from Moscow. Warror 001, who's sitting on the worker E of Moscow, waits for now.
Scout 002 moves 2 E. That pretty much clears up any confusion about the desert.
Scout 001 moves 1 E to the edge of the desert and forest, then 1 SE.
Warrior 001 decides that protecting Moscow really is his first priority and steps back into town.
A quick check of diplomacy screens:
(1) The Hittites have 7 gold and no techs to offer. We have 43 gold and no techs to offer.
(2) The Dutch have 0 gold and no techs to offer. We have 43 gold and could offer Ceremonial Burial.

IBT: zzz

Turn 15 -- 3250 BC:
Dutch warrior moves closer, Hittite Scout appears.
Scout 002 moves 1 S, 1 SE, clearing a little fog along the coast.
Scout 001 moves 1 E, spies some grapes and what may be Dutch borders. 1 more step E, but I still can't see whose ground he's near.
Fortify Warrior 001.
Moscow (2), grows in 2.
Warrior in 3
IW in 22

IBT: zzz

Turn 16 -- 3200 BC:
Dutch warrior and Hittite scout dance around a little more, but move no closer to Moscow.
Scout 002 moves 2 SE, clearing the fog behind the hills NE of Moscow.
Scout 001 moves 2 SE. He's located Amsterdam, and it's got a warrior inside.


IBT: A Hittite Scout disappears into the fog SW of Moscow.

Turn 17 -- 3150 BC:
William is cautious, and asks me to remove Scocut 001 from his lands. I apologize and comply. While I've got him on the line, I check to see what he's got for trade. Answer: nothing.
Moscow completes a warrior, hereinafter "Warrior 002." I've got 1 happy and 2 contented citizens. Growth in 7, I can complete a Setter in 8.
Settler it is.
Mine complete, move worker NE to grapes due N of Moscow.
Warrior 002 moves SW to find out where that Hittie was headed.
A Dutch settler departs Amsterdam right past scout 001. Scout 001 stares longingly, wishing he could clobber the Dutch settler. He moves 2 S towards the mountains to see what he can see, which turns out to be plains to the south.
The Dutch have two mined, roaded tiles (BGs, I think), and two workers. It looks like those two are currently mining a third BG, which is already roaded.
My treasury is at 48, with -1 gpt. I've got IW in 18 and nothing to buy from other civs, so I decide to run deficit for a while.

IBT: Hittite scout emerges from the fog W of Moscow. He's headed north. A Dutch warrior hops on the hill SE of Moscow. The Dutch settler down by Amsterdam heads north.

Turn 18 -- 3100 BC:
Warrior 002 another 1 SW, though I doubt there are any GHs left in the fog there.
CA2 tells me that if the Hittites popped a GH, they didn't get any smarter.
Worker begins irrigating grapes N of Moscow.
Scout 002 moves 1 S (hilltop, so only one move).
Scout 001 moves 1 S, but he comes down off a hill, so he doesn't see any further. He then moves 1 E and up on a hill. He sees lots of coastline and one mountain, but nothing else.

IBT: Hittite scout disappers into the fog towards the ivory. Dutch workers finish their mine and head towards a tile closer to the coast.

Turn 19 -- 3050 BC:
Warrior 002 another 1 SW.
Scout 002 goes 1 SE, 1 S. He's right next to the Dutch warrior, but relations haven't been tense.
Scout 001 goes 1 S, then 1 SW to get up on the mountain on the coast south of Amsterdam.
A check on the diplomatic front. Neither the Dutch nor the Hittites have any more money than they have had for a while (0 and 7, respectively). The Dutch still lack ceremonial burial, but still don't have any gold or techs to trade.

IBT: zzz

Turn 20 -- 3000 BC:
Scout 002 goes 2 S, revealing most of the rest of the eastern coast.
Warrior 002 goes 1 SE. He's gotten to the end of this peninsula.
Scout 001 1 W, 1 SW. More desert and coast. Yippee.

Summary:
2 Scouts
2 Warriors
1 Worker

Moscow (3), grows in 4
Settler in 5
Iron Working in 15
Treasury: 45 (-1 gpt)

Who we know:
Dutch
Hittites

What we know:
Alphabet
Bronze Working
Pottery
Warrior Code
Ceremonial Burial

Sorry, it was a busy weekend. I'll get mine up after work

3500 BC
Have a little look around and refamilarize myself with things. Switch Moscow to a warrior, and hit return.

IBT An orange warrior (Dutch) and aqua-coloured scout appear. Moscow expands

3450 BC Turn 1
Northern scout moves S to the forest
Worker finishes road and starts mine
Rename Southern scout to Scout 1 (should have named the other one but will
do it next turn)
The little blue guy turns out to be Hittite. We are up BW and WC on both of them. Hitties are up CB and Alph on us where the Dutch are just up Alph.
Decide not to trade. The most I could get would be even trades. We will get
Alph in 12 and we won't have a city to build boats before that so I don't see
the necessity to trade yet.
Move S1 SW

IBT Dutch offer Alph for WC and 12 Gold
Warrior moves N and Hittite moves SW

3400 BC Turn 2
Move S1 S then SE. Looks like there is a little peninsula or choke point to the West of S1 but I'm not going to persue it.
Rename Northern Scout to Scout 2 and move S then E to the hill

IBT Hittite scout moves NW

3350 BC Turn 3
Moscow builds warrior. Fortify him and start on a settler. Growth in 4, the settler will be built in under 15 and should be at size 4 by then (fingers crossed)
S2 moves E E. Not much up to the north really.
S1 moves SE twice to the hill. See some lakes, forest and desert but no borders yet.

IBT Dutch warrior moves to the hill S of the tobacco

3300 BC Turn 4
S2 moves S to the hill and there are some nice BGs there. I like the spot btw
hill and the mount for the next city
S1 moves SE to the hill

IBT Dutch warrior is moving on the hills towards our capital. Hmmm Can't get
another warrior for another 3 turns. If he attacks, I can't do better than the warrior I have unless I use the whip. Probably should, but I'm not going to.

3250 BC Turn 5
S2 moves SE twice to the next hill. See some nice land. BGs and hills could be great producers later.
S1 moves S to another hill and see a Celt. This is getting crowded. They are
up CB

IBT Dutch don't cross our borders and the Hittite scout moves to the hill he was on. The Celt moves NE

3200 BC Turn 6
S1 moves SE twice and see the Dutch borders. It's a pretty big lake
S2 moves S onto our worker

IBT The Dutch seems to be scouting our borders to the East and the Hittite is going around to the West

3150 BC Turn 7
Worker finishes mine and he goes SE to the BG. Our 3rd citizen has been working that square since the growth. Can't get up to size 4 before the settler but it will only be 2 turns at size 1.
S2 moves SE 2X to the hill.
S1 moves SW, S to the hill

IBT Dutch keep moving East and Hittites keep the westward circle of our land

3100 BC Turn 8
Worker starts mine
S2 moves S to the hill
S1 moves E 2X to the mountain to get a look at the Dutch. Looks like they are
coastal (to be expected as they are seafaring)

IBT Dutch move N and the Hittite runs NW out of view. Seems the Dutch have 2 workers who move N out of S1's view

3050 BC Turn 9
S2 SW->S to the hill
S1 E to the Mount and sees Amsterdam size 1

IBT Dutch move NW

3000 BC Turn 10
S2 -> S to the hill
S1 -> S -> S

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/Phaedo3000zoomout.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/Phaedo3000Home.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/Phaedo3000Dutch.jpg

Well, there it is. Not much really happened. We are 2 turns from a settler and
Alph. That Scout getting stuck up north was a pain. Building an archer before the settler may have been a good idea but we'll see I guess.

Edit: After looking at the other turns, it seems that not trading wasn't the best option. Oh well, we live and learn:)

Oh yea, and the save:blush:

D'Artagnan59: any idea when you're going to play your set?

Have to play tomorrow.

Welcome back. Glad to see you survived.

D'Artagnan, are you still with us?

What's the status here, gang?

I'm going to pm D'art. Let's give him 24h from now to commit and if not, we go on. Fair?

Well, patience is a virtue and all that but 'tomorrow' was almost two days ago.

Phaedo's suggestion sounds fair to me.

I pmed him last night. we'll see what happens. From here on, we have to vote for a save and then Sal's up :)

D'art's tied up with RL, he'd like to be skipped so off we go

I think Phaedo's plan is fair. I also notice that we haven't heard from either Twix or Allanc for a while. Are we down to 3?

Twix posted his turns I think. Al seems to gone the way of all flesh though.
I think we are ready to discuss and move on

EDIT: Opps, wrong thread sorry

Well, after looking at the saves, I think Sal's or Twix's is the way to go. It comes down to if we want a settler or Grannary first. Twix has also met the arabs.

The Phaedo save suffers from not making trades. The save can catch up in tech with immediate trades but IW will be 23 turns away as opposed to the 15 turns that it would take in all the other saves. The Celts have been met.

Except for me, everyone has the same tech (Alph, Pot, WC, CB and BW) and IW is 15 away.
Moscow is size 3 in all the saves with growth in 4.
Sal and Aabra have a settler coming in 5 (Phaedo in 2. Maybe I mined before roading the BG)
Twix has a Gran in 12

Sal has 49g losing 1 gpt
Twix has 52g losing 1gpt
Aabra has 45g losing 1gpt
Phaedo has 30g even

All are researching at 100%

Workers will all complete their roads in 2 turns

Twix opened up the Arabs in the Southwest where the rest of us opened the Dutch in the Southeast

Sal's and Aabra's saves are are almost identical whith Sal having a 4 gold edge.

So it would seem to be a discussion about the benefits of a settler or grannary that will decide the save. Given that the Dutch land isn't so good and the Arabs are so far away, I'm tempted to go for the grannary as we ought not to get too much competition in city placement from them but I'm really not sure.

Thoughts?

Some random comments before examining the saves:

1. there isn't a lot of variation in the saves as we basically agreed on what to do before playing. If we had started with 20 turns in the beginning and only set some loose plans the differences would have been much more noticable

2. we don't have to choose the save based on what each of us are building as that can easily be changed

3. I agree, a granary first makes sense as none of the AI are right next to us and we have a lot of land to fill. The sooner we get the settler factory going the better

4. this seems to be quite a large continent as we've already met many civs and seen many different luxuries. Getting a boat or two out asap is not vital but the more civs we know the better

5. we probably could have gone for the slingshot after all. Like I said none of the AI are right next to us and we can get a whole lot of cities before all the land is filled. We don't have to think much about war until then. We could have then traded our techs for the war techs and started preparing for war

I'd say go with Twix's save. He seems to have a slight edge at 52 gold and contact with the Arabs. I also agree with Salarakas in that coming to a (mostly) agreement before playing definitely reduced differences in the saves.

Sal, you are absolutely right about the builds. I guess I was just looking at the saves and not really thinking about them.
The lack of variation isn't a bad thing. I wanted to focus on MMing and this set did show a difference between the Phaedo save and the others in Moscow's production. I need to look at my notes again and compare but somehow Phaedo's Moscow is building faster. It is working the same tiles at the ens so it must have been something before. The growth is the same, the tiles are the same and the citizens re the same. At first blush, I can only think of worker moves
EDIT: It didn't seem to be worker moves. Did the 3rd citizen work the second BG after growth or go to the unworked wine for a turn or to in the other saves?

We need some discussion but the order as it stands is:
Sal
Aabra
Twix (haven't heard from him in a 5 days, which isn't really too long)
Phaedo
D'art (currently skipping due to RL)

Let's make a simple vote again:

1. which save do you want to go with?

2. do you want a settler or a granary first?

3. if you want a settler first where do you want the city?

4. what to research after iron working?




1. I still haven't looked into the saves but Twix's save sounds good to me

2. I'd go with a granary first

3. -

4. if we don't see iron anywhere I'd go for the wheel to see where ponies are. If we do have iron writing could be a nice choice as we're not going to be building any catapults yet.

we're not going to be building any catapults yet.


But you may want to build the SoZ, since you have access to Ivory, so maybe Maths should be part of your planning.

As for my vote:


Twix's save seems best as the only difference is cash, we might as well go for the most. Also, knowing where the Dutch are, it's nice to see the SW
I'm for a Gran. We aren't going to be under a lot of pressure from the other civs so we have some time. Moscow has the potential for a proper settler pump so the earlier it is up, the faster we utilize our land
NA
As for research, I'm with Sal. I'm a big fan of cats but as we have some time to expand, it would be nice to know where the horses are in our planning.


I think SoZ should be a real option, but we are quite a way from building wonders and I think we have some time for math. Having said that, The road to currency can be profitable. I find the AI researches currency late in my demi-god games so I can't see why it would be different here.

I think SoZ should be a real option, but we are quite a way from building wonders and I think we have some time for math. Having said that, The road to currency can be profitable. I find the AI researches currency late in my demi-god games so I can't see why it would be different here.

If you intend to have it, the SoZ is one of those Wonders that you want to get pretty quickly once it's available; because it comes relatively late in the AA, if you build it from scratch it will have lost some of it's value as AC's will be facing better units in the MA's. With that in mind, it makes sense IMO to identify a sufficiently incorrupt and shield rich City site fairly soon, then begin a pre-build once you have settled it.

Let's make a simple vote again:

1. which save do you want to go with?

2. do you want a settler or a granary first?

3. if you want a settler first where do you want the city?

4. what to research after iron working?

1. Twix's
2. Granary
3. N/A
4. I'm somewhat ambivalent, but I think The Wheel. On the other hand, Buce makes a good point about Math/SoZ.

Looks like it's Twix's save and a granary then.

I'm still not sure what to research next. Bucephalus makes some good points and we definately want to start building the SoZ soon. With ancient cavalry we don't really need any horsemen anyway (not a big fan of them either) and knights are still a long way away. Then again, we can start a prebuild for SoZ any time we want and then switch when we get mathematics.

Shall I play today or wait for Twix's comments first?

Well I went ahead and played anyway. Nothing major has happened. The granary is finished and we can start expanding. We've spotted a barbarian camp already so remember to protect all settlers.


Turn 0 - 3000BC
-change nothing, press enter

Turn 1 - 2950BC
-the Dutch have built a second town next to the wine

Turn 2 - 2900BC
-worker finishes irrigating the second wine, starts roading
-the southern scout spots green borders

Turn 3 - 2850BC
-Moscow grows in 1 so change a citizen to work the forest to get one more shield

Turn 4 - 2800BC
-we meet the Celts who are down alphabet
-Moscow grows to size 4, I think it's best to keep working the forest as this would give it growth in 7 and granary in 7. With a little tweak we can finish the granary one turn before growing to size 5.

Turn 5 - 2750BC
-worker finishes roading, moves to the third wine

Turn 6 - 2710BC
-zzz

Turn 7 - 2670BC
-the Hittites have the wheel. We have nothing to give to them so no trades

Turn 8 - 2630BC
-the Dutch and the Celts also have the wheel. The Arabs have mysticism.
-all our money + alphabet + warrior code won't get us mysticism. We don't have anything to give to the other civs in exchange for the wheel so no trades
-spot some ivory near the Celts and the Arabs. We have to start (pre)building the SoZ soon-ish if we want it.

Turn 9 - 2590BC
-our eastern scout stops right next to a barbarian camp
-change a citizen from a wine to a bonus grassland in order to get the granary next IBT

http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/2114/moscow2590bcaj7.th.jpg (http://img60.imageshack.us/my.php?image=moscow2590bcaj7.jpg)

Turn 10 - 2550BC
-our scout doesn't get attacked
-Moscow granary->spearman (can be changed)



Notes:
-iron working in 4
-we might probably want to build a settler next instead of a spearman
-Moscow will grow in the IBT so be sure to raise the lux slider to 10%
-we don't really have anything to trade with the others yet. We might want to trade iron working for the wheel or mysticism if we can get some nice deals
-there is a barbarian warrior 1S of the barbarian camp so be careful with the scout
-there's at least four luxuries on this continent (ivory, wines, spices and silks)
-looks like the Dutch have the eastern peninsula all to themselves. The western one is more crowded with at least three civs there. The north is ours.

http://img327.imageshack.us/img327/484/phaedo01v22550bc1ez1.th.jpg (http://img327.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phaedo01v22550bc1ez1.jpg) http://img327.imageshack.us/img327/1334/phaedo01v22550bc2zk2.th.jpg (http://img327.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phaedo01v22550bc2zk2.jpg) http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/2839/phaedo01v22550bc3oq2.th.jpg (http://img259.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phaedo01v22550bc3oq2.jpg)

Looks good, Salarakas. I haven't had a chance to assess in great detail, but I hope to soon. I think I'm up next on the roster, but I'm not going to get to play for at least a couple of days. I might get to play in the first half of the week, but am not sure. If someone wants to take the save, go ahead.

I haven't had a chance for a close look either but I think it's fine to wait a coupld of days for Aabra

Thanks. I'd like to get Twix's input, but haven't seen anything from him since he last posted in this thread. I'll do my best to play in the next couple of days. But I don't want to hold up the game so if it gets to be too long, just skip me and I'll catch it on the next go-round.

Some thoughts:

-it would be safer to build a defender first before a settler but I'm not sure if it's necessery. If you go for a settler next be sure to make a defender next though. We don't necesserily need a barracks yet as the purpose of our troops is to do some military police duty and keep barbarians out of our way.

-the second city (once we build it) could make one defender and then possibly start the prebuild to SoZ. If we build the town next to the mountain it can't grow past size 6 but SoZ is a relatively cheap wonder (300 shields I believe?) so we should have no trouble getting it. Just be sure to hook up the ivory before going over 300 shields :)

-the capital should pump out settlers every five or six turns. It might take a while to get this cycle going (i.e. we might need a worker or another def first and mine some some bonus grassland tiles, possibly build a barracks) but after that we should do our best to utilize the resources the best we can

-we should expand north (obviously) but we definately want to claim that river spot next to the coast. The last thing we want is some AI civ to found cities right next to our capital. Not sure if we should build a city in the jungle area or not... perhaps if it's still unclaimed when we have founded our "core" cities.

-once the scouts reach the ends of the continent turn them back and do your best to explore the unexplored areas. It might be useful to know where the military resources (iron, horses, saltpeter later on) are when we start expanding

Hey guys, sorry to keep you waiting this long, but I'm having trouble finding time to participate in this game as intense as I would've liked. I really like to stay in though, but it's inevitable for me that I should take a slightly more passive role.

Now for some in-game comments:

- The expansion phase will begin after the granary is finished. I'd like to see us expand the most we can, because it will benefit us later on. There is no acute threat on our hands, so let's build as much cities as we can, and only then put up an attack. Are the Dutch still our first target, or should we take a civ from the west (hittite)?

- I'd like to see: 1) granary 2) defence unit 3) settler. The settler should head towards the blue spot, since exploring the ocean is a very efective way to gain contact with other civs.

- I think we should generally expand south in contrary to Sal. We don't have competition in the north, so we can find some cities there later on as well. In the south though, we have a couple of other civs. So, I think it is worthwile getting the better settling spots before they do. Besides, it is better for warmongering purpose to have some cities nearby enemy terrain (the only thing is that we should defend them well).

- Research: I'm with Sal on this one. If we have iron --> writing, if not --> the wheel. We do have enough time to build math afterwards for SoZ.

That's all I can think of ATM, maybe some things later on. :)

P.S. Good to be back ;)

I found both time to play (at least part of) the turnset and the iron. See attached.

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4947/iron2430bcdi4.th.jpg (http://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iron2430bcdi4.jpg)

Pre-turn assessment:
Short-term goals: Begin granary in Moscow
Mid-range goals: Begin the Statute of Zeus
Long-term goals: World domination.
Research status: Iron Working in 4. Next: Writing if we have iron, otherwise the wheel.

Turn 0: Preflight
Moscow is showing: Growth to size 5 in 1 with no overrun, building a spearman in 4. It's got one happy, two content and one unhappy citizens at this point. We've got one lux hooked up. It's also go two warriors and we're not at war with anyone. I change the build to a settler, which can be had in 6.
The worker will finish roading in 3.
Arabs won't trade mysticism.
Dutch won't trade the wheel.
Hittites won't trade the wheel.
Celts won't trade the wheel.
(All in all, a rotten round of trading.)
Dutch, Celts and Hittites have at least two cities each.
Treasury at 42 gold, -2 gpt

IBT: Hittite and Arab scouts move around close to Moscow. Barb Warrior south of the village steps north onto the hill.

Turn 1: 2510 BC
Scout south by the barbs renamed Scout 001. Unfortunately, he can only bust one more fog square to the south without becoming a human sacrifice. He steps one south (next to the barb) and then north again.
Other scout (out by the Arabs) renamed Scout 002. He goes 1 S towards the Arabs. He spots gold and determines that the Arabs also have two cities. A warrior is fortified in Medina. Next move: 1 W. The Arabs have cultivated two squares and mined one. Looks like they're on the river, too.
Moscow now has two unhappy people to its one happy. . . We're running at 100% science with IW in two, so I opt to make a specialist. Whipping would cost 2 citizens and that doesn't seem like a good trade at this time. Pulling the citizen off the forest sets the settler production back to 9, so I pull a winery worker. That sets Moscow back to growth in 10, but that seems preferable to having the settler's production set back right now.
I create a scientist and fiddle with the science slider, giving us IW in 2 turns at -1 gpt.

IBT: Goth Warrior emerges from the fog to the North.
Celt warrior approaches Scout 002
Barb Warrior approaches Scout 001
Hittite Scout disappears into the fog.


Turn 2: 2470 BC:
Scouts run away from their respective threats.
Scout 002 intends to cross Arab lands and winds up right next to Medina.
Tinker with science slider, IW in 1 at breaking even.
Make a few calls regarding trade, to no avail.

IBT: Arabs call. They don't like our scout in their area. I grovel and promise to move him.
I find iron. It's not exactly in our territory, but not that far, either.
Goth Warrior moves in next to our worker.

Turn 3: 2430
Set research to The Wheel.
Make some calls. The Arabs have the most gold so I'll start with them. Unfortunately, they only have mysticism to trade and they want both Iron Working and Alpha for it. What I really want is the Wheel. Nah, let's see what the others will give.
The Dutch will give me the Wheel and 6 gold for Iron Working.
That doesn't seem like a great deal, so I go back to the Arabs. If I switch and ask what they'll offer for IW, they'll give me mysticism and 35 gold. Now, we're talking! I take the deal and head back to the Dutch. I'm going to go bargain shopping.
Oddly, the Dutch will be insulted by IW for Wheel +6 gold. I shuffle around but am unhappy with all of the deals that William will go for, so I'll come back to him after I've depreciated Mysticism and IW by selling them off.
The Celts (with the next largest treasury) offers The Wheel +4 gold for IW. I take it and go back to the Dutch.
The Dutch have only 6 gold and no techs, so they'll have to buy IW somewhere else.
I move the worker SE to the BG to begin mining.
Wake one Warrior from Moscow to go sit on him.
Scout 1 1 NE.
Scout 2 1 S (out of Arab territory), then 1SW.
Moscow is back up to more unhappy than happy. Convert the scientist to an entertainer, rather than create another scientist.
Writing in 27 turns.
Treasury at 78, +4 gpt.

IBT: Goth moves onto the mountain. Arab scout runs north.

Turn 4: 2390 BC
Worker begins Mine.
Scout 001 runs 2 N.
Scout 002 notices that the Arabs have a stack of two workers.
Scout 002 moves 2 SW.
Warrior moves onto worker.
Whipping down to a cost of 1 citizen, but that's 20% of our population at this point.

IBT: Arab Settler Pair headed SE out of captial.
Celtic veteran warrior appears on our borders.

Turn 5: 2350
Fortify warrior on worker.
Moscow one from growing.
Scout 001 moves NE. Let's bust some Dutch fog.
Lone Dutch settler spotted right next to iron.
Scout 002 goes 2 SE.

IBT: Dutch settler moves onto iron.
Arab pair moves SE.

Turn 6: 2310
Scout 002 -- 2 E. Spots more iron down by the Arabs.
Scout 001 -- 1 E, 1 NE. Can now see Amsterdan.
Make some calls:
Nobody has any tech or gold.
Check on Moscow:
3 unhappy, 2 happy and 2 turns to a settler. One clown and one scientist will do the trick.

IBT: Bill calls. He's mad. I apologize and offer to move troops. Gee, Bill, while you're here, let's see what you've got to trade. Answer: 6 gold, no techs.

Turn 7: 2270
Scout 002 -- 1 South. Spots a Barb camp (Khosian) right next to an Arab warrior. Steps 1 SE to watch the fracas.
Scout 001 -- 1 E to get out of Dutch lands. Steps on the Dutch iron hill to figure out where the settler went. The Dutch are about to found a city with both horses and iron in its radius. It is 5 tiles due SW of Amsterdam.
Writing in 15.

IBT: Arabs kill a Barb.
Moscow builds a settler. Set to Warrior.
Dutch found The Hague.

Turn 8: 2230
Wake Moscow Warrior. Send N with Settler.
Scout 001 moving N out of Dutch lands (which expanded to encompass him when the Dutch founded The Hague).
Scout 002 -- 2 SW.
Wake Warrior guarding worker. Celtic warrior still standing there, but we're not at war and I need the warrior in Moscow for MP.
Zoom to Moscow. One happy, one content, one unhappy and one clown.
The Celts have Masonry.

IBT: Barb warrior moves onto a mountain.
Barb warrior down by Scout 002 moves next to him.

Turn 9: 2190:
Tech summary:
Celts are up Masonry
Hittites up Horseback riding and down iron working.
Arabs are even.
Netherlands are down Mysticism.
William has 31 gold and will give 30 of it for Mysticism. Not yet. I want to wait and see if he'll trade tech later.
Mursilis doesn't seem to want to trade anything.
Neither of the other two can or will trade now. No trades made.
Scout 002 makes good use of the 2-movement trait and runs into the mountains along the coast. (Those brave souls who run away live to fight another day, right?)
Scout 001 moves out of Dutch territory, then 1 back in. (They had some fog I just had to bust).
Writing in 20, Warrior in Moscow in 3.

IBT: Barb moves inside Moscow's borders.
2 Dutch warriors head NW.
Mine finished.

Turn 10: 2150
Move Settler Pair onto the tile to settle next city.
Begin road.
Move Settler 002 -- 1 N. The Arabs have settled Damascus
Iron Working and Mysticism have been traded around. We're now down Horseback riding and Masonry.
Trades attempted, none successful

Summary:
We're down Horseback Riding and Masonry.
We're ready to found our second city, but that honor goes to the next player.
Our units consist of:
Settlers: 1
Workers: 1
Scouts: 2
Warriors: 2
The granary is up and running and Moscow can begin pumping settlers any time now.
Moscow gets a warrior in 2, but this can be cut to 1 by moving a citizen to the newly mined BG.
Writing in 19.
Treasury 68, -3 gpt.

Screenshot:
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/3705/aabra2150bczf9.th.jpg (http://img109.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aabra2150bczf9.jpg)


Save is in the next post.

First, I just realized that I forgot to post the save, so it's on this post.

Second, I've got a settler ready to claim the wheat almost due N of Moscow. I agree that, generally, expansion to the north to claim the ivory is the preferable direction, bit we're going to need at least a couple of settlers to move south to claim the iron. We only have one source in our vicinity. Now that we've got 3 irrigated grapes, two mined BGs and a granary, we should be popping out settlers left and right. I was sorely tempted to pop another settler prior to building the warrior that's on deck right now, just because Moscow is growing so fast.

Third, research is slow. We're 19 turns from writing, but it feels like we're beginning to fall behind. Maybe that will change when we get our next cities founded, but the AIs are up to 3 cities in some cases. . .

Edit: That's a warrior on deck, not a worker, as I had originally put in the next to last line of the "Second" paragraph.

Nice set Aabra. I thought the tradig was quite good:D
And good to have you back Twix:D You're up but if you need a skip that's fine just let us know.

I agree about the iron. Maybe our next city should 1 west of the iron to claim it and that would give us another location where the Celt warrior stands and a possible kill zone city on the hill next to the northern banana (after we fill out the north a bit). Maybe a costal ivory city after the iron? No horsies near so we need that iron.

I think we should pump out another settler before the worker. We should be able to pump out a quick worker after with some MMing. Getting that iron hooked up should be a priority but the ivory is a close second (both for SoZ and the happy factor).

The roster as it stads is:
Twix (unless he needs a skip)
Phaedo
D'art (skipping until his RL issues are worked out)
Sal
Aabra

Thanks, Phaedo. I'm not an emperor-level player, but I am trying to hold up my end of the bargain here. That said, if any of you see any improvements I could make, speak up. That's why we're here. One thing that I've already learned, both from my first set here and the Cbob01 game, is that keeping a really detailed turnlog forces me to pay closer attention to what I'm doing.

As far as trades go, I just figured that I could get by trading those things that we had discussed researching. I'm just sorry that I missed out on the opportunity to sell Mysticism. 6 gold just didn't seem like a fair price and I thought I could get more.

Moscow is growing really, really fast. I think iron is the priority and the Dutch (and maybe the Arabs) have already claimed theirs. Once we've got that, though, we really, really need to look to grabbing a second lux (ivory). Our settler pump is in fine form and it's going to take some real MMiing to pump settlers fast enough to keep from rioting.

I would also note that our treasury will not be able to withstand -3 gpt for 19 turns without running dangerously low. Other research options should be explored. I don't want to waste any beakers, so we may need to lower the research slider.

Twix, good to have you back.

I think both the log and the discussion before taking turns helps the focus. A fixed set of turns helps as well.
Trading really isn't my strength (probably my greatest weakness), but I think it was better to trade with the Arabs rather than the Dutch. You got more money.

Getting up more cities will speed up the research significantly. We are going to lag if our only city is pumping out settlers and if the citizens are specialists, it's going to hurt more. As far as I understand it, research is a product of your civ's commerce. more pop=more science (sort of). Roading is really important to keep that commerce up and of course corruption hurts it. But the AI will out research us anyway. They literally need less beakers to learn tech than we do so we'll never be able to keep up through self-research

Now that our pump is up and running we should be getting more and more citizens producing commerce, thus speeding up our research. Another warrior in moscow will help the happiness and the settlers will keep the pop down a bit.

It's good that we have iron so close to us. We would have been really unlucky not to though since we have so many hills. Our third city could go 1NE of the iron since it's both coastal and next to the river. It also has plenty of shields.

After that we need to start filling the northern good parts.

- I think we should generally expand south in contrary to Sal. We don't have competition in the north, so we can find some cities there later on as well. In the south though, we have a couple of other civs. So, I think it is worthwile getting the better settling spots before they do. Besides, it is better for warmongering purpose to have some cities nearby enemy terrain (the only thing is that we should defend them well).

Generally I agree with you start settling towards the enemy is the right choice. However, the good lands lie north/west of us and we need to get those or the AI civs will send their settler pairs right through our territory and claim them. Getting the ivory connected is our next short term goal after we get the iron.

And besides, we'll have cities "nearby enemy terrain" no matter what we do ;) Thinking about it we might want to attack the Hittites first anyway since they have horses and silks, both of which we want. The Dutch don't have any resources we need and the land around their core is poor.

That said, if any of you see any improvements I could make, speak up. That's why we're here.

Well, since you asked :)

I think using specialists was a big mistake. The way to deal with unhappiness in the beginning of the game is by rising the lux slider (like I told in the notes section of my turnlog) when needed. Losing some beakers does not hurt us much but losing shields and food with specialists hurts us big time. Using one specialist slowed our growth by at least one turn and getting the settler by probably more turns. And you used two in the end :eek: We've already "lost" a great many turns by building the granary and we really need to expand fast now. If you do the math we can get settlers every 5 turns if we raise the lux slider when needed. With specialists that can easily be 10 turns.

Our third city could go 1NE of the iron since it's both coastal and next to the river. It also has plenty of shields.

After that we need to start filling the northern good parts.

This sounds like a good plan to me.

However, the good lands lie north/west of us and we need to get those or the AI civs will send their settler pairs right through our territory and claim them. Getting the ivory connected is our next short term goal after we get the iron.

Again, sounds good. I really don't want the AI to cut us off from the ivory, if we can avoid it.

I think using specialists was a big mistake. The way to deal with unhappiness in the beginning of the game is by rising the lux slider (like I told in the notes section of my turnlog) when needed. Losing some beakers does not hurt us much but losing shields and food with specialists hurts us big time. Using one specialist slowed our growth by at least one turn and getting the settler by probably more turns. And you used two in the end :eek: We've already "lost" a great many turns by building the granary and we really need to expand fast now. If you do the math we can get settlers every 5 turns if we raise the lux slider when needed. With specialists that can easily be 10 turns.

Yes, I did ask, and you're right. I was trying to avoid cutting into our research budget, but it was a mistake. :blush: Thanks.

I guess it's my turn:blush: . I'm not going to get a chance to play tonight so I will tomorrow after work. Somehow I was thinking Twix was up. Sorry.

I agree with Sal's assessment of the next short term goals. I'll post a pre-flight tonight if I can get to it

I think I was supposed to play indeed, though I'm afraid I need a skip. So, It's all yours. GL!

After taking the vote on the last save (which was Twix'S I got a little confused about things so here's a new roster:

Sal (played but may be on deck of Twix needs more time)
Aabra (Just played)
Phaedo (up)
Twix (on deck unless he needs more time)
D'art (skipping until he gets back to us)

I guess as we took Twix's save he was the first in this series although I'm not sure how these things work really. Anyway, this isn't a bad way to start things and we are on regular SG format so there ought not to be confusion again. When D'art has time to get back involved, we'll just rotate him into the roster although it would be nice if he has some input for a turnset or two before he takes a set;) Once we make a rotation, I'll post the roster on the 1st post

More tomorrow. Any suggestions before I take it?

Well, I'm about to start my set. Sorry about the confusion over the roster. I'll do something about that (on the first page before I start).
I'm going to post a more detailed outline of this set's goals as I'm doing a pre-flight for myself looking at the save. For now, I'm thinking these as short term goals:

Settle where the settler pair stands next to the wheat
Get another settler going to claim the spot NE of the iron
Build up our army as much as possible

I edited the first post as an information page (a good idea I stole from Aabra in the Cbob Aw game:D )

I also added this note for Alanc:
If Alanc wants to get in on the discussion as a lurker for a rotation to get a sense of what is happening in the game, we can rotate him in.

I'm pretty sure he has dropped out but if he just got too busy I hope he doesn't feel too embarassed to get back in. I think the discussion for a full roatation is fair and perhaps it would be a good idea for D'art too. Jumping in out of the blue could be frustrating for everyone

the preflight looks pretty similar to the post above:sleep:

Preflight:
After looking at the save, It seems I could pump out 2 more settleres or a
settler and a unit or two. So...
1) Build the new city
2) settle NW of iron
3) develop our land
4) find and destroy the barb camp if I can get to it in time.

2150 BC Turn 40
Get rid of the specialist and get the citizen working the mined BG b/c it's
the same growth time. Use the lux slider to avoid revolt.
Change the build to a worker
hit Enter

IBT some movement. Anoter Barb appears and the Dutch send out a couple of workers to meet us

2110 BC Turn 41
Worker built and switch to settler
Found St Petersburg. The citizen is working the unworked wine of Moscow. We now get Writing in 15 with -1 gpt (we will always have that -1 gpt as long
as we are on max research but we can afford it for a while so no worries)
Fortify the warrior in St. Pete's
Send the new worker to the BG west of the grapes to start mining.
Scout 001 moves to N->E and will die after finding a Barb camp (that was stupid, sorry:mad: )
Scout 002 moves NW 2x to look for new huts

IBT Barb dies attacking St. Pete's with no losses. Scout 001 dies and the Dutch are building the Collosus. Barb moves towards St Pete's. Our people love us and we get some grass for our burgeoning palace

2070 BC Turn 42
Scout002 moves onto the iron to have a looksee. Doesn't see much other than an Arab settler.
Worker starts mining the BG

IBT Some movement and the origianal Barb attacks St. Pete's. It was a close
battle and our warrior was redlined but victorious:D

2030 BC Turn 43
1st worker finished his road and moves towards St P's to connect the two
cities.
Scout 002 busts some fog

IBT The Celts are building the Oracle

1990 BC Turn 44
Scout 002 moves into Arab teritory and opens up Mecca at size 1
worker moves to road space
Turn up lux slider again to avoid disorder (maybe I should have build that warrior). Writing in 12

IBT Arabs complain and we apologize

1950 BC Turn 45
Worker starts road
Scout002 moves deaper into Arab territory to cross it.

IBT Zzzz

1910 BC Turn 46
Moscow builds Settler and he moves East. Starts on Warrior
Turn science slider back up to 100% (Writing in 10)
Scout move to NE edge of Arab territory

IBT Zzzz

1870 BC Turn 47
Settler moves SE and sees a Barb on the hill. Move back to Moscow to await
the warrior escort next turn.
Scout starts to go up the north coast of the land between the Arabs and Hittites

IBT Zzzz

1830 BC Turn 48
Worker finishes mine and starts roading.
Worker finishes road and moves to the BG west of St. Pete's
Settler with escort move E. Turn lux up to 10% (Writing in 8)
Scout keeps moving up the coast

IBT Arabs build a new city near our scout. They will be rubbing against the Celts soon

1790 BC Turn 49
Scout moves up to the hills in neutral territory
Warrior moves to the hill N of the iron and sees a weakened Dutch warrior who
obviously killed the Barb. Settler joins the warrior
Worker on the BG starts a mine

IBT Zzzz

1750 BC Turn 50
Moscow builds warrior who fortifies and switches to Settler (in 5)
Science back up to 100% (Writing in 5)
Settler and escort move to the site of future "Port du Fer" (I really wanted to found that city but the Barb got in the way)
Scout 002 keeps moving north (the Celts have ivory so we don't have a lot of
time if we want SoZ)

Well, I didn't accomplish what I expected to, but I don't know what I could have done to change things:confused:. All and all, I'm not too happy with that set so criticism would be welcome.

I guess i wans't counting on the Barb issue and the rate of growth of Moscow was suprising. It will be really nice to get that ivory hooked up and I think the Hittites should be our first target for the lux if nothing else.

Here are the pics:
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/TheHomeland.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/Theenemy.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/Homezoom.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/SWZoom.jpg

First, don't worry about the confusion regarding the roster. It happens, and it's not like we had a huge delay.

Second, I'm all for letting Alanc and D'Art get into the discussion for a round before playing.

I'm not at a computer where I can look at the save, but I do have a couple of questions. The Celts are building The Oracle and it doesn't look like their ivory is hooked up. I don't have any sort of feel for whether the AI will use The Oracle as a prebuild. Does the AI do that, or will it stick to the Oracle until it's built? At any rate, I am not convinced that we can start a prebuild for SoZ yet. That's too much of our production eaten up. We've only got two cities right now, due to my having hired a specialist too early. Let's get a couple more cities planted before starting a prebuild.

On the other hand, if we wanted a long, narrow empire, we could just plant the next city in a position to claim the ivory. I just don't know how advisable this is and my gut says . . . not very.

On a totally non-strategy related item, your graphics are very slick. Did you install a new graphics pack? If so, which one? I'm using Snoopy's, but I like yours.

I don't have any sort of feel for whether the AI will use The Oracle as a prebuild. Does the AI do that, or will it stick to the Oracle until it's built?

I'm sure that the AI doesn't plan ahead with pre-builds, in the way a human would, but it will readily switch production to another Wonder if it is beaten to a Wonder it was researching; that's why it is so hard to get AA Wonders at higher levels. So be wary of trading away any Monopoly techs which give a Wonder that you really want. They do have 'Wonder fixation' though, which is often to your advantage in AA wars.

That's what I needed to know. I knew that the AI would switch if beaten to a Wonder. I just didn't know how likely it was that it would abandon the Oracle if SoZ becomes available. Thanks.

So . . . Here are the SoZ-related points:
1) Do the Celts have math? (I don't think they do).
2) If not, does anyone?
3) Do they have their ivory hooked up? It does not appear so.


If the Celts have tied up some substantial part of their empire with the Oracle, and are unlikely to switch to the SoZ, I say leave them alone and let the build. Let's just not trade Math around. Also, let's keep an eye out and try to buy their workers as they produce them.

The Celts have masonry and we don't so we don't know if they have math or not.
As for tech, we are down Masonry to the Arabs, Celts and Hittites and down
Horseback to the Celts and the Hittites.
Given the spread, there's a good chance someone has math but you never know. I think SoZ is a lower priority for the AI but we could easily lose it in a cascade. The extra lux is needed regardless so if we don't get SoZ it won't be the end of the world. The Celts alredy have a 3/2 unit with 2 movement anyway so it deosn't really give them a huge advantage.

I don't think we could get to the Celts effectively anyway. We would have to go through the Hittites and I think Sal was right that they should be our first target. That is secondary to growth at this point though. Moscow is growing so fast pop rushing settlers could be an effective way to get them out quick and control our happy issue (wish I had thought of that while I was playing).

I think there is a Barb camp up by our ivory which needs to be dealt with but St Pete's will have an archer in 4 that should be able ot deal with it if the Celt warrior doesn't do it first. Those Hittites are expaning pretty rapidly towards us. We need to get more cities fast. That shouldn't be too big a problem though with Moscow growing so quickly.

Yea, I installed the Womoks' Terrain pack over the weekend. I like the change but it's hard to see the grid on grassland and the rivers could use some work but I love the mountains and am generally happy with it.:)

Moscow is growing really, really fast.

the rate of growth of Moscow was suprising

It seems that you guys don't fully understand what a settler factory or a settler pump is. The fast growth is exactly what we want and the reason why we irrigated all the 3 wines and built the granary.

A perfect 4 turn settler factory is a town that can grow 2 sizes (from 4 to 6 or from 5 to 7) in 4 turns AND get at least 30 shields in those 4 turns. This way it can pump settlers out indefinately without any need of pop rushing, cash rushing, merging of workers or anything like that.

We have +5 food so we can grow 2 sizes in 4 turns but unfortunately we can only get max 28 shields in those 4 turns. Therefore we have to settle for a 5 turn factory. First grow from 4 to 5 (or preferably 5 to 6) in 2 turns by getting +5 food. Then, tweak the citizens a bit to slow the growth down to 3 turns or we will grow again before we manage to get the required 30 shields. Don't let the city grow into size 7 or the food box will empty (the granary doesn't keep half the food when growing from 6 to 7) and it will mess up our factory. If you time the build so that we finish the settler the SAME turn as we would grow to size 7 it won't empty the granary.

With a super start (e.g. 3 grassland cows and bonus grassland around it) you can even get a city that can pump out 1 settler AND 1 cheap unit like a warrior in 4 turns indefinately (or at least until you discover techs that make your cheap units obsolete and you can no longer build them).

I get the settler pump in principle although I haven't had much experience with such a high food, low shield ratio. The unhappiness was the issue for me and I still need to work on my MMing skills. It's the unhappiness factor that I struggle with. I haven't had many food rich games in the last little while (as I don't re-roll starts when I play solo).

So bear with me:), from what I understand, it would be best to grow from 4 to 5 in 2 turns, use the lux slider and MM so the growth is in 3 right? That means the cycle will start 2 turns into the Sal set. After those turns, it would be best to take the citizen off the northern wines and put him on the new mine (while letting St. Pete's use the wine for 3 turns and turning up the lux slider 10-20% to keep up the happiness).

I think this is what I did, it's just that the constant adjusting of the lux slider doesn't feel natural to me yet so it was suprising. I suppose in my most recent solo games, I haven't had large food surpluses but have had availible luxes (or fell behind the AI quickly and went low research and went for unpopular techs to try to take advantage of imbalances between AI civs). I haven't built grans early much choosing to get early early cities in the past so to only have 2 cities at 1700ish BC is counter to my usual strategy too.

But thanks for the excellent explanation Sal:goodjob: . I think Aabra and I;) should feel much more comfortable when we turn up that lux slider and see our research turns expand:) . I am greatly appreciative that you joined up :bowdown:

Just to compare I played 20 turns from my save using the settler factory the best I could. I had to build a couple of troops so it slowed me down a bit but I managed to build 2 cities and a Moscow will finish a settler next IBT. Writing is in 4 and I started a prebuild in St. Petersburg for the Statue of Zeus. I built 1 worker, 1 archer and 2 warriors I think.

We're only down horseback riding to the Hittites (and up mysticism to them), with everyone else we're equal in techs.

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/243/phaedo01v2comparisonph3.th.jpg (http://img329.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phaedo01v2comparisonph3.jpg)

I'm not saying we shouldn't continue from your saves but small things can make a big difference in the beginning of the game.

That's a huge difference! I guess I didn't use the settler factory well:blush:
As this is a training game, would anyone be adverse to me playing my set over and trying to max out the settler factory? I have Sal's play as a goal. I may not hit it but it would be a great 10 turn challenge for me.

Using your save rather than my original one makes more sense for putting us in a better position to win, but doesn't help much with the training aspect. You know Sal, as you seem to be most experienced, and defacto trainer, it might not be a bad idea to play sets concurrently with players and complare end results (without the screeenies to avoid spoiler info).

it would be best to grow from 4 to 5 in 2 turns, use the lux slider and MM so the growth is in 3 right?

Either that or start the cycle from size 5. We don't have enough shields to get a "free" warrior without delaying the settler builds so I'm not sure which would be better. Starting from size 4 would let us keep the lux slider lower for a while but then again starting from size 5 might get us more commerce which might translate into more research even with the higher lux slider. In any case we need to build some troops in Moscow for a while as St. Petersburg needs to start the SoZ and it will take a while before the other towns can produce enough units to keep up with the 5 turn settler factory.

The key is using the lux slider. Remember the golden rule - every time the town grows check the happiness situation and raise the slider if needed. And everytime you finish building a settler check the happiness situation again and lower the slider (i.e. raise the research slider) if you can. Don't use specialists unless you are sure that they are not slowing us down in any way.

After those turns, it would be best to take the citizen off the northern wines and put him on the new mine (while letting St. Pete's use the wine for 3 turns and turning up the lux slider 10-20% to keep up the happiness).

Good micromanaging would be something like this:

Turn 1 - size 5 - 10 food needed for growth - 0 shields done
-use the three wines for +5 food
-use two mined bonus grasslands for a total of 5 shields

Turn 2 - size 5 - 5 food needed for growth - 5 shields done
-use the same squares

Then it gets a bit more complicated. You need 10 food in 3 turns. That basically means 4+3+3 or 5+3+2 or 5+4+1 as you don't want to "waste" any. I have not done any math on which would be the best combination but just make sure you get 10 food and enough shields to reach 30 in those turns. Using a specialist or two for a turn or two works here if you know what you're doing.

And, like you said, St. Peterburg can use the one wine square when Moscow doesn't need it.

As this is a training game, would anyone be adverse to me playing my set over and trying to max out the settler factory? I have Sal's play as a goal. I may not hit it but it would be a great 10 turn challenge for me.

I played 20 turns starting from my last save, not 10 turns from Aab's save like you did. If you want you can try it at least for a personal experience.

Who knows, you might even do better than I did as I played quickly and some decisions like "do I build a warrior now or after the settler?" can change things considerably.

You know Sal, as you seem to be most experienced, and defacto trainer, it might not be a bad idea to play sets concurrently with players and complare end results (without the screeenies to avoid spoiler info).

I could live with that. I'm definately not one of the best players here in the forums but I do know a trick or two ;) And I love fast expansion and micromanaging in the beginning of the game!

I could live with that. I'm definately not one of the best players here in the forums but I do know a trick or two ;) And I love fast expansion and micromanaging in the beginning of the game!

I think I am safe in speaking for Aabra and I that we would appreciate it:). It would also give us a chance to ask questions as to what you did to hep us improve our game.

I'll play my turns again, save the play by play and wait to see what the team wants. After thinking about it for a while, it's a bit of a slippery slope to replay turns so maybe we should live with my mistakes. However, replaying turn sets after feedback seems like a good way to learn from mistakes even if we do't use the saves. One thing I learned through my chess playing experience was that learning how prolong defeat doesn't improve your game. Learning how to win does. It is sometimes better to accept that some mistakes result in failure and start again. If you only practice losing or coming back from a losing position, you never learn how to win.

And now for something completey different... forgive the spam, but if anyone wants to play a game of chess, PM me and we can hook up (I don't want to offend anyone by promoting a site in the forums)

Wow, where to begin . . .

No objection to replay. On the one hand, I don't think we want to get into the habit of replaying every turnset or of playing every turnset concurrently. On the other hand, I don't have a problem with replaying those that present special training opportunities. And I think we're at one of those points. Have at it, Phaedo. For comparison purposes, though, let us know which save you play from.

While I do understand the principle of settler factories, my execution leaves something to be desired. I think the happiness factor is what was really throwing me. Even at Monarch, you've got 2 contented citizens (right?), but at Emperor, you get 1. So Moscow's happiness was a constant issue for me. As far as managing settler pumps, I do OK figuring out what to do with citizens before that first pop growth. It's figuring out what to do with that other citizen after the growth that throws me. And that's just with one city in the mix. When you get to swapping tiles between cities (like you are discussing here), . . . well, I have rarely swapped tiles between cities, and have only recently begun doing that at all. That's one of the places that my MMing needs some work.

Thanks for the tips, Sal.

Chess? I haven't played chess against a human opponent in years and was never very good to begin with, but thanks for the invite.

Big difference! Thanks Sal, catching that we weren't doing thing right was a real help:bowdown:

After paying attention to the settler pump, I got the iron city built (Port du Fer) and a settler on his way to the ivory. Focusing on Moscow had the added benefit of improving my MMing of St Pete's. It can pump out warriors in 4 turns so our settlers have escorts. I didn't build another worker so we only have one but we could have another one in 2 turns from Moscow and it grows in 2 so it doesn't affect our pump. The lux slider stays between 10 and 20% which isn't a big deal.

We get writing in 5

I have the turn log and the save if we want to use it. I also made the same scout moves so we wouldn't benefit from spoiler info.

Let me know what you think

Where are we in the roster? The organizational post says Phaedo's up.