I just can't believe it that we had forgotten the Promotion sub sector. I was just coming to see what your suggestions are about and it is even not there. :(

So please start discussing the promotions and how we can improve them. For your information the Merc. promotions are lowered by half for the coming version.

Regards
Houman

Firstly. The combined city attack/defense promotion is missing it's name. Guess that's more of a bug.

I think the flanking ppromotion is too weak. I would personally like to see it at 40% per level. It's easy enough to asssault the enemy so they can't retreat, so there should be a high chance of it working when it's possible.

Also, how about giving barbarian units a de-promotion, reducing their strength by 25% or so, to indicate their lack of discipline and formal training, and to stop them from destroying AI players. Likewise this should be applied to slave revolts.

The specialised promotions should be more powerful, given that you're sacrificing all round competency for brilliance in one area.

I have another idea too. Once you have built a military academy, how about the ability to pay for extra training. To literally buy experience for your troops, cost increasing the more experienced the unit gets.

Firstly. The combined city attack/defense promotion is missing it's name. Guess that's more of a bug.

I think the flanking ppromotion is too weak. I would personally like to see it at 40% per level. It's easy enough to asssault the enemy so they can't retreat, so there should be a high chance of it working when it's possible.

Also, how about giving barbarian units a de-promotion, reducing their strength by 25% or so, to indicate their lack of discipline and formal training, and to stop them from destroying AI players. Likewise this should be applied to slave revolts.

The specialised promotions should be more powerful, given that you're sacrificing all round competency for brilliance in one area.

I have another idea too. Once you have built a military academy, how about the ability to pay for extra training. To literally buy experience for your troops, cost increasing the more experienced the unit gets.

Hi Scottish man,

I really agree with you about a barb promo. When you play with TR world map, Egypt is usually conquered/destroyed by barbs. That's make me sad, it's one the first civs that really awaken from barbarism. A 25% reduce strenght is good, IMO.

Flanking promo should also receive a greater value. I agree. But 40% seems a little bit high, as you can have Flanking II (an other 40%),... 25% seems good IMO.

About military academy, i don't agree. As a retired soldier, i can really tell you that the main lessons you can received are on a battlefield, when you are under a real pressure. Of course, you had learned many usefull lessons in a war academy, but you can collapse, fail, on a battlefield even with a good training. Sometimes, even the best are not prepared to accept the truth of a battlefied: death of a friend, blood, pain, ....

The Frog.

"I think macemen should get 10-15%against melee; the macemen are equipped with the armor and have superior weapons compared to classical age.

I figured they(macemen) should have a greater strength against melee
(more thinking against swordsman) swordsman str 6 +25% melee vs. 8 that comes out to 7.5 vs. 8, at least having a 10-15% melee(or have bonuses against swordsman and axemen not pikemen and other melee units) would be a good choice.

I still think catapults are have too much strength, they should have to be protected by other units. presently is is difficult to kill them with an axemen, I think the catapult defense is better represented by having other units on same tile. Vanilla catapults have a str of 5 originally because if it was weaker it would be even more of a sacrifiical unit, but since this new ability from dales combat mod they are stronger and should no longer be a stand alone units and they are no longer meant for physicallly attacking which was there reason for their 5 strength in the first place.

a question of mine.. what is the difference between having 15% str-15% str defense and having 15% city raider? except the first one the 15% added for attack ability is for anywhere where as the city raider is only added for cities. and of course on defense they are the same..

i htink the specilized bonuses are not quite as effective. adding 10% strength is better then ahving 15% specialized strentgh, there should be more reason to specialize, the 5% is not a big enough difference in my opinion when it could only be used against a certain type of unit where as the 10% is universal

a suggestion, i think you guys should reintroduce 25% city defense or 20% from the start. with all these new additions, it should be more necessary to bring seige weapons. i think."

- me a while ago



said before in original thread

Oh and by the way, Warlords gold introduces a new line of unit. Foot Knight, Str 9.

All former Maceman UU are transfered now as Footknight UU. There is only one maceman in game which has the same job to stop Knights and Crusaders.
The Foot Knight is there to scare everyone else.

It was redicelous that Firaxis was thinking Maceman were superior to Swordsman. Through out the ancient and classical and middle age military history Swordsmen were the most favourable units. Just for you info. :)

The Gold version is looking great...

guys with swords between classical and middle ages are different. the middle ages guy is stronger because they are better equipped. Macemen carried armor made from chainmail etc. which i think iron swords from earlier on would have a more difficult time penetrating, and having superior steel sword/mace/ etc.. weapons.

the game didnt differentiate with the different types of melee units in middle ages as they had during bronze and classical age. So i thought this meant macemen were suppose to be the grouping of all infantry besides pikemen during middle ages. In previous civ they were known as medieval infantry. nevermind the name macemen, i thought of it as medieval infantry as it is meant to represent all middle age melee units including guys armed with maces, swords, axes, or any other melee weapon minus pike.

its great that its looking good, i am waiting eagerly:goodjob:

Hi Scottish man,

About military academy, i don't agree. As a retired soldier, i can really tell you that the main lessons you can received are on a battlefield, when you are under a real pressure. Of course, you had learned many usefull lessons in a war academy, but you can collapse, fail, on a battlefield even with a good training. Sometimes, even the best are not prepared to accept the truth of a battlefied: death of a friend, blood, pain, ....

The Frog.
Granted. But extra training under seasoned veterans would benefit anyone. How about limiting it to no more than an extra 3 exp that can be purchased.

Is this an acceptable compromise?

WarKirby

Hi Scottish man,

I really agree with you about a barb promo. When you play with TR world map, Egypt is usually conquered/destroyed by barbs. That's make me sad, it's one the first civs that really awaken from barbarism. A 25% reduce strenght is good, IMO.

Flanking promo should also receive a greater value. I agree. But 40% seems a little bit high, as you can have Flanking II (an other 40%),... 25% seems good IMO.

About military academy, i don't agree. As a retired soldier, i can really tell you that the main lessons you can received are on a battlefield, when you are under a real pressure. Of course, you had learned many usefull lessons in a war academy, but you can collapse, fail, on a battlefield even with a good training. Sometimes, even the best are not prepared to accept the truth of a battlefied: death of a friend, blood, pain, ....

The Frog.
Froggie you are crying for Egypt....will wonders never cease? :p

guys with swords between classical and middle ages are different. the middle ages guy is stronger because they are better equipped. Macemen carried armor made from chainmail etc. which i think iron swords from earlier on would have a more difficult time penetrating, and having superior steel sword/mace/ etc.. weapons.

the game didnt differentiate with the different types of melee units in middle ages as they had during bronze and classical age. So i thought this meant macemen were suppose to be the grouping of all infantry besides pikemen during middle ages. In previous civ they were known as medieval infantry. nevermind the name macemen, i thought of it as medieval infantry as it is meant to represent all middle age melee units including guys armed with maces, swords, axes, or any other melee weapon minus pike.

its great that its looking good, i am waiting eagerly:goodjob:
Yes I to also viewed them as medieval infantry with all of the advances in technology and tactics that came during that era.

Well, the Mace man will be a specialiez unit in next release and foot knight will be the new and strongest foot unit. However the Maceman can stop it.

Regarding the promotions, what if we change the attack rates from 15% , -15% to 20% - 40% each level?
In that case the unit is damned in defense but rocks in offense. The city attack would get more sense, since it has no penalties on defense but also not always a bonus on attack (20% first level and so on?). BUt Garrison needs to have same values to balance it out.

What do we do with Defense? 15% on tiles but -15% attack doesn't make any difference....Is defense possible at all? Or just +5% and no attack malus?

Regards
Houman

Well, the Mace man will be a specialiez unit in next release and foot knight will be the new and strongest foot unit. However the Maceman can stop it.

Regarding the promotions, what if we change the attack rates from 15% , -15% to 20% - 40% each level?
In that case the unit is damned in defense but rocks in offense. The city attack would get more sense, since it has no penalties on defense but also not always a bonus on attack (20% first level and so on?). BUt Garrison needs to have same values to balance it out.

What do we do with Defense? 15% on tiles but -15% attack doesn't make any difference....Is defense possible at all? Or just +5% and no attack malus?

Regards
Houman

Houman,

Yes Defense is possible. It could be a promo that gives +X% to strenght only in defense of course, but also that allow the unit to ignore first strike or that slow down the unit (1 title move max, even if there is roads),...
In France, in 1940, we had Infantry units only made for defense in the Maginot Line. They were slow, well protected,... In fact they were useless, Germans had chose to bypass the Maginot line...

The Frog.

Introduction

Maybe you have read this introduction already in the "General Total Realism" Topic. I post only the promotion relevant stuff again.


In some parts i dislike the promotion sytem of TR. I like the change from Civ3 to Civ4 that units have only one combat value instead of an attack and defence value. I don't see the big difference between an attacking swordsman on open field and the defending one. While should the attacking (or defending) swordsman get any bonus?
Ok, now we have one combat value and the tactical deepness we get mainly trough special boni vs unit types. Spearman is strong vs mounted units, weak against other infantry ... and so on.

The current TR promotion system give boni that doesnt make sence. Again my example with swordsman. How can a swordsman getting better with defending plains but dont get any abilty to attack an other swordsman on plains.
That a unit hidden in a forest get a defensive bonus is already part of the game. But if your archer learns to lure in forest, the archer dont recieve any bonus on attacking in forest?

I think u have to know both sides - attacking and defending - to get realy stronger. Maybe you will specialize in one way, but the other exists.


Ok, enough introduction. Let's get to the real part.

One sided Promotion = Realism?


The reason why i want this here is simple: I think my ideas doesn't only change the promotion system, but also include some buildings.

In the introduction i also explained why i have a bad feeling with the current promotion system. One sided military units aren't realistic.

I got the baddest feeling for the following promotions:

City Raider - To train a melee unit to fight in streets is a good training. But then specialy a melee unit should also get some defence skill. On the other hand, ranged units can archive city-defensive abilities. But then i would change the Value in maybe +15% City attack and +5% City defence.
Attack - Again nearly the same aspects as before.
Defence ...
Guerilla - I think just +XY% Hill combat is more realistic (defence AND attack)
Woodsman ...


The rest - especially the group bonus - are fine promotions.


Now away from criticism to suggestions:

We build mostly military units in cities with barracks. Therefore every unit got at least one promotion at start. This first promotion can be like the choice of a profession. You train a new unit - for example a archer - and train him the basics of city combat. The Archer doesn't archive much combat strength out of this profession. Let's say he got 5% city attack and defence.

But now the Archer has the capabilities to get stronger in this kind of combat. The unit has some theoretical background knowledge. If he archive some more skillpoints (gain 5 xp). He firstly get some real combat bonus. Lets say 20% city attack and defence.
Of course he can also choice a diffrent profession (i also think this is part of the engine we can't get rid of it easily) and start to grow in two professions.

In the last chapter i already suggested to include stable-like-buildings for the other military units. This suits perfect in this profession system. We train a unit out of a simple barracks. He learn some stuff about Forrest Combat. The second part of training taught him in the forrest of the Archery Ground some "real" experience. And we got a customized 5 exp unit.

I think this system will be kind of fun. Because of high construction costs of the special military buildings your cities will be specialized. Everyone knows that mixing units is strong - specially in TR - and this way you made decision which unit-type in which city. Got units with nice abilities.


Professions

!! EDIT !!

To see a list of Professions and Promotions take a loook 3 posts later.

!! EDIT !!


Thanks at Zuul aka Uthar (I have his document as orientation)


I think this gives an idea about it. Of course the values aren't well balanced.


any comments?

Before i forget it: I would help working on a new Promotion System. I study computer sience and do a lot of programming stuff, but modding in Civ is new for me.

Of course i can change the XML files ... but nothing more - i can't create the 5 new buildings (Archer, Melee, Gunpowered, Armor, Hel) ... and don't know how to bind new promotion Symbols in TR ...

The original Promotion System is from "Zuul aka Uthar" (as it seems from the documentation files). I dont know, if we can use his stuff further ... is no e-mail in the documentation ...

Exerior,

Very interesting. I like the general idea. I disagree with the values and names of some of the promos.
This system seems easier to understand than the one used actually. Some promos are more usefull with this system, such as those linked with cities and territorial combat. When you know how attacking a city or a hill, you also know how to defend it, for exemple.
Let's wait other comments...

The Frog.

> I disagree with the values and names of some of the promos.

yeah - me too - actually i'm working on the values ... for the names i need help :)

hi again,


the orignal file is an open office table. Sry for the bad formatting. There are also some table organized data, i can't copy and paste. I write them in text down ...

And now the explainations :)

I tought that some promotions needs special equipment or unit abilities. For example with granades you can be more effective in a city attack. Or you need to have an armor to learn the "Armored" Profession.

I would simply use a start-up promotion for these units to active the possibilty to learn these promotions later. Maybe there is a more elegant way to do it - but i'm just happy with knowing one way that work somehow.

The special requirements will be:
Fast - for speedy things like "Blitz"
Range - e.g. City Defence
Small - e.g. City Attack
Rocket - e.g. Anti Tank (maybe Anti-Aircraft)
Grenades - e.g. City Attack, Collateral damage
Armor - for "Armored" profession

As written before the whole promotions is divided in professions:
Armored, Combat, Assault, City, Landscape and Medical

Armored

Armored makes your units stronger, but slow them down significant. Only units with armor can learn this skill (e.g. knights, tanks, ...).
If an unit has only one speed it can learn only up to Armored III (e.g. teutonic knight).
The Fortify skill is something i would like to add - but couldn't finde out if it possible. The skill increase the fortify ability from 5 over 5 turns to 10 over 4 turns ... 20 over 3 turns ... 40 over 2 turns.
I find the values for forify in a XML file - but what i found are global values.

Combat

The standart combat profession.
Usefull for every type of unit. Don't think i have to say something about it.

Assault

Assault has no +% Strength in it. But i think it is useful either. The first strike ability is nice.
The Grenade use activate collateral damage for units who actualy have grenades (e.g. Marins ...).


City

Only small units can learn city attack (no tanks or mounted) - so primary melee, gunpower.
Only range units can learn city defence.
Units with rockets can learn City Ambush.
Siege weapons Accuracy.

Landscape

Forest Ambush and Hill Ambush needs rockets.
Only helicopter can learn Hill Attack (think helicopter are quiet effective there)

I will stick Tundra and Plains to one type ... it is quiet stupid to have two of them -_-

Medical

Medic III is for Mounted units without the "while walking heal".

Common Skills

Common Skills are no profession. But to learn any common promotion u have to learn at least one profession.

Aid

Don't know the actual aid values - maybe my values are still too strong.


Balance

I orientate my values on the current TR values. The yardstick is the standard combat strength. A 5 XP unit has again +20% and the 10XP unit +30% Strength. I like these values.

But i just have rarely a unit with more then 10 XP or even 17 XP. If i attack a city, i use my new units as connen fodder to get the units inside the city low and then i attack with my more valuable units the recieve more experience. With this i can get a hand full 10 XP units. Getting them to 17 XP is work again ...
I think in middle my unit recieve 2 XP for a kill (i don't know for sure, i use stack-quick-combat). Let us see: A unit with 5 XP (stable, barracks) needs 12 XP to claim the 17 XP mark. These are around 6 kills. If every battle has a odd of 1/2 only 1 of 64 units will recieve 17 XP.
If i just blind attack ... even lower ... because a winning unit needs to regnerate.

I would appreciate to get slitly more experience for winning fights. An increase of 50% will make a lvl 17 units four times as probably.


General - a new profession?

The next point is a general ... i would like to create a general profession. He would mainly get aid-effect-promotions. I see three ways to get such generals:
1. Just build a unit and choose the general profession.
2. After a unit has reached 17 XP (or 26), the unit can learn the general profession.
3. We simply use the already implemented generals.

I would prefer the third way. Even if the odd has his hands in the game ... but hey, nobody can train a good general in a barrack.

But - doesnt matter how we get the general - we have an experience problem. The best solution would be, that the general get's 10% of the earned experience and get up this way. Does anyone know if it is possible to share experience?

And i have other question: Does the aid works while attacking with a unit? (I think yes, because he still has the symbols ... but sure? ... no)


Effects

# Profession / Skill Value Type Value Type

ARMORED

1 Armored 5 Strength
2 Armored II 20 Strength 1 Movement Cost
3 Armored III 20 Strength -10 withdraw chancence
4 Armored IV 20 Strength 1 Movement Cost
5 Armored V 20 Strength -10 withdraw chancence
5
6 Armored Barragge I 20 collateral damage -10 withdraw chancence
7 Armored Barragge II 25 collateral damage -10 withdraw chancence
8 Armored Barragge III 30 collateral damage 1 Movement Cost
8
9 Advanced Fortify I Inc Fortify value
10 Advanced Fortify II Inc Fortify value
11 Advanced Fortify III Inc Fortify value

COMBAT

12 Combat 5 Strength
13 Combat II 15 Strength
14 Combat III 10 Strength
15 Combat IV 10 Strength
15
16 Flanking I 10 withdraw chance 5 Strength
17 Flanking II 10 withdraw chance 5 Strength
18 Flanking III 10 withdraw chance 5 Strength
19 Flanking IV 15 withdraw chance 5 Strength
19
20 Drill I 1 first strike chance 5 Strength
21 Drill II 1 first strike chance 5 Strength
22 Drill III 1 first strike chance 5 Strength
22
23 Barrage I 10 collateral damage 5 Strength
24 Barrage II 10 collateral damage 5 Strength
25 Barrage III 10 collateral damage 5 Strength

ASSAULT

26 Assault 5 withdraw chance
27 Assault Flanking II 20 withdraw chance
28 Assault Flanking III 20 withdraw chance
29 Assault Flanking IV 25 withdraw chance
29
30 Assault Drill I 1 first strike
31 Assault Drill II 1 first strike
32 Assault Drill III 1 first strike
33 Assault Drill IV 1 first strike
33
34 Mobility I 1 movement (req. Flanking II or Drill II)
35 Mobility II 1 movement (only fast units)
36 Mobility III 1 movement (only helicopters)
36
37 Flanking Barrage 10 collateral damage 5 withdraw chancence
38 Drill Barrage 10 collateral damage 1 first strike chance
38
39 Blitz multiple attack
40 Commando use enemy roads
41 Amphibious no water or river penelty
41
42 Grenade Use 15 collateral damage
43 Grenade Use II 15 collateral damage

CITY

44 City 5 City Attack & Defence
45 City II 20 City Attack & Defence
46 City III 15 City Attack & Defence
47 City IV 20 City Attack & Defence
48 City V 25 City Attack & Defence
48
49 City Attack I 20 City Attack 10 City Defence
50 City Attack II 25 City Attack 10 City Defence
51 City Attack III 30 City Attack 10 City Defence
51
52 City Defence I 20 City Defence 10 City Attack
53 City Defence II 25 City Defence 10 City Attack
54 City Defence III 30 City Defence 10 City Attack
54
55 City Ambush 30 City Defence 30 Armor
55
56 Accuracy I 10 City Bombard Damage 5 City Attack
57 Accuracy II 10 City Bombard Damage 5 City Attack

LANDSCAPE

58 Landscape 10 every Title
58
59 Forrest I 25 Forrest
60 Forrest II 25 Forrest double speed
61 Forrest III 30 Forrest
62 Forrest Ambbush 25 Forrest Defence 25 Armor
62
63 Hill I 25 Hill
64 Hill II 25 Hill double speed
65 Hill III 30 Hill
66 Hill Attack 50 Hill Attack
67 Hill Ambush 30 Hill 25 Armor
67
68 Desert I 25 Desert
69 Desert II 25 Desert double speed
70 Desert III 30 Desert
70
71 Tundra I 25 Tundra
72 Tundra II 25 Tundra double speed
73 Tundra III 30 Tundra
73
74 Plains I 25 Plains
75 Plains II 25 Plains double speed
76 Plains III 30 Plains
77 Plains IV 35 Plains

MEDICAL

78 Medic 4 Heal
79 Medic II 8 Heal
80 Medic III 4 Heal while walking
81 Medic III 8 Heal (for mounted)
82 Medic IV 8 Heal

Common Skills

83 Cover I 20 Archer
84 Cover II 25 Archer
85 Cover III 30 Archer
85
86 Pinch I 20 Gunpower
87 Pinch II 25 Gunpower
88 Pinch III 30 Gunpower
88
89 Shock I 20 Melee
90 Shock II 25 Melee
91 Shock III 30 Melee
91
92 Formation I 20 Mounted
93 Formation II 25 Mounted
94 Formation III 30 Mounted
94
95 Ambush I 20 Armors
96 Ambush II 25 Armors
97 Ambush III 30 Armors

Aids

98 Scout Aid I 1 first strike chance
99 Scout Aid II 2 first strike chance
100 Scout Aid III 3 first strike chance
100
101 Heavy Aid I 5 Strength
102 Heavy Aid II 10 Strength
103 Heavy Aid III 15 Strength
103
104 Ranged Aid I 5 Strength 5 City Defence
105 Ranged Aid II 10 Strength 10 City Defence
106 Ranged Aid III 15 Strength 15 City Defence
106
107 Mobility Aid I 5 withdraw chance
108 Mobility Aid II 10 withdraw chance
109 Mobility Aid III 15 withdraw chance
109
110 Siege Aid I 5 withdraw chance 5 City Attack
111 Siege Aid II 10 withdraw chance 10 City Attack
112 Siege Aid III 15 withdraw chance 15 City Attack
112
113 Crowded I -15 withdraw chance -10 Strength
114 Crowded II -30 withdraw chance -20 Strength
115 Crowded III -45 withdraw chance -30 Strength

Exerior,

All your ideas are very interesting, that's sure. I suggest you to sent a PM to Houman to ask him to have a look on this, and to give you a small comment. Also, to know if it's a priority to change the whole promo system.

It's only to help you to know if don't waste your time.... For my own, i think that the promo system could be greatly relooked and improved.

The Frog.

Exerior,

I really appreciate it that someone is giving the promotions some thoughts. I had a look on your list but its not complete. May you please go to your Warlords Realism folder:
Total Realism\Documentation\Promotions.xls

And send me a new updated promotion suggestions according to this list, since you had forgotten some of them. I am planning to finish the promotions for the next version as well.

Many thanks,
Houman

@Houman: I don't think you get my point :)

Yeah, maybe there are missing some promotions. And i will add Sentry, put "heal while walking" in an extra promotion, add Navigation, Fanatic, Nationalism and the Merc's selfpreservations. But that isn't the point of the changes i suggested. I wouldn't have thought some hours about this to suggest only balance changes.

I want to know what do u think about the Profession System:

First a unit has to learn a Profession (with weak or no bonus). Then the unit can learn real promotions inside this Profession.

We can name the profession in a proper way and give them special colored symbols to diffrent them from promotions.

The idea behind it is simple:
A unit learns a profession (like city combat) in a barrack. Then he can learn with the theoretical background the real strength in this profession.

To be honest, I like the current system better.

WarKirby

To be honest, I like the current system better.

WarKirby
Agree, lets tweak the current system; not abandon it.

I have worked the night on a bata of my ideas.

Some already work, others not.

I will finish this the next days and can only hope you give my promotion system a change.
I also learn to write scripts to add some small functionality - now i know why many modder want more hooks :)

All,

IMO, the current system has some strong weaknesses. Not all is bad but some promo are useless, some values are inadapted,....
That's why i suggest to have a look on Exerior work. Maybie, it could be better. Let him work, and we can then discuss about it.

The Frog.

The only things I like in there are forest/hill attack bonuses. Those are sorely missing

Oh. Another idea. Can we give troops an attack bonus for attacking down hill, ie. attcking from a hill tile into a flat tile?

Also, could we have a penalty similar to the river crossing penalty, for attacking over the great wall. It's not fair that it only works on barbarians.

WarKirby

The only things I like in there are forest/hill attack bonuses. Those are sorely missing

Oh. Another idea. Can we give troops an attack bonus for attacking down hill, ie. attcking from a hill tile into a flat tile?

Also, could we have a penalty similar to the river crossing penalty, for attacking over the great wall. It's not fair that it only works on barbarians.

WarKirby
Again I agree. The current system is not broken IMHO; but it could use some additions and some re-thinking involving some of the promos. ;)

To be honest we have not much ressources (Time) to do anything extensive for promotions. Right now for this release we should focus more on what can be done with the current system and yet collect ideas for a future version.

Regards
Houman

can you do my 2 small suggestions
Can we give troops an attack bonus for attacking down hill, ie. attcking from a hill tile into a flat tile?

Also, could we have a penalty similar to the river crossing penalty, for attacking over the great wall. It's not fair that it only works on barbarians.
Civ doesn't reward you for taking the high ground, which seems stupid.

By "Civ doesn't reward you for taking the high ground" you mean that units don't get extra XP for that?

As far as I've seen, they do. The math behind XP gain compares the final strengths of the 2 units after modifiers

No. I mean you don't get an attack bonus for charging downhill. Only a defensive bonus.

Nothing to do with experience

WarKirby

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4601053#post4601053

what are your thoughts on this?

sounds interesting.

Some of them TR already has, but I especially like the invisibility promotion. It should be possible to promote scouts/explorers/marines to be invisibe in forests.

I would love to see Dom Pedro's concepts included in TR, it would add A LOT tactical deapth and flavor to the combat system..

I have already a nice concept that is the best one we have ever created. I had a misunderstanding of some values that are now clear. This will lead to amazing results stay tuned. Hopefully we can finish it until Saturday..

@ all,

hotpatch of Houman, post 156 on warlord TR forum....
Important changes in promos.

The Frog.