The biggest concern for me about TAM Warlords is going to be the Unique Buildings. Here is the list of what I have come up with.

Persia=Apothecary Warlords effect
Media=Median Training Camp? (barracks) +5 exp.
Kolchis=Kolchean Harbor? more trade route
Lydia=Lydian Market? +25% wealth +5% for every luxury resource
Hittites=Hittite Lion Gate? (Walls) +2 culture 50% city defense
Babylon=Edubba? (Library) +40% research
Egypt=Obelisk Warlords effect
Nubia=Nubian Pyramid more culture?
Rome=Forum Warlords effect
Gaul=Celtic Dun? (walls) Warlords effect
Germany=Thengaz (court) less production cost than normal court since it was just a ring of rocks
Carthage=Cothon Warlords effect
Greece=Odeon Warlords effect
Illyria=Kala (Castle) +30% city defense +1 exp for all units trained
Getae/Dacia=Immortal Shrine? (holy site) +2 happiness, +2 culture?
Phoenicia=Trading Post (harbor) +1 trade routes
Britons=Henge? (monument) +1 happiness +3 culture?
Iberian Tribes=Iberian Stables? horses get free movement bonus?
Tartessians=Tartessian Docks? giving free tin resource?
Scythia=Scythian Stables? +5 experience to horses?
Goths= Mead Hall

Any ideas are welcome.

Lydian Oracle Interpreter. When you build this building a new military advisor is loaded that gives you horrible advice.

I liked each civ having a unique wonder in civ III TAM. Is there a plan to include unique wonders in TAM warlords? Unique buildings would be cool anyway.:goodjob:

Well, I just joined the TAM team so I have no idea about Unique Wonders. I do have some ideas for those if that were the case though. The Lydian Oracle might be an option I guess. Replaces Monument, gives more culture? Happiness?

I was joking about the Oracle interpreter. According to Herodotus, the Lydian empire fell when the king consulted the Oracle before going to war with the Persians. The Oracle said something along the lines: "If you go to war, a great empire will fall." Taking this as resounding endorsement, he attacked. And of course his own great empire fell.

The Lydians were supposed to be fairly wealthy. Perhaps some sort of update on the Maket?

Yes I know you were being sarcastic Hypnotoad. But yes an update on the Market would be a good idea. How about the... Lydian Market!

just some suggestions:
Gemans and later the norse had a unique kind of court, the thengaz, it was where the tribal elders would meet to decide laws, perhaps this for a unique german building?

Lydians: their wealth came fromt he region, its gold etc, not from trade so perhaps a forgew of some sort, similar to mali's mint perhaps?

scythians, both ethnic and literal, are also known as "the burial mound civilization" because of a number of various burial cairns and such scattered about their lands that held skythian artifacts, so perhaps their unique building could be a unique burial mound, perhapsone that gives an extra + to culture?

Illyrians, I think that "illyrian citadel" is an excellent idea,perhaps make thistheir unique building and rename the wonder to "citadel of ___" where ____ is the name of where one of illyrias most known citadels were?

thats all for now, hope it helps~!

Thanks for your ideas Quantum. I picked the Scythian stables because the building model itself has already been made. Your German idea is going on the list.:goodjob:

Just curious, what will the stables be like for skythians? will they be like the mongolian ger? I ask because I don't think the skythians were ever really sedentary, hence the downfall of their median empire? also, good job, nice to see this getting done! and a note on the Thengaz, just to helopyou model it, it won't be too hard as it was little more than a meeting place with a border of stones.

Good luck with this!

I couldn't model anything if my life depended on it. All I can do is XML's. And about the Scythians. They were the second Horse mounted nomadic type people, the first being the Cimmerians. The Median Empire was an empire of a Persian like people, not Scythians, but at the apex of Scythian power the Median Empire was under their sphere of influence. The stable would probably be like the Mongol Ger.

I know the median empire was different and that they skythians were nomadic, however, didn't they, for a brief period, rule an empire around the medes, until their slaves supposedly revolted? That is, atleast according to herodotus, book IV in the histories, hence my question =/

anyways, I should probably put this thread back on track
perhaps getians could have a unique holy site building, perhaps using the same model? a "shine to Zalmoxis"? Zalmoxis was the supreme god of the getians/dacians, and possibly a sky-god(?). the shrine could give a bonus to exp for troops trained as the dacians/getians believed in the immortality of the soul, which probably made their troops braver.

also, incase anyone cares to model a thengaz, You may just want to remove the monolith from "holy site"
that'll leave you with a stone circle and some grass

Hmm... Hw about the immortal shrine? I want to leave the gods out of this;) . That would make it more temple like than holy site like. The Scythians did have an empire but the Medes did revolt I think.

just some suggestions:
Gemans and later the norse had a unique kind of court, the thengaz, it was where the tribal elders would meet to decide laws, perhaps this for a unique german building?

Lydians: their wealth came fromt he region, its gold etc, not from trade so perhaps a forgew of some sort, similar to mali's mint perhaps?

scythians, both ethnic and literal, are also known as "the burial mound civilization" because of a number of various burial cairns and such scattered about their lands that held skythian artifacts, so perhaps their unique building could be a unique burial mound, perhapsone that gives an extra + to culture?

Illyrians, I think that "illyrian citadel" is an excellent idea,perhaps make thistheir unique building and rename the wonder to "citadel of ___" where ____ is the name of where one of illyrias most known citadels were?

thats all for now, hope it helps~!
Thats a good idea about the Illyrian Citadel becoming a unique building for the Illyrians ... it fits better than as a wonder! Now I've just got to come up with an Illyrian word to represent it. Give me time...

The Illyrian Citadel is also the UB in my First Peoples mod. If you can come up with a name that would be fantastic. Idea for Tartessians after some research, Tartessian dock, giving +1 Trade routes or maybe free tin since Tartessians were known for obtaining tin through sea trade routes. Still no idea for Iberians or Medians.:confused:

Alright, rename the Illyrian Citadel to "Kala" ; it means castle. The particular Illyrian citadel model is Gjergj Kastrioti's fortress at Kruja, Kala t'Krujes, which was built on the found of an Illyrian citadel. :)

I love the idea of tatessians having docks, but maybe a forge could also be considered aswell? something like +1 happiness for silver resource? I suggest this because tartessians were renowned for their silver? or you could go with a unique monument (based upon the enigmatic "lady of elx" bust/urn") and have it provide even more culture?

and as for the babylonians, maybe unique walls of a sort? absed on such accounts as gilgamesh's 5 ( or 50?) mile wal around one of cities or of accounts of the high fortress walls that surrounded the ishtare gate and hanging gardens

Also.. there's apparently an unused mausoleum of maussilos model buried in warlords o.O

well thats all from me

Docks or forge are good ideas for the Tartessians. The Lady of the Elx is also something to consider. Another suggestion, although of mythological caracter, is "The Pillars of Hercules", a building that could either increase trade or the defense-value of the city it's built in. It should only be possible to build in a coastal city and perhaps require a harbor.
Some regard the rocks on both sides of the strait of Gibraltar to be the Pillars of Hercules, but there are tales of a long lost monument or portal that ships needed to sail trough to get to the atlantic ocean.

Ideas:

Iberians, spain has wonderful horses, it's probably a sound logical leap to assume that the early celtiberian/iberian peoples had m,astery over horses, so maybe using the aforementioned skythian stables to represent this? asfor the skythians, their UU could have the burial mound model, but with different attributes, and it would replace either the norm burial mound or graveyards, my suggestion for this is based upon skythian/kimmerian ties to kurgan/yamna roots, backup for this is most easily found at natl. geog. online Clicky! (http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0306/feature7/)
or wikipeda's (bad example I know, but search around online, this article is mostly solid) pazyryk burial article clicky! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazyryk)
i'd offer other information about ancient scyths and steppe people but you can't link a book =P

Good ideas Quantum. That leaves Media.

For babylonians you put ziggurat, that's I believe a mesopotamian religious building, may I suggest an edubba, that actually Prestidigitator is doing.

I saw Presdigitator's Edubba a while back in Rhye's thread. Oops, I should not have put ziggurat up there, I'll edit the first post maybe tommorow, no time now.

I editted the first post. As I said before, many of the current ones have placeholder names. The only civ with no clue is Media. This is a special civ as no Median records exist of their existence, with the exeption of Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, Urartian, Armenian, and Elamite texts describing their empire. No clue as to what a specific building might be. Maybe an advanced Barracks? Since Median troops in the Sassanid Persian Empire were called the Median Guard, very elite units. Used against St. Vartan at the Battle of Vartanantz. Maybe they could be of higher quality.

hmm media... Ya, I think either a special barracks that gives troops extra exp, or a court, as deiokes was seen a lawbringinger to the median tribes?

Well, if the Medians had to wait for Deiokes to bring them laws, I don't think a special court will do.:lol: I'd rather go for maybe, the Median Training Camp.

You suggest a Stone Calendar for the Britons. Since there is no *real* proof that the Henges were designed to be calendars, and thanks to precession the alignments would have been different when the were built then they are today.

My suggestion is just to call the Briton unique building the Henge, and have it replace either the Monument or Holy Site.

Wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henge

This change would likely require renaming the Stonehenge wonder to something like "The Great Henge". Alternatively, if we go the route of havign unique wonders, we could have this Great Henge appear like a national wonder and require a specific number of Henges to allow the construction of it.

Not a bad idea.:goodjob:

If I had my druthers, I'd axe all 'global' wonders, and instead give each civ in TAM a national wonder that they and only they could build. Again, if we tie the construction of those wonders to having a set number of civ-unique buildings, then that would ensure that the wonder would be civ-specific.

This way, we could ensure that Egypt gets the Pyramids, Britain the Great Henge, Babylon the Hanging Gardens, Rome a Forum Romanum, Kroisos its riches, etc...

Persia=Apothecary
Media=Median Training Camp?
Kolchis=Kolchean Harbor?
Lydia=Lydian Market?
Hittites=Hittite Lion Gate? (Walls)
Babylon=Edubba? (Library)
Egypt=Obelisk
Nubia=Nubian Pyramid
Rome=Forum
Gaul=Celtic Dun?
Germany=Thengaz
Carthage=Cothon
Greece=Odeon
Illyria=Illyrian Citadel?
Getae/Dacia=Immortal Shrine?
Phoenicia=Trading Post
Britons=Stone Calendar?
Iberian Tribes=Iberian Stables?
Tartessians=Tartessian Docks?
Scythia=Scythian Burial Mound?

What would these replace? If we go the route of a National wonder for each Civ, then what would be the "bigger" or "more important" version of these be?

I heavily disagree with Warlords' idea that the Roman Forum is a market on steroids. The Fora were centers of administration and governance, and should more accurately replace the courthouse.

I would propose that a Forum Romanum national wonder reduce unhappiness in all cities by 1 (to reflect a single unified body of law)

If I had my druthers, I'd axe all 'global' wonders, and instead give each civ in TAM a national wonder that they and only they could build. Again, if we tie the construction of those wonders to having a set number of civ-unique buildings, then that would ensure that the wonder would be civ-specific.

This way, we could ensure that Egypt gets the Pyramids, Britain the Great Henge, Babylon the Hanging Gardens, Rome a Forum Romanum, Kroisos its riches, etc...

While I'm happy to see your new ideas, I can't say that I like this one. TAM is alternate history -- not actual history. Part of what I find appealing is pretending that Lydia becomes the dominate power, building Hanging Gardens, a grand forum, etc. In my opinion, this proposal goes past adding flavor to the different civilizations and starts railroading them down a certain path.

the original list copy-pasted with my thoughts on what they could replace:
Persia=Apothecary- same as warlords
Media=Median Training Camp?- stables/ barracks
Kolchis=Kolchean Harbor?- docks
Lydia=Lydian Market?- market?
Hittites=Hittite Lion Gate? (Walls)(( already listed))
Babylon=Edubba? (Library)(( already listed))
Egypt=Obelisk- same as warlords
Nubia=Nubian Pyramid- obelisk/ holy site?
Rome=Forum-courthouse
Gaul=Celtic Dun? - fortress
Germany=Thengaz - court
Carthage=Cothon same as warlords
Greece=Odeon- same as warlords
Illyria=Illyrian Citadel?- fortress
Getae/Dacia=Immortal Shrine?- holy site
Phoenicia=Trading Post- docks
Britons=Stone Calendar? ???
Iberian Tribes=Iberian Stables? stables
Tartessians=Tartessian Docks? docks
Scythia=Scythian Burial Mound? burial mound

Illyria=Illyrian Citadel?- fortress
"Kala" is the unique name.

O yeah. Forgot to change that in the first post, I'll do that now...

While I'm happy to see your new ideas, I can't say that I like this one. TAM is alternate history -- not actual history. Part of what I find appealing is pretending that Lydia becomes the dominate power, building Hanging Gardens, a grand forum, etc. In my opinion, this proposal goes past adding flavor to the different civilizations and starts railroading them down a certain path.

I understand your objections, but I take the approach of the Romans -- If you want the wonder, conquer the city that has built it... :) There's alot to be said for enhancing the flavour of individual civs, and while I applaud what Sid has done, Vanilla Civ just doesn't diferentiate them al to well.

O yeah. Forgot to change that in the first post, I'll do that now...
Kala, not "Kala castle." Kala means "castle."

I meant that it replaces castle.

I understand your objections, but I take the approach of the Romans -- If you want the wonder, conquer the city that has built it... :) There's alot to be said for enhancing the flavour of individual civs, and while I applaud what Sid has done, Vanilla Civ just doesn't diferentiate them al to well.

I agree. I think it would be nice to differentiate between...

1. Unique wonders, like the Colosseum, which only Rome could build.

2. Semi-unique wonders, like the pyramids, which would most easilly be built by Egypt, but could also be built by Nubia/Kush or even--at a much higher cost--Mesopotamian civs (since a pyramid is basically a huge, finely stepped ziggurat with smoothed sides).

3. Generic wonders, with names like 'Legendary Gardens' or 'The Great Library,' which could reasonably have been built by many different civs.

Having this unique + generic combination would allow better differentiation of civs, but at the same time keep that wonderful element of the race to be the first to build Wonder X.

My .02c on unique buildings for the Romans and Germanics:

For the Romans, the basilica. The basilica was the administrative centre of a typical Western Roman city. It was also, outside core Roman territory, a great symbol of Romanness. Basically, if a city had a basilica, then its inhabitants knew that it was a Roman city, governed by Roman law and a centre of Roman culture—unlike the various minor towns and villages that might have surrounded it.

For the Germanics (Germany, Goths, etc.), the mead hall. The early Germanics were not known for their architecture, their art or their literature; they were known for one thing alone—their prowess on the battlefield. Unlike their Celtic neighbours, they inflicted a horrendous defeat upon Rome when the legions came to conquer Germania as they had conquered Gaul. For centuries, the Germanics were feared as raiders and coveted as mercenaries. With time, they eventually assumed the defence of the Western (and to some extent the Eastern) Roman Empire, and then later took over government of the Western Empire, conquering all before them.
And what was at the heart of this militarism? The relationship between lord and warriors. Loyalty to one’s lord was the supreme virtue, and in return for this loyalty, one’s lord was expected to win glory and gifts for his followers. And what was most symbolic of this relationship between lord and warriors? The mead hall. This hall was a public display of the lord’s wealth (and thus his success in battle—for this is where wealth came from) and his glorious reputation. It was also the place where he would feast his warriors and, often, distribute his gifts to them. It was also frequently the place where his warriors would swear their loyalty to him.
I much prefer the mead hall to the *thengaz. The truth is that Germanic societies showed a huge variety of systems of government. The *thengaz only existed in some Germanic cultures during some time periods, and in reality, it was simply a council of potentates/elders, which is really not very unique—this sort of council can be found in many different cultures under many different names. Sure, it had its own unique Germanic flavour, but that’s not enough, IMO, to make it special. The idea that the *thengaz is the heart of modern democracy is really a Romantic Victorian/Edwardian notion that no longer enjoys widespread support.

I like the Mead hall. Make it fearsome. In Fall from Heaven, there is a +10% loyalty promotion. Any chance of having the Mead Hall provide that? I don't know if that is possible, but it would be cool. Promotions that don't require XP are quite powerful.

My .02c on unique buildings for the Romans and Germanics:

For the Romans, the basilica. The basilica was the administrative centre of a typical Western Roman city. It was also, outside core Roman territory, a great symbol of Romanness. Basically, if a city had a basilica, then its inhabitants knew that it was a Roman city, governed by Roman law and a centre of Roman culture—unlike the various minor towns and villages that might have surrounded it.

For the Germanics (Germany, Goths, etc.), the mead hall. The early Germanics were not known for their architecture, their art or their literature; they were known for one thing alone—their prowess on the battlefield. Unlike their Celtic neighbours, they inflicted a horrendous defeat upon Rome when the legions came to conquer Germania as they had conquered Gaul. For centuries, the Germanics were feared as raiders and coveted as mercenaries. With time, they eventually assumed the defence of the Western (and to some extent the Eastern) Roman Empire, and then later took over government of the Western Empire, conquering all before them.
And what was at the heart of this militarism? The relationship between lord and warriors. Loyalty to one’s lord was the supreme virtue, and in return for this loyalty, one’s lord was expected to win glory and gifts for his followers. And what was most symbolic of this relationship between lord and warriors? The mead hall. This hall was a public display of the lord’s wealth (and thus his success in battle—for this is where wealth came from) and his glorious reputation. It was also the place where he would feast his warriors and, often, distribute his gifts to them. It was also frequently the place where his warriors would swear their loyalty to him.
I much prefer the mead hall to the *thengaz. The truth is that Germanic societies showed a huge variety of systems of government. The *thengaz only existed in some Germanic cultures during some time periods, and in reality, it was simply a council of potentates/elders, which is really not very unique—this sort of council can be found in many different cultures under many different names. Sure, it had its own unique Germanic flavour, but that’s not enough, IMO, to make it special. The idea that the *thengaz is the heart of modern democracy is really a Romantic Victorian/Edwardian notion that no longer enjoys widespread support.
There is a model for a forum in Warlords so I doubt they are going to make an entirely new model when they already have a professional one.

From my own ideas, like my mod, I have a system in which each culture group has their own unique buildings, in my case the culture groups are religion groups as well as unique buildings for each civ. Unfortunately I don't think that would quite work with TAM. It would be a stretch I guess. I think that on the major civs like rome and greece theres just too much choices for ubs like basilicas, agoras, forums, acropolis.:sad:

As I said before, the ones on the list are only placeholders until we get the mod ready for Warlords. After that I will read all of your suggestions carefully and decide whether to include them or not, I think the current list is a fine placeholder.:)

I seem to have overlooked something... What are these buildings going to do?

I seem to have overlooked something... What are these buildings going to do?
That's the easy part accept for ballancing.:sad:
Post the ones you are confused on what the benefits should be and I could help.

Instead of going straight to picking unique buildings for each Civ .. I think you should first list them out and determine what trait of each Civ you want to emphasize with the Unique Building .. Once you have a list of all the Civs and what the buildings should do .. then you move on to assigning specific buildings to Civs .. I think the most important thing is that they are useful and not unbalancing ..

When deciding what the unique buildings should accent you also need to take into consideration what traits the civ already has .. For example if Rome is already organized .. It would not be much help to give them a better courthouse .. If a Civ were Creative .. then an Aqueduct that gives an extra 2 Culture would not be useful ..

anyways ..

instead of starting with a list of Civs and buildings .. it might work better with a list of Civs and what historical traits come to mind that you can accentuate with a Unique Buildings .. Then you narrow it down to one per Civ .. Then you design the actual buildings .

Example ..

Illyrian - City Defense , Seafaring , Unit Defense
Roman - Organization , Infastructure , Conquest
Lydian - Wealth
Medes - Organization , Archery (military tactics)
Iberian - Horsemanship
Hittites - Metalworking
Babylon- Culture , Research
Egypt - Production ,
Mycenae - Seafaring , Unit Defense


Those are just some examples .. may not even all be accurate .. I should have done some homework before opening my mouth .. Just thought I would share that I think you should start with a list of what you want the buildings to do .. before worrying about actual buildings ..

I have posted my ideas for effects on the first page. Only the Henge has nothing next to it as I do not know what it could give, maybe calendar centering? Extra culture? Happiness? Druid priest?

Henge: +1 happiness (they seemed to really like building these, for whatever reason).

For the Lydian Market it does seem overpowered: +30%+5% for every luxury resource?

Given that the Phonecians were master traders, perhaps something a bit more for their harbor? Perhaps in addition to +1 trade route, they can build merchant vessels at half cost?

Don't walls normally only give 25%? The Lion's Gate seems a bit too much.

Free Tin resource doesn't seem right for a unique building. Perhaps +10% to all trade routes for every type of metal the owner controls?

The biggest concern for me about TAM Warlords is going to be the Unique Buildings. Here is the list of what I have come up with.

Persia=Apothecary Warlords effect
Media=Median Training Camp? (barracks) +5 exp.
Kolchis=Kolchean Harbor? more trade route
Lydia=Lydian Market? +50% wealth +5% for every luxury resource (overpowered a bit?)
Hittites=Hittite Lion Gate? (Walls) +2 culture 75% city defense
Babylon=Edubba? (Library) +40% research
Egypt=Obelisk Warlords effect
Nubia=Nubian Pyramid more culture?
Rome=Forum Warlords effect
Gaul=Celtic Dun? (walls) Warlords effect
Germany=Thengaz (court) less production cost than normal court since it was just a ring of rocks
Carthage=Cothon Warlords effect
Greece=Odeon Warlords effect
Illyria=Kala (Castle) +100% city defense +1 exp for all units trained
Getae/Dacia=Immortal Shrine? (holy site) +1 happiness, +1 culture?
Phoenicia=Trading Post (harbor) +1 trade routes
Britons=Henge? (monument) No idea really on the effect
Iberian Tribes=Iberian Stables? +2 extra horse exp.?
Tartessians=Tartessian Docks? giving free tin resource?
Scythia=Scythian Burial Mound? +2 experience to horses?
Every other civ I forgot=?

Any ideas are welcome.

For the Goths, perhaps the Mead Hall?

Replaces Tavern, +2 xp or free combat 1???

I think the Kala looks a little too powerful.

For scythian burial ground if you're going to give free exp to mounted units why not change it to scythian stables?

Somebody told me I should change the Scythian stables to Scythian burial ground. I wanted to focus on the Scythian cavalry superiority, so I guess it should be changed back.

For the Goths, perhaps the Mead Hall?

Replaces Tavern, +2 xp or free combat 1???

I think the Kala looks a little too powerful.
You're right, lol, I don't know who came up with those stats, but if you reduce the defense to an additional 10% above normal I think it would be a little more balanced.

I'm not sure I'm entirely happy with this, though, so I'll try to rethink the Illyrian UB...

What does everyone think of having 2 UBs? For the Illyrians the Kala is cool, but I'de really like to have the Kuvend, most likely a courthouse replacement, as well.

Kuvend, in Albania, was a form of exercising one's power in regard to community decisions that might affect one's family or self. Literally translated as conversation, its meaning is closer to convention. The kuvend derives from ancient times; what kept it alive for the last 500 years was the refusal of Northern Albanians to accept the legal system provided by the Ottoman Empire.

Kuvend's most important contribution to the Albanian Heritage is thousands of years of the Albanians assembling to change, manipulate and improve the Canon of Albania, especially its two more advanced versions, The Canon of Mountains in Malsia e Madhe, Rugova, and Gjakova and Canon of Lek Dukagjini in Mirdita, Zadrima, and Dukagjini. The Kuvend ended with the independence of Albania from the Ottoman Empire in 1912. Since then the Kuvend takes place at the Palace of Kuvendi Popullor (The Palace of People's Convention) and is the equivalent of the congress.
The Kuvend actually derives from Illyrian times and had to do with the Illyrian tribal chieftains retaining self-rule while acknowledging the overlordship of the Caesar. Those mountain Illyrians were not subdued.

EDIT: Here we go:For about four centuries, Roman rule brought the Illyrian-populated lands economic and cultural advancement and ended most of the enervating clashes among local tribes. The Illyrian mountain clansmen retained local authority but pledged allegiance to the emperor and acknowledged the authority of his envoys. During a yearly holiday honoring the Caesars, the Illyrian mountaineers swore loyalty to the emperor and reaffirmed their political rights. A form of this tradition, known as the kuvend, has survived to the present day in northern Albania.

You're right, lol, I don't know who came up with those stats, Hey, I did!:lol: Anyway, I just came up with a quick first draft before I had to get to class, so I expected it to be a little (wayyy) unbalanced. I'll think about it and post some changes on the front page. Two UBs... Hmm... Maybe a later version, I'd ask Laurino, the new leader.

I'd say let's start with 1. Of course all of the civs are cool and we could probably come up with 2, but it adds complexity, extra work, extra balancing...

UB will be in 1.98, so I implemented them for now, but in a "basic" way. All names can be changed, as are all "effects", since 1.98 is not completed.

So here's the list:

1-Persia, Apothecary: +2 health, 15% commerce, opens 2 merchant slots, +1 health with Wine/Fruits/Olives/Opium

2-Media, Training Camp: +5 exp. to land units

3-Kolchis, Harbor: +3 exp. to naval units, +2 trade routes, +1 health with Clam/Crab/Fish

4-Lydia, Market: +1 happiness, +3 gold, +1 happiness with Ivory/Gold/Silver/Fur/Opium/Amber

5- Hittite, Lion Gates: +2 culture, +50% defense

6- Babylon, Edubba: +25% research

7- Egypt, Obelisk: +3 culture, +1 happiness

8- Nubia, Royal Tomb: +4 culture, +1 happiness

9- Rome, Forum: +25% more great people emergence, +30% commerce, +1 happiness with Ivory/Gold/Silver/Fur/Opium/Amber

10- Gaul, Dun: +50% defense, free Guerilla1 promotion

11- Germanic Tribes, Thengaz: -25% maintenance, reduced cost (60), +1 happiness

12- Carthage, Cothon: +1 trade route, +60% commerce per trade routes

13- Mycenaean, Odeon: +2 happiness, +1 happiness with Dye, +4 culture

14- Illyria, Kala: +1 culture, +50% defense, +2 exp. to land units

15- Dacia, Immortal Shrine: +2 culture, +1 happiness

16- Phoenicia, Trading Post: +1 trade routes +1 health with Fish/Crab/Clam, +10% commerce with Ivory/Gold/Silver/Fur/Wine/Gems/Amber

17- Britons, Henge: +2 culture, +2 happiness

18- Iberia, Stables: +3 exp for Cavalry units

19- Tartessia, Docks: +2 exp for naval units, +1 trade route, +10% commerce per metal

20- Scythia, Stables: +3 exp for Cavalry units

btw, stables are in now, as a normal building, like in Warlords

UB seems OK to me, but I think they should improve gameplay balance among civs.

Starting with 1.96 through 1.97, I'm playing games with every civ on normal maps in a conservative and not-warmonger style, let civs to develope themselves as much as possible.

The average of 5 games is:

Points Civ
2.349 Ham
2.210 Hat
2.141 Eet
2.025 Arg
1.802 Did
1.645 Dec
1.450 Ver
1.402 Par
1.380 Cre
1.318 JuC
1.307 Aga
1.068 Teu
958 Hir
857 Arm
657 Sup
354 Vir

It's a "weighted" average, because, for each game, points don't include my civ and all civs losing cities in wars vs me.

Average shows better civs than others, so UBs effect should consider that.

I'll continue to improve this stat playing every civ ;)

Nice info!

Were these games played on pre-made maps, or normal rdm ones?

I think there is a strong -- good -- idea that pre-made maps should be unbalanced. You want Rome and Egypt to be strong, for example.

Normal pre-made map.
I'll plan to play one game for each civ, 16 in total.
If I succeed in finishing my Hiram CTD game, I'll reach 6 games :)

PS
Playing Hiram, I didn't see any sea resource near phoenician coasts or Cyprus, so there wasn't any strategic reason for going towards fishing and shipping techs early.
I think it's for balance purpose, but it's very weird also

I think there is a strong -- good -- idea that pre-made maps should be unbalanced. You want Rome and Egypt to be strong, for example.

Yes I agree, but UB effects shouldn't raise the civ gap further

The better civs are balanced on a Random map, the better it is... The scenarios will make better civ with their own settings... It would be nice though to have a Med map that is almost "balanced".

I'll work on getting Civilopedia entries done for the Buildings

The courthouse idea sounds good for the Germanics; alternatively they could have a Brewery replacing Winery. (Although IMO the Winery is kind of an oddball building as currently designed, having a smaller benefit than earlier buildings.) At least from the point of view of Roman observers didn't their whole culture revolve around beer?

The courthouse idea sounds good for the Germanics; alternatively they could have a Brewery replacing Winery. (Although IMO the Winery is kind of an oddball building as currently designed, having a smaller benefit than earlier buildings.) At least from the point of view of Roman observers didn't their whole culture revolve around beer?


The Germanic building replaces Public Courts, not Courthouses;)

And for the Winery, it generates way more commerce since 1.97... Should it be "boosted" even more?

> the Winery, it generates way more commerce since 1.97
(No opinion here, probably holding out until Warlords to look at the game again... Sorry for my uninformed suggestion...)