I really dont know much about the shiem other then they are bent on world destruction. I dont know if they get all the units in the game but i think they do.

But they have no flavor only one UU if you dont count the raven. And they have no special abilities i can think of.

When will the shieam be spiced up?

I think the official word is 'Fire'.

I think the official word is 'Fire'.

Then my question is why are they a playable civ while the svartlafar, illians, and mercurians are not?

shieam are prolly just waiting for new art, most UUs are graphical, or the specials get added after the art is available.

Their trait combination makes them more then enough playable already. :P

Their trait combination makes them more then enough playable already. :P

I dunno. I like spiritual alot but summoner is kind of dull. Maybe thats because i never finished a game and the best mages i had were adepts....

I meant the other leader, summoner + arcane.

I meant the other leader, summoner + arcane.

Summoner and arcane are unit specific traits.

I tend to hate unit specific traits.

Summoner and arcane are unit specific traits.

I tend to hate unit specific traits.

Well, sheaim are mage oriented. And they will be even more so once they have more flavor.

This is off topic but i wish lanun didnt get -1 to farms, otherwise id play them. Just seems kinda lame.

This is off topic but i wish lanun didnt get -1 to farms, otherwise id play them. Just seems kinda lame.

Well, they get +1 food from water tiles, isnt that good enough? With a lighthouse thats 3 food from a coastal tile and 4 food from a inland lake.

they get tons of food from water, the last thing they would ever need to build is farms... the -1 food from farms is perfect since it makes them more coastal oriented, dont see how thats a problem, if it is, just play kurioates or something

they get tons of food from water, the last thing they would ever need to build is farms... the -1 food from farms is perfect since it makes them more coastal oriented, dont see how thats a problem, if it is, just play kurioates or something

I guess. But then again regular farms on grassland get 4 food with sanitation adn 5 food on flood plains.

BTW i have not tried Lanun or kuriotates OR GRIGORI yet.

The penalties for each of those civs are a bit much for me. ;)

I guess. But then again regular farms on grassland get 4 food with sanitation adn 5 food on flood plains.

Yes, but the water tiles give 2 gold for Falamir, and 3 gold for the other leader.

Maybe thats because i never finished a game and the best mages i had were adepts....
I would say that that is definately why you don't like summoner, it will do nothing until you have conjuerer or summoners.
BTW i have not tried Lanun or kuriotates OR GRIGORI yet. Sure, they each have harsh penalties, but also bonuses that more than compensate. Grigori are one of my favorite civs. In fact, there is a thread accusing them of being overpowered just a few spots below this one!

I dunno. I like spiritual alot but summoner is kind of dull. Maybe thats because i never finished a game and the best mages i had were adepts....

If you arent using conjurors then theres really no point to playing a summoner race. It would be nice though if the Sheaim at least had a unique conjuror or something since its kind of thier main thing.

My only gripe with them is the eater of dreams special ability is only useful on defense. I always envisioned the Sheaim attacking other people with their most powerful summoners, not sitting back on defense with them.

Now, if the eater of dreams could eat the population of a city they're attacking... but still, I like their mechanic. I really don't have an opinion one way or the other about them.

ok ..... the shiam .....

things of note ...

pyre zombies str 4 unit that you get with blonzeworking . if a pyre zombie loses a fight they explode doing collateral damage to all the units in the tile of the guy they attacked. this is a wicked useful seige tactic. (you still get axemen btw)

eater of dreams the meanest badest summoner in the game. you start with access to fire mana so that means elementals which i think off the top of my head are str 10 move 2. personally i learn necromancy and get death mana. early game skeles from every adept you have (make lots of adepts) is very useful. then as you progress you move into nightmares , then wraiths.

tactics....
-- spell extension is > then combat ... not very debateable from the shiam perspective.breakdown ....
----- skeletons - str 3 move 3 (permanent 1 per adept at any time)
----- nightmares - str 4 move 4 (great defensive unit due to fear)
----- wraiths - str 10 move 4 ( eater of dreams unit )

now ....
--- every summoner can and should have 3 nightmares in play ....
--- nightmares and wraiths can attack enemy cities that are 12 moves away from their originating cities.

now .... the eater of dreams .... gods to be feared...
starting in your city .....(assume 1 eater of dreams) summon every last wraith you can (size 8 city shoudl give you 5 wraiths). plan on taking a reletively close city (within a move 8). your barage of 5 wraiths will get to attack the enemy city at the end of thier 2nd turn, and any surviving ones get to attack again on the 3rd turn. keep in mind ... every turn you can summon another wraith to follow the pack. once you have taken the city summon another pack (eating the population) and ehad to the next city.

basically once you get eaters of dreams , you are like locusts headed to armegedonn .... enjoy the carnage and have fun with it.

I dont think pyre zombie is unique to the Sheaim.

Also from numerous past games ive now concluded that nightmares from a conjuror with a summoner race are a waste. You should be using chaos marauders instead. Much more powerful and their downside is negligible with the Sheaim since you can usually get them so far away before they risk going barbarian. Nightmares are still good though especially if you have lots of ritualists.

I dont think pyre zombie is unique to the Sheaim.

Also from numerous past games ive now concluded that nightmares from a conjuror with a summoner race are a waste. You should be using chaos marauders instead. Much more powerful and their downside is negligible with the Sheaim since you can usually get them so far away before they risk going barbarian. Nightmares are still good though especially if you have lots of ritualists.

Pyre Zombies are unique to the Sheiam, yes. They are unique-unique in that they aren't "just" a replacement unit for something else, they are a whole unique unit. Like Vampires are for the Calabim, etc.

They explode when they die. That's about all that's special with them.

Cheers!

Pyre Zombies are unique to the Sheiam, yes. They are unique-unique in that they aren't "just" a replacement unit for something else, they are a whole unique unit. Like Vampires are for the Calabim, etc.

Like vampires were for the Calabim, you mean. Now they're macemen replacements with all the abilities that we've come to know and love.

Like vampires were for the Calabim, you mean. Now they're macemen replacements with all the abilities that we've come to know and love.

Really now? Guess I have been slacking off in keeping up to date lately.

Cheers.

Os-Gabella is one of my favorite leaders, and I'd love to see the Sheaim get some more love.

In terms of ideas...

Os-Gabella's story seems very similar to (and perhaps inspired by?) the Hebrew story of Lilith from the Alpha Beta of Ben Sira. (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/humm/Topics/Lilith/alphabet.html) I'd love to see an emphasis on Gabella as the fallen woman - perhaps she's done more to try to create a 'family' besides adopting Alexis and Flauros? Demonic children of some sort would be neat, and in keeping with the Lilith myth.

Os-Gabella is one of my favorite leaders, and I'd love to see the Sheaim get some more love.

In terms of ideas...

Os-Gabella's story seems very similar to (and perhaps inspired by?) the Hebrew story of Lilith from the Alpha Beta of Ben Sira. (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/humm/Topics/Lilith/alphabet.html) I'd love to see an emphasis on Gabella as the fallen woman - perhaps she's done more to try to create a 'family' besides adopting Alexis and Flauros? Demonic children of some sort would be neat, and in keeping with the Lilith myth.

Yeap, Os-Gabella is based directly on Lilith. The sheaim will getting attention in Fire and we will see what comes of her.

Good job on recognizing Lilith, its probably one of the most obscure references in the mod (after the engineer names), at least among people that play computer games.

I'm a college student considering a minor in religion, so. That kind of imagery pops right out at me. :)

surprised I didnt notice it, as I just read the Lilith legend, as told by a guest of a German concentration camp, the other day in "If This is a Man" by Primo Levi.

Very interesting.

Hmm...?

I thought the Os-Gabella/Lilith thing was really obvious...

Me too, Endovior, but I'm kind of a religion/mythology/folklore nerd so I dunno!

Yeap, Os-Gabella is based directly on Lilith. The sheaim will getting attention in Fire and we will see what comes of her.

Good job on recognizing Lilith, its probably one of the most obscure references in the mod (after the engineer names), at least among people that play computer games.

Acknowledgeing the proper source of the Lilith Mythos.
I must say...

Will the sheiam start project nerv? To bring about the second impact, and fight the angels to prevent Gods ultimate judgement of humanity, only to be screwed over by a 14 year old boy with emotional intimacy problems?

If so, sign me up.
-Qes

ok ..... the shiam .....

things of note ...

pyre zombies str 4 unit that you get with blonzeworking . if a pyre zombie loses a fight they explode doing collateral damage to all the units in the tile of the guy they attacked. this is a wicked useful seige tactic. (you still get axemen btw)

Bah, I'm playing a game as the Shieam and I didn't build any pyre zombies because I never saw a mention of their exploding thing. They looked just like axmen without the bonus vs. melee so they seemed like a waste to me. This game really, really needs to be documented better.

But without the pyre zombies and without the eater of dreams (when do those appear? what do they do?) I am kicking all sorts of ass with the Shieam. That trait combination is simply deadly. Once I got conjuring I went on the war path and destroyed my neighbor in like 4 turns.

Half a dozen conjurers is all you really need to take down a whole civ. That is the power of the Shieam. Just make a few adepts early in the game, and that is all you really need. Spend the rest of your time building up your civ and let the handful of mages & conjurers destroy the world. Almost too easy. Haven't even gotten to summoners yet, but the game will be a joke by then.

Eater of Dreams = Summoners for the sheiam. They can eat the pop of one of your own cities to regain their ability to cast.

rofl , ya , bite the bullet and get your summoners. if you ahve conjurers then you cant be very far from summoners aka eaters of dreams. then you will go insane .... summon a wraith , eat a pop , summon a wraith , eat a pop , summon a wraith ........ personally i think the eater of dreams is one of the reasons that twincast was made hero only.

as a 2ndary tactic with shiam .... you know that the ashen viel ritualists can sumon also ? the trade off with them is you lose spell extension but gain unholy taint and ring/pillar of fire. the reason i mention this is you can only have 3 eater of dreams (T4 summoner) however you can have 6 of the T4 religious types ( ALL of which can do level 3 summons )

Bah, I'm playing a game as the Shieam and I didn't build any pyre zombies because I never saw a mention of their exploding thing. They looked just like axmen without the bonus vs. melee so they seemed like a waste to me. This game really, really needs to be documented better.

But without the pyre zombies and without the eater of dreams (when do those appear? what do they do?) I am kicking all sorts of ass with the Shieam. That trait combination is simply deadly. Once I got conjuring I went on the war path and destroyed my neighbor in like 4 turns.

Half a dozen conjurers is all you really need to take down a whole civ. That is the power of the Shieam. Just make a few adepts early in the game, and that is all you really need. Spend the rest of your time building up your civ and let the handful of mages & conjurers destroy the world. Almost too easy. Haven't even gotten to summoners yet, but the game will be a joke by then.

Heya Ozzy, good to see you. Yeah I agree with you on both counts:

1. The strongest feature of the Sheaim is their traits. We know the Sheaim dont have the UU's other civs have but we fell the traits more than make up for it. If anything the biggest design problem with the Sheaim is that we have been to liberal with the sharing of the Summoning trait with other leaders (ie: Thessa).

2. Definitly needs to be better documented. Its hard to do while we are making changes but it is always getting better. I will make sure the Pyre Zombies are better described in 0.16.

Yea, my first two games I played a builder with the seafaring civ, and the huge city civ (i forget their names) since I wasn't yet familiar with the whole spell system. So I hardly went to war at all, but trying out the Sheaim, I'm liking the spells.

Great tip on the ritualists, daladinn, I'll give that a shot.

Can the dream eaters eat down a city to 0?

Ok cool. Can they eat down a city to 0?

No, the city has to be population 4 or greater.

once your hooked on the ritualist you will start laughing with me every time you hear " the ashen viel is weak and needs help" . my issue is atm the 3 strongest civs that point toward the viel are shieam,elves,elohim. its odd that 2 of the 3 best suited for the "evil" religion are considered "good" (ya the elves are nuetral but they feel good).

once your hooked on the ritualist you will start laughing with me every time you hear " the ashen viel is weak and needs help" . my issue is atm the 3 strongest civs that point toward the viel are shieam,elves,elohim. its odd that 2 of the 3 best suited for the "evil" religion are considered "good" (ya the elves are nuetral but they feel good).
Why do you say Elohim?

If anything the biggest design problem with the Sheaim is that we have been to liberal with the sharing of the Summoning trait with other leaders (ie: Thessa).
I'd be for giving Keelyn a modified version of Insanity that allowed summoner trait to pop up.

would be nice to have a female with insanity :D

would be nice to have a female with insanity :D

Thats like saying it would be nice for Cows to moo.
-Qes

That's not a metaphor particularly chosen to gain you any female admirers. :mischief:

That's not a metaphor particularly chosen to gain you any female admirers. :mischief:

It was too easy to pass up and YOU know it.
-Qes

EDIT: I just think you're bitter you didnt get to it first.

Thats like saying it would be nice for Cow's to moo.
-Qes

You have much wisdom. :bowdown:

elohim have a huge advantage that the others dont get if your looking to go toward the advanced religions. at priesthood you can get monks (str6 mv3) so if you do the techs there are 2 paths of choice

1, arcane chants , education , mysticism , philosophy , priesthood --> way of

this allows your cottages to push up and i tend to get my first monk around turn 50 on fast (right when orthus shows up).

2, arcane chants , mysticism , education , philosophy , priesthood -->way of

this allows you to build a great sage and pop him for priesthood. with the phi trait its only 13 turns for the sage.

both paths also allow for a bit of synergy. with the civics available you can end up with +5 happy as soon as you get the religion as well as a 20% bonus to research.

now what i tend to do is as soon as i get philosophy and my great sage i start on my great prophet (generic temple) this way i can build the buildign as soon as i get teh viel.

once i have the viel i start researching fanatism (if no reagents) or religious law (if i have reagents). for building its our hero (mental blank)(if no reagents) or temple ->ritualist->book -> ritualist pump

typically i can get the book (i force it) the turn after i get either fanaticism or religous law..... this pops me right into picking the techs for my T4 priests or T4 eidolons mardero

now another nice synergy of this is hopefully if you have reagents your paying attention and switch civics to give your priests xp on creation. if you do get unholy taint and cast it right away. you will find that it wont take long for you to get them to level 6 for your t4 priests of choice.

sidenotes,
-- inquisitors can both remove extra religions AND convert human units to your cause
-- by using your basic str2 disciple you can get medic 1 for your priests (timing issue vs the free xp on creation)
-- fanatacism also gave you a very nice hero (corlindale(sp)) he can add research and culture to your city as well as teraforming your terrain.