In a fit of curiosity, I decided to take a look at those religious tier-3 units that I so often neglect. The results of my studies are pretty interesting (to me), so I thought I'd put them down.

Fellowship of Leaves: N/A

I suppose I can see the logic of not giving these guys a religious unit with Fanatacism like the others. As their Disciple of Leaves upgrades to a Ranger or a Longbowman, I've included them for reference.

Runes of Kilmorph: Paramander- 7805 :science:*; 6 Strength, 1 Move; 120 :hammers:; requires copper and a Temple of Kilmorph.

A perfectly normal tier-3 religious unit. Not really anything to note here, except that they specifically require copper where two other religious units can make due with any metal at all.

Octopus Overlords: Stygian Guard- 7805 :science:*; 7 Strength, 1 Move; 120 :hammers:; requires a metal and a Temple of the Overlords.

Stronger than the other units, and they start with march (there's a pedia error in there, by the way), but that keeps in tradition with the Overlords' pattern, as started by the Drown.

The Ashen Veil: Diseased Corpses- 4235 :science:*; 6 Strength, 1 Move; 120 :hammers:; no building or resource requirements.

Yikes. These guys cost a lot less beakers, and have a potentially debilitating effect to go with it. I understand these guys are to be rebalanced in .016, but keep in mind that they don't require fanatacism like the others.

The Order: Crusader- 9555 :science:*; 6 Strength, 1 Move, 120 :hammers:; requires a metal and a Temple of the Order.

Ouch. The high cost to get the Order in the first place combines with Fanatacism in a bad way. Almost 10000 beakers to get these guys, and there isn't much special about them.

* It's very worth noting that I'm adding the cost of founding the religion to the cost of the unit. However, only the Diseased Corpses explicitly require the founding tech. Subtracting the cost of the founding technology, we arrive at these values:
Paramander- 6235 :science:
Stygian Guard- 6235 :science:
Diseased Corpses- 0 :science:
Crusader- 6235 :science:

I'll go ahead and leave my conclusions to the next post (tomorrow), but you should be able to predict them fairly easily. I know there's nothing really revolutionary here, but the issue does deserve some discussion, I think. The unique religious units are a big part of the flavor of this game, and they're being sadly neglected as things are. For now I'll just post the stats of Rangers and Longbowmen (tier-3 units as well) for the purpose of comparison.

Ranger- 2590 beakers; 7 Strength, 2 Moves, 120 hammers; requires a Hunting Lodge.

Longbowman- 6510 beakers; 6 Strength, 1 Move, 120 :hammers:; requires a metal and an Archery Range.

I'm fully aware that these values will be rebalanced in .016, but as I don't know exactly what they'll be, I'm posting what they currently are in .015k.

So, firstly, a general suggestion. Currently, religious tier-3 units are only one tech away from Paladins and Eidolons, if I remember correctly. Both Malevolent Designs and Righteousness are pretty expensive (3200 :science:), but as that tech also allows Sphener and Mardero, the reign of the tier-3 religious units is quite short. I know Paladins and Eidolons are national units, so Crusaders and such will always have their place, but they never have any chance to truly dominate the battlefield like macemen and rangers. I know 3200 beakers sounds like a lot, but consider that while Paladins and Eidolons cost 11005 or 12755 :science:, Archmages cost 14525 :science: and Immortals cost a whopping 29450 :science:. The religious line has too many goodies to allow tier-4 units so early.

I'm going to post what I think would be good changes for each unit now, but I believe that all of them should get a +1 base strength increase. I'd hope that making Paladins and Eidolons come later, combined with making these units a bit stronger, would mean that they'd actually get some use. They should be stronger than the standard units of their tier, both because of the flavor aspect and because they do show up later.

Diseased Corpses
I see the point of these units, but perhaps they'd do better as a late tier-2 unit, upgradable to some tier-3 unit at fanatacism?

Stygian Guard
The strongest of the tier-3 religious units, and the inherent March and potential Water Walking make them stronger. Just increasing their combat strength by one would make them a force to be feared.

Paramander
These guys don't have a lot of flavor. Right now they just come across as Crusaders with a different name. I don't know what you might have planned for them, but giving them the dwarven trait and maybe an earth spell would make them unique. Of course, I'd also support increasing their combat strength by one, in addition to that.

Crusader
They show up in new Order cities, I know. I suppose the demon slaying promotion and that fact combine to make them pretty good. I'd say increase their combat strength by one and maybe give them access to Demon Slaying II or something...

This would leave the Ashen Veil without a tier-3 unit, but maybe there's some ideas out there that could fill in the spot.

Crusaders have a high chance to spawn in new Order cities, or when capturing enemy cities where Order has already been spread. So the technology might be more expensive, but you get lots of free units for the trouble.

Runes of Kilmorph: Paramander- 7805 :science:*; 6 Strength, 1 Move; 120 :hammers:; requires copper and a Temple of Kilmorph.

A perfectly normal tier-3 religious unit. Not really anything to note here, except that they specifically require copper where two other religious units can make due with any metal at all.

Stonewardens can turn gold into copper, so I guess situations where Runes followers don't have copper would be extremely rare.

The Ashen Veil: Diseased Corpses- 4235 :science:*; 6 Strength, 1 Move; 120 :hammers:; no building or resource requirements.

Yikes. These guys cost a lot less beakers, and have a potentially debilitating effect to go with it. I understand these guys are to be rebalanced in .016, but keep in mind that they don't require fanatacism like the others.

Worthless units as is. Keep in mind they get -30% strength due to their disease. Also the Veil can't cure disease, so using this unit hurts yourself more than your enemies.


On a general note, it's pointless to compare the tech cost to get these units with the tech cost for other unit types. Following the religious branch gives you plenty of other goodies.

Worthless units as is. Keep in mind they get -30% strength due to their disease. Also the Veil can't cure disease, so using this unit hurts yourself more than your enemies.

They can with the right mana nodes, no?

mm, no, I don't think so. They can if they: build Aque Sucellus, have a leaves, etc., priest from before, or convert one with an inquisitor. (Mages or other arcane units can't cure disease... unless we want that as an ability on lifespark? hmmm...)

Failing that, they need to build other demon or undead (or summon) units to kill enemies that they have weakened with disease, or simply not get too attached to their troops.

I don't believe that undead units get the -30% from disease...

On a general note, it's pointless to compare the tech cost to get these units with the tech cost for other unit types. Following the religious branch gives you plenty of other goodies.

I'm aware of that fact, but I disagree about it being pointless. This is because the Fellowship of Leaves lacks a tier-3 unit, and the two units I listed fill in that gap for them. Just look at what their disciple upgrades to. Also, as it is a choice to follow the religious branch, and a choice that not all will take, then non-religious tier-3 units will show up before them in an otherwise equal game.

And I've updated the second post.

crusaders should definately have access to demon slaying 2... i wish more units had access to more things in general tho

I don't believe that undead units get the -30% from disease...

You believe wrong. ;)
We've already had this exchange, so hopefully this screenshot will convince you.

Btw, another cosmetic bug you can see on this screenshot. My Paladin (in Dis) sometimes shows up with warrior graphics.

crusaders should definately have access to demon slaying 2... i wish more units had access to more things in general tho

Why is it always more more more with you? I never hear "Ive had enough"
or "Im full"
or "No, i really dont need to slaughter this village merceilessly and watch all the things these people loved, burn in a great sacrifice to my eternal glory."
Never.
-Qes

EDIT: Ontopic - I think that the Vale and Order should be more counter posed, and the OO and Runes should be more terrain based. OO units should favor water and rivers, runes units should favor peaks and hills, etc. The Vale and Order simply should be realatively nasty, but especially hate each other.

You believe wrong. ;)
We've already had this exchange, so hopefully this screenshot will convince you.

Btw, another cosmetic bug you can see on this screenshot. My Paladin (in Dis) sometimes shows up with warrior graphics.

Umm you really need to report this in the bugs forum. If they get decreased stregnth from being diseased it really defeats the purpose of that unit.

EDIT: Ontopic - I think that the Vale and Order should be more counter posed, and the OO and Runes should be more terrain based. OO units should favor water and rivers, runes units should favor peaks and hills, etc. The Vale and Order simply should be realatively nasty, but especially hate each other.

I agree with you on all of that.

EDIT: Ontopic - I think that the Vale and Order should be more counter posed, and the OO and Runes should be more terrain based. OO units should favor water and rivers, runes units should favor peaks and hills, etc. The Vale and Order simply should be realatively nasty, but especially hate each other.

I really can't speak for the OO or Runes, but for the Veil and Order, I have to say that their opposition never really gets played out. Sure, some Order units get bonuses vs. demons, and sure, the Veil gets the scourge promotion, but in the off-chance that they do fight, it's with macemen and rangers. I believe that the tweaks I've described will make their tier-3 units more... useful, I guess.

But if the Diseased Corpses become tier-2 units, then what would be a good tier-3 unit for the Ashen Veil?

But if the Diseased Corpses become tier-2 units, then what would be a good tier-3 unit for the Ashen Veil?

Some kind of demon or dark knight maybe?

That was my thought on the matter. But I had another idea just now...

... wait for it...

Fallen Crusaders!
Really, wouldn't it be cool to have one of their more powerful units be traitors to the Order? Heck, I'd like it. Seems like, in this setting, you get the feeling that evil is evil and good is (mostly) good, and nothing will ever change about it.

Just another random idea.

Crusader: Gains 1 strength and the 'Purge' ability for use in cities. Automatically purges any city it captures. Gains +5 bonus experience and the Blessed promotion when killing a Fallen Crusader.

Fallen Crusader: 7 strength, has the 'Corruption' ability for use in cities. Automatically corrupts any city it captures. When killing a Crusader in combat, instead turns it into a Fallen Crusader (with -2 base strength if it had the Loyalty promotion).


Purge: 100% chance to remove the Veil, 75% chance to remove Octopus Overlords, 50% chance to remove Fellowship of Leaves, 25% chance to remove Runes of Kilmorph. Kills 25% of the population for each religion removed, or 20% per religion if the Order is also present. No effect on non-Veil holy cities.

If the target city is the Veil holy city, razes any present Stigmata on the Unborn and creates the Blaze of Glory (Identical to the Code of Junil, except it adds a fire mana instead of law.) Also spreads the order there, disregarding the fact that they can't normally coexist.


Corruption: Replace the most good-aligned religion in the city with the Veil. No effect on non-Order holy cities.

If the target city is the Order holy city, razes any present Code of Junil and creates the Ashen Tome (Identical to Stigmata on the Unborn, except it adds a death mana instead of entropy.) Also spreads the veil there, disregarding the fact that they can't normally coexist.


These changes would make them better militarily, and also encourage starting a crusade to capture the opposing holy city.

What you're suggesting, BCalchet, would make a cool scenario. Bit heavy-handed stuff for all games though.

Ashen Vale can get Cure Disease when they are able to promote High Priests. BTW, Diseased Corpses can be cured of their own disease, which makes them a dirt cheap if bland STR 6 unit.

The main use for Diseased Corpses though, in my experience, is to use them as catapaults. Their "collateral damage" is accomplished by disease. Then you send in your own troops, preferably summoned units, from 2 tiles away to slaughter the diseased enemy. If you strike from 2 tiles away, there is no issue with spreading disease to your own troops.

Sadly,
2. High Priests no longer get Law and Life spheres regardless of their religion.
in .16.

There's no denying that diseased corpses are no pushovers. It's part of why I think that maybe they should be nerfed a bit and count as tier-2 units, akin to archers of leaves or soldiers of kilmorph. Letting them upgrade to dread knights (diseased corpses=>fallen crusaders does't make much sense) at Fanatacism would be sweet, as the knights could either be built, or upgraded to retain disease in much the same way that the Drown can be upgraded to the Stygian Guard for water walking.

Personally I think the Eidoln(sp?) should be restricted to more demonic and nefarious civs/religions.

I was playing as the Luchurip, with RUnes, and...well, when my cities wanted to start producting Eidolns(sp?) instead of 5 star iron golems, i got a bit cranky.
-Qes

What? That's either a bug or a recent change, Eidolons should be unbuildable by Order or runes civs.

What? That's either a but or a recent change, Eidolons should be unbuildable by Order or runes civs.

Well I built em. Although, I did switch to free religion later. Im not sure on the timing, but that might have something to do with it.
Still, should angels and deamons be available to non-religion oriented civs?
Frankly, My opinion is "no". Because it offers another insentive to not be free religion (which is pretty sweet) in the late game.
-Qes

er, um, okay, well, problem solved then!
no more free religion civic.

er, um, okay, well, problem solved then!
no more free religion civic.

Exactly. You forget, we lowly fans dont have advanced copies of .16.
:-P
-Qes

There's no denying that diseased corpses are no pushovers. It's part of why I think that maybe they should be nerfed a bit and count as tier-2 units, akin to archers of leaves or soldiers of kilmorph. Letting them upgrade to dread knights (diseased corpses=>fallen crusaders does't make much sense) at Fanatacism would be sweet, as the knights could either be built, or upgraded to retain disease in much the same way that the Drown can be upgraded to the Stygian Guard for water walking.

That all sounds good with the possible exception of timing. Would there be a use for a nerfed Diseased Corpse, considering how long it takes to research AV? Perhaps there would be, if it were cheap and expendible. Or perhaps it wouldn't be so useful, as AV priests can summon cannon fodder for free. I admit I have not thought it out. Those are just the questions that come to mind.

I tend to like the idea behind adding the +1STR to the tier-3 units, though once again that opinion isn't carved in granite. OTOH I sort of like Crusaders as they are. They are not 'sexy', but having free Crusadrs pop up fairly frequently is always welcome. Then again, I've not played Order much.

FWIW.

Well, keep in mind that free crusaders only pop up after Fanatacism, and any cities that had the Order spread to them already don't spawn them for free. I suppose the diseased corpse would be nice as a 5 Str. cheap unit (as cheap or cheaper than the contemporary units) which is good for spreading disease far and wide. I suppose they'd functionally be a sort of tier-2.5 unit, but I'd like them to retain the ability to upgrade into a tier-3 unit with Fanatacism.

Well, keep in mind that free crusaders only pop up after Fanatacism, and any cities that had the Order spread to them already don't spawn them for free. I suppose the diseased corpse would be nice as a 5 Str. cheap unit (as cheap or cheaper than the contemporary units) which is good for spreading disease far and wide. I suppose they'd functionally be a sort of tier-2.5 unit, but I'd like them to retain the ability to upgrade into a tier-3 unit with Fanatacism.

You are probably righta bout the Order. I've played them only a couple times. I enjoyed those games, but definitely am no Order expert.

A tier-3 AV unit would be welcome, just on general principles.

I just haven't thought out this aspect as thoughaly as you have, so I don't have too much to say. :)

One thing I do want to say. ... My ongoing game reminds me of your Grigori experiment. It is my first Sheaim game. Long story short, I deviated a bit from the old spam cottages as early as possible dmn the torpedoes. And wouldn't you know it, I missed founding OO by 3-4 turns, then Leaves by 6-7 turns. I didn't bother with Runes and did not found AV until turn 300 on te dot. (Large map, normal speed) Not only that, but my startup did not have even a single mana node. So I played about as stripped-back Sheaim as it is possible to see.

You know where this is going. It's turned out to be the best game of FfH yet. For the first time in my Ver II experience, I am seeing al those tier-3 on teh battlefield and fighting. AI opponents have so many units their backs are definitely not broken after losing a major battle. And that Armegeddon will be invented is a certainty. :D

So I think I will aim for Order and AV a lot more now. Rushing to OO/Leaves/Runes is pretty much a certain win, at least in 0.15, but the games are more fun when you get a slower start. Besides, AV High Priests and Inquisitors rock, especially for the Sheaim. :)

Yes, I absolutely love playing the Orderly Malakim, and with Flauros' new traits in .016, I plan to show you all that Orderly Vampires are the best kind. Getting 2x speed courthouses, governor's manors, and the path to the Order all in one tech will be too much to resist.