This game is OVER, with a Conquest victory in 1635 AD. Post 2 is the story. Post 3 is ‘Why Russia’. Post 4 is the game info. Post 5 is the starting save.

The Roster:
Aabraxan
Phaedo
D'Artagnan59
CivActuary
Norton II
CommandoBob

Teacher:
scoutsout

Known lurkers:
Tribute
Salarakas
Sir Bugsy
Bucephalus
Ansar the King
gmaharriet

Catherine was upset and it was not a pretty sight to see. As fast as possible everyone averted their eyes, trying to dodge this bullet.

‘I’ve had enough of being the nice, sweet grandma of the north,’ she raged. ‘I’m tired of being overlooked and ignored by every man on the earth. I know I’m not beautiful but I am powerful, ruler of a sovereign people that are strong, ambitious and not to be denied their rightful place in the world order.

‘I deserve and demand more respect than those bumbling fools called men are willing to give. Well, what they will not give I will take!’

The court was silent.

Finally, the jester, who was paid to be abused, asked in a bemused manner, hoping to deflect some of her steam, ‘And what will that be, my wise and powerful queen?’ He never, ever, joked about her looks.

‘It will be war. War with everyone, I don’t care who they are or who rules them or where they live. We will destroy everyone that is not Russian and have peace with none of them. We will crush them like cockroaches and dance on their tombs. We will conquer them utterly and completely and gloat over their defeat.’

‘But your majesty, we have only one general, the great Scoutsout, who is advanced in years,’ said the jester. ‘Shall I summon him to lead our mighty armies?’

‘Summon him, but have him teach, not lead. Have him train up new Russian generals in the ways of war. I want fresh officers who thirst for glory to lead our armies to victory. I want to show the world that no one can stand up to any Russian leader, even in their first battle.’

‘Yes, Your Majesty. It shall be done.’

Why Russia?
Russia is the civ of choice by a process of elimination. In desiring to learn AW I didn’t want to learn how to play the Romans at AW or the Greeks at AW. I just wanted to learn the basics of AW, from the Ancient Age onwards, without the distractions of Golden Ages and Unique Units. So I eliminated any civ with a UU unit in the Ancient or Middle Ages. This left four civs, Russia, Ottomans, America and Germany. Germany is Militaristic and I did not want that (extra promotions). Ottomans and America are both Industrious, which diminishes the need to pay attention to early Worker Turns, so I rejected both of them. Which left Russia; Scientific and Expansionist.

Not exactly the civ to play in an Always War variant. It has a late game UU, the Cossack, which is merely a Calvary unit with a defense of ‘4’ instead of ‘3’. Who wants an early scout walking around meeting the neighbors before we are really ready? And being Scientific isn’t much good when you can’t trade the tech around.

But a great civ to train on. Winning an AW variant with Russia means that a person could win an AW variant with any other civ with ease. For AW, Russia looks to be a great, Plain Jane civ, with no real advantages in the early years or early wars. Training with Russia is similar to not building wonders. It takes away the dependency of being Militaristic or having early game powerhouse units.

Let me say all of this another way. I do not want learn AW from Rome since what I would learn is how Rome plays AW. I want to learn basic AW and apply what I learn to other civs.

Balancing
However, I did not want the challenge to be too great, so I made the difficulty Monarch. I made the map standard and the land mass continents. We will have seven neighbors, and will probably have three or four on our continent, which we can subdue before crossing the high seas. The pangea AWs look like fun, but are bit much to train on.

And the only victory condition in conquest. The others are turned off, so there is no need to worry about some AI on the other side of the world building the UN and becoming world leader.

Overview
This will be a Training Day Game for Always War Monarch (TDG-AWM). We will be the Russians, who are Scientific and Expansionist. Our Unique Unit is the Cossack, an improved Cavalry, which we get with Military Tradition.

On the turn we meet someone we must declare war. We can trade with them on that turn, as long as no deals involving gold per turn or resource trading is involved. By the end of that turn we must declare war.

Scoutsout will be helping us.

Civ III Conquests 1.22f
Level: Monarch
Opponents: random
Barbarians: raging
Land mass: continent
Water: 70%
Map size: standard
Age: 4 Gig, er 4 Billion
Climate: normal
Temperature: temperate

I am looking for about 4 or 5 other players who want to learn the Always War variant at the Monarch level. You do not need to have played a game at Monarch, much less won one, in order to sign up. I have one, and only one, completed, solo, game at Monarch; I’m still playing number two. I have been part of several SGs and SGOTMs, and from experience I can say that your current level of playing is not an issue.

The first turnset will be 20 turns and then will drop to 10 turns each. At some later point we may have to drop down to 5 turns when the turns get real long to play and log.

I am considering have each player play 20 turns from the starting save and then we post, compare our results and decide which start to play from.

Lurkers and guest lecturers are welcome also.



Gameplay

A training game plays slow due to the teaching and discussion. An AW will bog down because the warfare slows down the game turns. And the players have a life outside the game, not to mention other SGs. As a result, the normal SG 24/72 standards for Gameplay are out the window. I think the game will still move along without a problem. I just don’t want to force anyone into playing turns when they have questions about what they should be doing or some of the game concepts/implications/ramifications.

The idea is to learn and the best way to that is by discussion (theory; classroom time) and by doing (hands-on; Gameplay).

Once it is time to play, I think that 48 hours (2 days) to post a get is fine, followed by 96 hours (4 days) to play and post the results. After that, I may declare a skip and the game will move on. I know my schedule and have learned that I cannot keep the 24/72 pace that others can. This is certainly a more relaxed pace and can be extended when needed. Skips and swaps are allowed and encouraged when needed. And if everyone is busy and the game sets for a bit (Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc) that is fine too.

I really do not expect to have to declare someone skipped.

CommandoBob’s Semi-Standards
These things have helped me to focus my attention better on the game mechanics. I will be doing these things. I ask that anyone who wants to join be willing to do these their first two turnsets. The key is willing, not required.

Pre turn Strategy Post
This can be brief or elaborate, depending on the state of the game. We plan to win by conquest and we plan to always be at war, so mostly this would focus on plans for the current turn.

Military Strength
At the start and again at the end of a turnset, just report what our current military strength is. This can be gotten from the military advisor or from CivAssist II. It would look like this:

03 Warriors
16 Knights
10 Mace

The breakdown of conscript/regular/veteran/elite is not really needed here. I tend to just order the units as the Military Advisor does, so the order of what units comes first tends to change through out a game.

City Builds
For each city we have, list their name, size, growth in turns and build in turns. It would look like this:

London (4) grows in 4, spear in 2.
Paris (6) zero growth, temple in 4.


City Build Recap
This is just a list of what builds are being built by which city. The list would contain the name of the build, the count of how many are being built, followed by the names of the cities building that item. It would look like this:

Temple [2] (Paris and Rome)
rSpear [1] (London)
vSpear [3] (Mecca, Trondheim and Athens)

At some point in time both these city lists lose their importance. For an Always War game, we can ignore the City Build list when we get over twenty cities. I think the Recap would be good until we get around forty cities. After that they take more time than they are worth, especially since by the time we get to forty cities they will be making mostly fighting units anyway.

These lists do take extra time, but they have helped me to see things I might otherwise have missed, like building too many aqueducts or too few swords. So I would ask that the players try these for two turnsets.

And of course, all of these can be combined into one post. I tend to review the cities and military and then develop some plans for the turns that are upcoming.

And just to say it again, these semi-standards are suggestions. They have helped me and they might help you. Do not let them stop you for signing up.

4000 BC Russia
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob01/4000BC_Russia03TrimmedDotted.jpg



And the save is >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58993/CBob01_4000_BC.SAV).

The Standings:

Open Items are in red:

Next Research Path:
Currently Researching: Feudalism
Aabraxan: Feudalism/Engineering/Monarchy (depending on what we get for free), post #6
Phaedo: ???
D'Artagnan59: ???
CivActuary: Feudalism/engineering (depending on what we get for free, post #498
Norton II: ???
CommandoBob: Feudalism/Engineering/Monarchy (depending on what we get for free), post #497

Tribute: Engineering, post #497
(My comment: I think Tribute means Engineering after Feudalism, but I'm not entirely sure.)

Next City Location:
Aabraxan: ???
Phaedo: ???
D'Artagnan59: ???
CivActuary: ???
Norton II: ???
CommandoBob: ???

First Wonder:
Aabraxan: Great Wall, but waffling quite a bit, post #192
Phaedo: Great Library. post #199
D'Artagnan59: out sick
CivActuary: Great Library, post #201
Norton II: Great Library, post #157, 195
CommandoBob: Great Wall, but no strong feelings either way, post #207

Lurker Comments on the First Wonder:
Ansar the King; Great Wall, post #207
Bucephalus: Great Wall, post #142, 162, 208

Location of First Wonder:
Aabraxan: ???
Phaedo: ???
D'Artagnan59: ???
CivActuary: Black Dot, 2 E of Mosaic Moscow, post 282
Norton II: ???
CommandoBob: ???

Second Wonder:
Aabraxan: ???
Phaedo: ???
D'Artagnan59: Hanging Gardens, post 228
CivActuary: ???
Norton II: ???
CommandoBob: ???

I'd like in, please. I'm Regent-level with my first solo Monarch in progress right now. I think I can fit another TDG into my schedule, and would like to.

Sure, I'll let a RazorBack join in. :D After all, we're almost neighbors.



My understanding if AW is not only that you must declare on the turn that you meet another civ, but that you are also prohibited from asking for peace. Here's my question: can you accept peace? IOW, if someone shows up wanting to dump gold and techs in our laps if only we'll cease our rampage through their empire, can we accept peace? Or can we accept it only under certain conditions, such as no gpt deals?

No, we never accept peace. We are anti-social and we plan to take their money by force.

I'd like to join but should not due to what I am already doing. Of course, watching people like you play games like these inspire me to play more Civ. I'll be watching.

Spamming to subscribe, and reserve my spot in the "peanut gallery". :D

Cossacks in Conquests is a 6/3/3 cavalry unit with blitz ability (i.e. can attack more than once per turn), it has no extra defence point like it did in vanilla (Or did it? Haven't touched vanilla in about four years ;)) It also costs 90 shields, 10 more than cavalry.

But good luck! AW sounds scary at first but it's also a whole lot of fun. Kind of makes "normal games" a bit dull in comparison. Playing a couple of AW monarch games helped my military skills a LOT.

I'll be in the peanut galley as well. Need to watch my lead vocalist's back :band:

Good luck with this, CB. I'll be posting my usual meaningless questions with blindingly obvious answers.

I'm interested in playing if you'll have me. I guess I usually play Emperor or above in my soslo's but I've never tried AW. Besides I've followed a number of your SG games and I like both the format and your focus on discussion:goodjob:

I'm interested in playing if you'll have me. I guess I usually play Emperor or above in my soslo's but I've never tried AW.

You're in!

I haven't done AW either since I tend to be a builder. Beating up on everybody for no reason than 'Justbecause' will be a new experience.

I'm glad to see this shaping up so quickly. I'm also glad that CB isn't going to hold my Razorback status against me! (Y'all know just how 'ornery those Texans can get.:D )

Given the comments that have been made about being a builder, I think it appropriate to point out that our fearless leader is also "a builder at heart."

You guys misunderstand me. I am actually a builder at heart. :cry:

Seriously, I like to build stuff:
I like to build cities, so that I may build an empire...
I like to build barracks, so I can build veteran units.
I like to build roads, to connect my trade network, make some gold, and move some units.
I like to build markets, for happiness, gold, and unit support.
I like to build libraries, so I can learn to build better units.
I like to build MORE cities, for more unit support
I like to build railroads, so I can move my units really fast.
I like to build factories, so I can build units faster
I like to build things that throw rocks and drop bombs, so I can ... kill other civs' units!
I like to build universities and banks... (see "libraries" and "markets")
I like to build airfields, so I can move units around really, REALLY fast.


(That was the funniest post I've seen on this site, and I think it would make a great sig.)

Can I be a player?

Would love to join, but school comes first. I will be watching to see how this game shapes up, especially with Ugly Cathy. ;) :p

D'Artagnan59 is a player; the wise and studious Ansar the King is a lurker.

Grabbing a seat next to my fellow lurkers. :D

Hey,
I've never done a SG before, but I'd like to join up if y'all would have me. I'm a Monarch/Emporer level player but I've never done an AW variant. Thanks!

Hey,
I've never done a SG before, but I'd like to join up if y'all would have me. I'm a Monarch/Emporer level player but I've never done an AW variant. Thanks!
Welcome to the gang! SGs are fun and wild and can really grab your attention.


And welcome to the forum!
[party] :band:

Greetings, one and all!

Looks like we're waiting for one more ambitious general before we begin, are we not?

In the meantime, two points that I think we should discuss:

1) Research: where are we going & how do we get there? Obviously, trade is of limited importance. Better military units will always be valuable to us. Early on, iron and horses may be critical. On the other hand, monopoly techs are always good for that first (and in this case, only) trading opportunity.

2) Government: Do we shoot for the republic slingshot, or aim for monarchy? Given that this is AW, monarchy might be smarter. From what I have gleaned from lurking, AW is pretty much the only place you want monarchy.

What say you all?

Welcome to the gang! SGs are fun and wild and can really grab your attention.Thanks CB, I'm looking forward to this. I've lurked a few games and they have already made me think about things I wouldn't normally consider playing solo.

Greetings, one and all!

Looks like we're waiting for one more ambitious general before we begin, are we not?

In the meantime, two points that I think we should discuss:

1) Research: where are we going & how do we get there? Obviously, trade is of limited importance. Better military units will always be valuable to us. Early on, iron and horses may be critical. On the other hand, monopoly techs are always good for that first (and in this case, only) trading opportunity.

2) Government: Do we shoot for the republic slingshot, or aim for monarchy? Given that this is AW, monarchy might be smarter. From what I have gleaned from lurking, AW is pretty much the only place you want monarchy.

What say you all?
1) Here's my thoughts, for what they are worth.

We are pretty much going to have to research everything ourselves, since apart from initial trading before we declare, the only other way to get techs will be from goody huts, right? Being scientific and expansionist will help here. But given we won't be trading later is it worth it to shoot for monopoly techs later on or would the path of least resistance be better (ie AIs already researched, so cheaper)?

We start with BW and Pottery, so yes, I think Horsies and Iron should be short term goals.

Which brings me to a question of my own - in Always War, do you have to declare immediately on closing the diplomacy window or just by the end of the turn? What I mean is, if we happen (slim chances) to meet 2 civs in a turn, can we broker a tech before we declare or not?

2) Monarchy for sure, IMO.

We start with BW and Pottery, so yes, I think Horsies and Iron should be short term goals.

I guess I'm not clear on what you mean by this. Do you want to research them or try to trade for them?

We may be able to get the best of both worlds. Since we start w/ BW, we may be able to get a quick monopoly on IW. With a little luck and good planning, we may be able to trade it for good stuff, like The Wheel or Horseback Riding.

Edit: Before, of course, declaring war and crushing all in our path to world dominion . . .

I guess I'm not clear on what you mean by this. Do you want to research them or try to trade for them?

We may be able to get the best of both worlds. Since we start w/ BW, we may be able to get a quick monopoly on IW. With a little luck and good planning, we may be able to trade it for good stuff, like The Wheel or Horseback Riding.

Edit: Before, of course, declaring war and crushing all in our path to world dominion . . .
I was a bit general in just thinking those would be good things to get quickly, by either means. It might depend on who we are up against, but we could certainly begin by researching IW.

We are pretty much going to have to research everything ourselves, since apart from initial trading before we declare, the only other way to get techs will be from goody huts, right?

Stealing is a good option.

But isn't stealing a long way off? I thought it required techs that are somewhat down the road.

But isn't stealing a long way off? I thought it required techs that are somewhat down the road.
No, I'm sure it's an option once you have an Embassy; does this variant allow them?

No, I'm sure it's an option once you have an Embassy; does this variant allow them?
You're right, I forgot about stealing (probably because I don't do very much of it). And as long as we have an ambassy, we can steal.

Can we establish embassies while at war?

You're right, I forgot about stealing (probably because I don't do very much of it). And as long as we have an ambassy, we can steal.

Since playing a game with Zerksees (who begrudges every cent spent on research), I'm a convert; I now do it at every opportunity. It's cheaper than researching, at least later in the game.

Can we establish embassies while at war?

Not sure, but you could on first contact.

I should add that chances of success vary with Govt type, and having spies definitely improves those odds.

Not sure, but you could on first contact.Quite true, as long as the contact is made after we have writing.

Of course, those civs we contact before we have writing won't be long for this world anyway...

1) Research: where are we going & how do we get there? Obviously, trade is of limited importance. Better military units will always be valuable to us. Early on, iron and horses may be critical. On the other hand, monopoly techs are always good for that first (and in this case, only) trading opportunity.

Good question, and I have no answer. The Ancient Age techs are fuzzy to me. I see them like insurance: something you have to have but never really use (mostly).


2) Government: Do we shoot for the republic slingshot, or aim for monarchy? Given that this is AW, monarchy might be smarter. From what I have gleaned from lurking, AW is pretty much the only place you want monarchy.

From what I've read, Republic is very stable in AW, but I could be wrong.

We shall find out together! :D

Good question, and I have no answer. The Ancient Age techs are fuzzy to me. I see them like insurance: something you have to have but never really use (mostly).


From what I've read, Republic is very stable in AW, but I could be wrong.

Surely not? War weariness would make AW in Republic impossible. In my current solo game, I'm in Republic, at war for maybe 10 turns, and I'm already seeing 30% WW. I would say Monarchy and Communism are the only two Govts that you could use for AW.

From what I've read, Republic is very stable in AW, but I could be wrong.
I really hope that was sarcasm. Republic is most certainly not good in AW (all that WW) :cringe:.

Monarchy is much better IMHO, and then to Communism (IIRC). :hammer:

But is WW a problem if we're winning?

But is WW a problem if we're winning?

Of course, WW is always a problem; and in AW it will never go away.

Well I certainly feel silly. I somehow thought if we could simply press forward without losing units (or not very many), that WW wouldn't really be a problem.

In that case, I'd say let's go Monarchy. Now we just have to pick our path.

My first instinct would be something like:
1) Iron Working (because we start w/ BW)
2) The Wheel
3) Horseback Riding
4) Beeline Monarchy

Obviously, this may change as we trade on first contacts.

You're right, I forgot about stealing (probably because I don't do very much of it). And as long as we have an ambassy, we can steal.

Can we establish embassies while at war?

lurkers comment :

No, you cannot. Unfortunately. :) That would be too easy.

Taking my seat in the lurker's lounge.

markh got it right - you can't establish an embassy while at war. And since you need Writing to establish an embassy on first contact....you're not likely to establish many embassies.

Your only real option for stealing tech in an AW game is to research Espionage, build the Intelligence Agency, and use spies.

Monarchy Sling Now!

I admit I don't have all the facts on WW in an AW game. I also tend to get to Republic and stay in it. But then I am not warring all the time.

Here is what I learned the hard way in SGOTM10. In addition to being at war, WW is calculated by how many friendly troops are in enemy territory in the IBT. If it is only a handful, the affects are not too bad. But 40 or more units in enemy territory over several IBTs just shoots WW through the roof. Which is what I did.

I am not afraid to be in Monarchy; it is just not a government I play. And I have read that warring is possible and sustainable in Republic, but those comments were general, not talking about an AW game.

EDIT:
Question: since we have to do our own reseach, which government would let us keep up in the tech race best (of all government, not just Monarchy and Republic) ?

Well I certainly feel silly. I somehow thought if we could simply press forward without losing units (or not very many), that WW wouldn't really be a problem.
I'd say that (in theory anyway) if you could meet just one civ at a time, declare and destroy them quickly, then meet another civ...rinse and repeat...it might work. The WW count starts all over again with each civ. But what are the odds you could kill off each civ before meeting another??? :p

Once we decide on our tech strategy we need to consider at what rate we want to learn those techs; min science, max science, zero sum economy or something else.

And then we need to discuss (in no real order) :

Initial city placement
Initial scout/worker moves
Initial city builds


I think we need to research Iron Working because a) we need better weapons than our neighbors :evil: and b) we might be able to trade it for other techs when we first meet our neighbors. I only think that we will meet three, maybe four neighbors anytime soon, so we need to learn fast.

I think we need to research Iron Working because a) we need better weapons than our neighbors :evil: and b) we might be able to trade it for other techs when we first meet our neighbors. I only think that we will meet three, maybe four neighbors anytime soon, so we need to learn fast.

Is it a good idea to trade a 'military' tech with someone you are about to fight to the death?

Hmm...
I like D'art's suggestion of a Monarchy slingshot but is it doable when we will be be needing so much military and without Alph at the start? I'm thinking no but we are playing at monarchy so it could be a real possibility I just don't know.

Why not go straight for monarchy? We are an Expansionist civ so the chances of getting WC for free is quite high. Horses and archers are an effective early army and we already have spears for defense. Why do we need IW right away? Wouldn't a faster government change do us more good?

I think an all out tech push at the beginning is the way to go. Once we have our government we could always change our research if we like.

Scout goes on the mount to the west, build where we are and mine the BG next to the river?

I'm not sure if our first build should be a warrior or a scout. There isn't really a lot of value of meeting civs earlier than we are ready to attack them is there? We want that scout to be searching around for our next city locations and popping huts. As we won't really be able to rely too much on trade for techs, those huts could be very valuable. The more I think about it, the more I think a scout should be our first build. We can always change it to a warrior if there are frisky barbs or enemies about.

A quick question. If we see a unit from another civ, do we have to talk with it immediately? Or can we wait? I understand our constraints once we are in the dialogue screen but do we have to contact new civs at the first possibility or just before the end of the turn? Can we wait for them to contact us? Just looking for a little clarification:)

Is it a good idea to trade a 'military' tech with someone you are about to fight to the death?
Touche! I overlooked that point.

It might be OK if we had a strong military that was already upgraded to that tech AND if we were able to strike at the other civ rather quickly (2 to 3 turns).

But other than that situation, it is probably not the wisest course of action.

Government - As others have said, with AW, Republic has too much WW, so it's Monarchy for me. I don't know anything about Feudalism though, I've never used it. My preference would be to get Monarchy and stay there until maybe going to communism.

Initial city placement - I agree with Phaedo, settle in place. Of course we will need to see what the terrain looks like, but since this is AW, we should shoot for CxxC placement after, correct?

Initial scout/worker moves - Again, agree with Phaedo - Scout 2W to the mountain, worker W to the BG. After the first turn, I'd probably be in favor of sending the scout N. Reason - it looks like we are toward the upper part of a continent, there is a chance only 1 or no other civs are N of us.

Initial city builds - I think Warrior. Reason - We are on a continent and will be declaing war on anyone we meet, I think 1 scout might be enough. And we will need the warrior soon enough.

Techs - I think we should go for IW first, max research if possible. It would be good to have iron and swords first. Bucephalus has a good point about trading it away though, we may want to consider that. I think we can probably also get the other 1st tier techs through our initial trades or goody huts, which is what makes me lean towards a 2nd tier tech. I don't think we'd be able to get the Monarchy sling without Alph, either.

Contacting civs - Phaedo, my impression of the AW variant is that as soon as we are able to talk to them we have to declare by the end of the turn we meet them.

2 questions -

What is the rule on finding out who our opponents are? Are we allowed to check?

Are we each going to play the first 20 turns?

There's obviously a lot to think about before we conquer the world. Here's my 2¢ on these points:

Researching Tech: I'm for Iron Working first, and at max research at that. We need swords and I don't think we can get into Monarchy before we'll need them. I also think IW is important because it puts iron on the map. I don't think there's any doubt about whether or not we'll eventually need iron, and it would be a tremendous help to know where it is, so that we can place our cities properly.

Horses and archers do make a viable early military, but I think we can get a scout or two out and hope for Warrior Code for the archers, and we need two techs for horsemen (The Wheel and Horseback Riding). We could (I think) build a bunch of chariots ready for upgrade, but we won't have that much gold available when that time comes, I don't think.

I keep seeing reference to a "Monarchy Slingshot." Can we actually slingshot Monarchy? Now maybe there's something I'm missing here, but I thought the "Republic Slingshot" is so named because you take Republc as your free tech after Philosophy. I don't think we will be able to do that with Monarchy. Why? Because the path to Philosophy won't give us the prerequisite techs for Monarchy. IIUC, we'd have to have all the prerequisites for Monarchy before we could take it as a free tech. IOW, the only way that we would be able to "slingshot" Monarchy would be to get all of the prerequisites to Monarchy, then get to Philosophy before anyone else. Am I missing something?

Trading Tech: Bucephalus has a good point on trading military techs. I overlooked this when I mentioned that IW could be an easy monopoly. On the other hand, remember that we'll basically get one shot per AI civ to trade. Maybe it's a mistake to trade a military tech like IW, but I think it will depend on what they've got and what they've got to offer. I also think that the real danger is not that first trade -- it's the fact that once we let go of a monopoly trade, the AIs can then trade it around and everyone will have it.

Government: I'm kind of like CommandoBob in this: I'm not afraid of Monarchy; I just haven't played it. My solo games have not been AW, but they have been pretty war-heavy. I stick to Republic and I haven't had any war weariness problems. I think Monarchy will slow us down in research, but we've got to weigh that against the advantage in having no WW. In the final analysis, I think we need Monarchy. If I'm correct about the slingshot, I also think that this is a decision that we need to make before that scout moves his big toe for the first time.

War Weariness:I think this is the part that tripped me up on WW:

In addition to being at war, WW is calculated by how many friendly troops are in enemy territory in the IBT.

I just figured that if we kept taking cities, our borders would keep moving and we wouldn't have units in enemy territory for very long. At any rate, Monarchy makes this a non-issue.

This is my read of the current "votes" on these issues. If I've missed anyone or read anyone's post incorrectly, just let me know and I'll edit this post.

The current standings:
Government:
Aabraxan: Monarchy
Phaedo: Monarchy
CommandoBob: ???
CivActuary: Monarchy
D'Artagnan: Monarchy

Tech Path:
Aabraxan: Iron Working, Max
Phaedo: Iron Working
CommandoBob: Iron Working (?)
CivActuary: Iron Working
D'Artagnan: Monarchy sling

Miscellaneous questions:
I have the same question as Phaedo. CivActuary provided an answer, but didn't sound too sure of it. If we see a unit from another civ, are we required to talk to them on that turn? Or can we let them go without ever talking to them and without ever declaring war?

Also, what about embassies? I say establish them if you can (& if we're allowed), for the purpose of stealing tech!

I've been long-winded enough for now. I'll come back with comments on first builds and moves later.

Edit #1: Phaedo's tech vote changed.

I keep seeing reference to a "Monarchy Slingshot." Can we actually slingshot Monarchy? Now maybe there's something I'm missing here, but I thought the "Republic Slingshot" is so named because you take Republc as your free tech after Philosophy. I don't think we will be able to do that with Monarchy. Why? Because the path to Philosophy won't give us the prerequisite techs for Monarchy. IIUC, we'd have to have all the prerequisites for Monarchy before we could take it as a free tech. IOW, the only way that we would be able to "slingshot" Monarchy would be to get all of the prerequisites to Monarchy, then get to Philosophy before anyone else. Am I missing something?
You're not missing anything. The way the monarchy slingshot is often accomplished (obviously impossible in this game) is by researching straight to philosophy and buying mysticism and polytheism (buying mysticism, and researching writing, polytheism, and philosophy might work in a normal game).

The embassy is closed during war, so you can't steal techs that way.

I've been giving some thought to your debate as to which Govt. to choose, and I've reached a rather surprising conclusion. I actually think that Despotism would be the best by far for quite a long time. OK, my ears are ringing as I hear your howls of derision, but hear me out.

This is not a standard game. Many of the rules we learn are not going to apply in a game of AW. So whereas in a normal game your first objective would be to switch to a more progressive form of Govt. - usually Republic -, in AW I believe you already have the best Govt. available, at least until your Empire grows considerably, and you have vanquished your immediate neighbours. I believe it to have two killer advantages over Monarchy, the only realistic alternative.

1) Unit support: every town you put down supports four more military units; in Monarchy, it is half that until a town reaches size 7. Realistically, how many aquaducts are you going to build in the early game? Surely you'll do nothing more than pump out military.

Which brings me to advantage #2) pop rushing; an incredibly powerful tool for AW in the AA, where units are cheap. In Monarchy, it would be a long time before the economy would support cash-rushing units. Remember, although corruption is slightly less in Monarchy, you do not get any commercial bonus, so the economy is unlikely to show much improvement over Despotism for quite a long time.

Too true ^Bucephalus's post^.

Of course, if your land is basically all floodplains (and rivers, of course) and low on shields, you may consider the change to monarchy because of the consequent high population and commerce. It all depends on the start.

(So roll one) We're waiting! :)

Despotism is interesting. I don't really mind that and have played a number of games where I have stayed in despotism for quite a while. The unit support is great so perhaps that is a consideration. The despotism penality worries me a bit. I hate losing food.

As to the unit upkeep, although we will be continually producing troops, we will be loosing them too. I'm thinking we will have to carefully focus on military strategy as we won't really have the opportunity to wait until we have an overwhelming military force before we go to war. I have never played this type of game, so I am basically talking out my bum, but I forsee a couple of stacks that will hopefull grow but that growth will be pretty slow due to some attrition:twitch: . Artillary units (cats etc.) will stick around but by the time we have a monster standing army might not our cities be big enough to support it?:please:

All that being said, perhaps a quick run to monarchy isn't the best. I'll throw my vote behind IW, but I'd like to get Math sooner than later:satan:

Miscellaneous questions:
I have the same question as Phaedo. CivActuary provided an answer, but didn't sound too sure of it. If we see a unit from another civ, are we required to talk to them on that turn? Or can we let them go without ever talking to them and without ever declaring war?


Always War (AW): When you meet an opponent (as soon as they appear on the F2/F4/Shift-D diplomacy screen, you've met them), you must declare war on them - THAT turn. You can make initial deals for hard goods only (no gpt deals, no alliances, no resource/luxury trades). Opening the diplomacy window to spy techs, cities, resources, etc. is allowed. Signing peace for even a single turn is prohibited.

My understanding would be that if we see a unit we have to contact that unit, if possible. Some units may move through our line of sight on the IBT and we may be unable to contact them (boats and horses come to mind).

If we see a border before we see a unit, we can ignore/avoid the border as we see fit. We cannot ignore a unit.

I think Bucephalus may have something with staying in depsotism. This is AW. We don't need to be cutting our unit support by half any time soon. Even if we beeline monarchy, though, we'll be a while getting there. If we time our research right, we can just stay in despotism until we are ready to build aques to get unit support up.

Techs we need early:
Iron Works
Math
Wheel & Horseback riding

Initial city placement:
I think we're standing on it.

Initial scout moves:
I think I see water at the eastern edge and NW of the mountain. No way of knowing if it's fresh or sea, though. I'm probably with Phaedo and CivActuary on moving 2W to the mountain, but the bog by the hill makes me question that a little. I might go 1SW and 1S. . . then again, I see jungle 1S+1SE.

Initial worker moves:
Hard to say: either 1W to the BG, or 1 SE to irrigate the grass. Then again, my gut frequently follows the pop=power rule. The BG might be the better choice.

Initial city builds:
Warrior. We might want another goodie-hut-poppin' Scout after the first warrior, but two scouts too fast may get us into wars faster than we really want at this stage. AW doesn't mean stupid.

CommandoBob, thanks for the clarification.

I would go one further; if you can get the slingshot, I would forget Monarchy for the time being. It's not a required tech, and I think your free tech would be better used getting out of the AA. It could turn out to be critical to be first to Feudalism, and later Chivalry (or Invention if you have no Iron).

I think we need a bit more discussion on techs.

As we are at Monarch level, we are even with the AI (I think). The Phil gambit should be seriously considered (I don't think it can be ignored). In an AW varient isn't the GL going to be incredibly helpful? Wouldn't being the first to phil be really good for us no matter what? The question will be what do we need (can we get) before playing the phil gambit with a reasonable amount of success. Or, what do we need to achieve early success such that we can let our opponents do the research for us while we prepare to destroy them:devil:

If we see a hut in the near vacinity, it will affect our tech choice, but if that doesn't happen it would seem that an early IW works in our favour so I now throw my vote behind IW:rolleyes: . After that, it would seem to be situationally dependent.

Bucephalus' comment made me think about our build strategy more. What do we want to build and how many do we think we need? We will always be at war so what kind of attack force do we want. How important are 2-move units to us? I'm not a tactical expert so I can't easily answer this but our only option is horses in the early game. Can we get them and do the Phil gambit to Lit and get the GL (if that is what we want)? As we will be fighting a lot, I am assuming getting some Great Leaders can be counted on so the early wonder build is possible ( I know our fearless Defender of the Alamo doesn't like to rely on wonders but in this variant, I think doing without them would be like trying to win WWII without tanks:suicide: ).

Getting a free tech is nice but it's still just one tech and you have to risk a great deal trying to get it. And even if you go max speed towards it some AI might still beat you.

Having followed at least a dozen AW games here and having played many myself I'd start with warrior code (you want archers asap) and then decide between iron working and the wheel. If there's a lot of hills/mountains then IW is probably a better choice. Artillery is a must in always war so mathematics is definately the next big target. After that I'd start working towards monarchy. If you want the great library get literature when you're close to finishing the prebuild (for which you probably need masonry too). Philosophy would be among the last ancient techs on my list.

As we will be fighting a lot, I am assuming getting some Great Leaders can be counted on so the early wonder build is possible

Unfortunately, you cannot rush a Wonder with an MGL in Conquests.

Phaedo got me to thinking about wonders:

Great Library: In AW, this could be incredibly useful. We won't have the option of trading for research, or getting techs in exchange for peace. OTOH, it's a big investment shieldwise (400?). I think (subject to change, of course) that I'd rather build it than capture it. (In a solo game, I recently captured the Great Lighthouse and I got one tech, Education . . . )

Other foreseeable choices for wonders might include:

Statute of Zeus
Sun Tzu's
Leonardo's Workshop
Knights Templar

Thoughts?

@ Bucephalus: I can't tell if you mean the first to become feudalistic, or the first to discover feudalism. I'm somewhat reluctant to use it as a government because if its unit support structure (5/2/1). Looks to me like that would almost force us into an ICS with tons of towns.

@ Bucephalus: I can't tell if you mean the first to become feudalistic, or the first to discover feudalism. I'm somewhat reluctant to use it as a government because if its unit support structure (5/2/1). Looks to me like that would almost force us into an ICS with tons of towns.

I meant the tech (MI, Pikes) not the Govt. The Govt has WW, and is therefore unsuitable for AW.

AW doesn't mean stupid.

So true (but very easy to forget).

I know our fearless Defender of the Alamo doesn't like to rely on wonders but in this variant, I think doing without them would be like trying to win WWII without tanks :suicide:.

I am not opposed to wonders. I just don't want a game plan that must have a wonder to succeed. Having said that, I think the list that Aabraxan made needs careful consideration in its execution. None of them are gamebreakers. SoZ gives Ancient Calvary and that would be a big boost to our offense. But it depends on ivory and only gives a new unit every 5 turns, so we would have to wait a bit to get a good attack force (4 to 6 ACs).

The two most important wonders that I see are the obvious ones: Sun Tzu's Academy of War (instant barracks, no upkeep, quick healing of our honorably wounded) and Leonardo's Workshop for cheaper upgrades. (Uh, wait, if we don't have a lot of cash coming in, upgrading units may be less appealing that building units. Ouch. :cry: )

Knights Templar I have not used, so I really can't comment on it.

I would prefer to capture the Great Library instead of building it, but that is only a preference and not a doctrine in my playbook.

Will we build wonders? Probably. I sure hope so. But wonders are like dessert and we still need to finish our vegetables. :)

I am not opposed to wonders. I just don't want a game plan that must have a wonder to succeed.

Agreed. I just thought we might think about these while we're discussing tech & research.

Having said that, I think the list that Aabraxan made needs careful consideration in its execution.

Agreed. We don't need all of them and I don't think we want all of them. One or two might really help, though.

Knights Templar I have not used, so I really can't comment on it.

I've used it at lower levels and the Crusaders are nice, but I'm not sure it will be worth the shield investment. Like SoZ, though, it will continuously produce units (a) at the same time the city is producing other units; and (b) without any shield investment for the units.

I would prefer to capture the Great Library instead of building it, but that is only a preference and not a doctrine in my playbook.

I think we'll have to decide this later. Its capture may be impossible, or may take so long that it does us no good.

I get the feeling that everyone is itching to play some turns.

So let's all do that.

For now, let us all take the starting save (>>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58993/CBob01_4000_BC.SAV)) and each play the first twenty turns. Keep a turnlog (I have Notepad open when I am playing and Alt+Tab between the game, game notes, game log and MapStat and sometimes Paint) and try to have screenshots of things you think are important or noteworthy. Please post a message stating that your turns are done when they are done. When everyone that was able to play has finished their turns, we'll post our logs, compare notes and decide which start to continue playing from.

In your turnlog, in addition to telling what you have done, try to tell why you have done that. Even if the reason seems obvious to you, it may not be to someone reading the log. Don't worry about a strategy post or any other 'reporting' things I mentioned earlier. Those can start once we get past the first 20.


I just thought we might think about these while we're discussing tech & research.

Can't argue with that. Now let's see what our world is like so we can begin planning in earnest. :D Urrah!

Note:
I'll leave this game open a little while longer. I will probably close it after we decide which start we want to use.

Thanks for the save. This is looking like it will be fun
Just a quick note, I'm not a huge fan of Templars. The one movement isn't so great. The road building is kind of neat but I've never used it effectively. The truth is, I don't usually build wonders so I'm not an expert, it would just seem that with so many constraints, some of those wonders could really help us. I like CommandoBob's choices. I also like the pyramids if we can get it (not build it). Faster growth= more cities= more everything :D Edit (including corruption:( )

My turns are done, and ready to post. (Yes, CommandoBob, I was ready to begin . . . )

@Phaedo -- I usually build a couple of wonders per game. It also seems like I build fewer of them each game, probably because I keep increasing the difficulty. Anyway, like I said, the Templars may not be worth the shield investment, particularly if we can get the SoZ instead. It'll depend on our research and our resources. Frankly, I've never built anything with a crusader.

I'm also ready to post:)
This AW thing is scary!:eek: War really isn't my strength so this should be really helpful for my game playing

You guys are showing me up! :lol:

In my meager defense, I had turns to play in SGOTM 11 and things got a little interesting with the barbarians.

And I must confess, I don't play quickly, either.

I do plan to play my turns tomorrow, maybe even giving up my Sunday afternoon nap! :eek:

I got lucky. Mrs. and Little Aabraxan went to dinner Friday night so I had a couple of hours all to myself.

I have been known to skip my Sunday nap in favor of Civing (or SMACing, or MOOing. . . . ), but it's been pretty rare. Saturdays and Sundays are generally reserved for napping at this house.

I think Aabra and I are a little keen as we are new to the Sg thing:)
I don't have a Mrs. or a youngster to take care of but RL still gets in the way of Civ (as it should:D )
Looking forward to the discussion

OK, my set is finished as well. I got some kid-free time and played out the 20 turns, though i don't feel like I did too well.

I hate having to dig through dozens of posts to figure out where we are. So I will once again elect myself to keep track of status:

The Roster:
Aabraxan: done
Phaedo: done
CivActuary: done
CommandoBob: done
D'Artagnan59: pending

Hope everyone got great naps.

Thanks Aabra:thumbsup:

I got my twenty turns in and then my twenty winks in.

:sleep:

All in all, a good afternoon.

Are you PM'ing these saves to each other? I don't see any here. Nor any screenshots, nor any plans....

Tribute,
No. We're each playing the first 20 turns. Once everyone has finished, we'll post our turnlogs, saves, & screenshots. There have been some planning discussions, and these will continue after posting.

Ah. I thought you'd played more than one round. Hee hee. Of course, that should have been obvious had I read CBob's post. This is very similar to another SG going on....

It is quite similar to the Phaedo patience SG but the differences are interesting:D .

I think we are out of the spoiler mode now.

I guess we are just waiting for D'art's turns now eh? Hope he's feeling better.

Question:
I don't want to give anything away so I'll be as general as I can. As we know we will always be at war, does anyone have any ideas how we can keep a war effort going and grow at the same time? Are there some general principles to follow? Are there standard build orders (that would of course have to modified to the situation)? Any tips on early rushing?

I died in the 20 turns.

I died in the 20 turns.

So what do I put in my lovely status-tracking post above?

Seriously, until Phaedo's post, I had no clue that you weren't feeling well and hope you've recovered. By the above, do you mean that your empire died, or that you didn't feel well enough to play?

Assuming that your death was game related:) , I think it is still worth recording and posting the results D'art. We're here to learn. Mistakes teach as much (and maybe more) than perfect play. I think it's fair to say we are all out of our comfort zone on this one.

Also, even though we skipped you, I think I speak for the Phaedo team in saying you are still welcome to join back in. We skipped you before I saw your illness post on your SG. Sorry:bowdown:

So what do I put in my lovely status-tracking post above?

Seriously, until Phaedo's post, I had no clue that you weren't feeling well and hope you've recovered. By the above, do you mean that your empire died, or that you didn't feel well enough to play?
I took it to mean his empire died, but like you I didn't even know he was ill. D'Art I hope you are feeling better.

I'll check in after I get the kiddies to bed tonight and see if everyone's posting their turnsets. I'm looking forward to the discussion.


Assuming that your death was game related:) , I think it is still worth recording and posting the results D'art. We're here to learn. Mistakes teach as much (and maybe more) than perfect play. I think it's fair to say we are all out of our comfort zone on this one.

Also, even though we skipped you, I think I speak for the Phaedo team in saying you are still welcome to join back in. We skipped you before I saw your illness post on your SG. Sorry:bowdown:
I agree with Phaedo in that it would still be worth looking at the results. I learn much more from my losses than I do my victories. Heck - my first game ever as the Russians, I popped a settler from a hut and was thinking - hey this expansionistic trait is great -- until an AI showed up and wiped the floor with me because I had out-expanded my military.

I guess that means it is time to post he?

Here's mine:
4000 BC Turn 0
Scout goes 2 west to the mount uncovers a hut but think I'll pop it with
the second scout as it is to the north and I want to explore to the south.
Worker goes 1 west
Found Moscow. Pump up science to 100% start researching WC. Start building
scout. Citizes starts working the BG under the worker

3950 BC Turn 1
Worker 1 starts mining BG as figurethat shields will be our priority
S1 goes E then S

3900 BC Turn 2
S1 goes 2 SW to the mountain. Looks like we have some game for the hunters
and a pretty big natural boundry to our west. Some nice land.

3850 BC Turn 3
S1 goes SE then S. See another hut on a mountain. Will pop it next turn.

3800 BC Turn 4
Here we go. A Hittite warrior moves into our line of sight.
S1 pops the hut and gets a map of the region revealing the border of the
Hittite Civ and spices 2 squares ENE from the mount the scout is on. It also
looks like the sea is to our East . There is some tobacco on a river and
the Hittites have some wheat near their city but outside of their borders.
They will trade CB and 2 gold for BW. Doesn't make sense to give them
spears for temples (which we will eventually want but will be able to get
from a hut (hopefully).
Declare war! They are going to kill our scout next turn so I don't change
the city build. We can get a warrior built before he can get to us.

IBT Hittite warrior kills S1

3750 BC Turn 5
Moscow builds S2 and starts on a warrior (5 turns). Will grow at the same
time.
S2 moves W then N. Don't really see too much more than I already knew.

3700 BC Turn 6
S2 pops the hut and they give us a warrior. Hmm don't really know what to do
with him. The 2HP don't really make him good for much more than policing but
it does increase our military a bit. Decide to send him towards Moscow.

3650 BC Turn 7
Worker 1 finishes mine and starts road. Warrior heads SE
S2 goes E then N to the mountain. See grapes to the NW and another hut Easnt
that can be popped next turn

IBT Hittite scout moves SSW of Moscow.

3600 BC Turn 8
Warrior moves SE onto Worker 1.
S2 pops the hut and gets maps (Arg!!! Where is our tech?) Reveals sugar and gold
east of Moscow.

IBT Hit Scout moves 2 East and their Warrior appears

3550 BC Turn 9
Moscow makes a warrior and starts a spear (in 7)
Rename the 2HP warrior to "Punk" and move him into Moscow.
Decide to move our new Warrior south so the Hittite warrior will have to
attack across the river.
S2 moves 2 SE to the hill. Figure I want to see more of what's around Moscow and
don't really want to meet any new civs just yet.

IBT Hittite warrior attacks and dies. Russian Warrior down to 2 HP and our
borders expand. Hittite scout moves SE

3500 BC Turn 10
Moscow gets another citizen and he starts working the BG ESE of Moscow.
Worker moves E of Moscow heading for the BG next to the river.
S2 moves S to the hill
Warrior moves SE chasing the Hittite scout.

IBT Hittite scout runs W then SW (I wonder if this means there isn't any hut
in the darkness SE of Moscow)

3450 BC Turn 11
Worker moves to the BG that the citizen is working.
Warrior fortifies in the forest to get his HP back
S2 moves S to the hill

IBT nada

3400 BC Turn 12
Scout moves NW then N going up to look for more huts
Warrior back up to full strength and moves SW towards the Hittite Empire
Worker starts on a mine
Spear in 2 at Moscow with growth in 8

3350 BC Turn 13
Scout moves 2 N to the hill
Warrior moves S along the edge of the forrest.

3300 BC Turn 14
Moscow builds Spear and we are losing 1 GP. Start on settler (builds in 8
grown in 6)
Fortify spear in Moscow.
Scout moves E to another hill.
Warrior moves S revealing another spice

3250 BC Turn 15
S2 moves 2 N
Warrior moves S into the open heading for the mountain

3200 BC Turn 16
Scout moves SW then W
Warrior moves W to the mountain and sees another Hittite warrior. I'll have
to wait and see what he does but we don't have a force that can take out a
city yet so I figure the best thig to do is try to maneuver him into a
position where our Warrior can kill him

IBT Hittite warrior moves N and 2 more move N into view! This is a bit of a
problem. Moscow can probably defend but I don't reallt have a counter attack
force yet.

3150 BC Turn 17
Learn WC and start on IW
Move Punk 2 W ont tohe mountain infront of the Hittites.
Our warriors moves 1 N to go back for the defense of Moscow.
We can change the Moscow build and get an archer in 2. Currently we are
losing 1 gp/ turn with 7 in the bank. Not sure what to do but figure I'll
decide next turn.

IBT Hittites attack the Punk on the mountain and he loses. This is a pretty big
problem. The 2 Hittites move to the mountain and another moves up behind them.

3100 BC Turn 18
Worker starts on road.
S2 moves NW to the hill.
Warrior moves 1 N
Moscow changes to an archer (next turn) The Hittites still aren't in our
territory.
Not losing any more gold after the Punk died

IBT 1 Hitties warrior moves onto our mine, the other fortifies on the mountain
(it was at 2hp). 3rd one moves N to the hill under the 2hp guy.

3050 BC Turn 19
Moscow builds an archer and we are back to -1 GPT
Archer attacks Hittite warrior and wins (but down to 1 hp)
Warrior moves 1 N
Spear fortifies on the archer to protect him.

IBT both Hittite warriors move NE to the hills NW and SW of our units
Another warrior appears in front of S2

3000 BC Turn 20
Archer and spear move back to Moscow and fortify
Warrior moves NE (2 from Moscow and safe from the Hittites)
S2 moves S
Thought the warrior near S2 was a hittite but it seems he is a Yank.
They are up masonry but we can't get it.
Declare war!

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/CbobPhaedo1st20.jpg

This is going to be really tough. Declaring as soon as we meet people and no
peace is totally different that any game I have ever played. I gotta say I'm
way out of my comfort zone.

This is going to be really tough. Declaring as soon as we meet people and no
peace is totally different that any game I have ever played. I gotta say I'm
way out of my comfort zone.

'That's a fact, Jack!'

Yes, making war all the time is very different. And reading about doesn't really begin to explain the difference.


The brave things in the old tales and songs, Mr. Frodo...the tales that really mattered, or the ones that stay in the mind. Folk seem to have been just landed in them. I expect they had lots of chances, like us, of turning back, only they didn't.

And that is us.

I'll be posting my turns later this evening.

D'Artangan59, please do post your game. We are here to learn, not point fingers.

In fact, you'll be the tie-breaker if we can't agree on a start, since you have no built in bias.

:bowdown: Forgive the spam but...
Sam is the best character on the LOTR trilogy because he is the most humble and experiences the events as they impact his friends. Although it is just game-playing, there are moments when these SGs reach the same epic level and relationships seem to develop through the struggle. It won't save the world, but a certain truth happens in these games that can be shared by the observer.
And off we go :D

0 4000 BC

We are on a grassland and 2 BGs are very nearby, inside our initial nine tiles. We are next to a river and a rather long river at that.
Looks like a good place to call home.
Found Mosaic Moscow. Grows in 10, warrior in 5.
Worker01 moves west to BG, to mine and later road.
Scout01 heads west to the mountain.
Not bad. Goody huts to the north and lakes further west. Lots of fresh water around here. Lots of cities at size 12 with no extra plumbing needed.


We decide to learn Ceremonial Burial for a turn or two, until we check out the goody hut.

[I] 1 3950 BC

Worker01 mines (6 Worker Turns).
Scout01 heads north.
Set science to 100%.



[I] 2 3900 BC

Goody hut just gives 25 gold, no smarts. :(
Switch from CB to IW, 40 turns.



[I] 3 3850 BC

Scout01 N, mountain to mountian. Sees grapes and a volcano.



[I] 4 3800 BC

Scout01 E, mountain to mountain. Sees a goody hut to the east.



[I] 5 3750 BC

Scout01 E and E and we get a new city, Silly St. Peteys. Bad location, in the middle of a desert.
Silly St. Peteys grows in 10, warrior in 5.
Warrior01, just built in Mosiac Moscow, heads south to explore.

Fiddle with the preferences to always ask for a build request after building a unit.
Mosiac Moscow is building a worker, due in 5 turns.



[I] 6 3700 BC

Warrior01 S.
Scout01 E and E onto hill, sees the ocean.



[I] 7 3650 BC

Scout01 N and N, comes to what looks like lands-end.
Worker01 finishes the mine, begins to road this tile.
Warrior01 S.



[I] 8 3600 BC

Warrior01 S.
Scout01 W and W, sees the north coast of Russia.



[I] 9 3550 BC

Scout01, W, onto hill.
Warrior01 S, sees two spices.


Mosiac Moscow worker (02) -> granary, 20 turns.
Silly St. Peteys warrior (02) -> warrior, 5 turns.

[I] 10 3500 BC

Worker02 moves SW to BG, to mine and to road.
Worker01 moves S to BG, to mine and to road.
Warrior01 SE.
Warrior02 heads to Mosiac Moscow to protect our workers.
Scout01 W.



[I] 11 3450 BC

Warrior02 S.
Worker01 and 02 begin mines.
Warrior01 SE, sees a clump of three cows, excellent city site, but very far from the current Russian core.
Scout01 W and W, onto hill near the volcano.



[I] 12 3400 BC

Scout01 W and W again, sees goody hut.
Warrior02 SW.
Warrior01 SE.


A light blue scout stole our goody hut and then vanished into the fog.

[I] 13 3350 BC

Scout01 SW SW, onto mountain.
Warrior02 arrives in Mosiac Moscow.
Warrior01 sees the ocean and heads west.
Warrior01 sees a bluish-green border.



[I] 14 3300 BC

Warrior01 NW, parrell to the new border.
Warrior02 fortifies in Mosiac Moscow.
Scout01 is on a mountain in the middle of another desert. Well, there is a river with flood plains, but nothing interesting.
Scout01 heads south and south.


Someone in blue-green clothing is east of Mosiac Moscow.

Silly St. Peteys warrior (03) -> warrior, 5 turns.

[I] 15 3250 BC

Talk to the Blue-Green people. They are the Hittites.
Hittites know about:
Masonry
Alphabet
Warrior Code
Ceremonial Burial

Hittites will not let us buy this knowledge.

Our military advisor says that we are weak compared to the Hittites.

Warrior03 fortifies in Silly St. Peteys for future crowd control.
Warrior01 moves west to map the Hittite borders.
Scout02 S and S.

Talk to the Hittites again. They have 30 gold and two cities. We have 37 gold and two cities.
Try to bully them into giving techs. They do not.
We declare war on the Hittites.



[I] 16 3200 BC

Scout01 south.
Warrior01 SW onto mountain, sees Hittite worker.


Hittite worker heads west into the fog, 2 Hittite warriors appear, heading north.

[I] 17 3150 BC

Warrior01 N.
Worker01 and 02 build roads (3WT each).
Scout01 S and S.



[I] 18 3100 BC

Scout01 E, sees Hittite war party to the southeast.
Warrior01 N.


Two bands of Hittite warriors, not one. Two warriors in each party, for a total of four.

[I] 19 3050 BC

Scout01 N and NE onto hilltop, now 2N of one war party. Will they follow Scout01?
Warrior01 N.


Both war parties turn NE.

Silly St. Peteys warrior (04) -> warrior, 5 turns.

[I] 20 3000 BC

Warrior04 heads to Mosaic Moscow, will arrive in 4 turns.
Worker01 and 02, mines and roads completed, move northeast across the river and begin to road to Silly St. Peteys.
Warrior01 N.
Scout01 SW and SW.

[IBT]

Four Hittite rWarriors are heading towards us. We have three rWarriors to defend, with maybe a fourth warrior if we take the MP for SStP.

3000 BC Russian Empire
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob01/3000BC_RussiaTrimmedDotted.jpg

3000 BC Bothersome Hittites
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob01/3000BC_SETrimmedDotted.jpg

Here goes nothing.


Turn 0 - 4000BC
Moscow founded on the spot. Reveals some desert N of us. Set to build Warrior in 5
Research Iron Working at 100%, due in 40.
Worker W to BG
Scout 2W to mountain, reveals a bunch of lakes (not a coast as first thought), hills, and a goody hut on a mountain 2N of the scout. This could be good if we can grow past 6 without building a bunch of aqueducts.

F10 doesn't work (I guess because no space victory enabled. From F11, it appears 5 of our foes are (and I never got an answer on if this was legal, but I read it was, but in case you do not want to know
Americans
Hittites
Germans
Babylonians
Aztecs

IBT: zzz

Turn 1 - 3950BC
Worker begins a road.
For reasons I stated in a previous post, I want to explore N first, since we are on a continent just N of the equator we may only find 1 AI up there. Scout 1N

IBT: zzz

Turn 2 - 3900BC
Scout 1N to goody hut mountain. We get 25 gold from the Goths. More hills revealed.

IBT: zzz

Turn 3 - 3850BC
Scout 1N to mountain. See some grapes.

IBT: zzz

Turn 4 - 3800BC
Worker finishes road, IW now due in 29. Worker begins mine.
Scout NE,N We are exploring the steppes now.

IBT: zzz

Turn 5 - 3750BC
Moscow Warrior-->Spear. Why? If our potential opponents are MIL, I like the defense against their archers.
Warrior move 1W. I want to see from that hill. I do not want to move the warrior far from Moscow though, since any other explorers that come through we have to declare on.
Scout N,E - we found the coast already! From the hill we see more plains and forest.

IBT: zzz

Turn 6 - 3700BC
Warrior 1W to hill. This is the coast here too, as we suspected. There are 2 sugar too.
Scout E,E to the forest.

IBT: zzz

Turn 7 - 3650BC
Warrior 1N to hill.
Scount E,SE, as we are hugging the coast now.

IBT: zzz

Turn 8 - 3600BC
Warrior SW back toward Moscow
Scout S,S to hill. View of the coast is complete, and there is a goody hut 2W.

IBT: zzz

Turn 9 - 3550BC
Warrior SW back toward Moscow
Scout W,W to goody hut. The Goths gave us maps. Gee thanks, we already knew most of that.

IBT: Moscow expands borders and grows.

Turn 10 - 3500BC
IW now due in 19, Spear due in 2.
Warrior W to Moscow.
Scout 2W to head back to unexplored territory.
Worker SE to BG

IBT: zzz

Turn 11 - 3450BC
Worker roads
Warrior W,SW. With the spear due in next we can explore a little.
Scout 2NW

IBT: zzz

Turn 12 - 3400BC
Moscow Spear-->Warrior. I would go straight for a Settler, but since this is AW I think I want an escort for my settler.
Spear fortifies in Moscow.
Scout N,W See a whole lotta nothing.
Warrior W to hill and we have our first contac..er, victim. It's Lincoln's scout. Linc has Masonry but will not trade it, even if I set the sliders to 0. Well screw you then. We declare

IBT: American scout moves N

Turn 13 - 3350BC
Warrior W
Scout w,NW. See hut.

IBT: American scout moves W out of our range

Turn 14 - 3300BC
Warrior SW to gold mountain. see more grapes and rivers.
Worker begins mine
Scout 1NW to pop hut - we get more maps. move 1 NW again and... there's an American warrior there that was in the fog before. Ouch.

IBT: Warrior kills our scout.

Turn 15 - 3250BC
Moscow Warrior-->Settler. First Warrior renamed to Warrior1 and moves W,NW. I think settling on the hill next to the lake might be good - there is access to a grassland there and a lot of shield potential.
Warrior explorer moves NW.

IBT: zzz

Turn 16 - 3200BC
Warrior1 moves N.
Rename other Warrior to Warrior2, move NW

IBT: Glimpse American scout moving in and out of the fog.

Turn 17 - 3150BC
Warrior1 explorer moves W.
Warrior2 moves NW

IBT: Glimpse American scout moving.

Turn 18 - 3100BC
Warrior1 NW
Warrior2 N

IBT: 2 American warriors heading toward our first Warrior

Turn 19 - 3050BC
Warrior1 retreats E
Warrior2 W

IBT: 2 American warriors continue their advance

Turn 20 - 3000BC
Warrior1 retreats E. There may be an opportunity to get the 2 American warriors to attack against a hill across a river.
Warrior2 climbs mountain and sees the other American warrior, on its way in.
Worker moves E
There are now dark blue borders to the NW. I fear that is not the Americans, but no one shows up in the diplomacy window yet.

I think I hit some bad luck on that set, losing the scout and not popping any techs or other useful items from the huts, so we'll see what y'all think. Critiques are most welcome.

Edit - apparently I need to learn how to attach bigger pics. I'll work on that next :p

Turn 1: 4000 BC
I see lots of river and water to the east. I move the scout 1 SW to see what that reveals. 1 more move W puts him on the hill.
I see a small lake due west of the hill and some brown to the north of that -- could be plains, could be desert. Very hard to tell at this point.
Settler is standing on a grassland (FGS: 2/1/0), bordering on a river. This looks like as good a spot as any, and better than most. Moscow is founded, revealing desert and an oasis to the north..
Tech set to Iron Works at 90%, will have it in 40 turns. I would have set it to 100% if that had gained anything, but that was also 40 turns to IW.
Worker moved 1 SW onto BG, will begin building mine.
Look at CA2 -- I can move the citizen to work the forest. I lose a food, but gain a shield. I really want that warrior.

Moscow (20)
Warrior (4)
IW (40)

Turn 2: 3950BC
Worker begins mine.
Scout 1W onto next hill. I see gold and fresh water, but wasted a scout move. (Doh!)
Moscow (19)
Warrior (3)
IW (39)

Turn 3: 3900BC
My scout is now ringed by hills and swamp. He can move only 1 tile in any direction. Looking at the minimap, I choose south onto another hill. Still more fresh water, but not much else. We're not exactly at the polar caps in any direction, but I decide to explore away from the desert for now. I need to find some luxes, though. We won't be able to trade for them later.
Looking at Moscow, I discover that I can now move the citizen to work the BG due west of the city. That gets me growth in 9 (rather than 18), while still getting the warrior in 2.

Moscow (9)
Warrior (2)
IW (38)

Turn 4: 3850BC
Again, the scout is in hilly terrain, so I can only move 1 tile. I go 1 SE to get on the mountain that is 4 tiles due SW of Moscow. I see some game down by the water. It's a long way from Moscow, but a good location.
Moscow (8)
Warrior next turn w/ no overrun.

Turn 5: 3800BC
I don't need the warrior for MP, so I'm going to send him on some short-range recon. I don't want him so far that he can't protect Moscow, though. For now, though, I want him to wait until the scout has moved.
Scout jumps down from the mountain, 1 due S. . . I SEE A HITTITE WARRIOR!
Rename our Warrior to Warrior 001and send him 1 tile E. I see some hills and possibly some forest.
Set Moscow to build another warrior.
Go talk to the Hittites, with the following results: (1) no, they won't loan me any gold; (2) I can't trade him out of Alphabet; but he'll take bronze working for ceremonial burial. I consult the Civilopedia (CB gets us temples -- not great, but puts us on the path to monarchy) and CA2. CB is estimated to cost 53, while BW is estimated to cost 74. I haggle. He'll give me CB and all of his gold 10. Deal done, war declared.


Turn 6: 3750BC
Hittite warrior beelines for Scout 001, who bravely runs away, 1 NE, 1 E.
I count tiles. Hittite Warrior can be at Moscow in 5 turns. Warrior can get on this hill, and still be back in Moscow in 3.
W001 climbs the hill. I have found the Eastern Ocean. Sugar grows along the coast,
Moscow grows in 6
Warrior 002 will be built in 4. I could speed it up to 3, but don't. It would not increase the number of warriors that I could have by the time the Hittites could arrive.
Iron Working in 35

Turn 7: 3700BC
Scout 001 goes 1 E. I'd like to scout south, but I don't know where that Hittite is any more. The jungle, unfortunately, means that I only get 1 move.
Warrior 001 goes 1 W to head back to Moscow.

Moscow (6)
Warrior (3)
IW (34)

Turn 8: 3650BC
I notice that CA2 calls this turn 7 (?)
Worker finishes mine, begins road on BG 1 SW of Moscow.
Warrior 001 moves into Moscow. I'm going to fortify him on the worker as soon as I can. Soon, I'll have another worker in Moscow, and I can't afford the loss of my only worker.
Zoom to Moscow to check tile optimization.
Citizen currently working BG on River for 2 food, 1 shield, 1 gold. I can put him on the BG with the mine for 2 food, 1 shields, 0 gold. I want to examine this. Leaving the worker where he is gives me: (a) growth in 4; (b) warrior in 2; and (c) IW in 33. Moving over to the mined BG right now means: (a) growth in 4; (b) warrior in 2; and (c) IW in 43. Moving citizen to the forest (1/2/1) would give me: (1) growth in 8; (b) warrior in 2; and (c) IW in 33. Looks like I'm getting the warrior in 2 no matter what. With growth in 4 and IW in 33, the grassland due W of Moscow (on the river) is the best option.
Scout 001 moves 1 SE. I don't want to run into that Hittite, but my only other option at this point is to head back towards Moscow. I see spices in the jungle almost due S of Moscow. Unfortunately, they're quite a distance away.

Turn 9: 3600BC
First move: put the warrior on the worker. Moscow will build its warrior next turn, so it's (relatively) safe.
Scout 001 begins his trek back north by heading 2 E along the coast. There's tons more continent to explore, but I can't risk losing him right now. If there be goodie huts to the north, I need to pop them.
Check Moscow. Growth in 3, Warrior in 2 (no overrun).

Turn 10: 3550BC
Fortify Warrior 001 onto the worker for now.
Warrior 002 build and named, fortified in Moscow.
Check with Military Advisor -- "Compared to these guys, our military is weak!" I don't like the sounds of that, but I want another scout so as not to waste the Expansionist trait.
Scout 002 begun, will arrive in 5. I could have him in 4, but that sets IW back from 31t to 41t.
Scout 001 is on the coast, due SE of Moscow. Point him 2N, head for the fog.

Turn 11: 3500BC
Moscow's borders finally expand due to culture!
A lone Hittite Warrior spotted 2W, 1S from Moscow. He's a regular, but I've only got 2 Warriors myself. I'd have to send half our military to take him out. I consider the fact that he's in a swamp. I could send one warrior and put him on the hill right next to the Hittite, and try to kill the Hittite defending, but decide that prudence is the better part of valor right now.
Road finished -- zoom to Moscow before deciding next worker action. Growth in 1 and IW in 30, no matter where the citizen works (except the forest, which puts growth in 2). Put the citizen on the mined, roaded tile.
Worker moves 1 E of improved tile, W001 goes with him.
Scout 001 moves 1 NW to avoid losing a movement point on the hill to the N, and then 1 N. -- Sees more desert (oh, boy) and a hill.

Turn12: 3450BC
Moscow has grown to 2, and is producing 4/6/5 if grass due W of Moscow and our one improved tile are worked..
IW in 24 (Science still at 90%, and 100% still makes no difference in # of turns to IW).
Fortify Warrior 001 over worker.
Worker begins irrigation.
Scout 001 goes 1 N, spots a GH to the NW. Pops hut -- SETTLER!!!
Scout 002 completed next turn w/ no overrun.

Relative to Moscow, the new settler is positioned like this:

Sxx
xxx
xxx
xxx
xxM

This is farther than I want the next city to be from Moscow, so I begin assessing positions. I didn't really want him in the desert, but getting out of the desert takes at least two moves and would put the two at CxxxC. Alternatively, I could take two moves and make them:

Sxx
xxx
xxM

This would put the settler next to a forest and closer to known fresh water, so I opt for that. Settler 1 SW.

Turn13: 3400BC
Moscow builds Scout, whom I will unimaginatively call Scout 002.
Begin next warrior.
I'd like to begin thinking about settlers, but I'm 9 turns from growth and a settler is 8 turns out.
Scout 001 1 N and then 1 NE.
I spy a GH due NW of Moscow and send Scout 002 that way.
My treasury is at 19 and (-2 gpt), but I cannot generate more income at this point. I can either break even and get IW in 37 turns, or go to 70%, which means -1 gpt and get it in 28. Neither one is a good option, but I go for the latter. I'll have a second city soon, and can generate gpt from it. I'll have to monitor this closely. The warrior in 3 turns isn't going to help my treasury, either.

Turn 14: 3350BC
Scout 002 goes 1 N and 1 W to get to the GH -- 25 gold.
St. Petersburg founded. It wants to put the citizen on the oasis for 2F/1S/0G. I move citizen to the grass by the river for 2F/0S/1G -- that gives me growth in 10, a warrior in 10, IW in 22 and +2 gpt to the treasury. No immediate threats. The Hittite is just biding his time on the edge of my borders.
Scout 001 goes 1 NW, then 1 E.
Talking to my F1 Advisor, I can break even on the treasury and get IW in 16. Sounds good, so I do it.
CA2 tells me that the Hittites now have the Alphabet, Warrior Code and Masonry.

Turn 15: 3300BC
Scout 001 moves south up onto a hill. I know the coast is there, but I want to complete that part of my mapping. 1 S and 1 SE finishes the coasline NE of Moscow.
Scout 002 moves onto the mountain 1 due N and sees . . . (drum roll) . . . grapes! Nothing like a little wine to make our subjects happy, eh, comrades?

Moscow:
Growth (7)
Warrior (1) -- check for overruns CA2 says Moscow will overrun by 2 shields As it stands, my coins/beakers/smilies are 0/5/0. I don't need a clown; both of my citizens are content. Regardless of which citizen becomes a specialist, I stunt Moscow's growth for a turn. This is a very tough decision for me. Do I waste shields and continue to grow (food is currently at 6, consuming 4, for net +2 gain), or do I create a 1-turn specialist and avoid the waste? I go for the latter. I don't like wasting a turn of pop growth, but I don't want to just waste the shields, either. Next, the question is which specialist:

A) A tax collector gives me 2/4/0 coins/beakers/smilies.
B) A scientist gives me 0/7/0.

I take the scientist because my treasury, while low, is stable and I really, really want my iron on the map. Besides, (A) gives me 6 of something and (B) gives me 7 somethings.

St. Petersburg:
Growth (9)
Warrior(9)

Turn 16: 3250BC
Grass SE of Moscow irrigated, road begun.
Visit Moscow, switch geek back.
Warrior built in Moscow, unceremoniously named Warrior 003, which I'm sure stuns everyone.
The regular Hittite warrior is still standing outside my boundaries, but he's not getting any experience fighting barbs, he's not exploring and he's not attacking. He can wait.
Warrior 003 heads to St. Petersburg for MP duty.
Moscow will grow in 7 and I could build a settler in 8. I opt for a granary, to be completed in 15. Frankly, I don't know how this will work out in terms of finishing the granary before growth, but I'll just have to monitor.
Worker begins road.
Scout 002 goes 1 N onto the grapes and sees the edge of what I believe to be the Northern Sea.
Scout 001 heads 2 NW to begin to clear away the fog on the northern coastline.
Military advisor says our military is still weak.
IW in 13.

Turn 17: 3200BC
Scout 001 hears the howling of the wolves and goes 1 N. He can't head any further due N, so he goes 1 NW from there. Sees some very odd-looking forests.
Scout 002 goes 2 N and finishes all but one square of fog between Moscow and the Northern Sea.

Moscow (6) & Granary 14
St. Petersburg (7) & Warrior 7
Treasury 43 +0 gpt
IW 12

Note, I could get the warrior in St. Pete's in 4, but then I'd get IW in 14. I'd rather have Iron at this point.


Turn 18: 3150BC
2 more Hittites join the slacker on my western border. RUSSIANS, LOOK ALIVE! Now I'm grateful that I didn't switch St. Pete's over to a worker like I considered two turns back.
Scout 001 moves 1 W, clears last bit of fog in his area, but no more GHs.
Scout 002 goes 1W into the forest and sees more lovely desert.

Turn 19: 3100BC
Hittites move up onto a mountain.
Road completed.
Worker moves to 1 N of Moscow. Time to connect Moscow and St. Pete's.
Scout 001 moves 2 SW onto a hill.
Scout 002 moves 2 NW. Not much up here in these wastelands.
CA2: Hittites haven't learned anything new and have 27 gold.
Wake fortified Warrior 001 and put him in Moscow. Fortify him.

Turn 20: 3050BC
CA2 calls this Turn 19, so I'm going to play "just one more turn." (Now isn't that the story of my life?)
Move Worker 1 SE. If he's due N of Moscow, the Hittites can attack him without going through my warriors. Let's make 'em work for it.
Scout 001 goes 1 S, 1 W. Crossing known territory.
Scout 002 goes 1 NW and sees fish and what may be another continent (?!?). Moves 1 W.
Iron Working in 9 has to be shifted back to Iron Working in 11. That way, St. Pete's gets its warrior in 2.

Turn 21: 3000 B.C.
(CA2 calls this "Turn 20")
HITTITES ATTACK!
Warrior 001 kills Hittite warrior.
Warrior 002 kills Hittite warrior and is promoted to veteran. In grand ceremony, he is renamed Warrior v002!
Third Hittite warrior dulls his axe against our Russian warrior and unceremoniously dies. In my excitement over W002's promotion, I miss which one of ours killed him.
Military leader says I'm now allowed 8 units and I have only six.
He also says that, compared to the Hittites, our military is strong. Maybe I should send our veteran warrior out to find and destroy these ingrates, these Hittites who are should be so honored to share our soil? St Pete's will have a warrior in 1 with no overrun. I wake the warrior at St. Pete's and send him south to Moscow. The two at Moscow are healed, one regular, one vet. Let's go looking for some Hittites.
Scout 001 goes 1 W. This puts him on the grapes.
Scout 002 sees a blue border. Who are these interlopers who have so callously invaded our continent? Scout 002 goes 1 SW and still can't see who they are. After then moving 1 W, he still can't see the city. I cannot make contact this turn.
Worker begins road on tile 1 NE of Moscow.
Warriors 001 and v002 head south.
Visit St. Petersburg, MM citizen back to grass for research, warrior in 2.

Overview:
Moscow: Size 2, growth in 2, granary in 10.
St. Petersburg: Size 1, growth in 3, warrior in 2.
Treasury:43 +0 gpt
Tech: Iron Working in 9
Who we know: Hittites
What we know: Pottery, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial

Gold far to the west and the east.
Sugar to the east.
Wines to the north.
Spices to the south.

Here endeth Aabraxan's Chronicles of Conquering Cossacks, Part the First.

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/3487/cbob013000bcyy9.th.jpg (http://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cbob013000bcyy9.jpg)

Interesting, most of you settled northwards instead of along the river. I do realize that the enemies are coming from the south and west, but you could use the river down south to your advantage. (Commerce and defense-wise)

I think only Aabra had an option of settling. As I understood CBob's post, he popped a city not a settler so he didn't have a choice. CivActuary and I didn't get a settler so there wasn't any settlement. It seems Aabra chose to settle and get the value from the city rather than lose that value through movement. I don't think I would have made the same choice but I think there is some value to his reasoning. Taking all that time to move south would have been a tough decesion especially without an escort. It may have been worth it, but I don't think I could have done it.

I really felt the pressure and fear of AW. Time seemed short and every turn seemed like another step towards oblivion. Still, I think the desert build was a tad wasteful. I think I would have gone to the hill SSE of the grapes. I like a wider city spacing though and my though patterns could really be way off on this.

Just some analysis,

Military:

Phaedo
1 spear
1 Archer
1 Warrior
(all regulars)
1 worker
1 scout

CBob
5 warriors (reg)
2 workers
1 scout

CivActuary
2 warriors
1 spear
(all reg)
1 worker

Aabraxan
2 warriors (1 vet)
2 scouts
1 worker

Cities:
Phaedo (Moscow 3 grow in 10)Archer in 3
CBob (Moscow 2 grow in 10, Silly Pete's 2 grow in 15) Gran in 6, War in 5
CivA (Moscow 3 grow in 10) Settler in 2
Aabra (Moscow 2 grow in 2, St Pete's 1 grow in 3) Gran in 10, War in 2

Research:
Phaedo WC, IW in 25
CBob IW in ?
CivA IW in 8
Aabra IW in 9

CBob and Aabra had some luck with the huts but the biggest thing I see is just how big a difference CBob's worker build made. Moscow will be tough and a real producer with those three mines. The five warriors seem more valuable now than the extra scout too.

Looking at our position, I like the WC research as the first choice in this kind of game. We are going to be stuck with warriors for a while even if iron appears in our empire (it's going to take a while to get it roaded and we don't have an over abundance of workers). We could have had archers and be in a position to really have a strong attack force:sad: . No crying over spilt milk now though.

I'd say CBob's and CivA's games are best. The extra city in CBob's save gives it the upper hand in my opinion. The 5 warriors are pretty spread out and it would need to consolidate them to make an effective defence but that seems quite possible.

In the 4 turns that the Hitties will take to get to us, the sugar warrior can be back. I like the idea of fighting out in the open rather than letting them get to our borders. If we put the little warrior by the game on the mountain he should be pretty tough. We can have a couple of warriors on the hill waiting to pounce if the blue meanies move to the grass (although I'm betting they will go to the marsh). Regardless, we should be in a postion to defeat them.

We're going to want barracks but maybe Moscow should get on a settler after the grannary. We'll have a warrior and maybe even a spear for protection and settling where our warrior is standing next to the game is probably my choice for the next site.

I guess that's all I can think of for now:)

I explored more north than south for one very basic reason: fear. I did not want to meet another civ real early and figured that heading north would avoid the great unwashed masses of the other civs.

So right now we know that we have Hittites and Americans close by. Three of us meet the Blue-Greenies; one of us met the Light Blue Fly Boys.

The Hittites have two cities. Depending on the start, we might have two cities. One of the reasons I went for a granary was to make more settlers. And we have some good rivers to settle on, don't want to let them go to waste. I expect that somewhere we can make a settler factory, which will let us grow quickly. Even in AW, we have got to have cities to produce fighting units. I gambled that we would not meet anyone real soon or real close and then got lucky on the second city.

Only Aabraxan has had the honor of giving someone else the chance to die for their country (to mangle a famous war-time saying of George S Patton). Lucky. :D
When I met the enemy I ran away.

@Aabraxan: 4000 BC is considered Turn 0, not Turn 1. That is why you and CA2 differ. I just learned this in SGOTM11 where I had the first turns; hadn't paid attention to it before.

Oops. Cross posted with Phaedo.

Just some analysis

Thanks! I was just kicking myself for not having posted my end of turn stats.


We're going to want barracks but maybe Moscow should get on a settler after the grannary. We'll have a warrior and maybe even a spear for protection and settling where our warrior is standing next to the game is probably my choice for the next site.

We do need a barracks in Moscow (any game) but not right away. Especially with only one city, a barracks means we cannot build anything else for a while and we do need to worry some about crowd control and unruly neighbors. Just shooting from the hip (and not looking at any game) I would go with Moscow building granary -> settler -> warrior -> settler -> barracks. A lot would depend on Moscow's growth and production cycles. That is, once Moscow built a setter, how long it would take to back to that same size. We might be able to build a settler in 4 turns (30 shields), but if we drop from size 3 to 1, we haven't really done ourselves any good.

This is something we need to examine further regardless of the game start.

We do need more cities and that almost always means a granary somewhere early. Moscow has plenty of food and shields, it is early in the game and we have no immediate threats. Make it, use it and spread out along the rivers.

Right now warriors are cheap, cheaper than spears. One spear costs the same as two warriors. Two warriors defend the same as one spear but attack twice as much. We can make warriors faster than spears. So until we get Iron Working and have iron connected, warriors are the best offensive unit we have, a pretty good defensive unit (especially in stacks of two) and are very good for keeping the citizens happy and productive.

And I don't mind if the enemy units want to walk all the way to us. Let them. While they are walking we are making units for defense and offense. They walk up to us and we beat them down, on our turf, with superior numbers and then we take our units and walk back to them. We will withstand their first attacks; they will not withstand ours.

Which sounds good in theory, anyway. Reality may not be so kind.

Good sets all.

I think I tend to favor CBob's set. That extra city and extra worker make a big difference going forward. In retrospect, in my set I should not have wasted time with the spear. Plus in my set I would switch the build to a granery. More cities means more military.

One question for now:

I notice you all had worker actions of mine then road, while my actions were just the opposite. Is this just a personal preference or is this the generally preferred way to go?

Nice work, Phaedo. Being able to see the numbers lined up like that is really, really helpful for me. I sat down last night and read all of the turnlogs, but didn't have time to put the numbers together like that.

I think you're right that I was the only one who got the option to settle. You're also right about my reasoning on settling. I figured: better to settle than lose production and, potentially, the settler. The reason that I didn't move south of Moscow was fear. I knew that the Hittites were down there somewhere. I felt that a settler at this stage of the game was just too valuable to risk. As to where I placed the settler, well, I just don't know. At the time, I figured I could irrigate the desert, but right now I'm not even sure if that's true. (Sorry, guys, it's early.) I also didn't want to be too far from Moscow.

I think CivA had basically rotten luck in his goodie huts, but played very well. His Moscow will be the first to produce a settler, but that will also set it back to size 1. He's one turn in front of me on IW for the moment, but I don't know what will happen when he pops that settler and Moscow goes back to size one. He also did a much better job of clearing the fog than I did. Truth be told, I was not all that ambitious about clearing fog early in this game. That might have meant meeting more opponents before I was ready.

CommandoBob's was also good game. Five warriors . . . well, that just rocks! Most excellent work, CB! But his population growth is behind the rest. Like Phaedo, I could not tell where his research stands. And CB, thanks for the comments regarding my being the only one who let a Hittite die for his country. Let's not fool ourselves, though, my warriors bravely watched that Hittite from the safety of Moscow for 4 centuries. . . I would add, though, that this is what I meant when I said that AW is not the same as stupid. I don't have a problem with running from an enemy if it serves a purpose. Don't attack with an obviously inferior force. Heck, don't attack with an equal force if you can help it.

As to my own game, I was pretty happy with it. Unlike the first round that I posted in Phaedo's SG, my game was comparable. It was by no means the best game posted, but it wasn't so far behind as to be embarrassing. I think I was the only one who actually accomplished a trade. What did y'all think of the trade that I made with the Hittites? (CB + 10 gold for BW) Was that a good move or a foolish one? I think I made some worker mistakes though. I have a grassland next to the river that I've roaded and irrigated, but I won't work it until Moscow grows again. I know this because I kept comparing it to the mined/roaded BG and the forest and the grassland kept losing out. Once I get another citizen, Moscow might become a viable settler factory, but we'll have to see. I also note that my population growth is about 2 turns behind the others and this looks like a direct result of the decision I made in 4000 BC to go for shields rather than food.

It also looks like CBob and I were the only ones who never built a single spear.

I had hoped to pop WC from a goodie hut, but that didn't happen. Frankly, I think there are good arguments to be made for researching either IW or WC early on in this game. I stand by my decision to go for IW, but I certainly can't fault Phaedo for going to WC. In fact, he's the only one who has successfully researched a tech. He's got archers. I don't.

I agree w/ CB on the barracks issue. We may be at war, but we've still got expansion to take care of. We'll never be able to send out a settler alone, but we need to start pumping out settlers and escorts. Right now, the time that we'd invest in a barracks is better invested in a granary or more warriors, imo. We need a barracks, just not yet.

Edit: x-posted w/ CivActuary

One question for now:

I notice you all had worker actions of mine then road, while my actions were just the opposite. Is this just a personal preference or is this the generally preferred way to go?

For me, it depends on the situation. Here, I thought I needed the shields more than the extra commerce, so I went with mines. Where I need commerce, I'll set roads first.

For me, it depends on the situation. Here, I thought I needed the shields more than the extra commerce, so I went with mines. Where I need commerce, I'll set roads first.
True. Probably why I ended up one turn in front of you for IW though, the commerce from the road. I agree the shield might have been better served though for more military in this situation though, I just defaulted to what I usually do.

I liked the trade you made. CB is a tech we will need to get to Monarchy, so it has value in trading for. And IMO, by the time we get to the point where we feel we are powerful enough to go attack some cities, I think the AIs will have spears anyway so I would not have held the trade up because I didn't want them to have spears.

Re: irrigating the grassland - would we be able to take advantage of this in despotism?

True. Probably why I ended up one turn in front of you for IW though, the commerce from the road.

I agree.

I agree the shield might have been better served though for more military in this situation though, I just defaulted to what I usually do.

Might have been. At the point where you've got to make that decision, though, it's very hard to know what's going to pay off.

I liked the trade you made. CB is a tech we will need to get to Monarchy, so it has value in trading for. And IMO, by the time we get to the point where we feel we are powerful enough to go attack some cities, I think the AIs will have spears anyway so I would not have held the trade up because I didn't want them to have spears.

That was part of my thinking, too. I figured that the AI would get spears soon enough, so why not get something out of them that helps us to monarchy, and some gold to boot?

Re: irrigating the grassland - would we be able to take advantage of this in despotism?

Probably not. That's one of the worker mistakes I made. I'm bad about forgetting the despo penalty. I get so focused on finishing a tile before moving on, I forget to assess whether or not the improvement will do me any good.

By the way, I'll be out of pocket and probably without internet access October 11 & 12.

One question for now:

I notice you all had worker actions of mine then road, while my actions were just the opposite. Is this just a personal preference or is this the generally preferred way to go?

In the early game, when workers are few and turns are precious, I have learned to improve the tile first (mine or irrigate) and then road.

Improving first, then roading, lets you benefit from the improvement faster.

Roading and then mining a bonus grassland will take 10 turns (one to move onto the tile, three to road and six to mine) and will produce, at most, 1 extra shield (at the end of turn 10) for a total of 11 shields.

Mining first, and then roading this same tile will still take 10 turns. But it will produce 13 or 14 shields, not 11 as above. One turn to move, six turns to mine and three turns to road. But on the three turns of roading, the tile is now producing 2 shields, not one.

Keep in mind that you want to avoid two things in early worker turn management. First, you don't want to backtrack. The AI loves to backtrack workers, so never automate. Second, every tile your worker touches will be roaded. So improve first, get the bonus production, and then road.

In the later game, with a bunch of workers in stacks, sometimes it makes sense to road first and then improve. And when you need roads to connect (like to wine, for instance), you need roads to connect and improvements can wait.

4000 BC: Found Moscow. Worker and Scout moved before. Starts Warrior. Search Alpha in 37.

3950 BC: Move Worker to a BG. Scout goes further west.

3900 BC: Starts Mine.

3850 BC: zzz...

3800 BC: zzz...

3750: Finish Warrior, start Scout. Fortifies.

3700: zzz...

3650: Meet Hittites. Declare.

3600: They send a Warrior.

3550: Marching.

3500: Scout finished. Starts Worker.

3450: zzz...

3400: Warrior reaches gates.

3350: Dead.

Note: I forget what I did.

In the early game, when workers are few and turns are precious, I have learned to improve the tile first (mine or irrigate) and then road.

Improving first, then roading, lets you benefit from the improvement faster.

Roading and then mining a bonus grassland will take 10 turns (one to move onto the tile, three to road and six to mine) and will produce, at most, 1 extra shield (at the end of turn 10) for a total of 11 shields.

Mining first, and then roading this same tile will still take 10 turns. But it will produce 13 or 14 shields, not 11 as above. One turn to move, six turns to mine and three turns to road. But on the three turns of roading, the tile is now producing 2 shields, not one.
All good points, and very true. And there are times when those 2 or 3 shields you will gain will make the difference in finishing a build 1 turn sooner. There may also be times I think when the 6 gold you are losing out on may make a difference as well though, so it could still depend on the circumstances.

Keep in mind that you want to avoid two things in early worker turn management. First, you don't want to backtrack. The AI loves to backtrack workers, so never automate. Second, every tile your worker touches will be roaded. So improve first, get the bonus production, and then road.

In the later game, with a bunch of workers in stacks, sometimes it makes sense to road first and then improve. And when you need roads to connect (like to wine, for instance), you need roads to connect and improvements can wait.
I wouldn't automate my workers if you had a gun to my head. I don't even like to automate them late game to clear pollution.

I double checked my save.

Russian Military

04 Warriors (no 05 as previously reported)
02 Workers
01 Scout


City Builds

Mosiac Moscow, grows in 10, granary in 6
Silly St. Peteys, grows in 15, rWarrior in 5

CB, where does your research stand?

Oh, dear D'artagnan, you should've been building another warrior, not a second scout! The odds of your death were quite high, actually. Military first in AW! Of course, you WERE sickened, so that could explain some things.

Exactly. I almost fainted in the shower.

I see a "???" in the list of players in the first post. Does that mean there's still a slot open? If so, I'd like to join. I'm an emperor/demigod player (with a few failed deity attempts), but I've never played AW and would like to give it a shot. If it's too late to join, I'll gladly lurk.

CB, where does your research stand?

According to CivAssist II, I have 9 turns left before I learn Iron Working. CAII shows a one (1) beaker overrun, and sometimes CAII and the game do not match up on the science turns, so without opening the game I'll say IW possibly in 9 turns, for sure in 10 turns.

I see a "???" in the list of players in the first post. Does that mean there's still a slot open? If so, I'd like to join. I'm an emperor/demigod player (with a few failed deity attempts), but I've never played AW and would like to give it a shot. If it's too late to join, I'll gladly lurk.
You're in!

And I'll change the first post.

I don't think any of us have played Always War; I know I haven't. According to Theodon's rating, this will be as difficult as an emperor level game, so don't expect a cake walk because we are at monarch. Though having two content citizens is a lot nicer than just one.

It is too late for you to play the first 20 turns and then post the results, but you are more than welcome to join in the discussion on which game we should continue with.

You're in!

And I'll change the first post.

I don't think any of us have played Always War; I know I haven't. According to Theodon's rating, this will be as difficult as an emperor level game, so don't expect a cake walk because we are at monarch. Though having two content citizens is a lot nicer than just one.

It is too late for you to play the first 20 turns and then post the results, but you are more than welcome to join in the discussion on which game we should continue with.
Thanks! I figured it was too late to play those turns out, but as for which to go with, I'd say yours. You and Aabra both have two cities, and it looks like he's a little ahead on researching IW, but the extra worker and warriors strike me as more valuable at this point. As for research, I'd have preferred to go for WC first, but we'll get that soon enough. And I'm definitely not expecting a cakewalk! Many of the strategies I use to win regular games (such as building minimal military early on to focus on workers and settlers) would be suicide in AW.

Are we ready to decide which save to play from?

Welcome. O Better One shall rejoin.

Are we ready to decide which save to play from?
As mentioned above, I vote for yours. My only concern is those four Hittite warriors en route to Mosaic Moscow. Can they be diverted? Moving our warrior to the mountain 1 SW of the green dot might work, but then again, the Hittites might just ignore it and go straight for the city. Maybe the scout can be used to lure a couple of Hittite warriors away.

I'm for CB's save too (despite my miscount on the warriors:wallbash: ). Are we settled on the next research? My vote goes for WC. Immediate archers will go a long way at knocking off the smurf warriors that come at us.

I'm on a short timetable for looking at this before Saturday, so I don't have time to discuss in depth right now. I don't have any objection to going with CB's save. I also think that WC would be a good choice after IW. For the record though, I have three warriors. Two are south of Moscow and one is between Moscow and St. Pete's.

Three out of five vote for one save, so we'll use that one.
I'll upload the save this evening.

The Roster Order is in sign up order.

Aabraxan - UP!
Phaedo - on deck
D'Artagnan59
CivActuary
Norton II
CommandoBob - just played


Warrior Code after Iron Working sounds good.

(Random stuff now, at work, away from the save, take with a grain of salt)

We can meet the 4 Hittites warrior with 4, maybe 5, of our own. I tried to get one pair to follow the scout, but they did not. I was planning to bring the warrior back to Mosiac Moscow and create a 4 warrior stack of doom. We might be able to move our SoD forward and fight each stack separately, something I did not consider earlier. I am not sure about attacking two warriors with one warrior. Seems like only a 25% that our warrior would survive attacking and then defending.

I would favor Silly St. Peteys to keep on cranking out warriors every five turns. If a warrior is still in SSP, let's move him to the front lines.

Mosiac Moscow will complete the granary in 6 turns, should start a settler next, but we need a place to build our third city.

Just a blueprint, written in pencil, and we alll have erasers.

Sounds good to me, as long as both pairs of warriors can be intercepted. Should SSP crank out another worker after a couple of warriors? As for a second city, how about the grassland 2 S, 1 SW from Mosaic Moscow? It's on a river, has a BG and at least 2 forests in its radius, and can be reinforced from Moscow in a single turn once we have a road. Moscow itself can also be a settler factory once the 2 flood plains are irrigated.
WC is the obvious choice for our next research, but after that, there are two main options: The Wheel followed by HBR, or Masonry-Alpha-Math. If it turns out we have iron nearby, I'd say go for the second one so we can have walls and catapults (and possibly a palace prebuild for the GLib). Doesn't look like we have ivory around, so no SoZ. No need to decide anything about that yet, though.

And the save is >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58993/CBob01_3000_BC.SAV).

As for a second city, how about the grassland 2 S, 1 SW from Mosaic Moscow? It's on a river, has a BG and at least 2 forests in its radius, and can be reinforced from Moscow in a single turn once we have a road. Moscow itself can also be a settler factory once the 2 flood plains are irrigated.
I was actually thinking of building back to the north, perhaps trying to snag the wines so that we need fewer MPs in our cities.

We really need a dot map to plan our next cities. We won't be building any in the next 10 turns, but we should be able to build one, maybe two, in the following turnset.

Just a quick confirmation,
Are we all taking the next save or are we in normal SG mode now?

We do need a dot map. I won't be able to do one up for the next couple of days but if no one does one before that, I'll try to post one Sunday.
Personally I like the idea of building towrds the Hittites. We do need a high shield city to get our military up. Another pump would be nice too. I'm assuming CxxC is what we are going for as we will be warring all the time.

Just a quick confirmation,
Are we all taking the next save or are we in normal SG mode now?

We do need a dot map. I won't be able to do one up for the next couple of days but if no one does one before that, I'll try to post one Sunday.
Personally I like the idea of building towrds the Hittites. We do need a high shield city to get our military up. Another pump would be nice too. I'm assuming CxxC is what we are going for as we will be warring all the time.
Normal SG mode now as I understand it. And I agree about building toward the Hittites; I'd very much like to have at least one city of ours between Moscow and Hattusas. Of course, snagging the wines will also be a priority as CB mentioned, but maybe not as important right now as in a regular game (since we'll be staying in a government that allows MPs and will want to station units in the cities in any case). As for CxxC, that's the build pattern I use in normal games, and while it's beneficial there, it's probably downright necessary in AW. It shouldn't be a rigid pattern, though, just a guideline. Settler pumps? Moscow's the only good one I saw; anyone see a better spot?

Got it. I agree that a dotmap of future expansion would be of great help.

Let me get two dotmaps up for reference and discussion as we focus on where to put our next few cities.
In both maps, brown lines indicate planned roads.

North Russia 3000 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob01/3000BC_NorthRussiaTrimmedDotted.jpg


To our north I see only one good city site that will help us and that is Blue Dot. It is on a flood plain and it allows us to connect wines to our cities, which will give us happier people. Wine will reduce our need to keep units garrisoned in cities and let us send those fighters to the front line. Blue Dot connects to our closest luxury, does so quickly, and is far away from the Hittites. It will be a large, fast growing city, with a hill and some plains for rather good production.

Once we road to Silly St. Peteys, we need only two more roads to connect to Blue Dot.


South Russia 3000 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/CBob01/3000BC_SouthRussiaTrimmedDotted.jpg

We have more city options in the south and also more obstacles, namely the Hittites. The rivers add additional movement problems also.

I cannot really decide which is better of the two pink dots. Both are on grassland, both have access to two BGs and the forest/game. One is on our side of the river, the other on the Hittite side. Both will take two turns of walking to reach. I slightly prefer being on the Hittite side of the river, just because a city on the far side is better place to end the turn than open ground.

Our second southern city would be the light blue dot, which will sit on top of spice, thus saving us the turns spent roading the jungle in order to connect to the spices. It also has access to two BGs.

Our third southern city would be the light green dot, which sits in the midst of three cows.

Other Stuff
I am anxious to get a luxury connected quickly, which means settling the north first and then the south. In the south we can wall off the Hittites from moving north with our wall of cities. We have many good tiles to grab before the Hittites do, which we can do if we keep them focused on war instead of expansion. We should have no problem in connecting to two luxuries (wine and spice) early in the game.

While we are at war with the Hittites, I am not overly concerned about taking them out early. We can easily blunt their first attack, which will probably be their strongest. Afterwards, we will occasional attacks by one or two units at a time, which we can handle. I think that if we build northwards first we will be stronger when we build south, because we will not need as many units in our cities to keep them productive.

I think that Mosiac Moscow will need to alternate between settlers and fighters. The city is shield rich but will not grow very fast. Right now it can produce a warrior each turn, as can each of the planned southern cities at size two (two mined BGs/cows each).

We have a very good starting location and by adding these four cities we will become an early power house. But it will take about thirty turns to get all these cities into place.

For no good reason, just a feeling really, I think we should wait until we get about 10 warriors before we go attacking the Hittite cities.

Pretty good overall, but here's a few recommendations:
1. Blue Dot should not be founded on the FP. Instead, how about the plains 1 NE of the FP? We'll still get the wine, and we'll be able to irrigate the FP for additional food. Also, I'd rather expand south first before the Hittites expand north.
2. I'd rather see Pink Dot in the location I pointed out earlier. CB's locations would be better than mine in a normal game, but for a fronline city in AW, I'd prefer a location that can be reinforced in a single turn. Light Blue Dot and Green Dot are exactly where they should be, and at least one of those should be built (along with Pink Dot) before Blue Dot.
3.It'll be a while before we have 10 warriors, especially if we build a settler or two first. By that time, we'll need archers at the very least before going on the offensive. I'd prefer a defensive war to start with while we get some more cities up and research military techs, then a shift to an offensive strategy when we've got a substantial force gathered and can replace losses relatively quickly. I doubt very much that we'd recover from a failed early offensive.
4. If it's important for Moscow to grow quickly, we should irrigate the flood plains as soon as we can. That'll get us 4 surplus food per turn, but we'd need a higher population to get a lot of shields.

4. If it's important for Moscow to grow quickly, we should irrigate the flood plains as soon as we can. That'll get us 4 surplus food per turn, but we'd need a higher population to get a lot of shields.
That is incorrect. Despotism tile penalty downgrades it to +3 food, not +4. Just telling you for future reference. :)

And another question, I had ideas for a dotmap, could I post them (later) ? :scan:

That is incorrect. Despotism tile penalty downgrades it to +3 food, not +4. Just telling you for future reference. :)
Yes, which is why we'd need to irrigate both flood plains in Moscow's radius to get 4 fpt. :p
And another question, I had ideas for a dotmap, could I post them (later) ?
It's OK with me if nobody else objects. In fact, I'd like to see those ideas.

Well, here's my 0.02 :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/59067/North_Russia_-_3000BC.JPG
Even though we are missing out on the hill wine, settling on the hill gives us several advantages: more defense, closer to home and not crossing a river, and we get an extra flood plain tile so we arent lacking food since we are in a desert area. The luxury isnt really necessary, especially at this point, because you have small towns and it is only Monarch-level. You are always going to have 2 defenders at town (one to guard homebase and one for backup) so the luxury isnt necessary.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/59067/South_Russia_-_3000BC.JPG
Its much different than CB's dotmap. To begin with, I added a yellow dot:

On a hill, which means it provides extra defense
On a hill also means it doesent waste a grassland tile
It is adjacent to freshwater
An extra town never hurts, especially in this nice spot

Second town, Pink Dot:

Next to a river
Near BG's (Riverside BG's)
Has a game for food, which it can share with yellow dot too.

Third/Fourth*, Light Green dot:

Settles on luxury, so direct connection. :cooool:
Bad tiles, but its not a bad spot.
If my eyes arent wrong, I think its coastal.

Third/Fourth*, Light Yellow dot:

Cow on a river. :food:
Nearby BG's.
Earns an extra tile N, NW, which is a BG.
On a river.


*Third/Fourth means that I was undecided which would come first, so either or.

Ansart the King is correct. CBob, if you settled on the FP, you'd not be making a 'fast growing city' because the max surplus is 2 fpt and everything else around it is 0 or 1 fpt.

Not so sure about his plan down south though. Yellow and pink are fine. But with more exploration, the plans will likely change. It would also probably be more painful but much better if you settled on the hills SW of pink because that would make your attacks on the Hittites easier (but rather hard to defend against earlier on). Then again, you'd want to do that, or else they will be able to use the hills against you.

Not so sure about his plan down south though. Yellow and pink are fine. But with more exploration, the plans will likely change. It would also probably be more painful but much better if you settled on the hills SW of pink because that would make your attacks on the Hittites easier (but rather hard to defend against earlier on). Then again, you'd want to do that, or else they will be able to use the hills against you.
I thought of that when I finished the South Russia dotmap. I noticed that lonely hill that was just CxxC and realized it would work great. Maybe switch the light green dot from spices to that hill. It does make a great killing zone for the Hitties, like you mentioned. :)

Ansar's plan, but with Light Green Dot moved to the hills SW of Pink Dot as he and Tribute suggested, looks good to me. I wanted Pink Dot closer to Moscow, but maybe the game and the extra BG make up for the additional reinforcement time. Also, Pink Dot won't be on the front line once LGD is built. What does everyone else think?

I have no problem with the Revised Ansar Plan (Yellow-Pink-Lonely Hill-Spices). It is bettter than mine. Yellow is a good blocking city.

My more recent games have been at Emperor, where luxuries are almost a fetish. Settling on the flood plain up north was just be able to put the wines within easy reach.

I haven't had time to examine Mosiac Moscow's build sequence, will try to do so soon.

So...dotmap revised checks out looking like this:

South Russia Dotmap 3000BC
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/59067/South_Russia_3000BC_Redone.JPG

I have no problem with the Revised Ansar Plan. I was concerned about not being able to reinforce with foot troops in one turn, but that's not an insurmountable problem, I don't think.

I don't expect any questions of city placement to arise during my turnset, which, incidentally, I hope to play either tonight or tomorrow night. I wanted to play it yesterday, but the weekend got away from me. I haven't had a chance to look at build orders for our empire yet, but if anyone has looked and has suggestions, I'm all ears!

Not perfect from Moscow to yellow and pink, but at least when troops arrive, they are allowed to fortify. That's good.

Some things to consider (all guidelines, all open to discussion)

Build Orders:

Mosiac Moscow granary -> warrior -> warrior -> settler/worker
Silly St. Peteys warrior -> warrior -> warrior -> warrior (every five turns)


Worker Orders:

Mine the grassland (current tile) 6 WTs, 3 game turns.
One worker roads the mine (3 turns).
Other worker moves onto flood plain (1 turn).
Irrigate the flood plain (4 turns), then road (3 more turns).
First worker moves onto the oasis and roads it (4 turns total).
Same worker moves adjacent to SSP and roads it (4 turns total).
Second worker moves to make a road/mines towards Yellow and Pink Dot.
First worker will irrigate towards SSP.

Fourteen turns to connect to SStP, which means only two turns of travel between MM and SStP instead of four. Twenty or more before the new cities are connected.

Other Stuff:

Yellow Dot makes warriors or better.
Pink Dot builds a barracks and then builds military.

It may be best to finish the turnset with MM building a warrior each turn, as it grows enough to make a settler. Can't tell from work at lunchtime.

Sounds good to me, but I think SSP should build a worker before pumping out warriors. That worker should then build a road Mosaic Moscow. Gotta leave for work now, so no time to analyze other worker moves.

Sounds good to me, but I think SSP should build a worker before pumping out warriors. That worker should then build a road Mosaic Moscow. Gotta leave for work now, so no time to analyze other worker moves.
SSP is size 2, grows in 15. If we make a worker, it will be done in 5 turns. If MM makes warriors for a while, this may be OK. This worker would road to MM, freeing up the other two to road/mine to Yellow/Pink and beyond.

Man, I wish I had thought of this.

SSP is size 2, grows in 15. If we make a worker, it will be done in 5 turns. If MM makes warriors for a while, this may be OK. This worker would road to MM, freeing up the other two to road/mine to Yellow/Pink and beyond.

Man, I wish I had thought of this.
Yup. We should still finish mining and roading the tile the workers are on now, of course (especially since it'll keep them out of the path of the advancing Hittite warriors). And at some point in this game, you're bound to think of something I wish I'd thought of. ;)

Sorry I've been silent lately (RL stuff). The discussion has been great:goodjob: . Just to make sure of some things:
We are planning on using Ansar's Revised Dot map with cites in the order of Yellow, pink, green?

SSP builds on a worker (5 turns) who will road to Moscow then start on warriors

MMoscow will finish its granary then build warriors until it can support a settler (I'm assuming we are planing it to be size 4 when it pumps out the settler)

So this is what I gather from the worker discussion:

The workers finish the mine (3 turns)
One starts road (3 turns), one moves to FP
SPP worker is built and moves S and raods (4 turns total)
Worker starts irrigating FP (4 turns), then roads (3 turns)
After the worker on the mine finishes he crosses the river and then heads to road the yellow spot? (working the other BG is an option, but with Moscow pumping out settlers when it can, this square won't get worked for quite a while)
SPP worker keeps roading to the oasis

After that is it best to have the worker that was on the FP help the SSP worker work the other FP or follow the mine worker down to road and prepare the land for the new cities? My guess is that preparing our new city spots is the priority but that's purely shooting from the hip.

As for that southern warrior of ours, putting him on the mountain makes him pretty tough and it looks like the Hittite warriors are seperated. He could take one out and maybe even heal (or run away) before the other one gets there.

It looked like we had enough of a consensus for me to play my turnset, so I started. I got about 14-15 turns through it last night. However, I hit a snag or two that I thought warranted some group decisions, so I stopped.

First, RL demands on my time. I hope to be able to finish & post my turnset tonight (Tuesday), but RL might get in the way. On Wednesday, I have to make a 300+ mile (roundtrip) roadtrip for my job, so it's very unlikely that I'll get any playing done Wednesday. Not impossible, but very unlikely. So if I cannot finish & post tonight, it will probably be at least Thursday before I can finish and post. IIRC, my time to play and post runs sometime Wednesday. If I cannot finish and post tonight, I see three options: (1) grant me a small extension; (2) skip me; or (3) nominate someone to play out my turnset. Obviously, my first choice would be #1. But if y'all think that will slow the game down too much, we can go with either of the other choices. IIRC, Phaedo is after me in the line-up, so he would seem the logical choice if we decide to go with #3.

Second, what do we want after WC? I don't want to give away too much outside of the spoiler tags, but I stopped my turnset at the point where I got WC because I felt we needed more consensus on what the next research is. I have not yet invested any beakers in the next tech. I lean towards The Wheel and Horseback riding. What say you?

Now, for any of you who want to know, here are some highlights of my turnset so far:

We have 3 sources of iron nearby.
Yellow Dot sits on iron!
I lost Warrior 01.
I lost Scout 01.
I captured a Scout.
I killed 5 Hittite Warriors.
Warrior 04 is Elite.
We have the Warrior Code.
I met the Germans.
The road to yellow dot will be done by the end of my turns.
So will the settler destined for YellowDot.
The road between Mosaic Moscow and Silly St. Petey's is complete.

I goofed, I should have stated that we would be playing 10 turns each from here on out. My mistake, not yours.

So let's make your trip easier. Go ahead and post your turns so far, along with your thoughts and plans. This will give everyone a chance to see where we are at as we debate on what to learn next.

And don't worry about playing extra turns. I'm sure it will even out.

@Aabraxan: It looks like your turnset went pretty well. As for the extra turns, we can probably just each play 11 turns until it evens out. Also, if I understood CB's earlier posts correctly, we don't have a strict 24/72 rule in effect for this game.

As for research: Earlier, I suggested Masonry-Alpha-Math, and given what Aabra found out in his turnset, that remains my recommendation. We might want to sidetrack to The Wheel first, though, so that we can see horses. Why not HBR first? Two reasons: first, while we're on the defensive, speed isn't quite as important as when we're advancing. Second, I want to get Masonry soon for walls and a Great Library prebuild. That wonder will be very helpful since we can only trade techs with each AI once. It'll let us zero out science and build up cash for a while, and it might be better to learn monarchy from the GLib rather than researching it ourselves.

@ Norton II,
Thanks. No, we don't have a strict 24/72 rule, but CB mentioned 48/96 at one point, iirc. I just don't want to be the guy holding up the game for everyone. The other alternative to putting the game back on track (numerically) is that I could play a shorter turnset next time around. In any event, I'll post the turnlog and save tonight.

Research:
As much as I like the Ansar Plan, I'd really like to know where horses are for city placement considerations. I'm much more interested in The Wheel at this point than HBR. I agree with you on HBR. We need to know where the horses are. We don't need to ride them yet. A prebuild for the Great Library sounds like a good plan. I'd like to found a few more cities before we begin that prebuild, but I think the Great Library would be of tremendous benefit. I recall that I mentioned Sun Tzu's, the SoZ and maybe some other wonders earlier. After playing that turnset, though, I have to change my tune. I think the GLib may well be the wonder to have, at least until it's obsolete.

but I think the Great Library would be of tremendous benefit. I recall that I mentioned Sun Tzu's, the SoZ and maybe some other wonders earlier. After playing that turnset, though, I have to change my tune. I think the GLib may well be the wonder to have, at least until it's obsolete.

IMHO, I would suggest that the Great Wall is probably the Wonder for AW; holding-on to captured cities will be key to your success, and an instant 50% defensive bonus would be invaluable.

Bucephalus,
Welcome back. Child is better, I hope?

Good point on the Great Wall. Truthfully, I've never built it or the GLib, so maybe I should leave that debate to those who've used them.

Bucephalus,
Welcome back. Child is better, I hope?

She is fine now, thank you.

Good point on the Great Wall. Truthfully, I've never built it or the GLib, so maybe I should leave that debate to those who've used them.

Neither would I build either in a 'normal' game, but I'm trying to view this through an AW perspective. What you may be doing is forgetting that unremitting war will give the AI the same WW problems that will beset yourselves; they will be restricted to the same Governments that you will, so no Republic economies. Also, at Monarch level, AI research is pretty feeble, so the GL may have limited use, and anyway expires very early.

Of course, you may get lucky and have a neighbour build one or the other, then you could just capture it.

IMHO, I would suggest that the Great Wall is probably the Wonder for AW; holding-on to captured cities will be key to your success, and an instant 50% defensive bonus would be invaluable.
Great out of the box thinking; I'm still trying to deal with not being able to trade techs at the drop of a hat!

Great Wall lasts until Metallurgy, fairly late in the Middle Ages. It gives an instant defense bonus to all our cities, which is nice.

With The Wheel we see horse resources. Good to know, but if we don't plan to go to HBR right away and use those resources, I think it can wait a few turns.

I am inclined to get Masonry first for the Great Wall, expand our empire (or at least un-expand some other empire) and come back to The Wheel when our borders are a bit larger.

Get your head out of the other civs.

THIS IS CIV3! GW IS REACHED AT CONSTRUCTION!

A further thought:

Maybe contact with the other continent(s) is even more important than usual, albeit for different reasons. On your own continent, research will be slow due to the unremitting war. In a wartime economy, AI shields will build units, not libraries or marketplaces, so no cash multipliers; while in despotism, the AI will pop rush for units, so populations don't grow, and fewer tiles are worked for cash; and, as I mentioned in a previous post, there will be no Republic economies because of WW, so cash will be short, and research will be slow after the first flurry of trading.

None of this will be true for the AI on the other continent(s). Therefore, the sooner you meet them, the better. Once you declare war, they will begin the long path to an enforced government change out of Republic. I say the long path because without any actual fighting WW will come slowly. Inevitably but, slowly.
And until that time, they will out-research your continent, for sure. They will probably win the Wonder Races too. When the time comes for you to invade the other continent(s), I suspect that you will already be at a technological (and therefore military) disadvantage. If you leave contact too long, that disadvantage could be very hard to overcome.

Get your head out of the other civs.

THIS IS CIV3! GW IS REACHED AT CONSTRUCTION!
As I've said before (but maybe not here) the Ancient Age and I just don't seem to mesh.
:crazyeye:

@Aabraxan - looks like you had a good turnset. Looking forward to the full report

- Knowing where horses are may influence our city planning. I think I agree with the point that The Wheel would be good to research next. After that - Alpha and Math?

- To the point where we should at least meet the civs on the other continent, I agree with this, but I don't think we need to rush right over to build a city on the sea, there are still several sites on the dotmap to go for first. Then as I recall there was a few good sites to the east to settle on the water.

- I'm a little nervous with tying up a city with a wonder prebuild right now. First time through an AW game would contribute my anxiety, but IMO we should make sure we are secure military-wise before shooting for that. My hope is we get lucky and a neighbor builds what we want, then we take it.

- Are we going to start building swords exclusively after iron is hooked up?

I took a closer look at my most recent save and it was an odd, mid-turn save in the turn immediately after getting WC. That's no good as a hand-off and I think that the next player should get the interturn, so here's a write-up, screenshot and save, up to the point immediately before we actually get WC.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Preflight Assessment:
We know one civ, the Hittites. Naturally, we're at war.
I see one Hittite warrior on the sugar east of Moscow
Iron Working in 9 with one beaker overrun
Mosaic Moscow (2), grows in 10, granary in 6
Silly St. Petey's (2), grows in 15, warrior in 5
Switch SSP to Worker, will complete in 5

IBT: Two Hittites (one regular, one conscript) move north on the mountains west of the chain of lakes west of Mosaic Moscow.
An American scout appears on the mountain 2 SE of the grapes to the north. Americans Have Warrior Code, Alphabet, Ceremonial Burial and Masonry.

Turn 21: 2950
Dial up the American Scout to see if they'll trade. They won't trade me anything. Good-bye for now with note to self to declare war by the end of the turn.
Start both workers mining the grassland.
Warrior 01 steps NW onto a mountain to deal with the two Hittites just mentioned. From there, he spies another Hittite Warrior due south of the game.
Scout 01 goes 2 S to scout the Hittite lands.
Warrior 04 steps 1 SE -- going to fortify him on the hill by sugar.
Dial up Abe one more time, just to see. He won't trade anything, so I threaten him. (Hey, what's the harm? I'm about to declare on him anyway, right?) No dice, so I declare.

IBT: Hittite warriors from both the mountain and south of the game retreat towards home. Turns out that was two warriors south of the game.

Turn 22: 2900
Warrior 04 takes a spot on the hill.
Warrior 01 fortifies.
Scout 01 moves 1 SW. Unfortunately, I forgot about the movement penalty for forest. He finds the coast.
IW in 7
SSP, worker in 3
MM, granary in 4

IBT: zzz

Turn 23: 2850
Warrior 04 moves 1 S onto another hill. I want to see if I can bait that lone Hittite into attacking.
Scout 01 1N, spies 2 Hittites (regular & conscript) on a mountain. Flees 1 NW.
Assess SSP -- citizens already working most productive tiles.
Assess MM -- same.

IBT: Sugarboy attacks and dies. Warrior 04 promoted to Veteran!
American scout passes in and out of the fog N of SSP.
Workers finish mines.
Hittites headed north through the mountains again.

Turn 24: 2800
Begin roading with one worker.
Move other worker to flood plain.
Warrior 04 moves 1 N. He's going Scout-hunting.
Check SSP -- Worker in 1 w/ no overrun
Check MM --- granary in 2, w/ 2 overrun if I do nothing.
Scout 01 moves 1 N (to avoid jungle), and 1 NW. Three bananas in this area.

IBT: Two groups of Hittites emerge from the fog: (1) two (regular & conscript) headed North along the mountains to the west (let's give these a name, how about the Freshwater Mountains?); and (2) another pair (2 regulars) due south of Warrior 01 (1S of the game). The pair in the mountains is 7 turns out and must pass through warrior 01; the pair to the south is 6 turns out, but could (theoretically) bypass W01. W01 can be home in 3.

Turn 25: 2750
SSP has finished its worker. It's now size 1, grows in 5, warrior in 5.
I decide to use the new worker close to home. He moves 1 S, where he'll start the road.
War04 1 N
Worker on the FP begins irrigation.
Scout 01 goes 1 N onto the hill. From there, he sees American borders.
Moscow is about to overrun by 2 shield on the granary. I look into the possibility of making a beakerhead or tax collector, but a specialist at this point results in zero growth. We're only 5t from growing, and I decide to live with the shield overrun.

IBT: The two Freshwater Hittites disappear into the fog to the North; the two Gamey Hittites move north towards Warrior 01.
Mosaic Moscow completes the granary, set to warrior. Growth in 4 turns, Warrior in 2.

Turn 26: 2710 BC
Worker S of SSP begins road.
Warrior 04 decides not to scout-hunt any more, heads W towards Mosaic Moscow.
Scout 01 N x2
Treasury at 37, -1 gpt
IW in 3 -- at 90%, which is breaking even, we could get it in 4.
I decide to keep going deficit until we get IW.

IBT: Gamey Hittites move towards Mosaic Moscow. Warrior 01 could attack this turn.
American Scout comes into view on the hill 2 E of SSP.

Turn 27: 2670:
Worker 01 onto oasis.
Scout 01 moves 1 N, 1 NW, along the American border.
Warrior 04 moves onto the oasis.
Wake Warrior 01. Let's kill a Hittite.
Oops. Warrior 01 dies.

IBT: Two Freshwater Hittites come across the pass that Warrior 01 was guarding before his untimely demise. They meet up with the Gamey Hittites. Great, now we've got 4 Hittites headed our way . . . Sorry, guys.
Mosaic Moscow is garrisoned by 2, with another being build in 2 and Warrior 04 (veteran) arriving before the Hittites can.
SSP also has a warrior being built in 2.
Research will overrun by 1, so I move the slider to 90% to make it break even.

Turn 28: 2630
Rename the newly-christened warrior at MM "Warrior 05" and fortify him.
Worker 01 begins roading the oasis.
Warrior 04 goes 1 S -- he's now one turn from MM on the mined/roaded tile.
Scout 01 goes 2 NW onto a hill.
Current status:
3 Workers
3 Warriors
1 Scout
35 gold

IBT: Iron Working Discovered. I direct our sages to begin their work on the Warrior Code. I move the slider to maximum research. We'll have it in 11 turns at breaking even (90%). We could get it in 10 if we went 100% (-1 gpt), but I opt not to do that right now. All 4 Hittites begin migrating towards MM. They've split into two stacks. An American settler is spotted headed east inside American borders. He appears to be alone . . .
There's iron at YellowDot Hill! There's also Iron 2 N, 1 E from SSP. And a third source just across the Freshwater Mountains.

Turn 29: 2590
Warrior 04 moves into Mosaic Moscow.
Flood Plain irrigated, roading begins.
Worker south of SSP renamed Worker 03. He's finished his road. Worker on the oasis should finish his in 2, and Worker on FP is 3 turns out from his road.
Worker 03 moves south to begin irrigation back towards SSP.
Scout 01 NW x2, sees some gems, but they're a long way from home.

Status:
SSP (1) growth=1, warrior=1
MM (2) growth=1, warrior=1
3 workers
4 warriors
1 scout
35 gold +0 gpt
Hittite borders are too long for just one city. They must have at least two.
American borders look like they may have just one.

IBT:
MM: warrior --> warrior
SSP: warrior -->
4 Hittites move into a stack on one of our mined & roaded tiles.
A German archer appears on the hill NE of SSP.
(One nervous Aabraxan begins to debate the sanity of AW games . . . )

Turn 30:
Call Otto. He's got Masonry, Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial. We've got no techs to trade. He won't sell us Masonry or Ceremonial Burial. Once again, I figure, "What the heck?" and I try to threaten for WC. No luck. How 'bout CB? No? Masonry? No. . . Tired of being sneered at, I declare war.
Newly-named Warrior 06 moves 1 NE onto the hill.
I currently have 4 Warriors in MM. I fortify all and await the Hittite attack.
Scout01 goes 1 NW, the 1 NE, up onto the gem mountain.
Unit support has begun to eat into our treasury. I can either get WC in 8 at (-2 gpt), get it in 10 at (-1 gpt), or move it back to 11 turns at breaking even. I want it in 8.

IBT: Hittites attack. They lose 2, we lose one and Warrior 04 is now Elite! Then they turn and attack some invisible foe on the hill 1 W, 1 NW from Mosaic Moscow. One of them is promoted to Veteran.
American scout jumps on the hill right next to the worker on the FP, making me very nervous.
Road from MM to SSP finished.

Turn 31: 2450
Warrior 06 moves towards our labor force for protection
Scout 01 moves 2 N. This is a big continent, guys.
Worker 02 will finish his road in 1; Worker 03 will finish irrigation in 3.
Worker 01 can't go start roading towards yellow dot because of the Hittites in our territory. So he joins Worker 02 to help finish irrigation.
Wake all warriors in MM for counterattack.
Warrior 05 (regular) kills a Hittite.
Warrior 02 (regular) dies, but redlines a hittite.
Warrior 04 (elite) kills the last hittite.
Mosaic Moscow is down to one defender inside (w/ Warrior 04 outside), but will produce another in 1 turn.
SSP is garrisoned by 2, produces another in 4.

IBT:
MM warrior --> warrior
American Scout moves inside our boundaries. Brave little snot, isn't he?

Turn 32: 2470
Warrior 06 moves in and captures the Scout.
Renamed to Scout 02, he heads west to find the invisible foe that attacked the Hittites. He goes 2 W up onto a hill and finds . . . nobody.
Scout 01 moves 1 N, and spots a Hittite scout. He then moves 1 NW to bust some fog. Unfortunately, the poor soul crosses a river and stops . . . right next to an American warrior. Good thing I captured that scout.
Warrior 05 (regular, redlined) fortifies.
New warrior duly named Warrior 06. He moves down to the end of our road, and 1 S, just to see what he can see. No enemies in sight.
Warrior 04 (elite, green), moves back into MM.
Worker 01 begins irrigation. That should finish irrigation in that square in 1 turn.
I consider moving Worker 03 into the square. If I did that, I could road it in one turn. However, if we're attacked there in the next turn, our labor force is totally decimated. so I choose something else. I move him down towards YellowDot to begin roading.

MM 3, grows in 2
SSP 2, grows in 18
WC in 5
Treasury 33, -1 gpt
Workers 3
Warriors 5
Scouts: 2 (technically), but about to be 1

IBT: Scout 01 lost to German warrior

Turn 33: 2430
Scout 02 begins a trek south.
Warrior 04 moves towards YellowDot Hill. From there, he can defend against intruders from the Hittite empire, as well as protect our roading workers.
Worker 01 begins roading irrigated tile.
Worker somethingorother moves into position to begin roading.
MM is one turn from growth, one turn from a warrior. I could change to a settler at this point and get it in 5, but I really think we need that sixth warrior. So I'm going to finish him and then begin a settler for YellowDot.

IBT:
MM: warrior --> settler (5)(growth in 4)

Turn 34: 2390
Warrior 06 moves north to protect our workers.
Worker begins last road necessary for YellowDot Trail.
Warrior 04 takes station on YellowDot Hill.
Warrior Whatshisname moves SE of the game to explore.
Worker begins irrigating desert towards SSP.
Mosaic Moscow now has an unhappy laborer. Making a specialist would result in zero growth, so I kick the lux slider up to 10%. Treasury is at 33 and -1 gpt, but we'll have WC in 3.

IBT:
SSP: warrior --> warrior


Turn 35: 2350
Warrior 04 fortifies
Warrior Whatshisname moves towards the mountain some more.

IBT:
3 Regular Americans move onto the Mountain 2 SE of the grapes. Time to start bringing troops home again.

Turn 36: 2310
Worker moves NW towards SSP & begins helping with irrigation. Finished in 1.
Worker 6 comes down off the mountain.
Warrior 06 begins heading home to MM.
The other Warrior 06 (the one guarding some workers in our borders) moves into Moscow. Sorry about the naming snafu.

Warrior Code in 1. As I don't know what we'll research next, I'll end here until I get feedback.
7 Warriors
3 Workers
1 Scout
Iron Located
30 gold (-2 gpt)

Here endeth Aabraxan's Chronicle of Conquering Cossacks, Part the Second

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4880/cbob2310bczd4.th.jpg (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cbob2310bczd4.jpg)

With the discovery of Iron Working, and finding iron on yellow dot, are you going to settle yellow dot before the dot west of Silly. St Peteys? :scan:

Also, CommandoBob, just noticed that you and Aabraxan are both very organized in your logs and very detailed. Very nice, IMHO. :thumbsup:

OK, here are my thoughts thus far.

First, as you can see, we've got three sources of iron nearby: (1) one under the warrior standing on Yellow Dot Hill; (2) one almost due NW of that same warrior 5 tiles or so; and (3) one NE of the American warriors about 3 klicks.

If there were any questions as to settling order, I think the Yellow Dot Hill with Iron should be settled next. By my calculations Yellow Dot can be settled in 6 turns.The worker will finish the road in 2. Moscow grows in 3 and produces a settler in 3. One move to the edge of Moscow's cultural borders, one move onto Yellow Dot Hill, and then settled. (3(build) +1(move) +1(move) +1 (settle)). (Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong in this). At that point, we can immediately start building swords. We can start building archers before that.

Attacks from the Hittites consistently came across Yellow Dot Hill. That city will need to be a heavily fortified stronghold. The other place the Hittites sent units was up past the game to the south. I think the kill zone discussed earlier is going to be a thing of beauty (fingers crossed)! Oddly, the Hittites kept splitting up their stacks and sending one group over Yellow Dot Hill and the other past the game. I had a warrior fortified by Yellow Dot Hill for a while, and it totally befuddled the Hittites. They sent warriors up past YDH to the west, but would not come across. Let's make sure to use this tendency to split stacks against the Hittites.

Americans appear to be coming across the northern end of the Freshwater Mountains. I have not actually engaged them, so I don't have much more info.

Same with the Germans. One German archer stationed himself on a hill NE of SSP, always within sight, but never attacked. He emerged from the fog to the NE, so he must have come all the way around the continent to the north of SSP.

Like CivActuary, I'm nervous about starting our prebuild (of whatever we decide to build) too early. Wonders (& prebuilds) take a city out of production for a very long time. I'm reluctant to start a prebuild before we have at least 5 or 6 cities. Fortunately, now that Moscow has a granary, that won't be that long.

As I've said, I think The Wheel is next, but only to help us find the horses. That said, none of the suggestions out there are going to hurt my feelings any. They all have good points. Walls are good, curraghs are good -- just a question of which one we want next.

With the discovery of Iron Working, and finding iron on yellow dot, are you going to settle yellow dot before the dot west of Silly. St Peteys? :scan:

Maybe I was mistaken, but I thought we had decided to settle Yellow Dot first anyway. Regardless, I certainly think it needs to be first. Two reasons: (1) iron; and (2) the Hittites like to send troops over that pass.

Also, CommandoBob, just noticed that you and Aabraxan are both very organized in your logs and very detailed. Very nice, IMHO. :thumbsup:

Thank you.

Maybe I was mistaken, but I thought we had decided to settle Yellow Dot first anyway. Regardless, I certainly think it needs to be first. Two reasons: (1) iron; and (2) the Hittites like to send troops over that pass.

My mistake...back into my corner now... :blush: :scan:

Good turns, Aabraxan. Nothing like three angry civs to make the early game exciting, right?

Per CAII: Hittites UU is the Three-Man Chariot, which we might see rather soon; didn't investigate further. Hittite aggression is high; German aggression is maximum, American aggression is average.

The Three Man Chariot cannot move in mountians that have no roads, so they may not appear for a while.

After MM builds the settler, we need some spears for defense. Warriors will soon be unavailable to us and swords are too expensive to be our only defense. I'm thinking that SSP can make a spear for itself. MM can make two spears, one going to Yellow Dot City (or whatever we call it) the other stays at home and escorts the next settler. Then YDC and SSP focus on swords/spears and MM makes settler/spear combos.

I am not all that fond of spears. But since swords and spears both defend with '2', we need some cheap defenders and spears are it.

And nice, looks like Bucephalus's plan on using that hill was a very lucky guess (look at the iron)!

After MM builds the settler, we need some spears for defense. Warriors will soon be unavailable to us and swords are too expensive to be our only defense. I'm thinking that SSP can make a spear for itself. MM can make two spears, one going to Yellow Dot City (or whatever we call it) the other stays at home and escorts the next settler. Then YDC and SSP focus on swords/spears and MM makes settler/spear combos.

I am not all that fond of spears. But since swords and spears both defend with '2', we need some cheap defenders and spears are it.
Agreed. I'm not usually a big fan of spearmen either, but they're quite useful for AW. As for research, I agree that The Wheel should be our next tech, followed by Masonry-Alpha-Math. It'd be good to be able to build walls in all our towns soon.
When I mentioned the GL earlier, I didn't mean that we should start a wonder prebuild right away; we should definitely build several cities and a fair number of units first. As for GL vs. GW, I'd still say GL. AI research may be sluggish at this level, but ours will be, too. For example, we've met 3 civs and were unable to make a single trade before declaring war. Additionally, unit support is going to be a problem for quite a while, especially once we switch to Monarchy and before we have a fair number of cities at size 7 or above. That'll limit our research capability. Also, don't forget that we are unlikely to have a GA until we get Cossacks, so if the GL can get us closer to Military Tradition faster than self-research can, we should definitely build it.

Well played Aabra:D
This AW thing is freaky but it does get the blood pumping.

I agree about the spears and wheel too.

With the Yanks moving in up there, might we want to settle that hill SE if the grapes before our pink choice? If horses are to appear, there is a good chance they will do it on plains and the vast majority of our plains are north of SSP. That town wouldn't be a big grower, but it could have possibly 2 FP to work (sometimes depending on our MMing). It would also cut Moscow off from our enemies.

Of course the pink dot would grow faster and have BGs to work. I'm just thinking that as we are at war with everyone, we can't really focus on one enemy at a time like we normally would.

Another thought is that hill between the two sugars. Once irrigated, those sugars and the FP should give us +5 food right? Isn't that a settler pump? I don't want to confuse things but I was looking at the screenie and it got me wondering. EDIT: I guess with the despotism penality it isn't. Got too excited there:(

It also seems we are going to have cash problems but there isn't really much we can do about it now. Are there any tricks (other than turning down the research bar to avoid wasted beakers) to build up our bank?

My other question is about turn sets. As I am up next, how may should I play?
I just want to make sure I know the plan before i take it:)

My other question is about turn sets.

From here on out, 10 turns per turn set. At some later point we may need to go to 5 turns per turn set, when the unit count is really high and the turns start to take a long time to play, but not now.

One thing I would like to stress at this point:

It never hurts to stop and ask for help.

More often than not, when I have a game issue (trade/don't trade; war now/war later) I tend to focus on just that issue. Sometimes stopping the game and walking away from it helps. When that doesn't, I'll post the turns I've played, attach/upload the save, and then discuss whatever it is that is being a problem. The issue will be discussed, I'll get direction/guidance and finish the turns.

Having a different set of eyes looking at a problem helps a lot.

There is no stigma in this forum when you say 'I need help' or 'I'm not sure what to do next'.

Great job Aabraxan!

I agree about spears as cheap defenders, which is why I mentioned something about maybe going swords? only in my last post. I have read a few players that dislike using defensive units, but I have no such biases and, as Norton points out, in AW defenders are useful. Especially against German archers or Hittite chariots ;)

After yellow dot, if it were me alone, I'd go grape hill next for the lux. Not sure if that is a good move though.

Phaedo's Hill (between the sugars) is also coastal, and would allow a curragh to get out. Something to think about I suppose.

I think we are all agreed that the Wheel should be next.

I find myself agreeing with Norton about the GL over the GW. Some questions I have been asking myself
-How many cities will we need walls in? Are they worth the cost of building the GW versus walls in those cities?
-How much will it cost us to self research Monarchy? Especially if we are having cash issues.
-Which are we more likely to be able to get?

The reason I asked about turns is that we are on turn 36 now. If we aren't going to fiddle with turns to get it even, I thik I'll take 9 turns to take it to turn 45. It's easier to keep track of turns that end in 5 or 0 ;)

Oh, and don't worry, I'll certainly ask if I need help:D . I guess asking advice on trades won't be required eh?:rolleyes:

I 'll try to get to it tomorrw

How many cities will we need walls in? Are they worth the cost of building the GW versus walls in those cities?

But isn't the advantage with the GW that it gives you walls where you want them, when you want them, ie. the front line cities? If you build walls, by the time you have suppressed the resistance, and then built them, the front line will have moved on. Instant walls give somewhere for injured units to heal in comparitive safety; it gives Med. Inf. the same defensive ability as a pike, so fewer defensive units will be needed. And it lasts a long time before obsolescence.

Thanks, everyone. I was pleased at how I played, but was afraid that I'd overlooked something. (You know, like when you think you knew everything on a test and get a D-). Glad to see I didn't embarrass myself on these turns! :D

Research: I'm going to put my vote on Wheel-Masonry-Alpha. Horses, walls, dinghys. It looks like Wheel is pretty much taking the day on what follows WC. I think we need walls after that. Almost every Hittite that I killed was from a defensive posture. We're not ready to go on the offensive. We have to survive long enough to get ready.

Ordinarily, I don't build any spears, or very few. This isn't an ordinary game. This is AW. Our cities will be under constant siege. Spears are cheaper defenders than swords. We're going to need them.

And as for the sugar, I like sugar. Doesn't it add food and gold? That said, I am not sure off the top of my head where we should settle and in what order. I'll take a look at it some other time. Not up to it right now.

Same with Wonders. The twin Greats both sound great and both would be very helpful. I'm just not fit to decide which I want right now.

I played a couple of games as the Hittites when I first started. I haven't looked at the numbers since then, but as a player, I thought their UU stinks.

And I've got to say . . . AW is very, very exciting. It's also way out of my comfort zone right now.

-How much will it cost us to self research Monarchy? Especially if we are having cash issues.

As of the 2310 BC save, for Monarchy, we are lacking: Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial, Mysticism, and Polytheism.
I'm not sure I really understand how tech costs work, but looking at CAII, from my last save at 2310 BC, here's what I get:

Estimated Tech Costs:
Ceremonial Burial: 45
Mysticism: 106
Polytheism: 320
Monarchy: 640
Total: 1111

(I've intentionally left WC out of this calculation because we'll have it in the IBT after the save. In the box below the tech list, CAII says that it will cost 1122 total to research Monarchy, but that includes 11 beakers left on WC and I'm not entirely certain that the 11 beaker figure is accurate. That would be two turns of research, and we only had one turn left on the 2310 save.)

Estimated Tech Costs:
Ceremonial Burial: 45
Mysticism: 106
Polytheism: 320
Monarchy: 640
Total: 1111

Tech costs decrease as more people know about that tech. Ceremonial Burial is so cheap because it is widely known. Poly and Monarchy look like they are still unknowns. In time they will be cheaper.

Another factor is how many beakers per turn we are generating towards science. This is also on the Technology tab of CAII. If it is much more than 11, maybe we should consider learning Mysticism next and try to trade for CBurial with our next new contact. Or we lower our science to where we still get CBurial in 4 turns, game minimum, and add some gold to our treasury.

I am not sure how tech costs are initially determined by the game. Map size has something to do with it and there is also a value that can be adjusted before the game is created that affects tech costs. I've read about it but never used it.

I am not sure how tech costs are initially determined by the game. Map size has something to do with it and there is also a value that can be adjusted before the game is created that affects tech costs. I've read about it but never used it.
See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29485. I think all that's changed is added difficulties with their cost factors.

Halfway through my set a dark blue warrior appeared and this happened
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/img_063.jpg
We want it, and we can use the cash so I figure I'll go for it. This is the best deal I could get. They wouldn't go for the two techs for all our cash so...

The rest of the turnset will happen after work and I'll be able to post tonight.:)

Just a quick rule of thumb I learned from TGOM* when trading

Do we need it?
Can we afford it?
Can it be traded profitably?

If one of the qualities is present, reject it.
If two are present, depends on how much you are trading for it/need it.
If all three are present, then do the deal.

*TGOM - all rights reserved

IIRC, thats how it goes...

I have that pasted on my pc:). We need it (to get to walls) and we can afford it (we actually make a profit) so that's why I thought I'd take it ;)

[delurk] Well, you're playing the game, so just giving some tips.
I have that pasted on my pc. :) We need it (to get to walls) and we can afford it (we actually make a profit) so that's why I thought I'd take it ;)
Cool. :cooool: Didnt know anyone had tips with them at all times.

Can you get Ceremonial Burial?

TGOM's rules sum it up nicely.
We need it.
We can afford it.
We will not be able to trade it profitably.

Nonetheless, we need walls. And I'd say sooner rather than later. Whether or not the Hittites, Americans and Germans have IW also plays a role in the equation, because once Hammi has it, he's probably going to trade it to them. Given that IW is on the table, I think I'd rather trade it for Masonry than Ceremonial Burial.

Edit: Obviously, I'd rather have both, but it looks like you've tried that.

Looks like a good trade to me. As mentioned before, it fulfills the first two rules for tech trades, and the third isn't as much of a factor in AW since trading opportunities will be limited anyway. In fact, I suspect we won't be doing any more trading for quite a while; we've already met four other civs, so it seems likely to me (though far from certain) that the other three are on the other continent. And yes, we definitely need walls more than temples. I don't think cultural pressure will be a problem for a little while, especially since our nearest neighbors are neither religious nor scientific.

The Great Russian Conquest
Goals:
Get the a city on the Hill with Iron.
Start researching the Wheel when the time comes.
Build a quick spear to defend yellow, buils as many warriors as possible
before the Iron is hooked up then switch to spears

And we're off...

2310 BC Turn 36
Have a little looksee around the empire. Notice our Lux slider is at 10%.
No need for that so I turn it down to 0% and we are losing 1 gpt.
Moscow looks to be in good shape with growth and the settler timed out at 3
turns.
SSP can't grow past 3 (with an irrigated desert) until she expans. Not much to
MM here.

IBT The Yanks move East threatening SSP. I don't care what CAII says,
the Americans always are agressive when at war. The workers finish irrigating the desert.

2270 BC Turn 37
We learn IW and switch to Wheel. We are losing 1 gpt and that will probably go up to 2 for a turn until the new city is built.We have 29 gold so I decide not to change it. We can afford it (for now).
Move Worker01 to the BG east of Moscow and Work03 to Moscow.
Warrior who was there for protection goes back to SSP for defence against
the Yanks. SSP built a warrior so we now have three there to defend.
Send Worker02 to the BG west of Moscow. Once worked, that'll get us an extra gold and then Yellow can use the BG that is already developed.
Send War06 south. Getting on that Mt and being able to see what the blue meanies are doing would be nice (Fortified makes him better than a spear:D )
Scout goes south. Don't really know what to do with him but if he could sneak
past the Hittites, maybe he could find a hut (fingers crossed)
Abe seems to have built a city west of us. We could steal the wine from him with a quick city but it probably won't happen.

IBT Americans Attack! :mad: We lose a warrior and the American is redlined.
A second warrior attacks and dies giving us a vetran:D . Conscript stays put.
A Dark blue warrior moves onto the Mt I was hoping to get to.

2230 BC Turn 37
Seems the warrior is a Babylonian. They'll trade us IW for Masonary and 10G.
We need it and we'll get a little cash so I take it.
Send Worker03 to the BG with 02 to help develop it.
Our scout keeps moving south nd Warrior06 starts heading back to Moscow

IBT Americans attack SSP again and kills our vetran warrior:cry: . Theirs is
redlined

2190 BC Turn 38
Moscow builds a settler and starts on a warrior (might as well get another
one as it will be built the same turn we build on yellow).
Forgot to declare against the Babylonians so do it first thing.
Our settler moves towards the yellow dot.
Worker starts roading. The scout keeps moving south and is on the cow south
of the jungle.
Warrior06 keeps on his trek to Moscow. One of our warriors in Moscow heads to SSP to reinforce it.
Take a chance and attack the redlined American with our warrior in SSP:eek: . Win!:D

IBT The other US warrior attacks our newly victorious warrior and dies. Ours
becomes vetran. The German archer moves towards undefended SSP

2150 BC Turn 39
SSP build a warrior and starts on a spear (10 turns)
New Warrior fortifies in SSP our warrior from Moscow gets there and our 2/4 vet moves back. 3 units again in SSP. I know that was a real chance but it worked.
Workers 02 and 03 start mine
Scout moves South busting fog and the settler reaches yellow

IBT Barb moves next to our scout. Kraut attacks and kills a warrior in SSP
without taking any losses:eek:

2150 BC Turn 40
Moscow builds a warrior and he fortifies. Start sending another warrior to SSP
I'm really worried about that German archer. He could take SSP out. There's
a full strength warrior and a 2/4 vet there. A 1 attack vs 1 def is better than
2 attack vs 1 def. Maybe I should attack him. Decide to think about it until
the end of turn
Found Iron Hill and get the citizen working the mined BG
Warrior06 reaches Moscow and fortifies. Our vet warrior in SSP fortifies.
Scout moves south to the hill to get away from the barb. End up next to a
barb camp but that should be OK as there is only 1 Barb there and he shouldn't attack and abandon the camp. See the Bab's border.
Worker01 starts mining.
Well, it's decesion time. What to do about that archer...Decide to wait 1 turn
until our other warrior gets there. If I lose, the archer could take SSP on
the IBT.

IBT Kraut attacks again and kills another warrior losing 1 HP

2070 BC Turn 41
Scout moves South away from the Barb pursuing him
Warrior from Moscow gets to SSP. Our vet is healed up so now is the time to
get rid of that annoying archer.
It was a nail biter, but our vet wins and is redlined

IBT Barb keeps chasing our scout

2030 BC Turn 42
Scout moves south again and see Nineveh
Workers02 and 03 move to road to our pink dot and to connect the BG worker01 is on.
Our vet moves back to SSP and the other warrior fortifies.

IBT Barb keeps chasing out scout (which is good really as we are leading him
to Nineveh. Another Barb moves to the gold west of Iron Hill.

1990 BC Turn 43
Scout moves W then S to get away from the barb
Wourkers start roads adn our vet fortifies.

IBT Hittite archer moves onto the game

1950 BC Turn 43
Moscow builds spear and starts another one (now size 4). The spear moves
towards IronHill.
The spear will reach IH next turn. Can't send another warrior to IH for support without causing disorder.
Scout finds Ashur and skirts the Bab border

IBT Barb moves to the hill north of Iron Hill

1910 BC Turn 44
Spear fortifies in Iron Hill
Scout moves SW and finds the sea.

IBT Another Barb moves up into the Lake Mountains S of the Gold

1870 BC Turn 45 (My last one)
We learn the wheel and start Alph (in 7). We have horses SE of Moscow!
Moscow grows to 5 and I hire a beakerhead to stop the potential disorder (this can be changed). If we use the lux slider we can keep the disorder at bay but Alphabet goes to 8.
Workers start mining the square SE of Moscow
Scout backtracks to start a spying mission into Babylonian land

And my turnset ends.
Iron Hill and Moscow will make spears next turn. Moscow is ready to pump
out another settler.
The German archer put a beating on us but SSP end up in the clear.
We have two sources of hourses near. I think we will need another dot map
as there are things going on. Getting the horses would be nice, so would stealing the wines from Abe. Perhaps growth should be our main concern. It's hard to know what to do with this AW thing.

Barbs are encroaching but we are well defended against them. It would be nice to have an offencive unit or two to deal with invading units. Warriors just don't cut it anymore. Walls would be nice but I don't think they are immediately necessary.
All and all, I feel pretty good about the set. I got lucky against the Americans
and maybe I shouldn't have taken the chance but it ended up being mportant.
I don't know if SSP could have survived a two-pronged attack.

Here's how our empire stands

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/RussianEmpire.jpg

Here are the Babs down south

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/TheSouth.jpg

And our research stands thus:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/thetechtree.jpg

And the save

Oh yea, our military stands thus:
5 warriors (1 vet 1 elite)
1 Spear (2 more next turn)
3 workers
1 scout

There's 2 FP tiles within your mosaic, but you let it grow at 10 turns intervals? This is a crime in many countries and a sin for most religions, you know ...

This and going all out to explore early in AW games :nono:

@Phaedo: Looks good. If I'm counting right, we killed as many units as we lost; that ratio should tip more in our favor once we have swordsmen and barracks. Also, I second the motion for a new dotmap. I still say we should settle Pink Dot next (after getting rid of that Hittite archer), but after that, our priorities may have changed. Of course, if we want the wine, we'll have to get it very soon.

There's 2 FP tiles within your mosaic, but you let it grow at 10 turns intervals? This is a crime in many countries and a sin for most religions, you know ...

This and going all out to explore early in AW games :nono:
Gotta agree. We've got three foes right now, we don't need any more for a while. If they find us, they find us. But let's not make our lot any harder.

Having said that, we could still use the scout to explore around us and the gaps between our foes. He just doesn't need to be too curious.

As for Mosaic Moscow, well, micro-managing is a learned skill and we have not addressed that at all. Moscow should be growing faster, but when it's your first time at AW and the AIs are starting to swarm......point made, lesson learned, and thanks.

Good notes, Phaedo, and good playing.

I think we do need a new dotmap. If we get wines, it won't be until the end of the next turnset. But if we can make settlers in MM and spears elsewhere, we can send spears out in advance to claim our land (wines and Pink Dot come to mind).

Not sure if it the best thing, but my gut reaction is to claim the wines, and the city sites to the south and then concentrate on military build up. We need the wines to keep our citizens sloshed and docile. With our military we can keep the southern city sites clear of any Hittite infestation. Three cities, if not more, we might be able to get built in the next 20 turns or so. I think we could squeeze our four settlers in the next two turnsets. Not so sure about four cities.

The Roster:.

Aabraxan
Phaedo - just played
D'Artagnan59 - UP!
CivActuary - on deck
Norton II - warming up
CommandoBob

Nice job, Phaedo.:goodjob:

Well-played and well-documented.

I think Beorn-el-Feared is right about getting MM to grow faster. I should have attended to that as soon as I got the FPs irrigated. Lesson learned.

I also agree that it's time for a new dotmap. As for settling order, my gut is to claim the wines, as well. We've got iron and won't need the horses for a while.

When do we want to start barracks?

Point taken about the undeveloped FP. I stand ashamed:blush:. If we want to use it, we need to develop it. It was a worker mistake not, I think a MMing mistake. I really don't know why it happened. Usually I am obsessive about food:(

As for the scout though, in my defense, he didn't start busting new fog until we had already met and declared agains Babylon (Bringing us to 4 wars: Hittites, USA, Germany and Babylon). In all likelyhood those are the civs we face on our continent and I thought that as we are already at war with them, it would be a good idea to know who we are facing and where they are. As we are at war, wouldn't any information about out opponents be useful? There was also the possibility of goddy huts.

Point taken about the undeveloped FP. I stand ashamed:blush:. If we want to use it, we need to develop it. It was a worker mistake not, I think a MMing mistake. I really don't know why it happened. Usually I am obsessive about food:(

As for the scout though, in my defense, he didn't start busting new fog until we had already met and declared agains Babylon (Bringing us to 4 wars: Hittites, USA, Germany and Babylon). In all likelyhood those are the civs we face on our continent and I thought that as we are already at war with them, it would be a good idea to know who we are facing and where they are. As we are at war, wouldn't any information about out opponents be useful? There was also the possibility of goddy huts.
I agree about the scout. Now that we're probably at war with everybody on our continent, we should explore as much as possible, and if there are still huts to pop, we should pop them. As for the flood plains, it might not be the worst idea to irrigate the other one and get Mosaic Moscow to 3-turn growth. Once we've got wines hooked up, unhappiness won't be as much of a problem, and we can get settlers out faster (escorted, of course). BTW, another worker might be useful; anyone else think so? Also, Aabraxan asked about barracks a little earlier. I think we should get them up soon, but we ought to have a few swordsmen around to do the fighting while the barrracks are being built. Maybe archers instead, since they're cheaper and can easily deal with the units we've encountered so far. IOW, maybe swordsmen should wait until we can build vets.

I stand ashamed :blush:Don't. Don't think about what dou did wrong, think about what you did right, and how what was wrong could have been done right. Then you'll start improving - and have an easier time keep the morale up

...I do not think that I know what I do not know.Promising already ;)

I agree with Nortion II about the barracks. I asked about them primarily to get them on everyone's "radar screen." We need them soon, but not right this minute. I also agree that another worker would be handy.

Obviously, war will always be a priority for us. But if we use MM primarily for pumping out settlers, the wines will go a long way towards keeping our citizens happy.

Forgive my forgetfulness, but what did we decide on after Alpha?

AFAIK, we're researching math next to get catapults. After that, I don't think we've decided anything for sure. I'd like to go for writing and lit next if we're going to build the GL. If not, maybe construction, then a monarchy beeline. No need to decide just this minute, though.

I guess we did decide on Math but after thinking about it a bit, I think it depends if we are going for the GL or not. I'm all for math but if we are going to go for the GL, maybe we should head for it now. I don't know if scientific leaders are on, but as we are scientific, if we get to Lit through being the first to Phil, we are pretty much guaranteed a sci leader. That's an instant GL. This may be an exploit that's not allowed or they may be turned off making it irrelevant.

If we are going for the GL (and I suppose it would effectively allow us to keep a larger army), then by the time we get Lit, math would be cheap (or probably instant if the sci leader thing is on). It might be more efficient to get it first. Cats are nice on defence and for weakening invading forces but their real value is in taking cities right? Do we think we will be ready to take cities before we get the GL? If so, it makes sense to get Math first. If not, we'll get it anyway.

If we're not going for the GL, I think NortonII's math->construction->monarchy is a good bet.

I don't know if scientific leaders are on, but as we are scientific, if we get to Lit through being the first to Phil, we are pretty much guaranteed a sci leader.

AFAIK, your chances are still only 5% even with being Scientific.

AFAIK, your chances are still only 5% even with being Scientific.
Really, I didn't know that. It's happened the last four times in a row for me. I just assumed it was a guaranteed thing.

As for the dot map, here is what I quickly worked up (sorry for the bad graphics):

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/CBobdotmap2-1.jpg

A decesion should be made between the pink and purple dot but I think my vote goes to pink as it would set up our kill zone nicely and set up taking the spices and horses with a CxxC pattern. The purple is in better position from Moscow but I think the overall layout of the pink is to our advantage. .

I'd say pink/purple or yellow should be settled next. I like the idea of stealing the wine from the Americans and it would keep a nice defence from the Hittites as well. If we do go fro yellow however, we will need a pretty strong escort to protect us from the Yanks and the Barbs.

The green dot is weak but I couldn't see another way to get the horses. Really, if we had blue, we could probably just forget about green. After lookig at it a bit more, I think a city between the horses and iron would be a much better position so let's just pretend that green dot isn't there;)

If we want to skip math for now, maybe we ought to go directly for lit rather than try to get philosophy first--everyone we know except the Babs is up alpha on us already, so if they're also up writing (which we won't know for 7 turns), one of them will almost certainly get philosophy before we do. We're more likely to get an SGL from lit that from philo, but we shouldn't count on it. I'd rather set up a prebuild, probably in Pink Dot once it's founded. Speaking of which, here's a dotmap I came up with last night (keep in mind that this is my first attempt at dotmapping):

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p196/Norton_II/RussiaPlan.jpg
I'd rather go for the wines up north than those near New York, though Phaedo's wine city would make a good kill zone as well. If the Americans beat us to it, we should settle on White Dot. I think Pink, Light Green, and Light yellow should be our first priorities, though, followed by White Dot and Light Blue Circle (around the spices). That'll get us our kill zone and our luxes; Red Dot (or maybe Blue Dot) should come after that for horses, and the rest can wait.

General Note on Dotmaps:
I find it helpful (and sometimes confusing) to also show the initial nine tiles that each new city would claim. That is, I draw a box around the city dot using the same color as the city dot. And since I draw poorly, I also turn on the map grid.

This helps to spot overlap and connections.

General Notes on Our Dots
Building our next cities will also determine who we will focus our fighting on. Grabbing the wines next to New York will bring us closer to the Americans. That city will face a lot of attacks by the Yanks and we will need to protect our worker with a couple of units.

Grabbing the north wines will be safer since we could actually settle on those wines. We may lose some growth ability, but that might be worth if for some happy citizens. And since the north seems rather quiet, we could get by with only a one unit escort for any workers in the area.

But the real decision is whom do we want to kill first: the Light Blue Americans or the sort-of Light Blue Hittites? We should build our non-luxury cities towards that civ.

In fact, building towards the Yankee wines but claiming the northern wines may be a very smart move. The Yanks will still attack but we have no units on the flat lands to defend.

Gut reactions:

The only thing that would worry me on trying to grab the wines by New York would be being too strung out - we'd be basically built in a straight line and getting reinforcements from one end of the empire to another might take a while. I'd favor the wines in the north.

Those are some primo lands to our south though - I see (from the dotmap only since I'm at work right now) rivers and cows all good for growing. I think settling that direction (ie pink, light green, and light yellow from Norton's) would be good.

We should decide which wonder we are going for now.
If GL we should go straight for Writing and then Lit.
If GW we should go Math and Construction.

I think we should build a couple archers for some offensive punch, then lay down some barracks to build vet swords.

Just some quick thoughts:

I think we need to reach some sort of (quasi) firm decision on whether we want the GLib or the GW. We seem to have narrowed it down to those two wonders for the moment and they'd both be incredibly useful. We get Alpha in 7 turns and I think that our research path forks at that point -- we can't do both paths well. I'm pretty nervous about not having the GLib, just because we can't trade for techs, but, then again, I'm also nervous about not having the GW. . . (I'm generally nervous about this game.) The GW path includes cats and we can build them as well without barracks as with. I'm leaning towards GW, but I do have one question. If we build it, cities that we capture get automatic & instant walls, right? What happens if we lose one of those cities? Do they keep the walls?

The Hittites aren't going to be able to bring 3-wheel chariots over the mountains, but they might bring them up from the south. If they kill a unit with one, they get their GA. The Americans can't get a UU-triggered GA for a very long time.

We don't have CB yet, but . . . Now this may be a half-baked plan and I'm counting on you guys to tell me if it is. After we get CB, can we settle Phaedo's blue dot (1 NE of Norton II's blue dot), crank some settlers out of MM, join them to the blue dot and whip a temple? Wouldn't that allow us to grab both the horses and the wine? Or is that stretching ourselves too thin? Also, how much does the AI pillage colonies?

Settlement: On Phaedo's map, I like the purple dot better than pink. I always lean towards a denser empire for reinforcement purposes. As far as what order we settle in, I say go for the wines to the north (not by NY). I agree that trying to grab them (the ones by NY) at this point leaves us way too strung out. After that, maybe purple by the river or south to the horses near MM?

And now, for Aabraxan's Noobie Question of the Day:
How do you turn on the map grid? I've looked at my preferences, but haven't been able to find it.

What happens if we lose one of those cities? Do they keep the walls?

No.

How do you turn on the map grid? I've looked at my preferences, but haven't been able to find it.

Control + G.

Thanks Bucephalus.

As to my suggestion earlier, I just read the GOTM rules today and it looks like joining workers to pop-rush is disallowed there . . . :blush:

We don't have CB yet, but . . . Now this may be a half-baked plan and I'm counting on you guys to tell me if it is. After we get CB, can we settle Phaedo's blue dot (1 NE of Norton II's blue dot), crank some settlers out of MM, join them to the blue dot and whip a temple? Wouldn't that allow us to grab both the horses and the wine? Or is that stretching ourselves too thin? Also, how much does the AI pillage colonies?
I'd prefer to use settlers to found cities, and I'd prefer those cities to have resources in their initial 9-tile radius to make cultural expanison unnecessary (I'd rather use 60 shields for 2 swordsmen than for a temple). That's why I put Blue Dot and White Dot where I did; neither is a first-rate city location, but both allow us to claim a resource without having to build a temple or library. As for colonies, they don't need to be pillaged; if an enemy unit moves onto the tile containing the colony, that colony is automatically destroyed. The AI will do this given the opportunity. That's why we shouldn't build colonies, not to mention we don't want to lose workers at this point in the game.

As to my suggestion earlier, I just read the GOTM rules today and it looks like joining workers to pop-rush is disallowed there . . . :blush:
Are we playing by GOTM rules or by some other set of rules?

Now, GL vs. GW: I'd rather build the GL. It'll help us catch up in tech and save money. Money is a definite issue in monarchy; there's no commerce bonus, but unit support is low (until your cities grow), and pop-rushing isn't available. True, the GW would be nice, but it might be more cost-effective just to build walls in our "kill zone" cities. Cities in the interior and along the eastern coast probably won't need them, and once we start going on the offensive, we'll probably stay on the offensive, so captured cities may not need them either.

Now this may be a half-baked plan and I'm counting on you guys to tell me if it is. After we get CB, can we settle Phaedo's blue dot (1 NE of Norton II's blue dot), crank some settlers out of MM, join them to the blue dot and whip a temple?

Ah, not quite.

The key to me was 'crank some settlers out of MM'.

So lets say we make three settlers in one turn and send them all the Phaedo's Blue Dot. They all arrive at the same time and in one turn Blue Dot City is at size 5. Now on the next turn we are going to whip citizens to rush a temple. I'm not sure of the math, but lets say it takes 4 citizens to make that temple. So on turn 2 the city goes from size 5 down to size 1. On turn 3 we complete the temple and in 5 more turns we have a culture expansion to claim the land we want.

We could achieve the same thing with just two settlers, if we placed them just right. And get both goodies faster; probably on the same turn. And not waste citizens (from the pop-rush) and production time (making the settlers that get wasted to make a temple).

Good idea, but I don't think you thought it all the way through. Not thinking things through is a real good way to learn how things really work, but the learning curve can be a bit steep. The University of Hard Knocks is a great teacher but the methods used to drive home a point are very painful.

But having ideas and seeing if they work or not is part of what a Training Day Game is all about. So don't give up on having ideas.


Are we playing by GOTM rules or by some other set of rules?

As far as allowed cheats, exploits, etc, let' s use the GOTM rules. They are fairly standard and not too cumbersome or restrictive.

In the north, Norton's blue and white dot are much better than by blue and green one. I should have used a bigger screenshot and looked at the bigger picture. Stealing Abe's wines was just a thought and not a really good one. Actually if we are going to steal something it makes much more sense to deprive him of iron. As for pink vs. Purple, like Norton, my opinion is that pink is better. True, it is bit far from Moscow but Moscow will be producing settlers for a while and Pink (or purple) won't be getting many units from that direction while Iron city will be a fair producer and Pink is only 2 from it. In addition, Pink will grow fast and the extra space to grow won't hurt it or Moscow.

Here's a bit of a simplified dot map without the US wine city and the addition of a US iron city. the others are the same as Norton's.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/phaedo40/zoomoutCbob2dots.jpg

Looking at just these choices, Pink would seem to be the obvious next choice for a city. The order in which we expand north and south should be discussed though. the kill zone city (not on this map) is important but I can't really estimate when we will be ready for it. Maybe we want to rush there (to head off the Hittites) or maybe we want to expand north a bit first. Maybe the question is: can we squeeze out the white dot before the Hittites claim our kill zone or make it overly arduous for us to claim? Regardless, I like placing white first and then infilling blue.

I don't think the green dot is at the top of the priority list but denying other civs of iron could be EXTREMELY helpful to us as we will be fighting them for the rest of the game. An earlyish White also makes it hard for the AI to claim that northern iron

I don't know why my shots are all fuzzy. Sorry:bowdown:
Here's an attached file that may be clearer. My earlier screenies weren't bad. I wonder what's wrong:confused:

I like Pink as our first next city. It is closer to the Hittites and we get across the river.

I am considering two white dot cities, one on the wines and one NW of the iron, on a coastal hill. Where the White Dot is now, we have to build a library or temple to claim the iron by culture expansion. If we build a city we get more bang for our buck (no upkeep on the building plus we make money from our citizens.) The real key to how effective these two cities could be is how fast we could get roads to them. We don't need a second iron but the AIs don't need any iron.

Aside from cities, we need to decide on science after Alphabet, Wonder building and who will be the subject of our first major war effort.

As for research, I think we need WC. Archers are pretty cheap and we could build a few quickly to ward off threats without comitting the turns to swords.

As for wonders, my vote is for GL too. Maybe it's just because it's comfortable. I just forsee major cash issues in the future and walls are quick and free for upkeep so the short term benifit of WC is much greater.

White on the wines wouldn't be bad at all. roading would be a bit difficult but it would allow a costal city (with slow growth to claim the iron) later. If we are going to steal iron, it's that western iron that will be in contention before the northern one and it seems like the only competetor for both is Abe. If the strategy is to steal from Abe, the western one would seem to be the first choice. If we are going to accept that Abe gets iron, we won't have to protect the northern one for quite a while (until another Ai get trebs and it would be nice to know where they are to assess that threat) so we should just focus on best placement for growth.

I'm convinced we should focus on overcoming the Hittites first. They are close, will compete for land and are our greatest short-term threat. The Americans are quite far away and I think with well defended cities we can keep them at bay for a while without having to exert ourselves (plus they lost 3 warriors on my turn set so they are presently weak). We have a relative military advantage over the Americans as opposed to other civs as they have lost more units. It would be much easier to mount a concerted offensive against the Hittites while keeping the Yanks at bay than the reverse. I just wonder if there isn't a way to capitalize on Abe's present relative weakness.

Abe is industrious and his capital is on good land (so is the Hittite cap). The Hittites are close and can give us earlier pressure. But Abe has lost three warriors. He will grow faster than the Hittites because he can develop his land faster. If he gets iron, he will be that much harder to deal with. We aren't in a position to take him down significantly yet but we should seriously think about blocking him from the iron. If we don't set up a city to do it, a couple of warriors running interference against the settler he eventually sends that way might be a good compromise. The Americans with archers against our swords is a lot nicer than their swords against ours. I don't have the answers but Abe poses a serious mid-range threat and if we could find a way to minimize it, I think our life will be much easier later. Of course, maybe I'm just worring too much because this AW thing is so disconcerting.:crazyeye:

As for research, I think we need WC. Archers are pretty cheap and we could build a few quickly to ward off threats without comitting the turns to swords.
We've already got WC, but you're right about archers, as well as about focusing on the Hittites first. Also, stealing the wines wasn't a bad idea at all; it's just that we might not be able to beat the Americans to that location and beat the Hittites to the good locations near them.

Chalk up my vote for the GL. reasons:
- I've never built the GW, so am not used to it, more comfort with GL
- Cash issues others have mentioned

So for research I think we should go Writing and then Lit. After that - ?

We've already got WC
Oh yea. Oops:blush: :). I guess that means Writing after Alph gets my research vote

Good idea, but I don't think you thought it all the way through. Not thinking things through is a real good way to learn how things really work, but the learning curve can be a bit steep. The University of Hard Knocks is a great teacher but the methods used to drive home a point are very painful.

But having ideas and seeing if they work or not is part of what a Training Day Game is all about. So don't give up on having ideas.

You're right. I didn't think that all the way through. I was too focused on the number of cities we'd have to defend and reinforce.

As far as allowed cheats, exploits, etc, let' s use the GOTM rules. They are fairly standard and not too cumbersome or restrictive.

Frankly, I'd been operating on the assumption that we'd be using GOTM rules for these, just because they're standardized.

You're right. I didn't think that all the way through. I was too focused on the number of cities we'd have to defend and reinforce.

I, too, have problems not seeing the forest because of all the trees!

But keep thinking!

I know that I posted the Wonder standings in this thread earlier, but the post has gone AWOL. I wanted to post research as well, but just don't have time today. As always, if I misstate anyone's vote, let me know and I'll correct it.

Wonders:
Aabraxan: Great Wall
Phaedo: Great Library
D'Artagnan59: ???
CivActuary: Great Library
Norton II: Great Library
CommandoBob: ???

I've also had another idea regarding standings and tracking them. I have a post on the first page that I could edit to become the "Current Standings" post on whatever items are currently under debate. That would give us one central post on the first page to look at to see where our decision-making process stands. Would anyone else find this helpful?

Dont know if a lurker's comment makes the cut, but I say the Great Wall. As a monarch/emperor player, I am enjoying this lots of discussion. :)

Wonders:
Aabraxan: Great Wall
Phaedo: Great Library
D'Artagnan59: ???
CivActuary: Great Library
Norton II: Great Library
CommandoBob: ???

I don't have a clear preference either way. I prefer the Great Wall because it is a fresh idea to me. Seems like everybody makes a beeline for the Great Library.

I'm not really worried about the tech race. I am concerned about having to make a lot of units to keep up the arms races we will be in with our feisty neighbors. I would favor the GW because it does provide a tangible benefit to our troops. Many of the cities we capture will be small and rebellious. Having an instant defensive bonus would be nice. We could then concentrate on starving the city down to size 1 and then letting it grow back with a strong Russian flavor.

Remember how the tech costs work. As more civs that we know learn a tech, our price (in beakers of research) decreases. I think that if make a point to have a library as our second or third city improvement we can keep up with the tech leaders.


I've also had another idea regarding standings and tracking them. I have a post on the first page that I could edit to become the "Current Standings" post on whatever items are currently under debate. That would give us one central post on the first page to look at to see where our decision-making process stands. Would anyone else find this helpful?

Sounds good to me. Just be sure to indicate where/when we made a decision or reached an understanding.

Maybe something like this, indicating an open item:
First Wonder: GW, GL or HG

that could go to this when it was decided/completed/whatever:
First Wonder: Hanging Gardens Post #??? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4592837&postcount=6)

Or maybe the open items should have the color and bold highlights, to make them stand out.

I like your idea.

'Make it so.'

If I may make one more pitch for the GW; if one of your opponents builds the GL, it will not benefit them greatly, as they will only advance as fast as the other AI's. This is something that they will do anyway, as the AI gives favourable trades to one another. Plus, if it is on your Continent, you will eventually capture it; however, if they build the GW, your conquest becomes 50% more difficult. Why give them that advantage?

I guess what I'm saying is not only will the GW benefit you greatly, simply depriving your opponents of it will deprive them of the benefits, a win-win situation.

According to Phaedo, D'Artagnan59 will be out for a while. That post is here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4682211&postcount=225).

Revised Roster:

Aabraxan
Phaedo - just played
D'Artagnan59 - ghosting
CivActuary - UP!
Norton II - on deck
CommandoBob - warming up

I have a bad lingering cold.

On page 1 of this thread, I have edited my first post to include "The Standings" on whatever issues we're deciding. While I really enjoy the discussion that goes into deciding these issues, I get really, really tired of digging through pages and pages of posts to determine how each player stands on a given issue.

I anticipate deleting votes that become non-issues as they do so. For example, once we've built our First Wonder, whatever it may be, I will replace the "First Wonder" section with a "Second Wonder" section. Hopefully, I can keep a nice, neat tally of our plans.

I will do my level best to accurately state everyone's opinion on each issue. In the event I should misstate your opinion or the group's status in terms of the decision, do not hesitate to let me know and I will correct it as soon as I can.

If you think of any information that should be included, or of improvements in how I can present this information, please let me know.

Ok, Got it. Before I get into it, let's review our short term goals:

Expansion - Get pink dot, I think we are all agreed on this
Research - finish Alpha - then Math according the the page 1 post? If going GL should we do Writing?
Wonder - still discussing. Y'all are making me doubt my GL pick though ;) Bucephalus's point about denying to your enemy has made the most sense to me as a arguement for GW.
Military - build a couple archers for offense before making a barracks
Maybe sneak a worker in somewhere.

I'll probably play tonight or tomorrow night.


Oh and Aabraxan - good work on the organization post. :goodjob:

Thanks.

As for Math, I've put it in there, but I'm not entirely sure it's still accurate. Math was "decided" a couple of pages back, so clarification from the others as to where we stand on this would help. I've edited the organizational post to reflect this uncertainty. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

As I said, the GL was more out of a sense of comfort for me so I'm happy with the GW really. However, I'm not as confident about our research ability as CBob. The gold it will take to suport our forces will severly cut into our research budget. Thank God we are only on Monarch:eek: . Could just be the learning curve though;)

The gold it will take to suport our forces will severly cut into our research budget.
Whatever do you mean? In Despotism, you get 4 free units per town and unless you go Republic (which you shouldnt) , Monarchy is pretty much the same (maybe a unit less). :confused:

Monarchy is 2 per city until they grow to 7. I'm just thinking the stacks we will need to wage war on 3 civs will mean a bigger force than even Despotism will allow (I might just be overestimating our needs though). Corruption will be an issue until we get communism too so I can't see how we will be in the black much.

Phaedo beat me to it - Monarchy is 2/4/8, Despotism is 4/4/4. I know we were not going to hurry to switch to Monarchy or anything, but once we get there, I was worried about supporting our glorious armies, which is one of my reasons for supporting the GL push - we would have cash to support and rush.

So it is a severe cut. And what do you gain? Turns of anarchy. Not until are your populations high enough to get past 6 (or require the faster growth) should you switch. Especially if you have the Great Library, you do not need to switch. (Despotism gives less commerce, so less research and fund gains can occur; the free techs are more worth it.)

Yet also, for despotism, you will get most of the benefits of the Great Wall, which go away after you reach cityhood, something faster reached by monarchy. So if you plan to expand and expand new cities, Despotism is definitely what you want.

As for which wonder first, I would think that the Great Library would be more helpful; as long as you use your artillery and mounted units effectively (assuming you build them), you should be fine from attacks when placing high defense units in your border towns.

I'm doing the preflight - I think I'm going to put that geek in Moscow back to work and use the slider instead. That means Moscow will grow in 4 not 10. Anyone out there have a problem running -1gpt so we still get Alpha in 7? We've got 44 gold, so we can afford it I think.

Also, CAII says Respawn AI is on - is that right?

FWIW - I am going to start tracking here again soon...heavy dose of RL lately....

Anyone out there have a problem running -1gpt so we still get Alpha in 7? We've got 44 gold, so we can afford it I think.

Not at all. You're in the captain's chair.

Also, CAII says Respawn AI is on - is that right?
I didn't see that. Grrrreeeeaaattt . ..

Yet also, for despotism, you will get most of the benefits of the Great Wall, which go away after you reach cityhood,

But a city has a 50% defence bonus, so loses nothing with growth.

I'm doing the preflight - I think I'm going to put that geek in Moscow back to work and use the slider instead. That means Moscow will grow in 4 not 10.

Growth is good. What is Mosiac Moscow making?


Anyone out there have a problem running -1gpt so we still get Alpha in 7? We've got 44 gold, so we can afford it I think.

Short run negative gpt is not a problem.


Also, CAII says Respawn AI is on - is that right?

So we get to kill the Hittites two times. Is that a bad thing? :D
(For no good reason, I always have respawn set to on. Can't explain it or really defend it; it is something I think I like.)

So we get to kill the Hittites two times. Is that a bad thing? :D
(For no good reason, I always have respawn set to on. Can't explain it or really defend it; it is something I think I like.)

I don't think it will be the Hittites. If I recall, an unused civ will be respawned in a random location in the fog (I'm pretty sure I'm remembering this from PTW so it may be bollocks). If this assumption is right, we would want to have expanded out to all the land we want to claim before we kill off a civ.

Tribute makes a good point about the change to Monarchy being something we don't want to rush into. Really, the only downside to despotism for us is the irrigation penality as I see it. Corruption is less in Monarchy but not by a lot. The irrigation penality is something that really hurts over the long run though.


As for which wonder first, I would think that the Great Library would be more helpful; as long as you use your artillery and mounted units effectively (assuming you build them), you should be fine from attacks when placing high defense units in your border towns.
But a city has a 50% defence bonus, so loses nothing with growth.

So it seems the relevant question to answer for the wonder is this:
Is free tech and 0ish% science going to be more, or less helpful than free walls in border towns and newly captured cities? (aside from the GL's 6 culture as opposed to the 2 for the GW)

Is seems that the GL would be more useful but there is something to be said for the experimentation factor and there's nothing wrong with a challenge (although I must say I'm feeling pretty challenged by the AW thing as it is:crazyeye: )

So it seems the relevant question to answer for the wonder is this:
Is free tech and 0ish% science going to be more, or less helpful than free walls in border towns and newly captured cities? (aside from the GL's 6 culture as opposed to the 2 for the GW)

Is seems that the GL would be more useful but there is something to be said for the experimentation factor and there's nothing wrong with a challenge (although I must say I'm feeling pretty challenged by the AW thing as it is:crazyeye: )

Of course, you may not be first to either. When you decide which one to go for, it would be useful to have both Literature and Construction so that production could be switched to your second choice Wonder.

Actually Buce, you are absolutely right! Our first choice will affect our research choice but if we forget about Monarchy for a bit and just focus on the top of the tech tree, we could have the other as a backup option with a super pre-build in place.:D

It is so easy to get bogged down in the details and forget to look up to see the big picture:sad:

Growth is good. What is Mosiac Moscow making?Spear due next turn. After that I am going to pump out a settler to go get pink dot. That's why I want the extra growth, too. To paraphrase Gordon GekkoThe point is, ladies and gentleman, that growth -- for lack of a better word -- is good. Growth is right. Growth works.

Good point about researching for both wonders though, plus delaying Monarchy.

HG for 2nd Wonder.

The Great Russian Conquest
CivActuary

Pre-Turn Strategy for the next 10 turns:
Build a Settler in Moscow and found new city on pink dot
Build an archer or 2 for some offensive punch
Finish Alphabet and start on Math

OOB:
3 Workers
1 Scout
5 Warriors (3r/1v/1e)
1 Spear (r)

State of the Empire:
Mosaic Moscow (5) grows in 10, rSpear in 1
Iron Hill (1) grows in 4, rSpear in 1
Silly St. Peteys (2) grows in 3, rSpear in 3

PreFlight:
Some housekeeping first of all - Rename our Spear to Spearman01 since we'll soon be getting a couple more. Rename the only unnamed Warrior to Warrior07 (as 1 and 2 have died heroically on the fields of battle).

As I mentioned, I decide to put the geek in Moscow back to work. Lux to 10%. Moscow now grows in 4 instead of 10. And producing 8 spt means we can build a settler in 4 instead of 5, plus recover from building that settler quicker. Alpha still in 7, and we are running a deficit of -1gpt. We've got 44 gold, might as well use it, it's not like we can buy anything from anyone.

And off we go into the unknown...

IBT
Barb Warriors around Iron Hill move away onto Gold Mountain
Hittite Archer stays on the game. Odd, I expected him to move to the mountain.
MM: rSpear --> Settler (due in 4)
IH: rSpear --> rArcher (due in 7)

1830 BC Turn 48
Scout moves 2SE to hill. Looks like Ashur has 3 sugar around it.
What to do with Worker01? All three workers are on the tile SE of Moscow, 02 and 03 are mining. Trying to wake them says they will be done in 2 turns. But Hovering over the mine button for Worker01 also says 2 turns, so adding him to the mine won't make a difference (Not sure what went on here before). Move 01 to the BG just N of pink dot. Spearman02 from Iron Hill moves to cover.
Spearman03 fortifies in Moscow.

IBT
Barbarians from Gold Mountain move back next to Iron Hill. No idea what they are doing.

1790 BC Turn 49
Scout moves onto mountain. Babs look to have silks in their radius.
Worker01 starts road
Spearman02 fortifies on Worker01

IBT
2nd Hittite vArcher moves onto game. This is going to be trouble.
Barb warriors split around Iron Hill - 1N, 1NE
SSP: rSpear --> rArcher (due in 7). SSP grows to size 3 and will grow no more. I'd call for a worker here, but it will take 20 turns to grow back to 3, so decide against it.

1750 BC Turn 50
Scout moves S,SW. Can see the coast around Ashur, some gold and a cow.
Workers 02 and 03 move to join Worker01
Workers look hungry so wake Spearman03 from Moscow to take some borscht to them.
Spearman04 fortifies in SSP
Wake Warrior03 in SSP and send toward MM. I don't like the looks of things down there.

IBT
Both Hittite Archers move to the mountain SE of IH.
Barb Warriors now E and 2NE of IH. 3rd seen in mountains W of IH.

1725 BC Turn 51
Hire taxman in MM (grew to 6) to prevent riot for 1 turn. Alpha still in 3 but now we are +1gpt (I actually played with the slider and this way worked best)
Scout continues mountain exploration. Lots of grass down here for Hammy.
Workers 02 and 03 start mine, but send demands for caviar. Barbs are on the road, so no reinforcing IH.
Warrior06 gets caviar duty, joins workers.
Warrior03 moves into MM
It's a bad deal to attack a vArcher on a mountain with a rWarrior, so IH garrison holds fast. Batten down the hatches. Pray. Click enter.

IBT
1st Hittite Archer attacks the Barb! Wins, of course, with no damage.
2nd Hittite Archer thinks better of attacking the stout IH garrison and instead tries to crash the borscht and caviar picnic on the riverbank. Spearman03 redlined but wins and is promoted to veteran! (1-0)
MM: Settler --> rArcher (due in 3)

1700 BC Turn 52
Lux back to 0%, we are at -1gpt (with 41 gold)
Scout still exploring what will become Southern Babylon. I think I see the southern shore.
Not good to attack vArchers on Mountains, but by attacking the barb he's out in the open now. Warrior06 attacks and dies with taking a single point off the archer. (1-1) Curses, I was hoping to soften him up before sending in the elites. Ah well. Warrior04 attacks and wins (but is redlined). (2-1) The road to IH is open once more.
Settler moves toward pink dot.
Worker01 moves to mine grassland E of IH.
Spearman02 moved to cover Worker01 and Warrior04 (don't want to lose him to that barb there)

IBT
Another barb moves toward the one already on Gold Mountain. The 3rd stays fortified 2NE of IH.

1675 BC Turn 53
Alpha due in 1, but only if we keep sci at 90%. We are breaking even.
Scout still scouting. Not a lot to do down here.
Warrior04 returns to IH for a little R&R
Spearman03 and settler move onto pink dot

IBT
Nothing moving.
We learn Alpha. Can get Writing in 13, Math in 16. As the vote on page one is 3-2 for the GL, with those 2 seemingly waffling, I decide to go Writing in 13.

1650 BC Turn 54
Scout scouting. a little nervous about approaching Babylon, I'm on the final mountain.
Rowdy Rostov founded on Pink dot. Grows in 10, Archer in 10. Oh, and Writing now in 11.
Spearman03 fortifies in RR
Worker02 moves to help Worker01 in the mines.
Worker03 moves to do tasks in the N, like get that floodplain and mine that oasis up there.

IBT
Barb on mountain fights and kills someone unseen
MM: rArcher --> Worker (due in 2)
IH: rArcher --> rax (due in 8) (This can be changed if we have a better idea, but we are going to have some good shields here, and we've got some archers, it's time for some swords.

1625 BC Turn 55
Lux to 10% (MM grew). Writing in 9, we are at -1gpt again (but we still have 41g).
Archers fortify. Scout moves to skirt Babylon. Worker03 ready to get to the FP.

IBT
zzz

1600 BC Turn 56
Scout edging around the south of Babylon
Tire of that barb just sitting there on the hill between MM and IH (I was hoping he'd come off). Archer02 from MM kills him.
Workers 01 and 02 and Spearman02 head to develop land around RR.

IBT
Bab spear enters picture, looks to chase our scout.
2 German archers appear on the mountain 2W of SSP
MM: Worker --> Spearman (due in 3) as an escort for the next settler.
SSP: rArcher --> rArcher

1575 BC Turn 57 (my last)
Scout moves onto the last hill in the range S of Babylon and sees a Goody Hut
Worker04 (sorry, I forgot to name him) is moving to help Worker01 at the FP.
Archer03 fortifies in SSP
Workers 01 and 02 along with Spearman03 move to work BG SW of RR. Notice a Bab conscrpit sitting a few spots away.

And that's my 10.


Ending Order of Battle:
4 Workers
1 Scout
4 Warriors (2r/1v/1e)
3 Archers (3r)
4 Spear (3r/1v)

We only lost 1 Warrior, and killed 2 Hittite archers and a Barb Warrior.
We built a worker, a settler, 3 archers, and 3 spears during the set.

State of the Empire:
Mosaic Moscow (4) grows in 2, rSpear in 3
Iron Hill (2) grows in 4, Barracks in 6
Silly St. Peteys (3) no growth, rArcher in 7
Rowdy Rostov (1), grows in 7, rArcher in 7
We have 39 gold, and are breaking even.
Writing is due in 8 (can be 7 if you want to go to 100% sci at -1gpt)

End Notes:
Worker03 is irrigating the FP near MM. He may need to be moved or protected depending on what those Kraut Warriors do. I left the entire garrison at SSP fortified but with 1 move in case the next player wants to do anything.
Worker04 was on his way to help Worker03.
Workers 01 and 02 are going to improve the grounds around RR, but have not started. They have a spear covering them.
Archer02 was heading back to MM after killing the Barb.
I'm not in love with the builds, so we can change them if we want. I think we should be getting a rax up soon though. Moscow's Spear is intended to be an escort for the next settler.


And the save:
>>FILE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97659/CBob01-CA-Russians_1575_BC.SAV).


Whew - that was intense!

And some pics

Here is our empire
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97659/pic1575bc1.JPG

And the Babs down South
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97659/pic1575bc2.JPG

Downloaded the save. I just noticed something: all of our enemies are blue! We've got the light blue Americans, the blue-green Hittites, the dark blue Germans, and the dark dark blue Babylonians. Not really significant, but a funny coincidence. Anyway, looks like a good turnset. The kill ratio definitely favored us on that one, all objectives were achieved, and the builds look good, so I'm inclined to leave them as they are. After the archers are finished, I'd like to build a worker in SSP and either a worker or a barracks in RR. Swordsmen from IH after the barracks is finished. 5 archers should be enough to hold off our enemies until then. One question: where do we want our next city?

@ Norton - The light green dot from your dotmap (where that Bab Warrior is now) had been suggested as next a while back, I don't know if that is still the favored one though.

After playing a turnset now, though, I noted one thing while I was worrying about the attacks in the South. MM is CxxxC from both SSP and IH. Shifting troops between cities requires more than one turn. In case of an emergency - Do we want some fast units? The hill SE of the horses may be an idea.

edit - I just remembered - I turned the music off in the save. Sorry if that bugs you, I was listening to some Rush while Civving.

Making regular units in AW has a high troop cost, you're better off paying for baracks early and having more surviving units. Before long it pays of tenfold.

Cover that worker !

A good turnset. You got a lot of building done. I think the barracks at Iron Hill is a good idea. It's time to start producing some vets.

I have modified the organizational post to reflect D'artagnan's vote for Hanging Gardens as our Second Wonder.

I have also modified it to reflect the fact that we're now researching Writing.

I have also taken the liberty of listing votes for Literature for all of those who voted for the Great Library as the First Wonder (Phaedo, Norton II, CivActuary). Obviously, if any of you want to research anything else before lit, let me know, I'll change the post.

Making regular units in AW has a high troop cost, you're better off paying for baracks early and having more surviving units. Before long it pays of tenfold.

Cover that worker !
Agreed. I still want a few archers to cover us while the barracks are under construction, though.
@ Norton - The light green dot from your dotmap (where that Bab Warrior is now) had been suggested as next a while back, I don't know if that is still the favored one though.

After playing a turnset now, though, I noted one thing while I was worrying about the attacks in the South. MM is CxxxC from both SSP and IH. Shifting troops between cities requires more than one turn. In case of an emergency - Do we want some fast units? The hill SE of the horses may be an idea.

edit - I just remembered - I turned the music off in the save. Sorry if that bugs you, I was listening to some Rush while Civving.
I was thinking either of that one or the light yellow dot near the cows. As for fast units, we can probably put that off for a little while. RR, at least, has good production potential, so it can defend itself and possibly reinforce IH while MM pumps out settlers. Also, don't worry about the music; I'll turn it back on if I need to.

About the worker, yeah, I should have moved a unit to him, but as I mentioned in the endnotes, Norton, I left it to you to decide which unit to cover with out of SSP. It'll depend how you want to toy with the incoming Germans. ;)

Another reg Archer won't kill us while we are getting swords built up. If you are not threatened out of RR you could change that one to a Rax though. RR has good shield potential and will be making some military.

Both IH and RR have good production potential, I was not too worried about them holding out. It's SSP that concerns me more. I kind of don't know what to do with that place.

Those cows would be good to get - can we defend that location effectively?

I'll play my turnset this weekend (probably Sunday), and I'll check here for any additional recommendations before I do that. Right now, I'm planning to build the next city near the cow in the SE (light yellow dot, IIRC). Also, I might switch the archer build in SSP to a worker.

Right now, I'm seven turns into my set. We have a settler ready in MM and have just discovered writing. At max research, we can get lit in 13 or math in 9, but with -3 gpt. -2 gpt at 90% with lit in 14 or math in 10, +1 gpt at 80 with lit in 16 or math in 10. The lux slider will need to be moved back up when MM grows, so those numbers may change. The Hittites have some archers in the south, but hopefully they'll be gone soon, since I've got 2 archers in RR ready to attack:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p196/Norton_II/archers.jpg

My questions:
1. Do we still want lit next, or should we go for math? 3 other civs already have math, so I reiterate my vote for lit; we don't need cats yet, and we might get an SGL and be able to rush the GL right away.
2. Where to settle next? I was thinking of Light Yellow Dot near the cows, but we'll need more than a spearman to protect it. Should we still go there, or should we get rid of that Bab conscript and setlle Light Green Dot instead? Alternatively, should we grab the wines in the NW?

If I hear nothing by noon tomorrow, I'll play out the rest of the set, keep research on Lit, and use my own discretion as to the next city location (probably LGD or LYD; don't know which at the moment).

Go for Lit next. Assuming that my standings on the first page are correct, that looks like where we're going.

City placement: I've been pushing for the wines, and I think we need to hook up a lux pretty soon. Maybe we need to go ahead and settle near the cows with an eye to hooking up the spices soon?

I vote Lit. We've made our bed, so to speak. Waffling between the two might mean we get shut out for both.

Should we start to consider a pre-build for the GL after your turnset?

As for city spots, I just worry that LYD might be too hard to defend at the moment. LGD would be my pick between those two - it's on a hill, better defense since the Hittites are getting frisky (I killed 2 archers and it looks like you are about to kill 3 more).

The wines are a good alternative though - hooking up a lux would free up all the slider work we are doing to keep MM happy. I would be happy with this too.

Where to settle next? I was thinking of Light Yellow Dot near the cows, but we'll need more than a spearman to protect it. Should we still go there, or should we get rid of that Bab conscript and setlle Light Green Dot instead? Alternatively, should we grab the wines in the NW?

Grab the wines; it will keep the Russian people happy since vodka is not available. :D

Our next city southwards needs to be part of our effort against the Hittites. I would send a Small Stack of Doom with, since it will get a lot of Hittite attention. I'm thinking of a spear, archer and sword. It has a main defender (spear), a main attacker (sword), a backup defender (sword), a backup attacker (archer) and a desperation defender (archer). Once we get our barracks built in Rowdy Rostov we need to stop building regular military and just build veteran (just to state the obvious).

We need to settle for our own growth and production; we could settle closer to the Hittites to further our war effort. But our core is more important, right now, than building an advance base for attacking the Hittites. After two, maybe three more cities for our core, then we could build an advance base. I don't have a location in mind for that advance base. It is a nice idea but not required to take out the Blue-Green Boys.

Well, I've played out my turnset, and something is about to hit the fan. While forum rules prohibit me from specifying exactly what is about to hit the fan, I can tell you that it's going to be messy, and it's not going to smell very good.
Here's the save: 141399
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Plans:
-finish spearman and settler in Mosaic Moscow, send to either Light Yellow Dot or White Dot (Light Green Dot might flip later)
-finish barracks in Iron Hill, start swordsman
-finish archers in Rowdy Rostov and Silly St. Petey's, start barracks in RR, worker in SSP
-don't get wiped out
Initial military strength:
4 workers
4 warriors
3 archers
4 spearmen
Preflight:
-turn music back on
-increase science to 100%: writing in 7, -1 gpt
-move spearman04 onto flood plain to cover worker03
-move archer03 to oasis and fortify
IBT:
-Bab spear moves toward scout
-barb warrior on gold mountain moves 1NE to hill
-German warriors move 1E toward SSP
-writing in 6
Turn 58:
-archer02 to MM, fortify
-rename worker NE of MM to worker04, move to oasis, start mine
-worker01 and worker02 start mining BG SW of RR
-spearman02 fortifies
-scout02 pops hut, gets maps
-archer03 moves to SSP and attacks German vWarrior, archer wins, takes no damage (1-0)
-warrior05 moves 1NE of MM, will reinforce SSP if needed
-end turn
IBT:
-MM grows to 5, grows again in 4
-German rWarrior fortifies
-barb warrior moves to hill N of IH
-Hittite archer appears on mountain 3 SW of RR
-writing in 5
Turn 59:
-lux to 10% to prevent riots in MM, writing still in 5, still -1 gpt
-archer03 attacks German rWarrior, takes off 1 HP, dies (1-1); warrior promoted to veteran
-warrior03 moves to SSP
-scout02 moves 1N to hill
-archer01 kills barb warrior, wins, no damage (2-1)
-end turn
IBT:
Mosaic Moscow: Spearman05->Settler (4), cultural borders expand
-another Hittite vArcher appears on mountain
-Bab spear pursues scout02
-German vWarrior moves 1SW toward spearman04 and worker03
-writing in 4
Turn 60:
-archer01 returns to IH
-spearman05 fortifies, warrior03 fortifies
-scout02 2N to hill
-spearman01 to RR
-spearman03 joins workers 01 and 02
-warrior04 to RR
-archer02 1NE of MM en route to SSP
-end turn
IBT:
-Hittite rArcher attacks spearman03, wins, no damage (2-2)
-German vWarrior moves 1W to hill
-IH grows to 3, grows again in 10
-worker03 finishes irrigating flood plain
-workers 01 and 02 finish mining BG
-writing in 3
Turn 61:
-worker03 starts road
-archer01 fortifies
-archer02 returns to MM
-warrior05 to RR
-warrior04 joins worker01, worker01 starts road
-worker02 moves 1N to grassland
-scout02 moves 1NW to hill
-spearman01 fortifies
-end turn
IBT:
-Hittite rArcher attacks spearman02, dies, no damage to spearman (3-2)
-German vWarrior fortifies
-second Bab spear shows up, joins first on scout chase
-barb warrior moves 1N to gold mountain
-writing in 2
Turn 62
-warrior05 returns to MM
-archer02 moves toward RR
-worker02 starts mining grassland
-warrior04 to RR
-scout02 1 NW to mountain
-warrior03 joins worker03
-end turn
IBT:
-IH Barracks->Swordsman (5)
-MM grows to 6, growth in 4
-German vWarrior heals
-barb warrior 1NE to hill
-Hittite rArcher joins vArcher on mountain 2S of RR
-Bab spears chase scout
-writing in 1
Turn 63:
-lux to 20, sci to 60, writing in 1, +2 gpt
-scout02 1NW to mountain
-archer02 to RR
-warrior04 joins worker01
-warrior05 fortifies in MM
-warrior03 fortifies
-end turn
IBT:
-learn writing, lit in 25
-MM: settler->spearman (3), down to size 4
-SSP: archer05->worker (3)
-RR: archer04->barracks (10)
-another Hittite vArcher shows up, other to move 1N off mountain toward RR
-worker04 finishes mining oasis
-worker03 finishes roading flood plain
-worker01 finishes roading BG
-barb warrior moves to hill 1W of IH
-Bab spears move 1 W to mountain
Turn 64:
-lux to 10, sci to 90, lit in 14, -2 gpt
-move citizen in MM from BG to flood plain
-move settler and spearman05 toward White Dot (near the northwestern wines)
-worker04 2NW to desert, joined by worker03 and escorts
-scout02 1 W to mountain
-archer02 attacks Hittite vArcher, does 1 damage, dies (3-3)
-archer04 attacks Hittite rArcher, wins, no damage (4-3)
-warrior04 attacks Hittite vArcher, wins, 2 damage (5-3)
-spearman02 joins warrior04
-worker01 joins worker02
-archer01 attacks barb warrior, no damage, dies! :gripe: (5-4)
-change citizen in IH to scientist to prevent riots, lit in 12
-move spearman01 toward IH
-archer03 1W to desert
-end turn
IBT:
-barb warrior attacks IH, kills one citizen
-Bab spears move toward Nineveh, shadowing scout02
-German vWarrior attacks spearman04, wins, 1 damage, promoted to elite (5-5)
-Hittite vArcher attacks spearman02, wins, 2 damage (5-6)
-Bab rWarrior joins Bab cWarrior at Light Green Dot
Turn 65:
-spearman01 arrives at IH, fortifies
-worker01 mines grassland
-warrior04 returns to RR
-scout02 1W to hill
-archer04 fortifies
-warrior03 fortifies
-worker03 starts road, worker04 irrigates
-archer05 joins warrior03
-end turn
IBT:
-German eWarrior attacks spearman05, dies, 1 damage (6-6)
-Bab warriors move 1 N toward RR
-Bab spears chase scout02
-Hittite vArcher fortifies on mountain
-MM grows to 5, grows again in 3
Turn 66:
-lux to 20, sci to 80, lit in 13, -2 gpt
-settler and escort 1 N to mountain, joined by archer05
-warrior04 fortifies
-scout02 2W to hill
-move citizen in MM from flood plain to grassland; spear in 1, growth in 4
-end turn
IBT:
-Bab warriors move 1N to game forest, third Bab warrior appears
-another Hittite vArcher appears on mountain
-MM: spearman06->settler (4)
-SSP: worker05->archer (7)
Turn 67:
-lux to 10, sci to 90, lit in 10, -2gpt
-worker05 fortifies
-scout02 2W to desert
-worker01 and 02 1NE
-spearman06 fortifies
-archer04 attacks Bab rWarrior, wins, 1 damage (7-6)
-settler and escorts arrive at White Dot

Military strength at end of turnset:
1 settler
5 workers
1 scout
4 warriors
2 archers
3 spearmen

City status:
Mosaic Moscow: settler in 4, growth in 3
Silly St. Petey's: archer in 7, growth in 20
Iron Hill: swordsman in 3, growth in 4
Rowdy Rostov: barracks in 7, growth in 7
-------------------------------------------------------------
It ain't lookin' too pretty right now. I killed 7 units, one of which was just a barb, and lost 6--3 archers, and 3 spears. There are 4 enemy units visible near RR, and we have 2 units in the city to defend. I don't think it's going to get any better for a while. On the plus side, we're about to build a fifth city, and it shouldn't be too long before wines are hooked up. Obviously, I couldn't settle to the south on this turnset.
What next? It might be necessary to move the units in MM toward RR, even though it would mean moving the lux slider way up. It might also be necessary to whip a swordsman out of IH, though that would be somewhat wasteful. Also, I left the new worker fortified, so CommandoBob can decide what to do with it, along with what reinforcements to send to RR.
Screenshots to follow.

Things are pretty quiet in the north:

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p196/Norton_II/NorthRussia.jpg

But not in the south:

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p196/Norton_II/SouthRussia.jpg

First Impressions, from the screen shots by Norton II.

The situation in the south is certainly interesting and looks bad, but it can be managed.

First, we wake the spear in Iron Hill and move it to Rowdy Rostov. It can reach there in one turn. We also wake the spear in Mosiac Moscow and send it towards Iron Hill, which it will not reach this turn.

On the IBT, the Bab conscript Warrior will head for Iron Hill, since it is empty, and the AI likes easy victories. The other units may or may not head for IH and it does not matter if they do or not. The most damage they can do is move adjacent to RR.

On the next turn, the spear arrives in IH and fortifies. The spear from IH fortifies also, before any attacks occur. If the MM spear had moved to RR, it would have arrived this turn but used all of its movement getting across the river. It could not have fortified. Depending on what is in RR, we may attack the Hittite stack of two. If we win, our victorious unit still stays in the city and will help us defend.

On the next IBT, RR will take three attacks and IH one. IH will survive since the spear is on a hill, RR will mostly likely survive and if it doesn't we'll build it again.

MM's settler won't be able to move towards the spices until we get some more units. It could (just a thought) move towards the sugar, or it could just hang around until we get our forces together. Not really sure which is best. Or we could change the build in MM to a military unit if things got really bad.

Moving the spear out of MM means unhappy citizens. Cash is important, but we need all of the Russian peasants to productive, especially early in the game. So we may have to get smarter at a slower pace for a few turns, until we stop this onslaught.

Building a sword will help a lot on our defenses, since we can build and attack the same turn, which the AI cannot.

Sorry, but at the current win loss ratio, it's game over.

Suggestions:

Walls: You MUST have gotten masonry by now. You should obviously have made a walls down south. That's the only way you can tip the odds in your favor. After all, the RNG did give you below average rolls, but with walls, many losses could have been avoided (except for when you attacked).

Cities: Hold off for now. You NEED the troops. While Mosaic Moscow changes to spearmen, the south should switch to walls. You DO need archers, but you have iron now. So hold off on research and upgrade your warriors in Iron Hill.

Builds: Iron Hill needs to switch to spearmen for a while. Mosaic Moscow as well. Silly St Petey's is rather safe for now and will (slowly) build you some archers. Down south, Rowdy Rostov should make a walls.

Research: Were you the SG with the long first wonder discussion? Well that made little sense now didn't it? If you decided to research literature and not masonry, well that's the game for you (unless you're uber lucky or an extremely good strategist). At any rate, with the number of warriors you have, you may as well halt research (you won't be wonder building for a while) and just focus on upgrading those warriors (60 gold each). Preferably the warriors in the north, which (or would rather use 'who') have less to do.

Reconnaisance: You have 1 scout. If you can find a civ with masonry (if you don't have it), then you should be fine. Also, if you can trade for anything else, well, do it. But that's not the point. The point is to keep units on mountains and hills, to spy for approaching units. You'll be better able to prepare defenses, and you'll like the results.

Units: Move spear from Iron Hill and Mosaic Moscow down south. Send warriors over what should be a worker to the mountain to see farther. Also, make sure to manually move your scout. If any free warriors are in Silly St. Petey's then move them south to Iron Hill. Remember to raise the lux tax and lower science accordingly to get the money for upgrades and have a happy Moscow.

Actually, what I don't get is the settler location. Is it under the damaged spear or under the warrior up north? Cause I would've settle on the horses by the lake. At least that's a defendable position that will grant you access to speedy defenders of 'internal' affairs. (I mean that horsemen allow you to attack archer stacks with little fear of losing, cause you'll retreat a lot, and they can also run to the other side of the empire to hold a city for the incoming defenders and such.)

End of Previous Turnset Stats:

Science: Literature, 10 turns
Treasury: 29 gold, -2 gpt; 0.9.1

Cities:
Mosaic Moscow (5): grows in 3, settler in 4.
Silly St. Peteys (2): grows in 20, rArcher in 7.
Iron Hill (2) grows in 4, vSword in 3.
Rowdy Rostov (2) grows in 7, rax in 7.


Military:
01 Settlers
05 Workers
00 Scouts
04 Warriors
02 Archers
03 Spears
01 Slaves
Total units: 15 Allowed units: 16

Building List:

settler [1] (Mosaic Moscow)
rArcher [1] (Silly St. Peteys)
vSword [1] (Iron Hill)
barracks [1] (Rowdy Rostov)


I had this strategy post ready before I read what Tribute wrote.

I think it indicates that we (or at least, I) am focused more on building than fighting. Which is not the focus of this game.


Long Term Objectives

Destroy all Civs.
By 1800 AD or so.


Mid Term Objectives

Make the Hittites disappear.
Make the Babylonians disappear.
Deal with America and Germany next.


Short Term Objectivs (This turnset)

Build our fifth city close to wines in the north.
Give it a snazzy name.
Connect those wines.
MM Iron Hill to work the forest for more shields (after the Bab warrior moves).
Build at least one, maybe two settlers, from MM (depends on how well our fighting goes).
Hold onto Rowdy Rostov.
Spear from Iron Hill to Rowdy Rostov.
Spear from Mosaic Moscow to Iron Hill.
Increase happy slider after spear leaves MM.
Iron Hill makes vSwords for a while.
Rowdy Rostov makes a vSpear, if needed, otherwise a vSword.
Find work for Workers01 and 02.


I think these will need to change.

If we're going to build near the wines, let's build on the wines so we are on a hill and that will give SSP a bit of cover. It'll have access to the FP so it can grow and ought to be a good produces with those plains.

I think a mid to short term goal should also be "build a bigger army";)

@Tribute: We already have masonry--Phaedo got it from the Babs earlier, and if he hadn't, we would've researched masonry even before alphabet. We can switch the rax in RR to walls, which will be done in 2 turns. We should also be able to switch the swordsman in IH to a spear, then build walls. However, I'm not sure how many defensive losses could have been avoided with walls since none of the units that were attacked during my turnset were in cities. The settler's under the damaged spear; its purpose was to secure the wines so that we don't have to keep the lux slider too high. In retrospect, we should probably have gone for the horses first, but now we have to consider whether it's better to grab the wines now or grab the horses a few turns from now.
@CommandoBob: Don't forget about worker05 in SSP. As for settlers from MM, maybe no more than one (after we build another spear or two), and that one heads for the horses. Then units and nothing but units, except for rax and walls. It might also be necessary to rethink our research. Should we stick with lit for now or switch to math or HBR?

If we're going to build near the wines, let's build on the wines so we are on a hill and that will give SSP a bit of cover. It'll have access to the FP so it can grow and ought to be a good produces with those plains.

I thought of that earlier when all I had was a screen shot. However, looking at the game, that hill is adjacent to a volcano. So we'll build where we are, connect the city and then the wines, and then look to improve that area.

@Norton II: Next settler can head for horses; we'll use Worker01 and 02 to get the road ready. As for switching research, we have 10 turns to learn Literature, which may drop a turn or two when we add a city. If we were to switch techs, how long to learn HBR or math?

MM can produce 7 or 8 shields per turn, a spear is 20 shields (?), so a new rSpear every three turns.

Fair enough for the wines. We don't really want a Pompeii. However, if we are going to grab the horses on the hill, might we not go between the horses and the iron to deprive the Yanks?

I know it will cost extra turns for the road and give us pressure from the West but it is defensible (especially with a wall) and will save us from facing western swords for a while. reinforcing it will be a bit problematic but isn't worth the risk? I don't have much experience with this much pressure so early so the extra turn to reinforce may be a killer (I really don't know). It just seems that Abe is quite far away and not so interested in us and he would be a lot tougher if he had swords. Alternatively, if we settle the horses first, could we consider a city on the hills west of the Lake mountins? It looks like we are not going to get our Hittite kill zone but we could get one on Abe if we could afford to squeeze out the settler and escort.

We are definately in trouble down south but let's not fall prey to Germany's WWI mistake. Could SSP work on building forces for a northern/western defense while the rest of our cities fortify the south?

The second iron city won't happen for a while but if we are going to follow Tribute's advice about posting scouts (which I think is good advice), let's post them (preferably our regular archers) on the outer perimeter of the Lake Mountains. It would give the couple of units we post there both the visibility and raised ground advantage. If we reach a short term equilibrium, maybe we could send weak forces NW and replace them with stronger units. Might be impossible but it's a thought.