Hello there all you Warhammer fans out there!:)

I have decided to make this new thread as a thread dedicated to the suggesting and brainstorming of creative ideas for the Warhammer Fantasy Battles Mod for Civ 4.

Here is a link to the Bugs and development (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=182258)thread for the mod.
There are the downloads for the mod there, and also teasers, and a relatively detailed description of what is in the Mod.

Please feel free to comment on anything about the mod (but please try to keep it related to this mod;) ) and dont feel that your ideas are stupid. very few ideas can be stupid:D only if you suggest that a giant cat in a leather outfit with a macine gun would make a great hero, you might hear me saying " that was a stupid idea":D. but anything other than that, go ahead.

This said, i would like to keep this thread Warhammer fantasy related, so i would ask all of you not to post about un-warhammer fantasy related topics. this included Warhammer 40k, as the 2 are completely different games, and we are not even thinking about WH40k in this mod. :) thanks.

Also, id like to keep this thread peaceful, so please, no harsh, uncalled for ragging of other people's ideas. if you do not like an idea, just say "i dont like that idea". there is absolutely no need to get rude.

These rules are put in plase to ensure that this thread stays fun and interesting, not a place where you go to fight. some of you will know what i am talking about.

Other than that, i hope to see tonnes of ideas flowing.

Here is a list of a few things (but not all) we could do with a few ideas for:

New Leader traits. (we are looking at 3/ leader)
New Civics options.
Technology tree adgustments.
ideas for the new Magic Tree (which will only be in the distant future)
New buildings for the eraly eras.
A new method of Religion.
Religion effects
Ideas for heroes and characters.
Ideas for new units, or to rebalance old units.
ideas for wonders.
ideas for balancing the mod.
ideas to make it more original.
but most importantly, ideas to make it more FUN.

ok, i think thats all, so, get started:D

List of the new traits and what they do:

Arcane:
+10% Science

Aggressive:
free promotion (combat 1) for melee and gunpowder units.
double production speed of Barracks, drydock, siegeweapons workshop

Philosophical:
+100% greatpeople birth rate
double production speed of university

Spiritual:
no anarchy
double production speed of temples

Elementalist:
??

Agricultural:
+1 health / city
+1 food on plots with 3 food already.

Imperial:-50% Civic upkeep
+1 culture / city

Exspansive:
+2 Health / city
double production speed of granary, harbour.

Hidden:
??

Creative:
+50% great people birth rate
+1 culture / city
double production speed of bloodbowl stadium, theatre

Industrious:
+1 hammer on plots with 3 hammers already
double production speed of forge

Financial:
+1 gold on plots with 2 gold already
double production speed of bank

Defencive:
Free promotion (homeland) for recon, archery, mounted and melee units.

Friends of the woods:
+2 health / city.

Orgagnized:-50% Civic upkeep
double production speed of courthouse, lighthouse

Greenskins:-60% civic upkeep
-10% science

Seafaring:
Free promotions: (combat I, navigation I, sentry) for naval units.




List of the suggested traits and what they do:

Diplomatic (suggested by Masada)
adds + modifiers to the diplomancy bar, makes all rivals slightly happyer with you regardless of alignment?


List of racial traits and what they could do:

Dwarven racial trait: (suggested by Arexack)
-stubborn :will not forget any slight (might be better coded hidden in the diplomatic memory stats.... )
-magically inert. : 0% magicpoints generation multiplier, +2 general dispells/turn.
-tunnelling:
-units in cities count as being in a walled city. building a citywall increases defence (fortified entrances).
-specialised worker units can build tunnels, when mining is researched.
-long lived / superior constitution: +1 health in cities



Leader and their traits list:


Amazons(not in yet)

Leader1:
Traits:
Leader2:
Traits:

Arabya

Leader1:Jaffar
Traits:Elementalist, Philosophical, spiritual
Leader2:n/a
Traits:

Bretonnia

Leader1:King Louen Leoncoeur
Traits: Expansive, Organised ?
Leader2:Gilles le Breton
Traits: Spiritual, creative ?

Cathay

Leader1:Emperor Wu
Traits: Agricultural, imperial
Leader2:n/a

Empire
(suggestions thanks to Masada:))
"The empire is really just a collection of city states and states in theory it is one nation... but just flicking through the background one notices the war of 3 emperors (just prior to the great war against chaos). The destruction of the world was narrowly avoided by Magnus the pious so hes a great leader. Karl Franz is also a great leader in current warhammer... (no word for it that i can think of..) he is the current Elector Emperor as well as being Elector of Altdorf . The empire is a collection of states feudal rather than imperial the electors need only answer a call to arms from the Emperor and from my reading they can ignore it if they dont like it. To elect and Emperor there are 14? electors the 2 archlectors of Sigmar the High priest of Sigmar the High priest of Ulric? the elder of moot (Halfling) and the rest are the electors themselves. So in reality the empire isnt really a single unified state so imperialism doesnt really fit in terms of the background in terms of the game play it fits quite well "

Leader1:Emperor Magnus
Traits:

---Spiritual (the pious says it all... he was a champion of sigmar and killed Ashovar Kel ),
---Aggressive (he led the armies of the Empire and Kislev to Kislev to lift the siege of Kislev by chaos (lol that was to many Kislevs)
---Diplomatic (add + modifiers to the diplomancy bar...? (to represent he was on good terms with the Dwarves (defended Kislev city), High Elves, Kislev and Bretonnia (they sent a crusade but it was a bit late from memory))

Leader2:Emperor Karl Franz
Traits:

---Agricultural (represents the huge amount of Agricultural growth that has occured during his reign)
---Industrious (shows that the industry of the Empire is improving and the potential output is higher. During the Storm of Chaos, Nuln's furnaces were burning non stop to create cannons, mortars and hellblaster volley guns)
---Financial (the empire was during the earliest part of his reign the strongest it had been )

Estalia

Leader1:Highpriest Jose'Paul
Traits: Spiritual, seafaring
Leader2:n/a

Ind

Leader1:Moghul King Akabar
Traits: Spiritual, organised
Leader2:n/a
Traits:

Kislev

Leader1:Tzar Boris Ursus, the Red Tzar
Traits: Aggressive, Expansive
Leader2:Tzarina Katarin the Icequeen
Traits:Arcane, Elementalist

Nippon

Leader1:Emperor Takagura
Traits: Agricultural, organized
Leader2:n/a


Norsca

Leader1:Ragnar
Traits: Aggressive, Seafaring
Leader2:n/a
Traits:

Tilea

Leader1:Marco Columbo
Traits: Financial, Seafaring
Leader2:Luccini and Lucan
Traits: Spiritual, Creative, Industrious

Beastmen(not included yet)

Leader1:
Traits:
Leader2:
Traits:

Chaos

Leader1:Archaon, Lord of the End Times
Traits: Aggressive, Summoner, expansive, hidden
Leader2:n/a
Traits:

Chaos Dwarfs(not in yet)

Leader1:
Traits:
Leader2:
Traits:

Darkelves

Leader1:Malekith the Witchking
Traits: Arcane, Aggressive, Seafaring
Leader2:Morathi the Hag Queen
Traits: Aggressive, Arcane

Dwarfs

Leader1:Thorgrim Grudgebearer
Traits: Industrial, Financial,
Leader2:Baragor
Traits: Aggressive, industrious

Ogre Lords(not in yet)

Leader1:Greaseus Goldtooth
Traits:
Leader2:n/a
Traits:

Orcs

Leader1:Grimgor Ironhide
Traits: Greenskins
Leader2:Azhag the Slaughterer
Traits: Greenskins

Gobbos(not in yet)

Leader1:Grom the Paunch
Traits: Greenskins
Leader2:Skarsnik
Traits: Greenskins

Highelves

Leader1:Aenarion
Traits:
---Creative(+1 culture, 50% Great poeple),
---Defensive(isolationism?),
---Magical or spiritual?
Leader2:Finubar
Traits:
---Creative(+1 culture, 50% Great poeple),
---Seafaring,
---Financial,

Hobgoblin Hegemony(not in yet)

Leader1:
Traits:
Leader2:
Traits:

Tombkings

Leader1:Settra the Imperishable
Traits: Defensive, Imperialistic, Arcane
Leader2:Khalidar Neferher
Traits: Agricultural, Arcane, Spiritual

Lizardmen

Leader1:Mazdamundi
Traits:
Leader2:Tenehuini(not playable yet)
Traits:

Skaven(not in yet)

Leader1:Morskitter?
Traits:
Leader2:Ikit Claw?
Traits:

Sylvanians

Leader1:Vlad von Carstein
Traits: Aggressive,
Leader2: N/A
Traits:

Woodelves

Leader1:Ariel
Traits: Hidden, Friends of the Wood, Magical?
Leader2:Orion
Traits: Hidden, Friends of the Wood, Defensive

Current Religion ideas:

The 7 main religions are bold, with the possible sub religions listed benieth with the civs that they relate to next them.



Old Faiths
-The Old Faith --- The Empire, Bretonnia, Tilia, Estalia, Kislev, Norsca, Albion, Araby.
-Asuryanism / Cult of Asuryanism --- High Elves (as well as the other elves)
-Cult of Khaine --- Dark elves (as well as the other elves)
-Followers of Isha --- Wood Elves (as well as the other elves)
-Dwarven Pantheon (Morngrim/ Grungni/ Rukh)--- Dwarves
-The Old Ones --- Lizardmen, Amazonians
-Ormzad Pantheon --- Araby, Khemri(probably Khemries religion before they died), Lhamia (lhamia is a break away civ from Khemri and therefore used to have the same religion as them)
-The Indic Pantheon --- Ind

Details of the "Old Faiths" sub religions:


The "Old Faiths" Religion:
In General:
Old Faiths has a slow spread rate.
with more expensive, powerful priests than other religions.
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be more expensive, but will have stronger effects than the other religions.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Old Faith sub religion.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Old Faith sub religion. Can heal units.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Old Faiths sub religion. Can heal units.


Sub Religions:
-The Old Faith
Can only build Altars. Each Altar makes Priests and magic casters slightly cheaper, and allows all priests of the Old Faith to act as a normal mage and thus start with one free spell from any of the 8 Winds of magic.
Altars also produce +1 Magic Commerce.
The Monument gives all new priests of the Old Faith built in this city another free spell from any of the 8 Winds of magic.
---Buildings:
Altar= Coven
Temple= none
Cathedral= none
Monument= Monument of Nature
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Witch
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)---Druid
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)---Arch Druid (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-Asuryanism
All Asuryan priests have free access to the Winds of Fire as any normal fire mage would. Mage priests of Asuryan can also act as inquisitors to remove non-state religions. All Altars produce +1 happiness. Temples and cathedral also produce an additional +1 Happiness in their cities if it has access to Incense.
---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Flame
Temple= Temple of Asuryan
Cathedral= Hall of the Phoenix
Monument= The Shrine of Asuryan
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) ---Asuryan Dedicate
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priest of Asuryan
High Priest (requires Cathedral) ---Mage Priest of Asuryan (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-Cult of Khaine
units built in cities with: Altar gain +1 EXP, Temple gain +1 more EXP, Cathedral gain +1 more EXP. Priests of the Cult of Khaine are able to enslave defeated enemies. Slaves may be sacrificed in cities with Altars, Temples or Cathedral to: Rush a building, make an instant +10 Science, or to add +1 EXP to one Priest of the Cult of Khaine present In the city.
---Buildings:
Altar= The Blood Altar
Temple= Temple of Khaine
Cathedral= Hall of Murder
Monument= The Sword of Khaine
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) ---Acolyte of Khaine
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priestess of Khaine
High Priest (requires Cathedral) ---Bride of Khaine (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-Followers of Isha
All workers are unable to cut forests of clear jungle. Cities with Altar gain +1 food from forests. Cities with Temples gain +1 Happiness from forests. High Priests are able to plant forests. All High priests of the Followers of isha have the spell “Isha’s Blessing” (which is a variant of the WE spell ‘Ariel’s Blessing’) which gives the target unit ‘regeneration’ until the start of the next turn.
---Buildings:
Altar= Sacred Tree
Temple= Isha's Grove
Cathedral= Oaken Hall
Monument= The Tears of Isha
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) --- Handmaiden of Isha
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priestess of Isha
High Priest (requires Cathedral) --- High Priestess of Quyl-Isha (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-Dwarven Pantheon
cities with the: Altar gain +10% defence, Temple gain another +5% defence, +1 Science, Cathedral gain another +5% defence, +1 Science. All units built in the city with the monument have the ‘stubborn’ ability.
---Buildings:
Altar= Oath Tablet
Temple= Temple of the Dwarf Gods
Cathederal= Hall of the Elders
Monument= The Book of Grudges
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) --- Acolyte of the Dwarf Gods
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priest of the Dwarf Gods
High Priest (requires Cathedral) --- Warrior-Priest of the Dwarf Gods (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-The Old Ones
All Priests of the Old Ones are able to enslave defeated opponents. Slaves can be sacrificed in cities with the: Altar to produce an instant +10 magic commerce. Temple to produce an extra instant +10 magic commerce, Cathedral to produce an extra instant +10 Science. Mage priests of the old Ones act as a normal Mage and can choose magic from any of the Winds of magic like a normal mage.
---Buildings:
Altar= Sacrificial Altar
Temple= Temple of the old Ones
Cathederal= Pyramid Temple
Monument= The Marks of the Old Ones
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) --- Prophet of the Old Ones
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priest of the Old Ones
High Priest (requires Cathedral) --- Mage-Priest of the Old Ones (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-Ormzad Pantheon
Cities with the: Altar get +1 Happiness , Temple get +1 Happiness from Incense and priests of the Ormzad pantheon built in those cities get the ‘inquisitor’ ability, Cathedral are immune to the spread of non state religion. All priests of the Ormzad Pantheon built in cities with the Cathedral are able to summon elementals and act like normal elementalists.
---Buildings:
Altar= Obelisk to the Gods
Temple= Temple of Al-Anon
Cathedral= Al-Anon Grand Temple Complex
Monument= Al-Anon’s Garden
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) --- Ormzad Initiate
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priest of Ormzad
High Priest (requires Cathedral) --- Great Sage of Ormzad (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


-The Indic Pantheon
Altars produce +1 great People Points. Temples give + 1 Culture, Cathedrals Gain +1 gold. The Home of the Gods produces +1 Gold for every Acolyte of the Indic Pantheon. All High Priests of the Indic pantheon are able to instantly construct any of the Indic pantheon religious Buildings at the cost of being sacrificed. In doing so the indic pantheon is also spread to the chosen city.
\---Buildings:
Altar= Shrine of the Inner-Self
Temple= Temple of the Thousand
Cathedral= Hall of the Thousand
Monument= The Home of the Gods
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) --- Pilgrim of the Thousand
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priest of the Thousand
High Priest (requires Cathedral) --- Great Sage of the Thousand(World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)



Young Gods -Northen Gods (gods of winter etc)---The Empire, Kislev, Norsca, Albion
-Southern Gods (gods of plenty etc)---Bretonnia, Estalia, Tilia, Albion
-Old World Pantheon (Morr, Ulric, Rhia, Manann, Verena, Haendryk, Myrmidia, Luccan, Luccina etc) --- The Empire, Bretonnia, Tilia, Estalia, Kislev
-Norse Pantheon (Thor, Odin etc)--- Norsca, kislev, Empire for diversity?

Details of the "Young Gods" sub religions:

The "Young Gods " Religion:
In General:
Young Gods has a normal Spread rate
with normal costs and priests
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be an average cost, and will have normal effects.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Young Gods sub religion.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Young Gods sub religion. Can heal units.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Young Gods sub religion. Can heal units. Can inquisition.


Sub Religions:
-The Northern Gods
All altars, Temples and Cathedrals of the Northern Gods make Alters temples and Cathedrals of the Southern Gods unavailable in the city that they are built (meaning that one city cannot have both the Northern gods and the southern gods in it at the same time.) Altars, Temples and Cathedrals of the Northern Gods each make all units 5% cheaper to produce (military and religious).
The city with the monument becomes immune to Barbarian attacks (meaning that barbarians cannot attack the city with the northern monument)
All religious units have 1 more strength than normal religious units.

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar to the Northern Gods
Temple= Temple of the Northern Pantheon
Cathedral= Sacred Hall of the Northern Pantheon
Monument= Hall of Heavenly Protection
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Northern Fanatic
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Warrior Priest of the North
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Warrior High-Priest of the North (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


-The Southern Gods
All altars, Temples and Cathedrals of the Southern Gods make Alters temples and Cathedrals of the Northern Gods unavailable in the city that they are built (meaning that one city cannot have both the Northern gods and the Southern gods in it at the same time.) Alters, Temples and Cathedrals of the Southern Gods each produce +1 Happiness.
All Priests and high Priests of the southern gods are also able to build ‘libraries’ in cities with the Southern Gods CR at the cost of their life.
The Hall of Heavenly Bounty makes all plots of land in it’s cities radius with 2 food instead produce 3.

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar to the Southern Gods
Temple= Temple of the Southern Pantheon
Cathedral= Sacred Hall of the Southern Pantheon
Monument= Hall of Heavenly Bounty
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Southern Altar Servers
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Scholar Priest of the South
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Scholar High-Priest of the South (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


-The Old World Pantheon
All Old World Pantheon buildings produce +1 happiness if another Young Gods SR is present in the city. (cancelling out the -1 happiness from competing SR’s) all Temple Streets produce +1 gold, and Temple Districts produce +2 gold (symbolising the charitable donations by the population to the temples)
Priests are also able to inquisition.
Al Acolytes, Priests and High priests built in the city with the Seat of the Gods have one extra priest spell.

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar to the Gods
Temple= Temple Street
Cathedral= Temple District
Monument= Seat of the Gods
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Acolyte of the Gods
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Priest of the Gods
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- High Priest of the Gods (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-The Norse Pantheon
A city with a Norse Pantheon’s ‘Horgr’ is able to sacrifice an ‘animal’ to produce +1 Happyness for 5 turns. The Sacred Copse allows cities to build ‘Sacrificial Animals’ to be sacrificed at the Horgr. The Long House allows cities to build 2 kinds of High priest, a Seiokona who also acts also as a normal mage, and the Hersir, who is a strong warrior chieftain with very high moral bonuses to his stack but unable to inquisition. The Shamaness and Volva act also as weak mages.
The Valhalla makes all religious units built in the city start with one extra priest spell.

---Buildings:
Altar= Hörgr
Temple= Sacred Copse
Cathedral= Long House
Monument= Valhalla
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Shamaness
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Völva
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Seiðkona and Hersir (World Unit, can only have 3 of each at a time)


Dark Children
-Cult of Nagash /Veneration of Nagash / Pogrency of Nagash? --- Khemri, Lhamia, Sylvania
-The Horned Rat --- Skaven
-Gods of the Dark Forge? (better name?) --- Chaos Dwarves
-Mark of Blood? Blood Cult? The Bloodless? --- Lhamia, Sylvania.

Details of the "Dark Children" sub religions:


The "Dark Children" Religion:
In General:
Dark Children has a Normal Spread rate
with expensive costs of priests
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be an High cost, and will have Good effects.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Dark Children sub religion.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Dark Children sub religion. Can heal units.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Dark Children sub religion. Can heal units. Can inquisition.


Sub Religions:
-The Veneration of Nagash
The Bone Pillar increases the heal rate of Undead units in and adjacent to the city, but decreases the heal rate of living units in and adjacent to the city.
The Temple of Skulls allows all religious units produced in the city to have access to one more spell from The Winds of Death magic.
Units can be sacrificed in cities with a Great Crypt Hall in it to produce an Undead unit (different undead unit depends on sacrificed unit ie sacrificed melee unit = Undead Swordman unit, sacrificed ranged unit = Undead Bowman unit, sacrificed mage unit = Undead Necromancer, mounted sacrifice = Undead Horseman)
These units all have the ‘Bound’ promotion, which means these units must stay within the cultural boarders of cities with Bone Pillars in them. In addition, Acolytes can build tile improvements called a ‘Necromancer’s Tower’ which expand the area that undead built in this way can traverse by 3 squares in each direction.
Priests start with 1 death spell and High Priests start with 2 death spells.
All undead and religious units built in the city with Nagashizzar in it gain the ‘Drain Life’ promotion which allows them to restore their health when they attack.

---Buildings:
Altar= Bone Pillar
Temple= Temple of Skulls
Cathedral= Great Crypt Hall
Monument= Nagashizzar
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Cultist of Nagash
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Dedicate of Nagash
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Great Follower of Nagash (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)





- The Horned Rat
The Great Bells of the Horned Rat creates sounds of pitches which, when heard vary to cause a feeling of happieness in followers of the Horned rat, and in non-skavens, a feeling of woe. Thus, cities with the Great belfry gain +1 Happiness. Cities with a Bell Temple, make enemy units in that cities cultural boarders have 25% less moral, and cities with Chapels of the 13 Bells prevent the building of non Horned Rat sub Religions, and the entering of non Horned Rat religious units into the city, as the sound of the 13 bells ringing constantly causes non believers to cringe in fear and go insane.
The religious units of the Horned rat can travel undetected in enemy lands, and thus can pass cultural boarders at will without causing war. Seers of the Horned Rat also are able to build Screaming Bell tile improvements, which also decrease the moral of non believers within 2 squares of them an additional 15%. Great Seers can spend a few turns to ‘build’ a “Doombell” siege unit. This acts the same as a catapult, but decreases the moral of units attacked a random amount each time. The Doombells act as ‘cargo’ for the Great Seers to ‘carry’ (its actually the other way around) and as such, Doombells MUST stay with Great Seers.

---Buildings:
Altar= Great Belfry
Temple= Bell Temple
Cathedral= Chapel of the 13 Bells
Monument= The Temple of the Horned Rat
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Prophet of the Horned Rat
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Seer of the Horned Rat
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Great Seer of the Horned Rat (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


-The Blood Cult
The Blood Shrine Heals all Vampiric units to full health when they stay in the city for 1 turn. The Blood House enables Blood Pets to be sacrificed to distribute 1 point of those Blood pet’s EXP randomly amongst the Vampires present in the city. The Hall of Blood Rights grants all units built in the city the ‘Vampirism I’ promotion, making them classified as a ‘Vampire.’ these units gain EXP faster, and are able to spread vampirism to those they defeat by creating ‘sub vampire’ 15% of the time, units called Blood Pets, also with the ‘Vampirism I’ promotion. All religious units have the ‘Vampirism’ promotion, but:
Vampire Initiates have the ‘Vampirism I’ promotion (classified as a Vampire, faster EXP gaining, 10% spawning of Blood Pet from victims)
Vampire Priestess’ have the ‘Vampirism II’ promotion (classified as a Vampire, faster EXP gaining, 25% spawning of Blood Pet from victims)
Vampire Queens have the ‘Vampirism III’ promotion (classified as a Vampire, faster EXP gaining, 50% spawning of Blood Pet from victims)

---Buildings:
Altar= Blood Shrine
Temple= Blood House
Cathedral= Hall of Blood Rights
Monument= The Blood Soaked Throne
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Vampire Initiate
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Vampire Priestess
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Vampire Queen (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

- Gods of the Dark Forge
The Chaos Anvil adds +2 hammers to it’s city. The Black Vaults add +2 gold to its city, and also give units produced there the ‘Dark Armour’ promotion (increased defence on all terrain, and bonus Vs Dwarves) the Catacombs of the Dark Ones add +2 Science and +2 magic commerce to the city, it also produces one dispel scroll each turn, which then ‘dies’ at the end of the turn.
The Acolyte of the Dark Forge acts as a Sorcerer normally would, and starts with 1 spell from any wind of magic.
The Priest of the Dark Forge acts as a Sorcerer normally would, and starts with 2 spells from any wind of magic.
The High-Priest of the Dark Forge acts as a Sorcerer normally would, and starts with 3 spells from any wind of magic.

---Buildings:
Altar= Chaos Anvil
Temple= Black Vaults
Cathedral= Catacombs of the Dark Ones
Monument= The Dark Forge
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Acolyte of the Dark Forge
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Priest of the Dark Forge
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- High-Priest of the Dark Forge (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)



Chaos Cults
-Nurgle --- Chaos, Beastmen
-Tzeentch ---Chaos, Beastmen
-Khorne---Chaos, Beastmen
-Slaanesh---Chaos, Beastmen, Dark Elves
-Chaos Undivided---Chaos, Beastmen, Chaos Dwarves


Details of the "Chaos Cults" sub religions:


The "Chaos Cults" Religion:
In General:
Chaos Cults has a Fast Spread rate
with Expensive priests
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be an very High cost, and will have very Good effects.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Chaos Cults sub religion. Can capture defeated enemies as slaves.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Chaos Cults sub religion. Can heal units. Can capture defeated enemies as slaves.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Chaos Cults sub religion. Can heal units. Can inquisition. Can capture defeated enemies as slaves.


Sub Religions:
- Nurgle
Cities with a Nurgle Altar can sacrifice slaves to give one random non deamon unit in the city the “Gift of Nurgle” Promotion (which allows that unit a 20% chance to create a Nurgling from it’s defeated enemies.
The Temple of Nugle allows its city to build Nurglings.
The Hall of Infection allows its city to build Plague Bearers with the ‘Gift of Nurgle’ promotion.
Nurgle Cultists can cast 1 spell from the Nurgle Spells list, Disciples of Nurgle can cast 1 spell from the Nurgle Spells list, Lord-Priests of Nurgle can cast 2 spells from the Nurgle Spells list.
The infernal Pit of Contagion automatically produces a great Unclean One every 80 turns (The Great Unclean One is a world unit)

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Plague
Temple= Temple of Nurgle
Cathedral= Hall of Infection
Monument= Infernal Pit of Contagion
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Nurgle Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Disciple of Nurgle
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Lord-Priest of Nurgle (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Tzeentch
Cities with a Tzeentch Altar can sacrifice slaves to give one random non deamon unit in the city the “Gift of Tzeentch” Promotion (which allows that unitto cast one spell from the Tzeentch magic list).
The Temple of Tzeentch allows its city to build Screamers of Tzeentch. (cause fear)
The Hall of Alteration allows its city to build Horrors of Tzeentch
Tzeentch Cultists can cast 2 spells from the Tzeentch Spells list, Disciples of Tzeentch can cast 3 spell from the Tzeentch Spells list, Lord-Priests of Tzeentch can cast 4 spells from the Tzeentch Spells list.
The Spire of Shifting Chaos automatically produces a Lord of Change every 80 turns (The Lord of Change is a world unit)

Altar= Altar of Change
Temple= Temple of Tzeentch
Cathedral= Hall of Alteration
Monument= Spire of Shifting Chaos
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Tzeentch Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Disciple of Tzeentch
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Lord-Priest of Tzeentch (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Khorne
Cities with a Khorne Altar can sacrifice slaves to give one random non deamon unit in the city the “Gift of Khorne” Promotion (which makes that unit Lust for Blood, and as such gains a movement bonus and strength bonus of 1 for the rest of the game).
The Temple of Khorne allows its city to build Flesh Hounds of Khorne.
The Hall of Blood allows its city to build Bloodletters.
Khorne rAcolytes, Priests and high priests cannot cast any Priest spells or any other spell, and cannot be affected by the Gift of Tzeentch promotion. They do however gain +1, +2, and +3 strength respectively.
The Blood Palace of Skulls automatically produces a Bloodthirster every 80 turns (The Bloodthirster is a world unit)

Altar= Altar of War
Temple= Temple of Khorne
Cathedral= Hall of Blood
Monument= Blood Palace of Skulls
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Khorne Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Disciple of Khorne
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Lord-Priest of Khorne (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Slaanesh
slaves can be sacrificed at the Slaanesh Altar to create a miasma of intoxicating Musk over the city for 5 turns. While this ‘musk’ is in play, all enemy units adjacent to the city are affected by the “stupidity” rule.
The Temple of Slaanesh allows its city to build Daemonettes of Slaanesh.
The Hall of Pleasure allows its city to build Daemonettes on Steeds of Slaanesh.
(both Slaaneshi Deamons have the ‘gift of Slaanesh’ promotion, which gives them an extra first strike, and +1 movement, as well as a 20% chance of seducing a defeated enemy and produce a slave.)
Slaanesh Acolytes, Priests and high priests can cast 1, 2, and 3 spells from the Magic of Slaanesh respectively.
The Harem of Eternal lust automatically produces a Keeper of Secrets every 80 turns (The Keeper of Secrets is a world unit)

Altar= Altar of Desires
Temple= Temple of Slaanesh
Cathedral= Hall of Pleasure
Monument= Harem of Eternal lust
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Slaanesh Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Disciple of Slaanesh
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Lord-Priest of Slaanesh (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Chaos Undivided
All Chaos Undivided buildings produce +1 happiness if another Chaos Cults SR is present in the city. (cancelling out the -1 happiness from competing SR’s) however, all chaos undivided buildings add a cumulative +15% building time to all non Chaos undivided temples and religious units and deamons.
Cities with a Chaos Undivided Altar can sacrifice slaves to give one random non deamon unit in the city the “Gift of Chaos” Promotion (turning it into one random level 1 deamon of any of the 4 Chaos Gods).
The Chaos Temple allows its city to sacrifice deamons to gain 1 population
The 8 Halls of Chaos allows its city to sacrifice slaves to gain +15 instant Magic commerce.
All chaos undivided religious units act exactly as spys, except that instead of espionage, they can convert enemy cities without declaring war.
The Chaos Void automatically produces a Daemon Prince every 80 turns (The Daemon Prince is a world unit)

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Chaos
Temple= Chaos Temple
Cathedral= 8 Halls of Chaos
Monument= The Chaos Void
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Chaos Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Chaos Priest
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Chaos Mutant-Priest (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)



Gods of Law-Cult of Celestial Dragon --- Cathay (Possibly nippon as well?)
-Jintoism --- Nippon (Possibly Cathay as well?)
-Ormazd Pantheon --- Araby, Khemri
-Sigmar --- Empire


Mortal Gods.
-Lady of the Lake --- Bretonnia
-Sigmar --- The Empire
-Ursin --- Kislev
-Cult of Celestial Dragon --- Cathay (they worship their emperors as gods)


Barbaric Gods-Orcs (Gork and Mork)
-Gobbos (Gork and Mork)
-Hobgoblin Hegemony (Worship of the Great Khans?)
-Ogre Lords (The Great Maw)

My current idea for the Religion system:

so, there are the 7 core religions:
-Old Faiths
-Young Gods
-Dark Children
-Chaos Cults
-Gods of Law
-Mortal Gods.
-Barbaric Gods
these all act EXACTLY the same way that normal religions work.
however, these core religions have no temples or priests allocated to them until the civ researches one of the techs that gives access to the many sub religions. i will use the Old Faiths religion as an example:

Ok, so i found the "Old Faiths" in my second city. simple. the old faiths, because its major religious characteristics are that it has a slower spread rate than the other religions, will spread slower (duh). this is pretty crappy until the civ researches one of the 8 techs which allow them to build temples and priests of a certain sub religion.
so next i research the tech which gives me access to "The Followers of isha" sub religion, which in turn allows me to build the Isha specific buildings
-Altar (Sacred Tree),
-Temple (Isha's Grove)
-Cathedral (Oaken Hall)
-Monument (The Tears of Isha),
and the isha specific Priests:
-Acolyte (Handmaiden of Isha),
-Priest (Priestess of Isha),
-High Priest (High Priestess of Quyl-Isha)

however, for the sub religion to be initiated, (ie before the civ can build any of the sub religion's temples or priests), they must first build the monument in a city with the Core Religion, in this case the Tears of Isha must be built in my second city as none of my others have the Old Faiths religion.
once the monument is built, altars can be built in all cities, which also give access to the acolyte, in this case my Handmaidens of Isha. i must build 3 altars before i can start building temples, which means i must expand my empire 1 more city and build an Altar in it. (temples can only be built in cities with an Altar already in them) then i can start building my Temples which allow me to build the Priests, in this case the Priestess of Isha. once i have 3 Temples i can do the same with Cathedrals, (which can also only be built in cities with a temple already in them.) which give access to the High Priests, or my High Priestess of Quyl-Isha.

the temples specific to the Followers of isha religion will have different effectes to those from the Dwarven Pantheon, or the Cult of Khaine. as you can see in my above post. the priests will also be different, with different abilities and magical capabilities, (but with the same base stats or movement and attack)

i was hoping that these sub religions will greatly diversify the religions capabilities, albiet it will make a heck of a lot more work for us. it seems sound to me, but there is just the issue of converting to a different sub religion. i haven't been able to come up with any decent ideas for that.

Did that make sense:confused:




Inquisitors: All High Priests have the "Forced Conversion" promotion, which enables them to 'sacrifice' themselves to gradually remove the buildings from all SR other than their own (1 turn for Altar, 2 turn for temple, 3 turns for Cathedral) and each turn spent dismantling the heathen's temples produces one more cumulative unhappyness which lasts untill all heathen SR asre gone and order is restored. a new mini icon will be seen in the info bar of the city showing how many turns of purging is left. (similar to the timer after a city is captured, but without the culture loss.)

Need to make each main religion unique, with unique effects/ techs/ buildings etc.
Need to decide where religions will be regarding the tech and magic trees.
Need to alter the spread rate of different religions.
Need to make each sub religion unique with uniqe units and buildings.

... and this one :blush:

Yoink! I may as well steal a spot to post new units.

People remember, the ideas actualy have to be feasible no "I want to have to speak down a microphone to be able to cast my spells". Actualy, that would be pretty cool.

i was having a think about leader traits just now, and i came to the conclusion that they are very boring. there isnt any diversity amongst leaders within a civ. take woodelves and high elves for example. both orion and ariel have the same traits, and yet i see them as polar opposites of each other. go figure. and finubar and aenarion are also opposites.
Ariel and Finubar are more peaceful, where as orion and aenaron are more aggressive.

what do other people think. does anyone agree?

I totally agree, the whole point of having several leaders is to have different traits to be able to play in different ways. But its nice for fluff and atmosphere too.
(I havent remarked on this before as I saw the leaders as placeholders and assumed the traits be different in later updates much like the missing text keys)

When playing HE I really missed the Reaver Knights in the early era.
As of now the Horse archers have to do all my dirty work.
Reavers should have high withdrawal chance (elven steeds + fire and flee rule).
I guess the only reason they are not in game is because no one has made graphics for them yet, right?

Concerning the tech tree Id like to see Astronomy earlier in the tree (somehow). Too often I find my armies just standing on my side of some ocean having nothing to do because I dont have that tech.
Is fewer prereqs. or lower cost the way to go?
Besides its silly you need Cannons to make Galleons and Frigates if you are elves for example as they arent using them. Separate ship tech for elves maybe?

Let see, I like to see some nice City Graphics transformation after converstion of a religion, just like what Fall from Heaven have. Now I have Warhammer 40K, and i want to know... is it true that people believe in the emperor like a religion and not believe in the gods that the human worship? I know the chaos believe in the chaos gods religion in 40K. I also found out that the orcs don't believe in any of their gods at all cause they are too interested in the lust for war and battle cause it's their pride. I have not read any of the warhammer books except Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War Ascension, so i don't know much of the warhammer storyline.

If we are making this game based on the books and games as well,then we need to make it relistically just like in the book as well.

neener, this is only the thread for new ideas. go here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=182258 for anything else.

Well since P_L was also asking for new unit ideas I thought it might be pertinent to update the early posts with any of those units I made/make so people don't all suggest the same things. But alright, I won't.

I wouldn't have posted at all but I had nothing else to really say. I accepted quite a while ago that this was someone else's mod and wasn't ever going to turn out how I'd ideally wish it to.

@ neener: no neener, thats fine, really. keep your first post as a unit workshop. like you say, it will show people what we have already decided or not.:)

@ Heruwulfar: well, the way i see the reavers is that they are more advanced than ordinary ancient horse archers. personally i think they belong in the second age, the age of magic.(even though they are not magical). however, here is a list of most of the High elven units and what era they are in, so see if you can figure out a better way, but im not promising anything:)

Worker: Highelf Worker
Ancient Warrior: Highelven Warrior
Ancient Spearman: Highelven Spearman
Ancient Archer: Highelven Archer
Ancient Axeman: Highelven Axeman
Ancient Swordman: Highelven Swordsman
Shaman: Highelven Shamaness
Horse-Archer: High Elven Horse-Archer
Catapult
Chariot: Tiranoc Chariot
Monster I: Pegusus
Scout: Elven Scout
Galley

Age of Magic
Citizen: Citizen-Soldier (Can Upgrade to Lothern Sea Guard as well as militia units)
Militia Spearman: High Elf Spearman
Militia Archer: High Elf Archer
Militia Swordsman: High Elf Swordsman
Light Knight: Ellyrion Reavers
Hedge-Wizard: High Elven Hedge-Wizard
Bolt-Thrower
War Chariot: Tiranoc War Chariot
Monster II: Griffon
Explorer: High Elven Explorer
Caravel: Hawkship

Age of Discovery
Royal Guard: White Lions of Chrace
Pikemen: Phoenix Guard
Longbow: NONE, get Swordmasters of Hoeth
Crossbow- NONE, replaced by Sea Guard
Heavy Knight- Silverhelms
Wizard
Cannon:NONE, replaced by Repeater Bolt Thrower
Galleon: Eagleship
Frigate: Dragonship

Mechanical Age
Cavalry: NONE, get Dragonprinces instead
Musketman: NONE, replaced by Shadow Warriors in the Age of Discovery
Monster III: Emperor Dragon
Ironclad: NONE, replaced by Merwyrm
Special Unit: High Elven Sorcerer


@ Darkedone: if you look in my sig i am currently making unique city art for all the races. so far i have finished the woodelves, and am 3/4 the way throug the highelves. i have also made a start on the dark elves, (but they are very difficult:() so i expect you could see it in the game in the future, after i have done several races.
i personally dont thing city art change every religion change should be in WH. thats a unique FfH attribute, and i dont think we should steal that from them too:)
Also, we are trying to make the mod as accurate as we can with the armybooks for Warhammer fantasy (Darkedone, please take note that Warhammer fantasy and Warhammer 40K are 2 TOTALLY separate games and the lore for both are different. because of this, i would apreciate it if you asked your 40k related questions in a 40k related thread. i forgot to mention that in the first post.:) please dont do it again;))

EDIT: i have added a list of leaders and traits in the second post. i think we need to rework alot of them :(

@P_L: So there will be a unique Horse archer for the HE (and other races?) with custom graphics and all? If so it would feel more like a pre-reaver unit and I would be more than satisfied :D
Thought of what unit the Reavers would replace (H archer or L knight) and I think you have made the right choise.

BTW how come you can use Sonne in the intro, surely it must be under some copyright or another or how does that work?

From first page of main forum: "-Every unit will be UU"
I guess that answers my first question :mischief:

How about having 3 traits per Leader?
One would be the race trait - all leaders of that race would have have this trait (so all elvish leaders share 1 trait, all human leaders, all greenskin leaders...)

One would be a normal trait, similar to those in vanilla but different

One would be a negative trait. This would make it fun as you would have leaders with a very good positive trait, and an awful bad trait and you could have another leader with two so-so traits, making it balanced. It would also be easier to come up with ideas for traits if some of them are negative.

I wouldn't have posted at all but I had nothing else to really say. I accepted quite a while ago that this was someone else's mod and wasn't ever going to turn out how I'd ideally wish it to.
Well you can allways say what you like to see in the mod, you're a teammember after all so I'd say this should be "your" mod as well-meaning ours I hope;)

hey people, i just wanted to say i like this mod very much and i'm looking forward for the warlords version

as it's a mod based primarily on units, maybe would be cool to incorporate the mod component from total realism (i don't know the exact name of this component) that brings this "unit support" thing, you know, units on the same stack support each other, melee units give some bonus to other units on the same stack, siege units another kind of bonus, and so on ...

cheers

Well you can allways say what you like to see in the mod, you're a teammember after all so I'd say this should be "your" mod as well-meaning ours I hope;)

Well, all I meant was that when I first joined the team I was going to ask you all whether you'd envisioned the mod being either a Civ 4 game set in the Warhammer universe, or a Warhammer game set in the Civ 4 game engine. If you see what I mean by that. Personally I think I'd rather see the latter, with a clear focus on one particular time period and the intricacies of combat rather than stretching it out over thousands of year's of empire-building. To put it another way, if you've played Firaxis' Chinese Unification mod from Warlords, that's almost exactly how I envisioned the mod working.

But I think I'm in the minority with that. I mean, after all, I imagine this forum has more Civ fans than Warhammer fans! So I quickly resigned myself to being a worker rather than an ideas man. And as I've said before, once the mod is working as a normal 'vanilla'-style Civ mod, there's no reason we can't make scenarios that work like the Chinese Unification later. :)

Yep, that shouldn't be no problem at all and it's even part of the design. Also we need to get this mod more scenariofriendly imo. Because of that the techtree will probably have to be revised. I want it to roughly represent Warhammerhistory in order to have it easily plugable for scenariomakers for different eras. Any idea how to achieve that and keep a normal longtimescale fun to play at the same time would be highly appreciated.

@ Olleus: i agree with you here. 1 racial trait, 1 positive trait, and 1 negative trait per leader would be great. what do everyone else think? if we all agree, then we might as well start thinking up traits and what they do:)

@ neener and ploe: i think scenarios would be brilliant. but that would be somwthing for the future wouldnt it?

@ vicentiko: well, we have support fire for archers and other ranged units, like in Civ 3, where the archers in the stack attack the enemy before the combat starts. but i think that would alos be a good addition. do we have that planned Ploe?

About the total realism. Is it Dales Combat Mod? If so I'd say no. That Modcomp is nice but won't work well together with our design.
Scenarios are of course future stuff but the basic mod will be made allways with making scenarios in mind. The complete list of civs will i.e. depend largly on a good worldmap when we finally get one. And I can imagine designing special abilities for civs depending on the environment they start in WH-World.
About traits my opinion is that we shouldn't stick to a fixed number. We just have to make sure it gets balanced. Example civ 1 get two positive traits. civ 2 gets three positive and one negative, civ 3 gets one positive, one powerful and one negative etc.
I know balancing gets harder that way but we have more freedom to design civs flavourful and for the balancing we have the communityplayers after all- giving feedback about it I hope.

On the civics change as well, i wonder if you are going to add in health, education, and other things that are not in there as well.

well, i think we were only going to have a few civic options, namely:

Government

Military

Labor

Economy

Religion

Knowledge

I wonder if there will be a new mod component that allows you to see what any of your citys been doing like a newspaper article. See if there was any recent things going on and see who got assassainated... even reports of dead empires and gone to war... I like to see some letter articles of this.

well, i think we were only going to have a few civic options, namely:

Government

Military

Labor

Economy

Religion

Knowledge

That is good, are you going to place in some religious things in there for only that empire? something like a special civic for that race that only they could use, other people cannot use that cause it's invisible to them and they don't have what they have.

I think we were planning on having some civ specific civics if thats what you mean. i think olleus wanted one called 'Teefs' under economy for the Orcs:)

About the newspaper thing, i dont think we will do that. i notice you have posted this in heaps of different mod threads and you have already mentioned it to us:p but you probably just forgot;)
Personally, i think that newspaper would be too much effort for something that would give the player minor enjoyment. (plus i dont think that newspapers would really fit the warhammer world;))
However, thats not to say that if YOU manage to get it working, then we may consider it. but thats a really big 'may':p

We started discussing the dwarfs in the private forum a couple of days ago, and i wanted to see if anyone here has any ideas about them.

Hey guys just my 2 bob worth on the traits

High elves:

High elves are from my reading of the background not very creative, they were but their society is now stagnant. They have hardly changed since the old ones left the world they have not needed to create much of what was needed... since alot of what they had the old ones had given them

Seafaring i would recomend highly you need only look at the world map for Warhammer to notice exactly where they had inhabbited prior to the war of the beard and their rather big fall from grace...

Aenarion from memory was the first of the Phoneix kings and Finubar was called the Seafarer so in line with my own thinking...

Leader 1: Aenarion (old school elf)
Traits: Spiritual (elves are deeply religous but in a different way to humans.. long life plays a part) , Defensive (isolationism would be a better word for this) , Seafaring (prior to the war of the beard they had colonies everywhere and still maintain a very powerful fleet)

Leader 2: Finubar
Traits: Seafaring (Finubar was the first Phoneix king to let human traders trade directly with Ulthanlan), Financial (this goes hand in hand with Seafaring Ulthanlan is a very rich place with vast amounts of natraul resources), Philosophical perhaps (elves have a lot of time on their hands...)
Leader 3: Techilis and Tyrion (spelling, and not sure of response...)

Empire:

The empire is really just a collection of city states and states in theory it is one nation... but just flicking through the background one notices the war of 3 emperors (just prior to the great war against chaos). The destruction of the world was narrowly avoided by Magnus the pious :) so hes a great leader. Karl Franz is also a great leader in current warhammer... (no word for it that i can think of..) he is the current Elector Emperor as well as being Elector of Altdorf :king:. The empire is a collection of states feudal rather than imperial the electors need only answer a call to arms from the Emperor and from my reading they can ignore it if they dont like it. To elect and Emperor there are 14? electors the 2 archlectors of Sigmar the High priest of Sigmar the High priest of Ulric? the elder of moot (Halfling) and the rest are the electors themselves. So in reality the empire isnt really a single unified state so imperialism doesnt really fit in terms of the background in terms of the game play it fits quite well :)

Leader 1: Magnus the pious
Traits: Spiritual (the pious says it all... he was a champion of sigmar and killed Ashovar Kel :eek:) Aggressive (he led the armies of the Empire and Kislev to Kislev to lift the siege of Kislev by chaos (lol that was to many Kislevs) and he won a resounding victory and made the wastes a bit safer for a while :D , just a suggestion would it be possible to have a trait that would add + modifiers to the diplomancy bar...? (to represent he was on good terms with the Dwarves (defended Kislev city), High Elves, Kislev and Bretonnia (they sent a crusade but it was a bit late from memory)

Leader 2: Karl Franz
Traits: Agricultural (represents the huge amount of Agricultural growth that has occured during his reign), Industrious (shows that the industry of the Empire is improving and the potential output is higher. During the Storm of Chaos, Nuln's furnaces were burning non stop to create cannons, mortars and hellblaster volley guns) Financial (the empire was during the earliest part of his reign the strongest it had been :king:)

Leader 3: Sigmar/Valten not sure what you think about that...

Thats my 2 bobs worth would be happy to supply any infomation you wish i have a great memory and have read a scary amount of the background

Next installment Darkelves and Lizardmen very happy with what you have done with the mod keep at it hope this load of drivel :crazyeye: helps

Of course Rhye style civilization bonuses would really be cool Industrious giving bonuses to building units of X amount of sheilds would rock :king: etc keep at it

Hey Masada, i think that was a little more than 2 bobs:p

I like many of your suggestions, especially for the empire.

For aenarion, what do you think about arcane? i mean, he was the first phoenix king, but he was also technically a demi-god. he also agreed to let the highelf sorceres cast the vortex spell which drained the world of its excess magic and made ulthuan stabe again.

also, what do you mean high elves arnt creative :crazyeye: they seem the most cultured out of any race in the warhammer world to me. sure the old ones gave them stuff, but they kept on being cultured even after they left.

about the third leaders: i think we are only going to hev 2 leaders / civ for now. maybe later down the road we can add more, but for now i think its just 2:) but that said, teclis, tyrion, sigmar and valten are all going to be heroes (uber units) in the game, so they will still get a representation.

i agree with all your suggestions on the empire, and i will put them in the second post.

thanks for the great feed back, and id love to hear more of that "drivel" as you put it :lol:

There is a difference between culture and just being cultured... the high elves are not just in ivory towers they live in ivory skyscrappers.. their culture hasnt changed since the old ones left the world they are trapped in time unable to adapt and completly unwilling to. They are cultured by comparison to all the other races but they havent progressed.

Aenarion should be arcane and hopefully when you impliment a functioning magic system it would benifit that :) really arcane giving science is a bit funny to me but i can understand why that is in there for game terms. Maybe remove defensive (isolationism)

And thanks Psychic_Llamas for the encouragement been reading the previous forums with a bit of a frown but thats been turned upside down keep at it :king:

Aggressive:
free promotion (combat 1) for melee and gunpowder units.
double production speed of Barracks, drydock, siegeweapons workshop

Split into different traits... State military moral bonus to melee when introduced, range units first strike, artillery should have better bombard cavalry combat 1 and flanking

Used by Empire to lazy to rewrite it properly after my comp died right before i was going to post... but civilized nations

Warlike: Melee combat 1 & 2 Cavalry combat 1 and flanking

Used by Chaos etc both of these hopefully would make the fighting styles a bit different when attacked by Chaos in force Kislev should retreat behind its walls and wait for its allies to help it.. Chaos should try and lure them out and then beat them senseless a bit more like the background

Arcane:
+10% Science (cheaper mages and spells when introduced)

Philosophical:
+100% greatpeople birth rate
double production speed of university (+ modifier to like minded nations and - to non like minded nations)

Spiritual:
no anarchy
double production speed of temples (cheaper priests Warrior priests of Sigmar, Death guard of Morr etc)

Elementalist: Arabia only?
?? cheaper elementals (arabia uses them alot) and extra food from desert squares

Agricultural:
+1 health / city
+1 food on plots with 3 food already.
(cheaper peasants and the ability to raise militia 1 or 2 strength but guerilla 1 & 2 and if possible tie them to the national borders they wouldnt leave the country, acts like conscription but doesnt cost pop and doesnt cause unhappyness spawn on a regular turn count)

Imperial:-50% Civic upkeep
+1 culture / city (replace scout with a pioneer some worker abilities road building fort building and maybe clear forest..? same movement)

Exspansive:
+2 Health / city
double production speed of granary, harbour. (cheaper working boats and cheaper workers?)

Hidden:
?? (some units are hidden and able to move through no ROP nations but return to your land if war is declared... (wood elves moving from enclave to enclave)


Creative:
+50% great people birth rate
+1 culture / city
double production speed of bloodbowl stadium, theatre (better high level weapons cheaper or something requires a certain type of perverse creativity to create a steam tank or a hellblaster volley gun)

Industrious:
+1 hammer on plots with 3 hammers already
double production speed of forge (better movement on roads)

Financial:
+1 gold on plots with 2 gold already
double production speed of bank (

Defencive:
Free promotion (homeland) for recon, archery, mounted and melee units. PERFECT!! of course Isolationism sounds better to me AHAHAHAHAHA


Friends of the woods:
+2 health / city. better attack when attacking into woods and better defense

Orgagnized:-50% Civic upkeep
double production speed of courthouse, lighthouse (cheaper unit maintinance)

Greenskins:-60% civic upkeep
-10% science (unit cost what unit cost i want horde armies)

Seafaring:
Free promotions: (combat I, navigation I, sentry) for naval units. PERFECT

Of course these wont all be possible to impliment next installment of Masada Rant is Lizardmen and Darkelves... thats if i dont get sidetracked and think of anything else to add to the traits, Religion and civics look pretty to many choices.....NOOOOOOOO

Other traits.. something along the line of

constant war (reduce shield count on units and upkeep cost)

Sacred spawnings (lizardmen) X amount of turns lizardmen elite units spawn from buidlings... since the slann dont really control the spawnings they just spawn.. Skinks however could be built

Civ ideas... (for Warhammer Map)

Skaven: in line with skavenness would it be possible to allow them to build cities in mountains and swamps/marshes and for their units to be hidden? there food would also come from those combine that with hidden culture borders (if possible) and that would a really fun civ to play

Will if time permits have a bit of a go at making a map for warhammer would involve most likely twisting an existing map of the world with an enlarged Europe (Warhammer map is really just our world a bit more gothic)

That could also apply to dwarfs in the background alot of their food comes from inside or around the mountains very few dwarf cities are built in the lowlands there borders would be open to see and it might make them a bit more difficult to attack...?

I would also propose to combine Chaos+Norsca into a single civ and give them 2 settlers at the start for both starting areas... while the Norse are not really chaosy they still worship it and the difference is minimal. Chaos should really also be locked at war with the Empire, Kislev, High elves and Darkelves of course this would offset by there traits (yet to be made) and there position in game

Orcs should also be locked at war with everyone and really strectching it i would be possible to unite goblins and hobgoblins under the single civ Orcs and Goblins? would reduce civ count and make life a fair bit more interesting and would offset the fact they are at war with everyone

the Empire and Kislev could also be locked at peace representing there special relationship with each other

impressive list:)

Im a little confused as to what you mean when you say Aggressive should be split into two. why? and what benefit would two traits serve?

I was hoping for arcane to give all magical units built the ability to start of with a free spell, or experience. and also having cheeper mages and spells would be good.

I personally think philosophical should not be touched. 100% great people points is uber powerful, and if we add extra diplomatic relations to it, it will be the ultimate trait.;)

i think spiritual should actually DO something. i never liked the no anarchy 'bonus', it seems too small a benifit. perhaps making all religious base buildings and wonders, and units double speed would be good.

I think elementalist would be good for araby, but also for katarin of Kislev, as she is the Ice Queen of kislev. so perhaps a benefit from desert, ice, ocean, and mountain tiles would be good, representing the power they have over the elments of earth air fire and water.

i like your ideas on agricultural. perhaps we could make peasants able to build farms as a side bonus too.

good idea for the pioneer for imperial.:)

i dont know what you mean with what you said about hidden, sorry :sad:

I think creative should stay 50% great people and +1 culture, and then have another trait called "INVENTIVE" which makes better high level weapons cheaper or something, which requires a certain type of perverse creativity to create a steam tank or a hellblaster volley gun. would be good for dwarves, chaos dwarves and empire.

can you explain why you think defensive should be isolationism? personally i think that should be a civic, not a trait.

I agree that greenskins should have a reduced unit cost.

perhaps 'constant war' would be better being combined in with a warfare civic instead.

Im not sure about sacred spawnings, that dosnt sound like a trait, :p



About the skaven, i agree with you, i would love to see skaven as a playable civ, but i think they will be one of the last to be implemeted.:(


Keep the great ideas flowing :thumbsup:

erg just lost my 2 pages of a reply... something went wrong when i went to post it.... will type it up tommorow

erg just lost my 2 pages of a reply... something went wrong when i went to post it.... will type it up tommorow scrap that i will type a bit quickly

arcane: i agree it should
should be a trait called Scientific (not a great deal of warhammer tech is magical in origin)
philosophical : your right about that
spiritual: should also aid in building priests (Death guard of Morr anyone, Warrior priests of Sigmar, Priests of Taal, Bear Priests or Ursun and Slaan mage priests need i say more...
elementalist: would also be great for Lizardmen they sunk a full fleet of Cathayan war junks with a typhoon might help with jungle issues...
agricultural: yeah
imperial: should compliment the base ability
hidden: allows a unit to move through players land they dont have right of passage with and they should be hidden like a spy or at least some units (Wood elves, Beastmen, Amazons and Skaven in looking at you..) Wood elves have settlements in Drakwald Forest (why i dont know) the Forest of Shadows as well as Athel Lorien but they also have others...
creative and inventive im sold
defensive and Isolationism should be different defensive as it is and Isolationism should be better but you should suffer - diplomatic relations with other civs

Chaos: constant war: should be a civic units should X% cheaper but you should be locked at war with everyone and unable to change to other civics?

Brettionia: Crusades: every X turn you should be able to raise a crusade in your cities get X amount of Peasants and X amount of men-at-arms and X amount of Knights (questing grail etc) no unhappyness etc but hight maintinece costs

The Empire: State armies: units X and Y should be cheap to make and cost no maintinence till X amount is made... but X amount of units must be in cities pops X and Y otherwise you face massive unhappyness... no one wants there boys to defend another state *shudders*

Sylvania: Undeath: units X and Y enslave they unit but turn it into them but they should be really expensive to make in cities

Lizardmen: sacred spawnings every X turns minor wonders (allowed X per X amount of cities) X and Y generate units X and Y Saurus. Skinks should be buildable but not some they have special spawnings to but shouldnt be so difficult to get in numbers

Still have to address Agressive but that will be for tommorrow

(My spelling sucks i know please dont tell me. I dont use much punctuation but thats a personal choice really... otherwise thx Physic_Llamas for the response

Ok, cool, im going to add those changes to the traits in the secon post now.

your right about spiritual.
i agree about the lizardmen being elementailsts too.
ok, i see what you mean about hidden now, sorry:)
i think i could live with separate traits for defensive and isolationist.
---isolationist should also get - in forign trade as well as in diplomatic relations. they could but anable to use openboarder agreements, but have a big defensive bonus
---defensive could be a small defense bonus, and castles and walls are cheaper to build, and all archer and gunpowder units start with the city garrison 1 promotion? too powerful?

@ Ploe, how much of the civics need adjustment? what need changing, is it ok if we brainstorm heaps of new civics?

constant war, i think that should be a very late civic, for after when chaos get stronger. but once they change to that civic, therre is no going back. units should all become much cheaper. good idea:)

crusades sounds like it would be good for a wonder ro bretonia. that would be one kick ass wonder :D

State armies could be interesting. im not sure how that would work though.

Undeath could be a unit promotion, like the werewolf promotion in FfH, but it should be a % chance of raising the enemy as a skeleton, zombie or goule. shold only be given to vampires, undead spell casters, and gouls and heroes.

The sacred spawnigs would also be a kick ass wonder :D
perhaps once it is built it will randomly spawn X number of a random unit in a random city (where X is half the number of cities owned) avaliable to the civ at that time, but will only occure every few turns, say every 10 turns.

PS, your spellings not bad :) mine was worse

i just think that it would be cool if every civic had a drawback :) it might make for interesting playing

Rhye poisoned me with his traits... i see crusades as a part of Brettonia the king might maintain an army to defend the realm most of the time... but in times of need he calls together his dukes, who call together their earls, who call together their knights, who call together thier men at arms and peasants come to pay of their taxes... i see it as a trait every X amount of turns Brettonia can call use a free conscription (call to crusade) to get X amount of knights from city size Y and X amount of men at arms and peasants as well but they cost alot to keep in the field... after all people need to be payed and feed so its just as a failsafe you use it only when A) your in trouble or B) you need soldiers to lay down the smacketh

Combine it with Agricultral (with changes :eek: ) and you (Lol they are not argricultral... :crazyeye: what about all the peasants :lol: ) have the ability to call together a fairly large amry sure most of its rabble but hey... there only peasants

Add Spiritual to the mix and guess what you get cheaper damsels (they are priests sorta...) so you can have a huge army and lots of magic... off course the bulk of your army sucks and you dont have access to siege weapons but a massive stack of peasants (with no upkeep) has about the same effect... so then you smash them using your knights which have run the amount you earn in gold a turn to -200 but after you attack that city you are only running at -20 :eek: thats the idea at any rate

Sorry to say it but Warhammer is gothic fantasy :king: BRING ON PEASANT SIEGE WEAPONS of which you need 20 to equal a cannon but oh well... they are after all only peasants :lol:

:lol: i just had a picture of Gilles le Breton's squire saying "the peasants are revolting" and then gilles saying, "yes i know theyre revolting, tell me something new." :lol:

Thats actually starting to sound good :D
perhaps if we changed the name a little, so it sound more traitish, like, "crusader".

So the "Crusader" trait allows the civ to conscript units without causing any unhappyness, but everytime the civ conscripts a unit, a GROUP of X number of units appears. (where X is Half the population size of the city they were conscripted from) generally only peasants, but sometimes a knight, will appear. these units have tripple upkeep cost, and therefore the owner cannot use them all the time, only in times of dire need, or when they have heaps of money, or when, how you so fittingly put it: "you need soldiers to lay down the smacketh":lol:
occasionally, if to conscript a unit from the capital, a Questing knight can have a chance of appearing instead of an ordinary knight (this is probably getting too complex, but its a cool idea :D)
And instead of disbanding peasants, we could give them the ability to be reterned to the population of the city, so they are 'sacrificed' to add one population to the city.

I like it:D, what do other people think?

Do you suggest that Gilles' traits are Crusader, Agricultural, and Spiritual? .(i would prefer Organised instead of Agricultural)

organized instead of agricultural man peasants... ahhh but if you change the traits i can see what your getting @

Warhammer is really just a parody of historyX10 in the gothic bits...

im not sure how easy it would be to program..l. but if it wasnt to hard it would be possible to add that sort of trait (a unique one) for each civ

Kislev: Pulks
Empire: state armies
Lizardmen: sacred spawning

etc whatever they do just to catch the feeling of Warhammer in all its gothic majesty :king:

going to have a look at creating a warhammer map.... got the material to do it as well i think...

well, i think Ploe and olleus wanted to have a racial trait for each leader, so that shouldnt be hard to do.

Whats 'Pulks' ?

PS, goodluck with the map:)

Pulks: Are the way in which Kislevites armies are oraganized... normally Kislevite nobles are left to defend themselves against Chaos but in times of great incursions they are forced to organize themselves better and they form Pulks and Grand Pulks (i think there called) they can just range from a small group of nobles to the grand Pulk of the Tzarzinas in which every noble sends soldiers, the Tzarzinas household guard gets ready to ride (it garrisons Kislev normally) and they call in the friendly nomads. Doesnt often happen that they call everyone together but it happened during the latest chaos incursion :eek:.

Will add more detail to it in a later post

Not sure how to represent it in game though...

Brief History of the Empire... just to show exactly how fractious it is... and why it isnt really a single nation

Birth of Sigmar Unknown heralded by twin tailed comet

Age 15 saves Dwarf King Kurgan Ironbeard gifted with Ghal Maraz

sometime later unites tribes and defeats orcs at Blackfire pass

Year 1 of the Imperial calender Sigmar is crowned Emperor (doesnt include Kislev to far away but they are friendly to Sigmar much the same with Brettonia)

Sigmar rules 32 years till he leaves to the east

year 73 Johan Helstrum becomes first priest of Sigmar

1111 (empire in trouble during intrim) Black Plauge for 4 year 9 out of 10 die

1115 Boris Goldgather dies (hated)

1124 Mandred Ratcatcher drives out rats beasts

when Mandred dies the empire descends into civil war killed by rat beasts...

Empire divided into 2 parts Electorate Emperors and Ottilian Emperors of Tabecland division started in 1360 during which time Empress Ottilia (first empress?) rules for a brief time

1547 another claiment to the throne enters the fray the Count of Middenheim proclaimed himself Emperor in the name of Ulric the wolf god

Age of three Emperors massive civil war

1707 Gorbad Ironclaw defeats count Eldred of Solland, destroys Solland and takes his Runefang (sword of office of an elector count but also really powerful (not in game terms *cry*) sacks, defeats count of Wissenland at the battle of Grunberg (to the south of Altdorf) besieges Altdorf Sigismund killed the Electorate Emperor killed by a great beast... Orcs defeated (YAY)

1979 Margritta of Marienburg becomes Empress of the Electors, Grand Theogonist strikes it down counts say it is there right only but they abide by the choice (still a civil war)

1999 Mordheim destroyed by twin tailed comet (divine wrath)

Around this time Vlad Von Carstein becomes a vampire and attacks empire in 2010

Mannfred Von Carstien (why he isnt a leader in the mod is a bit bizzare :lol:) is killed in 2145 last of Von Carstiens (thank Sigmar) at Hel Fen

2302 stuff begins to go bad heralding chaos great incursion, attack across River Lynsk (Kislev) and destroy Praag, no emperor (still civil war). The people turn to Magnus of Nuln later called Magnus the pious. Wrote books like "On the hundred names of evil" and speeches like "The overthrow of Chaos" and "Sigmar's people" elector counts decide to follow him and all of them march to fight chaos (a long time since they had done anything together). Battle of the gates of Kislev (city) Magnus and the men of the empire and the Tzar of Kislev and a large force of Dwarves (from Karaz a Karak) vs Chaos with all the various manifestations of Chaos... Chaos is defeated and its power is broken for a generation. He also legalizes magic to combat chaos, elven wizards Fineir, Yrtle and Techlis start schools of magic and create the 8 order, Light (light magic), Golden (metals), Jade (life), Grey (shadow), Celestial (heavens), Amethyst (death), Bright (fire) and the Amber (beasts) all of which have headquarters in Altdorf

2304 Magnus is elected Emperor (even though he isnt an elector, its demanded by the people) and makes his capital Nuln :crazyeye:. First sole emperor in almost a thousand years he rebuilds the empire.

2429 Marienburg buys its independance from Emperor Dieter IV he was deposed for it. Wilhelm Prince of Altdorf is elected emperor.

2502 Karl Franz son of Wilhelm is elected Emperor destroys Orc attack at Blackfire pass and ushers in era of imperial glory

next issue is the war against Chaos "What were (nations) they doing" special mention to Brettonia who did nothing...

Will work on thinking of unique traits for each civ… also gathering material for a map or for someone else to do it

Just two words: Thx for your ideas Masada. Even if I don't respond to everything. Anyone posting ideas here can be assured I'll have a close look at the postings here and consider them.
About Trait Arcane: +10 science is only temporary. We are planning to introduce a magic commerce with a separate "techtree" for magic abilities(winds of magic) so later this trait is supposed to let the winds of magic blow stronger and possibly have other effects on magic as well. But that's future talk right now.

I don't think I will use a diplomatic trait for any of the civs. Instead I'll try to set the AI to values that make all civs hating or loving each other as they are supposed to. Any general diplobonus would only make this task harder.

If you want to discuss civics I suggest to wait for the warlordsversion so you can see what's already in there. Just the last civicoption "knowledge" could need some suggestions right now. Civics should be as generic as possible though.

My suggestions for now:
Ancient Wisdom(default)
Covens
Academies(tech philosophy)
Religious Schools(tech monasticism)
Military Schools(tech military tradition)

These civics should mainly represent how the societies elite is mainly educated and/or knowledge is preserved.

thx Ploeperpengel im just shooting ideas around left right and center maybe something will take root... maybe it wont but oh well :D

Good idea about not having generic "good" "neutral" "evil" because in warhammer it doesnt really work... Chaos is evil but Chaos doesnt get along with Greenskins even though greenskins are evil (in a racial sense so is it really evil?)

so rather than good etc warhammers style is different ... with Chaos including the Horde of Chaos, Beastmen, Chaos dwarfves etc even then they dont always get along...

:crazyeye: its not high fantasy (anymore) thank god for that its gothic and its (thank god) not clear cut

Education is right :lol: not sure about covens unless its an evil tech? what about home education (call it governors or something along those lines)

going to need to buy warlords to play the new version but oh well had to do it sometime...

no map making for me :D Phyhic_Lhamas has that under control i hope :D

Sorry, why would covens be evil?? :crazyeye: is it because witches work in covens? because thats a very common misconception that witches are evil. in the real world whitches DO NOT worship satan, they worshipnature and the living world, they are infact the most peaceful group of people, and is one of the most peaceful philosophies in the world, alnongside buddism. Sorry, had to say that :p

Nice to hear from ya Ploe;):p Ok ill try to stick to religion and education with the civics :) I like those education civics so far, have you thought of anything for them to do yet? or should we brainstorm that?

@ Masada: thats alot of interesting background on the Empire and Kislev. i have the Empire rule book, and i didnt know that :crazyeye: i should really go through that again.
However, the imperialistic trait isnt supposed to represent the entire time period, only the period of that ruler (thats what traits are:) ), i personally see Karl Franz and magnus as imperialistic, as magnus helped reconstruct the empire, and franz is soldifying it.

You can brainstorm about those I haven't decided yet what exactly they should do and suggestions are allways helpers here;)

Psychic_Llamas witches in warhammer were persecuted because they used the winds of magic which is Chaos incarnate... up until the reign of Magnus Sigmarite templars including the reiksguard (which is a templar order) to lazy to look up others hunted down witches... not through ignorance (well in part) but because they were a danger to the Empire one only needs to look at the Vampire Counts to undestand exactly why they were anti magic.

Karl Franz and Magnus the Pious are not imperialistic in an expansionist sense that the current trait represents they centralised power in the hands of the Emperors but i stress they are not absolute monarchs... they are representitive monarchs they represent the ultimate arbiters between the elector counts and they control in part the executive part of the empire as well as nessacary functions (post offices etc). They do not exercise any authority inside the various provinces and city states they hold some powers. In fact the empire is just a loose confederation of states "united by common culture and language" Empire army book. They are not a single nation Elector Counts fight between themselves as a matter of course they fight the myriad or minor problems (beastmen, chaos covens!! and cults, orcs, goblins etc) themselves it takes a big problem to draw them all together and even so they fight as independant armies they dont mix they may follow a battle plan but that will be ordered as such Reikland army do this, Stirland contingent do this etc...

They are not a nation in a modern sense nor are they governed by an absolute monarchy the central goverment is shaky to say the least. Karl Franz is a statesmen not a dictator he doesnt order the counts around he tries to form a consensus. Magnus was just there at the right time to and the people FORCED the electors to elect him Emperor it is the first time they had ever raised someone from out side there ranks to Emperor (i dont think he even had a runefang) For a historical example look at the holy roman empire for the empire is based on

(not meant to sound condesending or anything of that nature though it might...)

Oh and very little of that is in the Empire book... its really on has a dodgy excuse of a timeline :mad:

thx Ploeperpengel will brainstorm now :lol:

I dont think god would have looked kindly on people buring other people for stupid stuff... but i still dont think we have learnt that its just the reasons that have changed... :(

Military Schools: well thats really a no-brainer only think it could amp is up is the military :) could also provide a science boost to agressive, defensive, industrious civs since they tend to spend a bit of money on the possibility of new military inventions... also funny that alot of civilian inventions are from the military and military schools tended to turn out some weird things...

Examples: Engineering schools in Altdorf and the Engineering school in Nuln (they make the weapons for which i play Empire :D hellblasters :crazyeye: 30 strength 5 taken at -3 for the enemies armour saves... chariots what chariots? oh i got an enfillade shot through your whole unit of chariots? Sorry :lol: well be assured you can only do that to Tomb Kings of Khermi :lol: i love cannons even the cannon balls bounce in happyness)

Some other ideas... lyceum are cavalry schools for officers, academies tend to be for infantry and well navies tended not to have them till last century instead they utilized Midshipmen (officers in training)

Should probably be left for organized civs with the infrastructure to use them... Greenskins and Beastmen using military acadimies :crazyeye: even Brettonia would be a bit dodgy they are not educated at schools instead they follow the medievil idea of tutors... and really they spend there whole life training for war Squire (guess you could consider it a student role they dont fight...), Knights Errant, Knight of the Realm, Questing Knight, Grail Knights (Living saints now... complete with halos and OMG glowing eyes :crazyeye: ) and well Estalia (spain... well similar to Brettionia im not really sure) Tilea would have military schools but tutors would be more common (Italian city states) adn the rest well......? Lizardmen make soldiers and leaders... Sylvania is led by vampires and doesnt require courage... they are dead... Khemiri? well by the time your mod starts they are allready sorta dead... (i think) and they are similar to Sylvania but their soldiers are not compulsed to do it they do it because of a sick sense of duty... a judgement call really for the rest

Religious Schools: well most would have this somewhere... Chaos, Greenskins etc well i dont even know if they have education... but hey.... bonus to military and priests? and science? military could get religous upgrades Zealotism 1 and 2? or Zeal 1 and 2? or Intolerance 1 and 2? :lol:

Academies: similar to both Millitary and Religous schools... they tended to teach the same stuff...
(scrap it maybe?)

Covens=EVIL tech.... well chaosy tech i guess other nations could adopt it... high elves? but it would be a limited tech.. at least in terms of civs... but it should boost mages since they tend to congregate secretly...

Ancient Wisdom? Spoken Lore? Traditions? (i dont know Ancient Wisdom is a bit dumb to me...) nothing just stock standard... hard to keep things active in an oral manner (alot gets lost over time as stories stop being popular etc) or if people invade your nation and wreck your culture... :mad:

Tutors should be in there... replace Academies..? no idea what it would do in game? arrogance 1 and 2?, selfish 1 and 2?, contempt 1 and 2?, hatred of learning 1 and 2 :lol:

Hmmm and Gifted Knowlegde? (Lizardmen, Sylvania, Khemari, Orgres...) they all sorta are either born with it (Lizardmen)... absorb it (ogres) or never really have any... (Sylvania, Khemari sorta..) Oh and Khemari has been undead since Nagash which was a couple of thousand years before Sigmar...

About covens: this really isn't an evil tech it's for druids and witches yes but in times before Sigmar was declared a god where the old faith was stronger in the old world I think covens would fit well even for the Empire(Unberogens).

About academies your right though. Allthough I was thinking of platos academy not modern academies I forgot that platos academy really was an exception. Tutors indeed where more common in ancient as well as medieval times.

Anyway I think I could simply use similar civics like FFH and include Apprenticeship.

The old faith was really just confined largely to Albion even during the time of Sigmar it had died out of the old world proper. In reality druids never participated in covens (good old romans made them look evil) Before Sigmar was a god (he was never declared a god it devolped) Unberogens worshipped Taal, Urlic and the other gods... but not the old gods (think Gog and Madgog for what the old gods were like, not the panthoen of gods that currently exist)

The real old gods are way before that and the Unberogens were just a single tribe in the empire... not even the most powerful till Sigmar united them they came from what is now the electorate of Reikland and the other Electorates are made up of the range of other tribes...

Taal and Ulric in some places in the empire have a stronger following than Sigmar.. its a pantheon system believing in 1 god does not rule out the existance of the others... even Brettionia's belive in the other gods they may not be as popular or in there eyes as powerful as the lady but Brettionias are bit weird anyways...

Priests of Taal might be sorta like druids be they do not consider themselves druids. Druids are the servants of the old old gods which is now limited to Albion. Jade wizards are in the same boat... they look like druids they act like druids however they are not druids its all rather messy... but i dont think covens is really a good thing it has negative connatations... replace it with something like Undestanding of Nature or something else neutral... but thats just me

Last note... there are 2 forms of worshipping the old gods... Albion worships the old gods (old ones who created the world god like...) but they worship a limited amount of them and consider them creator gods but are ignorant of the fact that technology can make you look like a god...

And the Slann Mage-priests... which isnt really a religion... Slann are just really old and some are nearly old enough to remeber the old ones... (2nd generation are currently the oldest alive... 1st generation actually knew the old ones) they dont worship them as such... they venerate them as creators and value there technology which they use... yes they have ritualized them to an extent but lets us not forget that they KNEW the old ones that it might seem odd to say that some of them are snake like some of them are bird like... but that is what they looked like the oldest living Slann are 8,000 years old and the creation of the world was only like 10-12,000 years ago and the world is not a natraul construct as such...

Eusebius World Religions omg... what a mod... why didnt i see it earlier...

Base religion: Animism? Shaminism? etc nothing spirits etc are entirely to powerful live with it...

Divine Appeasement: can appease gods by population sacrifice and having special resources.... temples complexes not really specific temples (current gods, Ulric, Sigmar, Taal etc) could just be a shrine but could range to a large temple for a paticularily favoured god...

Divine Patronage: God(s) worship now standardized under a central governace or sufficently widespread. Religion may crown your leader or may elect or may forge your leader it takes an active role in the goverment and governace. Build depending on faiths in cities a great temple to selected gods.. (theology but ability to select multiple religions? in your mod they tend to represent mulitple religions..)

Prophet-King, Living god, Absolute Monarch: By the grace of god etc... your monarch is the nominal head of state and of the god(s) religion nothing can stand against his divine will... build even larger temples (more happyness etc) but increase corruption a god still has favourites right?

Ordained Social Order, Caste system, religous elite, priestly caste: priests are built much cheaper and will convert people much quick and easier... but temples give limited happyness... elite classes tend to like secrets and not sharing them

Manifest Destiny, divine rule, divine right: God(s) tell you to take over world and bring light to the darkness or darkness to the light etc... warrior tech

Eusebius World Religions for the ideas BOWS BEFORE :king:ly GLORY!!! something like that?

I think WH Religions could somehow go along these lines if Eusebius is developed far enough to 1. run stable 2. not giving any more python exeptions 3. code is fully understood by AI. If these conditions are matched(? sorry my english...) I think we could try to use those mechanics for Warhammer Religions.
Keep on producing Religionfluff here btw I really need this kinda info! Anything you read about Araby, Ind?

yeah... when it comes to me i type :crazyeye: run out of subjects so if anyone wants to outline some... it would be more than happy elaborate...

Dont worry im a native english speaker (well sort of...) and my spelling and punctuation still suck :crazyeye:

yeah... when it comes to me i type :crazyeye: run out of subjects so if anyone wants to outline some... it would be more than happy elaborate...

Dont worry im a native english speaker (well sort of...) and my spelling and punctuation still suck :crazyeye:

Araby and Ind.... hmmm well there is almost nothing on them

Araby: uses elementals... and suffered from a crusade majority of population seems to sit on the coastal plains mountains lead into the really hardcore desert... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Araby_(Warhammer) tell you very little...

My personal thoughts on any map follows as such... cut it off at the dark lands and orgre kindoms... simply speaking there is next to no infomation on Ind, Nippon, or Cathay (which means they are always going to be underdevolped compared to my own beloved empire, or Brittionia etc) i guess though you could deveolp more detail by taking a look at what Arabia was like and extracting some elements you like

I can add some more infomation to that they are pirates all cities do it, they use elementals think dust devils and what not...it was to my knowelgde considered by Khemeri to be barbaric (just axemen and clubmen)... and according to Wikipedia they suffered invasions from Khemeri? but certanily after they devolped into a civilization

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Muktar%27s_Desert_Dogs gives you an idea of what they nomads are like may well be a reflection of Araby? no idea really

Ind (worse infomation that Araby) http://home.swipnet.se/~w-13090/stories/history.html pretty bloody accurate not quite up to date at the moment but oh well... brb if you wanna comment (first time i have used an outside source... normally just use my mind) i do remeber something about were-*blank* its mentioned in the Ogre Kingdoms book somewhere (if someone wants to look it up) silk road runs from Ogre Kindoms to Ind. Hmmm otherwise they are really only in 2 old boxed sets... 1980ties... supposedly (think i can find any hard data :() dont ask me about Cathay or Nippon because that is almost as thin on the ground with regards to data...

Some whispers about a possible release of Ind as an army... which seems to be false

Empire
Vampire Counts
Dark Elves
Tomb Kings
Chaos.

In order of book release... and wtf Chaos again i mean ffs get over it... and tomb kings man they only just had a book made... Empire :D yay but they are getting more mechanical... looks to be more guns and super weapons... :( i like my super weapons but not to the exclusion of all else and empire is getting way to gothic... its just sorta silly now i mean they wernt to dark before sort of the sane bit of the world... now they are sorta stupid... at least to me :( i liked what happened with Imperial guard it was in line with the storyline but this how is this the empire? :( they look evil...

They bought outriders back BRING ON THE GATLING GUNS!!! or are they repeater handguns or pistols?... Empire general? not an elector count?... Kurt Helborg is back :D

Last little post... personally i would recomend if there is a map to go with the mod it not to include anything east of the ogre kingdoms (other civs are more devolped) simply speaking there is nothing on Ind, Cathay, Nippon (2 pages max) and to that matter Tilea, Araby, and Estalia... (5 pages max and some mentions in black libary texts) but sadly alot of the map would just have gaps...

Wow, that was a lot of discussion in the past 24 hours, :goodjob: love it! :D

Education civics:
No Education the default civic, does nothing. no upkeep cost.
Magic Covens:
this could be a neutural civic, (all magic is born from the winds of magic (read the pages on the 8 colleges of magic in the Empire book) so depending on the allegance of the caster it can be good or evil.
this gives a bonus +4 experience to all civs magic units, but all magic units cost +40% more to build. Low Upkeep cost.
Bardic knowledge:
this is an oral tradition, wher the civs knowledge is passed down from generation to generation by word of mouth. This could make religions spread 10% faster (spread of religious stories) +1 extra happyness to cities with trade routes. Low Upkeep cost.
Roaming Tutorage:
This is the education of the civs population but bands of migrating tutors, and teachers who move from city to city spreading thier knowledge. this could give + 30% science to cities with a trade route. Low Upkeep cost.
Military Acadamies:
This is the construction of miltary schools, to educate the people in the ways of military. this could make a +10% production speed, a 10% decrease in tech reasearch costs, and +2 EXP points to all new military units built. High Upkeep cost.
Religious Acadamies:
This is the construction of Religious schools, to educate the people in the ways of the rigions of the world. this could make a +10% spread of religion in the civ, a 10% decrease in tech reasearch costs, and +1 happyness to cities with any religion in them (like free religion) High Upkeep cost.
intuitive Knowledge:
This is the form of knowledge where the populus is born with an inate knowledge. this could give a base +2 science to all cities and a free science specialist in all cities. Medium Upkeep cost
Organised Magic: this is the form of education where magical advancement is encouraged in the civs schools and universities. This could give 10% decline in costs of magic techs in the magic tree, +1 magic commerce in all cities, and makes magic units cheaper by 20%. Very High Upkeep Cost.

Please note, i know the above ideas are very unbalanced, and i know there a probably too many, just throwing ideas around:)

@ Masada: you will see, that if you take a look at the 8 Colleges of magic in the empire rule book, that ALL magic is derived from the winds of chaos. it is purely up to the practicioner's alignment as to whether they are 'good' or 'evil', and you said yourself that there is an indistinct line between good and evil in warhammer.

Also, Quoting from the "Critical Hit" website on the Old Faith:
"The Old Faith:
The oldest religion in the Old World, worshipped by Druids. Its practices revolve around worshipping nature and natural forces.
Neutral
Worship is strongest in the north and west of Old World. Has strong links in rural areas. Many Rangers follow the Old Faith.
Indifferent with the other Old World cults. Has strong relations with Taal, the husband of Rhya.
Summer and winter solstices, spring and autumn equinoxes. Lesser holy days associated with full and new moons."
you will find that the old faith was VERY widely practiced in the Old World prior to Sigmar :)

i also think you may be mistaken as to the fact that the Empire is based on the romans. i think they are, in fact based on the Germanic empire, and Tilia is based on the Roman Empire. (look at the Empires city name, Marienburg? Altdorf? sounds german to me :), now look at tilian city names, Rimas? sounds roman to me;) ) sorry, i had to say that too :)

I love these discussions, keep them coming:)

@ masada and Ploe: take a look at this website, its full of info on Warhammer Religions and a timeline of the entire period. its pretty useful.:)

i like the education civic ideas there great maybe a bit to good in some cases but oh well... science tends to lag a long way back and if you expand even a bit to quick in the start... be prepared for a 100 turn wait till you can scournge up trade :mad: AI does it to.

Magic is i quote INHERANTLY evil it is from Chaos, Chaos is evil incarnate and therefore it is evil. Mages well "good" mages filter and refine it to a controllable mass... it is still evil. You need only look at the warhammer rules concerning magic to understand why... boom no head left. Alignment doesnt really matter a great deal in warhammer... everything is grey look at the new minatures for the empire and you see what they game is like...

Yeah i guess the Old faith is oldest religion... Lizardmen dont really worship as such they venerate and try to fufill there makers wishes...

The old faith is from before the Old ones (not the same thing left the world) before the gates at the north pole opened and chaos flooded into the world

The only real stronghouse left of the old faith is Albion and i believe from my reading it deviates from what was originally worshipped... it is no longer practised exepct for a tiny percentage of the population of the continental old world. They gave way to the new gods, long before Sigmar was born Sigmar i will stress was no considered a god when he was alive it devolped it is a cult limited to the Empire and really on in the West of the Empire... the middle provinces tend to like Taal, the East worship Ulric... of course this is a strict rule there is a great deal of exeptions... worshipping Ulric does not mean you dont also believe in Sigmar (but not as a god maybe? just the founder of the empire) but it may also be that you worship him and Ulric as well as any other god you wish to... the Lady of the Lake is not the only god worshipped in Brettonia (if you will consider it the local cult akin to Sigmar) they still worship the other gods

But i will stress the old gods have no power or influence in the continent or if they do it is minimal. Warhammers gods do take an interest in the world (for them belief is power) that is why Morr cannot stand Vampires and the undead (Btw he is not the god of killing he is the god of the allready dead... he has nothing to do with the act of killing just after that... my favourite god btw).

Sigmar is only a cult of the Empire and the east... he surplanted Ulric as the most widely worshipped god of the Empire at least in the West. http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer/religion/1/ shows a list of the gods... right out of the horses mouth if you will

The empire is based on the holy roman empire.. (the Roman bit was about the misconception that druids were evil and used covens and what not) and the German confederation... the holy roman empire elected an emperor the prostestants had a vote (Ulric stand in) and so did the cathlics (Sigmar stand in) as did the Counts, Kings etc of the german states they were all Elector Kings or Counts etc Marienburn is not part of the Empire (its a stand in for the low countries or so im led to belive) Tilia is not roman as such (it was like that during its history) but its even more fragmentated than the empire is representing Italy for most of its history...

Oh and what website???

The Knights of the Twin-Tailed Orb: The Knights of the Twin-Tailed Orb are followers of Sigmar, named after the two-tailed comet that heralded Sigmar's appearance among mortals. Like other Sigmarite orders they are renowned for their zeal and fervour. In particular, the Knights of the Twin-Tailed Orb are famous for their eagerness to prevent the escape of a single tainted foe, and will relentlessly pursue fleeing enemies even when it would make more tactical sense to regroup.

The Knights of the Blazing Sun: Templars of the war-goddess Myrmidia, the Knights of the Blazing Sun were founded during the Crusades in 1457. In a street battle against the Arabians in Estalia, a group of knights were saved from certain defeat when a freak earth tremor dislodged a huge statue of Myrmidia from a temple roof. It crashed to the ground and landed on the enemy general and his bodyguard, killing them instantly. After the battle, the survivors banded together and founded the Order of the Blazing Sun in Myrmidia's honour.

The Templars of Sigmar: Although a Knightly Order, the mysterious group known simply as the Templars of Sigmar are a world away from the warriors in shining armour of popular image, so much so that they rarely refer to themselves as knights. Instead they battle the foes of Sigmar from the shadows, dealing with subtle and insidious threats such as Chaos cults and reclusive necromancers. In particular they excel at battling users of sorcery, as magic and trickery are tools often used by the servants of darkness. All that most common folk see of the Templars of Sigmar are the elaborate trials and fiery executions used to cleanse the souls of the wicked, and because of this they are most often known simply as Witch Hunters.

The Knights of the White Wolf: As Templars of Ulric, the White Wolves are based in Middenheim, which is the centre of the Ulrican cult. They are known for being the wildest of all the Knightly Orders, charging into battle with no thought for their own safety, and frequently no thought for strategy or tactics either. Their ferocity is unmatched, however, and few enemies can withstand the crushing blows of their cavalry hammers.

The Black Guard of Mórr: Seen less frequently on the open battlefield than knights of many other Orders, the sinister Black Guard are more often encountered travelling alone or in small groups, seeking out corrupt sorcerers who would interfere with the realm of the dead and take resting souls from their place at Mórr's side. In this capacity they frequently work alongside the Witch Hunters of Sigmar, combining arms to deal with an undead threat.'

Thank you Warrhammer.com

The Templars of Sigmar are actually good people in black libary works... dark but fighting the god fight against enemies to evil to compredhend :D and just to show there is solidarity between faiths the Blackguard of Mórr often fight alongside Templars of Sigmar... OH and the Reiksguard are templars of Sigmar as well they see the Emperor as the manifestation of sigmar...

Oh and not all magic is derived from the winds of Magic... Gut magic, Orc magic, Skaven magic, Undead magic... those do not use the winds of magic they use racial abilities... did Nagash use the winds of magic no i dont think he did mass sacrifice if i remeber correctly... oh and the magic that priests use is not from the winds of magic it is from the gods themselves :D however the gods are meant to derive themselves out of chaos or at least the energy released during that... which begs the question were the Old ones... the creators mortal or gods?

:lol: sorry, this website: http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/content/view/85/48/

Ok, Ok :D, so magic inherently evil. (but 'good' mages can "refine it to a controllable mass" and make it slightly less evil :D
But enough of this 'good' and 'evil' nonsense.

about the gods of the old world:
we are only going to have a religion called "human god" for now. i think this is a place holder for until the Eusebius' Religions mod is completed and we can have more religions. until that time im afraid sigmar, ulric and taal and morr will be combined as the Human Gods. however, we may split it up into the separate dieties later on.

No Education (well i would dispute that you dont learn stuff with no formal education...) call it something like Common Knowelgde more PC (politcally correct and closer to the truth) :D

Does nothing.... yeah i guess...

Magical Covens
Magic Covens: Not all magic is from the winds of magic... and really i guess you could be right that before magic was standarized there would have been good and bad mages... however since most nations persacuted mages... there really couldnt be to many as such it would be an early civic... but magic for most of the world wasnt "legal" until the end of the great war against chaos... elves taught men magic as a formal science then (though that might be a bit rich... not sure if the science or at least controlled aspect of it spread from the empire or was allready present in other places...) i dont like it :D scrap it :D (or think of a better idea i dont think it would represent a large enough porti