Hello there all you Warhammer fans out there!:)

I have decided to make this new thread as a thread dedicated to the suggesting and brainstorming of creative ideas for the Warhammer Fantasy Battles Mod for Civ 4.

Here is a link to the Bugs and development (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=182258)thread for the mod.
There are the downloads for the mod there, and also teasers, and a relatively detailed description of what is in the Mod.

Please feel free to comment on anything about the mod (but please try to keep it related to this mod;) ) and dont feel that your ideas are stupid. very few ideas can be stupid:D only if you suggest that a giant cat in a leather outfit with a macine gun would make a great hero, you might hear me saying " that was a stupid idea":D. but anything other than that, go ahead.

This said, i would like to keep this thread Warhammer fantasy related, so i would ask all of you not to post about un-warhammer fantasy related topics. this included Warhammer 40k, as the 2 are completely different games, and we are not even thinking about WH40k in this mod. :) thanks.

Also, id like to keep this thread peaceful, so please, no harsh, uncalled for ragging of other people's ideas. if you do not like an idea, just say "i dont like that idea". there is absolutely no need to get rude.

These rules are put in plase to ensure that this thread stays fun and interesting, not a place where you go to fight. some of you will know what i am talking about.

Other than that, i hope to see tonnes of ideas flowing.

Here is a list of a few things (but not all) we could do with a few ideas for:

New Leader traits. (we are looking at 3/ leader)
New Civics options.
Technology tree adgustments.
ideas for the new Magic Tree (which will only be in the distant future)
New buildings for the eraly eras.
A new method of Religion.
Religion effects
Ideas for heroes and characters.
Ideas for new units, or to rebalance old units.
ideas for wonders.
ideas for balancing the mod.
ideas to make it more original.
but most importantly, ideas to make it more FUN.

ok, i think thats all, so, get started:D

List of the new traits and what they do:

Arcane:
+10% Science

Aggressive:
free promotion (combat 1) for melee and gunpowder units.
double production speed of Barracks, drydock, siegeweapons workshop

Philosophical:
+100% greatpeople birth rate
double production speed of university

Spiritual:
no anarchy
double production speed of temples

Elementalist:
??

Agricultural:
+1 health / city
+1 food on plots with 3 food already.

Imperial:-50% Civic upkeep
+1 culture / city

Exspansive:
+2 Health / city
double production speed of granary, harbour.

Hidden:
??

Creative:
+50% great people birth rate
+1 culture / city
double production speed of bloodbowl stadium, theatre

Industrious:
+1 hammer on plots with 3 hammers already
double production speed of forge

Financial:
+1 gold on plots with 2 gold already
double production speed of bank

Defencive:
Free promotion (homeland) for recon, archery, mounted and melee units.

Friends of the woods:
+2 health / city.

Orgagnized:-50% Civic upkeep
double production speed of courthouse, lighthouse

Greenskins:-60% civic upkeep
-10% science

Seafaring:
Free promotions: (combat I, navigation I, sentry) for naval units.




List of the suggested traits and what they do:

Diplomatic (suggested by Masada)
adds + modifiers to the diplomancy bar, makes all rivals slightly happyer with you regardless of alignment?


List of racial traits and what they could do:

Dwarven racial trait: (suggested by Arexack)
-stubborn :will not forget any slight (might be better coded hidden in the diplomatic memory stats.... )
-magically inert. : 0% magicpoints generation multiplier, +2 general dispells/turn.
-tunnelling:
-units in cities count as being in a walled city. building a citywall increases defence (fortified entrances).
-specialised worker units can build tunnels, when mining is researched.
-long lived / superior constitution: +1 health in cities



Leader and their traits list:


Amazons(not in yet)

Leader1:
Traits:
Leader2:
Traits:

Arabya

Leader1:Jaffar
Traits:Elementalist, Philosophical, spiritual
Leader2:n/a
Traits:

Bretonnia

Leader1:King Louen Leoncoeur
Traits: Expansive, Organised ?
Leader2:Gilles le Breton
Traits: Spiritual, creative ?

Cathay

Leader1:Emperor Wu
Traits: Agricultural, imperial
Leader2:n/a

Empire
(suggestions thanks to Masada:))
"The empire is really just a collection of city states and states in theory it is one nation... but just flicking through the background one notices the war of 3 emperors (just prior to the great war against chaos). The destruction of the world was narrowly avoided by Magnus the pious so hes a great leader. Karl Franz is also a great leader in current warhammer... (no word for it that i can think of..) he is the current Elector Emperor as well as being Elector of Altdorf . The empire is a collection of states feudal rather than imperial the electors need only answer a call to arms from the Emperor and from my reading they can ignore it if they dont like it. To elect and Emperor there are 14? electors the 2 archlectors of Sigmar the High priest of Sigmar the High priest of Ulric? the elder of moot (Halfling) and the rest are the electors themselves. So in reality the empire isnt really a single unified state so imperialism doesnt really fit in terms of the background in terms of the game play it fits quite well "

Leader1:Emperor Magnus
Traits:

---Spiritual (the pious says it all... he was a champion of sigmar and killed Ashovar Kel ),
---Aggressive (he led the armies of the Empire and Kislev to Kislev to lift the siege of Kislev by chaos (lol that was to many Kislevs)
---Diplomatic (add + modifiers to the diplomancy bar...? (to represent he was on good terms with the Dwarves (defended Kislev city), High Elves, Kislev and Bretonnia (they sent a crusade but it was a bit late from memory))

Leader2:Emperor Karl Franz
Traits:

---Agricultural (represents the huge amount of Agricultural growth that has occured during his reign)
---Industrious (shows that the industry of the Empire is improving and the potential output is higher. During the Storm of Chaos, Nuln's furnaces were burning non stop to create cannons, mortars and hellblaster volley guns)
---Financial (the empire was during the earliest part of his reign the strongest it had been )

Estalia

Leader1:Highpriest Jose'Paul
Traits: Spiritual, seafaring
Leader2:n/a

Ind

Leader1:Moghul King Akabar
Traits: Spiritual, organised
Leader2:n/a
Traits:

Kislev

Leader1:Tzar Boris Ursus, the Red Tzar
Traits: Aggressive, Expansive
Leader2:Tzarina Katarin the Icequeen
Traits:Arcane, Elementalist

Nippon

Leader1:Emperor Takagura
Traits: Agricultural, organized
Leader2:n/a


Norsca

Leader1:Ragnar
Traits: Aggressive, Seafaring
Leader2:n/a
Traits:

Tilea

Leader1:Marco Columbo
Traits: Financial, Seafaring
Leader2:Luccini and Lucan
Traits: Spiritual, Creative, Industrious

Beastmen(not included yet)

Leader1:
Traits:
Leader2:
Traits:

Chaos

Leader1:Archaon, Lord of the End Times
Traits: Aggressive, Summoner, expansive, hidden
Leader2:n/a
Traits:

Chaos Dwarfs(not in yet)

Leader1:
Traits:
Leader2:
Traits:

Darkelves

Leader1:Malekith the Witchking
Traits: Arcane, Aggressive, Seafaring
Leader2:Morathi the Hag Queen
Traits: Aggressive, Arcane

Dwarfs

Leader1:Thorgrim Grudgebearer
Traits: Industrial, Financial,
Leader2:Baragor
Traits: Aggressive, industrious

Ogre Lords(not in yet)

Leader1:Greaseus Goldtooth
Traits:
Leader2:n/a
Traits:

Orcs

Leader1:Grimgor Ironhide
Traits: Greenskins
Leader2:Azhag the Slaughterer
Traits: Greenskins

Gobbos(not in yet)

Leader1:Grom the Paunch
Traits: Greenskins
Leader2:Skarsnik
Traits: Greenskins

Highelves

Leader1:Aenarion
Traits:
---Creative(+1 culture, 50% Great poeple),
---Defensive(isolationism?),
---Magical or spiritual?
Leader2:Finubar
Traits:
---Creative(+1 culture, 50% Great poeple),
---Seafaring,
---Financial,

Hobgoblin Hegemony(not in yet)

Leader1:
Traits:
Leader2:
Traits:

Tombkings

Leader1:Settra the Imperishable
Traits: Defensive, Imperialistic, Arcane
Leader2:Khalidar Neferher
Traits: Agricultural, Arcane, Spiritual

Lizardmen

Leader1:Mazdamundi
Traits:
Leader2:Tenehuini(not playable yet)
Traits:

Skaven(not in yet)

Leader1:Morskitter?
Traits:
Leader2:Ikit Claw?
Traits:

Sylvanians

Leader1:Vlad von Carstein
Traits: Aggressive,
Leader2: N/A
Traits:

Woodelves

Leader1:Ariel
Traits: Hidden, Friends of the Wood, Magical?
Leader2:Orion
Traits: Hidden, Friends of the Wood, Defensive

Current Religion ideas:

The 7 main religions are bold, with the possible sub religions listed benieth with the civs that they relate to next them.



Old Faiths
-The Old Faith --- The Empire, Bretonnia, Tilia, Estalia, Kislev, Norsca, Albion, Araby.
-Asuryanism / Cult of Asuryanism --- High Elves (as well as the other elves)
-Cult of Khaine --- Dark elves (as well as the other elves)
-Followers of Isha --- Wood Elves (as well as the other elves)
-Dwarven Pantheon (Morngrim/ Grungni/ Rukh)--- Dwarves
-The Old Ones --- Lizardmen, Amazonians
-Ormzad Pantheon --- Araby, Khemri(probably Khemries religion before they died), Lhamia (lhamia is a break away civ from Khemri and therefore used to have the same religion as them)
-The Indic Pantheon --- Ind

Details of the "Old Faiths" sub religions:


The "Old Faiths" Religion:
In General:
Old Faiths has a slow spread rate.
with more expensive, powerful priests than other religions.
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be more expensive, but will have stronger effects than the other religions.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Old Faith sub religion.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Old Faith sub religion. Can heal units.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Old Faiths sub religion. Can heal units.


Sub Religions:
-The Old Faith
Can only build Altars. Each Altar makes Priests and magic casters slightly cheaper, and allows all priests of the Old Faith to act as a normal mage and thus start with one free spell from any of the 8 Winds of magic.
Altars also produce +1 Magic Commerce.
The Monument gives all new priests of the Old Faith built in this city another free spell from any of the 8 Winds of magic.
---Buildings:
Altar= Coven
Temple= none
Cathedral= none
Monument= Monument of Nature
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Witch
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)---Druid
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)---Arch Druid (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-Asuryanism
All Asuryan priests have free access to the Winds of Fire as any normal fire mage would. Mage priests of Asuryan can also act as inquisitors to remove non-state religions. All Altars produce +1 happiness. Temples and cathedral also produce an additional +1 Happiness in their cities if it has access to Incense.
---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Flame
Temple= Temple of Asuryan
Cathedral= Hall of the Phoenix
Monument= The Shrine of Asuryan
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) ---Asuryan Dedicate
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priest of Asuryan
High Priest (requires Cathedral) ---Mage Priest of Asuryan (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-Cult of Khaine
units built in cities with: Altar gain +1 EXP, Temple gain +1 more EXP, Cathedral gain +1 more EXP. Priests of the Cult of Khaine are able to enslave defeated enemies. Slaves may be sacrificed in cities with Altars, Temples or Cathedral to: Rush a building, make an instant +10 Science, or to add +1 EXP to one Priest of the Cult of Khaine present In the city.
---Buildings:
Altar= The Blood Altar
Temple= Temple of Khaine
Cathedral= Hall of Murder
Monument= The Sword of Khaine
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) ---Acolyte of Khaine
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priestess of Khaine
High Priest (requires Cathedral) ---Bride of Khaine (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-Followers of Isha
All workers are unable to cut forests of clear jungle. Cities with Altar gain +1 food from forests. Cities with Temples gain +1 Happiness from forests. High Priests are able to plant forests. All High priests of the Followers of isha have the spell “Isha’s Blessing” (which is a variant of the WE spell ‘Ariel’s Blessing’) which gives the target unit ‘regeneration’ until the start of the next turn.
---Buildings:
Altar= Sacred Tree
Temple= Isha's Grove
Cathedral= Oaken Hall
Monument= The Tears of Isha
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) --- Handmaiden of Isha
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priestess of Isha
High Priest (requires Cathedral) --- High Priestess of Quyl-Isha (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-Dwarven Pantheon
cities with the: Altar gain +10% defence, Temple gain another +5% defence, +1 Science, Cathedral gain another +5% defence, +1 Science. All units built in the city with the monument have the ‘stubborn’ ability.
---Buildings:
Altar= Oath Tablet
Temple= Temple of the Dwarf Gods
Cathederal= Hall of the Elders
Monument= The Book of Grudges
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) --- Acolyte of the Dwarf Gods
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priest of the Dwarf Gods
High Priest (requires Cathedral) --- Warrior-Priest of the Dwarf Gods (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-The Old Ones
All Priests of the Old Ones are able to enslave defeated opponents. Slaves can be sacrificed in cities with the: Altar to produce an instant +10 magic commerce. Temple to produce an extra instant +10 magic commerce, Cathedral to produce an extra instant +10 Science. Mage priests of the old Ones act as a normal Mage and can choose magic from any of the Winds of magic like a normal mage.
---Buildings:
Altar= Sacrificial Altar
Temple= Temple of the old Ones
Cathederal= Pyramid Temple
Monument= The Marks of the Old Ones
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) --- Prophet of the Old Ones
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priest of the Old Ones
High Priest (requires Cathedral) --- Mage-Priest of the Old Ones (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-Ormzad Pantheon
Cities with the: Altar get +1 Happiness , Temple get +1 Happiness from Incense and priests of the Ormzad pantheon built in those cities get the ‘inquisitor’ ability, Cathedral are immune to the spread of non state religion. All priests of the Ormzad Pantheon built in cities with the Cathedral are able to summon elementals and act like normal elementalists.
---Buildings:
Altar= Obelisk to the Gods
Temple= Temple of Al-Anon
Cathedral= Al-Anon Grand Temple Complex
Monument= Al-Anon’s Garden
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) --- Ormzad Initiate
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priest of Ormzad
High Priest (requires Cathedral) --- Great Sage of Ormzad (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


-The Indic Pantheon
Altars produce +1 great People Points. Temples give + 1 Culture, Cathedrals Gain +1 gold. The Home of the Gods produces +1 Gold for every Acolyte of the Indic Pantheon. All High Priests of the Indic pantheon are able to instantly construct any of the Indic pantheon religious Buildings at the cost of being sacrificed. In doing so the indic pantheon is also spread to the chosen city.
\---Buildings:
Altar= Shrine of the Inner-Self
Temple= Temple of the Thousand
Cathedral= Hall of the Thousand
Monument= The Home of the Gods
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) --- Pilgrim of the Thousand
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priest of the Thousand
High Priest (requires Cathedral) --- Great Sage of the Thousand(World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)



Young Gods -Northen Gods (gods of winter etc)---The Empire, Kislev, Norsca, Albion
-Southern Gods (gods of plenty etc)---Bretonnia, Estalia, Tilia, Albion
-Old World Pantheon (Morr, Ulric, Rhia, Manann, Verena, Haendryk, Myrmidia, Luccan, Luccina etc) --- The Empire, Bretonnia, Tilia, Estalia, Kislev
-Norse Pantheon (Thor, Odin etc)--- Norsca, kislev, Empire for diversity?

Details of the "Young Gods" sub religions:

The "Young Gods " Religion:
In General:
Young Gods has a normal Spread rate
with normal costs and priests
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be an average cost, and will have normal effects.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Young Gods sub religion.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Young Gods sub religion. Can heal units.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Young Gods sub religion. Can heal units. Can inquisition.


Sub Religions:
-The Northern Gods
All altars, Temples and Cathedrals of the Northern Gods make Alters temples and Cathedrals of the Southern Gods unavailable in the city that they are built (meaning that one city cannot have both the Northern gods and the southern gods in it at the same time.) Altars, Temples and Cathedrals of the Northern Gods each make all units 5% cheaper to produce (military and religious).
The city with the monument becomes immune to Barbarian attacks (meaning that barbarians cannot attack the city with the northern monument)
All religious units have 1 more strength than normal religious units.

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar to the Northern Gods
Temple= Temple of the Northern Pantheon
Cathedral= Sacred Hall of the Northern Pantheon
Monument= Hall of Heavenly Protection
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Northern Fanatic
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Warrior Priest of the North
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Warrior High-Priest of the North (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


-The Southern Gods
All altars, Temples and Cathedrals of the Southern Gods make Alters temples and Cathedrals of the Northern Gods unavailable in the city that they are built (meaning that one city cannot have both the Northern gods and the Southern gods in it at the same time.) Alters, Temples and Cathedrals of the Southern Gods each produce +1 Happiness.
All Priests and high Priests of the southern gods are also able to build ‘libraries’ in cities with the Southern Gods CR at the cost of their life.
The Hall of Heavenly Bounty makes all plots of land in it’s cities radius with 2 food instead produce 3.

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar to the Southern Gods
Temple= Temple of the Southern Pantheon
Cathedral= Sacred Hall of the Southern Pantheon
Monument= Hall of Heavenly Bounty
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Southern Altar Servers
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Scholar Priest of the South
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Scholar High-Priest of the South (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


-The Old World Pantheon
All Old World Pantheon buildings produce +1 happiness if another Young Gods SR is present in the city. (cancelling out the -1 happiness from competing SR’s) all Temple Streets produce +1 gold, and Temple Districts produce +2 gold (symbolising the charitable donations by the population to the temples)
Priests are also able to inquisition.
Al Acolytes, Priests and High priests built in the city with the Seat of the Gods have one extra priest spell.

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar to the Gods
Temple= Temple Street
Cathedral= Temple District
Monument= Seat of the Gods
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Acolyte of the Gods
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Priest of the Gods
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- High Priest of the Gods (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-The Norse Pantheon
A city with a Norse Pantheon’s ‘Horgr’ is able to sacrifice an ‘animal’ to produce +1 Happyness for 5 turns. The Sacred Copse allows cities to build ‘Sacrificial Animals’ to be sacrificed at the Horgr. The Long House allows cities to build 2 kinds of High priest, a Seiokona who also acts also as a normal mage, and the Hersir, who is a strong warrior chieftain with very high moral bonuses to his stack but unable to inquisition. The Shamaness and Volva act also as weak mages.
The Valhalla makes all religious units built in the city start with one extra priest spell.

---Buildings:
Altar= Hörgr
Temple= Sacred Copse
Cathedral= Long House
Monument= Valhalla
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Shamaness
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Völva
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Seiðkona and Hersir (World Unit, can only have 3 of each at a time)


Dark Children
-Cult of Nagash /Veneration of Nagash / Pogrency of Nagash? --- Khemri, Lhamia, Sylvania
-The Horned Rat --- Skaven
-Gods of the Dark Forge? (better name?) --- Chaos Dwarves
-Mark of Blood? Blood Cult? The Bloodless? --- Lhamia, Sylvania.

Details of the "Dark Children" sub religions:


The "Dark Children" Religion:
In General:
Dark Children has a Normal Spread rate
with expensive costs of priests
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be an High cost, and will have Good effects.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Dark Children sub religion.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Dark Children sub religion. Can heal units.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Dark Children sub religion. Can heal units. Can inquisition.


Sub Religions:
-The Veneration of Nagash
The Bone Pillar increases the heal rate of Undead units in and adjacent to the city, but decreases the heal rate of living units in and adjacent to the city.
The Temple of Skulls allows all religious units produced in the city to have access to one more spell from The Winds of Death magic.
Units can be sacrificed in cities with a Great Crypt Hall in it to produce an Undead unit (different undead unit depends on sacrificed unit ie sacrificed melee unit = Undead Swordman unit, sacrificed ranged unit = Undead Bowman unit, sacrificed mage unit = Undead Necromancer, mounted sacrifice = Undead Horseman)
These units all have the ‘Bound’ promotion, which means these units must stay within the cultural boarders of cities with Bone Pillars in them. In addition, Acolytes can build tile improvements called a ‘Necromancer’s Tower’ which expand the area that undead built in this way can traverse by 3 squares in each direction.
Priests start with 1 death spell and High Priests start with 2 death spells.
All undead and religious units built in the city with Nagashizzar in it gain the ‘Drain Life’ promotion which allows them to restore their health when they attack.

---Buildings:
Altar= Bone Pillar
Temple= Temple of Skulls
Cathedral= Great Crypt Hall
Monument= Nagashizzar
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Cultist of Nagash
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Dedicate of Nagash
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Great Follower of Nagash (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)





- The Horned Rat
The Great Bells of the Horned Rat creates sounds of pitches which, when heard vary to cause a feeling of happieness in followers of the Horned rat, and in non-skavens, a feeling of woe. Thus, cities with the Great belfry gain +1 Happiness. Cities with a Bell Temple, make enemy units in that cities cultural boarders have 25% less moral, and cities with Chapels of the 13 Bells prevent the building of non Horned Rat sub Religions, and the entering of non Horned Rat religious units into the city, as the sound of the 13 bells ringing constantly causes non believers to cringe in fear and go insane.
The religious units of the Horned rat can travel undetected in enemy lands, and thus can pass cultural boarders at will without causing war. Seers of the Horned Rat also are able to build Screaming Bell tile improvements, which also decrease the moral of non believers within 2 squares of them an additional 15%. Great Seers can spend a few turns to ‘build’ a “Doombell” siege unit. This acts the same as a catapult, but decreases the moral of units attacked a random amount each time. The Doombells act as ‘cargo’ for the Great Seers to ‘carry’ (its actually the other way around) and as such, Doombells MUST stay with Great Seers.

---Buildings:
Altar= Great Belfry
Temple= Bell Temple
Cathedral= Chapel of the 13 Bells
Monument= The Temple of the Horned Rat
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Prophet of the Horned Rat
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Seer of the Horned Rat
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Great Seer of the Horned Rat (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


-The Blood Cult
The Blood Shrine Heals all Vampiric units to full health when they stay in the city for 1 turn. The Blood House enables Blood Pets to be sacrificed to distribute 1 point of those Blood pet’s EXP randomly amongst the Vampires present in the city. The Hall of Blood Rights grants all units built in the city the ‘Vampirism I’ promotion, making them classified as a ‘Vampire.’ these units gain EXP faster, and are able to spread vampirism to those they defeat by creating ‘sub vampire’ 15% of the time, units called Blood Pets, also with the ‘Vampirism I’ promotion. All religious units have the ‘Vampirism’ promotion, but:
Vampire Initiates have the ‘Vampirism I’ promotion (classified as a Vampire, faster EXP gaining, 10% spawning of Blood Pet from victims)
Vampire Priestess’ have the ‘Vampirism II’ promotion (classified as a Vampire, faster EXP gaining, 25% spawning of Blood Pet from victims)
Vampire Queens have the ‘Vampirism III’ promotion (classified as a Vampire, faster EXP gaining, 50% spawning of Blood Pet from victims)

---Buildings:
Altar= Blood Shrine
Temple= Blood House
Cathedral= Hall of Blood Rights
Monument= The Blood Soaked Throne
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Vampire Initiate
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Vampire Priestess
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Vampire Queen (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

- Gods of the Dark Forge
The Chaos Anvil adds +2 hammers to it’s city. The Black Vaults add +2 gold to its city, and also give units produced there the ‘Dark Armour’ promotion (increased defence on all terrain, and bonus Vs Dwarves) the Catacombs of the Dark Ones add +2 Science and +2 magic commerce to the city, it also produces one dispel scroll each turn, which then ‘dies’ at the end of the turn.
The Acolyte of the Dark Forge acts as a Sorcerer normally would, and starts with 1 spell from any wind of magic.
The Priest of the Dark Forge acts as a Sorcerer normally would, and starts with 2 spells from any wind of magic.
The High-Priest of the Dark Forge acts as a Sorcerer normally would, and starts with 3 spells from any wind of magic.

---Buildings:
Altar= Chaos Anvil
Temple= Black Vaults
Cathedral= Catacombs of the Dark Ones
Monument= The Dark Forge
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Acolyte of the Dark Forge
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Priest of the Dark Forge
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- High-Priest of the Dark Forge (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)



Chaos Cults
-Nurgle --- Chaos, Beastmen
-Tzeentch ---Chaos, Beastmen
-Khorne---Chaos, Beastmen
-Slaanesh---Chaos, Beastmen, Dark Elves
-Chaos Undivided---Chaos, Beastmen, Chaos Dwarves


Details of the "Chaos Cults" sub religions:


The "Chaos Cults" Religion:
In General:
Chaos Cults has a Fast Spread rate
with Expensive priests
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be an very High cost, and will have very Good effects.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Chaos Cults sub religion. Can capture defeated enemies as slaves.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Chaos Cults sub religion. Can heal units. Can capture defeated enemies as slaves.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Chaos Cults sub religion. Can heal units. Can inquisition. Can capture defeated enemies as slaves.


Sub Religions:
- Nurgle
Cities with a Nurgle Altar can sacrifice slaves to give one random non deamon unit in the city the “Gift of Nurgle” Promotion (which allows that unit a 20% chance to create a Nurgling from it’s defeated enemies.
The Temple of Nugle allows its city to build Nurglings.
The Hall of Infection allows its city to build Plague Bearers with the ‘Gift of Nurgle’ promotion.
Nurgle Cultists can cast 1 spell from the Nurgle Spells list, Disciples of Nurgle can cast 1 spell from the Nurgle Spells list, Lord-Priests of Nurgle can cast 2 spells from the Nurgle Spells list.
The infernal Pit of Contagion automatically produces a great Unclean One every 80 turns (The Great Unclean One is a world unit)

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Plague
Temple= Temple of Nurgle
Cathedral= Hall of Infection
Monument= Infernal Pit of Contagion
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Nurgle Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Disciple of Nurgle
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Lord-Priest of Nurgle (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Tzeentch
Cities with a Tzeentch Altar can sacrifice slaves to give one random non deamon unit in the city the “Gift of Tzeentch” Promotion (which allows that unitto cast one spell from the Tzeentch magic list).
The Temple of Tzeentch allows its city to build Screamers of Tzeentch. (cause fear)
The Hall of Alteration allows its city to build Horrors of Tzeentch
Tzeentch Cultists can cast 2 spells from the Tzeentch Spells list, Disciples of Tzeentch can cast 3 spell from the Tzeentch Spells list, Lord-Priests of Tzeentch can cast 4 spells from the Tzeentch Spells list.
The Spire of Shifting Chaos automatically produces a Lord of Change every 80 turns (The Lord of Change is a world unit)

Altar= Altar of Change
Temple= Temple of Tzeentch
Cathedral= Hall of Alteration
Monument= Spire of Shifting Chaos
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Tzeentch Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Disciple of Tzeentch
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Lord-Priest of Tzeentch (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Khorne
Cities with a Khorne Altar can sacrifice slaves to give one random non deamon unit in the city the “Gift of Khorne” Promotion (which makes that unit Lust for Blood, and as such gains a movement bonus and strength bonus of 1 for the rest of the game).
The Temple of Khorne allows its city to build Flesh Hounds of Khorne.
The Hall of Blood allows its city to build Bloodletters.
Khorne rAcolytes, Priests and high priests cannot cast any Priest spells or any other spell, and cannot be affected by the Gift of Tzeentch promotion. They do however gain +1, +2, and +3 strength respectively.
The Blood Palace of Skulls automatically produces a Bloodthirster every 80 turns (The Bloodthirster is a world unit)

Altar= Altar of War
Temple= Temple of Khorne
Cathedral= Hall of Blood
Monument= Blood Palace of Skulls
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Khorne Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Disciple of Khorne
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Lord-Priest of Khorne (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Slaanesh
slaves can be sacrificed at the Slaanesh Altar to create a miasma of intoxicating Musk over the city for 5 turns. While this ‘musk’ is in play, all enemy units adjacent to the city are affected by the “stupidity” rule.
The Temple of Slaanesh allows its city to build Daemonettes of Slaanesh.
The Hall of Pleasure allows its city to build Daemonettes on Steeds of Slaanesh.
(both Slaaneshi Deamons have the ‘gift of Slaanesh’ promotion, which gives them an extra first strike, and +1 movement, as well as a 20% chance of seducing a defeated enemy and produce a slave.)
Slaanesh Acolytes, Priests and high priests can cast 1, 2, and 3 spells from the Magic of Slaanesh respectively.
The Harem of Eternal lust automatically produces a Keeper of Secrets every 80 turns (The Keeper of Secrets is a world unit)

Altar= Altar of Desires
Temple= Temple of Slaanesh
Cathedral= Hall of Pleasure
Monument= Harem of Eternal lust
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Slaanesh Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Disciple of Slaanesh
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Lord-Priest of Slaanesh (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Chaos Undivided
All Chaos Undivided buildings produce +1 happiness if another Chaos Cults SR is present in the city. (cancelling out the -1 happiness from competing SR’s) however, all chaos undivided buildings add a cumulative +15% building time to all non Chaos undivided temples and religious units and deamons.
Cities with a Chaos Undivided Altar can sacrifice slaves to give one random non deamon unit in the city the “Gift of Chaos” Promotion (turning it into one random level 1 deamon of any of the 4 Chaos Gods).
The Chaos Temple allows its city to sacrifice deamons to gain 1 population
The 8 Halls of Chaos allows its city to sacrifice slaves to gain +15 instant Magic commerce.
All chaos undivided religious units act exactly as spys, except that instead of espionage, they can convert enemy cities without declaring war.
The Chaos Void automatically produces a Daemon Prince every 80 turns (The Daemon Prince is a world unit)

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Chaos
Temple= Chaos Temple
Cathedral= 8 Halls of Chaos
Monument= The Chaos Void
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Chaos Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Chaos Priest
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Chaos Mutant-Priest (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)



Gods of Law-Cult of Celestial Dragon --- Cathay (Possibly nippon as well?)
-Jintoism --- Nippon (Possibly Cathay as well?)
-Ormazd Pantheon --- Araby, Khemri
-Sigmar --- Empire


Mortal Gods.
-Lady of the Lake --- Bretonnia
-Sigmar --- The Empire
-Ursin --- Kislev
-Cult of Celestial Dragon --- Cathay (they worship their emperors as gods)


Barbaric Gods-Orcs (Gork and Mork)
-Gobbos (Gork and Mork)
-Hobgoblin Hegemony (Worship of the Great Khans?)
-Ogre Lords (The Great Maw)

My current idea for the Religion system:

so, there are the 7 core religions:
-Old Faiths
-Young Gods
-Dark Children
-Chaos Cults
-Gods of Law
-Mortal Gods.
-Barbaric Gods
these all act EXACTLY the same way that normal religions work.
however, these core religions have no temples or priests allocated to them until the civ researches one of the techs that gives access to the many sub religions. i will use the Old Faiths religion as an example:

Ok, so i found the "Old Faiths" in my second city. simple. the old faiths, because its major religious characteristics are that it has a slower spread rate than the other religions, will spread slower (duh). this is pretty crappy until the civ researches one of the 8 techs which allow them to build temples and priests of a certain sub religion.
so next i research the tech which gives me access to "The Followers of isha" sub religion, which in turn allows me to build the Isha specific buildings
-Altar (Sacred Tree),
-Temple (Isha's Grove)
-Cathedral (Oaken Hall)
-Monument (The Tears of Isha),
and the isha specific Priests:
-Acolyte (Handmaiden of Isha),
-Priest (Priestess of Isha),
-High Priest (High Priestess of Quyl-Isha)

however, for the sub religion to be initiated, (ie before the civ can build any of the sub religion's temples or priests), they must first build the monument in a city with the Core Religion, in this case the Tears of Isha must be built in my second city as none of my others have the Old Faiths religion.
once the monument is built, altars can be built in all cities, which also give access to the acolyte, in this case my Handmaidens of Isha. i must build 3 altars before i can start building temples, which means i must expand my empire 1 more city and build an Altar in it. (temples can only be built in cities with an Altar already in them) then i can start building my Temples which allow me to build the Priests, in this case the Priestess of Isha. once i have 3 Temples i can do the same with Cathedrals, (which can also only be built in cities with a temple already in them.) which give access to the High Priests, or my High Priestess of Quyl-Isha.

the temples specific to the Followers of isha religion will have different effectes to those from the Dwarven Pantheon, or the Cult of Khaine. as you can see in my above post. the priests will also be different, with different abilities and magical capabilities, (but with the same base stats or movement and attack)

i was hoping that these sub religions will greatly diversify the religions capabilities, albiet it will make a heck of a lot more work for us. it seems sound to me, but there is just the issue of converting to a different sub religion. i haven't been able to come up with any decent ideas for that.

Did that make sense:confused:




Inquisitors: All High Priests have the "Forced Conversion" promotion, which enables them to 'sacrifice' themselves to gradually remove the buildings from all SR other than their own (1 turn for Altar, 2 turn for temple, 3 turns for Cathedral) and each turn spent dismantling the heathen's temples produces one more cumulative unhappyness which lasts untill all heathen SR asre gone and order is restored. a new mini icon will be seen in the info bar of the city showing how many turns of purging is left. (similar to the timer after a city is captured, but without the culture loss.)

Need to make each main religion unique, with unique effects/ techs/ buildings etc.
Need to decide where religions will be regarding the tech and magic trees.
Need to alter the spread rate of different religions.
Need to make each sub religion unique with uniqe units and buildings.

... and this one :blush:

Yoink! I may as well steal a spot to post new units.

People remember, the ideas actualy have to be feasible no "I want to have to speak down a microphone to be able to cast my spells". Actualy, that would be pretty cool.

i was having a think about leader traits just now, and i came to the conclusion that they are very boring. there isnt any diversity amongst leaders within a civ. take woodelves and high elves for example. both orion and ariel have the same traits, and yet i see them as polar opposites of each other. go figure. and finubar and aenarion are also opposites.
Ariel and Finubar are more peaceful, where as orion and aenaron are more aggressive.

what do other people think. does anyone agree?

I totally agree, the whole point of having several leaders is to have different traits to be able to play in different ways. But its nice for fluff and atmosphere too.
(I havent remarked on this before as I saw the leaders as placeholders and assumed the traits be different in later updates much like the missing text keys)

When playing HE I really missed the Reaver Knights in the early era.
As of now the Horse archers have to do all my dirty work.
Reavers should have high withdrawal chance (elven steeds + fire and flee rule).
I guess the only reason they are not in game is because no one has made graphics for them yet, right?

Concerning the tech tree Id like to see Astronomy earlier in the tree (somehow). Too often I find my armies just standing on my side of some ocean having nothing to do because I dont have that tech.
Is fewer prereqs. or lower cost the way to go?
Besides its silly you need Cannons to make Galleons and Frigates if you are elves for example as they arent using them. Separate ship tech for elves maybe?

Let see, I like to see some nice City Graphics transformation after converstion of a religion, just like what Fall from Heaven have. Now I have Warhammer 40K, and i want to know... is it true that people believe in the emperor like a religion and not believe in the gods that the human worship? I know the chaos believe in the chaos gods religion in 40K. I also found out that the orcs don't believe in any of their gods at all cause they are too interested in the lust for war and battle cause it's their pride. I have not read any of the warhammer books except Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War Ascension, so i don't know much of the warhammer storyline.

If we are making this game based on the books and games as well,then we need to make it relistically just like in the book as well.

neener, this is only the thread for new ideas. go here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=182258 for anything else.

Well since P_L was also asking for new unit ideas I thought it might be pertinent to update the early posts with any of those units I made/make so people don't all suggest the same things. But alright, I won't.

I wouldn't have posted at all but I had nothing else to really say. I accepted quite a while ago that this was someone else's mod and wasn't ever going to turn out how I'd ideally wish it to.

@ neener: no neener, thats fine, really. keep your first post as a unit workshop. like you say, it will show people what we have already decided or not.:)

@ Heruwulfar: well, the way i see the reavers is that they are more advanced than ordinary ancient horse archers. personally i think they belong in the second age, the age of magic.(even though they are not magical). however, here is a list of most of the High elven units and what era they are in, so see if you can figure out a better way, but im not promising anything:)

Worker: Highelf Worker
Ancient Warrior: Highelven Warrior
Ancient Spearman: Highelven Spearman
Ancient Archer: Highelven Archer
Ancient Axeman: Highelven Axeman
Ancient Swordman: Highelven Swordsman
Shaman: Highelven Shamaness
Horse-Archer: High Elven Horse-Archer
Catapult
Chariot: Tiranoc Chariot
Monster I: Pegusus
Scout: Elven Scout
Galley

Age of Magic
Citizen: Citizen-Soldier (Can Upgrade to Lothern Sea Guard as well as militia units)
Militia Spearman: High Elf Spearman
Militia Archer: High Elf Archer
Militia Swordsman: High Elf Swordsman
Light Knight: Ellyrion Reavers
Hedge-Wizard: High Elven Hedge-Wizard
Bolt-Thrower
War Chariot: Tiranoc War Chariot
Monster II: Griffon
Explorer: High Elven Explorer
Caravel: Hawkship

Age of Discovery
Royal Guard: White Lions of Chrace
Pikemen: Phoenix Guard
Longbow: NONE, get Swordmasters of Hoeth
Crossbow- NONE, replaced by Sea Guard
Heavy Knight- Silverhelms
Wizard
Cannon:NONE, replaced by Repeater Bolt Thrower
Galleon: Eagleship
Frigate: Dragonship

Mechanical Age
Cavalry: NONE, get Dragonprinces instead
Musketman: NONE, replaced by Shadow Warriors in the Age of Discovery
Monster III: Emperor Dragon
Ironclad: NONE, replaced by Merwyrm
Special Unit: High Elven Sorcerer


@ Darkedone: if you look in my sig i am currently making unique city art for all the races. so far i have finished the woodelves, and am 3/4 the way throug the highelves. i have also made a start on the dark elves, (but they are very difficult:() so i expect you could see it in the game in the future, after i have done several races.
i personally dont thing city art change every religion change should be in WH. thats a unique FfH attribute, and i dont think we should steal that from them too:)
Also, we are trying to make the mod as accurate as we can with the armybooks for Warhammer fantasy (Darkedone, please take note that Warhammer fantasy and Warhammer 40K are 2 TOTALLY separate games and the lore for both are different. because of this, i would apreciate it if you asked your 40k related questions in a 40k related thread. i forgot to mention that in the first post.:) please dont do it again;))

EDIT: i have added a list of leaders and traits in the second post. i think we need to rework alot of them :(

@P_L: So there will be a unique Horse archer for the HE (and other races?) with custom graphics and all? If so it would feel more like a pre-reaver unit and I would be more than satisfied :D
Thought of what unit the Reavers would replace (H archer or L knight) and I think you have made the right choise.

BTW how come you can use Sonne in the intro, surely it must be under some copyright or another or how does that work?

From first page of main forum: "-Every unit will be UU"
I guess that answers my first question :mischief:

How about having 3 traits per Leader?
One would be the race trait - all leaders of that race would have have this trait (so all elvish leaders share 1 trait, all human leaders, all greenskin leaders...)

One would be a normal trait, similar to those in vanilla but different

One would be a negative trait. This would make it fun as you would have leaders with a very good positive trait, and an awful bad trait and you could have another leader with two so-so traits, making it balanced. It would also be easier to come up with ideas for traits if some of them are negative.

I wouldn't have posted at all but I had nothing else to really say. I accepted quite a while ago that this was someone else's mod and wasn't ever going to turn out how I'd ideally wish it to.
Well you can allways say what you like to see in the mod, you're a teammember after all so I'd say this should be "your" mod as well-meaning ours I hope;)

hey people, i just wanted to say i like this mod very much and i'm looking forward for the warlords version

as it's a mod based primarily on units, maybe would be cool to incorporate the mod component from total realism (i don't know the exact name of this component) that brings this "unit support" thing, you know, units on the same stack support each other, melee units give some bonus to other units on the same stack, siege units another kind of bonus, and so on ...

cheers

Well you can allways say what you like to see in the mod, you're a teammember after all so I'd say this should be "your" mod as well-meaning ours I hope;)

Well, all I meant was that when I first joined the team I was going to ask you all whether you'd envisioned the mod being either a Civ 4 game set in the Warhammer universe, or a Warhammer game set in the Civ 4 game engine. If you see what I mean by that. Personally I think I'd rather see the latter, with a clear focus on one particular time period and the intricacies of combat rather than stretching it out over thousands of year's of empire-building. To put it another way, if you've played Firaxis' Chinese Unification mod from Warlords, that's almost exactly how I envisioned the mod working.

But I think I'm in the minority with that. I mean, after all, I imagine this forum has more Civ fans than Warhammer fans! So I quickly resigned myself to being a worker rather than an ideas man. And as I've said before, once the mod is working as a normal 'vanilla'-style Civ mod, there's no reason we can't make scenarios that work like the Chinese Unification later. :)

Yep, that shouldn't be no problem at all and it's even part of the design. Also we need to get this mod more scenariofriendly imo. Because of that the techtree will probably have to be revised. I want it to roughly represent Warhammerhistory in order to have it easily plugable for scenariomakers for different eras. Any idea how to achieve that and keep a normal longtimescale fun to play at the same time would be highly appreciated.

@ Olleus: i agree with you here. 1 racial trait, 1 positive trait, and 1 negative trait per leader would be great. what do everyone else think? if we all agree, then we might as well start thinking up traits and what they do:)

@ neener and ploe: i think scenarios would be brilliant. but that would be somwthing for the future wouldnt it?

@ vicentiko: well, we have support fire for archers and other ranged units, like in Civ 3, where the archers in the stack attack the enemy before the combat starts. but i think that would alos be a good addition. do we have that planned Ploe?

About the total realism. Is it Dales Combat Mod? If so I'd say no. That Modcomp is nice but won't work well together with our design.
Scenarios are of course future stuff but the basic mod will be made allways with making scenarios in mind. The complete list of civs will i.e. depend largly on a good worldmap when we finally get one. And I can imagine designing special abilities for civs depending on the environment they start in WH-World.
About traits my opinion is that we shouldn't stick to a fixed number. We just have to make sure it gets balanced. Example civ 1 get two positive traits. civ 2 gets three positive and one negative, civ 3 gets one positive, one powerful and one negative etc.
I know balancing gets harder that way but we have more freedom to design civs flavourful and for the balancing we have the communityplayers after all- giving feedback about it I hope.

On the civics change as well, i wonder if you are going to add in health, education, and other things that are not in there as well.

well, i think we were only going to have a few civic options, namely:

Government

Military

Labor

Economy

Religion

Knowledge

I wonder if there will be a new mod component that allows you to see what any of your citys been doing like a newspaper article. See if there was any recent things going on and see who got assassainated... even reports of dead empires and gone to war... I like to see some letter articles of this.

well, i think we were only going to have a few civic options, namely:

Government

Military

Labor

Economy

Religion

Knowledge

That is good, are you going to place in some religious things in there for only that empire? something like a special civic for that race that only they could use, other people cannot use that cause it's invisible to them and they don't have what they have.

I think we were planning on having some civ specific civics if thats what you mean. i think olleus wanted one called 'Teefs' under economy for the Orcs:)

About the newspaper thing, i dont think we will do that. i notice you have posted this in heaps of different mod threads and you have already mentioned it to us:p but you probably just forgot;)
Personally, i think that newspaper would be too much effort for something that would give the player minor enjoyment. (plus i dont think that newspapers would really fit the warhammer world;))
However, thats not to say that if YOU manage to get it working, then we may consider it. but thats a really big 'may':p

We started discussing the dwarfs in the private forum a couple of days ago, and i wanted to see if anyone here has any ideas about them.

Hey guys just my 2 bob worth on the traits

High elves:

High elves are from my reading of the background not very creative, they were but their society is now stagnant. They have hardly changed since the old ones left the world they have not needed to create much of what was needed... since alot of what they had the old ones had given them

Seafaring i would recomend highly you need only look at the world map for Warhammer to notice exactly where they had inhabbited prior to the war of the beard and their rather big fall from grace...

Aenarion from memory was the first of the Phoneix kings and Finubar was called the Seafarer so in line with my own thinking...

Leader 1: Aenarion (old school elf)
Traits: Spiritual (elves are deeply religous but in a different way to humans.. long life plays a part) , Defensive (isolationism would be a better word for this) , Seafaring (prior to the war of the beard they had colonies everywhere and still maintain a very powerful fleet)

Leader 2: Finubar
Traits: Seafaring (Finubar was the first Phoneix king to let human traders trade directly with Ulthanlan), Financial (this goes hand in hand with Seafaring Ulthanlan is a very rich place with vast amounts of natraul resources), Philosophical perhaps (elves have a lot of time on their hands...)
Leader 3: Techilis and Tyrion (spelling, and not sure of response...)

Empire:

The empire is really just a collection of city states and states in theory it is one nation... but just flicking through the background one notices the war of 3 emperors (just prior to the great war against chaos). The destruction of the world was narrowly avoided by Magnus the pious :) so hes a great leader. Karl Franz is also a great leader in current warhammer... (no word for it that i can think of..) he is the current Elector Emperor as well as being Elector of Altdorf :king:. The empire is a collection of states feudal rather than imperial the electors need only answer a call to arms from the Emperor and from my reading they can ignore it if they dont like it. To elect and Emperor there are 14? electors the 2 archlectors of Sigmar the High priest of Sigmar the High priest of Ulric? the elder of moot (Halfling) and the rest are the electors themselves. So in reality the empire isnt really a single unified state so imperialism doesnt really fit in terms of the background in terms of the game play it fits quite well :)

Leader 1: Magnus the pious
Traits: Spiritual (the pious says it all... he was a champion of sigmar and killed Ashovar Kel :eek:) Aggressive (he led the armies of the Empire and Kislev to Kislev to lift the siege of Kislev by chaos (lol that was to many Kislevs) and he won a resounding victory and made the wastes a bit safer for a while :D , just a suggestion would it be possible to have a trait that would add + modifiers to the diplomancy bar...? (to represent he was on good terms with the Dwarves (defended Kislev city), High Elves, Kislev and Bretonnia (they sent a crusade but it was a bit late from memory)

Leader 2: Karl Franz
Traits: Agricultural (represents the huge amount of Agricultural growth that has occured during his reign), Industrious (shows that the industry of the Empire is improving and the potential output is higher. During the Storm of Chaos, Nuln's furnaces were burning non stop to create cannons, mortars and hellblaster volley guns) Financial (the empire was during the earliest part of his reign the strongest it had been :king:)

Leader 3: Sigmar/Valten not sure what you think about that...

Thats my 2 bobs worth would be happy to supply any infomation you wish i have a great memory and have read a scary amount of the background

Next installment Darkelves and Lizardmen very happy with what you have done with the mod keep at it hope this load of drivel :crazyeye: helps

Of course Rhye style civilization bonuses would really be cool Industrious giving bonuses to building units of X amount of sheilds would rock :king: etc keep at it

Hey Masada, i think that was a little more than 2 bobs:p

I like many of your suggestions, especially for the empire.

For aenarion, what do you think about arcane? i mean, he was the first phoenix king, but he was also technically a demi-god. he also agreed to let the highelf sorceres cast the vortex spell which drained the world of its excess magic and made ulthuan stabe again.

also, what do you mean high elves arnt creative :crazyeye: they seem the most cultured out of any race in the warhammer world to me. sure the old ones gave them stuff, but they kept on being cultured even after they left.

about the third leaders: i think we are only going to hev 2 leaders / civ for now. maybe later down the road we can add more, but for now i think its just 2:) but that said, teclis, tyrion, sigmar and valten are all going to be heroes (uber units) in the game, so they will still get a representation.

i agree with all your suggestions on the empire, and i will put them in the second post.

thanks for the great feed back, and id love to hear more of that "drivel" as you put it :lol:

There is a difference between culture and just being cultured... the high elves are not just in ivory towers they live in ivory skyscrappers.. their culture hasnt changed since the old ones left the world they are trapped in time unable to adapt and completly unwilling to. They are cultured by comparison to all the other races but they havent progressed.

Aenarion should be arcane and hopefully when you impliment a functioning magic system it would benifit that :) really arcane giving science is a bit funny to me but i can understand why that is in there for game terms. Maybe remove defensive (isolationism)

And thanks Psychic_Llamas for the encouragement been reading the previous forums with a bit of a frown but thats been turned upside down keep at it :king:

Aggressive:
free promotion (combat 1) for melee and gunpowder units.
double production speed of Barracks, drydock, siegeweapons workshop

Split into different traits... State military moral bonus to melee when introduced, range units first strike, artillery should have better bombard cavalry combat 1 and flanking

Used by Empire to lazy to rewrite it properly after my comp died right before i was going to post... but civilized nations

Warlike: Melee combat 1 & 2 Cavalry combat 1 and flanking

Used by Chaos etc both of these hopefully would make the fighting styles a bit different when attacked by Chaos in force Kislev should retreat behind its walls and wait for its allies to help it.. Chaos should try and lure them out and then beat them senseless a bit more like the background

Arcane:
+10% Science (cheaper mages and spells when introduced)

Philosophical:
+100% greatpeople birth rate
double production speed of university (+ modifier to like minded nations and - to non like minded nations)

Spiritual:
no anarchy
double production speed of temples (cheaper priests Warrior priests of Sigmar, Death guard of Morr etc)

Elementalist: Arabia only?
?? cheaper elementals (arabia uses them alot) and extra food from desert squares

Agricultural:
+1 health / city
+1 food on plots with 3 food already.
(cheaper peasants and the ability to raise militia 1 or 2 strength but guerilla 1 & 2 and if possible tie them to the national borders they wouldnt leave the country, acts like conscription but doesnt cost pop and doesnt cause unhappyness spawn on a regular turn count)

Imperial:-50% Civic upkeep
+1 culture / city (replace scout with a pioneer some worker abilities road building fort building and maybe clear forest..? same movement)

Exspansive:
+2 Health / city
double production speed of granary, harbour. (cheaper working boats and cheaper workers?)

Hidden:
?? (some units are hidden and able to move through no ROP nations but return to your land if war is declared... (wood elves moving from enclave to enclave)


Creative:
+50% great people birth rate
+1 culture / city
double production speed of bloodbowl stadium, theatre (better high level weapons cheaper or something requires a certain type of perverse creativity to create a steam tank or a hellblaster volley gun)

Industrious:
+1 hammer on plots with 3 hammers already
double production speed of forge (better movement on roads)

Financial:
+1 gold on plots with 2 gold already
double production speed of bank (

Defencive:
Free promotion (homeland) for recon, archery, mounted and melee units. PERFECT!! of course Isolationism sounds better to me AHAHAHAHAHA


Friends of the woods:
+2 health / city. better attack when attacking into woods and better defense

Orgagnized:-50% Civic upkeep
double production speed of courthouse, lighthouse (cheaper unit maintinance)

Greenskins:-60% civic upkeep
-10% science (unit cost what unit cost i want horde armies)

Seafaring:
Free promotions: (combat I, navigation I, sentry) for naval units. PERFECT

Of course these wont all be possible to impliment next installment of Masada Rant is Lizardmen and Darkelves... thats if i dont get sidetracked and think of anything else to add to the traits, Religion and civics look pretty to many choices.....NOOOOOOOO

Other traits.. something along the line of

constant war (reduce shield count on units and upkeep cost)

Sacred spawnings (lizardmen) X amount of turns lizardmen elite units spawn from buidlings... since the slann dont really control the spawnings they just spawn.. Skinks however could be built

Civ ideas... (for Warhammer Map)

Skaven: in line with skavenness would it be possible to allow them to build cities in mountains and swamps/marshes and for their units to be hidden? there food would also come from those combine that with hidden culture borders (if possible) and that would a really fun civ to play

Will if time permits have a bit of a go at making a map for warhammer would involve most likely twisting an existing map of the world with an enlarged Europe (Warhammer map is really just our world a bit more gothic)

That could also apply to dwarfs in the background alot of their food comes from inside or around the mountains very few dwarf cities are built in the lowlands there borders would be open to see and it might make them a bit more difficult to attack...?

I would also propose to combine Chaos+Norsca into a single civ and give them 2 settlers at the start for both starting areas... while the Norse are not really chaosy they still worship it and the difference is minimal. Chaos should really also be locked at war with the Empire, Kislev, High elves and Darkelves of course this would offset by there traits (yet to be made) and there position in game

Orcs should also be locked at war with everyone and really strectching it i would be possible to unite goblins and hobgoblins under the single civ Orcs and Goblins? would reduce civ count and make life a fair bit more interesting and would offset the fact they are at war with everyone

the Empire and Kislev could also be locked at peace representing there special relationship with each other

impressive list:)

Im a little confused as to what you mean when you say Aggressive should be split into two. why? and what benefit would two traits serve?

I was hoping for arcane to give all magical units built the ability to start of with a free spell, or experience. and also having cheeper mages and spells would be good.

I personally think philosophical should not be touched. 100% great people points is uber powerful, and if we add extra diplomatic relations to it, it will be the ultimate trait.;)

i think spiritual should actually DO something. i never liked the no anarchy 'bonus', it seems too small a benifit. perhaps making all religious base buildings and wonders, and units double speed would be good.

I think elementalist would be good for araby, but also for katarin of Kislev, as she is the Ice Queen of kislev. so perhaps a benefit from desert, ice, ocean, and mountain tiles would be good, representing the power they have over the elments of earth air fire and water.

i like your ideas on agricultural. perhaps we could make peasants able to build farms as a side bonus too.

good idea for the pioneer for imperial.:)

i dont know what you mean with what you said about hidden, sorry :sad:

I think creative should stay 50% great people and +1 culture, and then have another trait called "INVENTIVE" which makes better high level weapons cheaper or something, which requires a certain type of perverse creativity to create a steam tank or a hellblaster volley gun. would be good for dwarves, chaos dwarves and empire.

can you explain why you think defensive should be isolationism? personally i think that should be a civic, not a trait.

I agree that greenskins should have a reduced unit cost.

perhaps 'constant war' would be better being combined in with a warfare civic instead.

Im not sure about sacred spawnings, that dosnt sound like a trait, :p



About the skaven, i agree with you, i would love to see skaven as a playable civ, but i think they will be one of the last to be implemeted.:(


Keep the great ideas flowing :thumbsup:

erg just lost my 2 pages of a reply... something went wrong when i went to post it.... will type it up tommorow

erg just lost my 2 pages of a reply... something went wrong when i went to post it.... will type it up tommorow scrap that i will type a bit quickly

arcane: i agree it should
should be a trait called Scientific (not a great deal of warhammer tech is magical in origin)
philosophical : your right about that
spiritual: should also aid in building priests (Death guard of Morr anyone, Warrior priests of Sigmar, Priests of Taal, Bear Priests or Ursun and Slaan mage priests need i say more...
elementalist: would also be great for Lizardmen they sunk a full fleet of Cathayan war junks with a typhoon might help with jungle issues...
agricultural: yeah
imperial: should compliment the base ability
hidden: allows a unit to move through players land they dont have right of passage with and they should be hidden like a spy or at least some units (Wood elves, Beastmen, Amazons and Skaven in looking at you..) Wood elves have settlements in Drakwald Forest (why i dont know) the Forest of Shadows as well as Athel Lorien but they also have others...
creative and inventive im sold
defensive and Isolationism should be different defensive as it is and Isolationism should be better but you should suffer - diplomatic relations with other civs

Chaos: constant war: should be a civic units should X% cheaper but you should be locked at war with everyone and unable to change to other civics?

Brettionia: Crusades: every X turn you should be able to raise a crusade in your cities get X amount of Peasants and X amount of men-at-arms and X amount of Knights (questing grail etc) no unhappyness etc but hight maintinece costs

The Empire: State armies: units X and Y should be cheap to make and cost no maintinence till X amount is made... but X amount of units must be in cities pops X and Y otherwise you face massive unhappyness... no one wants there boys to defend another state *shudders*

Sylvania: Undeath: units X and Y enslave they unit but turn it into them but they should be really expensive to make in cities

Lizardmen: sacred spawnings every X turns minor wonders (allowed X per X amount of cities) X and Y generate units X and Y Saurus. Skinks should be buildable but not some they have special spawnings to but shouldnt be so difficult to get in numbers

Still have to address Agressive but that will be for tommorrow

(My spelling sucks i know please dont tell me. I dont use much punctuation but thats a personal choice really... otherwise thx Physic_Llamas for the response

Ok, cool, im going to add those changes to the traits in the secon post now.

your right about spiritual.
i agree about the lizardmen being elementailsts too.
ok, i see what you mean about hidden now, sorry:)
i think i could live with separate traits for defensive and isolationist.
---isolationist should also get - in forign trade as well as in diplomatic relations. they could but anable to use openboarder agreements, but have a big defensive bonus
---defensive could be a small defense bonus, and castles and walls are cheaper to build, and all archer and gunpowder units start with the city garrison 1 promotion? too powerful?

@ Ploe, how much of the civics need adjustment? what need changing, is it ok if we brainstorm heaps of new civics?

constant war, i think that should be a very late civic, for after when chaos get stronger. but once they change to that civic, therre is no going back. units should all become much cheaper. good idea:)

crusades sounds like it would be good for a wonder ro bretonia. that would be one kick ass wonder :D

State armies could be interesting. im not sure how that would work though.

Undeath could be a unit promotion, like the werewolf promotion in FfH, but it should be a % chance of raising the enemy as a skeleton, zombie or goule. shold only be given to vampires, undead spell casters, and gouls and heroes.

The sacred spawnigs would also be a kick ass wonder :D
perhaps once it is built it will randomly spawn X number of a random unit in a random city (where X is half the number of cities owned) avaliable to the civ at that time, but will only occure every few turns, say every 10 turns.

PS, your spellings not bad :) mine was worse

i just think that it would be cool if every civic had a drawback :) it might make for interesting playing

Rhye poisoned me with his traits... i see crusades as a part of Brettonia the king might maintain an army to defend the realm most of the time... but in times of need he calls together his dukes, who call together their earls, who call together their knights, who call together thier men at arms and peasants come to pay of their taxes... i see it as a trait every X amount of turns Brettonia can call use a free conscription (call to crusade) to get X amount of knights from city size Y and X amount of men at arms and peasants as well but they cost alot to keep in the field... after all people need to be payed and feed so its just as a failsafe you use it only when A) your in trouble or B) you need soldiers to lay down the smacketh

Combine it with Agricultral (with changes :eek: ) and you (Lol they are not argricultral... :crazyeye: what about all the peasants :lol: ) have the ability to call together a fairly large amry sure most of its rabble but hey... there only peasants

Add Spiritual to the mix and guess what you get cheaper damsels (they are priests sorta...) so you can have a huge army and lots of magic... off course the bulk of your army sucks and you dont have access to siege weapons but a massive stack of peasants (with no upkeep) has about the same effect... so then you smash them using your knights which have run the amount you earn in gold a turn to -200 but after you attack that city you are only running at -20 :eek: thats the idea at any rate

Sorry to say it but Warhammer is gothic fantasy :king: BRING ON PEASANT SIEGE WEAPONS of which you need 20 to equal a cannon but oh well... they are after all only peasants :lol:

:lol: i just had a picture of Gilles le Breton's squire saying "the peasants are revolting" and then gilles saying, "yes i know theyre revolting, tell me something new." :lol:

Thats actually starting to sound good :D
perhaps if we changed the name a little, so it sound more traitish, like, "crusader".

So the "Crusader" trait allows the civ to conscript units without causing any unhappyness, but everytime the civ conscripts a unit, a GROUP of X number of units appears. (where X is Half the population size of the city they were conscripted from) generally only peasants, but sometimes a knight, will appear. these units have tripple upkeep cost, and therefore the owner cannot use them all the time, only in times of dire need, or when they have heaps of money, or when, how you so fittingly put it: "you need soldiers to lay down the smacketh":lol:
occasionally, if to conscript a unit from the capital, a Questing knight can have a chance of appearing instead of an ordinary knight (this is probably getting too complex, but its a cool idea :D)
And instead of disbanding peasants, we could give them the ability to be reterned to the population of the city, so they are 'sacrificed' to add one population to the city.

I like it:D, what do other people think?

Do you suggest that Gilles' traits are Crusader, Agricultural, and Spiritual? .(i would prefer Organised instead of Agricultural)

organized instead of agricultural man peasants... ahhh but if you change the traits i can see what your getting @

Warhammer is really just a parody of historyX10 in the gothic bits...

im not sure how easy it would be to program..l. but if it wasnt to hard it would be possible to add that sort of trait (a unique one) for each civ

Kislev: Pulks
Empire: state armies
Lizardmen: sacred spawning

etc whatever they do just to catch the feeling of Warhammer in all its gothic majesty :king:

going to have a look at creating a warhammer map.... got the material to do it as well i think...

well, i think Ploe and olleus wanted to have a racial trait for each leader, so that shouldnt be hard to do.

Whats 'Pulks' ?

PS, goodluck with the map:)

Pulks: Are the way in which Kislevites armies are oraganized... normally Kislevite nobles are left to defend themselves against Chaos but in times of great incursions they are forced to organize themselves better and they form Pulks and Grand Pulks (i think there called) they can just range from a small group of nobles to the grand Pulk of the Tzarzinas in which every noble sends soldiers, the Tzarzinas household guard gets ready to ride (it garrisons Kislev normally) and they call in the friendly nomads. Doesnt often happen that they call everyone together but it happened during the latest chaos incursion :eek:.

Will add more detail to it in a later post

Not sure how to represent it in game though...

Brief History of the Empire... just to show exactly how fractious it is... and why it isnt really a single nation

Birth of Sigmar Unknown heralded by twin tailed comet

Age 15 saves Dwarf King Kurgan Ironbeard gifted with Ghal Maraz

sometime later unites tribes and defeats orcs at Blackfire pass

Year 1 of the Imperial calender Sigmar is crowned Emperor (doesnt include Kislev to far away but they are friendly to Sigmar much the same with Brettonia)

Sigmar rules 32 years till he leaves to the east

year 73 Johan Helstrum becomes first priest of Sigmar

1111 (empire in trouble during intrim) Black Plauge for 4 year 9 out of 10 die

1115 Boris Goldgather dies (hated)

1124 Mandred Ratcatcher drives out rats beasts

when Mandred dies the empire descends into civil war killed by rat beasts...

Empire divided into 2 parts Electorate Emperors and Ottilian Emperors of Tabecland division started in 1360 during which time Empress Ottilia (first empress?) rules for a brief time

1547 another claiment to the throne enters the fray the Count of Middenheim proclaimed himself Emperor in the name of Ulric the wolf god

Age of three Emperors massive civil war

1707 Gorbad Ironclaw defeats count Eldred of Solland, destroys Solland and takes his Runefang (sword of office of an elector count but also really powerful (not in game terms *cry*) sacks, defeats count of Wissenland at the battle of Grunberg (to the south of Altdorf) besieges Altdorf Sigismund killed the Electorate Emperor killed by a great beast... Orcs defeated (YAY)

1979 Margritta of Marienburg becomes Empress of the Electors, Grand Theogonist strikes it down counts say it is there right only but they abide by the choice (still a civil war)

1999 Mordheim destroyed by twin tailed comet (divine wrath)

Around this time Vlad Von Carstein becomes a vampire and attacks empire in 2010

Mannfred Von Carstien (why he isnt a leader in the mod is a bit bizzare :lol:) is killed in 2145 last of Von Carstiens (thank Sigmar) at Hel Fen

2302 stuff begins to go bad heralding chaos great incursion, attack across River Lynsk (Kislev) and destroy Praag, no emperor (still civil war). The people turn to Magnus of Nuln later called Magnus the pious. Wrote books like "On the hundred names of evil" and speeches like "The overthrow of Chaos" and "Sigmar's people" elector counts decide to follow him and all of them march to fight chaos (a long time since they had done anything together). Battle of the gates of Kislev (city) Magnus and the men of the empire and the Tzar of Kislev and a large force of Dwarves (from Karaz a Karak) vs Chaos with all the various manifestations of Chaos... Chaos is defeated and its power is broken for a generation. He also legalizes magic to combat chaos, elven wizards Fineir, Yrtle and Techlis start schools of magic and create the 8 order, Light (light magic), Golden (metals), Jade (life), Grey (shadow), Celestial (heavens), Amethyst (death), Bright (fire) and the Amber (beasts) all of which have headquarters in Altdorf

2304 Magnus is elected Emperor (even though he isnt an elector, its demanded by the people) and makes his capital Nuln :crazyeye:. First sole emperor in almost a thousand years he rebuilds the empire.

2429 Marienburg buys its independance from Emperor Dieter IV he was deposed for it. Wilhelm Prince of Altdorf is elected emperor.

2502 Karl Franz son of Wilhelm is elected Emperor destroys Orc attack at Blackfire pass and ushers in era of imperial glory

next issue is the war against Chaos "What were (nations) they doing" special mention to Brettonia who did nothing...

Will work on thinking of unique traits for each civ… also gathering material for a map or for someone else to do it

Just two words: Thx for your ideas Masada. Even if I don't respond to everything. Anyone posting ideas here can be assured I'll have a close look at the postings here and consider them.
About Trait Arcane: +10 science is only temporary. We are planning to introduce a magic commerce with a separate "techtree" for magic abilities(winds of magic) so later this trait is supposed to let the winds of magic blow stronger and possibly have other effects on magic as well. But that's future talk right now.

I don't think I will use a diplomatic trait for any of the civs. Instead I'll try to set the AI to values that make all civs hating or loving each other as they are supposed to. Any general diplobonus would only make this task harder.

If you want to discuss civics I suggest to wait for the warlordsversion so you can see what's already in there. Just the last civicoption "knowledge" could need some suggestions right now. Civics should be as generic as possible though.

My suggestions for now:
Ancient Wisdom(default)
Covens
Academies(tech philosophy)
Religious Schools(tech monasticism)
Military Schools(tech military tradition)

These civics should mainly represent how the societies elite is mainly educated and/or knowledge is preserved.

thx Ploeperpengel im just shooting ideas around left right and center maybe something will take root... maybe it wont but oh well :D

Good idea about not having generic "good" "neutral" "evil" because in warhammer it doesnt really work... Chaos is evil but Chaos doesnt get along with Greenskins even though greenskins are evil (in a racial sense so is it really evil?)

so rather than good etc warhammers style is different ... with Chaos including the Horde of Chaos, Beastmen, Chaos dwarfves etc even then they dont always get along...

:crazyeye: its not high fantasy (anymore) thank god for that its gothic and its (thank god) not clear cut

Education is right :lol: not sure about covens unless its an evil tech? what about home education (call it governors or something along those lines)

going to need to buy warlords to play the new version but oh well had to do it sometime...

no map making for me :D Phyhic_Lhamas has that under control i hope :D

Sorry, why would covens be evil?? :crazyeye: is it because witches work in covens? because thats a very common misconception that witches are evil. in the real world whitches DO NOT worship satan, they worshipnature and the living world, they are infact the most peaceful group of people, and is one of the most peaceful philosophies in the world, alnongside buddism. Sorry, had to say that :p

Nice to hear from ya Ploe;):p Ok ill try to stick to religion and education with the civics :) I like those education civics so far, have you thought of anything for them to do yet? or should we brainstorm that?

@ Masada: thats alot of interesting background on the Empire and Kislev. i have the Empire rule book, and i didnt know that :crazyeye: i should really go through that again.
However, the imperialistic trait isnt supposed to represent the entire time period, only the period of that ruler (thats what traits are:) ), i personally see Karl Franz and magnus as imperialistic, as magnus helped reconstruct the empire, and franz is soldifying it.

You can brainstorm about those I haven't decided yet what exactly they should do and suggestions are allways helpers here;)

Psychic_Llamas witches in warhammer were persecuted because they used the winds of magic which is Chaos incarnate... up until the reign of Magnus Sigmarite templars including the reiksguard (which is a templar order) to lazy to look up others hunted down witches... not through ignorance (well in part) but because they were a danger to the Empire one only needs to look at the Vampire Counts to undestand exactly why they were anti magic.

Karl Franz and Magnus the Pious are not imperialistic in an expansionist sense that the current trait represents they centralised power in the hands of the Emperors but i stress they are not absolute monarchs... they are representitive monarchs they represent the ultimate arbiters between the elector counts and they control in part the executive part of the empire as well as nessacary functions (post offices etc). They do not exercise any authority inside the various provinces and city states they hold some powers. In fact the empire is just a loose confederation of states "united by common culture and language" Empire army book. They are not a single nation Elector Counts fight between themselves as a matter of course they fight the myriad or minor problems (beastmen, chaos covens!! and cults, orcs, goblins etc) themselves it takes a big problem to draw them all together and even so they fight as independant armies they dont mix they may follow a battle plan but that will be ordered as such Reikland army do this, Stirland contingent do this etc...

They are not a nation in a modern sense nor are they governed by an absolute monarchy the central goverment is shaky to say the least. Karl Franz is a statesmen not a dictator he doesnt order the counts around he tries to form a consensus. Magnus was just there at the right time to and the people FORCED the electors to elect him Emperor it is the first time they had ever raised someone from out side there ranks to Emperor (i dont think he even had a runefang) For a historical example look at the holy roman empire for the empire is based on

(not meant to sound condesending or anything of that nature though it might...)

Oh and very little of that is in the Empire book... its really on has a dodgy excuse of a timeline :mad:

thx Ploeperpengel will brainstorm now :lol:

I dont think god would have looked kindly on people buring other people for stupid stuff... but i still dont think we have learnt that its just the reasons that have changed... :(

Military Schools: well thats really a no-brainer only think it could amp is up is the military :) could also provide a science boost to agressive, defensive, industrious civs since they tend to spend a bit of money on the possibility of new military inventions... also funny that alot of civilian inventions are from the military and military schools tended to turn out some weird things...

Examples: Engineering schools in Altdorf and the Engineering school in Nuln (they make the weapons for which i play Empire :D hellblasters :crazyeye: 30 strength 5 taken at -3 for the enemies armour saves... chariots what chariots? oh i got an enfillade shot through your whole unit of chariots? Sorry :lol: well be assured you can only do that to Tomb Kings of Khermi :lol: i love cannons even the cannon balls bounce in happyness)

Some other ideas... lyceum are cavalry schools for officers, academies tend to be for infantry and well navies tended not to have them till last century instead they utilized Midshipmen (officers in training)

Should probably be left for organized civs with the infrastructure to use them... Greenskins and Beastmen using military acadimies :crazyeye: even Brettonia would be a bit dodgy they are not educated at schools instead they follow the medievil idea of tutors... and really they spend there whole life training for war Squire (guess you could consider it a student role they dont fight...), Knights Errant, Knight of the Realm, Questing Knight, Grail Knights (Living saints now... complete with halos and OMG glowing eyes :crazyeye: ) and well Estalia (spain... well similar to Brettionia im not really sure) Tilea would have military schools but tutors would be more common (Italian city states) adn the rest well......? Lizardmen make soldiers and leaders... Sylvania is led by vampires and doesnt require courage... they are dead... Khemiri? well by the time your mod starts they are allready sorta dead... (i think) and they are similar to Sylvania but their soldiers are not compulsed to do it they do it because of a sick sense of duty... a judgement call really for the rest

Religious Schools: well most would have this somewhere... Chaos, Greenskins etc well i dont even know if they have education... but hey.... bonus to military and priests? and science? military could get religous upgrades Zealotism 1 and 2? or Zeal 1 and 2? or Intolerance 1 and 2? :lol:

Academies: similar to both Millitary and Religous schools... they tended to teach the same stuff...
(scrap it maybe?)

Covens=EVIL tech.... well chaosy tech i guess other nations could adopt it... high elves? but it would be a limited tech.. at least in terms of civs... but it should boost mages since they tend to congregate secretly...

Ancient Wisdom? Spoken Lore? Traditions? (i dont know Ancient Wisdom is a bit dumb to me...) nothing just stock standard... hard to keep things active in an oral manner (alot gets lost over time as stories stop being popular etc) or if people invade your nation and wreck your culture... :mad:

Tutors should be in there... replace Academies..? no idea what it would do in game? arrogance 1 and 2?, selfish 1 and 2?, contempt 1 and 2?, hatred of learning 1 and 2 :lol:

Hmmm and Gifted Knowlegde? (Lizardmen, Sylvania, Khemari, Orgres...) they all sorta are either born with it (Lizardmen)... absorb it (ogres) or never really have any... (Sylvania, Khemari sorta..) Oh and Khemari has been undead since Nagash which was a couple of thousand years before Sigmar...

About covens: this really isn't an evil tech it's for druids and witches yes but in times before Sigmar was declared a god where the old faith was stronger in the old world I think covens would fit well even for the Empire(Unberogens).

About academies your right though. Allthough I was thinking of platos academy not modern academies I forgot that platos academy really was an exception. Tutors indeed where more common in ancient as well as medieval times.

Anyway I think I could simply use similar civics like FFH and include Apprenticeship.

The old faith was really just confined largely to Albion even during the time of Sigmar it had died out of the old world proper. In reality druids never participated in covens (good old romans made them look evil) Before Sigmar was a god (he was never declared a god it devolped) Unberogens worshipped Taal, Urlic and the other gods... but not the old gods (think Gog and Madgog for what the old gods were like, not the panthoen of gods that currently exist)

The real old gods are way before that and the Unberogens were just a single tribe in the empire... not even the most powerful till Sigmar united them they came from what is now the electorate of Reikland and the other Electorates are made up of the range of other tribes...

Taal and Ulric in some places in the empire have a stronger following than Sigmar.. its a pantheon system believing in 1 god does not rule out the existance of the others... even Brettionia's belive in the other gods they may not be as popular or in there eyes as powerful as the lady but Brettionias are bit weird anyways...

Priests of Taal might be sorta like druids be they do not consider themselves druids. Druids are the servants of the old old gods which is now limited to Albion. Jade wizards are in the same boat... they look like druids they act like druids however they are not druids its all rather messy... but i dont think covens is really a good thing it has negative connatations... replace it with something like Undestanding of Nature or something else neutral... but thats just me

Last note... there are 2 forms of worshipping the old gods... Albion worships the old gods (old ones who created the world god like...) but they worship a limited amount of them and consider them creator gods but are ignorant of the fact that technology can make you look like a god...

And the Slann Mage-priests... which isnt really a religion... Slann are just really old and some are nearly old enough to remeber the old ones... (2nd generation are currently the oldest alive... 1st generation actually knew the old ones) they dont worship them as such... they venerate them as creators and value there technology which they use... yes they have ritualized them to an extent but lets us not forget that they KNEW the old ones that it might seem odd to say that some of them are snake like some of them are bird like... but that is what they looked like the oldest living Slann are 8,000 years old and the creation of the world was only like 10-12,000 years ago and the world is not a natraul construct as such...

Eusebius World Religions omg... what a mod... why didnt i see it earlier...

Base religion: Animism? Shaminism? etc nothing spirits etc are entirely to powerful live with it...

Divine Appeasement: can appease gods by population sacrifice and having special resources.... temples complexes not really specific temples (current gods, Ulric, Sigmar, Taal etc) could just be a shrine but could range to a large temple for a paticularily favoured god...

Divine Patronage: God(s) worship now standardized under a central governace or sufficently widespread. Religion may crown your leader or may elect or may forge your leader it takes an active role in the goverment and governace. Build depending on faiths in cities a great temple to selected gods.. (theology but ability to select multiple religions? in your mod they tend to represent mulitple religions..)

Prophet-King, Living god, Absolute Monarch: By the grace of god etc... your monarch is the nominal head of state and of the god(s) religion nothing can stand against his divine will... build even larger temples (more happyness etc) but increase corruption a god still has favourites right?

Ordained Social Order, Caste system, religous elite, priestly caste: priests are built much cheaper and will convert people much quick and easier... but temples give limited happyness... elite classes tend to like secrets and not sharing them

Manifest Destiny, divine rule, divine right: God(s) tell you to take over world and bring light to the darkness or darkness to the light etc... warrior tech

Eusebius World Religions for the ideas BOWS BEFORE :king:ly GLORY!!! something like that?

I think WH Religions could somehow go along these lines if Eusebius is developed far enough to 1. run stable 2. not giving any more python exeptions 3. code is fully understood by AI. If these conditions are matched(? sorry my english...) I think we could try to use those mechanics for Warhammer Religions.
Keep on producing Religionfluff here btw I really need this kinda info! Anything you read about Araby, Ind?

yeah... when it comes to me i type :crazyeye: run out of subjects so if anyone wants to outline some... it would be more than happy elaborate...

Dont worry im a native english speaker (well sort of...) and my spelling and punctuation still suck :crazyeye:

yeah... when it comes to me i type :crazyeye: run out of subjects so if anyone wants to outline some... it would be more than happy elaborate...

Dont worry im a native english speaker (well sort of...) and my spelling and punctuation still suck :crazyeye:

Araby and Ind.... hmmm well there is almost nothing on them

Araby: uses elementals... and suffered from a crusade majority of population seems to sit on the coastal plains mountains lead into the really hardcore desert... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Araby_(Warhammer) tell you very little...

My personal thoughts on any map follows as such... cut it off at the dark lands and orgre kindoms... simply speaking there is next to no infomation on Ind, Nippon, or Cathay (which means they are always going to be underdevolped compared to my own beloved empire, or Brittionia etc) i guess though you could deveolp more detail by taking a look at what Arabia was like and extracting some elements you like

I can add some more infomation to that they are pirates all cities do it, they use elementals think dust devils and what not...it was to my knowelgde considered by Khemeri to be barbaric (just axemen and clubmen)... and according to Wikipedia they suffered invasions from Khemeri? but certanily after they devolped into a civilization

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Muktar%27s_Desert_Dogs gives you an idea of what they nomads are like may well be a reflection of Araby? no idea really

Ind (worse infomation that Araby) http://home.swipnet.se/~w-13090/stories/history.html pretty bloody accurate not quite up to date at the moment but oh well... brb if you wanna comment (first time i have used an outside source... normally just use my mind) i do remeber something about were-*blank* its mentioned in the Ogre Kingdoms book somewhere (if someone wants to look it up) silk road runs from Ogre Kindoms to Ind. Hmmm otherwise they are really only in 2 old boxed sets... 1980ties... supposedly (think i can find any hard data :() dont ask me about Cathay or Nippon because that is almost as thin on the ground with regards to data...

Some whispers about a possible release of Ind as an army... which seems to be false

Empire
Vampire Counts
Dark Elves
Tomb Kings
Chaos.

In order of book release... and wtf Chaos again i mean ffs get over it... and tomb kings man they only just had a book made... Empire :D yay but they are getting more mechanical... looks to be more guns and super weapons... :( i like my super weapons but not to the exclusion of all else and empire is getting way to gothic... its just sorta silly now i mean they wernt to dark before sort of the sane bit of the world... now they are sorta stupid... at least to me :( i liked what happened with Imperial guard it was in line with the storyline but this how is this the empire? :( they look evil...

They bought outriders back BRING ON THE GATLING GUNS!!! or are they repeater handguns or pistols?... Empire general? not an elector count?... Kurt Helborg is back :D

Last little post... personally i would recomend if there is a map to go with the mod it not to include anything east of the ogre kingdoms (other civs are more devolped) simply speaking there is nothing on Ind, Cathay, Nippon (2 pages max) and to that matter Tilea, Araby, and Estalia... (5 pages max and some mentions in black libary texts) but sadly alot of the map would just have gaps...

Wow, that was a lot of discussion in the past 24 hours, :goodjob: love it! :D

Education civics:
No Education the default civic, does nothing. no upkeep cost.
Magic Covens:
this could be a neutural civic, (all magic is born from the winds of magic (read the pages on the 8 colleges of magic in the Empire book) so depending on the allegance of the caster it can be good or evil.
this gives a bonus +4 experience to all civs magic units, but all magic units cost +40% more to build. Low Upkeep cost.
Bardic knowledge:
this is an oral tradition, wher the civs knowledge is passed down from generation to generation by word of mouth. This could make religions spread 10% faster (spread of religious stories) +1 extra happyness to cities with trade routes. Low Upkeep cost.
Roaming Tutorage:
This is the education of the civs population but bands of migrating tutors, and teachers who move from city to city spreading thier knowledge. this could give + 30% science to cities with a trade route. Low Upkeep cost.
Military Acadamies:
This is the construction of miltary schools, to educate the people in the ways of military. this could make a +10% production speed, a 10% decrease in tech reasearch costs, and +2 EXP points to all new military units built. High Upkeep cost.
Religious Acadamies:
This is the construction of Religious schools, to educate the people in the ways of the rigions of the world. this could make a +10% spread of religion in the civ, a 10% decrease in tech reasearch costs, and +1 happyness to cities with any religion in them (like free religion) High Upkeep cost.
intuitive Knowledge:
This is the form of knowledge where the populus is born with an inate knowledge. this could give a base +2 science to all cities and a free science specialist in all cities. Medium Upkeep cost
Organised Magic: this is the form of education where magical advancement is encouraged in the civs schools and universities. This could give 10% decline in costs of magic techs in the magic tree, +1 magic commerce in all cities, and makes magic units cheaper by 20%. Very High Upkeep Cost.

Please note, i know the above ideas are very unbalanced, and i know there a probably too many, just throwing ideas around:)

@ Masada: you will see, that if you take a look at the 8 Colleges of magic in the empire rule book, that ALL magic is derived from the winds of chaos. it is purely up to the practicioner's alignment as to whether they are 'good' or 'evil', and you said yourself that there is an indistinct line between good and evil in warhammer.

Also, Quoting from the "Critical Hit" website on the Old Faith:
"The Old Faith:
The oldest religion in the Old World, worshipped by Druids. Its practices revolve around worshipping nature and natural forces.
Neutral
Worship is strongest in the north and west of Old World. Has strong links in rural areas. Many Rangers follow the Old Faith.
Indifferent with the other Old World cults. Has strong relations with Taal, the husband of Rhya.
Summer and winter solstices, spring and autumn equinoxes. Lesser holy days associated with full and new moons."
you will find that the old faith was VERY widely practiced in the Old World prior to Sigmar :)

i also think you may be mistaken as to the fact that the Empire is based on the romans. i think they are, in fact based on the Germanic empire, and Tilia is based on the Roman Empire. (look at the Empires city name, Marienburg? Altdorf? sounds german to me :), now look at tilian city names, Rimas? sounds roman to me;) ) sorry, i had to say that too :)

I love these discussions, keep them coming:)

@ masada and Ploe: take a look at this website, its full of info on Warhammer Religions and a timeline of the entire period. its pretty useful.:)

i like the education civic ideas there great maybe a bit to good in some cases but oh well... science tends to lag a long way back and if you expand even a bit to quick in the start... be prepared for a 100 turn wait till you can scournge up trade :mad: AI does it to.

Magic is i quote INHERANTLY evil it is from Chaos, Chaos is evil incarnate and therefore it is evil. Mages well "good" mages filter and refine it to a controllable mass... it is still evil. You need only look at the warhammer rules concerning magic to understand why... boom no head left. Alignment doesnt really matter a great deal in warhammer... everything is grey look at the new minatures for the empire and you see what they game is like...

Yeah i guess the Old faith is oldest religion... Lizardmen dont really worship as such they venerate and try to fufill there makers wishes...

The old faith is from before the Old ones (not the same thing left the world) before the gates at the north pole opened and chaos flooded into the world

The only real stronghouse left of the old faith is Albion and i believe from my reading it deviates from what was originally worshipped... it is no longer practised exepct for a tiny percentage of the population of the continental old world. They gave way to the new gods, long before Sigmar was born Sigmar i will stress was no considered a god when he was alive it devolped it is a cult limited to the Empire and really on in the West of the Empire... the middle provinces tend to like Taal, the East worship Ulric... of course this is a strict rule there is a great deal of exeptions... worshipping Ulric does not mean you dont also believe in Sigmar (but not as a god maybe? just the founder of the empire) but it may also be that you worship him and Ulric as well as any other god you wish to... the Lady of the Lake is not the only god worshipped in Brettonia (if you will consider it the local cult akin to Sigmar) they still worship the other gods

But i will stress the old gods have no power or influence in the continent or if they do it is minimal. Warhammers gods do take an interest in the world (for them belief is power) that is why Morr cannot stand Vampires and the undead (Btw he is not the god of killing he is the god of the allready dead... he has nothing to do with the act of killing just after that... my favourite god btw).

Sigmar is only a cult of the Empire and the east... he surplanted Ulric as the most widely worshipped god of the Empire at least in the West. http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer/religion/1/ shows a list of the gods... right out of the horses mouth if you will

The empire is based on the holy roman empire.. (the Roman bit was about the misconception that druids were evil and used covens and what not) and the German confederation... the holy roman empire elected an emperor the prostestants had a vote (Ulric stand in) and so did the cathlics (Sigmar stand in) as did the Counts, Kings etc of the german states they were all Elector Kings or Counts etc Marienburn is not part of the Empire (its a stand in for the low countries or so im led to belive) Tilia is not roman as such (it was like that during its history) but its even more fragmentated than the empire is representing Italy for most of its history...

Oh and what website???

The Knights of the Twin-Tailed Orb: The Knights of the Twin-Tailed Orb are followers of Sigmar, named after the two-tailed comet that heralded Sigmar's appearance among mortals. Like other Sigmarite orders they are renowned for their zeal and fervour. In particular, the Knights of the Twin-Tailed Orb are famous for their eagerness to prevent the escape of a single tainted foe, and will relentlessly pursue fleeing enemies even when it would make more tactical sense to regroup.

The Knights of the Blazing Sun: Templars of the war-goddess Myrmidia, the Knights of the Blazing Sun were founded during the Crusades in 1457. In a street battle against the Arabians in Estalia, a group of knights were saved from certain defeat when a freak earth tremor dislodged a huge statue of Myrmidia from a temple roof. It crashed to the ground and landed on the enemy general and his bodyguard, killing them instantly. After the battle, the survivors banded together and founded the Order of the Blazing Sun in Myrmidia's honour.

The Templars of Sigmar: Although a Knightly Order, the mysterious group known simply as the Templars of Sigmar are a world away from the warriors in shining armour of popular image, so much so that they rarely refer to themselves as knights. Instead they battle the foes of Sigmar from the shadows, dealing with subtle and insidious threats such as Chaos cults and reclusive necromancers. In particular they excel at battling users of sorcery, as magic and trickery are tools often used by the servants of darkness. All that most common folk see of the Templars of Sigmar are the elaborate trials and fiery executions used to cleanse the souls of the wicked, and because of this they are most often known simply as Witch Hunters.

The Knights of the White Wolf: As Templars of Ulric, the White Wolves are based in Middenheim, which is the centre of the Ulrican cult. They are known for being the wildest of all the Knightly Orders, charging into battle with no thought for their own safety, and frequently no thought for strategy or tactics either. Their ferocity is unmatched, however, and few enemies can withstand the crushing blows of their cavalry hammers.

The Black Guard of Mórr: Seen less frequently on the open battlefield than knights of many other Orders, the sinister Black Guard are more often encountered travelling alone or in small groups, seeking out corrupt sorcerers who would interfere with the realm of the dead and take resting souls from their place at Mórr's side. In this capacity they frequently work alongside the Witch Hunters of Sigmar, combining arms to deal with an undead threat.'

Thank you Warrhammer.com

The Templars of Sigmar are actually good people in black libary works... dark but fighting the god fight against enemies to evil to compredhend :D and just to show there is solidarity between faiths the Blackguard of Mórr often fight alongside Templars of Sigmar... OH and the Reiksguard are templars of Sigmar as well they see the Emperor as the manifestation of sigmar...

Oh and not all magic is derived from the winds of Magic... Gut magic, Orc magic, Skaven magic, Undead magic... those do not use the winds of magic they use racial abilities... did Nagash use the winds of magic no i dont think he did mass sacrifice if i remeber correctly... oh and the magic that priests use is not from the winds of magic it is from the gods themselves :D however the gods are meant to derive themselves out of chaos or at least the energy released during that... which begs the question were the Old ones... the creators mortal or gods?

:lol: sorry, this website: http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/content/view/85/48/

Ok, Ok :D, so magic inherently evil. (but 'good' mages can "refine it to a controllable mass" and make it slightly less evil :D
But enough of this 'good' and 'evil' nonsense.

about the gods of the old world:
we are only going to have a religion called "human god" for now. i think this is a place holder for until the Eusebius' Religions mod is completed and we can have more religions. until that time im afraid sigmar, ulric and taal and morr will be combined as the Human Gods. however, we may split it up into the separate dieties later on.

No Education (well i would dispute that you dont learn stuff with no formal education...) call it something like Common Knowelgde more PC (politcally correct and closer to the truth) :D

Does nothing.... yeah i guess...

Magical Covens
Magic Covens: Not all magic is from the winds of magic... and really i guess you could be right that before magic was standarized there would have been good and bad mages... however since most nations persacuted mages... there really couldnt be to many as such it would be an early civic... but magic for most of the world wasnt "legal" until the end of the great war against chaos... elves taught men magic as a formal science then (though that might be a bit rich... not sure if the science or at least controlled aspect of it spread from the empire or was allready present in other places...) i dont like it :D scrap it :D (or think of a better idea i dont think it would represent a large enough portion of the population to matter

Bardic Knowlegde... (Oral Tradition would be a better name (more PC) alot of cultures didnt have "bards" as such and quite often priests did that sorta stuff...) i dont know about the idea of 10% extra religion spread... extra happyness from trade routes = :D allow specialist in cities Bard to be utilized would be cool 1 free per city for empires that have Bardic Knowelgde/Oral Tradition give +1 happyness and +2 culture (might be easier to impliment than trade route idea?)

Roaming Tutorage is great... i was talking about nobles tutors who tend not to wander around but either way... great civic :D to much science... could just give a scientist specialist per city and maybe 10% extra science...?

Military Acadamies/Lyceas/Midshipman: cheaper units from inovations :D tech costs i can go for that represents the knowelgde that tends to be created in these places... or at least the potentail for innovations, more exp please :D

Religous Acadmeies: to make the next generation of zealots hell bent on "educating" people in the ways of the true faith... units could get special religous bonuses? zealotism, fanatism etc but i dont think free religion quite works... Religous Academies tend to be centered around 1 god or set of gods... cheaper priests i really wanna see priests of Ursun, Ulric, Taal, Sigmar, Morr, Shaylia, horned rats, old ones, old gods, dwarf gods, elven gods etc all of them have warrior priests :D

Intuitive knowledge... well undead things dont learn and skinks dont really learn alot they are just born with the knowelgde that is needed at the time... sacred spawnings only tend to work when they are needed... no idea how to represent this in game? but a big XP boost and since lizardmen armies havent changed for a long long time.... recently they have a little bit... but not much (the book has just bigger... they havent changed) and undead armies are sorta dead... and dont remeber anything and they really cant change... dead humans are dead humans... skelatons are skelatons XP boost would be allright default tech for Lizardmen, Khermi (Khermi were long dead by the time sigmar came about :D) and Sylvania well who wants to play them while there living?

Organized magic great... could also decrease normal sciene :D since mages tend to look down there noses at engineers...

im just saying that the gods of most of humanity are the same.... Urlic, Morr etc

Sigmar is the diety pecular to the empire
The lady is the diety of only Brettionia
Ursun is the diety of Kislev
Tilea... no idea...
Estalia... no idea...
Cathay and Nippon worship there emperors...
Marienburg worships and i know this is corny... independance and the like freedom...
Morr, taal, Haendryk, Khaine (is an elven god... or else Dark Elves worship a human god... wtf?well Kaela Mensha Khaine... thats from 40k means Khaine of the bloody hands... someone screwed up Khaine is an elven god...), Manann, Morr, Myrmidia, Ranald, Shallya, Sigmar, Patron Deity of the Empire (see), Stromfels, The Shark, Lord of the Raging Sea (who the hell? never heard or read anything about him...), Taal, Ulric, Verena... then what the hell is the Lady? this seems either to be a bit out of date or confused... AH HA this is for Warhammer roleplaying :D that explains it... :lol: that hasnt been updated for a while other than those problems a great site :lol:

Yeah magic is Chaos incarnate it is never good... as such it is always evil but a good mage can refine it so it isnt to chaotic though using it is dangerous...

By all accounts he learned much from his meeting with a group of Elves, said to come from the mythical land of Naggaroth (I believe he had them entombed alive when he learnt all he could from them), and their religion. Using this knowledge he would invent the field of necromancy in order to find the secret of immortality.

Interesting... but you get the picture.. Sigmar wasnt even born at the time of Nagash... oh and thats what turned Khemri into desert :D desolation of Nagash

One way was to place a naked virgin (preferrably female) on a horse and parade them through a graveyard. If the horse decided not to walk over a burial site, this was then believed to be the resting place of a vampire and the body inside was exhumed and subsequently mutilated...

Okay that is just wacked...

In more eastern areas of the Old World, particularly in Ostland, Ostermark and Sylvania, or any rural places, graves are often opened three years after the death of a child, five years after the death of a young person, or seven years after the death of an adult to check for vampirism. Sylvanians even believe that having one foot in the corner of a coffin is evidence in itself of vampirism; after which the body is destroyed in this case, dismembered and then burned as a priest delivers the appropriate religious rites.

You cant blame them after all Vampires are real for them...
Country Vampire
Bretonnia Nosferatu
Estalia Wamphyrio
Tilea Stregoni
Kislev Upr/Upior
Empire/Sylvania Vampire/Vampir/Vampyre
Albion Isles Buhvan-Sith
Cathay Kiang Shi
Nippon Kyuketsuki
Southlands Obayifo/Popobawa
Araby Ekimmu/Algul
Ind Rakshasas/Baital/Penangalen

Ah ha i knew there were Vampires in Ind... but in the ogre kindoms books the things in the night :( sound like warewolves...

Education civics:
Basic Knowledge: the default civic, does nothing. no upkeep cost.
Oral Traditions:
this is an oral tradition, wher the civs knowledge is passed down from generation to generation by word of mouth. +1 extra happyness, +1 Culture to cities with trade routes, and +1 free Bard specialist in all cities. Medium Upkeep cost.
Roaming Tutorage:
This is the education of the civs population but bands of migrating tutors, and teachers who move from city to city spreading thier knowledge. this could give + 20% science to cities with a trade route. Low Upkeep cost.
Military Acadamies:
This is the construction of miltary schools, to educate the people in the ways of military. this could make a +10% unit production speed, a 10% decrease in unit price costs, and +3 EXP points to all new military units built. High Upkeep cost.
Religious Acadamies:
This is the construction of Religious schools, to educate the people in the ways of the rigions of the world. this could make a +10% spread of religion in the civ, a 10% decrease in tech reasearch costs, and a 10% decrease in priest price costs. High Upkeep cost.
intuitive Knowledge:
This is the form of knowledge where the populus is born with an inate knowledge. this could give a base +2 science to all cities and a free science specialist in all cities. Medium Upkeep cost
Organised Magic:
this is the form of education where magical advancement is encouraged in the civs schools and universities. This could give 20% decline in costs of magic techs in the magic tree, but a 10% increase in costs of techs in the tech tree. +1 magic commerce in all cities, and makes magic units cheaper by 20%. Very High Upkeep Cost.


I was thinking about covens some more. because i quite like the idea of covens i would like it in the game somehow. perhaps we could make a new city improvement in the ancient era which can be built after researching one of the first magic techs. this could give all magic units built in the city +2 EXP. just call it "A Coven"

the 'Coven', could act the same as an 'archery range' for archer units (gives +2 EXP to archers), a 'stable' for mounted units (gives +2 EXP to mounted units) a 'training yard' for melle units (gives +2 EXP to melle units) etc etc. what do you think.

Basic Knowledge :D
Oral Traditions: :D its looking good :D
Roaming Tutorage: and maybe exp to military units? just a thought
Military Acadamies: sold on it :D maybe give a soldier specialist? just a thought
Religious Acadamies: YAY :D
intuitive Knowledge: (limited to Lizardmen, Undead, Khermi etc...) just to represent civs that dont learn as such are just born with it..
Organised Magic: (Magical Collegdes?) Yay

Just a thought on these if you recieve training in something it may be to the exlcusion of something else (just a way of justifying this setup :D)

the 'Coven' yeah i guess low lvl mages could be called Hegde wizards, medicine men, herbwoman etc... just to represent a time before magic was legal but it was still practiced :D yeah it could give exp to mage units

Maybe as a way of showing that persucuting magic was bad :D give weaker earlier magic units to the Empire, Tilea, Estalia etc places that frowned on magic but give them better priests :D

would it be possible to make something along the lines of 2nd tier upgrades for units? archery range (no idea...), stables (lyceam, which are cavalry schools for cavarly officers +4 exp? more expensive tied into Military Tradition limit 3?), training yard (could be a military academy or a officer school? +4 exp for melee tied into military tradition limit 3?) navy could have (Midshipmans quarters +4 exp for navy vessels tied into military tradition limit 3 and dry docks +2 exp for navy vessels) etc etc and maybe model some special team building on them?

Limit 3 should apply to all of them... so for instance you could have LyceamX2 and officers schoolX1 (not officers schoolX2?) just to allow players to specialize how they play.... brettonia using *shudder* infantry instead of Knights....

Okay, in terms of Gods - the 40K eldar worship the same gods as the HE, DE and WE. Gotta run to dinner but there's more on the way.

BTW - there should be a theocracy option. Will think about that

Right. As I was saying, I think there needs to be 2 more civics:

A government Theocracy which would decrease war weariness, and maybe make religious buildings generate more happiness and gold maybe.

A religious 'Organised Religion', although that might have to be renamed. What I liked about that one in the core Civ 4 game is that it halted the spread of other religions and aided the spread of yours - and allowed the building of missionaries, all of which I think would really tie in well with the warhammer world - especially the halting of other religions. Chaos cults invariably exist, yes - but they're generally stamped down on hard wherever possible.

HE rulers - while I agree in principle that it's more important to sort out the rest of the game before adding more (if any) leaders, I think it's very important for the Everqueen to be represented somewhere. She is, after all, half of the ruling power of Ulthuan. I'd be going for either Astarielle, the Everqueen at the time of the Chaos Incursion, or more likely Alarielle, who would be arcane, hidden and creative/philosophical - not too sure right now. Alarielle is the current Everqueen, and appeared in 5th Ed HE book along with the official maiden guard (a national unit planned for hopefully?).

I don't know if it's possible to tie in a UU to the leaders, but that could make for an interesting choice - Maiden Guard with the Everqueen or the White Lions with the Phoenix King.

Will do more thinking, but that's all I have for now.

organized religion could be good, but i think we have enough for the moment.

I agree on Alarielle.

I'm gonna go to gamesworshop sometime today to play a game with someone (yes, I have started playing again. The rules have changed, its now th 7th Edition). I'll ask one of the guys there what they think are the most important ~8 religions.

ah, thats a good idea. i should have done that.
i havent played a decent game of WH tabletop in a loooong time. you make me jealous olleus:( good luck though, bring back the spoils of war!

In reply to Arathlan comments on the eldar gods... they have the same name but they are not the same. Khaine is only called Kaela Mensha Khaine it means Khaine of the bloody handed (or some such derivitive) they are not the same... they are both the lord of murder but Khaine is the elven god of murder and differes hugely from the Eldar god of murder. Khaine earned the epitet Kaela Mensha because he killed the Eldar champion of Vaal, Khaine in Warhammer does not have that epilet. In 40k he allowed Slannesh (spelling) to eat all the Eldar gods excluding the laughing god who was to fast... he did this to test his strength and guess what he lost and was split into a thousand pieces. Chaos in warhammer was not created by latent phycic (spelling) energy... it was caused when the gates at the poles exploded and released chaos. They are not linked and Games workshop has said that for a long time... they did have a common link early in the days of Warhammer and 40k... but they have distanced to a large extent the product range.

Lord Olleus sadly that will yield a limited range of gods... because and i will say this Warhammer has never written more than about 4 pages on Araby, Ind, Cathy, Nippon, Estalia, Tilea, the Southlands, the Amazons etc... they have only ever released a single army book for Ogres as well... it means some products are extremly well devolped and some have none. Brittonia has changed to such an extent between army books its mind boggling and so has Khemri. I wouldnt be surpised to find out that they would struggle to name 6 religions... its happened to me before in a Gamesworkshop store.. when i started asking questions about the background and they couldnt answer.. (even though it was in the background of the time)

Religions as follows...
Sigmar (more of a localised cult in the Empire)
The Lady (more of a localised cult in Brittonia)
Old world gods (morr, taal, Haendryk etc)
Ursun (more of a localised cult in Kislev)
Ulric, (is worshipped in strength in the east of the empire... not sure if he would count as a religion of his own..? but im leaning towards yes the cult of Sigmar and Ulric have fought openly during there lifespans..)
Taal (is in much the same boat as Ulric he has a strong worship in the middle of the empire (the empire is covered in forests more forest than grassland... and he is the god of the forests... go figure who the foresters and whatnot worship)
Old gods (Gog and Magog etc... Albion only small cults in the old world)
Old ones (the creators of the Warhammer world (it is a created world not a natrual world), Not really a religion the Slann (1st generation meet them) know they are coming back they know they were super advanced and they dont as such worship them as gods more as creators
Elven gods, difficult to really put as a single thing.. High Elves, Dark Elves and Wood elves sorta get different ideas... about them...
Orion and (whats her name)... (are really worshipped only by wood elves, dont even know that the other elves know they exist...?)
Phoniex King (is a god or at least considered as one... this im not sure about)
Emperor Woship, (Cathay and Nippon both worship there emperor as a god... but im lead to belive they worship him as part of a pantheon...)
Chaos, well im not sure but Kurgans, Dolgans etc cover a huge area and im lead to belive must have a massive population to attack Kislev and the Empire in strength and win...
Chaos cults, are cults they are secretive and very very hard to stamp out... the amount of chaos worshippers that came out of the ground (spits) during the storm of chaos was huge... they formed there own armies this is a little problem... they are stamped out but i dont think they should be a religion on there own right :D

Organised Religion doesnt really fit... the empire is a sigmarite nation... but it does not persacute other faiths other than Chaos... (and lets face it who doesnt? because it isnt a nice religion? its stated aims are to take over the world and kill all unbelievers and then their gods will creat their version of paradise... not a pleasant thing im sure.... Blood, Plauge, Rampant Change, and Hedonism? sound inviting? cause it wouldnt be.) The empire allows the worship of all Old world gods (see above) as well as Ulric and Taal which have a substantial following...? sound like it persacute other faiths? (Sigmar united the empire he did not unite Brittionia or Kislev so thats why they dont worship him)

Guiles Le Bretton united Brittionia under the guiding hand of the lady and that is why Brittionia worships the lady

Kislev worships Ursun because Ursun is their god a representation of their nation and its hardships and difficulties but also the nations good parts...

Think of its as Saint worshipping a saint tends to be only worshipped in a single area... (well at least local Saints) Joan of Arc is a French saint she hold little power in Germany or England. Likewise Saint George and Thomas Bekett (spelling....) are English saints etc for other nations...

Theocracy are their any in Warhammer? not that i can think of

Okay... I'm not entirely certain about the Eldar/Elven God split, but frankly - that's irrelevent to the discussion, so I'll say no more - I haven't really kept up with the 40K developments.

The Elven Gods are in the same boat - or Pantheon rather.

Asuryan ("Emperor of the Heavens", Keeper of Balance, Creator of the Elves - Children of Asur. Wears a mask.)
Isha (Nature mother, "Goddess of Earth, Plants and Forests")
Khaine (War/Murder)
Kurnous (Hunter and Husband of Isha) And YES he is mentioned in the 5th ED HE book - primary God of Ellyrion
Vaul (Smith, crippled and blind and chained to his anvil after challenging Khaine).
Lileath - (Goddess of Magic - most notable for supporting Teclis through the 'sacred' moon staff of Lileath)
Hoeth - not sure how he's differing to Lileath, But the entry for Belannaer in 5th Ed mentions he has a Shrine inside the white tower.
I may be missing a few, but that's what comes off the top of my head and the 5th ED HE book. I'll have to track down my 4th ED one to see if it has any additional fluff.

The Phonix King is the Chosen of Asuryan, And the Everqueen Chosen of Isha - at least of the High Elves. Neither are worshipped as Gode per se.

Orion and Ariel are the Chosen of Kurnous and Isha respectively (Apparently Isha got greedy :p ) and rule the Wood Elves. They are effectively Demigods, retreating to the Oak of Ages (I think) each winter and reawakening each spring.

The Dark Elves worship Khaine. There's probably some Slaaneshi worshippers in there, but they probably don't want Chaos thundering south into Naggaroth, thus the watchtowers etc. I don't have any of the Dark Elf material, so there's not much insight I can give in there.

Isha, Asuryan and Khaine have shrines in Ulthuan - major ones. The everqueen has a right of passage at Gaen Vale, the Phoenix King at the Shrine of Asuryan, and both High Elves and Dark Elves lay claim to the Shrine of Khaine in the north of Ulthuan.

In terms of religions - I have to ask if they're going to be split into their respective dieties or not - because if they ARE then I'll agree 'organised religion' doesn't really fit. If they AREN'T, then I think they still do.

Elves don't worship dwarven gods, or human gods, or orcish gods and vice versa - that's the sort of thing I'd want to represent - but in game terms, I think it's important that there is some religious civic that hastens the spread of a state religion and allows the removal of non-state religions (assuming there's not going to be a relgion for each sect). I can't really see Humans getting all warm and fuzzy over the Horned Rat should Skaven finally make it in.

Granted I haven't kept up with the Undead - but I'd say the Tomb Kings come pretty close to a Theocracy. If you boil it right down, Ulthuan IS a theocracy, led by people 'chosen' by the Gods - while I believe the Everqueen's Throne is also hereditary, the Phoenix King is not. He is chosen democratically, but then Asuryan must accept him - Malekith being the only one to fail so far. Athel Loren goes one step futher and is led by Demigods - physical representations OF Gods. And on the basis that Slann are priests of the Old ones and dictate Lizardmen society, then their civilisation too is a Theocracy - probably the truest one in Warhammer.

Brettonia is a feudal kingdom, The Empire is an Empire I guess - It is rather messy with all those Elector Counts. Orcs and Chaos are Despots, as I suppose are the Dark Elves. Skaven are probably a republic of sorts, what with their council of the Thirteen, and Vampire Counts... well, that depends on the vampire I suppose, but probably a Despot when you come right down to it. Not too sure about Dwarfs (if Warhammer still uses that as the plural), they do have their own set of Gods though.

No clue about Amazons or Norse - or even Chaos Dwarfs for that matter. I only glanced briefly at that book. They seemed closest to Chaotic technocrats to be honest. And Nippon and Cathay are completely alien to me.

On a totally different note, is there any chance of getting a decent sailing vessel earlier in the game. It's a long trek from Galleys to Caravels, which makes Archipelago games very dull.

I will probably make sails available more early but can't promise for the next release. The techtree will be revamped probably after the next release that means.
Whatever thx for all the info on religions here I find that most useful. The mod probably won't mirror WH exactly but we're trying to get close. If anyone can get some religionfluff about the civs not supported by GW that'll be highly appreciated. If there's nothing available I'd also like made up fluff for them if the ideas are good.

Heh - that's all good. I'm just throwing stuff out there before I forget it.

More HE notes in terms of leaders

Aenarion shouldn't have seafaring. The High Elves didn't rise to sea dominance until after his time. He was a warrior, so he really ought to have defensive, given that he spent most of his life trying to drive Chaos from Ulthuan.

I'm also guessing that for game balance purposes the Ancient Elves are not going to get their dragonriders :p

Btw Religions will be represented by pantheons(at least at first). Civspecific Gods will be represented by unique units and buildings if they have the refering pantheon as statereligion.

Heres an interesting fact the reason the dark elves were created... was because a fair amount of them worshipped Slaanesh not all of them. But even now the cult of Slaanesh is very strong it competes with the cult of Khaine openly and they fight alot. The watchtowers exist because simply speaking the Dolgans, Kurgans etc dont care if you are a chaos worshipper... you are not one of them. No brotherhood in chaos really....

To organized religion: well just wrack up the values for religions to spread to other civs... and the "cults" if you will while important i think Ploeperpengel solution is great saves it getting really messy.


In the words of Wikipedia

For believers in a religion whose institutions have been more or less equated with the state's institutions in a theocracy, a theocracy is a form of government in which the divine power (in monotheisms the one God) governs an earthly human state, either in person (e.g. as incarnation in a human) or, more often, via its religious institutional representative(s) (e.g. church, temple, mosque), either replacing or dominating the organs of civil government as clerical or spiritual representative(s) of god(s). [1]

Theocracys...
Using this explanation is it possible to say that it is a theocracy but only in loose terms. Divine power in this case a directly elected servant of a god, (real divine power) governs a nation because he is the representitive of the god in question. Name a religion in the real world that puts it followers through a flame that burns them to death if they are impure or lets them pass through if they are? Additionaly they do not govern through a church as such... or even a religious edifice (one could say that they are part of a entrenched religous buerocracy) but if one applies the logic that you used [B]Theocracys...
Ulthuan is not really a theocracy they are the elect of the gods... complex to say but this but the gods do not influence the way it is run (a code of conduct inside the high elves does this) anyone can be a Phoniex king it is an elected title (as i think you said) they are all European monarchs were part of a theocracy (generalisation i know) but they were all crowned by members of various churches... Religion plays an important part in high elven life but i dont think the gods directly put a hand into it (apart from selecting a monarch all they really do is ratify the choice) high elves are regulated by a code of conduct inside their society. Its more of a Absolute monarchy with a divine mandate than a theocracy.

Tomb Kings well they are similar to the high elves... but let me say this their has never been a single ruler of Khemri (to my knowelgde) the gods do *elect* them the moment they deal with the former monarch etc... Nagash made them as they are he created the Tomb kings...

Nothing else really fits into a theocracy apart from Nippon and Cathay (think China and Japan for an idea of what they are like just add X10 to the power of the emperors :D)

theres some very nice stuff there guys:thumbsup: thanks for the info:)

Ploe, if i may give a little insight into the religion debate at the moment;):

so far we have come up with these major religions with sub divisions of cults. the cultw will most likely be represented by unique temples, buildings and units that can only be gained after a certain tech is researched, after the necessary religion is adopted. for example, if the Chaos Dwarves found the 'Chaos Cults' religion (below) they are able to build only chaos undivide units and buildings. but then they have access to 4 new technologies, namely The Blood God(khorne), The Lord of Pleasure (slaanesh), Lord of Plague (nurgle) and the Lord of Change(tzeentch). if the Chos dwarves then research "The Blood God" tech, they have access to temples, altars and pillars relevent to Khorne. these buildings subsequently would enable units like Bloodletter deamons and Hell Hounds to be built.

Here are the religions and their cults, and also the Civs which could be relevant to them:


Old Faiths- so this covers:
-Most of the Old World (the Old Faith)
-High Elves (Asuryanism)
-Dark Elves (Cult of Khaine)
-Wood Elves (Followers of Isha)
-Dwarves (Dwarven Pantheon: Morngrim/ Grungni/ Rukh)
-Lizardmen (The Old Ones)
-Amazons (Animism)
-Arabya (Ormazd (AKA) Al-Alnon)
-Khemri (Ormazd Pantheon excluding ormzad and with the Asp Goddess as the ruler)
-Lhamia (Ormazd Pantheon excluding ormzad and with the Asp Goddess as the ruler)

Young Gods - and this covers:
-Bretonnia ( Lady of the lake)
-Empire (Sigmar/ Ulric/ Morr/ Rhia/ Manann/ Verena)
-Estalia (Haendryk/ Manann/ Myrmidia)
-Tilea (Luccan and Luccina / Haendryk/ Myrmidia)
-Kislev (Ulric)
-Norse (Odin/ Thore etc)

Dark Children - and this one covers
-Tombkings (Cult of Nagash)
-Lhamia (Cult of Nagash)
-Sylvanians (Cult of Nagash)
-Skaven(The Horned Rat)
-Dark Elves (Cult of Khaine)
-The Empire (Necromantic cults, Clut of Khaine etc)
-Chaos Dwarfs (some corruption of the Dwarven Gods?)

Chaos Cults -and this one covers
-Chaos (Nurgle/Tzeentch/Khorne/Slaanesh/ Chaos Undivided)
-Beastmen (Nurgle/Tzeentch/Khorne/Slaanesh/ Chaos Undivided)
-Chaos Dwarfs (Chaos Undivided)
-Skaven (The Horned Rat)
-Darkelves (Slaanesh)
-Ind (cant remember the name of the god)
-Norse (Chaos Undivided)
-The Empire ((cults such as: )The Purple Hand/ The Red Crown/ The Crimson Sickle/ The Jade Sceptre/ The Black Monks)

Gods of Law - and this one covers
-Cathay (Cult of Celestial Dragon)
-Nippon (Jintoism)
-Arabya (Ormazd (AKA) Al-Alnon)
-Empire (Sigmar)
-Dwarfs (Sigmar-du^m)
-High Elves (Asuryanism)

Barbaric Gods
-Orcs (Gork and Mork)
-Gobbos (Gork and Mork)
-Hobgoblin Hegemony (???)
-Ogre Lords (The Great Maw)


any more ideas for this would be greatly apreciated.:)

PS i hope i got that right ploe :p

YAY that would be great :D

I thought Ind worshipped a pantheon of gods...? had no idea it was chaotic Ind, Cathay and Nippon suffered invasions during the great war against Chaos... it was called somewhere the land of a thousand gods...

Amazons and Animism... i do know they use the old ones tech and i do know the Lizardmen and Amazons have a live and let be policy... but maybe thats just me?

Dwarfs (Sigmar-du^m) WHOAH since when? i never knew that

The Empire ((cults such as: )The Purple Hand/ The Red Crown/ The Crimson Sickle/ The Jade Sceptre/ The Black Monks) lol i wouldnt bother with this lot... after all their are chaos cults wherever humans are and elves etc im just wondering if its worth it? and the empire has a cult of Khaine? same boat really (and i swear to god that Khaine is only an elven god... wierdest crossover ever if he is worshipped by men and elves...)

Hobgoblin hegomony? Gork and Mork? maybe they worship their great Khans? (your choice nothing in my memory about who they worship)

Sylvanians and Lhamia (Cult of Nagash) umm not to my knowelgde yes they used his texts but worshipping him? to my knowelgde the vampire counts worshipped nothing execpt themselves... Veneration of Nagash or Pogrency of Nagash might be better

Skaven are a result of chaos? but is the horned rat a chaos god?

Last little quibble.... over the young gods... Estalia might like Haendryk Manann and Myrmidia but they still worship morr and taal etc... same could be said of all the human nations in the old world. Even Kislev worships in a secondary role the gods of the old world as well as Ursun and house spirits...

Thats my gripe and quibbling over for that

theres some very nice stuff there guys:thumbsup: thanks for the info:)

Ploe, if i may give a little insight into the religion debate at the moment;):

so far we have come up with these major religions with sub divisions of cults. the cultw will most likely be represented by unique temples, buildings and units that can only be gained after a certain tech is researched, after the necessary religion is adopted. for example, if the Chaos Dwarves found the 'Chaos Cults' religion (below) they are able to build only chaos undivide units and buildings. but then they have access to 4 new technologies, namely The Blood God(khorne), The Lord of Pleasure (slaanesh), Lord of Plague (nurgle) and the Lord of Change(tzeentch). if the Chos dwarves then research "The Blood God" tech, they have access to temples, altars and pillars relevent to Khorne. these buildings subsequently would enable units like Bloodletter deamons and Hell Hounds to be built.

Here are the religions and their cults, and also the Civs which could be relevant to them:


Old Faiths- so this covers:
-Most of the Old World (the Old Faith)
-High Elves (Asuryanism)
-Dark Elves (Cult of Khaine)
-Wood Elves (Followers of Isha)
-Dwarves (Dwarven Pantheon: Morngrim/ Grungni/ Rukh)
-Lizardmen (The Old Ones)
-Amazons (Animism)
-Arabya (Ormazd (AKA) Al-Alnon)
-Khemri (Ormazd Pantheon excluding ormzad and with the Asp Goddess as the ruler)
-Lhamia (Ormazd Pantheon excluding ormzad and with the Asp Goddess as the ruler)

Young Gods - and this covers:
-Bretonnia ( Lady of the lake)
-Empire (Sigmar/ Ulric/ Morr/ Rhia/ Manann/ Verena)
-Estalia (Haendryk/ Manann/ Myrmidia)
-Tilea (Luccan and Luccina / Haendryk/ Myrmidia)
-Kislev (Ulric)
-Norse (Odin/ Thore etc)

Dark Children - and this one covers
-Tombkings (Cult of Nagash)
-Lhamia (Cult of Nagash)
-Sylvanians (Cult of Nagash)
-Skaven(The Horned Rat)
-Dark Elves (Cult of Khaine)
-The Empire (Necromantic cults, Clut of Khaine etc)
-Chaos Dwarfs (some corruption of the Dwarven Gods?)

Chaos Cults -and this one covers
-Chaos (Nurgle/Tzeentch/Khorne/Slaanesh/ Chaos Undivided)
-Beastmen (Nurgle/Tzeentch/Khorne/Slaanesh/ Chaos Undivided)
-Chaos Dwarfs (Chaos Undivided)
-Skaven (The Horned Rat)
-Darkelves (Slaanesh)
-Ind (cant remember the name of the god)
-Norse (Chaos Undivided)
-The Empire ((cults such as: )The Purple Hand/ The Red Crown/ The Crimson Sickle/ The Jade Sceptre/ The Black Monks)

Gods of Law - and this one covers
-Cathay (Cult of Celestial Dragon)
-Nippon (Jintoism)
-Arabya (Ormazd (AKA) Al-Alnon)
-Empire (Sigmar)
-Dwarfs (Sigmar-du^m)
-High Elves (Asuryanism)

Barbaric Gods
-Orcs (Gork and Mork)
-Gobbos (Gork and Mork)
-Hobgoblin Hegemony (???)
-Ogre Lords (The Great Maw)


any more ideas for this would be greatly apreciated.:)

PS i hope i got that right ploe :p

Well if it weren't for those many doubles and some errors I'd like that list. If we're going to use it and the idea with the religiontechs isn't yet fully decided since that idea is really vague yet. Anyway I think it's ok to discuss this openly. WH-Religion is so complex we can use any help we can get to get some order into it:p

Much of the fluff is derived from backgroundmaterial for WFRP that was rejected by GW and therefore not published officially. Here's a link:
http://www.warhammer.net/archives/browse.php?id=8

But Sigmar indeed sounds strange for Dwarves.

About the Dwarves and Sigmar-du^m: go here:
http://www.warhammer.net/archives/view.php?id=214

And yes, The Skaven god The horned Rat is a Chaos god. if you read the Skaven rule book you will see:)

Where would you propose the Indic Pantheon go? possible under the Young gods?

here is an altered list of the above religions:

Old Faiths- so this covers:
-Most of the Old World (the Old Faith)
-High Elves (Asuryanism)
-Dark Elves (Cult of Khaine)
-Wood Elves (Followers of Isha)
-Dwarves (Dwarven Pantheon: Morngrim/ Grungni/ Rukh)
-Lizardmen (The Old Ones)
-Amazons (The Old Ones / Animism)
-Arabya (Ormazd (AKA) Al-Alnon)
-Khemri (Ormazd Pantheon excluding ormzad and with the Asp Goddess as the ruler)
-Lhamia (Ormazd Pantheon excluding ormzad and with the Asp Goddess as the ruler)

Young Gods - and this covers:
-Bretonnia ( Lady of the lake)
-Empire (Sigmar/ Ulric/ Morr/ Rhia/ Manann/ Verena etc and other human gods)
-Estalia (Haendryk/ Manann/ Myrmidia etc etc and other human gods)
-Tilea (Luccan and Luccina / Haendryk/ Myrmidia etc etc and other human gods)
-Kislev (Ulric, Ursun, and some other human gods)
-Norse (Odin/ Thore etc)

Dark Children - and this one covers
-Tombkings (Cult of Nagash (Veneration of Nagash? Pogrency of Nagash?) )
-Lhamia (Cult of Nagash (Veneration of Nagash? Pogrency of Nagash?))
-Sylvanians (Cult of Nagash (Veneration of Nagash? Pogrency of Nagash?))
-Skaven(The Horned Rat)
-Chaos Dwarfs (some corruption of the Dwarven Gods?)

Chaos Cults -and this one covers
-Chaos (Nurgle/Tzeentch/Khorne/Slaanesh/ Chaos Undivided)
-Beastmen (Nurgle/Tzeentch/Khorne/Slaanesh/ Chaos Undivided)
-Chaos Dwarfs (Chaos Undivided)
-Skaven (The Horned Rat)
-Darkelves (Slaanesh)
-Ind (cant remember the name of the god)
-Norse (Chaos Undivided)

Gods of Law - and this one covers
-Cathay (Cult of Celestial Dragon)
-Nippon (Jintoism)
-Arabya (Ormazd (AKA) Al-Alnon)
-Empire (Sigmar)
-Dwarfs (Sigmar-du^m (its only a minor thing, go here: http://www.warhammer.net/archives/view.php?id=214)
-High Elves (Asuryanism)

Barbaric Gods
-Orcs (Gork and Mork)
-Gobbos (Gork and Mork)
-Hobgoblin Hegemony (Worship of the Great Khans?)
-Ogre Lords (The Great Maw)
-Skaven (The Horned Rat)


PS, im aware of the many cross overs, im just posting the many possibilities. we just need to disguss it and decide what to keep, what to change and what to scrap:)

Ploeperpengel is right WFRP is way out of date and is no longer canon... (atm anyway) but i dont see anyway to get around using it. It covers alot of stuff that is needed Nippon, Cathay etc that would be impossible to cover without it. I dont mind using it EXCEPT when goes against current canon.

Rule of WFRP use

1.It must not go against current canon
e.g Khaine as the lord of murder for elves not humans as well....

Faiths:

Old Faiths:
-Most of old World (the old faith) to my knowelge it was only worshipped in what
is now Brittonia, Albion and the Empire. Esatlia, Tilea, Brittonia, Araby and parts of Khemri were ruled from Tilea (roman empire of warhammer) they persecuted the old faith, and it died out everywhere except Albion (where it is stilled worshipped). I would love to see it included but is it really important?

Asuryanism: (for PC reasons it should be changed to Cult of Asuryan, cant discreminate between "evil" and "good" elves. ALL ELVES ARE EVIL!! :lol: )
-yeah i guess it represents the High elven view of their gods

Cult of Khaine:
-represents the Dark elves and their really warped version of faith, they forsook all the other elven gods because they believed they were betrayed by them.

Followers of Isha:
-represents the wood evlen view of the way the world works

Dwarven Pantheon:
-go figure its right :D but... when did the Chaos dwarves spring into being?

The Old Ones:
-to my knowelgde it isnt really a relgion the slann are really really old and they know that the old ones are going to be coming back, its just a matter of time really... Slann are the caretakers of the world that the Old ones created specially for this role
-Amazons well im not a 100% sure but i think they do venerate the old ones maybe as gods? not all powerful creator beings that are mortal.
-Note: the Elves know that the old ones created the world, although they were not old enough or advanced enough to understand why?

Ormazd:
-that is from WFRP i gather. It gets my green light to be used for lack of other infomation.

Ind Pantheon: (Should be put here)
-Note Ind is the oldest human Civ and their gods are hinted to be memories of the old ones (cant say that emphatically)
-They have been worshipping the same gods for a long long time... they have a tiered system of gods though. The original gods of thier pantheon which are strikingly similar to the old ones.
-They also have a 2nd tier of gods that have devolped over time (based on heros etc)
-They are now up to thier 3rd tier of gods which have devolped over time yet again (based on legends)
-These new and newer gods are children or have an affinity with the previous line...
-They still worship the oldest gods but they are not as popular as the current gods (for more infomation look at the tiers in the gods in real world India)
-Infomation drawn from WFRP, Warhammer and some of my own conclusions based on the limited infomation.

Cult of Celestial Dragon:
-Cathay im led to believe is also damm old nearly as old as Ind, but its a choice really it could fit into Young, Old, or God of Order

Jintoism
-Same with Nippon just use it a balancing factor to have an even spread of religions popping :D

Animism:
-would add this for the very early old world (just make it default for civs without a religion, Paganism is so baised and unfair)

Young Gods:
Old World Pantheon: Morr, Ulric, Rhia, Manann, Verena, Haendryk, Myrmidia, Luccan, Luccina
Norse Pantheon: Thor, Odin etc
Kislev: House Spirits
Chaos: they are young gods or at least some of them :P
Drop the rest of them down to a new Civic Patron Gods or into Gods of Law

Dark Children
Hieratic Order
-been reading up about Tombkings they are not Nagash supporters... but im not sure if they still worship their old gods (im lead to believe they are a bit jaded in that respect) but they are still devoted to tradition.

Aristocracy of the Night, Chosen, Blood Kiss? leaning towards Chosen or Blood Kissed/Kiss
-Lhamians sorta just stole what Nagash knew... they dont really worship him, and they sorta buggered up his incarnation anyway and improved on it. But they did worship themselves.
-Sylvanians though they are sorta 4000 years distant but oh well....

The Horned Rat
-Skaven (why not put them into Chaos? or throw Beastmen in here as well they are both Dark Children products of Warpstone and Chaos...)

Chaos Dwarves (throw em in Chaos for simplicity)... No idea what they hell....

Chaos Cults

Tribes of Chaos
-represents the tribes of men that follow Chaos, Dolgans, Kurgans, Wu etc... most of them never worship the main Chaos gods they worship a minor servant or aspect of the god... throw the norse in here as well (i think the different gods special stuff could be a bit later somewhere or just represented with buildings etc)

Children of the Dark gods
-Beastmen are chaos incarnate they are the product of Chaos... maybe put em into Dark Children?

Fallen Brethren
-Chaos Dwarves their wills be a word that the dwarves use to describe them and it wont be pleasant :D

The Horned Rat
-throw them into children maybe...

Cult of Pleasure (im not sure about if this is needed...)
-Darkelves are evil and sadistic and hedonistic at the same time this lot are just worse...

Ind
-Chaos? they got invaded during the great war against chaos...

Gods of Law

Cult of Celestial Dragon (covered allready)

Jintoism (covered allready)

Ormazd (AKA) Al-Alnon
they do change how their pantheon is made up so yeah :lol:

Sigmar-du^m
-i vote we obliterate this farce... :P someone must be sitting in GW and regretting this ever making it into the light :P

Asuryanism- let it be and just keep it in Old Faiths

Patron Gods (they are not old gods, and they are later than the new gods...)

Sigmar
-not really a god but treated as one more of a patron saint that anything, more powerful than that though

The Lady
-patron saint but more powerful than that though

Ursin
-same thing as above...


Barbaric Gods:

-Orcs (Gork and Mork)
-Gobbos (Gork and Mork)
-Hobgoblin Hegemony (Worship of the Great Khans?)
-Ogre Lords (The Great Maw)

Yeah to all scrap horned rat from this...

Below ive redone the list again, and added a new category called 'Mortal Gods?' or something along those lines to represent all the mortalys who achieve godly power / reputaion (sigmar). any better?

Old Faiths- so this covers:
-The Old Faith --- The Empire, Bretonnia, Tilia, Estalia, Kislev, Norsca, Albion, Araby.
-Asuryanism / Cult of Asuryanism --- High Elves (as well as the other elves)
-Cult of Khaine --- Dark elves (as well as the other elves)
-Followers of Isha --- Wood Elves (as well as the other elves)
-Dwarven Pantheon (Morngrim/ Grungni/ Rukh)--- Dwarves
-The Old Ones --- Lizardmen, Amazonians
-Ormzad / Al-Alnon --- Araby, Khemri(probably Khemries religion before they died), Lhamia (lhamia is a break away civ from Khemri and therefore used to have the same religion as them)


Young Gods - and this covers:
-Old World Pantheon (Morr, Ulric, Rhia, Manann, Verena, Haendryk, Myrmidia, Luccan, Luccina etc) --- The Empire, Bretonnia, Tilia, Estalia, Kislev, Norsca
-Norse Pantheon (Thor, Odin etc)--- Norsca, possibly kislev?
-Children of Chaos (the offspring of the elder chaos gods?) ---Chaos, beastmen, Chaos Dwarves, Ind, Skaven
-Lady of the Lake --- Bretonnia
-Sigmar --- The Empire


Dark Children - and this one covers
-Cult of Nagash /Veneration of Nagash / Pogrency of Nagash? --- Khemri, Lhamia, Sylvania
-The Horned Rat --- Skaven
-Gods of the Dark Forge? (better name?) --- Chaos Dwarves
-Mark of Blood? Blood Cult? The Bloodless? --- Lhamia, Sylvania.

Chaos Cults -and this one covers
-Nurgle --- Chaos, Beastmen
-Tzeentch ---Chaos, Beastmen
-Khorne---Chaos, Beastmen
-Slaanesh---Chaos, Beastmen, Dark Elves
-Chaos Undivided---Chaos, Beastmen, Chaos Dwarves
-Children of Chaos---Chaos, Beastmen, Hung, Kurgan, Norsca, Ind.


Gods of Law - and this one covers
-Cult of Celestial Dragon --- Cathay (Possibly nippon as well?)
-Jintoism --- Nippon (Possibly Cathay as well?)
-Ormazd / Al-Alnon --- Araby, Khemri
-Sigmar --- Empire


Saintly Worship? Followers of the Saints? Living Gods? Mortal Gods?
-Lady of the Lake --- Bretonnia
-Sigmar --- The Empire
-Ursin --- Kislev
-Cult of Celestial Dragon --- Cathay (they worship their emperors as gods)


Barbaric Gods
-Orcs (Gork and Mork)
-Gobbos (Gork and Mork)
-Hobgoblin Hegemony (Worship of the Great Khans?)
-Ogre Lords (The Great Maw)




just one thing: in Civ i think the term 'religion' is an umbrella term for ways of life, beliefs and value. it does not necessarily mean that it has to have a god or two for it to be a religion (look at buddhism).
also, i think the Old Ones is the worship of gods, as the slann follow thier teachongs to the spot (besides, none of the living slann have ever seen the old ones)

Old Faiths:

-The Old Faith: The Empire, Bretonnia, Tilea (had its own Pantheon, basis of curent young gods in the old wordl or so im lead to believe), Estalia (fell under Tilea's dominance), Kislev (had its own household spirit thing going, still does), Norsca (completly the same as Kislev they are the same peoples during the early time periods), Albion (still worship this), Araby (had its own Pantheon, and was only tribes... till after Nagash did his handiwork)

(i dislike this faith... would love to cut it, but Albion still holds to it all i can say to this is convert to Sigmar...) apart from my personal dislike i dont see the value of it... just assume it is the base religion (paganism whatever...) it doesnt matter.

-Cult of Asuryanism: High elves only
(elven gods are giving me kittens...) i agree with their being different gods for all the elven factions it makes sense... but i dont like it :lol:

Cult of Khaine: Dark Elves only (not for Wood elves...and high elves well no, Slannesh yes :P but this no)

-Followers of Isha: Wood elves only
This is a wood elf cult other elves worship Isha... but not to the degree that Wood elves do

-Dwarven Pantheon (Morngrim/ Grungni/ Rukh) Dwarves only

-The Old Ones --- Lizardmen, Amazonians Only (everyone is to ignorant to belive in them...)
-Ormzad Pantheon Araby, Khemri (Was Khemri's religion before they died... Lhamia (is not a breakaway civ Khemri is the biggest city state in that area it is only a city state... there are many many others these are just the most notable city states... Lhamia wasnt even that powerful pre vampires. It did worship the same gods)

Indic Pantheon (must go here):
It is the oldest human civ it has a 1000 gods... and i swear it does not worship chaos

(continued tommorow)

@ masada: please explain why you dont like the Old faiths.
old world human religions dont come under this heading, this is ment for religions that were founded before the human tribes became 'civilised' meaning only elven, dwarven and lizardmen and ancient human civs come under this heading but the Old Faith is the only Ancient Human religion, so its logical to have it here.

also, no religion should be for one civ only. all elves believe in isha, khaine and Asuryan, but they tend to worship one over the other (highelves believe in khaine but they dont dare speak of him, but what would happen if they became corrupted by the temptations he offers??? would there be two races of Dark elf????) this is a game of possibilities, so restricting religions to one civ is silly in my oppinion, we should at least limit it to groups of civs (eg the elven religions are avaliable to all even civs and human civs (there are several cults of khaine in the empire and Bretonia, also Khemri had some influence for mkhain before. Isha and Kurnous are very real to the Brettonians, so they stilltend to believe in them.) like i said, there are many possibilies that can happen.

What do you mean by House spirits for Kislev? do you mean like House elves from Harry potter or ghosts haunting the place or what??

i agree with the Indic Pantheon. But im definate that there are parts of ind which worship some of the lesser Chaos gods but they dont know it. there was a Chaos prophet i think who went and took the Chaos religion into ind, claiming that the chaos gods were the 'good' guys, and that Ind was worshiping 'false gods' of corse this caused a massive civcil war. i will try find the link that i read that from.


Old Faiths-The Old Faith --- The Empire, Bretonnia, Tilia, Estalia, Kislev, Norsca, Albion, Araby.
-Asuryanism / Cult of Asuryanism --- High Elves (as well as the other elves)
-Cult of Khaine --- Dark elves (as well as the other elves)
-Followers of Isha --- Wood Elves (as well as the other elves)
-Dwarven Pantheon (Morngrim/ Grungni/ Rukh)--- Dwarves
-The Old Ones --- Lizardmen, Amazonians
-Ormzad / Al-Alnon --- Araby, Khemri(probably Khemries religion before they died), Lhamia (lhamia is a break away civ from Khemri and therefore used to have the same religion as them)
-The Indic Pantheon --- Ind


Young Gods
-Old World Pantheon (Morr, Ulric, Rhia, Manann, Verena, Haendryk, Myrmidia, Luccan, Luccina etc) --- The Empire, Bretonnia, Tilia, Estalia, Kislev, Norsca
-Norse Pantheon (Thor, Odin etc)--- Norsca, possibly kislev?
-Children of Chaos (the offspring of the elder chaos gods?) ---Chaos, beastmen, Chaos Dwarves, Ind, Skaven
-Lady of the Lake --- Bretonnia
-Sigmar --- The Empire


Dark Children [/B
-Cult of Nagash /Veneration of Nagash / Pogrency of Nagash? --- Khemri, Lhamia, Sylvania
-The Horned Rat --- Skaven
-Gods of the Dark Forge? (better name?) --- Chaos Dwarves
-Mark of Blood? Blood Cult? The Bloodless? --- Lhamia, Sylvania.
[B]
Chaos Cults
-Nurgle --- Chaos, Beastmen
-Tzeentch ---Chaos, Beastmen
-Khorne---Chaos, Beastmen
-Slaanesh---Chaos, Beastmen, Dark Elves
-Chaos Undivided---Chaos, Beastmen, Chaos Dwarves
-Children of Chaos---Chaos, Beastmen, Hung, Kurgan, Norsca, Ind.


Gods of Law
-Cult of Celestial Dragon --- Cathay (Possibly nippon as well?)
-Jintoism --- Nippon (Possibly Cathay as well?)
-Ormazd / Al-Alnon --- Araby, Khemri
-Sigmar --- Empire


Mortal Gods.
-Lady of the Lake --- Bretonnia
-Sigmar --- The Empire
-Ursin --- Kislev
-Cult of Celestial Dragon --- Cathay (they worship their emperors as gods)


Barbaric Gods
-Orcs (Gork and Mork)
-Gobbos (Gork and Mork)
-Hobgoblin Hegemony (Worship of the Great Khans?)
-Ogre Lords (The Great Maw)

You have a problem with Elves unfortunately

High Elves - worship primarily Asuryan and Isha.
There are others, but these are the primary two

Dark Elves - worship Khaine and Slaanesh (Cult of pleasure, infighting or no)

Wood Elves - worship Kurnous and Isha jointly.

Damn Elves! :D

Of course there should probably be a 'cult' for Hoeth/Lileath which would allow for things like swordmasters...

P.s.

I do agree with the 'possibilities' thing. There is no reason why in Civ 4, High elves can't worship chaos, say. My main concern is that

1) Religions didn't spread very fast
2) These gods probably aren't the sharing type.

Which is why I wanted organised religion and the ability to remove nonstate religions via a unit or something. This would work BEST if the current overarching system of racial gods was used.

Hmm... speaking of - in terms of tech tree, is it possible to move Elven Gods away from the Old one Gods? Currently the first person to old ones is probably going to be able to found Elven immediately after too...

Oh, one more error I picked up.

Anlec is NOT a High Elf city. It is a dark elf Citadel. Yes it is in Nagarythe (the shadowlands), but it is NOT High Elven. It was created by the dark elves by beaching two black arks. Then razed by the high elves, rebuilt, razed, etc. etc.

It should be a dark elf city, not a high elf city.

hey you're right, Anlec isnt highelf. thanks for that.

Well, your main concerns are very good concerns, and i share them. i think once we have the religions decided for good, were going to need to design them all, making each do something unique and different, but being balanced. then we can move on to the sub religions, diversifying them and blancing them. in those stages, we will need to decide the spreading rate of each religion, for instance, Chaos should be quite a fast spreading religion, whereas Old Faiths should be slower. to over come the slowness, we would just add cheaper priests, and for the fast ones, make the priests more expensive, or later.

I personally thinnk that we definately need inquisitor units like in FFH. We could give the Empire special Witch hunter units as a unique inquisitor. not to sure what he should do as of yet though, so well see.

Also, could you explain what you mean by this:
"Which is why I wanted organised religion and the ability to remove nonstate religions via a unit or something. This would work BEST if the current overarching system of racial gods was used."
i got a little lost here :)

At all, thanks for all the great feed back and ideas by the way.:D


EDIT: updated Post 3 with current religion ideas.

Erm, not to crash your party, but when Games Workshop busts down your doors and demands you take this off-line, wouldn't all of your hard work be kind of wasted...?

Erm, you do realize that were not breaching anything as were not selling this. its a hobby of mine, and im guessing its a hobby of the rest of the WH team, of most other people modding these days in fact. i dont see anyone getting money for thier mods, unless youre not telling me something. so why would it be a problem if we want to adapt a tabletop board game to Civ??? i dont see Tolkien's family busting down doors and demands the Lord of the rings mods be taken off-line. and i dont see any of the Star wars producers busting down doors and demands the Star Wars mods be taken off-line.

And for your information, our work will not be wasted, as i can assure you that i will continue modding this on my own if i must, but i have a feeling that ploe will hold the team together even if we were forced to go off line. it would only be your loss, not having access to it.

PS: did you even look at the Legal Disclaimer?


This Mod is completely unofficial and in no way endorsed by Games Workshop Limited.

Chaos, the Chaos device, the Chaos logo, Citadel, Citadel Device, Darkblade, the Double-Headed/Imperial Eagle device,'Eavy Metal, Forge World, Games Workshop, Games Workshop logo, Golden Demon, Great Unclean One, GW, the Hammer of Sigmar logo, Horned Rat logo, Keeper of Secrets, Khemri, Khorne, the Khorne logo, Lord of Change, Mark of Chaos, Nurgle, the Nurgle logo, Skaven, the Skaven symbol devices, Slaanesh, the Slaanesh logo, Tomb Kings, Twin Tailed Comet Logo, Tzeentch, the Tzeentch logo, Warhammer, Warhammer Online, Warhammer World logo, White Dwarf, the White Dwarf logo, and all associated marks, names, races, race insignia, characters, vehicles, locations, units, illustrations and images from the Warhammer world are either ®, ™ and/or © Copyright Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2006, variably registered in the UK and other countries around the world. Used without permission. No challenge to their status intended. All Rights Reserved to their respective owners.


PPS, was there any point to that post other than to hear me rant again?

PPPS sorry, i had to say that :p

Sorry about my absence… (Finally figured out to use word to type these messages :D) was unable to log on due to technical issues.

@ Psychic Llamas my apologies I thought you were discussing the Old Faith as in the Old Faith that the truthsayers from Albion worship but that is dead amongst all the rest of humanity.

@ Psychic Llamas to my knowledge humans do not worship elven gods that is some of the silliness they introduced in WFRP it was never canon. Khaine is an elven god only in WFRP was he ever considered to be otherwise, that has been retracted with Khaine being listed as an elven god.

Fundamentally I agree it should be possible to have 2 dark elven civilizations. Now in scenario terms would there ever have been dark elves if they hadn’t lost? I agree that certain groupings of civilizations should have access to religions.

Also the timeline of warhammer fantasy would need a staggered timeline of civilization starts. High elves, Lizardmen etc first then other nation following a time line as they spawn…. (think Rhyes of Civilization…)

@ Psychic Llamas house spirits mean exactly that, they are minor gods of the hearth, house, wine and ancestor spirits… would also be a fair assumption to say that they east of the empire at least held similar beliefs pre old human gods

This all goes to my next idea would it possible to make 2 old religions? Just to make it not one huge block of old world religious love... east vs west :D just run House Spirits and Nature gods? (whatever they you want to call them)

@ Psychic Llamas well does it matter about Ind worshipping for a bit Chaos? Never been a mention of Chaos gods in Ind at least in the recent literature. In reality does normal Civilization show what a split in a faith does? Just ignore that hiccup, and the many other religious hiccups of Warhammer.

@ Arathlan the spread of religions isn’t right some spread fast others haven’t… Ursun the bear god of Kislev re spread his faith amongst Kislev in a couple of years.

Sigmar took only a 100 years after his death to be worshipped in half the Empire and semi worshipped in the other half. 100 years might seem a long time but the cult of Sigmar really sprang into action with the 1st Theogonist. It changed from hero worship to god worship in only a couple of years.

The Lady of Brettionia spread in a couple of years of Guiles Le Breton taking power.

It does spread fast, but a lot of faiths spread slowly as well… and to an Elf or a Dwarf a short time is a long time (different concept of time…)

@ Arathlan saying they don’t share isn’t quite right, all the old gods’ cults tend to get along without to much blood. Better than the real world in that respect religious violence is quite low, excepting chaos but they are evil… it don’t think that is quite right but then again it is… in part…. Complex…

@ kazapp there is so much unofficial stuff for Games workshop projects it would make your head spin. Have a quick look around, a lot of sites on the net copy directly from GW magazines and don’t even acknowledge their source… and I don’t see GW breaking down there doors. This project is using original content derived from a 3rd party program that is non profit.

And the disclaimer :D its quite well written

Welcome back Masada :)

The Old faith (as in the Albion religion) is a confusing topic. i agree with you that it is now 'dead' throuout most of the Old World, and that it is only truly 'alive' in Albion and remote covens in the empire. however, before Sigmar, or Ursun, or the Lady, or any of the other 'younger' human gods, the Old faith was THE faith in the Old World. so if we look at WH history from a different perspective, if The Old Faith happend to prosper, and the people of the empire saw Sigmar as a fraud and didnt worship him, would the Old Faith still be 'alive' in the Old World? i think any religon, whether dead or alive now, as long as it once existed, is good to put in game as long as it serves a purpose. But i do see what you were saying :)

WFRP has confused me :( i dont know what to believe any more. i mean, i see what you mean by minor details like Ind worshipping Chaos being a silly excuse for fluff, but i didnt know what else to believe. however, that said, there is a lot that WFRP has to offer. think of all those races that have only 1 page of legitimate fluff from GW, Amazonians, Hobgobla-khan, Cathay, Nippon, Ind, Araby, Albion. there realy is alot of stuff we need to improvise on, so i think we could still use WFRP as a last resort if needs be. :)

I honestly have never even heard of these hous spirits. could you provide a link, or some more fluff on them?

Ill change the Minor Chaos Gods sub religion to be able to be worshipped by all races. Chaos seems like a VERY versatile force, getting into every nook and cranny. imagine High Elves following Khorne, or Araby following Nurgle, or the Empire following Tzeenthch. they are all possible.

I agree with you for the Religion Spread.

Thanks for the feedback again :D

Gods of Kislev from WD286 (it wasnt easy to find believe me...)

Ursun:

Description: Is the father of bears, can appear in the shape of a Bear or a bearded man

Symbol: Bear paw, worshippers often have one made of gold on there necks, bearskin cloaks, bear skull over there helmet in the north of Kislev or over there shields

Temples: Ursun has no temples, carins and standing stones, a cave of a great bear, offerings of fish and berries, in cities areas are allowed to grow wild for temples

Friends and Enemies: Friction between Ulric and Ursun pride issues pretty much the same, Taal because i quote "they share a common border at Tabecland" (LOL) they consider Taal worshippers a bit daft for worshipping all animals equally since bears are better... (LOL), they see the southern gods as a bit soft and unworthy...

Holy Days: Only 2 real holy days, the spring equinox where they rouse Ursun and the Autumn equinox where they offer food from the first havest to Ursun

Strictures: Never kill a bear in his sleep, Bears must be killed by hand or arrow no dogs or traps, only wear the skin, claw, skull of a bear you kill yourself, eat fish once per week, and never eat meat and fish on the same day, never pray indoors...

Dazn

Description: God of fire and the sun, handsome youth with long hair and wreathed in fire, he is accompanied by warrior consorts called Avari

Symbol: The sun or the flame made of gold which is the cults sacred metal

Temples: Large open arenas with lots of fire and an image of there god in gold

Freidns and enemies: they get along with everyone sometimes a bit peeved at Ulric (god of winter... and all)

Holy Days: every day is holy, Summer solstice when the god walks amongst his worshippers the most, in the north they burn people for him and in the south horses and oxen

Strictures: Must offer hospitality, never let a fire go out during the night, never set a fire on a dirty hearth, offer prayers to Dazn on the first morning of snows (most of the time it snows in Kislev 9 months :eek: )

Tor: God of thunder and lighting, comes as a warrior god, most active of Kislevite gods

Symbol: Thunderbolt, axe, silver

Temples: atop hills, worlds edge mountains near peak pass and high pass, large stone blocks with heavy roofs of wooden logs for temples

Freinds and Enemies: indifferent to other gods, get along with Ulric

Holy Days: No formal days, during a good storm they go and gather and pray together, warriors pray to Tor before and after battle

Stricures: never stand under a tree in a thunderstorm :lol:

Other gods...

Taal (talabec is his sacred rive and Kislev borders it), Ulric, even more than any other old worlders the Kislevites pay tribute to all manner of nature and household spirits who help them in their daily lives, or set them tests to prove themselves. Little offering and rituals are followed in a near unthinking fasion to appease the various needs of these sometimes mischievous but usually benevolent creatures. (as i said earlier split the Old gods into 2 parts North and South say?)

History of Kislev

Years (Gospodarin Calendar)
c-1600: Lands north of the Urskoy are peopled by Posmenn and Ungols. Peace exists between Teutogens who border territory except for borders raids and what nots..

-1524: Empire is founded by Sigmar. He scatters the Norsii people from sea of claws and they northwards. The Ungols drive them further north in what is now Norsca. Sigmar helps Ungols fighting Orcs in Worlds Edge Mountians. Peace exsists together after they both fight at the Battle of Blackfire pass.

-45:Over several years the tribes of the chaos wastes drive Gospodar tribes to move west

-30: Khan Queen Miska leads the Gospodar leads them over High pass and drives the Ungols back

-27 Praag is overun by Gospodar and Ungols are forced south

-25 Amry of Ungol Warlord Hethis Chaq defeats a Ropsmenn host led by King Weiran on the cliffs overlooking the sea of claws. The Ropsmenn are scattered and the Ungols take their lands

1: Under the rule of Khan-queen Shoika, work begins on the building of the capital Kislev. Takes the title Tzarina to show she rules north of Urskoy

3: Norvard last great Ungol stronghold is taken by Gospodars and renamed Erengrad. Completes the conquest of Urskoy (note: Ungols continue to exist as a seperate people, subserviant is not the right word...)

788: Great war against Chaos. Praag is besieged and destroyed and destroyed again after Kislev retakes and burns it to the ground to destroy taint of Chaos (the last sentance is an addition, info from another WD) Kislev besieged and saved by, Dwarfs (who help defend the city and make the breakout), Men (the empire led by Magnus the Pious soon to be the 1st real Emperor for a thousand years), Elves (3... Techlis and 2 others teach men to work magic and found schools in Altdorf)

968: Tzar Vladamire Bokha dies fighting goblins east of Kislev (city?) (Wolf rider goblins to if i remeber...?) Boris his son inherits a ruin of a nation that hasnt recovered from the Great War against Chaos

969: Tzar Boris Bokha defeats Beastmen army outside Praag, earning the name Radii Bokha (Bokha the Red), he spends the treasury (pisses of old guard Boyars) and rebuilds the country

973: radii Bokha returns from wild with the war bear Urskin, and becomes the first High Priest of Ursun in 400 years (no idea why?...) taking the title Boris Ursus

993: Tzar Boris dies in Troll Country (evil nasty place...) Tzarina Katarin is crowned

997:Time known as "spring driving" (nice name). Hordes of Archaon rampage south crossing the Lynsk. Armies of the Tzarina and the Empire are defeated....

Cities:Only 3 in Kislev...

Kislev: Been sieged many times but never defeated or captured :D. High seat of the Tzarina, Tzar contains the Bokha palace the original was wrecked in the Great war against Chaos in 778 (IC2302 normal warhammer calendar)

Erengrad: Main port and trading city, everyone trades here even Norsca (errant brothers or so the Kislevites think of them...)

Praag: "The cursed city" been overun a couple of times. During the great war against chaos the walls and building became infused with chaos and sprouted tentacles and eyes etc... Horse tribes come to rally here during the times and war and boasts the a large Ungol population. Three times it has attempted to cede from the Tzars power... twice it was starved in submission, the third time it was taken by force ruled by a Gospodar governor who answers only to the Tzarina.

Kislev has 2 major populations Gospodars (in the south) winged lancers and Griffon legion, Kossars are a mix of Ungors and Gospodars and all the Horse archers are Ungors... Ungors are from the north and are primarily nomadic

Thank you WD for my RI... but oh well.... that was way longer than I wanted it to be…

@ Psychic_Llamas

The Old Faith: you are making an assumption that all the old gods were the same... i believe that it is not likely that they were so i propose make it into 2 sets of faiths North and South whatever...

North: is for the Empire, Kislev, Norsca

South is for Brettionia, Estalia, Tilea (that is a hard choice they created the precursers to the young gods, morr etc..), Albion

They can lead to different faiths...

North: Ursun, Sigmar, Norse Pantheon, Young gods

South: The Lady, Young gods, the old gods, Tilean Pantheon, Precurser gods... etc

Just to show there would have been differences in these pre young god faiths... the empire, kislev and norsca would have had a different spin on their nature gods based on the difficult enviroments they lived in.... compared to the south where life is a bit easier no large large forests no chaos knocking at your door etc...

@ Psychic_Llamas concerning Sigmar as a fraud he never said he was a god the worship devolped and people belived he was a god simple they made him into one. He was in life a very gifted warrior king with a hint of the divine :D/

(BTW i love tha religon mod it is pure gold :D hoping it can be implimented but even so if it isnt i think that splitting it into 2 faiths would make it easier assuming we can get more than 8 :lol: in which case it is moot anyway)

@ Psychic_Llamas concerning WFRP. It isnt canon as such but your right it should be stressed that it does have infomation that we do not have access to any other way :D

I think the rules should be:

1. Canon supersedes any other infomation
2. In the event of no conflict with the 1st rule it should be taken on
3. Except if it conflicts with a logical progression of canon

I want to use it would be useful and great to flesh out the underdevolped races. If you use WFRP or anything before the Ogre Kindoms army book for Ogres it cannot be considered canon if it conflicts with what the book lays down. If it does not conflict with rule 1 it should be taken under consideration. Then it must be as logical progression of Canon e.g Ogres can fly... then why the hell do they walk in the board game and in the black libary works and in the army book?? so that would not be a logical progression of Canon. But for Ind saying that Chaos has an influence in its culture would be acceptable provided it did not conflict with the fact that Ind is not reconizably Chaos. I could stomach that it may have a strong chaos or that some of there gods are chaos gods.. but not that the nation is completely chaotic for instance it conflicts with all the infomation which mentions nothing about this. Strong Chaos cult yes, chaos gods yes, all chaos no.

@ Psychic_Llamas house spirits are hopefully covered... but it does raise a point... it says the most observant of the nations of the old world? do others do it as well just not as much. I believe my talk about North, South relations effectively scraps the need for this.


@ Psychic_Llamas Chaos is very adaptive and very versatile its cults are not blatant they indoctranate members slowly into the cult. A low level member might only attend a Tzentian cult and learn nothing but a simple ritual. As they progress they will get more and more drawn into the cult and learn more... suffice to say Witch hunters dont care what level you are they will burn you all at the stake...

I dont see it as likely that Chaos will take over a whole country, subvert allready existing practices yes, but not blatantly converting a nation

@ Psychic_Llamas Religous values for some relgions should be turned way up to convert to it... Lizardmen converting to Chaos i mean wtf that would be comic in the extreme... but also some values should be turned down Sigmar in Kislev why not he is a warrior god and they are a warrior people? etc

@Arathlan Oh and lets not forget that High Elves were utterly sickened by the cult of Slaanesh and would never have turned to worshipping chaos they have trouble doing it.... old ones either created them like that or it was allready in built along with there Xenophobia, girlishness, dislike of black powder because its noisy? and all that jazz :P they just sorta crack me up

@Arathlan Wood elves are regarded by the rest of the elves as savages not even elves. Simply speaking they consider them barbarian elves at best and at worst not even elves on a par with men

High elves are not good in a LOTR sense they are fickle, capricous and self serving (same with the Eldar but thats a different matter) they taught men (the empire) how to use magic properly so they could act as a speed bump to Chaos... not because they love them. I dont even think that they think they can win against Chaos or hold out forever they are dying out very quickly... Dark Elves likewise are the weakest they have ever been they are forced to raid for slaves in Tilea the weakest of all the old world nations, the lizardmen cities because they are on the brink of tettering as well, the Southland and Araby about the most backward bits of the world.... sad to say.... they have had to curtail raids to the stronger bits of the world because they cannot afford to do it properly... what i dont understand is why the hell anyone figures its cheaper to work your slaves to death i mean its a how many thousand km journey to get new ones? (warhammer world is earth sized) why not feed em and that way they would last alot longer... elves also suck at economics and at the slave trade... to stupid and superior to be Machavellian (who is alive in Tilea at least the Warhammer version of him) :lol:

Yeah getting tired and suffering from RI from all the typing suffice to say that should cover it for a bit

well, i think i would agree with you on having the north and south human gods, but we would need to think of a good name for them. (thanks for all that info on Kislev. REALLY usefull.:D)

I also agree to your method for WFRP. sounds good. but just keep in mind that not everything in the canon WH history will be suitable to be converted into civ. so suitability is a higher priority IMO.

Ok, i understand the House Spirita now. (i think they need a better name though:p)

Im not sure if altering the conversion probability for races is possible. will have to wait for Ploe or Olleus to say something about that.(it is a good idea though :))

I think you have misrepresented the Woodelves there. (i play as Woodelves, theyre my favourite :D) Woodelves are not shunned by the highelves, its the other way around, WE shun HE because they abandoned them during those early wars, to be killed and have thier homes destroyed. the Woodelves were forced to migrate into the forest, convince it they were not going to harm it, befrendthe forst spirits etc etc. Also, the woodelves are a neutural race. they see 'good' as those who defent Athel Loren, and 'evil' as those who fight Athel Loren. because of this, WE have befrended the Bretonnians in a fragile way, with a silent truce between the 2 races. this is also why Ariel is on a constant war with Cyanathir (i think that was his name, big evil Beastman who never dies) she will never cease to hent him until Athel Loren is safe, so they see the Beastmen as evil. WE are no more barbaric than the highelves. they are equally as cultured, and traditional, but they have developed s diversity in thier culture to link close to thier homes. just because they like living in nature, not in massive stone towers does not make them barbaric :p. (sorry, i had to say that ;) )

@Psychic_Llamas concerning religions hopefully in the scenario it will break up the big pool of love that would devolp in the old world... all one faith +8 modifiers=death to war.... still no idea what to call them but oh well that can be left to better minds than mine

@Psychic_Llamas concerning canon i get what you are saying suitability to civ is a good addition but i agree with you it will be impossible to capture the whole dynamic of Warhammer but its all ready turning out to be a bloody good attempt :lol:

@Psychic_Llamas concerning House Spirits originally i was just illastrating a point that not all of the old world worshipped a single faith pre young gods... however this split ideas renders the point moot it is really being encoperated to the north vs south idea

@Psychic_Llamas concerning religion base conversion im pretty sure it is... a number of religous mods do something along those lines but i guess until someone says yes or no its an idea

@Psychic_Llamas, the idea of barbarians is relative to the light cast on it... what consitutes a barbarian and what doesnt is relative (which alot of people in the real world need to remeber) what seems alien to one culture may be normal and vice versa.

Woodelves are shunned by the High Elves simply they are to different and to fey to be considered normal... Woodelves do shun other races but that doesnt mean other races dont shun them.

Also while the perspective is relative they are considered by the other elves to be barbarians (wether they are or not...)

The truce with Brettonia is more of a live and let be policy Brettonians dont screw with them... and woodelves dont screw with Brettiona because its against there character...

Oh and i consider all elves to be evil :lol: i suffer from a touch of Xenophobia in that respect... to many boltthrower related misshaps killing stuff they are not meant to... crew of a hellblaster, wizard, engineer etc...

@Psychic Llamas "DA RULZ!!! (Orcish for The Rules)

1. Warhammer Canon supersedes any other infomation
including but not limited to: Black Libary Works, WFRP etc

2. In the event of no conflict with the 1st rule the infomation should be taken onto consideration

3. In the event that it does not conflict with the 1st and 2nd rule it may be excepted if it does not follow the logical progression of canon

4. However suitibilitity to the Warhammer Fanstasy Battles mod may supersede Canon if it does not conflict to heavily to the accepted given of the game as a whole

Is that a better version? it allows for some canon to be reversed to give greater depth to the mod but not if it affects the game as a whole.

5. All must bow before Masada and seek divine guidance :lol:

:lol: ok, thet rule is good. except number 5, it really should be "All must bow before Psychic Llamas and seek divine guidance from the great Llama in the sky :D jk

can you grab the list of religions in the 3rd or 4th post and edit the north and south human religions in? that way i can see EXACTLY what you are thinking.

Hey, just because elves are better than orcs dosnt mean they are evil :D jk

(OMG, i just realiazed my typing in my last post was shocking! im surprised you were able to understand it :crazyeye: )

Old Faiths:

Northen Gods (gods of winter etc)

The Empire, Kislev, Norsca

Southern Gods (gods of plenty etc)

Bretonnia, Estalia, Albion

Elves leave as is...
-Asuryanism / Cult of Asuryanism --- High Elves (as well as the other elves)
-Cult of Khaine --- Dark elves (as well as the other elves)
-Followers of Isha --- Wood Elves (as well as the other elves)

Dwarves leave as is
-Dwarven Pantheon (Morngrim/ Grungni/ Rukh)--- Dwarves

Old ones leave as is
-The Old Ones --- Lizardmen, Amazonians

Rename (Ormzad Pantheon)
Araby, Khemri, Lhamia

Leave as is
-The Indic Pantheon --- Ind

Maybe include Cathay and Nippon religions and split it into 2 religous techs maybe? i dont know cant have to many religions on one tech?

Young Gods

Leave as is...
Old World Pantheon
The Empire, Bretonnia, Tilia, Estalia, Kislev, Norsca (shouldnt be in here move into Norse Pantheon?

Norse Pantheon
Norsca, Kislev and maybe the Empire for diversity as well as other..?

Cut it maybe? from here?
Children of Chaos Chaos, beastmen, Chaos Dwarves, Ind, Skaven

Cut it from here
Lady of the Lake --- Bretonnia

Cut it from here
Sigmar --- The Empire


[b]Dark Children [/B
Cult of Nagash /Veneration of Nagash / Pogrency of Nagash?
Khemri, Lhamia, Sylvania

The Horned Rat
Skaven

Cut it and just put in Chaos undivided...?
Gods of the Dark Forge
Chaos Dwarves

No idea about this cant really decide....
Chaos
-Nurgle --- Chaos, Beastmen
-Tzeentch ---Chaos, Beastmen
-Khorne---Chaos, Beastmen
-Slaanesh---Chaos, Beastmen, Dark Elves
-Chaos Undivided---Chaos, Beastmen, Chaos Dwarves
-Children of Chaos---Chaos, Beastmen, Hung, Kurgan, Norsca, Ind.

Past this point it all gets messy.... i cant really decide...

Gods of Law
-Cult of Celestial Dragon --- Cathay (Possibly nippon as well?)
-Jintoism --- Nippon (Possibly Cathay as well?)
-Ormazd / Al-Alnon --- Araby, Khemri
-Sigmar --- Empire

Mortal Gods.
-Lady of the Lake --- Bretonnia
-Sigmar --- The Empire
-Ursin --- Kislev
-Cult of Celestial Dragon --- Cathay (they worship their emperors as gods)

Barbaric Gods
-Orcs (Gork and Mork)
-Gobbos (Gork and Mork)
-Hobgoblin Hegemony (Worship of the Great Khans?)
-Ogre Lords (The Great Maw)

Oh, Ok. i see now, thanks :)

Is there any point to having the young gods if your going to move them all to the old gods?? (this is a rhetorical question btw :p ) im going to move the northern gods and southern gods to young gods ok. (as i said before, Old gods is primarily for religions berfore the rise of man, with only the Old Faith to represent old worlder humans here.)

Ok, ill Rename Ormzad Pantheon

you're right, ill cut Children of chaos from young gods.

Ill keep Gods of the dark forge in Dark Children i think.

yep, ill just put Sigmar and the Lady in Mortal gods, not in young gods.



Old Faiths
-The Old Faith --- The Empire, Bretonnia, Tilia, Estalia, Kislev, Norsca, Albion, Araby.
-Asuryanism / Cult of Asuryanism --- High Elves (as well as the other elves)
-Cult of Khaine --- Dark elves (as well as the other elves)
-Followers of Isha --- Wood Elves (as well as the other elves)
-Dwarven Pantheon (Morngrim/ Grungni/ Rukh)--- Dwarves
-The Old Ones --- Lizardmen, Amazonians
-Ormzad Pantheon --- Araby, Khemri(probably Khemries religion before they died), Lhamia (lhamia is a break away civ from Khemri and therefore used to have the same religion as them)
-The Indic Pantheon --- Ind


Young Gods
-Northen Gods (gods of winter etc)---The Empire, Kislev, Norsca, Albion
-Southern Gods (gods of plenty etc)---Bretonnia, Estalia, Tilia, Albion
-Old World Pantheon (Morr, Ulric, Rhia, Manann, Verena, Haendryk, Myrmidia, Luccan, Luccina etc) --- The Empire, Bretonnia, Tilia, Estalia, Kislev
-Norse Pantheon (Thor, Odin etc)--- Norsca, kislev, Empire for diversity?

Dark Children
-Cult of Nagash /Veneration of Nagash / Pogrency of Nagash? --- Khemri, Lhamia, Sylvania
-The Horned Rat --- Skaven
-Gods of the Dark Forge? (better name?) --- Chaos Dwarves
-Mark of Blood? Blood Cult? The Bloodless? --- Lhamia, Sylvania.

Chaos Cults
-Nurgle --- Chaos, Beastmen
-Tzeentch ---Chaos, Beastmen
-Khorne---Chaos, Beastmen
-Slaanesh---Chaos, Beastmen, Dark Elves
-Chaos Undivided---Chaos, Beastmen, Chaos Dwarves
-Children of Chaos---Chaos, Beastmen, Hung, Kurgan, Norsca, Ind.


Gods of Law
-Cult of Celestial Dragon --- Cathay (Possibly nippon as well?)
-Jintoism --- Nippon (Possibly Cathay as well?)
-Ormazd Pantheon --- Araby, Khemri
-Sigmar --- Empire


Mortal Gods.
-Lady of the Lake --- Bretonnia
-Sigmar --- The Empire
-Ursin --- Kislev
-Cult of Celestial Dragon --- Cathay (they worship their emperors as gods)


Barbaric Gods
-Orcs (Gork and Mork)
-Gobbos (Gork and Mork)
-Hobgoblin Hegemony (Worship of the Great Khans?)
-Ogre Lords (The Great Maw)



Any better?

getting there... its looking much better not much else that i can add apart from moving old world pantheon to Mortal gods maybe? but im a bit tired and i cant really think of much else to add/tweak going to have to see what the bosses think :lol:

bout time we asked for there feedback :eek: :p

Sorry to bust your 2 people convo, but shouldn't we agree exactly what religions will do, how they will be founded and how important they are before deciding which ones are in the game. Because, to be honest, the names of the religions is far less important than the effect of religion.

yes, but before we can do that, we need to see what possible religions there are. (besides, i think were done here now, so we can start thinking about what they all DO now :) )

Ok, so starting with the "Old Faiths" Religion:
In General: I propose that this has a slow spread rate, with cheaper priests than other religions.
Its temples and Shrines should be more expensive, but will have stronger effects than the other religions.
Sub Religions:
-The Old Faith
Can only build Temples. each shrine makes magic casters slightly cheaper, and allows priests to start with one free spell.
---Buildings:
Altar= none
Temple= Coven
Cathederal= none
Monument= ???
-Asuryanism
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Flame
Temple= Temple of Asuryan
Cathederal= Hall of the Phoenix
Monument= The Shrine of Asuryan
-Cult of Khaine
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= The Blood Altar
Temple= Temple of Khaine
Cathederal= Hall of Murder
Monument= The Shrine of Khaine
-Followers of Isha
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= Sacred Tree
Temple= Isha's Grove
Cathederal= Oaken Hall
Monument= The Tears of Isha
-Dwarven Pantheon
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= ???
Temple= Temple of the Dwarf Gods
Cathederal= Hall of the Elders
Monument= ???
-The Old Ones
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= Sacrificial Altar
Temple= Temple of the old Ones
Cathederal= Pyramid Temple
Monument= The Marks of the Old Ones
-Ormzad Pantheon
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= ???
Temple= ???
Cathederal= ???
Monument= ???
-The Indic Pantheon
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= ???
Temple= ???
Cathederal= ???
Monument= ???

(this is just one way we could do it)

@Lord Olleus ouch that comment hurt... and wasnt justified i dont know but were the pretty lists we made just for show? was discussing the nature of the religions show? im sure you could have deined to tell us if things were possible e.g a limit on the number of religions? etc

Im wondering if the time im pouring into this is worth it if thats the response. I have been deliberating on the matter since that post was posted... and i still havent come to answer if someone wants to assist me in my descion then please do

@Psychic_Llamas a quick list...

The Old Faith/s
Temple should be subbed for Altar fits with the informal nature of the worship, should still be a coven/standing stones/obelisk/ whatever but thats my 2 bob. I agree with the buffs. Monument Calender of the Sun/Moon/whatever might fit with the theme?

Asuryanism
No idea what the buff should be... Asuryanism has links to war go that way or at least martial pride etc

Cult of Khaine
Should make troops better warrior religion to the core well at least it encourages murder which goes hand in hand with war...


Followers of Isha
Ban forest chops (wood elves are green to the core...)/increase food of forests (they live of the damm things and in large part there religion reflected and created that)/better forest related combat (are there better and more annoying forest fighters in the game)?

Dwarven Pantheon
defence (dwarves are defensive by nature.. and there religion tells them to be)/no retreat (because Dwarves are stubborn and there faith reinforces that). Monument book of Gruges (its the pinnacle of the Dwarven faith, maintaining it...), Altar (that thing they carry into battle... memory blank...) or Oath Stone

The Old Ones
this will be hard one to come up with... but it should be science and mages?

Ormzad Pantheon
cheaper mages/cheaper elementals?
Altar: Oasis (i think those have meaning?)
Temple: Complex of the Ormzad?
Catherdral: Center of the Ormzad?
Monument: Gods Home/Inhabbitance of the Ormzad? (there gods are linked to places... i think)

Indic Pantheon
cheaper soldiers? cheaper priests?
Altar Roadside waystation?
Temple Pantheon of Gods/Temple to the Many/Temple of the gods/home of the gods
Cathederal Grand Temple of the many etc
Monument Home of the gods? (we need to have a look at Hinduism that might help..., same as the Ormzad i think there gods are linked...)

@Psychic_Llamas seems to be the best way to go about it... unless someone can come up with better

@Helpful people please read all the posts before passing Judgement and a blistering counterattack...

@Lord Olleus ouch that comment hurt... and wasnt justified i dont know but were the pretty lists we made just for show? was discussing the nature of the religions show? im sure you could have deined to tell us if things were possible e.g a limit on the number of religions? etc

Im wondering if the time im pouring into this is worth it if thats the response. I have been deliberating on the matter since that post was posted... and i still havent come to answer if someone wants to assist me in my descion then please do


Sorry, I didn't mean that at all. Rather, I wanted to say that as there are millions of possible religions, we should think about what we want religions to do, and then add religions that fit the bill. This is generaly much easier than the other way.

Personaly, I think that as this is Warhammer, the main functions of religions should be 1) UU's and 2) Culture, (compared to diplomatic relations and money, in Vanilla civ) as most culture in warhammer is based on religion. So, we need religions that are warlike and are the basis of the culture in which they exist. Also, as religions are founded in Civ, all religions that have been added need some sort of founder (or a city that is the Holy City in 'RL'). I think that this rules out the Old faith as that corresponds more to
paganism in Civ4 than a formal religion.

Unfortunately, I am not well versed in Warhammer lore so I can't think of any specific suggestion, but maybe this well help you...

@Lord Olleus ;) thank you for the explanation

@Lord Olleus i can see what you are getting at we were just trying to catorgarize the faiths into catorgories oddly enough :lol: to get an idea of what goes where and when... i agree it would help if we knew what we want religions to do, the problem is how warhammer religions work they all do different things e.g

Chaos isnt interested in converting people just taking over the world, those that fight for the Chaos gods have an us and them mentality Chaos tribes dont try to convert and to my knowelgde dont treat the "play" Chaos people who worship Chaos in the empire etc very well... The chaos gods themselves hate all other gods and fight amongst themselves...

Compare that to lets say Sigmarite worship, The Church of Sigmar is more concerned with maintaining its own worshippers than converting people, it doesnt have so much of an us and them mentality but it does tend to look on some gods with scorn and others with comardeship...

Its just the religions themselves have a set way of doing things, giving Chaos only fighting buffs wouldnt fit it doesnt capture Chaos as more than that, not the insidous evil lurking at the gate waiting to drag the unsuspecting and weak into its schemes to take over the world and remake it in its own image, where the militarism is only but a part in the puzzle. Of course Chaos without super fighting abilities wouldnt be Chaos to the majority of players :lol: so we sorta get stuck on that...

@Lord Olleus i dont know... UU's yes to an extent many UU's are derived from the faiths of nations they represent, Warrior Priests of god X,Y,C etc, Skinks and Saurus are living constructs of the "gods" the all powerful creators the old ones etc

But Culture? does Chaos, Goblins, Orcs, Skaven etc have culture in a conventional civ sense...? do they occupy stuff through there great libaries and building? no they just occupy it through force of arms... culture yes but not a human idea of culture just a zone of control and what they exert there wills on... :lol: (otherwise i agree with you... Vanilla civ religion ideas dont work here :D)

I just think that religions should be tailored to the attitude of its worshipers and the way its is worshipped... Dwarf gods are just idealized representations of themselves... albiet representations that exist from the power of belief there belivers give them... they even look like what there believers want them to look like...

Your right the founding of a religion should have an event... a reason to bother to change.. free warrrior priets of sigmar popping up from cities and free units appearing when you convert as well as a nice civic change or 2 for free would be a reason to change from whatever faith you had before... and if that faith came into being and you didnt make it your state faith ANARCHY!!! etc? often there is no reason in Vanilla Civ to change from religion to religion execept to keep your neighbours happy? and that isnt very warhamemr ish...

Sorry - I've been studying

@ Masada. I play High Elves, I don't want to cause offence here, but kindly allow me to know a bit about my favourite race. Also, please stop confusing High Elves and Eldar. Eldar are your capracious nutjobs (I play them too, so I know the difference).

@ Phychic Llama

Regarding my organised religion idea.

Essentially:

1) In The Warhammer World, gods exist

2) Gods of the same pantheon can probably coexist together

3) Gods of different pantheons are unlikely to.

4) Religious 'crusades' and 'exterminations' are facts of life

Therefore, I suggested the ability to be able to remove non-state religions.

The problem with breaking the pantheons down from the current 'racial' base to a 'god/cult' base, is that AFAIK precludes point number 2. This is, of course, assuming you would only be able to choose a single cult.

For example - Assume I'm playing High Elves (cos I know them :D), and I have them worshipping Asuryan. Then I found the cult of Isha, so now I have Asur as my state religion and Isha as another religion present. Then Achaon next door spreads chaos into my cities, and I want to remove it.

The way they are currently implemented in most mods/games, the features I've proposed will work as follows:

Organised Religion - halts the spread of non-state religions:
This will allow the spread of Asur, halt the spread of chaos undivided, but also halt the spread of Isha, which I want because it's characterful (and suppose I founded it too).

Inquisitor (or whatever) - removes non-state religions
Will remove the taint of chaos, but will ALSO remove the worship of Isha.

Thus, breaking things down into cults is a lot more work and quite possibly a lot of coding. The current system of racial gods sidesteps all these issues. Thus, it is SIMPLER to use.

Now.

@ Masada

High Elves started worshipping Chaos. The Cult of Pleasure was founded by Morathi sometime between -4500 and -4900 by the Imperial Calander, during the reign of Aenarion.

"To everyone's surprise, Aenarion took another wife, the strange, mysterious and beautiful seeress Morathi whom he had rescued from a band of Slaanesh worshippers... The courst of Aenarion was a wild place, full of desperate gaiety and feverish mirth. Many cruel sports were practised, such as hunting captured prisoners. Dark rumours abounded."

Then, during the reign of Bel Shanaar the Explorer (-4419 to -2750),

"On [Malekith's] return he found an island in the grip of suspician. The Cult of Pleasure was strongest in Nagarythe, his homeland and the site of his father's court. His mother the Lady Morathi had long been a devotee of the cult. Indeed, legend has it that she was one of its founding members and was its high priestess. The Phoenix King was growing worried about the Cult of Luxury. Its excesses had already degenerated into the sacrifice of living being and its Chaotic nature was increasingly evident. The dark name of Slaanesh was increasing associated with it."

Emphasis mine. This happened just before Malekith turned them over to Bel Shanaar and exiled the lot of them to Naggaroth, the beginnings of the Dark Elves, who he later joined. The point is - the Dark Elves started as High Elves who worshipped Slaanesh. High Elves worshipping Chaos is nothing new.

Regarding the 'goodness' of High Elves. Unfortunately for you, High Elves are good. Largely speaking, the warhammer world is divided into two factions - those connected to Chaos, and those opposed to Chaos. Chaos used both specifically (as in the corrupting magics) and the general term (which is where Orcs and Goblins and to a lesser extent Skaven join in). High Elves are very strongly in the Anti-Chaos camp. Fundamentally, High Elves seek order. If you want to know what they yearn towards you really need to look at how they lived before the first Chaos incursion. However, the only hints come from the brief notes at the start of Aenarion's reign...

"All the Elves could do was flee. Their bows and spears, used only for hunting and duels of honour, were useles against the armour of the Chaos warriors and the brazen hides of Daemons" - Emphasis mine.

I think you're getting confused between 'good' and 'nice'. No one ever said Elves were NICE. They are clever, highly sophisticated, and were civilised when mankind was still swinging through the trees. Thus it does make them rather cold and hauty. They are also quite volatile being 'quick to anger, and slow to forgive'. Which makes sense really - well, the slow to forgive part. If your contemporaries are going to live for several centuries, you have TIME to kiss and make up later.

You also need to realise that it was a very altruistic act on behalf of three High Elves (Teclis, Yrtle and Finreir) that allowed humanity any knowledge of magic at all. Teclis founded the colleges of magic and taught it to humans to keep chaos at bay - that is an act of goodness. Especially considering that, as Finreir pointed out "Elves and men had come to blows in the past and might do so again".

Regarding Wood Elves
High Elves and Wood Elves don't have too much in common - well that's not true. The Elves of Averlorn have much in common with wood elves - they just don't leave Averlorn. However, there IS contact between them - just not much trade, which is, after all, the main reason the Elves sail around the world.

During the Reign of Bel Hathor The Sage (1503-2162), Ulthuan suffered from Norse Raids. Bel Hathor closed it off from humans entirely. During his reign, Finubar (the Current Phoenix King), travelled the world:

"Finubar sailed to L'Anguille in Bretonnia and from there spent fifty years wandering over the continent...In his travels he came upon the lost Elf realm of Athel-Loren. He was at once shcoked and amazed by what he found there. The Elves of the old frontier province had taken a far different path from the High Elves. They seemed rustic and backward and yet they were friendlier and easier from him to understand than the humans." - Emphasis mine.

From this, and from the fact that in 5th Ed you were able to take Wood Elves as allies, it can be concluded that until very recently, the High Elves had lost contact with the Wood Elves entirely. Are they rustic and backward - yes. Does that meant they're seen as barbaric and scorned - no. There simply isn't much for them to get together about - there's not much trade, so there's little contact needed.

Wood Elves are Allied with Bretonnia. It is a formal Alliance, forged primarily between Ariel (who takes care of diplomacy AFAIK) and the current Brettonian King - Louis Leon-something or other. I'm not too familiar with the fine details, and it'll take me a few months to hunt them down as I don't have all my books here.

A note on Asuryan. Asuryan isn't a god of war. He is a god of FATE. "He is the Creator, and the Flame Eternal, the giver of life, rests in his hand. The Elves believe that it is his Purpose and Plan that they follow.

Oh - The high Elves also worship Morai-Heg, the crone goddess of the underworld and served by Banshees... She's on pg. 75 of the 5th Ed High Elf book. Loec the Shadow Dancer appears on page 90.

Khaine is metioned on page 11:
"The Elves see Khaine as a god of unleashed violence. For them he is a dark god, but a necessary one, for they live in a violent world and must be able to fight when called upon to do so. Khaine is part of every Elf soul, a part they would rather never have to confront, but a part that they need. His muder lust is there to be used when danger threatens but it must be controlled and used wisely. Elf rituals of Khaine worship stress this need for control." Emphsis mine.

The high elves, do worship Khaine.

Dark elves are different having 'given themselves over entirely to [Khaine's] worship', and 'actively seek[ing] opportunites to cause death and carnage'.

If you think about it - that's a very good way to distinguish between 'good' and 'evil'. I'm not looking for a fight or a flame war, but Masada - you've said yourself that you don't know quite that much about Warhammer Elves. I do.

Regarding the Civ religions - I could help out with various religious 'shrines' and such - but only if you're going to go there.

Khaine would have the Cauldron of Blood (although that might be DE specific), the Altar of Khaine, and the Sword of Khaine.

Isha would have...hmm... for some reason the Oak of Ages and Gaen Vale are the only two things that spring to mind.

Anyway. I need to go study for exams now...

@Arathlan i agree that high elves are not as bad as Eldar... they still are horrendously arrogant and self centered.. but aside from all their faults they are not eldar...

@Arathlan yes and no to organized religions. Inquisitor/witch hunters/priests of morr whatever they do remove religions/ideologies from areas... through burnings/killings etc and I do think they should play a part in the mod. However there are notable exceptions where I don’t think its justified... some civs don’t have any kind of religious give examples include Lizardmen, Chaos sorta etc they have no reason to worship other gods or there religion exempts them from it.

I also agree with Racial gods.. but cults do play a part, a limited implementation of them would be preferable to a full scale implementation. The Lady and Sigmar are Brettionia and the Empire incarnate they represent the national character and the nation as a whole. Its a bit rich to say that they are just cults they are religions and important... individual chaos cults, no chaos cult cult would be good just to represent that dynamic that is chaos.

@Arathlan i agree that Slannesh worship in the high elves was fairly strong... but to the extent of taking over the nation? that I don’t think is a logical conclusion, the Dark elf book states that many of the exiles had done nothing wrong they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

On the wood elf debate.. let it be said that Wood elves have changed a great deal since 5th edition... just look at the old army book and the new and tell me an about face hasn’t happened. However nothing much in this matters.. we could keep throwing arguments and counter arguments around for a fair bit... so lets leave it alone.

I will wade into the argument about "good" and "evil'...

So they fight Chaos? everyone does... everyone even Chaos fights itself big deal Chaos spends more of its time fighting itself that it does fighting anyone else... If we applied that logic to good and evil... then Archaon would be a saint he killed a heck of alot of other Chaos warlords and his own supporters. Lizardmen would fall pretty low in the Chaos killing count wouldn’t they hiding in Lustria so Lizardmen are evil by that definition... oh and Dark elves fight Chaos alot.... are they good?

It doesn’t matter if you fight Chaos or not. Orc's and Goblins are not evil, simply speaking they cannot do anything else its how they are. Saurus are living weapons created just for that purpose they cannot be evil its what they do. Its like saying that a spider is evil because it kills other spiders, its what that spider does. Everything in the Warhammer world is a construct or the result of a freak accident. The constructs were created by the old ones given different purposes and all bar 3 are failing in that given purpose. Skinks, Saurus and Slann are the only constructs doing their jobs properly.

How can a living tool designed for a purpose and doing that purpose be evil. The old ones must have been beyond smart.. they are living gods in the scope of their power. Simply speaking all of the races are babes in arms compared to them.

Elves are clever so? highly sophisticated perhaps, civilized compared to humanity for a time yes. Yes they are cold and haughty. They are volatile being quick to anger and cold to forgive but then so are alot of humans. They do live for a long period that allows some of there faults to forgiven..

Elves are clever much good it has done them they act like humans just on a longer time period. They make mistakes, cause rifts etc. But they are relics, they have not advanced in any great way for a long long long time (you cant say they haven’t had the time to do it), they haven’t reconciled there "wayward" kin and i sympathize with the Dark elves there methods might be disgusting but there reasons are understandable. They are dying out and have really made no concentrated attempt to stop it. Are isolationist bigots with very low regard for the rest of the world and consider themselves somehow better than everyone else.

Altruistic? i call it self preservation.. and common sense the High elves would have lost and been destroyed maybe it would have taken a 100 years or 200 but they would have died completely.. Altruistic if you are completely arrogant, self centered, bigoted and stupid in the extreme. They didn’t do it out of any high minded principle they did it because it was the smartest thing to do. "Elves and men had come to blows in the past and might do so again" so? i don’t see any concentrated human genocidal plan to annihilate all the elves in the world.. but the Chaos gods most certainly hold that plan very close to their chests. So given a choice between a potential foe and a foe whose job, existence and planning involves removing my whole race from the world i know who i would give help to... better an a foe who isn’t trying to wipe you out than a foe who is...

And if i may correct you on the assumption that humanity had no knowledge before the elves showed them... human mages in the empire existed just in secret because it offensive to the cult of Sigmar. None the less Magnus the Pious (Sigmar reincarnate) even before Teclis, Yrtle and Finreir was amenable to magic.

Its gothic Fantasy there is no real good, it isn’t LOTR (which is sickening in the extreme sometimes...) there is no absolute good. We could be going at this for a long time but I don’t think it helps the mod one bit... i don’t like elves you like elves I vote we end hostilities.

Wood elves and Brettonian official treat is said not to exist in the Brettionian current army book...

I know about Morai-Heg and Loec. Khaine is worshipped by all elves... but in differening amounts do high elves sacrifice hundreds of slaves and members of there own family to Khaine every year? It can be argued that Asuryan has the most power withing the High elves...

On this note we are just trying to show the way the Pantheon is stacked or at least worshipped. Psychic_Llamas mentioned that fact somewhere along the conversation..

Yes and i want to avoid a flame war but i have still played elves (of all types at some stage) read their army books... and i do like the fluff of Warhammer more than the game itself and i read everything. But yes i do want to avoid a flame war lets leave the above comments as is. And flame wars mean I have to start typing in perfect grammatical English, which I loathe I speak perfect English but written English…

:wow: that was a rather long debate :lol: i agree with absolutely everything that Arathlan said about the elves. and i agree with what Masada said about 'Good and Evil'

but, getting out of that discussion and a little back on track, i took into account you suggestions Masada and Arathlan. But im not sure if ive overpowered all of these. i feel i have, but just take a look and see what you think.

@ Olleus, can you tell me if any of the ideas in this are easy to do? there are a couple of new concepts i think.


The "Old Faiths" Religion:
In General:
Old Faiths has a slow spread rate.
with more expensive, powerful priests than other religions.
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be more expensive, but will have stronger effects than the other religions.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Old Faith sub religion.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Old Faith sub religion. Can heal units.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Old Faiths sub religion. Can heal units.


Sub Religions:
-The Old Faith
Can only build Altars. Each Altar makes Priests and magic casters slightly cheaper, and allows all priests of the Old Faith to act as a normal mage and thus start with one free spell from any of the 8 Winds of magic.
Altars also produce +1 Magic Commerce.
The Monument gives all new priests of the Old Faith built in this city another free spell from any of the 8 Winds of magic.
---Buildings:
Altar= Coven
Temple= none
Cathedral= none
Monument= Monument of Nature
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Witch
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)---Druid
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)---Arch Druid (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-Asuryanism
All Asuryan priests have free access to the Winds of Fire as any normal fire mage would. Mage priests of Asuryan can also act as inquisitors to remove non-state religions. All Altars produce +1 happiness. Temples and cathedral also produce an additional +1 Happiness in their cities if it has access to Incense.
---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Flame
Temple= Temple of Asuryan
Cathedral= Hall of the Phoenix
Monument= The Shrine of Asuryan
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) ---Asuryan Dedicate
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priest of Asuryan
High Priest (requires Cathedral) ---Mage Priest of Asuryan (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-Cult of Khaine
units built in cities with: Altar gain +1 EXP, Temple gain +1 more EXP, Cathedral gain +1 more EXP. Priests of the Cult of Khaine are able to enslave defeated enemies. Slaves may be sacrificed in cities with Altars, Temples or Cathedral to: Rush a building, make an instant +10 Science, or to add +1 EXP to one Priest of the Cult of Khaine present In the city.
---Buildings:
Altar= The Blood Altar
Temple= Temple of Khaine
Cathedral= Hall of Murder
Monument= The Sword of Khaine
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) ---Acolyte of Khaine
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priestess of Khaine
High Priest (requires Cathedral) ---Bride of Khaine (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-Followers of Isha
All workers are unable to cut forests of clear jungle. Cities with Altar gain +1 food from forests. Cities with Temples gain +1 Happiness from forests. High Priests are able to plant forests. All High priests of the Followers of isha have the spell “Isha’s Blessing” (which is a variant of the WE spell ‘Ariel’s Blessing’) which gives the target unit ‘regeneration’ until the start of the next turn.
---Buildings:
Altar= Sacred Tree
Temple= Isha's Grove
Cathedral= Oaken Hall
Monument= The Tears of Isha
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) --- Handmaiden of Isha
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priestess of Isha
High Priest (requires Cathedral) --- High Priestess of Quyl-Isha (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-Dwarven Pantheon
cities with the: Altar gain +10% defence, Temple gain another +5% defence, +1 Science, Cathedral gain another +5% defence, +1 Science. All units built in the city with the monument have the ‘stubborn’ ability.
---Buildings:
Altar= Oath Tablet
Temple= Temple of the Dwarf Gods
Cathederal= Hall of the Elders
Monument= The Book of Grudges
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) --- Acolyte of the Dwarf Gods
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priest of the Dwarf Gods
High Priest (requires Cathedral) --- Warrior-Priest of the Dwarf Gods (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-The Old Ones
All Priests of the Old Ones are able to enslave defeated opponents. Slaves can be sacrificed in cities with the: Altar to produce an instant +10 magic commerce. Temple to produce an extra instant +10 magic commerce, Cathedral to produce an extra instant +10 Science. Mage priests of the old Ones act as a normal Mage and can choose magic from any of the Winds of magic like a normal mage.
---Buildings:
Altar= Sacrificial Altar
Temple= Temple of the old Ones
Cathederal= Pyramid Temple
Monument= The Marks of the Old Ones
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) --- Prophet of the Old Ones
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priest of the Old Ones
High Priest (requires Cathedral) --- Mage-Priest of the Old Ones (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-Ormzad Pantheon
Cities with the: Altar get +1 Happiness , Temple get +1 Happiness from Incense and priests of the Ormzad pantheon built in those cities get the ‘inquisitor’ ability, Cathedral are immune to the spread of non state religion. All priests of the Ormzad Pantheon built in cities with the Cathedral are able to summon elementals and act like normal elementalists.
---Buildings:
Altar= Obelisk to the Gods
Temple= Temple of Al-Anon
Cathedral= Al-Anon Grand Temple Complex
Monument= Al-Anon’s Garden
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) --- Ormzad Initiate
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priest of Ormzad
High Priest (requires Cathedral) --- Great Sage of Ormzad (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


-The Indic Pantheon
Altars produce +1 great People Points. Temples give + 1 Culture, Cathedrals Gain +1 gold. The Home of the Gods produces +1 Gold for every Acolyte of the Indic Pantheon. All High Priests of the Indic pantheon are able to instantly construct any of the Indic pantheon religious Buildings at the cost of being sacrificed. In doing so the indic pantheon is also spread to the chosen city.
\---Buildings:
Altar= Shrine of the Inner-Self
Temple= Temple of the Thousand
Cathedral= Hall of the Thousand
Monument= The Home of the Gods
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) --- Pilgrim of the Thousand
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priest of the Thousand
High Priest (requires Cathedral) --- Great Sage of the Thousand(World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)



Oh and thanks for all the input you guys are giving us. its all bound to help. Thanks :D

So Psychic_Llamas you agree that elves are evil and that they are "rather cold and hauty. They are also quite volatile being 'quick to anger, and slow to forgive'." and everything thing else i pointed out elves to be ;)

Twisting your meaning a bit but not far thanks Psychic_Llamas for the support!! :lol: ELVES ARE EVIL!! :lol:

had to have a last go...

@Psychic_Llamas the Old faiths in general

Could the high priest do "miracles" aka magic? all the preists in those cults do have minor powers like all priests :D

Old human faith i agree with all of it however i still want them to be split into east vs west :D but it doesnt really matter fundimentally they would be the same religion...

Asuryanism yeah i agree with stuff that the religion gives

Khaine drop the 10% science boost... how does sacrificing slaves give science :P and i think that is to good...

Dwarven Pantheon perfect as is :D suits there nature but abolish magic for dwarves and give them magic resitance or make them stronger...

Followers of Isha yay woodelves can spread there forests... *evil laugh* bring on guerilla promotios :D

The Old Ones priests should be slann for the last tier or for all of it... make them very expenisve but very very good :D Slann after all are the best mages in the world by a mile :D

Ormzad Pantheon great perfect :D

The Indic Pantheon perfect its fits them to tee :D

There's only 1 thing I'm slightly confused about here. How do you want sub-religions to work? Do they work like normal religions?

@ masada: ELVES ARE NOT EVIL!! *ehem*

@ Olleus: well, what i was thinking is this:
there are the 7 core religions:
-Old Faiths
-Young Gods
-Dark Children
-Chaos Cults
-Gods of Law
-Mortal Gods.
-Barbaric Gods
these all act EXACTLY the same way that normal religions work.
however, these core religions have no temples or priests allocated to them until the civ researches one of the techs that gives access to the many sub religions. i will use the Old Faiths religion as an example:

Ok, so i found the "Old Faiths" in my second city. simple. the old faiths, because its major religious characteristics are that it has a slower spread rate than the other religions, will spread slower (duh). this is pretty crappy until the civ researches one of the 8 techs which allow them to build temples and priests of a certain sub religion.
so next i research the tech which gives me access to "The Followers of isha" sub religion, which in turn allows me to build the Isha specific buildings
-Altar (Sacred Tree),
-Temple (Isha's Grove)
-Cathedral (Oaken Hall)
-Monument (The Tears of Isha),
and the isha specific Priests:
-Acolyte (Handmaiden of Isha),
-Priest (Priestess of Isha),
-High Priest (High Priestess of Quyl-Isha)

however, for the sub religion to be initiated, (ie before the civ can build any of the sub religion's temples or priests), they must first build the monument in a city with the Core Religion, in this case the Tears of Isha must be built in my second city as none of my others have the Old Faiths religion.
once the monument is built, altars can be built in all cities, which also give access to the acolyte, in this case my Handmaidens of Isha. i must build 3 altars before i can start building temples, which means i must expand my empire 1 more city and build an Altar in it. (temples can only be built in cities with an Altar already in them) then i can start building my Temples which allow me to build the Priests, in this case the Priestess of Isha. once i have 3 Temples i can do the same with Cathedrals, (which can also only be built in cities with a temple already in them.) which give access to the High Priests, or my High Priestess of Quyl-Isha.

the temples specific to the Followers of isha religion will have different effectes to those from the Dwarven Pantheon, or the Cult of Khaine. as you can see in my above post. the priests will also be different, with different abilities and magical capabilities, (but with the same base stats or movement and attack)

i was hoping that these sub religions will greatly diversify the religions capabilities, albiet it will make a heck of a lot more work for us. it seems sound to me, but there is just the issue of converting to a different sub religion. i haven't been able to come up with any decent ideas for that.

Did that make sense:confused:


@Masada: yeh, i was hoping that we could have a range of spells for priest specifically to use, a 'good' spell list for the 'good' religions, such as healing, and ressurecting, and turning undead. butthen another spell list for the 'evil' religions, such as death based, summon deamon/undead, and a heal spell. each level of priest could have different access to these spells, gaining greater access the higher up the priesthood they are. (some priests could also have a special access to other winds of magic, liket the Priests of Asuryan getting some fire magic too.)

North and south human sub religions go in the "Young Gods" core religion, not the "Old Faiths".

i was thinking Khaine gives those who he gets sacrifices from extra knowledge, giving them an instant +10 science (not percentage, just a one off +10). seems logical to me, do you still disagree?

perhaps we could give the dwarven Pantheon priests magic resistance instead of priest spells? 9that would mean no healing though... perhaps just give them some priest spells but also magic resistance?

Slann mage priests are going to be Lizardman specific and can only be built by Lizardmen. they are the Lizardman UU basically. these will just be a generic looking priest. (perhaps a skink like tehenuini?)


Cool, thanks for the feedback :D

@Psychic_Llamas ;) we know the real answer :lol: oh and your relgion system is perfect :D might require some ironing out but oh well...

yeah the coding will be nasty pretty bloody complex but i faith in the procedings :D

Converting to another sub religion would be easy... half of old relgions buildings die the effects are halved? massive civil unrest make the empire unplayable for a couple of turns... i have always thought that sorta upheaval was underplayed in vanilla civ...

end of anarchy period large amounts of new units appear from that sub religion of course if they have an inquistor option good bye all relics of the old faith :D and maybe a percentage of the units in your empire?

New religions tend springing into be tend to be bloody affairs so its best to represent that weaken the player but also give them something in return for all that weakening might make large static games more interesting but thats my 2 bobs worth

@Psychic_Llamas sorry about that North South human comment wasnt thinking... ooppppssss

And lizardmen priests are there mages they are one and the same and slann mages should be UU for lizardmen... they are in the fluff utter gods (go back in the rules a bit and have a look at what they were capable of :D) capable of whipping up cyclones if they feel so inclined etc... Frogs of death :D

i was thinking Khaine gives those who he gets sacrifices from extra knowledge, giving them an instant +10 science (not percentage, just a one off +10). seems logical to me, do you still disagree?


I was thinking more a magic-currency bonus. (not included yet)

Either a single turn % bonus or a flat bonus.


Edit: on leader traits.
Maybe it would be better to have racial-traits, specific for orcs/gobbos/elves/dwarves/skaven/human (default) etc.
That way we need not clutter the leader specs of metaspecies and they'll still have space for traits such as aggression and Arcane etc.

Dwarven racial traits:
-stubborn :wil not forget any slight (might be better coded hidden in the diplomatic memory stats.... )
-magically inert. : 0% magicpoints generation multiplier, +2 general dispells/turn.
-tunnelling:
-units in cities count as being in a walled city. building a citywall increases defence (fortified entrances).
-specialised worker units can build tunnels, when mining is researched.
-long lived / superior constitution: +1 health in cities

Amazing system Lama. You are a genius.
Just to clarify:
You can only have a 'Core' religion as a state religion. Not sub religions.
Sub religions to not spread like normal religions. Instead they are 'initiated' (for lack of a better word) in a city which already has a core religion by building an altar.
Once a city has that altar it has access to a whole range of sub religion specific buildings and uniques.

Did I understand that right?

Only problem now is to make the vast amount of buildings and units nesecary, program all of this in, and make the Ai understand it.

Still, great idea!

@Arexack_heretic (is that Ploe? im lost and confused...) but yeah i agree Greenskins, Dwarves, Elves, Constructs (Khemeri, Lizardmen, Sylvania could also have a single racial thing? represents them being created... since they are not natural and dont learn in the normal sense) could split humans into Eastern and Western humans? but not that complex and not that many bonuses just a simple tweek...

@Lord Olleus im not speaking for Psychic_Llamas but yeah thats how i was thinking it would work... reasearch base religon and customize it by building altars for different sub cults (there should be consequences to having 2 different sub cults/religons in a city/empire... should make it desirable to use inquistors and religion... which i always felt was second fiddle to everything else :D

How about adding a Spiral Minett/University of Sankore like buildings for each sub religion? That way, you have quite a lot of incentive to make that religion the dominant one in your empire, but have no reason (or in fact, ability) to spread your subreligion to other civs; which fits quite well into the WFB world were religions are rarely enforced onto others.

@Lord Olleus i agree that would be great

Would it be possible lets say if there were 2 base religions in the city to have an negative to happyness? giving an additional reason not to have multiple religions in a city...

I was also thinking that an event might be programmed into the religions... if 50% of your population does not worship your state religion/cult... then outright anarchy begins to take hold...

Im just trying to think of ways to make religion seem important... (dont hurt me... :lol: )

:lol: Hey! dont give ploe all the credit! :p :lol:
jk, thanks olleus :D

yes, basically that sums up what i was trying to say pretty well.
the number of buildings and new units required to implement this tactic is the biggest drawback :( oh well, at least well keep our Art monkeys happy :D

i was initially thinking of making the 'Monument' buildings act like Spiral Miniarets, and some, (like the Ind monument) could have additional benefits.

@ olleus: is it possible to add a new button and screen to the Religion advisor? perhaps make an identical screen to that of the 'base religions' which shows the 7 core religions, but then have another screen listing the sub religions avaliable to the civs current state religion. in this new screen we could have another button, same as the 'convert' button in the core religion screen, but which only changes the sub religion (perhaps instead of anarchy have 75% of the religious buildings from the old sub religion being destroyed, and the remining 25% loosing thier unique benefits (but keeping thier culture boost))

@ olleus: on a coding matter, is this method going to be relatively painless on your part? will it be a simple matter to get the AI to understand it? will the above new screen be possible?

@ Arexack: well, why do you think the racial trait shoud be 'invisible' ie not show in the leader selecting screen? i personally think it would be benefitial for the player to SEE what the racial traits benefits and drawbacks are. it would be frustrating to not understand why, for instance, Dwarves can use magic because it isnt shown as the racial trait. anywho, thats my oppinion:)
nice ideas for the dwarf trait though, ill put those in as a list of possible benifits.

@ masada: i think having opposing sub religions producing unhappyness is a briliant idea, im sure it should be possible.
oh, and why would we hurt you? your too valuable a source of ideas :D

Thanks for the feedback guys :D

EDIT: updated the post on religions on the first page of this thread.

@Psychic_Llamas i agree its all well and good to say it could run like this... but the big question is it feasible (praying for a yes)

@Psychic_Llamas im not even sure that just opposing sub religions producing unhappyness... all sub religions should do... if possible to a greater and lesser degree :D

@Psychic_Llamas there should be reasons to change sub faith and religion (apart from diplomatic reasons...) lets say if 50%+ of your population no longer worship your sub faith (something like (sub faith buildings/population pointsXsub faith buildings 2/population points>if greater than 50=CHAOS!!! not the religion silly :P)

Just utter anarchy... forcing the player to either eradicate the other faith or to convert to the new faith and eradicate the old one... (all part of the reason why organized religion stopping non state spreads would=:cry: ) just to make religions worth something apart from UU's, building and traits...

and i cant rember the last time i ever used an inquisitor in a mod that had them.. just wasnt enough reason to make them then use them...

Some religions that sprung up quickly should spread really quickly at least at the start... of course empires falling apart for a few turns would be great as they decide if they wanna fight the new faith or convert...

And having UU's for that religion show up when you convert to it would be cool...and having a % of your old units leaving (normal units, the old faiths units having allready gone...) would be fun...

Might just be me but changes in religion tend to be a bit more bloody than changes in goverment..? if everyone just doesnt convert en masse...

And of course Warhammer is a gothic parody of the real world... the empire spent 3 quarters of her history fighting amongst itself.. Araby has spent most of its history killing itself... Estalia was a religous battleground for quite a while... etc to lazy to type atm

[Takes a bow] Im only a source of good ideas... i though i was more than that :P :lol:

Do we really want to have a state sub religion? The way I see it, sub religions of the same core religion can coexist without any problem and can be worshiped by the state. Just look at the Empire; both Sigmar and Ulric are worshpied almost equaly. However, if you want to get the cool buildings and units, you need to have a lot of altar and temples, so you have little reason to actively build buildings for several faiths. As well as that if the spiral minaret type building is quite strong, then the buildings associated with that sub religion are going to be a lot stronger, so you would be more inclined to build those buildings. This means that even if you can have several sub religions coexisting together, you are very much encouraged to spread mostly one (or maybe two). However, it should be impossible to build the buildings of a subreligion which does not belong to your state religion (which is a core religion).

About the implementation. Feel free to skip this section if it bores you.
I plan to add a new tag called <CoreReligion> to the religionsInfo.xml. This tag defines if a religion is a sub religion, and if it is, what core religion does it belong too. All sub religions will be defined in the same way as core religion, with only that tag showing the difference. The religious advisor will be modified to only show core religions on the top bar but a new bar will be added just below that which shows all the sub religions for the selected core religion. Will show all sub religions present in cities at all times. The city screen will be modified, so that only the religions and sub religions present in the cities are shown (as it is, religions present are greyed out - they willb e removed completely for space). On the main screen, you will be able to see the icons for each religion and sub religion present in the city.

A new tag will be added to BuildingsInfo.xml called <SpreadReligion>. What this does is farely obvious. I've checked the xml and there are already seperate tags for <ReligionType>, <StateReligion> and <PrereqReligion>.

Don't know how I'm going to do the AI yet, but hopefully it might do all of this on its own as I am still using mostly the same tags and the same system as before, just with a few extra contraint.

Not all sub-religions/cults need have the same buildings order
(eg shrine/altar>temple>cathedral>panthenon), although this is good for the core religions.
I'd suggest more flavourfull bonusses/penalties, special units and buildings for the subreligions.

For instance evil death/murder cults like f.i. the cult of Khaine could give the elven player
-access to assasins (powerfull unit against heros etc or maybe an opportunity to assassinate a great person of a civ in which an assasin has been installed.)
-some happyness/barraks type buildings, like fighting pits
in cities with the Khaine religion.

A drawback could be that these cults are outlawed under Imperial rule or somesuch powerfull civics.
And in that case cause unhappyness instead, without the bonusses.
Also an extension to this drawback could be a negative relations modifier from nations adhering a lawfull/imperial civic.

This would probably play havoc with the AI though.
Other cults may be more standard in their structure. Allowing the usual religious buildings-clade and a special religious unit. Flaggelants / Sigmarite Hammerers / witchhunter~Inquisitor,
some with specific sub-tech req or building req, besides the req religion.


Edit: a side thought.
I find myself ignoring the magic tree, because it is so damn expensive (non-functionallity not considered). Maybe we could enhance the magic-advancements by allowing great-magicians to be born. These would function like other greatpersons in tech advances. (a free tech or 750RP advancement in a arcane-tech)
Generation of great magicians is by a civspecific/racialtrait #(arcane)culturepoints further modified by special magical buildings/ResidentGreatMagicians/leadertraits/etc.

@masada: im not sure if we want to make religions such a defining factor in this mod, just something new and interesting, but not totally necessary. this means that perhaps having such huge penalties and chaos to converting sub religions isnt a good idea. i would rather stick to olleus's point of the Sub religions of each core religion coexisting peacefully unless specifically said not to (Eg perhaps the Khaine religion could produce unhappyness and -population growth (simulating the Priests of Khaine rampaging and sacrificing everyone) if Asuryan or Isha are present in the same city.

i think that the idea that sub religions coexisting toegether is a good idea. however, the player may end up exploiting this to get the best benefits of each sub religion. there needs to be some even middleground between masada's anarchy and olleus's coexistance.

@ olleus:
thats a fair point about having a sub state religion. i think your idea of having a new bar below the core religions in the religious advisor is a brilliant idea. and if you think it will work, the thats even better:)

Now, back to the details of the "Old Faiths" sub religions, is everyone happy with those at the moment? is it balanced? not too overpowered? any better ideas for names etc
if everyone's happy then we might as well move on to the next core religion :)


PS im not going to be avaliable for 12 days after today, so please, continue the discussions while im gone.:D

@Psychic_Llamas only allowing 1 sub religion buildings to be built in a city would be a good idea... (maybe that could be expanded to the whole empire?) and having other major religions in your city could inspire chaos/anarchy to erupt? Additionally having minor religions building from the non state faith could cause unhappyness in cities? (prompting people to only take so many cities off a nation because taking to much would make your empire a bit difficult to run... and it would make people utilize there religion for something else... other than diplomancy... so invasions would typically have inquistors and priests accompanying an invasion as well as the actual attacking units... to convert and overrun the nation... of course with inquisitors being having national limit 3... that would limit the amount of cities a player can take within reason...?)

Thats my middle ground... it slows down expansion and makes religion into something interesting, useful but still secondary to the rest of the game... wouldnt matter if you only take 3 enemy cities with the other cults in them... you could take the unhappyness 10 though... and outright anarchy...

@@Psychic_Llamas only allowing 1 sub religion buildings to be built in a city would be a good idea... (maybe that could be expanded to the whole empire?) and having other major religions in your city could inspire chaos/anarchy to erupt? Additionally having minor religions building from the non state faith could cause unhappyness in cities? (prompting people to only take so many cities off a nation because taking to much would make your empire a bit difficult to run... and it would make people utilize there religion for something else... other than diplomancy... so invasions would typically have inquistors and priests accompanying an invasion as well as the actual attacking units... to convert and overrun the nation... of course with inquisitors being having national limit 3... that would limit the amount of cities a player can take within reason...?)

Thats my middle ground... it slows down expansion and makes religion into something interesting, useful but still secondary to the rest of the game... wouldnt matter if you only take 3 enemy cities with the other cults in them... you could take the unhappyness 10 though... and outright anarchy...

@Psychic_Llamas the faiths wont be balanced till they get put through there paces but atm yeah im happy with them :D

PS Im the same as Psychic_Llamas might not be active for another 7 days :(

I'm not too happy with limiting subreligion(SR) specific buildings.
Unless you mean by one SR building per city, that one should choose for one religion and then can only build buildings of that SR.

example:

a player has 2 cities, he founds a SR and it converts one of his provincial cities. There already was another SR present as well as the core religion. the player can now choose to build buildings of one or the other SR. Core rel buildings are always available.
One problem I foresee is that considdering the building speeds in WHFB all cities will have built the first SR buildings before onother is founded.
There needs to be a way of choosing SR/removing previous buildings from a city with competing SR.


I would like to have building ladders for some constructive/technological/magical/militaristic subreligions.
Although it is not truly neccesary, I'd like to keep the option open.

@Arexack_heretic... umm ere read the posts... but i will clarify that point...

You can only be one subreligion... so yes in that sense you can only build a single type of buildings

We havent decided on the mechanics of what happens if you change sub religion do the buildings get destroyed? if having 2 buildings of a different sub religion gives unhappyness then they stay.. (till the player kills them) of course the specific bonuses would dissapear of be reduced severly...

Sub religions are not going to be religions as such... Core religions are the normal religions you see in vanilla civ (just the warhammer, old gods etc) the sub religions are discovered/founded when you research the tech you then can build the sub religions buildings

As well as i believe you can also build the core religions temples (?not sure)

But yes the sub religion stops you building other sub religions buildings unless you convert to that sub religion in which case the change renders all bonuses from the former sub religion void or drastically reduces them... and you end up with unhappyness if the 2 sub religions building are in the same city AND maybe if there is the other faiths sub religions building in a city without the statereligion it may stay the same apart from the lessening of the effect or it could create a heck of alot of unhappyness (religious minorities or people who havent converted to the new faith, seldom tend to be happy with the state of affairs)

@Arexack_heretic why is the simple question? all magic is derived from the 8 winds of magic.. or from the gods themselves (which derives from belief and the 8 winds of magic...) so giving a special magic tree makes no sense (and its would be way to complex) having UU's with special magical abilities (is still complex but not as complex as seperate magic tree) and it fufils the part nicely...

Technology and constructive is much the same... better to have UU's representing that.. name a few units that are the direct results of a religions technological achievements (there will be of course but they are to rare to bother with and are better represented by UU's for the civ..)

militaristic is difficult to do... but i think it is better represented by the minor religions powers and UU's... generally speaking the militaristic civs of the game would militaristic without the influence of religion (anyone dares say chaos wouldnt be and have a look at what there real world contemperies are modeled... huns, mongols etc tended to fight because they did... Orcs were created to fight Gork and Mork are the result of that they personafy the nature of Orcs it is the Orcs belief that creates and maintans them because Orcs were made like that....)

And the complexity would be mind boggling Core faith reliant tech would be all right? maybe but its better represented by the Core faith/Minor religion bonuses UU's and the civs UU's themselves...

@Masada: racial traits.
Not really invisible, but rather a single trait for a collection of minor traits.
such as
-base agression level.
-magical ability.
-base research level (inginuity)
-tunneling/undergrounders.
-population growth.
etc
@Masada religions etc
Im rather confused now

Will be back soon... ish tommorow from my endevours...

post some suggestions for stuff for me to look at while Psychic_Llamas is away...

@Lord Olleus i cant believe i missed your post... (Hits self)

Do we really want to have a state sub religion?

Yes... Using your example of the Empire, Sigmar and Ulric dont get along never have, never will. Look at the history of the empire and its spent more in civil wars than whole... from 73 years after Sigmar (year of the founding of the Church of Sigmar) to 1124 (Madred Rat Catcher) the empire was riven by civil war between factions. With the emperors puppets of one faction or another and a lot of these wars were between the Ulricivite? East and the Sigmarite West... and to some extent the followers of Taal. Mandred the first real legitimate supported Emperor in almost a thousand years held the empire together for many years then when he died the empire split into 2 factions... the Ottilian Emperors of Tabecland followers of Taal and Electorate Emperors followers of Sigmar/Ulric who elected an emperor that split happened in the year 1360 (i doubt Mandred lived for 200 years.. but I would say the start of the split happened after his reign). That nice civil war happened to 1547 when the Count of Middenhiem declared himself Emperor in the name of Ulric... and that was called the time of 3 emperors... it was only in the year 2302 that Magnus of Nuln managed to pull the elector counts together and defeat chaos that the civil war stopped. On that note the electors did no want him as Emperor instead the people forced them to accept him.. Interrupting 1200 years of civil war. 2428 there was another brief period of civil war and then in that same year Wilhelm Prince of Altdorf deposed the old emperor and became emperor....

In total the time that the empire has been a whole nation... Sigmar Heldenhammer from the year 0-for 2 score and 10 years, Mandred Ratcatcher 1124-for many years, Magnus of Nuln 2304-for many years, 2429-2502 under the Princes of Altdorf... not a great deal longer than 200 years and the years since Sigmar founded the Empire have been 2502 and that was mostly due to religious dislike... between Taal, Sigmar and Ulric but mostly between Sigmar and Ulric

I don’t see having a state sub religion as stopping you build other sub state religions however there should be penalties for doing it (the strength of them I’m going to leave...)... coexistence in religions in warhammer greatly depends... they tend to have set regions where one god/whatever the hell is pre-eminent and another region where another is... its a live and let be policy

I agree building outside your state religion would be a bit silly...

@Lord Olleus ./drools at the coding genius

Note: That’s just an example but it tends to hold true for most civs in warhammer, Darkelves Slaneesh and Khaine etc

Please ignore the spelling, punctuation its so damm bad i know...

"One of Teclis' deeds was to find such low sorcerers and hedge wizards as existed in the empire" The empire had mages before the elves improved upon there skills

"Magnus asked Teclis to help him create an institution whereby wizards might be properly trained... But Teclis rlealised that the safety of the whole world... rested upon the men of the empire"

Will continue later (Empire army book)

well now, im back and it looks like a fair bits gone on.

lets see...
@ Masada: thats a rather interesting concept. i might have to mull over it a bit, but ill give my immediate feedback now:
i think that all of the sub religions under one core religion should be able to co-exists to an extent. this means that, for example, all of the elven sub religions, Isha, Asuryan and Khaine, shoud be able to be present in the same civ. however, to prevent the player from over using this to gain the benefits of all the sub relgions, once an altar is built in a city, no other altar from any other SR from that same core religion can be built until the first one and all the subsequent temples etc are inquisitioned. this way each city can only have 1 SR of each CR present. then if a civ has , say, 'the Old Faiths' as their state religion, and has the Followers of Isha's altar in a city, that same city cannot build any Khaine, Asuryan, Old Faith, Ind or Lizardman etc altars. however, if an opposing CR is spread to this city, and the player builds an altar from that religion in an attemp to gain the benefits of both SR, that city will suffer from a -1 happyness penalty, and the unique abilities of both SR will be lost untill one of the SR is inquisitioned.
I hope that made sense.

@ AH: i wasnt planning on having any buildings for the CR, so only SR have buildings and what not. i dont think there is any need for CR buildings too.
about removing unwanted SR, i was thinking along the lines of using the high priests as an inquisitor type unit which can eradicate all SR other than that priests SR.
I do nt understand your last point:
I would like to have building ladders for some constructive/technological/magical/militaristic subreligions.
Although it is not truly neccesary, I'd like to keep the option open.

@ Masada: i think you might have miss understood how Olleus has decided to do to incorporate this. we are no longer having any state sub religions, so that removes the need for changing Sub Religions as they are going to 'co-exist' within a CR.

I disagree that we need a state sub religion. all sub religions under the CR will be avaliable to the civs with that CR as their State religion.

Here is the beginings of the young gods details:

The "Young Gods " Religion:
In General:
Young Gods has a normal Spread rate
with normal costs and priests
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be an average cost, and will have normal effects.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Young Gods sub religion.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Young Gods sub religion. Can heal units.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Young Gods sub religion. Can heal units. Can inquisition.


Sub Religions:
-The Northern Gods

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar to the Northern Gods
Temple= Temple of the Northern Pantheon
Cathedral= Sacred Hall of the Northern Pantheon
Monument=???
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- ???
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- ???
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- ??? (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-The Southern Gods

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar to the Southern Gods
Temple= Temple of the Southern Pantheon
Cathedral= Sacred Hall of the Southern Pantheon
Monument=???
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- ???
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- ???
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- ??? (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)
-The Old World Pantheon

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar to the Old World Gods
Temple= Temple Street
Cathedral= Old World Cathedral
Monument=???
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- ???
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- ???
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- ??? (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-The Norse Pantheon

---Buildings:
Altar= ???
Temple= ???
Cathedral= ???
Monument=???
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- ???
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- ???
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- ??? (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

@Psychic_Llamas i agree that sub religions under a core faith should be able to get along better than those not under the same core faith... however there still should be penalties for having multiple core and sub faiths in a state. I dont think that you should be only able to use a single sub religions buildings, however there should be penalties for doing that make it a bit of a gamble to do. It can have a good payoff, but it can have downsides...

Also shrines for faiths should not be able to be destroyed by simply having the player remove the building.. inquistors could have to first destroy the buildings of that faith before they could remove the religion. Inquistors should not be able to remove a religion unless there was allready the state etc faith in the city bit silly to remove a faith and not replace/substitute it at the same time.. having a city of people with no religion would be a bit bizzare...

@Psychic_Llamas having a state sub religion i agree isnt that useful but there should be penalties to convince the player of not having to many faiths in a city... empire wise i guess as long as the city doesnt have 2 faiths there wouldnt be any penalties but there probably needs to be penalties...

Persecution penalty for every -1 unhappiness in the empire caused by religous problems get that value divide it by the amount of cities and give an additional -1 unhappiness to every city in the empire for every whole number rounded down? something like that it represents the problems caused by multiple religions in an empire...

Young Gods suggestions...

Norse Pantheon
The Norse in the real world did not have a set form of worship of an organized central church as such... they worshipped at sacred groves and standing stones and a few sites... it is/was similar to the celtic faith with druids but there priests standing was more informal and less heriditary

Altar=Horgr (a simple altar of standing stones)
Temple= Sacred Grove (a grove of sacred trees)
Cathedral= been suggested by a danish mate of mine that a Longhouse would be the closest to a Cathedral...
Monunument= Valhalla which is the home of odin but heroes have a place there but it is linked to sites in the real world

Will continue in a bit...

Northen Gods (im not quite sure but could this be based on the germanic pagan tradition?)

Southern Gods (while this could be based on the celtic pagan tradition)

Since the infomation for this is non existant it might be wise to hold to the real world infomation that exists and incoperate the small amount of warhammer canon into the piece?

Old World Pantheon

Altar= Altar of the gods? (shorter better :P)
Temple= Temples of the gods/Temple complex/Street of temples etc
Cathedral=Greater temples of the gods/Greater Temple Complex/Temple District (would be what im leaning towards..)
Monument=Realm of the gods/Home of the gods/Seat of the gods etc

Acolyte=Acolyte of the gods/Servant of the gods etc
Priest=Intiate of the gods/Priest of the gods/defender of the gods etc
High Priest=High Priest of the gods/Servant of the many/Servant of the myriad etc

Oh and could we change Inquistion rule to something nicer like forced conversition... sad to say Church sanctioned Inquistions never really killed alot of people in history blame the civil authorities for that... and Inquistions refer to a single faiths way of doing it...

Oh and lots of faiths have done that sort of stuff its sorta routine in history.. lets not take our present centaury as the rule but the exception :D

I meant not to exclude building-ladders with SR prereq entirely, include as an exception.
For example the chaos factions would be excellent candidates for fierce rivalry between factions and increased efficiacy if a city specialises in one type.

example
A city has the chaos CR. 30%Khorne, 1%Tzeenth, 5%Nurgle, 10% Slaanesh (Tzeenth and the major SR Khorne are antagonistic so 1%extra is unhappy or even rebelious) as a polutant 2% is Sigmarite. the rest are atheist or multheist.

The player can build Chaos totem -> Bloodaltar -> Khorne Temple at 100% cost.
Also a player could build the other SR buildings, but at 200% cost because they are not the major cult.
Once a spe3cific building is built, antagonistic SR buildings can no longer be constructed.
The city cannot build a sigmarite shrine, because that belongs to another pantheon (CR) altogether.

When monotheism is the civic of choice or the flavour of the CR, a city can only have one deity. (or even one deity for the entire civ.)


edit: ah that was not the quote....
If you are going to exlude SR-specific buildings, ladders for them would be defunct too.
You lose alot of flavour and gameplay validity without SR-specifics, I think.

A subsititution might be SR wonders, that can only be built in a city containing the SR, and only when CR building of level II is present.
examples:
-Clan Moulder Moulding Pits: enables creation of Rattus Giganticus units.
-Clan Skryre Lightmagic Accumulator: Lightmagic cataclysm rends through the roots of the world and rips it apart. Razes 50% of all cities on continent (including own), creates tunnelroutes between all cities. (Can only be built once, like all wonders)

edit2:
What I meant with a ladder is more for arcane-tech flavoured SR, additions to libraries and universities etc. Or replacements thereof. Some civs may not have access to universities and such in their human form and may need science-SR to get them their equivalents.

@Arexack_heretic ah the complexity... i mean that would be insanely complex.. i just prefered a -1 unhappiness for each different sub religion from the same major faith and say -2 unhappiness to -4 unhappiness maybe for sub religions that are not from the same major faith..

Oh and the god of atheism in Warhammer is a chaos god one of the 4 that the other chaos gods got rid of... that really old school canon... so atheism is looked down upon by Sigmarite Templars and other religous figures...

And i agree with Psychic_Llamas there are problems with a state sub religion..

and ummm ere inquistions should be changed to forced conversions to more PC :P (Helen Clark standards *cough cough* :P)

@masada: i like your idea in your last post having -1 happyness for each different sub religion in the city from the same CR, but make it -1 happyness for every building. (eg if a city has an Altar, Temple and Cathedral from the Khaine SR, and then builds and altar and temple of the Ind SR in the same city, that city gets -2 happyness, one for each pair of competeing SR.) maybe this would deter people from building multiple SR in a single city. i also like the idea of having -3 happyness for the presence of a non state CR's SR in a city too.
this could work. ill be interested to see what Olleus has to say. maybe he has a better idea. (hint hint :p )

@ masada: i agree that a player should first remove all of a SR buildings before a CR can be removed.
also the way i was thinking of inquisitors working is not to have a special unit called an 'inquisitor' but just to give all high priests the 'inquisition' or 'purge heathens' ability.

@ AH: i think that that plan of action is a little over complex for what we want it to do. perhaps we should wait for olleus to see if it is simple or not.
i do however like your idea of the monotheism Civic only allowing one type of SR. could be very interesting.

Im confused. i never said i wnated to exclude SR specific buildings, thats whay all the altars, temples, cathedrals and monuments have different abilities, especially the monuments (basically minor religious wonders)
please note also that there are no CR buildings at all. in the list where i say "general buildings" under the CR heading, i mean that that is a benefit that all of the altars, temples etc in the SR of that CR get. they are not sepparate buildings (sorry, i had to say that:) )

Here are a few of the ideas ive come up with for the Young Gods. ive also used the ideas that masada posted earlyer with some tweeking. Thanks for the ideas Masada:)

The "Young Gods " Religion:
In General:
Young Gods has a normal Spread rate
with normal costs and priests
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be an average cost, and will have normal effects.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Young Gods sub religion.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Young Gods sub religion. Can heal units.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Young Gods sub religion. Can heal units. Can inquisition.


Sub Religions:
-The Northern Gods
All altars, Temples and Cathedrals of the Northern Gods make Alters temples and Cathedrals of the Southern Gods unavailable in the city that they are built (meaning that one city cannot have both the Northern gods and the southern gods in it at the same time.) Altars, Temples and Cathedrals of the Northern Gods each make all units 5% cheaper to produce (military and religious).
The city with the monument becomes immune to Barbarian attacks (meaning that barbarians cannot attack the city with the northern monument)
All religious units have 1 more strength than normal religious units.

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar to the Northern Gods
Temple= Temple of the Northern Pantheon
Cathedral= Sacred Hall of the Northern Pantheon
Monument= Hall of Heavenly Protection
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Northern Fanatic
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Warrior Priest of the North
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Warrior High-Priest of the North (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-The Southern Gods
All altars, Temples and Cathedrals of the Southern Gods make Alters temples and Cathedrals of the Northern Gods unavailable in the city that they are built (meaning that one city cannot have both the Northern gods and the Southern gods in it at the same time.) Alters, Temples and Cathedrals of the Southern Gods each produce +1 Happiness.
All religious units of the southern gods are also able to build ‘libraries’ in cities with the Southern Gods CR at the cost of their life.
The Hall of Heavenly Bounty makes all plots of land in it’s cities radius with 2 food instead produce 3.

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar to the Southern Gods
Temple= Temple of the Southern Pantheon
Cathedral= Sacred Hall of the Southern Pantheon
Monument= Hall of Heavenly Bounty
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Southern Altar Servers
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Scholar Priest of the South
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Scholar High-Priest of the North (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-The Old World Pantheon
All Old World Pantheon buildings produce +1 happiness if another Young Gods SR is present in the city. (cancelling out the -1 happiness from competing SR’s) all Temple Streets produce +1 gold, and Temple Districts produce +2 gold (symbolising the charitable donations by the population to the temples)
Priests are also able to inquisition.
Al Acolytes, Priests and High priests built in the city with the Seat of the Gods have one extra priest spell.

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar to the Gods
Temple= Temple Street
Cathedral= Temple District
Monument= Seat of the Gods
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Acolyte of the Gods
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Priest of the Gods
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- High Priest of the Gods (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-The Norse Pantheon
A city with a Norse Pantheon’s ‘Horgr’ is able to sacrifice an ‘animal’ to produce +1 Happyness for 5 turns. The Sacred Copse allows cities to build ‘Sacrificial Animals’ to be sacrificed at the Horgr. The Long House allows cities to build 2 kinds of High priest, a Seiokona who also acts also as a normal mage, and the Hersir, who is a strong warrior chieftain with very high moral bonuses to his stack but unable to inquisition. The Shamaness and Volva act also as weak mages.
The Valhalla makes all religious units built in the city start with one extra priest spell.

---Buildings:
Altar= Hörgr
Temple= Sacred Copse
Cathedral= Long House
Monument= Valhalla
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Shamaness
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Völva
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Seiðkona and Hersir (World Unit, can only have 3 of each at a time)

@ Psychic_Llamas yeah for the buildings would be all right i guess... hating a minority is one thing hating a minority with places of worship is alot easier.. reallt the numbers are going to need to be tweaked for them but the basic idea should be the same.. (balance..) Lord Ollues (hint hint) :P hope he gets it :P

@Psychic_Llamas would that forced conversion be a one use waste the unit ability? i think that it should be a use as many times as you want ability... with side effects unhappiness would be good? and maybe a destruction/barbarism (rebellion) of each and every unit of that state religion... that might be a bit extreme.. but something like that

@Psychic_Llamas

Gods of the North=perfection incarnate barbarians were the bane of all the northen civs of the old world :D chaos be dammed!!! well they are allready litteraly... maybe the monument should give some promotions... barbs are normally only a small problem...

The gods of the south=!!!! perfect they would have alot more people than civs that are constantly fighting against barbs *typo* Scholar High-Priest of the North (South maybe?)...

The Old world gods=:D could do the same with Chaos undivided gets happiness from having more cult buildings but maybe it should have a base unhappiness built into it... to offset the extra happiness it gets...

Norse gods=:D can they sacrifice population as well? that would be a logical step needed to go from worshipping Norse gods to worshipping Chaos..

hmm...yes I went a bit overboard on complexity there. ;)
Ah sorry PL, I misunderstood, in that case I am happy with your proposals for the CR:SR system.

A God of Atheism...bit naive of him to think he'd be friends with the others....
like a politician saying "I'm going to abolish democracy and tax everybody more, by the way I lied about my diploma." a bit self-defeating. :D
I think the God of Atheism was abolished before Sigmar...somewhere in prehistory.

About the Inquisitor...
how about a single use ability similar to that of missionaries (kill a faction in one city or maybe even all rival factions)
and a continuous negative effect on the spread/growth of rival factions/religions if based in a city.

For the acolyte/etc not 'convert a city' but rather 'found a coven' or 'spread the word'. It would be unlikely for an entire city to convert instantaneously on the whim of a single religious figure...more likely he/she'd get lynched....
"hera ye, hear ye!
Good people of Altdorf!
Your Gods are false!
Convert to my religiion now or be damned for eternity and....aargh! Stop pelting me with that brown stuff! *uck*"

@ masada: yeh, your right that the numbers need tweeking, but i think the basic idea's good. :)

i was thinking that once the forced conversion is used, the unit is 'sacrificed' to symbolyse him staying in that city to convert it. perhaps once they are 'sacrificed it can cause a gradual dismantling of all the SR buildings not of that High Priest's religion. say 1 turn for an altar to be destroyed, 2 turns for a temple to be estroyed and 3 turns for a cathedral to be destroyed. perhaps make Monuments unaffected by the forced conversion?
i think it should cause 1 cumulative unhappiness for every turn it takes to remove a SR, but once it is complete, order is restored?

@ masada: im glad you like those ideas :D
i was thinking that the young gods SRs shouldnt be as strong as the Old Faiths SRs because they are cheaper. so i think maybe an added promotion is a bit much for the Northern gods monumnet. (but thats just a maybe, you might be able to purswade me otherwise...)

:lol: yes, that should be Scholar High-Priest of the South . ;)

can you explain what you mean by
could do the same with Chaos undivided gets happiness from having more cult buildings but maybe it should have a base unhappiness built into it... to offset the extra happiness it gets...

well, i researched the Horgr and found they only sacrificed animals on them, but i suppose, as a step toward chaos, you could sacrifice people, but i think that should stay unique to Dark elves, Lizard men and Chaos.

@AH: not a problem:) it was an easy mistake, i should have writen it clearer :)

good idea about the 'found a coven' or 'spread the word' thing for acolytes.
(love the quote BTW :D:lol:)

Here's a quick list of some ideas for the Dark Children:


The "Dark Children" Religion:
In General:
Dark Children has a Normal Spread rate
with expensive costs of priests
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be an High cost, and will have Good effects.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Dark Children sub religion.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Dark Children sub religion. Can heal units.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Dark Children sub religion. Can heal units. Can inquisition.


Sub Religions:
-The Veneration of Nagash
The Bone Pillar increases the heal rate of Undead units in and adjacent to the city, but decreases the heal rate of living units in and adjacent to the city.
The Temple of Skulls allows all religious units produced in the city to have access to one more spell from The Winds of Death magic.
Units can be sacrificed in cities with a Great Crypt Hall in it to produce an Undead unit with no upkeep costs (different undead unit depends on sacrificed unit ie sacrificed melee unit = Undead Swordman unit, sacrificed ranged unit = Undead Bowman unit, sacrificed mage unit = Undead Necromancer, mounted sacrifice = Undead Horseman)
Acolytes start with one death spell, priests start with 1 death spell and High Priests start with 2 death spells.
All undead and religious units built in the city with Nagashizzar in it gain the ‘Vampiric’ promotion which allows them to restore their health when they attack.

---Buildings:
Altar= Bone Pillar
Temple= Temple of Skulls
Cathedral= Great Crypt Hall
Monument= Nagashizzar
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Cultist of Nagash
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Dedicate of Nagash
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Great Follower of Nagash (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- The Horned Rat

---Buildings:
Altar= Great Belfry
Temple= Bell Temple
Cathedral= Chapel of the 13 Bells
Monument= The Temple of the Horned Rat
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Prophet of the Horned Rat
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Seer of the Horned Rat
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Great Seer of the Horned Rat (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


-The Blood Cult

---Buildings:
Altar= Blood Shrine
Temple= Blood House
Cathedral= Hall of Blood Rights
Monument= The Blood Soaked Throne
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Vampire Initiate
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Vampire Priestess
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Vampire Queen (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Gods of the Dark Forge

---Buildings:
Altar= Chaos Anvil
Temple= Black Vaults
Cathedral= Catacombs of the Dark Ones
Monument= The Dark Forge
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Acolyte of the Dark Forge
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Priest of the Dark Forge
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- High-Priest of the Dark Forge (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


and another list for the Chaos Cults:


The "Chaos Cults" Religion:
In General:
Chaos Cults has a Fast Spread rate
with Expensive priests
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be an very High cost, and will have very Good effects.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Chaos Cults sub religion. Can capture defeated enemies as slaves.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Chaos Cults sub religion. Can heal units.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Chaos Cults sub religion. Can heal units. Can inquisition.


Sub Religions:
- Nurgle
Cities with a Nurgle Altar can sacrifice slaves to give one random non deamon unit in the city the “Gift of Nurgle” Promotion (which allows that unit a 20% chance to create a Nurgling from it’s defeated enemies.
The Temple of Nugle allows its city to build Nurglings.
The Hall of Infection allows its city to build Plague Bearers with the ‘Gift of Nurgle’ promotion.
Nurgle Cultists can cast 1 spell from the Nurgle Spells list, Disciples of Nurgle can cast 1 spell from the Nurgle Spells list, Lord-Priests of Nurgle can cast 2 spells from the Nurgle Spells list.
The infernal Pit of Contagion automatically produces a great Unclean One every 80 turns (The Great Unclean One is a world unit)

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Plague
Temple= Temple of Nurgle
Cathedral= Hall of Infection
Monument= Infernal Pit of Contagion
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Nurgle Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Disciple of Nurgle
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Lord-Priest of Nurgle (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Tzeentch
Cities with a Tzeentch Altar can sacrifice slaves to give one random non deamon unit in the city the “Gift of Tzeentch” Promotion (which allows that unitto cast one spell from the Tzeentch magic list).
The Temple of Tzeentch allows its city to build Screamers of Tzeentch.
The Hall of Alteration allows its city to build Horrors of Tzeentch
Tzeentch Cultists can cast 2 spells from the Tzeentch Spells list, Disciples of Tzeentch can cast 3 spell from the Tzeentch Spells list, Lord-Priests of Tzeentch can cast 4 spells from the Tzeentch Spells list.
The Spire of Shifting Chaos automatically produces a Lord of Change every 80 turns (The Lord of Change is a world unit)

Altar= Altar of Change
Temple= Temple of Tzeentch
Cathedral= Hall of Alteration
Monument= Spire of Shifting Chaos
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Tzeentch Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Disciple of Tzeentch
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Lord-Priest of Tzeentch (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Khorne
Cities with a Khorne Altar can sacrifice slaves to give one random non deamon unit in the city the “Gift of Khorne” Promotion (which makes that unit Lust for Blood, and as such gains a movement bonus and strength bonus of 1 for the rest of the game).
The Temple of Khorne allows its city to build Flesh Hounds of Khorne.
The Hall of Blood allows its city to build Bloodletters.
Khorne rAcolytes, Priests and high priests cannot cast any Priest spells or any other spell, and cannot be affected by the Gift of Tzeentch promotion. They do however gain +1, +2, and +3 strength respectively.
The Blood Palace of Skulls automatically produces a Bloodthirster every 80 turns (The Bloodthirster is a world unit)

Altar= Altar of War
Temple= Temple of Khorne
Cathedral= Hall of Blood
Monument= Blood Palace of Skulls
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Khorne Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Disciple of Khorne
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Lord-Priest of Khorne (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Slaanesh
Cities with a Slaanesh Altar can sacrifice slaves to remove unhappiness from that city for 3 turns.
The Temple of Slaanesh allows its city to build Daemonettes of Slaanesh.
The Hall of Pleasure allows its city to build Daemonettes on Steeds of Slaanesh.
(both Slaaneshee Deamons have the ‘gift of Slaanesh’ promotion, which gives them a 20% chance of seducing a defeated enemy and produce a slave.)
Slaanesh Acolytes, Priests and high priests can cast 1, 1, and 2 spells from the Magic of Slaanesh respectively.
The Harem of Eternal lust automatically produces a Keeper of Secrets every 80 turns (The Keeper of Secrets is a world unit)

Altar= Altar of Desires
Temple= Temple of Slaanesh
Cathedral= Hall of Pleasure
Monument= Harem of Eternal lust
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Slaanesh Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Disciple of Slaanesh
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Lord-Priest of Slaanesh (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Chaos Undivided
All Chaos Undivided buildings produce +1 happiness if another Chaos Cults SR is present in the city. (cancelling out the -1 happiness from competing SR’s)
Cities with a Chaos Undivided Altar can sacrifice slaves to give one random non deamon unit in the city the “Gift of Chaos” Promotion (turning it into one random level 1 deamon of any of the 4 Chaos Gods).
The Chaos Temple allows its city to sacrifice deamons to gain 1 population
The 8 Halls of Chaos allows its city to sacrifice slaves to gain +15 instant Magic commerce.
All chaos undivided religious units act exactly as spys, except that instead of espionage, they can convert enemy cities without declaring war.
The Chaos Void automatically produces a Daemon Prince every 80 turns (The Daemon Prince is a world unit)

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Chaos
Temple= Chaos Temple
Cathedral= 8 Halls of Chaos
Monument= The Chaos Void
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Chaos Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Chaos Priest
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Chaos Mutant-Priest (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


One more list, The Gods of Law:


The " Gods of Law" Religion:
In General:
Gods of Law has a normal Spread rate
with Cheap priests
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be an normal cost, and will have normal effects.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Gods of Law sub religion.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Gods of Law sub religion. Can heal units.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Gods of Law sub religion. Can heal units. Can inquisition.


Sub Religions:
- Cult of Celestial Dragon
The Altar of Ancestral Spirits gives it’s city +1 Science (showing the increased passing of knowledge down through the ages from praying to the ancestors.) The Monastery prevents the spread of other SR in the city. The Jade Halls adds +1 happiness.
The Censor can use the forced conversion ability without sacrificing itself. The Warrior Monks and the legalists are both also able to use the Forced Conversion ability.
Emperor Quan’s Monument removes war weariness in the city and adds +50% culture to the city.

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Ancestral Spirits
Temple= Monastery of the Celestial Dragon
Cathedral= Jade Halls of Law
Monument= Emperor Quan’s Monument
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Legalist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Warrior monks of the Celestial Dragon
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Censor (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Jintoism
The Altar of Ancestral Spirits gives it’s city +1 Science (showing the increased passing of knowledge down through the ages from praying to the ancestors.) The Jinto Shrine Adds +1 Happiness from forests. The Jinto Monestary adds +1 health to the city and increases Unit heal rate in the city’s radius.
The Jinto Monks have a more advanced form of healing and heal greater damage than other monks. The Jinto Warrior Monk also has increased healing, and +1 strength.
The Great Pagoda Temple automatically spawns Jade Guardian Dogs every 10 turns, with 0 movement and strong defence. It also grants religious units produced in the city the ‘regeneration’ promotion.

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Ancestral Spirits
Temple= Jinto Shrine
Cathedral= Jinto Monestary
Monument= The Great Pagoda Temple
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Jinto Acolyte
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Jinto Monk
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Jinto Warrior-Monk (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)



- Ormazd Pantheon
Cities with the: Altar get +1 Happiness , Temple get +1 Happiness from Incense and priests of the Ormzad pantheon built in those cities get the ‘inquisitor’ ability, Cathedrals make their city immune to the spread of non state religion. All priests of the Ormzad Pantheon built in cities with the Cathedral are able to summon elementals and act like normal elementalists.
---Buildings:
Altar= Obelisk to the Gods
Temple= Temple of Al-Anon
Cathedral= Al-Anon Grand Temple Complex
Monument= Al-Anon’s Garden
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) --- Ormzad Initiate
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priest of Ormzad
High Priest (requires Cathedral) --- Great Sage of Ormzad (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)



- Sigmarism
The Hammer Altar adds +1 hammer to the city. The Temple of Sigmar prevents the spread of other SR in the city. The Cathedral grants new units produced in the city the ‘Zealot’ promotion (meaning they are immune to other religious effects on units, such as the ‘gift of Nurgle’ promotion)
All Sigmarite religious units start with the Zealot promotion, and the Warrior Priest, and Theogonists gain +1 strength. The theogonist has one extra priest spell.

---Buildings:
Altar= Hammer Altar
Temple= Temple of Sigmar
Cathedral= Cathedral of the Twin Tailed Comet
Monument= The Hammer of Sigmar
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Sigmarite Zealot
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Warrior-Priest of Sigmar
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Grand Theogonist of Sigmar (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)




Perhaps once all the basic details for all the SRs are done, ill go back and balance them some more, because ive noticed that some of these are very unbalanced

i was thinking that once the forced conversion is used, the unit is 'sacrificed' to symbolyse him staying in that city to convert it. perhaps once they are 'sacrificed it can cause a gradual dismantling of all the SR buildings not of that High Priest's religion. say 1 turn for an altar to be destroyed, 2 turns for a temple to be estroyed and 3 turns for a cathedral to be destroyed. perhaps make Monuments unaffected by the forced conversion?
i think it should cause 1 cumulative unhappiness for every turn it takes to remove a SR, but once it is complete, order is restored?

I like the conversion duration, it's alike to the capture-unrest.
However this could be very confusing if the unit did not stay in the city as a greatperson icon. Or some new 'iconoclast' icon alike to the uprising fist icon. ( :goodjob: :'turns to go')

thats a good point, we would need a new mini-icon to symbolyse the city being purged. any ideas? anyone willing to make it?

And no there art e 4 gods of chaos that are not part of the present make up of the chaos... they are still chaos but they were driven away they have exited canon for a bit but have made some odd appearances of late in some of the books/publications of warhammer

think about it this way a goverment does not want its religous figures lynced that would prompt some unpleasantness... need i say more and that isnt quite right figures in history have converted large groups/areas. But i tend to agree with you it is not the normal case for that sort of thing to happen but who is to say it is only a single acolyte that would be silly it costs the around the same to produce a unit of spearmen say... so wouldnt it be logical to assume it is a full mission of acolytes and that a high priest is him plus the lackeys/followers etc that tend to stick...

About the inquiesitor i dont see why he should vanish... it destroys the point of expending so many shields to make and then waste a high priest... even as we look at it now destroying a fully built up city and the undesirable religion would take 4 turns... which means 4 high priests... which means a lot of turns building stuff...

And yeah it should create unhappiness for a couple of turns naturally this should be worse than just letting the religion slide...

Perhaps the Horgr should just -1 food a turn to maintan sacrificing all those "animals" would be hard on the resources would also be really funny if your city died out because the people were feeding there Horgr instead of themsevles... (would also be easier to institute)

Oh and in Scandinavia there are huge mass graves where people were sacrificed etc

Oh and the Norse and terrible raiders who take lots of slaves... they arnt as bad to them as say the Dark Elves but they do trade them to Chaos...

Oh and Lizardmen are fairly selective with what they sacrifice to there gods.. skaven and dark elves mostly the rest is all after thought and generally as long as you dont "bother" them they leave you alone... exactly what bothering entails is hard to say...

The raised fist wins my vote for the icon of doom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(will review the rest tommorow to tired and busy atm.. and typing on my new laptop is hard on the wrists...

I vote for a hand holding a flaming torch.

edit:
something like this:
(maybe withoiut the hand.)

Edit: Hey P_L...
Do you intend then, that any civ (with Ancient Faiths CR) could research, say, The Old Ones and build a national wonder for the SR?
Or do I still need to include racial-techs to determine access to and availability to these religions.
For human civs this may be a good thing actually.... but not for Orcs/Skaven etc.

It doesnt really matter anymore who founded a religion right?
So I'll probably group most around the ancient era.
I'd rather not have humans worshipping Elven gods and Elves worhipping Human ones, so if at all workable I'll introduce hurdles for some, shortcuts for others to developing certain religions.

"One of Teclis' deeds was to find such low sorcerers and hedge wizards as existed in the empire" The empire had mages before the elves improved upon there skills

"Magnus asked Teclis to help him create an institution whereby wizards might be properly trained... But Teclis rlealised that the safety of the whole world... rested upon the men of the empire"

Will continue later (Empire army book)

True. However from Warhammer roleplay I got that ...

Humans bagan with hedge wizardry and eventually tried to develop a human unified theory of magic (HUToM) which is today referred to as elementalism.
Tecla brought humanity a more perfected system with battlemagic for those lesser mages and the prismatic arts for those mages of exceptional quality.
Although Elementalism is not in vogue, it is still practised by those of inquisitive mind as elementalism dabbles also in those properties of magic of no immediate effect.
Although elementalism is less coherent than prismatic magic, those mages adhering to it usually have more basic understanding of the nature of magic and it's inner workings than those of the alien prismatic arts. This is partly due to the high number of low quality wizard enrolled as battlemages, but mostly due to the experimental nature of this grand human enterprise, which encourages original thought where prismatic magic more comonly restricts the magical worker in his freedoms.

(Read as slightly biased scientific paper) ;)

Hi sorry 'bout the tripple post. ;)

I feel rather strange about grouping the Chaos Dwarf Gods and the Horned One together with Nagash....

Shouldnt the first two be grouped within Chaos sects?
And Nagash seems to me a Mortal God (an ascended Mortal, rather than a GodEmperor).

Just minor griping. Because taking these tree out would leave the CR empty.
So a need to redefine -Dark Children-
maybe
Grouping of Powerfull beings. Akin to the young gods, but shunned or banished by their brethren and their followers.
Because they brought about their own downfall by plotting or because of the jealousy of those that cast them down in their ignorance. It does not matter, they failed, the Dark Children survived the onslaught and are seeking revenge. No longer distracted by pantheon responsibilities, they can plot and gather power, to bring about the destruction of those that cast them down.
Or at least those their followers.

Defining characteristic is that these gods are no longer who they once were, they have been in some ways diminished and have become petty and dark in nature. (or more so than before)
Nagash was betrayed by the skaven and is now diminished in power, but is now more a minor deity than the powerfull liche he was before.
Sometimes a whole section of the pantheon is exciled.

The God of Atheism is no longer in this world, but still sends dark whispers of doubt to the ears of believers from his realm in the warp.

The horned one is a mystery. He could be an ascendant mortal, bent on the despoiling of the world. He could also be a minor Chaotic deity who created his own followers. (Not a rare occurence in mythology) Whatever the truth, he is bent on destruction and chaos.
He has chosen the rats to be his followers, probably because he identifies with them. Disdained and loathed by humans and elves, he is likewise loathed by other gods and with disdain by the chaos gods.

How the Blooded fit in I'm not sure.
Their immortal progenitor (Dracul?) probably ascended when his un-mortal body was detroyed. ?



I love the CR-SR system btw. :)

edit:
'nother minor thing...Ormzad Pantheon: Its both 'OldFaith' and 'Law'.
I think it was the favorite religion of Arabya? Was 'the One' exciled from this pantheon?
Can't quite figure the difference between all the youngOnes Northern/Norse Southern/Ormzad Oldworld is Empire/Bretonia/Tillea/Estallia/Kislev no?
I'm a bit confused where to put the religions and who to give shortcuts.
Don't forget the lady of the Lake for Bretonia and the king...Will they be in the mortal Gods section?

@ masada: well first off i have no idea what you were going on about over the 4 chaos gods :crazyeye: sorry, but it made no sense;)

i think you missundestood my meaning about the inquisitors. let me try rephrase it:
I was thinking that the High Priests of each SR have the "Inquisition / Forced conversion / Purge" promotion. this promotion enables that unit to initiate a chain reaction in a city with any SR other than his own. when the inquisition ability is used, the High Priest is 'sacrificed' to represent him converting, or killing, the heathens in that city. now, only ONE High Priest is required to purge a city of it's heathens, that means you do not need to build one high priest for every building. Once the High Priests are 'sacrificed' it would cause a gradual dismantling of all the SR buildings not of that High Priest's religion. say 1 turn for an altar to be destroyed, 2 turns for a temple to be estroyed and 3 turns for a cathedral to be destroyed, and 1 turn for a non state CR to be removed.
And for each turn taken to purge that city, 1 point of cumulative unhappyness is produced, but once the purging is complete, and everyone in the city follows the same faith, order is restored.

For Example: lets say that i have a city with the 2 CRs "Chaos Gods", and "The Old Faiths" and in that same city i have an altar for the SRs "The Old Faith", "Asuryanism" and "The Cult of Khain", and i also have a temple and cathedral for "Asuryanism", and a temple for "The Cult of Khain".
Now, lets say that i want to remove the Chaos Gods CR and the Cult of Khain and the Old Faith SRs from that city because there is too much unhappyness, and the city is not running efficiently. so, i build myself a 'Mage-Priest of Asuryan' (the High Priest for Asuryanism) and order him to purge that city.
because i have 2 altars and 1 temple not for the Asuyan Religion, and one non state religion, it will take 5 turns to complete the inquisition. this means, that after 5 turns, and after the city has 5 unhappy people, all the unwanted SRs and CRs will be removed and the city will once again run smoothly.
did that make more sense?

@ masada: i dont think that -1 food would be a good idea, like you said, it would be wierd if the city didnt feed itself, only its Horgr. its not too hard to make a new unit (sacrificial animals) or maybe we can make the Norse priests able to capture wild animals to sacrifice...
i see your point about the human sacrifices now. done.

@AH: Flaming torch sounds good, maybe with not such a trangular stick (looks kinda carrot like :D )

yes, I was thinking that each civ can build each monument once (like a national wonder) to start that SR in thier cities.

i think maybe adding certain techs that are already avaliable to some civs (i dunno... eg some tech like Elven Mythology, or something, which all the elven races start with, and is required for the techs which found the elven SRs ?) and not others, making some religions easyer to gain than others.
the order that religions should go is this (IMO):
1 The Old Faiths (early 1st era)
2 Chaos Cults (early 1st era)
3 Dark Children ( mid 1st era)
4 Gods of Law ( late 1st era)
5 Mortal Gods (early 2nd era)
6 Barbaric Gods (early 2nd era)
7 Young Gods (mid 2nd era)

@ AH: dont worry about tripple posting :D, its better than not posting right ;)

we could rename 'Dark Children' to 'The Outcast Faiths'

Also, the Blood Cult is a sect of Nagash following, not someone called 'Dracul' it is basically a vampiric aristocracy, similar to the vampire civ in FfH. where the Veneration of Nagash and The Blood Cult are smilar, they reflect differnet aspects of following Nagash: Vampirism, and necromancy.

it would be quite interesting if we added the 'God of Atheism' (even though i think thats a contradiction, and a false bit of fluff, it sounds interesting) in under the Outcast faiths or whatever, it could be very interesting... no spread of not state faith religion, or spread of non atheist SR...

PS, im glad you like it :D

@AH: about Ormzad, from what i can gather, it was initially the pantheon of Khemri, then the lesser gods pissed off Al-Anon of left to find more followers (araby) so he wasnt exactly exiled, he just left.

Well, the northern gods is the worship of those gods primarily in the northern areas of the empire (Kislev, Empire, Norsca), those that protect against hardship and whatnot, the Norse is really only for the Norsca civ and perhaps Kislev. Southern Gods is generally the gods of plenty, and worshiped in the Sough of the Old World (Bretonnia Tillia, Estalia, Boarder Princes), Ormzad is worshiped mostly in Araby, and formerly Khemri and Lhamia. Yes, Oldworld is Empire/ Bretonia/ Tillea/ Estallia/ Kislev.
Lady of the Lake, and Sigmar and a few others will be in the Mortal Gods. section
(did that answer your question?)



@ all:
By the way guys, Thanks so much for all of this Brainstorming :D its great. some of the ideas you guys come up with are brilliant.

it would be nice if we got more peoples oppinions though, because mine and yours might not be the same as everyone else. (HINT HINT EVERYONE;))

@Arexack_heretic warhammer fantasy roleplaying isnt canon.. nor is it considered offiicial canon nor do i think it has ever been considered official canon... and im to lazy atm to dig up all the evidence in recent publications to refute that however this sums it up nicely all magic is directly the result of chaos, the winds of magic are chaos incarnate....

Using the rules Psychic_Llamas and I came up with that infomation could be drawn into the mod even though it isnt canon because of a lack of infomation as long as all infomation that runs contary to the accepted lore is removed... it helps bulk out elementalism great therefore it can be used... but maybe not quite in that format

@Arexack_heretic Nagash is the creater of the undead the propegator

link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagash_%28Warhammer%29

it was because of someone reading a spell wrong in his spell book that Vampires came about.. Vampires and the undead are therefore the children of Nagash. There is no great cult of Nagash instead it just represents the general beliefs/motivations of the various sentiment undead of the warhammer world... of which there are 4 kingdoms that spring to mind that are ruled by the undead, Sylvania, The Vampire Coast (in Lustria), Khemri and there is a vampire Kingdom in the southlands...

Put all the real atheists with a genuine understanding of why they dont believe in gods or goddesses (not god as some mistakenly say) and you would have a small amount and 99% of those would be in the Western world...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malal (is one of exiled chaos gods)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necoho (God of Athemism.. which is odd since he is a god...)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuvassin (God of making sure nothing goes to plan...)

but there is another god floating around... and i would ignore them for the mod because they are very minor gods but they are gods... considering in the old world there is a god of the hearth, home, cats, dogs etc...

The horned one is the god of Skaven he is a chaotic deity but to what extent he is beyond me... he is not like any of the 4 major gods of chaos but i can assure you he isnt mortal or ever has been...

Chaos Dwarf Gods are just really perverted forms of the dwarve gods or at least thats what they started out as... then they got deeper

The Dark Children are the misbegotten spawn of various things they have that in common... they are accidents and screwups... and really they sorta fit well into it.. they all fall into the same timeline :D

@Arexack_heretic the Ormazad pantheon is a different pantheon from any other it is not part of the old world gods... they dont share gods and they do deserve a spot they are the gods of Khermi and Araby but they are also the gods of most of the humans of the Southlands..

@Psychic_Llamas great forced conversion idea... no arguements here

I dont know sacrificing lots of animals would be a drain on the food supply... and i think that concept could be streched to chaos temples etc as well... they sorta sacrifice lots of things.. and maybe you could have a negative growth modifer... the tribes of chaos sacrifce the young, old or with physical and mental problems to the gods of chaos... that would hurt the potential growth of a city/camp...

@Psychic_Llamas yeah you could do that... its been done in other mods with fairly good effect

@Psychic_Llamas names schames... dont even bother with the god of atheism he is a minor diety and yes he is official canon... and yes he is a contradiction but then hes the god of those as wel...

And yeah Nagash is the father of Necromancy and Vampirism...

We could make the Ormazad Pantheon just one faith... atm any simplifaction the better... sadly alot of faiths cant be simplified... *shudders* at the thought of doing Chaos..

@Everyone... post things... COME ON PLZ!!!

I get to take a bow cause Psychic_Llamas praised me... dont u want that? *takes a bow*

Note http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashut is the chaos god of the Chaos Dwarves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horned_Rat is the chaos god of the Skaven...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%27lakor is what happens to mortals when they try and play the Chaos gods...
An'sl, Mo'rcck,and Phraz-Etar are also Chaos gods... other than that nothing is known about them...
And from Warhammer Fantasy Role Playing...Khakkekk (goblin god of blood), Atagro (god of beasts), Meneloth (elven god of pleasure), Obscuras (god of shadows and hidden things) and Mermedus (god of the sea)

There are way to many gods in Warhammer to represent...

Yes, thanks P_L that answers quite a few of them. :)
Now get back to finishing the other SR's! ;)

@Masada:
MAgic is not Chaos incarnate. The energies of the Warp are chaotic, yes, but not inherently evil. Magic is the imposing of order to the unstructured power of the winds. Raw magic opposes this structuring, but the difracted colours of magic are more pliable.
However using magic does attract the attention of denizens of the immaterium and their attentions are rarely considdered benign.

Anyhow the nature of magic is debated with much passion in the WH-world itself. Some call it inherently dangerous or evil, while others claim it is neutral.

I'd say, that magic takes on the allignment of the user or his patron-deity.
(Or maybe the intention flavours the allignment, who knows?)

Check the Warlords thread for the latest TechChart.

I've been hashing things about and I'd like some feedback on it.

:lol: dont get me started on that magic debate again, please! for my own sake :p ;)

@ masada: well, i still dont particularly like the idea of sacrificing food for the Horgr. but i suppose the only way to really decide is to try it to see if it works, or if its fun. (and because it's simple to do, if wqe want to change it, its not too hard) so ill agree for now :) -1 food it is.

@masada: thats very useful stuff on Hashep. :) ta

@ AH: yes sir, right away sir :p. (right after i have your oppinion on the ones i posted earlyer ;) )

Ah good! I love to see such dilligence! :)

I like the things you posted so far.

I've included the CR in the Religions.xml and given most CR+SR both a place in the tech tree.

I'd like to see the rest of the SR's so I can incorporate them.

As soon as we got a final draft, of all the religions and some basic L1 spells, we can game play them in a beta 'e'.

I mentioned it earlier, but you got Omzad Pantheon as OldFaith and Law both.
I don´t know where to put it in either case.

I just looked at your tech tree. its very good, and i left my suggestions in the other thread. if you look at the 3rd or 4th post of this thread, you will see a list of the current ideas for CR and SR, its got the details of the ones were sure about.

About Ormzad, he hasnt changed in either CR, its the same. just pop him in at Elementalism. ;)

Im just waiting for everyone to give the word go to finish up on the Young Gods and make a proper start on the rest.

@everyone that hasnt written anything here yet: PLEASE PUT YOU OPPINION DOWN! id really like to get the publics pov, this has turned into an unnoficial private forum :( come on people, get typing :D

@AH All magic is derived from the chaos gates.. i never said it was evil i just said it is chaotic in nature.. chaos isnt evil as such it is chaos something created to do something isnt evil its the user... guns are a good example people use guns guns do not use people...

But all magic is derived from chaos... and yes all magic is evil or corrupt at least to start with, magic users have to purify it or die... (but i agree with Psychic_Llamas lets not dwell into that to much... magic is from chaos end point :D)

@AH tech charts are not my great interest... but i do like Lord_Ollues idea about having minor upgrades when a tech is discovered for units scaling there effectivness over time :D (but the tech tree needs to be simplified... its way to complex and time consuming...)

@I just think it would funny... anyway you could use that as a control on where Chaos, Norse etc cities are placed by the comp... -1 food in terrain that isnt that great... Norse snow etc would limit the feasible amounts of cities placed..

Otherwise yeah... people start posting plz... u have Psychich_Llamas pleading and thats just sad :P

Tech related idea... would it be possible to limit the amount of different magic techs... (the types of magic) for civs?

If so would it be possible when u discover tech X to get a choice to select what magic u want up to the number available for your civ? and from a selection of magic you are allowed? cause apart from a lack of functionability the magic tech tree is massive... to big....

I agree ... to a point.

I didn't think it possible to have a decision tree as well built into the tech tree....
That would quite simplify the choices a civ would have to take.
We'd be able to put in allignment choices.

Anyway aside from that, the magic tree i came up with is not that massive.
It just looks that way.

It has the primary High-magic trunk, which has roots in elven-magic and by a long detour the human magics.
Then there is a mystical/magic branch, which also includes the darker magics.
And a less mystical drawven enchanting branch.

Many of the entries are just increases in powerlevel of spells.
Many are needed to root the religions.

That reminds me: where does monotheism go?


edit: tree. It has been modified by a small amount already.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143991&d=1165688812

Well apart from not being able to look at it i dont see any problems... :p

By decision i mean when you reasearch the tech you pop an event.. or create a building that allows you to reasearch techs from a part of the tree... and limit those reasearcable techs to magic techs..?

Probably best for eveyone is you have me as an instant messanger contact...

Of course some magics will become outdated as higher complexity is attained.

For instance hedge magic will contain some simple spells that will be availabe to hedge wizards. Invention of Elementalism maybe will negate some of those spells or just the building of hedgewizards. Similarily once humanity has investigated Elementalism to its fullest potential, Highmagic can be researched.
It is really not that complex...just compare it to the current 'd' tree.
(the in-game views show only a small number of the links)

If you got Gmail, we'd be able to chat... I don't like to install thos other messenger services.

I don’t trust Google... something to do with there storing of cookies for 77 years? And I can’t bring my self to trust a company with a motto like "do no evil..." or a company that cooperates with a police state (China.. Even though it’s a great country with great people it is still a communist state...) and assist that state in locking up "political dissidents" who raise valid concerns about there country and the manner in which it is governed...

Don’t get me wrong.. I don’t support Formosa (Taiwan) which was ruled by an incompetent military dictatorship that didn’t have the good grace to accept defeat and spend much of its time trying to escalate its conflict with China into a full scale war.. Not that China wasn’t gunning for the same thing.. And I most certainly do not support a government that oppresses the native inhabitants of said island..

And im not a bigot.. Or any thing else I might be accused of...

I still use Google but then who doesn’t..? Which might be the problem...?

That’s my off topic rant for the moment...

@AH im pretty sure at least in canon terms that Elementalism is just an offshoot of the normal magic... Elementalism uses the winds of magic and im pretty sure you can only use them one way... but im going to leave that alone.. To lazy atm to go through all the stuff i have...

New Thought...

On the nature of Good and Evil

Good and evil are constructs of the human mind; they are decided by a mix of factors which are often having cultural or religious links. The concept of good and evil is different from person to person. People of a similar creed for example may view good and evil in a similar light with similar situation and choices evaluated in a similar way. However conflict with the concept and view of good and evil can vary to a huge degree. Polygamy for instance which is looked down upon in the Christian world and the West and may be seen as evil or wrong etc with the view differing from person to person... But in some places, cultures and religious polygamy is looked well upon. Very view people view there own actions as evil and may only do so when they pass beyond the pale. Even so these actions may be viewed as necessary, for the greater good etc.. And they may well be... but while that view may be acceptable to others it may be wholly unacceptable to others...

Good and evil are relative!

The same can be applied to the Warhammer world... Chaos for instance is unusual it is actually accepted as evil by those high up in the high racy.. But that doesn’t mean is it evil those are the views of some. Archoan lord of the end of times in White Dwarf accepts some of his more distasteful acts as evil he however goes on to explain that according to his logic they are necessary.. In the black library books he tends to be shown in a very black and white way which I don’t think holds quite as true. Those in the lower ranks of the hordes of Chaos view there actions as good.. Ordained by the gods and there actions as necessary..

However can Chaos really be evil? Is plague evil? Not really it does what its meant to do.. It survives by the deaths of others.. Humans really cant take the moral high ground here.. *Vegans look at Masada* *Masada looks at Vegans points at Canine teeth and wonders why we evolved or were created with those...* Change in excess may not be good... but then everything in excess may not be good. Blood is just blood it isn’t like he’s the Elven God of Murder *Masada looks at the elves of the world and wonders why people think they are all high and mighty takes a special people to create a god like that :P* And pleasure well is that bad?...

Chaos cant be evil.. How can something that was created like that be evil? Something that occasionally stings at the world when the warring factions decide to go to war together. Are bumble bees evil when they sting you?

If we asked a member of the golden horde what army he would play in Warhammer and what best fits with his view of the world... what’s the bet he would go Chaos... Chaos you ask, yeah chaos those guys aren’t weak like the rest of them they have class and style.. What I don’t understand is why they haven’t taken over the weaklings in the south i mean with a Khan sorry Warlord like that... i just dont understand it... the guys in GW must be Empire players (which is good for the Warhammer world :D) those guys are HAXXING!!! sif they would... :P

Good and evil are relative.. To all sorts of things keep and open mind.. :lol:

Now that might blow some brains up with angry recriminations about how the western sense of good and evil is always right.. don’t worry I have already been shouted down by a crowd of people (my peers) when I did a speech similar to this... closed minds and ignorance sometimes go hand in hand or is that just me but then I don’t blame them if everyone thought like this the world would be really interesting...

Oh and i cant for the life of me get into that tech tree

Masada, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

:( its annoying...

@ AH and Masada: masada cant access that tech diagram because hes not a member of the private forum, and AH posted it in there :p

@masada: are you a philosopher in your spare time? :confused: ;) theres some very... interesting... concepts in there.

i agree that good and evil are relative concepts, and there should be no representation of good or evil in the mod because WH is kind of a dark fantasy game (like FfH) where even the 'goodies' are are a tad evil.

we could argue about this for centuries and still not get anywhere though, so perhaps we could try complete these SR details so we can get onto balancing? :p

Ps, my MSN name is "Psychic_Llamas" (inventive hey?) but i dont use it very often.

i just had an intersting thought and wanted to post it here to see what you guys thought:

if every now and again, SR buildings can spawn barbarian acolytes etc of their SRs (which dont attack) but only move to different cities and spread their religions, or inqisition others. that would make the SR a little out of the players control and add an element of chance like with the CRs.
just a thought.

@Psychic_Llamas i am a philosopher in my spare time as welll as a theologist and i do amuse myself with a couple of other things :D

I do agree Chaos is evil well we perceive it to be evil, others may have viewed it differently. Warhammer is gothic fantasy, look at the new artwork for the empire complete with all the ravens skulls, fallen angels, flagellants’ and religious accoutrement...

PURE GENUIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That would make it even more random which is great religions in civ4 are a bit flat there is no real dynamic feel to them... what an idea :D

Religions are seldom tidy little affairs there are differernt factions, sub groups etc that often act against the authority of a central church and in many faiths there isnt really a strong unified centralised church anyway.. independant temples may do things differently that adds a bit of random chance into the equation

Chaos would be the perfect candidate for this hidden units that convert parts of your cities... and maybe institute a cult religion just for converting non chaos states. Like the cult of a dragon for instance.. except when you the Chaos player declares war on that state all units with the mark of chaos flip to your side and maybe make it a 10%-50% chance of a hidden mark of chaos being on your unit if there was a chaos cult in the city.. chaos is insidious in the way that it spreads (mind you warhammer isnt as bad as 40k any time chaos is involved in something, something like 50% of all Imperial units are corrupted...) in the recent storm of chaos quite a few units of the empire flipped and joined the enemy and a number of the chaos leaders were former citizens of the empire and other nations of the old world...

Oh and i dabble in politics alot as well... goverments are complex edifaces riven with discord and are fairly interesting :D

:lol: so ive been arguing with a Philosopher / Theologist / Politician about Religion?? good lord! *faints*

Its really just a random idea, and i tihink it could work. we may have to wait for Olleus to say if its possible, or worth while though :p

We could put a special ability in the Chaos Civ like that you described, it would encourage them to go as Chaos Religions. could be very intersting...


:lol: politician playing Civ :lol:

Now, drawing attention back to the SR development, Is everyone happy with this:


The "Young Gods " Religion:
In General:
Young Gods has a normal Spread rate
with normal costs and priests
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be an average cost, and will have normal effects.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Young Gods sub religion.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Young Gods sub religion. Can heal units.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Young Gods sub religion. Can heal units. Can inquisition.


Sub Religions:
-The Northern Gods
All altars, Temples and Cathedrals of the Northern Gods make Alters temples and Cathedrals of the Southern Gods unavailable in the city that they are built (meaning that one city cannot have both the Northern gods and the southern gods in it at the same time.) Altars, Temples and Cathedrals of the Northern Gods each make all units 5% cheaper to produce (military and religious).
The city with the monument becomes immune to Barbarian attacks (meaning that barbarians cannot attack the city with the northern monument)
All religious units have 1 more strength than normal religious units.

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar to the Northern Gods
Temple= Temple of the Northern Pantheon
Cathedral= Sacred Hall of the Northern Pantheon
Monument= Hall of Heavenly Protection
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Northern Fanatic
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Warrior Priest of the North
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Warrior High-Priest of the North (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


-The Southern Gods
All altars, Temples and Cathedrals of the Southern Gods make Alters temples and Cathedrals of the Northern Gods unavailable in the city that they are built (meaning that one city cannot have both the Northern gods and the Southern gods in it at the same time.) Alters, Temples and Cathedrals of the Southern Gods each produce +1 Happiness.
All Priests and high Priests of the southern gods are also able to build ‘libraries’ in cities with the Southern Gods CR at the cost of their life.
The Hall of Heavenly Bounty makes all plots of land in it’s cities radius with 2 food instead produce 3.

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar to the Southern Gods
Temple= Temple of the Southern Pantheon
Cathedral= Sacred Hall of the Southern Pantheon
Monument= Hall of Heavenly Bounty
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Southern Altar Servers
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Scholar Priest of the South
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Scholar High-Priest of the South (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


-The Old World Pantheon
All Old World Pantheon buildings produce +1 happiness if another Young Gods SR is present in the city. (cancelling out the -1 happiness from competing SR’s) all Temple Streets produce +1 gold, and Temple Districts produce +2 gold (symbolising the charitable donations by the population to the temples)
Priests are also able to inquisition.
Al Acolytes, Priests and High priests built in the city with the Seat of the Gods have one extra priest spell.

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar to the Gods
Temple= Temple Street
Cathedral= Temple District
Monument= Seat of the Gods
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Acolyte of the Gods
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Priest of the Gods
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- High Priest of the Gods (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

-The Norse Pantheon
A city with a Norse Pantheon’s ‘Horgr’ is able to sacrifice an ‘animal’, or a slave, to produce +1 Happyness for 5 turns. The Sacred Copse allows cities to build ‘Sacrificial Animals’ to be sacrificed at the Horgr. The Long House allows cities to build 2 kinds of High priest, a Seiokona who also acts also as a normal mage, and the Hersir, who is a strong warrior chieftain with very high moral bonuses to his stack but unable to inquisition. The Shamaness and Volva act also as weak mages. The Shamaness can capture slaves, and wild animals for sacrifice.
The Valhalla makes all religious units built in the city start with one extra priest spell.

---Buildings:
Altar= Hörgr
Temple= Sacred Copse
Cathedral= Long House
Monument= Valhalla
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Shamaness
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Völva
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Seiðkona and Hersir (World Unit, can only have 3 of each at a time)

and im a fairly good student of history with a great love of military history :lol:

Yeah im happy with that :D

and personally i like Lord_Olleus idea for his mod about having mini upgrades from different techs :D but that might just be me...

The Norse aninimal sacrifice idea? which way is that going to go?

Now im going to brainstorm some special traits for civs i dont like the idea of racial traits there a bit to hard to pin down... Chaos dwarves are nothing like Dwarves insofar as racially really Chaos dwarves are no longer part of the same speciese as Dwarves large scale exposure to warpstone clouds tends to do that to a race... are Brettonians really human? there peasants look really greenskin like downright ugly critters etc

Araby: Araby uses huge amounts of magic to be able to survive in there desert home... so something like desert sqaures yield +1 food and Araby units get +25% extra defense and attack on desert squares? hhi

Bretonnia: Something involving crusades.. actually just a call to arms for the Bretonnian armies normally there is only a small standing army defending Bretonnia the rest of the army is dotted around the country in small groups split between various lords and dukes... calling something like that together would take ages, in reality it used to take ages to call together a medieval army anyway... so something to allow a Bretonnia player to call together a large army or at least assemble one over time... so either a power to draft Knights every X turns from cities or a wonder that constructs new knights every X turns (with no upkeep?) and perhaps a castle type tile improvement cuts the amount of food available.. castles take up a fair amount of room increases shield production and increases defense.. just an improved version of the current fort in vannila civ which is next to useless... (there is a alot of commerce and industry generated by building a military base..)

Cathay: Well Cathay has a massive army simple, they need one Cathay is the size of the Old World and constantly fights with the various goblinoid empires and other darker things combine that with a massive population of rural peasants and that allows a massive army to be drawn together in times of need (they treat it like a type of defered tax) draft effect X3 along with a high upkeep (it costs alot to equip and feed such a large host even if you dont pay them...

The Empire: Is not a single country it is an empire composed of various independant nations who have 90% of there history killing each other.. the main difficulty to an invader is the Electors prefer to fight each other and throughout there history have only really come together because of 2 things an external enemy or a very rare strong emperor.. otherwise the empire spends most of its time fighting each other. But when the emperor makes a call to arms the state militaries have to respond. The Empires state militaries are standing armies unto themselves the Electors have to maintan a set number of units specified by the emperor. So for the empire maybe a lower unit support cost, or say 3 free units per city something like that

Estalia: Um ere thinking of Spain... ships?... mercanaries?... terico spearmen?...

Ind: Free units for each temple? more culture (this is a mod about war...) ere uummm ere

Kislev:The Pulk and Rota system which is the kislevite way of calling together there armies in the face of chaos mass draft of units that have no upkeep but are tied to national borders or have some other sort of cap?

Nippon: Maybe ban peasants and other things from there selection and substiute it by giving them more expensive but very good units?...

Norsca: More money from pillaging and all there units have chance of enslaving..

Tilea: Great militia units but no heavy knights etc..?

Chaos: Lower upkeep cost and chance to enslave units

Darkelves: Enslaving and maybe commando and the ability to heal quicker in enemy territory.. Darkelves are cunning people...

Dwarfs: Extra defenses in cities and maybe +25% extra on the defense for all dwarf units?

Orcs: WAAAGGGGG upkeep what upkeep? there Orcs they dont need much to keep going.. they are scary even when unarmed.. and only need a hunk of slag iron to do damage...

Highelves: .... not even going to bother.. wouldnt be able to control myself..

Tombkings: Umm there dead immune to phycology? aand the ability to raise new units when they kill yours..

Lizardmen: Sacred Spawnings... build buildings that build units... you dont create units the building does.. maybe not skinks who breed i think and units are born with XP cause Lizardmen are born/created knowing how to kill..

Sylvanians: was just a province of the empire... and in a scenario should appear a V day (vampire day if you will) skeletons and other undead units create new units of skeletons when they kill stuff..

Woodelves: Tree Singing they can create woods with mages... and they have Guerilla 1 and 2? or some such... i can just see it the woodelf player creating forests all over the world and overunning everything.. with trees *shudders*

Ok, well if AH or anyone else has no objections, im going to move on to the Dark Children SR now.

there are several things in there, but a lotof empty spaces, so please give us feedback if you have any ideas :)


The "Dark Children" Religion:
In General:
Dark Children has a Normal Spread rate
with expensive costs of priests
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be an High cost, and will have Good effects.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Dark Children sub religion.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Dark Children sub religion. Can heal units.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Dark Children sub religion. Can heal units. Can inquisition.


Sub Religions:
-The Veneration of Nagash
The Bone Pillar increases the heal rate of Undead units in and adjacent to the city, but decreases the heal rate of living units in and adjacent to the city.
The Temple of Skulls allows all religious units produced in the city to have access to one more spell from The Winds of Death magic.
Units can be sacrificed in cities with a Great Crypt Hall in it to produce an Undead unit with no upkeep costs (different undead unit depends on sacrificed unit ie sacrificed melee unit = Undead Swordman unit, sacrificed ranged unit = Undead Bowman unit, sacrificed mage unit = Undead Necromancer, mounted sacrifice = Undead Horseman)
Acolytes start with one death spell, priests start with 1 death spell and High Priests start with 2 death spells.
All undead and religious units built in the city with Nagashizzar in it gain the ‘Vampiric’ promotion which allows them to restore their health when they attack.

---Buildings:
Altar= Bone Pillar
Temple= Temple of Skulls
Cathedral= Great Crypt Hall
Monument= Nagashizzar
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Cultist of Nagash
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Dedicate of Nagash
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Great Follower of Nagash (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- The Horned Rat

---Buildings:
Altar= Great Belfry
Temple= Bell Temple
Cathedral= Chapel of the 13 Bells
Monument= The Temple of the Horned Rat
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Prophet of the Horned Rat
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Seer of the Horned Rat
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Great Seer of the Horned Rat (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


-The Blood Cult

---Buildings:
Altar= Blood Shrine
Temple= Blood House
Cathedral= Hall of Blood Rights
Monument= The Blood Soaked Throne
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Vampire Initiate
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Vampire Priestess
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Vampire Queen (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Gods of the Dark Forge

---Buildings:
Altar= Chaos Anvil
Temple= Black Vaults
Cathedral= Catacombs of the Dark Ones
Monument= The Dark Forge
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Acolyte of the Dark Forge
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Priest of the Dark Forge
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- High-Priest of the Dark Forge (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

The Chaos gods are evil because they are utterly selfish.

Unless one adheres to machiavellian philosophy, one cannot considder Chaos neutral. (at least what is commonly refered to as Chaos, the 4 main Gods)

I do agree that chaos (no capital C) is neutral, at least as much as the majority of life is neutral.

Random chance is not evil, although many considder it so. (just look at the response to evolution theory)
Same for entrophy. at first glance it looks evil (death and corruption), but in fact it is just time and without it there would be no life. So you could considder it the ultimate creator. The giver and taker of creation.

enough! :P

@ P_L : yes please, I'm itching. :)

One suggestion: undead units cannot be free of upkeep. They must cost magic-points or require a nearby controller (which has upkeep).
(In danger of getting too complex: perhaps a maximum number of units per controller?)
Oo! put them inside a caster as cargo! :D if they are left alone, without controller for a whole turn, they crumble.

Another promotion for norsca this time: (or Northern Pantheon) Werewulfen promotion for berserkers. or by priest.

Sad to say this but chaos is the product of human thoughts and emotions... the gods are like that because humans want them to be like that...

All humans are selfiish by nature, humans sometimes rise above that nature but most of the time we dont... we just we have but if look at our actions can we really say we did it without and selfishness...

@Psychic_Llamas dont worry were here to fill in the blanks..

Masada's thoughts on those recently dead and what a good peasant should do if his liege lord is a bit pale and doesnt like the light

And Masada's thoughts on Nagash that most horrible of liches and those who may worship him or just act like him

Heres where it gets tricky.. by veneration of nagash i just mean a set of values that the sentiment undead, so those undead that think hold. Quite often a superiority complex, arrogance, a refined sense of honour, elitism, general dislocation from the world and in some cases paranoia about death that verges on cowardice...

Religion... well really no... i dont think there is...

Heres the choice we can have it as a religion proper or we can go more my way in which the follower mirrors Nagash because of his/her condition... undeath in this case..

Im going to leave this open... we could treat it as a semi religion which can spread, vampires have a number of ways influencing areas... turning you local noblemen into a vampire may raise some eyebrows but hes still your lord...

Sylvania is like that we those still living in the province considering Manfred Von Carstien as there Elector and Count. Slightly screwed i know but he is still there rightful lord even if he is no longer alive. He still does his duty protecting the peasants in Sylvania are meant to be the worst bunch in the whole of the Empire. The taxes i would imagine would be collected in other ways, Manfred doesnt really need money. And this is where it gets really bizzare Sylvanian peasants still serve in Manfreds army alongside the undead. I dont know though its a choice between paying taxes (which are high for peasants) or occasionally having a daughter/son go missing for a bit and come back in the morning with a sore neck and looking a bit faint (and with only one Von Carstien that would very very rare...) and having the graves of you loved ones messed around every now and then. But then the Von Carstiens tend to raise most of there minions from there dead enemies...

So its a choice between taxes and funny stuff... i would choose the funny stuff...

Masada's thoughts on that most Skaveny of gods the Horned Rat

The Horned rat is the embodiment of all the great skaven values, deceit, spitefulness, backstabbing, disease and corruption (why family and cannabilism isnt in this is beyond me). So with that in mind we can safely assume his temples will represent one of these four values well five but were going to have to cull one or roll it into another...

Great Belfry: Deciet when built allows some units of skaven to have the hidden ability? or failing that allows a special skaven scout/attack rat/weak whatever the hell to be created with the hidden rule... Skaven are masters of deciet.. and of stupidity... they are just giant rats you cant expect much more from them...

Bell Temple: Spitefulness well what about poison? thats a skaveny thing units created in a city with the Bell Temple have a small chance of an instant kill of units they attack? or maybe just a poison rat something that gets a bonus to attack cities and negates defensive bonuses.. Skaven are sneaky rats who tend to attack around or through defensive obstablces... or they can just go under the walls... but they are still just Giant rats...

Chapel of the 13 Bells: Backstabbing is just Skaven incarnate so what about a sneaky rat? they ignore defensive bonuses since they are rats and can just pop out of everywhere... they are still only giant rats all we need is giant cats...

The Temple of the Horned Rat:disease and corruption are so skavenish that its scary... skaven cities are now resistant to effects caused by Flood plains, swamps and jungles... all skaven get a bonus to attacking and defending the above...

On the blood cult...

*Blink blink* wha? is that?

Out of ideas tonight...

booo! *snick, snick*
Skaven are more than just rats. :)

I think skaven temple effects should be restricted to very unpredictable efforts.
Not for things such as sneakiness and poison....That is what the techs 'stealth' and 'assasination' are for.
Bolstering the skaven morale would be a nice benefit for defence of the lair and enabling the building of Doombells would be good for the offensive.

Clan Eshin takes care of sneakishness and stealth.
Clan Pestilens are experts of plague spreading etc. (pestilence comes in late in the middleages)
Grey Seer wizards are the epitome of deceitfullness.
Clan Skryre would be able to produce the deadly warpstone machines of war skaven are feared for. These can then be added to unis as 'supportteam' specialcargo. Some early ones (poisonwind-globadiers) have a chance of decimating enemy as well as the hosting unit.

eh...:blush:

All the clans just embody a part of the Horned rat... the 4 main clans are religious institutions... the warlord clans are the laymen of the Skaven

Skaven are weaker than other races, physically speaking even goblins are stronger.. warlords take care of the moral and temples of the Horned Rat making them braver... the Horned Rat is skaven incarnate... so that would be laughable... :lol: and Skaven are giant mutated rats... cunning yes brave no, smart sorta idiotic yes..

And those values are the values Skaven look to... those are the key points of the Horned rat

And since skaven are skaven i think that attacking cities, defensive positions and terrain without penalties is great, its a nightmare in this mod as is to attack a defended position.. and really skaven cant get Knights or anything heavy to deal with it... and there soldiers should be weak as hell cheap but weak.. skaven need lots of siege weapons to do anything and yeah they should blow up all the time they are skaven...

A fully ranked unit of knights in full plate with a shield, lance and hand weapon is a skaven generals worst nightmare as is... and Skaven have one of the few armies as an empire player that i charge at... my normal tactic is to hold with infantry units and counter charge with detachments to negate there rank bonus and hopefully break them... with what may well be a +5-10 modifier.. and yes i have broken alot of things with that... and Knighs for counter attacking... the artillery is there to knock there artillery out and any targets i deem must die... but with Skaven i actually move and do stuff.. because a swordsmen will kill most skaven 33% of the time i worked it out to be or around that mark...

@AH keep it simple... all the major clans of the Skaven have been around for ages and yes Pestilens has spread some plauges... but like most Skaven things they are not very effective.. or just dont work... normal plauges seem to do more... and spread normally

@ AH: thats and interesting idea, using a 'controller' maybe something like a... Bone Spire, or Necromancer's Tower, or Tower of necromancy...maybe can be built as a tile inmrovement to expant the range and also as a city improvement. i like it, probably quite possible too. :D

not sure about making them 'cargo'.

Why werewolves? is there any fluff saying norsca has werewolves?

@masada: i agree about the nagash stuff, but im leaning toward making Nagash more necromancy oriented, and Blood Cult more Vampirism oriented. (see spoiler for details)

about skaven, i thinkid rather make temples etc have effects that have something to do with the religion and architecture, rather than the race that they represent. (see spoiler again :) )

I know AH will have a lot to say about the Skaven, and i look forward to his opinion :)

So, heres an altered list: i changed the nagash undead units to having upkeep, but also having the 'bound' promotion (explained spoiler) i also tried out something for the Blood Cult and Skaven. not too sure what to do about Gods of the Dark Forge though... Hmmmm...


The "Dark Children" Religion:
In General:
Dark Children has a Normal Spread rate
with expensive costs of priests
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be an High cost, and will have Good effects.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Dark Children sub religion.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Dark Children sub religion. Can heal units.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Dark Children sub religion. Can heal units. Can inquisition.


Sub Religions:
-The Veneration of Nagash
The Bone Pillar increases the heal rate of Undead units in and adjacent to the city, but decreases the heal rate of living units in and adjacent to the city.
The Temple of Skulls allows all religious units produced in the city to have access to one more spell from The Winds of Death magic.
Units can be sacrificed in cities with a Great Crypt Hall in it to produce an Undead unit (different undead unit depends on sacrificed unit ie sacrificed melee unit = Undead Swordman unit, sacrificed ranged unit = Undead Bowman unit, sacrificed mage unit = Undead Necromancer, mounted sacrifice = Undead Horseman)
These units all have the ‘Bound’ promotion, which means these units must stay within the cultural boarders of cities with Bone Pillars in them. In addition, Acolytes can build tile improvements called a ‘Necromancer’s Tower’ which expand the area that undead built in this way can traverse by 3 squares in each direction.
Priests start with 1 death spell and High Priests start with 2 death spells.
All undead and religious units built in the city with Nagashizzar in it gain the ‘Drain Life’ promotion which allows them to restore their health when they attack.

---Buildings:
Altar= Bone Pillar
Temple= Temple of Skulls
Cathedral= Great Crypt Hall
Monument= Nagashizzar
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Cultist of Nagash
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Dedicate of Nagash
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Great Follower of Nagash (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)





- The Horned Rat
The Great Bells of the Horned Rat creates sounds of pitches which, when heard vary to cause a feeling of happieness in followers of the Horned rat, and in non-skavens, a feeling of woe. Thus, cities with the Great belfry gain +1 Happiness. Cities with a Bell Temple, make enemy units in that cities cultural boarders have 25% less moral, and cities with Chapels of the 13 Bells prevent the building of non Horned Rat sub Religions, and the entering of non Horned Rat religious units into the city, as the sound of the 13 bells ringing constantly causes non believers to cringe in fear and go insane.
The religious units of the Horned rat can travel undetected in enemy lands, and thus can pass cultural boarders at will without causing war.
acolytes can infiltrate an enemy city, spread the influence of the horned rat ignoring walls.
Seers of the Horned Rat also are able to build Screaming Bell tile improvements, which also decrease the moral of non believers within 2 squares of them an additional 15%. they are also able to cast 1 Skaven spell.
Great Seers can spend a few turns to ‘build’ a “Doombell” siege unit. This unit can negates city defence bonus and can destroy enemy artillery. The Doombells act as ‘cargo’ for the Great Seers to ‘carry’ (its actually the other way around) and as such, Doombells MUST stay with Great Seers.
Great Seers can cast 2 skaven spells.
The Temple of the Horned Rat can toll it's bells in discord every 3 turns to inundate a target forest (make it Jungle) or desert, plain or grassland (to make it a Swamp or Marsh) tile anywhere in LOS of a skaven unit. This destroys any improvements or resource on the tiles and may create the 'Black Corn' resource only workable by skaven.

---Buildings:
Altar= Great Belfry
Temple= Bell Temple
Cathedral= Chapel of the 13 Bells
Monument= The Temple of the Horned Rat
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Prophet of the Horned Rat
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Seer of the Horned Rat
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Great Seer of the Horned Rat (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


-The Blood Cult
The Blood Shrine Heals all Vampiric units to full health when they stay in the city for 1 turn. The Blood House enables Blood Pets to be sacrificed to distribute 1 point of those Blood pet’s EXP randomly amongst the Vampires present in the city. The Hall of Blood Rights grants all units built in the city the ‘Vampirism I’ promotion, making them classified as a ‘Vampire.’ these units gain EXP faster, and are able to spread vampirism to those they defeat by creating ‘sub vampire’ 15% of the time, units called Blood Pets, also with the ‘Vampirism I’ promotion. All religious units have the ‘Vampirism’ promotion, but:
Vampire Initiates have the ‘Vampirism I’ promotion (classified as a Vampire, faster EXP gaining, 10% spawning of Blood Pet from victims)
Vampire Priestess’ have the ‘Vampirism II’ promotion (classified as a Vampire, faster EXP gaining, 25% spawning of Blood Pet from victims)
Vampire Queens have the ‘Vampirism III’ promotion (classified as a Vampire, faster EXP gaining, 50% spawning of Blood Pet from victims)

---Buildings:
Altar= Blood Shrine
Temple= Blood House
Cathedral= Hall of Blood Rights
Monument= The Blood Soaked Throne
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Vampire Initiate
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Vampire Priestess
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Vampire Queen (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)
- Gods of the Dark Forge
The Chaos Anvil adds +2 hammers to it’s city. The Black Vaults add +2 gold to its city, and also give units produced there the ‘Dark Armour’ promotion (increased defence on all terrain, and bonus Vs Dwarves) the Catacombs of the Dark Ones add +2 Science and +2 magic commerce to the city, it also produces one dispel scroll each turn, which then ‘dies’ at the end of the turn.
The Acolyte of the Dark Forge acts as a Sorcerer normally would, and starts with 1 spell from any wind of magic.
The Priest of the Dark Forge acts as a Sorcerer normally would, and starts with 2 spells from any wind of magic.
The High-Priest of the Dark Forge acts as a Sorcerer normally would, and starts with 3 spells from any wind of magic.

---Buildings:
Altar= Chaos Anvil
Temple= Black Vaults
Cathedral= Catacombs of the Dark Ones
Monument= The Dark Forge
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Acolyte of the Dark Forge
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Priest of the Dark Forge
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- High-Priest of the Dark Forge (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


EDIT: i agree with AH here masada :)

Don't forget: they don't have archers either.

Just alot of rats and some big deadly things.

And:
yeah. It is really annoying when, having plodded all the way to the other side of the tabletop under a constant barrage of arrows, their elite unit with uber-general kills of your warlord and the whole army turns tail. :mad:

Pestilens has created most of the deadly plagues in the WH world.
OK and then half the skaven died because of it too...slight oversight.

I don't think of the main clans as religious institutions.
They are just powerfull clans that have taken one aspect of the horned one to an extreme.
(I did try out a mod with them as religions and their spread represented their influence)
I think buildings for clans are ok, but not acolytes and priests, well maybe for pestilens. Other than that GreySeers are the voice of the Horned rat.
In Skaveblight all clans have their private quarter, but outside most lairs are held by a single major clan and their vasal clans.

We need to think about it some more.

-acolytes can infiltrate a city, spread the influence of the horned rat. negating walls.
-priests can hide units near them. and cast skaven spells.
-High Priests can ride a doombell that negates city defence bonus and can destroy enemy artillery.
-The temple of the hornedRat can toll it's bells in discord and inundate (become jungle/swamp) an area anywhere in LOS of a skaven unit. This destroys any improvements on the tiles.
Area of effect is...9squares? or a city-area?

The ultimate Skryre weapon would be the light-magic tunneling device that is quite likely to blow up, destroying the HRtemple and many buildings in other cities as well. As a bonus all affected cities will be connected with tunnels.
possible?

New thought... Some religious buildings are not for religous purposes as such...

Which may sound odd... but alot of these bonuses are not religous by nature. Well we wouldnt see them as religous umm things to do... Skaven, Chaos, Darkelves is what they do religous or just an excuse for doing bad things... Now in my experience alot of people dont seem to see Chaos as a religion just a sort of evil league. Chaos is a religion the tribes of Chaos may not errect Gothic Churches or other great religous edifaces to the gods... but then chaos isnt exactly known for building cities or building much at all, most of the tribes of chaos live in yurts and whatnot, they dont have time to build that sort of thing let alone the infastructure, need or materials to do it... they live a nomadic lifestyle that involves the occasional foray to attack for slaves or wealth whom so ever they wish and most of the time they sorta kill each other (which alot of people dont seem to understand.. there is no great Chaos brotherhood, there are a bunch of tribes with grudges, large amounts of wealth taken from other people, different gods and different factions which combine to make some rather nasty tribal, clan, family or people wars...). The tribes of Chaos live, eat and breathe chaos from morning to night simple. The gods can make all sorts of things happen, stigma, demonic possesion or just being the chaos gods. These people live with there gods all the time and now and then the gods take notice of someone or something... and do things to that person which the people consider a good thing. Which may infact be a good thing for a people who fight constantly and whose life expectancy would be rather low. But let me tell you this... Chaos warriors must be rare in the Old World, i dont see the Tribes of Chaos mining the ore to make the weapons/armour and even in lets say the empire that sort of armour is very expensive (full plate) that it is owned only by the Knightly Orders and by Greatswords who are the personal guards of an elector. Maintaining that sort of thing is hard as well, i dont see the Tribes of Chaos with great founderies and the best they probably have is a moveable blacksmith... now people might say but the Chaos dwarves make them and repair them (but then in some texts the chaos gods give them out... and bind them to the person forever...), i say yeah they do... but the Chaos wastes are huge.. there must be some sort of complex trade network for the suits and the parts to be shipped on. Well if the merchant lived that long which i doubt there are not any roads or paths in the wastes and the groups tend to move around alot... so these expensive, maintance heavy, heavy and very rare suits of armour cannot be equipped to a large amount of the population. So Chaos warriors must be rare.. with that in mind what makes up the armies of chaos... demons? nope difficult to bring into the world and costly to keep in it and to summon (no one wants to sell there soul...) Maurder Horsemen... maybe but horses are expensive and hard to maintain (most horses cannot live only on grass they need grain, grass just doesnt cut it.. some ponies can live on just grass but only for a short time before they start to waste... so either chaos has ponies (which i doubt) or they have horses who feed on grass and grain which makes it that much harder to keep alive in what is a dead land... with evil grass)... so what makes up a chaos horde chaos knights? of course not combine the 2 problems above and add in warhorses (which are about the nastiest thing on 4 legs to keep going...) so whats the winner? Maurders... simple they are cheap to field but they have little or no armour and no one fields them in the tabletop game... the tabletop game isnt always right players choose there composition from a list they dont aim for accuracy on the field (as an empire player 90% of all empire armies have the same or similar compisitions... a unit of speas/halbreds/swords with full command and the griffin standard (that is about the most it vaires), a hellblaster, 1 or 2 cannons, a unit of knights inner circle with full command etc) Maurders you say but there infantry... well i would imagine they would be infantry till about the moment they go into battle, horses are more expensive than men, so they dismount just before battle (Mauraders are dragoons at least i would imagine they are) the man+sword+armour probably doesnt=the horse in value. Using standard dragoon tactics you have a third of your men as horse handlers and the other two thirds do the work.. that way you can leave quickly and you save your horses if you die... simply speaking much the same can be said of most civs... the empire would have a 100 free company/archers to every Knight would have 10 cannon to a hellblaster and 10 Knights to a cannon etc... its a pyramind shape with a very steep top.. there is only one Emperor and 12 Elector counts... there can only really be 12 Units/Companies of Greatswords and maybe 5-10 smaller groups of Greatswords for the Burgeonmeisters of the various cities... there are only 10-12 Squadrons of Reiksguard Knights (a cavalry squadron being between 25-50 Horsemen normally, they got smaller as time went on...) of which half are fielded as the foot Reiksguard the personal guards and retainers of the Emperor.. (but all Reiksguard Knights are templars of Sigmar).

All the special weapons are exactly that special weapons they should be rare... a single chaos Knight according to canon may well be a couple of hundred years old having fought all that time... so it wouldnt be impossible to imagine him cutting his way through a fair amount of Skaven slaves.. with the slaves having no way to really stop him... i dont even think it would be possible unless he was out numbered on the order of a thousand or so.. what are they going to do against a man on a warhorse in full barding (complete with glowing eyes) with full plate armour with a good idea about how to kill stuff and gods that take an interest in what hes doing...

(For those who relate to 40k better... a space marine is how tall? 8-10 foot tall, with very dense very large bones, with a plate across his rib cage, a second heart, second set of lungs, an agent that clots blood really fast, ears that can filter out sounds which the marine can specify, a gun that shoots bullets the size of my hand that explode on contact and shred a target, power armour which is stronger than concrete, a knife that can cut through concrete... oh and there is only normally 3000 per chapter (at the most) and there are only about a hundred chapters... compared to a couple of billion guardsmen... i would hesitate to say but i wouldnt be surprised to say there might be a million guardsmen and PDF per Spacemarine... Space marines are made for hitting hard and doing the most damage (Space Marines are heroes with songs and stuff made about individual space marines), and the imperuim is a million inhabbited worlds (Tau space is a dot that needs to magnified to be able to be seen) so they are spread pretty thin...)

I would like to see the mod reflect that... of course i dont think that is going to happen... but at least bring it to table top level :D

And yes using some formulas it is possible to work out the theoretical numbers of aspects of a military and the theoretical population/support needed to support that military

Skaven

The Horned Rat is skaven... though he created them and thats how he is... i dont really care skaven are not my bowl of chips... played so far to date.. Empire, Wood elves (not the new ones... i prefer the old list), Lizardmen, Kislev (along time ago when i was really young), Dogs of war (along time ago), Chaos (current list), Darkelves (for a bit current list) and i have gamed with every other list at one time or another doing this and that... those are the armies i have played/collected (well been given)

I edited the Horned Rat SR in my last post with some of the changes mentioned by AH.

i think that the light-magic tunneling device should be the Skaven Civ Unique wonder. im sure its possible, we would have to wait for olleus to say yay or nay though. could be intersting

EDIT: @ masada: im sorry, was there a point to that loooong paragraph, and reference to 40K? :crazyeye:

we've already tried formulas, and no, they didnt work.

Thats an army that can be really different... most human armies are just that human they have similar units... etc

Skaven, Skaven are different :D

They are religious institutions but not like humans are used to seeing... they dont take it to the extreme... Skaven are like that the 4 clans just concentrate on one of those ideals if you will...

@AH i dont have an uber general... and i dont use arrows... cannon balls+hell blaster shots+handguns+Hochland long rifles tend to deal with things rather nicely... and yeah it is comic when Skaven turn tail and run... but then every army has its problems...

I dont even know if tunnels are possible... it wouldnt be impossible i think to destroy buildings in each city... but that would be code heavy... and swamp jungle change... that would hard... so very hard....

@PL Controllers... just make it you need X units of controllers and if you dont have enough enter massive finicial strain... (simple to code i think...) and it solves the problem well without having to much complexity...

You can do cargo stuff just make it like magic and consider it a spell... with enslave... that doesnt die... i think you can do it...

Norsca has werewolves... well wolven people who are wolfish as such.... not a great deal is coming to my memory about it...

The Blood Cult is cool... so thats for Lahima?... it doesnt fit with any thing else really...

(any comments on my above post the really long one would be good :D)

Actually masada, i think jungle swamp change would be relatively simple. make the Temple of the Horned Rat spawn a 'spell' unit every 3 turns, which has unlimited range and can terraform the land to swamp/ jungle accordingly. just borow some code from FfH :)

it may the the sleep deprivation, but i didnt undertand what you said about contollers, sorry, can you explain?

Well, perhaps we should save werewolves for the Norsca civ. i dont see shamanesses turning into giant wolves personally :)

yeh, i was aiming for lahmia with the Blood Cult, and also Sylvania, but to a lesser extent.

like i said before: was there any point to that long post :crazyeye: it may be the sleep deprivation but...

okay to the temple...

im a bit sleep deprived ive sorta forgotten what i meant...

what formulas? how did u calculate the ratios and the figures? (im talking about using some mathmatical formulas to guess if you will the a rough composition of the population/military/composition of the military/finicial costs of maintaining that military

but what formulas did you use? and why wouldnt they work? there pretty simple to do...

EDIT: @ masada: im sorry, was there a point to that loooong paragraph, and reference to 40K? that must be how tired i am i missed that... ummm ere ummm ere....

There are mentions of werewolves in Ind and Norsca... but i only talked about Norsca so im confused...

I can now see what you were aiming for with the blood cult.. it is more lahima like

hehe. I agree with you about the clans Masada.

And for the special weapons: in the unit_class lists a maximum number can be entered for each type.
However: when I was trying to make a skaven unit list, I considdered some things:
-1- Other armies can have an unlimited number of archers, catapults, cannon.

-2- Skaven need some way to counter this.
(Throwing ten units of skavenslaves against one unit of archers is not going to help the skaven much and will give the archer too much experience.)

-3- the skaven special weapons are for softening up opponents and make THEM run away in terror for a change.
Hence support units. this will give the core-unit of clanrats support fire in defence and attack.
-poison wind will ignore do X collateral damage 75% enemy, 25% self.
-warpfire will negate defencebonusses and cause firedamage.
-assasin will try to attack the most powerfull unit or hero and kill him or damage the unit. (firststrike)

-Jezzails will have a powerfull ranged sniper ability. not really carried as supportunits, rather deployed behind the lines.
-plaguecencers...not sure but cause mayhem all round. can only be carried by plaguemonks.

-ScreamingBell...should be carried like a supportweapon, gives the whole stack frenzy can destroy walls and has +300% vs siegeweapons. (the riding GreySeer will function as leader and also give leadership bonus.)



All skaven clans have a strong hyrarchy, but no need here to complicate things by including all levels of them in-game.
In general: warrior - champion - chieftain - Warlords - Lord of Decay (12+HR)
Grey Seers (equal to warlord) - Seer Lord
skryre: warplock engineer - Warlock - chief Warlock - Warlord
pestilens: acolyte - plaguepriest - plaguelord
Eshin: gutterrunner - nightrunner - adept/assasin - deathmaster etc etc


Warlords can be great general heros, Champions/chieftains can be heros
buildings: SR-like

Clan Pestilens are the most devout of skaven and as such adhere much more closely to the standard for a religion.

Altar: Plague pit, plaguemonk-units
temple: Cencer of Delerium :plaguecencer-units
cathedral: Cauldron of Pestilence: can build plaguepriests (do plague stuff)
Monument: Cauldron of a thousand Poxes:
-created: Spellbookunit:LiberBubonicus
acolyte: can convert a city with SR-CR:HR
plaguepriest can sicken units, can convert a city to SR-CR:HR
plaguelord can sicken units, can try to cause plague in a city. can convert a city with SR-CR:HR

altar: Warpstone brazier. generates a warpstone token every 5 turns.
temple: Temple of the bell. unholy mass(of vermin) is given by an acolyte of the horned rat. generates a ratswarm-unit every 5 turns.
Cathedral: Howling tower of the piper
Monumnent: Temple of the Horned Rat: GreySeers: High priests of the HR and magic users. Generates a 'ringing of discord' spell every 13 turns.

Skryre smithy:
skryre warplock engineers (low-level warlock wizards) (+warpcapacitors),
skryre weapons: poison wind, warpfire-throwers (+alchemy), jezzails (+gunpowder)
Skryre workshop:
rattlinggun (+rifling),
Doomwheel (+Steampower, +warplightning casters, +warpcapacitor),
Screamingbell (+magicalForging, +mathematics) (+music?)
Warplightningcannon (+cannons, +warplightningcasters, +warpcapacitors)

Eshin don't really have buildings...once 'stealth' is invented, eshin gutterrunners(scouts) can be upgraded to nightrunners (spies/these can build hidden outposts).
Hidden outpost: (eshin) entry level of skaven infection in a city.
assasination allows building of supportunit-assasins.
(maybe make assasination a repeatable tech: designate a (seen) enemy hero or unit: it dies)


whooo! :mischief:

edit: oh yeah this was about special unit formulae. we have some restrictions on the 'Elite' units...but as I stated at the start one can build infinate cannon, while on-tabletop one could at most field 2 or 3 in a standard army.

Oh yeah and:
I don't relish the way beastmen are the core of chaos in the ancient times. The core should be human marsuders/thugs, the beastmen would be attracted to a society open to them, but a society need to be based on humans to start with. They are also pretty powerfull for ancient units.

On another topic:

Goblinoids.
(wolves and boars will replace horses. not however the resource...maybe we could change that around: horses are food, pigs are horses...game is wolves, sheep is game?)
okay the important point:

It might be good to differentiate between a
goblin dominated society
an ork dominated society
and hobgoblins.

Lets give ork units a high upkeep. this means they will not dominate when the civic is not 'the horde'.
If civic is the horde, buildings are more expensive to build. thus goblin shamans cannot use higher level spells.
maybe some goblin units can only be built under other than 'the horde' civics?

I'm not sure how to handle the eastern hobgoblins...

--------------------------------------------
x>Z^~T+*/\|LN

In other words: I have arrived in the tech tree at Dwarven runes.
I need some ideas, as the variety of runes is immense.

First off:
'Runesmithing' could allow the building of dwarven Magic Items (but which?).
'Runes of Power' tech could then allow the unit Runelord+Anvil.

There are so many runes and types of artefact, I cannot make a choice.
Weapon, talismanic, armour, banner, engineering runes all have a host of representatives.
Best way to represent this multitude, could be through hero-promotions, but thats a load of work. (and I'm not doing it)

At least one that could be available for any unit is the Rune of Valaya or Warding or Sanctuary all of which give additional disspelling power.

Also it might be good to have some powerfull runes, that confer some larger effect. such as on an entire city.

I'm not really Dwarf-savvy, so help me out. ;)

We used formulas to try to convert the WH unit stats into the Civ Strength / movement / First Strikes stats. it worked to an extent, but they were far too unbalanced.

Please dont get into unit stats at the moment guys. Ploe spent AGES, entering all the units and stats into the game, and he would NOT be happy if we started changing that. (unless of course you volenteered to do it, and also if it was better, but i think there is no point.)
so, can we please stay away from unit stats at the moment?

@AH: were those Pestilens / Eshin /Skyre etc religions proposed as alternatives to the skaven religon above? they're good ideas, but im not sure what you were aiming at. :blush:
personally, i think those would be better to use as tech upgrades for the Skaven Civ. i dont think the Clans should interfere with the Horned Rat too much. :p

About the dwarf Runes:
ive got one of the old Magic books for WH, and its got a section on Dwarf Runes.
there are 5 grouping of Runes:
Weapon runes
Armour Runes
Runes of Protection
Engineering Runes
Talismanic Runes
so id say make a new tech for each of these, same as with the winds of magic, but with Runes.

next, id say choose 6 runes from each list, that most capture the Dwarven charcteristics. for example:


Weapon Runes (units only):
-Rune of Fire (attacks cause fire damage)
-Rune of Fury (+1 first strike)
-Rune of Might (double strength Vs units stronger than it)
-Rune of Smithing (attacks cause 1-3 times normal damage)
-Snorri Spangelhelm's Master Rune (all attacks hit ignoring first strikes and armour)
-Master Rune of Death (if the unit hits an enemy once, they die, but all attacks by this unit may miss 50% of the time)

Armour Runes (units only):
-Rune of Stone (unit gets +1 Strength)
-Rune of Resistance (unit resists 50% of spells)
-Rune of Spell Eating (unit is immune to magic, but each spell resisted has a 15% chance of destroying the rune)
-Rune of Fortitude (unit gets +1 strength)
-Master Rune of Adamant (unit Has +20% moral, may be combined with Rune of Stone, to make it +30% instead)
-Master Rune of Gromril (unit has +100% defence on all terrains, no other Armour Rune can be taken)

Runes of Protection (cities only):
-Rune of Battle (multiple runes can be built in a city. each rune gives +5 moral to cities garrison)
-Rune of Slowness (enemies in the Cities boundaries only have 1 movement)
-Rune of Fear (unit in the Garrison cause 'fear')
-Rune of Courage (units in the city are immune to Fear, panic, terror and stupidity)
-Master Rune of Groth One-Eye (all units in the city have a maxed out leadership)
-Master Rune of Valaya (cities only): (automatically dispells magic in the cities boundaries 75% of the time.

Engineering Runes (War machines only):
-Rune of Burning (Siege unit causes fire damage)
-Rune of Seeking
-Rune of Penetration
-Rune of Immolation (when siege unit is captured, it explodes, causing its normal collateral damage to all units adjacent)
-Rune of Disguise (siege unit is invisible to enemies untill it attacks)
-Rune of Accuracy (siege unit gets the accuracy promotion, i forget the name)

Talismanic Runes (Units only):
-Rune of the Furnace (unit is immune to fire, heat and flame, not affected by 'fire' attacks.)
-Rune of Passage (unit ignores forest and hill movement penalties)
-Rune of Spell Breaking (Runesmiths only. can be used the same as a dispell scroll, but always works)
-Master Rune of Spite (attacking enemy units suffer damage equal to their own when they hit the unit with the master Rune of Spite)
-Master Rune of Dismay (only used on units with a 'Musician' promotion, before it attacks, enemy units must must make a break test.)
-Master Rune of Kingship (only useable on 'Dwarf King' units, the Dwarf kings stack is now immune to Fear and Terror, and has a maxed out Leadership.)


then rules apply to the number of runes usable / unit.
units can only have 1 master rune and one other normal rune.
Units can otherwise combine 3 normal runes from any section, but cannot have multiple runes on the same item ie, cannot have 2 runes on its armour, or 2 runes on its sword, unless specified.

im not dwarf savvy either, i was just translating from a WH book :)

Yeah I know, I got a PDF of the same armybook.
It's too much IMO.

Yeah pestilens
They are just a second set of altars.
more a 'unit building-requirement' thing.

They give additional culture/money whatever, but also added unrest....
(when pestilens first returned there was a great civil war)
Pestilens and Seers are the same SR (DC-HR).
Still, Pestillens keep to themselves and everybody is fine with that.
They ARE plagueridden afterall.

Maybe they would need the warpstone brazier-altar then both the pit and the temple of bells....Im confused myself. not all the buildings and units are religious.



SR's do affect each other right?
Or is it just the CR's that have negative coexistence boni?

Yeah I know, I got a PDF of the same armybook.
It's too much IMO.

Yeah pestilens
They are just a second set of altars.
more a 'unit building-requirement' thing.

They give additional culture/money whatever, but also added unrest....
(when pestilens first returned there was a great civil war)
Pestilens and Seers are the same SR (DC-HR).
Still, Pestillens keep to themselves and everybody is fine with that.
They ARE plagueridden afterall.

Maybe they would need the warpstone brazier-altar then both the pit and the temple of bells....Im confused myself. not all the buildings and units are religious.



SR's do affect each other right?
Or is it just the CR's that have negative coexistence boni?

s l e e p ??? whats that ? :p

well, considering the Runes is the dwarven form of magic, it should be the equivilent in power to magic, so that there is no major penalty for the dwarves not having mages. perhaps we could reduce it to 4 runes per set or something.

if we give the Horned rat several possible sets of temples and priests, it could get very confusing for players. im still inclined to use what use stated earlier on Pestilens / Eshin /Skyre etc in the Skaven civ, as civ unique buildings and units.

yes, SR cause unhappyness if they are 2 competing SR, unless stated otherwise. :) CR also create unhappyness if they are competing, but SR more so.

@PL when i talk about mathmatical formulas i dont mean changing the stats... this game has great economy of scale allready. I want to work out the limits to having units (steamtanks and what not for my own enjoyment.. i do like to a see a balanced (real) army on the tabletop with a mix of units not just a few (good) units)

Otherwise ignore me on this for a bit :D

On the Skaven Question

I agree not having Archers, Knights (cavarly for that matter), Skaven do have acess to some siege weapons (but they are more AP weapons)

I agree with you throwing units away is silly... (and it happens..) thats why i proposed having units that ignore city defense and terrain defense.. wall are not that useful against a foe who can burrow under them. Or having units that get a large bonus to attacking cities (Poison gas is great for clearing defenders of walls)

sorry to say this but Skaven shooting in any form has never really caused anything in my army to run (hard to do 25% casulties in a turn of shooting) others cringe in the Skaven shooting phase so oh well... i agree though Skaven shooting doesnt win the game it is used to soften up units before you charge. And it might reduce the need to plow 10 units into a single archer...

@AH Orcs cant really be high maintance.. they sorta dont need much to breed or fight... i think they should be locked on WAAAGHHHH (the Horde) all the time because Orcs cannot do much else...

Your right we need to show a difference between Orcs, Goblins and Hobgoblins...

Hobgoblins are the Mongols/Horsemen (well Wolfmen) of the Warhammer world.. they dont even field infantry.. (maybe they fight as dragoons) simply speaking they roam around doing stuff...

@PL (Not dwarf savy here either...)

(Skaven are making my head hurt...)

:lol: so is everyone happy with the 'Dark Children' SR? if so we can move on to 'Chaos Gods.'

@ masada: i agree with everything you said in your last post :p.

i understand what you meant by formula now :p sorry about that :)
i agree that the rarety of units is important for WH. i might just leave it to you to think of a method, then we can ddiscusse it later. right now, id like to finish the basis for Religion.

Fair enough... method in my mind already :lol:

Running a series of calculations now (good old computer doing all the leg work)

I wont unveil my findings till after the religions are done :D

well, seeing as no one has any complaints sbout the 'Dark Children' SR im going to move on to the Chaos Cults.


The "Chaos Cults" Religion:
In General:
Chaos Cults has a Fast Spread rate
with Expensive priests
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be an very High cost, and will have very Good effects.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Chaos Cults sub religion. Can capture defeated enemies as slaves.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Chaos Cults sub religion. Can heal units.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Chaos Cults sub religion. Can heal units. Can inquisition.


Sub Religions:
- Nurgle
Cities with a Nurgle Altar can sacrifice slaves to give one random non deamon unit in the city the “Gift of Nurgle” Promotion (which allows that unit a 20% chance to create a Nurgling from it’s defeated enemies.
The Temple of Nugle allows its city to build Nurglings.
The Hall of Infection allows its city to build Plague Bearers with the ‘Gift of Nurgle’ promotion.
Nurgle Cultists can cast 1 spell from the Nurgle Spells list, Disciples of Nurgle can cast 1 spell from the Nurgle Spells list, Lord-Priests of Nurgle can cast 2 spells from the Nurgle Spells list.
The infernal Pit of Contagion automatically produces a great Unclean One every 80 turns (The Great Unclean One is a world unit)

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Plague
Temple= Temple of Nurgle
Cathedral= Hall of Infection
Monument= Infernal Pit of Contagion
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Nurgle Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Disciple of Nurgle
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Lord-Priest of Nurgle (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Tzeentch
Cities with a Tzeentch Altar can sacrifice slaves to give one random non deamon unit in the city the “Gift of Tzeentch” Promotion (which allows that unitto cast one spell from the Tzeentch magic list).
The Temple of Tzeentch allows its city to build Screamers of Tzeentch.
The Hall of Alteration allows its city to build Horrors of Tzeentch
Tzeentch Cultists can cast 2 spells from the Tzeentch Spells list, Disciples of Tzeentch can cast 3 spell from the Tzeentch Spells list, Lord-Priests of Tzeentch can cast 4 spells from the Tzeentch Spells list.
The Spire of Shifting Chaos automatically produces a Lord of Change every 80 turns (The Lord of Change is a world unit)

Altar= Altar of Change
Temple= Temple of Tzeentch
Cathedral= Hall of Alteration
Monument= Spire of Shifting Chaos
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Tzeentch Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Disciple of Tzeentch
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Lord-Priest of Tzeentch (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Khorne
Cities with a Khorne Altar can sacrifice slaves to give one random non deamon unit in the city the “Gift of Khorne” Promotion (which makes that unit Lust for Blood, and as such gains a movement bonus and strength bonus of 1 for the rest of the game).
The Temple of Khorne allows its city to build Flesh Hounds of Khorne.
The Hall of Blood allows its city to build Bloodletters.
Khorne rAcolytes, Priests and high priests cannot cast any Priest spells or any other spell, and cannot be affected by the Gift of Tzeentch promotion. They do however gain +1, +2, and +3 strength respectively.
The Blood Palace of Skulls automatically produces a Bloodthirster every 80 turns (The Bloodthirster is a world unit)

Altar= Altar of War
Temple= Temple of Khorne
Cathedral= Hall of Blood
Monument= Blood Palace of Skulls
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Khorne Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Disciple of Khorne
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Lord-Priest of Khorne (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Slaanesh
Cities with a Slaanesh Altar can sacrifice slaves to remove unhappiness from that city for 3 turns.
The Temple of Slaanesh allows its city to build Daemonettes of Slaanesh.
The Hall of Pleasure allows its city to build Daemonettes on Steeds of Slaanesh.
(both Slaaneshee Deamons have the ‘gift of Slaanesh’ promotion, which gives them a 20% chance of seducing a defeated enemy and produce a slave.)
Slaanesh Acolytes, Priests and high priests can cast 1, 1, and 2 spells from the Magic of Slaanesh respectively.
The Harem of Eternal lust automatically produces a Keeper of Secrets every 80 turns (The Keeper of Secrets is a world unit)

Altar= Altar of Desires
Temple= Temple of Slaanesh
Cathedral= Hall of Pleasure
Monument= Harem of Eternal lust
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Slaanesh Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Disciple of Slaanesh
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Lord-Priest of Slaanesh (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Chaos Undivided
All Chaos Undivided buildings produce +1 happiness if another Chaos Cults SR is present in the city. (cancelling out the -1 happiness from competing SR’s)
Cities with a Chaos Undivided Altar can sacrifice slaves to give one random non deamon unit in the city the “Gift of Chaos” Promotion (turning it into one random level 1 deamon of any of the 4 Chaos Gods).
The Chaos Temple allows its city to sacrifice deamons to gain 1 population
The 8 Halls of Chaos allows its city to sacrifice slaves to gain +15 instant Magic commerce.
All chaos undivided religious units act exactly as spys, except that instead of espionage, they can convert enemy cities without declaring war.
The Chaos Void automatically produces a Daemon Prince every 80 turns (The Daemon Prince is a world unit)

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Chaos
Temple= Chaos Temple
Cathedral= 8 Halls of Chaos
Monument= The Chaos Void
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Chaos Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Chaos Priest
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Chaos Mutant-Priest (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

@PL

Will chaos units have enslave?

Do you think 80 turns is a bit excessive? or is that just me?

Nurgle:

Turning defeated enemy units into nurglings on a 20% chance is good, fits fairly well with the way Nurgle works. Would be hard to have Nurgle spreading plauges etc... and this does show what the consequences of figh
ting nurgle are...

Tzeentch:

Is good, having units able to cast spells is a great idea, limiting it to one is good. And it is good that Tzeentchen "priests" can cast more spells which fit with the canon.

Khorne:

Is good, the bloodletter ability fits really well. Khorne priests cant cast spell :D which is great and they get a strength bonus to offset that perfect.

Slaanesh:

The special ability is allright (not quite the best (but thats me speaking). But Slaanesh worshippers tend to be fairly handy with spells.. i dont know, 1,1,2 might be a bit weak (for the amount of spells they can know).

Chaos Undivided:

Is exactly what it should be... however would it be possible to make the units of the Slaanesh, Khorne,Tzeentch and Nurgle more expensive to build in this religion? maybe giving the base faiths +25% build time to units and building?

Chaos undivided is actually on reflection damm good... heres what i would do... build warriors (whatever is the weakest chaos units) after i have built and altar sac them for the pop use the extra pop to whip religous buildings into existance, Slaanesh altar first... whip a bunch of Slaanesh demons into being then declare war enslave, enslave, pump out warriors sack them and whip units... oh and priest there empire out from under them... spys+religion=good :D

I dont know if that might be a little to good... you could crank out a fairly large army fairly quickly...

yes, i was planning on giving all Acolytes, priests and high priests in the whole CR the enslave ability.

for those uber-deamons, i was thinking that they would be like heroes for that religion, (making them a world unit, meaning only 1 can be in existance at any one time) and would be extreamely strong, it would also give the civ inscentive to stay Chaos so they can get those units. (plus you ned to build those monuments first to be able to build the rest of the temples etc, and by the time 80 turns comes around, the religion should be farely advanced, making it more believable that a greater Deamon would spawn.

i think Nurgle was the easyest to come up withideas for the special promotion :p im glad you like it :D

im also glad you like Tzeentch and Khorne :D

about Slaanesh: they were actually the hardest to think of a slave sacrificing ability, and i agree, that it isnt very good. perhaps just make it the same as the other SR and give units in the city with a slaanesh altar the "Gift of slaanesh", and instead of producing a slave, they just make the same unit change to your civ?

EDIT: no, that would be way too powerful.

i might also change the spells to 1, 2, 3 for the acolyte, priest and high priest respectively.

i think the +25% build time to units and building of other SR in cities with chaos undivided is a good idea, which would make it not overly powerful.
i was aiming to make it possible to build a big army quickly. that is, after all, what chaos is :D one huge, endless, army...

@PH... Chaos as a civ would have to be pretty unique... because all chaos is, is a horde...

Problem 1 with "normal civs"

1. Chaos doesnt build cities...
2. Most chaos tribes are nomads
3. Chaos really doesnt build a great deal..
4. The Hordes of Chaos are made up of a bunch of tribes who have spent 99% of the time fighting each other... (the other 1% is the time they have spent under the Everchosen... etc not very long in the scheme of things)
5. They have access to massive amounts of warriors (not soldiers)
6. There population must be massive...
7. They live in a fairly fertile area (Chaos god assisted i would imagine)
8. The Chaos wastes are massive... utterly huge...
9. They worship sub gods, minor aspects of the chaos gods... they do not directly worship Slaanesh etc they worship a part of Slaanesh.. etc
10. There are 4 major gods and an unknown number of minor aspects, demon princes, greater demons (really just a facet of there patron gods.. but even they have worshippers...) and other Chaos dieties etc
11. They fight all time, now some might say there are just 4 factions... corresponding to the 4 major chaos gods... well i would say no Chaos gods want strong worshippers, demons etc not weak ones go figure, they dont mind if you fight your fellow worshipper, Blood spilt for Khorne is still blood spilt no matter whos blood it is.. etc
12. There is no brotherhood of chaos they hate each other, inside Tribes you have conflict, inside Clans you have conflict, inside Families you have conflict, inside Villages, Yurts whatever you have conflict... The chaos tribes are the MongolsX10^25 in terms of nastiness... they Mongols did some nasty stuff like killing 10% of the world population... but there was reason for it... Chaos is alot worse than that... (Mongols wernt such a bad people to live under if you surrrendered your city and never screwed with them... they had common sense and a keen sense of how best to rule the stuff they had taken over)

Come up with a civ that best exemplfies that... i dare you Psychic_Llamas :P

(Those are helpful suggestions... if even some of them can be represented ingame great :D)

1. 2. 3. there is no way to get around chaos being nomadic. so just assume that some smart chaos worshipper suggested that they settle down in one spot.
4. but what happens under Archaon? we dont know, because its still going, and archaon is the leader of Chaos in the game. (plus he united the 4 major sects.)
5. i was hoping that Chaos would have heaps of really cheap, relatively weak deamons, and warriors etc, and then some, very few, uber tough ones, which could represent the masses of gibbering beasties.
6. i agree, which is why i gave the Chaos undivided SR the ability to Sac deamons to gain pop.
7.i disagree. why is it called "The Chaos Wastes"? explain that, i dare you ;)
8. i agree, but that is relatively irrelavent in this game.
9. 10. 11yes, but we are only representing the 4 major dieties here.
12. slavery anyone? ;)

dare accepted:D see above.

we actually havent gotten arround to doing any major Chaos design work yet, hopefully that will be one of the next civs we work on, but untill then, all ideas we come up with for chaos will be put to the side for later use:)

about the SR, i need help with ideas for Slaanesh. i dont like any of the special abilities they get, and cant think of any better ones :)

@PH 1,2,3... i know there is really nothing you or anyone can do about it...

4. Archaon and the other everchosen unite chaos for a little while... and the rest of the time they fight amongst themselves...

5. I agree chaos should be a horde... a horde who has 90% weak units and only 10% strong units... (to attack cities with... etc) since cities look to be the weakest part of how Chaos works... Chaos has never taken Kislev city.. its only taken Praag twice... and who cares about Praag, everyone knows its a speedbump :P

6. By massive im not talking about slaves im talking about the number of freemen/women etc that chaos must have to field such a large army (i would hesitate to say but there population would have to be larger than the empire to justify such large amounts of men... let alone feed them when there not united, or equip or replace casulties...

7,8 To support such a large population there must be enough land to feed all those people i talked about in point 6. Now people may say they raid for there food... i say no... they cant raid any areas that are truely fertile... Kislev can sustain its population but i would imagine it couldnt do alot more... And Naggaroth.. well lets not even bother... Cathay... im not so sure about... but it would corrospond to China.. and the north of China is not the most fertile land ever.. (all the lands they can raid are not that fertile...)

So that begs the question where do they get there food from.. the wastes are grassland/plains some of the more southerly tribes have taken to Farming... most of the Northen tribes havent there still herders...

With such a large population even if it spread over a massive area (which the lands of the Tribes of Chaos are..) they must be to some extent fertile... enough to grow grass and basic crops..

For an example of why crops are important... look at Horses most western mounts cannot just live on grass they need oats etc.. looking at the minatures of Mauraders there mounts dont look like ponies (however in some canon/black libary publications they are described as that...) horses are not easy critters to keep they need to be shod, feed, watered, kept out of the rain, kept warm, have there coats checked etc.. (they also represent an expensive piece of kit)

There must be fertile land to feed the people or there herds and by proxy the people (life may be hard... but i would imagine constant tribal warfare etc makes it alot harder) the Chaos wastes are big, and the ranges that the tribes work over therefore must be big (look in the Chaos army book for those ranges) the wastes are warm (Chaos related warmth btw) there are areas where its Chaosy...

Really to field such a large army, have such a large population, maintain large amounts of horses/live stock and farm the land the Wastes must be fertile...

(i dont know... but i would think the wastes are wastes because there not to hospitable to people from the Old World.. with all the chaos worshippers running around, the land might not be fertile by our standards.. but it would be in its own twisted way...)

9,10 I agree with that.. easier that way :P

12. Slaves... hmmm i need to do some reading up on that... i know they have them... i just want to be able to draw some rough conclusions about exactly what percentage there might be inside the wastes... a fairly large one in the south i would imagine...

4. well Archaon, being the leader has united the 4 chaos sects, but his reign has not yet ended, and he may just be the one to unite the Chaos tribes for a 1000 years... we cannot assume that he will also ony reign for a few years.

5. exactly

6. neither am i :p

7. 8. look, it really dosnt matter whether the Wastes are fertile or not, because in Civ, the startting locstion is Random, menaing they could start in desert, jungle, luch plains of tundra. its really only luck.
you can still ponder this though, and we could use the outcome in a scenario.

12. they're CHAOS. of course they have slaves :crazyeye: exact %s are also irrelivent. its up to the player how much they want their civ to rely on slavery, Chaos has the choice to use slavery, and is encouraged, but it is in no way necessary.



i still need some help with Slaanesh...



.

4. not very likely... Archaon failed... miserably... i dont doubt he might have another go... but i dont GW will let him stay on for a thousand years... at least as the Everchosen..

5. Horde armies should be horde armies... simple :D

6. Still sacrificing people is a big step... and while i dont doubt they do it.. to what extent they do it..

7,8 Well i was talking about Scenario wise :P

12. Ahhh but it does matter :P

Slaanesh... better cultists? better religion spread? ability to charm units? better first strike/combined with enslave? quicker units (Slaaneshi demons tend to be fast...), Slaaneshi units excrete a musk, thats meant to be intoxicating...?

How about a custom terrain type/'improvement' for chaos?

Perhaps chaos-religious buildings generate 'chaos wind' changing the lands around chaos cities.
(like in FoA2 with the ancient forests, or like pollution generated by factories)

This terrain could be a type of pollution layer for other civs, but still has some benefits for Chaos or demons.
(like spawning chaos-beasts that can be captured by chaos beastmasters or free healing and defencive bonus for demons / chaos units, but un-healing for normal-civ units)

The pollution mechanics could also be used to incorporate a 'meltdown' threshold when a (wild) chaos incursion is initiated.

Ok, thanks for the ideas Masada:) hows this:

- Slaanesh
slaves can be sacrificed at the Slaanesh Altar to create a miasma of intoxicating Musk over the city for 5 turns. While this ‘musk’ is in play, all enemy units adjacent to the city are affected by the “stupidity” rule.
The Temple of Slaanesh allows its city to build Daemonettes of Slaanesh.
The Hall of Pleasure allows its city to build Daemonettes on Steeds of Slaanesh.
(both Slaaneshi Deamons have the ‘gift of Slaanesh’ promotion, which gives them an extra first strike, and +1 movement, as well as a 20% chance of seducing a defeated enemy and produce a slave.)
Slaanesh Acolytes, Priests and high priests can cast 1, 2, and 3 spells from the Magic of Slaanesh respectively.
The Harem of Eternal lust automatically produces a Keeper of Secrets every 80 turns (The Keeper of Secrets is a world unit)

Altar= Altar of Desires
Temple= Temple of Slaanesh
Cathedral= Hall of Pleasure
Monument= Harem of Eternal lust
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Slaanesh Cultist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Disciple of Slaanesh
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Lord-Priest of Slaanesh (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


@AH: having the Chaos temples terraform would be interesting, but im not sure how it would work...

I have a question. How will handle Tomb Kings, Since they are mainly a magic based race.

Also if you need help I can make 3d models for all the Tomb Kings
Casket of Souls
Liche Priests
Icon Bearers
Skeleton Warriors
Skeleton Horseman
Skeleton Chariots
Ushabti
Tomb Guard
Carrion
Tomb Scorpion
Bone Giant
Screaming Skull Catapult
Settra The Imperishable
High Queen Khalida Neferher

As for hero unit I think you should use Prince Tutankhanut as one.
Sorry if any of this has been mentioned

Prince Tutankhanut was the only son of the wealthy King Ahken of Numas and was famed throughout Nehekhara for his handsome features. Tragically, the young Prince was slain before he had even come of age at 15. He had been hunting lions, for he was renowned as a particularly skilled bowman, even when speeding along the plains on his war-chariot. Separated from his hunting party, a crude spear hurled by a savage northern tribesman smashed into his chest and threw him from his chariot. Adored by his wealthy father, Prince Tutankhanut was given an elaborate burial. When the young King awoke from his death sleep he was horrified at his withered skeletal form. According to the Nehekharan beliefs, in the afterlife, the Gods would bestow each king with a body of gold. Tutankhanut was furious to find this was not the case and demanded that his priests fashion him such a body. When he arises from his tomb resplendent in his golden body and death mask, the still living people of Numas hearken to his call – they perceive him as blessed by the Gods. When the Prince and his army march to war, the people join behind the icon of Tutankhanut as they march alongside their long-dead ancestors to war. Tutankhanut has led his army to many victories. Fighting in the thick of battle, his golden form deflects even the most powerful attacks.

:wavey: Welcome to CFC Invoke Shadows!

I assume i have found a fellow Tomb Kings fan? :D

---As of yet, we have not had too much development with the Tomb Kings or Vampire Counts. I have put some thought into how they could work, so ill give a brief overview of my ideas:
I would like Tomb Kings would start out as a human race, the same as the Empire and Araby etc, but with the Egyptain flavor needed.

The Tombkings would have access to a Civ Specific Wonder, called 'The Black Pyramid of Nagash', which would make all human units in the civ unavaliable, and replace all units with undead versions. (this would symbolise Nagash's Cursing of the River Vitae to damn the whole race to eternal Undeath)

All the Undead Units would have a tag / promtion/ etc Called 'Undead' this will give these units the following special rules from the Army book:
-Undead units will Cause Fear
-Undead units will be immune to Psychology
-failing Moral tests and Leadership tests etc they will, rather than flee, suffer a certain ammount of damage determined by the ammount they failed the test by.

to represent 'the Hierophant' special Rule, i was thinking that the Liche Priests (mages) of the Tomb Kings would have a special ability to neutralise this loss of Health after failed tests in all unit in its Line of sight, or even only adjacent units.
Because of this, the Civ would be encouraged to include more Mages and magic users than many other Civs, as they need these mages to keep their armies standing.

Also, the Liche Priests will have automatic access to all of the 4 Incantations from when they are first built.

Thats it for now, ill probably start thinking of more stuff later though :p


---Also, im sure i speak for all of the Development team when i say, we would greatly apreciate any help with modles you could do.:D
just contact Ploeperpengel via Private Mail. (he wont answer for a while because he is away til mid January i think)


---Also, i agree that Prince Tutankhanut would make a good hero, but we also have not done much design work on how heroes will work, so he will have to wait:)
i would also like Settra and Khalida to be Heroes later on :D

@PH and AH chaos temples... yes :D that gets around some of the problems.. could also do that for other races that spread terrain...

Sylvania (there land is dead...)

etc etc as people think of civs.. that might benifit from the land they live in and change..?

@PH great job on Slaanesh :D by far the most varied of the chaos religions :D

@Undead... ummm Khemri ill leave it to you guys for the moment.. dont really want to wade in to that :P to rule heavy for me

I would propose that undead civs follow scorched earth tactics.

Khemri would have no need to make food once their 'undeath' conversion is complete.
This means they can convert all lands to desert or other types of 'dead lands'.
Also as they need no food, they can construct mines, villages and workshops all over the land.

Using graveyards i.s.o. farms to generate skulls i.s.o. bread is one option, but not really satisfactory.
(where are they getting their fresh dead from if everyone is already dead)

Exploiting their additional production yield from the untilled fields, we could revive an old civilization concept: units merging in cities to make them bigger.
All undead units can merge with a city containing a necropolis to increase it's skulls-meter. This could be equal to their productioncost or some calculated value based on a unit's powerlevel.
Or maybe rather: using production for growth direct would be more elegant. (as prod4culture)

Only high priests of undeath can found new cities (after the switch).
Mediumlevel -necromancers can found new cities on the ruins of old ones.


Another idea for civs that do not switch undead as a whole:
-During the conversion-times, many live civilians are rebellious.
-Any city levels lost are converted into undead-specialists.
-Once all living populace is dead, the lands are no longer tilled.
-Some necromantic spells/wonders can necroform lands.
-Other ways to gain benefit from territory?

@AH: now you're getting me thinking :p

because the Khemri (and Vampire Counts) are undead, they do not require food, instead they rely on magic for their continued existance, there for, instead of building farms, Khemri should get a tile improvement that adds +1 magic commerce (maybe a 'Liche Tower', or something along those lines for Khemri, and a 'Necromancer Tower' for Vampires?)) the Magic commerce then just replaces the 'bread' for the city growth, because the more animating energies avaliable, increases the ammount of Dead that can be reanimated.

The idea of a 'Necropolis' building in the Cities is also good. perhaps this could give a 25% increase to magic commerce, (or something along those lines)

Im not so sure about Liche Priests and necromancers founding cities, they dont seem to me to be the kind of people to build massive necropoli... ;) i think we should just stick to undead settlers.

On the note of terreforming: i think it would be best if we kept terreforming to only 1, maybe 2 civs at a stretch. I dont want every one to have the ability to terraform, because then there is no more diversity. just keep the Chaos Civ as the only one able to terreform land into 'Chaos Wastes' (or whatever)

@ Masada: Thanks:D now shall we move on to the Gods of Law?


The " Gods of Law" Religion:
In General:
Gods of Law has a normal Spread rate
with Cheap priests
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be an normal cost, and will have normal effects.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Gods of Law sub religion.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Gods of Law sub religion. Can heal units.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Gods of Law sub religion. Can heal units. Can inquisition.


Sub Religions:
- Cult of Celestial Dragon
The Altar of Ancestral Spirits gives it’s city +1 Science (showing the increased passing of knowledge down through the ages from praying to the ancestors.) The Monastery prevents the spread of other SR in the city. The Jade Halls adds +1 happiness.
The Censor can use the forced conversion ability without sacrificing itself. The Warrior Monks and the legalists are both also able to use the Forced Conversion ability as normal.
Emperor Quan’s Monument removes war weariness in the city and adds +50% culture to the city.

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Ancestral Spirits
Temple= Monastery of the Celestial Dragon
Cathedral= Jade Halls of Law
Monument= Emperor Quan’s Monument
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Legalist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Warrior monks of the Celestial Dragon
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Censor (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Jintoism
The Altar of Ancestral Spirits gives it’s city +1 Science (showing the increased passing of knowledge down through the ages from praying to the ancestors.) The Jinto Shrine Adds +1 Happiness from forests. The Jinto Monestary adds +1 health to the city and increases Unit heal rate in the city’s radius.
The Jinto Monks have a more advanced form of healing and heal greater damage than other monks. The Jinto Warrior Monk also has increased healing, and +1 strength.
The Great Pagoda Temple automatically spawns Jade Guardian Dogs every 10 turns, with 0 movement and strong defence. It also grants religious units produced in the city the ‘regeneration’ promotion.

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Ancestral Spirits
Temple= Jinto Shrine
Cathedral= Jinto Monestary
Monument= The Great Pagoda Temple
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Jinto Acolyte
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Jinto Monk
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Jinto Warrior-Monk (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)



- Ormazd Pantheon
Cities with the:
Altar get +1 Culture,
Temple get +1 Happiness
Cathedral prevents the spread of non state religion, and other SRs in the city
priests of the Ormzad pantheon get the ‘inquisitor’ ability
All acolytes, priests and high priests of the Ormzad Pantheon built in cities with the Cathedral are able to summon elementals and act like normal elementalists.
High Priests have access to more Elemental spells than the priests and acolytes.
Al-Alnon’s Garden acts as a physical tie to the elements, making summoning of elementals in the civs cultural boarders easyer, and renders elementals in it’s boarders permanent.

---Buildings:
Altar= Obelisk to the Gods
Temple= Temple of Al-Anon
Cathedral= Al-Anon Grand Temple Complex
Monument= Al-Anon’s Garden
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) --- Ormzad Initiate
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priest of Ormzad
High Priest (requires Cathedral) --- Great Sage of Ormzad (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)




- Sigmarism
The Hammer Altar adds +1 hammers to the city. The Temple of Sigmar prevents the spread of other SR in the city. The Cathedral grants new units produced in the city the ‘Zealot’ promotion (meaning they are immune to other religious effects on units, such as the ‘gift of Nurgle’ promotion)
All Sigmarite religious units start with the Zealot promotion, and the Warrior Priest, and Theogonists gain +1 strength. The theogonist has one extra priest spell.
The Hammer of Sigmar grants its city the ability to conscript units and to cause no unhappiness. All conscripted units in this city are Knights of the Twin Twiled Commet, or Warrior-Priests of Sigmar.

---Buildings:
Altar= Hammer Altar
Temple= Temple of Sigmar
Cathedral= Cathedral of the Twin Tailed Comet
Monument= The Hammer of Sigmar
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Sigmarite Zealot
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Warrior-Priest of Sigmar
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Grand Theogonist of Sigmar (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

Time for some of my input :D (been a bit lazy of late..)

reading Tacitus's Annals of Imperial Rome *laughs*

@PH i guess the main thing is to keep it simple with regards to the undead... if that trade can be the case great :D

Oh and most undead buildings have some magical input into there construction... and i would imagine those built after undeath are made by the undead...? it isnt impossible to imagine a necromancer in need of a hideyhole raising a force of skeletons to create it.. what other workforce would he have access to to?

Terraforming is interagal to many civs... Lizardmen without Rainforest.. Wood elves without Woods... Skaven without skaven related nasty terrain... etc

@PH

Gods of Law :D

Cult of the Celestial Dragon is good :D

Jintoism is good

Ormazd Pantheon is that religously intolerant to such a great extent?

Sigmarism yay.... but the ability to conscript warrior priests of sigmar and Knights of the twin tailed comets might be a bit to extreme.. flagelents and other assorted religous fanatics yes...

Oh and there is only 1 Grand Theogonist of Sigmar change the High priest to Arch Lector of Sigmar of which there are 3, the Grand Theogonist of Sigmar as well as the Arch lector of Nuln and Talibrheim (spelling?)... the Grand Theogonist of Sigmar is the Arch Lector of Altdorf as well as the Grand Theogonist of Sigmar :D

Otherwise great job :D

@ masada: The Ormzad Pantheon is the Religion aimed at Araby, and if you were to look at the history of Araby, you would see that they went on massive holy wars for Al-Anon (aka Ormzad) and thus they are intolerant of any other faith, bar Ormzad. so yes, i think Ormzad is very religiously intolerent ;)

thanks for the correction about the Arch Lectors, didnt know that :blush:

Arnt Flagellants supposed to be very good units in WH tabletop? but, ill take your word for it, knights of the twin tail changed to Flagellants.

Theres terraforming, and then theres planting trees ;) im pretty sure theyre different.
Chaos could terraform (ie change the base terrain to CHaos Waste
maybe there could be an undead terraforming-thingo, which lets undead races terraform base terrain to a 'dead' version of the orriginal. ie Plains -> Black Plain?, Desert ->Barren land?, Grassland -> Darkland? forest -> Dead Forest etc. these could have healing benefits to undead units, and negative 'healing' to living units?
Skaven religion monument is already able to 'plant' marshland. (ie it can be cleared to reveal the base terrain)
Woodelves can plant forests (ie it can be cleared to reveal the base terrain)
Lizardmen and Amazon should also be able to plant jungle and get extra benefits from them.



The " Gods of Law" Religion:
In General:
Gods of Law has a normal Spread rate
with Cheap priests
Its Altars, temples and Cathedrals should be an normal cost, and will have normal effects.
---General Buildings:
Altar --- +1 Culture
Temple --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Cathedral --- +1 Culture, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion
Monument --- +1 gold for all Religious Buildings of its faith, increases spread of its faith’s sub religion.
---General Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) can convert a city to its Gods of Law sub religion.
Priest (requires Temple) can convert a city to its Gods of Law sub religion. Can heal units.
High Priest (requires Cathedral) can convert a city to its Gods of Law sub religion. Can heal units. Can inquisition.


Sub Religions:
- Cult of Celestial Dragon
The Altar of Ancestral Spirits gives it’s city +1 Science (showing the increased passing of knowledge down through the ages from praying to the ancestors.) The Monastery prevents the spread of other SR in the city. The Jade Halls adds +1 happiness.
The Censor can use the forced conversion ability without sacrificing itself. The Warrior Monks and the legalists are both also able to use the Forced Conversion ability as normal.
Emperor Quan’s Monument removes war weariness in the city and adds +50% culture to the city.

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Ancestral Spirits
Temple= Monastery of the Celestial Dragon
Cathedral= Jade Halls of Law
Monument= Emperor Quan’s Monument
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Legalist
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Warrior monks of the Celestial Dragon
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Censor (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)


- Jintoism
The Altar of Ancestral Spirits gives it’s city +1 Science (showing the increased passing of knowledge down through the ages from praying to the ancestors.) The Jinto Shrine Adds +1 Happiness from forests. The Jinto Monestary adds +1 health to the city and increases Unit heal rate in the city’s radius.
The Jinto Monks have a more advanced form of healing and heal greater damage than other monks. The Jinto Warrior Monk also has increased healing, and +1 strength.
The Great Pagoda Temple automatically spawns Jade Guardian Dogs every 10 turns, with 0 movement and strong defence. It also grants religious units produced in the city the ‘regeneration’ promotion.

---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Ancestral Spirits
Temple= Jinto Shrine
Cathedral= Jinto Monestary
Monument= The Great Pagoda Temple
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Jinto Acolyte
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Jinto Monk
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Jinto Warrior-Monk (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)



- Ormazd Pantheon
Cities with the: Altar get +1 Happiness , Temple get +1 Happiness from Incense and priests of the Ormzad pantheon built in those cities get the ‘inquisitor’ ability, Cathedrals make their city immune to the spread of non state religion. All priests of the Ormzad Pantheon built in cities with the Cathedral are able to summon elementals and act like normal elementalists.
Al-Alnon’s Garden acts as a physical tie to the elements, making summoning of elementals in the civs cultural boarders easyer, and renders elementals in it’s boarders permanent.

---Buildings:
Altar= Obelisk to the Gods
Temple= Temple of Al-Anon
Cathedral= Al-Anon Grand Temple Complex
Monument= Al-Anon’s Garden
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar) --- Ormzad Initiate
Priest (requires Temple) --- Priest of Ormzad
High Priest (requires Cathedral) --- Great Sage of Ormzad (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)



- Sigmarism
The Hammer Altar adds +1 hammers to the city. The Temple of Sigmar prevents the spread of other SR in the city. The Cathedral grants new units produced in the city the ‘Zealot’ promotion (meaning they are immune to other religious effects on units, such as the ‘gift of Nurgle’ promotion)
All Sigmarite religious units start with the Zealot promotion, and the Warrior Priest, and Theogonists gain +1 strength. The theogonist has one extra priest spell.
The Hammer of Sigmar grants its city the ability to conscript units and to cause no unhappiness. All conscripted units in this city are Flagellants, or Warrior-Priests of Sigmar.

---Buildings:
Altar= Hammer Altar
Temple= Temple of Sigmar
Cathedral= Cathedral of the Twin Tailed Comet
Monument= The Hammer of Sigmar
---Priests:
Acolyte (requires Altar)--- Sigmarite Zealot
Priest (requires an Altar in 3 cities)--- Warrior-Priest of Sigmar
High Priest (requires an Altar in every city)--- Arch Lector of Sigmar (World Unit, can only have 3 at a time)

Yes Flagellants are a powerfull unit, but rare. And they are voluntaries, the Empire has not much control over their creation or their actions. They just tend to follow armies.
The Empire is happy to have these undaunted fighters with them, but the professional knights are still a bit embarrrased. ;)

Terrain forming
Either
all civs should be able to revert evil terain-types back to their normal state. (a hightech or high magic ability)
or
the Undead/chaos-waste terains will revert back on their own after X centuries without chaos/undead management.
(Maybe an average halflife time for necroformed tiles)

Otherwise the 'free terraforming ability' may be too strong.

Just a thought, However you may feel it is a good thing to make lands permanently dead and virtually uninhabitable for normal civs.
Another reason not to condone an undead or Chaos civilization existing nextdoor to yours!

Undead terrain.
Yes I like the mirror-undead world type of terrains. (drowned forrest, Ashplains, etc)
I think most really undead-like terrain features would need to be constructed though. (barrows, monoliths, graveyards, towers of bone etc)

How about a general water/leeching effect?
Grassland turns into plains, Plains turn into desert, desert can turn into ashlands. Ice can turn into black ice. Permafrost is ok as is.
Dont realy like this for undead though.

Corrupting of forrests is a general theme in evil armybooks.
Beastmen and other outcasts (and greenskins) gather in forrests. Although mostly because of the defencive bonus.
The woodelf greatest enemy is an undead spirit that corrupts forrests.

@PH i think most religions in the warhammer world are a bit intolerant at least by todays western liberal standards... but i dont think they hold a patch to some of the pleasant episodes that have happened in history in the real world... in actual fact i think that the religions of warhammer are the least gothic bit of the whole thing... if you except culturaly extreme leanings.. for some civs Darkelves etc

But Ormazad is a pantheon so by its very nature it isnt very religiously intolerant :P

(ill go by your word)

@PH *takes a bow about the Arch lectors*

Flagellants are pretty miserable units in warhammer... WS2,T2(?)S2 with a flail +2s in other words they cant hit a barn door, let alone the barn itself... they are immune to mental things... never really been of us to me... they take up a rare slot *cries...* and the choice falls between a hellblaster or flagellents... guess what i pick in most games... even in the large games i have played i take 2-3 hellblasters...

Now some Flagellant related history... Flagellants are religous fanatics, simple... they are unhinged loons who believe the whole world is ending and in the process has somehow screwed them, so they are unhinged loons with a fatalistic view of the world add in some sigmarite views of the world and poof... you have a bunch of religious zealots, berift of all logic with a very dark view of the world... throw in some weapons and you have armed religious zealots, berift of logic and compassion, with a very dark view of the world and a way of repaying debts to Sigmar (the Saviour), the world and umm people who screwed them...

And they really really look ugly amongst all my nice uniformed state troops, cannons, hellblasters (i dont like mortars...) and steam tank :D (another random Masada rant :D)

Wood elves.. dont just plant trees... they cheat they use magic to help them grow... and there elven trees not just your average trees... only elves would come up with using tree spirits.. they cant even fight like men.. with guns, cannons and tanks.. (Brettonians cant be men by dint of the lack of guns, cannons and tanks :D)

The Undead concept of terraforming is interesting... KISS (keep is simple *whatever word here* is the best principle to use atm :D)

@ AH: I like your idea about terraformed terrain reverting back if not maintained (ie in the civs cultural boarders) that would be very good i think :)

The undead terrain improvements could be different... but that might be too much effort... but it would make them way more unique :D
farms replaced by Barrows/Graveyards etc
I think that some undead terrain terraforming could be:
Grassland -> Dark Lands
Plains -> Ash Plains
Desert -> Barron Wastes
Tundra -> Permafrost
Ice -> Black Ice
Forests and jungles -> Scarred Forest? Cursed Forest? haunted Forest? Dead Forest?
Mountains -> Volcanoes?
Hills -> ???

@ Masada: Flaggelants seem like a good choice then. particularly because theyre volunteers and i dont want sigmarite conscription to cause unhappyness :)

PS i didnt know i changed my name to Psychic Hamas :lol: ;)

@PH :P (dont know when that started happening.. but if its not broke...) saying there volunteers might be a bit extreme... there just people who have lost everything and have gone off on a fairly large ummm bender for want of a better word...

@PH At a strecth those extra "evil" terrain versions could be extended to the Dark Elves home which is rather umm "evil"...

On a further note Slyvania has always been a bit "evil" even before the Von Carstiens became undead, they were not exactly "good" people. But even before the Von Carstiens took over Slyvania was a fairly poor province with more than its share of problems... (always has been a fairly poor province as well..)

Grasslands-> Dark Lands/Dead Lands
Plains-> Bone Plains/Ash Plains/Corpse Plains/Dead Plains
Desert-> Desert/Forsaken Desert
Tundra-> Permafrost/Frozen Lands
Ice-> Black Ice
Forest-> Petrified Forest/Black Forest/Dead Forest/Haunted Forest/Curseed Forest
Jungle-> Death Jungle/Forsaken Jungle
Mountains-> Black Mountains/Corpse Mountains
Hills ->Barrows (which are hills.. or at least look like them :P)/Broken Hills/Dark Hills/Black Hills/Forboding Hills

--->Funny how easy it is to come up with these... i have to blame all the silly High Fantasy books i have read... Gothic Fantasy isnt much better... Oh the Cliches... *tries not to point at Eragorn* (a good book but a lesson in Cliches...)

@Everyone... maybe just having an alternative set of terrain to start with when the map starts might be a good idea? have "evil" improvements and buildings that give more food on "evil" terrian... i guess the same could be applied to neutral teams etc?

volunteers, people who have lost everything, same thing ;)

i dont think that those terrains would suite DE. i think they live in mountains and snowy forests after all...

those names are good *impressed* i like these ones:
Grasslands-> Dark Lands
Plains-> Ash Plains
Desert-> Forsaken Desert
Tundra-> Frozen Lands
Ice-> Black Ice
Forest-> Petrified Forest
Jungle-> Forsaken Jungle
Mountains-> Black Mountains
Hills ->Barrows/Broken Hills

i dont think everyone should have thier own terrain (and im pretty adamant abut that)

Would it be possible to add techs so that the nations can advance to the era of 40K? There would be an extra asset in Main Menu->Single Player->Custom Game->the down-middle menu where you can change assets such as No City Razing, Aggressive AI or Raging Barbarians, that when turned on will be possible to advance to 40K era and when turned off it will not be possible. (Hope you understand) This change would mean a lot of extra work to do, and I´m not even sure it is a good idea.

Would it be possible to add techs so that the nations can advance to the era of 40K? There would be an extra asset in Main Menu->Single Player->Custom Game->the down-middle menu where you can change assets such as No City Razing, Aggressive AI or Raging Barbarians, that when turned on will be possible to advance to 40K era and when turned off it will not be possible. (Hope you understand) This change would mean a lot of extra work to do, and I´m not even sure it is a good idea.

Definitly not planned. The Great Apple was working on a 40 K Mod. Ask him about it.

@PH *laughs*

Righty-o then those names they are, good old brainstorming

Having a look on my trusty Warhammer map (fold out version fits into your pocket :P) for Naggaroth

(typed up all the major terrain names deleted them and just decided to do the good ones)
-Lakes of the Abyss
-Sea of Chill
-Sea of Malice
-Black Forests
-Plain of Spiders
-Witch Sea
-Doom Glades
-Boiling Sea
-Ilse of Great Beasts
-Tyrant Peak
-Petrified Forest
-Wyvern Lake
-Forests of the Viper
-The Bleak Coast....

(thats all the evil sounding stuff in Naggaroth... its almost as bad as the Chaos wastes... but not quite... in other words it can kill you pretty fast :D!!!)

And i was talking about having Neutral, Good and Evil terrian bases to start with in effect 3 types of terrain... with certain buildings giving better effects for certain types of terrain... The Empire doing better on "good" terrain with its buildings providing better stuff etc etc (that would be a bit to complex... but it would be interesting... with the terraforming serving as a way of expanding the area in which you can work land effectivly)

Other stuff of Interest... (for a scenario, nothing else really for me to write about :P)

-What the hell is the Hinterlands of Khuresh? (underneath that live Forest Goblins...)
-Elithis is still inhabbited by elves isnt it? i know the Gates of Calith still have elves...
-There are just as many Lizardmen settlements in the Southlands as there are in Lustria
-If anyone wishes to correct me... the Amazons live between the ruins of Tlanxla, the Aymara Swamps and the Spine of Sotek and then they have a narrow strip of Territory running down the Spine of Sotek to Itza
-There are imperial enclaves in the Southlands, Sudenburg and Lustria, Dalmark Town (now abandoned) and Swamp Town (which was founded by Marienburg...)
-The southern Wastes have Daemons...
-In addition i have made a massive mistake... i had made the assumption that the Norse and Norsca were one in the same... apparently they are not... most maps show Norsca blending (at least in the North into the wastes) which it does not!!... oh well there still Chaos scum...
-Directly North of the Ogre Kindoms are Greenskin Nomads (Hobgoblins?,Goblins?,Orcs?...)
-The Dark Lands is large twice the size of the Empire inside of which lives.. Chaos Dwarves, Hobgoblins, Goblins, Orcs, Human enclaves, Orge enclaves, assorted other unpleasant creatures and umm Snotlings.. and the Orge version of them...
-The Silk road runs through the Mountains of Mourn and past a ruined Giant City (the Ogre Kingdoms capital might i add) and past something called "the Great Maw"... hmmm wonder what thats about :P then through a Warpstone Desert (if anyone can tell me what city the silk road ends in it would be most welcome..)
-Oh and the Chaos wastes are at least a 1/3 of the total world land mass if you exclude the Southern waste...

@Warhammer 40k is in way related to Warhammer Fantasy, Gamesworkshop has greatly distanced Warhammer and Warhammer 40k often in some unpleasant ways... Squats (for those to young to know... think Dwarves in space.. only they were more than that :P *casts a nasty look at Gamesworkshop :P* (Terra in 40k is earth... The Emperor is like 50,000 years old born and he was born in 8,000BC in Mesopotamia, the Emperors Palace is built on top of the Himalayan Mountains (thats all the 40k Trivia you will get off me for today :P)

Oh and the Great Apple is still indeed working on the 40k mod which i must say is great :D

About the 40K: maybe (this is a very broad MAYBE;) ) once both mods are complete the 40K team and fantasy team coulddiscuss combining the mods...
i doubt it though :p

i still dissagree with the terraforming for all races. too mauch to do, and it removes the individuality of the few civs that SHOULD have it.
by the way, wasnt it you masada who said there was no clear definition of 'good' and 'evil' :p so how would good and evil terrain work? :p (this is a rhetorical question;) )

darkelves do indeede live in a deadly place, but its a naturally deadly place. those terrain fatures you mentioned are named because of how they appear to the races of the world, not because there is evil emanating from it :p.

@PH it isnt terraforming for all races far from it... its grouping lets say the good races in the old world... the Empire, Tilea, Estalia, Kislev etc into a terrain group... the evil races into a group etc you should only end up with 5 sets of terrain or so (but it was only a thought, and i dont think it detracts only certain teams would be able to terraform it.. im talking about terrain that spawns at the start of the game so you have "good" terrain spawn on the map as well as "evil" terrain)

Yes i said there is no good and evil and that everything is relative.. however notice i used "good" and "evil" (i just got lazy later on) really its only a way of grouping different civs.

Naggaroth is indeed a natraully dangerous place however i can assure you by the normal definition of evil (not mine) the place is evil... Darkelves are about the only race i will say are evil because they would be about the only race who describe themselves as evil...

Naggaroth has intelligent predators *doesnt look at Cold ones*, plants that try to kill you, chaos warped abominations, various other nasty things... i think that could be called evil.. or at the very least incliment (and it isnt entirely natrually evil... chaos has warped the place a bit beyond the pale and the Dark Elves make it even more unpleasant.. by feeding harpies... etc)

I thought about dessert and that no army can survive there unless they bring their own water.

I propose instead of healers as in FFH, rather use baggage trains to heal armies on the foot.
Armies would take 5-20% damage (fixed maximum) from dangerous or deadly terrain every turn, a baggage train could replenish this damage.
Baggagetrains would also boost morale or damage morale in surrounding squares if captured.
Special artefacts, such as altars could be carried by trains.
Trains have no defensive capability unless a detachment is allocated to protect it. The army pennymaster and clerics commonly travel in the train as well as campfollowers.
The train is a wheeled unit and suffers double terrainmovement modifiers unless a road is present.
movement is 2.
requirements are horsebackriding and pottery.

in addition terrain-skills could nullify the damage from specific terrain-types or make units immune to deadly terrain.

Deadly (natural) terrains:
dessert (req water), ice (req fire fuel), (tundra/permafrost ?)
Special dessertrat/icewalker survival skills.?

unnatural terrain: polution/fallout, chaos waste, undead waste.
Units may need spiritual protection in the form of a priest to protect them from incubi and things that go bonk in the night on these tiles.

i agree healers dont fit into warhammer... baggage trains are a great idea... however what about all the civs who dont use wheeled transport for there baggage or for that matter use a baggage train...?

Darkelves for instance are a raiding people who dont tend to stray to far from the coast... and i very much doubt they carry large amounts of wagons on there arcs, more likely they carry enough provisions on there backs and on there cold ones and dark steeds

Lizardmen are much the same they have large dinosaur carryalls which relagate the usefullness of wagons to nil

Chaos doesnt use baggage trains they are a raiding people who travel light and steal what they need

The empire tends to shy away from baggage trains with most imperial armies defending a set area (they seldom move away from them) the only thing they need to take on wagons are some of the heavier artillery pieces the rest is mounted on gun carriages or carried by mules, horses, donkeys etc...

Norsca are in much the same position as the dark elves...

Ogres can carry alot.. and can eat pretty much whatever they come across so that mitagates the need for a baggage train

The Undead dont eat...

But i agree with some ummm changes baggage wagons, black arcs, dinosaur carriers, orgres etc could umm be treated as baggage wagons

Otherwise great idea ignore my quibbling :D

Would it be possible to have units build fortresses? in enemy territory? if you build a fortress/encampment/whateverthehellyouwanttocallit.... you suffer no damage from terrain.. but it also adds a nice tacital edge to the game (after all Europe in the middle ages was a mess of castles.. have a look at how many Oliver Cromwell knocked down during the Glourious Revolution to get an idea of how many there were in England alone... oh and have a look at how quickly he was knocking them down with the cannons his model army were using 4 days or so to reduce royalist fortress to the ground :O) that way you could have defended positions to put your guns in to attack enemy cities and you could have real sieges OO!!! \

and you could have some units build roads too allow your baggage train to catch up with your army? Sappers? etc

WOW this opens a big can of worms :D!!!

Special note

Tommorow or tonight after work, i will attempt to write up the results of my exaustive study of how the hell to do national limits... using a varity of means of divination i have come up with a rough working method

Just dropping in with a question. I intended to open a public forum for the WH-Mod as soon we release the warlordversion but the release will have to wait a bit since me and Olleus currently have to attend to other matters. Anyway as the discussion is right now it seems to me you guys could already use more space than a single thread. Do you want me to ask Thunderfall to open us a public developement forum or do you think the brainstormthread is enough until we can release the first version of WH-Warlords?
Note: that release won't yet include most of the concepts that were discussed here since there is still a lot on the todolist before we really can get to the funstuff. Once the remaining modcomps we intend to merge are in, techs are revamped and bugs are extinguished I'm really looking forward to work on the realization of concepts discussed here.;)
So want to have more space already or wanna wait?

btw: building fortresses outside cultural borders is partially realized already in the warlordsversion - the poor AI performance with this feature is still a problem though.

well, the idea of baggage train units which negate negative terrain modifieres or add possitive modifiers to the stack is a great idea:)
i tagree that they would have to vary slightly civ to civ, giving each one a unique modle or advantage etc (dark Elves Raiding Party, Lizardmen Carnosaur Trains, Ogres Knoblar supply, etc etc)
this could make some very interesting gmae play and strategies :)

I see what you mean by good and evil terrains not Masada:)
it would be difficult to group it all though, eg, having Orcs gobblins, Ogres, Dark Elves, Chaos, Norsca etc in one group, they dont live on terrain remotely alike yet they are all 'evil'

Ooh! infiltrator improvements :) castles and fortresses in enemy boarders would be VERY interesting :D

i think a new public forum would be good Ploe, even though it is mostly AH, Masada and i on here, we have come up with a lot of different ideas, and we should have a way of cattegorising them :)
if you could get one it would be great, but no need to rush yet :)

A seperate brainstorm forums?
Why not?
But then we'd need to storm on two places at once. I don't think I got the wind.
:lol:

I like it you like it. :) Last time I mentioned supplytrains, they were met with the opposite response. But that was with a totally no-fun logistics concept.
I'd love to have baggage trains in, as they were a major part of early WH versions.
(And campaingns/special defend the train objective scenarios)

I agree with the points you mentioned, still the concept should not be too complex.
Any army has a train. stationary armies just have a HQ in some village. It is frankly the logistics centre, including whores, foodstores, pay, priests, commander, fledgers, mobile smithy, etc.
That said, some units are independent and live of the land or don't need supplies. Such as woodelf waywatchers etc. I would say scouts too, but then I thought about halflings...they and baggagetrains are inseperable.
These units should have a survivalist-skill.

Terrain damage would only be incurred in some types of terrain and each type may have a skill/ability to negate the effect. (Chaos units shouldnt go mad on chaotic wastes, they are already mad.)
...Hmm a nice Chaoswaste effect could be sapping unit morale, then when too low instead of fleeing, they turn Chaos.

A carnisaur transport would replace the train as a special unit and would not have the neg.terrain-modifiers.
Undead still need arrows made and a spare femur to replace the broken one.
But I agree, they should be free from terrain damage or train-healing. However the train could be used to transport vampirecounts and other large artifacts. Nah, better to assume they travel in style while they move about.
Undead armies not always consist of only the dead, so a national ability is no option.
Vampirecounts have living underlings and even Ghouls are a living unit.

So...undead special promotion/ability to give certain properties?
-no healing.
-no damage from disease or naturalterrain or undead terrain.
-cause fear.
-immune to psychology.
-magical instability + -controlled automaton
(seperate ability to distinguish from vampires and liches, can also be used for summoned units)

---
Sappers.

Great! Always loved sapping, never much used in standard games though.
The upgradable fortifications (mentioned earlier in terrain-upgrades section) would come in nicely here.
The fist level would be a wooden lookout tower or defensive camp (Roman style)
This camp could provide some small defensive bonus, but more importantly units would not flee away and rather huddle in the camp than run away.
sapers don't build roads. But can build tunnels, fortifications in enemy territory and give a city assault bonus to other units in same stack.

Tower and camp could be upgraded later.
wooden lookout, -> stone-tower, -> small castle or wizard tower.
Entrenched camp, -> wooden pallisades, -> small castle, -> Fortress.
I would assume potholes, wooden pikes, sandbags are covered by the standard fortify bonus of fortified units.
The towers increase sightrange of occupying units, but can only offer defensive bonus to a small number of troops. Maybe towers could be assumed to be always manned and give LoS.
So either a small bonus only for all or only for the first unit in the stack. (could units be 'loaded'into terrain improvements?)
The camp-series of fortifications should prevent troops fleeing and give some addional artillery abilities. As well as negating any deadly terrain effects in that tile.
However camps do tend to be a magnet for filth and diseases. So a negative health if within a cities footprint. Small chance of units contracting an ailment, that should be temporary. Once a unit is diseased, next turn either healed or a tiny chance of a plague taking hold. A plagued unit remains sick and contageous untill healed by a unit able to heal.
(The diseased ability in FFH was too pervasive, one battle with a diseased unit and virtually all unit in both piles were sick.)

A seperate brainstorm forum would be good... just for the multiple different threads.. i tend to like to go off on tangents as is that wouldnt help but having a scenario thread, a balance thread etc would help :king:

Logistics

Is about the only thing that 99% of all strategy games fail in. Civilization perfect in almost everyway at least compared to the competition (nothing can ever be perfect.. there is one person i know who comes close.. close i said *casts a dirty look*) fails in this department as well.. though in vanilla civilization it is probably a benifit its an empire building game not a game built around silly micro changes.

However in this mod having a fairly simple system would benifit the mod.

Any army should have a train, even stationary armies need to have supplies flowing into the area in which it is guarding/occupying/whatever. It is depending on situation in addition to a food and supplies center everything else that an army needs... as AH said so nicely... (im not going to dirty my lips with all that :lol: )

However to nitpick... its seldom contains the pays or for that matter priests...

What we need to do is list units into nice catagories...scouts etc (im allready doing that so leave that to me... there are exceptions.. but lets not worry about that... thats part of my national limit excersise)

The oddities im not quite interested in... atm (what lizardmen use to transport goods on i dont care about atm, only that it isnt going to be a carnisaur)

Undead armies bar the Vampire counts are only undead... Khemeri, Undead of the Vampire coast..

Ghouls do live.. but they feed on corpses.. they may live but there is never a shortage of bodies if your near a Von Carstien... some other things are alive... but they would be in the minimun...

Sappers

I was just talking about encampments... but more sophisticated structures could be built... i think it might be better if its tied into techs.. like Mathematics etc..

Perhaps with options to add some additions to it like Civ3.. or if possible having a galatic civilization 2 approach and having the option to have an outer wall or a gun position etc?

Towers... like radar posts in civ3? i think would be good... assume they are manned and use them to increase LOS (would be very good in a scenario on a giant map.. this mod tends to kill large empires with the nice 0% science and -100 gold a turn, its to expensive to build alot of units and station them on the border anyway Towers would deal with that...)

Troops should not be able to flee from them... that makes sense :D

Disease, i would agree with and yes in FFH2 it was way to powerful

Terrain

Maybe have terrain like Greenskin terrain... Nasty terrain (Chaos, Dark Elves, Norsca etc)... Old World (Empire, Tilea etc) or maybe extend it to semi-Civilized Terrain? (Empire, Tilea, Cathay, Nippon, Ind, Arabia all that terrain is similar to the real worlds terrain) ... Undead Terrain... Elven terrain (or maybe just lump them in with the Civilized Terrain..), Dwarves well lump them into the Civilized terrain, Chaos Dwarves in Nasty terrain... Ogres with Greenskins... etc Lizardmen with Amazons

The difference between Human terrain all over the world is minimal a forest is still a forest similar to a forest on our world... generally.. a nasty terrain is a gothic parody of what our world forests are like... Elven forests are creepy, trees that can speak (what happened to the Elven lumber trade? :lol:).. Orcs tend to Orcify there terrain its still recognizable to our terrain just full of Orcs... Undead terrain is dead, Khemri deserts would be similar to Sylvanian deserts if Sylvania was a desert country all the better to keep skeletons together... The Southlands and Lustria are a fair bit nastier than our Rainforests but there still similar

National limits on Units

This a complex task ahead of me... for a number of reasons.. there are a number of parameters im working on

Known Limits::

These are limi