Settings:
Leader - Kublai Khan
Map - Tilted Axis Massive Continents (All other settings random)
Size - Small
Difficulty - Monarch or Emperor
Opponents - 4

Variant:
- All victory conditions except domination are enabled, but we must win by conquest.
- At one point or another in the game, all 4 AI civ's must be at friendly relations with us. This doesnt mean all 4 at the same time, just that each must be at friendly relations before we betray them like the rabid dog's we truly are.

Roster:
Qwack
Kodii
Swiss Pauli
Blake
Liquidated
dsplaited

Starting location:
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/88/civ4screenshot0141tx6.th.jpg (http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0141tx6.jpg)

And settings:
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/8443/civ4screenshot0139jg0.th.jpg (http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0139jg0.jpg)

Any thoughts on initial moves? Im leaning towards animal husbandry + worker first. We may have horses in our radius and even if we dont, the worker can build roads while we research some other worker tech's.

I'm good with a worker and AH.

What should be our plan for this game? Perhaps we should get all our enemies to Friendly first, then wipe them all out. It might not be a good idea to focus on one AI at a time.

Also, an easy way to get the enemy to Friendly, and quickly, is to have the religion card. Should we found our own religion, then spread it to the world? Or should we hope that one comes to us, then spread that religion?

We need to be careful to avoid filling our cities with religions. To a certain extent we can take new religions through conquest, and pray for AI missionaries, but on the whole we need to avoid spreading a single unified religion through our empire.

Here are our sources of relation:
1) Demands. By far the easiest source of relationship is "inane demands" since they have no diplomatic negatives with others. Coughing up techs is a way to get fair-trade without suffering "You traded with our worst enemy". GIFT
2) Civic Bonus. Probably actually one of the eaiest to manipulate since there's no downsides to getting the civic bonus other than not being able to run better civics (or the case where one civ likes Rep and another HRule) : CIVIC.
3) Mutual Military Struggle. Once we are friendly with someone, we can declare war on them and invite everyone else to join in. We want to avoid killing them ourselves because we want them to live for ages for lots of MMS.
4) Religion. This must be used with great care, because it usually means someone else wont like us... just as important is the religions the AI chooses to run - we may not want them friendly with each other because that would make it harder to get MMS. Note that some leaders like Mansa Musa are easily bribed into a religion even if they have one of their own. FAITH. The HEATHEN penalty being the counterpart.
5) General trade. This can have the large downside of you traded With Our worst Enemy - The WOE penalty.


I see there are two main approaches to take:
1) Try to make "One big happy family" where everyone is friendly with everyone else, most likely through unified FAITH. At the end we kill them all off. If this fails we could end with much WOE and might be left in a position unable to get MMS.

2) Remain relatively neutral. Avoid trading except to other neutral parties (who wont wrack up WOE), gain bonuses mainly through GIFT and CIVIC. Allow the others to get somewhat divided via HEATHEN. Once we get friendly with someone, we turn on them and start wracking up MMS. We can use FAITH at some points.


Obviously this variant would be about a million times easier with Spiritual, as I see it we're going to suffer a lot of anarchy (like giving in to literally every demand to switch). Hard is okay though.

How we play depends a lot on the others, it depends on favorite civics, how easily they get pissed, how easy they are to bribe to do various things and so on. At the moment, given our traits (poor religion prospects), I think the best way is staying very, very neutral for now - almost isolationist (so the AI's think "That guys strange! Lets try to befriend him!")

I believe we are going to need a good tech lead to manipulate the situation. I believe the best way to achieve this will be by Philo slingshot via Drama route (alphabet for more manipulation fun) - we want at some point to use a Great Scientist to lightbulb Philo. Our mid term research strategy should be along the lines of:
Alphabet, Drama, Philo
Also grabbing Literature and Mathematics

I think we should go with our first and only religion being Taoism, since we are not in a strong position to go for getting all the religions and manipulating things that way.
Pacifism is obviously an ideal civic for us since we aren't allowed to war for quite a long time, it'll help us out a lot. We could later lightbulb up the Liberalism path a bit or just settle all the GP's for stronger economy.


For the opening, AH+Worker does look good (settler first might be another good option). Also we always need to keep in mind close borders - whenever possible try to make sure there will be a 4 tile space between cities, and we must avoid over-building culture stuff in those cities.

First things first, I think AH and Worker is a sound opening.

With respect to the overarching strategy, I'd be tempted to make a Oracle grab for CoL then Lightbulb Philo with our first Great Scientist. With only 4 AIs this the Oralce shouldn't be too troublesome to get and two fairly early religions will help our manipulations greatly.

However, much depends on our neighbours, so I don't there's much to gain by debating the strategy too vigorously right now. Let's see how the land lies once Qwack gets started.

Played 20, and to keep it simple.. very interesting start. :p

First of all, we had 2 huts near our capital, but decided to let our borders pop those since borders give better results. Send scout out exploring and he reveals alot of jungle. Turn 3, both huts pop and both give us scouts..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/mittal87/Civ4ScreenShot0142.jpg

Would have preferred a tech or two, but I guess we will take it. :mischief: With our new scouts on the move, quickly meet the first 2 AI's, Monty and Napoleon :eek: :eek:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/mittal87/Civ4ScreenShot0144.jpg

Look at those borders in the minimap.. this is quite cramped. And we have to make friends out of 2 manaics right next to us? Im loving it! Animal Husbandry researched in 3560 reveals horses 3N of capital, which will be in our radius on the second border pop. Nice! roosevelt was also met and I got a hint of Saladin's borders. No contact though. Heres the surroundings:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/mittal87/Civ4ScreenShot0148.jpg

I thought this was going to be a nice little game, but with this start and these AI's, doenst look like its going to be a stroll in the park. Research-wise, I went Animal husbandry -> Agriculture -> Mining now. We need to get to Iron Working as soon as possible, everything around us in jungle.

Im thinking we should probably cut off the south by founding a city on the choke in the north. Settler at size 2 is probably a good idea here.. to quickly grab that site. I wasn't expecting it to be this cramped, but this is probably the high water level at work.

The thing im worried about is early war's between the AI's, which can cause trouble to our variant... Either saladin or monty will probably found a religion soon, lets hope that religion spreads quickly, which is possible with cities right next to eachother. Maybe add a little rule "If the AI's eliminate eachother it ain't our fault" :lol: .

I totally agree with Blake about being 'neutral'. Theres about a 95% chance monty/napoleon/saladin will be worst enemies very quickly, so we should probably not trade with either of them until later in the game. The good thing is monty and napoleon are easy to get into a war, so we can rack up those MMS modifiers eventually. I dont want to get ahead here, but right now it looks like a decent plan is getting saladin to our friend first with theocracy, then get everyone into war with him for the mutual military modifiers. Also since the AI wont have much land to work with, and we have that rich jungle in the south, we can probably get a large tech lead and manipulate the situation nicely.

save:

Heres a preliminary Dotmap:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/mittal87/Civ4ScreenShot0150.jpg

Both will close off the south, the blue dot will pick up marble if we want oracle(but may lose it if monty founds a religion).

Roster-Wise: We will do 20 turns each for the first set of turns, after which we'll settle on 10 turns each. Kodii is up now for 20...

Got it. I'll try to play some time tonight. I think I'm leaning towards the Blue Dot, especially since we're quite far from Iron Working. Lacking Iron Working leaves the Orange Dot virtually useless.

The warrior completes and I begin the settler. Mining completes and Buddhism is found in a distant land. Since none of the known AI convert, I assume it to be Saladin. In 3000 BC, borders pop again. Monty adopts Slavery, so he has BW. We connect horses and the same turn, Monty brings a settler and an archer towards Karakorum. Not. Good. The next turn, he founds Teohuacan on the Blue Dot. This is going to be a challenge.

Hinduism is found in a distant land. Nobody converts, so it must be Saladin AGAIN. Napoleon is sending a settler towards Karakorum too! :eek: Orleans is founded to the east of Karakorum. Bronze Working comes in, and we don't have copper. We wanted to block off the AI to the south, but instead, we were blocked off to the north. I decide to found our next city to the south. I was tempted to found a city in the middle of jungle to block off the rest of our jungle, but that city would have been completely unproductive. We are in quite the pickle. What do you guys think? Here is what the situation looks like right now:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b29/Kodi_87/Civ4ScreenShot0040.jpg

Save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96336/RB26_-_Rabid_Dog_BC-2400.Civ4SavedGame)

Swiss Pauli is up with 20 turns.

'King forums not behaving well and lost a whole bunch of typing. :mad:

Looks like we're getting squeezed out a bit here! Short term, I'll probably switch to Fishing in order to get Beshabilik going. Then I'll to decide between Pottery and Ironworking. We're going to need some cottages for our Philo lightbulb. I've given up on the Oracle.

For Philo, I'd go Writing => Alpha => Drama and hope to trade in Maths and Meditation, but I guess it'll be Blake or Liquidated who will be on deck at that time.

City-wise, it doesn't look great. We could try to stop Monty stealing 'our' horses, but such a city would not be so wonderful. But it might be better (medium term) than a jungle city. Maybe that little island might be worth checking out?

I had a look at the save at lunchtime...the pigs/gems/rice city will be a doozy once we get Ironworking, and it'll probably be OK beforehand (pigs/cottage). Monty's city won't threaten our horses unless (until?) it gets religion, so no pressing need for a re-inforcing city up there. Boney's city is plain weak for a good while yet.

140050

I've switched to Fishing and done some micro...

140051

I've set the governors to max food/hammers/commerce and grabbed the grassland forest for Beshbalik. I switched Beshbalik to a Chariot as it already has a garrison. After Fishing I'll switch to Slavery and rush a workboat in Karakorum. Then it's on to Pottery for cottages and only then to finish Ironworking. We'll send the worker to clear some riverside forests (in prep for cottages) once he's road-linked our two cities.

Whaddaya think?

It looks like a good plan. Lets just hope Nappy doesn't sneak another settler into our jungle.

Apologies first: I over-ran by a turn so I doubled back to the 1600BC autosave for the pics then resaved. I got a bit carried away.

Everything goes to plan for the first few turns, and I actually chop out the workboat for Besh (rather than whip it), until a barb archer appears near Besh. I've moved my Chariot down here for fog-clearing duties, but I've had some rotten luck lately against the barbs...and it continues :cry: (68% in my favour), forcing me into this move:

140070

Which pays off. Phew! Two turns later there's a terrible development in Teo:

140071

I also note that the square of jungle in the SE has gone...is that the outline of a barb city? At this point I decide to pump out some chariots as we'll be losing the horses and it'll be a while yet before we learn Ironworking. The chariots and one warrior make their way to the barb city (Harrapan). Here's the state of play in 1600BC:

140072

And here's our two cities. Both at happy caps but the whip anger will fade the turn they grow:

140073

140074

One turn before Ironworking...will we get that oh so precious metal?

Over to Grater/Blake for 20 turns.

Have fun!

Reflecting on my turnset, I think we might be able to turn Monty's Judaism to our advantage: he'll surely be worst enemies with Saladin and if we sign OBs and 'catch' Judaism then we can spread Taoism (assuming we get it) to Boney's capital. Ideally, we join Monty in a (for us) phony war against Sal and then also against Boney, though we may have to bribe him to attack. Then, assuming this brings Monty to Friendly, we go Taoist and attack him...

Reflecting on my research, I think I could have switched back to 100% science a bit earlier and maybe shaved a turn or two off Ironworking.

grrr man what in tarnations, just saw this thread. Not sure how my subsciption to the rb thread poofed , anyway I'm making sure I get this thread subed lol.

let me read the damage so far I'm assuming this is vanilla civ right? Only been playing warlords recently, so gonna miss trebs :cry:

ok let me get this straight, we are on a normal (um sure) tilted axis and all 5 civs are crammed on the same continent???

there must be another mass of land somewhere with no body but the barbs there right? We must not neglect our navy here then as we must find the other land before the other civs do.

Cheers!
-Liq

Titled axis/massive continents/small is basically a pangaea with the poles switched around. I think it's also a pangaea on standard size too, but could be mistaken. When you go up to large you get more than one continent.

1) Demands. By far the easiest source of relationship is "inane demands" since they have no diplomatic negatives with others. Coughing up techs is a way to get fair-trade without suffering "You traded with our worst enemy".

Is this really the case? :confused: Never head that before.

ok let me get this straight, we are on a normal (um sure) tilted axis and all 5 civs are crammed on the same continent??? [...]
there must be another mass of land somewhere with no body but the barbs there right? We must not neglect our navy here then as we must find the other land before the other civs do. -Liq
Welcome aboard!

It's a small world (as you might note from the crowding we're getting already) and we've got to win by conquest, so we need to keep an eye that the AI doesn't escape our clutches by sailing off to new lands.

Is this really the case? :confused: Never head that before.
Yes. The only diplomacy downside would be if you've never traded with the requester before and they're someones worst enemy.

Turn 0:
Start devising devious plan things.

How dare we be aggressive with no barracks?!!!

Turn 1:
We have plenty of Iron

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/7074/ironzi8.jpg
A screenshot showing where it is would probably be useful, but check out this close in of an Iron Mine! I've never noticed before that you can actually see the cobblestones in the roads, they've always been squiggles on the map to me.

Also I use imageshack for the images. Quite often I notice these banner ads for matchmaking services, invariably they feature an unaturally hot woman, and I mean invariably. Apparently this matchmaking service doesn't attempt to advertise to females so the population of it would be about 97% men, but if it was for gay guys they should use picture of unaturally hot men...
My posts are usually so insightful!

1400BC:
Nappy wounded one of the archers so I decide to attack the barb city, with our 1 warrior and 4 chariots.
We win and only lose the warrior.
1 Chariot withdrew.

1360BC:
Stonehenge is built somewhere.
I whip a granary into Beshbalik, this'll be followed by whipping a worker, bringing it down to size 1. Life is cruel. At least under my rule.

1160BC:
Monty sneaking a settler in but is DENIED by my hastily founded city. I think I would've founded on the plains hill - but there was no time, I had to whip the settler out.
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9195/deniedbv7.jpg

1120BC:
Monts completes the Oracle. I wanted to build that.

1080BC:
Jewism spreads to us!

And Roosey the Rooster has become Buddhist.

Stuff happened...

Mosty I cranked out some more workers and got to improving our new barb city.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9370/overviewrm5.jpg

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84705/RB26-RabidDogBC-0875.Civ4SavedGame

I've tagged two sites for possible cities. Napoleons city is gone - it'll probably flip to us when our borders expand, it'll have to be disbanded because it'll antagonize monty. As such "flipper" isn't quite as cramped as it looks.
Since we have no expansion prospects, founding "Crapper" would also be okay.

Mostly we want to get a few more workers (I think I trained 3 in my turnset) and start replacing that jungle with tracts of cottage.

Research is set to Alphabet but that could be changed to Sailing.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84705/RB26-RabidDogBC-0875.Civ4SavedGame

I think we should get Flipper founded soon and I'd stick with Alphabet. Also think we should get a library in Kara ASAP as we're not gonna push back Teo's borders any further.

I'd have to revise my ideas about getting involved with wars: that -3 DoW penalty hurts a lot. Refused to help in war time is -1 and eventually fades.

Well this is very odd.

This is the first time I've fired up vanilla since installing warlords when it came out. Warlords started fine but vanilla gives me the dreaded .exe error... with the memory addresses.

uh hmm gonna reinstall.

well I'm too tired to try and figure this out now. I posted on tech board here so hopefully someone knows what the heck is going on.... this is the message I get.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/liquidated/civ_error.jpg

uninstalled every and reinstalled 5 times now, nothing changes other than civ cannot see my civ cd at times.

I'll know by tomorrow if I need a skip... sorry.

Cheers!
-Liq

Hmmmm...not good. Doesn't sound like a copy-protection problem. Maybe a defrag would help, but I think you need more competent advice than mine!

Well after effing with all this for 4 hours I'm back at square -1

Civ refuses to start, giving me that exe error as soon as the game starts. REinstalls no matter get the same error with warlords, without, patched not patched etc adnasium no cd bypass exes.

Warlords installed and plays 100% fine.:confused:

-1 because I have to reinstall blue marble again.. am addicted to my amber ui.

For now just skip me please :( as I don't want to hold this exciting sg up, assuming Dsplaited is ready to go in 24.

Cheers!
-Liq'd

I will try to play my turns this evening. I will check this forum before I play though, so if you get your problems fixed, you can go ahead and let me know that you will be taking your turn, Liquidated.

Also, my name is dsplaisted :)

Also, my name is dsplaisted :)

:blush:

Hehe sorry, to be honest, I literally cut and pasted from the first post. I blame Qwack! My name has nothing to do with Liquids yet people tend to call me that :) Know the feeling.

Just got back home to mess with civ vanilla but just play. I'll be trashed after fixing it no doubt. Why on earth warlords plays fine but not vanilla.... boggle.

Cheers!
-Liq

My turns are complete, but I will have to wait till tomorrow to do a write-up.

And Liquidated, I saw that my name was spelled wrong in the initial post too. I just didn't get around to posting about it earlier :)

Daniel

I give up on trying to get civ vanilla running for tonight.

This so frustrating. Why on earth can I run warlords but not vanilla?

Ok I'm all good to go. Highly annoyed, but good to go. I'll take next up if that's fine, consider it swapping turns with dsp.

Cheers!
-Liq

Ok I'm all good to go. Highly annoyed, but good to go. I'll take next up if that's fine, consider it swapping turns with dsp.
No worries. What was the problem?

Sorry for the delay in posting my turns. For now it will have to be without pictures, but I might edit them in later. Also, I decided to just post the notes I took while playing the game. Hopefully they're not too verbose and boring.

Turn 0 – 875 BC (380 turns left)
Set science to 0% (We are breaking even at 60%, and I will get a library built in Karakorum after the worker finishes, so it makes sense to run at 100% once the library is built. I dial up Monty and offer him Fish for clams. We are trading away one health resource for another, but this will give us diplomatic bonuses for him.

Turn 1 – 850 BC (379 turns left)
Start Gems mine near Harrapan. This will alleviate our happiness issues.

Turn 2 – 825 BC (378 turns left)
Taking a cue from Grater, I whip out a Granary in Harappan.

Turn 3 – 800 BC (377 turns left)
Gems Mine is finished in Harrapan. Beshbalik is a bit less unhappy. Micro Harappan to work rice instead of Gems, for now.

Turn 4 – 775 BC (376 turns left)
Worker finishes in Karakorum. Start Library, as was suggested. Work boat finishes in Beshbalik. I start a settler. Workers are sent to clear jungle, and to build roads and cottages.

Turn 5 – 750 BC (375 turns left)
Meet Saladin. I offer him open borders, and he accepts. Hopefully this will boost our relations with him. When I say goodbye to him I get the message that Hinduism has spread to our lands. So that was how he contacted us.

Turn 6 – 725 BC (374 turns left)
Whip weariness wears off in Karakorum and Beshbalik. I switch Beshbalik to a work boat so that it will grow in two turns. When it does, I will be able to whip the settler. Micro Karakorum.

Turn 7 – 700 BC (373 turns left)
Not a whole lot happens. Karakorum grows. We have enough cash to research alphabet at full speed now, but I’d rather wait till the library comes online to turn on research. I notice that Turfan has no garrison, so I send a chariot from Karakorum.

Turn 8 – 675 BC (372 turns left)
Beshbalik grows and is now unhealthy and unhappy. I switch production back to the settler and whip it for 3 population. Also, I can now whip the library in Karakorum for 2 population, which I do. Hopefully that is the right choice, it seems like it to me. With that done, I turn research back on. A granary is also whippable in Turfan, so I whip it.

Turn 9 – 650 BC (371 turns left)
Finish Library in Karakorum. I don’t really know what I want to build, so I start a work boat. Besbalik and Turfan finish a settler and a granary, and I start both on a Library.

Turn 10 – 625 BC (370 turns left)
The city of Flipper is founded and starts work on a Granary. Harappan grows into unhappiness. Whipping a Library takes care of that, and I give the Rice tile to Flipper.

Turn 11 – 600 BC (369 turns left)
Library built in Harappan. Start work boat.

Turn 12 – 575 BC (368 turns left)
Monty comes asking for open borders, and I agree. Work boat finished in Karakorum, start Jewish Temple. Since Monty has so nicely agreed to open borders, I send a chariot to do some scouting. Saladin will give us Corn for our Pigs. That is actually beneficial to us, since with a granary we get extra health from corn.

Turn 13 – 550 BC (367 turns left)
I have a second Iron hooked up. Roosevelt is the only person who needs it, but he doesn’t have anything to trade for it. I gift it to him for the relations bonus anyway.

Turn 14 – 525 BC (366 turns left)
Montezuma has declared war on Saladin!

Turn 15 – 500 BC (365 turns left)
Judaism has spread in Beshbalik. Najran has been captured by the Aztec empire. Beshbalik is unhappy so I switch production to a Jewish Temple.

Turn 16 – 475 BC (364 turns left)
Finish Alphabet research. I set research to Code of Laws for now. Roosevelt has some juicy techs that I want. Saladin and Montezuma both are at –4 relations with him due to differences in religion, but they are more pissed off with each other right now so I think it is safe to trade with him without incurring “You traded with our worst enemy!” penalties. I am able to trade him Iron working, Polytheism, and Pottery for Mathematics and Archery (426 for 524 beakers)

Since we have Mathematics now, I set research to Currency, but I turn off research so the next person can decide. I like Currency then Code of Laws, and trading for Monarchy (which will alleviate our happiness problems).

Turn 17 – 450 BC (363 turns left)
Work boat finishes in Harappan. Start worker.

Turn 18 – 425 BC (362 turns left)
Saladin invites me to join him in wiping out the Aztecs. I politely tell him that I have to befriend them first. Monty comes demanding Pottery, which I happily give to him. This gives us a +1 modifier with him. Judaism has spread to Flipper.

Turn 19 – 400 BC (361 turns left)
Saladin demands I convert to Hinduism. I think I have to agree, because refusing might give me a permanent negative modifier with him, but agreeing won’t give me a permanent negative with Monty. Saladin is willing to give me Meditation and Sailing for Mathematics, but I avoid it because it would piss Monty off. Confucianism has been founded in a distant land. I sign open borders with Napoleon so that our work boat can enter his borders.

Turn 20 – 375 BC (360 turns left)
Nothing very interesting happens.

The situation as I see it:
Our economy is starting to take off. I built some libraries and cottages during my turnset. I think our biggest challenges are going to be juggling the diplomatic modifiers to get everyone friendly with us eventually, and dealing with our relatively small territory. I set up resource deals with Montezuma, Saladin, and Roosevelt. Hopefully they will start to appreciate the years we have supplied them with resources.

Hopefully no one will demand we cancel deals with someone else. If they do, what is the correct choice? Both choices lead to a diplomatic negative. Are both negatives permanent? If so, we might actually want to cancel our deals with Montezuma and Saladin so that they can’t ask us to cancel deals.

There is a chariot in the north that has scouted out Montezuma and Saladin’s territory, and should now head east. If he finds any unclaimed land, we might want to whip out a settler and try to found another city there. We would get hit with a lot of distance upkeep, but courthouses are not far off and we could really use more territory.

We are at the bottom of the power graph, and Monty is now annoyed with us due to religious differences. So we should probably build some military units. If Monty does end up declaring on us, we could toke Teotihuacan without any permanent diplomatic penalties, I believe. This is not against the letter of the variant rules, at least.

Karakorum will grow into unhappiness in two turns, and will finish a temple in 3. It may be possible to micro so that these will occur on the same turn. After that it should probably build a few military units. Harappan is currently building a worker. Going with the “Great Scientist Cradle” marker, we might want to assign a scientist specialist or two there.

I think Currency is a solid choice to research next. After that, we could go for Metal Casting for the Colossus, and then Literature for the Great Library. If we do get the Colossus, then a city on the Crapper site will be somewhat less crappy.

And here's the save. Liquidated will play 20 turns, and from then on we will play 10 turns each.

Good move on switching to hinduism I would say. I think moving forward and trying to get saladin to friendly first would be a good approach, especially since his favourite civic comes sooner than any other(Theocracy).

We should switch out of hinduism soon though, even if it costs an extra turn of anarchy. Liquidated, had any luck with getting your game to work? If not, just post something and ill play.

I'm fine, seems my civ cd is no longer readable to the game. The game didn;t seem to want to tell me outright that was the reason......

Tech forum on cfc is heaven sent btw.

got it will not get to turns tonight though as I just got back from work and work is in 8 hours lol.

A Question...

If I'm asked to cancel deals with someone is that lose lose or is there a way to avoid a permanent minus?

Cheers!
-Liq

I think Currency is a solid choice to research next. After that, we could go for Metal Casting for the Colossus, and then Literature for the Great Library. If we do get the Colossus, then a city on the Crapper site will be somewhat less crappy.
I think this would be a wrong move; we need Taoism way more than Currency, so we should switch to Drama, assign two scientists in Harrapan and hope they pop a GS in time to lightbulb Philosophy. Then we can work on generating GSs and settling them in Kara whilst heading to CS.

I don't agree with wonders at this point: they're a big investment and our production is not good. Crapper will be viable once we trade in Calender (until then I'd cottage over the banana tile for a bit more gold); Calender will also unlock the incense.

Drama will let us put a cheap theatre in Flipper, too, and we might well grab the ivory over there as culture moves weakest on the diagonal, assuming Orleans flips.

Good move on switching to hinduism I would say. I think moving forward and trying to get saladin to friendly first would be a good approach, especially since his favourite civic comes sooner than any other(Theocracy).

We should switch out of hinduism soon though, even if it costs an extra turn of anarchy. Liquidated, had any luck with getting your game to work? If not, just post something and ill play.

Not sure about trying to get Sal to friendly yet: we need to break out of our enclave and Monty's in our way, so I'd suggest getting into his good books (Judaism, phony war with Sal) then stab him in the back. Getting Sal to friendly would require us to run Hinduism and that will surely lead to a Monty/Boney dogpile on us.

I think this would be a wrong move; we need Taoism way more than Currency, so we should switch to Drama, assign two scientists in Harrapan and hope they pop a GS in time to lightbulb Philosophy. Then we can work on generating GSs and settling them in Kara whilst heading to CS.

I don't agree with wonders at this point: they're a big investment and our production is not good. Crapper will be viable once we trade in Calender (until then I'd cottage over the banana tile for a bit more gold); Calender will also unlock the incense.

Drama will let us put a cheap theatre in Flipper, too, and we might well grab the ivory over there as culture moves weakest on the diagonal, assuming Orleans flips.

What's so important about Taoism? We already have 2 religions. Are we trying to deny the AIs from getting it or what?

I don't know if Orleans is going to flip. Neither our capital nor Flipper are putting pressure on the actual tile that Orleans is on yet, and it has culture now.

so I'd suggest getting into his good books (Judaism, phony war with Sal) then stab him in the back. Getting Sal to friendly would require us to run Hinduism and that will surely lead to a Monty/Boney dogpile on us.

But remember, we need to get every AI to freindly, including saladin, so phony war is out of the books IMO. Favourite civic + peace is a automatic around +6 relations after a decent bit of turns, with the fair trade that should be enough to get to friendly. We need to get one AI to friendly and then start a phony war for the MMS modifiers, like Blake mentioned in his initial analysis.

What's so important about Taoism? We already have 2 religions. Are we trying to deny the AIs from getting it or what?
To quote Grater/Blake:
'Pacifism is obviously an ideal civic for us since we aren't allowed to war for quite a long time, it'll help us out a lot. We could later lightbulb up the Liberalism path a bit or just settle all the GP's for stronger economy.'

Not only that but it's 1100 beakers of finest trade fodder: aside from being a pre-req for Liberalism, it adds very little value to the AI because they can't work Pacifism properly.

Finally, the AI adores Currency so we can trade it in without much of a problem: our empire is so compact that our maintenence worries are quite small.
I don't know if Orleans is going to flip. Neither our capital nor Flipper are putting pressure on the actual tile that Orleans is on yet, and it has culture now.
Well Boney has founded Confucianism, so if he flips to it then we'll be able to pressure Jewish Orleans on the next border bumps.

But remember, we need to get every AI to freindly, including saladin, so phony war is out of the books IMO. Favourite civic + peace is a automatic around +6 relations after a decent bit of turns, with the fair trade that should be enough to get to friendly. We need to get one AI to friendly and then start a phony war for the MMS modifiers, like Blake mentioned in his initial analysis.
I've agonized about phony war: I think I've made one post saying 'yes' and another 'no'. But I think we can do it with a keen 'religionist' like Sal, and I'll outline why and how below.

I see our plan of attack as being Monty first (he's boxing us in, he's aggressive and he's doing a bit too well). Then Boney (who we want to help us in destroying Monty) because he's aggressive. Roosy's quite easy to please and I'm sure he'd be happy to get in on a dogpile, so he can go third, with Saladin last because of the war we'll fight against him with Monty. The -3 penalty is tough, but once we've established a tech lead and destroyed the other civs then we can get a +4 trade modifier without much fear. Then a switch to his religion which will get us +6 fairly quickly. I wouldn't be surprised to have him as an ally in our war against Monty. Add this MMS to civics bonus and we're friendly, despite our war against him.

Like much else in CIV, the first stage is often the toughest: if we can get Monty to friendly then I think we're in business.

preturn: I'm going to go for Metal casting as we can use the hammers. Place science at 80 for -4 gold a turn. Looking like 13ish turns... Calendar would get us bananas and incence hooked up so I'll look out to trade for that.

well let me see what wrath the whip can bring....
Beshbalik is unhappy at 6 population and a jewish temple is 15 turns away... it has the food from the fish tile so whip the temple for 3 population and put automation on commerce since it's good food. Harappan is still +1 angry from the whip so spare it... it's amking a worker which is good.
Make it so Kara's temple builds in 2 grows in 5... will tweak food once temple is built.

A worker is removing jungle on the marked irrigation path, want a cottage that lives past civil laws so move him.

Notice the cows at kara are not hooked up, will correct that.

IBT: saladin comes looking for free math... I agree. Sally is a funny guy btw about that fee business.
]wow I missed a before relations but we a got a +$ trade +1 tribute and +2 sisters of the faith er brothers.

Monty, who is annoyed with us ends our clam deal...well was considering ending them soon anyway. I must beef up defenses now, an annoyed monty is merely waiting to blow up.


[1]350 BC
Beshbalik finished temple from under the whip and grows to 4 in one turn =) A library was queued but I insert a barracks in 10 now. It'll be pumping out archers as fast as it can by mid turn. It's cottage grew into a Hamlet btw.

[2]325 BC
Kara finished temple goes for archer in 2.

sign open borders with FDR so can sneak past east.

IBT:Monty asks us to help with his war against sally, um no thanks..

[4]250 BC
Seems lots of land open in the NE... switch kara to seetlers to run em over. Cows are hooked up!!!





[7]175 bc Scout fishing boats hit ice on the east coast so I disband both.

harappan caught judaism and is 6/5 unhappy. Whip a barracks for a single population. I want to be able to pump out garrison 1 defense at a whim.

IBT: Saladin and monty sign peace, need archers bad as monty is no longer tied up.

[8]150 AD
:sleep:


[9]125 BC Find a nice loaction in the NE lets see if I have time to bum rush it.

[10]100 BC
Metal casting comes in, I hit code of laes in 7ish in case we nab that NE town. lost the chariot

IBT: monty ends open borders so you know war is about to break out...


[12]50 BC
I whip temple in harappan for 2 population. This place has so much food.

with monty closed borders no chance at NE. will finish the settler as it's nice to have one floating about.

:sleep:

IBT: nappy asks us to convert to judaism.. um sure was looking for a reason.

[14]0 AD
Archers rolling off the assembly line.

[18]100 AD
Code of laws comes in and I go for sailing in 1 turn, can use light houses in most of our towns and it's req for calendar.

gonna stop here at an even turn.

I didn;t see a trade that really stood out but sally has machinery now.

I didn;t manage too much progress but I boosted our military quite a bit and didn;t pull any serious diplo hits.

Beshbalik is all set to whip something, a forge would be nice. The stuff in the queue I inherited from prior turnsets.

IMO monty is gonna attack us sooner rather than later best to be prepared. Machinery would net us x bows which would help alot.

It's a rough work week for me so screens take a back seat to playing and posting.

Cheers!
-Liq

Hi Guys, I think we should agree on a long term approach before starting the second round of turns. I've not played an SG before, but we seem to be suffering from a lack of direction in our play. Examples include 0 GPP by 100AD and not trading peaceful techs like CoL for backfill techs.

Even though I think we'll miss out on Taoism, we should start on some GS points (Harrapan), light Philo (if the AI beats us he won't trade it), go Pacifist and churn out some GSs (from Beshbalik, too).

Now that we're Jewish, we should make some tech trades with Sal and Roosy: it won't be long before Monty and Boney come banging on our door to cancel trade with their respective worst enemy.

Post-Philo, I'd advocate going to CS to build a tech lead then trade in Feudalism and Machinery, using stuff like CoL, Philo and CS as collateral. Thereafter we switch to the warmonger's way: Guilds, Engineering, Gunpowder and Chemistry. A detour to Paper would be worthwhile: if we get a GS to pop at the right time, he can light Education for us, leaving us to grab Chemistry with Liberalism.

Obviously, this is only one of many possibilities and I like to hear what everyone has to say on the way forward.

I agree with swiss Pauli here. We need to have some sort of plan moving forward in terms of who we want to war with first and who to get to friendly first. Ill play this tommorow.

I think getting sally to friendly first then using him as a springboard to get monty and nappy to friendly would work if I recall correctly. I got him to deep pleased just agreeing to give him tech.

Cheers!
-Liq

I havent checked the save yet but ill post my thoughts once I do so.

I think getting sally to friendly first then using him as a springboard to get monty and nappy to friendly would work if I recall correctly. I got him to deep pleased just agreeing to give him tech.
Cheers!
-Liq
I'd avoid going this route: we'd need to adopt Hinduism to get friendly with Sal. That would rile Monty and Boney and I sure don't want to get dogpiled by those two.

Checked save. I dont understand how we got those "You have traded with our worst enemy" modifiers, I thought we planned to go neutral and only do things which wont piss anyone off :sad: .

I dont think monty will declare on us, especially since saladin is his worst enemy, as long as we keep a decent army we should be fine I think. I still feel Saladin first to friendly is easier, because monty and napoleon are both easy to bribe into war and both get +5 MMS modifiers, which is huge. Also saladins fav civic comes first, and we dont have any close borders with him. We may have to adopt hinduism to get him to friendly, but only for a little while, probably not enough to annoy monty or napoleon.

Other than that, our economy looks nice :goodjob: . We should be able to maintain a decent tech lead even without trading.

I think it was during my turnset that we got a "You have traded with our worst enemy" modifier with Saladin. This may have been the fish for clams deal I made with Monty before we even met Saladin, or it may have been because I agreed to open borders with Monty afterwards. Does having open borders qualify as trading to give the diplomatic penalty?

I agree that we should probably go after Saladin first. Of course, Monty might end up attacking us before then. We might be able to turn that to our advantage though if we can manage to take a city or two from him, since we won't get any negative modifiers if he declares on us.

So what's the plan of attack? Saladin first? I'm not convinced that would be a good move. If we keep his cities we'll get more close borders problems (Monty) and maintenence woes. If we raze cities then Monty is likely to move in with his own settlers and thereby get more powerful. Finally, I guess we'd attack him through Monty's lands which I find somewhat exploitative, seeing as he'll have closed borders with Sal.

In any event, I think it would be a good idea to send a chariot out scouting into Monty's territory to get a better idea of the lay of land.

Blake would know more about this, but I believe to bribe Saladin into a war you need to be friendly with him, so it wont be easy getting him into a war with monty/napoleon. I dont think we plan to keep cities, especially not in the short run. The war will basically be used to pile up MMS modifiers with monty and napoleon so we want the war to go on as long as possible.. Anyways, sorry for the delay, ill play this tonight for sure.

Turns complete. Start off by checking the tech situation. Saladin has machinery in 100 AD, pretty impressive for an AI on monarch level. Everything else is basically what you expect...

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/8159/civ4screenshot0011gg3.th.jpg (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0011gg3.jpg)

Did alot of infrastructure whipping over the turnset, I was surprised to see all of our cities with no whip penalty, with so much surplus food and weak production we should crack that whip :whipped: I also whipped forges in a few cities since we have a metal for +1 happiness.

Sailing research in 150 AD, I set research onto calender for the banana and incense. I also set Harrapan to produce a GS.

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/5690/civ4screenshot0014uy2.th.jpg (http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0014uy2.jpg)

Monty and napoleon both come with deals, which I decline each time. On my last turn, Roosevelt comes with an offer of currency plus gold for metal casting, after checking relations, I decline that also. Heres what I have gathered from constant clickage:

Saladin's worst enemy is Monty
Monty's wost enemy is Roosevelt
Napoleons worst enemy is Roosevelt
Roosevelt's worst enemy is Napoleon

So the only person its currently safe to trade with is Saladin, who unfortunately is already the tech leader and strongest AI. Ill let the next player decide if we want to give up alphabet/CoL to saladin to pick up some techs. Research is currently on literature which is coming in 1 turn, after which I think we should head towards theology/theocracy.

Also, now that the banana is hooked up, we can probably found crapper and let beshbalik + crapper share the fish/banana. Once again, the decision about this belongs to next player :D. We have a settler waiting in Karokorum to use for this task.. The GS thats coming up, should probably be burned on philosophy I think(Which is possible after researching meditation).

I guess thats me. I'll see what I can do later.

Turns complete. Start off by checking the tech situation. Saladin has machinery in 100 AD, pretty impressive for an AI on monarch level.
Could Sal have hutted Machinery from some little island...it's so not him to grab that tech early?!?

Okay, here we go:

Literature comes in, and I finish Meditation in preparation for using the GS. Meditation comes in a turn later, and a GE is born somewhere in Arabia. The next turn, Sally builds the Colossus. Taoism is founded in Boston :(

540 AD, Monty declares war on Sally! :eek: I do not know how we should get involved in this war, so I leave it be for now. Socrates is born in Harappan the same turn, and I use it on Philosophy. I revolt to Pacifism. 600 AD, Tlatelolco is captured by Sally.

Ok...it is the beginning of my last turn, and Sally has asked me to join him in the war against Monty... what do you guys think?

it's all a no win situation imo.

If we get involved in a war without first getting friendly with the victem, what chance do we have of ever getting back to good terms later?

Meh hard to play this variant with such psycho killers next door. :)

Cheers!
-Liq

Ok...it is the beginning of my last turn, and Sally has asked me to join him in the war against Monty... what do you guys think?
If Monty and Boney are still Jewish then no. In fact, what's the state of our army? Assuming we don't have any catapults, I'd say no in any event - we might struggle to see off a pillage stack.

I'd be more tempted to agree to a request from Monty to join in.

-1 for you didnt help us during wartime is better than -3 and -1 for you declared war on us and "You declared on our friend". I would say decline all requests to join war.

Didnt help during wartime also decays eventually I believe.

Ok. I declined and then founded Crapper. Here is the save:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96336/RB26_-_Rabid_Dog_AD-0620.Civ4SavedGame

T0 - Check stuff and see that we're still gifting Iron to Roosy. Not any more. OBs with Sal.
T1 - Boney demands Literature. Bien sur, mon ami. I reckon Sal is Roosy's worst enemy so I sell Boney Meditation for 80g
T2 - No diplo hit from the trade, so I now swap Philo for Monarchy, Currency and 10g
T3 - Cancel Corn/Pig trade with Sal
T4 - Decline Roosy's trade offer. Note Monty's Jumbos.
T5 - Theocracy complete. Decide on CS next as we've already put 200+ beakers to it and I hope to trade it to Boney for Feudalism (which I expect him to get soon).
T6 - Nothing of note
T7 - Monty demands Theocracy. Damn you, but take it anyway. He's now pleased with us. He also completes Chichen Itza.
T8 - Sal closes borders.
T9 - Boney demands that we cancel all deals (i.e. OBs) with Roosy. Bye, bye, FDR.
T10 - I note that Boney's completed CS. Oh well, maybe we can get Feudalism from Monty.

Blake up next.

Inherited turn:
Didn't do terribly much, just assessed the situation.

Turn 1:
I disband the chariot trapped in the north. Sorry bud, but you were costing gpt.
Homer was born in Paris.

Turn 2:
Civil Service in.
I switch to BigB adding HRule as a freebie.

Next tech = Nationalism in 18 turns. (for eventual representation and buddying up with Nappy)

Turn 3:
Well the interturn was spent putting out fires so not much really happened.

Turn 4:

Turn 5:
Two great people born this turn. Monty got the music artist a couple turns ago.


Turn 6:
A great scientist is finally born.
I decide that an Academy in our capital would be the best use. Alternative is paper. It'd take 40 turns for the academy to equal the beakers, since our current tech is 18 turns i think we can safely say the Academy will pay off in just a few techs...

Turn 6:
Monts adopts theocracy.
People rejoice as the irrigation chain to the rice is complete.

Turn 7:
I decide to farm over the grassland river forest our military is fortified on. Our capital could use the extra food.
I also farm over some cottages in the empire.

Turn 8:

Turn 9:
I tweak the tiles allocated to various cities.
Tip:
Any city can grow a cottage... a city running BigB with an Academy doen't grow cottages any faster.
So you should always give fully developed towns to the capital and let lesser cities do the developing, at least to any extent possible.

Karak has 2 unhealthiness so I 1-pop whip the aquaduct - we don't want to aggressively whip cities which can grow and work more cottages, but it's okay if it's for needed health structures. In Besh I queue up an aquaduct.

Turn 10:
A galley is about to complete. Use it to put a city on that island. Since I'm apparently in charge of naming our cities and any name is used, however terrible (I'm so sorry, people of crapper!) I have provided a suitable name.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4348/tnamedcrappervn0.jpg

I think it's better to found on the forest plain because on the hill only brings in more ocean and nothing else, ocean is useless. The grassland forest is more useful as either a mine (to build granary and lighthouse) or windmill.


Because I have obsessive compulsive screenshot posting disorder but nothing interesting actually happened, here's some random screenshots of our friends:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/3200/iamawesomeii2.jpg
Whoose a pwetty wittle emperor! youse are! oh yes youse are!


http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7545/greenstuffrc5.jpg
I swear there's like green stuff in Saladin's mouth.


http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5499/terroristsarewefz8.jpg
I'm sure we'll get the hang of this diplomacy thing eventually.


Um yeah...

The Save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84705/RB26_-_Rabid_Dog_AD-1010.Civ4SavedGame)

Nationalism? Not sure that I see the benefits, as opposed to heading direct to Liberalism. Can you clarify for me, as I reckon I'm missing a trick here. Cheers.

Well mainly it's sicne Liberalism does not provide us any benefits beyond that of the free tech...

Free Religion? No. We need the religion bonus.
Free Speec? No. It sucks for us (cultural opression)
Universities? Not really, they'll take ages to build since we have crap for production and aren't philo. Oxfords is even longer again. No stone. Crap cities.
Map trading? So what?

Denial of the Free Tech? Trust me, our neighbours with the possible exception of Roosey are NOT going to launch, they are going to squabble and fight until the end of time. The only thing we need a tech lead for is so our neighbours have something to bully out of us.


Also none of our neighbours have a personality profile that supports a beeline to Liberalism, while there is a large random factor involved some AI's - such as Gandhi, really like Liberalism a lot more. Roosevelt is the only leader remotely likely to go for it but his flavors are low Gold and High Production (ie he puts a high emphasize on production techs and a lower emphasis on gold).

Paper is a science, and low gold/culture/religion tech.
Education is a high science, mid culture, low religion tech.
Liberalism itself is a high science, high culture tech.

The alternative line, Banking:
Feudalism is high Military, Production, low culture.
Machinery is Extreme Production, high military, mid science, low gold
Guilds is high production, mid military, low gold, low culture.
Banking is Extreme Gold, low Production.

As you can see FDR sees a lot more of his favorite things in the Banking line (and the AI does indeed look more deeply into the tech tree than just 1 tech), he's pretty much forced to head to Banking by his AI profile.

So overall I say we can safely afford to use Liberalism on Constitution, or even something deeper. If we get attacked nationhood will be pretty freaking useful since we have crap production and poor gold multipliers (in short, emergency upgrades are expensive).

Also in terms of grand strategy...

I think we just need to play it cool. Accept any reasonable demand and only reject the genuinely unreasonable ones (the ones with no net diplomatic gain), avoid ALL trades, unless absolutely certain the tradee is not anyones worse enemy, give in to any extortion without question (it's like a penalty free trade!).

Run representation to befriend Nappy, or Universal Suffrage to befriend Roosey (I'd prefer rep for the happy and science). We can run Police State to befriend Monty or Theology to befriend Sally.
Actually looking at it Nappy is pretty close to being friendly, once some of that WOE penalty fades he should be easily bought up to friendly by refreshing the "Fair trades" bonus, we may not actually need rep, after all we have +2 because he's a demanding dick and he gets quite good relations from religion plus no close borders.

Perhaps we should look instead to befriending Roosey ASAP, since once he gets Free Religion that'll be harder. That would involve using Liberalism to grab Democracy. We could run US/Theo and pump out an army. Saladin and Roosey are after all going to be the harder ones to befriend due to the worse-enemy-trading and rejections of war requests and stuff... I think both Monty and Nappy will be befriended naturally quite soon.

Re: Nationhood now. I don't see from your reply that there's any benefit to getting Nationhood now. However, my post wasn't that clear: what I should have written is to propose teching to 1 turn of Liberalism then reconsidering our strategic options at that stage.

I think both Monty and Nappy will be befriended naturally quite soon.
I think you're probably right here which makes Nationalism less important. I'd like to get to a position where we can be poised to grab a military advantage from Liberalism so we can start on the long road of betrayals that will seal our victory.

This would mean being within grabbing distance of Rifling or Chemistry. Then finish off Nationalism for the (potential) happy and drafting.

I suppose that's the thing. I know the AI's so well that I don't even consider the possibility that one of those lot will go to liberalism. The chance of losing liberalism is pruned from my decision making process.

Also in the back of my mind is that nationalism is great trade/demand fodder - and if they demand it they wont be closer to liberalism (the closer the AI is to a "first gets a bonus" tech, the more likely they'll smell out the bonus and pursue it).

Had a quick look at the save and I can see we'll get either a GE (55%) or a GS next. If it's a GE I'd suggest speed building the Great Library in Harrapan for more GSs and continuing with Nationalism til it's done. If it's a GS then go the Paper-Education route. What do you all think?

Also, I think we should build a Hindu Monastery in Turfan - we'll want to spam ourselves with Hindu for cuddling up to Sal.

It seems that whenever I check this thread, there is always a burst of discussion :lol:

I think that everything you guys have suggested looks good. I don't have anything to add. How close are we to befriending Monty and Nappy?

Diplo status at end of Blake's turns: both Monty and Boney have no trade plusses, so that's definitely an area to work on. Can their worst enemy 'see' their trades when the two are at war?

Got this little tidbit from Lil Brother: Monty is STILL only Pleased, at +12 relations so it looks like we have some way to go yet!

Diplo status at end of Blake's turns: both Monty and Boney have no trade plusses, so that's definitely an area to work on. Can their worst enemy 'see' their trades when the two are at war?
IMPORTANT:
You can get the full trade plus bonus (which is really just the amount of stuff we've gifted) at any time at all, the idea is to passively build up bonuses, then when they are near friendly, we push them over the edge to friendly with a gift of tech.
The "fair" trade bonus fades quickly and there's no point at all in maintaining it permamently.

The question is, how near is Boney (net +7) to friendly? Would some tech bribery be enough to tip him over the edge (and thus allow us to start making nice with FDR)?

I think you can trade without penalty when worst enemies are at war. Not sure whether one gift can trigger a plus 4 bonus, especially as we could do with some backfill techs.

man this grater/blake thing keeps tripping me up. I'm up I guess lol.

Welll diplo is not my strong suit by any means so I'm reading this sg very intently indeed. A few questions...

When ramping up trade to gain the fair and foward bonus, the gift of just what nets the full bonus?

Also in this variant we need only one turn at friendly correct? We can declare war even after thir relations drop to pleased again?

Us getting saddled with monty and nappy on a small island, it's remarkable neither have us as their worst enemy, but getting them to friendly seems a rather tall order.


Cheers!
-Liq

When ramping up trade to gain the fair and foward bonus, the gift of just what nets the full bonus?
Dunno - it varies from civ to civ, but hang fire for now. Unless my theory on war fogging trades is correct, we don't want to risk a diplo hit.
Also in this variant we need only one turn at friendly correct? We can declare war even after thir relations drop to pleased again?
Yep. Once they are friendly, take a screenie and post it up. Thereafter we can forget about making nice.

Another thing to do is scout Boney's lands - he can't only have two cities. And cross fingers for a GE to grab the Great Library (I don't see us needing Sci Meth in this game).

preturn: Ok, I just spent way too much time going over the blake vs swiss discussion but have an idea how to tread.

Since I was the one to build a useless settler just as monty slammed the doors shut, I know exactly that summer home's seed is all good to go. galley next turn and the slave...er workers are running out of things to do on the mainland. Since no rush to start home tho lets chop that forest.

[1]1020 AD Capitol completes galley and I ship out settler and a worker to summer home. I start on a single turn archer to boost happy enough to spare a warrior for summer home lol.


[2]1030 AD Sally asks us to join him against Monty, sigh, I decline.

[4]1050 AD add judism to turfan.

[5]1060 AD Heron the Great Engineer is born and shuffle him over to harappan for the great library.

[6]1070 AD set up the bomb in harrapan...

[7]1080 AD And we win....
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/liquidated/rb26GLib.jpg

the monty sally war ends and they change over to peace-time civics.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/liquidated/rb26summerhome.jpg
Turfan gets 30 hammers from summerhome's grand opening and I plunk down summer home in place.

I start on a lighthouse first with 30 hammers coming from a chop right away. Have a jewish missonary about to pop for its culture bounce.

[8]1090 AD
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/liquidated/rb26-nationalism.jpg
Nationalism comes in and I start paper in 4.

[9]1100 AD Rushing Archers and cats to the various towns that will need the happy.

[10]1110 AD Well top 5 towns can use some achers for happy, Crapper can be whipped again soon to finish granary and summer home is off and limping! Had the worker fleet on that island to chop/road/mine the hill and a missonary is all set to convert Summer to monty's favored religion.

That poor galley just sat there and acted as a highway.

Leave you with a nice view, National epic maybe?
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/liquidated/Happening.jpg
Yup, that's a !00% pure Scientist pool there.

Cheers!
-Liq

dsplaisted, your up!

I see it. I will play it tonight (I think!).

[0] 1110 AD (289 turns left)
Move a chariot from our stack of units to Flipper for MP duty. Trade coast tile for mined hill in Crapper. Start Taj Mahal in Karakorum. It will take 36 turns, and Saladin and Monty both have Nationalism. The extra cash wouldn’t hurt us either though.

On the whole, things don’t look very good. We are only at +5 relations with Napolean and Montezuma. We are cramped for territory but we can’t get any more until we get someone to friendly. The best plan seems to be to aim for Constitution to get Representation which will give us a favorite civic bonus with Napolean.

Inbetween turns, Saladin urges us to convert to Hinduism. I agree. I will probably convert back in 5 turns. Yay for anarchy!

[1] 1120 AD
Monty is now annoyed with us, due to the faith switch. Jewish missionary converts Summer Home.

Inbetween turns, Monty cancels open borders. Uh oh.

[2] 1130 AD
Shuffle a chariot down to Harappan to keep it happy.

[3] 1140 AD
Paper comes in. I’m not really sure if we should go for Constitution or Education. I’m leaning towards constitution since it will open up a relations booster with Napolean. So I choose Constitution, but I drop science to 0% to postpone the decision. Napolean has started a Golden age.

[4] 1150 AD
The workers have nothing to do so I put them to sleep in Karakorum.

Inbetween turns, Saladin offers open borders. I decline because I don’t want to piss off the other civs any more.

[5] 1160 AD
Finish Aqueduct in Turfan. Start archer for MP duty. Beshbalik grew into unhappiness. I whip it’s aqueduct (which was due in 67 turns) for two population.

Inbetween turns, Saladin offers Music and 50 gold for Philosophy. No thanks.

[6] 1170 AD
Whipped Aqueduct completes in Beshbalik. Build an archer with the overflow hammers. Finish Lighthouse in Summer Home. Start on Granary. It seems more optimal to continue working the mined hill instead of growing slightly faster and then whipping. I also double-whip a granary in Crapper.

[7] 1180 AD
Convert back to Judaism. Yay for anarchy.

[8] 1190 AD
Nothing much happens.

In between turns, Saladin demands Philosophy. Well, if you insist…

[9] 1200 AD
I turn research to 100%.

I think someone took 11 turns by accident, because the game shows that there are 280 turns left. So, I will stop here.

Most of what I did during my turnset was shuffling military units around to keep the cities happy. Turfan has decent production and is producing units. Karakorum also has decent production but is tied up producing the Taj Mahal, due in 29 turns. We might want to start spreading Hinduism around so that we don’t lose happiness and especially GPP generation when we are asked to switch to Hinduism.

Napolean is pleased with us at +6 relations. Hopefully when we get Constitution (9 turns) we will be able to get him to friendly by switching to Representation and then destroy him like the rabid dogs that we are! Of course we might need some modern military units to do so. Maybe we can research our way towards liberalism and a slingshot to Military tradition for cavalry. Of course we might need some horses for that to work. The advisor screen says that Roosevelt is willing to trade us horses. However, he refuses to talk to us even though he’s pleased!?!? Could that mean he’s going to declare war?

Good move on constitution imo. By no means a clear cut ya or nay but your reasoning is 100% solid. :)

I made sure to hammer home judaism into all our towns during my turnset. As for Hinduism, I built a hindu monestary for converting our towns to both faiths... We will be flopping back and forth between faiths, so might as well get the happy each 4 turns =p.

Seriously monty is going to really be a @#$%@# to get to friendly... not sure how we'll pull it off without some serious worst-enemy butt kicking.:eek:

Cheers!
-Liq

Another thing I thought of, we need to stop building military units. In fact, it was probably a mistake to build them on my turn. With Pacifism they are each costing us 2 gold per turn I believe. We have a big stack sitting right on Monty's border that we can use for Military Police duty. Furthermore, we're going to lose the Military Police happiness bonus when we switch to Representation anyway. So pump out Hindu missionaries and temples instead!

Napolean is pleased with us at +6 relations. Hopefully when we get Constitution (9 turns) we will be able to get him to friendly by switching to Representation and then destroy him like the rabid dogs that we are!
We'd need to gift him Constitution because the Civics bonus only applies if he's running Rep (I think).
Of course we might need some modern military units to do so. Maybe we can research our way towards liberalism and a slingshot to Military tradition for cavalry. Of course we might need some horses for that to work. The advisor screen says that Roosevelt is willing to trade us horses. However, he refuses to talk to us even though he’s pleased!?!? Could that mean he’s going to declare war?
FDR's in a huff cos I cancelled OBs on Boney's demand. I think it'd be better to sling to Chemistry, so as we're not reliant on another civ for our military.

[0] 1110 AD (289 turns left)
Start Taj Mahal in Karakorum. It will take 36 turns, and Saladin and Monty both have Nationalism. The extra cash wouldn’t hurt us either though.
I've taken a look at the save, I think you read the tech situation wrongly here: Monty lacks Philo so he can't have Nationalism and I'd assume Sally is working on CS which will unlock Nationalism for him.

Also, I noted the outline of Boney's offshore settlement. Can we get a boat out from Flipper to check it out?

On the research front, we have a GS due in 1 turn which I suggest we burn on most of Education whilst we continue to Constitution. What do you guys think?

I've taken a look at the save, I think you read the tech situation wrongly here: Monty lacks Philo so he can't have Nationalism and I'd assume Sally is working on CS which will unlock Nationalism for him.

Also, I noted the outline of Boney's offshore settlement. Can we get a boat out from Flipper to check it out?

On the research front, we have a GS due in 1 turn which I suggest we burn on most of Education whilst we continue to Constitution. What do you guys think?

Oops, duh! I thought that since I couldn't trade nationalism to them that they already had it! :crazyeye: :smoke: Good thing I started the Taj Mahal anyway.

Burning the GS on education sounds like a good idea to me.

I agree with burning GS on education as well. Makes diving for Con almost lossless in that the delay in education will be handled by lamping it.

This variant is going to be seriously difficult with the leaders we got stuck with.:)


Cheers!
-Liq

It will be a great challenge to befriend Monty. Those in Big Brother had a hard time reaching Friendly, and still haven't not been able to maintain it.

It will be a great challenge to befriend Monty. Those in Big Brother had a hard time reaching Friendly, and still haven't not been able to maintain it.

Well, I think they have aggressive AI turned on and we don't. Apparently there is a hidden relations penalty when that option is turned on.

It will be a great challenge to befriend Monty. Those in Big Brother had a hard time reaching Friendly, and still haven't not been able to maintain it.
We've got an advantage in that we don't have to maintain relations and also because we're not sharing our discoveries with anyone so we can give in to demands for techs and reap the diplo benefits.

thinking about it, this is the one time we would have really loved to see izzy. Flop over to her religion then dog pile her as she is everyone elses' worst enemy :lol:

Cheers!
-Liq

It's Qwack's turn! :)

Good thing I started the Taj Mahal anyway.
Not sure about Taj. Can someone run the the numbers of the GA output versus the hammers needed? Our empire is so...er...compact that I'm not convinced it'll pay out for us. I think a Uni in the capital would probably be a better investment.

Not sure about Taj. Can someone run the the numbers of the GA output versus the hammers needed? Our empire is so...er...compact that I'm not convinced it'll pay out for us. I think a Uni in the capital would probably be a better investment.

Well, we can't build a university until we have Education. We could switch to building a university when Education does come in, or we could finish the Taj Mahal and use the golden age to build the university. The Taj Mahal will finish in 29 turns, and I think we will have education in around 10-15 turns, depending on how much of it the GS knocks out.

It's Qwack's turn! :)

It is? :mischief:

Ill play tonight hopefully, if not tommorow.

Turns complete.

Saladin hates monty. Roosevelt hates napoleon. Napoleon hates Saladin. Monty hates Roosevelt. :cool: :lol:

We have 5 workers doing a whole load of nothing. Urge to disband... must resist :p

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/1789/civ4screenshot0000yy7.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0000yy7.jpg)

BTW, im surprised at how much flipping flipper has done thus far. Roosevelt comes to us in 1250 asking for open borders.
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/3188/civ4screenshot0004ll5.th.jpg (http://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0004ll5.jpg)

Oh? So you want to talk now? Declined. He comes back a turn later...
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/167/civ4screenshot0005qb6.th.jpg (http://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0005qb6.jpg)

Hmm... let me think.. No. In 1290, Constitution in. I automatically switch to representation. And thats about it, I was building mostly catupults in our cities instead of axeman and swordsman since catupults will be useful forever :p . Our happiness has taken a hit by switching out of heriditary rule, although our research has gone up a bit.

Monty will apparantly declare war on napoleon if the price is right. We can get napoleon to friendly by getting +1 civic bonus and gifting him tech's for +4 fair trade. I would say... Get monty involved in a war with napoleon ASAP so we can start piling up the mutual military modifiers with him, waste some turns while monty and napoleon both destroy eachothers armies, take napoleons cities, and then with around +4 MMS modifiers with monty, go after him. Anyways, I like dsplaisted's idea about the cavalry, so Ive set research on Music for now. We have a scientist idle which can be used to pop education. I think Roosevelt is probably going to have to wait for his turn to be betrayed until the end..

Save:

Saladin hates monty. Roosevelt hates napoleon. Napoleon hates Saladin. Monty hates Roosevelt. My bold. If this is true then we maybe can afford to make nice with Roosy as he's no-one's worst enemy.

Monty will apparantly declare war on napoleon if the price is right. We can get napoleon to friendly by getting +1 civic bonus and gifting him tech's for +4 fair trade. I would say... Get monty involved in a war with napoleon ASAP so we can start piling up the mutual military modifiers with him, waste some turns while monty and napoleon both destroy each others armies, take napoleons cities, and then with around +4 MMS modifiers with monty, go after him.
I mostly agree with this, except that Boney has some offshore cities, so we should take Orleans and Paris and only then get Monty invloved, especially as Boney will likely switch to Confucianism once we take Paris (he discovered it), thus lowering the bribe price and also avoiding a pillage-o-rama of our new territory.

Anyways, I like dsplaisted's idea about the cavalry, so Ive set research on Music for now.
I'm not so keen on this unless we can secure horses before attacking.

I think I'm next, so I've got it. I'll wait to see if we have anything further to discuss.

My bold. If this is true then we maybe can afford to make nice with Roosy as he's no-one's worst enemy.

Monty hates Roosevelt.

Am I missing something here? :)

I mostly agree with this, except that Boney has some offshore cities, so we should take Orleans and Paris and only then get Monty invloved, especially as Boney will likely switch to Confucianism once we take Paris (he discovered it), thus lowering the bribe price and also avoiding a pillage-o-rama of our new territory.

Ah good point. This sounds better then getting monty involved from the start. It shouldnt take us much time to take orleans and paris anyways.

Am I missing something here? :)
I missed the bit about Monty and Roosy, but surely Saladin is Monty's worst enemy?

Well I took a look at the save and Roosy WON'T trade us horses, so I'd strongly advise switching research with the aim to grab Chemistry with Liberalism, then we can beat on Boney with Grenadiers (and go onto Steel).

I may need a skip. Swiss, if you can get to the game before me (which you probably can), go ahead and skip me. Thanks! :)

Next time I can play is tomorrow evening, CET, so if I you can't make it until Thursday, I'll pick it up.

That was pretty dull until Monty declared on Sally in 1400. I traded Philo to Monty at that point (no penalty with Sally: was and still is -1 WOE).

Other than that, Boney wants a flogging for crimes against city placement on his island and he got circumnavigation in 1340.

In research, I switched to Edu and burnt the GS. We're three turns away from Liberalism, but do switch away before it's done. Another GS has just been born. We could hold him to burn on Printing Press.

I have time now, so I can probably play in between. Is that okay with everybody? (If no reply in about... 15 minutes, I'll play :) )

EDIT: Swiss, could you clarify what you suggest to do with tech? If I switch away from Liberalism before its done, the GS will still lightbulb Liberalism, won't it?

EDIT2: I noticed that Medina is the holy city for three religions o_o.. what are the possibilities for that?

EDIT3: Nevermind, I don't want to play my turnset without knowing quite what to do. If the next person can get to it before I do, go ahead.

I'd aim for a Chemistry grab, so switch research in that direction when there's 1 turn left on Liberalism. I think Printing Press is above Liberalism in the Lightbulb Ladder, so we can burn the GS when Machinery is in (traded/researched).

Ah, got it. Both what you mean by the tech situation and the save. I'll see if I can sneak in my turnset now.

EDIT: Chemistry requires that we research Machinery, Engineering, Feudalism, Guilds and Gunpowder. I doubt that we'll get to Liberalism before we research all of that.

EDIT: Chemistry requires that we research Machinery, Engineering, Feudalism, Guilds and Gunpowder. I doubt that we'll get to Liberalism before we research all of that.
Not quite: Education is an alternative route to Gunpowder, so only Machinery, Engineering and Gunpowder are needed. I think you can research Machinery in 4 turns or less, and I'd reckon Monty would trade Engineering (if he has it) for Nationalism.

Not too eventful. Napoleon declared war on Roosevelt four turns into my turnset. Monty demands Paper, so I give it to him. The same turn, I trade Nationalism to him for Engineering, Feudalism and some gold. I use the GS to finish most of Printing Press, but continue my way towards Chemistry. Roosevelt wants to trade for Education, but I decline, since I am worried he might get to Liberalism before we do. He also asks for Open Borders, but I decline for the time being. In 1490 AD, Napoleon captures New York! I check the tech situation, and it looks like Napoleon and Saladin have Gunpowder. Sally fears we are becoming too advanced. On our tech situation, Gunpowder should finish in one turn. Liberalism one turn after that, to give us Chemistry. Printing Press should take only two turns to complete. Taj Mahal will finish in four turns. I'll see if I can put a screenshot up of... something.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b29/Kodi_87/Civ4ScreenShot0077.jpg

Save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96336/RB26_-_Rabid_Dog_AD-1500.Civ4SavedGame

Good stuff! Now that Boney's at war, we can trade him Nat and Const and then ask him to switch to Rep, which might well tip him into Friendly status.

Blake's up!

Gifting those techs sounds good, since that will give us both the +4 fair trade and civics bonuses. It might be worthwile to go after him ASAP and start getting some MMS modifiers with Roosevelt as well.

Um let me firstly go over the boring stuff real fast...

We use Liberalism to grab Chemistry, the right to arm grenades and throw bears or something...

And that wonder completed, but we knew that?

Now onto the non-boring stuff! I was determined that this turnset not be boring, at any cost.

First thing, lets get that french man into Representation. I figure we'll leave Roosey for last anyway and the WOE penalty will fade...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v23/ltgrater/Imageshack%20is%20Down/trade1.jpg

Here you go little emperor.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v23/ltgrater/Imageshack%20is%20Down/trade2.jpg

You know nappy I gave you Consitution so you could switch to Representation.
It's your favorite civic.
Come on.
Switch to Representation you damn french clown!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v23/ltgrater/Imageshack%20is%20Down/trade3.jpg
Much better.

Me: Hey nappy.
Me: Nappy!
Napoleon: What do YOU want?
Me: Hey nappy are you my friend!?!!!
Napoleon: Stop calling me nappy!
Me: I will if you say you're my friend!!!
Napoleon: Fine! You're my friend. Happy now?
Me: YES!
IT'S A FRIENDLY!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v23/ltgrater/Imageshack%20is%20Down/trade4.jpg

Hey Saladin I know we don't talk much, but I'd like to borrow the Aztec for something...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v23/ltgrater/Imageshack%20is%20Down/trade5.jpg

Hey Monty! I know a fun game! It's called "Lets backstab our friend!"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v23/ltgrater/Imageshack%20is%20Down/trade6.jpg
I knew you'd like it!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v23/ltgrater/Imageshack%20is%20Down/trade7.jpg
Hi Rooster! Yes I'd love to declare war on the french! Thanks for asking!
[Well that didn't take long...]

And thus our first friend is properly betrayed!


We get to Economics first!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v23/ltgrater/Imageshack%20is%20Down/trade8.jpg
It should be kinda obvious where he is going. Like how I scouted out the route with those lazy workers?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v23/ltgrater/Imageshack%20is%20Down/trade9.jpg
The french city falls, with the loss of like 1 catapult... Against Grenades they didn't have much chance.

Btw I deliberated on this city. If we take it, then we get close borders with Monty. But If Monty takes it, he gets massive close borders with us. Thus we need to that city. Not that it'll take long to get Monty to friendly anyway...

KACHING!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v23/ltgrater/Imageshack%20is%20Down/trade10.jpg

Oh damn it's that Arab!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v23/ltgrater/Imageshack%20is%20Down/trade11.jpg
Me: No Saladin! We don't like them enough!
Saladin: Whaat??? Don't you mean you don't like us enough???
Me: No you idiot! We don't like them enough to betray them!!!
Saladin: What the hell man? What's wrong with you?
Me: GO AWAY GO AWAY GO AWAY SMELLY ARAB! COME BACK WHEN WE LIKE THEM BETTER!



And that was something like 10 turns...

Basically the next tech is Democracy. Once we have it we should switch to Universal Suffrage + Theocracy. We could probably switch to Merchantalism too since pretty much everyone else is running it. I traded Cows for Gold(resource) from Rooster, he still has some Silks we could get, at the expense of another health resource. Happiness/health will be tight but it's not like we're in a hurry to go anywhere. We have some Ivory too, or will once Monty finally falls victim to us, for now his culture is too strong for our ex-french city to claim it.

Monty should hit friendly soon. I don't think there's any need to act on that, other than that any demand involving doing unpleasent things to him will be humored. What I'm hoping is that Napoleons little offshore island will stay alive for a long time so he can be our whipping boy for as long as it takes.

I think Sally should be fairly easy to befriend since he gets fairly high bonuses. After that it's pretty much a matter of hoping Rooster gets to friendly before he launches a spaceship. We'll probably want to get him running Free Religion since I think we'll be running Hindu for ages to suck up to Sally.

Btw the next turns might be a bit slow since really we want nappy to die as slowly as possible which means we wont be doing much.... pretty much twiddling our thumbs. We might want to go to 15 turns/set.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84705/RB26_-_Rabid_Dog_AD-1550.Civ4SavedGame

Yay!!!!!

You got your name back Blake, grats!!!![party]

preturn: Well blake got all the fun if cajoling nappy for friendly could be considered fun. well My goal is simply to get us out of the upcoming revolt rofl... if anything actually happens I'll be sure to take copious screen shots!
paris is looking highly tempting tho... =)

Democracy in 4
send in an axe to scout how monty is doing briefly.

Gained 5 million people in 1555, wuu wuu.

Paris has alot of units, all outdated.

must admit, this is the first time I've seen worker scouts....

Ohh france gets a great engineer in 1560 and we get a great scientist from the farm that is harappan. he's pointing to scientific but well harappan itself is pumping out 67 beakers@100% a turn which makes an academy worthwhile

3 knights and a musket are all I can see of monty's troops... seems he is just pillaging. actually correction, looks like nappy has no more improvements to pillage. GG monty!

When democracy comes in I go for steel for cannon and iron works not to mention on the way to rail roads.

Revolt to universal sufferage + mercantile + theocracy as per blake's suggestion. 2 turns!!! and golden age ended start of my set.

oh hmm in 1590, monty took out New York... wasn't that an American town at some point? :) guess monty is doing something.

on 1600 monty's war bonus hit +3 bringing relations to +13 -3 = +10 gifting him a tech like printing press will nail +4 relations but hold off until mutual war to hit +4 itself, monty is really tough to get to friendly, need at least +12 prolly +13 or 14.
To stress, no one ended their war with nappy.

boring turns, least the workers had a bit to do.

Screens later... not sure what all screens to post, I'll find something.

Most entertainment was seeing monty strip nappy of every mainland road. :lol:

Cheers!
-Liq

Cool. Happy backstabbing everyone!

Those were some quick turnsets. Looks like we're going in a good direction. :)

dsplaisted is up next.

Seems you need +13 or +14 to get to friendly with monty, +12 alone isn;t gonna cut it. imo job one should be to focus on monty to get him to friendly so we can knock his feathered hat off.

Cheers!
-Liq

Good job Blake and Liquidated! I see it and will play it tonight or tomorrow night.

I have not had a chance to play my turns yet. I would like to play them and will try to do so tonight, but if you guys want to keep things moving I don't have a problem with you skipping or swapping me.

Fine by me so long as you march on Paris!

Turn 0 – 1600 AD – 230 turns left
Micro Karakorum to finish Colosseum in 1 turn. Switch Summer Home to work the mined hill, and start working on a forge instead of a university. The forge will let us have an engineer instead of a citizen for our free specialist, which will increase our hammer output by 50% if we’re not working the hill. I’m not sure why we’re not marching on Paris, Swiss Pauli has told me to do so. J I move out and get a look at Paris’s defenses. We should be able to take it once the defenses our down. Switch Crapperd from Courthouse (no hammers invested) to Aqueduct, it’s already at 2 unhealthiness.

Inbetween turns, Napolean asks for peace. No thanks.

Turn 1 – 1605 AD
Send some more Grenadiers towards Paris. Start cottaging over a farm 1S of Flipper. Trade Fish to Montezuma for Clam. It is no net gain or loss for us but hopefully we will get a diplomatic bonus for it eventually. Start Hindu temple in Karakorum. Statue of Liberty was available, but it will take 46 turns to build. Seems like the better path is to build Ironworks first.

Inbetween turns, I had accidently left a chariot all by itself on a hill outside Paris. A musketeer comes and kills it.

Turn 2 – 1610 AD
Upgrade a Grenadier to Pinch / Combat II, and out the musketeer that killed my chariot. I think it was a good trade. My workers finish replacing the farm with a cottage and I realize that I just cut off the lines of irrigation. Oops. I start replacing the farm.

Turn 3 – 1615 AD
Farm replacement finishes. I am now outside of Paris. The bombardment starts next turn. Unfortunately, Napolean now has a grenadier on defense. I only have 2 healthy grenadiers so I could lose some units if he decides to attack. I think that’s unlkikely though.

Inbetween turns, Napolean attacks with his Grenadier. He wins with 32.4% odds. L

Turn 4 – 1620 AD
Bombard Paris to 32 % defenses. Karakorum finishes up Temple. Switch it to research for one turn, next turn I will start Ironworks there.

Turn 5 – 1625 AD
Finish steel, enter industrial era. Start Ironworks in Karakorum. Roosevelt has Replaceable parts, so I trade Liberalism (which opens up free religion for him) and constitution for Replaceable parts, his map, and 470 gold. Roosevelt is Saladin’s worst enemy I think, but Saladin is already at –4 for trading with a worst enemy and I don’t think it can get worse. Let me know if this was a mistake. Anyway, I start steam power research. A university finished in Turfan. It’s at its happy cap so I start a Jewish Temple.

I bombard the defenses in Paris down to 0%. However, I have only one healthy grenadier ready to attack. Two more will be in position next turn so I hold off.

Turn 6 – 1630 AD
Monty is bringing some troops near Paris. I’ll have to be careful not to let him capture it. I send in a suicide catapult that withdraws. I send in two more which die. I attack with three Grenadiers, which all win. This leaves 5 units defending. As far as I can tell there are 4 units Monty can attack with this turn. Plus I’m out of grenadiers to attack with. So I stop the attack for now. Start a University in Harappan.

Turn 7 – 1635 AD
Monty has moved a bunch of his troops (ok, eight of them) outside Paris. There are only 4 defenders now so I guess he attacked in between turns. So it looks like it’s now or never to take Paris. I bombard the defenses from 4% to 0% with the catapult that withdrew. I send in another suicide catapult which withdraws from the 11% odds fight. Two grenadiers attack and win. At this point my CR3 catapult has better odds (96.7%) than my remaining damaged grenadier, so he attacks and wins. And finally the damaged grenadier destroys the last wounded longbowman, and Paris is ours!

Turn 8 – 1640 AD
Napolean has made peace with Montezuma. Noooo!!! I have a bunch of workers building roads around Paris, and when it comes out of resistance they will be able to hook up the resources and improve the land.

Turn 9 – 1645 AD
Napolean is sailing two galleys around our shores, but he has no troops in them. I guess he could pillage our fish, so I move our one galley south to try to protect it.

Turn 10 – 1650 AD
Jewish temple constructed in Turfan. Start a cannon. Aqueduct finished in Crapper. Start a University.

Capturing Paris gave us The Great Lighthouse, The Hanging Gardens, The Parthenon, The Hagia Sophia, and Notre Dame. That’s +1 health and +1 happy in all of our continental cities, as well as +2 trade routes.

Steam power is due in about 5 turns unless we find a way to fund deficit research. Paris will come out of Resistance in 4 turns. It will give us cows and another iron, and eventually spices if we push culture hard enough. By that time hopefully we will have backstabbed Monty and taken Teotihuacan already though.

In another 8 turns when his peace treaty expires, we need to see if we can get Monty to declare war on Napolean again. Monty actually says he has enough on his hands now to go to war with Saladin or Roosevelt. I think that means he is planning to go to war with someone. Hopefully that is not us! In any case we should call some of our troops back from Paris to defend the home front.

Surprising that Monty did not get to Friendly with us during the 7 turns we were at war together during this set. Oh well.

Everything looks pretty good. I checked the save and WE are at +9 with monty so I think about 20 more turns of mutual military struggle will do the trick.

Capturing Paris gave us The Great Lighthouse, The Hanging Gardens, The Parthenon, The Hagia Sophia, and Notre Dame. That’s +1 health and +1 happy in all of our continental cities, as well as +2 trade routes.

Nice :thumbsup:

I believe I am up, and ill have these played either tommorow night or saturday.

PLayed 8 turns. I had thought monty was still at war with napoleon, but I guess I missed that part. My plan was to make monty declare on napoleon right when the 10 turn peace period runs out, we can gain +2 from fair trade but will +11 relations be enough to get monty to friendly?

The only action that happened over the turnset was 2 galleys from napoleon pillaging one of our fish.. I checked both saladin and monty's war situation but unfortunately both of them were "We have enough on our hands". My guess is saladin was preparing to declare on monty and monty on someone else, which would each bring forth the please help us in war requests and lower our relations more :sad: .

10 turns pass by and napoleon and monty dont cancel thier peace treaty with eachother.. wtf? Then Monty declares war on roosevelt... So what I did was send liberalism over to monty for dirt... to hopefully get us to friendly with him..

and heres the situation:
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/9776/civ4screenshot0050ta6.th.jpg (http://img82.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0050ta6.jpg)

We are still pleased at +12.. sigh.

Next player gets to decide what to do :mischief: . I think our only hope now is to trade roosevelt democracy(And adopt universal suffrage + free religion) and try to befriend him quickly enough before the first war request comes from either monty or roosevelt. We are +6 with roosevelt, if we switch religion to no state religion we are +8, and if we adopt his favourite civic it will be +9 for 10 turns and then +10 after 10 turns.

Or we can pay monty to declare peace with roosevelt and then pay him some more to war with napoleon, which will surely get us to friendly.. right?

Save:

Just bribe Monty off of Roosevelt. Such peacemaking is not subject to the usual rules of war/peace.

Roosey is closer than I thought, I don't see that we need to switch to Free Religion, we need to focus on buttering up Saladin - if we go FR we lose both Theo and Hinduism. With luck FDR will go FR for us. Even if he doesn't it's only a -2 penalty.

Got it, I'll see if I have time to play and report now.

The first thing I do is bribe Monty to make peace with Roosevelt, change some civics and give us 150 gold for Liberalism and Democracy. He is kind enough to declare war on Napoleon without anything in return.

Rifling comes in, and unsure of which direction to head in, I begin Railroad.

And the moment of truth has arrived...

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b29/Kodi_87/Civ4ScreenShot0053.jpg

So I decide to stop here, though my turnset was severely cut short. Do we want to backstab Monty now? Or should we wait and build up military a bit more?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96336/RB26_-_Rabid_Dog_AD-1725.Civ4SavedGame

[party] :band: [party]

:cheers:

finally one of the -1 dropped and monty is a go.

A minor miracle to have gotten monty to friendly like ever hahahaha. I need to look at the save to see what all we should have to steam roll monty.



Cheers!
-Liq

Excellent. I'd say raze Boney's remaining cities and send settlers over there to found new cities in better spots (pigs/fish and whale/fish/horse). But I've not looked at a save in while.

Kodii - why not carry on and finish your turns. Monty's in the bag now, so there's no pressing need to DoW him until we feel ready.

Nice, friendly Monty at last. The important thing is to begin sucking up to Saladin (switch religion). There's no need to immediately declare war on Monty, just give him a very cold shoulder.

If Kodi doesn't post between now and 8am CET, I'll play my turns tomorrow morning.

Go ahead and take it, I'm probably too busy to finish off the turnset before the weekend.

Excellent. I'd say raze Boney's remaining cities and send settlers over there to found new cities in better spots (pigs/fish and whale/fish/horse).
I played a quick 10 and that's my plan. Not got time for much of a report, but here goes.
0 - Switch to Astro so that we can get safely to St Helena.
1 - IW in Kara which has some severe health and happy problems...
4 - Monty adopts Emancipation. Ouch!
6 - Lose caravel at 96% wins odds:crazyeye:
8 - Astro learnt and switch to RR at 60% (we might want to switch to Mil Trad once we get St Helena's horses). Oxford in Kara. Trade Pig for Dyes with Rooster.
9 - Galleons!

There's a settler at Flipper and one one the way in Harrapan. We trained some cannons as well and built/whipped some infrastructure.
EDIT: I forgot to cancel a goto on a Galleon sailing round the coast from west to east. Sorry. Blake's up.

Mesaup already?

Okay.

Turn 0. WHY ARE WE NOT HINDU? I switch to Hinduism immediately.

Turn 1. Fires burn..

Turn 2. Okay Time to ship some units to take out France.
And what's this? Monty has made peace with Napoleon.

Turn 3. I delete a bunch of warriors and archers to free up the gold. Shipping more units to Little France.
I check out diplomacy and Monty can be bribed onto FDR but is afraid of Saladin's military might... maybe that means Monty wont declare war on Saladin... it'll be up to Saladin to declare war on Monty. FDR can be easily bribed onto Monty, but it's Saladin we need to be sucking up to.

Turn 4.
Saladin demands we stop trading with the vile Aztec. Your wish is my command, mighty Saladin.
Monty calls up and demands we stop trading with the vile Americans (note: this is one of those quirks were Monty's call was in the queue after Saladin so the no talking thing doesn't count yet). I laugh in his face and tell him to go easy on the messenger about to arrive at his altar.
I start the Heroic Epic in Paris since it'll only take 7 turns and Paris has rocking production.

Turn 5. Nappy upgrades to Riflemen in the interturn. Fiddlesticks.

Turn 6. Rheims falls. I didn't raze it. It has nice infrastructure. The other city will get razed though.

Turn 7. Anger from emancipation and stuff is starting to bite. 10% culture.

Turn 8. Railroad in. That means Machine Gunners, w00t.
Also it turns out we can still talk to Monty. Looks like the messenger never arrived...
I gift him 1gpt, hopefully that'll count as another deal which can be demanded to be canceled.

Turn 9. Not all that much happened, mostly just railroading stuff and moving forces to take the last French city.

Turn 10. Bombarded the defenses of the french city. Built railroads and put two workers on a galleon to railroad up Paris.
Traded Pigs to Saladin for Corn.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9252/woofnr1.jpg

On the Agenda:
The french Riflemen are multiplying like rabbits, there are 5 in Lyons now and it's on a hill, you might want to deliver another boat load of units. Then again their levels are horrible so sacrificing the pults might be enough.

Both Saladin and Monty have enough on their hands. Probably planning to backstab each other. That would be an interesting dance.

Both of our trade partners are now in Free Market so we might want to switch to Emancipation + Free Market.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84705/RB26_-_Rabid_Dog_AD-1812.Civ4SavedGame

Mesaup already?
Turn 0. WHY ARE WE NOT HINDU? I switch to Hinduism immediately.

Didn't want Monty to do anything rash while I was preparing for Boney's funeral. And I fixed the save linky:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84705/RB26_-_Rabid_Dog_AD-1812.Civ4SavedGame

EDIT: Liq's up.

I'll do my best to hit tuns tonight.. got it and all!

a few hours later...

ug I have to sleep asap seeing as I get home only to hit more work in 7 hours and well this has just been a bad week. honestly just swap me out as I'll be clear Monday. really rather not rush my turn and report etc

Cheers!
-Liq

Well it's Sunday night, and I can't play it before tomorrow night anyway. So if you can take your turns tomorrow night, go ahead and do it.

I'll get it when I wake up.. need sleep right now though. Sorry for the delay, been brutal.

Cheers!
-Liq

Ok so looks like mop up nappy to get him out of the way. Lyons placement really blows as it rules out both fish and whales from ever being used. Problem is it's the confused Shrine.

So honestly look at this and tell me raze lyons as I so really want to and re-settle at blue dot. If people have a thing against burning down shrines we could keep it and hobble that entire island for the sake of a shrine. I personally vote to raze lyons.

I did one turn and switched to free market and emance btw.

the screens....
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/liquidated/rb26-1812raze.jpg

and the close up for visual buildings.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/liquidated/rb26-1812lyonscloseup.jpg

Cheers!
-Liq

I say raze it. Confucianism didn't really catch on, so it's no big loss.

ok so no hidden diplo hit patched in since 1.0 on razing shrines? Just not in the habit of blowing up mosques and all in m