We must spread the word of free love!

Intelligance

Batrachos (BAT (www.Civfr.com))
Leader - Huyana Capac (Inca) - (Aggressive and Financial)

Contact - dgciv4 AT civfr DOT com

Previous Reputation
BAT is a French Civ site. In round one of the CivIII ISDG, they were chosen over GWT by the big dogs in the game to take to round two. GWT complained that BAT was a bad ally. If we meet them early on, an alliance seems possible.

Current Reputation
They are very willing to be cooperative at this point. Current plans are to exchange Alpha with IW with us working on the lower tech tree.

Additional Notes
BAT upto 3000 BC
Scout (free from hut)
2 Quechua (1 free at start)
Workboat


Evolution Games (EVG (www.evo-games.net))
Leader - Mansa Musa (Mali) - (Spiritual and Financial)

Previous Reputation
EVG is the site where the UN is hosted at. They have a small team, including Strider, a common CFCer, and MRex who was our contact in the CivIII MSDG. I forgot the team, but we had a very successful alliance. I imagine them being completely honorable allies should we form an alliance with them. Strider also angers easy.

Current Reputation
In contact with COG


Civilization Brazil (CBR (www.civbrasil.com))
Leader - Montezuma (Aggressive and Spiritual)

Known Member List
None at this time

Previous Reputation
CBR is the treacherous Brazilian team. Guilty of having a president spy on CFC's team. Strong amount of caution is urged when interacting with them.

Current Reputation
Right now they are stand offish to COG.

Additional notes
Due to projected map locations it may be possible that they are in cahoots with GCA.


German Webring Team (GWT (www.civforum.de))
Leader - Qin (China) - (Industrious and Financial)

Previous Reputation
Winners of the Multi-Site Demogame (MSDG - The PTW ISDG), and are quite excellent players, at least with Civ III. They also keep their word. Another excellent candidate for an ally.

Additional Notes
GWT upto 2720 BC
4 warriors (1 free at start)
Worker


Civilized Online Gaming Community (COG (www.civilized.invisionzone.com))
Leader
Frederick (Germany)

Previous Reputation
New to ISDG - No Reputation

Current Reputation
Recent turn of events show they are willing to peruse alliance.

Additional Notes
I suggest investigating a "perminent" BAT-CFC-COG alliance after assessing how well they play. They are about ready to build their second city.
Warrior
3 Scout (free at start)
Archer
Settler

Gamecatcher Alliance (GCA (www.gamecatcher.net))
Yellow Destiny
Leader - Kublai Khan (Mongolia) - (Aggressive and Creative)

Current Member List
None at this time

Previous Repuation
Invade early in both CivIII MSDG and ISDG. They'd love to humiliate either ACS, CDZ, CFC, or CGN, and ACS, CDZ, and CGN aren't in their game. If we start near them, their aggressive, gambling nature guarantees an attack, which means we'll need a military.

Current Reputation
After inital contact there have been no further communication.

Additional Notes
I suggest preparation for defensive and offensive action with this team.
3 Scout (1 free at start)
Warrior (free from hut)
Worker


Summery
The last three teams move on to the finals, which means we need two good allies. At this time an alliance with BAT is most likely. COG can be another candidate but we should keep our eyes on them. GCA is very worrisome at the moment. I would like intel on the location of their cities. Actually, I would like intel on the location of all their cities and possible offensive and defensive actions.


Relationship Chart
Outdated at the moment.
http://www.croxis.net/DYOS/relationship.jpg

GWT has been spotted. Sending email!

Hello and good tidings! After a lonely travel our warrior is happy to finally see another person! We hope your journey has been fruitful. We look forward to further contact with your decorated team and a prosperous future for both of us. Please feel free to contact me with this email address or at croxis@gmail.com

croxis
Foreign Minister

Great! Although we need to update BAT. Perhaps after we discover agriculture, we can throw together a little note presenting the two.

I was figuring the same. I intentionally did not want to tell BAT right away, I would like to see GWT response first.

Good thinking.

Response from BAT

Hi !

It’s Nice to have some news. For our part, after fighting with lions, we try to have more friendly relation with animals… we are searching for animal husbandry, on the way to alphabet, but it will still take some time.

The scout Lud is now next to the copper, we have now some discussions between going to the east, and after south or directly south (but I think we would be very quickly at your frontier, so please inform us for the best way to COG, I think we need too much time to have writing). By the way did you contact COG ?

Abukhir from the BAT

It late and I can't remember what our last message was to them. Should we go to border violation or is there another way to go about getting COG and BAT to meet? I'm going to hold off telling BAT about GWT for maybe a turn or two to wait a response.

Should we go to border violation or is there another way to go about getting COG and BAT to meet?

I think having BAT declare war just so they can cross our border would be an exploit as it produces an illogical result, if that's what you were referring to. Now BAT has to rely on us as the trade middleman, and we can pretend that we wish we could do something about it.

Also there is no need to be in such a hurry to form a three way alliance. BAT may be a good to trade with but they are weak and we don't know where they are. Other teams may be located more conveniently but simply sent scouts down the wrong path and so we contacted them latter.

This is true, and we do know where BAT (supposedly) is because they did give us directions.

No word from GWT yet

GWT responds to our call for free love!

Greetings to Croxis, ambassador of Thunderfall!

After his long journey, our warrior Polly is also very glad to meet a delegate of a foreign kingdom in this treacherous and dangerous maze.

Our King Siegfried, the peaceful and victorious, almost almighty Master and ruler of all land that belongs to our nation wants to tell your King that he is most pleased to make this acquaintance. He wishes to express his hopes that our relationship may be peaceful and profitable for both our nations.

King Siegfried wants to know if your ruler is interested in exchanging information that might be of mutual interest.

Maybe we can also warn each other about barbarians and wild animals.

Feel free to contact me at bratscher@gmx-topmail.de. Please send all mails also to my co-ambassador JeWnS at dekoderism@gmx.de.

Best greetings,

Bratscher, ambassador of the Nibelungen (GWT)

so erm what does he want me to do now??? :D

we going to organise a 'hello' msn chat?

I think so. Because they are in the euro timezones I'll ask what times will work best for them, and we'll try to adapt to that.

thats cool, im in a euro timezone too.

you are? anyways, I sent the email

yup, good ol U of K

And I'm in Europe too.
Their English is remarkably better than that of the French team, but that doesn't surprise me.

Isn't English derived from German?

No, both have a common ancestor!

Yes, English is classed as a Germanic language - I suppose the Saxons and even the Scandinavians (another Germanic) would've provided that influence.

I'm taking German right now. Some of the similarities are impressive when compared to French and English, mainly structural.

wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language)

Language family: Indo-European
Germanic
West Germanic
Anglo-Frisian
Anglic
English

French is Indo-European
Italic


English is a West Germanic language which developed from Old English, the language of the Anglo-Saxons. English, having its major roots in Germanic languages, derives most of its grammar from Old English. As a result of the Norman Conquest and other events in English history, it has been heavily influenced in terms of vocabulary by French and Italian.

Approximately 40% of English vocabulary is of French or Oïl language origin, most derived from, or transmitted via, the Anglo-Norman spoken by the upper classes in England for several hundred years after the Norman Conquest.


English grammar is Germanic, while the vocabulary is Italic (French).

Oh no its spam! *poke*

Anyways, just got this email from GWT which is slightly troubling me

Dear Croxis!

Many thanks for your offer regarding a team chat. But at this moment our team wants to rely on email communication for game relevant information
exchange mainly for two reason. Firstly, because we want to have the
possibility to consult with all team members. Secondly, most of us are
not native english speakers and we want to avoid misunderstandings in
this early stage of our relation.

Later on, when the amount of information to exchange will grow, we can
of course communicate via IRC.

We sincerely hope, you and your team are not disappointed.

To improve the relation between our two nations, we suggest the
exchange of the following information:
- The description of the our know world, and
- the location of out prosperous capitals.

With best regards,

Bratscher, ambassador of the Nibelungen (GWT)


I am willing to talk about the first, but for security reasons I don't want to give away the homewor.. er capital location until we have a more developed relationship. The fact that they did not volunteer the information first is also concerning. Never mind the fact that we also do the same to other, but we are special!

I am willing to talk about the first, but for security reasons I don't want to give away the homewor.. er capital location until we have a more developed relationship. The fact that they did not volunteer the information first is also concerning.
Indeed. Giving away capital information on our part should be a no go. I don't know how long we can go back and forth on e-mail and build up a relationship.

Kinda disappointing. :sad:

I wouldn't be too disapointed that they don't want to do a chat. I prefer email comunications myself.

I think we can give them a vauge response then see how forthcoming they are.

How about this:

We are located far to the east of were we made contact. It is hard to give directions on this map because the land has many twists and turns, but if you can tell us how to get our unit within sight of your border we can open trade.
Right back at 'em.

theres certainly no harm in giving away the location of our capital to our so far primary ally when our so called non primary allies have found it GCA etc.

So theres no harm in giving it away, talking about whats inside it is a completly different matter.

Hmmm... wise words, BCLG.

I wouldn't call GWT a primary ally yet, I would hope it ends up that way.

If it does end up that way we need to think about our relationship with BAT, GWT probably is not still fond of them.

for some reason i read that as BAT, regardless my point still stands, GWT could become a good ally and the fact that it is highly doubtfull we can actually explain to them where our capital is makes it even better :D

Draft for GWT:

Hello. We understand your concerns with real time chat. From our journey it looks like the world is a giant spider web. The path we came from arcs up north for half of our charted map, then many branches down. The center branch leads our our homelands.

We would be delighted to know what other nations you have encountered. We look forward to your reply


To BAT, but I would like to delay this one until we get a response back from GWT.

Greetings! We would like to give you another update on our status. We have finally started on iron working to produce stronger weapons. Also we have met GWT and are currently evaluating their friendliness. Lets us know how things are going in your part of the world.

Can you try an email GCA and see if they will reply to our emails?

Will do, once I get home

Their autobot responded that "our save or message has been received"

At least we got a response! :lol:

Hi there,

(OOC (out of character, i.e. real life) reply):
it seems our appointed ambassador anarchy is very often unavailable in vacation or something. We don't seem to be able to take a hold of him. ;)
Seriously though, we are always available via this email contact. Other meetings and exchanges have to planned in advance though, we are all pretty busy all day and night.
At this time we have not seen any immanent treaties or exchanges, thus we haven't initiated anything. If you are interested in starting talks about treaties (NAPs, 'inofficial' borders, expansion coordination, etc) or trades (common tech research strategy, exchanges, etc) we are always open to suggestions.

Concerning your messages, we received 3 messages. The (double) greetings, one introduction from your ambassador classical_hero and this one. Hope that's all.
Regards

Lucky
Gamecatcher Alliance

Well, ok, so they are there, but havent responded otherwise. I am really uncertan how we should procede at this point, if we should continue our "hostilities" or if we should investigate potetial trade options. Last score intelligance shows they are in a more weak position than we are, should we prepare to take advantage of it?

If you want peace prepare for war. I'm sure they are trying to get Keshiks so let’s work toward spearmen, continue exploring, eventually get a few ships and solidify a strong alliance. Is there something more specific you had in mind?

Pre-emption shouldn't be ruled out either. I know it's not popular but it can work.

Well, they put the ball in our court. However, by not offering any trades/treaties themselves, it obvious they don't really want a buddy-buddy relationship.

Be wary. GCA might have it out for us.

Same applies to anyone really :)

*nods* As of right now we have better relations with others. I think it is safe at this point to continue our current policy: prepare for war but do not be hostel.

It's better to have a gun and don't need it than to need a gun but don't have it.

For some reason that sounds very phallic.....

Hi!

It is very nice to see that our warriors have the same way. They seem to
be very familiar now.

We conform with your opinion, that we are lost in a spider web. If you
go to the west from the point we met your warrior you will find the
borders of our capital.

And yes, we met strangers not belonging to our nation. If you will
further follow our warrior Polly, you will find the borders of an
unknown nation. We assume that you also encountered some other nations,
didn't you?

With best regards,

Bratscher


Sounds like they are aware of BAT

lol so they've noticed there stalker.

Should we respond with something similar, i.e. where our borders are or knowing of another civ?

We probably should, although we can afford to be as vague as they are, imo, ie glimpses of a warrior.... homeland in that general direction, etc.

Hello !

News are good here, we are still on the long way to writing, and we still think to have alphabet before the 70th turn. On your side, how do you manage with iron work ?

We still don’t know what is the best way to find COG, the choice is between :
- waiting for writing and going across your country
- beginning a long trip by the north-east to try to find by ourselves
- send another unit by the south directly

the second and third solutions seem better but your opinion would be useful.

Do you have any news about other civilizations ? How are the discussions with COG ? Did you manage to eat this monsters coming from the water without being hurt ?

Hoping to have some news,

Abukhir from the BAT


Tomorrow I am going to message cog for a mutual status update, respond to GWT, and update bat and tell them we've contacted GWT. I have no opinion to the action BAT will take, do you?

Is it legal for us to allow them to declare war and move through our lands, then sign peace? Or is that just too risky for us?

I believe phony war is considered an exploit and not allowed in this game. Its good for us that they can't meet COG anyway, they've already agreed to the tech trade with no strings. Soon Writing will be ours to trade to COG.

Soon Writing will be ours to trade to COG.

Are you laughing maniacally when you type that?

Tell them they are welcome to cross our boundaries after writing, of course by the time they meet anyone, we will havedone our trading, right 1889? :cool:

tell them to cross borders later, they cant declare war to do it as thats against the rules imo.

Are you laughing maniacally when you type that?

Tell them they are welcome to cross our boundaries after writing, of course by the time they meet anyone, we will havedone our trading, right 1889? :cool:

Yes I am and that's an excellent idea.

"Gosh, we're really sorry about this but those darn mods made that silly rule. The only thing I can think of is for your scout to walk all the way back over ground you've already explored and wait on our border. Say since your going back that way would you mind exploring west of our city for us?" :lol:

They declare war..we kill their scout.

They declare war..we kill their scout.

:goodjob: You're even worse than me! :lol:

This message was fired off to GWT


It seems our warrior has taken a fancy to polly. Hopefully this is a good sign of our relations! We too have ran into other strangers that are strangly familar. Our world seems a bit more crowded than the stories of our elders lead us to believe.

Reguards
-croxis-

To BAT

Hello!

Good to hear things are progressing well. We are still working on Iron working and we hope to have it finished within 15 turns.

As for COG, we have no offical opinion on how you wish to procede except to not break our borders until we can have open borders.

On a final note we have met GWT. They have met others as well and agree that the map is a spiderweb. They are to your west it seems.

Cheers,

croxis

I suspect that they are already in contact with GWT as the GWT warrior is heading to BAT and GWT mentioned that if we follow Polly then we will encounter more stangers. Unless GWT has heard of BAT from someone else.

And last but not least, to COG

Greetings! It has been a while since our last communication. Things have been progressing well on our end. Our explorations have been fruitful and we are preparing to set out to found new villages. BAT is navigating their way to establish contact with you, but the going has been tough for them. How is your nation developing?

croxis
Fanatica Foreign Minister

pretty prompt reply from COG

Quite well actually. We've gotten bronze working, and have founded our
second city with copper very close by. Have you founded another city yet?

Well short answer =no :D

I called it!

Dear CFC

We have just met also GWT.

What do you think about the idea to make an alliance with GWT team. Such alliance could be easier to realize because we already know each other.

If you think yourselves too much engage with COG, we respect that and we will wait to meet them.

Sincerely

I'm all for changing our objectives without COG knowing it ;)

That's an interesting prospect, a BAT-GWT-CFC alliance. GWT has certainly not shut us out, so it's possible.

Was it GWT who had difficulties with BAT in a previous game?

Yes, round one of the [c3c] ISDG. Apparently GWT thought BAT lacking in the ally department.

Ok, this is very good to know as it might hinder the possibilities of a GWT - BAT - CFC alliance. I wonder if that could make a word...

well theres a vowel.....

We'll need more than one, though... :(

I don't know any of their members, but based on the civ choice BAT and GWT are both great partners for us. With two financial civs on our side we can dominate the research game, while our samurai can provide defense.

Excellent observation!

Regarding the BAT-GWT-CFC alliance:

I suggest we tell BAT that we are too committed to COG to leave them out of our considerations. That way we can avoid the alliance issue for now.

If we form such an alliance then anyone else who finds out about it will rightfully regard us as enemies.

It is too early in the game to make such a binding decision. Rather than betting on which three will win the game now, we need only be sure that four other die before us.

It seams likely that GCA will attack us sooner or later. In such an eventuality how much aid will BAT be able to offer? Bless their harts, they no doubt mean well, but they just don't have troops to spare. And how far are GWT willing to go on our behalf when we have had no meaningful communication with them? And how will we appeal to COG for aid, or at least neutrality, when we have committed ourselves to go to the finals without them?

Whomever we form the threeway with, we must keep it underwraps when talking to the non-alliance civilizations. We need to avoid making enemies that way, as 1889 pointed out.

Right now we're just speculating. It most likely will be a BAT-CFC alliance, and we'll analyze each possibility for a third partner. COG has the early start, but GWT is another good choice.

Who knows? EVG or, :rolleyes: even CBR might present better allies.

I'm counting GCA out. :p

From BAT

Hi,

Efficient discussions are difficult with this type of short messages, and we
would like to clarify the diplomatic situation (particularly with GWT and COG),
so we propose to organize a new meeting. If you agree with this idee, please
send us as soon as possible your disponibility.

Sincerily,

Abukhir from the BAT

And my response

Greetings,

As of this current time we are too committed to COG to not consider them, however we agree that a discussion is in order. We have officers available most hours and most days. I personally am most available on weekdays before 23:00 GMT. We look forward to our meeting

croxis
Fanatica Commune of Foreign Affairs

did you already send the response? if not take the bit about COG out :)

it sounds like were demanding things :)

It was sent, I was following 1889's advice

did you already send the response? if not take the bit about COG out :)

it sounds like were demanding things :)

Really? I don't think so and I hope they don't think so either. Besides when they mentioned the BAT-CFC-GWT thing they suggested that we may not be able to leave COG behind. Anyway I'd personally rather avoid the whole 3 way alliance all together until this game gets down to the final four. :evil:

that was a HUGE mistake..the part about COG. NOW we are on the outside looking in with them thinking we have choosen COG over them. NOW we have to make a long term deal with COG before they make the same offer to COG and we are left being dead.

RULE 1...NEVER give away who you are CURRENTLY WORKING WITH in any diplo discussion with any CIV. Unless it serves your purpose.

This may end up costing us dearly. Major screw up.

it isnt a major screw up and is redeemable just i wouldnt have put it in.

we're not deeling with COG however we have put BAT in the driving seat regarding the discovery of alpha-they could trade this with anyone and we just have to make sure they are aware they are our first choice partners

Sorry if it just me, but the message sounds to me like we do consider COG, think they're nice chaps and all. But that we still want to get along with BAT. Of course we're considering things, we're not morons commiting ourselves to one party. But it should be clear to them that we prefer them. (And if possible it should be clear to COG that we prefer them :p)

The discussion, to bat, was bout cog vs gwt, not cog vs bat. BAT knows about GWT and COG. Please read the forum. Don't get you panties in a knot.

GWT call themselves "Nibelungen" now, what's that? Also can our UN or FA ask them to post team information, their link goes nowhere.

Ring der Nibelungen is a famous piece of german literature

wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/nibelungen)

Dear Croxis!

Several days ago you asked us for our known contacts. At this moment we
got to know all other teams and imagine, we are really seven nations in
this world!

At the moment our nation is developing and nothing of particular
interest happened. Do you have other issues to discuss?

Ah, yes, there is one more thing. Please use the e-mail address
cfc-gwt-embassy@gmx.de for further e-mail communication. Please don't
feel irritated, I'm further the official representative of the
Nibelungen to your powerful empire.

With best regards,

Bratscher, ambassador of the Nibelungen

ten charactatureigooglebum

Why would we feel irritated? :hmm:

They know everyone? :eek: That means they have six opposing teams vying for their friendship. We need to continue our friendly relations with them if we want them as an ally possibility.

We should let them know we don't know CBR nor EVG yet. :)

Maybe it also means they are in the center and most in danger of a two front war.

Is wrapping on? We could all be in a center of a wrapped world-map, and maybe they were just lucky (unlucky?) to meet everyone already.

Its a Pangea map right? They could be in the center of the continent, or not.

It's Sirianmade, anyone could be anywhere :p

I'm pretty certain the wrapping is like any other normal [civ4] map.

Well, for instance great plains or lakes don't have wrapping, and terra and pangaea do.

OOOOO

Dear Croxis, dear thunderfalls!

Some time elapsed since our last contacts, and the Nibelungen agreed that is now time talk about some closer collaboration between our nations.

At first, it may be beneficial for both our teams to share our research efforts. It would be a waste of time if both our nations will spend their work on researching the same technologies. Maybe we can research into different directions and exchange the technologies later on.

Please tell me your opinion of this issue and if you also have more things that might interest you.

With best regards,

bratscher, ambassador of the Nibelungen.


I am down with that!

How would/could we divide the research with them (GWT)?

How would/could we divide the research with them (GWT)?

I'm sure they mean the same kind of deal we have with BAT. "You research X, we research Y and trade." This would create a de facto GWT-BAT-CFC alliance. (Unless GWT has already made this offer to someone besides BAT).

Very interesting. Why did they suddenly break the silence?

GWT plays Qin, a good civ to have on our side I think.

Is there a third branch we could send them on? The religion - monarchy path maybe?

I suppose it will be better to turn this into a three-party deal. Playing middleman is profitable but would probably make us look dishonest - not a good idea if we want to ally them for the long run. Also, this would explain to GWT why we don't want them to go on the two other branches.

Well one of us would need alphabet to trade, so we need to get BAT in the deal (unless BAT would just give us alphabet, but then it'd still be better to get them into the alliance).

So here is my question. Should we suggest to both BAT and GWT about a 3 way, or should we keep the deal isolated for now?

So here is my question. Should we suggest to both BAT and GWT about a 3 way, or should we keep the deal isolated for now?

I think we should tell BAT that we want to talk to the Germans. After all, we already are friends with BAT, and we don't want them to think that we doublecross them - especially as it is the truth. IIRC BAT also suggested to team up with GWT some time ago, so they will probably like the idea.

As for GWT, we are currently "neutrally friendly". I don't object to telling them about BAT, but it may be too much too soon. They just made an opening, let's see how wide it is before we try to sail a triple alliance through. So I guess: yes, tell them about a 3 way, but don't rush it - they may just be looking for a tech deal.

[ba humbug]Why don't we first ask BAT why they are dragging their feet on Alphabet and if thats the kind of cooperation we can expect from this alliance.

By the way, have the details on how this tech trade is supposed to work out been established?[/ba humbug]

No, because we have decided how to do it, is it going to be beaker for beaker or tech for tech? If it is the former then I need YOU guys to work out the numbers. I just threw another message to BAT asking for a chat. Also they did tell us it would be around turn 70 when they would get alpha.

What i dont understand is how they'll be getting alpha at turn 70 when they dont have writing now and we're on what turn 52/3? thats a pretty good turn around for alpha when you conisder how long theyve been taking on writing...

Well they clearly have been getting other techs in the mean time and now we are in last place and trying to figure out a way to waste 20 turns researching something we don't need until BAT can trade us the techs we really want.

Metal casting seems a logical choice to my mind.

Some of the techs we are waiting to research (maybe we can get with them for a more compleat list) because we are expecting to get them in trade are: Pottery (119), Mysticism (74), Meditation (119), Writing (179), and Alphabet (448). In exchange we have Iron working (299).

As a result we are also holding off on cottages and obelisks.

I’d like them to offer open borders as soon as they get writing so that we can look around and better judge their capabilities for ourselves. I’d also like them to offer us a missionary (we can build a galley to get him home) which can be of some benefit to them as well.

I am going to arrange a chat with GTW and BAT seperate, see what they offer seperatly.

Id definatly prefer for them not to have a missionary in our lands, just because we're sure now we want to be allies with them doesnt mean we will be in 50/100/150+ turns

OB are an obvious one, they dont have copper yet, not sure why they havnt bothered hooking it up after taking all that extra time to research it.

Dear Nibelungen,

At this point in time my leaders wish to engage in talks about technology trading. Would you like to continue discussions via email or would IRC chat be acceptable?

With best regards,

croxis

So, what do we have that we want to trade?

How about this time we start off by just making individual trades rather than a long term tech alliance?

So with out writing, alphabet, currency or paper the only thing we can trade are cities and Christmas cheer. :crazyeye:

Germans are known for their beer.

That's what I ment, Christmas beer

Resources?

And what exactly is our deal with BAT? A one time tech exchange (which techs?) or more?

supposidly it was a long term friednship, the details of which havent been worked out. I'm trying to get ahold of them again.

...and resources. I ment that too, although a trade route will probably take a while on this map.

We have made a tech alliance with BAT that they will get Alphabet and we will get Iron Working then exchange them somehow. We are still trying to decide if we just exchange all our techs and stick together 'till the end or swap with equal beakers and be able to walk away if we find some one better.

i say the latter at this point

Thanks for the replies. I was under the impression that it was more than just a tech swap.

So let's compare research. We discovered Agri (89), Sailing (149), Mining (74), BW (179), and a good portion of IW (about 250 I guess): total is about 740.

It looks like BAT researched Poly (149), Mining (74), BW (179), AH (149) or Wheel & Pottery (89+119), and is working on Writing (179): total is about 730 or 790, depending on which path they took.

To really do this right, I think you have to calculate the discounts you get for knowing prereq techs, but at least it seems possible that they still haven't finished writing, especially if they researched another tech somewhere.

I think it would be nice to find out what BAT has researched, if only because we need to decide what to research next. And of course we should hammer out exactly what the tech deal involves. It seem we can only supply IW and Agri at this point. The value of their techs (say, AH + Writing + Alpha) would be much higher. OTOH, we should get the better deal because they are "blocking" the worker techs to us.

I was under the impression of the same thing, however I do agree we should stick to one deal tech swapping as of now. I'll get the list if I can and I will probably cough up the same.

I do think they are going for writing to get open borders first so they can reach COG.

I'm thinking we dont want to be allies with BAT, but will leave it at that for now. Not too sure really.

W00T

Dear croxis, dear thunderfalls!

Yes, our team wishes to continue discussions via email at this moment.

Regarding the technology trade, we can tell you that we want to research into the direction of iron working. Maybe this information will help you with your internal discussions.

We are hoping to hear from you soon.

With best regards,

bratscher, ambassador of the Nibelungen


Its late and I don't remember, but we have IW right? Yo prez and domestic and you guyz, come up with a list of techs you are most interested in. No no nukes are too far down the road.

We're close enough to IW that it we might as well say we do have it.

mysticism and pottery perhaps?

I think we can tell them that we almost have IW, and that it would be more beneficial if they researched something else.

Can we send them on the path to monarchy? I would rather research pottery ourselves, for cottages and granaries. Waiting for BAT to get Alpha will take very long it seems, and I would not like to wait for that.

That's true, BAT is realy thaking a lot of time to research Alphabet, maybe we could ask them to do Metal Casting? Or head for Feudalism?

we're heading towards MC next, better send them on the monarchy path.

IW in 2 i believe

Bloody A, I responded to every one of their emails

Hi,

We are really confused by your proposition. After 2messages without any answer, we did not expect any more contact from your civilization. Consequently, before taking the internal decision to come to a new meeting, our team members would like to know more precisely your situation and your position about our cooperation.

Holocanthe for BAT

Hmm, apologise for any confusion caused from lack of e-mail, send them the e-mails we recieved and the replies for them in a word package or something similar.

Explain to them we should be getting iron working in the upcoming turns as well as a new city and that we will be expecting alphabet soon or at the very least writing (in a nice way of course) :)

This is silly... why didn't they mention this issue in one of their messages then? Anyway, it is not something to get so upset about, it sounds like they don't (want to) trust us and are looking for a reason to get out of the tech deal.

Factually, all I could find is that:
1) BAT is sending us messages from various accounts, this is very confusing. Do they have a specific account where we should send our replies?
2) Apparently our Oct 30 message to them bounced, and on Nov 10 we sent a message to someone at BAT rather than to their team email. Also, we are getting a lot of out-of-office replies from them. This is hardly our fault...

I think we could simply reply that we are not aware of unanswered emails, and that we always stick to our deals. We simply want to know where they stand research-wise, that's all.

Keep up the nice nice though croxis, dont give away emotion :)

Can our UN representative charge them with crimes against reasonableness?

Morning/Afternoon/Evening,

You are just in luck! We will be finishing iron working in only a matter of turns. We are looking for techs that lead to monarchy. Do your great scientists have such knowledge?

croxis
Fanatics Dude
And I sent this to bat


Greetings,

We looked over our records and confirmed that we have responded to every message. We have responded to a message on October 30th, which bounced with out me knowing it, to that I apologize. We have received an email from one of your members which I responded to on the 10th of November to which there was no response. We had assumed you wanted no more contact with us. I strongly suggest for further contact we keep communication to the team emails only to prevent any further mishaps.

We very much regret this failure at communication between our teams. We do wish to pursue and continue a relationship of friendship. Our team looks forward to your reply.

croxis
Fanatica Foreign Minister

Mail delivery failure :(

ok resent, if people do notice delivery fails dont hesitate to re-send them yourselves :)

i got another back, but i did mail it to two locations so at least one got through.

We lost power, along with 300,000 others, in a somewhat serious windstorm last night, it may be a few days before it is restored to my home due to my somewhat rural location. I may be out for a couple days. I'm leaving the keys to my commune to the prez. The women are up for grabs too. Free love and all that ;)

Aaand we have power back

welcome back then, i can safely say i did little :)

Bloody a, I just wanna slap BAT.

Dear Croxis, Dear Fanatic team

We have received your message dated from December 10.

We sent a message to your team on october the 31, then a new message
requesting a chat, on november the 8. please find hereafter a copy of
these 2 messages.

As we had no answer from your part and at the same time you met GWT
team, we deduced you preferred an alliance with this team.

That's why we are really suprised now. To be honest, part of our team
still has some doubts. We discussed much in our team, which explains
time taken to answer you.

But the most important is still to have good relations with our
neighbors, so we will be glad to make exchanges with you as soon as
possible.

Bat team


Copy of the 2 old messages :

Dear CFC

We have just met also GWT.

What do you think about the idea to make an alliance with GWT team. Such
alliance could be easier to realize because we already know each other.

If you think yourselves too much engage with COG, we respect that and we
will wait to meet them.


Hi,

Efficient discussions are difficult with this type of short messages,
and we would like to clarify the diplomatic situation (particularly with
GWT and COG), so we propose to organize a new meeting. If you agree with
this idee, please send us as soon as possible your disponibility.

*shakes fist rapidly*

I am gonna did up our two responces and send them to every single email I have for them.

Fired off an email to COG to see if they wanted to trade anything. I dunno if they have alpha or not, but it is a good bluff on our part.

Well, if they want to have friendly relations they have a really annoying way of saying it.

The best defense is offense, so maybe we should point out, somewhat indignantly, that our emails to them keep bouncing back with delivery failures and out-of-office replies. I don't like the way they are trying to put the blame on us, I don't like the good cop-bad cop talk about certain distrustful elements in their team, and IMO we shouldn't have to defend our actions among friends against silly accusations of this kind.

Reading between the lines, their reply seems to imply that they are not allied with GWT, but would like to be :).
Or they could try to use this self-made "crisis" to get rid of us and kiss up with another team or even a pair of teams :(.

I would caution about reading too much into it. None of them are native English speakers so it is possible that subtle nuances are artificial or loss. But I agree, this is far more work than it should be. I want to complete the alpha/iw trade and let that be that. IF they wish to continue any kind of relationship with us I will, tactfully, shift the workload to them.

Lets just forget about it now. Even if they decide to go for alphabet its still like two techs away and who can say what kind of mood they will be in by then. Basically we are starting from scratch with BAT and I don't think its a real big loss.

That sounds good, croxis.

I would prefer not to be left without any close friends, and maybe this is all just a minor hiccup, so as far as our long term relations are concerned, let's give BAT the benefit of the doubt for a while.

Damn French.

;)

Here is an update from GWT:
Dear croxis, dear thunderfalls!

Many thanks for the message that you finished researching iron working. It would be very nice if we could exchange this technology now, but at this moment we do not have the possibility. We currently do not have the knowledge how to scribble strange symbols to exchange technologies this way.

Unfortunately, we have to much jungle in our homelands and we probably can't wait to cut these trees down until we got the alphabet. So we think we have to research iron working on our own. Maybe we can profit a bit about your work as a first researcher.

You also asked about technologies leading to monarchy. Until now, we have mysticism and meditation.

We are looking forward to hear from you.

With best regards,

bratscher, ambassador of the Nibelungen.

As far as the BAT thing goes, be polite but make it absolutely clear that the problem is not at our end. It is ridiculous that they don't seem to have a central contact point working.

Also make it clear that we have lived up to our end of the deal and that they should get there backsides into gear and live up to theres. If they hadn't been costantly going off and research other branches they would have alphabet around now, yet they don't have writing. I think we should seriously consider giving them a deadline, we can't be here waiting for them forever.

Indeed, I favor a bold letter to BAT, hitting all of Robi D's points.

that is my plan next reply, I will put up a draft of my letter for discussion when the time comes.

Some quotes from the chats might be good too. 4 members of thier team were present when we made these deals (Abukhir - foreign minister, holocanthe - president, f.humblot and Sir). Abukhir refered to this agreement as an alliance.

They do say they must take this back to their team, but they don't seem to have much doubt durring the chat.:rolleyes: And I notice the two messages we missed didn't have anything to do with this deal.

[13:30] abukhir: We are going to search "élevage" (we are searching in english...)
[13:30] RegentMan: Leverage? My guess...
[13:30] abukhir: sheaperling ?
[13:31] David: farming
[13:31] abukhir: that discover horses
[13:31] abukhir: ok, farming
[13:31] RegentMan: Animal husbandry.
[13:31] David: oh, animal husbandry
[13:31] abukhir: ok for animal husbandry
[13:31] abukhir: after that we can go directly to writing
[13:32] RegentMan: How many turns do you expect it to take?
[13:32] David: this is a good point to start talking about the technologies
[13:32] RegentMan: The sooner we get to alphabet, the better.
[13:32] abukhir: It's clear !
[13:32] abukhir: but the way is long
[13:33] abukhir: we have great discussions about time to find alphabet
[13:33] abukhir: we think it would be quicker if we meet other teams...
[13:33] RegentMan: How so? I didn't think discovery reduced research times.
[13:34] abukhir: if another team has this science, you need less science points
[13:34] RegentMan: Civ III, yes. Civ IV ???
[13:34] RegentMan: Hmm, okay.
[13:34] abukhir: yes on civ IV...
[13:34] holocanthe: civ 4 too
[13:36] abukhir: we have an estimation : we should find around turn 60 or 65 the alphabet
[13:36] abukhir: it's not yet clear
[13:36] David: so in about 30 turns
[13:36] RegentMan: Well, at least you have an estimation.
[13:36] abukhir: around that, yes
[13:36] abukhir: but it's very difficult to estimate clearly
[13:37] David: of cource, i think we need to decide which is more important first, you meeting cog or us trading techs
[13:38] abukhir: well, the 2 will go together (writing is just before alphabet)
[13:38] RegentMan: True.
[13:38] RegentMan: Open borders will allow them to definetly meet COG.
[13:38] RegentMan: But I'm certain there's another way to them, to our east.
[13:38] abukhir: And for their part, where are they going, on research ?
[13:39] abukhir: do you have an idea ?
[13:39] abukhir: And for you ? lol
[13:39] David: last i checked they did not talk to us about it
[13:39] RegentMan: They are going for the wheel.
[13:39] David: well there you ahve it
[13:40] RegentMan: COG is also building a settler in their capital right now.
[13:40] abukhir: Wow, have they a worker ??
[13:41] RegentMan: We don't think so.
[13:41] abukhir: it's a quick beginning...
[13:41] abukhir: or they would be at 1 in population
[13:41] RegentMan: Maybe they don't have copper and are freaking out.
[13:42] abukhir: Where are you for iron working
[13:42] RegentMan: As you know, we just finished sailing. We were planning on grabbing agriculture, then iron working.
[13:42] David: we are going for agriculture first, then iw after
[13:43] abukhir: So it would be when ?
[13:43] abukhir: just to have an idea
[13:43] David: 5 for agri, and about 20 after that for iw
[13:43] abukhir: well, it would be around the same...
[13:43] abukhir: maybe a bit late for us...
[13:44] RegentMan: We can take the time to get our tech swaps taken care of. Are we going to do a straight swap once you have alphabet?
[13:44] David: or are we going to work it out so we trade the same amount of beakers?
[13:45] abukhir: I think, yes !
[13:45] abukhir: yes to the exchange quickly
[13:45] RegentMan: Because I see us being much more successful if we just gift each other the techs as soon as we research them.
[13:45] abukhir: we are ok for that
[13:46] David: I agree with, RegentMan, but we should talk to our other team mates about that first
[13:46] RegentMan: Of course, it's just my opinion. Some on our team want to trade beaker for beaker.
[13:46] RegentMan: So yes, a team discussion is necessary.
[13:46] abukhir: Of course, the same for us
[13:47] abukhir: but the principle would be to exchange when we have a new tech
[13:47] abukhir: and to have discussions to search well...
[13:47] RegentMan: We would have to plan our routes to make sure one party isn't researching all of the expensive techs.
[13:47] abukhir: But without any other trading with other team (not in the alliance)

I looked over the turn tracker and put together this time line:

Chat 1 Aug 15 turn 15 or so.
Chat 2 Sept 28 turn 31
BAT discovers Animal Husbandry Oct 23 turn 40
1st missed message Oct 31 turn 43
2nd missed message Nov 8 turn 44

They were fine with the chat deal for a month and so should have started writing on turn 40 but waited 3 turns before attempting to tell us they were not going to keep their word.

If they are trying to find a contrived way of backing out then there must be a reason, and the only possible reason would be that they think they can be better off with someone else. We should be able to work out who they met recently to work out where they are going. If so we can try to undercut them there and leave them on there own.

Has COG met GWT yet? Maybe they're the way to go...

What about sending a message:
"When will you be able to have Alphabet?"
To BAT and GWT, whoever can get it first, will be our ally?

That does sound good.

I think it’s just too early in the game for an alliance with anyone which would also make us automatic enemies with four other teams.

We don't know where these people are, we've hardly had any communications and it is hard to tell yet who will be worth allying with.

I also think that since our own position is hardly enviable at the moment we may come off as a little desperate.

I think we are better off focusing our efforts at home first so we can attract allies, deter aggressors and warrant some respect.

I think it’s just too early in the game for an alliance with anyone which would also make us automatic enemies with four other teams.

We don't know where these people are, we've hardly had any communications and it is hard to tell yet who will be worth allying with.

I also think that since our own position is hardly enviable at the moment we may come off as a little desperate.

I think we are better off focusing our efforts at home first so we can attract allies, deter aggressors and warrant some respect.

That is probably the best stance at this point. Don't want to wait too long however. As long as we can focus on techs that the others don't have we should be well off.

Mighty nice message

Dear croxis, dear thunderfalls!

The Nibelungen wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Best regards,

bratscher, ambassador of the Nibelungen

Its a trick.

I think it doesnt hurt to do the same back :)

maybe to all teams as well?

I think that would be good. We can ge kind during this time of the year and then eliminate teams when we want to.

Woah mailbox is busy:

We are sorry for delays in our answer and for doubts appearing in our
messages. We agree to a MSN meeting, as communication will be easier and
faster. We can meet as usual around 21h GMT (between 20h and 22h GMT), but
as for most people, it will be difficult around Christmas and new year day.

Do not hesitate to propose a date, we will answer as quicly as possible.

Team BAT

Bat seems to get their act together a little bit. I am at work until 22 GMT and wont get home until 23ish, so any weekday chats will have to be run by someone else. I will be moving out of my parents the next weekend so I wont be able to attend during those times either. Any volunteers?
I suggest doing a tech trade but not enter anything binding.



Now here is something interesting

Dear people of CFC,

as we have not heard anything from your industrious nation, I am bypassing our ambassador with this message as we have not heard from him in recent times. Last he mentioned that he tried to contact your ambassador but failed to establish a working communication (OOC: he said none of his emails got a reply, which were sent in November).
We have heard from our friends at BAT that you also showed interest in technological exchanges (OOC: such messages never arrived here) and we are surely willing to discuss such a possibility. We should be in a position to teach each other what we know rather soon, so if you are still interested and if our research is complementary, we would welcome such an exchange.

On another note, we have seen your warrior scout moving up the desert landbridge to the north. If he continued, he will in time get into the vicinity of our lands. We have to advise you that due to our unique artisanship, such a scout could become trapped in our lands when our influence expands. We can inform you again once he is in danger of that happening. (OOC: due to borders expansion, you unit could become trapped and useless; if you want, we can avoid that)

And lastly, if you are interested in any other treaties, as maybe establishing an official border region or signing a non-aggression pact to concentrate on both our prosperity instead, we are also interested in that.
Regards

Lucky
Gamecatcher Alliance

P.S. and OOC (out of character):
I am unsure as to what messages have been sent and exchanged between both our ambassadors, but all the team ever got were the initial greetings ("scout with big glasses"). As it has been a while since then, it seems that a lack of action and effort on behalf of both our ambassadors has led to the current lack of communication. As said, recently anarchy informed us that he got nothing from you on his attempts, that is why I am trying to achieve contact now. All official communication should be directed at GCteam@gamecatcher.net (although mails have been lost as spam as well, so if you don't get a reply, try again, maybe from a different sender).
Another thing is that our dear friends BAT have informed us, that you seem to think that some kind of old animosities exist between us. I would guess you are referring to the years gone PtW ISDG. I can assure that we treat all these things as games (unlike some other individuals), and that no such ill feelings exist on our part. We hope the same is true for you (as in your case hardly anyone from the PtW team is left anyway) and that we can concentrate on playing the game and make both our teams prosper and triumph instead of childish bickering decreasing both our teams chances to survive this round. If you need to clear anything up on this issue, feel free to contact us directly. We would prefer ingame cooperation a lot more though.


I am going to muse on this for a bit and welcome all of your input.

Also, we got the save, it might be marked as read.

I'm up for tech trading all around.

If GCA can trade techs they can certainly give Open Borders so getting stuck shouldn't be that big of deal.

I wonder what else BAT has been saying about us.

I will send a reply to them to explain the situation.

I dislike how BAT has been chatting about us tbh but its good to see they've got their act in gear :)

I dislike how BAT has been chatting about us tbh but its good to see they've got their act in gear :)
I'm a bit miffed, actually. You don't tell GCA that CFC might have some worries about GCA-aggression when CFC is your ally!

Since BAT and GCA might appear closer than just contact, I wonder why BAT didn't tell us this. We told them about COG and GWT, yet they leave GCA out come their turn for sharing?

A black mark for BAT, in my book. Be wary. GCA might just want us to stop exploring up there with the border expansion excuse.

I do like the non-aggression pact, though.

I am still a bit worried about the GCAers themselves.

Perhaps we are next to an undefended GCA city? :D

It is interesting that both COG and GCA are suddenly turning to us for cooperation. I don't know what to make of it.

Question: did GCA send us messages and did we reply? I cannot find any messages from GCA in our gmail box, and our last message to them seems to be from Oct 23. The last one before that was in september.

Yes, there is a recent one from lucky.

Again, I am unavailable for chat, any officer wants to lead the chat? If so just give me a time.

Im away till the 3rd really, CH?

Well it will depend upon what time we can work out, because i will need some back up since i do not actually have the game woking, so it is important that someone else is with me.
How does 4pm GMT Friday sound?

EDIT. if there is no disagreement, then can someone please send a message to them about the proposed time.

Im a good 200 miles from my comp then so i can't attend, RM, 1889???

4:00pm Friday --> 8:00am Friday for me. I'll have to be at work. :( If it was three or four hours later, I could be there.

I also can't chat and don't understand why these things can't be done by email. If they really had something to say they could have typed it and we could have exchanged numerous emails by now.

Dear Fanaticans,

the reply below was received just fine, our team address has always worked so far.

The Gamecatcher Alliance also wishes you happy holidays, even if it is rather unclear what exactly everyone seems to be celebrating (no Christianity). ;)
We are always open for a chat, however our internationality does restrict our times of availability rather heavily. That is why we prefer to keep communication on the email level.
If you want a chat, just suggest a place and time (MSN might be the quickest way) and we will see whether we have someone who can attend. Afternoons and evenings GMT are usually the best option.
Regards

Gamecatcher Alliance

New save too!

How about 22:00 GMT on next Friday? And obviously next year.

I can't make it but I will let BAT know if that time is good with everyone else.

That's the fifth? 22:00 GMT --> 2:00pm for me. At this moment, I can probably make it. Is it for BAT or GCA?

That would be GCA.

I have sent an email about that time.

Oh, I was talking about meeting up with BAT

A bit unrelated, but foreign nonetheless:
1640 BC (turn 60) on to the completers of Stonehenge. ;)
CBR has been busy.

While I do not think a formal alliance with any team will be of much use to us now I do think we should make a concerted effort to make friends with everyone. While we do not yet have the ability to make any deals in game we should none the less make frequent and friendly contact with other teams, without being annoying. Just keeping ourselves in their minds as friendly will go a long way toward preventing a conspiracy against us.

Dear Batracheros,

While our past dealings held much promise we can no longer wait for you to research Alphabet and so are begining to research the techs needed for it. I do hope that we can return to the spirit of friendliness and trust that we shared not to long ago. Are you still interested in open borders or resource trading? Shall we try again to coordinate research; we still have Iron Working available for trade?

May we grow in mutual prosperity,
Team CFC

Dear Yellow Destiny,

We are happy to receive your friendly greeting. Without communication what else can there be but mistrust and suspicion, so we apologize for our poor past attempts and hope that this exchange may spark a renewed effort on both our parts.

A promising first step would be a border agreement and non-aggression pact just as you propose. These issues are being discussed now and we hope to propose a formal treaty soon.

Farewell,
Team CFC

Dear Nibelungen,

We hope that you will accept our tardy seasons greetings and hope that the new year will bring many more pleasant exchanges for us both.

Happy New Years,
Team CFC

Dear COG,

We hope that you will accept our tardy seasons greetings and hope that the new year will bring many more pleasant exchanges for us both.

Happy New Years,
Team CFC

Please suggest any changes or improvements to the above messages.

Dear Yellow Destiny,

We are happy to receive your friendly greeting. Without communication what else can there be but mistrust and suspicion, so we apologies for our anemic past attempts and hope that this exchange may spark a renewed effort on both our parts.

A promising first step would be a border agreement and non-aggression pact just as you propose. These issues are being discussed now and we hope to propose a formal treaty soon.

Farewell,
Team CFC

We apologize

anemic?
Anemic: Relating to anemia, the condition of having less than the normal number of red blood cells or less than the normal quantity of hemoglobin in the blood.

We might want to have something easier :p

"poor" instead of "anemic".

anemic is sorta right but they may not get the intended meaning since they do not speak common "incorrect English". ( what word am I looking for..colloquial english)

Thank you, fixed.

The BAT one, i think should be phrased more like 'we can no longer wait for you to finish researching alphabet so we are beginning to research the techs needed for it'

If they think we already have all the techs and the techs from the bottom of the tree then they may be unwilling to trade in the future.

BAT does want to resume talks however, we prolly can still work one tech deal out of them.

anemic is sorta right but they may not get the intended meaning since they do not speak common "incorrect English". ( what word am I looking for..colloquial english)

Informal?

I think our messages should be as easy and grammatically correct as possible, as there are many not native speakers in this game, like me :p.

Dear Batracheros,

While our past dealings held much promise we can no longer wait for you to research Alphabet and so are begining to research the techs needed for it. I do hope that we can return to the spirit of friendliness and trust that we shared not to long ago. Are you still interested in open borders or resource trading? Shall we try again to coordinate research; we still have Iron Working available for trade?

I fear we are jumping to concusions here. Why not hear them out on what they are researching and what they have researched sofar, before we throw it in their face? There is no need to tell them that we can no longer wait, it is unnecessarily hostile and probably slams the door on future cooperation. Also, this will be seen by BAT as deal-breaking - whatever that deal is, this is still unclear to me.

Dear Yellow Destiny,

We are happy to receive your friendly greeting. Without communication what else can there be but mistrust and suspicion, so we apologize for our poor past attempts and hope that this exchange may spark a renewed effort on both our parts.

A promising first step would be a border agreement and non-aggression pact just as you propose. These issues are being discussed now and we hope to propose a formal treaty soon.


I would not mention the words "mistrust" and "suspicion" - they will read between the lines. Do we want to take the initiative on the treaty? With the letter phrased like this, they will wait for our proposal. Alternatively, we could say we're interested and invite them to provide more details.
Apologies for trivia make us look timid or frightened. And btw, "first step" to what?

Dear Nibelungen,

We hope that you will accept our tardy seasons greetings and hope that the new year will bring many more pleasant exchanges for us both.


A bit timid ("hope", "tardy"), and lacking in content - if I were on their team I would wonder why we received this message. Do we not want to send them something more substantial? GWT spoke about tech trades lately, do we wish to enter negotiations on that? Or perhaps a nonaggression treaty.

Same for COG.

I fear we are jumping to concusions here. Why not hear them out on what they are researching and what they have researched sofar, before we throw it in their face? There is no need to tell them that we can no longer wait, it is unnecessarily hostile and probably slams the door on future cooperation. Also, this will be seen by BAT as deal-breaking - whatever that deal is, this is still unclear to me.
We finish Pottery next turn and will move on to writing. If they have some offer to make we're telling them we will trade Iron, but nobody can trade techs yet because they broke the deal long ago and I'm sick of waiting for them now.

I would not mention the words "mistrust" and "suspicion" - they will read between the lines. Do we want to take the initiative on the treaty? With the letter phrased like this, they will wait for our proposal. Alternatively, we could say we're interested and invite them to provide more details.
Apologies for trivia make us look timid or frightened. And btw, "first step" to what?
I'll take that line out but the message looks too short. I think its a good opportunity for us if we take the lead with the treaty. I don't mind kissing up a little bit, their OOC comments about the PTW DG were quite humble. It is a first step toward tricking them into trusting us, but we'll keep that to ourselves for now.

A bit timid ("hope", "tardy"), and lacking in content - if I were on their team I would wonder why we received this message. Do we not want to send them something more substantial? GWT spoke about tech trades lately, do we wish to enter negotiations on that? Or perhaps a nonaggression treaty.

Same for COG.
Yes these messages are lame and in need of much improvment. Offering COG a non-aggression treaty is a great idea (or even better just a border agreement), but doesn't make much sense for GWT and talking to about tech trades so far from alphabet annoys me.

We finish Pottery next turn and will move on to writing. If they have some offer to make we're telling them we will trade Iron, but nobody can trade techs yet because they broke the deal long ago and I'm sick of waiting for them now.
I agree that BAT is probably not going to Alpha by the shortest path. Quite understandably, as it is much better from their POV to go for pottery first, and perhaps even a few other techs. But what deal did they break? All I can find is a rather vague agreement in a chat that we will swap techs when BAT discovers Alpha. It is unclear which techs will be swapped, or when this will be done (BAT has given timelines of their research but no real commitments). Similarly, for research paths they have stated their intent, but no firm commitment. Our case would be stronger if there was an actual treaty in place, but there is none as far as I can find.

In any case, IMO we should not rub BAT the wrong way for no good reason. BAT may still prove useful to us. How about a letter along these lines:


dear friends of BAT,

happy new year blabla.

We would like to discuss research plans with you. CFC's scientists have worked very hard lately and are about to uncover the secrets of pottery. We would of course be happy to share this technology with you, if you wish - of course this requires knowledge of the Alphabet. In our forums we are discussing what to research next, and your progress plays an important part in this. From the chats between our two nations we recall that you were planning to discover Alphabet around this time. Could you tell us how this research is progressing? Are you researching Alphabet already, and can you give us an updated ETA?

Another subject that has crossed our mind is the signing of open borders. Would you be interested in that?

closing sentence blabla


Feel free to use/edit/discard etc. The purpose of the message is to hear them out on their progress, both in the direction of Writing/Alphabet and in the direction of pottery. If they respond that they have writing, then we can ask for OB and see what happens. If they respond that they don't have writing, then we can act up, or simply say that we will start researching Writing "because we need libraries soon".

I'll take that line out but the message looks too short. I think its a good opportunity for us if we take the lead with the treaty. I don't mind kissing up a little bit, their OOC comments about the PTW DG were quite humble. It is a first step toward tricking them into trusting us, but we'll keep that to ourselves for now. I agree it's a good opportunity. So perhaps we should discuss what we want in this treaty :). I think a 50 turn peace would be beneficial to us. A land division agreement (i.e., no settling or large armies on the other side of a demarcation line) with the line running somewhere through the isthmus connecting our lands would be great, and would definitely be a concession from CGA to us. We can lengthen the message by adding a vague statement on such ideas, if our team can agree on this.


Yes these messages are lame and in need of much improvment. Offering COG a non-aggression treaty is a great idea (or even better just a border agreement), but doesn't make much sense for GWT and talking to about tech trades so far from alphabet annoys me.

What do you mean by a border agreement? OB? We could add that or a peace treaty to give the messages more substance.
I agree tech treaties are not that useful at this stage. Although we could talk about a division of research, just to prepare the stage for trading. It seems GWT wants to go IW now, that's too bad. Maybe we can prevent COG from doing the same, and send them towards Monarchy?

Dear Croxis, dear CFC-Team!

The Bat team wish you a Happy New Year!

We hope that our two teams will qualify themselves together for the final.

Best regards,

BAT-Team

No internet for a week and so much to catch up on, I'll throw in my input once I get the real life important stuff caught up

Ok, here is my draft based on snippits from the lot of ya, ok so it is mostlyzyxy:

Dear Batracheros,

We would like to discuss research plans with you. CFC's scientists have worked very hard lately and are about to uncover the secrets of pottery. We would of course be happy to share this technology with you, if you wish - of course this requires knowledge of the Alphabet. We are discussing what to research next, and your progress plays an important part in this. From the chats between our two nations we recall that you were planning to discover Alphabet around this time.

We are excited to trade technologies with you, however the delay we experienced these past few weeks is increasing the risk that much of our research will overlap and be wasted. Could you tell us how this research is progressing? Are you researching Alphabet already, and can you give us an updated ETA?

May we grow in mutual prosperity,
Team CFC



Now to GCA

Dear Yellow Destiny,

We are happy to receive your friendly greeting. We apologize for our past attempts and hope that this exchange may spark a renewed effort on both our parts.

A promising first step would be a border agreement and non-aggression pact that you propose. These issues are being discussed now and we would love to listen to your ideas of the specifics of the treaty.

Farewell,
Team CFC



GWT have stated that they do not have alphabet yet, I am quite sure they are still interested in tech trading. I sent out a message to cog a few weeks ago seeking the possibility of a tech trade to no answer.


Dear COG,

We hope that you will accept our tardy seasons greetings and hope that the new year will bring many more pleasant exchanges for us both. To encourage future friendship may we propose a non aggression pack and define settlement borders?

Happy New Years,
Team CFC


And just for my records:
Dear Nibelungen,

We hope that you will accept our tardy seasons greetings and hope that the new year will bring many more pleasant exchanges for us both.

Happy New Years,
Team CFC

Great, that covers everything. Lets fire those babies off. Also it may be a good idea to use Google docs (the link is at the top left of the page when you log into the team gmail account) to keep track of our diplomatic exchanges because searching through these threads is not so convenient.

We should have a few people available on Friday night, so yes, let us make this our chat date.
And the place?

so apparantly this is at 22.00GMT, whos gonna be able to attend?

How about we create a stickied thread where teh current foreign minister or president can post our deals. That way we can update it as we go. NO ONE else post their its just a info thread. If others post there we can get a mod to delete the post.

*shrug* im not totally sure who is foreign minister right now- this probably aint that helpfull for the other teams.

geesh, we sure look like a bunhc of noobs.

Mr president..how about you email them next time your in gmail for a save. simply reply back to who send it and include a message when you send on the next save. Kills 2 of the replies.

I'm still FM until the next turn, I finally have internets tubes at my new apartment, I will fire off the emails when we get back.

We so need a wiki.

Wait... gimme a couple more hours for that one.

Looks ok to me, except for


Dear Yellow Destiny,

We are happy to receive your friendly greeting. We apologize for our past attempts and hope that this exchange may spark a renewed effort on both our parts.

A promising first step would be a border agreement and non-aggression pact that you propose. These issues are being discussed now and we would love to listen to your ideas of the specifics of the treaty.

Farewell,
Team CFC


It is unclear what we are apologizing for. Perhaps you can replace this line by something like "If we failed to reply to your messages then we apologize for that. We hope that this exchange...", or something in better English.

Btw, we now leave the initiative for a pact with GCA again.

"Sorry for our past poor attempts at communication."

Having the initiative is good.

We should have a few people available on Friday night, so yes, let us make this our chat date.
And the place?

Lucky

MSN I assume? I responded saying we prefer msn, but IRC is available as well. I will NOT be able to check for a response at work nor attend the meeting. I'll leave it up to classical hero to finish setting it up. The rest of the emails have been sent, except for Nibelungen because for the life of me I can not remember which team they are.

wiki is going online now here: http://www.croxis.net/isdg.cfc.html

Yes, it is secure as long as no one shares it or links to it outside of these forums

nope nope, not yet, stupid backend server poo poo

wiki is going online now here: http://www.croxis.net/isdg.cfc.html

Yes, it is secure as long as no one shares it or links to it outside of these forums

nope nope, not yet, stupid backend server poo poo


WHY are we doing this....we have a perfectly good secure forum here. Besides that by posting a thread and getting a stickey everyone wont have to find teh link to go to this new site.

Another reason is if you leave or get out of contact ..we can not add or modify it. If its here we can add to it modify it.

WE need to stop trying to be "cute" and just play the game and cut out the extra stuff like this that wont help us.

STILL another reason...by putting info outside of this forum, it allows a loop hole in the "sportsmanship" clause we agreed to. IF someone would happen to find it..they can claim they stubbled upon the info, where as if the info is only here...there is no accidental finding..they did it on purpose.

This private chat room thing and this wiki site are horrible time wasting ideas. YES its your time to waste but if perhaps emails and contact with other teams would have received as much attention we woudlnt scrambling to send "opps sorry we have contacted you " emails.

/rant off.

Fine. I give up. You do it all. I resign effective immediately.

No need to resign, I think your term just ended anyway. :) Also with that batch of emails you have just set the tone for our renewed foreign policy.

However if the Wiki or whatever you were doing is not happening now I'm going to keep track of diplo in a Goodle doc because its easier for me and google better be secure because that were we get all our diplo anyway.

That was a litttle harsh, Rob. The wiki is not a bad idea to keep everything in one place - which is obviously neccessary considering the past few weeks, but it DOES pose a security threat. If the google doc is a good way, then let's use that, because we do need some tool to keep on top of things.

I didnt mean to it be harsh...my whole point is why not just keep all our info in a thread here. We have a forum dedicated to our team why go create something else. In addition, the team members you start with here may not finish. People leave, lose computer access and other things so if its external we are at the whim of who ever is the care taker.

Again..whats is so hard to have a thread that says...
team X...non aggresssion till turn 250.
team y...butt heads...kill soon.

Any official can then add to it and with our mods we can delete and cut any extra posts. Its in one spot every one sees it even if we all leave and a new group comes in.

btw GCA this turn can have OB, i would like to propose a deal of OB through each others territory. in this deal we should stipulate that only one unit may travel through.

Are we prepared to show GCA our lands?

OB is the only way for us to go north, so I'm ready.

I set up the Google Docs with our last messages only, maybe I'll fill in some of our past exchanges when i get time.

Also our email to BAT was returned "Mailbox unavailabe" I forwarded it again anyway though.

I would not trust the GCAers with the map of our lands :hmm:.

They have already seen most of it. Their scout took a stroll through a few centuries ago.

CivG, why should we not have OBs with GCA? They learn what resources we have and what our land looked like at the time they pass through and they can find out what resources we have just by having a trade route to us. They CANT sneak attack us though.

CivG, why should we not have OBs with GCA?
Based on experiences learned from the First Intersite Demogame (Based on PTW IIRC), They back stabbed us. Hesse why I hold a air of suspicion on them.


They learn what resources we have and what our land looked like at the time they pass through and they can find out what resources we have just by having a trade route to us. They CANT sneak attack us though.
I just hope that there would be plans to claim land so the thing that happened in the First Intersite Demogame (based on PTW) would not happen again.

We'd have to weigh up the pros and cons. Do we gain enough by getting to go thru their lands and beyond as opposed to giving them access to ours? I would think so, considering our scout is right there.

So pointing out the obvious,

Ok, MSN is running, added your ambassadors ID, and waiting to be approved or him to come online.
My MSN is frilu@hotmail.com if needed. Still 2h to go.

Lucky


did anyone actually attend?

Noone attended because there was a blackout where I lived and I could not attend. I will explain the situation. I will need other online with me to help with the diplo. I will reschedule for next week.

Email to BAT returned again. Maybe RM should post something in the UN about teams updating the mailling list or providing alternatives.

did anyone actually attend?
1. I don't remember my old MSN thingy
2. I don't want my butt to be picked on by them